The Ringer NFL Show - Week 17 Recap: Vikings Defeat the Packers, Early Playoff Seeding Scenarios, and More

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

Sheil, Steven, and Diante return to discuss, debate, and share their expert takes on the most pivotal games from Week 17, and take a hard look at the teams vying for the playoffs in each conference. First, they examine the NFC contenders: Vikings (6:06) Lions (12:53) Packers (16:36) Falcons (26:45) Commanders (37:34) Rams (40:14) They then shine a light on the AFC teams looking for those remaining playoff spots in the final week of the season, including the Bengals (47:13), Broncos (51:21), Bills (53:51), and Chargers (55:10). Finally, the crew offers superlatives and awards to the players, coaches, and teams who made significant contributions to the Week 17 headlines (1:00:00). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Sheil Kapadia, Steven Ruiz, and Diante Lee Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Conor Nevins, Arjuna Ramgopal, and Daniel Comer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer, and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have news shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from John Crackhour to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us.

on the press box. To the Ringer NFL show, Shield Capadia here with Deonté Lee and Stephen Ruiz, Week 17 in the books. The playoff picture becomes clearer, but there are still questions to answer. In week 18,

we are coming off a thrilling commanders win over the Atlanta Falcons on Sunday night. We will talk about that. We'll talk about what it looks like in the NFC, what it looks like in the AFC, and of course, hand out our awards

Deante, how are we feeling? I feel great. This was probably the first time, like the first time genuinely, I can say, in the NFL's quest to have Dominion over the entire week, where Sunday was truly robbed of what could have been an amazing slate, I think, of just interesting matchups. Because I think they're breaking up the Broncos, Bengals game, separating that.

That would have made for a great afternoon game in this one. Obviously, you get the Chief Steelers and Ravens-Sexon. While those were multiple possession games, I think that the scale of what those matchups would have been probably would have made for a much more interesting Sunday. But I'll call myself looking up at all my multi-view options for the morning slate or for the early slate. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing here.

I think the game I'm most interested in is Bill's Jets. And I mean, that game was basically over two-drive. Might as well have been over two or three drives into that. But I'm feeling good. We got a great game. Which game did you have to sound over? Cowboys Eagles, because I wanted to see how close Sequon could get to the record to see if it would be a conversation.

for whether or not he would play for week 18. Yeah, that was the same for me. I initially started with the Bills Jets just to tune in to Josh Allen, the Josh Allen show and to see how depressing the Jets could get. And lo and behold, they got even more depressing than they've been on. This was rock bottom for them.

They didn't disappoint. They did not disappoint in that game somehow hit the over. Not that I'm bitter that one of my best best for the week, where it's 12 nothing at half time. All right, we don't need to start the show with that. Let's start the show with the good stuff. the NFC playoffs, we know six of the seven teams. The matchups, if the season ended today,

the Green Bay Packers would go to Philadelphia in a monster wild card matchup, seven versus two. Six versus three would be the Washington commanders going to L.A. to visit the Los Angeles Rams, which that's a juicy matchup. I will take that man. I didn't even consider that matchup. I will take that one. And then, of course, whoever loses out, lions or Vikings next week, the winner's going to be the one seed and have the buy.

The loser is going to be the five seed and most likely visit either the Tampa Bay Bucks or the Atlanta Falcon. So let me just run down a couple of the scenarios remaining here. Lions or Vikings for the one seed. It actually doesn't matter what happens on Monday night. It comes down to week 18. That matchup between those two teams, the winner is going to have the buy and have home field throughout. The loser is going to be the five seat.

Eagles locked into the two seat. Rams, we said, are three. Bucks or Falcons? This was the big story in week 17. Falcons lose on Sunday night. Bucks dominate earlier in the day. Bucks back in the driver's seat. All they have to do win in week 18 against the New Orleans Saints and the Tampa

Tampa Bay Bucks are in. So Falcons aren't dead. If bucks lose to the Saints, Falcons win in week 18, then the Falcons get in, but the bucks are in the driver's seat there. All right, I think those are most of the scenarios. Packers drop down from six to seven with their loss against the Minnesota Vikings. There's a lot of juice in this NFC playoff picture. I think, Deonti, let's start with you. What has your attention after what we saw on Sunday. Given the results of this weekend, I think if you're the Eagles, you've got to be really kicking yourself for giving away some game, to giving away that commander's game that you should have won last week and keeping the one seed viable, because I do think you want to avoid the Packers

as a seven seed, if that's the way it lands as much as possible. Because when I look at the, when I look at these wildcard teams, say for what's going to be the four or five matchup between, I think two NFC teams that can be representatives in the Super Bowl, I just think in terms of a one game sample if you are the home team, I don't know if there's a team that's going to be a road team that you would want to see less right now than Green Bay. And that's in spite of how cold they looked in the first half, really the first three quarters of Sunday's game against the Vikings. I still would not want to see them. But outside of that, I think that we're going to get, like you said, some really good matchups all the way across the board. I think the NFC is

proven that they're right there with the AFC in terms of interesting storylines, even if the quality of quarterback play isn't necessarily an equivalent. I do think that each, of the teams that you can make an argument for, whether it's Detroit, Minnesota, Philadelphia, or even like a dark horse team, like the Packers, if they're able to make a run out of the wild card. I think that you can look at each of those teams and think in a one-game sample size, like I said, they can beat anybody in the NFL. That's how it feels like the conferences are kind of divided. Like in the UFC, you have the quarterback conference.

The NFC is like the system conference. Every team in the playoffs right now has a well-built offensive machine that, like, we've been saying the last couple of weeks, I really think these matchups are going to dictate which team comes out of this conference because it's so hard to separate them. We went into the weekend, or at least I went into the weekend saying that Minnesota would have to blow out the Packers for me to come away from this Sunday, thinking that they were the clear favorites in the NFC. And I don't know if I even believe that. They eked out a two-point win over them, although it was a blowout for most of that game. Yeah, I thought they dominated that game. I mean, you know, same thing as the first matchup where the

Packers come back at the end. But like, watching. that game throughout, I was like, man, they looked like the better team for most of the afternoon. That was my takeaway. And like they dominated the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. I thought Jordan Love was under duress for much of the game, whether the pressure was real or imagined. And then every time they showed a downfield shot on the Fox broadcast, there was nobody open. Maybe once there was somebody open. But for the most part, the Vikings defenders were just dropping it into all those throwing windows. and on the other side of the ball, Sam Darnold had all the time in the world

to make those throws down field and he was making them and Kevin O'Connell had a perfect game plan for exploiting what the Packers do and what they don't do well. It was a comprehensive display of just good football and a well-coached team on both sides of the ball. And at the same time, the Eagles just look just as amazing

without their starting quarterback. So it's really hard to parse these teams right now. Stephen won't do it, but I'll do it. Sam Donald had a hell of a football. game today. I think it's okay to say. He had a hell of a football game today. And this is something I'm working on with power rankings, right? I think that once you're able to set aside all preconceived notions, all expectations for what you think darnard is, and you just evaluate what he's been in high leverage situations for the most part this year, I think that he had been good before

Sunday. And then you look at him work through progressions against the Packers. And it's like, oh, okay, that's a real quarterback throw, you know, getting to the backside dig. You don't see that often because they're able to operate on schedule against most defenses. I thought the Packers did a really good job, especially in the first half, playing quarters, playing aggressive style of quarters, when they think they're getting an end-breakers for Justin Jefferson, playing cloud coverages to try to keep something over the top and they think he's pushing more vertically. I thought that Sam Donald did a really good job, and he's obviously helped by the protection,

right? He really wasn't challenged in the pocket for the first three and a half quarters, really. It wasn't until the last couple of drives that Green Bay was really able to start selling out and making him uncomfortable in the pocket. but I thought that his ability to accept that Justin Jefferson was so much of a focal point for Green Bay's defense that he could get to Jalen Naylor. You know, he missed a couple opportunities with Jordan Addison, what would have been a touchdown early in the game that Jordan Addison wasn't able to survive the catch to the ground with. I just love what I saw and that it didn't take away from his aggression at points in the game where you usually see Minnesota take their chances. He was able to do so without Justin Jefferson being on the receiving end of a lot of those targets.

He definitely threw the ball well, and I thought he played well, but there were still those shaky moments. And I do think this year, this season, especially on the energy side, I think it's proven that, yes, this is still a quarterback's league. But you can kind of bypass that if you have a great pass protection unit, whether it's a pass protection unit based on offensive line talent or just a pass protection unit based on how the scheme kind of holds defenses at bay and keeps them from pinning their ears back and getting after the quarterback. I think with Minnesota, it's kind of been a combination of it all. And it's been a combination of that combined with Kevin O'Connell drawing up these plays, with Sam Darnel, making the throws. But that's like a thing that we never really question with Sam Darnel, right? Can he make the throws?

That's never really been in question. It's about his process in the pocket, him making the right decisions. And I think what we've seen in Minnesota is that when you give him an extra, you know, fraction of a second in the pocket, he can't be a quarterback who makes throws and does a passable impression of a top 10 quarterback. And with everything else, Minnesota has going for them, that could be enough to win the Super Bowl in this year where all of the contenders have question marks.

