The Ringer NFL Show - Week 4 Recap: The Bills Dominate the Dolphins, the Bengals and Patriots Get Blown Out, and Lamar for MVP? | Dual Threat

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Nora and Steven start by talking about the Buffalo Bills dominating the Miami Dolphins at home, 48-20. They discuss any concerns they have moving forward about the Dolphins, Josh Allen's incredible performance, and more. Then, they discuss their Week 4 winners and losers, including the Eagles, Texans, Bears, and Rams(20:01), before wrapping up with the take purge (1:12:11). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Eduardo Ocampo and Kiera Givens Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Nora Pinsiani. I'm Stephen Ruiz. And that was the first time we did that. We absolutely did not just try to start this podcast. And I entered the show and Stephen just like sat there on Zoom waiting. It's week four. It's Sunday night.

We just watched a very funny Chiefs Jets game. So did Taylor Swift. I don't know if you've heard. But we've got a lot to break down. And we are going to. start nowhere else. Then with the headline, it's Bill's Dolphins. It was the game of the week.

We knew it would be. And it absolutely lived up to it, even though this did not end up being a super competitive game. The Bills won 48 to 20. Stephen, where do you want to start here? Should we do a little Bill's offense? Should we do a little Dolphins defense? Other way around.

Talk to me. I honestly don't know because both sides just played so well. Let's start with the offense because this was one of the best Josh Allen performances we've ever seen. It was definitely the best Josh Allen and Stefan Diggs in tandem performance. Stefan Diggs averaged two EPA per target. Every time he got targeted, just added two extra two points to the board. Just two points.

I think we were talking midweek about how the way the Ravens offense is operating right now, a Lamar Scramble equals one point. Today, a Diggs target equals two points. That's pretty crazy. He had 120 yards, three touchdowns. just an unstoppable day. I mean, the play, the 55-yard touchdown score where he was wrapped up and then didn't go down and then just start scampering down the field and scores was like, I think so emblematic of just even the things that were going wrong were going right, but not a lot was going wrong. I don't, I've never, I don't know that I've seen a more impressive Bill's performance than this.

They only punted twice. And I think Allen had like a perfect quarterback rating or something. Just really impressive all around. Yeah, it reminded me of the opener last year when they played the Rams and the offense just did whatever it wanted to do. And eventually the defense shut down the Rams and it was like, holy shit, this is the best team in football. Like everything we talked about during the offseason was right. And after watching that Chiefs game, and I give the Chiefs the benefit of the doubt.

Like I'm not going to be concerned. about what happened on Sunday night. But after that game, I'm, like, Buffalo looks like the best team in the NFL. I mean, San Francisco on the other side, but we saw what happens when you put Josh Allen against another quarterback who, I mean, say what you want about, too, but we know he's not on Josh Allen's level. Yeah. And he kind of gets propped up to that level because the supporting cast is good and he's

a borderline top 10 quarterback. But, like, these are the games where you really see the difference between. having a guy at quarterback, having to do that you could build everything around and that can bill you out when everything goes wrong. And then having a guy that's kind of, I don't want to say a long for the ride because I think that's a little dismissive of what two is doing for this offense. But yeah, I agree. Like those guys, like it's hard to keep up when the elite guys play their A game. And I think we saw that today. That's like my big takeaway from this one.

So I agree. But I also think that Josh Allen got a lot more help from his defense than Tua got from his. right. The bill's offense is really good. And when they're on one like they were in this game, there's not a lot that you can do. I mean, Cater Coho, who's the guy who is unfortunately matched up against Diggs most of the day,

is supposed to be a slot receiver, is playing on the outside because Ramsey's hurt. And he's getting like dunked on all over Twitter right now. He played kind of a good game. Like he was in position on most of those throws. There just wasn't a lot that he could do. I mean, Diggs is bigger. He's more physical.

Like, he's just, he's going to win some of those. And I actually thought that it was kind of like, he certainly, look, he gave up like 120 receiving yards. So it was not a good day at the office. But he didn't, he doesn't deserve the, this was the worst performance on a football field on Sunday treatment that I think he's probably going to get just because the results of this. So to some degree, I. I don't, it was just a tough day.

But this Fangio defense is, is supposed to be able to play the good quarterbacks, limit the explosive plays. And so far, they haven't been particularly impressive and they really got taken a task. Do you think that there are defensive concerns for Miami coming out of this? Or was this just a really tough matchup in a bad day? I mean, I think it's a little bit of both. There are always concerns when you. give up that many points to a division rival.

And the team that you have to beat to win the division. But they're missing Jalen Ramsey, who's not going to come back for a couple months. Jalen Phillips didn't play in this game. That's two of maybe their three best defenders on the team, depending on how you feel about Wilkins and Holland. So, and they're playing on the road. And when Josh Allen plays like this, nobody can stop him. Nobody can slow him down.

So I'm less concerned about that. I think this Dolphins defense, what it looks like right now is not what it's going to look like come December, come January, if they make the playoffs, which I think they will. So I'm not overly concerned. I'm more concerned about what we saw on the other side of the ball. Because what this reminded me of was the 49ers game last year, where I thought Buffalo's defense played really well. And it wasn't like some bespoke game plan to stop down this offense that has just been

killing every defense they come up against. It was just, let's just play sound zone defense and played really hard and play with good dies and rush the passer and effect Tua. And that's how they beat them. They just out-executed them. They were just better than the Dolphins today. And it reminded me of that game. And we're seeing still flashes of when Tua has to make a play that that's when he struggles.

And in the playoffs, when you play against Josh Allen, when you play against Patrick Mahomes, you're going to have to make plays repeatedly every quarter. So I think that's the concern if you're a Dolphins fan is it's the same question we were asking last year when they were going good. what's the ceiling on this team with Tua at quarterback? That's not to take away from him. Like he's a borderline top 10 quarterback, maybe a top 10 quarterback. But you just see the gap between him and the other guys at the top of the, at the top of the hierarchy.

Well, and even not to make it completely about Tua, I think the question is what the dolphins need to prove and they've proved this is a team. They just scored 70 points last week. We were playing dolphin noises every 10 minutes. Like, it's okay. But the thing that they have not yet done, is find a way to respond and prove that they know how to respond when a defense disrupts their timing.

And not every defense is going to be able to do it. There's a similarity between why we're talking about that San Francisco game and why this game went the way it did, which is really good middle linebacker play. Because Tua can't throw where he's comfortable. He's not getting his, you know, his first read is covered. And it's messing up what what makes them unstoppable when they're unstoppable, which is when it's all working in rhythm,

there's kind of nothing you can do just because of the speed and the physicality and everything that we're talking about. It's really hard and there's only a handful of defenses in the NFL, I think, that are going to be able to, that you can rely on to be able to do that. But the ones who can, we need to see if we're going to, if Miami's going to live up to the expectations that that, team is quickly setting for itself because of how good their performances have been. That's the one thing that they have left to show is that they know what to do when that happens.

Because when the first read for two, which is usually middle of the field is not there, all of a sudden it seems like stuff goes haywire for there. And now, I mean, they had one and a half starting offensive linemen out because Toronto Armstead left with a knee injury midway through the game. this is an offensive line that through three weeks, they're not like a star-studded top of the league bunch, but they had done an incredible job of protecting Tua based on how the offense was operating.

He'd only been sacked once. And then all of a sudden, the bills find a way to do it. He faces 14 pressures. That's more than he faced in the first three weeks of the season combined and gets taken down for four sacks. So it does seem like we see this like, there is a little bit of a Jekyll and Hyde thing developing for Miami of when just everybody

being in sync gets disrupted and they haven't really shown that they have something else that they can rely on when that happens. But okay, here's Michael, we're saying they, but the person that's getting affected by their timing getting disrupted is Tua. It's not like Jalen Waddle can't run a route as a second option. Like, it's Tua. Like, that's what it is. They ran for 0.43 EPA per play on early downs.

