The Ringer NFL Show - What We’re Getting Wrong About Quarterbacks, Defending the Saints, and Playoff Predictions | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: November 19, 2020

The Athletic’s Mike Sando joins Kevin Clark to discuss quarterbacks such as Josh Allen, Carson Wentz, Jameis Winston, and more (2:35). Then New Orleans Saints fan and cohost of 'Higher Learning' and 'The Wire: Way Down in the Hole,' Van Lathan, joins the show along with The Ringer’s Nora Princiotti. Van debates The Ringer’s Kaelen Jones, who had a take last week saying the Saints are the Los Angeles Clippers of the NFL (34:05). After that, 'The Ringer Fantasy Football Show' cohost Danny Heifetz joins Kevin and Kaelen to make playoff predictions (46:50).   Host: Kevin Clark Guests: Mike Sando, Nora Princiotti, Van Lathan, Kaelen Jones, and Danny Heifetz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark, great show today. Mike Sando from the Athletic stops by to talk about quarterbacks, what we're getting wrong about the position this year, Kyla Murray, Lamar Jackson, MVP talk, and a little bit of everything, really. Then Van Lathen joins us to defend his Saints against Kalin Jones's take last week that they're the clippers of the NFL. We did that segment with Van Kailen, Nora Prenciotti, and myself.

And then Danny Hyfitz joins us with Kowin at the end to talk about our playoff predictions. who's going to win the wild card, what teams can make a run, and more. Today's episode of the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast Network is brought you by State Farm. Getting great car and home insurance from State Farm at a surprisingly great rate, that's like drafting a player that becomes an all pro, the real deal. State Farm agents provide personalized service so that you can customize your insurance to fit your needs, like a GM, putting together their very own roster. You need a team that supports you, and State Farm's got a great one.

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Not too much. Not too much at all. Good to be here, Kevin. So you did something that I think is really fun. You do, in the summer, you do the QB tiers, what you're kind of known for. But you did the revisited version at the half. playpoint. And I found it fascinating. And you didn't do a whole re-rank or anything like that, but you just checked in and said, hey, where are these guys guys, big picture? Who is the biggest riser where guys, GM, scouts, assistants, whoever it was, said, okay, this guy, we had him way too low in the summer we ranked him.

Well, I think we finally have the production for Josh Allen to go along with the talent, right? And people don't suddenly think that he's top of tier and all this. But I mean, he's got the production. And so he was already one of the biggest risers from, you know, last year to coming into this year. But I think he'll go up again from the third tier where he's at. I mean, I think he's got a great chance to come in somewhere maybe in the bottom of the second tier. Certainly if he continues to, you know, produce. With Allen in particular, what do you think NFL people, I don't know, I mean, what are the lessons going forward with Alan? I guess you could see you could put it that way. where is it going to be more guys who were drafted a little bit more raw, a little bit earlier?

Is it going to be? I mean, obviously, the lesson is always from many young quarterbacks surround them with talent. But when you talk to people around the league and where maybe their evaluations were off in one direction or the other with Alan, what kind of sticks out as far as what they're saying now? I think that people's thoughts on Allen are still their thoughts on Allen. You know, he still makes bad decisions, right? He does. I mean, the RAM game, they're 28 to 3. and then they almost lose the game, and he gets two personal fouls.

He gets two 15-yard penalties. And wins the last quarterback who got two in a game, right? In the game the end of day, he's throwing the ball over the place, he's holding it away from his body. I mean, I think all of those things, but I think one of the lessons is, you know, you get a guy who's a fit for your team, and they felt like all the way through, they have a plan for their organization, right? I mean, I think you can see the coach and GM are on the same page, right? Absolutely.

And I think they're okay with what Josh Allen is, right? I mean, they play to his strengths, and they have been able to, I think, coach him up, too. I think he's been better. We've seen flashes of big plays, but I mean, the production they've had, getting Stefan Biggs has been huge and sort of sticking with it. Now, we'll see, ultimately in the end, you know, what it means, there's such a short supply of those really top tier guys, right? So how high is he going to go?

What's going to happen when you buy that option? And, you know, their defense isn't even that good this year, right? So is you going to take them all the way? I don't know, but you've at least seen the high-end plays in production that we didn't see as much in the past. It's a different podcast, but paying Josh Allen to me is one of the most fascinating test cases this offseason. I honestly have no idea where it's going to head. But it's, to me, it's like a top three most fascinating thing of the next year is how much money do you commit to a guy like that who has shown flashes, but there are obviously still some holes there. People pay guys, though, you know?

I mean, they do. You pay a guy to not have a guy. A hundred percent. And that's it. And that's the fear of not having a guy, any guy, makes these guys so much money. Whether that's, listen, we've seen some of the, you know, Derek Carr was, who I think is a good quarterback, at some point was the highest paid player in football. He is not the best quarterback in football. The entire market is, it's not broken, but it's certainly not a well-loaded machine with quarterback, quarterback money.

All right. Opposite question. So who's a guy who? maybe the folks you talked to in the league pegged a little too high and through eight weeks through nine weeks, we've seen a little bit of a dip. I thought at the time that I thought that of Carson Wentz. Yeah. I mean, I feel like, so Carson Wentz came in. He was like 10th or 11th or something. He was one spot ahead of Dak. And, you know, in some cases, I think it's, I think draft day evaluations take about to die.

People have both seen Carson Wentz at his best and thought, you know, think that he could be great. But I think there might be something missing. You know, I don't know if it's all him or the team or a combination of it. But how could he be after this year, unless there's a strong finish, even if you think, which is legitimate, around him, it's been bad, it's all falling off, I'd have a hard time thinking he's going to be still in tier two. Wow. Okay, so

Shil Kapati wrote Where would you put him? I don't know. I mean, it's so it's so hard for me to put Carson Wens in perspective at all. You know, Shil Kapati wrote that great piece last week

about just how broken some of the parts of his game are, whether that's the intermediate throws, whether that's just his pocket presence. Anyone who hasn't read it should seek it out. I don't know what Carson Wence is because I still, and again, it's not just,

for me, it's not just the draft evaluation. It's also the 2017 evaluation. And maybe it's because I'm an optimistic person. I don't know. I keep looking for signs of that. And I feel like certain guys are just not irretively broken. And I'm not ready to, I'm on Wentz Island. And so is Doug Peterson.

So is Howie Roseman. I'm like, there are a lot of people who are. And I just think, and this is, again, I'm going to wait around for the Eagles to accidentally win four straight games to win this division with seven wins. They may do it, but let's just, so here's how I sort of conceptualized Wentz. Let's just say there's 10 factors of varying importance that were instrumental in him looking so good in 2017. And I think if we checked all 10 of those boxes, they would all be worse now than they were then.

Right. From his health, from his health, right? From the organization around him in all areas, the receiving core, the offensive line. And the offensive line's not going to be probably that good again. You know what I mean? So I have a hard time. It could have been an okay offensive line this year if Brooks is healthy and if Dillard is healthy. And that didn't happen from the start and all of a sudden thing, the damn starts to burst.

Yeah. So maybe that comes back. I mean, I think there's always been sort of a weirdness in his, you know, trying to find the receivers to grow with them or a rapport with them. How hard is it to develop a rapport with receivers between a quarterback? We act like it's going to take 10 years to get the right combination. for Wentz to have guys that he's on the same page with and it feels good with and all that. I mean, should it be that hard? Just get a guy and be and have a good situation. Yeah, I agree with it. I mean, even even the impressive nature of like what he did last year in

week 17 where he's throwing to people that, you know, he'd barely met. But this year, I read Jeff McLean on Sunday and it's like, well, they got to develop a chemistry. They got to develop a chemistry. It's like, I understand this is the weirdest season of all time. No, TAs, all that stuff. And maybe chemistry is a little bit behind the curve or whatever. But it's, it's, it's, it's, We're in the second half of the season. We're well under the second half of the season. At some point, let's just have chemistry. Other teams seem to have figured it out.

