The Ringer NFL Show - Week 7 Recap: Eagles Defense Shuts Down the Dolphins, Pats Upset the Bills, and Ravens Blow Out the Lions | Dual Threat

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

Nora and Steven recap Week 7, starting with the Eagles' impressive victory on Sunday night over the Dolphins (1:01). Then, they talk about their winners and losers for the week, including the Ravens, Patriots, Packers, Raiders, and more (20:20), before finishing up with the take purge (1:25:15). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Producer: Isaiah Blakely Social: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The ringer gambling feat is your one-stop shop for all things betting throughout the NFL season. From week one all the way through Super Bowl 58 in Las Vegas, we have you covered every which way. We've got our favorite futures. We've got props. We'll discuss the lines. And, of course, we'll throw in a few parlase. That's a given. So whether you're a sharp or square better, we'll be breaking it down in terms.

Hopefully, everybody can understand. And we'll try to win some money along the way. So be sure to subscribe to the ring of gambling feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Dual threat on the Fringer NFL show feed. I'm Nora Pintziotti. I'm Stephen Ruiz. And it's week seven. Sunday night, we just watched a whole slate of games and we are ready to break them down.

Starting with the headline Sunday night football. Miami Philly. This was, this felt like a really exciting game. This felt like a heavyweight battle. and what we ended up with was, I thought, a really interesting game that says a lot about both of these teams and their styles and how their styles match up and what's going to happen going forward. So, Stephen, what did you learn from this pretty dominant Eagles win against the Dolphins? I just think this coaching staff gets it. Like, I think you can make, you can have your criticisms about the job Brian Johnson has done throughout the beginning.

of the year as a rookie offensive play caller. I think Sean decides the defensive play caller. Both of them are in their first year in those roles. I thought Decide's been better and he had a better night tonight. But like the coaching staff has a whole, Nick Siriani, how he manages a game. I think they just get it. And like tonight at like some point during the third quarter, maybe late in the third quarter, it kind of felt like Miami's offense got it going.

And it kind of felt like the game was getting away from Philly. And if it just kept going the way it was going that Miami would take a lead and then run away with it. And then the next drive for Philly's offense, they just took all of the air out of the game. And they did it again on the ensuing drive the next time they got the ball. And that was it. Like two possessions game over. Miami doesn't really have a chance. They reduce Miami's margin for error to such a small degree. Tua makes one mistake late in the game. I don't think Tua played a bad game by any means, but he makes one mistake late in the game. He throws the pick. And that was game. It was over. No margin for error for Miami. And I thought it came down to the coaching staff, the way

they managed the clock. And then obviously having those talented players on the offensive line and then having A.J. Brown, then having this cheat code with the tush push with Jalen Hertz whenever it's fourth and one made it easier. But I thought the coaching staff really brought this game home for them. Yeah. I mean, they understand who they are, right? Because I think the thing that stood out to me the most from this.

And we should talk at length about the Eagles defense because they shut down an offense. They held an offense to 10 points that's averaging 37, right? was going into this game. And that's a huge story. But the thing that just watching this felt inescapable was they're like a boa constrictor offensively. It's not always the most electric thing to watch in the world. But the way that they eat clock when it's working is just devastating.

They had, I think, a 10-minute time of possession advantage against Miami. And I think it stood out because we're watching an Eagles team go against a dolphins team that we know for being able to score at any moment. You know, one second on the clock, they can score a touchdown. Tyree Kill can get in the end zone and it doesn't matter how far they have to go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's this Dolphins offense that we know can function like that when everything's going right. But the drive that I think you were talking about that put, or one of the drives that put them up two scores in the fourth quarter, 13 plays, 85 yards. They take six and a half minutes off the clock.

That was the one where they're on the 30 and they're going to punt, but then Siriani thinks it over, sends him back out. They get a yard on the tush push. And then it's just, you know, methodical and like this slow suffocating death march. And I think because of the stuff in the passing game with Hertz that hasn't looked quite as good as last year, like some of those questions remain. but I also think that that what's becoming more and more clear to me is that just this is who they are and this is what they are most, you know, when they are at their best, it's just when they are bleeding their opponent absolutely to death. So I just, I thought it was like this was a game where that hit home more than than any other so far this season. It was just so impressive.

And then we saw the like the defense. They deserve a lot of credit. I know there's going to be a lot of like double. level thinking whether like the dolphin success this year and some of their highlight games for the offense is, I don't know, offset by these setbacks against these good teams. We've seen them struggle against Philadelphia and then we saw them struggle against Buffalo. Two contenders they've gone up against and they've struggled.

But like Philly's defense was so good. They made things difficult. Like even the throws that tool was completing, they were tight window throws where he had to place it perfectly to get it away from Philly. these defenders. I think this defense is arguably better than it was a year ago. Like Jalen Carter might be an all pro in his rookie season. And they didn't have that in the middle of the defense last year.

They obviously had Fletcher Cox, but even like Jordan Davis has just been a better player in his second year. The two of them against the run is scary, right? I mean, these dolphins can certainly win through the air. And primarily we've seen them do that. But the run game this season has been. been such a development and such a part of what they've incorporated into the offense after last year. And it was just, I mean, there was just simply no point. There was just no,

absolutely no point in running the ball. Right. Yeah. I kind of felt like Mike McDaniel kind of stuck with the run a little bit too much early on. And he fell behind. By the time the dolphins really leaned into that passing game, it was already 17 to 3. And it was kind of already too late, as it turns out. But back to my point, like, I just think like, around that passing game, the point you just brought up, around that passing game, that doesn't look the same as it did last year. But I feel like everything else around that looks better. Like even the tush push, they didn't really figure that out till mid-season, basically,

so like week six. Now they just, every fourth and one, it's just like, should we even run the play? Just give them the first down. I think they set it up on purpose. If you want to, I'm just saying, if you want to protect players' health and safety, let's just give them an automatic first down and let's not go through the charade of, of letting them run the play. We know they're going to get it.

And it's not even close at this point. They're getting like two extra yards every time they get it now. Four times it happened today. The only thing that can go wrong with it is when they get called off sides when the ref thinks that Kelsey's hand is actually Landon Diggerson's. It's happened twice, too. That's literally the only time it ever gets stopped is when they called an erroneous off, I don't even have neutral zone.

That is a very good NFL example of like two is not that many times, but it's weird that it's happened twice. Like, guys, we got to get it together here. Defensively, though, I think you're right to say that they deserve so much credit. The Dolphins offensive line is certainly banged up. Isaiah Wyn went out in this game. They were already without Connor Williams and Tron Armstead. One of the things that is a commonality between this game and the Bills game

to losses for this Dolphins team against contenders is in both of those games, to his face a fair bit of pressure. And they've gotten a lot of hits on the opposing defenses have gotten a lot of hits in the quarterback. Hassan Reddick, I don't know. You can't possibly say too much. I mean, just an incredible game. That whole defensive front for Philly, it seemed like as the game wore on, they kind of heat it up and heated up and heated up.

And that was a lot for Miami to deal with, especially with a shorthanded offensive line. And that's that's something that's going to be a calling card for Philly, right? I think like this defense, it's really impressive to watch them just take it to another team because we know they do have some of those vulnerabilities in the secondary, especially with where their health is right now. But I thought that they just came out and handed it to them to the point where usually it didn't matter. They didn't get into those. They won on early downs so that they didn't get into disadvantageous situations where

their depth in the secondary was going to be tested. That's probably a tougher challenge against slightly healthier, slightly better offensive lines than Miami has, but still, just an impressive thing to see. because we do know that if a Miami receiver gets behind a defense, you know, we saw it with Tyree Kill, right? Like, what are you going to do? Triple team him, quadruple team him? Like, he's just too fast.

So I thought they did a really good job of just winning the battle up front and avoiding letting Miami take advantages of their weaknesses altogether. Yeah, that was kind of the surprising thing is that they were able to take away the strengths and both of the strengths, which have been so far the season, obviously throwing down field, and then getting to the perimeter and the run game. There was only like a couple of times when they were able to get the edge, and it was like in the third quarter.

But beyond that, they couldn't get the edge. They obviously have the Tyreek deep ball, which was, I mean, I don't know if it was supposed to be double coverage. It kind of looked like it, but I saw some people on Twitter suggest that it was a blitz that, I don't know, that Edmonds wasn't doing the right thing. But Tyreek Hill just ran straight. through a bracket. I don't think I've ever seen someone beat a double team, if it was a double

team like that, just run straight through it. And in the first half, he was just dominant. Like, whenever he touched the ball, it just felt like he might score. There was that one play where they threw it to him. It was like behind the line of scrimmage. He was like five yards in the backfield. And like the Eagles defensive back was just frightened to commit to a tackle because he was afraid that Tyree Kill was just going to zoom past him. And like, it's totally understandable because that's what he's done all year long. Like after that double team touchdown, I was willing to start the Tyreek for MVP discourse because we haven't seen like a lot of great quarterback performances this season.

