The Ringer NFL Show - What’s The Plan? Plus: Trying To Understand the Saints Salary Cap Situation

Episode Date: March 16, 2021

Yahoo Sports’ Charles Robinson joins Kevin and Nora to discuss some of the major themes so far in free agency (2:16). Then Kevin and Nora talk about the first day of the legal tampering period and discuss what several teams' plans are moving forward (23:52). Lastly, Nick Underhill from New Orleans.Football joins the show to explain how the Saints have managed their salary cap situation over the years (1:05:55). Hosts: Kevin Clark and Nora Princiotti Guests: Charles Robinson and Nick Underhill Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From in-depth analysis of basketball and football to life advice, Ryan Rusillo has got you covered on the Ryan Rusillo podcast. Join him as he talks to some of the best names in sports while providing sharp analysis and wit you won't find elsewhere. Check out the Ryan Rusillo podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark, drawn by Noel Prenciotti. Nora, 24 hours of free agency.

What did you think? It's been a wild ride, Kevin. It actually hasn't been that wild. But still, enjoying it like the news. It's been a wild ride in New England. Okay, so a lot to get to. We're going to start with Charles Robinson from Yahoo. Great info on free agency on what some of these teams are going through the future of the next two weeks.

Whether or not some quarterback movement. Nora and I then break down some of the most interesting teams of free agency over the past 24 hours. And then Nick Underhill covers the Saints for New Orleans. Football joins us to finally explain. He and Mickey Loomis are the only people who understand the Saints gap and what it means. Really fun discussion. Really enjoyed that one. So let's get to Charles.

All right. joined now by Charles Robinson from Yahoo. Charles, interesting first 24 hours of free agency. When you talk to teams and agents or whomever, obviously a lot of skill guys didn't get the money that they thought they were going to get. A couple of interesting moves. When you talk to people around the league, what was sort of the dominant theme of the first 24 hours? Well, I think everybody thought there was going to be this wide receiver bonanza because some of the top end guys were wide receivers when this all started. Obviously, Chris Godwin comes off the board when he gets franchised. And I had a team that said to me, you just took, if you're going out there and you're going to spend money on a wide receiver,

you want the miss, you know, any position in free agency, you're looking for mismatch guys. Well, this was like the one mismatch guy. He's got the speed. You know, he's the, he's, and so it was interesting now that we've been through 24 hours because he said to me, teams are going to have to start to look for mismatches in other places. Well, enter the New England patrons. They're in the chat. There's. signing two tight ends and, you know, they blow it out on Jono Smith. They blow it out in Hunter Henry. And I was texting with someone when the Hunter Henry deal came down in the pipeline. And he said, this is the right move. Like it was this is a competing GM. And he said, I get what

Bill's trying to do here. He looked at the need for wide receivers on his team. And he said, I'm just going to take the two guys that give me the ability to throw a really good tight end on a nickel corner or a linebacker who can't handle them, put them both on the field at the same time. NBC's Josh Norris mentioned, hey, they barely ran 12 personnel last year. All of a sudden, you see the Patriots, you know, spending some of their money on mismatch, tight ends, warm bodies at wide receivers. They go and they trade for Trent Brown. Everything that the Patriots are doing is compacting that offense and changing it, I think,

for probably a bridge Cam Newton and a rookie quarterback. But I think that is sort of the theme that was interesting to me was, you know, this search for mismatches and how, you know, New England seems to have, you know, played the right card in terms of where they spent offensively. But I will say this. I want to, I want to mention, people have to remember when you're blowing out guaranteed money in free agency, I think they just put out like $150 million. It means your drafts were horrible. Yep. So this is Bill Belichick, basically. This is the flowers and bouquet saying, hey, or this is the bouquet of flowers and the chocolate saying, hey, I screwed up for a number of years here. So we're going to go ahead and spend a lot of money. How do people around the league view this, this Belichick spending sparing? I mean, it's, it is, he spent before, but it's not this concentrated. Right.

When people are reacting to this, especially rival GMs or whomever, what is the dominant theme, I guess? I think everybody knew it was coming. Yeah. Because I had, so like Matthew Judon was a guy that I talked to a couple of teams that were in it for past rushers. And they're like, the Patriots are going to go after this guy. And we're going to have to deal with them probably, you know, blowing out what his number maybe would have been or what we thought it would have been. I think they see it as a couple of different things. Number one, the Patriots roster was old.

I think they looked at the Patriots roster and they said, yes, there was this young core that brought in and contributed last year. But for the most part, there's a lot of age here that needs to be replaced. And then I think fundamentally it was they know that Bill realized things had to change after last season with Tom, out of fault. They brought Camman, they gave it the shot, and the offense didn't really function the way that they had hoped, you know, and they're going to have to lean into a quarterback, a different kind of a quarterback than what they had in Tom, and they're not going to go out and this pipe dream of Deshawn Watson or Russell Wilson or whatever. They're going to have to go get, they're going to have to get a guy and groom him again. Like it sucks, you know, to be in that

situation, but welcome to what happens when you live. Welcome to 25 other teams. Yeah. Welcome to reality. When you look Charles at the second and third wave of free agency, because I think it's fascinating, you know, I've talked to a bunch of people on this podcast before about what's going to happen when there's just not a lot of money to go around and you have guys who should be making three years 30 in the second wave of free agency who are going to make nothing. Are there going to be, and I know this sounds ridiculous, but almost

like depth super teams where guys say, hey, I just want to go play for the bucks. I just want to go play for the Packers. I just want to go play for the bill, something like that. What are, who are those teams that are maybe waiting out for that? And who might be the players who might be connected to those teams? Well, that's, I think you hit it on the head is I think you're going to have a number of players

that when some of this money runs out at the top and it all burns off, you're going to have a number of middle tier guys that usually would be, as you said, second wave, the strong second wave. They're going to sit there and go, man, I've got a two-year deal or three-year on the table that's, you know, it's okay. The money would have been, you know, the agent can sit there and tell you what the money would have been if the cap situation hadn't been what it is. And they're going to sit there and the agent's going to go, here's what you want to do. Get to the cap increase, get to the gambling money, get to the TV. So sign a short-term deal, one year, maybe two years. Or, you know, even if you signed a two-year deal and it's below market,

can go back to the table after year one if you if you have a great season um so i do i think you're going to see a lot of middle tier three agents maybe veteran guys that are going to look at the landscape and they're going to go hey you know what um maybe i'll talk to bruce arians and jason light and they can rework a couple of deals and get me in on a you know submarket one year deal sort of what they did like remember they shine shack barrett for a one year deal for it was like four million out of denver look at how you know put a little shine on a guy have them you know, play well in the right scenario. And that's what makes the Buccaneers attracted.

Maybe, maybe the Patriots are one of those teams. Maybe, you know, the Packers are one of those teams. I would tend to say the 49ers. Yes. Are a team that a lot of people are looking at right now. When you talk around the league about, hey, shape up how next season is looking for me, a lot of teams are like, hey, if the 49ers are healthy, last year, forget what happened last year.

You're like this is, that may be the NFC favorite, even over the Tampa Bay Buccaneers that the 49ers are 100% healthy and make a couple additions and can keep, say, Trent Williams. But yeah, with you, I think that's exactly what's going to happen. With some of those veterans, the veteran middle class that might get squeezed, have you heard anything about guys considering if they don't end up going to one of those depth super teams or potential depth super teams, guys feeling like they, they, might kind of opt out for a year or just not feel like if it's close to the veteran minimum, it's worth the physical toll. If it's a guy who's had a decent career, made a bunch of money.