One of the most fascinating things I thought in the quarterback tiers piece from over the summer was a little bit of psychology of Carson Wentz and, you know, the leadership of him. So when you're the quarterback, you're constantly managing those personalities and guys want their touches. Right. All of these guys are looking, used to be in the old days, they'd look at the game book and the locker after the game to see how many touches they had it, right? You know, everyone's aware. And it was almost like once all of the name receivers route,

it was almost like last year, Wence could relax and just go throw it all of these guys who are nobody's, right? Well, guess what? You're going to have to manage a bunch of guys in the huddle and have reports with really good players too. And does it feel like he's had that? Is that over-analyzing? And something just feels a little off and has there.

And there's other weird things, too, like the fact that they won a Super Bowl, but it wasn't really him. You know, I mean? There's elephants in this room. You can't really see them all, but you can feel them. So I'm in total agreement with you. I mean, there's a weirdness around Carson Wences is pretty much an Evergreen take at this point. And I don't know. It's just such a winnable division. If they don't win this division this year, I don't know how to. I wouldn't say blow it up. But there need to be. extreme changes. And I don't know what that looks like. And again, it is. They got old, though. Yeah. They got to be a really old team and they tried to keep that window open and we're going to do it. And I think it's a year too long, right? They did it a year too long. I want to talk about some of the other quarterbacks before we get to more of the team building stuff.

Kyler. And I think that there's, when you talk to people over the summer and then now, do they expect them to be this good this quickly? Because I kind of did. and I expected what I expected a kind of a confidence boost and what would come around with that. But I didn't expect almost, you know, a little bit below MVP level play in 2020. The Hail Mary was unbelievable. But what is the perception around him? Is it sustainable? What does this look like inside the league with Kyler?

Very optimistic. So he came in after only one year in a league and he was a top guy in the third tier. So he's kind of that means he's like. you know, a little bit above Kirk Cousins and Garoplo, who are sort of settled in now at that top tier three, bottom tier two, depending on, you know,

if they had a good year or not. So that was really high for, for somebody with only one year coming off a rookie year. And so I think the only person in the last several years that had been that high, Mayfield got a lot of love. Baker did after his first year, but Baker Mayfield also obviously less talented in certain ways. Don't say that. Don't burst our bubble with Mayfield.

Not a comparison, because with Baker Mayfield, there was no real elite trait. And then they screwed up the whole organization. I mean, they changed the offense. They changed coaches. And now they've got it kind of going back again. But you can, I thought there was no way that that was going to happen to Kyler Murray because, heck, they had the perfect marriage of the coach. I mean, they got the coach basically to draft him, right? And they're bringing that back.

And we saw signs of success. And he is, he does have elite traits. I mean, he does have things that he doesn't have to be propped up in the scheme necessarily, right? I mean, an amazing running ability without getting, you know, just slobber knocked and hit. He scampers away. And then he can throw the ball really well. So, you know, sure, is it going to always be as easy for him being shorter standing in the pocket? No, but I think we've seen that you can still be really effective throwing the ball.

So that ability to throw the ball is why I think people, I think there's a lot of people in the league would, you know, take him over Lamar Jackson. So you wrote about that Hail Mary this week is sort of an entree into Hopkins and also Stefan Diggs. So obviously had a great game and almost won that game, you know, 30 seconds prior. What is the perception of the Cardinals franchise around the lead? Because I've heard varying things, you know, Vance Joseph's done a really nice job. And I had heard some pessimism coming into the year about that defense and how they were going to,

how they had pieces that maybe didn't fit together or whatever. I've been hugely impressed with Vance Joseph's, you know, even you saw against Wilson. in that Seattle game, just how much the Blitz has played with his mind until he threw that backpacking interception, all of that stuff. What is the perception around the league when you talk to folks about Hopkins and Kylo this week about how good this Cardinals team can be? I think it's totally shifted. I mean, you think about a place where, you know, really not that long ago, it's Josh Rosen and pictures of Steve Kine after DUI. You know what I mean? I mean, the low of low.

I mean, complete embarrassment, like people are going to get fired. I mean, it was to have this kind of a flip in one year by making the absolute right choice and being in position to make it for the absolute right choice of quarterback instead of, hey, Rosen's our guy, we've got to give them at least three years. We've got to boardles them, right? We're not going to look at all these other guys. And I think it's a much more positive outlook for them. And Dan Joseph's been kind of a pleasant surprise this year, right?

I mean, that was one where you were kind of like, go, he got the head coaching job before in Denver without really having much of a track record. There was optimism, but he didn't have like 10 years of a track record. So that suddenly looks better to me. And they've been adaptable somewhat on offense. I mean, Kingsbury hasn't just blindly stuck to everything he wanted to do in college, right? They've used the tight end more. They've shown an ability to probably grow.

So I think it's pretty darn good there in Arizona. I mean, think of it like how many other teams, even that division would you rather be? You might rather be Seattle because you like Russell. Wilson Moore. But, you know, it's tougher. It's tougher. Yeah, no, I, that whole division is intriguing to me because I would not be surprised. And the fact that Samson, too, it's kind of removed from this discussion makes even more

amazing. But I wouldn't be surprised if any, any of those three teams were playing in the Super Bowl, Seattle, Arizona, and the Rams. And I feel like people around the league also feel like that because there's just, there's a floor for all of them because there's, there's talent on all three rosters, but then the coaches are pretty good. I think that the fact that, I was talking to Simmons about this on Friday, the fact that Cliff Kingsbury is the worst coach among the playoff contenders.

And Kingsbury, I think, is actually pretty good and is growing into the role. I mean, there's just something there. There's a parody in the NFC that I think is interesting to me. I do want to ask about golf real quick, because to stay on the NFC West thing here, is, I saw some stats today where, you know, I think he might be the worst quarterback with his splits under pressure versus not under pressure. And we kind of know what golf is. but he's having his,

I guess you could say his golfiest season right now. Where are you on golf? Where are you on that Rams team? Because I'm starting to believe in them, especially with Breeze out, as maybe the team we're looking at in the NFC in the Super Bowl. I like the Rams coming into the year.

I think the Rams were treated this offseason as if they were coming off a four and 12 record. Absolutely. Because they had been so high and mighty, but people sort of had this thing in their mind, like, well, McVeigh got solved. My one sort of, uncertainty and concern was, okay, you're going from a guy who's been a coordinator for 500

years in Wade Phillips to somebody who's new at it, really an unknown, with a coach who's an offensive coach, right? I mean, Sean McBae is not going to help fix the defense. So I didn't really know for sure where that was going to go, but I felt like they were totally slept on. And that's what, I mean, after one or two weeks in the year, I wrote a column, I'd rather be the Rams than the Eagles. I mean, just where they're at. And that seemed laughable now. Of course, you better be the Rams. But coming to the season, I think people thought the Eagles, right? Some people would have said the Eagles or you like Wentzmore for this or that. So I do like where they're at.

I think that they need to be reassessed a little bit with their roster because people thought, no flexibility, they made these trades, they're stuck, they can't, well, are they? I mean, you know, as far as it pertains to golf, I mean, there's a limiting factor of golf, right? I mean, I think we realize that for most of the good quarterbacks now, there's two plays. There's the called play and there's the one that, oh, my goodness, it broke down and now it might be an even better play, Tyler Murray, Russell Wilson, even Aaron Rogers or is an older quarterback or Mahomes, right? The second play kills you. Yeah.