And if there is a season to give it to a receiver, if Tyreek breaks like the receiving record, I think you have to consider him at least. I don't know if he's going to get it, but I hope he gets a voter two. But this game, once they figured out how to like shut him down, I thought the game kind of fell apart for the Dolphins. But that first half, I mean, if that's what an MVP receiver looks like,

if we ever see one. There is a concern. My one concern, though, is, and this showed up in the Buffalo game, when Tua has to create, it's still a struggle for him. Like,

I think he's getting better at it. I think he deserves credit for getting better in that regard. We saw it in the Chargers game. We've seen it in a couple of other games where he's made plays off script, but against the contenders that they played so far, Buffalo has made him, has turned him into that type of playmaker and he failed.

The Eagles did it again this game, especially in the second half, especially at the end in the fourth quarter. He couldn't really do anything. I think that's always going to be the concern with him because like the rest of his game fits so perfectly with this offense. We always talk about that. What's the things that he doesn't provide outside of the offense? That makes you wonder if he's the guy to take him to a Super Bowl. And like with how Miami is approaching the season with their roster and their salary cap, Like that's the goal.

They're Super Bowl or bust basically. Definitely. Do you think that that's a stylistic thing? Or do you think that that's something that he's basically going to run into whenever they're playing a high quality defense, a play off caliber defense? That's a good question. I just think it's like hit or miss.

Because like I said, he is getting better at it. And he does deserve credit. And I think like maybe down the road after he gets more reps against these types of defense, he'll get even better at it. And we'll see endings like we saw against the Chargers where he's making plays outside of the pocket and on the move. But right now, it's like inconsistent at least.

I think two years ago it was non-existent. Now it's just inconsistent. That's an improvement. Yeah. They had the injuries on the line. Waddle goes out for a while. There's another world, right, where they settled for the field goal in the first drive. Tyree Kill could have had a touchdown if Lester Cotton, who'd gone in for a win,

hadn't gotten called, called for holding on that play. there's some stuff that I think could have gone, could have swung slightly differently and maybe we would feel a little bit better about this for Miami's offense. You can say the same for Philly, right? I mean, Hertz seemed like he was battling through a little bit of a hamstring pole or something and everybody's injured all the time at this point in the season. I just more think it's, they didn't even get time to, to sort of find the counterpunches and get into a rhythm.

I think there's something to what you're saying, where Tua is getting better slowly, but when he's really forced to be a playmaker, that might be the type of thing that puts a ceiling on these dolphins that they're trying to win a Super Bowl. But I just think more than that, Philly played a really good game, had a really good game plan and played in a way where,

the Dolphins just never got to settle and get to a point where they can dial up the deep stuff, do what they want to do, do it consistently, figure out how to get the edges. Like you mentioned, they started trying to do it more and more in the third quarter. And it just seemed like they never found that rhythm. I do think part of that is just how hard it was to do anything with the run game. And it did seem like McDaniel wanted that as as. A safety net, maybe something that he thought would get them better looks defensively, but it just, it, it took so long for them to get through like, okay, this clearly isn't working. Let's try some other stuff. And then with the ball control that Philly's able to enact, it just seems like the game, the game was over. Yeah. There weren't a lot of drives. So it wasn't like they had the opportunity to kind of figure things out. I feel like if this was, if they played again tomorrow, I think the. the whole game would resemble the second half we saw where it was a little bit more

competitive. But I do think that it was just a weird start. And sometimes that happens. That's what happens in a small sample size sport. Sometimes you just lose. I agree with you. Like I brought up the two of concern. That's like my one little micro level concern from this game.

But like macro level, I don't think it was that bad of a game for the dolphins. Yes. Like they failed another test against a contender. But like their two best corners were out. Maybe two of the best players. on the team on that side of the ball and Zavian Howard and Jalen Ramsey, who are going to be back in the future. Like you said, the offensive line, like they were basically missing the,

the whole left side of the offensive line. And they lose by, what, 14 points? They're not a super physical team. They're physically, incredibly talented in certain ways, but this is, I feel like this is one of those sort of like styles make fights games where the Eagles won the whose style are we playing this game in battle. And then it's just, like, there's a different version of, of this game where Miami gets into a rhythm offensively,

and they can pick on that secondary. They can pick on the second level. And then we're having a completely different conversation. And I really do think that if they played this game 10 times, I think I think Philly is a better team, but we're probably having that conversation four out of 10 times, right? Like four and a half. It's not a huge disparity.

But you're just getting in these situations where, all the Eagles have to do is go like eight and a half yards and three downs. And they don't, they use all the play clock and it's so slow. And then you've got Mike McDaniel standing there being like, I went to Yale just to be standing here losing to something called a tush push where a bunch of people just throw their body weight forward. Like that's not the dolphins.

And it very much is the Eagles. And that's what this game was. But I think it says more about, do you think it says some real things about what the Eagles can do to other teams? I think it says a lot about just how this game played out in ways that aren't ideal for Miami. I don't think it says that much about where the dolphins can go. I'm going to throw one of your, one of your takes from early in the season. I don't remember when it was from.

It might have been week two back at you. I'm scared. No, it's, it's fine. Are the dolphins not physical? or I don't want to use the S word. I don't want to say soft, but because of their uniforms. I remember you said that about the Chargers

and their powder blue uniforms. Let's talk about the Aqua and orange of the dolphins. No, I didn't say the Chargers one was weirder. It was just like it doesn't look like you're playing defense. Yeah, Aqua's so stupid. Like, that's such a dumb color. Are you kidding me? Against the Kelly Greens?

Yeah, they didn't have a chance. You said they should just not run the Tushpah. They honestly shouldn't have played this game because the uniform matchup was so bad. It was such a disparity. There was no way. Absolutely no way that the Eagles were losing this game. It was the worst version of the Dolphins uniforms too

because they have like the throwbacks that would have looked nice in this uniform matchup. But they didn't wear them. And they wore like the Aqua pants with like the Aqua socks. Too much, too much Aqua. Too much Aqua. I'm not a big Dolphins uniform. person. Some people love, love the dolphins uniforms in general. I just don't think

Aqua's just not, it's just not right for this. It's just not appropriate. If they would have had a better color, they would have stopped one of the twoish pushes. Yeah, just one. Not multiple. Just one. But just one. All right. Should we take a break and come back in new winners and losers? Let's do it. The NFL season is going strong and Fandle wants to help you enjoy even more with two great offers. right now new customers can bet $5 to get $200 and bonus bets guaranteed. Plus all customers get a profit boost every day so you can boost your winnings even more. You can sign up at time to bet on Monday night's game between the Vikings and the 49ers. In that game, I like San Francisco laying the points on the road.

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All right, we're back on dual threat, and it is time for winners and losers brought to you by Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Defense, no. Deodorant, yes. Offensive offsides, no. Olive oil, yes. Uber Eats is an easy win. So let's talk about the other winners and losers this week.

Stephen, you want to hit me with your first? Yeah, Lamar Jackson. Can we give him the MVP award right now? I'm ready. Lamar Jackson, yeah, ever heard of them? 357 passing yards, three touchdowns, and a 38 to 6 win. Over the Lions, our producer Isaiah accidentally put the Rams instead of the Lions, which I feel like it's a Freudian slip because Jared Goff was looking mad,

2019 Jared Goffish today. The Ravens won this game on first and second down. They didn't let the, and it was kind of similar to the Dolphins game where we said, like, they didn't really get into a rhythm. They couldn't run the ball early, and they had to play catch up, and that was the beginning of the end for them. That's kind of what happened with Detroit. They were like an 11 personnel shotgun for most of the first half.

And we know like Detroit doesn't want to live like that. They want to have big bodies on the field. They want to be under center. They want the run game. They want to have pulling guards and do all that and play action. And that wasn't the game they played. And I give a lot of credit to Mike McDonald, who is the defensive coordinator for the Ravens. I think he's going to be a head coach next year.

