The Ringer NFL Show - Which Wild-Card Teams Pose the Biggest Threat? | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 351)

Episode Date: November 26, 2018

The Chargers, Seahawks, and Vikings are looming as potential playoff disruptors; the Packers need a coaching change; and Baker Mayfield is shining in the post–Hue Jackson era (00:30). Plus the Jaguars, Bengals, and Steelers continue to struggle with consistency; the Colts need to stop throwing passes to Andrew Luck; and the Chargers need to leave L.A. (28:30) Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Liz Kelly. Right in time for the holiday season, the ringer's merch store has tons of new stuff. And right now, almost everything on the site is 20% off, including your favorites like binge mode and ringer NBA. And for the first time, we are introducing brand new merch for NBA desktop, Shea Serrano's villains, and Bill's Parent Corner. This Black Friday Cyber Monday sale lasts until Monday, November 26. You can check it out on the ringer.com slash shop. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. How you doing, bud? I am feeling good, a very kind of, I don't know how you describe that slate of Sunday games.

Underwhelming? I mean, coming in. Sparse, sparse. Yeah, coming in, it was underwhelming, and then the games themselves were also underwhelming. It was a really weird slate. I mean, it almost felt like a punishment for the Monday night game. I'm pretty sure that's what this week was. It was a league-wide regression.

That's what this is. Monday night was unsustainable in terms of both points, offense, creativity, and fun. And we got, we felt the bills were due this week. The bills were due. I cannot believe that game,

like, even exists in 2018. That Bill's Jags game. I mean, it's just unwatchable. There's absolutely nothing redeeming about that football game. I mean,

those two teams played in the playoffs last year, dude. I know. And that's how crazy it is. Like, that's how fast it all changes. There was a playoff game and it was those two teams. That's what happened. This calendar year.

How fast it all changes. All right. This calendar year, 2018. Because the slate was kind of strange, what we're going to do today is that we're going to kind of break down some of the wildcard teams that played today that may end up as the five or six seed and try to figure out if any of them are a threat. if any of them are kind of real in the overall grand scheme of the playoff picture. Do you want me to go first?

I guess. So let's start with this. Which team that played today and won, I get? I mean, let's do the teams that won. So Seattle wins. They beat Carolina. They're now in the driver's seat for the wild card. The Colts beat the dolphins.

They're in the same spot. Of those two teams, which do you feel better about winning a wild card weekend playoff game? Oh, if it's just those two teams? Well, let's start with those two teams and let's keep going. Well, let's take a big picture of you because I think that there's some interesting things to consider here. Number one, the sort of large middle of the NFL right now is so unsettled, maybe more unsettled than I can remember in previous years. The difference between this year and previous years is there are three, four teams, I would say four teams that are absolutely elite. And then there's a group of, I don't think it's an understatement to say 10 teams who could, who, who,

were just in this, this weird middle that can go in any direction. And so we're starting to see some of these teams, you know, it's, it's funny because Roger Goodell a couple of years ago floated this idea that that we needed another playoff spot in each conference to reward teams that were coming on hot at the end of the year. And that was abandoned because we started to see, as we discussed, that there was a damn Jaguars bill's playoff game this year. Um, you know, there's no need for that. think that the idea of a team coming on late and making noise is a very exciting thing in football. Do I think either of the Colts or the Seahawks are going to win a playoff game? Probably not.

But I mean, first of all, who the hell knows what's going to happen in a month? I mean, this season is just throwing so many different things at us. But I think that it's something we've talked about a couple of times. Everything outside of basically the conference championship games this year, in my opinion, does not matter. you'll print some t-shirts. It'll be nice, you know, a couple home playoff games or whatever. But I think that the four or five teams

that can make the Super Bowl, we sort of know those. And I don't see any of these wild card teams making the leap except, except for maybe the Chargers, and we'll get to that in a second. Yeah. I mean, the Chargers are definitely the team

that I feel like can knock off one of the things. There is no NFC Chargers. Does that make sense? Yes. I think in the Wild Card kind of conversation. None of the teams or anybody. I think that the Saints and the Rams are playing an NFC championship game as long as everybody's healthy and there's nothing, you know, there's not an alien invasion or something.

Like, I think that's pretty much settled. I can't quite start thinking that way, unfortunately. I am. Oh, oh, Jesus. That's not, that's not allowed for me. Oh, here we go. Even if I believe that that's true, I'm not allowed to say it quite yet. So, but yeah, I agree with you. I don't think that either the Panthers or the Seahawks or whoever gets the wildcard spots in the NFC, they're not in the same class as the Chargers to me. So I tend to agree with you. I think the NFC is much more settled because upsets are going to be harder to come by.

Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, you look at some of these sort of weird teams that could make a run. I mean, the Broncos are back in the conversation. They're five and six. The Ravens, the Bengals, the Colts, the Titans. I mean, and then you look at the NFC, Cowboys, Redskins, Seahawks, Vikings, Panthers. I mean, it's a little different. I'm sorry, the Cowboys and Redskins, one of those two teams, whoever doesn't win the division, is in the wildcard hunt,

just by nature of the records in the NFC. Which is terrifying. Dude, did you see the CBS in the hunt graphic today? Yeah, it's awful. No, dude, the bills are in it. I know. I know. If you have at least three wins, you're not technically out of it.

Two weeks ago, we were doing the inane, could Alabama beat the bills thing? And now the bills are in the hunt. And that just says more about the Jaguars, I think, than it does about the bills. I mean, but they have four wins this year. I know, which is a miracle. They've been the Minnesota Vikings. We discussed this earlier in the season.

Like, the bills having two wins as of week six or seven when we talked about this was a borderline miracle. The bills having four wins on the season is a miracle. Like, that's absolutely incredible. That team is just completely devoid of talent. But that's kind of that tier of the AFC. Like, there just aren't that many teams. that you're excited about whatsoever after the Chargers. So there's two things I want to hone in on here.

Number one is the Seattle Seahawks in their performance today. Because I think that was a, we sort of knew this was going to shake up how we viewed the NFC wild card. And that certainly did that. And I have ranked Russell Wilson as the best quarterback in the NFL on this show in the past. I don't need to stump for him anymore. But he's really good, dude. And he is now the second.

I saw this stat on Twitter. is the second quarterback in the NFL to have a quarterback rating over 100 for his career, the other being Aaron Rogers. I have zero interest in playing Seattle in the playoffs. That terrifies me. As Chicago or anybody? If I'm the Bears. That prospect is very, very scary to me.

Yeah. I mean, for our purposes, I am. There are so many impressive just things today. I mean, first of all, the game winning throw was, unbelievable, as was the game tying throw from Wilson. I mean, he, I was just, I already came in, hugely

impressed, and now I know this is the type of team. I think they can beat the Bears. Absolutely. Can I beat, they beat the Saints? Can they beat the Rams? I think that's a different conversation. I'd kind of like to see that. They gave the Rams all they could handle in their two matchups earlier this season. They ran the

ball down their throat. I mean, I mean, are we ready to rehabilitate Brian Schottenheimer yet? I think, think we're getting there, man. I mean, what they've done on offense is just light years ahead of anything I ever expected from them. Like, it's been pretty impressive. I thought they would be a disaster. I'm ready to rehabilitate Brian Schottenheimer and the running back position. That's where I'm at. And the run game. I mean, just all of these things. I, we, we were very, very dismissive of what this offense could be. And I do enjoy the fact that we've been humbled. I thought that,

this year was going to be the season from hell for them. I just thought that it was all going to go wrong. This is the season when it was going to unravel. We'd be talking about Russell Wilson's future with a franchise. And that hasn't happened at all. Like, they've come on strong in the way that we just expect Seattle teams to come on strong. It's been shocking to me. And again, I think they're really frightening for anybody else in the NFC. Good nugget from ESPN. Stats and Info. Russell has a league high, 13 touchdowns to zero interceptions when defenses blitz him. It's the sign of a big quarterback, man. Yeah, yeah.

And this is the development, the evolution we thought we were going to have. And, you know, I've sort of the analogy I gave a couple of years ago that people do remind me that I made. And because it actually is one of the takes that aged well, it's kind of like a, because it's Seattle, Wilson's kind of like Dave Grohl and that he just switched. he just switched roles. I mean, he was a completely different quarterback when he needed to be in 2012.

And as, you know, that 2016 season where basically the talent was such that he was starting to have to be the offense. And then 2017 and now 2018, I mean, you watch the end of the game today and you just see he can take over a game. He is an elite elite quarterback. So in like 2013, who was Kurt Cobain then?

Was it Earl Thomas? It was Legion of Boom. It was all of the Legion of Boom. They were all, they all combined for it. And I guess I don't know what Marcheon was in that space. Chris Nova Selich. I guess. He was in different.

Marshall was in a different band. Marshall was Pearl Jam. All right. So any other teams that you want to mention here? Any of the other world card teams that you feel like to check out? I want to mention the San Diego. Los Angeles Chargers. Keep it in Craig.

Keep it in Craig. I want to mention the Los Angeles Chargers because, because, The X factor in all of this over the past couple of weeks, we've been talking about Joey Bosa. Joy Bosa has come back now. Did you see his sack against Andre Smith, where it looked like Andre Smith forgot he was playing football? Yeah, that's what happens when Joey Bosa's on the field.

That stuff tends to go down. I also think it's an Andre Smith problem. That's fair. That's also fair. So one of my deep fears in football, I always think I would just forget sometimes to run the play because I would just get distracted. You just stand there. Yeah.

Yeah, and I would just stand there. I think that's what happened to Andre Smith. I mean, Joey Bosa can kind of lure you into that. He's entrancing. You know what? I wasn't hugely impressed by. Philip Rivers completion streak. I love Philip Rivers.