They got a first down on handoffs, 44% of the time on early downs. A first down when they handed the ball off on first or second down, 44% of the time. Like, they had a running game. Like, who are we blaming this? Like, I know Armstead goes out, and that's kind of when things fell apart,

but you could see the cracks in the offense before then. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying it's mostly two and it's a little bit the offensive line. Yeah. And like I just think you need a quarterback that can do a plan B like that has a plan B. And like that's the one thing that the quarterback has to prove. And I don't think he's proven it. Like we can give him credit for the stuff that he's really good at.

Like the timing aspect of the offense, he's perfected. He's accurate. But we have to be honest about like what happens when his first read is taken away because it just keeps happening. Like when you watch the film, like that's what you see. So I don't. I, that's my big question. I ignore the rest of the team just because I think it's going to be different down the line. Like I think the offense around two is going to be fine going forward.

They have too much talent. Mike McDaniel's too good of a coach. I think the defense are going to figure things out. They're going to get guys healthy. McFangio's too good of a coach for this to be bad all year. But I can't say the same thing about two just because we'd never seen him do that thing. We've never seen him do the thing that we need him to do. There's a world in which this is worse, right?

because there was that throw, the throw over the middle that got bobbled twice, almost intercepted. And then it was Waddle who came down with it, which was one of the few throws in that area. Was it angled? No, no, I think it was Waddle. I don't remember, but I know, yeah,

Terrell Bernard had a chance to pick it. And then Trey White dropped an easy pick too, right, to them. Like, this could have been way worse. And that's what I mean by, like, you kind of saw the cracks before the armstead injury. Like, you, like, the offense, like, they were moving the ball, but they were like, every, like, third play, there would be a throw that was kind of like iffy into coverage and he kind of got away with it. I think there's a, I have more questions about the defense than you do.

Um, I think this offense, other than when facing specific defenses and very good defenses, because I do think this bill's defense is absolutely among the best in the league. I think Sean McDermott is, is, is proven. himself right to have sort of reasserted his role in in the defense and in the defensive play calling and they're just playing so fast. They look so feisty. That defensive line, which is about to get von Miller back, or at least he'll be activated and start practicing, is just so feisty. And they were so just fierce and quick and disruptive. So I think, think this is, you know, playing the bill's defense is every bit to me as big of a challenge as playing the Patriots defense, the Jets defense. They are really, really up there and they're playing fast. Tray White looks like he tore his Achilles. So that's a bummer. But you kind of win some,

you lose some with Miller coming back at the same time. That just sucked because of his injury history and seeing how upset he was on the field when he knew that something bad had happened. But overall, I just think this Bill's defense is really, really good. Yeah, they're getting the guys they need it to perform on the defensive line to perform. Like Ed Oliver looks like the guy they drafted in the top 10. Greg Russo has been disruptive. If they get Von Miller back and he's Von Miller, which I have no reason to believe that he's not going to be Von Miller because he's one of those guys, those freaks of nature that

just come back from injury and it like didn't even bother them. So yeah, this team, this team is really, really good. Can we talk about Ken Dorsey? Because that was a masterclass from him. Like the running game. You have the floor. Yeah, I've been preaching to the choir on this for like a year now. I think he's one of the better offensive coordinators in the NFL because I just think

that he finds ways to get the most out of their run game. And when they can run the ball, which they have been able to do the last couple of weeks, it just makes Josh Allen way more hard to defend because you have to allocate so many resources just to defending him because you have Stefan Diggs on the outside who if you don't double him he's going to get open and then you have Gabe Davis

if you don't put a safety over the top he's going to beat you downfield so that's two guys that you have to worry about and then Josh Allen can scramble that's a third thing you have to worry about and like you where are you getting the bodies from you have to put them deep to be able to defend all this

and then there's nobody in the box and if Dorsey can like game it up in the box, then this team can run. It's hard to stop. This is what it looks like. You don't stop it. When Josh Allen is like at his best, you just can't stop.

And the running game is going. You just can't stop Buffalo. And if he stays healthy and I'm talking about Allen, he could win MVP. I think there's a chance. Like with the way Mahomes is playing where he's kind of forcing things, you can tell. And he doesn't have the supporting cast that he's

used to. And Alan continues on this path. Like I wouldn't be surprised and I don't believe this. Like I think it's Patrick Mahomes than everybody else and there's a wide gap. But I wouldn't be surprised if there is a conversation asking, do we have to rethink whether it is Patrick Mahomes than everybody else? If Alan keeps playing like this, that's a big it. Their offense is more balanced, I think, than it's been in this era of Bill's football. And that has been that thing that they've been every year, sort of.

of trying to accomplish and trying to accomplish and trying to accomplish. And credit where it's due after we talked about it midweek, I saw those tight ends making some blocks chipping here and there, helping out, doing their part. I guess. It's one week. How do you, I mean, this is, those are Ken Dorsey's tight ends. Those are Ken Dorsey's 12 personnel said, Stephen.

I don't know. I have to play both sides. I don't know how I'm going to do it. It's going to keep getting harder and harder if they keep playing like this to keep up The 12 personnel thing is bullshit. But I mean, it didn't work today. And the reason why they built the offense like this was to attack defenses like this, like a Vic Fangio, we're going to drop back.

We're going to play soft zone. And you better be able to run on us. And if you can't, then you're going to score like 13 points and you're going to probably go on 10 play drives and pun it all the time. And that's not what happened. They were able to run the football. And we saw what happened. The floodgates just opened.

Do we need to reevaluate? the Josh Allen panic that ensued after week one. I'm re-evaluating it for myself. I'm just feeling silly. I'm feeling silly, too. He just does that. It just, it happens. Okay, here's the thing.

Why do we forget these things? Because he ended, like, last year on that, on, on that decline. Like, that's what we saw all of last year from, like, November on. Yeah, but he was hurt. Like, it's the simplest thing in the world. He hurt his elbow. And then I'm not talking, I'm not yelling at you here. I'm yelling at me.

He hurt. hurt his elbow and then immediately after he hurt his elbow, his play changed for the worst. And it was like, what's going on with Josh Allen? He's hurt. He's flipping hurt. Yeah. And then he had one weird game against the Jets, which by the way, Patrick Mahomes just did. Let's just remember this moment. Let's just sit here and soak it in and remember that the Josh Allen experience is undeniable and it ebbs and it flows and I'm going to try to be very zen the next time something crazy happened. It didn't get that bad and he did deserve it after that first game. Like it didn't get that bad. You remember when Patrick Mahomes was kind of struggling and like the Spotrack guy

posted his his contract details like it was a bad contract. He's like, oh God, they have 200 million a dead money left. That was so funny. They never got that bad. That was this. That was as funny as seemingly ranch. It was so good. All right. All right. This is just a message from me to me about keeping my cool. Okay.

The bills are fun. I just, I love a high scoring bills game. I'm giving you a break, though. I'm giving week one nor a break. I just, I just really got wrapped up in the moment. months straight. Yeah. And there was an off-season stewing on it.

And then the first time you see him, he did the thing again. Like, I can't blame you. Yeah. All right. Shall we take a quick break? Come back. Get to winners and losers? Yeah, let's do it.