I think it, you know, it depends on the age of the player. It depends on, as you said, the finances. I mean, if it's the veteran minimum, you know, and it's a younger guy, you know, you're going to see some people that are going to opt out, would opt out in those situations. But I will also say this, I don't hear much about opting out next year. I just don't, I don't know that, um, I think players sit there and go, I can go and get a foothold, you know, in a team with their scheme. If I pick the right situation, um, it's just, it's more about opting into a one year contract. That's what these guys really have to be convinced to do and opting into the right situation. So you had the report a couple weeks ago, a couple of days ago that the cap in five

year something like that might be up to 250 something like that so it's about 180 now and people are really worried about the cap next year too um just because of we don't think there's going to be a spike and so a lot of people who are saying oh they might take one year deals and try again next year a lot people are saying well actually that might be two year deals because yeah because the cap the cap isn't really going to spike for for two more years uh knowing what you know about the cap and the spending and how much as you said gambling money and tv money is going to be uh infused in there the next couple of years. What do the next few years of spending look like and how are teams adjusting to this? I mean, if you're, if you've got a young quarterback, if you've got Josh Allen, I assume you

want to sign him as soon as possible before that cap starts spiking. But I also know that Josh Allen's representatives know that there's gambling and TV money as well. What happens the next couple of years of spending going forward with the gambling and the TV money, Charles? Well, no, no agent now, I think with quarterbacks is interested in doing more than a four-year deal. And I think even some of these tack-on deals that we saw with like Carson Wentz and Jared Gough, those were tack-on deals to the rookie deals. Well, now I'm hearing agents say, I don't know if we want to do a tack-on deal anymore. Like, we're going to do a tack-on deal. Maybe we just do like a two-year tack-on deal. Basically, agents are talking about quarterbacks and never giving up more than four years of control.

No matter where the quarterback is when he extends this deal, you always want to do it inside those four-year windows. And part of that has to do with not knowing what the revenue models look like with the gambling, ancillary gambling revenue, not knowing necessarily what the TV deals look like. But so as you said next year, I talked to a team that has a very complicated revenue model built down for this. And that clearly has been talking to a lot of people in the league office and the union. And so I was told was next year likely flat, as you said, going to be essentially where this year's cap should have been. So back in like the 195 range.

And then the big jump will be two years from now. So the big jump will be after next year. And then what I was told when I said, hey, 250, five years down the road, he said, ah, you might be a little short thing. And I said, I'm going to start working out now. I'm going to go out.

I'm going to start working out and bulking up and just doing tons of steroids so I can meet an NFL player in five years. Yeah. I mean, he said, look, we didn't do the huge cap drawback this year, but the revenue didn't, you know, the hit is not as bad as what was expected. And he said that he thought maybe 260 in five years

was more sort of what they were looking at in their model. Now, it's dicey getting into this because every franchise can kind of build out their own models and everybody's kind of acting on their own information and talking to the union. And so I've heard different projections from different teams. But I'm just telling you, I think that 250 to 260 range five years from now is considered pretty realistic. I think people think the TV deals are going to double.

I think that's the thought process that it's going to be a gargantuan TV deal. And there's a lot of talk about Amazon, like, you know, what's the deal going to look like inside the TV deal with Amazon? And are we going to be able to somehow bring Amazon to the table again pretty quickly? like do they get the Thursday night package for a couple years, and then all of a sudden, hey, we can open it up to more possibilities for them. I've even heard somebody say, hey, you know, NFL ticket. Maybe Amazon is their prime subscription service now, is you get every NFL game if you're a prime subscriber.

That's a ton of money in the system. And quietly, when Roger Goodell in 2010 said, hey, let's hit $27 billion in revenue by 20 or $25 billion in revenue by 2027. He didn't know a $1.5 trillion company was going to exist in, in 2021 and actually exceed all its revenue projections during a pandemic. Amazon is like the greatest gift on earth to the NFL. And when people say, well, Jeff Bezos should have a team.

The NFL is like, we do not want that guy with a team. We want him owning Amazon. That's way better. We want him to have the whole league. I will say, I talk to the saints. they're all operating the cap in five years is going to be $900 million. They're just going to spend like it. That sounds about right.

Yeah, well, that's actually, I mean, Kevin's tugging cheek, but that's a good point. Do you think that this assumption that that's how much the cap is going to go up? Does that accelerate the, you know, we've got void ears raining down like cats and dogs and all of the cat maneuvering that goes on? The Saints are actually going to sign Taysam Hill to that deal. Just as, oh, we got the Amazon money. It's fine. Here's $140 million. Those are actually options now.

Hey, I think that the voidable years, you know, to me, and I talked to a couple of teams about this, I'm like, man, there's a lot of kicking money down the road. Like, eventually this all has to be paid. And the response I got was, you know, there's going to be more money in the system down the road. Teams aren't that worried about it. And, you know, are there a couple of teams that are probably going to get themselves in trouble?

Sure. that's probably going to happen. But I think that I really truly believe that when Dack Crescott signed the deal that he signed, and it was interesting because Mike Floreo kind of took umbrage at this. Like everyone's saying, well, it's such a foolish storyline that the reason why the DAC deal got done was because Jerry knew what the TV deals, the TV deal is going to be. I don't think it's that the Dack deal got done. I think it's that the Dack deal got done the way it got done. Jerry put Dack Prescott into a pipeline where he said, sure, I'm going to blow out yourself. basically every four years, if this goes well. We're going to make you, but if you play to 40, you're going to make more money than any NFL players ever made in history. And to me, it's that structure that suggests that Jerry's sitting there going, I know there's going to be a lot of money. Like, I mean, Jerry's there.

And so I think as Kevin, you asked about the teams versus agents or teams want to get the money done before the spike, agents want to wait until after the spike. There's that dance right now, finding the happy media. DAC was an example of that. Yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be wild to see how that develops. Any other bold predictions for the rest of this month, Charles? Are we going to get any quarterback movement, like big quarterback movement? You know, I will say one thing that has surprised me over the last week.

When the whole Russell Wilson thing came up with Seattle, I was like, come on, this is ridiculous. We're really, we're going to talk about this. Well, a couple of things are happening now that make me believe that that that, could continue to be an unfolding storyline. Number one, Deshawn Watson's camp is frustrated because he sort of shoehorned himself with the, with the, I guess, in the field of view of some of these teams that should have only been looking at Deshawn Watson and now they're calling Seattle saying, hey, we're not on Russ's list of teams, but we would like to be considered on his list of teams and we'd like to get involved here. So for example, I think if Russ said, hey, Miami and New York,

fine. The Jets and Dolphins, if you want to put them in the group, take the call, figure it out, whatever. I think the Jets would make a run at Russell Wilson. And I think what's interesting is the reason why I think that there's a slightly growing percentage chance that it happens is when you talk to the two sides, they're both sitting there going, I don't really know how we get it back to how it was. Like if this, if we can't make a, you know, something work out here and he doesn't get dealt. There are some significant trust issues where the team feels like Russ and his camp put some stuff out there about Pete and players

that, you know, has basically destroyed his trust in the locker room. And Russ and his camp think that, hey, some of the internal machinery that was working and got leaked out into the media, that that came from the front office and that they were basically trying to hammer Russell Wilson down and take away his ability to have an effect on the team.

the way he would like to. So there's a lot of trust issues there. And just like the Deshawn Watson situation, which I think will be resolved closer to the draft, I think Russell Wilson, I would watch the next two weeks. I agree. And when I talk to people who are on the league,

they keep saying both sides, there are so many situations where this happened and there's a flare up between quarterback and coach or star player and whomever. And it gets put to bed almost immediately. Maybe it lingers for a week and gets put to bed. Neither side, Seattle nor Wilson's camp, has even attempted to put this to bed.

And that's what I think is so fascinating about the situation. And I just don't know what they're doing because I kind of think, unless Wilson ends up in a great situation and the team that he's going to doesn't give up a lot. I think that both player and team might end up in a worse place unless they, everyone takes a deep breath and solves this thing. Charles Robinson, that was awesome. Thank you so much, man. Thanks, Charles.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Free agency edition, Nora Prince Yadde joins me. We have Nick Underhill covers the New Orleans Saints for New Orleans. Dot Football, joining later. And he's here to tell us about not only the Saints and their free agency plans, but also we get him to explain. He might be the only person outside of Mickey Loomis, get him to explain how the Saints operate with Sowery Cap. Really fascinating discussion.