Love Philip Rivers. Love Philip Rivers. This is a pro-Philip Rivers podcast. You know whose record he broke to start the game? I actually don't. Brady had something like that. Well, no. So to start a game, he surpassed

washed Washington Redskin Mark Brunel. Wow. And then I think overall, overall the record he set was previously Ryan Tanna Hills. Yeah, so it's not that great of a record. It's not exactly a lead company. It's not a bad record. I'm not angry at the record.

I'm just saying there are better records. He was fantastic today, though. Of course it is. Last week was just, he has those. Every single year, you're going to have that one river's game where it's like, God damn it. Like, why?

Like, why does this happen? I mean, he's playing an MVP level, but every once in a while, you're going to have that Broncos game from last week. But then he's going to come back and do this because he's been phenomenal all season. And I completely agree with you.

I think of all the potential wildcard teams, that Chargers team is the one that has a shot, has a legitimate chance to go knock somebody off. The other ones, I wouldn't feel very confident about it. Yeah. I mean, I think that what we're seeing now is the effects, and we've talked about it for a year now, the effects of going all in,

the Eagles model and the Patriots model. I mean, those are two different models, but they both are a really good way to get to the Super Bowl. And unless you have a really full roster right now, unless you have one through 46, one of the best rosters in football, you don't have a shot at the Super Bowl.

So what we're talking about when we talk about these wild card teams are the teams that are not all in, teams are sort of a half-notch below or worse, the top 14. Yeah, one foot in one foot out. These are, these are not the teams that said we're going to win the Super Bowl in 2018. And, you know, what's interesting, I think is the Vikings, they're not super all in, but they're, they should be. They should be up and up there. And right now they're not. And I think Sunday night was a step in the right direction. I still don't see them breaking into that. They're probably the, if there was an NFC Chargers, kind of what I alluded to earlier, which is a team that if they improved a couple of areas would be. with the elite. I would say it's Minnesota, but I still don't see that. Do you? So let's talk about that. Let's get to stock up and stock down. And I'll start with stock up.

and let's talk about the Vikings because this is a big win for them. I mean, I feel like with this one, they have a inside track to get one of those wild card spots. And I think the issue or the question with Minnesota is Robert May is just calling the NFC North. That's that's not what I mean. I'm just saying I think one of those teams in the NFC North will probably get one of the wild cards. And I agree. With Minnesota, it's been like this all season. Their offensive line is such a problem, but the defense is starting to come on. And I feel like that is the key to what the Vikings can do from here on out and in the playoffs. You know, we didn't really talk about it much because it's Trubisky. So it was one of those things where people weren't impressed. But they've had

a really nice three to four week run. And I think it's really starting to come together. I mean, they have a ton of talent on that defense. And they're not that banged. It's more so that it was a mysterious level of play for the first essentially like six to seven weeks of the year. So if they can figure it out on that side of the ball, I have a lot of confidence that they can at least give one of these NFC playoff teams, one of these NFC contenders, a hard time. Okay. So if you're looking at just going into Los Angeles, okay, for the divisional round, do you want to be the Vikings or the Bears? The Bears. Okay.

Just because of the defense. Yeah. I mean, they have the best defense in the league. Yes. Okay. Okay. I don't know the answer to that right now.

I'd still rather than the defense. I don't. I don't, only because, I mean, if it's November 27th or whatever it is, yeah, I'd want to be the Bears.

I just don't know what the Vikings final product was like. I mean, that offense tonight was pretty darn impressive. I mean, I know that they only scored what, they finished 24 points, but I mean, I think Cousins had over 10 yards.

net adjust yards per attempt today. And that's the second time he's done it this season. I mean, I just think that there's just, that offense is not, there's some familiarity with DiPilippo that's just going to grow and it's going to get better in December. And I can see that team being really good in week 17.

I can too. I just think when we're talking about them versus the bears, I like that matchup, just because the Vikings' number one weakness is their offensive line. And if they're playing a team of the pass rush, they're in trouble. But with the right matchup,

if you're going against a defense that's not that scary, doesn't get after the quarterback, I absolutely think they're dangerous. I mean, Cousins has been really good this year. Both of those receivers, and like we talked about, if the defense figures it out, they 100% can push one of these contenders to the brink.

I truly believe that. Aaron Rogers had 198 yards tonight. That's what I'm saying, man. This defense has come on over the last three to four weeks. And if they figure it out, and by week 17, it's, I don't know, 82% of the Vikings defense we saw last season, that's real.

That is a team you do not want to play. Steve Palazzoa from Football Focus had a stat tonight. I don't know if you saw it. Do you see the Rogers throwaway stat? No. Aaron Rogers has 47 throwaways this season. Okay. Drew Breeze has 82 total incompletions.

That's insane. I mean, I think that says more about Breeze than it does Rogers throwing the ball. way. Well, no, I mean, Rogers is lapping the field in throwaways this season. And that's probably due to a number of things. But it's, it is very, very interesting to me. What's happened to the Packers?

They are done. They have five games to go. They're out of this race. Would you agree? Yes. I mean, I think this is over. Yeah, I totally agree. And when you say this, you mean what?

