The Ringer NFL Show - Week 16 Recap: AFC North Madness, NFC East Sadness, and Packers Freeze Titans | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: December 28, 2020

Kevin and Nora dissect a wild Sunday for the AFC North (3:10), pick their Week 16 winners and losers (33:30), run through the Hurry Up (1:15:31), answer listeners' questions (1:17:28), and select their clickbait headlines of the week (1:22:19). Hosts: Kevin Clark and Nora Princiotti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark. Great show today. joined by Noel Prince Audi to discuss AFC North Madness, NFC East Excitement, honest to God, NFC, East excitement, the Packers, Dolphins, and the future of Mitchell Chubisky. Today's episode of the Ringer NFL show and the Ringer podcast Network is brought to you by State Farm.

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helps manage coverage, pay bills, file claims, and more. With a great price and even greater service, State Farm goes from strength to strength. Choose insurance it always brings its A-game. When you want the real deal, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Nora Principi, I don't know what surprises me more if you were to tell me maybe a month ago

that football team versus Philadelphia has been flexed as a win or go home game for the football team into Sunday night football or that I am just amped. I cannot get enough of the idea of a football team do or die Sunday night football game next week. It is the first flex of any kind from the NFC East this season, I think you could say. Amazing point.

Kevin, I'm just sitting here wondering if the Jets will ever lose again. They're getting hot at the right time. I'll say that. December is when you want to play your best football and they're there. How are your holidays? They were lovely. It was just sort of quiet, but I saw my parents. Had a nice time.

Good to hang out with mom and dad. Do you anything good? Yeah. I got a necklace and some earrings that I really wanted. Amazing. What about you? What did you do? I drove and saw my parents outdoors and that was nice too.

It was good. It was good. It was low key, but it's good being in the same state. Not near Jacksonville, obviously, but in the same general vicinity. So it's good. A lot of football today. A lot of football. This was nice. It's nice when things matter.

That's a heavy statement. I know, but that's why it was just like there were meaningful games in every section of the day. And I really enjoyed it. I agree. And I think because we know what this looks like, what the post season looks like. It's been such an abstract mess over the past couple of weeks. And there's been such a debate about who's good from week to week or whatever it is.

And now we get to just know, okay, if this team wins, they're in. Like, it's not, we're not trying to figure out who's good right now. We're not trying to figure out which quarterback performance is real. All we're trying to figure out is what happens these next two weeks. And that, that's, I'm just happy to be at that mile marker, okay? We're going to start with the AFC North because the most interesting stuff that happened. And maybe this is a case we made here. And we got some reader questions later, but whether or not the NFC East is now the most exciting division of football.

But from an interesting standpoint, right now, the AFC North is where it's all happening. So let's quickly go through the playoff scenarios and then we'll get into the games. The first thing is that the Steelers obviously clinched the AFC North on Sunday. They could have done so even with a, even if they had lost on Sunday. If things had broken right, that would have been the strangest. Not only would it be no fans, it would also just be like they didn't play very well. they're wearing the we run the north t-shirts and they lost so it's it's a good thing that they won uh the browns meanwhile will make the playoffs next week if they win or the colts lose to the jaguars

which is we'll get to that a little bit later uh the browns put the stewarders next week by the way the ravens will make the playoffs next week with the win over the bengals which probably happen or they can get in with a colts or brown's loss in week 17 so let's start with the most important game from a, I don't know, I would say from an emotional standpoint, which is Jets 23, Browns 16. As we said, the Browns still controlled her playoff destiny, but this was bad. Baker Mayfield through 53 times, completed 28 past 28 yards. This was 2020. Okay. Baker Mayfield said this after the game. This was 2020 in a nutshell. In 24 hours is what he said. it was a number of players ruled out for COVID, including basically the entire wider

zero depth chart, two linebackers, and two important offensive linemen, including the second best graded player in football in Wyatt Tower. So they were already in a really bad spot here. And I thought, so reading the reports here, Jake Trotter reported this morning that there was a 8.15 a.m. walk through in a parking garage next to the hotel and freezing temperatures to try to get the new starting wide receivers prepared and up to speed. That's not something that happens in football normally. Kevin's D'Fancy said we got a bunch of problem solvers on our staff. It's nothing new. We just have to solve these problems. I tend to think that in the NFL

in Week 16 in the straining season of all time, this was a little too much to overcome. There was some heat in the direction of Kevin Stafansky for throwing 53 times. so Dustin Fox said this on Twitter, if you're going to put the blame on anybody, you put it on Kevin's fanci for thrown 53 times in a game where they didn't have any receivers to speak up. I understand that, but that's not from my perspective. Obviously, the Jets were stacking the box. Obviously, the offensive linemen being out was crucial.

The two biggest plays of this game were Baker Mayfield Bumbles, but that's not, I mean, it's all interconnected. This was a nightmare game to play for the Browns. It's 2020. The NFL has said they will not. postponed games for competitive reasons, only for medical reasons. We've seen this time and time again. If a receiving group is out or an offensive line group is out or a defensive back group is out, the NFL does not care as long as it's not a medical issue. If it's a competitive issue,

they do not care. We've seen this too many times to not know that. And the Browns just, again, as Baker Mayfield said, played the most 2020 game. And I understand if you'd be mad about the Browns for losing this game, but I can understand I'm losing it as well. Yeah, I mean, they lost the Jets and I can't believe it. But I think what you're sort of saying here and what I'm inclined to feel like as well is this isn't browning. You know, this isn't necessarily browning in action, even though I think there may be pockets of the state of Ohio that will spontaneously combust if Cleveland wins 10 games a season and somehow misses the playoffs. But they're not there yet. So we'll see.

But even those, even with those receivers. I mean, we've seen how their running game has been the strength of their offense and it's really been the engine for them this year. But some of those receivers are really good blockers. Like Landry is a good blocker. Cadero Hodges is a good blocker. And that in combination with obviously primarily the losses on the offensive line with Wills and Teller, they were really missing what drives that engine or what makes that go. I'm sorry.

I'm absolutely terrible with car analogies and just should not have embarked on this one because I'm not going to be able to land on the plane or part. the car, I guess. But just transportation in general is not your thing. Yeah, it's just, it's really not for me. Loud and clear. Loud and clear, buddy. I think the people understand what I mean. But I don't, I don't want to call this a browns, a sort of browns browns.

I just, it was really, really, really stacked against them. And even though it's the Jets, I mean, the thing that was crazy about this is that I found myself watching this game and kind of feeling like the Jets have some talent. Like, there's just some. little pockets on that roster that I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this season for obvious reasons. But they have some players in the secondary, like Matias Farley, which I'm not even sure I'm pronouncing correctly, which really good. Like they have some guys. I mean, Bechton had a tough matchup because he was playing against Garrett and Olivia Vernon, but he's still

had a good game. We know he's a great player. This game made me feel like, and this is the last two weeks and combination. The Jets are maybe a little bit spicier than we gave them credit for. And I guess that's not really all that, that brave of a thing to say after they've won two games finally. But they have a little bit of spice. I really enjoy working with you. And I respect every take you have.

I am blowing right past the jets are spicy take. It's just right past. I'm not saying that I'm not saying the jets are spicy. I'm just saying that the Jets are The Jets as a whole are not spicy. I'm saying that the Jets have some good players who are valuable pieces to have on a roster that I had spent absolutely zero time

thinking about this this year until the last two weeks. That's all I'm saying. Are you comfortable with that tape? And there's also sort of a Thanos's right thing with Greg Williams here where, listen, you may not have liked Greg Williams' worldview, but man was he effective at getting what needed to be done.

And he was going to get Trevor Lawrence if he stayed. And now that that's been, that's been not, it's not even, they're eliminated from Trevor Lawrence. Here's the horrible thing about it is that if, if,

if what I feel is true and there are some underrated jets here. Yeah. Then that makes it even worse that they're not going to get Trevor Lawrence. Because if the roster is slightly better than the roster. She just won seven games. Okay.

We don't need to keep talking about the Jets. Actually, I've seen North. A couple more insights here. Number one, worst, there was the worst rough in the pasture call I've seen maybe this year where Fadu Kasi basically grazed Mayfield and got a 15-yard penalty. But I think that it's hard for me to, it's hard for me to glean anything about what we're going to see from the Browns' new playoffs as long as they make it from this game.