I think this was the battle of the two hottest head coaching candidates of next offseason. Ben Johnson, offensive coordinator for Detroit, and Mike McDonald, defensive coordinator for the Ravens, and it was one-sided. It was just a blowout. I got to run through a little bit of the film in the first half, and McDonnell was just throwing heat. Like, every play was a different coverage,

a different subtype of coverages that they played earlier in the game, different pressures, different blitzes, like different safety rotations. It was insane. Like, it was an AP test for Jared Goff. and Derek Goff is reading at like a seventh grade level. Like he failed the test. It was a multiple choice test and he didn't get one question wrong. Right.

It was that one side. And it was one of the best defensive game plans I've ever seen. Like every concept Detroit tried to run, the Ravens were basically in the perfect call to stop it. It was amazing. They had guys, the guys that they were trying to throw to like double cover, covered, perfect leverages. It was an amazing performance by the defense.

And then Lamar Jackson, maybe the most comprehensive performance we've seen from a quarterback this year. And I would make the argument that throughout the first seven weeks of the season, he's been the best quarterback in the NFL. He's played the best through the first second weeks. I know the stats don't really show it. Well, now you kind of can make that argument because this was the game that we knew he had in him. And now it happened. Now it's happened. I mean, it's so satisfied.

They had nine plays of 20 or more yards in the first half. The play that I think people will remember this game for was the touchdown throw to Aguilar where he scrambled around, covered 25 yards, bought 10 seconds for Aguilar to get open and then they score the touchdown. 9.8 seconds. It was amazing. It was so cool. It's just every facet of Lamar being awesome that you're waiting to see.

Can we do like a 9.8 moment of silence to like just represent how. long he held the ball. Do we have that technology? I think I can do nine seconds, but I don't, I don't know that I can do 0.8. Okay, then it's not worth it. I don't want to do it unless it's down to the decimal. Okay. The next time, if he does it again, then we'll, we'll, producer Isaiah, I'm sure we'll get on that technology for us, but listeners will just have to imagine for now. The thing that I thought was really interesting about this game was that the Lions had the number one run defense going in, but they hadn't faced a team with a mobile quarterback who's like

a part of the, like they'd faced Mahomes, right? But not anyone like Lamar, who's part of the designed run game in that kind of way. And the Ravens just smoked them. I mean, they had 146 rushing yards. No team had had more than 100 on the Lions this season. Baltimore had 100 by half time. And then Lamar himself, obviously, having such a good game. and a game where he was using his legs,

not just to run, but to run and then pass. It just seemed to me like that was going to be a huge matchup going in. And Baltimore really came out ahead in that. And then defensively, like you explained, just the way that that pass rush was getting after golf with guys like Kyle Van Noi, where I think you're right to point out, McDonald in a bunch of different ways. But a lot of these guys, because of the injuries that they always deal with, just

like haven't been there for that long. And he's getting people coached up in in good positions and making plays really, really quickly. As a defense, they pressured Jared Gough on 20 and 57 dropbacks. They sacked him five times. It seemed like some of Gough's struggles were due to the fact that it was windy enough that the ball kept falling off the kicking tea. And there was, I think, a pretty clear difference in how the ball.

ball was coming out of his hand than out of Lamar's. But that's not to take away from what this defense did because it was super, super impressive. And guess which quarterback's throwing ability gets questioned seemingly every week? Not the one that can throw the ball when it's a little windy out. But I had to get that in, did you? I did. I really did.

But I thought this was Todd Monkin's best game. And I thought one thing that was really interesting was how they kind of used Lamar as a threat in the run game to set up other things. Like, Greg Olson was talking about it during the broadcast, how they dialed back on the power runs that they used Lamar on. But there were two instances in this game where they kind of faked a power run by Lamar and then had him like toss it downfield. And it led to big gains.

There was the one to Gus Edwards in the second half where it looked like it was like a kind of like a counter fake. And then he leaks out of the backfield and Lamar hits him for a big gain. And there was another one earlier. I think he was on the touchdown in the first. half. I just thought that was a brilliant use of his threat in the run game without subjecting him to those hits that he would take. And we've seen they're not calling as many design runs. And I think that really helps Lamar because when he's a scrambler, he's in such control. It's like everyone else on

the field is going slow. And he's just running at a different speed. And the crazy thing is, like, I don't even think he ever sprints really. He never really has to turn it up to top speed to get around these defenders. He had like Aiden Hutchinson, who's been a borderline all-pro defensive end this year, like gasping for air, like just like almost swimming, doing a swimming motion, trying to stay up and keep up with this guy. He was the best player on the field by a wide margin. And there are a lot of good players on Detroit. Detroit is a very good football team. I don't think this takes away from what Detroit has done earlier this year. I just think it says what we've been thinking about the Ravens

for the first month and a half of the season. They could be a Super Bowl team and we saw it this week. I don't think it says much about the Detroit defense. I do think that there's some of this offensively. It makes you think about the concerns that I think anyone would have

going into the season with this offense of, okay, what's it going to be like in January? What's it going to be like in bad conditions? What's it going to be like, if it is windy like this, if you are combining with something like that with facing a really good pass rush, facing a defense with a coordinator who is going to be constantly changing the picture of what Goff is looking at. And so I think some of that might be real,

but I certainly don't think that the result here is indicative of exactly who the lions are. They're still one of the best teams in the NFC, you know, just outside of that top, top tier. and this might end up being a learning experience for them, right? Because I do think what you were just describing of dealing with the threat of a mobile quarterback was something new for them. And maybe if it comes up again later on in the season, there are some things Lamar can do that are just, you're going to lose. Right.

If the receivers aren't dropping passes that hit all 10 fingers or no one's fumbling or hijinks aren't going on, you're just going to lose sometimes. But there's some of that that they probably can learn from. Because I do think that this is a much improved Lions defense that probably still has a fair way to go, but is a talented unit and is a lot more capable than the Ravens made them look. But that's just the Ravens. Yeah.

I mean, we saw Detroit play a game similar to this last year in the middle of the year. the first time it really got cold and they played the Patriots on the road. St. Brown didn't play in that game. And that was kind of used as an explanation for why the offense struggled. But it reminded me of this game this week where you see the weather start to turn cold. They're on the road against a solid defensive opponent and they get embarrassed and Jericho has a bad game. That would be my one worry is that it kind of feels like it did last year.

Right. Speaking in New England, I've got a winner for you. Who is it? And that is William Belichie. a 300th winner here as the Patriots upset the Bills. Interesting game. But I think the big takeaway here is that Bill Belichick is going to be breathing a little bit more easily this week than in quite a few because they upset a division rival. And before they do during the pregame, there's news from NFL network that Belichick

locked up a, quote, lucrative multi-year contract extension before the start of the season. Now, I feel like I need to point out that if we really take a close read of that reporting, okay, lucrative, he's Bill Belichick, he makes a lot of money, and then multi-year. More than one. 2023 and 24 is multiple years, which I don't know. really changes very much about the actual calculus of what decision-making would go on between Belichick and the crafts and if there was to be a parting of ways or if he were to be outright fired at some point. But I do know that whoever got that out there, it probably gives him

a little pep in his step, right? He walks around the locker room and has maybe sort of reminded players, hey, better keep buying into the system here because I'm going to be here. And then they do get a win where offensively, it was the first game since Mack Jones was drafted that they won while allowing 25 points. So that's not great in some ways. But it was also a pretty meaningful win in terms of what they were, what they were able to do. And I also, I did think a little bit of a blueprint of how they can try to piece some stuff together. I mean, they really emphasized the quick game.

They tried to get yards after the catch on short passes to Mario Douglas was pretty effective. He was worked in there. And then even more than kind of the specifics of how it happened. I just thought it was meaningful to see Mack Jones fighting and look engaged in a football game and see the rest of the offense there. look like they cared about it, which is not to say that any of those guys don't care about it. One, I just think that's a stupid conversation that I have no way of knowing.

And two, it's a brutally dangerous game. Of course, they care about what they're doing. But there had been a whole vibe there of this ship's going down and we know it's going down. And everyone's just a little bit frazzled and maybe checked out in certain ways. And it seemed meaningful that that was. was not there.

And now Belichick also gets to remind people that he's won 300 games. So a good week for the big guy. He's had some tough ones lately, but this was a good one. And the opponent was very significant to me because this is an offense and a quarterback that has given him problems. Because we've seen Belichick has it in him still to come up with these good defensive game plans. It happens, it doesn't happen as frequently as it used to, but it still happens.

Like even when they played Miami, they did a really good job against Miami. But Josh Allen has always given them problems. And Stefan Diggs has always given them problems. Always. And they had a good plan for him. He had 58 yards. And it's kind of hard to like, I don't know, because Josh Allen had that, had a couple of those moments where he has those bozo moments. And he just throws like the worst interception you've ever seen.