I thought the biggest moment in that game, he throws the interception in the second half, Packers score, it's 2010. You're looking at it going, all right, is this going to be a moment where Green Bay comes back? And what I love about the Vikings is they never park the bus, they never take the foot off the gas. Even if it's late in the game,

and even if it's a game where Donald has been off, that wasn't today. But even if it's a game like that, Kevin O'Connell's just like, we are going for it every single time. And I love that about them. They come back on that drive. They score a touchdown.

He's a little play action. He hits Addison on the end breaker. And then it is a combination. It's Darnold playing really well. It's the offensive line. And then O'Connell is just scheming stuff up at a high, high level. I mean, he has gotten the better that Packers' defense the both times they've played. And so I look at everything they have.

have and yeah, I flipped. I mean, it would be stupid for me to say that they're not in the class of the other teams in the NFC that can get to the Super Bowl. They're 14 and 2. They've beaten the Packers. Now they're competitive against every team they play against. It's hard to blow them out. And they just looked like the better coached and the better prepared team like every single week. I don't think there's been a game this season where you're like, oh, they won.

But no, they are always the team that is better coached. I mean, they outgained the Packers 400. 141 to 271 in this game. They dominated for 51 minutes before the Packers made that late flurry. So Donald's one of the biggest stories in the league, you know, this season. That moment, the clip that's out there that they showed on Sunday night football where he walks into the locker room and had the genuine joy. His teammates are feeling for him. Vikings at 14 and 2 could win next week and be the one seed in the NFC.

Again, you could have given me the range of possibilities. what is the most optimistic take on the Vikings, and there's no way I would have gone near 14 and 2 with the chance to get the one seat. We kind of poke fun at Kevin O'Connell. I know Sheel has about doing the quarterback whispering thing after games going up to quarterbacks and talking to him. But in this game, on that final drive,

he showed real confidence in Sam Darnold. It wasn't that fake, like, press conference confidence. Like he watched Sam Darnold, throw that pick in the second half, nearly throw another pick on the drive before that. game clenching drive when they get rid of the, or when they run out the clock. And first play, it's a play action rollout. The play to put the game away.

It's a play action rollout, which Arnold almost missed the throws. We won't talk about that. But Cam Acres makes the miraculous grab, and they put the game away. How many other coaches would have just ran the football in that situation after watching Darnold, who, like, as good as he's been playing this year, does have this track record of being a guy who will put the ball in harm's away. And Kevin O'Connell put his trust in him, and Darnold repaid him. Yeah, he plays to win. They are a fun story and they've got a chance. Let's finish with this on the one seat. So the Lions play the 49ers Monday night. And I have no idea why they would play all their starters in this football game. I know we talked about it last week and we talked about Dan Campbell and he said he's going to play them regardless. This game has no bearing on their playoff seating. They are a banged up team. They are going to have to play on a short week after playing Monday night against the Vikings.

for the difference between the one seed and the five seed. Like, that is as high leverage of a regular season game as there is. Now, we're recording this after the Sunday night games, but I don't know if I just haven't seen it or if it's out there. And you can't sit everybody, but like Jared Gough, Jemir Gibbs, Brian Branch, Amon Raus St. Brown, Feney Seul, anyone I can sit in that game, I am sitting in that game and treating it like,

I don't want to say a preseason game, but taking care of my guys and getting them ready for next week. I'm my nuts in that? And what do you think? Do you think they're actually going to lean into that a little bit? Or do you think they're going to play everyone? I think knowing the identity of Dan Campbell, it would be hard to believe that he would sit guys. I think if you're thinking what will be most prudent, what will make the most sense, knowing what next week's game means, what the stakes of it are and how injured they've been over the down the stretch of the season.

The smart thing to do might be to try to take some snap load off of guys, right? If I can get Amonrod St. Brown 15 to 20 less snaps on Monday, I'll probably want to do that, even if I'm not sitting him out right. If we can get a two-score lead, I will say that. This will probably be if Ben Johnson's ever put together a perfect game script to open a game, this will definitely be the week to do so where you can go get a two to three possession lead over the 49ers and kind of, you know, pare down in a third gear and just kind of run out the clock from there and take guys off the field. I would be surprised to see them sit guys. do want to see the best version of the Lions that still exists now, given their injuries next week.

And I would hate to see them, you know, lose another guy or be banged up going into that game against the Vikings because I do think that Minnesota can credibly look across the field and feel like they can beat them. And I want to see those two teams match up at their best, their best ability. That might be like the one weakness in Dan Campbell's approach to coaching, is that you can't really do the, uh, we're going to take this week off actually and try to just give us, give us some chance. Can't sit guys, man. kneecap bunny never takes a week off. But he's also, you know, he's been a player,

a week's rest for some of these guys. I'm very interested to see how they handle that. I mean, if a guy goes down in that game, like there's going to be a lot of second-guessing going on. So I'm just going on the record right now. If it were me or if it were my team, I would say, like you did the week of prep. You know, coach, like they loved the week of prep.

You did all that. Everyone prepped like it was a real game. But now when the actual game comes around, you actually don't need to play those guys. They can get ready for Sunday. this game against the Viking. So we'll see. I'm with you. And like I said, if it were any other coach, I will believe it, I watched Dan Campbell burst into serious tears explaining to his players why going fully padded practices in training camp was an absolute necessity. That does not strike me as the

kind of guy who's going to sit anybody just because they don't have any stakes in a Monday night football game, especially against the team that knocked them out of the playoffs a year before. I just can't see it. Yeah, you might you probably, all right, we'll see what. happens there Monday night. All right, let's hit on the other side of that Vikings win, which was the Green Bay Packers. We mentioned them a little bit there at the top, but they fall to 11 and 5 now, drop to the 7th seed, which would mean, like we said, going to Philadelphia potentially overgoing to Los Angeles to face the Rams. Ruiz, you watched this game from Green Bay. You've watched them all season long. Do you have more concerns? Do you think this is a one-off thing? Do you feel

worse about them as a Super Bowl contender than you did before the weekend. What's your takeaway from this Packers loss? I mean, I think the lack of a pass rush is what really stood out and their ability inability to get the Vikings behind the chains in a conference where that is the key to beating any team you're going to come across, whether it's the Vikings, whether it's the Eagles, whether it's the Lions, whether it's like a team like the Rams or even the commanders. Like you have to be able to win first down and get teams behind the chains and then get a pass rush on these quarter. If these quarterbacks are given time in the pocket, like an extra second in the pocket turned Sam Darnold from a bust in New York to a potential

$50 million a year player in Minnesota. And like it may be it's an oversimplification for Green Bay's defense, but I really think unless they get more pressure with a four-man rush, so Jeff Halfley doesn't have to send these exotic simulated pressures where like a free safety is coming from 20 yards downfield to get pressure on the pocket. Like if you're doing that, you can't live against. these talented offenses. So yeah, this was a big red flag game for me. And I don't know where the answer comes from. Obviously, they were dealing with injury problems. But I don't know if the guys that are

going to come back, like Christian Watson or Jaira Alexander, are necessarily going to attack the problem for them in this game. Yeah, it's weird. You look at their schedule and they've lost to the Eagles. Now they've lost to the Vikings twice. They've lost to the Lions twice. So they're 0 and 5 in those games. Now they're not getting, they haven't gotten like blown out by those teams. It's a combined 22 points by those five. But I do feel like we're at the point in the season where I keep waiting for a certain version of this Packers team where I'm like, they look like a juggernaut. And you blow out the Saints on Monday night, that's not going to be the game where I'm like, oh, they look like. So I still believe in them as a Super Bowl contender.

But in my head, I'm like, are they going to lose in the playoffs? And I'm going to be like they kind of never got to that next year that I was expecting, Deont. Where are you with Green Bay after this loss? If the NFC weren't so competitive, I would probably be a little less bothered by the fact that they've lost some of these close games in the way that they have. But knowing what the quality of opponent will be for them in the playoffs and the fact that they currently stand as a seventh seed. And so they probably would have the toughest road to get there out of any of the wild card teams. It's hard for me to still live in the same theoretical land with this team that I was in November when they were playing well where they could strike up explosive offense, basically on a whim against anybody they were playing. playing against. I don't know if that's going to be enough for what this defense is and what this

defense isn't. We talk a lot about quarterbacks and how much good play calling can kind of cover for some of their flaws. I think the same thing exists for Green Bay's pass rush defensively. They sell out so many of their resources are sold out on trying to stop the run on first down so that way they can get into these mugged up looks, these exotic fronts and these simulated pressures where they can manufacture a pass rush. When they're playing up against Detroit, when They've played up against Minnesota, these teams who are elite at first down success rate, at turning first downs into first downs, both on the ground and through the air. You see them able to really kind of neutralize what Jeff Hathley has been doing best as a play caller.

And it doesn't take away from the work that he's done to cover for the fact that they just don't have a bona fide winning edge rusher. But it does kind of paint clearly where their deficiencies are. And I think if they saw Minnesota home more road, you know, if they were in contention to win the NFC North this year, it wouldn't have mattered. It wouldn't matter if they were seeing Detroit at home or on the road. I just think that this defense is going to be the issue that it's been all season long. And I think the better play callers, high-level quarterbacks and teams that can run the ball, even when you're loading up the line of scrimmage, are going to have their way with them. And unfortunately, the top three teams in the NFC, check all three boxes.

So I just don't know if I'm comfortable with them still being the tier of team that I thought they were coming into December and certainly a few weeks ago. I thought the Vikings did a nice job of, I don't want to call it like a blueprint, but of figuring out a tactic to really exploit that part of Green Bay's defense. Like on second and long, second and medium to long, they were going no huddle every time. And I think the aim was to try to catch Green Bay's defense in like first down mode and then force them to get into a coverage check last second.