Nora, what's going on? Not much, Kev. Good to be potting with you. I used to cover the Patriots with Nick Underhill, and he's super smart. So getting him to explain the Norland salary cap, which frankly makes me very nervous. It doesn't even make me angry. It just makes me very nervous. It was helpful.

It was therapeutic, really. It was. He used the phrase mafia accounting, which is the reason we had him on, quite frankly, is to use that phrase. And what we kind of landed on was that everything that we needed to know could be summed up as what's going on? What's the deal with this? which is kind of what we're going to do with everybody else we talk about. We're playing what's the deal here. I thought that the first day of free agency was fascinating

because the money was bunched up. And what I mean by that is a lot of times in for agency, the money makes decisions for you. And with this, because there wasn't a lot of money to go around, there were some teams that broke the bank and opened up the first strings, we're going to talk about them, obviously. But because a lot of the players were getting a lot of similar money, a lot of it comes down to fit,

a lot of it comes down to where did a player want to go. We saw almost straight swaps. You know, you look at the Lawson and the Hendrickson thing, where Lawson goes to New York and Henderson comes to Cincinnati for basically the same money. We'll get to all that. But I thought it was a fascinating glimpse at football just because you got to see it was so pronounced where some teams are and what their plans are. And so what we're going to do here is we're going to go through 10 teams.

And we're just going to figure out what's the plan? What are they doing? And what did the last, what, 24 hours teach us? Now, this is sort of incomplete because obviously we've only gone through one day, Hunter Henry just signed with the Patriots. Now, I believe that makes it 300 for agents they've added in the last day. But for this is, there are still guys out there, Kenny Gallaudet, a lot of those skill guys. The market has basically crashed. If you listen to some agents and some beat reporters doing this stuff, the market is basically crashed on a lot of these skill guys, especially outside.

You know, Juju has not signed. Keni Galdi has not signed. and where those guys end up is a fascinating question because maybe they take less money, maybe they take a bridge deal, we'll see, we'll put that aside for a second. We want to go through what these teams have done and what some of these, where these players have landed

and what it tells us about the league. We will start with the New England Patriots. Nora, what the heck is the deal with the Patriots? I don't think Bill Belichick liked going seven and nine. I think that was an unpleasant experience. I think he hated the 2020 Patriots. I think he despise the 2020 Patriots and was like, everybody out, I'm signing Jalen Mills.

I'm handing Nike Bell, check the credit card. Let's go. So the one person that he apparently did not hate, just kidding, there's more than one. But the main person that apparently was welcome back was Cam Newton. So they re-sign Cam. And then they start adding. So they get Nelson Aguilar, Kendrick Bourne, Johnu Smith. They bring Trent Brown back.

They re-sign a couple guys. They add to the defense, Matt Judon. They re-signed Justin Bethel, Jalen Mills. So a little bit on both sides of the ball. Nothing like crazy needle moving. But then you add in Hunter Henry. Yeah. And the skill position group is going to look really different next year.

We will see to what degree that enhances how much production Cam Newton can give them. I'm still not, you know, until you have your real quarterback of the future, which I don't think Cam is. I wonder what the ceiling is. but Bill does not seem to care. He would like to improve upon last year. I don't think he enjoyed that experience very much. Yes. So I think the Hunter Henry thing ties it all together.

I think that there were a couple of questionable signings here. We knew coming into this that the Patriots were going to spend. And I also actually think it's a little bit misguided, the narrative that Bill Belichick never spends in free agency. He looks at value and he tries to make sure he's spending as little money as possible. But he spent a lot of money in for agency before. He signed Stefan Gilmore. He signed Thomas, you know, in 2007, 2006, whenever that was.

Roosevelt Colvin. He signed guys historically. He just tends to look at value when he's doing this stuff. So the Johnny Smith-Hunter Henry thing is fascinating to me because obviously Bill Belichick likes to use the middle of the field. He likes the two tight end stuff. We've seen that before. There's a reason he went out and drafted Robert Wuncaste and Aaron Hernandez a decade ago. And that's something he's comfortable with.

he's obviously going out and getting skill guys because he can't draft him, quite frankly. Like he's learned this. Nikil Harry was a bad pick. He's drafted a lot of bad receivers. So the other point to that is that for a long time, they had their contract structured in such a way that, and this is a high class problem here, but they didn't want to upset the salary structure by suddenly paying someone more than Julian Edelman or Rob Gruncowski. That was really important. that was something that they believed would have a real negative impact on the locker room. So those guys are either not there.

They're getting older. And all of a sudden, there's a little bit more flexibility to be willing to go out and spend on those guys, which I think is a big part of it as well. But yeah, to your point, they really needed it. I would also, I talked to a source once who would absolutely know, who said that Tom Brady taking less money set a culture there that allowed other people to think it was okay to take less money. and it all kind of flowed down through there. And they would use, they would literally say in negotiation sometimes, hey, you can't make more money than Tom Brady. And so that obviously changed a little bit. I believe Gilmore made more money than Tom Brady in certain years and that changed a handful of times.

But to do a negotiation that did come up sometimes, hey, Tom Brady makes it takes less money. So yes. So the Mills thing, four years, $24, $9 million guaranteed. I think that might be the biggest head scratcher aside from the actual money for Agaolor. And, you know, it's interesting. I think that the fact that Agalore took what amounts to the veterans minimum last year. There was, it's just kind of a minimum veterans exception kind of thing that Aguilar was on last year. It's almost like you would expect the roles to be reversed where Belichick would get the good year out of Agilor for no money.

And then the Raiders would sign him the following year. And now we see that flipped. So it just a little bit of Trent Brown. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so they got back on a nice deal. But a lot of this is about versatility.

You know, I saw Mike Reese say yesterday that Jalen Mills can basically, according to the advanced stats, played every single position in the defensive backfield last year, Vigapatho, as far as lining up. You know, Kendrick Bourne, I think, is a decent signing. $5.25 million guaranteed three years 15 million overall. Dietrich Y is coming back. I guess the question, Nora, we thought this is. is just a bad football team last year.

Is there any hope that this is a playoff team in 2021 with these additions? It could be a wild card team, I think. I mean, yeah, sure, because anything can happen, right? But I am not as confident on Cam still having enough to really raise the ceiling. But their skill position group was really bad last year. So maybe all of a sudden we'll be looking at a team that has these receivers, has Hunter Henry, and just has a little bit more ability to create bigger plays and doesn't have to play with such a thin margin for error all the time.

But you look at the division, which is getting better and has gotten better, I still have a hard time seeing a path for them to win it. But I think they'll be better. They'll be better. Fine. This does not make them as good as the bills. And certain things make sense. You know, Judon drops back into coverage. I saw the NFL had the number that he drops back in cover.

average and 25% of his pass snaps and Belichick loves dropping edge defenders, obviously. And I think that there's, you know, the Judon signing, I saw the PFF guys say that maybe he's not that good at a pass rusher because most of his pressures come against unblocked, unblocked formations, basically. But I think that there's, there's some cases to be made for all of these guys. I just don't see them any better than the Dolphins at this point. We'll see what it happens at the Dolphins quarterback position. But I still think that we're looking at this generally the same order as it was last year where it goes, Bill is number one and then some combination of the dolphins and then the Patriots

and the Jets being in last place. I just don't feel like any, Hunter Henry is by far the best signing here. But I just didn't, I don't, I don't think this retail therapy or the stimulus or whatever you want to call it. I don't think it tangibly changed the outlook. The one thing that we should add is just the way that this all went down because, you know, the legal tampering period and the illegal tampering period are what they are. But they lined these things up pretty quickly.

And seemingly in this very strange marketplace did know what they wanted. Had some pretty clear targets here and were able to get things so really fast. Yeah, they wanted not to 2020 Patriots. Let's go. Just anybody. different shopping spree. Yeah. You've had that before.

All right. Just get all the clothes just out of your closet. You hate it. I've done that before. Just whatever it is. I'm in cold weather right now. I have to switch it up. All right.