Baker Mayfield took full responsibility for this after the game. He took one Zoom question and went on kind of an interesting monologue about how this was on him. He screwed up. You know, he had fumbled at the end. And the reason, by the way, the reason that Kareem Hunt wasn't able to move the ball forward at the end was because the Holy Roller Rule, which is long and complicated, but basically you cannot at the end of the game pick up a fumble or else teams to do that intentionally and all that stuff. It's all very complicated, but it's an old rule. but Kevin Stefansky said he got out-coached. Basically everybody said they got out-executed.

I just kind of think whether it's the drops, the penalties, I mean, so much of this was just a lack of having the depth necessary for a catastrophic event here as far as the roster goes. And I don't think you can necessarily point fingers at the Browns for not being equipped for this. No one's equipped for this. No one is equipped for this specific thing. And I know we can go the LOL Jets route, but the Jets just beat the Rams who weren't dealing with this sort of thing last week. They have some talent. They crushed the draft last year. So if you're asking me if I feel

worse about the Browns than I did yesterday, the answer is not really because this is just, this is the weirdest season of all time. And they got bit by that. So let's, for me, I'd love to have seen them win this and have a better clear picture of their of their playoff of their playoff outlook and all that stuff. But I can't I can't sit here and say Kevin Sopansky, you know, is on the hot seat or whatever because because he choked the game. Didn't happen. I'm sorry.

I thought we, I thought we weren't allowed to acknowledge that the Jets have some talent. You just can't say that they're spicy. I didn't say that the Jets were spicy. The Jets are allowed to be talented. The Jets are allowed to be talented. talented in theory but not in practice. All right. Too existential.

Yeah. All right. Let's move on to the second most ancient game in this division. And it is the Steelers 28, the Colts 24, which I don't know where to begin here. We're going to begin with the fact that Ben Rathesberger, I don't know what to do here. Okay. because six days ago we saw Ben Rathsburg to play one of the most uninspiring listless performances I've ever seen in a half of football. He comes out this week, has similar sort of lethargy to everything he does.

And then all of a sudden, there's the third longest completion he's had in this season. He has a 49.5-yard-air touchdown to Deonti Johnson. he has a dart to jujuju there are huge limitations to his game right now okay you can't use the middle of field deep whatever but he can use the outside he can't use the underneath stuff this is something that's been on passing charts for for weeks i was looking at the passing charts today it's the same thing okay the question here with the depth of the steelers because they had i mean this wasn't just the typical obviously t j wott played great mike hilton played great um Alex highsmith is in for bud Dupree looked great. He had essentially the game winning pressure on an interception. Right. With the talent that that team has, you only need a little tiny bit from Ben

Rathesburg. And I was reading Sean Gentile covers the team. He was basically saying that with an agent quarterback, you know the production and the contributions are going to diminish. The problem with Rathesberger the last couple of weeks is that it diminished to zero. It had diminished to nothing. And now they can start the process of saying, okay, if Rathesberger can give us this in spurts, you have something. Every team with the exception of the chiefs is, is incomplete. And we're going to do a little exercise here later, but which teams can beat which AFC teams. But the Steelers, in theory, can beat any AFC team. I would say including the chiefs, as long as Rathesberger gives them three good shots in a game and connects, in a way that

he did, he did on Sunday. And so I'm a little more encouraged because I just didn't know if Ben Rathesberger still hide this in him. And then you, you combine that with the general, the defense and the Steelers' defense ability to just sort of control what the Colts were doing, especially in the second half. The Colts kind of blew the scam. We'll get to that in a second. But the Colts gave up a season high at five sacks. They really took advantage of the fact that the Colts were playing with two backup offensive linemen. So I'm in on the Steelers a little more than I was at the beginning of the day. Well, and it's interesting.

I mean, I got to spend some more time like you have with Rathlisberger's passing charts, but to me, I don't know that it looked entirely the same here, even though you see some of the same tendencies like working the outsides of the field more often than the middle in this and that holds. But the second half, he was just fundamentally different

than in the first half, but also in the three-game losing streak that they had. Because there were moments when I was watching this later in the game where it just felt like all of a sudden he he just started throwing deeper. And it almost left me feeling like, could you have been doing that the whole time? Like they weren't doing it. And I always assumed it was because he couldn't. But Ben was six of nine for 133 yards and two touchdowns on passes over 10 yards in the second half. And that doesn't mean that he's like throwing deep bomb after deep bomb.

But what happened in the early part of this game was I think what a lot of of people assumed would happen, which was that the Colts, who, you know, have a very good defense, but a defense that mostly plays zone, plays a lot of too high safety, is fairly soft and backed up a lot of the time. They played a little bit more press man and they came down and they just said, okay, well, what you guys have on film, everything is short, everything is quick. And so we're going to try to take that away and you're going to have to get behind the defense that we're throwing at you if you want to win. And the first half it worked. And then the second half, it just seemed like Ben was throwing throws that I didn't know he could still throw.

So it makes me more, it makes me more confused in an odd way about what we just saw for three and a half games versus what they can do going forward. Because again, I just come to a place where I felt like he, he couldn't do that. And now he's still a veteran quarterback. You can turn it on in spurts. So it's, it's not that I think all of their problems are solved. but he was doing things that I did not think that were sort of in the bag for them anymore or that they had to pull out and had at their disposal. So like you, I'm encouraged, but parts of it, I just don't know where that came from really

or why we hadn't been seeing that before. Yeah. And the short accuracy was better today. He was 8 of 14 underneath over the middle of the field and then three of three to the left, 7 and 10 on the on the right. when he did not throw past 20 yards in the middle of the field, as we said, he threw two shots in the intermediate over the middle of the field. But first of all, the Colts did not have much of a pass rush today. And so I think that there's something to monitor if then gets more pressure.

I think Rockies Sin needs to go into temporary retirement after getting torched by Deontay Johnson like that. And I would say, you know, when I talked to Kevin Colbert at the end of the season, he mentioned Deontay Johnson as someone where the chemistry with. Ben is going to take a little bit because of just the fact that Ben was out last year and the fact that obviously there's no, no significant training camp, all that stuff, no real, you know, limited practice, whatever, whatever you want to call it, that Deonti Johnson is someone where that will get better later in the season. Because of the limitations of Ben, I've thought that there was going to be a time. Deonton Johnson has played well this year, especially in early in season.

It's not like you, you know, came out of nowhere or whatever. But I could see more Deonti Johnson-type games as we get into James. anywhere because I think they really like him. I think that, you know, his, his feed, I saw some stats that he was just, you know, one of the fastest routes run today. So I think that there's something there. And again, you don't need a lot. That's it. Like you do this is, we're going to have this with almost every team in the playoffs. There might be a unit where you only need them to make one, two or three plays. And Ben Rathesberger is that, that for the, the Steelers. You're not going to need a lot. You're just going to need a little bit,

let the defense do their jobs, take some shots. I just don't know. I don't know. Do you feel like the, the, the, do you feel like this, the Steelers can win a playoff game now? Yeah, they could, they could, they could win a playoff game, although I was thinking about how I would rank these currently in the playoffs, AFC North teams. And I'm getting a little sucked into, I mean, if that this is not going happen or I don't think it could happen. But if they went head to head with Baltimore, I would be inclined to be on the Ravens a little bit there, I think. But I would put them ahead of the Browns. Just so everyone knows, I mean, coming into this game, I thought there's a scenario which the Steelers just lost out or came close to doing it. And I thought there was no chance of them winning a

playoff game. I thought that if I didn't see anything from them these next two weeks, I was going to say their D-O-A. I was going to say, you know what? They should be like a college team that turns out a bit. Like, don't even show up. Okay, don't even show up for January. But now that I see that Robertsburg can do this, as you said, I didn't know he could make those throws anymore because he wasn't doing it. Okay, he was just good. He was, he was throwing the ball over the place. He wasn't hitting easy shots. And then afterwards, he was just saying, I'm not very good in press conferences. I know that's been going on for 10 years, but it seemed real. It seems very, very real. This wasn't, okay, maybe he's given these, these press conferences about, he hates Todd Haley or whatever,

like that, that was kind of weird five years ago. But this seemed, extremely real. But now today, those throws, those two throws I talked about, those look like 2010, like touch throws. You need those in 2020. And I'm just encouraged. I just, I feel like he's, I'm watching like a toddler. Like, I'm just like, oh, wow, look, look, he can do that. I still, I feel like I'm watching like an old boxer, which is probably a common Ben thing. But I felt like it was super meaningful that they had a big comeback because the whole body language and the Ben press conferences and everything just seemed like everyone seemed real mad and less than turning down a bowl bit. I just felt like they were they were going to sort of shoot themselves in the foot

and pack it in. Like it just seemed like they didn't think that they could win anymore. So a little bit of tenacity, a little bit of stick toitiveness. Like that's a nice thing to see from the Steelers. I think It's very encouraging. I'm just glad this happened because I don't want to hear any more mopey Ben press conferences. I know. That's a genre we can get out of. I know.