And then Kevin O'Connell can just, you know, download that information. And we saw on the neighbor touchdown, like that was off a no huddle on second and eighth the Vikings had done it a couple times, I think three times before then. I think they saw what type of coverage the Packers were getting in. And then Kevin O'Connell dials up the perfect coverage beater for that exact coverage. And it ends up with a wide open touchdown for neighbor. I just think that's just something that other teams, like an offense coach by Ben Johnson, is going to be able to hone in on that and is going to be able to exploit that tactic.

And maybe he'll be able to do it even more effectively than a team like the Vikings, because he has the best offensive line in the NFL and he can run for seven yards of pop on first down. Yeah, they're one in five against the other teams that would currently be in the NFC playoffs right now. I agree with you guys on the matchup. It feels like the Vikings just really had the better of this matchup both times.

And to your point, Deontay, the Packers right now, they would have to go to Philadelphia and win in the first round. Then they would have to either go to Minnesota or Detroit and win in the divisional round. and then they would need to win one more game on the road in the NFC championship to get to the Super Bowl. So their road's tough, not to say they can't do it. I still think their ceiling is such and their offense, I don't want to have too much recency bias here. Their offense has been one of the best in the NFL for the entire season.

Most weeks, they can run the ball efficiently and they can create explosive plays in the passing game. And I still like Matt LaFleur a lot. So they still have a shot, but this hasn't kind of ended up the way, you would have liked it to end up if you're a Packers fan here. Have we ever seen a 7th seed make the Super Bowl? It's a good question. I don't think we have since the field expanded. Yeah, I don't think so.

And apologies to Jalen Naylor. I call him neighbor. I was conflating it with Malik neighbors. He looked like them. Listen, put those two together and who knows? While we're looking, I do have a question for Stephen. I would like to know, and really for you too as well, I'm interested to know if you guys are as concerned with that receiving

core's lack of separation today as I was, because it was tough for me to look at how comfortable Minnesota was playing man coverage on the back end or playing tight matching coverage on the back end. Every third down, right? Yeah, it's right. And I mean, and they were sending a lot of pressures on passing down. You got a lot of five-man pressures filling up lanes,

not allowing Jordan Love to do what he does best, so to just patting the ball, sitting deep in the pocket, just waiting to uncork, you know, those deep dig routes and posts and deep downfield throws. I don't know if every defense is able to do. what Brian Flores is willing to do to cause you problems as an offense, but it did stick out to me watching the struggles that they

had on the back end without Christian Watson to really have somebody to kind of take the top off of the defense. No, it was definitely concerning. And there were like a lot of close calls on third down where it seemed like the the pass was just out of reach of the receiver's hands or the receiver got their hands on and they should have catch it. But that's what tight coverage does. It creates those

situations and it makes those throws and catches much more difficult. And I thought it was a nice little change up on the first game because the first game it was like all Tampa 2 and cover 2 and Jordan Love kept throwing the ball right into the coverage in that game and this time they switched it up and made them throw against man coverage and like you said the Packers receivers didn't really separate Jordan Love didn't make the throws and then the other point is Packers receivers have had a have had trouble making plays at the catch point all season long that's

nothing new and in the playoffs you're going to deal with more man coverage and you're going to deal with more tight man coverage because refs let defensive back get away with holding a little bit more in January. Yeah, I'm with you guys, 20% of his throws. We're into tight windows. They're just such a hard team because then they get going. Those last two drives, I'm like, he can't miss. Everybody's open.

He's just firing lasers left and right. Man, if they get the ball one more time, they're going to win this game. So there is a little bit of a jekyll and hide to that Packers in games like this. Overall, again, they've been very, they have been one of the best teams in the NFL. So I don't want to overreact to one game here. But just when you watch a game like that, or there are certain moments in these games. where it doesn't look great, and then all of a sudden they look unstoppable. All right.

Let's take a quick break. We got to come back. We got to talk about Sunday night football. What's going on in the NFC South? And of course, another Jaden Daniels moment. The NFL playoffs are almost here, but it's not too late to get in on regular season action with Fandul America's number one sportsbook because right now, new customers can finish the season strong with $250 in bonus bets.

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which expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.Fandul.com. Gambling problem called 1-800 gambler or visit rg dash help.com. All right, we're back on the ringer NFL show. So the biggest movement here on Sunday is that the bucks, like I said, get back in. They are in the driver's seat in the NFC South. The Washington commanders move up from seven to six. And I got to start out on the Falcons. We can talk about a bunch of different things, but you guys know where this is going. I will just play the type here. I mean, they have the ball. With 33 seconds left, they complete a pass. This is at the end of regulation.

They complete a pass on the right side to Darnell Mooney. They have two timeouts. This is a no-brainer call timeout moment. They don't call time out. 16 seconds off the clock. Their next snap comes at 17 seconds. They throw a couple incompletions. Then they complete a pass.

But now there's only two seconds left on the clock. They didn't use the timeout. Now they have to kick a 56-yard field goal at the end of regulation because they didn't use their timeout properly. It's online. I thought it was good on NBC. But it's short, 56 yards. They lose the game in overtime.

That is egregious clock mismanagement. And in a season where we've had Matt Eber Fluffs, I mean, I don't need to go over every single coach. We've talked about them on this pot. It's really been a theme of the season. season. It's been a theme with coaches getting fired for the Falcons and Rahim Morris and whoever else on that staff could have been like, dude, call time out or whoever you want to blame there. I don't care for them to not call time out in that spot. And it's not an exaggeration to say

that potentially is costing them a playoff berth in the NFC South with the way this game went down. Again, I know it's not one play. I know there were other factors. But Deonté, I couldn't believe as I told you guys before we started recording. This isn't like. Like, oh, you should have gone for it on fourth down. Or they should. No, this is just like call. You have two timeouts. There's 33 seconds left.

What are you doing? For that to cost them, that's got to be a hard pill to swallow. 1,000%. And, you know, like you said, I don't want to slam every decision that's been made over the course of the season and Roping Law together. But this isn't like what it was in the Bears Lions game at the end where it's too, like there was a miscommunication and play call. And maybe we're trying to get things set up.

And I'm just running out of clock as a rookie quarterback. where that might have fallen a little bit more on the quarterback than it did the coach. In this situation, Rahim Morris is not new to this. He's been around the best of the best. He's been around all manner of game situation. I don't understand what the thought process was behind not calling the timeout. If for no other reason than just getting your next best play call into the quarterback against the look that you know is coming.

You know you're going to be getting two-minute defense no matter what. Why not stop the clock so that way you can manage the kick situation? because that's really all you're playing for anyways, right? And if that's the case, if you know you're playing for the kick, you want to maximize the time that you have available to get the ball where you wanted to. So I don't know what the thought process was there. The best thing in the world to me is listening to the commentators

try to like tiptoe around the minefield because they don't want to be too declarative ahead of time in case things work out. They're going to call time out. They're not going to call time out. And you don't want to call the guy of Bozo, you know, because something may work out or coverage may get blown and things might still work in the team's favor

in spite of poor clock management. But I don't understand the thought process. And like you said, this is not just the ramifications of, ah, we lost a game we could have won. This could legitimately be the difference between this team making the postseason and not. And if that's the case for as much goodwill as I think Rahim Morris has built up and being able to get this team into the playoff picture for all the roster holes they have, to lose like this and potentially see your season in this way,

it's unconscionable to me. Yeah, I mean, your main job as an NFL head coach. There are a lot of coaches with different roles. Like Andy Reid calls plays, Kyle Shannon calls plays. Like Dan Campbell is such a tone setter for that locker room. But your goal every Sunday is to maximize the probability that you win the football game. And he did the opposite of that with that time management at the end. And he also had an issue before the halftime break with time management.

It was the same mistake. And this has been repeated from his time as a head coach in Tampa Bay, where he also had time management problems. It's definitely a concern. I think you are, overall, you're happy with this first season for Rahim Morris, but there are definitely a couple of red flags that are going to be hard to ignore with game management, and it's happened a couple times during the season. And then, I mean, think about if they win that game,

and they're in first place in the division, and Michael Pennix has the moments he has in that game. This is just a totally different feeling we have about this team going into the final week of the season, and now it seems like their season is basically over and you have to blame the head coach in some part for that. That's like a disaster for Rahim Morris. Not that he should care about like the marketing aspect

or like the fan interest or anything, but you're right. I mean, Pennix makes that throw, you know, to tie the game late, big time throw. I'm sure Falcons fans are all excited at that moment. And then like, who knows if he would have had? He should have, that's the point. Pennix should have had at least two more throws in there,

maybe more than that, to get the kick closer. And you're right, if he makes those throws and they kick the game-winning field goal on the road in his second career start, and now you're going to win the NFC South, and now you're going to host a playoff game. I mean, so much changes there.

I'm with you guys. I think Ray Morris overall has done a good job this season and it isn't a one-coach issue. I just don't understand how we're sleeping in our offices and working 100-hour weeks. And I know there's a lot to manage on the sideline. I'm not naive to that. I would be massive.

You're stressed. Just hire someone to tell you what to do. There are people out there. They probably aren't even making a lot of money. The owner will pay for it. They get to put on the uniform. They get to sit in the booth. You make sure they're qualified.