Chargers. Interesting little day for them because this is a team. And I think it's fascinating. We've talked so much about how the big jump goes from year one to year two in the NFL. Josh Allen made an exception to that. Who was, you know, his huge jump was from year two to year three. but if you're going to assume that there's going to be a huge jump from Justin Herbert

from year one to year two, what they're doing is exactly what you're supposed to do. Just because Justin Herbert looked good under pressure doesn't mean you should just keep him under pressure, okay? Like just because he could throw 60-yard darts with guys in his face doesn't mean you should have him keep doing that. So they go out and they sign, they sign Corey Lindley,

who is the best center in football probably. And then they go out and they sign Matt Filer. So the numbers on that, Filer is $21 million over three years. Lindsay is five years 62. They also signed cornerback Michael Davis for three years, 25. They went shopping last year and added some interesting veterans as well. And I think that this could be a sneaky good team.

I do not think they're better than the chiefs. I don't think they're in one in the division. But I think this can be a 10-win team as long as Herbert takes the jump that we're we're expecting from them. I think that the fact that they understand what they have and the fact that they're going in on the line says a lot about, I think Tom Salasco is a pretty good GM. He's drafted well. I think this plan is shaping up. I don't don't take your young franchise quarterback for granted and they're playing it right, Nora, Chargers.

The Lindsay deal is big. It's five years, 62 and a half million. I really like it because interior offensive line is so important. in general, but for any offense, but particularly those offense that have been sort of influenced by the McVease, the Shanahan's, the Kubiaks of the world, which, you know, we'll see what the dominant influences there are on that team. It's a little hard to tell they keep Shane Steichen, but we'll see what Staley wants to implement there. Obviously, he comes from the other side of the ball, but we'll have input on the whole team. Center is so critical to those types of

of offenses that it did draw my eye that they were willing to sort of shell out there because a lot of what those guys like to run goes through having a really smart player and a really good player at that position to be able to coordinate everybody, to be able to move, to be able to be able to be able to be able to take some of the pressure off of the quarterback. So particularly for a young guy like Herbert, I think if you're going to shell out, that's the place to do it. Yep, I agree. Do you think the chargers will be, I don't know. I know Goode is a relative term, especially when you have a young quarterback like that. But when you look at the 20-21 chargers, you think what? I think they're one of the most fascinating teams in football because, yeah, Herbert was so, we've, the needle has completely shifted, right? Like, it was really surprising how good he was. And now he has an opportunity to get even better in year, too, which we've seen a lot of quarterbacks do pretty dramatically. So will it happen?

to like will the the improvement from expectations to year one and then from year one to year two, is that going to be the same? I don't know. But with this time under his belt, you would expect that it'll at least move the needle somewhat. So I think they could be really good. Like their roster. We say this every year. I get it.

Like the chargers are the chargers. But they have actually kind of hit the reset button in terms of the infrastructure. And the roster is still really good. I'm fascinated to watch them. Plus, when they have full stadiums, it's all. No, in all seriousness, and I probably tell too many jokes about the Chargers, but I think that they're a really good franchise right now.

And I think they've got the coach, they've got the GM, they've got the plan. I like this team. I like this team. We'll get more into it, especially, you know, after the draft and see how they shape up. But at this point, I had them as a playoff team. And there's not a lot that can be, that can be done that would talk me out of that. at this point.

All right. The New York Jets, who the only team, I believe, that had more money to spend the New England Patriots, you know, I think that early,

first of all, and this is just an overarching thing, if you're getting mad at your team in free agency, just in the frayancy period at all, log off because I think that there's a, you know, Warren Sharp was on this podcast last week,

and basically said that the teams that spend the most money in free agency don't win. And I think that we sometimes overreact, And there's trade you can make. There's the draft. There's all this stuff. So don't overreact in general. But certainly don't overreact.

Are the jets? No, they were mad for three hours. They were mad for the first three hours when everybody else was getting signed. And now the jets come out and they have a pretty solid, I would say, you know, nice little run here. So Carl Lawson becomes probably the best player they have in a frenancy period, three years, 45 million, 30 million dollars guaranteed. Corey Davis, three years, 37 million, $27 million guaranteed,

and Drod Davis, one year, $7 million. So Cory Davis fits the Mike Lafleur offense. Big guy can, can, I was watching some tape really that Matt Bill and put up. He can run those, those in-breaking rounds, physical. It's the kind of guy that you need. He can block. He can catch. I think that's a fine signing.

And then Carl Lawson, who I really like, and we were talking about the Hendren thing earlier. So Hendrickson goes from New Orleans, Cincinnati, and then Lawson goes from Cincinnati to New York. And I think that if it's the same money, I would choose Lawson a hundred times out of a hundred. I think that Henderson got a little less guaranteed. And with Cincinnati, that's always the consideration. But I really like Carl Lawson. So the Jets, you know, they didn't get to 12 wins here today, but I kind of like what they've done. I do too, especially because all those players are young, you know, there'll be 26 on opening day. So that's a builder of a team and they're sticking to that.

Presumably they're going to run a 4-3 and having Lawson to combine with Quinn and Williams on the inside is a good combination. So you needed someone who was that caliber of a pass rusher if that's how you're going to be changing your defense. So I like it. I like it for the Jets. I'm not mad at the Jets. I'm not mad at the Jets. I was just looking.

I for some reason. I wasn't even mad at the Jets for three hours. Well, you're not a Jets fan. That's true. I like our new segment. Let's check in on the Jets fans. There's a lot of Jets fans in my life. And I would say they were pressing the panic button within an hour of legal tampering.

That's all. I think Joe Douglas is a really good GM who was tethered to Adam Gace and it wasn't, we weren't able to see that last year. So interesting times. All right. The Kansas City Chiefs who had a really interesting few weeks. Obviously, they cut Mitchell Schwartz, Eric Fisher. We know what their line looked like when it was injured during the Super Bowl.

And we know what to expect going forward. So they restructure a bunch of deals. They get some cap room. And they sign Joe Tooney for a huge contract. It is five years, $80 million. The guarantees are not out on that as of yet. Nora, you've covered Joe Tunney. You kind of know what he brings.

The Patriots let him go, which I thought was an interesting move. I don't really know where I come down. that. But the chief's making some noise at the offensive line. What did you think? Joe Tuny is great. I think if you have had their experience at offensive line where they've had talent, but through injuries and inconsistent play

and just a lot of shakeups there, they've had to, they've just had so much uncertainty there. And Joe Tuny, in addition to being a really athletic guard, a really, really, really, really

like one of the best in the league at the position caliber player. He is the most steady guy you could find. He's never played fewer than 92% of snaps any season in his career. He's played 100% of the snaps three times in five years. He had one season, two seasons ago. He didn't get called for a penalty the entire year. He's just like every day he is that he's never missed a game. He is there all the time.

he's always steady. He's always solid. And I think if they're rewatching the Super Bowl, if they're thinking back on their last couple of years, where again, they've had good talent on the offensive line, but things just, you know, nothing's ever felt like a sure thing. I totally see why that's the guy you want.

Yeah. So obviously offensive line is a weak link sort of position where if you've got one really bad player, the whole thing falls down. Defense is a little bit like that too. But I think this is what they had to do, which is go out and just retool everything and realize that Patrick Mahom, the thing about the money here,

and especially when you have Mahomes, especially when he's taken less earlier in the deal to get everybody under contract. You know, I've talked to Brett Beach about this a lot. He really has an attitude of nothing is impossible. Like, nothing is impossible. I don't know if there's a more confident GM in the league, and there's a reason for him to be confident

because he's really good at his job. But I don't, he basically, views nothing as an obstacle. And so the fact they didn't have a bunch of money, okay, they're restructured. Now they're giving Joe Cheney a bunch of money. I don't think that this precludes them from fixing all five spots on their line or the spots that needed to be fixed. I think that they understand. They saw the Super Bowl and they know what needs to be needs to happen. And so interesting times, I don't think that I for me, I think, you know,

having Patrick Mahomes gets them to 11, 12 wins, and I just don't think much will happen that precludes them from making the it's a chance to game them, and then we'll see. All right, Tennessee Titans, they needed pass rush. They got it. Whether or not they got the right pass rush is a question we're going to debate here. So here's the lineup here. So De Nico Autry, three years, $21 million, $9 million guaranteed.