Rotha, yeah, all these guys, and there's not a second play with talk. So the first play can be pretty dang good, but there's a reason of why you say system quarterback, right? Okay. So on the Rams point, I think this is an important distinction because you mentioned, know they're capped out or whatever. And my general feeling on this is if you're capped out, but you have a bunch of good players, that's fine. Going all in on a team,

okay, you give over $100 million to Aaron Donald and Ramsey. I understand that part. The golf contract is really bad. But the reason you go all in is because you can have Jalen Ramsey wipe out D.K. Mekap and you could have Aaron Donald stuck up the double teams. There's a reason you're not just going all in for the sake going all in. And so I don't think the strategy that the Rams employ.

was particularly bad because they ended up with with with with blue chip players so I mean you you have look at their defense I mean look at look at darius Williams I mean I I just there's there's something there and I don't think the all-in strategy which was much maligned you know two years ago they're going to fall off a cliff I just didn't I didn't see that and I remember talking to Kevin Demoff at the Super Bowl about that he was basically to saying you know I think that the the sixers kind of process mentality shifted how everybody looks at sports. And I think that in his point, less needs point was if you can speed things up, go for it. And that's, that's what they did. So you're living in this year. It's kind of like, you know, people, people in their own lives have this idea that there's going to be this amazing

retirement waiting for them. And we're just planning for that. Now you got to live now too, right? Today's what you got. So the Rams are doing that. And it's a pretty good day when, when you got Aaron Donald and Jalen Ransy. I mean, just to, you know, arguably the best, well, Donald is the best player's position and Ramsey, I think is too. We'll do this quickly. You're in Seattle or in the Seattle area. For the Seahawks to make the Super Bowl, what happens? I think that their defense, it's funny I'm going to say this, I think their defense and running game actually for acceptable.

Not you, Mike. No, no, I don't mean that. But I mean, you have to have a little bit of it, right? I mean, I think it's been so fun to see them just be at the red line all the time, but it's hard to be perfect every week, right? So, like, it was funny, do running backs matter and all that? Well, it matters if you don't have any of the supporting context, right? So I think defensively, like, they played a decent better game against the Rams.

Some of that could have been Andrew Whitworth went out, but it was a little bit better. And I think there's some hope with Jamal Adams there that they can at least be 20th or, you know, 15th or something. Sure. If they can do that. And then just for, you know, have somewhat of a physical presence in the run game. I think Carson can help with that. I don't mean that we want to, you know, be running the ball all the time. But just remember that it's there, right?

Just balance it out a little bit, just a little bit. Because Wilson's got seven turnovers for the last two games. It's been fun. But don't go too far to where we're just winging it around. That's not always the best way, too. You know, have a little bit more of a balance in your team and roster and just in how you play the game. How real is this Lamar thing? because almost in this, again, I'm an optimistic person.

When I see flashes of brilliance, I think that that's going to sustain itself, especially with young quarterbacks, because the league is much more fun when young quarterbacks are great. When you talk to people around the league, I think there's, there is some heat on Greg Roman, the predictability to that offense and just how stale it's gotten. I understand that part. Lamar has not looked like 2019 Lamar. How real is this?

And how did the Ravens get out of it? First off, the staleness thing. I mean, give me a break. Like the second half of last year, everyone's writing how they've reinvented the game of football. And now a couple months later, it's completely stale. I don't buy that. I don't buy that that's the driving force of it. I think the mistake people make is seeing the second half of last year for the Ravens,

when Lamar Jackson had 24 touchdown passes and one interception as the default normal, Okay. So go back and look at the year Cam Newton won the MVP. The first half of the year, he had 14 touchdown passes, nine interceptions. He was arguably not playing as well as Kaepernick for that point, and Kaepernick got benched. There ain't no, great defense. No one says a word. Second half of the year, 21 touchdown passes, one interception. Wow. They've reinvented the game. This is how it's going to be. No, it's not going to be like that all the time. It's like that all the time for maybe Rogers, maybe Mahomes. I think that the first half of last year is, probably a greater indication of what's realistic for Lamar Jackson, which wasn't terrible. It wasn't terrible. But it's not always on fire. I think the more time goes by, if you're committed to this incredible run-heavy scheme, people are going to defend it better. And you may have runs and spurts, and they may have one in the second half this year. But I think we may not ever see for the rest of his career a run as amazing as the second half of last year. And that's not a knock on them. That's just a, it was such an amazing run.

Now I'm sad. Now you've got me sad, Mike. Yeah. I thought this could grow. I thought that Harbaal is done with the deep passing game opening up this stuff. And, you know, I think that teams have learned offensive lessons from the Ravens in so much that, you know, again, we don't let's not have to the running back thing. But when a running back, when a quarterback can run, that opens up lanes for the running back as well. And so I think that you're seeing some of the teams around the league understand kind of how to how to build around. a running quarterback in that regard. And also, obviously, Lamar and Kyler,

whomever, also have just an incredible ability to pass. But I just thought that I was going to see a little more evolution from that Ravens offense this year. And I just haven't seen it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I would hope for that too. But I think they're so far down the road of being that style of a team with the

tricked out running game that it's hard to then suddenly develop this passing game. Yeah, I understand that. And also, he's not an accurate passer. not an accurate passer on just pure passing situations. It's different when it's coming off the run game and a guy's running wide open and he can hit you. But third down, other situations, you're behind in the game. That was always going to be the issue this year and it may always be the issue in the future. The one thing I'll say about the staleness part of it is I actually don't think that it's impossible to have reinvented everything last year and be stale this year.

Because I think that the NFL moves so quickly. And, you know, I remember reading a Formula One book one time, a huge formula. one fan and I remember the guy, former guy named Ross Brunt, basically said that the beginning of the year, the car that wins the first race would finish last in the last race if there's no improvement, okay? Because that's just how quickly everything moves there, right? And I kind of feel like that with football where if you just took whatever, whatever the best thing was in the best roster in 2018, 2019, and dropped them in here, there are so many little adjustments week to week that everything is just getting better and better and better. And I just think there's

I can understand why schemes would age quickly, I guess you could say. And they are so scheme dependent, right? I mean, they're the most schemed offense almost that there is, right? I mean, it's certainly in an unconventional way. So I think, you know, one thing we saw, remember when they lost the chargers in the playoffs, would they play six, seven bs? You know, there's just different ways that you can kind of make it tough. And I think, you know, in the end, that's probably what more teams are doing.

And I think PFF had a pretty good piece this week. Mike Renner have a good piece. Pretty good piece just talking about people, you know, playing some different sub packages and that sort of thing. So, you know, they'll have their good days too. You know, I mean, this last game was in a rainstorm. So, yeah, that was going to my last point in the Ravens is that they are still going to make the playoffs.

They played a game in a driving rainstorm against the best defensive coach in history. And everyone's takeaway is that the Ravens are in crisis. And I just, I think there's, there's 20 and five since the start of last year. We're going to be fine. We're going to be fine. They're going to be fine. But they're not going to be that amazing down the stretch. That's just not normal.