He whines. All right. Let's move on to the third game in this division. Baltimore 27. New York Giants 13. Lamar Jackson, 17 of 2683 yards, two touchdowns, 80 rush yards. Here's something. The Ravens now own the best point differential in the NFL.

Okay. They did so last year. No team in the last 25 years per ESPN has led the NFL in point differential in consecutive years. Pretty good franchise. They average 7.2 yards in the air today, 6 point yards in the ground. Listen, I don't think the Giants are very good. I'm glad we kind of cycled out of the Joe Judge hype cycle. But this was encouraging to me.

I'm starting to talk myself into the Ravens as a playoff threat. I had picked them to win the Super Bowl at the beginning of the year. I'm going to reheat my take that there was a chance that, Lamar Jackson took a step back from a statistical standpoint, but by the end of the year was a better quarterback, almost like what happened in Patrick Mahomes last year, where there was some trial and error during the season, and then by January, things were figured out. I can feel myself talking into this Ravens team making a run. What did you think? We need a take reheating siren or some sort of noise to signify that a take is being reheated. Or maybe you only get three take

reheats the season or maybe that's too few, maybe five. But I don't know. I'm just, just we'll put a pin in this, but there's got to be some way to mark. I'm waiting. I'm waiting. They play the as of now. Who the hell knows what's going to happen to seedings next week. They play the bills in the first round of the playoffs. The playoffs started today, which keeps me from from fully reheating it from fully. from fully just making a second meal out of it. I've got the leftovers out. I've got the leftovers out of the take.

It's on the counter. Haven't put it in the microwave just yet. Okay. I want to watch that game. You want to reheat that take. I want to watch that game. But so here's the case for why what we've seen with the Ravens lately would be sustainable,

which is that they've gotten it going through the run game again. And it seemed like that formula where they're successful there and it turns into more advantageous situations for their passing game. And then those two things can work in concert together. That's what's happening, right? Like that's what we saw when they were so good last year. And that's what's been happening over the last three games since Jackson came back off the COVID list. Yeah.

He entering the game in that stretch, he was averaging 9.2 passing yards per attempt and had a 120 pass rating. And his completion percentage had gone. up to 67% from 58% prior. So we're working with a pretty significant sample size here. And theoretically, and the Giants defense probably got overhyped, as you said at some point during the season, but still the sort of run stuffers on the interior for them should be the strength of that.

And Jackson, J.K. Dobbins, and Gus Edwards, each had over 75 rushing yards today. Yeah. The Giants had a little bit of trouble containing Kyler, a couple weeks ago. So it's not like totally outlandish that that would happen. But that is when we've seen that like the same things are happening

that were happening when we've seen them be at their best. So when I watch the Ravens offense right now, it feels sustainable to me. So I'm, I don't have these takes to reheat. But I'm not, I'm not swiping the plate from your hand. Okay.

I'm glad you're not doing that. Thank you. I appreciate that. So I'm with you. it feels sustainable. They've won four straight games, and in three of those, they've gained more than 200 yards.

And I just think that they have an identity, and I think that's important in January. And I've been disappointed for large stretches of this season at the efficiency of the pass rush. I thought that, especially, you know, with the trades in Gacquay and then Clayas Campbell, all this stuff, I thought they had done such good business

that they had a stacked defensive line, and this was just going to be, this was just going to be a sack factory. And it hasn't necessarily, and listen, this is where I can go back to the Browns thing a couple of a couple minutes ago. But when you have your entire team, either test positive or close contact or whatever and just have your entire team affected by that, even if you personally didn't miss a game, didn't miss time or whatever, that that weighs on you.

And I think we can't put a value on the psychic toll of what they went through in the middle of the season. That's every single team that's been affected by it, not just the Ravens. I think that one thing we need to normalize. And if you have it normalized and start normalizing it, COVID and its effects, whether it's mental or physical, is an excuse. And I feel like because there's no excuses culture and football, we tend to say, oh, it doesn't matter.

I mean, even you heard Kevin's fancy's quotes this morning. Oh, it's nothing new. Yeah, it is new. It is new. And it's not anything normal. And the fact that teams, I mean, this is just about football. This is just about football. The fact that teams, you know, will just cancel practice or players will or won't practice

for an entire state. Like that matters from a competitive standpoint. And that is obviously takes a massive back seat to the fact that obviously the health and safety of everybody, whether that's players, their families, coaching staff, whatever, that that is by far the most important thing. From a football standpoint, which is what we're talking about here, that matters. And that is an excuse for large swaths of games or practice or whatever. When teams are off, you can't just say, oh, everybody's dealing the same thing because

everyone's not dealing with the same thing. So the Ravens are going through something that really very few teams have gone through in the history of the sport because we're looking at a year that's unlike anything in the issue of the sport. So I don't know what that means for January. I don't know what that means for whether or not a team in a relatively short season can come back from it. I just think that there's, it's going to be interesting to see how this develops over the next couple of weeks because I really do think the Ravens are good. I think that they might get a tough draw with Buffalo because I think Buffalo might be the second best team in football.

But it's just worth watching. Well, it's interesting because you talk about an identity and there's really nothing that these coaches or these players can say other than the no excuses stuff, even though it's kind of ridiculous considering everything they're going through. But identity, which can sort of mean whatever you wanted to. Like that's not a, you know, hard and fast concept. It's hard to put, it's hard to quantify. But you see things, for instance, like Jackson seems so much more willing to scramble just to take off over the last few weeks than he was at earlier points in the season.

It was very, he seemed oddly timid to do that. And it's really hard for us to sit here and know how much of that could have been a conversation with a position coach or just working it out in practice or just a few more reps or something that, you know, a player gets to go through the motions of figuring out. And some of that stuff is going to have been lost this year or at least delayed. and we're never really going to know what it was. So I think like in the moments when we can see it, like we talked about the Browns game, yeah, it should count as an excuse. But there's also going to be all of this stuff where I guess in hindsight,

we're just going to have to look back and be like, maybe they could have gotten to this point sooner if things had been more normal. And there's just nothing that they can do about it. And there's nothing that you can say other than, you know, just show up to play the games. But it's a good point. And I, And some of this stuff, when all of a sudden players start playing up to certain potentials that it felt like they were missing earlier, like, it's totally, totally valid that that would be a reason why.

It's unknown. The one thing we're going to look back on, I know in two years, we're going to look back on this and go, what the hell was this season? What in the world? Like, I mean, it was, it's, it's, and that's, by the way, that's not just an NFL take. That's worldwide everything on the planet take. And so I think that we just, you know, listen, it seems so low stakes to put that whole thing through a competitive prism. But that's what we, our job is to analyze the NFL. And you cannot analyze the NFL this year without putting that stuff in context.

You simply cannot do it. It's going to go both ways. There's going to be stuff that gets attributed to COVID that's not actually attributable to COVID and just happened and something went wrong or something went right or whatever it is. But there's going to be a lot of that in both directions. And we'll parse it as best as we can. but it's just what we're dealing with. Take time right at the end here. If you were to rank the teams that,

and this is regardless of matchups, although we can talk about the matchups a little bit, if you were to rank in order, the teams that you think are most likely to make a playoff run, get to the AFC championship game, let's say. Where do you go with this division? I would start with the Ravens.