Bud Dupree, the big ticket item, five years, $82 million. $35 million guaranteed. So they retool the front seven, Nora, where are we on the Tennessee Titans? The Titans are just like, they're like, I'm ready to get hurt again. Like, I like the sightings, but it's just, man, like their history of spending on free agent pass rushers

is not the prettiest. And it's funny, I love Bud Dupree as a player. This was the one place where I felt like he wouldn't end up just because don't they need like a piece. pure, pure, pin your ears back pass rusher instead of kind of like a subtle do-it-all guy? They do. And I, you know, Bud Dupree is, I think Sam Monson had this, is I think number two in unblocked pressures. There are some numbers there that are a little bit worrying. I like Bud Dupree. Ryan Chazer was on this podcast a couple weeks ago and could not have said more nice things about Bud Dupree.

I think that it's pretty pricey. It's pretty pricey for Bud Dupree. And I'm worried now about the Titans generally. I think that they lost, I don't think they lost it. They went from Malcolm Butler and Kenny Vicar. Those guys are out. John Smith is out.

Corey Davis is out. And they've added Autry and Bud Dupree. And I understand that they needed pass rush. And I understand that they couldn't get off the field last year. I was talking to a Titans fan a couple days ago who was just saying, I don't care what we do. I just need to get off the field on third down. Like that is the number one priority.

I don't know if they became a better team in the last week. In fact, I doubt it. I still don't they have talent. I still think they have good infrastructure. They lost Arthur Smith is one of the best play callers in football. But I don't know. I think I think Vrable and company might be on the low end of outcomes here. And I think that they might be.

I don't know. We're not doing pure winners and losers here. But if you're doing who subtracted the most value from their team, might be the Titans. Like, bottom, bottom 10. Dupree's also coming off on E.C. Delta tear, which it's funny. I think recent history with some

player injuries that's teaching us that it's certainly not as big of a deal as it once was, but given the Titans history here, it's just the type of thing that makes you kind of white knuckle it a little bit and go like, oh, are we going to be in for another clowny situation?

I like John Robinson as a GM. I like Mike Brayball as a coach. But I don't know about this one. I'm with you on the ACL. History is shown that it's not what you want. don't want to commit huge money to it. All right, Tampa Buccaneers are running it back. Levante David was already in the fold. Chris Godwin was already tagged. They bring back Shaq Barrett four years, $68 million, $36 million guaranteed yesterday. I was surprised he signed

that early. But again, this is the type of thing with this free agency where because there's not a lot of money, a team like Tampa Bay gets to bring back Shaq Barrett pretty easily and pretty early into free agency because there's no crazy team that's going to say, we're going to give you $20 million more. that's just not happening in this environment. And that's why it benefits. That's why I could waste go. I was saying, listen, it benefits the good teams what's happening here because they'll be able to keep these guys.

Aaron Jones in Green Bay. I mean, that's the type of guy where if this were another season, maybe he tries to go to free agency and tries to get $10 million more, $20 million more. I know Gerosen House said that he thought there'd be bigger offers in free agency. I don't think they'd be that big. Because again, oftentimes in a normal cap environment, the money makes a decision for you. Okay. and this is not that kind of year.

So they run it back. Robert Mikowski, one year, $10 million as well, $8 million guaranteed. Fine signing. I know that he was on Kyle Brands podcast on the Ringer Network yesterday saying he's a year-to-year guy at this point. That doesn't surprise me since he literally retired last year. We're all year-to-year guys. We're all year-to-year.

So the bucks, I don't know how you can be angry at it, eh, Nora? Totally. I mean, it's hard to, like, elephant in the room, really hard to win the Super Bowl. two years in a row. So certainly doing this does not guarantee that. But why would you not try to keep the band together and have a slightly more normal fingers crossed season to see what they can do again? I mean, they are all in in a way that tells me that a few years down the line, there's probably going to be a painful reset button moment. Like, resigning Levante David was kind of the thing that got the domino's rolling here. And he's got a three and a half million dollar cap hit this

year that will obviously go up. So they'll have some figuring out to do down the line, but the time is now for Tampa Bay. So go for it. And I can't think of a better year. Maybe that's hyperbolic, but to have a good team and be in that post-Super Bowl honeymoon period where guys are like, no, I want to stay here forever. I love it. Like, that's a pretty good combination in this environment where, to your point, the same types of dollar figures are not being thrown around for some of these guys. Jason Light should have just been at the dock after when everybody was drunk and just gotten them to agree to deal. So you should have been handing on extensions at the dock.

Excuse me, Levanti. Can you go over here for a second? All right. So Thorne Ishton points this out and I thought it was interesting. Tom Brady, Chris Godwin, Rob Gronkowski, Shack Barrett, Levante, David. Their combined cap hit for 2021. If you already guessed, Nora, what is it? $18 million.

It is $35 million. But that's still... The combined... Wait, did you say Tom Brady? I did say Tom Brady. Okay. Missed that one. So Brady Godwin, Grunk, Barrett, and Levanti combined cap it of $35 million.

That's pretty good. And Tom Brady's also making what amounts to basically market value for him, too. Do you think he's still giving everyone ugs? Because that used to be part of it, right? In New England, you got your full contract value plus a pair of ugs around the holiday. season from Tom Brady. I gotta be honest, I don't know if that really matters if you live in Tampa. Like, what's the value of a pair

ofugs in Tampa Bay? I would also say the COVID season probably led to some restrictions on gifts and stuff. They weren't really just palling around in the locker room. I wonder if there was maybe a one year kind of temporary suspension of gift giving.

There were a lot of protocols last year. Nor are you doing reporting on this? A lot of protocols. Yeah, but also a lot of online shopping. He could have sent him to their houses. Yes. I think that there's I think that there's probably something there this year where especially if everything returns normal by OTAs. We talked so much about how the Bucks were going to get better the season went along last year because there was no offseason because there's no training camp, all that stuff. If that stuff returns to normal this year and you can actually have OTAs and you can have a full training camp and they can wear pads and all that stuff, the Bucks are only getting better.

Like no one cares more about workouts in June than Tom Brady. and if he has that this year, things change. So that's, man, the bucks are really good. And I know that's not a new point because they won the Super Bowl a month ago. But there's a real case who made that there could be a bit of an NFC juggernaut there, especially when you consider some other things that have in the NFC. I think that the Rams are interesting as far as the NFC goes. And the Packers are always going to be interesting.

But man, the bucks are damn good. All right, let's talk about the Ravens real quick because they're a team. Obviously, they lost Matthew Judon. Um, they probably have some work to do, uh, overall. They signed Kevin Zitler for three years, $22 million, $16 million guaranteed. That's what they wanted to do. They wanted to retool the offensive line. They wanted to protect Lamar Jackson.

Um, hopefully from a team building standpoint, there's a, there's a receiver out there for them, um, that they can, they can lock in for a good value. Uh, but no complaints about this deal. This one is incomplete. No complaints about that deal specifically to me, but the Raven situation to me is incomplete until we figure what they are doing at receiver and outside linebacker. Because outside linebacker, and Orlando Brown. And Orlando Brown.

Yes. And Orlando Brown. Because that changes everything. If he gets ready. Right. But the receiver thing is critical. I mean, that passing game was really missing an element last season.

And if they're going to, you know, be staring down the barrel of the no longer cheap era of Lamar Jackson quarterbacking, figuring that out is is really, really, really critical because that sets their ceiling. And the outside linebacker thing is more about plugging holes, but it's still critical, you know, that defense has been the backbone of that team. So this one to me is still TBD. Agreed.