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Well, almost, almost anything. A new fantasy team, no. Coffee beans, nachos, Supreme, and shaving cream. yes. Uber Eats is an easy win. So let's talk about the other winners and losers this week. Steven, do you have a winner up first for me or I think you'd said something about needing to go in a different direction to kick off the segment? No, no, I'm going to keep it negative. I'm going to name a loser and I'm going to make the commanders my my loser for two reasons. I had two calls in particular. Ron Rivera, okay, so the Eagles take a lead, 3124, late in the fourth

quarter. Jalen Hertz hits A.J. Brown. He beats Emmanuel Forbes down the sideline. It looks like the game's over. Sam Howe leads the commanders down, scores on the last play of the game. They're down by one, and they kick the extra point. And that's where I have the problem. Riverboat Ron did not live up to his nickname. He doesn't go for two there. Like the Eagles have all the momentum. They're the better team, clearly. You're on the road. That's when you go for two. You just need to get two yards and you win the football game against a better team on the road against the NFC champs. They kicked the extra point. And then what really upset me was Jack Del Rio in overtime. The Eagles have the ball around like, I want to say it was like the 45 yard line.

Third or yeah, third and long. Jackdale Rio, first of all, okay, the Eagles need five yards to get into field goal range into Jake Elliott's range. Jack Del Rio plays cover zero, has his secondary eight yards off and just gives up the five yards. One of the worst calls I've ever seen considering the situation. Like they only needed five yards and you just gave it to him. So the coaching staff for Washington, Eric Bianney me is excluded from this. He doesn't count. Yeah, he doesn't count.

So I'm giving the Washington coaching staff to help for this one. I bang the gavel. He doesn't count. And somehow the Eagles are four and O. The Eagles haven't played a good game all year and they're four and no. This team is amazing. That's how talented this team is. They don't even have to play well and they just beat everybody.

The whole narrative about the Eagles going into the season was that their strength of schedule was so much harder this year. Oh, oh, I had Isaiah play that because the Dolphins scored every 20 minutes this time. And I just wanted to point out that they didn't score a lot. We were only going to do it once, though. That was this, Norton had no idea about that. I'd DMed Isaiah. I can't believe you did that. I can't believe you guys schemed that up.

But for a second, I thought it was an eagle. I really, I mean, shouldn't we get like a buffalo noise? Well, it's not going on that path. I bet your Achilles is feeling a little bit better, though, after hearing that. Really healthy, really, really healthy. But yeah, the Eagles just continue to win. Doesn't matter. They're playing better.

Like, they have this much harder, harder schedule. They are looking worse. They're just still winning the game. It's incredible. It's a great, it's a great way to make a living. I did not see the end of game situation here live, but I saw Ron Rivera answering questions about it. And he said that he didn't go for two because the team was tired, which I thought was a tough

explanation. You had to play more football in overtime. Yeah, you had to play more football in overtime. Also, you're the coach. So maybe have them do a few more. more win-sprints because the Eagles are probably also tired. But historically speaking, one of the things that helps teams win games in end-of-game situations is being the better conditioned squad out there.

So I don't know that it's like a great reflection on the coaching job that's going on down there in the rolling hills of Virginia. If it's like, well, our guys were just really beat there. So we had to send the kicker out there and we figured we would live for overtime. and, you know, it didn't work out for us, but we'll get back out there. Are you saying this was a training camp loss? They didn't work hard enough. No wonder why Eric Bienemy was yelling at them every play.

Yeah, I like. Yeah, I am. I am saying it was a training camp. No, I'm saying it was a training camp loss type of excuse. Okay. Like, I have no idea if that's true or not, but it's just a weird thing. It's a weird thing to say. This is one of my pet peeves is coaches blame.

things that are their job. Like, that's your responsibility. I got to talk about the origin story of the riverboat Ron nickname. Okay. Because the national media just ran with it and ruined it. The reason why Panthers fans gave him that nickname, it was ironic. We were being sarcastic. We had Cam Newton and like he never went for it on fourth and one with the game on the line.

He just never did it. And then he finally did it in the Panthers won. And then everyone joked. It was like, oh, Riverboat Ron. And then everyone in the national media just thought we were being serious. And now they call them that. And he doesn't go, he never takes chances. He does it like sometimes.

He's like a defensive-minded, historically conservative coach. Yeah. And every time he goes for it on fourth and one in the most obvious situation, everyone's like, oh, riverboat, wrong strikes again. No, you're making, we're supposed to be making fun of him. He doesn't do it enough. And it happened again. That's a good bit.

That's a really good bit. I blame the national media. like, you are the national media. I want to start saying, I want to start using Riverboat Ron when he like calls a draw. He does that. Just like the most basic, like, oh, run on second and eight. Riverboat Ron, add it again. It seems like AJ Brown on good old Mani Forbes was was a tough one for the Slim Reaper.

Yeah, he probably shouldn't have talked shit to AJ Brown because AJ Brown is like 100 pounds heavier than him and better at football than him. And that played out on the field. Like Forbes made a couple of good plays. I think they were bad throws more than they were like good coverage. But he got really confident early on. And then it was just all downhill from there. And that's what this game was about. It was about this looked like last year's Eagles team.

Last year's Eagles offense. the running game wasn't really there, like the quarterback run game, and that hasn't been there all year, and it's kind of something that we've ignored. Jalen Hertz, has, like, a Jalen Hertz design run has been one of the worst plays in football this year by the numbers. He's averaging negative 0.41 EPA per play, 31% success rate.

That's not good. Both of those numbers are basically cut in half from last year. So, like, that's an issue with this team. I don't know if that's necessarily Jalen Hertz or the coaching staff, the new play caller, but he looks a little slower. whenever he pulls the ball and he's not like making people miss it's it's kind of concerning but like in the passing game this looked exactly like last year like there were the the vertical balls and it hurts threw them really well today uh and then he made he made some throws over the middle but

it wasn't too much and then like the traditional run game was really working they were getting a lot of push on the ground they ran the uh the kuby sneak like four times and it worked every time they even had like a counter off of it where hurts took it outside and got a first down so that was, I guess that was funny going up against Jack Del Rio after he complained midweek. But like, the passing game looked like last year, but the running game does not. Did he, did he complain about the, he complained about the tush push? Uh, kind of. I feel like people were kind of tough on him. He was just like, I don't really like it. It's not really like football, but it's legal and they run it really do about it. Which is like true. Like that's what I would say about it. It's like not like a

fun play to watch, but they're really good at it. And they're the reason that it works so well. Okay. Other teams try to run it doesn't work. It's not a fun play to. to watch is different from it's not football. It's giant people trying to be like tougher and stronger and push bodies across each other better than their opponents. That's football. That's rugby. Sorry.

That's like the whole thing. Okay. If you were like, if you quizzed like a random football fan and you said drawl up a football play, nobody would draw the tush push. So I agree with Jack Del Rio on this one. Sorry. And this is the only time I will ever agree on Jack Del Rio on anything. Clip that.

Clip that. Not cover zero calls and not redacted it. All right. So Stephen Ruiz, I start saying this in my entire microphone setup starts falling over. Stephen Ruiz agrees with everything Jack Del Rio does. You heard it here first. All right, I've got a loser for you.

Okay. It's Bill Belichick and the New England Patriots. They lost 38 to 3 to the Cowboys. This was the worst loss of the Belichick era. It's his worst loss as a coach. Never lost by more than 31 points. They lose by 35. There is literally nothing good you can say about this game for the Patriots.