If they did that, they'd be the best thing ever. Okay. MVP race because I think it's Mahomes. I've heard people say, you know, the PFF guys are higher than not being Mahomes because I guess he has more turnover worthy throws than, and then he has thrown. Overthinking. Yeah. That's, yep. And so I guess the question is, and this is what I asked you when we were talking about

show. So let's view it through this lens. If there was a team right now that lost the starting quarterback, which team would be the most screwed? Well, I would have a process for doing this. Okay. So the way I would do is I would look for a team that has a good record, but has a bad defense, but has a great quarterback, but doesn't have a good backup and doesn't have a proven record like Kansas City does of being able to get more from less at the position. So to me, that's clearly Seattle, right? Seattle is not good on defense. They, have a great quarterback. They don't have necessarily a good backup.

And we don't know that they're able to get more out of quarterbacks not named Russell Wilson. So to me, clearly, what would their record be? I don't think they have a game this year where they're on the positive side of EPA on defense for the whole year. As you were giving that answer, I looked up NFL defenses to see who would be in the zone here. Yeah.

And the answer is no one except Seattle. The answer is that Seattle is so significantly worse than everybody that I can't believe, listen, I knew that they were on pace for the worst passing defense of all time and all that stuff. But I'm actually, I'm actually melting down over here looking, looking at this, because there are no other good teams in this zone at all. And, and, you know, I was going to say, I think there was an argument for someone like Aaron Rogers in this case. just because I just don't think this offense, that offense works without him.

But I think you make a much interesting. Just in the sense that I've seen Aaron Rogers come out in the past, you know, five come out, get injured. And then, you know, five years ago, all of a sudden you're looking at, I mean, I've obviously, Matt Flynn, it would be, you know, separate from here in that week 17 game that made him a lot of money. But I've seen him come out of games and they just look like they've never played football before.

So I just think that there's, I'm always going to, in these situations, say that the Packers would not be able to function without Aaron Rogers on offense. But you make a great point about defense because this is just, this is just a disaster for the Seahawks right now. I agree. It's actually refreshing for me to not be the one who's having to defend Aaron Rogers because I feel like I've become the Aaron Rogers defender as people were talking about him not being as good anymore. but I do think the one thing that stands out to me about Green Bay, and I'm with you, they would be in trouble without them. But they are, they have shifted to this,

you know, more of a run-oriented offense with heavy play action, things that traditionally you can get more out of a lesser quarterback out of that. Like I would make the argument, they're not getting the most out of Rogers that they could, you know, that if you could be lining up with some weapons on the outside and putting them in the shotgun and fling it around the yard,

now maybe he'd get hurt too running around. But I think they have a struck. to that offense, kind of a little bit like San Francisco does, right? Where sometimes you plug in Mick Mullins and he has a 400-yard game. I don't know if that happens for Seattle. Two quick ones for you. Number one, what's the quarterback when you talk about people inside the league, whether this is good or bad, who have the biggest disconnect between how they're perceived in the league

versus how they're perceived among fans and media? Okay. There's a process for this, too, and it's basically this. People in media pay attention largely to stats. and people in the league pay attention to context of how those stats are produced. So you might hear somebody in the media write a column that Ryan Tanniel should be in the MVP race. Just look at the stats. Everyone in the league would say, no, no, no, they're giving them easy throws, they're doing this or that.

So that would apply to somebody like Ryan Tannhill to some degree, I mean to some people for Lamar Jackson. I mean, I think everybody acknowledged amazing player, but there's a context there that works against him with some in the league, right? Even Dak Prescott a little bit, was a little bit like that, where he had the good offensive line for a while, stuff around. Now this year, I think he showed, right? Yeah, this is the DAC appreciation season. Yeah, yeah, but you have to show that.

Even Russell Wilson early in his career had to show that. We did the top defense and the great running game. Even though he had all the great stats, people weren't giving them on credit on par with Andrew Luck, for example, who was thrown at 600 times a year and didn't have a good defense. And so that's where the disconnect forms. And so I think somebody like a Tanyhill this year would be a good, We would probably be a good example of that, maybe a little bit of Lamar last year back at times.

But that's sort of the template for those differences. Last thing we get you out of here on this, James in New Orleans. Obviously, we don't know what that injury looks like with Drew Brie's. Part of it is a collapse long. Obviously, it could be serious. But it seems like they're talking about matters of weeks. What do we expect from James and New Orleans? Obviously, we know what James Winston is, but we haven't seen him in Sean Payton's offense,

which I'm sure will look significantly different than Aaron's. one. What do we expect and what's the ceiling there? I think it's going to be more good than bad. I'm optimistic that it'll be better than in Tampa. So I don't like in there's not there's not a lot of room to go down. Well, yeah, but except they did score a turn of points. I mean, they had he was leading the league and a lot of the big play type of stuff. But I think there's a governor there on him. I think I think I said this before on him. When he went to Tampa, they basically gave the keys to the Ferrari to their 16 year old son. Yeah. You know, and typically what, you'd want to have is, you know, have a context of a run game. Don't have it all on his shoulders

all the time. Well, that's New Orleans. They've got this thing set up to manage Drew Brees, who's 41 years old and can't just shoulder it like he used to. So keep him in that context. Keep the threat of Taysam Hill there. You know, like, hey, we may, we have another guy here. You're the game. You're the Taseham Hill defender. I love it. Well, only for the context of creating a different environment, creating conditional love environment for for James. It can't be that he can just do whatever he wants. That's not the way this works. And so to the extent that they can have the little bit of a hammer over him

or you know what I mean? Yeah. This is his window. If he can't do it now making $1.1 million with Drew Brees probably coming back with a good team with Tase and help there to take snaps away from him, then we're not going to see it from them. So I think it's set up as good as it possible. can be for him. And also not from week one. He gets the whole year to come in now. So,

you know, I'll be just kind of disappointed if he goes in there and is terrible. Mike Sando, read him at The Athletic, listen to his podcast. Thanks so much, buddy. Thank you. Okay. Last week on this show, I was out, Nora Princiotti hosted. And Kalin Jones, NFL staff writer at the ringer, unleashed a take that was controversial among Saints fans. We've brought in, before we get to all of this, we brought in Nora to to help moderate whatever's going on here. I'm here in an unofficial human resources capacity. She's here to laugh.

Kalyn Jones is here. And then Banlathan, one of my favorite people on the planet, really. Thank you. And he's a Saints fan. Big time. Been on Sala Newsday.

Host two podcasts for us, higher learning and our wire podcast, Jamahov, that is incredible. But he has a bone to pick with Kaylin. Kailen, why don't you restate the take before we get to the debate? Okay, so the take was that, you know, the Saints are the Los Angeles clippers of the NFL.

And it's because of, you know, the postseason inefficiencies over the past year. And look it, look it, look at, Van, I know I know you're upset. Look it. We're not going to disregard the Super Bowl championship that won that y'all won in, what, 2009, 2010 season. But that was also 10 years ago. So over the past 10 years, there has not been too much postseason success for the Saints. you look at 2011. They lost Alex Smith in the Niners.

That was a good loss. But then 2013, lost to Russell Wilson, went to the Super Bowl. The Saints scored 15 points on the fourth quarter. And then three years in a row went 7 to 9. And then over the past three seasons, you had Case Keenham in the Minneapolis Miracle, not a good Vikings team.

Jared Gough and the Rams went to the Super Bowl. You guys got screwed out of that call in the game. Sure. But you guys shouldn't have lost that game. And then you also had Drew Brees during interception that game. We're not going to talk about that. But then also Kirk Cousins last season and the Vikings, another not good team that you guys should have lost.

So, you know, it's been these. And it's not so much for, you know, really, the Clippers have made the playoffs eight out of the past 10 seasons. So really the Saints missing out in the postseason makes them a little bit worse by comparison. If you're talking about reaching postseason. But that being said, you know, look at the severity and I guess the flagrants in the way that you guys go out

is why I'm hesitant to choose you guys pick, you know, winning the Super Bowl. The flagrants. The flagrants. All right. Flagrant losing. I'm going to let you guys handle this.

