The Ringer NFL Show - What Has Gone Wrong With the Seattle Seahawks?

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

Nora and Mal are joined by The Ringer’s Danny Kelly to talk about what has gone wrong with the Seattle Seahawks and how they should move forward (5:15). They discuss their offseason transactions over the years, the Russell Wilson situation this past offseason, and much more.  Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Mallory Rubin Guest: Danny Kelly Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Mallory Rubin. And I'm Van Leithin. Check out the Ringerverse podcast from The Ringer for all things, superhero movies, nerd culture, and fandom entertainment. We have instant reviews and fun takes on all the latest news and more available now on Spotify. Hello, and welcome to the Thursday edition of the Ringer NFL show. I'm Nora Finciotti. I'm here as always with Mallory Rubin.

And I've got good news and bad news. Bad news is that the Seattle Seahawks are 3 and 8. The good news is we've got Danny Kelly here. to do a little Seahawks therapy and talk about what has gone wrong with us. Danny. Hello. How's it going? Welcome, D.K. It's going. I wish we were meeting under happier circumstances. I know. When you guys message me, I was like, do we have to? But also, it's going to be therapeutic. It's going to be nice. Let's talk it out. Let's kind of get to the bottom of this. Maybe it will help me move on, move forward with my life, things like that. As our listeners will

will be brought into over the course of this pod. Mal and I slacked Danny about coming on this show and talking about the Seahawks with us. And one of Danny's responses was, yes, I'll drop some brief notes in a Google doc. Not very long after I opened up that very Google Doc. And there were just pages of missed draft picks and free agent signings written down with commentary.

The commentary could be the entire pod. Just select readings of Danny's parentheticals. We did consider just letting you read read Seahawks transactions. Maybe we still lost. For like, I don't know, 40 minutes. We run the tape. We stop it. Just put it out there.

Just a long list. I'm not going to lie. This is literally my process. I poured a stiff drink. What drink? just whiskey on the rocks. We need the details, you know? That's what really brings a scene to life.

My usual choice is the... Bourbon man, rye man, single mall. Scotch guy or Irish whiskey, either one. I like a lot. Got it. And I'm not going to lie, I just go with like the Costco generic stuff. So there's a Costco brand scotch. Like a blended scotch.

Yes, it's like Kirkland blended scotch. They have great wine. I'm not going to lie. It's good. Like, I have some good scotch, but, like, the Kirkland stuff is pretty good, especially if you're drinking it on the rocks. Like, I'll go with, like, the better stuff, like, neat or whatever. Yeah, I'm not surprised by that at all. Yeah.

Is this the same logic you're going to use to talk yourself into the path to rebuilding the Seahawks? Not going to lie. Speaking of Kirkland brand supplies. It's fine, really. This has been the Kirkland brand roster construction for the Seahawks here. But wait, okay, so you pour a stiff drink and you just, like, dive. write a bunch of names down. I went back because sometimes it's like hard to remember all the actual moves.

They had to like go and Google like Seahawks free agent classes and like remember some of these things. I had no memory of a few people, which says a lot. And so it was just like a cathartic thing. I went and made the lists. Tried to remember like what happened with all these players and it was very hard to remember any of them. I said to you guys, I don't know how the Seahawks have a roster right now. I don't know where they got all their players because they certainly didn't get any of them from the draft or from free agency. So where are these players come from?

I don't know. But like their drafts and their free agent classes over the last like seven, eight years have been. I mean, you could argue the worst in the NFL, like straight up atrocious. So we're going to get into it. But that's like kind of like the foundation for what we're going to talk about. Or the absence of the foundation, crucially. Yeah. The lack of a foundation.

Yeah. I'm just picturing D.K., like, holding a glass of whiskey, sipping, sipping in this, like, majestic, relaxed space, and you know that all he's thinking about is, like, Eddie Lacey. Yeah. But here's the thing.

You know, we're sitting here with each other. It's December 2nd. It's Spotify wrapped season. And I think Danny should really lean in and make Spotify wrapped cards for all of these draft classes and free agency classes. You know, You spent X number of minutes with this busted offensive line pick. You are in the top 1% of viewers of this person's tape.

Your most listened to genres are old, like bad offball linebacker prospects that probably shouldn't have been taken in the first round. Actually, the off ball linebacker is like one of the better ones. Your audio aura is you need to run the ball more. Oh, man. What was your audio aura? Mine was hopeful and wistful, which I was delighted to see. I don't remember, but it was like the color was like green and blue.

Mine was hopeless romantic. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. This all tracks out. That checks out. All right. So what we're going to do instead of just having Danny Reed failed draft picks and free agency signings in order.

I still think we should consider it. We're going to go through sort of three. basic questions of where are we, how do we get here and how do we move forward? We'll start with, is this, in fact, the end of an era, an era of Seahawks football dominated by Pete Carroll, Russell Wilson, John Schneider. We will move on to what specifically happens with Russell Wilson. And then we'll talk a little bit about, you know, if it is indeed the end of an era and Seattle needs to rebuild or if they just need to rebuild to not continue to have losing seasons,

which it seems like they're on their way to where they kind of go from here. But, Danny, will you give us your take for starters on is this truly the end of this last glorious era of Seahawks football? Because if they do indeed finish with a losing record, it would be the first time in 10 seasons that they've done so or finished worse than second in the division. I think, yeah, generally speaking, it does feel like it. I think for the first time in a long time, in like a decade, I'm pretty, I feel confident that Russell may try to leave the Seahawks, may try to force a trade.

I've talked about this in the past. Like, he's looked at what Tom Brady has done. You know, obviously he didn't force a trade, but he went to a new team that was very committed to like building around him, all this stuff gave him like all, gave him the world. let him pick all these players and bring gronk back and all this stuff. He's seen what Matt Stafford did, forcing a trade out of Detroit, where obviously Stafford didn't feel any sense of a future there, didn't feel like the team was like building a contender around him and he forced the trade to and got to the Rams.

Obviously, a few weeks ago probably would have looked a little different because now things are kind of going off the rails in L.A., but like generally speaking, I think Russell Wilson, who, whether you believe it, whether I believe it, he believes, that he is going to be like an all-timer. And he wants his legacy to be one of the greatest players of all time and wins multiple Super Bowels, blah, blah, blah. He definitely believes that, like, anybody that's watched him talk, like he clearly believes this.

