The Ringer NFL Show - Who Are the Actual Teams to Beat? | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 369)

Episode Date: December 20, 2018

The Rams, Saints, and Patriots no longer look like juggernauts, so who does? (0:30) Cancel the Pro Bowl and send Larry Fitzgerald to the Patriots on this week's Take Shop (17:30), plus the three biggest games of the week, the Browns' coaching situation, and personal Pro Bowlers (26:30). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do you wish most for this holiday? If you're like me, you want all Ws for your favorite NFL team. Unfortunately, even Santa can't make that happen. But the Yahoo Sports Mobile app can make it so you can watch those games and more right on your phone. In fact, with the Yahoo Sports mobile app, you can watch live, local, and primetime NFL games during the holidays and all season long. Never miss big matchups or your favorite team in action. What are you waiting for?

Download the Yahoo Sports Mobile app. And may all your football wishes come true, unless, of course, your team is playing the Bears. Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays. Joy, as always, by Kevin Clark. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. It's almost the holiday season, but as Bill Belichick said this week,

Christmas comes in an opportune time for all of us. So it never really feels like the holidays. No, it doesn't. It's almost Christmas time. It's everyone is sick time, me included. You can probably hear my sniffles right now. I'm not sick. Good for you, buddy.

I'm very proud of you. The best ability is available. Yeah, I'm never sick. The point of the training room is to get out of the training room. Yeah, I usually just one kind of dip in the hot tub and I'm ready to go and it just hasn't been that way this week. But we're going to power through here. And we're going to start off this show by kind of revisiting who the actual teams to beat in the NFL are. Because I feel like if we had done this a month ago, maybe even about a month I'd say.

We probably would have said the four weeks ago. Yeah, I mean, not a long time ago, no matter where the cutoff is, I think we would say the four teams to beat in the league were probably the Rams, the Saints, the Chiefs, and the Patriots. Well, and we put the Patriots in there as sort of a lifetime achievement award. Yeah, of course, but still, we did it. And we legislated the Pats on Sunday Night Show, so we don't have to get into them quite as much. But if you look at those four teams, three of them lost this week, and one of them looked pretty terrible on Monday Night's show. football against a Cam Newton-led team where Cam Newton cannot actually play and we just shut down for the season. So we don't want to be overly reactionary here. I just want to kind of look at the

landscape of the league and ask two questions. One, are we missing anyone that should jump some of those teams? And two, is this more of a wide open field than we probably gave it credit for? I mean, I would say that Monday night game, Thanksgiving is when we pretty much said this is it, this is the standard. And are there more teams that are going to win a Super Bowl this year than we originally thought? Now, let's back up here because he said we don't want to be overly reactionary. Now, I think you can afford to be a little reactionary in this way. These teams played perfect football for 10 weeks. In many cases, they only lost to each other.

each other. Yeah. It was like a SEC or something where it was just like Alabama. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It was a class above everything else. It was defined. They just lost to each other.

They were pasted the other guys. And they're not playing like that. So it's not about we're going to panic because it's a bad three weeks. It's that these teams were absolutely perfect and now they're not and what happens next. That's fascinating to me because I'm starting to look at the Saints right now. Last three weeks, Drew Brees, who was completely. leading 80% of his passes at one point who looked like the most efficient

quarterback, maybe he was going to have the most efficient season ever. His quarterback rating. Surefire MVP. Oh yeah. Well, well, well, one of them been playing great, but he was the favorite. Rivers, Rivers wasn't even in the conversation. Exactly. Prohibitive favorite. So do you know what his quarterback rating is? And quarterback ratings are flawed out, but it's a pretty good indicator.

Last three weeks. Do you know what his quarterback rating is? Combined? Last three weeks. 85. 75. Wow. He has three interceptions and that. spanpoint, he had two the first 11 weeks of the season. Okay. So you just start to worry what the hell is going on there. Now, the Rams. He has yet to top 203 yards over the last month. Yes. He went full

Dalton on us. Since November 18th, he has not thrown for more than 203 yards in the game. Okay, listen. He's pivoting to Dalton. Listen, it's never a good content strategy. The Rams. We've talked about this a couple of times. How sometimes you don't know. know who the MVP is until they're removed from the lineup. Okay? Last year, Earl Thomas left the Seahawks. The defense forgot how to play football. Aaron Rogers, whenever he does not play for the Green Bay Packers,

they look like one of the worst teams in the NFL. That has been historically proven over the past five, six, seven years. Who's making that kind of MVP case this year, Mr. Cooper Cup? I understand that theory. I think that their problems go a little bit. deeper than losing Cooper Cup. Hey, dude, I'm just talking about Jenga pieces here. She's like, hey, all I know is,

after you lost Cooper Cup, it's gone down hill. There's a couple of things. Number one, Evan Silvest had this today. The pressure rate for the Rams has gone up in the last three weeks from 29% to 39% which is a huge jump. And he also pointed out that, and that's not, unless Cooper Cup was just, you know, turned into Anquine Bolden all of a sudden.