I do not think that Bill Belichick is on the hot seat simply because I do not think that Robert Kraft wants to be the guy who fires Bill Belichick. But he's absolutely in for a horrific week of do we trust Bill anymore? Has Bill lost it coverage in New England and probably nationally? Um, Mac Jones got benched in the third quarter of this game after three turnovers, two and a half of which were like the dumbest things I've ever seen on a football field. He got strips sacked, just had no awareness of the defender coming behind him. Um, that was like pretty messy, but sort of forgivable. Throws a pick six towards the end of the first half when the game was like still kind of within reach on just an awful crossbody.

cross the field throw. The second interception was when the game was out of hand and it wasn't quite as bad. But Dallas still got 18 points off the turnovers. He gets benched for Bailey Zappy. Zappy can't really do anything either. The game's lost by that point. Belichick after the game said that there was no sense in leaving Mack in that he wasn't benched for performance, although of course he was, but that he will be the starter going

forwards. It's not that there's a quarterback controversy. It's just that the game was out of hand. But this offense is inept again. They've shown some stuff. We've talked about it where it looks like things make a little bit more sense than they did last season at times, but not, not today. I mean, he was getting nothing but like single high looks where the cowboys were just like, I dare you to complete a deep pass. I dare you to come up with something explosive and could not take any slice of advantage. They were, I mean, they were swarming the run game,

had all of the short stuff covered up. He wasn't even, Mac wasn't even pressured on either pick. Like, he was just, like, creating horrific plays out of thin air. I mean, you can tell me if you think I'm being too tough here, but this was like a, a, of, really disheartening game. If you're a team that just spent your entire offseason going, well, it's going to be better.

The offense is going to be better. It has to be better. It has to be better. Right. They had penalties. Defensively, I mean, obviously, look, a lot of the points were defensive or the short field set up the turnovers, but they still gave up 38 points. They're two best defensive players.

Christian Gonzalez and Matt Judon both had injuries. Judon's, at least, is serious Adam Schaeffey reporter that he has a lower bicep tendon tear. There wasn't, to me, that sounds like a very long-term injury, but I'm not totally sure because it wasn't reported with that. But that looked bad. So I don't know what you take from this other than it was indeed the worst loss of the Belichick era. Yeah, I mean, I think there's something very easy to take away from this, and that's like the Mac Jones experiment is over. Like there's no way that you can go into next year with this and thinking it's going to be get better. At this point, you change the OC. Like the Cardinals have scored 33 more points than the Patriots have this year. You can complain about the supporting cast all you want. Josh Dobbs has a worst supporting cast and he's scoring more points right now. Like at a certain point, it falls on the quarterback when you,

you don't have other options. You know what you can do if you have Anthony Richardson, for instance? You could just run the option and now you have a viable offense. That's why you don't draft these guys in the first round anymore. That's why teams stop doing it. Like the biggest criticism I have of Bill Belichick is that he drafted this guy in the first round three years ago. I think that's what this game proves.

Like you don't, it's just so hard to run an offense when your quarterback isn't elevating everyone around them. And like at this point, we're three years in, he's clearly not that guy. been everything like he was built to build to be coming into the league like he's the accurate guy you can process kind of quick but like the reason why he's failing is like the reasons why you could have predicted three years ago so like this was a bad draft pick and it set this team back a couple years i don't even think i don't think you can totally like because that's one bad decision right and i think it's the quarterback i get what you're saying and yeah but you can't then you have to

try go out and if you're going to spend your entire offseason talking about how the offense is going to be better and all these things are going to change go out and get him elevators. I mean, not every quarterback in the NFL is Josh Allen or Lamar or one of these guys. Or Josh Jobs. There's a world in which you have to figure out a way to do a little bit more with less. and they have not, I mean, they have not tried as hard as they could to add significant receiver talent. I do think part of this goes back to just the massive failure of last year where Mac Jones is never going to be a guy who's going to go get you to a Super Bowl on his own or anything like that or anything close to that. But for him to look so skittish when he wasn't even being pressured,

has to have something to do with the fact that that he's just been in an inept system and the coaching is weird and it's changed every year and things are not going in the right direction because he looks he looks scared and he looks tentative and he looks like he's just sensing pressure coming left and right Dallas is a really good defense. Cardinals game aside maybe the takeaway here is just maybe Josh Dobbs is just like there's no stopping Josh Josh. Maybe he's the answer. But I, they're messy. The penalties are bad.

The turnovers have been this incredibly consistent thing. Like I just, there's just no more excuses. I think like, and maybe I'm making like this into like some big picture thing and I'm like forcing it. But like I think my main takeaway from the failed Mac Jones experiment and like looking back at that 2021 draft is. just like, we need to start counting it against quarterback prospects when they can't run. Yes.

It has always been looked at as like a luxury. And I think now it's more than that. If you don't have that, like you're leaving something on the table compared to everyone else. Because everyone else can do it. Like that's my main takeaway is like, yes, they don't have enough talent, but the quarterback isn't giving them extra options. And that's what you want from a quarterback. It doesn't have to be like mobility either.

like Joe Burrow, when they couldn't run, and I like, I know the offense, this isn't a great example now because the offense stinks. But like last year when they needed to fix the offense, they could do the RPO stuff because like Burrow was really good at it. And like that fixed the run game. Maybe that's the answer with Mack because that's certainly what he did in college, although it was like a different type of RPO. But like what else can he give you? Like what else is he bringing to the offense? He's not really bringing anything to the offense at this point. And like you can make the argument that even at his best during his rookie year. He wasn't bringing much to the offense then either. It was like a really schemeed up screen heavy, trick play heavy, reverses, like all of these like constraint plays to like make offense easier. And like the last two years we've seen him put in a big boy offense. Like you have to play like a real quarterback. And he's just shown every time he does not have it in him to do that.

He doesn't have. I'm totally with you that look, he's a limited quarterback. and he's maybe the wrong guy to try to build your team around. But this should be better than it is. I mean, he's not like, he's not Zach Wilson. Sorry, bad example. Zach Wilson's fixed now. I don't know if you've heard.

Yeah. No, I get what you're saying. He shouldn't look this bad. Yeah, it hasn't been very good. Team building hasn't been very good on that side of the ball. There's just nothing that's been very good. I mean, you know, again, congratulations on your, on your good. defense that just got, I mean, not 38 points, but 38 minus 14 points hung on it.

All right. Something more lighthearted. Give me a winner. My first winner is the Texans. And we have to start talking about the Texans because they might be good. I asked that like a question and I don't know the answer. Are the Texans? Are the Texans going to win the AFC South?

They might. No, they're not going to win it. But like that's, they're good football. team. Two weeks in a row, they've looked like a good football team. And this week, it was not like fluky at all. I think you can make the argument last week, the Jaguars kind of beat themselves. But this week, like the Texan was just dominated from start to finish. And to be honest with you, it wasn't C.J. Shroud's best game. Like he was very good. Like as for a rookie, he was very good. But like, it was the rest of the team this time. The defense looked really good.

Tomiko Ryan's is coaching his ass off. Bobby Sloick, the offensive coordinator who came over with him from San Francisco. This is like throwback 49ers offense, like early Jimmy G era offense and everything's working. The run game's working. Damien Pierce had 81 yards and 24 carries. Stroud went 16 of 30 for 306, not the most efficient day, but he made a couple of plays. This is a good team. Like, I don't know they're going to win like nine, ten games, but they might win like six or seven.

And that's more than we expected. And like every everything they did in the offseason, all the big moves. all working out so far. Yeah, I mean, it's good enough to kind of stick it to the folks, myself included, who were really concerned about the draft trades because if they were going to be a really, really bad team, having given up that capital was going to be super valuable. Might work out better than it seems like it would.

I'm seeing a lot of fire mat Canada going around. What's what was the Steelers offense doing in this little shindig? It wasn't good. The play calling is terrible. They're just putting, they're putting Kenny Pickett in situations that Kenny Pickett is never going to be thriving. Like he's never going to be good in those situations. They're putting him in third long because they're not giving him easy layups on first and second down.