Van, you have the floor. Kaelin, you have the floor. Okay. Now, let's get into a couple of things. Number one, you just requalified. You said since 2010, the Saints are the Clippers. Okay, that's not what was said in the clip.

That's the first thing. It was like, what was said in the clip was that the Saints are the Clippers of the NFL. And let's, before we even get to the Saints, let's,

let's analyze who the Clippers are. The Clippers are team with no championships, no Western Conference finals appearances, no real face of the franchise,

no cultural support where they live. They're a second also-ran team. They are one of the worst franchises, historically, in the entire NFL.

And it's not just for what they do on the court. It's for the dysfunction, like when the Clippers clippered their way out of the last playoffs. Nobody even batted the eye. Nobody's blood pressure went up. They went, hey, they're the clippers.

All right. Now, when you compare that to the Saints, who, number one, did go to the NFC championship game against the Rams, have had some heartbreaking losses. You know what? I was on a plane coming back from Anguilla.

And the Saints playoff game was on. And I heard, heard a guy, like, scream in the back of the plane. And I turned around, and I could tell he was from Louisiana. He had a gumbo soul. I looked at him. I was like, we lost.

We lost that game. There's no way we lost that game. I looked, and then he looked at me, and we could tell. And then the rest of the flight was terrible. So I get it. It hasn't been a lot of high-level success. But in the totality of what you said, it's very disrespectful. full. Now, I think

there's a better NFL, a better NBA comparison. Okay. Then the Clippers. I'll tell you why. The Dallas Mavericks. The Saints are actually the Dallas Mavericks of the NFL. Tell you why.

Number one, Dallas Mavericks, two really high profile losses in the playoffs. Once to the Golden State, we believe, team, right, when they got knocked out of the first round, very embarrassed and loss. Another time made it all the way to the finals, lost to Duane Wade and the NBA refs in that series, right?

But then they were able to change their culture by having a bona fide face of their franchise, MVP caliber player who actually became the MVP, who was able to be good enough to get them over the hump to win a championship. And since then, Dallas has good teams, Dallas has bad teams, but they're always right there. It's a difference comparing the Saints to them.

We're not one of the blue bloods of the NFL. We're not. But when you say the Clippers, you're talking about his historic dysfunction. We're talking about dysfunction on a honey-boo-boo-boo-boo-family-type level. That's not right. I can't go for that one, dog.

By the way, I said that to my dad. And my dad was like, no, boy, you know my nerve's bad. Why would you send me this today? You hurt my father, bro. You hurt my dad. I apologize for your father's feelings. But look, and I should have clarified,

it's been within the past 10 years. Because look, you know, and I'll see about that before I jumped on. Maybe you compare Sean Payton to a Doc Rivers. Maybe. Because that's a better comparison, probably. Because the dude has won one championship. And then he's brought stability where he's gone.

Saints have been stable, you know, really for the past 20 plus years. But they were able to win championship underneath Sean Payton. And really since then, there's that potential based on what we've seen during the race, season. There's been years where there have been better teams within their own division or conference, you know, even with the Panthers and the Falcons who reached Super Bowl's and past seasons. But at the same time, there has been that own kind of self-sabotaging, you know,

I wouldn't say dysfunction. There's just been self-sabotaging moments that get exasperated by, you know, being able to pin it on referees. Like, look. Well, I mean, you could say that we pin it up, look, you can say that we're pinning the refra, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Super Bowl. I don't know what to say about that. Literally, if I was coaching a pee we team, a peewee team, the South Baton Rouge, all right, where I'm from back home in Baton Rouge, if I was coaching them and that call happened against us, me and the ref got a box.

You understand? We got a stand at the 50-yard line. If you're going to do that to my son, we got a box, bro. We got a box. Okay, but look. That is a egregious, horrible, one of the worst calls in NFL history. Sure. Sure.

I agree. I agree. But if I, look it, I'm kind of, I'm not trying to be contrarian, but look, if my son is on your team and you didn't get my son the ball, he's scored, you know, he's a good receiver. Yeah, I've been throwing the ball to him enough in the first two quarters. And all of a sudden, you did in the third and fourth quarter, why weren't you doing that in the first and second quarter so you didn't have to be in that position in the first place? Okay.

That's really what it comes down to. If you want to make arguments that that we should have never been in a position where the game was that tough, that's fine. But it's the NFC championship game, right? It's the NFC Championship game, which means they're two pretty good football teams playing. Oftentimes, those games come down to a couple of possessions, a couple of scores.

So I'm not shocked that the Saints were in a position. And that's really if you're, even when you take the Super Bowl that we won, right? You take the Super Bowl that we run, one, look at the way the NFC championship game played itself out in the dome even in that year. The difference between that is that we had a guy, who under pressure is normally pretty good, and the other team had whippity, whipity, Mr. Rangler, and it was just a matter of time to, oh, wippity, whipity, threw us one.

And he did, and we won. All you can ask for, if you have home field advantage, is to be driving for the go-ahead score on your field, in your town to go to the Super Bowl. And we had that, and a diseased zebra snatch victory out of our hands and you're giving them a pass you know who the clippers are?

Shout out to Atlanta the clippers are the Falcons that's who the clippers are the Falcons I'm not saying this is they've never done anything the Falcons haven't done anything they should move them to Montreal they've never done anything

like anything and they had a chance and they clipper their way out of the deal but what you did to us wasn't right and I'm hurt because I'm not even mad I'm hurt because I really respect you guys in the show.

And then I had to come in this room. I had to water my plant. I'm going to water them right now. He's literally watering the plants just so you all know. Wow. This is, I feel like we've all grown in the past 10 minutes. Nora, what did you think? I'm shedding tears right now.

She had to step away from the microphone for a little bit. I really did have to pull myself back there a little bit. Van, I think that was a very compelling argument. I do have a question for you. Sure. Which is, are you aware that the Saints are nearly $100 million over the salary cap next year? This is neither here nor there for this argument. I just, I like to keep it in the mix.

No, yes, of course I'm aware of that, but what, thank you. It has nothing to do with the clippers. I just like to bring it up. And here, I'm glad that I can be on the Ringer anti-Saint show today. But, yeah, I'm aware that we have some money problems. I'm also aware that, you know, our Hall of Famer has broken ribs. and, you know, collapse lung. Yeah, you know, collapse lung.

And pretty soon, White Lamar Jackson is going to be the starter for our team. So there's a lot of things that are going to have to happen. I'm not saying we're in the best place. What I'm saying is, please don't, come on, don't clip us, dog. You know what I mean? Don't clipper us.

Do you know how many people? I put that on message boards. You took me back to 2007. I put that on message boards. I really outsource this answer. This wasn't just all me. You think this was all me? We came up with this as a family.

You brought it. You had helped. Kalan, you didn't have any help on your take. No, I did it. And I had Saints fans who were close friends. You don't get at me.

They're like, oh, man. Like, I had a few of them. I had a few of them. They're like, a few of them were like, they're like, man, I hate that you're right.

And I was like, I'm not trying. Oh, wow. Some of them were like, I hate that you're right. And then some of them said exactly what you said, the Mavericks. And I was like,

wait a second. The Mavericks are never, you know, in the top five. We're never talking about how prolific the Mavericks are. They don't really have a face of the France. Now they do. And Luca Doncha and even Dirk. That's why I disagree. I think they had Dirk for a lot of years. And I think we do talk about them as a traditionally offensive team that normally has fatal flaws that bite them when the playoffs come around.