And he looks like a guy that can't really play quarterback. And then he turns it on. at the end and almost brings them back. That's why it's so hard to kind of set a ceiling for this, this build team. I know that we've seen their A plus game and what it looks like. And when they play like that, they can beat anybody. But we don't see it that often.

And we see these kind of performances just as often as we see that top level. At least that's how it feels over the last two years for me. And I do wonder if like, I do wonder like with the defensive injury, that we've seen so far. Like Matt Milano is obviously out for the year. They've lost some defensive linemen. They lost Trey White. If Alan, if there's so much pressure on Allen to be perfect, does it make him lean into

his more chaotic tendencies a little bit more? I think, like, that's the question because we've now seen it two years in a row where the defense has suffered injuries. We've talked about Josh. And then we started talking about Josh Allen's decision making all of a sudden. And I feel like that he's kind of leaning into that second half, Josh Allen that we saw in 2022. And I don't know how you rain them back in.

And I don't know how you fix this by the time you get to January. Because like that they, if they don't win a Super Bowl this year, this rendition of the Bill's roster, like with that defense, with this collection of skill players, like this is this might be their last season together. But the other thing is that even if, yes, that's true. But I think the reason that they have to think about that, And if there is this hero ball mindset that he has is because even if that's the case, the Super Bowl window is still open for them. They have to be smart.

They have to figure out how to find the next version of this roster. But if they have Josh Allen, they are in a Super Bowl window, I think they are very good. I think they can beat pretty much any team. I just also think they can lose to pretty much any team. Right. They're one in three and one possession games. including to the Jets, the Giants. Other than that, they've beaten the Raiders by 28,

the commanders by 34, and the dolphins by 28. I think that's meaningful, right? I think it's meaningful that they've been absolutely able to just beat up on those other teams, including Miami, right, which is a whole different conversation because that's a super impressive win, one of the most impressive wins of the season. we're never going to know. I don't think that there's ever going to be a Bills game where you turn it on at 1 p.m. or whenever and are just like, oh, yeah, I feel like I know the products that they're going to put out there.

And there's something very frustrating about that. But I think that that's like, I don't think about that issue as can they get it together so that they can, you know, make the playoff push with this particular team and this particular iteration. that is like a who is Josh Allen over the course of his entire Buffalo career question. And I would be incredibly curious to know exactly how they're approaching it because it does seem like some of that is kind of coincided with dable leaving for the Giants. And just that was sort of his guy and a voice that he listened to. And I wonder if over time we're going to see them try to find the right. person to be in his ear and just say, like, you don't have to do it all. But for now,

I'm just trying to accept it. Like, yeah, it's the bills. Anything can happen. Yeah, my, my question more so is like, what's the cause of this inconsistency? Because we do see it on both sides of the ball. I think we've seen that, like, over the last couple of years. But is it a Josh Allen thing or is it the pieces around him? That's my big question. And I, like, genuinely don't know how to answer the question because I do think like some of the weirdness this year has coincided with him throwing some of the worst interceptions we've ever seen him throw. And it's difficult for me to separate those two things. The one interception today was,

was pretty bad. It was pretty bad. I think those things are linked because I think when what's around him isn't ideal or isn't perfect, he forces it. I mean, Diggs had 12 targets, right? like the Patriots had a really good plan for him and were clearly dedicated to limiting him. Kept feeding him. You know?

And some of those were good throws. Some of those, some of those throws digs should have made a catch. Some of those throws, you see why he's still going to make them, especially when you see something like the touchdown in the fourth quarter where he seems like he was down and then he just popped up was like insane. So in some ways it's like,

double-edged sort of knowing that you can make these things that shouldn't work, work, I think. And that dovetails in a weird way with our secondary options at receiver aren't awesome, or the running game isn't where they wanted to be, or the protection isn't as good as it should be and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because I just don't, I don't, he doesn't always take what's there. But I think that if we're at, if we're wondering when that's going to happen. in, that's a, it's going to take a while because that's just that, that's a question that

goes fundamentally to who is he as a player, who is he as a person? Who does he think the quarterback that he wants to be is? Yeah. I do think like the dayball thing. It's kind of, it's kind of tricky just because I think what makes it so hard to, to see his improvement compared to what we saw with dayball is that the bar is higher for him now. Like over the last two years, we've kind of seen the, I don't know what adjective he used, like the smart, nerdy version of Josh Allen come out sometimes where he's playing the quick game. He's the point guard of the offense.

And we didn't really see that under dayball ever. We saw the more chaotic, the, like the superstar talent who just was overwhelming defenses. And then we saw this maturation early on last year. And then it kind of fell apart. we saw it again this year in September, the Jets game notwithstanding, but we saw it after the Jets game and now it's falling apart again, it seems like. So I don't know, it's tough to blame it on the offensive coordinator, not being able to rein them in like Dayball always used to do because I don't think

Dayball used to do it. We just never saw the more tame version of Josh Allen when dayball was the office. He was still sort of on the rise, so you just think about it differently. That's fair. All right, you want to move us on to Luser? Not really. I don't want to talk about the Chargers anymore. like I'm over it.

The loser is the media, us, for hyping this team up every year and them doing the same thing every year and every week, basically. This was the first game that wasn't a one possession game for them this season, but it was the same result. They lose another game where they were competitive in the second half. They did have a chance to tie it late. Justin Herbert's pass gets popped up in the air in the red zone interception, and that was basically the end of the game at that point.

Patrick Mahomes, like, there's going to be. be a lot of talk about Brandon Staley's defense. They give up 31 points in this game. It was like almost 300, 400 yards of total offense in the first half. And they couldn't stop Travis Kelsey. But really, I thought they made good adjustments. And even in the first half, a lot of these plays Mahomes was making. He was like just going into God mode. Like he would, he would buy time. He would get outside of the pocket. Him and Kelsey just have this mind meld that it doesn't matter where either of them are on the field. They know where each other are and they're going to find each other. But I don't think it was a bad defensive game playing for the charges. I think the problem, again,

is the game management, the coaching, the decisions, the decision to punt on, I think it was like fourth and four, fourth and five at the end of the fourth quarter when it was still a one possession game around midfield, there's like six minutes left in the game. If the chiefs get two first downs, the game is over. The charges can't stop the clock really. They can just run the clock out. you're punting the ball back to the best quarterback we've ever seen play this sport. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Like the game was over then. And then obviously the punt gets returned like all the way to the other side of the field.

And that's it. They score on a screen pass. But I just thought, I feel like Brandon Staley just can't get the decisions right. Like even when he's making the sound decision and it doesn't go right, I think he just has to have the confidence to keep making those decisions. Once he becomes inconsistent, which I feel like has happened. happened over the last couple of years, it's so much easier to pick him apart, to pick these decisions apart.

The biggest accomplishment of this era of the Chargers, right? I guess there's two. I mean, one is just drafting Justin Herbert and inserting him into the starting lineup under strange circumstances and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the other one has been that they play the chiefs really hard. they always play the chiefs well. And it's been one of the things that I think we've looked at Staley and this group and gone. That's something that you can hang your hat on because if you're in this division,

Kansas City is the one to beat and he's got the defense. He's got the game plan. And that fell apart. They just didn't have it at all. And I hear what you're saying that there's some Holmes and Kelsey stuff that's just unstoppable. but they did adjust. I mean, they adjusted to double him a little bit more, but it was just way too late.

And then the offense just did not have it at all in the second half. So they're two and four. They have their super fan who has to compete with Taylor Swift, which is the metaphor for the rest of the game. And the whole thing, like, it's just the

one thing that they were supposed to, you know, the thing that would give me real, trepidation about okay, is you know, is Staley just a victim of bad luck, bad circumstances? Man, he can be really good

going up against those top top quarterbacks. They've played him close. Like, it almost doesn't matter why. I think there's something about having a game just get out of hand like this against the Chiefs. That's just extra depressing.

Yeah, and like all the things you could say all the good things you could say about the Staley regime so far are things that you would say about a defensive coordinator. They're not like things you would say about a good head coach. Like the defense as a whole hasn't gotten better. They still make bad mistakes. They still can't tackle. They still have a bunch of bad third down penalties.

The game management, there's questions about it seemingly every week because they're in these close games. So the spotlight gets put on Staley's game management. But it doesn't look good in that spotlight. And then just like, I think Kellyn Moore is a better offensive coordinator than Joe Lombardi. Obviously, like they're pushing the ball downfield more. That was obviously a change they had to make. But the problem is still, for the offense at least, the offensive line, they just can't block anybody.