This era. I mean, this is, it's time. It's time for them. to start over and figure out what they're going to do to get the most out of Rogers last, I don't know, five seasons, if we're being optimistic. He signed a four-year extension. Sure. I mean, it's over $20 million in dead money through 2021.

Yeah, so three to four years. I mean, they need to do whatever they can to make that stretch worth it. And I think that 100% includes a new coach and an entire. new approach with the entire staff. Who do you target? I don't know. We were talking about it a little bit today. I mean, you probably want...

I don't know. It could be as simple as hiring sort of a good assistant in the NFL, sort of a very normy mainstream hire that's not going to offend anybody. And then hiring an outside the box play caller. You know, someone like a Cliff Kingsbury, something like that. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't think you can, I don't think Jeff. Tedford would come from Fresno State to be a play caller, but maybe someone in that ilk

that you can get, you know, Aaron Rogers loves Jeff Tedford, maybe someone who's Tedford adjacent, maybe not a Kingsbury type, but maybe somebody like that where you're getting Rogers more comfortable with, you know, an offense that, and that's Aaron Rogers can obviously run any offense, but he's obviously gone out of his way to praise the Cal system he grew up in. So maybe, you know, you look somewhere in that way? I don't know. I mean, I think you, one of the things I would do, they were, you know, obviously it's been written about

that Rogers was not happy that they dismissed Alex Van Pelt. I'm not saying you bring Van Pelt back. What I am saying is that you ask Aaron Rogers what the hell he wants because you're not getting anywhere unless you have a happy and fulfilled Aaron Rogers. And I would sit him down and say, what offense do you want to run? And I'd go from there.

Yeah, I understand that. I also think that he'd be happy in a good offense. You know, it's one of those things where if they're scoring 35 points a game and it's forward thinking and creative, he's going to be enjoying himself. So while he should have input, yeah, I mean, that's pretty hard to do. I mean, that's, you can't just go find 35 points somewhere. But I'm saying, like, with a guy like Kingsbury, like if that were to happen, even if it's not necessarily in Roger's mind exactly what he wants out of an offense, if they're successful, I think that he's probably going to be amenable to it.

Man, remember when Norm Chow came to the NFL and absolutely sucked? Where was he? Tampa? Tennessee. Oh my God. I forgot about that. Who was the coach there at that time? Was it Fisher? It may have been Mike Munchak. Wow.

What a glorious stretch for the Tennessee Titans. It may have been Fisher. Let's just move on and I'll... I'm going to go on a Norm Chow deep dive and I'll get back to you. I think it was 05 to 07, so it was... So speaking of... Let me tell you something here, okay? All I see on Wikipedia is that the Titans

went eight and eight in 2006, and I think we, that's all I need to know about who was the head coach then. Yeah. It speaks for itself. All right. So speaking of terrible head coaches, stock up Baker Mayfield and the Cleveland Browns. I mean, I don't know how much it was kind of an FU to Hugh, but I definitely think there was some of that in the way the Browns played today. Well, I mean, obviously, they're not going to try any harder because they hate Hugh Jackson. But I think that did you so there was a very chilly reception after the after the game you saw that I'm sure yes yeah okay okay and so then Mayfield admitted to the media afterwards this is from mary k cab but he did not like jackson defecting to the bangle so soon so it wasn't necessarily if you if the players are to be

believed and i will believe them it wasn't necessarily about his poor coaching or whatever i'm sure that had something to do with it but it was more about him just immediately crossing the line and and becoming a Bengals coach. It's a really weird situation. Also, what's he doing for that? What is he doing for the Bengals? He's like some weird defensive assistant. I don't think he's doing that.

I don't know, man. He's on the sideline. Like, he's definitely doing something. Baker Mayfield, since Hugh Jackson was fired, he's from Graham Barfield. Do you know what his past writing is? Probably like 115.

It's a hundred and 229.5. The only person better since Hugh Jackson was fired as Drew Brees. The only thing that I'm worried about when it comes to this is they're good enough and Freddie Kitchens does such a good job

that by the end of the season, they're like, maybe we'll keep him on. That's the only kind of unfortunate outcome. Freddie Kitchens or Greg Williams? Kitchens. Well, this is like a Jim Bob Cooter thing

with Matt Stafford. Yes. And I don't want that. I want them to go get whatever it is, a Lincoln Riley, obviously not Kingsbury, but somebody like that. I want them to have a hot coordinator candidate to work with Mayfield. I do not want Freddie Kitchens to have Baker with 120 pass rating over five games and then suddenly the has them. So they're like, eh, you know what?

This works. Let's keep doing this. That is not a good outcome. I will take Baker Mayfield looking awesome right now and we'll deal with it later. He's going to be really good, man. He's going to be really, really good. I tweeted it today. I was like, he's going to be really good.