And I think that maybe there's a second, third wave of Freedancy receiver who makes this all complete and solves the puzzle. I don't know who that would be. But I do know, listen, the AFC North is fascinating. So I think John Johnson, and the Browns are not in our list because they just, you know, they're not going to go out and spend a ton of money or there's not going to be some great statement about where they are as a franchise. But John Johnson is one of the best coverage safeties in football.

And for him to go, I think, three years, $33 million to the Browns, that's it. That's a team, I think, that's going to just get better next year, especially when you consider the fact that they're going to be in year two of a new coaching staff, who again, kind of what we're talking about with the bucks, they're going to have continuity that they didn't have last year. They only had to build over the course of the season. And so I think the Browns are interesting. And I'm wondering now, I don't love the Steelers next year. I think there's a floor there because we've seen how good they are, even without Ben

Rathasperger, but I'm looking at eight or nine wins for them. I don't think the Bengals got significantly better today or in the last 24 hours. So I'm really looking at the Browns and the Ravens in that division. And I'm curious to see in the second third wave of free agency, which team gets that edge because I could go either way, quite frankly. And I think John Johnson is one of the best signing so far. And I also think Kevin Zitler is one of the best signing. So I'm next week or so, I'm ready to call the AFC North as far as Freedancy goes pre-draft. And it'll go from there.

Wow, that's a big announcement. The Johnson signing I really love. My big announcement is that I'm monitoring the NFC North for a call. It's like election night. I'm close to the, some of the counties are in. I'm not ready to give a call. You were the John King of the AFC North. Who's the guy that says, I've seen enough?

Oh, Dave Wasserman. Dave Wasserman. I haven't seen enough at the AFC North, but I'm just saying I'm monitoring it. And I will say, like everybody says, wait for the draft. The trade stuff for me is why the draft is important. I think that we overrate sometimes.

And actually, I think one of the biggest mistakes I make in predictions all the time. is saying, oh, this guy got drafted, he's going to be an impact player. Like, impact rookies are kind of rare. So that's why I might call before the draft. We'll see. Well, it's on my radar. Impact rookies and also just the draft is the draft, right?

Like, I like most of the Patriots moves to go back to our earlier conversation. The vast majority of them are refilling the deck at positions where they have not drafted well. Right? So the draft is no short thing. Can I just loop back to John Johnson for a second? And let's just solidify how badly the Browns needed good safety play last year and weren't getting it. So that contract is really affordable. And it's at a position of serious need.

So I like it. Right. And I would also say that Grant Delphitt, who was their second roundback last year, was out for the entire season. We'll be healthy. Yeah, exactly. With an Achilles tendon. So they're going to be bad. So they're going to go from that being a serious weakness.

to potentially a pretty good part of their team. They're going to be better in 2021, the defensive backfield. And I think that that's so important. I do think that there's, with the Ravens especially, there's a bias towards thinking they're doing the smart thing. And it's interesting to me when I'm looking at all these deals. And I come in and saying, okay, Joe Douglas is a good GM. You know, Andrew Barry, I think is a good GM.

Eric Takas is a great GM. And then I kind of flow through there and give everybody the benefit of the doubt. With Belichick in particular, I want to go back to this point you were made. Because I saw Will Brinson say that Aguilar and Kendrick Bourne get a combined $48 million. Okay. Not all that's guaranteed. In fact, the cap it for Bourne is shocking a little low. That was something out of order this morning.

Do you think that if other teams were doing this, that the GM would be right to the close? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Like if the Jets were doing this, we would say, ah, same old Jets, Joe Douglas. You can't remove this stink from the Jets. I do think that there would be some criticism all on those lines. I am. I mean, Agalore, right?

Like, Agalore is the one that people would be, because he's had such a, first of all, like, somebody make a 30 for 30 or a movie about just Nelson Agalor's career to date because it is a roller coaster ride. But that's the one, I think, where people would be like, you're paying this receiver with this, sometimes great, but this shaky of a production history that much money? Question mark, question mark, question mark.

Yep. It's $13 million for Nelson Angeloar and it's strange. But they've got the money. And again, I'm going to do what I'm warning against, which is instead of saying, what are you doing, Bill Belichick saying, well, he's smarter than me. He's probably got to figure it out. Well, also look at a certain point,

like at a certain point, when the draft is not working for you, like try something else. You know, this, yeah, sure, this doesn't work out for a lot of teams, this type of behavior. But what they were doing wasn't working either. So I think it's kind of like you can definitely look at this and say, we are not confident that this is going to make the Patriots a playoff team again.

Yeah. But it's hard to fault the attempt because, again, doesn't seem like they like the whole medium good to bad thing. One thing about it, you know, this goes to the Aaron Jones deal too, is the Packers and the Niners and the Rams keep telling us, and their coaching staff keeps telling us that the running back is the most, is where their offense flows through. And at some point, you just have to believe them and realize that, okay, they're, they're not just throwing darts to a dartboard or they're not just overrating the running back. It's that they feel that this unlocks everything else. And one of the things about Belichick is there are certain. positions. And I've talked to Michael Lombardi about this before on this podcast. But, you know,

he doesn't mind overpaying for something that he thinks they desperately need. That's why he'll draft a special teams guy in the middle rounds. When nobody else is talking about special teams, he'll just say, you know what, we need this. I don't care about this particular thing. He doesn't have, he doesn't have a huge ego about it when he thinks that they need, they desperately need something. And so I think that we, we kind of over-concentrate on Bell, Belichick value shopping and sometimes he can get a little desperate because everybody can because he knows exactly what this team needs. And that's why I give the benefit of the doubt because I think from a roster building standpoint, Belichick has a pretty good handle of what they need.

And I think he's okay overpaying because listen, this might just be another inefficiency. It's nobody else has money. So the inefficiency is overpaying players. I know that sounds like the most ridiculous thing in the world. And I don't love a lot of these signings. I'm just saying that Bill Belichick has built a career on zinging when everybody else is zagging or vice versa, however that phrase goes. And right now, they have money. Nobody else does. So overpay guys. And he marches to the beat of his own drummer.

And I don't love these signings, but I understand what they're doing it. Should we go kind of rapid fire through our last few? Yep. All right. Indianapolis Colts don't sign anybody. They had a bunch of money. I'm okay with this, especially the second, third way. They'll get value here.

Yeah, I was going to throw this one back to you and just be like, they're just chilling, I guess. We'll see. But I trust them. Yeah, they're fine. Jackson and Jaguars. So they sign. Hilarious. They sign Carlos Hyde, who has a connection with both Urban Meyer and Trent Balkie, so coach and GM.

And then Ray Sean Jenkins, five, four years, $35 million, $16 million guaranteed. He's a safety. He played with the Chargers. I don't know. This has been a lot of the guys, PFF, a couple other guys have graded. This is a pretty bad signing. Duane Smoot, two years, $14 million. One of my favorite names in football.

Why does he with Jamal Agnew, three years, $21 million. Roy Robertson Harris, three years, $24 million as well, $14 million. Guaranteed he was on the Bears last year. So I don't love these signings, Nora. It's like, this is like, it's like Jeff Bezos walking into like LaBernadine and ordering a soup and then leaving. Like they're just signing backups. They have like $100 million to spend and they're just like, let's get some depth signings in this house. I don't know what they're doing.

I don't know if they think this is going to be a longer rebuild or whatever. This is the- I don't think they're done. What's funny here, what's funny here is that we keep talking about just plans and stuff like that. And I just don't know. Nothing has been revealed to me with the plan here with the Jaguars. They're not hoarding cap space. They're not doing anything.

They're just kind of signing guys that they confuse me. So it is what it is. All right, Washington football team. So they sign Ryan Fitzpatrick. Ryan Fitzpatrick bows to no man when it comes to making $10 million a year to play for teams who don't necessarily know what they're doing with a quarterback position. He's made a career out of it. I don't remember the last time Ryan Fitzpatrick.

signed with the team that had a plan a quarterback. Obviously, he was with the dolphins for two years. And the second year, they had a plan. He's the king. The Washington football team has won this round of who is going to be the next team to give Ryan Fitzpatrick $10 million. Like, that is the name of the game, and they have played it perfectly. And they are the winners, and I'm happy for them.