And I think that's something that you can say about the Saints. Since Sean Payton has been there, we've been a dynamic offensive team, right? But we've always, you know, in situations, we've never been in, and even in when we won the Super Bowl, it's not like the defense was solid. They were opportunistic. They were a high turnover defense and really, really good at hitting the quarterback four to five seconds after the whistle had blown.

So like for so. They'd actually be very good now. They would. They would with the way to constitute. So I'm just saying, I think they're more, but when you say the Clippers, you're talking about historically bad, but basketball dog. You know what I mean?

So I think that's kind of what jumped out of people. But I appreciate the take. And I like, I love the take. I love the take though. We love a take that causes problems in your personal life. I appreciate the take. It's the perfect way to get us out here. Yeah, peace. I just like when people

get to it. My man got to it. He was like, fuck y'all. Like, you know me? Like, that's basically what he said to us. Hey, I don't even make the saints. That's the thing. I don't even made the same. Oh, it don't matter now. Van Lathen, Kaelan Jones, Dorf, and Ciadi, it has been amazing. Thanks guys.

Peace, yeah. Bringing in from the Ringer Fantasy Football Show from the Ringer.com, from what else, Danny Hyfitz? Ringer content. Yeah. From New York, the state of New York. New York, Richmond, L.A., coastal elite. And Kaelan Jones is back for a second segment.

Kailan, how'd you enjoy the first segment? I still feel bad for Vans Dad. I apologize to him for hurting his feelings. Vans Dad is the only one who gets an apology from your scorching take. That's the only one. You stand by the take otherwise. I do, yeah.

All right. So we're going to do guessing the playoffs here. And very easy, very straightforward. If you don't know, we'll just do it right now. Here's the playoff spot, playoff picture, one through seven. Remember, they have seven spots this year. They might have eight if the game is canceled that affects the playoff spot. Packers won, Saints, two, Cardinals three, Eagles four.

And I say that with a laugh. Maybe a bigger laugh. Bucks are at five. Rams are at six. Seahawks are at seven. Bears, Vikings, Lions are the teams. on the bubble and we use bubble in huge quotation points. In the AFC, that's where it gets interesting.

Steelers are one, chiefs are two, then Bill's Colts, then Raiders, Dolphins, and here's where it gets intriguing. The teams on the outside looking in, the Tennessee Titans, the Cleveland Browns, the New England Patriots at four and five. Danny, we'll start with you. Give us your wild card teams. What does it look like? Well, my first thought, as you were talking, was that the term playoff bubble is over

because that means something completely different now. Oh, that's a good point. But take it up with NFL.com. Wait, you want AFC or NFC first or both? Let's do NFC just to get out of the way. We know the playoff teams. Let's just do some seatings and some housekeeping. Unless you have a bear's take.

No, I thought about it because of Nick Foles. I decided I'm not going down on the chip. No, I got Seahawks, Bucks Cardinals to the NFC, wild cards. Seahawks, Buck's Cardinals. Okay. So the extension of that is that the Rams are going to win the division. Yeah. So I got, yeah, so the Rams winning the West, the Saints keep holding on to the South,

Packers holding on the north. I think the Giants actually took over the east, which isn't your question, but I think the Eagles then fall out. Oh, no, that is my question. I mean, that, that is relevant to the NFC. So the Eagles get overtaken by the Giants. How does this happen? And why?

So Joe Judge, just with his fist, just brawls across. Yeah. No, I know that didn't actually happen, but no, I think the Giants are just the best team. And I'm absurdly biased because I love watching the Giants and I root for the Giants. But I think anyone, who's watched them over the last month knows they're the best team in the division. They, the box game looks less and less like a fluke the further they get from it.

Everyone is doing the phrase everyone's doing a lot of work. 100% of people. Many people are saying, many people are saying, many people are the best team of the division. Okay. No, what they are. I mean, like, ironically, they fired Mark Columbo today, but the offensive line has been playing a lot better.

They're somehow running the ball of Wayne Galman. Daniel Jones had, I think his first game without a turnover his career. And, I mean, if he just does that, like, I actually think they're going to keep way. Like the bar is pretty low. They could host the Buccaneers and Wildcard weekend at 6 and 10. I'm well aware of that.

Kaelin, NFC. NFC, I've got the Bucks, the Rams, and the Cardinals. Okay, so that's Seahawks winning the division. And do you have the Eagles winning the NFC East? No, I have the Giants as well. I have the Giants winning. Hell yeah.

See, objective. You don't think the Giants can do it? I think they can do it. I think they can do it. I just don't think they will. I think that at some point the Eagles are going to, that punt to tie is very important. And I think that there's,

just think at some point the Eagles are going to accidentally win two games. Wow. Does it say anything that Eagles fans are not confident in Giants fans are? Does that mean anything to you or no? No. They had the best quarterback in the division. They had the best quarterback in the division and then the best coach in the division. The best quarterback.

That has to matter at some point. That has to matter. But they have the toughest schedule. They've got to face the Saints, the Packers, the Seahawks, and the Cardinals. You know, it's a tough road for them. I'm aware. I'm just saying I don't, I think, listen, everybody in this division stinks.

Every single team. Yeah, they smell like they want to be left alone. I think even projecting them is, like, there's a reason these teams are all awful. Yeah. Yeah. And so the Eagles have the fifth of the schedule, but the Giants have the seventh toughest schedule going forward.

So it's not like they're, the problem, you're using that. Joe Judge is about grit. No, let me tell you something. The problem with the NFC, East is that they don't play the NFC East. So they can't get they can't, it can't play themselves.

So they don't, they can't just rack up wins out of division. They can't, you know, the Giants can't play the Giants to get an easy win. Yeah, that's what the UFC West is done. They just play Washington for the easy wins.

Yeah, NFC West is like, everyone's like the NFC West is amazing. Well, they just play the NFC East. They have what you, is the NFC West overrated? Uh, it's,

I think the records are inflated. Absolutely. Sure. No. Like Seattle still has, Washington football team, the Giants, and the Eagles to go. So Seattle's going to win those three games,

and they have the Jets. All right. I am generally going chalk here. I agree with Danny that the Rams win the division. I have the Eagles win the division and then the NFC West teams. This is not, there will be no bearer stakes.

There will be no Vikings' stakes. So the Simmons and I talked about this, about how the Vikings at least have an outside shot, I just don't think the win total is is going to get there. There's not going to be an eight and eight wildcard team. So that's a foreshare for them. All right, AFC, here's where it gets interesting.

Kalin Jones, take us there. I've got the dolphins, the Raiders, chock right now. Dolphins, raiders, Ravens.

Okay. So do you have any faith in the Titans or Browns or the Patriots? I don't have faith in the Browns. Okay. I do have a little bit of like slight faith in the Patriots just because of Bill Belichick and Cam Newton. and the way that they, you know, kind of just find ways to win, talent and coaching there.

But as far as, you know, the Titans, I'm still conflicted here because I think that they can sneak in. I don't trust the fact that they are not able to, you know, really put any faith once they fall behind. They are not the same team. They're not able to, you know, rely on their quarterback to make plays the way that other teams can't. Ryan Tannenhill, when he has a lead,

when they're able to use play action and run the football, a great team, one of the best in the league, but they need their defense to play at a high level consistently. I don't think they're going to get that. Yeah, the defense sucks. I mean, Kevin, you keep talking that this is like the, this is the Occam's Razor season. This is like the keep it simple season.