Me too. And I think some of their, so it's funny, at the beginning of the season, I kind of felt like they have the experience, you know, they've had, they've had tough losses that we all know about in the playoffs, but I do think that experience helps there. And we've seen them playing how they were playing when they were at their best last year in ways that we just talked about how they could be sustainable. And they're balanced. And I still trust them a little bit more on offense. And I don't think that their

defenses, the Steelers have a better defense. but the Ravens aren't too far behind. That's still a very good defense. So I think they have the best potential to go on a playoff run. Then I would go to the Steelers. You know, it would even be tempting to put them first, but that would really just be reacting to basically one half of the game today. And a little bit, the track record that they put up for the first 11 games of the season,

but still just some real questions. about that offense. And then the Browns, who are sort of stable, but they also lost to the Jets and don't have quite the the exclusiveness or dynamism that those other teams do.

So I think I would go Ravens, Steelers, Browns. What about you? I have the same order. And again, with the Ravens hype in particular, if they can play that branded bully ball, which right now they are suggesting they can, and I want to see more of it, it's only been four weeks they've been doing this thing.

But if they can do that, they can beat any team in football, and they can win the Super Bowl. It's just a big if because they've had large swaths where they just look like they forgot how to play football and it's been so destroying and all that stuff. But I think the highest ceiling of anybody who's not the chiefs to be the chiefs right now is the Ravens.

Now, if we were doing the Rusillo draft thing where you're drafting teams, I might be on the safe side and take the bills over the Ravens in that scenario if we're just trying to guess who's going to win the Super Bowl. but I'm just saying there's a version of the Ravens here that I'm getting very excited about if it's real. The take is now overheated. The take has been reheated and it's out.

And he forgot about it and he left it in too long. And it's just like steam coming off the top of the take. And let me tell you something. I don't regret a thing. All right. It's burnt. The take is burnt. Our first winner.

Packers 40, Titans 14. So I learned a lot. tonight. One of those things I learned is something we've been thinking about the past couple weeks, which is what is the value of the buy in 2020? There's only one by first time that's going to happen in recent history where we don't have the normal playoff system. So there's only one by seven playoff teams. And I'm starting to think that it's huge for the Packers in particular, number one, because obviously they get that week of rest. But number two, because I don't want to be a team playing the Packers in that kind of cold weather.

That seems disgusting to me. And if I'm New Orleans, I'd like to play them in the dome. I don't want to go there. Cold weather is fine with the snow, that that's a different element of things. So I think I learned tonight in seeing a pretty good team going to Green Bay and get destroyed and seeing what that team can do, that Packers team can do in the snow.

Devonte Adams played perfectly. Aaron Rogers is really, really good. They were able to bottle up, you know, Derek Henry to the point. And that offense in general to the point that they only had 14 points. And this is a team that, you know, after the Dalvin Cook game a couple of weeks ago, everybody was really conservative whether or not the Russian defense was a fatal flaw. And so I like this Packers team. And I really like this Packers team when there's a buy and home.

Yeah, I think that's fair. I love snow and I love the winter. So I wouldn't be scared like you to go to Lambo and play in the cold. But I can see how some of these unhardy football teams might be disinclined. to do that. I mean, for real, also, also, huge. Real quick. I think that there's, I think people think there's a certain style that needs to be played.

And by the way, A.G. Dillon, obviously, 124 yards on almost six yards per carry, the certain style needs to be played. But if you were to say, like, oh, we have Derek Henry and you don't want to, I saw some people on there, oh, could you imagine tackling Derek Henry in the snow? Well, the Packers held up to 4.3 yards per carry. So I think that there's, I think the fact

that they've shown that you can also just, you know, you can pass and be efficient in the snow. all that stuff and just kind of get rid of the old old school methods of what that looks like I think that there's I I I hate the snow but if I could pass like that I would take the snow I guess you could say anyway yeah no I think that's fair I also I mean the the Packers events did a lot of really good things here and they got a lot of pressure so I'm not discounting that but the best defensive Derek Henry is just to score 40 points and make it harder for them to use him and I think

the Packers have a pretty good thing going in terms of being able to do that the the thing about the buy in the top seed though. This is maybe hard to prove or a little silly. But the other thing that you get with the buy is just like a chance to breathe and take a second and like maybe have a nice evening to yourself. Yeah. And I think a lot of what we've seen with these teams and talking to players and stuff and and a lot of what we've touched on in the first part of the show is just sort of the

the exhaustion and how weird this year is, which we've said a zillion times. And having the buy actually gives you a chance. Like, I don't know if you felt this, but just for me, every time I've gotten like an afternoon to just like watch a movie, even though I've done plenty of sitting at home and watching TV over the last nine months. But sometimes when you just get those moments, like it really does make a difference and it really does refresh you. And maybe this is silly. But like, I just think that that's such a big deal if you got to buy to spend. some non-stressful time with like your family or whoever to just take a breather before playing a playoff game. And I think that could end up being actually more of a big deal than usual,

plus the weather, plus all the rest and all the normal factors. But and then with the fact that nobody else gets one other than the top two seats. So yeah, I think it'll, it'll be more significant than a normal year. And particularly, if it does for the Packers, just because of the weather and snow and all of that. I do think the hardest thing about playing the Packers, though, is that they're just really good. So I've been saying for a couple months, this is like the Occam's Razor season. If you have one thing, you can do it over and over and over again and do it well because there's a lot of, you know, defense is just not now what they have been. From a scheme standpoint, maybe things are slightly simplified.

The game generally looks the same, but they're on the margins. Things are a little bit different. And so if you have an advantage, use it. Right now, what the Packers are doing with Devante Adams, especially in the Red Zone, he's the number one most targeted player in the Red Zone in receiving this year. He's automatic. We've seen that so many times.

We saw that fade tonight. Devante Adams is single-handling making the fade a good football play. Like, that's where we are with that. And so I just think that when it comes time for January, this team, similar to the Ravens, this team knows what it does well. And I think they're more actualized than the Ravens are up because obviously they've been doing it all year and they're going to get the number one seat. But I am I'm starting to come around on the fact that the Packers, and I know this is slightly, I don't want to commit to this take fully. But I'm getting closer when I look around the NFC.

And I think that the Saints are still there. We'll see what the Drew Brees situation is and then his health. but I'm starting to get to a place where I'd be surprised with the Packers don't make the Super Bowl. And I, you know, week, week one when those two teams played, it seems like a long time ago. But in the snow in Green Bay, I would like the Packers in that scenario. You know what's so cool about the Packers is that I think we spend a lot of time talking about, talking about the Rams, talking about the 49ers, talking about those offenses. that are really good at masking some quarterback flaws or being efficient and being really good offenses

if you have a quarterback who's not going to elevate everyone around him and need some help and need some good context to be his best. And it's funny because with Lefleur and with Green Bay, we have a version of that same style and those same fundamentals except that the quarterback is Aaron Rogers, who brings some of the deep passing stuff that he likes to do into the mix there. And I think he's talked about how that's been sort of a collaboration between the two of them and designing what they do.

And it is so, so, so cool. Plus having a receiver like Adams, who is such a good separator that he can make the fade cool, which is just an unfathomable accomplishment to me. And seeing all of that come together, it's just like, I mean, what a, God, I was going to do another car analogy, but like whatever the greatest sports car is, it's like you had a Camry and you replaced it. And it's just very cool to watch. Do me a favor. Just for the sake of the listener, name what you think is the best sports car. I just don't know. I just don't know. I don't care. Like a Porsche.

Yeah, it's fine. I just wanted to see it where you'd go with that. I don't know, Kevin. This is not for me. I didn't get my driver's license until I was 21. Okay. Let's just move on. No, that was good. That was a good exercise.

We'll get you, we'll get you some clipping. All right, baby steps, baby steps. We'll get you into Formula One racing. Is that a possibility? Could we get you under that as a bit?

No, that's been attempted, but not really, but I know some Formula One enthusiasts and it's it's just again I cars are not for me except when absolutely necessary and it's probably going to stay that way all right second winner if you love mess have I got a division for you it's the NFC East Carolina 20 Washington football team 13 this game has made the division descend into madness into a week 17 free-for-all.