They're throwing bubble screens, which don't work. Like, keep throwing bubble screens against NFL defenders. You're going to be in second and seven for the rest of your life. And like, that's like, how they live. I think that's the problem. Like, it's very clear that Kenny Pickett isn't like some franchise elevator, but he's better than he's shown. Like, I think he's.

There's no reason for them to be throwing behind the line of scrimmage more than any other NFL offense. No, there isn't. And like, I feel like when you get him in those situations, you kind of feed into the worst parts of Kenny Pickett's game. When you get him into third and long, that's when you're thinking, like, I got to make a play. I got to get a first down over punning.

And he's too anxious still, like to get outside of the pocket. He got hurt on this one. He ran into a sack. The knee injury, we still don't know, like, the seriousness of it, but it looked bad. He held his knee almost immediately. He looked like he was in major pain. It was tough, but, I mean, it's almost a better thing that he's not stuck in this offense for the rest of the year if he is out, because this is not good for his development.

It's forcing bad habits upon him that he already had. It's like reinforcing those bad habits. All right. I've got a winner for you. A Sunday night football winner. The real one is Donna Kelsey, mother famously, of Travis and Jason, who got to see an Eagles win in Philadelphia and then hop right up to New York or more accurately, New Jersey, and see the chiefs pulling out against the Jets, 23 to 20. Donna's saving grace here was Patrick Mahomes as a scrambler. He had the third and 22 run that he picked up, which was just a very, very funny Mahomes play.

But then the third and eight scramble with two minutes remaining basically won the game for them. I'm sure there are some people who are not pleased that he went out of bounds instead of scoring the touchdown. We might work with one of them. It's possible that we work with one of them. I love watching Mahomes as a runner. It's just so funny. He looks like a chicken. but it's so effective.

That said, I do have a question for you, which is, did Mo Holmes have to win this game kind of using his legs? And Isaiah Pacheco and the rest of the running game was also the most effective part of Kansas City's offense. Because we're maybe going to have to ask some questions about if he's healthy. Maybe. I just thought the interceptions were weird. I didn't know if they were like, oh, he's not 100%. It was just like he feeling himself.

So he like last week he he hobbles off the field. Right. Yeah. And then it did seem like all of the ball was coming out weird. Yeah. That's a good point. Even beyond some of the picks, it just seemed like not Mahomesian and a little wobbly. I'm not saying he's definitely hurt or anything like that.

It just it at least made me want to ask the question because something didn't look right there. Maybe part of that is just adjusting to them being more shorthanded in. the past catching department and in front of Taylor Swift, no less. He couldn't really get it working with Kelsey, who obviously is their sort of primary passing game target. So it at least, it brought it up. But the Jets defense is also is good and was forcing turnovers and being disruptive. Yeah.

The defensive line dominated the game. I think there are questions about the chiefs offense going forward. I don't know if we need to ask them right. Now, I just feel like when they play a better team, though, it's going to be more of an issue. I think they'll be able to survive out with this offense right now for the rest of the year. But I do think it's fair to start out. A better team than the Zach Wilson Jets. Now that Zach Wilson is fixed and is the second coming of Aaron Rogers.

They went on the road into Zach Wilson's house and they beat him. Not many people can say that. Not many people can say that. I mean, there's a Donna Kelsey, Zach Wilson joke in there somewhere, but I'm going to, I'm going to pass up that opportunity. Is Zach Wilson back? Was Zach Wilson ever here? I mean, he was drafted second overall. Like, this is what, imagine going back in time and showing like a Zach Wilson Jets fan this game, just this game and nothing, none of the context going, this is what your future is.

This is the funniest thing about it. Yes, there's like, there's all this talk about, whoa, Zach Wilson played really well. He keeps playing like that. First of all, it was like three good drives in the second half. Second of all, he fumbled the game away. I cannot wait to see the number of people who watched the Sunday night football game and just know that there are like 8 million Swifties who tuned in to see Taylor who have come away with the impression that Zach Wilson is just really, really impressive.

And he's like a real gamer and he didn't quite have enough and it was a tough mistake at the end of the game. But man, this guy's really showing something. Yeah. They probably think he's better than Mahomes. They're like, this Mahomes guy, all he can do is run. He can't throw. imagine if you could throw like Zach Wilson, imagine what Kelsey would be doing. So good. It's so good. That's a real thing. It's a real, real thing.

I personally don't think Zach Wilson is back. Like, I think this was just one of those games where, like, credit to Nate Hackett. Nate Hackett called a great game. We make fun of Nate Hackett a lot on the show. I do specifically. But he called a great game. And he kept, I think we talked about this before. I think it was a couple weeks ago where they could really do Zach Wilson a favor if they just call easier passes on first down and don't put them in third and long. And I think they did a really good job of that of mixing the run game, mixing the past game, making it all look the same. Like that's the key to this offense when it's going good. And I thought we finally saw that this week. So like that, like I'm more hopeful for Nate Hackett going forward more than like Zach Wilson. I think Nate Hackett had a better game than Zach Wilson tonight. Man, we are within like three or four plays from going in to, Jets Broncos, with the Jets having pulled off a triumphant Zach Wilson-led win against the defending

Super Bowl champions and the Broncos not having won a game and just everything being a disaster. And there's part of me that's sad that we don't get to live in that universe and just just to hear the takes, just to see what happens. But we do live in a universe where he gets to play the Broncos defense, which is really, really bad. And Vance might turn him into like a, he might convince some Jets fans. that there's a chance. Like, if they're feeling,

feeling it a little bit after tonight, like, it's hard because they lost. If they would have won, I think it would have just been Zach Mania for the next week. But if he, like, puts up 30 points and, like, has, like, a Sam Howell game against Denver, there's going to be some articles written. In fairness,

I think we were rightfully making fun of the idea that, like, Zach Wilson is completely fixed and is now a great quarterback. I've never seen Zach Wilson look, like, look that competent. and capable in a professional football game. Like, let's accurately describe what that means and what it doesn't mean, but he showed a little something, something. And he deserves, I suppose, for that to be acknowledged.

Yeah, he looked like a competent player. I was going to say starter. He doesn't look like a competent starter yet. But he looks like a competent NFL quarterback at this point, which is more than you could say about his last couple of years. what do you think Rogers thought of this game I think Rogers thought man I gave a really good speech to the team the other night I think Rogers 100% thinks this was all him

I couldn't quite figure out how like they don't win but Wilson and the offense look a little bit more feisty than they have I can't figure out how that fits into what Aaron Rogers wants out of out of this year and out of this time. It looks like a team whose offensive coordinator finally showed up to one of the games. Like I think they went into the year

thinking he was going to be the offensive coordinator. He finally showed up to a game. You think that was a body double up in the suite? He had the phone. He was texting the whole game. He was probably texting Nate Hackett. He was texting the whole day. Texting Hackett. Run the good plays.

It worked. He's going to be back, I think, after their bye week. So we'll see. we'll have to watch that. If the Jets suddenly improve after that point, we'll know why. Yes or no,

you got to call it right now. When he comes back, will he have a headset and a play sheet? He's definitely going to have a headset. He's going to have a headset. Do you think he's going to ask for a copy of the play sheet? He doesn't need one. You know,

like those fans that dress up like the coach? Like there was a Dolphins fan who was dressed up like Mike McDaniel last week and I think there was like an Andy Reid guy a couple years ago. That's what he's going to be. It's really funny. He's going to dress up his hack it.