Taylor Heineke, man, got to be scared. Like, that's the kiss of death. again, he is a great line. He's a line of demarcation. Can you beat out Ryan Fitzpatrick? I don't think Taylor Heinecke can. I don't think he can't. I don't think that this removes them from make another play a quarterback.

I'm a little disappointed in the fact that they weren't bigger spenders. I think they had the sixth or seventh most cap space. I think that there's, you know, I was on Cowherd yesterday, and he was saying that they should have swung for the fences and tried to get Russell Wilson that Russell Wilson should have put the football team on his list because they have a nasty front seven, because they have Terry McLaren, because if his whole thing is legacy, winning in Washington is pretty amazing, quite frankly. And if you win under Dan Snyder, you can win anywhere.

But I also think that they're in this situation, Washington's in the situation. I was on Ben Standing's podcast a couple weeks ago and I was talking about this. They're in a situation where they've got a lot of cheap pieces, especially in their front seven, who are going to get incredibly expensive in a couple of years, whether that's Chase Young, where that's any of the first round picks that they have up in that front seven, why that's Terry McLaren. And they're almost in the opposite situation of a team that has a rookie quarterback.

And it seems that rookie quarterbacks are able to go all in in every other position. Well, they're able, they should be able to go all in on quarterback because they've got a lot of pieces they're going to have to pay in a couple of years. And so I don't know. I, you know, obviously it's the second year. I love Ron Rivera as a coach.

They've got some interesting pieces there. I'm a little disappointed that this is they're going to end up with the quarterback. Well, the problem is that if they're not good enough, they're going to be too good, right? Because if they go, you know, if they win eight games or nine games or something, and it's just a slight improvement,

well, they're not going to be in position to, or they would have to collect some other resources if they wanted to get in position to draft a guy high or they'll just be sort of back in the woods, right? I think, and I trust that Ron Rivera, like prioritizes culture. Every coach says they do, but I think with him it's really legit. I get why he would want the stabilizing effect of having someone like a fits in there.

So to that extent, I'm like, okay, yeah, I see it. Plus, like, fits is just fun. I'm just happy to have him around. I'm pro fits. I'm pro fits. Yeah, I'm super pro fits. This is a pro fits podcast. I just, you know, the most important thing, really the only thing that matters for them is

figuring out who the quarterback's going to be and then figuring out how you fit in whatever contracts you're going to prioritize around that. And I'm not sure if that makes that, if this makes that challenge easier. Adam Sheffield is reported that James White has interest from several teams, including the Tampa Buccaneers. Tom Brady's just going to take James White and just make him a highly graded receiver again, just like he did two years ago when James White was his top weapon. Okay, now it's time for Nick Underhill. Does a great job covering the Saints for New Orleans. Football. Let's get to Nick. All right, we're

joined now by Nick Underhill of New Orleans dot football. I love dot football. I didn't know what existed. Congratulations on bringing this to my attention. I think everything should be dot football. Yeah, it's a big deal. They're out there. We're out there. New try. So dot football, get on it. All right. So we're bringing you in because we've spent the last month or two years, whatever you want to call it, making fun of the Saints cap situation. And I at this point, point, I would believe anything about the Saints cap. Like, if you came on to tell me that, like, Aaron Brooks was just still on the cap somehow for $3 million.

It's like, yeah, okay, that's fine. So we wanted you on because I think that every time Saints fans are having a panic attack about the cap, they seem to come to you. And you're kind of the, if there's a cap apocalypse, you're the guy leading us out. You're leading us to the light, okay? So, big picture, just in the clearest possible terms, explain to me. like I'm five. How do the Saints do this, Nick? Yeah, so I'm definitely

the guy on the corner with like a hell sign, like ringing a bell, talking about it. And everybody else is going crazy. But yeah, look, I mean, the thing is with them is that they can go forever the way they're going. And basically, it's like if you have two credit cards and you just keep charging off the balance on your credit card, you want to live on the edge forever, you theoretically can do that. And everybody will tell you you can't. But if you just keep getting new cards

and you keep doing it, you can push the same $20 million into the future in perpetuity, and every year you do it. And okay, Drew Breeze leaves. So now you're pushing $20 million on Michael Thomas. And when Michael Thomas is done, it's the next guide. They just kind of keep doing that forever. And at some point, sure, when a global pandemic hits, you do have to pay the bill because you aren't getting any more charge cards

to push it off to. But they can do this forever if they want to. And I think the key for them over the last seven years is that they haven't had a lot of bad contracts. So you don't end up in, you know, cap hell like people say, like if you're pushing money on Michael Thomas or soon it'll probably be Alvin Camara or Ryan Ramcheck, it's not the biggest deal in the world. And yeah, I mean, it did become a little bit preventative this year. They had to cut Janoris Jenkins, who they couldn't cap through a restructure. It would have cost $1.5 million more.

So I think that was kind of more of a deliberate decision. Emmanuel Sanders goes. So there was a little bit of, you know, retribution that had to be paid. But if the cap had continued to go up, they wouldn't be in this position. to this be $20 million debt on Drew Brees, they'd do a couple of deals, push it off, and it wouldn't have been, you know, the 100 million deal they would have got under it,

probably would have been able to keep everybody. Why don't, when you talk to people inside that building, and maybe they don't have the answer, why don't other teams operate like this? If they can go forever, and maybe it's the way they use cash, which I've heard about, maybe it's just that the Saints are comfortable with this sort of chaos,

but why are they the only team that seems to be able to live like this? Yeah, I mean, it is all the things you just mentioned, And then also the thing that doesn't get talked about enough probably is the owner's willingness to put these bills where she's paying all this money up front and there's no complaints. And, you know, I think she just empowered the people to do their jobs and she trusts them to do it. And, you know, if you have an owner that's a little bit worried about his money, if you're restructuring deals and, you know, you got to pay $100 million or whatever it is up front, there's going to be a lot of questions to be answered. And, you know, other people might be swayed by a lot of the noise that's out there. Everybody in the world talks about this cap.

And if your owners, you know, on Twitter, seeing all this stuff, questions are going to start getting asked. But look, I think you are starting to see other teams operate like this. Last year, the Patriots did a few deals with voidable years. That was even pre-pandemic. Some of this stuff was starting to, you know, become a trend around the league to keep your teams together. And, you know, obviously this year with the squeeze on, everybody's working their cap like the Stain's, Tampa Bay just did a deal.

So, you know, it's just a willingness to do it. I'm not saying it's the right way or the wrong way. but it works better, I think, than a lot of people think. A lot of these narratives, you look, 2014, 2015, people were saying the same things. And the bill just never, it just never came due. And they're $100 million over and they tag a player. I mean, they can do these things that it just works for them. And again, it wasn't without any consequence.

They lost a few guys. I think the middle class of their roster is going to be worse than it was in recent years. You know, I think their depth was a hallmark and that's going to get squeezed out a little. It wasn't nearly, you know, the bloodlighting that that everybody thought it was going to be. Don't they in some ways kind of get away with it because they've drafted well. Like if they don't have another draft, I mean, 2017 caliber is kind of a high bar to set. But if they don't find ways to effectively restock that way, do you think it ends up hurting a little bit more down the line than it's hurt to this point? Yeah, I mean, for sure.

I mean, their roster's been good. So that's been a big deal. They've drafted. Well, Jeff Ireland's done a really good job. the draft finding players. The last few drafts haven't been necessarily straight. The last three first round picks are Caesar Ruiz and Marcus Stavonport. Both those guys really haven't worked out to that point.

But yeah, definitely the drafting has been a big deal for them. But look, in 14, they had no space and they put Jarrett Spard on there with the $54 million contract. So like if you give Mickey Loomis like $4 million, he'll find a way to make it work. And if that means a small signing bonus year two, you get a $10 million roster bonus that turns into a signing bonus. you prorated over the final four years, it's $2.5 million per year. Like, they just find ways to do it.