And I think that that's why this could end up going this way. However, I think I'm leaving the door open, like, the fact that that might not happen. I mean, he's still under contract. But it does feel like the end of an era, for sure. which is weird it's bizarre if that is the case then i think there's an interesting discussion about okay we how did we wind up here right because we've talked so much about the scheme particularly the offensive scheme whether or not russ is cooking or not yeah over the years and whether or not they've been able to maximize his talents.

And I think usually that discussion is centered around how they're choosing to play. Right. Not necessarily who they're choosing to play with. Right, right. And I get the sense, Danny, from what you've provided us. Yeah. That you think the personnel might actually be the issue. Yeah.

I think it's actually been, it's so funny because the scheme stuff, which has been annoying like oh like what's the best scheme for winning what is what's maximizing the talent they have on this team that's been sort of the discussion over the last few years but it's been a red herring for what's really going on which is the gradual slow degradation of the roster the talent on the roster the depth on the roster the founder like like we said before like the foundation they've built this thing on sand and it's that sand is like washed away like there's nothing now not nothing, but like the team overall is just not very good, not very talented, not very deep. The defense has really eroded over the years, like the talent on both sides of the ball, all that stuff.

So, and I think the bottom line is if you look at, like I said, their draft classes and their free agent classes over the last six, seven years, you can see exactly why the Seahawks have won three games. There's like three teams in the NFL who have worse records in the Seahawks right now. And it's like all these atrocious teams, you know, and the Seahawks have gotten there. Not because of a few bad bounces or a few bad plays. Obviously, Russell Wilson got hurt. That's not going to help anything. But I think it's a bigger issue. It's a bigger problem that really all this stuff, all this bad decision making has caught up to them.

And with Wilson playing not very well right now, instead of him elevating a bad roster or a middling roster and making it like a 12-win team like he did last year, because that defense is bad last year, you know, straight up. even though they did improve in the second half. Now it's like Russell is not playing well and the wheels have fallen off this thing. You know, there's no other, there's no redundancy because of that, like slow degradation of the, of the whole roster in general.

It wasn't that long ago that we looked at the Seahawks as one of the better drafting teams, even though there's no such thing, but at least as a team that had had a lot of success through the draft, had built a team that, you know, built a Super Bowl team through the draft and had some core philosophies about the types of players that they liked to draft that seemed like they were having a lot of success with.

So when you look at their last several drafts, are there common threads that you think tie together some of the missed picks? Or is there something that you think they're doing wrong? Or are they just getting unlucky? I think a little bit of all of that. Yeah, like early on in the Seahawks drafting history with John Schneider, Pete Carroll, like, they were able to go, kind of zig wall, everyone else was zagging. They were able to identify players that didn't fit, like, the standard for a lot of teams. And like, Cam Chancellor, just like this massive safety who hits really hard.

They had a place for him in their defense, Richard Sherman, really long, you know, not very fast or whatever based on, like, a lot of, like, the metrics that teams would use back then. But they had a place from them. They had a scheme that really fit in perfectly and all that stuff. So early on, they were able to hit on a remark, like, all-time great draft classes, right? Like historic draft classes, and that definitely carried them.

That set a good foundation for the roster for like five years. Lately, the Seahawks have, I wouldn't say there's like one thing that they've done wrong, but they have had a, I would say, a propensity to ignore some of the nerdy analytics stuff that a lot of fans, the Seahawks fans would want them to do like drafting. Like they would draft, like for instance, L.J. Collier, he's an older, non-pass rushing defensive end.

they took in the first round. Rashad Penny, running back in the first round. Like, this one's not hard. Don't let Horrell back hear you. God, I know. Yeah.

San Diego State shouts. Also, like, that one drives everyone crazy because Nick Chubb went like a few picks later. It's like, come the hell on. Like, God damn it. So, and then like before that, a lot of the stuff that they did. And Josh Schneider talked about this before.

Like the NFL, the league, pushes teams to eight and eight. Because of the way that the league is set up, number one, they were drafting late in the round for like six or seven straight years. You're just generally speaking not going to get as good of prospects later in the round. The schedule that they face, like you're facing good schedules every year because you're a division winner, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like all these things push teams to eight and eight and you have to like, to escape the gravity of that. You have to draft well.

You have to make savvy moves in free agency and you have to develop well, all that stuff. Like the Seahawks have fallen off on all that stuff lately. They're not drafting well. they're making really easy mistakes. Like this last draft, which I'm still going to, like the last two drafts, I would say is TBD. But like, I was dry. It drove me crazy that they picked Wayne Estridge because it was like, this guy's 24. He played at a lower level.

He's not very, like he's small. Like these are all the classic mistakes that teams make. He was a late, a late bloomer in college at a low level. It's like all these things like, but like you can get away with. with a few of these things here and there. But like the Seahawks have continually like gone against what like analytics would say. And I think it's come back to bite them over the years. Danny, I'm curious, you know, to that point specifically about drafting because of their sustained

success in the portion of the round where you're just, you know, inherently not going to have access to the top tier prospects. Yeah. I'm curious to, I mean, I mean, that is obviously like just true, right? that is intuitive and that is a fact. But isn't it also true to, you know, circle back to what Nora was observing and asking about a few minutes ago, that one of the keys to the Seahawks drafting success, you know, before the dip was that they were able to identify consistently the prospects who weren't just in the top, you know, 10 or top five, or whatever of the draft.

If you look at something like the 2012 year, of course, as this fulcrum moment, not only across the league, but for their team where you're getting, of course, like Wilson in the middle rounds, Bobby Wagner. That was the preserving draft. Like all of this spark stuff, the Nike Spark stuff, right? And how the Seahawks were the poster team for that movement of studying the, you know, Kevin or our guy, our colleague,