Maybe someone who's done it in college or something before who comes highly recommended and have them tell you when to call timeout. You don't even have to take their fourth down recommendations. Just have them to hire someone to tell you when to call time out. It was literally the difference between making the playoffs or not making the playoffs for this falcon. his team. Okay. Honestly, though, if you have to hire someone to tell you to take a time out in that situation, you should not be an NFL head coach. That wasn't even, there was no debate. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. What we see on a weekly basis, I mean, we've seen this from some of

the best coaches in the NF, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVey, Andy Reed, like guys, we consider the best coaches in the NF. Mike Tomlin, I mean, these are like the best coaches and we see it from them. Maybe not, I don't know if it's like, was anything. It's not this bad though. Yeah, but they've all had moments where we've been like, what, oh my gosh, what are they doing here? So my advice, just hire someone. All right, sorry, got a little fired up there. All right. Other end of that. Well, what do you, no, I want to ask you this question about the falcons. So are we getting, who is the correct team if you got to choose? Falcons are most likely not going to get in. The bucks are 13 and a half point favorites next week against the same. So this would be a big time choke job, which we see those from

time to time. If the Bucks lost next week to the Saints, then the Falcons won and the Falcons got in, it would be a big time choke job. But the Bucks looked dominant today. It looked fantastic against the Carolina Panthers. Their offense once again, just going up and down the field. I feel like we've had a lot of weeks where we've come on and been like, man, the Bucks put up 450, 500 yards again today. Deante, are they the right team to get in? Or would you rather we get Michael Pennix Jr., Bajan Robinson and Sheal yelling about timeout usage, maybe even in the wild card round.

Spiritually, the pick is Tampa Bay to me. I think resume-wise, the answer is Tampa Bay. If this were a playoff committee like college football, the answer here would be Tampa Bay. In spite of the fact that they've lost both of their matchups to Atlanta, I think that the offense is explosiveness, the fact that they've maintained explosiveness, as guys have been in and out of the lineup,

you think about how much better that offensive line has gotten over the year and especially compared to last season in the last two or three seasons, really. I think that there are so many things that are working in the buck's favor, in spite of the fact that their defense is arguably just as awful to watch as Atlanta's is on a weekly basis.

Just what we've seen for Baker Mayfield on a weekly basis, that looks like a legitimate playoff team, a legitimate wildcar team, I should say. That is the kind of team I would expect to be a four-seed, but spiritually probably the worst team on that side of the playoffs. Yeah, their offense gives that. him the high ceiling and it gives him the edge of the falcons who like i mean the the panic story is fun

to watch and it's it's been fun to see him play well in his two starts but it's ultimately an offense that is limited by having a rookie quarterback like that's going to be the case in any for any team that's starting a rookie quarterback and the buck's offense just when they're firing on all cylinders they can beat anyone and we've already seen them beat the lion so i i think they're the pick this offensive line deserves to be celebrated this run game led by bucky irving deserves be celebrated. Mike Evans is playing so well. Baker Mayfield is throwing the ball well down the field, especially when they give them time in the pocket, which happened a lot in this game against Carolina. It's a fun team to watch on offense when they get going. And I don't know if we could

say that even about the Pennix Falcons. They have like the, how does this look so easy offense? It's crazy when they're on. You're just like, I mean, they have 551 yards of offense today and 33 first downs. This was the fourth best offensive game by any team. all season long. And it's not a one-week thing. You look at any advanced stat you want to look at, even the top five offense this season. Like, Liam, I should do that. I was not familiar with your game, Liam Cohen. I got to go erase some takes from August and early September where I'm like, give me a break. This guy got McVeigh lunch a couple times and now you think he's going to be a great offensive coordinator. There, I'm glad you brought up Bucky Irving. Like their run game.

I mean, they are just picking up chunk after chunk. And then Baker Mayfield making these throws and guys are wide open. They're all there. another team. The offensive line is dominant in some of these weeks. So yeah, they are, I'm with you guys. I think they deserve to get in as good as they've been on offense. They've beaten the lions. They've beaten the Eagles. If we were a committee, I think we would, you know, we would have the nice made-for-TV argument, but the Falcons beat them twice. But I think if you look at the entire body of work through 17 weeks, they deserve to get in. And I'm not like bum that I get to watch that I have to watch this team in the playoffs. I kind of want to watch them in the playoffs and

see how they look and they're going to face one of these very good teams, the Lions or the Vikings at home, of course, if they take care of business next week. All right. I think the only team we haven't touched on is the Washington commanders. They are in 11 and 5 after halftime. They go touchdown, touchdown, field goal, punt, touchdown and overtime for the second straight week. They have an overtime drive led by Jaden Daniels where they score 12 plays, He has a scramble on third and two. Takes a huge hit to the ribs. I actually feel like for most of the season, he's done a good job.

But this game, he was just like, this is to get into the playoffs. Anything goes. And you kind of saw what we saw in LSU film. We're like, oh, my gosh, is he okay? After that one, he hits Zach Hertz for the game winner there. So I'm going to go to you, Ruiz. The commanders would go to Los Angeles if the season ended today in the wild card round. what do you think of that matchup,

what kind of chance would you give the commanders to beat that Rams team on the road? I would give them a decent chance. I think if you can bother Matthew Stafford and dent that pocket, we've seen that offense kind of crumbled. They have had their big moments against the bills a couple of weeks ago earlier in the season when they have

all those skill players playing and healthy. But this Washington team can score on the type of defense that the Rams play. I think it's just a great matchup for that side of the ball. And I'm not sure the Rams, even with all of their weapons intact unless they're getting just

one of those blackout games from Matthew Stafford, I think it's going to be hard for them to keep up because I really don't trust their defense against this style of offense. Because they've gotten pressure with their pass rush, but I think you have to do things to keep Jaden Daniels in the pocket, and that mitigates the threat of your pass rush.

You can't just tee off on them. He's one of those quarterbacks that forces you to do that, to play those games on defense. Lamar Jackson is another one where it doesn't really matter when your offensive line situation is your pass protection is going to get like a 15 to 20% boost just because you have a run threat back there. I don't know if I would pick them outright. I would be tempted to pick them outright. I mean, their offense, they had the middle of the season thing where you thought,

all right, are they going to fall off a cliff, pun intended there? And it didn't happen. They had a little issue. Jaden Daniels was dealing with the rib injury. And now they've bounced back. And those drives they were putting together there in the second half, 12, 13, 14 play drives. They can run the ball. he can kill you when he scrambles in these high leverage situations. And I didn't even think this was like one of his best games overall throughout the game.

I'm like, oh, he's kind of missing some throws here that I feel like he typically hits Deonté. But man, at the end of the day, when a guy can combine for what did he have, 354 yards passing and rushing, 127 yards rushing in this game, I feel like they would have a great job. It's a Rams offense, by the way, that since that Bill's game, the last three games has not looked nearly as good. I mean, that was going to be the point I was going to make, right, is that they've scored 44 points over the last three weeks and put up 44, four weeks ago against the bills, right? And I think that if we had seen the typical December Rams, I would maybe feel a little bit more confident about the Rams' offenses being able to march up and down the field against the

commander's defense. I do think that some of the things that the Rams still struggle with on the defensive side in terms of giving up explosive plays, having those speed disadvantages out on the perimeter, trying to win with four as often as they do. All that plays into what makes Jaden Daniels so dynamic because he can hold the ball in the pocket. He can make guys miss. If you leave any space available on the interior, he is going to punish you for it. And I think in this game, and this was instructive in this game as well, what we've seen

from him in these close game situations is that he can make the throws that keeps his offense, you know, viable down the stretch. Even if we're not seeing anything impressive from Cliff Kingsbury from a play calling perspective, even if guys aren't necessarily winning on their routes as often as we would like to see. I think that his accuracy, his arm talent, and the fact that he can extend forces defenses to honor him in a way that opens up things on this offense. I don't know if I would have said this three weeks ago. I probably would not have given the way the commanders were playing or kind of tailing off

at that point in time and the Rams being fresh off of putting up a bunch of points on Buffalo. I don't know if I would have felt this way. But the more I'm watching, the more I think that that's probably closer to a coin flip game and I will probably think if I was just judging position by a position on a piece of paper. We were talking before the recording about coaches kind of splitting responsibilities between like play calling head coaches and guys that manage the game. I think like you've seen Cliff kind of get the reverse effect of that now that he doesn't have these head coaching duties. I do think he's improved as an offensive coordinator. And like, yes, we criticize him based on his failures in Arizona.

But one, I think he did get some good play out of that Arizona offense, which was just completely dead by the time you got to Arizona after the Steve Wilkes era. And two, we have to give him some credit for, you know, beating the Cliff Cliff allegations in the second half of the season. I think Jayden beat the Cliff Cliff Cliff. I don't know if Cliff Kingsbury. Or is Cliff texting and also his national reporter friends? Was it the Kyler Cliff?

You should have been talking about. That's a good point because Kyler has fallen off too. Listen, someone had to say it. I mean, yeah, yeah, Jaden has played well. But like as Schill said, he missed a couple, he was missing some throws in this game. I thought if you go back to the film against the Eagles, he missed some throws, especially early on in the game in that one.

Cliff has provided him some margin for error. We have to give him credit for that. And he's done it with big pieces, as Sheel has pointed out many times this season. I'll give Cliff credit when Stephen gives Sam Darno credit. How about that? All right. I get credit earlier.