My next loser is the Bengals who lost 27 and 3. And my loser, my L goes out to the Bengals coaching staff. Like, what is this? That's a serious question. I need an answer. What is this? I don't know if you saw Joe Burroughs' next-gen passing map, but it was embarrassing. Like, he should not be playing football.

For all the reasons we talked about during the midweek show, his calf is clearly not right. They can't go under center. They ran one play from under center this week. And that's worse than running zero plays. It's weird that you ran only one. Why do you only have one? And then they run only one pistol play. It's weird.

Why are you doing this? Like just commit to the shotgun bit all the way. For us to know that Zach Taylor doesn't listen to the, doesn't listen to the midweek show. He needs to because they got nine yards on that play on the pistol play. It was their best play. It was their best play. Yeah, it was their best play of the day.

And like last week when they ran the one pistol play, they got like 46 yards. So it's averaging like, I'm doing the math real quick in my head, like 30 yards of play. Do that. But like this is not working. Loser Bengals coaching staff winner only when the Bengals are in pistol. Yes. Bengals pistol still a winner. But Bengals pistol equals Lamar scrambling out of 11 equals Stefan Diggs targets.

Yes. But, okay, so here's my real issue. It's starting to affect Big Luz defense now. And that's when I really get upset. Because they have them long. They lead the league in three and outs. So this defense, which has just been carrying this team, which has been working so hard,

has been on the field more than any other NFL team. And like you're starting to see it take a toll on them. And I think this was the worst game. This is the worst team to play when you're getting grinded down as a defense. playing the Derek Henry Titans. And like Derek Henry looked like Derek Henry. His touchdown run, his first touchdown run, I think he only had one and then he threw a touchdown.

But his first touchdown run was like vintage, he bounced off like five Bengals defenders and then just ran into the end zone. They didn't have a chance. And I honestly don't think the defense played that poorly considering the score. Like they gave up 27 points, but I don't think it was on them.

They were just on the field all day long. And the offense just doesn't compliment them at all. they're making it hard to play for the defense. And I think, like, that's the problem I have with this approach. Even beyond, go beyond like the Joe Burrow health thing, like protect Joe Burrow. Go beyond that. But you're playing this style of offense that doesn't complement your defense at all and makes things just super hard on them.

And that's just not how you play football. Like, that's not what winning coaches do. And if you don't, if this is all it's going to be, sit him. Right. Because it's not working. Like, there's no. This isn't working. And if this is all you're going to do, it's pointless.

You get an actual benefit. There's a real, no other, like, this is some real galaxy brain silver lining shit. But like, no other football team, well, I guess you could argue this, can say that it's of benefit to them to sit their starting quarterback. That is of tangible value to the Bengals right now. Just let him sit and get better and rest the calf. if you're not going to do that, you better have a better reason for it than this. Right.

Then losing by 24 points to the Titans, who I mean, like Tannahill had a good, like sort of vintage Tannihill Day. Derek Henry looks like Derek Henry. I think, you know, I think we've seen those guys best football

and this isn't a super competitive Titans team, but I believe in Vrabel's ability to coach a good game and be steady. And those are good players who know what they're doing. and sometimes they're going to have good, good days, particularly when they get eight bigillion chances at it because they're not playing an opponent whose offense is putting up much of a fight. I don't understand why someone in Cincinnati, and it shouldn't be Joe Burroughs job, but I don't

understand at this point why he's not saying, if we're going to do it like this, what is the point of sending me out there? I mean, players don't, it's really hard to get a player into a situation where he's going to be like no sit me, but it just seems like nobody is taking the wheel there. And the problem is like especially this week, the running game was working, but they called 15 early down runs to 26 early down passes. Their running game average 0.08 EPA per play with a 67% success rate. Their pass game on early downs minus 0.19 EPA.

Like the run game was working more and they still leaned into this like pass heavy, put everything on Joe offense, which makes no sense at this point. It's not working. It's exposing him to more injury because he's taking these huge hits in the pocket. I don't know if you caught any of this game, but he took like three big hits because he couldn't move. Yeah. So like there's just so many layers to this.

And it just makes no sense that he's playing. And he was still in the game when they were down by like 24 points late in the game. It just, it seems like paralysis or something. And I mean, I do think it comes back to Taylor, who just hasn't really been, has been an NFL coach in a way where he's experienced a lot of early success doing that. So maybe part of we're seeing is just sort of like the shit is hitting the fan in a new way. And he doesn't know what to do.

But that's what it looks like. It just looks like he doesn't have the sort of, you know, I don't want to say something stupid like guts or courage or whatever. It's not that, like, it's not that deep. But the conviction to say, we've got to sit the quarterback for a couple of weeks here because this isn't working or to change what they do. It seems like he, he has an idea of what his offense with this team is. And they just will not, like, it is the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And it can be hard to change. And I think we see this a lot in coaching where they're just hoping that the thing that they do is going to somehow miraculously start working. But it's,

it's not like the clues are subtle here. They scored three points. It's not even like this was like a classic Mike Rable game plan either. Like defensively, I mean, I didn't watch the film. I just watch the broadcast angle. It's kind of tough to see from that, but it just looked like they were playing normal zone coverage. It wasn't even like they had to sell out to stop Burrow and trick them like all the other teams that we've seen in the past do. It was just like, all right, we're just going to drop back. We're going to let you run the ball. We're going to let you throw it underneath. And then eventually you're going to have to make a play. And we know you're not going to be able to make a play because your offensive line won't hold up and you can't move. That was the whole game

plan. And it worked to hold them to three points. This is very easy to replicate going forward for other defenses. Right. Right. Here's another bad coaching job. The Bears lost 31 to 28 to the Broncos, blew a 28 to 7 lead. And we've had some conversations about how so much has gone wrong in Chicago that it's sort of hard to pin it on one thing. But I can pin this loss on one thing, which is Matt Iberflus blew this game. Justin Fields finally looked at least somewhat comfortable against a Broncos defense that got 70 points on them last week. So like, let's not get carried away with that. But he did look somewhat comfortable.

They found some explosive plays. They had six passes of 20 plus yards. They built up of 28 to 7 lead. And then all you've got to do, all your defensive head coach and your defensive play caller has to do is just hold on to the lead. You're in a great situation. You're a super advantageous situation. And they couldn't do it.

They could not do it. They let, you know, Sean Payton and the Broncos and Russell Wilson score three straight touchdowns. Offense sort of fell apart and couldn't stay even. And, but I think that that goes on, you know, you have a defensive minded head coach. He's your defensive play caller. That's on you. There were weird, there were some weird decisions made on fourth downs. There's the weird situation with Chase Claypool.

where after the game, you know, he's not with the team. Then after the game, Aberflus is talking about it and he seems surprised that he's getting questions about it. And he says that some of the issues that Claypool has had sort of getting, like, working with the team or being part of the offense are that I think he's working to learn the offense

and doing a good job with that. Like, again, it's the same thing. You're the coach. If he doesn't know the system by now, you are not doing your job. like Josh Dobbs and the Cardinals are out here making it work. The cringe Lord. And this is like the Cringe Lord and Josh Dobbs.