Defense wins championships. The Titans defense sucks. Also, their special teams are awful. If the charges have the worst special teams in the league, the Titans are right there at the bottom with them. And I think it's ironic that you've got the two Belichick disciples of Mike Vrable and Flores. The dolphins have the best special teams by football outsiders.

The Titans are like at the bottom. and I think that that kind of show, like the detail-orientedness of the dolphins is kind of why I have faith in them and not so much in the Titans. Because beyond their offense, it's just sloppy. Yep, that's exactly what I want.

I don't think defense wins championships. I think defense can lose your championships, though. I, what? But I've heard it so many times. Why would it not be true? All right. Let's get Danny Hyfitz's teams before we get into specific debates on this.

Go ahead, Danny. This is so boring. I've got Ravens, Raiders, I almost want to change something now. Okay. So I want to get back. So let's debate the Browns here for a second. Yeah. I actually do like the Browns as as an idea.

Because they play defense. Yeah. And they have the jets, the Jaguars, the Giants, the Eagles, as they're easy opponents. Now, Vegas also has a very easy schedule. But I just think they're going to be able to get to 10 wins at some point. And by the way, Vegas has, tiebreaker. So it's a tough road to hoe as far as just a

take that the Browns are going to make the playoffs. But I do think that they're probably going to be a 10-win team. Anything with the divisions right now, guys, where you think that this could shake up? Or do you guys have the current winners, the Steelers, Chiefs, Bills, and Colts as the division champions? I have chalked there, but I

really thought about putting the dolphins in the AFCE slot because basically the bills are on by this week. And if the dolphins win this week, it's really close. Yeah, I mean, I think Flores is a better coach than Fangio. And I think that if the dolphins win this week, that division's really close, they play in week 17. I thought about it, but realistically, it's just,

it's more likely than not that else hold on. Danny, let me stop you right there. Did you just have to go with Flores is a better coach than Fangio? That was your X factor in Dolphins versus Broncos. In all seriousness, yes. In all seriousness, yes. I mean, it's like Flores versus Drew Locke. Like, no, in all seriousness, I think coaching is the most underrated part of the season.

I mean, you talk about this all the time. Yeah, but the dolphins have the edge in like every single. single department. And then, and then you're like, well, in coaching, it's just funny. It's just funny. I like it. I like the take. All right. Yeah. I just, it's not a take. No, but I think that the interesting part is that the, I actually don't think the AFC South is that close as a division, even though the Colts and Titans have the same record. I tend to agree. Which is weird to say, but I think the dolphins have a better chance than the Titans, even though they're- Kail-Jones, Bill's Dolphins, settle it. I'm going to take the bills. I know, again, like, like Danny mentioned, you know, I think Flores is definitely a better coach than

Sean McDermott, but I think that, you know, the bills are going to be a league. You think that, okay, you think that Florida's better coached in McDermott. That's interesting. I do. Yeah, no, personally, I do. Okay. I think that, no, look at... I think it's a bit of a toss. It's not like, it's not like clear and above.

I think it's very, very, very, very close. But I think Flores is a better coach when you look at the construction of the roster and what he's been able to do with this team, maximizing the place that he has. But like that being said, I think that the dolphins still, still, you know, they're not the most complete team, you know.

The bills do have, relatively speaking, they do have a complete team. They just haven't been able to play at a consistent level. And a lot of that has to do with Josh Allen. I would say the similarities between McDermott and Flores, they're both great culture guys. They'll both make you believe in intangibles if you don't going into an interview with them. They both like veteran presences, but know how to work in and develop youth. So I think there's a lot there. I think it's too early for me.

this is the first, I mean, listen, Brian Flores has only had a team to win with for like five weeks. Like, it's hard, it's hard for me to make the comparison. No, they went five and were tanking last year. No, no, no, that's my point. They tanked, they sold everything that was not nailed down. The first half of the season, they were worse than expansion franchise. And they finished five and four. They're better, they finish with a better record than the Patriots from November 1st last year's team. And if, in my mind, coaching, the definition of a coach is your job is to do more with less. Your job is to make the whole greater than the some of the parts. You could argue that no coach in the 21st century has been handed worse parts

than Brian Flores. He had for a half season got that team to be five and four. And in my mind, I actually connect that five and four to the first half of this season, even though you're not supposed to do that with the coach of the year. I think he's coach at the year. I think he and Mike Tomlin can duke that out. I'll make that decision with who I'm backing next month. But I think you're overlooking the mess that Sean McDermen and Brandon Bean had to. they're doing great. Like they're both so good. I mean, they're in the top day. I'm just saying like three years ago, they had to

just, they basically had to do an on-the-fly tear down because of the cat problems there with and the culture problems and all that stuff. So I think that they, I think that I understand why you would want to say Flores is better than McDermott. I'm just saying it's a lot closer than Let's keep perspective here. We don't have to

pit them against each other. They're both ahead of the Patriots. They can both be happy. No, we do. We do have to pit them against other because they're in the same division and going for the same That's how the Patriots win. No, the Patriots are not going to make it. Through the Patriots. Let the Bills and Dolphins both be happy.

All right. All right. Let's go to some questions here. All right, number one. We'll start with you, Danny Hyphitz. Because since you're energized right now. Who is the wildcard team your most confident will win a playoff game? Oh, I mean, it's the bucks. Unless they have to play the Giants, in which case, that'll be

hilarious because they'll lose. But it's Tom Brady and Todd Bowles. I mean, it's defense. I mean, all my cliches, but defense wins championships. I mean, it's Tom Brady. It's like, I can't, I mean, this isn't a take. It's like the safest thing I can think of for a playoff game. So can I ask you a question? Do you think, though, that there's a chance that the Bucks are not allowed to our team because the fact that Drew Brees is out for a determined amount of weeks. So 538, obviously the tiebreaker goes to the Saints, but 538 has them as a 26% chance

of winning the division. I understand everything. But I, you know, you're trusting James Winston to get you some wins here. And I think we've seen it with Teddy Bridgewater, how they've been able to operate with the backup quarterback. But that just worries me a little bit when you've got the best quarterback of all time. Oh, yeah.

I mean, look, of course it's worrying. I don't know. I mean, they went five, as you said, they would five and oh with Teddy Bridgewater. Now, Winston is, I think, the polar opposite of James, of Teddy Bridgewater as a player.

Like, they have nothing in common. James has nothing in common with Breeze. It's like he has a cannon arm, kind of reckless with the ball. Like, I don't know if he's going to be able to replicate that because Teddy was very content to let the defense win those five games. But if he can, I mean, I think this, I pick the Saints to win the Super Bowl and I stick with it.

So I think they're going to hold on to the division and the bucks will get the wild card. Kaelin Jones, give me your wild card winner. I picked the ramps, but, you know, both of you guys have them as, you know, winning the division. Yeah, yeah. So it doesn't, it's not too surprising when you consider, you know, again, Sean McVey and Brandon Staley, the coaching job that those two have done this year, you know, and maximizing, especially Staley with the defense, Aaron Donald and Jay Lambsy have been playing absurd football. And now you have players around them also playing really, really well. I think come playoff time, that's going to really show. I have to be honest, Kevin, you changed my mind

about the Rams defense because I thought firing Wade Phillips in 60 years of football experience during a pandemic would be a mistake. It was not. I thought it was a mistake too. Until this year, I thought it was a mistake. Listen, I don't want to be credited with some sort of take where I was like, oh, great, great hire Brandon Staley in March. It was just that I saw them play really well and really innovatively in September October, September and October, and then went on Russo and said, this is,

this is it, chief. And so I don't think that there's, I'm just looking at the evidence here. So yeah, I love that, that Rams team. All right,

who's the division winner that's going to lose? Kellen Jones. Ken, and by the way, we cannot say the NFC East teams, just so the listener knows why we're not doing that.