Kevin Clark has written about this many times over the years of the ringer, like, how the Seahawks became the face of this draft movement built around specifically focused on, focusing on explosiveness and athletic traits and that that was so core to how they were able to, like you're saying, like Zag, right? Is it that they have. Spark with a cue. Spark with a cue. Is it that, so is it, you're noting, of course, the reluctance to embrace the analytics movement. So that's central, right? It's consideration. But specifically with something like, the ability to identify the prospects who are going to be able to fit into what they're trying to do and make a difference, how much of it is that other teams caught up or passed them, and how much of it is that the Seahawks

with the same brain trust, that Snyder Carroll, Brain Trust, that has been there for this decade of excellence have stopped being able to actually pinpoint the players who are going to be able to excel for them. Yeah, I think there's like the first point where

teams caught up. I think that's definitely a thing. And I mean, if you look at the CX, so in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, CX had like a historic defense, one of the best defenses of all time. They were really, really consistent for like three or four straight years. And that obviously spawned copycats. And across the league, a bunch of teams started playing the Ciac's brand of football, like their assistants got hired. And it spread across the league. And then all of a sudden, everybody's looking for the next Richard Sherman. You got teams reaching on, on players that aren't really that good, frankly,

because they're tall and have long arms. And they're like, oh, this guy can fit into our scheme, even though he maybe doesn't have great instincts or can't have ball skills, things like that. And so you saw that sort of spread around the league, and so the Seahawks edge all of a sudden, that's like getting dull. And the athletic stuff,

I think that's still something they do and it's important to them, but also I think there was a few years there where they had all these freakish athletes that were the top of their spark list. I'm not even kidding. We were running the field goals blog back in the day. We identified like four of their draftics in one year

as highly probable to take these guys. This late round guy, yeah, because Spark, they were so high on Spark. They were definitely going off Spark in terms of like this guy is super explosive. We can coach him into a good player. Most of those didn't work out. What draft was that, Danny?

Do you remember it? So in 2012, guy like, I think G.R. Sweezy is super athletic. They decided they wanted, he's a defensive lineman. They're going to try to turn him into an offensive lineman. And then in 2013, 2014, there was definitely some guys that were like super, super, athletic that just weren't very good at football. So in then 2015 was the big one.

Christian Socoli for Seahawks fans who remember, he was a six-round pick. He's like this random no one that no one had ever heard of. But he was a three Sigma athlete. In other words, he was like three standard deviations, like more athletic than other players at his position. No one ever heard this guy. And we're like, this is actually going to love this guy. And they picked him in the six rounds.

So that was like kind of one example. And then they turned him, they tried to turn him into an offensive lineman. And but like generally speaking, like most of their like, this guy's a really good athlete. We're going to turn him into a football player. Those didn't really work. It just didn't have. for them. So then they got away from it. And I think also like one thing with the Seahawks is their

drafting has been very reactive to what happened the year before, whereas instead of keeping like one philosophy, like the Ravens have established sort of their philosophy. And this is probably why they hit so often on later picks. They're drafting the late round and they still happen to have great drafts because they have their philosophies. They have their like process. And that ported over from Newsom to the DeCasta era and has been like consistent through line of their approach. Yeah. And the Seahawks have seemed to be like, oh, God, this was like a problem for us last year. So we got to like do this. You know what I mean?

Like that was why I think they picked Rashad Penny. It was like, oh, we had injuries at running back last year. It was really bad for us. It hurt us. So we're going to take this guy, Rashad Penny, who at the time, they're like, this guy has the best, according to our injury metric. He's like the most healthy guy like or whatever. Like that was a big part of like the reason they picked him.

And then ironically, he's just been hurt his entire career. So, um, I don't. know, a lot of the stuff they do is sort of like reactionary to like what happened last year instead of just sticking to a philosophy and building for the long term, they're like, we got to do this this year to like make it work or whatever. And I think a lot of it basically like the big picture is they've been trying to use duct tape and paper clips to like keep this thing together while Russell Wilson's in his prime. I was actually talking to a buddy of mine who covers the Seahawks. And he was he pointed out that it was sort of like the Ryan Gregson era

cults and I was like holy shit it was like everything that you look at and grays and actually worked for the sea ox by the way in like 2019 um but like it was just like signing bad old free agents uh that that didn't pan out um you know making bad trades making like reactionary moves um and basically just like the roster fell apart around luck luck was able to like keep it rolling because he was luck um but like the bottom fell out at one point right and And it was just like there was no talent on this roster. So it's like kind of like that that's kind of like a, I think a very interesting parallel with CX.

Well, speaking of free agency, we went through the draft. And obviously that hasn't been great. But without putting words in your mouth, DK, seems like you think that free agency is, really where those struggles have been. Would you be so kind as to walk us through the last several years of Seahawks free agencies? I think, yeah, it's like people can't.

to get distracted by the terrible drafting. Like the CX free agency has been arguably worse, you know, which is saying something because the CX have gotten like very few contributors. Let Russ Cook distracts from the fact that the actual issue is the personnel. But then the bad drafts within the personnel distract from the fact that free agent signings and trades have not been good either. Yeah. I think the thing that CX have done is basically they instead of signing like one really good,

young, big impact guy that can help their team. Instead of spending $10 million on a good receiver, they're like, we're going to use that $10 million to sign five really shitty free agents that are like, for whatever reason, have fallen out of favor with their team. So going back to

2017, the Seahawks' famous free agent class included Eddie Lacey, who didn't do anything. Luke Jokkel, who I think was coming off of a knee injury and then he was terrible. They signed Blair Walsh. Their one good signing was Bradley McDougald, who was really good for a while.

Then they traded him for Jamal Adams. His name will come up again. Later down the line, 2018 draft class. Foreshadowing. So their 2018, sorry, free agent class. Defensive tackle Tom Johnson,

who when I put these notes together, I literally have no memory of this person. I don't remember. That's a parent that I have no memory of this person. It just says DT Tom Johnson, I have no memory of this person. By the way, and I looked it up. So he was, he signed in the office. He was a very good player for a long term for the Vikings.

And then he came over to the Seahawks in the summer, whatever, in the free agent market. And the Seahawks tried, they were like, we're going to cut you because we don't want to pay you your guaranteed salary during the year. But the understanding was like a wink, wink deal was you're going to come back and we'll sign you once waivers clear or whatever because they didn't want his. full contract guaranteed. It was some stupid thing. And then he was like, you know what?

Fuck you guys. And then he went and signed with the Vikings again. So even though I include him, because I was basically just like these are like 2018 like free agent class. Like he was included. But he actually never even played for the Seahawks. Shamar Steven, another former Viking. Seabass, who I had forgotten was on the Seahawks. DJ Fluker, who was fine.

Barquivus Mingo. I mean, come on. Like in Nate Tice, buddy of mine, pointing this out, like the Seahawks basically sort their free agent classes by arm length and previous draft like status or whatever. So like Seacques signed a whole bunch of like former washed out first round picks. Yeah. That they could fix these guys. And it just never really worked out. Ed Dixon, I think he was injured the entire time.