I need a Cringleard reference in every episode. We're never going to talk about a Cardinals game, but I'm going to make a reference every episode. We're going to like accidentally talk about a Cardinals game every episode. This is just like it's totally inexcusable. The defensive collapse I think falls on his shoulders. the sounding totally clueless about one of the biggest situations going on with your team with a receiver that you gave up significant draft capital for like get it together man i mean

what exactly is it that you do here so another disappointing bears loss at a time when that team could have used a win because the vibes could not be worse and he blew it his defense blew it he didn't call a good game couldn't hold on to a 28 to 7 lead and I just think that you don't really have to make it more complicated than this is a loss that goes on coaching. Also, it's really embarrassing to lose like the second half adjustment battle to Vance Joseph at this point. Like you said, they just been giving up like 50 points a game to the worst quarterbacks around the league. Vance Joseph has been gaslighting fan bases across the league thinking they have, making them think they have a franchise quarterback. Sam Howell, now Justin Fields.

it's bad. And Matt Everflews, to go back to your original loser, they've had the worst defense in the NFL, like in every single metric since he's been hired and he's a defensive coordinator, our former one. Like this is what we can ignore all of the mess that that offense is. The defense is even worse by the numbers. Yeah.

And we like never talk about it. That's how bad the offense is. It's been years. Like get some players. I know the rebuild is on, but like, you can't at this point still be using the excuse of, well, everybody's, you know, we're just trying to teach the system. Everybody's got to get used to. There's a lot to learn.

There's a lot of change. Like, do your job. You want to end on a happier note? Oh, yeah. I have the Rams and the Colts as my last winner. I'm going to give them both a win. They both lost, but I'm going to give them both. This was a very enjoyable game to watch because of the quarterbacks.

Both of these quarterbacks, like their stat lines don't look like the best. Anthony Richardson goes 11 for 25, 200 yards, two touchdowns, 10 carries, 56 yards. I don't care about the stats. Watch this game and watch some of the plays that Anthony Richardson made. I tweeted out a throw that he made where he's like in the pocket and does like, it's like a half jump, almost hook shot type throw. And it goes 50 yards downfield right to the receiver. It's insane.

and he made like four plays like that. And then Matthew Stafford, this is the best I've ever seen him look. Like he looks skinny. He looks athletic. He's been scrambling more. Skinny Stafford. He's more efficient in the pocket. Like he's not as jittery as he once was.

Like that was always his thing in Detroit is he would get a little skittage. And now that's just not happening anymore. He's so calm. And they're getting Cooper Cup next week. And Pukua might be like one of the favorites for offensive player of the year. He had nine catches, 163 yards. his first touchdown on the season, the game-winning touchdown. He looks legit.

And like one thing I noticed this game. Can I say something? Oh, yeah, go ahead. Which is that I was really shocked to learn that Pooka Nukuoka had not scored a touchdown yet. That one really caught me by surprise. I just, I felt like he already had. He's been like really, he's been cooking in like the high red zone, but then they get down to the goal line and they run it in the low red zone.

Yeah, they run it. But one thing I noticed this week, and I don't know if this was the case like earlier in the season, but he wasn't running the Cooper. Cup routes. Like I noticed on a couple of their like staple concepts, he was running a different route than you would usually see Cooper Cup run. So I think when they come back, there's not going to be as much overlap as you might think.

And I think having those two guys on the field plus the way Matthew Stafford is playing. And the offensive line looked so much better. It was like night and day between this game and the Bengals game. They get no boomback, the left tackle who left that game. And they just look like a totally different unit. And the Colts don't have the best pass rush, but they dominated. the game. But if they get those two receivers going and Matthew Safford keeps playing like this, they're going to be a top 10 offense. I don't know about the defense, but they're going to be a,

they're going to be a borderline top 10 offense. And then like I said, Anthony Richardson, thumbs up, two thumbs up. He's Cam Newton, Cam Newton 2.0. Colts don't have the best pass rush, but that defensive line, I mean, they gave the Jaguars trouble, which I guess is not saying all that much. But that's, there's, there's, worse, there's worse units you could go up against. And their offensive line did seem like they held up a lot better getting note boom back. I have one more note here. It just says Alec Pierce and Alec is in scare quotes.

I don't know what I was going for there. I can't help you with that. But I remember during the off season when we previewed that AFC South, we said like Alec Pierce is a big deal in this offense. He's not good. That's why the scare quotes. I don't know. The scare quotes are around Alec.

I think, oh, wait, here. I have a follow-up note and says, change it to Alex and make a contested catch for once. I'm anti-Alic. You think the C is holding him back? Yeah. Okay. Maybe we'll workshop that.

That's interesting. There's a lot to unpack there. We call him the X factor. He needs the X. Oh, there you go. I just made that connection up. now. That's not a thing. I would believe that like we went on an extended bit about that in July and neither of us has any recollection of it, but it's somehow lodged deep in your memory. That's,

that's maybe possible. We'll have to see how it turns out. If anyone is, if anyone knows Mr. Pierce and wants to get a message to him from the ringer NFL show, you know, just something to consider. Last but not least, I have a winner for you, Stephen. How did you feel about two time MVP Lamar Jackson. How does that sound to you? Now we're talking. This is my kind of conversation. Ravens Browns was not competitive. So like we don't really need to talk about the game here. Dorian Thompson was starting for Cleveland, Watson out. But the Browns defense is really, really good. And Lamar, goodness gracious, just absolutely diced them up. Four touchdowns. He had the same number of incompletions as touchdowns, which was four. This was a

first career game with two or more passing touchdowns and two or more rushing touchdowns, he was facing a lot of pressure. They're still without Stanley, also without OBJ and Bateman. And the Browns were getting pressure 53.8% of the time. And under that duress, Lamar was 8 of 9 for 136 yards and a touchdown. It was the improvisation. It was the design of run game. It was the throws on the run out of structure. It was the pinpoint accuracy. It was the off platform, sidearm. Like, he's doing this without their best offensive lineman, without two of the top three receivers.

And he's just sort of like, whatever, Mark Andrews and I will do this. It's fine. We're a month into the season. He's fifth in success rate. He's third in CPOE. Second in completion percentage. He's thrown eight touchdown passes to one interception. There are other quarterbacks who are making what could be very compelling.

MVP cases like Josh Allen played a game today. That is a very, very good thing to put on an MVP resume. But Lamar is playing unbelievably good quarterback right now, which I think is equal to the best I've ever seen him play. And I think it's flying under the radar a little bit for a bunch of reasons, including who they've played. Some of the weird, like, as you've pointed out, they've played some games an absolute slop. And they had the Colts game, which was just a very weird game. And I don't think you can build a whole MVP case out of like, yeah, but if you really think about it, you realize

how good he is. He's going to have to have some games in under bigger spotlights where he really does it. But I have no doubt that he will because he's just playing so well right now. And I think this offense, which is only going to get healthier, at least you hope, is it looks to me like it's in a really good position with what's happening in the Bengals. They are the clear team in that division. And at some point, I think that we're going to be having a serious conversation about if he's, if not just in the MVP conversation, one of the favorites. it. Yeah, for me right now, it's him and him and Josh Allen. And like you said, this is different from what we've ever seen. I think one thing that even the Lamar backers, the people that were

high on the Ravens, I think we were both high on the Ravens offense this year. The one thing we may have overlooked was that Lamar could also get better individually. We thought like, oh, they're going to put him in this new offense and it's just going to help, it's going to elevate his game. he elevated his game on his own during the offseason apparently because this looks totally different. He's picking these defenses apart like a dropback quarterback would. This is like everything that everyone wanted to see from him over the first couple of years.

Everything that people said he couldn't do, he couldn't be this type of quarterback. And I think you can tell the game has just slowed down for him as a passer. Yeah. I thought from year one to year two, the game slowed down for him as a runner. Like you could tell he'd like realize, oh shit, this is the extent.

of my powers. I can do whatever I want against these guys. As a runner, I think he's, he's kind of having that lightbulb moment as a passer right now. And there were plays when, like you said, he was under pressure. And it was just like he was playing at a different speed compared to everybody else on the field. And those Browns, like that Browns pass rush, those are fast guys. Those are talented guys. And he looked like the best player on the field every single play. There's so much more space in this offense. which figured, right? Like that was what they were trying to accomplish.