And people are like, he's already really good. It's like, no. I mean, when he actually gets a coach and an infrastructure and a system, like this is shades of what he's eventually going to be. This is not the guy that he can eventually become as a quarterback. It is much, much better than this. I will say that we, the coach probably matters with him more than anybody else right now, among the young quarterbacks.

Would you agree? It's so easy to. make him bad. No, because we just need, I just think that the, the putting him in the pocket, I wasn't, John Dorson, I've talked about this a lot. His release is really quick. If you want to just have him do stepbacks, fine, whatever. But I just think that you put him with the right play callers.

Is that who we're talking about? Even if you want to just give a blank check to Lincoln Riley, I think the ceiling is so high there with creativity. I mean, almost in the same way that, that Mahomes and Reed were perfect. There's a, there's a universe in which Mayfield. and blank coach is perfect. I don't necessarily know if that's true with the Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen.

I tend to think that it's close. With Rosen especially, I think that if he gets the right guy and if they decide to start over, I think he can be really good. It's been one of the themes of the entire season, man. Just the idea that coaches matter for every quarterback. Like, how you bolster your quarterback

and how you lift him up has defined this NFL season. And that's why I'm extremely excited see what the Browns end up doing. Like, what are they going to give Baker and what can he become? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's the biggest decision they've been in a long time. Oh, yeah. And that's saying something because they have a top five pick every year. After choosing to pick Baker, this is the biggest decision that they're going to make in a decade

in terms of who's going to be the guy to leave this franchise. Well, they made about 10 decisions not to draft a quarterback for like five years. It worked out, though. We've discussed this. All right. Last stock up here. Let's talk about Drew Breeze a little bit. I know that game was on Thursday,

but we've kind of alluded to this in our last couple of shows. I want to play a little game. And the game is conceived mostly because of Dan Arnold being a person. The idea that Drew Breeze is throwing touchdown passes to a guy named Dan Arnold, who I'm still not convinced as an NFL player, is very indicative of just the ability that Breeze has had over the last 12 years. years, 13 years. He's approaching Mike Shanahan levels and Shanahan's the goat, but he is approaching Mike

Shanahan levels of just absolutely screwing with your fantasy team. Oh, yeah. I mean, I have Michael Thomas. And the fact that Drew Brees through four touchdown passes on Thursday and Michael Thomas did absolutely nothing is extremely frustrating. But, I mean, it's crazy. His ability to just conjure receivers out of nowhere is nuts. So with that in mind, I want to do something where I'm going to list off three names, and you have to tell me which of those names has not caught a touchdown pass from Drew Breeze since 2006.

So Saints Era Drew Breeze. Okay. All right. John Gilmore, Eric Johnson. Okay. T.J. Fuller. Which one is not? Yes.

John Gilmore did not. John Gilmore is a real person. Okay. He caught one touchdown pass from Drew Brees in 2011. Oh, man. All right. Ready? This is terrible.

Let's go again. Ready? Okay. Okay. I thought T.J. Fuller, I think I thought it was maybe T.J. Duckett. That's fair.

T.J. Fuller is a fake name that I just made up. No, I know. I actually thought T.J. Fuller was the most real of those three. All right. Here we go. Billy Miller? Joe Morgan. Chris Harris.

Chris Harris. that is correct. Billy Miller caught three touchdowns and Joe Morgan caught three touchdowns. I remember Joe Morgan. Why do I remember Joe Morgan? I remember neither of those people. I remember Joe Morgan the baseball player and Billy Miller, the baseball player.

Both of those guys have names professional baseball players. I remember Joe Morgan as a saint. I don't know why that was. Yeah, I definitely don't. All right, one more. Ready? Yep. Jamal Jones, Eric Lourig, Tyler Murphy.

I actually I interviewed Eric Lourg because he went on a trip to Turkey to teach women football with Marshawn Lynch So that's not fair

It's I'm sorry dude So this one you got This is so it's it's Tyler Murphy It is Tyler Murphy That is correct Since Drew Breez got to New Orleans 53 different people Have caught a touchdown pass

It's nuts Like the idea of the nine people You named Of the nine people you named But I still think TJ4 is the most real one, even though you made him up. Yeah, I mean, that's where we're at right now.

I mean, if you told me that Dan Arnold was a dude that Breeze met while he was shopping at Walmart, he's like, ah, that guy's got a nice frame. I would believe it. I absolutely would believe it. That's where we are. Eric Lourke has joined the NBA program at Wharton School, where he is in Cluster 3 and is set to graduate in May 2020, according to Wikipedia. I don't know what Cluster 3 means, but good for him.

I don't. It's probably something that means something to Wharton. All right, before we move on, let's take a quick break. Here at the Ringer NFL show, we talk a lot about football. But why do we call ourselves a show if you aren't actually watching us? It doesn't matter. What does matter is when it comes to watching NFL football, you never have to miss a game with the Yahoo Sports Mobile app.