See, the USC fan and Deonté will not allow himself to do. Don't all. Don't do that. Let's do that. I did not like Sam Dronald when he was a Trojan. Don't do that. Oh, no, I'm talking about Cliff. I'm talking about Cliff.

Oh, okay, that's valid. I'm very anti-Cliff Kingsbury is the offensive consultant in 2023. Yeah, it was a combination of, I mean, the run game looks good. They are scheming some stuff up, but I don't know. I'm curious where that gets you without the improvisational skills in the high leverage spots. Which you could say about his time in Arizona, too, with Kyler, right? Yeah, absolutely. So, man, this.

I don't remember a rookie quarterback just having this many moments if you just look at it like you can remember the Bengals game on Monday night, the Hail Mary obviously that just killed the Bears season last week against the Eagles. I mean, think of these two weeks in a big spot, playoffs are on the line and he beats the Eagles

and then he beats the Falcons here in overtime. It honestly might be RG3. Like those moments, like he had the long run against the Vikings and debut against the Saints. He didn't have the clutch moments that Jaden Daniels has. But like, you might have to go back that far to find a quarterback who I think made such an impact on the league. Maybe Cam Newton is the other one.

I don't know. And it has to do with the organization, the fan base, all that stuff. And he gets right. When they had the ball at the end of regulation, I think it was 119 left. I was just like they're getting in field goal range and scoring here. Now, they went three and out. The ball hit Zakias on the third down. But I don't know.

I just had that feeling like he's going to be able to come through in these spots and just, he needs to make like two or three plays, that's it. And if the play call fails, it doesn't matter. He can make someone miss and pick up yards with his leg. So commanders in the playoffs, I'm loving these NFC playoffs. I mean, as we're talking about this, I'm like, I don't know if it's totally wide open, but I think we could get an upset or two. And even the teams that we don't expect to be, you know, competing for a Super Bowl,

they're fun teams. I think it's what you were saying, Ruiz in the beginning. Like, they're offensive teams, you know, the bucks, the, even the Rams, best offensive game, the commanders, we're seeing at the Packers. I mean, if you just look at like offensive efficiency, all these teams are up there in the top 10. I would never pick this to happen, but just in terms of matchup alone, if Minnesota wins a one seed and the Lions have to take that injured defense on the road to Tampa Bay with how well they've played against man coverage and how good they are running the ball against this decimated front seven of Detroit.

I'm not saying I'm not saying how to pick the upset. I think that Detroit would be a little bit more concerned than we would probably imagine, given the way that they have played throughout the regular season. They beat them in Detroit. I don't think it's like the hottest take that they could pull off that upset. It's possible.

I mean, that was a long time ago. That was a long time ago. Detroit was a different defense back then too. It's a great point. As you were describing it, I'm like, yeah, he's got a point. Tampa at home. They beat him before. Man, that would be something.

The Lions team that has been the favorites to win the Super Bowl for the bulk of the year may have to go on. the road in a round one against the top five offense when their defense is decimated. See? That's why the NFC is going to be fun. All right. I think we hit it.

By the way, the O'Connell whisper thing. I forgot to follow up on that route. We joke because it seems like after every game, O'Connell is whispering something to the opposing quarterback. And the reason I have talked about on the midweek show, do you think like the coach of that quarterback is like, hey, stay away from my guy? I like, I think Kevin O'Connell is my coach of the year. Now, he's surprised.

With the way the Steelers have fallen apart, I can't believe Tomlin has to go another year without getting it. But I don't know how I can give it to anybody else when the Vikings are 14 and 2. It's got to be him or like Jim Harbaugh, I think, deserve some credit here. We got to, I think every person,

every Monday after they win, should be forced to look at that Chargers depth chart. And just remember what we were talking about in the off season with that team. All right. I like him. I'm sure at some point we'll be giving out all of our awards. All right, let's take a break.

We come back and we move to the, AFC. All right, we're back on the Ringer NFL show. So here's what we've got in the AFC. We talked about some of these teams, a bunch of these teams and these games when we recap the Christmas Day games. But chiefs obviously have the one seed locked up there. The bills now have the two seed locked in.

So they're like the Eagles. They can't move up. They can't move back so they can rest their starters in week 18. The AFC North, the Baltimore Ravens win the division with a win over the Browns in week 18. or a Steelers loss to the Bengals in week 18. So that's obviously looking like the most likely scenario, even though it's not clinched just yet.

Texans are locked into the four seed. They're another team. Do not have to play their starters in week 18. If they don't want to, they can't move up, they can't move back. Steelers have this free fall. Still have a chance if they beat the Bengals and the Ravens loose to the Browns in week 18. Highly unlikely.

So right now the Steelers are in that five spot. Chargers locked into a wildcard birth would go to Baltimore in round one if the season ended today. And then it gets interesting. Will the Denver Broncos hang on there right now the 70s? They lose an overtime to the Cincinnati Bengals on Saturday afternoon. So it's very simple for the Broncos. If they win, they're in.

They face the chiefs in week 18. The Carson Wentz led chiefs, I would think most likely. if they win that game, they are 8.5 point favorites, by the way. If they win that game, they are the 70. If they lose that game, they can still get in with a dolphin's loss

and, right, a Bengals loss here. Then they are still in the playoffs there so they can kind of back their way in. So, dolphins and Bengals still alive. Dolphins need the Broncos to lose and to beat the Jets.

If that happens, nothing else happens, the dolphins are in. the Bengals need both those teams to lose. They need the dolphins to lose to the Jets, the Broncos to lose to the Chiefs, and then they need to beat the Pittsburgh Steelers. So not that crazy. I think ESPN gives it a 15, 16% chance.

So if you would have said that about the Bengals a few weeks ago, you probably would have taken those odds going in to week 18. Deonti, let's start with you. Again, we talked about some of these teams, but what has your attention after what we said? saw this weekend. I cannot believe the Bengals are still viable in a playoff race. I can't, I can't even tell you the amount of times I've written the, oh, they've had a respectable season, but it's probably over. Great, great job by Joe Burrow. Looks like he's finally taking that leap

into the elite echelon of quarterbacks. Doesn't matter. Jamar Chase having an all-time great receiving season. Doesn't matter. Season's over. And they look up now. And I mean, like you said, The pathway is not the clearest, right? They don't control their own destiny, but they've done what they needed to do to keep this window open for as long as possible. And, you know, if the Chiefs had anything to play for, I think it will feel a little bit more hopeful right now than it currently is, but they'll probably be sitting their starters. So I do expect the Broncos to close this thing out, but I am really blown away by the fact that they were able to win that football game, even though it was an absolute mess of an ending to be able to keep their window open. We got to get them in. I mean, if we're looking at which team we want to get in,

it's got to be the Bengals go in a Buffalo in the wild card round. That would be incredible. I don't need to see. The dolphins, I mean, the dolphins, we don't know if it would be Tua or Tyler Huntley. I do not need to see either of those. And while the Broncos have had a nice season, that team going to Buffalo just does not have the same juice through you. So what do we need to do to get the Bengals in here?

No, we have to ensure that the dolphins lose on something. because I think there's a very decent chance that the Chiefs still pull off this win somehow. I don't know. I was kind of thinking that too. Is it going to be? I mean, yeah, you can't sit everybody. It's not like their entire team's going to be benched like a preseason game. No, and we've seen this Denver defense kind of, you know, regress over the last month.

I know they have the game against the Colts where the Colts kind of, you know, shot themselves in the foot repeatedly over and over and over again in that game. But outside of that, they give up 32 to Cleveland in week 13. they give up 34 to the Chargers in week 16, and they give up 30 to the Bengals who probably could have scored more if the game script was different. They were marching up and down the field with ease

every drive they had. I don't think it's a short bet that Carson Wentz isn't going to show out against his defense. And if he does, that could be enough to tip to scales in their favors because we've seen defenses that get a beat on what Sean Payton is doing tend to shut down this offense,

just because of how it's constructed and how Bo Nix operates in it. If you can just stop those short passes and limit yak, you usually have a chance. And if you could stop the run game, and the one thing that the chiefs have been able to do is stop opposing run games. So, I don't know. I think there's a good chance of the dolphins end up making it, because they would also have to lose the Bengals in,

and they're taking on a Jets team that quit weeks ago. Oh, I would be the worst case scenario. I think that all due respect to the dolphins fans out there. Oh, I disagree. I disagree. I think with Tua in the offense, But is Tua definitely going to play? We have no idea. He's got this hip injury, and we don't know if he'll be back.

He was reportedly fighting to play in this game, so that makes me assume that he was at least close or there was a question that he would play or not, and he gets two weeks to rest. If they win next week, I don't know. I think there's a chance. We just saw it in the cold last year. We don't need to see that game. I was going to say, I've got to be honest with you, man. The three teams that are fighting for this last playoff spot.

I think the dolphins are the ones I want to see the least. I think I've gotten my fill of Dolphins, playoff, high leverage football games. I don't know. It could be a fun day on social media. That's all I'll say. All right. So, Ruiz, you would go in order, ranking of your preference would be Bengals, Dolphins, Broncos. Yes. All right. Deonté and Iowa, I think, would go Bengals, Broncos, dolphins, yes? That's my order. There you go. I think I said earlier, so if the Broncos lose,

they need both the dolphins and the Bengals to lose to kind of back their way into it there. So ESPN gives them a 53% chance to get in. Dolphins 32% chance. to get in and the Bengals a 16% chance to get in. That would be fun. Odds are still against them, but that would be a lot more fun than the other teams getting in. All right, I'm looking at the other teams here that we have not, that we did not talk about on Christmas Day. You said, Ruiz, the Jets quit. Did we learn anything about the bills today? Is it just are good feelings, at least, were the defense going into the playoffs or is this just it didn't really matter type game? You didn't really learn anything about this team because I thought the bills kind of started the game off slow.