We'll get to the implications here in a second. But Nora, what did you think of the football team? Would you think of Dwayne Haskins, two interceptions, 154 yards? And just the fact, you know, this is kind of a broader NFC East take, but the reason they lost this game and the reason that, you know,

they did this thing where they, you know, they muffed a punt and they gave up a touchdown and all this stuff, is the same reason that a lot of the questions of about this day. division, which is why didn't the Eagles just take care of business today so they could have a winner in game? Or why didn't the Cowboys do the thing where they let Michael Gallup and Amari Cooper run wild every week? Why didn't they win games like that? All of these have the same

answer, which is no one's very good. So all of these things. So why did the Washington football team lose today? Because they're the type of team that can lose to the Panthers. This is not much of a mystery. You know how some, well, so this can be sort of applied to the division as a whole. But in my head, I always call them Stefan games. Like this game has everything. And that is so what I was thinking with, uh, the Washington game like Taylor Heineke, for instance.

Um, I just want, like, I would love to hear Bill Hater say Taylor Heineke replaces Dwayne Haskins. Uh, yeah. I, I do think it's a little tough if you're Washington. I mean, the Haskins thing, just like a rough week all around. But it's tough to go out and be playing a team that's not playing for anything in terms of playoff implications. And it really, if you were an alien beamed in from outer space, you would have thought that Carolina had a lot more to play for than Washington. And that was not true.

And I do think that we should credit what the Panthers have done on defense and what role is built there, I think is really impressive. We've said it before, but we've talked about how they spent their whole draft on defense, but a lot of those players are really good. Just by making the picks does not mean that they're going to hit. But Derek Brown and Jeremy Chin and Hartsfield and Gross Maddows, they all had good games. And I just thought that that was a really impressive performance that should be credited. But we're talking about the NFC East and how chaos ruled.

So, yeah, they had an opportunity to win the division, but I guess we shouldn't be surprised, because clearly no one wants to win this division. So this was probably destined from the start. Yes. So it looks, you know, I was reading John a kind after the game and it just seems impossible or unlikely,

I guess, extremely unlikely that Dwayne Haskins is with the football team after this year. After obviously the events of their only part of this week and then the fact that he gets benched, the fact that he had this chance to redeem himself and he just played really, really badly. and this just seems like it's come into a pretty natural conclusion. I was disappointed with just some of the mistakes they had, again,

the muff fun and all that stuff. I just think they played a sloppy football game, and that's not, Haskins is bad, but they probably could have won this game. And so, yeah, it sets up something much better for us

instead of watching the Washington football team, I have nothing to play for next week. We get a wild week's 17 of the NFCs, which by the way, we did last year as well, the last two weeks of the season. No one knew it was going to happen. Carson Wentz was playing with a bunch of people he picked up on the street. And this was, this division's badness in the last two weeks of every season creates something interesting. Now, so with Washington unable to win, the Eagles win against the Cowboys would have set up a week 17 showdown,

according to ESPN, with Philadelphia and Washington. that obviously did not happen. What we have instead is a nice little, nice little weekend. Washington will play Philadelphia. If they win, they're in. That is no sure thing. If they lose whoever wins Cowboys Giants will win the NFC East. This is dark.

And there's a chance here that a, I believe, a 6 and 10 Giants team could win the division here. This is not something anybody wants to see. but I'm enjoying it. Yeah, well, so the division winner is going to have either six or seven wins. Yeah. Depending on who it is in the tie breaks and stuff. Love to host a playoff game. This is, I'm just thinking, I'm thinking about the beginning of the season when this division was starting to reveal how bad it was.

And I feel like people when we would do reader questions, reader questions, listener questions. I do that all time. See, you do it too. Yeah. This is what happens when you grow up in print. Listener questions. People would ask how few wins could win the NFC East. And we would almost marvel in those days that it could be.

We had some mathematicians right. Yeah. So we had some mathematicians work it out. And it's not, I mean, it's not that dark. But we would say real, I believe we and people who can do the math better than we can we're saying like, okay, realistically, the bottom end is going to be like six games. And that has been actualized. And I think we all just, well, we will try to do better next time.

Yeah. And I wonder whether this winner is going to be the start of something. You know, I think that the Beastquake, Seahawks team were a good example of a team that played in the playoffs a year too early, but it was fun and they were building something so we didn't really care. And obviously created one of the best moments in the playoffs the last 20 years. I feel like we will not be shortchanged if whether or not it's a Washington football team with an amazing front seven that gets in and just wreaks a little bit of havoc, not enough to win a game, but because Chase Young is there,

because of the first round picks they've invested. And then maybe there's at least suggestion there's something there for the future. Or if it's a Cowboys team where Michael Galvin and Marri Cooper are playing really well and just the offense looks like something, maybe Zee gets on board. I think that there's a case here where there's enough individual talent on these teams that the playoff game doesn't need to be full of despair. Having said that, it almost certainly will be. I think at this point, the best case scenario is Dallas just because of the playmakers

that they have on offense. The funny thing is that the team that I would like to see in the playoffs is the Eagles. And I wonder if I'm just. And it's because this podcast has just been overrating the Eagles for five years now, except the time they've won Super Bowl. But at least there's something interesting about them. But it is true because I'm just completely, like, I saw somebody, I mean, their secondary is so, so, so hurt.

I saw someone tweet today and I wish I remember who it was so I could give proper credit, but that their secondary is a tertiary at this point. And that really made me laugh. But, I mean, they made Andy Dalton look like Aaron Rogers, right? So I am choosing to sort of ignore that just because I think Hertz has made them more fun to watch. but he's made them watchable at all. They were on. He didn't make them fun to watch.

He made them like so your eyes didn't fall out. No, he made them fun to watch. They're that often. No, I'm saying, I'm sure. Yes,

they are fun to watch, but that's, but that's not what he did. He took them, he did not take them from unfund to watch to fun to watch. He took them from like, give me the remote. I'm throwing the remote to the television so don't have to watch this.

It's like, you know how if something, you ever sees like something gross on the TV and you're just like, I can't, I can't watch it. I literally cannot watch this. It's like someone that's like breaking a leg or something. That was the Eagles.

That was the Eagles. Get this off my screen. And now, now they're fun to watch. Let's talk about a scam. So Dallas 37, Dallas 37, Philadelphia 17,

Jalen Hertz's worst game as a pro. So Michael Gallup and Marry Cooper both have 121 seeding yards. C. Ylam had a touchdown. I feel like, feel like this was what we thought the post-dack team would look like, which is Andy Dalton doing getting the ball and playmakers hands and things working out. Congratulations, by the way.

John Machata had this to Andy Dalton. Dak Prescott is no longer as a week 16, the Cowboys passing yards leader. So there's something. There's something. Congratulations. Andy Dalton. What is with this 356 yard today passed him. So yeah.

So Hertz has a bad game. He threw that that one pass right to Brown, which was just, just, just a bad pass. I don't know what you did. Randy Gregory blows up the Eagles, six tackles, one and a half, sacks, three force fumbles, two quarterback hits, one pass breakup. I think, again,

the Cowboys had so much individual talent. That's why there were a couple of smart people came on this podcast over the summer and said the Cowboys are going to make the Super Bowl or Mike McCarty's going to take that talent, unlock it, and all that stuff. And I feel like today was a little bit of what was suggested there.

I just think they've been such a mess this year that there was no, there was no meaningful hope. And yeah, I just, you know, I don't know. I guess you could sell me on watching a playoff game with this team. They've got great receiver talent. Again, they were up against a really favorable situation with who's playing corner for the Eagles these days. So I don't think that I think we would see a muted version of that if Dallas ends up being. We're going to see a muted version of an NFL. team in the playoffs of any NFC team plays.

Well, yeah, but we're saying that I'm just saying that this is not, this is even if the talent on offense is the reason that they would get there. Like, this is not what we're seeing in the playoffs. Oh, boy. What are we going to do with this team? All right. Our number three winner, the Miami Dolphins. Nor, are you ready to reheat it take?