That's because the Yahoo Sports Mobile app lets you watch local and primetime NFL games live on your phone. Tune into your favorite teams and the biggest NFL matchups, wherever and whenever you want all NFL season long. So download the Yahoo Sports. mobile app and watch NFL football at the tap of an app. Now, back to the show. Yeah, that does sound weird. All right, let's get to stock down. The Jacksonville Jaguars, man. I mean, could this have gone any worse? This is season from hell. Roger Sherman, our beloved colleague, made this point this week, today, rather, and I can't stop thinking about it. It's that Jalen Ramsey blessed

us with the gift of talking so much trash than being bad to where, Now they just put the quotes up every single game. And then they have the performance next to it. So now we have, and this was a meme all day today, just all of the Josh Allen stuff. And then the quotes. And then Josh Allen, you know, celebrating wildly because he beat Jail and Ramsey. The Jaguars lost a game in which the opposing quarterback was 8 of 19. Just as far as how we talked about him, I'm really glad Josh Allen is winning games.

Good for him. I'm serious. Good for him. He's like a low-grade Brian Schottenheimer. He had 99 yards rushing in this game. Yeah. I mean, it's ridiculous, like, watching this Jaguar's team right now. And we talked about this a little bit on Thursday in the sense of teams being able to repeat.

But I think the Jags are indicative of it in a slightly different way in the sense that championship windows are impossibly small. Well, especially if you're using free agency to, build them. Yes. It's just so, so hard to maintain success unless you have a really good quarterback and a really good head coach and just the infrastructure and the franchise. Yes, that and as we've talked about, if you hit on a massive cluster of draft picks, like the Seahawks did at the beginning of this decade or the Saints have now, I mean, like you really, if you're going out and building a defense, going out and getting Malik Jackson for a lot of money, Clayas Campbell for a lot of money. AJ Boyer for a lot of money. Even guys like Barry Church. This is,

Barry Church was not a fourth round pick who's making $600,000 a year this year. I mean, like, over the last two years, they've spent a lot of money and those bills become due. And we're seeing that now. It's really hard to have a sustained window when there's just not a lot of cap dollars to go around. Yeah. And it's a health thing. We shot about that last week, just the idea that you have a shot. And I think that. that last year was the Jaguar shot. It was very realistic for them to win the Super Bowl last season. And everything broke right.

They were extremely healthy. Their defense was complete. And they didn't do it, and now it's over. And part of me is a little bit concerned because we made this comparison two weeks ago on the show, just the idea that the bears are very similar to last year's Jaguars. And it's just one of those things where you like to think that building a franchise and building a team is linear. You know, you ascend on a very consistent plane. In reality, that's just not true. And I think that we've seen that with so many teams this year and the

Jags are the best example. So I have a thought, Robert Mayes. I'm listening. One of the things I think is really interesting about the first Seahawks run is that they were the first post-CBA sort of mini-dynasty run. And it's certainly in the NFC. You know, NFC West, they had the division titles, they made the Super Bowl. Non-Patriots. The first, like, non-Patriots mini-dainerun. Well, no, no, no. I mean, like, the Patriots, I'm talking about

after 2011, sort of everybody, I'm not talking about before that, I'm talking about after that. So, yeah, but I'm saying they sustain success in a way that every other franchise except the Patriots did not. But what I'm saying is Tom Brady was drafted in 1999. Everybody who was, essentially everybody who was a part of the, of

the Seahawks sort of run there was drafted in 2010, 2011, or 2012. So they were all sort of post-CBA babies except some of the 2010 guys, right? And so the point I'm trying to make is, like, you can look at those teams and learn a lot about how, what the life cycles are of teams that hit on a lot of draft picks. They're going to have hall famers that come out of there. They had, you know, the quarterback was making less than a long snapper, the year they won the Super Bowl, all of that stuff, which is built this, this sort of juggernaut in the NFC for

a couple of years. okay. And so I kind of look at the Jaguars as what happens now in this new era of cap spending as what can happen sort of the first test case. I guess that's the way to look at it. The Seahawks were a test case in how to view a team where all of a bunch of superstars were cost controlled for four years and they signed pretty good extensions and they were able to still sustain it for five years. okay. And I'm looking at the Jaguars as a different type of test case where they were a free agent base team in an era where the cap was rising $10 million every year. The cap says I think $60 million since 2013. And what we're finding out is you really only have two or three years

to get that Super Bowl or you're done. I mean, there's just not a lot of caps a case to go around. And so I'm looking at the Jaguars very closely because I just don't think we understand how rare what they've done is where you're just stacking star on star on star at different positions where you've thrown so much money at one position group. I mean, you've talked about it before. That's the most expensive position group, the defensive line, basically in the history of football. Yeah, I mean, they're the first free agent contender in this era of the CBA. And I think that test case is a very good way to put it. we've learned a lot about how sustainable, how replicable, how long a team like that can last. And the answer is not very.

I mean, I'm not surprised that this has happened. I'm surprised the fall off has been this drastic. That's what I'll say. Last thing on this game. So that's the Joe and Ramsey thing. Did you see that Josh Allen had the most air yards per throw of any quarterback today in the last three years? He completed eight of them, so that makes sense. Yeah, he's just crushing it.