Mal you remember him? Yeah. Of course. Um, 2019 is Dekhilanza. He was injured the whole time. Another former first round pick. They thought they could rehabilitate. Uh, they signed a kicker Jason Myers to a four year contract.

Um, Mike Ayup potty. He was fine. For $15 million. The Seahawks, again, it's like everything that goes against the analytics. Like they keeps giving all these kickers big money deals, even though like kickers are notoriously inconsistent year over year. Um, 2020 free agent class. Greg Olson was hurt pretty much the entire time.

Cedricabooey. He's still on the team, I believe, and he hasn't been good. Brandon Snell, he's been fine. BJ Finney, they traded him almost immediately. Chance Warmac, former first round bust, didn't do shit. Philip Dorset, former first round bus, didn't do shit. Like, this is the pattern here. Basically, they're like, we're going to sign a bunch of, like, middling to bad players.

Spend all of our cap, all of our remaining cap, instead of signing one big, good impact player. And I think, by the way, the reason they had to do this is because their draft classes suck. They have no depth. So they need to sign these middling veterans, this middle class veteran type players, to fill out their roster. Because otherwise, they don't have any players on their roster. This, Cedric, by the way, currently a Raven. Oh, he's on the Ravens now? Oh, my bad.

It's hard not to notice as you're talking. Two observations. One, you know, Danny, you, of course, hosts our. our wonderful, your co-host, our wonderful fantasy football show. And so you'll be familiar with this. I can't help but think, as you're describing this, that this sounds a lot like how I consistently botch my fantasy football teams. You know, instead of spending big on the star,

spread out my money on a bunch of mediocre players who won't make an impact, then later try to fix it all with a trade for a guy I'm sure is going to be good because of where he was once drafted, not ideal. By the way, the Seahawks signed Adrian Peterson yesterday. Just going to throw that out there. Like, what is that going to do? Come on. Bless Pete for saying, you know, what was it like we finally got him?

Like, going back to the old college recruiting days. I really would love to be in the meeting where they make the decision to do that. Because it's just like, what are you like, okay, yeah, let's go for it. This is a good idea, right? It's a head scratcher in December of 2020. That's for sure. But the other observation I was going to make, DK, just off of what you've sketched out so far,

is that this will be maybe an obvious thing to note, but it's not just that there's not one key thing. Like, you've noted a few times, oh, this is something people point to, but it's distracting from this. This distracts from X, distracts from Y, you know? A distracts from B, or like what you mentioned earlier about, the scheme issues actually being a red herring for the personnel issues.

Like, I guess what I would ask is, one, it's not that all of these things are happening at once. It's that they compound each other, right? So the effect becomes exponential. Like, if you can't paper over your bad drafting with effective trades and free agency, then you can't field a successful roster or competitive roster in the NFL period, right? but it's like they're not mutually exclusive either right so to the red herring point and i guess we can maybe circle back to some of the scheme stuff in a bit when we like look ahead and talk about

what needs to happen to actually fix this and how much of this is maybe an aberration and how much of this is like the reason for sustained concern but is the scheme of red herring for the personnel issues or are these both problems right that exacerbate you? each other because a scheme that is maybe not being properly executed in the modern day 2021 NFL definitely can't function if you don't have the personnel in place to do exactly what Pete Carroll or maybe to a lesser extent Shane Waldron wants to do. Yeah. I think that's a great point.

I think it's actually, yeah, like red herring is not the right term because all these things. It makes me think of literature though, so I love it, you know? I love it. It is sort of just. It's slight of hand, though. It is slight of hand because one thing, like, it's just like we all get, and I say we like at Seahawks Twitter. Like we all get really in arms about one thing.

And then, you know, whatever. But like we've changed over the years what we're mad about. And we're just constantly mad even though they've been generally a really good team. And I acknowledge that. Well, that's just fandom. Yeah. Yeah. Also, I mean, have you seen the Seahawks play?

Like, it's the most painful experience in the world. Even when they win. So I guess like, um, I guess what I was going to say there is like, yes, one thing that I've kind of said consistently over the years is with the Seahawks, philosophically, I think, just like Pete Carroll, his defense especially, but his offense also, I think it can, it goes, it bleeds into the offenses. Defensively, they're not a complex team. They've said, like, players have said this. Like, everyone knows what we're playing.

You know, we're playing cover three. And that's changed over the years, obviously. They've started to adapt. but generally speaking, I would not say that they're a complex team that like does a lot of deception and hides what they're trying to do, you know, things like that.

They're not like all lining up in sugaring the A gaps. They're not really a game plan defense. It's not really like, oh, here's, this is our opponent. We're going to significantly change the scheme on a week-to-week basis. Most teams,

only a few teams really truly do that, but they absolutely just sort of line up, play what they're going to play. They're the antithesis of the Patriots and Bill Belich. who changed the game plan every week. It's basically what Pete Carroll says is, and I don't know if he explicitly says this,

but we're going to line up and our guys are going to be more disciplined and be better than your guys, and we're going to win because we're consistent. We play hard, we run, and we tackle well and do all that stuff. We have really long arms. And then, yeah, exactly.

We win on those margins. But, like, over the years, the talent has clearly degraded and playing boring, general, like really basic coverages, these players aren't executing them better than the defense, better than the offense. And offensively, it's the same deal. Like, you know, the CX fandom has been, like, clamoring for more deception.

Like, it's my sort of my thing is, like, just use deception. Use play action. They do use play action now. It's improved. But, like, more motion, more things like that. Like, they have sprinkled this in and gradually sort of added stuff. But, like, I just want more because. They don't frankly have the talent on the offensive line.

They don't have the depth. They have two good receivers, but they don't have the depth and receivers to like run these really. Yeah, they don't have the depth to like run these really basic things. Like they need to get more. They just need to like use more smoke and mirrors and help the help the other guys out in other words. So like you said, to bring it all full circle,

it's all connected. The lack of talent on the team has made it more difficult for them to run these sort of like, And it's all relative, clear. I'm not saying like they are running a high school defense, but they're relative to some other defenses. Like it's sort of like, we're going to run our stuff. Their offense is the same deal. We're going to run our stuff.

We're going to execute on third down. Guess what? You suck on third down. Like you're literally the worst. The worst team in the league. So I don't know. I think that's all, it's all connected. So let's use that to talk about what happens with Russ now.