There was a chance for the Jets to get back into this game multiple times in the first half. And I just thought Eric Rodgers played one of his worst games of his Jets tenure, which is saying a lot. And I thought he had been playing decent football over the last month. I know a couple weeks on the pod, I was saying, hey, I would pick this guy up if I was like a team that was just a quarterback away. And I was willing. And I had a coaching staff that could deal with that personality, Kyle Shannon. But no, this was an ugly performance from the. Jets. And I don't think it tells us much about the bills that we didn't already know, which is

that offensive scheme is very good. And when it's humming, it's very hard to stop. Yeah, they've got to be feeling good about this. They don't get the buy, but they can at least rest their starters. And that's not a bad draw. You know, they're going to face whoever gets in as the seven seed. I guess I'm sure the Bengals are the team they would least like to face. But, man, they might put up 700 yards on that offense. They would just have to get a couple on that defense, they would just have to get a couple stops. But if they get the Broncos or the dolphins and then have to get ready for that divisional round, that would be a decent draw for the Buffalo Bills.

The Chargers on Saturday, I mean, they have put together two of their best offensive performances of this season in the last two weeks. Is this Deonté potentially a case of something coming together where you believe in them a little bit or is this just a little, hey, that's cute, little blip on the radar, but they're not going to Baltimore and beating that Ravens team. Of the teams that are vying for a playoff spot, I feel like I have no grasp on what the chargers are right now. Yeah. And at different points, I've thought, you know, I've thought I've had a good feel for the team. I think the defense is taking a bit of a step back. And then as I was ready to kind of dismiss them as a result of that, they've gone with a higher volume

passing game. They've really kind of let Justin Herbert cook from the pocket. I think that he's done a great job of distributing the ball. I think he has, he has his guys that he trusts now, right? Like, we've seen Stone Smart be used a little bit more often in the intermediate areas. That, that to me, while you would not like to be throwing the ball to Stone Smart. It's true. I'm laughing, Deonté, because if you, if you would have told me in August, we're going to be coming on here, Week 17 and be like, talking about Stone Smart. Tighten number two for the structures.

It's true. It's true. That's true. It's the truth. And I mean, having Lab McConkey back, I think opens things up for him. He definitely has had a great. chemistry with McConaughey all season long. I don't know if I would pick them to beat the Ravens if the playoffs ended today, and that's how the matchup shook out. Honestly, I don't know if I would pick them to beat any of the divisional winners, except maybe the Texans, just because that offense for Houston is just such an issue. But I think that they're one of the teams that you don't want to have to play against,

because you know they're not going to give up many explosive plays. They are going to shrink possessions, which, you know, obviously is going to increase variance a bunch and they do have an elite level quarterback and Justin Herbert that can get hot at any moment the way he did in the second half against Denver and basically throughout the game, wire to wire basically against the Patriots on Saturday. I just don't know if I would consider them better

than any of the teams that are ahead of them right now. Yeah, I think the Chiefs are looking at this and praying that they don't end up in the fifth seat, I guess is what their ceiling is for the playoffs. Because right now you have the Texans and the Steelers and the four and five seats And those, like, if that's the matchup in the second round, we just saw them take care of both of those teams in the last week.

And we've seen the Charters play the Chiefs tight. They lost to them by seven in week four. They lost to them by two in week 14 on the doint in field goal. So, I mean, I don't think they can go much further than that second round, but like they're going to give the Chiefs a game if that's the matchup. We've seen that throughout Justin Herbert's career, no matter what, the Chief's Charter's game is usually close and comes down to the final drive. Now, usually it's Patrick Mahomes throwing a touchdown on that final drive to beat them.

But things are different in Los Angeles. Jim Harbaal's presence means something. Yeah, I agree. I think it's not most likely if I had to pick one disruptor in the AFC that we're going to be looking up and saying, oh my gosh, how is this team still alive in the playoffs when they haven't had a home game? I think it's the Chargers. I mean, this last game of theirs, I'm just looking at the EPA per drive was a 94th percentile game league-wide. their best game of the season and their week 16 game against the Broncos was an 89th percentile game league wide.

Two of their best three offensive games of the season have happened in the last two weeks. And I know the Patriots defense isn't very good. That Broncos defense, Ruiz, you were mentioning earlier, they don't look as good now. But overall, they've been a good defense this season. So I don't know. I'm with you, Deonti. I don't have a great feel for them. But maybe they're a little bit of an interesting playoff team.

there. If they have to play Buffalo or Baltimore, though, in the first round, they're getting run off the field. Absolutely cooked. They do have something in there where I feel like they, well, they have gotten blown out a little bit this year. I guess, how they just got blown out by the bucks a couple weeks ago. Yeah, probably. I don't know, though. Harbaugh and Herbert on the road, it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. We'll see how I feel once we get there. I was going back and looking through old hardball press conferences, like back when he was hired by the Chargers. And one of them, he was asked about the offense. and what his vision for the offense was. And somehow he got to, like, the defense and the special team. And he concluded it, he's like, it's not just about the offense. It's about the special teams, the defense, the offense. It's about Wii fence.

And right there, I was like, you know, I would love to play for this guy. I would run through a brick wall for Wii fence. Come on now. That's gold. We fence. There you go. All right. I think those are the big storylines there in the AFC.

Again, we talked about the Christmas Day games and the Chiefs and the Steelers and the other stuff on the previous pod in case. you missed that one. All right, we'll take a break. We come back. We finish the show with our awards for Week 18. All right, we are back

on the Ringer NFL show. Ruiz, you want to start us off? What do you got? Yeah, I'm going to give Drew Locke the really right now award on behalf of Giants fans who watch Drew Locke just absolutely plummet

their draft positioning by winning a game against the Colts where I don't have the stab line right in from you. I think he threw four touchdowns and averaged 14 yards per attempt and even ran for a touchdown.

By EPA, it was one of like the top six performances. By EPA per play, I should add. One of the top six performances since 1991 or 1999. What? Really? Yes. Oh my God. I'm looking at this stat line. Here I go.

I got the box score for you. 17 for 23 for 309 yards. Four touchdowns. No interceptions. No sacks. average 13.4 yards per attempt. Holy cow. Yeah, it was amazing. Now, most of this was just Malik neighbors just being insane and turning like routine throws

into, you know, amazing plays. But oh, my God, if I was a Giantsman, I'd be sick to my stomach. I had the same one. Most damaging win, New York Giants. They entered the day with the number one overall pick. They won this game. And now they dropped to the four spot because they lose the strength of schedule tie break to the Patriots, the Browns, and the Titans.

So via ESPN, a loss today, they would have had an 86% chance to have the first pick in the NFL draft. Now they have a 5% chance to have the first pick in the NFL draft. So I don't know. I know there's no like consensus. Oh, this is a can't miss type quarterback. And I guess, you know, last year should show us something that you can get guys later in the draft. but you still kind of want your choice, right, Deonti, of the top guy? I mean, the point of being at the bottom,

being at the top of the draft is that you get some control over who you got to pick. And this is probably as quarterback desperate a team as there will be at the top of this draft. So, yeah, in terms of losing in victory, losing by gaining a victory, I don't know if you could do much better than the Giants did on Sunday. And I also want to say, like, if you're the Colts, I mean, how embarrassing of them. Oh, my next one. like, Gus Radley has, he has to have the unhirable tag as a defensive coordinator going forward. This isn't excusable.

The crazy thing is he didn't get hired by Shane Steak and he got retained by Shane Steak and he got retained from the previous staff, just an insane hire in my opinion. Yeah, I've got them as my most embarrassing loss. One of the most embarrassing losses of the season, certainly the most embarrassing loss of week 18. I mean, this is a team that we could have just been talking about in the previous segment. as they had they had a better chance to make the playoffs going into this weekend than the Bengals and the dolphins they go to MetLife Stadium against a team that you guys just outlined had no motivation real motivation to win as an organization had lost 10 in a row was 0 and 8 in home I gave them the

one two three cancun tag last week and you go into that game and you allow the stat line that we just read out for drew lock you give up 45 points in that game this. This is why, what a season for the Colts. This is like a disaster season for them. I mean, I know Shane Steichen was getting a lot of like pop last year. Look how this season has gone. They sort of like just done this weird thing with the guy who was supposed to be the franchise quarterback.