And it's really hard to run an offense like that. They can't throw the ball down field because they don't have the speed to get, the receivers can't get downfield in time. The offensive line can't hold up. The running game doesn't really work most of the time. when it works, the offense moves the ball well, but when it doesn't, it's all on Justin Herbert's played. And then now on top of this, like, these last two weeks, it's the worst I've ever seen him play.

And it's a very high bar for him. That's what I was going to ask about. I have a very high bar for him. He misses like a handful of throws and the charters don't have a chance. But these last two games, I do think he has played poorly. It was the first time that I could really say, like, he's not, he's not giving the charters a better chance to win. at the same time,

the margin for error is just so small. Like the offensive line, it seems like he's running for his life every game. And he's barely taking any sacks. He's throwing the, he's like getting rid of the ball, avoiding those negative plays. But there's only so much you can do that

before you throw it into coverage. I mean, you could make a list of the Chargers problems 10, 15 deep before you get to Justin Herbert. But it does seem like he's going in the wrong direction. and I just wonder if that influences any other decision making there. We need to start talking about Tom Telesco,

because he's one of the more long-tenured GMs, and they can't draft. All their free agency signings are bad, their extensions, their contract restructures are bad and short-sighted. This is a poorly run team, and I think just because we recognize a lot of the names on the roster that we missed the fact that this is a poorly constructed roster with not a lot of depth.

and when a couple of guys get injured at the top of it, like the whole thing falls apart. And like we could, I don't want to call Quentin Johnson a bust already, but he's off to a rough start. Yeah, it's a tough. It's not working very well. And they passed on Zay Jones to take them. And Zay Jones was like a consensus, wide receiver won to a lot of people. A lot of people in media thought he was the best receiver. A lot of people in scouting thought he was the best receiver.

And the charges kind of outsmarted themselves going for size like they always do with receivers. And it was just more of the same of what they already had. And now we've seen, does this receiving court feel any different than it did a year ago when we were complaining about it? That was always the thing was like he, I mean, I liked him as a prospect and I thought this would work out better than it has. But it was like the top of the draft, the first round had so many good receiver prospects. And it was just like, please can the chargers just take, please take one who can run fast instead of one of the big guys like you guys always do, and they still did it. Yeah, that's rough. I mean, the season might be over for them. I think the more interesting

thing, obviously, is the cheese. They're the team from this game that could win the Super Bowl. I think we finally saw the offense kind of break out after an uneven start of the season. But I think we're starting to see some of the receivers. I know we've talked a lot about a receiver who emerges and replaces that Juju Smith-Schuster role in the offense, I don't even know if they need it. Because I think by committee, as long as Travis Kelsey can do what he's been doing since he's come back, I think their passing game might be fine. And like Isaiah Pacheco adds another element with the run game. Like they can get explosives from the run game, which is something that we rarely saw from Kansas City before last year. And now they have that element. And I think it almost replaces the need

to have, I want to say, a good receiving core. I think what they have right now is fine. I think what they had last year was closer to good. But I don't think they need that this year because the emergence of Pacheco and the run game. And then just the continuing evolution of Mahomes and Kelsey's connection, which seems to get better by the week. Yeah. I think that's right. It just counts on health for both Kelsey and Pacheco, right?

Because when both of those guys are on the field at relatively full strength and performing, I do think that they have a pretty well-rounded offense. But one, I don't know that that hanging your hat on Kelsey having 143 yards at the half is totally realistic. But more so than that, we've just seen both of those guys get banged up at times. And I do think that if you're building it around, well, if they've got both of those things to lean on, they should be fine. I just think it matters a little bit more if somebody has to go out for it. for a game or two or if somebody's a little bit banged up. And so I would still love to see them at a receiver.

Hardman looked okay. Only had one catch, but it was, he converted a third down and then he had that 50 yard punt return, which I do think matters in terms of how their special teams is going to be as that becomes more and more important later in the year and toward the playoffs. So I still hope that they'll make another move, but it is a game like this that makes you realize that if they don't, they'll probably still be fine. It's Mahomes. It's the Chiefs. Yeah. By the way, Mahomes made like a handful of just insane plays and nobody even like

mentioned it on like no one cares anymore. It's just like, okay, yeah, that's what you're supposed to do. Do it again next week. If you don't do it again next week, we're going to have, we're going to spend all week wondering what's wrong with the Chief's offense. All right. I'm not going to give you a loser now. I'm going to give you a, a weirdness. a weirder. And it's the Browns, who did win. They beat the Colts

39 to 38 in a very entertaining game. This was a lot of fun to watch. Eight lead changes. It was the most in game in four years. But the reason that this is going under not winner

or loser, but weirdest is we just, we need to talk about what's going on with the quarterback position. Because Deshawn Watson leaves the game with

three minutes left in the first quarter. He goes into the tent. He goes into tent with the independent neurologist. He enters concussion protocol. Then he clears it. PJ Walker has entered the game. Watson was one of five or five yards in an interception when he went out, but PJ Walker was also not playing particularly well.

And then Kevin Stapansky keeps him out for the rest of the game. In this highly competitive game with eight lead changes, he keeps there. starting quarterback who they still owe more than $200 million to out for the rest of the game and says afterwards that he didn't want to see him get hit, but that he would start against Seattle next week. Watson mentioned not being totally sure if he might have re-injured the rotator cuff injury that had kept him out for the last two games, which even then a couple weeks ago Stafansky let it slip that he had been medically cleared from that injury to play against the Ravens, but had made the decision himself to rest.

So while I want to be a little bit careful here, right, like if a coach is making a decision that he feels is necessary for a player's health and wants to keep him out of harm's way, I think that's great. but we are stacking very strange developments in terms of if and when Watson is playing and who thinks what about his health. And in particular, because of the circumstances of his contract and his acquisition, everything is more highly charged. And people's jobs are a little bit more on the line when it comes to this player. in this situation. And this is really weird. That's my take. Bactarian.

It's a little, yeah, it's a little, it's a little, it's, it's a little Bactarian, but it's not entirely because he was healthy enough to start the game and play in the game. And he was healthy enough that Sifansky said that if,

you know, he was the only other quarterback dressed. so if Walker had gotten hurt or something, he would have gone back in. Like, clearly he could play. The concussion protocol is independent, right? Like, that's a decision that's left up to somebody who doesn't have to do with to Sean Watson, who doesn't have to do with the Browns. There's a piece of this that makes you wonder if they were not 100% sure that he was

going to give them a better chance to win than PJ Walker. And the thing is, like you said, PJ Walker was not good. And the other thing was the hit that Watson took wasn't too. his shoulder. Like, that wasn't really a concern. And it's like, Stefanski didn't realize that getting hit was a possibility for Watson. Like,

I really don't understand the explanation. The stories here are not straight. I'm sorry. Like, I don't want to call anyone a liar, but there's something not adding up here. But did we need to talk about the Brown's defense or like revisit the 49ers' performance against this brown defense?

Because what did Gardner Minchew? I think Austin Gale tried to cancel Gardner Minschew. I'm usually the one canceling people. Austin Gale tried to cancel him on last week's episode. Yeah. He has 456 yards. 38 points. I still think the Brown's defense is very good.

Miles Garrett was like very clearly the best player on the field. This game was just really weird. I do think that Stuyken had a very good game plan just to sort of keep them off balance. They had they mixed in enough of the run game that the defense was sort of on its heels. And then he had a lot of man beaters ready. It was just a lot of. lot of turnovers. This game was downright bizarre, but Garrett had, he's the first player since at least 1991 to have two or more sacks, two or more forced fumbles, and a blocked field goal

in the same game. I would imagine that he is the first player to do that at any point in a game where nearly 80 points were scored. But I'm willing to chalk most of this. this up to just like this was a very bizarre game all around. Yeah, that makes sense. His block field goal was amazing. It was amazing. He's, oh my God, he's so athletic. It's crazy. He cleared the, blocking unit with one jump. I thought that was a legal, illegal move. But apparently if you do it really well and you don't touch anybody, it's not. If you don't touch anyone, you're allowed to. Yeah. That's how athletic he is. Like, I've seen like Bobby Wagner try to do that. An all pro linebacker, someone who should be very athletic

and he's been penalized for it. So, yeah, Miles Garrett. It's kind of crazy looking back at the 2017 draft that the Browns drafted when they passed on Patrick Mahomes to draft Miles Garrett. And you still can't look back at that right now and be like,

that was a bad pick. They made the right move considering all the information that was available to them at the time. And they got one of the greatest past rushers ever. Amazing player. And then I thought, I thought, this, I know they lost, but Shane Steichen, he's passing every test he gets in his first time as a coach. And I think one thing this proves is that he's such a good play caller when the defense presents

a stationary target. And I think like that's kind of been the secret to the success of Cleveland's defense is they kind of just line up and beat you and they just bully you and they beat you up. But they don't try to fool you too much. If you don't try to fool this this Colts offense with Stiking call in the plays, like he gets to the right run. calls. He knows how to push the right buttons to take advantage of what you're doing if he knows the answers before the test. And I know they lost and what are they three and four now, but so far, so good with the head coaching hire. And I know Anthony Richardson is hurt, but like this is the perfect quarterback for this type of coach, as we saw in Philadelphia when

you had Jalen Hertz. So I would be excited even though you lost this weird game if I'm an indie fan. Next winner? My next winner is the Falcons. who somehow won a game when they were like, peak falcons. Five red zone drums. They won the game 16 to 13. They were in the red zone five times, and they scored twice.