Because I don't. think he's not having a good season. I do not think that it is fair to pin the Seahawks struggles on him. He is still Russell Wilson. I think obviously as D.K., you just did such a great job of describing it is really the deterioration of the situation around him that's leading to this. But it does create this situation where it feels like the team is no longer a good match for him. Like they're in different places. It does. That's said, he's still been there for a long time.

He's been a part of that infrastructure. For the most part, they've been very, very successful. Yeah. It seemed like you said off the top that you think he could genuinely leave this offseason. I'm starting to believe he can. Everything that you hear, whether that's through like, you know, his agent planting stuff or whatever. I don't know, like, exactly what's happening here, but like, it's pretty clear. Both sides, especially last off-season, both sides were sort of planting things in the media and, you know, talking about like there was a report like Russell will play for these five teams, you know, like, where's that coming from?

Yeah. Clearly from Russell's camp. Right. And the ultimate explanation, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but was in essence, didn't ask for a trade, but yes, it's correct that those were the four teams I said I would be willing to be traded to. I would play for the Cowboys, Saints, Raiders, and Bears. But I didn't ask to be traded. there's enough smoke and there's enough there is enough like just obvious stuff that's happened

over the last few years there just seems to be it's like this weird um friction where like the best teams i would say generally like the quarterback and the coaching staff and everyone is on the same page about like what scheme we're running like what's the best fit for us um like i don't know you know just it everyone's on the same page like this is what we this is how we we we win. This is what we do. Like, this is the best way to do it. And we're going to do it this way. With the Seahawks, it's been for years. Like, here's how Pete wants to do it. And here's how Wilson wants to do it. And it's like just constant, constant discord between the two. And the big catchphrase was like, tempo. Yeah. Okay. Like, they talked about tempo all offseason. Like,

the players were super excited about it. Like, it was like a legit thing. We're going to do tempo. We're going to do tempo. And it's like, no, like, tempo doesn't matter if you can't convert on third down. Their whole offense is like predicated on converting on third down because they like to run on early downs like at a higher rate than a lot of teams. Like that's that's going to set up third down situations. You have to convert. Problem is they suck on third down, as they said. And this isn't like a new thing. They've sucked out third down basically for the last four or five years. So bottom line is there's like this very weird, um,

apparent discord between the, where the team, what the team wants Russell Wilson to do and what the offense is and what Wilson, I think wants to do. I mean, Russ, dude,

he trademarked let Russ cook. Like, what do you think, you think he doesn't want to do this? Like, of course he does. Right. No,

he's feeding into this. Even if, by the way, maybe he's best off in a really balanced offense. Like, who knows? Like, I think that's up for,

maybe his best seasons in Seattle have come when they've also had a very good running game and are able to be balanced. Joey speaking, I think they should pass more, but maybe not to the point where they're, you know, trying to turn him into Tom Brady or whatever. But I think he believes that he should be cooking. You know what I mean? And so that's the important thing.

So to round it all out, yeah, I think there's a very strong sort of just incongruity or whatever between what the team wants to do, what B. Carroll clearly wants to do, and he won't budge on that, really. And what Wilson wants to do. It seemed like last, last off season for at least a moment, Russ was unhappy.

There was noise about the trade possibility. Then it kind of felt like they just said, well, we'll get you a Gabe Jackson and a Shane Waldron and you'll be fine. And Russ was like, okay, I'll take a Gabe Jackson and a Shane Waldron. That'll be totally cool. Cool. Yeah. See in July. See in July.

let's run it back. And so to me that that always said something about, okay, it can't have been that bad, right? Like Gabe Jackson, all love to Gabe Jackson, but Gabe Jackson cannot a deep, deep wound heal necessarily. Right. Do you think that the problem from Russ's perspective would be, and the problem I'm referring to is whatever, is making it more likely that he could actually leave this offseason when there were some rumblings last off season that ended up not to come to fruition. Do you think it's just that the wheels have really fallen off the bus and they're a lot worse and they're going to have this bad season and he's

sick of losing and doesn't feel like he can win there anymore? Or do you think that there's been sort of disappointment with the ways in which they tried to placate him last year and how that's gone? That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I think, like you said, I think that the Seahawks did sort of extend an olive branch in a few ways in terms of like what they did with personnel. They didn't make any like massive, massive moves. And I think it would have gone a little further if they would have traded for O'Dell Beckham, by the way. Like that would have been a bigger olive branch.

Like I think a lot of people honestly in like the Seahawks sphere were thinking and believing. And I think I was one of them like them going out and making a hard push, which. Apparently they did for O'Dell Beckham would be like a good way to kind of like keep Wilson in town long term. The fact that they couldn't land O'Dell, like the Seahawks are not a destination anymore for all the reasons we stated above. That I think could have outsized impact on kind of like the future of the team, even though like honestly it might not have made that big of difference like in wins and losses this year. It's just like the just like the idea that they could go out and get a guide that would like elevate. the offense. They need a third receiver. Go get him. I think it's kind of like the Rogers thing. You know, it's like, are we trying to win or, you know, like, I don't know, like, are you going to

try to maximize last few years of my prime? Things like that. And so I think, I think there was certainly some things they did, like the Gabe Jackson trade, all that stuff. Like signing Gerald Everett, I think was interesting, you know, little stuff. But again, it was, it was nothing, there was no slam dunk move. And that's sort of like the, in the pattern. and over the years of, yeah, here's a patch here, here's a duct tape here, here's this, that, and the other. But, you know, you look at some of the other teams that I'm sure he's looking at, like, the Bucks.

Like, they have just this elite, elite talent base. And he's like, I want to go play for a team like that, you know? Danny, do you think, like, and Nora, I'm curious for both of your opinions on this. And this is like, I don't know, maybe a silly thing to ask because it's impossible for us to know the answer. We are not mind readers. But given like what we were talking about earlier, the way Russ thinks and talks about his legacy, you know, the idea, despite everything from last season with the trade rumors and murmurs of wanting to be a life for in Seattle, like, do you think that this is going to, that he would be comfortable with this being the final note on his Seahawks tenure? Because like we haven't talked much about the injury yet, right?