I don't even want to. Let's take a step back here and just talk about the game. real quick. So Miami 26, Las Vegas 25. Ryan Fitzpatrick's no look, getting his face ripped off pass to Matt Collins for 30-point yards. Add 15 yards

to it. All of a sudden, Jason Sanders his game winning field goal. It is an unbelievable gut punch game. There are so many storylines here and we can unpack them all here. But number one is Ryan Fitzpatrick coming in the game in relief of Tua. And so Barry Jackson

from Miami-Herald reported today. He said Flores was asked, why, why don't you just start Fitzpatrick? And Flores cited to his overall body of work. He's played fairly well. People may disagree. There's a lot of practice. People don't see. Everyone tries to make a decision for us for what we should be doing without all the

information. I respect that. We both, this is a Brian Flores Stan podcast. But, wow, it is night and day between what the offense looks like when Fitzpatrick is in for the past last seven minutes and what happens when when two is there um you know two had 94 yards something like that um going into their relief effort from patrick and the fifth path just just turned on the gas and at some point this is a team with a lot of talent who can win a playoff game if they make the right draw and i think you need to try to start maximizing games

you were on the train early that fifth should keep starting norah please reheat that that take. You can't keep greatness bottled up, Kevin. I wonder if I'm maybe I'm maybe I'll spin that take into another one. Is Ryan Fitzpatrick a bad practice player? Is that what we're learning? It's possible. I would say Ryan Fitzpatrick serves as a purpose. This is something we talked about at the beginning of the year, which is if you can't beat out Ryan Fitzpatrick. A higher purpose. A higher purpose. Higher calling. If you can't beat out Ryan Fitzpatrick, it's not that you can't play in the NFL, but you're probably not an elite quarterback just yet. Okay. And Kintua being elite quarterback in three years, absolutely. Remember, he had a serious injury last year. And there were some takes about that about how he's fully recovered and all that stuff. I don't know where that is and I'm not a doctor. But I do know that I'm willing to give him a little bit of buffer if he's not ready right now. Okay. And so I think that Ryan Fitzpatrick is a perfect. Listen, the Fitzmagic comes and goes. So if you can just channel that into full-time Fitzmaugge by just putting him,

in certain spots. I get that. But right now, Tua, I'm just not seeing winning football there. By the way, you know who's got a little bit of a history of being pretty good coming into a game? Tua. Yeah. So if the Fitsch magic starts to wane, I'm saying that if the fits magic starts to die in a particular moment, put Tew in. Just right it until it starts to disappear. Right before. Ryan Fitzpatrick is about to throw his fourth pick in the first half of whatever game, then go get Tua. Go get warmed up, Tua. You've done this.

So we've stumbled upon something that is. This is like a movie when they discover what the ancient Egyptian thing and everything just starts like the Ark of the Covenant or whatever, right? Just we opened it up and now you can't look at it. You cannot look at this take. But it is pretty obvious to me that the way that both Tua and Fitts, as you just said, have success in relief. So they just constantly are in relief of one another, just cycled in and out.

It's not like Steve Sproier. It's not every other play. It's just, uh-oh, this is starting to go south. We bring in the next guy. I mean, so to be clear, the quarterback platoon thing never worked in the history of football, which is why I'm about to endorse it. Yeah, but you didn't have Fitzmajorie. Game planning nightmare.

like what a nightmare for opposing coaches you don't know who you're going to get every week Steve Sproyer used the use them as play caller like he would send the play in with them as well and then he would talk about it on the sideline with them and then they would go run the play it's actually kind of brilliant it's incredible wow let's get the old ball coach as a consultant we just we just innovated on this podcast Kevin I'm proud of all right so wow the Las Vegas Raiders. So Damon Arnett decided that Isaiah Johnson had Mac Collins. He did not have Matt Collins. Arden Key at the same time was contributing to the collapse by grabbing Fitzpatrick's face mask. This was as bad a play as I've seen from one team. Just everybody coming together

to not do their jobs all at once. A 49-9 field goal, Jason Sanders is an awesome field goal kicker, not an issue. Listen, there were positives. Darren Waller is good. Nelson Aguilar seems to be an actual contributor. And, you know, Josh Jacobs is still good. But this defense is just a bisman. And I'm starting to think, you know,

Josh Dubo from the AP talked about this today, that since Gruden got there, it's now been three years, their 24th and winning percentage, 24th in scoring, 30 second and points allowed, all down, from the Del Rio era.

And I'm starting to wonder. And I know that it could have easily gone the other way or whatever, but I'm just, I think, and I've seen people talk about this, that Gruden is judged differently than other coaches. Maybe it's because he has a 10-year contract. Maybe it's because we just know what the radar organization is and how much building there needs to be. There's talent there.

There is talent in Las Vegas. And I think that there's, have I called them Oakland five times in the last minute? I think I did. It's fine. You're fine. It's fine. It's interchangeable. Make the playoffs.

Then we'll get it right. Make the playoff. It's like the San Diego charges. They're still in San Diego. Okay? They're still in San Diego. Deal with it. So I just, I'm starting, I need a little more.

I need a little more from John Glut. Okay. And that, that's, this is not, this is, this segment is mostly going to be about how the dolphins, uh, save their season and stay in line for playoffs. But at this, this, this, that that Raiders play simply can't happen. To put a bow on the Tua thing, Riley McAtee wrote about this for the Vergeron.com over the weekend.

But essentially, he's just not throwing downfield enough. He's thrown 20 yards or more on 9% of his dropbacks. That's 29th in the NFL. At some point, we're just going to need to let Tua cook. I don't know when that is. But if he can't do it, but fits do it. I'm just, I'm going to, I'm going to be over here, not gloating. All right.

losers. Let's start with the Rams who lost to the NFC West champion Seattle Seahawks 20 to 9. So we'll start with the news here. Jared Goff, according to the NFL network, NASPN, has a

broken thumb. The team thinks, thinks, they'll know more information in next 72 hours, but he probably cannot play next week versus Arizona. There's a scenario here in which the Rams do not make the playoffs. They lost to a really bad Jets team last week, a non-spicy Jets team,

last week. And this was an awful, awful game. And we can't know how much we can attribute it. I was reading PFF before this pod. And they were basically saying, you know, last week, the big thing was the interior of the offensive line just got demolished by the Jets. And that was there. That was a red flag. Well, it was just more than that today. It was everything. And the narrative about the Seahawks defense was there. They were playing teams that were struggling. And so everyone was going to say, here comes to Seahawks defense late in the season. That's exactly what's happening. I'm not saying that's not going to continue. I'm not saying they're not genuinely getting good and they're getting more confidence in a lot of stuff. But that two months ago, everybody was saying, look at the

teams they're playing in December. They're going to go in a quote-unquote hot streak. Okay. And that's what's happening. So the digs interception was amazing. Geron Reed was awesome. The fourth downstop of Brown from Brooks was excellent. And I think that there's there's something there. But I also think if I'm Sean McVeigh, who continues, we're getting into Ben Rothsburger territory, with Sean McVeigh with these press conferences, he continues to criticize his own play calling over and over and over again. But at some point, everything is the problem.

I thought that at one point, I mean, last week you were thinking about the Rams going to the Super Bowl. I've thought about that at parts of this year. I don't know how they get out of his tailspin. And now with Goff having a broken thumb, they're in a bad spot right now. Why does this team have to hurt me just every week? I mean, golfs are one of the worst interceptions I think I've ever seen

today and that was pre-broken thumb, which... He's done that before. He has some just awful interceptions sometimes. I don't know what's going on with our guys sometimes. Well, it's funny because, you know, the person that I always think of when I... And I always think of Brady with that, which is obviously a funny comp. But even when Brady, like, through very, very, very few interceptions, he has this weird thing where, like, he really makes him count.

Like, some of them are just the most boneheaded throws. And then it's like he'll throw five all year or something. But anyway, I digress. Um, yeah, not good. Uh, and he's tough as nails. Like imagine resetting your broken thumb by yourself on the field. That's insane to me. But I guess we're going to find out how much not having Jared Gough really changes for them.