They're developing. And then you go on the road. And with Joe Flacco, you should still be able to beat the New York Giants. They were what? Still seven, eight and a half point favorites. Stephen Holder of ESPN who has covered the Colts for a long time road. This is the most embarrassing Colts loss since the infamous. miss 2021 finale in Jacksonville, which if you remember, they were monster favorites. It's kind of like,

you know, the situation we're talking about the bucks going into in week 18. Huge favorites just need to beat a terrible team to get in. They don't. Jim, or say reportedly or allegedly or whatever, is like, Carson Wentz is not coming back and being my quarterback next season. I don't care what you need to do. Get him out of here. And everything flipped on that one game where they would have been in the playoffs if they won that game. So yeah, I don't know where that team goes, but I also know that Jim Ursay is going to look at that and is not, you know, afraid to just make impulsive decisions. And it could be an interesting offseason for the Colts one way or the other. I don't know if it's impulsive, man. Have we learned anything about this team except for the fact

that like Bernard Raymond is better at tackle and Alec Pierce is like an interesting vertical threat or receiver? I don't think that we've learned anything else that's truly a valuable. over a 17 game sample or 16 game sample size at this point. And that's the absolute opposite of what this season needed to be. It was okay for them to miss a playoffs this year. We just needed to come out with a little bit more clarity about where their young pieces are. And we have none of that right now. And if you're Shane Stike and the guy who was hired because you were touted at your last stop

as being able to speed up Jalen Hertz's development and put together a scheme that works to feature the players that you have, I haven't felt an impactful Jonathan Taylor game until about two or three weeks ago. And it's been all year. He's not like a 30% rushing success rate. And you're playing next to one of the most dangerous running threats when he's healthy and Anthony Richardson in the league. There are so many things that have been inexcusable.

And that doesn't even touch what Gus Bradley's been for this defense. See, I mean, you couldn't imagine a year going much worse. The last little takeaway I had from this situation talking about the Colt staff is, If you're a Bears fan and you hear the name Pete Carroll being thrown around and you start thinking about what a staff would look like if he were hired, you've got to be looking and really dreading the idea of him possibly bringing in Gus Bradley to be his defensive play caller if he gets let go of in Indianapolis. Yeah, Dan Quinn's not walking through that door. He's got his own job.

It's a great point about what the season was supposed to be about for the Colts and how you didn't even work to really gather that information. I mean, it was supposed to be all about the quarterback's development. When you spend a top 10 pick on a guy, I don't know how you yo-yo him around in this situation. I don't know what was going. And now you get to this point of the year, you don't have a great feeling about what you have with him. You don't know. And it's not like you traded that in to, well, at least we made the playoffs and had a good season.

Otherwise, you're absolutely right. There's just not a lot there to be excited about with the Indianapolis Coles. So maybe you're right. Maybe it's not impulsive. But in the past, you, Mersay, it's been very impulsive. I'll just go, yeah, on the record. Now that Deonté brought it up,

I know he's linked to the Bears, but it would be kind of funny to see the Coltshire Pete Carroll, then he just keeps Gus Bradley. He's like, I hear, keep Gus Bradley for a third. There you go. All right, Deonté, what do you got?

What's it? What do you have for your first award? So my first, my first appellative is actually tangentially related to this game. I'm giving the Kirkland brand award to Brian Thomas Jr.

and Malik Neighvers as the latest LSU products to show up and have big breakouts as rookies. And this is honestly, the reason why I'm giving them this award is not just for how effective they've been. Brian Thomas Jr. has about 1,200 yards receiving in 10 touchdowns. Malik Neighbors has over 1,1006 touchdowns on the year.

But it really kind of inspired me to go back and watch Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase because at first I was going to say that it's about the same. And then I went back and watch. And no, it is not the same at all. It's not the same even a little bit. Both Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson went for over 1,400 yards. Justin Jefferson at seven touchdowns. And remember he missed the start of the year with the hamstring issue, I believe, in his rookie campaign.

And Jamar Chase had arguably the greatest rookie season ever outside of what we saw from Pooka Nakuwa last year as a receiver of 1,400 yards and 13 touchdowns. So I really just wanted to kind of acknowledge the fact that Brian Thomas Jr. and Malik neighbors, both can end up being top 10 receivers in their own right if we've looked at what they've been and how impactful they've been, especially considering all the quarterback dysfunction. they've been playing through. But I will not, and you cannot compare those two to anything like what it was for Jamar Ches in Justin Jefferson when they first got into the league. My wheels were spinning. I'm like, wait, with Kirkland, where are we going with this? But you landed it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you brought it home. No, they've both had fantastic scenes. But I like that. A little history lesson, you know, for the youth who think, every new person who comes in is the greatest thing ever. Yeah, those guys were doing it on a different level there. All right, Ruiz, what do you got? What's next? I got to give the Eagles the quarterback factory award.

Unironically this time. I'm not making fun of them. They plugged Kenny Pickett in. He played well. He looked like a pro-bowl level quarterback, like production-wise with the stat line. I don't know. He had some moments. He had the moment where he tried to hold on to the football. I'm just talking about the stat line, okay? If you watch, just don't watch the game. And then, you know, he goes out injured and Tanner McGee comes in,

And he looks just as good as can he pick it? I don't know. I just think better. Yeah, this is an offense. I'm not going to tear down Jalen Hertz because these guys look good, but it is an offense that in a pinch could be quarterback proof. And that's very hard to build considering all the salary cap implications of the guys they've paid already. They're spending money on two wide receivers, which apparently you're not allowed to do.

I'm looking at Cincinnati right now. Apparently that breaks all the laws of salary cap management. It's just a fantastic setup they've built. And it doesn't really matter if Jalen hurts his contract ages poorly. I think it's just proof that he's going to be a productive quarterback, no matter how he plays over the next couple of years. And that's commendable for the front office, at least. So much of this year to me, it has been about good process for Howie Roseman kind of

overriding some questionable decisions in certain spots. I think that just institutionally because they're willing to spend high amounts of cash, right they're able to convert guys salaries into bonuses to buy themselves enough money to be able to spend on the edges to continue filling out this roster you're able to take swings where even if it doesn't land

they turn out fine and I think that you can look at Kenny Pickett as a backup quarterback and on the whole say that that was probably the wrong transaction to make and Sheel and I have both been saying on this show and Sheila I know you've said it on Philly Special I know our friend bro Wolf as a PSOLY podcast has mentioned that Tanner Rakees

has been outplaying him through Training camp probably is the better quarterback. But it really doesn't matter because he's playing behind the best offensive line in football. You have the most dynamic running back in the league playing next to you in the backfield and an all pro and fringe all pro at wide receiver to throw to. So regardless of whether or not he's 100% or not, which he wasn't in this game. And if he does exit, now your third string quarterback has to come in. You can just say, F it, man.

Devonte Smith and A.J. Brown are down there somewhere. And the play action game has never been more effective because of who you have in the the backfield. So yeah, I think that this has been, this has been a trial in how you can get good results because of good process, even if one particular swing or a handful of particular swings don't work out in their favor. Because I can definitely see the timeline where Sheila and I are coming on this show slamming the jihon d'aths and trade, slamming the trade for Kenny Pickett, you slamming the trade to get to bring in Bryce Huff. You slam the trade for or the acquisition of Mackay Beckton. And we really haven't had to have any of those conversations because they've done such a good job

but building an infrastructure that works no matter what they put around the margins. I have a question. It's kind of similar to the Dan Campbell-Lyons question. Do you let Seyquan go for the record next week if you're Nick Siriani? To me, I think it's asinine to risk maybe your best offensive playmaker for 101 extra yards. You've crossed a 2,000-yard milestone or threshold. This is an all-time great season. You've got franchise records.

It's been very effective. If you were within 40 yards and maybe you could get a, in the first quarter. Then it's a little bit more of a conversation. A full 101 yards, I don't even think it's a conversation, man. Have you seen this Giants defense? You can get it in one quarter. Sit the guy and get prepared for a Super Bowl run.

That's me. Yeah, I agree. And it's one of those things. We just recorded a Philly special. I talked about this at Lent. And I'm with you, Deonti. I'm like, no-brainer. You're trying to win a Super Bowl.

The sky's incredible. I know that every time, I know football's a dangerous game, and you always have injury risk, but this is like an unnecessary. Like you can't move up. If you had a chance at the one seed, yeah, go for it. Win the game with him. It is funny, though, hearing or interesting hearing like players or talk about it.

You know, like, AJ Brown's like, yeah, I want to be able to tell my kids, you know, 10 years, 15 years from now that, yeah, I was his teammate when he broke Eric Dickerson's record from 40 years ago. I even heard Tom Brady during the Packers Vikings game. when it was brought up, he's like, yeah, I think he should go for it. Like stuff like that doesn't come around every so often. So I do feel like that because I thought the same thing. I'm like, oh, this is, you know, sports talk, radio fodder.

Like, there's no way you should do this. But I think there are like reasonable people. And specifically the player aspect of it makes it interesting to me where they're like, no, of course, yeah, you got to go for it. So I don't know. What do you think, Ruiz? Do you think he should do it? No, you probably shouldn't do it.

But I want them to. I know. Yeah. I would enjoy it. I mean, because this is probably about as close as you'll get with passing volume being as high as it is in the modern NFL for a guy to actually be within reach. So there is a part of me that wants to see what I would consider to be one of the near unbreakable single season marks in all the sports to have a guy actually take his swing at it. But again, if this were a team that was just playing for the four seed or you were a wildcard team and you had to play all your guys to get in or if the one seed was within reach and you knew you needed to play. of your starters anyway. I wouldn't even bat an eye. I would probably say, hey, no matter what,

make sure this guy leaves this game with the record because they're locked into two-seat no matter what. I think the only starter of their core guys that needs to play on the offensive end is probably Jalen Hertz to get like a preseason level of a couple of series, get your feet wet before the playoffs and then everybody else can take a seat until of the first round. Well, that's the other thing, right? If you play Sequin, then you have to play the whole, you would play your first team offensive line. I feel like every time you think about how cool it would be, you just, you know, picture him grabbing an ankle. Exactly.