And they scored twice because Desmond Ritter fumbled three times. And each fumble was more absurd than the last fumble. It was insane. The goal is like an odyssey. They should have dominated this game, honestly. Like, Ryan Nielsen, the defensive coordinator, first year defensive coordinator,

came over from New Orleans. One of the more impressive coaching jobs we've seen across the league. This Atlanta defense has been terrible for as long as I can remember. I know they made some key acquisitions. Like they brought in some defensive linemen. They brought in some guys from New Orleans. Obviously, the big signing was Jesse Bates. They bring in Jeffrey Okuda from Detroit in the trade.

But it's not like this is like an all-star roster. And this defense is playing at such a high level, like borderline top 10 level. And they just totally shut down this buck's offense. Like the Bucks running game, the playoff. action game, everything they've been doing on early downs really well under another first year coordinator, Dave Canales, who's another like hot coaching candidate, just kind of like the Ben Johnson-McDonnell thing. Like, the defensive guy totally dominated this matchup.

And that's the reason why they won. And that's kind of been the case with Atlanta all year. And we were talking during the offseason when we were talking about them, it was all about their offense, which hasn't really shown up, but it hasn't mattered because their defense is so good. And that was the case in this one. another win where the formula is good defense and the offense just does enough. They're trying to kill Arthur Smith. Yes.

Desmond Ritter in particular is trying to kill Arthusman. No, he's trying to just like mentally incapacitate this man. I mean, the sequence where Drake London like somersaults into the end zone but then gets ruled down at the one and then the Falcons challenge, they lose the challenge, but they still have first of goal. And then after all that, that took like eight minutes, Desireter just fumbles the ball inside the five. So bad. The way that Arthur Smith looked on the sideline was like devastating, but also entertaining.

And guess what? It got worse. His other fumble when he's like they run a zone read. The bucks don't pay attention to Desmer Ritter. It was the second time they've run it around the goal line. He just walks into the end zone. He doesn't see Antoine Winfield coming. from behind.

Great effort played by Winfield, by the way. And he clubs the ball out right as he's about to cross the goal line. Ritter didn't switch the ball to his outside hand either. That's the problem. And that's like, I know it's such a small play and I don't want to judge like Desmond Ritter off of one play. But it's kind of the theme with him is he just makes these losing plays when you give

him a chance to make him. But it's also not one play. He's the week after they, they had some really bad situational football moments against Washington. It wasn't even one play in this game, right? He's the first player to win a start with three red zone turnovers since at least 2000. And I'm going to say something that doesn't sound, it sounds dumb, basically, based on what we were just saying. He was pretty good in the game outside of those three plays.

Yeah. He made some good throws. Most things were fine for them other than just like completely drive-killing mistakes. Yeah, this was, do you know what this game was like? It was like the week one game, the Vikings versus the Bucks where the Vikings just fumbled the game away. Only somehow in this one, the team that fumbled all the time won. Like the Bucks somehow lost this game, even though they got all this luck. I know the Bucs still have a chance to win this division, but the past couple of weeks we've seen kind of the floor for this offense.

And I don't know. I just don't think it's enough. I think this is the Falcons division. after what we've seen the past couple of weeks. I know the Falcons are only four and three, and they found ways to lose games. But I still think this is the best team in the division. I think this game proved it,

even though it was a 16 to 13 game where they needed a last second field goal to win it. Maybe they've found all the ways already. Maybe they'll never lose another game again. These are the Falcons. I disagree. All right. My next winner is the Steelers.

Beat the Rams, 24 to 17. They go to 4 and 2. I think the three most inevitable things in life are death taxes and Mike Tomlin as an underdog. This is just like a this is not a win. I think that's particularly meaningful in terms of telling us things about the Steelers that we didn't already know, telling us things about the Rams that we didn't already know. But watching Pittsburgh find a different, just sort of weird but smart or at least situationally savvy way to win every week is one of my favorite sort of ongoing series in the NFL.

And what happened this time was that they're pretty sleepy most of the game, but then they put together 191 of their 300 total yards in the fourth quarter. And then there's two minutes and 12 seconds left in the game. and they run a quarterback sneak with Kenny Pickett. And he trips over one of his linemen, but then maybe gets it. They take the chains out. It's really close.

The spot is iffy. But the Rams can't challenge it because there's two minutes and 12 seconds left on the clock. It would be automatic inside two. And they have no timeouts because McVeigh, for all of his many talents can be a little bit liberal with the timeouts and he's used them all already. And then the clock ticks down to two minutes

and the Steelers just kneel it out and win and go to four and two. I'm with you. Like, I don't know how to explain this. I'm supposed to, I'm paid to offer analysis on this game. I don't know. It's beyond Mike Tomlin weirdness.

He just figures out a way to win this game. He won eight games with a guy named Duck a couple years ago. So nothing shocked me anymore. I'm not even trying to. I mean, look. Like the Rams are a plucky team. Pook and Akua had another great game. They don't have outside of Aeron Donald the type of pass rush that can really give Kenny Pickett a ton of trouble.

The Steelers receivers were able at times to take advantage of some one-on-one matchups on the outside. You know, the Rams losing to the Steelers is not like a crazy result, even though Los Angeles has been encouraging. I just, you know, life's rich pageant. It includes the Steelers winning a lot of football games in a lot of interesting ways. And this was a new one. This was a really new one.

I will say this. I think it's easy to forget that the Steelers do have a lot of talent on the roster. Like they get Deontay Johnson back. George Pickens had a big game, had over 100 yards. Yeah. TJ Watt has been maybe the best. best defensive player in the NFL. He had a big interception of Matthew Stafford that really turned around the game.

Like the Rams had a chance to extend the lead to double digits. They get intercepted. The game gets tied. And basically that sparks the comeback for the Steelers. But it's easy to forget because we've seen the Rams. They have been competitive that on the other side of things, they don't have a lot of talent. And they are relying on a lot of, or a handful of stars like Matthew Stafford, like Cooper Cup, like Nakuwa.

surprisingly, like Aaron Donald. But outside of that, they just don't have a lot of depth, whereas the Steelers do have a lot of talent, but maybe not the coaching to get the most out of it, especially on the offensive side of the ball. What do we think about the Steelers team, though? Like, are they a playoff threat? Because it's easy to dismiss them just because of the struggles and the Matt Canada stuff, the stuff with the burner.

They are the Steelers. They haven't like made the playoffs and made a run in a couple of years. But if they keep hanging around and they keep winning, they might find themselves playing in January again. Yeah, I mean, I think the New York Times playoff model is one of the ones that starts tracking earliest. So grain of salt, right, because a lot can change in a couple of months. But they're over 50% probability to make the playoffs right now. How much of a threat they'd be when they are there.

I think this offense basically never gets over, you know, 24 points, right, is kind of the max we ever see this team scoring their output kind of ends there. So I don't think that they, I feel comfortable saying that I don't think that they belong in the same classes as the teams where we're asking questions like, can they make a playoff run? But can they make a, can they make the playoffs? can they have yet another season where they finish above 500? And Mike Tomlin just yet again looks like one of the most impressive team leaders in the sport, with maybe the exception of how he's choosing to let that offense be run, which, you know, it's, it's a mystery. But all of that, I think, is solidly within the realm of possibility because I don't think the offense is necessarily going to get,

worse, right? And they're already doing it. Yeah. They're in every game against good teams. It doesn't matter. They play up to their competition every week. And this is another example. And it's pretty, I mean, that's a hard thing to do, right? Because at a certain point, you can, can trace all the decisions that were bad decisions and say, why is Matt Canada still the offensive coordinator and why is Kenny Pick at the quarterback and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. but when the game starts, those things are true, right? And you just have to make what you can make out of it.