And it's, you know, when I first started covering this team in 2014, like the very first question I ever asked Mickey Loomis was about the cap and I'm on of and I'm looking at it like everybody else. And I've just been deep down over the years to be like, like this is a mafia accounting. Like you just accept it for what it is and they'll find a way. And when they tell you they're in trouble, that's when I'll start acting like I'm in trouble.

And I'll be honest, like the narrative comes. coming out of that building wasn't that this year was the bad year. Next year is a year that they're scared about because if the cap doesn't go up, they've squeezed. They push so much more forward. And if it stays flat, there's nowhere else to go. And, you know, I do think that this year, back that meant a little bit more like Kim Jordan got a restructure. So now you're tied to him and it's going to be, you know, almost $30 million cap hit in a couple of years. I don't think you want to push that again when he's in his mid-30. So this year has created issues for them that they're going to have to deal with next year. So I think there will be a little bit more of a re-polling than we've seen

from them over the last few years. Mafia accounting is the reason we booked you, the phrase mafia accounting. And I agree, you know, it was the interesting thing about the ownership thing. I've actually heard that from a couple of GMs. It's just about the competitive advantage you have when your owner is comfortable spending cash and being able to rearrange things that I think is fascinating. And you also said, if your owner's on Twitter, I will say that if I was a football fan of my owner was on Twitter, I'd be very discouraged. Like, that seems... They all got a burner, right?

They gotta be on there somewhere. What percentage, Nora, what percentage of owners have, have burner Twitter accounts? I'd say like 25%. I actually, yeah, I was going to say under 50. I think what percentage of coaches and general managers have burner Twitter accounts is extremely high. But I think ownership, like, I don't know, man. If you've got over a billion dollars, like, don't have a friggin' burner.

don't have just don't have like an email address if I have yeah just like don't be don't be online be on your boat not online the day that I make a billion dollars

and would finally sell slow news day for one billion dollars the Twitter account goes the email address goes it just I'm just going straight to international waters on a boat never coming back how will we communicate with you you will not

Nick explain this Tason Hill thing to us I know that's a loaded question because you could go in any direction, but I do want to talk specifically about the voidable four-year $140 million contract, which some of it, I think, is shtick at this point with Sean Payton is giving him a huge contract. But obviously, there's a cap reason for it. Let's go in two different directions. We'll start with the money with Tassum Hill and the fact that they've paid him. When you saw that news, you thought what? I thought why is somebody reporting the numbers on avoidable contract? Yeah. That's why I think it was shtick, right? Like that was almost like Sean Payton being like,

this is, let's just play a prank on NFL Twitter. Yeah. It's probably the best active bit in football. The thing with the money, like the, the reason they did that with the big numbers, and they've done this before. They did it with Teddy Bridgewater a few years ago. And he had two voidable years and it added up to like $45 million. $8,000, like you said, it adds up to $140 million over four years, aren't real numbers.

The reason for doing that is because, and I'm going to probably explain this wrong, but when you renegotiate a player, if you do it within 12 months, there's some roles involved with that. And it's just easier for cat person purposes if that number goes down. I believe there's some endurance, like where that number can't go up if you renegotiate within 12 months. So that's the reason they make those numbers absurdly high. Why did they pick 140?

you know, is that the Russell Wilson contract? Is it a nod at the stimulus? You know, I don't know why that was picked, but it seemed like somebody had thought about that to get a reaction out of everybody. And the numbers come out and they got the reaction. So there was a purpose for it. I got to believe.

All right. Two more for you. The number one is, same question, rephrased. What's to deal with Taysam Hill, but on the football side? Is this guy going to be the starter this year? and we'll get to James in a second, but they view Taysam Hill

for, let's just say the next 12 months, how in football perspective? I think he's going to compete a quarterback, and if he doesn't, he'll do everything else. You know, I think you got the greatest answer of all time from Sean Payton about the stuff he can do and all the positions. Like, I'd love to see him play safety. I don't think that's going to happen, but, you know,

I do think that they'll use them as a jack-of-all-trades. Maybe that'll even, you know, expound a little bit. If the freeze isn't the quarterback, they'll find more packages, maybe get a little bit more creative and crazy. with it, but, you know, it feels like the quarterback situation is moving a different direction, but I think that maybe all of us believe he's further out of it than they do. I think there's going to be a legitimate competition for that job.

I remember someone aggregating the Champagne interview we did on Sunday Day, and they were said, this is the first time anyone's been asked to defend their quarterback, and then in the answer is like, oh, well, they can also play a linebacker. That was the first, I think. And then James Winston, so he comes back on a relative. with manageable deal. Obviously, they didn't have a ton of money to spend. They're not going to go out and try to trade for Russell Wilson or Deshawn Watson. Or maybe they will. Maybe you're about to tell us that they will. How did they view James Winston last year and how do they view him going forward now?

They really like him. He did a lot of good stuff. You know, there were throws he made during training camp that like Breeze and face of hell couldn't even consider. But there were also a lot of stakes as well. So, you know, I'll be real interested to see the growth from year one to year two. I mean, I do think that the contract says something about their evaluation of them. Granted, there's the market value, but the number is really small. It's $5.5 million. I had heard it started at $3 million, so he got it up a little bit.

But, you know, I believe that those two will be the guys that are the quarterbacks for this team. But I also think that if something else becomes free from the draft, whether it's a rookie or somebody else drafts the quarterback and now a veteran becomes available, I don't

think that that would prevent them from going after somebody else. So I think it's door number one or two, but there, there's a possibility that a door number three exists. What's, if you were to guess, if you were to put a percentage on, however small door number is, is there a name that you think makes sense? Oh, man. You know, I, I don't know who would be willing to give up on their guy, but like if, if Sam Darnel became available, sure, I think they'd look out of Matt Ryan, Teddy Bridgewater, Jimmy G. Like, I think any of these guys, if they're out there, the thing, like, when you have

Drew Brees, you can look straight ahead and your eyes don't wander. You can be extremely faithful and you aren't worried about what's going on in the world. But when you have, you know, one of these other guys, like your eyes have to shift for the right opportunity. And until James Winston, Taysam Hill locks in, they're the franchise guy, like, I think the Saints are going to look at every single possibility. And if they can steal another quarterback, maybe Winston's the guy. But like if it's somebody else, I think they're going to do that and they're going to continue to create competition. And, you know, Sean likes to say, like they'll be in the quarterback business every single year until they aren't.

I love that every question we've asked you could just be rephrased as, what the heck, man? What's up? What's going on? What's the deal with the Saints? All right. Nick, this has been illuminating. I think for right now, we have our answer when we make fun of the Saints salary cap. The answer is Mafia accounting.

And we really enjoy you making us smarter. Hey, I'm glad I could give that to you. All right. Great episode. Nora, NFL Big Board. On Friday, Danny Hifitz and Danny Kelly will rank free agent signings for him this week. I love it. I love that show. Nora and I will be back next Tuesday.

Nora is going to be putting out more Taylor Swift podcast. Every single album is available now. Nora, what's next? Let's see. So this pod is going to come out on Tuesday afternoon. So our next one, we just dropped the Speak Now episode. So the next one is going to be Red, which is like kind of a thorny album. It took Nathan and I a while to wrap around.

Why is it thorning? Red is where if you had, so one of the things about Taylor that I think is most fascinating is that she doesn't really, like she's, she's never sort of revolutionary from era to era. She always evolves. There's always a through line, which is really fascinating for an artist who has literally spanned three completely distinct genres in her career. But if you had to make a counterinting, argument for that and choose a revolutionary moment. There is, there is one a minute and five seconds into

the fourth song on the album Red that changes the course of Taylor Swift history in a way that nothing else does. So we get to unpack all of that and more on the Thursday. And the biz we call that a tease. Heck yeah. You got to listen. You got to listen. All right. That's it. We'll be back on Tuesday. This has been the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.