With the darkest day, the darkest days in Philadelphia. There's one reason to do it and a hundred reasons not to. Yeah, that's a good point. But it is against the Giants. I don't know. It just be a fun chance to just humiliate the Giants. But if you give the Giants time, they'll find a way to do it themselves. Yeah, would they take a little dive, you know?

Because I think he still, he was, by all accounts, he was a beloved teammate when he was there. They're probably like, man, our management's so stupid for letting this guy go. Could he get a couple of them? Just, you know, a couple, two quick 50-yard carries. He gives him a little, you know, plain ticket afterwards or compensates them in some way under the table. I don't know. If you're not going to play them, do this one favor for me, whoever operates the Philadelphia scoreboard at the big screen, play the hard-knock clips. Like, every quarter, just play another Seguan hard-knock clip with the Giants, like, trashing him. There you go. That would be a good idea. All right. My next one here is

best PR agent, whoever Mike McCarthy has working for him. And this has been the case for years. I mean, I don't know. We might need to hire whoever it is for the ring or NFL show. I just saw reports this morning that, you know what, Jerry better let him know. Like, are you going to keep him or not? Because this guy's going to be a hot commodity for all the other openings in the NFL. So he's in the final year of his deal. If they're not going to keep him, they need to let him know right away. It's great. And I remember this from when he got hired by the Cowboys. You know, it's like, this guy went to pro football focus and learned the ins and outs of analytics. And I was just like, where is this coming from? What's going on here? I watched Mike

McCarthy with the Packers. I know what's true and what's not. I don't remember a lot of stuff. I remember some stuff. And so you're seeing this again now. I don't know how he does it. I know the guys won a lot of regular season games. I'm not diminishing that. They have prior to this season, but it just feels like there's always a media blitz for this guy. Like, you would think, if you didn't know any better, you would think he was like a mix of Belichick and Bill Walsh

and Vince Lombardi all wrapped into one. And like, how has he not gotten the highest paid contract in NFL history from the Cowboys after this season? So yeah, Mike McCarthy, whoever you're doing, agent, PR, Mark, whoever is on your team making this happen every time your contract's up, fantastic job out of that. I mean, credit to him for getting guys to actually play hard,

but they're talking about him like he's freaking Mike Dicca in the 80s. Like, what is happening right now? He has never had a reputation for being the greatest motivator in the NFL. And then to your point of just like the PR and just kind of like the media machine that exists around him, I saw that he recently hired Don Ye as his agent, which was kind of like, I think that some of the PR makes a little bit of sense here. Tom Brady's former agent, you know, he's always done well with getting guys the deals that they're after. And I like that now they're kind of floating out the, hey, Jerry, if you don't

put a deal on the table, I'm going to go hit free agency. And this is not a credit to Jerry Jones or giving him anything that he doesn't deserve. But if I'm Jerry Jones, go hit free agency. Yeah, call the bluff. Take a hike. I mean, that's the thing. Like I was thinking, all right, fine, You can look at this pro football reference page from the previous three years. They've won 12 wins in a row. And then I thought about if I were a fan of a team that needed a coach and my team hired Mike McCarthy this cycle, how would I feel? If you're a bear's fan of Mike McCarthy is a hire. Oh my gosh.

What is your reaction? That would be the all-time comedy. I'm going to be honest. I don't hate it. I don't hate it. Really? Are you serious? Stephen loves watching quarterbacks throw double slant concepts.

I'm just saying he might get the ball out on time from Caleb if they get Mike McCarthy an old school West Coast offensive guy that might be what Caleb needs at the moment and if I'm going to throw another team out there that might not be, that's probably not going to fire its coach but Cincinnati Bengals could do worse than Mike McCarthy Oh God, I do not want to see Jamar Chase

Stuying that offense. Absolutely not. We deserve better than that. Jamar Chase needs to run like four different routes to be effective. It'll be fine. A double slant in the Bengals offense would actually actually be a very good play. We should aim higher. What is happening right now? What is happening with Ruiz right now, Deonti? What is going on? Did someone overtake his body? This must be the remnants of the holiday season. I think he's going soft on it. This is crazy.

I'm like, what is happening here? This is nuts. I've heard this man talk about Mike McCarthy before. It hasn't been like this. Joe Burrow can read out slant flat. Oh, my gosh. All right. That was my last one. Deontay, what do you got? You got anything else? So my last one is still kind of connected to the Eagles Cowboys game. This also kind of calls upon the Christmas Day game between the Ravens and the Texans. I'm calling this a confirming the old Adages Award between the Philadelphia Eagles and Baltimore Ravens as the second half, wearing guys' legs down. So hard to fit the run when the guy's just getting carry after carry after carry behind this offensive line. All the numbers do bear that out. Those are the two best teams in terms of success rate in the second half on rushes in the NFL this

year and I wouldn't I look by EPA. Not only is Philadelphia first, but the gap between Philly and Carolina at third and second half rushes is the same as the gap between the Panthers and Tampa Bay at 15th. So they are just absolutely killing teams, not just with being effective on the ground, but that's where the explosives come from for both Derek Henry and Sequin Barkley. And I think that that is something that is going to be part of the calculus in the matchups in the playoffs, is that you're going to have to deal with even in a cold weather environment, the fact that Baltimore might get a 10-point lead

and then go into 22 personnel and just run power and lead and duo with Derek Henry. And that's going to be something that all the teams in the AFC are going to have to contend with. And we obviously know how explosive Saquan Barkley can be in second half because we've been watching it down the stretch of this season week after week. So I do find it really fascinating seeing those two teams,

one of them having an elite quarterback, the other not, still be able to lean on their run game in the second half to be able to. put teams away in the way that we hear about, kind of as like old tropes in this sport. Well said. I mean, it's been, yeah, the year of the running back return, and you're right, what they do, they get leads. And then, yeah, like, Sequin early in this game, it was like, all right, it's not, you know, and then all of a sudden they're like, all right, this is the Sequin, Barclay Drive, you know, and all of a sudden, he's breaking off chunk

after chunk after chunk. All right, Ruiz, what do you got? What's next? I just wanted to pile on Aaron Rogers one last time. Is this? While you have the chance. This might be it. Right. This might have been the last time we saw him. First of all, the day starts with a report from Ian Rafferport

that Garrett Wilson will demand a trade if Aaron Rogers comes back, or a potential trade request if Aaron Rogers comes back. Which, I mean, when you watch Garrett Wilson in his body language, whenever he has to deal with Aaron Rogers, that tracks. This is the first case of ageism that I support. Yes, I agree with this. And, okay, Aaron Rogers also became the most sacked quarterback in NFL history today on a safety, no less.

So he lost some points and broke that record. He drew a late hit flag after throwing a terrible interception in this game. And then this is not really Aaron Rogers related, I guess. But did you guys see the Sauce Gardner response to the fan asking him to... Oh, the T. Higgins thing? I didn't see this. Tell me. So Sauce Gardner had a post about T. Higgins. It was like, pay that man or something after T. Higgins' big game against the Broncos.

And a fan in the comments, a Jets fan, was like, tell him to come to New York. And then Sauce was like, I will not be telling him to do that. Now, Sauce later, like, went to social media and was like, that's not why I was saying. I was saying it because we have Garrett Wilson and Devante Adams. But, like, neither of those guys are going to be in New York next year. You're now putting that toothpaste back into two, my friend. I think we all know what you meant.

Wow. There are two, like, cornerstone best draft picks in recent memory. And those are the, I really don't think. I think Aaron Rogers is done. I said it before. I think he's probably done as well. I think mentally he's probably done. I think physically, if he landed in the right spot,

he could give us another decent year of production. But no, I just don't see which team would sign up for that, and I don't think he would sign up for it. And just to add on to the accomplishments today, Aaron Rogers goes out down 40 to nothing, and Tyrod Taylor comes in and immediately leads two straight touchdown drives. And then they had to show Rogers on the sideline doing the claps. There were a lot of shots of him doing the, you know, trying.

Yeah, that was something. And that was a high scoring fourth quarter there. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't think Aaron Rogers is going to play in the NFL next year. That's just a guess. I just feel like the meshing of what he would want and what he brings to the table versus like a team wanting to bring that in. It just feels like a hard sell to me.

But we shall say, I just hope it's not one of those like annoying. It just drags out over and over. And we're getting in a report. I know. That is what's going to be right there. I'm signing off. I'm opting out. I'm opting out of those.

The best timeline is that he and Mike McCarthy make up for whatever differences they have and they both said we're a package deal in free agency. In Las Vegas with Tom Brady. That's the ideal circumstance. The only thing I'm like kind of wary of is a full-time media career for Aaron Rodgers. I'm not ready for that.

Let's give them another NFL season. Come on now. Could be the fourth person on the Ringer NFL. No, I don't think that's going to happen. All right. That'll do it for this episode. of the Ringer NFL show. Thank you to Deontay Lee. And Stephen Ruiz,

thank you to Christopher Sutton for producing additional production supervision by Connor and Evans, Arjuna Ram Gapal, and our poor Falcons fan helper, Dan Comer. Hang in there, Dan Comer. It was a nice touchdown pass by Michael Pennix, Jr.

All right, we, everybody, have a nice new year's. We'll be back at the end of this week, previewing a big week 18. Until then, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next time on the Ringer NFL show. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C.

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