And they're in L.A. And it is L.A., which gets road crowds. But half the people there are Steelers fans, maybe more. The whole operation is really impressive. Yeah, it works for them. Congratulations. I do think there is a danger of kind of falling into the trap

and being like, let's say they do make the playoffs. I think there is a danger. of being like, all right, let's see if we could take it another step forward. Let's get Canada and Kenny pick it back, run it back with them. You do the Giants off season. Yeah, don't do that. Yeah, for sure. All right, last loser.

My last loser is the Green Bay Packers who lose. This was, no, I'm calling the loser the QB Collective. And Matt LaFleur for letting down the QB Collective and their season long revenge tour on Sean Payton for his comments about Nate Hackett. LaFleur couldn't come through. and get the dub. They lose 19 to 17. I think Champaign is doing a good job.

I know we've been talking about this all year long and people have been criticizing him. What? But Russ looks like Russ. Like that was my main takeaway from this game is he looks like Russ. He's just not that good anymore. But he's still doing some of the things

we saw at the end of his time in Seattle. Like he's scrambling again. He's throwing a good deep ball again. He's still missing. open guys over the middle of the field and taking bad sacks. But that was always the case with Russ. But I do think Sean Payton has gotten the Russ offense on track in ways that Nate Hackett never could.

Okay, first of all, think about what you just said and what kind of bar you're setting. I cannot believe that an hour and 10 minutes into this podcast, you dropped. I think Sean Payton's doing a good job. That's incredible podcasting, Steve. I have to push back against this notion that, like, What did we talk about all offseason? What have we been talking about since last year about the Broncos job? It's the worst job in the league.

Nobody's going to win. You're saddled with this terrible contract. The roster's not good. And then they start losing games and everyone's like, oh, man, Sean Payton is really, should be embarrassed. They can't win. That was always the plan. This was always going to be a year zero of the rebuild.

The fact that there's any silver linings, the fact that we could say Russell Wilson doesn't look like one of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL is a win in my book. No, Russell Wilson, Russell Wilson had historically been not an amazing, you know, not Patrick Mahomes, but Russell Wilson before he got to Denver had pretty consistently been a like middle tier decent quarterback. He was higher than that. Yeah, I was being generous to you. Okay. 12th. Let's call him like 12th in the league or something around there.

and was usually part of, you know, bottom of top 10-ish offenses. And then he goes and gets stuck with Hackett, and it is unbelievably bad. And the thing going into this year that Sean Peyton, it seemed more than reasonable to me to expect, would be that he would have a positive impact on Russell Wilson. And I think he has. Now, some of that is just because the Hackett stuff was really, really bad. But it seems like he has got Russ in a place where he has an appropriate understanding of what his physical abilities are right now. And they've found some of the deep ball stuff and much more is working.

And it looks a lot better than it did last season. But the thing with Sean Payton is that he builds himself as like a czar. He builds himself as a program builder and someone who has to have never ending control of every facet, of an organization. And that is where I think he is not doing a good job. Is Sean Payton a very good offensive coach and very good at working with quarterbacks? Yeah.

And I think you're right to point out that that's coming true. But I will not stand for John Payton is doing a good job. He has created so many unnecessary headaches for this team. Okay, that's true. I'm not saying off the field he's been good. Like, yeah, if he didn't make any of these comments, and maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they're like, they lost to the Raiders in week one by one point.

They lose to the commanders in week two by two points. If those two games go the other way, we're talking about a four and two Broncos team right now. And this team is not good enough to be four and two. They're nowhere close to it. And I do think, like, even the Vance Joseph higher, which I think was the biggest mistake he's made more so than saying Nate Hackett did a bad job last year, which, by the way, he was right. the defense is better.

True. But that's not the first time that Sean Payton has made poor choices of defensive coordinators is a part of that conversation. Yeah, but that's part of the, right, right, that's part of the package. Like, he's going to say wild things in public. He's going to, it's going to backfire tremendously

like it always did in New Orleans. He's going to hire bad defensive coordinators. He's not going to win a Super Bowl. Like, this is what they signed up for. Like, I think they're getting the Sean Peyton experience. That's all I'm saying. I don't think he's like, underperformed.

But I do think there's this notion that he's not like living up to the hype. And this is, no, this is what the hype was. Two wins. That's not what the hype was. This man gets like magazine profile treatment. He's so deeply respected in certain corners of media that when he went off about Hackett, a half dozen serious people jumped at the opportunity to be like, Sean Payton has never made a mistake.

Sean Payton has never once done anything that he didn't mean to do. That's a real thing that happened. I'm just happy that he got one back at the QVs. Because they've been, have you seen their timeline every Sunday? It's shit on Sean Payton day. That's very funny. I have not seen their timeline. Oh, I check it every Sunday.

I didn't check it this Sunday. What's going on with Green Bay? Because as we're talking about the Sean Payton experience, I will say. this is one of the worst defenses in the league. And it strikes me that they had that Green Bay, had that Raiders lost two weeks ago. That was a little worrying in part because Lafleur had pointed out that the team had this long break between their Thursday night game

in week four when they lost to the Lions and that Monday game to self-scout and to get better and to work on some of the stuff that they'd been struggling with. And then they lose. And he pointed out that they had the by week to do the same thing before playing Denver. And then they came out slow again and didn't score in the first half. And these slow starts have been really tough for them. And now they're doing it against. The Broncos, who I agree with you, are slightly improved on offense,

but are definitely not defensively. So for a season that had seemed promising in certain ways in Green Bay and with a coach who I have a ton of respect for and think is one of the better coaches in the league, it's strange to me that they are having these slow starts and are not able to come out after these periods when they have so much time to clean it up and they have so much time for coaching. and it's just not translating. Do you think there's any common thread and why they keep starting so slow? I mean, I honestly just think they're young. They just make so many mistakes on offense. There was a funny comment.

I think it was Jair Alexander during the week. He was basically saying the defense knows the offense is young and they kind of have to make up for it. And then Russell Douglas was asked about and he was like, this is the NFL. There's no time to be young. You've got to do your job. So it was like two different quarterbacks, like saying completely different things.

But when I watch this game, I didn't think Jordan Love was that bad, honestly. I think like the receivers weren't running great route. Like he wasn't good. I'm not saying that. He just wasn't like a disaster like you would expect when you see the score, especially against this defense, which has been so bad this year. But I think it's just like pre-snap penalties. Receivers running the wrong routes at the wrong depths.

Jordan Love too, like sometimes his timing is thrown off, sometime its accuracy isn't that good. But I know this is a cop-out and maybe not a great answer. Like an answer you want to hear as a Packers fan, but I think if you just give this offense time, they'll figure it out. Maybe Jordan Love isn't the quarterback, but if he's even decent, I think they have enough pieces.

And I agree, like, LaFleur is a good coach. He's a good play caller. I think the offense will be fine. We saw them figure it out last year when things look broken. But for me, it's just Joe Barry's defense. And this is one of the reasons why I, I wanted to compliment Sean Payton because he's leaned into the extreme Russell Wilson offense totally. And he did it this week where if they were under center, they weren't going to pass the ball.

It was just run. Whenever they wanted to run the ball, they were getting under center and they were running the ball. The only time they passed it, they would do play action, which you protect Russ from being in a tight pocket. But when they were in shotgun, they were like 85% pass. So like Joe Barry had the answers. When they lined up in gun, they were going to pass the ball. When they went under center, they're going to run the ball. Broncos were like able to move the ball fairly well, both on the ground and through the air.

And I just think it's an indictment of Joe Barry because this was like a siloed offense that was just basically telling you what they were doing based on their formation. And you still couldn't really stop them when you need it to. It's not as though that's that's not a defense with talent for sure. All right. The final loser of the day, the Las Vegas Raiders who lost 30 to 12 to the Chicago Bears led by Mr. Tyson Bayesian out of Division 2 Shepard University out dueling Brian

Hoyer and just a fabulous exciting high stakes NFL matchup. No, I'm just kidding. How are we talking about this on the pod? We need to raise our bar. I'm sorry, listen. I have something that I think

is meaningful to get to. I also look, I am I am a sucker, no matter how ridiculous the game is. I am a sucker for when you get to see the locker room after and the guy who is never supposed to play, it gets a whim and everyone's cheering and he's like trying to hold back tears, but it's also so excited. And then it was Tyson Bejit who has a lot of very weird tattoos, but that's okay. I'm happy for him.