And I think we have to for a minute because despite, I should say, you know, I'm not only my not a minor, not a medical professional. So with those caveats issued, I'll now continue. Despite the number of times that both Russell Wilson and Pete Carroll have said that the finger is fine, the hand is fine, that there's nothing to talk about here. He doesn't need more rest. He doesn't need more time to heal. It is, I would posit quite clear that he is not 100% and that he presumably

came back a little too soon. He just has not been the same passer and the same player since he came back from the injury. You know, their own three in those games, but just watching him play, like the timing, his timing is off. He's just not as accurate. Like the deep ball has been

there, right? Which is weird. Which is interesting. And like, of course you could say, well, the like missing element or whatever has always been the intermediate throws. I mean, that came up to go back to Waldron for a second. Our colleague, Ben Solack, wrote a wonderful piece earlier in the season about how the Waldron Seahawks marriage on the one hand presented all of this amazing opportunity, the tempo point, et cetera, right? But also to go back to another point you've made, it's all really coming together today,

the incongruity because so much of the Waldron-McVeigh offense is anchored around those intermediate throws, which is what we're going to be. Russ doesn't want to do, right? He wants to cook specifically cook deep, that faraway burner. So, you know, one of the nuggets that really stood out this week was like, this is from ESPN's Brady Henderson this week had this in his piece. Quote, according to ESPN stats and information research, Wilson has the highest off target rate among all qualified quarterbacks since his return in week 10.

So again, like, it just seems reasonable to deduce that he is not at a hundred percent. Not at 100%, right? I mean, D.K. McHath had one reception against Washington. He's not taking snaps under center. Like, that had been an incredibly, even, you know, this has not been Russ's best season the entire way, right? But he had actually been very good from under centering at a 65% completion rate, 8.2 yards per attempt, 12 touchdowns, three interceptions. He's not doing that because his finger hurts. Because my fingers hurt.

He can't do it. He can't do a thing that he'd been very good about. So it's like impossible to say that the injury is not impacting him. I don't think it is the issue, but I think it is clearly an issue. Right. So then if it is also reasonable to deduce then that that will improve, right, as he continues to heal, that his play will return to the standard that we expect. I mean, he just turned 33, right? Like that's that's not 23 but that's not 43 though again we're the Tom Brady

yeah what is 43 even really right he's got years years ahead of him so is this going to be the way he wants things to end in Seattle or has it just soured and festered to the point where it's just going to be better for a fresh start I'm just curious like what you two think about that aspect of it in terms of the decade-long union between player and franchise. Is it how he wants it to end? Probably not. But it might be, you know, I don't think that choice is going to be presented to him in a vacuum. It's going to have to be weighed against, do you want to stick it out for what could either be, if he does leave kind of a teardown style rebuild, or if he does stay, the difficult work of,

of rejuvenating a roster that's really deteriorated that still has a star quarterback. And that's not an easy thing to do. I think the other thing is it just does feel like things have gotten stale there. And that's this like imprecise sort of annoying thing to say. But the big three of Russ, Carol, and Schneider, they've been there for a long time. They've had a ton of success. but if something needs to be shaken up there, Russ obviously wants to be in a competitive environment

and he might not say Seattle as that anymore based on what they have. And also to Danny's point about not being able to go get Odell, what they're able to get. Right. The other piece of that is that so Carol, so Russ is under contract through 2023. Right.

In theory, there could be, you know, there's technically an out for the Seahawks after this year. That is pretty irrelevant because if the Seahawks are not getting anything significant in return for Russ, this is not a conversation. Carol's under contract through 2025. Schneider through 2027. They both got within the last like year and a half, they got extensions. So those guys are kind of, they're there. mean, Jody Allen is is not an owner that people have a lot of track record to pull from in terms of like how those types of decisions are going to get made.

It's not like the bears, right, where you can go back decades and decades and decades and go, well, they don't fire midseason. They don't fire midseason. Like we don't really know. But I mean, 2027, right? Because look, the thing that we're pointing to more than anything else is personnel here. John Schneider's not going anywhere. Like I just really don't think that that's happening.

Maybe I'm wrong. But one, I don't necessarily think that he should be. But two, 2027 is a long time from now. So if the decision is, would Russ want to leave Seattle where he's made his career and had so much success on a sour note, I think no. Right. But if the alternative is nothing else is really going to change, at least not really quickly, then maybe you start to feel like, okay, well, there's not really really. that many other options.

Also, well, the landing spots too, though, right? Like, right. What's in the consideration set for where he could potentially go and which of those situations seem superior to him? I mean, so it's probably, the list is probably Washington, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Denver, New Orleans, maybe Philly, maybe Miami. Cleveland?

Maybe Cleveland. Oh, God, Cleveland. Wow. Cleveland's kind of a fun one to think about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think so. But as a thought experiment, it's sort of interesting.

Danny, what would be, what kind of return for Russ would make you as a Seahawks fan okay? Is there anything? Oh, I mean, like, people have asked me this, like, oh, how many first round picks you are? No, you have to answer this question. You have to answer this question two different ways, though, because you're a football analyst and you're going to look at this with, you're going to look at this through that lens, and then you're also going to look at it just as a fan, right?

So, like, what's the return that would actually be legitimate and not only palatable, but, like, exciting in terms of what the team could do? And then what would actually be necessary to appease fans, given what Russ means to the fan base? Those are probably not the same thing. Yes, I think that's correct. I think, I don't know, this is just off the top of my head, but generally speaking, like you would expect at least the equivalent of three first round picks. So either that means two actual first round picks plus a player that's equivalent

in value, I guess, to a first-term pick. Would you say that'd be like sort of the starting point? Or a quarterback. Like they need, like in order in order to get rid of him, it would have to be like, to anything less than that, it'd have to be like you're getting a good quarterback back because otherwise you're starting at ground like ground zero and the Seahawks don't have exactly a good track record of picking quarterbacks.

And also that leads me to my fan side, which is like there's no amount of picks you could give me that would make it like a fair pick because look at what the Seahawks have done with their freaking first round picks. Like just light them on fire. You know what I mean? Right.

You might as well just cut it. I thought you were going to say because Russell Wilson is my hero and a beloved athlete in my life. No, it's just like at this point, I have not, I don't have faith that they would turn those draft picks into something that's equivalent to Russell Wilson

in terms of value, you know, rebuilding the roster, things like that, like evaluating quarterbacks. Like there's just not a good track record there. Um, you know, so I think that would be like kind of like the answer. But I would say like two to three first round picks at minimum. So that is the, the, the wonderfully optimistic note that leads us to our third and final question, which is how does Seattle rebuild?