What I didn't necessarily think about was or consider was just that he is so good at understanding how that space is developing within a defense. And I think it's just not something that I ever was able to notice about his game because it was such a, it was always so clogged up. It was a much more just like condensed environment that. he was playing in. So you don't get as clear of a sense as the like, he's throwing the little sidearm passes where it fits within a specific window and he knows how one defender is closing and if he's going to be able to make that throw and how much velocity he has to put on it.

He is thinking on that type of level where that is the number of variables that are just in his head. It seems like at any given moment. And I think because the offense does look a little bit more, more opened up now. under Todd Monkin, you just are able to see it and appreciate that more. Or it's another element that he's gotten better at and developed. It's hard, I think, for me, at least to compare his development in that area just because

I think it looks different in this offense than it has in the past. But it's just really impressive how he seems to understand the spaces on the field. Yeah, like my comparison would be like he was playing. half court basketball under Greg Roman and now they're playing full court basketball. Right. Like that's a difference in space. And like I always push back against the- And he knows where all of the passing lanes are.

Right, yeah. He's like a great point card out there and he's also, he can also like just dunk on everyone. He's like, I was gonna say John Moran, but that's not like a comparison you want to make right now. But and I always push back against the notion that like this Greg Roman offense was built for him and it was perfect for him and it was getting the most out of him. Like, no, put this guy in space. Make people tackle him in space and we're seeing it. And like, he's also elevated his game as a passer. And it's, it's fun to watch. All right, good stuff. Thanks again to our sponsor, Uber Eats. With Uber Eats, you can get groceries, alcohol and everyday essentials in addition to food from your favorite restaurants. In other words,

get almost, almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets and 21 plus to order. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Let's take one more quick. break and then we'll finish with the take purge. All right, we're back on dual threat. Last things last. It's time for the take purge. May I actually go? Steven, I have one for us.

The floor is yours. My take is that the biggest frauds in sports are offensive football coaches who made their careers coaching Hall of Fame quarterbacks. I bring this up because Josh McDaniels' record as a head coach after today. is 367. And there was a list going around the old World Wide Web that brought up some other coaches who had higher career winning percentages in the NFL

than Josh McDaniels currently possesses. They include Steve Spurrier, Greg Williams, Adam Gase, Mark Tressman, and Ben McAdoo. Oh, man. So I think it's safe to say that this is going pretty badly. Look, I don't want to hang the Raiders and aid in O'Connell for losing to the Chargers. But there were two really strange coaching situations with Las Vegas this week, starting with the incredibly strange back and forth about whether Brian Hoyer or O'Connell was going to start, which is just like, you can't be spending brain space having. a strange narrative and like weird headlines about if Brian Hoyer or Aidan O'Connell is going to start.

Like just you, we can't be doing this. Second of all, DeMonte Adams scored a touchdown and he was called not having gotten over the goal line. But it was an obvious touchdown. Like you would see it very quickly. He definitely scored. And Joshua Daniels wants to run a quick snap quarterback sneak. so quickly that he doesn't look at the replay or talk to whoever is in his ear from up in the booth or go through whatever mental process would have been necessary to think of challenging the play,

which was like one of the most obvious challenge situations I've ever seen on a football field. They still scored on the drive so it doesn't, you know, whatever. But like, how do you have confidence if you're Las Vegas or if you're any of those players that your coach is putting you in the best possible situation to win games, if you see that he's not he's not even paying attention on that level or doesn't have somebody else cluing him in that there is very clear evidence that Adam scored and that you'd win the challenge. I just, it's not news to anyone that this is not going particularly well

and it doesn't help that that Jim McGroplow is out with a concussion, obviously. But this team, team does not, there is talent on the Raiders roster. It's, they're not a great team. There's not, you know, they're not deep. The defense is suspect, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's talent on that roster. It's just bad.

The team he took over was eight yards away from beating the Bengals in the playoffs on the road. Yeah. This is, yes. This is a playoff team. And they look just like completely inept. Again, like, I don't want to go too far down the path when, when they're not playing with the starting quarterback and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. but the decision making is totally suspect.

We have a big enough sample size at this point that he is not good in this role. I think there's a little bit of a Sean Payton element to this too. I mean, the one guy, I guess, who did well in this situation today was Nathaniel Hackett. I'll have to think about how he fits into this conversation, though I would say broadly speaking, it has not worked out well. if I were running an NFL coach, I'm just, I'm not hiring one of these guys. I'm not hired, like,

we treat it like it's a good thing. We treat it like, oh my God, like he, you know, he worked with Tom Brady, like Tom Brady loves this guy. Tom Brady always, you know, talked offense with Josh McDaniels every week in the meeting room. Tom Brady coached himself.

He did it. He was just really good. Like, I don't know. I don't know if Tom Brady would have been the same without Josh McDaniel. No, I'm joking. Like, of course, he would have been fine. he would have been completely fine.

The real problem is, and maybe there's a lot of overlap here, because I'm hearing a lot of names like Sean Payton. Maybe the problem here is hiring coaches who wear visors. I think I tweeted this last week. Stop hiring coaches who wear visors. Doug Peterson is the only one that's allowed to wear one. And the only way you can wear one is if you win a Super Bowl with Nick Foles. I like that rule.

I like that rule. Winning a Super Bowl with Nick Foles runs counter to the thesis here, right? or like it, it confirms it by being the other side of it. A guy, a good offensive play caller with, they, they cover their head up. So you can't read their minds and then see the place. Yes, that's absolutely how that works. All right. Do you have a take to purge before we get out of here?

Does the, the visor thing count? No, this is less of a take, but more of like an observation. I don't know what the take is. But like every time Brandon Staley goes for it on fourth down and it, doesn't work and everyone laughs at them. They end up winning the game. It happened this week against the Raiders. It happened last week against the Vikings. It happened last year against the Browns. That was the game when Keenan Allen was at home. It was like, what the hell is going on? What are we doing? And they still won the game. So my take is that Brandon Staley just lean into the bit every time,

every fourth down, go for it. Who cares? Who cares? What is Rex Ryan going to make fun of you? Who cares? Definitely. Do you think it's like the defense? Because what's happened is that defensively, they've made big plays after those things have happened. Do you think the defense kind of like, we got to help, we got to help coach out here. We got to go make a play. I think he's doing it on purpose. So he can get the stop and be like, I called the plays.

Yeah, he's doing it on purpose. He's setting himself up for success. He doesn't want Herbert to get all the success, the credit for the success. My other take was going to be that, it's only been four weeks, but I'm ready to call it, man. The Panthers made a mistake drafted in Bryce Young.

Like, C.J. Schrofts looks so good. And then Anthony Richardson was doing alien shit like all game long. And then you watch the Panthers game and they don't do anything. Like there's no flashes. There's nothing. And there was with Andy Dalton, which makes it hard to cope as a Panthers fan. They're trying. Trust me.

I'm on Panthers Twitter. They're trying their hearts out. But it's getting really hard. Like every week when C.J. Stroud is good. Now Richardson is back and it's making it worse. Rough times. All right. We're going to end on and it was with Andy Dalton.

This has been dual threat on the ringer NFL show. feed. We will be back on Thursday. Next up on this feed, Sheal and Ben will have extra point taken. Their deep dive on week four, that'll be up Monday. Thank you, as always, to Kira Givens and Eduardo Ocumbo for their work on socials and to Isaiah Blakely for producing this episode with additional production supervision by our June around football. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem call 1-800 gambler or visit the ringer.com slash RG. Must be 21 plus and present in select states, Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas

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