He's just Dan Fouts now. All right. Let's keep going with stock down. The Cincinnati Bengals, man. We were chatting about it a little bit in Slack. If this was any other franchise, their head coach would be fired tomorrow. Like, it's embarrassing. If there were any other franchise, they wouldn't be leaking.

They might hire Hugh Jackson. What if, I mean, let's unpack that for two seconds. It's the craziest idea in the history of the world. It would be the worst decision in the history of professional football. And I'm not kidding. Who leaked that? In what world do you want that out there? So Joe Posnanski years ago, after Eric Manjini was fired, wrote a piece about whether or not the Eric Mangini Cleveland Higher was just the worst hire was just the worst hire.

And so I think about that sometimes. Like, what was just the worst hire? The absolute worst hire, everyone knew would be a disaster. and it was. And the Hugh Jackson to Cincinnati would be A number one, probably forever. That decision should go into Canton as the hallmark of bad football decisions. He is objectively the worst head coach in NFL history by record. In what world does he deserve another chance?

I mean, how that got out into just the atmosphere and into the media is fascinating to me. where it started, who thought it was a real thing, I want to know everything about how that rumor came to exist. It just feels like they're going to fire Marv. They have to. And I don't know. This is just a franchise that I have such little faith in their ability to make the right choices moving forward. I mean, we've, in my lifetime as an adult, all I've known is the Marv Lewis Bengals.

And now I don't know what's going to happen. So Marvin Lewis is a good coach that is written. in stone, he turned around the Bengals, but they have to move on. The Browns ended a 25-game road losing streak, and they had not won back-to-back games in 64 straight games. That's incredible. I mean, that's almost impossible. It's, oh, my God. Let's put a button on this, just Bengals, Browns in general.

I don't have any faith in where the Bengals are going. I'm pretty excited about the Browns. This team did not need to win this many games this year. all things considered with the huge stuff, everything. You can see kind of the glimmers of hope there for sure. All right. Let's one more stock down. And let's go with the Pittsburgh Steelers because I would say after that Carolina game,

just the general discourse about the Steelers was, all right, here we go. Like here they come. They're 100% in that contender conversation with the Rams, you know, the chiefs, everybody else. And their last two games have been extremely. disheartening. I mean, not at all encouraging. Are we worried about the Steelers or do you feel like by the end of the season, they're going to win that division and no matter what they look like right now,

there's still going to be a team that can knock somebody off in the playoffs. I'm not worried because I never really put them, even though they had the two seed coming into Sunday. I never put them in that upper upper echelon. They are returning. See, I did. That's why I'm so disappointed. Yeah. After that Carolina game, I did. I never really was all that jazzed up about the Steelers. I mean, I think that their individual talent is so good that they can win any game. They can win any game. They could go in and beat New England. They could beat Kansas City.

I wouldn't be surprised. But the consistency is just such that I just, I have no faith in them from one week to the next. And you see what I... They're all over the place. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, they're just all over the place. You never know what you're getting. And I think that's a lot of Rathlisberger.

They had 527 yards and 25 first downs today and lost, to a fairly bad Broncos team that's on the way to getting their coach fired. But they had four turnovers, and two of those were essentially at the goal line. Okay. So I just, it was, it was not a game that made a whole lot of sense. It was just a classic Steelers, I don't know, egg.

They laid an egg. They do this. Yeah, kind of a lot. They do this. I mean, they come back from that Carolina game, and they usually have one game, like the Jacksonville game last week. Watching them play two of those games in a row,

that's kind of new. That's a little bit different, and that's why I'm starting to not be concerned, but I'm starting to think about how good this team actually is. Are they in this conversation with the best teams in the NFL? And I would have said, definitely two weeks ago, now I'm starting to have my doubts. They're almost like the Vikings of the AFC,

where I actually feel good about their ability to compete with some of the operational, on teams, but every, like, third game, they just confuse the hell out of you to the point. I don't even want to watch them. They're more complete to me than Minnesota is because they're not as banged up. I mean, that offense is very good. I think they're in the same ballpark.

I think they're better. I think their ceiling is higher just because Brown, juju, you know, what Connor has given them, again, the line. For me, it's all about what Rathusberger is going to show up. Is he going to throw two or three picks in a huge game or is he going to be the guy we saw against Carolina? and I ultimately think that's going, like, that's going to be what defines their season. Are we going to see that guy that we saw against the Panthers or are we going to see the guy

that's throwing two to three interceptions a game? Right, but the fact that you can't answer that question has been the problem with the Steelers for a number of years. Yes, that's exactly the problem. So, nothing has really changed about them. You know, their defense has kind of figured it out over the last, you know, five or six weeks after being a disaster at the beginning. And the offense is what it is.

We know it very well. So nothing about them has been surprised. surprising necessarily. They've just been a little bit frustrating. I guess that's what I'd say. All right. Let's get to the challenge flags for this week. Mine is very simple.