So I thought that was fun. I'm not going to look he looked okay it was tons of quick throws tons of screens he didn't throw a single pass over 15 air yards they just tried to attack the edges and got some help in the run game there's a kernel of something meaningful to me when we talk about this this bears offense as a whole and what it's looked like with fields and and the different iterations of it where Tyson Bayesian can just can step in there and have a pretty competent performance. I don't think that that's meaningless, but I also don't think that the Raiders are a good team. And I don't want to take too much out of a game where Brian Hoyer ends up getting benched after throwing two picks and Aidan O'Connell comes in and finishes the game and gets the only touchdown for Las Vegas.

Here's where this game matters is we are coming up on. the trade deadline. And earlier this week, Devante Adams said that he has been frustrated by his usage. Yesterday, there was an ESPN report citing Raiders sources saying that they would not trade him before the deadline. Still think that's pretty unlikely. But Hoyer really tried to feed it to him. He had seven targets in the first quarter alone.

But the Bears covered it up pretty well. He finished with 12 targets, but only 57. yards. There was a particularly bad throw by Hoyer that could have been a touchdown to Adams, but it was a miss. Again, still pretty unlikely, I think that a player of that significance, right, would get dealt. But if he was frustrated last week, I guess they tried. But I have a sinking suspicion that it's a little bit more of a general frustration than just you're not throwing me the ball enough. So I would at least keep an eye out if those frustrations mount. And then on the Chicago side, we talked about Jalen Johnson last week being on the trading block and an interesting

option for teams looking to enhance their secondary. He was was the man behind those two Brian Hoyer picks. So I don't know what direction that cuts in. Um, could have Chicago going, man, we really don't want to part with this guy unless we can get something pretty nice. But it also might have some teams around the league going, okay, that was what we needed to see. Let's go make this happen. So not a super interesting game, but maybe some nuggets as we approach the trade deadline that could be significant. Yeah. Like, if I'm Chicago and I see that performance, I don't, like, I think it's like the same problem with falling into the trap that Pittsburgh might.

fall into, but you've got to keep talent. I know it's like keeping Jalen Johnson's not going to turn around this season or anything or maybe even next season, but you have to have talent on the roster. Like that's the only way to get players to buy in. They have to think they have a chance to win games. That's the only way to learn how to win games in this league. And I think like trading out talent for draft picks just isn't a way to build a winner in a good culture. So if I'm them, I'm like, I don't know. I wouldn't trade Jalen Johnson. But if I'm the Raiders, I am trying to trade Defonte Adams.

Like there's no point in going forward with this current build of the roster. And it's too bloated to kind of do the Bears thing where you can be a young team and kind of grow and build together. Because they have like, they have the capital. They have draft picks already. They have cap space. The Raiders on the other hand are kind of like just barely scraping by. I just, they made a bad bet last off season trading for Devante Adams thinking he was the missing piece for a team that was in the wildcard game. They were one stop away from beating the Bengals in the wildcard game two years ago.

They make a bet on Devante Adams, it backfires. But now that it's not working out, like trying to make this work is just going to kick the can down the road and make the issue last longer than it has to. So if I'm the Raiders, it doesn't really matter if Devante is complaining about his targets or, how the offense is being run. I'm looking to move on just to be able to start over. And I don't think until you move off of him, you're able to start over. Yeah, and especially with, you can kind of pretend it's about the Garoppolo injury, right? Like, oh, no, our season got derailed because Jimmy couldn't stay healthy.

So then we made all these changes and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just, you know, I still think that I think that is sort of waving a white flag in a way that I think would probably be the best thing. but I'm not sure this regime is going to be willing to do. But if I were a team that could use a star receiver, I'd call and make my best offer because he can't want to stay there. And sometimes those leaks, right, the we're not trading Devante Adams. Sometimes that's not what that means.

Sometimes that means make us your best offer. Speaking of trade deadline moves out of this game, maybe Washington should call Chicago about a starting quarterback. Because they were in the offseason looking for a quarterback that had purdy elements to him. I tweeted this out midweek and 49ers fans got mad, but he's got a lot of purdy to his game. I'm not engaging with you on that.

Okay. We're going to end to the segment. All right, this has been winners and losers. Thank you again to our sponsor Uber Eats. With Uber Eats, you can get groceries, alcohol, and everyday essentials in addition to food from your favorite restaurants. In other words, get almost, almost anything with Uber Eats. official on-demand delivery partner of the NFL.

Order now. Alcohol in select markets and 21 plus to order, product availability may vary by region. See app for details. All right, let's end things with a take purge. Do you have one this week, Stephen? Yeah, I had to think of it over the course of the episode because I totally forgot about this segment

and then you reminded me right before we record it, but I have one. And it's based off the uniform matchup we were talking about earlier. I think the NFL needs to do away with all of its uniform restrictions. There are so many. Like, you can only wear alternate uniforms, like, I think it's like three times a season. You can only wear your alternate helmet with a certain uniform. You can only do that a couple times a season.

Like, why are these rules in place? Let these teams cook. Like, just let them come up with these crazy. If the Eagles want to wear their throwbacks for the rest of the year, like, why can't they do that? Who would be against it? I wouldn't be against it. Let them wear the Kelly Green.

I would never be against it. If they decide they wanted a white version of it, like in a way version of the Kelly Green, they should be able to. come up with it right now. They should design it right now and get to change their uniform mid-season. I feel like they should lean into like the college style where it seems like college teams just wear a different uniform every week. I'm for that because a lot of these uniforms are bad. So let's give them more these uniform teams, more cracks at it. Eventually, like, the commanders will fall on like a good uniform. They haven't had a good uniform in so long. So just give teams,

I don't know, just give them carte blanche when it comes to this stuff. I don't see the point. me. I like this. I'm into this. Put it on them, right? If you look bad, that's your problem. If the charters want to stop wearing powder blue because it makes them their defense soft, they should be able to do it in October. I'm going to say soft. I would never say soft. Okay, bad. I don't know what you, I don't know what you problem. It just doesn't look like it should be for defense. Might take purge. Sometimes we take purge things that we're, sort of not sure about and we're still sort of working on it, but we're thinking about it and

wondering if it might be something. This I say with full conviction. I hate National Titans Day. I'm with you here. I hate it. It is so stupid. This is a made up thing. If any one person, I guess in some ways I'm being a little bit of a hypocrite here. But if I hear one person complain about seeing Taylor Swift clapping for eight collective seconds on a broadcast, but it's just completely comfortable with grown men yelling about National Tight Ends Day every eight minutes throughout a football game. I don't understand how those two things can be true at the same time. Greg Olson is the best broadcaster we have.

I love listening to him. Do a game. If I saw this man in the street this evening, like he's also two of me. I would still throw down. We have to end it. I can't believe we still do National Tight Ends Day. The tight ends don't even like it anymore. Why he thought it was funny for like a year?

Why you blaming Greg Olson? Because he was a tight end? Because he was a tight end. So we was talking about it a lot. That's not his fault. What is he supposed to do? Ignore it? Do you know what the real culprit is?

Because there was a segment on the lore of National Tight Ends Day. It was Jimmy G. It's Jimmy G's fault. There's like a mic'd up segment. It was like in, what year was it? They showed it on the pregame show, but it was like a, it was, I think it was 2018. And it was a miced up segment. Jimmy G was talking to George Kittle before the game.

And they were like talking about how, I guess Jimmy, a part of the game playing was throwing to tight ends a lot. And Jimmy G said like, oh, it's national tight ends day as like an offhanded comment. And then George Kittle just like ran it into the ground. And then now it's a thing. So Jimmy G is to. name. Everything is Jimmy G's fault. Literally the NFL's version of like a Hallmark holiday.

I'm so annoyed. I don't know why. I don't like it doesn't hurt me, but it still does somehow. It is adjacent to the like the people complain about seeing Taylor Swift. So you're like. Yeah, no, it's like in any other example of this, I would think being upset by something like this is so stupid. But I just have to speak my truth. Every time I hear someone say national. 10thens day. I am I am filled with rage. This has been dual threat. We will be back on Thursday. And next up on the feed, Sheal and Ben will have extra point taken their deep dive of week seven. Thank you, as always, to Kiara Givens and Eduardo Ocampo for their work on socials and Isaiah Blakely for producing this episode with additional production supervision by Arjuna. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Vandal is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC,

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