And obviously we just mentioned that that takes on a different tone, whether based on whether it's, okay, you trade Russ and you have maybe a couple extra first round picks to work with. to varying degrees of success and use that capital to actually tear this thing down to the studs and try to rebuild it. Versus if rest stays, presumably there's more of an attempt

to remain competitive the entire time but just gradually sort of find more ways to support and build around him. What do you think, Danny, is the single most important factor for Seattle to have a successful rebuild and get back to winning. I think,

bottom line, I think they need to keep Russell Wilson. I don't think it makes any sense for them to try and be like, hey, it was a good run. We're going to rebuild. Like you said, Mal, he's 33.

Like, Matt Ryan's like 36. I think Aaron Rogers is like 38 or 39. You know, freaking Tom Brady's 44. I'm not saying that Russell wasn't going to age in the same way in terms of his skill set as some of these other quarterbacks, but he's still got three, four years.

Like, I don't think you, I don't think NFL teams can think in any longer terms than like three, four years. In terms of like the cyclical nature of the NFL, things like that. Like Russell Wilson can continue to play at a high level for three or four more years. And to go back a little bit, you guys mentioned like the health of his finger. Like that's obviously something that's affecting him. His accuracy has been off.

Like I saw Mike Sando made like a cut up of him just like sailing passes over receiver's heads at like five yards. Like it's like bizarre. However, I will say Russell Wilson does, she seems to do this like once a year where he just has two or three dog shit games. Overall, his numbers are like electric and awesome and like very good.

Historically, he's like one of the most efficient quarterbacks of all time. He does have these games where you're like, what is he doing? He's like in a fugue state. He's like he doesn't look like he knows how to play quarterback. He's like running around getting sacked and throwing the ball backwards. You know,

he has one or two of these games every year. So I think that's something that, a piece of context we have to remember too. It's happened right in a row here and it's coming off an injury, but it's also like he does seem to have these. So I think bottom line with what I'm getting to is that I still think he's an elite quarterback. I think you have to keep him. And I think you have to continue to placate him and give him a few toss him a few bones, things like that. But I think trying to reset and rebuild without Russell Wilson, like it's going to set the team back like a decade. I just don't see how that would be successful, especially based on like the

way that they've drafted and used free agency or use their salary cap and free agency. Like if Russell Wilson leaves, I'm like, I'm residing myself to like a decade of media. Oh, man. Danny, I totally agree. Like, I think, I don't know, to paraphrase your fellow Seahawks, Luminary, Mina Kimes on this week's Slow Newsday, which everyone should watch if they haven't. Some delightful insight on Kevin's potential political career. highly recommended, very entertaining viewing. You can't really think about the future unless you know what role Russ plays in the future. And if Russ wants to be there, he should be.

Like, in a way, it is that simple. I think, like, to circle back to what Nora, you were identifying at the very beginning of the conversation, because this is kind of inextricable from assessing not only how to rebuild, but whether to rebuild. Like, it's that question of, is this a blip? and is this an aberration. Now, on the one hand, you could say, well, we're an hour deep into insights and observations from our guy, D.K., about how in many recent seasons, the record, the wins and losses have, like, belie actually the inability to field a strong or improving team and that there has been this degradation of the product that actually is really concerning

and maybe like a deeper, more entrenched reality and circumstance than the recent track record would indicate. But that recent track record is also not something we can ignore. Like since 2012, the Seahawks only have that one sub 10-win season, right? They had nine wins in 2017. They've made the playoffs all but two seasons under Pete Carroll since he took over in 2010. They've only missed the playoffs once under Russell Wilson.

Of course, none of that is accounting for inevitably missing the playoffs. this year, but before this season, right? They're like one of the poster franchises for sustained relevance over the past decade plus. So especially when you look at the injury to Russ, the missed time,

the maybe lingering effects of that injury now, but also the injuries elsewhere, Carson, et cetera, some of the issues on the line, the issues with the past coverage on the defense, etc. It just, there's maybe just enough to hang on to, especially when

Russell Wilson is still your quarterback, to say, well, why hit reset just yet? Like, give it one more go with Russ signed through 2023. And then that, I think, is like bolstered by what you said,

Danny, which was one of the things I wanted to ask you about. I'm glad you mentioned it. It just becomes hard after running through that draft history to opt into a plan that is anchored on draft capital. Like, you know, Nora, you noted that Carol and Schneider are signed through 25 and 27 respectively. On the one hand, it seems almost like sacrilegious and absurd to say, well, like, what kind of faith can we put into that brain trust that, again, has been one of the most consistently excellent and dominant in the sport for a decade.

Plus, but given that draft track record in recent seasons, if the entire reason you trade Russell Wilson, I mean, now maybe it's not the entire reason. Maybe part of the reason it's just he's like, I don't want to be here anymore. and it's like when it becomes untenable, right? You can't totally ignore that factor. But from a roster building perspective, the reason becomes what can we gain from this superstar? Like what can we try to cultivate here? First round picks, high picks, other players in return.

Well, if they can't then develop those prospects, what's the point? So I don't know how the conclusion, after all of that, is anything other than run it back one more time and hope that this was just a blitz. But the last thing I want to say on that front then is that you have to look at the rest of the division, which is fucking stacked. And like the calculus has just changed in the NFC West

where it is no longer reasonable to expect coming into every year. Yeah, sure. The Seahawks do this. Now I say that as someone who went to like two weeks ago was saying on this very podcast, I'm just waiting for the Seahawks to turn it around and make the playoffs. Like we're just trained to think that that's how it will go, even with, you know, a Cahawks.

of like playoff disappointments, right? The Cardinals are like one of the stories of the season. The Niners are surging. The Rams have had a very weird few weeks. Yeah, yeah. But I don't know. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm just, like, primacy bias instead of recency bias here with this season. And I'm a little too, like, reluctant to give up on the Rams.

But I still think that we have a legit shot of winning the Super Bowl this year. And this will be a weird little stretch that they'll recover from. Now the Rams are. not exactly built to win long term, given how all in they've gone, right? Like, talk about draft capital. I mean, they don't have any or believe that it's worth having any. So that's one thing. But like, the division is just so loaded that the path to dominance is a little harder than it's

been before. And that's a factor too, right? Yeah. It's a factor that the division is stacked. It's also a factor that we need to mention that whether they have rest going forward or don't, the Seahawks will be working without a first round pick in the next draft. And that brings us to our state farm surprisingly great segment. Football wouldn't be the game we know and love without a few surprises.