Two weeks in a row, the Colts have thrown passes to Andrew Luck. I love the Colts. I love what Frank Reich has done. I think they're a really entertaining team. I think they're going to be very good for years to come. Pretty much every decision that they've made over the last six months to a year has been excellent. Andrew Luck missed an entire season with a shoulder injury.

He doesn't get sacked. He doesn't get hit anymore because of the offense and the offensive line. Why are they throwing him passes? Stop. Stop throwing the ball to your quarterback that missed an entire season with a shoulder injury. What is the upside? Why is this happening? Just let him play offense.

It's twice in two weeks, he hit the ground hard. Today was getting hit. And last week, it was diving for a ball in the end zone. let's cancel that. It's just not necessary and especially with the guy who is your franchise. It's one of the dumbest trends

of November 2018. Just stop. Just don't do it. The guy's throwing three touchdowns a game. Just run your offense. My favorite thing now is now you can just double down because now it just seems so unlikely

they're going to do it next week that it's going to be wide open. Yeah, exactly. He's going to walk into the end zone and I'm going to look like a moron. But even still, It's process over results. I object to it as an idea.

All right, what's yours? The chargers need to fold. In what sense? They played a team today that didn't have a large traveling fan base, and there were just massive amounts of empty seats. What are we doing here? What's going to happen when they... I obviously don't mean they should fold.

Can we get them somewhere else? Can we put them somewhere else? I mean, you heard those kind of reports from the owner's meetings that... Right, but now they're just committed to L.A. long term and what are they going to do when they play in a massive stadium in Englewood? I don't know. I mean, it's one of those things where, you know, we make jokes about it and the idea that it's full of cheese fans, whatever. But when I heard that report that the league was starting to get concerned just because they didn't have any faith in their viability,

I think that's when it became real. And we're going to see what happens. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if they explored a different option. I would bet on them staying in L.A. They didn't explore people coming to their games. That's fair. I mean, it sucks.

I mean, you know how I feel about that team. I think they're super fun. I love the talent. And the idea that they, you know, if a football team,

you know, wins in a forest and no way's there to hear it. I mean, it's one of those things. I mean, it's unfortunate. Everything about kind of

their move to L.A. compared to what the Rams have kind of built themselves. It's not shocking. And you're considering that the Rams had a built-in fan base in Los Angeles

already. they're in a super exciting team, all that. But it sucks. I mean, it's watching that team play in an empty soccer stadium is not fun. Hey, one more thing. There's a really good Seahawks cornerback named Trey Flowers. Which Trey Flowers has to change his name? Because there's two really good young players named Trey Flowers now,

and one of them's got to make the move. It confused the hell out of me when I was watching that Seahawks game. I was like, really, we're going to have two Trey Flowers? Is Trey their real names? It appears that Trey the Seahawks player's name is Triciel. And Trey Flowers, the Patriots one, is named Robert. This is actually very funny. His name is Robert Lee Flowers the third.

Yeah. My name is Robert Lee Mays the third. This is a miracle. That's really funny. I did not know that. I mean, that's how it works with thirds. It's Tripp or Trey or. whatever. I managed to escape that, but otherwise, otherwise you'd be a star NFL player.

Yeah, that's exactly right. That's really fun. I have a, I have a second challenge, I have a second challenge flag that's, that's related to these two things. Give it to me. Why did the NFL let the Seahawks get another really good six foot three cornerback? Yeah, we just shouldn't allow that to happen. In the fifth round. It should be a Chris Paul sort of thing. Like, what is this? Like, what the entire league saw the six foot three corner who can play. And they were like, yeah, we should probably draft them. But instead we're going to let the Seahawks get him in the fifth round and turn them

into a pro bowler because that's what they do with six foot three cornerbacks. It's the post-type six-foot three cornerback, though. It didn't work for a little while. So now that Seahawks can just pick them off because teams are a little bit more than ransom of it. Maybe the Seahawks intentionally tanked it for a couple of years. There it is. Just to bring it back.

Let's do tomorrow's headlines very quickly. What do you think people are going to be talking about in a couple days? So we've done this like four times, but I really do think that the Mike McCarthy thing is going to ratchet up a little bit. I think coaching firings in general are going to be the story of this week, whether it's Marvin Lewis or Mike McCarthy or whatever. I think that kind of the fervor around those choices and the names that are going to replace them, that's going to be the biggest story in the league because the games were not interesting this week. Yeah, I also think that just the idea that players are declaring for the draft, we're going to, start to hear a little bit more about that. And then there's so many teams that have removed themselves from contention by being terrible,

that we're going to start to have sort of quarterback watch 2019 as far as the draft goes and sort of early sort of informed mock draft season, I guess you could say. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, we kind of started talking about it last week. We were chatting about what teams might trade up. So, yeah, that makes sense. Well, no, we started talking about it in September when you unleashed Justin Herbert is too tall to be a good quarterback.

I still believe it. All right. That's all we got for this week. guys. As always, really appreciate it. We'll be back on Thursday. And thank you for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.