Um, at least assuming that he doesn't start next week or, or further beyond that. Uh, and John Wolford gets to take a spin at it. But it's so strange to me that this team that seemed like one of the most balanced teams in football, not necessarily highest ceiling, but just balanced, consistent, well coach, could do a lot of things well, just has fallen apart. And it certainly starts with the quarterback, but the offensive line, not as much of an issue as last week, but it just seems like one problem turns into two problems, turns into three. four, five for them. And it is very concerning.

John Wolfferts in Jacksonville. So you're a Jacksonville guy, Kevin. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, the Rams are in this, this twilight zone right now. Just so everybody knows, the Rams will make the playoffs with a win over the Cardinals next week or a loss and a Bears loss. So either or we'll get to that. All right. Speaking of losers and the NFC West, it's the Arizona. The Cardinals who lost Sanfus 20 to 12 to the Samaskill 49ers on Saturday night.

There's a lot here. Okay. The Cardinals, you know, are controlled their own destiny. We're going to get to the Bears here after this segment as attack on. Just sort of discuss them when we talk about the Vikings as well. I guess there's a big question, which is Cliff Kingsbury has really struggled on some of these big games. And the play calling has been not good. And when I look at this team, I think, okay, Cliff Kingsbury is the fourth best coach in the NFC West.

It's not particularly close. So they're going to need a ton of talent to not only bridge that gap, but they need to have the most talent in the division in order to win 12, 13 games. And they don't have that. And I don't think they have the best GM in the division. They have the best quarterback in the division against Russell Wilson. And so I just don't know what their path is right now. And I know that can change really quickly if Calvert takes a step or whatever. I think they need some scheme lording here.

And right now, right now, I'm not saying this is final. Right now it's like Cliff Kingsbury knows how to do everything but when. And I think that they need to make massive changes in the organization. I would not fire Cliff Kingsbury this year. I would consider it after next year if there's no steps being taken. We're in Cliff Kingsbury, Norah. I guess sort of in similar territory where I certainly, I don't think he's done anything fireable this year.

I think one thing, going back to the stuff that we were talking about where there's just a lot that we should feel comfortable saying is different about this year, I think it's exposed sort of the teams that need to be front runners more than any other season. Because there's just so many teams you could say this, about the Rams. You could say this about the Browns. You could say this about the Ravens,

uh, to an extent, I think the teams that need to have things going right and need to be in control of, of kind of their context and can take off in those situations, but really have trouble overcoming it when they get knocked off, um, knocked kind of off their access. Those teams, those are the high variance teams. Those are the ones that are really struggling, uh, in certain games and having these just sort of like, can we trust you? What is going on here? Outcomes a lot of the time. And it's funny because the team that they were playing, San Francisco, is the team that, you know, they're not a good team really because they've been handed just an unbelievable amount of crappy circumstance. But they're the team that I probably trust more than any other team

to just sort of like make chicken salad out of it. And that's, to me was was very obvious of a disparity in this game where like, okay, if we have to run our offense through Jeff Wilson, then cool. We'll find a way to do it. And if there would be a way for Cliff, who, to his credit, I think the thing that's been most impressive about him is that he has shown some ability and willingness to learn from mistakes and to evolve. If he could find a way to just capture a little bit of that and apply it, it would probably go a long way. Because the Cardinals,

it is, if Kyler's having a bad day, getting things going on the ground a little bit, things start to fall apart. Hopkins kind of either has 150 yards or he is 45. Like, it just doesn't seem like there's all that much in the middle. And I can see them putting together a finish to the season and sneaking into the playoffs and maybe even winning a game. But I can also see them totally crashing and burning.

And if they could find a little bit of just that organizational stability and what they can fall back on and some of that comes with experience both probably for Kyler as a quarterback, but also probably for Kingsbury as a coach, that I think would go a long way for them. But I don't think that they are there yet. So they need help. They need help from the bears if they want to get in. And that's probably where they should be. You know, that's the kind of team that they've been not at their highest moments this year,

but on the whole this season, that's kind of where they are. The Cardinals can't be in a situation where they're going up against a 49ers defense without, obviously Nick Bosa, D. Ford, but Jivon Kinlaw was out, Richard Sherman was out, Jimmy Ward, Tart was out. All of those guys were missing. and Robert Sala put a clown suit on Cliff Kingsbury. And it's been a weird year for Kyler. We've seen times where we thought that he was going to make an MVP

Polish if the team was good enough. We've seen times where he just couldn't give him anything. And I just think that going into 2021, we need to be asking. There are very few coaches who we should be asking more of in 2021 than Cliff Kingsbury. So that's what. All right, the Minnesota Vikings. Mike Zimmer says it's the worst events ever had, hard to disagree.

Saints 52, Vikings 33. Wow, this was a Christmas Day, Christmas Day treat. Alvin Kamara had six touchdowns. Could have probably had more. I don't really know what there is to say about this game, except to say that Mike Zimmer is correct. This is a really bad defense, and there needs to be a lot of fixes the next couple months.

Is there anyone in your life or maybe you with Alvin Camara on their fantasy team? There is not, no. Great soul needs to take us, though. Yeah. I'm happy for him. Did you? Were you playing them? No, I just know some people who have them on their team.

And let me just be clear, they have told me about it. They have brought it up. But very happy for everyone. involved. I feel like people are going to talk about this for a long time. Like, I kind of feel like people, one thing, I will say this, one thing that athletes tell me a lot about interactions with fans is you'd be surprised how often there's something about gambling or fantasy. And my guess is that Alvin Kamara never has to buy a drink for the rest of his life when he's near anyone who won a lot of money on his fantasy team. That's all. That feels right. All right. So the flip side of this is that

there is an NFC North team that is hard charging. It's the Chicago Bears who beat the Jacksonville Jaguars on Sunday. They now control the playoff destiny after Arizona lost. And they've now scored 30 plus points for the fourth consecutive game for the first time since 1965. Believe George Alice was the coach. perspective. There's a report from ESPN that says that Mitchell Trubisky might be coming back. There's a second report from our buddy Jeremy Fowler that Matt Nagy is probably coming back, that he's done enough in the second half of the season. And I don't know what to think about this, because there are, even if he makes the playoffs, there are examples, you know, Mike Malarkey

was fired after making a kind of an uninspiring playoff run in 2017, I believe. Titans hired. Mike Fable and the rest of history. There are examples of this of teams taking the process over the results or whatever you want to call it. Roger Sherman made the joke today just how funny it would be if the expanded playoffs thing ends up being ends up being kind of a just an entree into saving everyone's job in Chicago. But I just, I think that, you know, Ari Fassan made the point that over the past three weeks, Trubiske's depth of target target is 32nd out of 35. percentage of yards to come after catch third of 35,

broken tackles from receivers per catch first of 32 teams. So he's getting a lot of help. And I guess it comes down to what the contract looks like, what the organizational buy-in looks like, and what the coaching staff looks like. I think there's a case to be made for bringing Trubisky back. I just think that you have to do with a lot of caveats. The bears are truly in control of their own desk.

destiny in more ways than one. That is where we are. They can choose their own cosmic path in about six different ways. And Mitch Trubisky all love to him. He has been doing this against some of the worst defenses and specifically the worst passing defenses in the NFL. And I just hope that we recognize that. I just hope that that factors into the decision making here.

I'm sure it will. but there is a part of me that reads reports about executives around the league, viewing him in a certain way and thinking, oh, yeah, he's been looking pretty good lately. And I just wonder if they are executives for other teams in that division, because I just think the bears have a real chance here of screwing things up for the medium term to long term. and you hate to see it. I agree with you.

The Bears, by the way, are always on the verge of screwing everything out for the medium to long term. Jason Fitzgerald from over the cap who is one of the smartest people in football media made the point today.

He said 37% of the Bears' defensive snaps come from players at least 30 years old. 58% come from players 28 years or older. NFL average. It's more than double for the 30-year-olds and almost double for the 28-year-olds. And so it's already a declining defensive group, and you're really rolling the dice if you think that this team's going to progress at a high level on the defensive side. So I don't know about that build.