And one of the surprises of the season, and it relates to some of the struggles with the Seahawks that we've been talking about, is that the Jets currently, if the season ended today, would have the number four and number five overall picks in the draft. Number five is what they would get on their own if the season ended today. But number four is the first round pick from the Seahawk through the Jamal Adams. trade, which certainly Seattle did not think that would turn out to potentially be so high a pick when they made that deal.

Right. But Danny, will you tell us a little bit, since you are a draft expert, how you would potentially go about using some high value picks at the top of the draft if you were the jets just based on which players might be available there, but also how you would look at using those if you had drafted a quarterback at number two overall, Zach Wilson. who hasn't done very well this year, but who you just spent, you know,

a huge pick on. Right. I mean, I think that they are, they're not going to give up on Zach Wilson as quickly. Obviously, he's,

you know, they're going to give him a few years to develop. Like, he has flashed, some high level arm talent, all that stuff. I think that they're definitely

going to continue down that road. Plus, they really hammered the offense hard in that draft. They traded up for Elijah Vera Tucker, Elijah Moore. I think it looks like a future superstar receiver.

Michael Carter, very good, running back. I think, and they got a steal for him in the fourth round. So if I were there, I would just hammer the defense. This defense this year has been terrible. The interplay between, like, how much a good defense could help Zach Wilson long term, I think would be massive for them.

So with four and five, by the way, it's mind-boggling that the Seahawks draft pick is higher than the Jets draft pick right now. That's just great. Tough one. Really loving that. Four and five, they're going to have an opportunity here to get like a blue chip or two defensive player, like whether it's Kavon Tibado, pass rusher, Aidan Hutchinson, pass rusher, corner like Derek Stingley.

I think that there's so many options they have early on in the draft, especially if a couple of quarterbacks sneak into the top few picks. Like, we don't know how that will go. It happens pretty frequently, like quarterbacks will rise late in the process. So they're going to have a chance to really bolster their defense here. And it's just working out perfectly for them. I mean, I can't imagine they ever had in their wildest dreams, like a top five pick in mind when they traded with the Seahawks in that one. So yeah, this is a huge, huge opportunity.

They can't squander it, but they have an opportunity here to, uh, you know, lay the foundation for their team. So it's, it's going to be really exciting for the Jets fans. Danny, any consideration given the two top five picks to trading down and trying to amass more picks and more capital given where the team is overall? I mean, I think that's definitely something that they should consider. You know, the draft is always such a crapshoot with, uh, you know, just the development of players, all that stuff, that having more darts to throw at the board is always going to be a good thing. I would say some people might not think this is like as good of a draft where you can trade back into like the teens or whatever and get as high quality of this player.

Maybe like you want to stick in the top 10. But I would say generally, like if they can get a haul for that pick, if someone wants to trade up for a quarterback, for instance, I would do it for sure just because you can get multiple, multiple guys. Plus they trade up by the way, last year they traded up for Elijah Vera Tucker. that wasn't cheap. So if they could kind of get back some of that draft capital, get some of that back, get more depth for the defense,

get more depth for offense. Like that's going to really pay dividends down the line. So at least one of them, I think at least one of them, you have the opportunity to trade back. You should do it. Jets got to be happy about how that's shaping up. Since we're talking about all things surprisingly great,

we've got to shout out the good neighbors at State Farm for offering surprisingly great rates. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. All right, Danny, thank you for joining us. Thank you for diving deep into your soul. Yeah. I hope you had.

We should have, I don't know if this is allowed, but we should have let you do this pod with a nice stiff drink. I know, right? Probably wouldn't know what's in his glass. That's true. That's true. I don't. I do not.

I want to end real quick, though, before we go, like a little bit of positivity. Like I do think that with Russell Wilson in place, like the Seahawks do. buddy they do have one thing that a lot of teams don't have which is like a high functioning quarterback like he's really good um they have dkamp mackap they have title luck who they just signed to a long-term deal um i would say and i will note obviously i was very negative about like the draft and everything the sear's last couple draft classes do have some promising players um i would say like darrell taylor's come on really strong this year uh he's looking really good um jordan brooks i think is going to be a solid player for them at linebacker i do think that uh trey brown even if he He did get hurt. He hurt his knee, but he showed a lot of promise. So, like, there are some things to be, like, encouraged about going forward. If the Seahawks can, like I said, turn some of these higher picks in the second, third, whatever, how many picks they have, I don't know. If they can turn some of these guys into contributors, we've seen what the Patriots have done this year, where they went big in free agency, found some good players in free agency.

The Seahawks can land a few good players in free agency and then hit on their draft picks, like the Patriots hit on all three of their top three draft picks. then things can change pretty quickly. So I will, I'll leave that for all the Seahawks fans are pissed off of me right now. Like there is hope, I think. And if they do end up keeping Russell Wilson, it's not like, you know, I don't think I, my bottom line is I don't think they need to just tear it down. They just need to like do the things that the GMs do and coaches do, which is hit on draft picks. So yeah.

Seahawks Super Bowl 57 champs. There we go. You heard of your first. There we go. This has been the Ringer NFL show. Thank you to Danny and Mallory for joining. this has been so much fun. Ben Solac, Stephen Ruiz, and Kalyn Jones will be coming up next on this feed previewing the week 13 games. Holy crap, it's week 13 this Friday. I will be back Sunday night with

Kevin Clark, Solac, and Ruiz to break down all the week 13 action. Mal will be back on the ringerverse feed with Joanna Robinson this Friday. Mallory, what are you guys talking about. Hawkeye. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. What a show. It's great. Protect Lucky the Pizza Dog at all costs. Danny will be back on the Ringer Fantasy Football feed on Sunday. Danny, what you guys got coming on that show? We got prop bets coming up for Friday. And then we do the green rooms on Sunday. So tune in, download the green room app. Come on. We'll do start, sit, stuff with you. We have a lot of fun with that. And then we do winners and losers on Sundays too. That sounds excellent. Yeah. We will be back next Thursday and every Thursday, most Thursdays. My switch up the schedule for the

holidays and we'll keep you guys posted on that. Our thanks, as always, to production. assistant Isaiah Blakely for producing this episode and to Arjuna Ramgapal for additional production supervision.