Otherwise, we would all just pick that. Kailon Jones. I'm picking the Colts. I don't really know if they have a convincing, a truly convincing win this year. outside of, you know, they, they lost week one to Jacksonville.

You could exclude that. They had a 29 point win against the Jets. But they also had an 8.1 against Chicago, 9.1 against Cleveland, 4 point went against Cincinnati. They have a fourth ranked defense in DVOA, but they have the 18th in offense. And I know Philip Rivers is, you know, a veteran knows what he's doing. But, you know, he has a career of, you know, kind of screwing up in crucial moments. And their offense doesn't really have so many weapons.

I love that you're like all these numbers. And then like, and Philip Rivers. screws up when it matters. Yeah, I mean, he screws out. You're right. Sucinct way of putting it. You're not wrong. Danny Kelly, same court.

Danny Kelly. Danny Kelly's awesome. Honestly, I'm honored that you have called me Danny Kelly. I would love to make the future Danny Kelly. At the first, at the first Super Bowl we went to, we were on Radio Row. And I was walking down, I don't know what I forget I was talking to. I was just walking down the hallway and somebody comes up to me and goes, oh my God, Danny Kelly.

And I was like, oh, yes, I am Danny Kelly. How are you? You know all these GMs kept coming up to me at the Combine and were like, hey, nice to meet you, Kevin. Are you serious? No, I was a joke. That didn't happen.

Oh. No, it was a total joke. No, it was, this was like a random person. Oh, a random person. Yeah, it was not a GM or anything. It was just a random person. It was like, that's Danny Kelly. I don't know where the wires got crossed or whatever,

but it was a huge compliment to me. And now I just called you Danny Kelly. So, congrats. The circle of life. My division winner, the Steelers are obviously the most likely team to lose. and Kalin, my only qualm with the Colts fans is Colts is all the Steelers fans

listening to this also agree the Steelers are the most likely team to lose in the first round because I don't think they're going to hold on to the buy. I'm pretty, I mean, I think we all probably agree that Chiefs are going to end up with the buy. The Steelers are so wobbly. Like, Rothesberger's literally wobbly. Rothesberger looked older than

any person I've seen on a field last week with the two knee injuries. He just looks slower than ever. The line can't run block anymore. Like, they just keep winning by the skin of their teeth, but not in a way that's like, oh, what a great team. But in a way that's like, holy crap, this team is just honestly, my issue with Tomlin as head as coach of the year is that the Steelers kind of look like

less than the sum of their parts. And that's just an issue. Like they keep just finding ways to, they're eventually going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I feel like they're doing that over and over. And also it matters that their defensive lines stays healthy. They need Cam Hayward on 100%. They need to font to it at 100%.

So I just feel like they have this history of playing down to their opponents. I mean, from the Broncos game, with Tebow. And Steelers have lost so many important games. They almost lost a freaking Cowboys game that I wouldn't be shocked. And while we're having this conversation, I bet the NFC East team wins their first playoff game, because that's always how this goes. Like, I really think that whoever wins the NFC East will win a playoff game

just because that's just how this year has gone. I feel like it could be against the bucks, too. If it's just blackout does roll off 10 great takes. That was amazing. All right. So let's unpack all of this. So number one, Kaelin Jones,

do you believe in the Steelers? I do because of their defense. Because Rothsberger's proven. And I mean, honestly, and that's the thing. I agree that Danny's right and that they've looked wobbly. And Rothesberger,

for his part, you know, he's been a completely different player in what he's actually not completely different player. He's been a different player in that he's had to get rid the ball so much faster than what he's

accustomed to him throughout his career. But he has the weapons around him. You know, I know the running game has not been there. but Ronsberger has been, you know, solid enough to get it out to those guys. And I trust in the offense that they have. So a couple things. Number one is the looming problem here is that the Ravens might, as of right now,

are the seventh seed. And that would be a really bad break for the two seed. And that's where getting the vibe becomes even more important. You do not want to be game planning for Lamar Jackson on Wildcard weekend. That sounds like an absolute nightmare. So if you get nothing against the Raiders or even the dolphins or the Browns or any of these teams, I think are really interesting. I don't want to be game planning for Lamar Jackson on Wild Guard weekend.

All right. Last thing for you guys, before we get out of here, anybody off the board to make a run, whether that's the Vikings, Patriots, or whomever, is there anyone, if you had to bet, if you had to take a bet, if someone gave you $10 to lay it down on someone we have not picked to win anything, what are you going with, Kailon Jones? I'm picking the Vikings, and it's because of their schedule, you look at the cowboys, the jaguars, bears, lions, and then you just have to flip one of the Panthers or Saints not to make a voting reference here,

but there's a pathway to going 9 and 7. So, conceiving. The question is $10 to put on someone. I once read in one of your columns that if you would just bet on the Patriots before the season every year, that you would be like a millionaire,

like it's better ROI than like every stock. No? That sounds great, yeah, sounds great, but I didn't write it. I didn't know. I'm out of sure I wrote it. No, no, no, no. It sounds like something I would have written.

I just don't remember writing. But the point is, I'm betting on the best coach ever. But the real answer here is, as I was looking at this question is, 14 is the perfect number for the playoffs. Because I looked at it was like, no, none of the bad teams are going to make it. None of the teams that really does, like, the teams that are left that can make a run really deserve it.

Like basically the Patriots have to go six and one to finish. Maybe five and two, really six and one. And the Vikings have to do the same thing. And at that point, you deserve it. But I kind of just looking at this was kind of excited. Like, I like 14 as a playoff number. Okay. So I also have the Vikings.

And it is a schedule thing because I look at, first of all, like they're just a pretty good team. They're like a decent team. They're not, they're going to win a playoff game, but I think they can rattle off some wins. Their schedule, as Kaelin alluded to, Jacksonville, Dallas, Carolina is a toss-up, and then Detroit,

and then they have the Saints, the Bears, and the Bucks. They've got to pull an upset over the Bucks or the Saints in order to get in this conversation, but they can certainly beat the Bears. So I would not be surprised if they make a run. I don't, I think this is kind of a best. bad year to be a bubble team just because of how crowded with that whole thing is. And the fact that we just talked about it, the Ravens might be the seven seat.

Like that, that's, that's the depth of the AFC. And so with, you know, with New England, they've got a pretty easy schedule 26th by, by future opponents winning percentage. I got the Texans, the chargers, and the jets that the charges are not an easy out. And they've got really good quarterback play. And in theory could beat everybody if they didn't just blow everything at the end of games. But then they also have, you know, the bills, Rams, cardinals, and dolphins. So it's going to be tough for.

of those teams. If anybody made it, I wouldn't be surprised if the Vikings did it. Listen, I really, I'm pro-patriots. I'm famously pro-patriots. I wouldn't be stunned if, if Cam Newton made a run like this, but this is, uh, it's a tough year for that. All right, Danny Hyatt, any other takes? Uh, no, I'm good. I like 14 teams for the playoffs. Everyone complained about adding two spots. It's perfect. It's less than half. And, but it's, it's enough. It's the right amount. You'll get used to it. I, who says I'm not used to it? Because it's never, happened before. How could you be used to it? I'm just, it could be 16.

Oh, yeah. Well, it could be, yeah, we'll have to get used to that, too, either way. All right. Danny Hyfitz, Kaelin Jones, too, let him of people. Thanks for coming on. It's been the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast now.