And I don't know if you can assume that next year things are going to be the same and that Trubisky only needs to make a moderate step or whatever. I think that you can maybe keep Trubisky and try to do a soft rebuild. Listen, the Nagy report from Fowler did not say anything about Ryan Pace. and I think there's probably an opportunity for a GM to come in, start a soft rebuild, fire people at the end of next season if they want to almost make it like a, like a, you know, remember Joe Douglas, even though he came in with Gase a couple months after, Gase was hired first. He gave Gase two years essentially and then obviously they're going to fire him this year and then Joe Douglas is going to continue on for four more years because he got a six-year contract in middle of 2019.

I could see something like that happening where a GM let's Matt Nass, Maggie just, we'll just see what he can do with Trubisky and then, and then fire map for next year. So we'll see. Real quick on the Jaguars, congratulations on locking in Trevor Lawrence. And then a report that they did not screw around like the Jets did. They didn't experiment with anything. They weren't trying to be heroes. And then a report that Urban Meyer might be in the mix for that coaching job, which I think is a really good coach job.

We showed up by this so many times since podcast, I think that that would be a really good fit. I think Irmaire would be a good coach. I, yeah, I, I think he would either be a really good coach or the amount of losing that NFL teams have to do that some college programs just don't really have to do. That might not sit very well. And that could be potentially not a great situation. But if that weren't a problem, then that's a great program builder. That's someone that could could be a real asset in a situation like that, especially working with a young quarterback.

Urban Meyer is one of these guys who you read these stories and it'll be like they lost to Ole Miss or whatever. And then you'll hear the stories six months later that he didn't talk to anybody for like three weeks after that. And it's like eight Pete's in the room. It worries me if you're going to be the coach of the Jaguars. All right, Nora, time for the best of the rest. Hurry up.

Falcons Chiefs. So I have a theory. And we should talk about the Chiefs because they've won another one-score game. But I think the Falcons did steal the ghost that was haunting both them. and the Chargers. They played and the ghost, the ghost made a choice that we were saying. Like, yeah, I think we just get more and more confirmation of that every week.

But anyway, are you still feeling the same way that we've been feeling about the Chiefs, which is just they have to lose before that we're going to really seriously criticize them? The Chief scored 17 points today, according to Provenball reference, which is the second lowest total in Patrick Mahomes era. Two of the three lowest point totals have come this December. I feel like you have to worry. a tiny bit, but then on the other hand, there's a part of my brain that says, we all view

the chiefs as flawed because they look bad when they win, when there's a bunch of other teams who look bad, bad all the time who are still in contention. So I'm holding on to my chief stock. Thank you. They're still really freaking good, and I'd be surprised if we don't win the Super Bowl. All right. Broncos Chargers. Vic Fangio, staying, according to SBN. Ooh, Vic. And the Chargers had a chance to Charger and didn't further confirming my ghost theory. Yeah, I don't know. I kind of feel like if you're the Chargers, you kind of just want a fresh start there.

And maybe losses aren't the worst thing. I don't know. At this point, you're just screen up the draft pick a little bit. I'm anti-tanking, but I also understand the realities of it. Bengals, Texans. I really hope. So Deshawn Watson had an injury in this one, and I really hope it's not serious. I agree.

That's my takeaway. Sit to Sean Watson. Buck's lines from a couple days ago we didn't get to talk to anything there. Tom Brady's good. We'll talk more about them midweek. Sorry, Tom. Two listener questions. Number one, it's from Trevor Shorter.

Which potential AFC Wildcard team season narrative changes the most if they don't make the playoffs. Great question from Trevor. So we know what the scenarios are. and we know that, for instance, the dolphins might not make it, the Colts might not make it, the Browns have the potential to not make it. If you're looking at a narrative standpoint, Nora, where do you go? I think I go with the Browns because them having the chance to, you know, end the playoff drought and have all of their sort of roller coastery,

but like simultaneously rollercoastery just with all the injuries and, and Odell and is Baker good and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And was this really supposed to be the year? Is this the post-type Browns? Oh, are they actually bad? Or no, they did all the things that they needed to do. Like, I think if that ends in the accomplishment of making the playoffs, it really changes how we view sort of everything that came before it.

and it's just such a big deal for the franchise that it would be really significant. The one that it's definitely not the dolphins. The dolphins are just out. I can see, and I don't really think it's the Ravens either. The Colts just because of rivers and the fact that they're trying something new, right? This is sort of like a new thing for them

and whether they make it or not is going to have a lot to do with how that's remembered. I think they're the other candidate, but I would go with the Browns. So obviously, the biggest narrative that would change would be if the Ravens didn't make it because that meant they lost to the Bengals in week 17. That would be apocalyptic for the franchise when they're in position to win now. And I reheated that take. That'd be terrible. That'd be terrible for me to be terrible for that.

See, I don't think that's right. I disagree with that because I just think that not everybody has reheated their take yet. So it wouldn't blow would be soft. that you don't you think that the losing to the bangles in week 17 if you're the ravens wouldn't be like but we're this question is a little bit more macro than that okay okay all right so brandon i know what you're saying i know i know what you're saying i understand it's a totally valid point i agree that the dolphins had the least to lose in this scenario i would say that again i would say that actually i would stick with my my point that the ravens have would be the most embarrassed and i would say that and this narrative would flip. Okay, that's number one. I would say the Colts probably have, if you include the quarterback,

probably have the most kind of ready to win talent, I would say, and that's just a testament to Chris Ballard drafting and all that stuff. And so if they, aside from the Ravens, I think have a much more talented roster than the Colts. But I think that they,

I think that that would be, if the Colts don't make the playoffs, I think that that would be considered a much bigger failure than the Browns not making it or the Dolphins not making it. Now, the Browns problem is it's just more of a psychic toll where like the fans are just going to go, here we go again. If it's 11 and 5 and they don't get in or it's 10 even 10 and 6 and they don't get in. And that happened one 2007. That's just fans are just going to carry that into the office and it's going to be awful. So I.

If the Browns win 10 games and don't get into the playoffs, it's literally like what was any of this for? And it's a fact that it's a bad way of looking at it, but it's sort of how it would feel. The Steelers, do they, do they rest their starters? What do they try to do? This is, this is setting up for a bad situation. Thanks. I hate it. Um, second question. By the way, we should, we should mention just before we get to that, um, indie oddly as the one of the many 10 and five AFC teams, the one that needs help to get into the playoffs as wildcard, still. does have a chance to win that division if Tennessee loses at Houston next week. Now, that doesn't seem particularly likely, but if they beat Jacksonville and Tennessee loses to Houston, they would win the AFC South. Yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, I need, we should have clarified that obviously because Tennessee, Tennessee lost night. Okay. Second question, uh, is from Kevin Burke. Which owner is most likely to steal a truck with the vaccine and give it to their team?

Let's move on. All right, quickbait headline. Tomorrow's quickbait headline. Just a little question for the, it's a question for the listener more than us. So my quickbait headline is going to be that there's going to be all of the Packers execs who have been leaking positive evaluations of Mitch Trubisky are going to listen to this podcast and know that we're on to them. and so they're going to try to reverse psychology it, and we're going to get a round of rival executives don't think that the bear should extend Mitch, wink, wink.

No, I'm just kidding. You know what I do think that I'm totally bracing for is we're going to get NFC East think pieces. And it's probably a week too early, but we're going to get some like long-form ass, just like pensive 2020 was the year of the NFC East stuff. and yeah, that's what's going to happen. I think there's going to be a Trubisky discourse that is wild.

Trubiscourse. A tribiscourse that is wild. And I would also say, I would also say that there's going to be some Ravens Hype. And I feel like I'm a part of that movement. Yeah, you can, you can, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You can assure that there will be Ravens type. I invented. I was the first person to point out that the stacked roster with the reigning MVP.

I was the first person to say they were good. That's my corner. The take is burnt. A historically really good franchise with one of the best front offices in the game is, yeah, that's me. I invented that. All right. This has been the Ringar NFL show on the Ringar Podcast Network.

Okay, we are back midweek with another roundtable. Cole Wright, Ryan Shazier, and Danny Kelly will join me. Cole is going to host that one. It's going to be the most important people of 2020. We did the trends last week. This is about people. It's some really fun episode. So join us this week.

It's been the Renfell Show on the Ringer Podcast Network.