I don't think his blocking had anything to do with it. now beyond 20 yards in that time span golf is two of 13 for zero touchdowns three picks 59 yards I I am vaguely tongue-in-cheek about the Cooper Cup thing obviously the pressure rate has nothing do with it but something is wrong and it's the same thing with the saints I don't know if its defense is figuring it out I sort of am very cautious on people saying that because I just think you know, I've said this a million times. There's no defense for a well, for a perfect pass. That's, that's coaches have been saying that for 60 years.

There's, there's no defense against Drew Brees at his best. And I tend to think that about the Rams. So something is just wrong where they're not at their best. So the Cooper Cup thing is fine. And I think that he does help them. And he's their slot guy and he runs a lot of those shorter routes. Robert Woods has kind of stepped into that role. And Reynolds has moved outside.

To me, the bigger issue with the Rams is over the last thing, three weeks, Jared Goff has used play action on 24.3% of his passes. Yeah. At one point this year, it was almost 40%. Maybe Cooper Cup was the guy reminding everyone to run play action. Yeah, maybe that was it. So over the course of most of the season, it was about 39%. Now it's down to 24.3.

They were far and away the most dramatic play action team in the NFL for the first half of the season. Over this stretch, the last three games, golf ranks 15th in the NFL. On non-play action throws, he's completed 56% of his passes with one touchdown to five interceptions over the last three weeks. They've gone away from what's made them really good. And they've had to do it by necessity in a lot of ways. More third downs, everything else. So I think that their problems are a little bit more fundamental than Cooper Cup.

Although I do think the Cooper Cup is a very useful player. I will concede that to you. Maybe that's the fiery leader of the team. Maybe that's what we're missing. I don't know. Have you ever talked to Cooper Cup? I'm not sure he's the fiery leader of him. anything. He seems like a nice man, but I'm not sure he's the emotional core of what the

Rams got going. He's quite a smart dude. Okay, so there's a couple of things. I want to talk real quick about Aaron Donald and his impact on the game. So we'll get to some of these teams later, but Aaron Donald, I think, is one of the very few players, handful of players, who disrupts over 3% of dropbacks. That's important. But I was talking to, I did a story on the ringer.com about analytics that ran on Wednesday. And in the process of talking to Neil Hornbyn, and he was saying that PFF has Bobby Wagner is more valuable than Aaron Donald.

I said, why is that? Neil Horn, by the way, found a probable focus. And he said, because teams have figured out that there's just a pretty easy way to neutralize Aaron Donald, just get rid of the ball. Do you know when Aaron Donald was single-teamed against the Chicago Bears,

the average time it took for Mitch Trubisky to throw the ball? Just guess. 0.8 seconds. 1.5 seconds. But he wasn't a single team very often. No, but that's the other way that you can neutralize him. Is to double team. Yes.

Yeah, but I'm saying there's two ways to neutralize him. Double team him, which creates problems elsewhere, or just single team him and get the ball out as soon as you possibly can. Absolutely. But double team team doesn't create as many problems elsewhere with the Rams as it does for most teams. Yeah. Because you don't have to worry about those guys on the edge for the most part.

they do not have four threatening pass rushers on the field at any time and whatever you think of Dante Fowler is fine but there's a reason they had to trade for him mid-season and there's a reason he was available. The Rams edge rushers were the weakness of this team outside. Because he just got a bunch of practice fights? Well, he just wasn't a very good player. He's not necessary.

And that's their issue is that coming into the season, the two spots on that team that people were worried about, edge rusher and move linebacker. We should have been worried about corner, I guess, but that was not anybody's mind or anybody's radar in August. And I feel like that is what teams have started to figure out. Not only is not anybody's radar. We thought that was their strength.

Yes, the strength of the defense. So now we've reached this point where I think that overall teams are saying to the Rams, we're going to make you beat us this way. And it's by running the ball and not biting on any of those fakes and motions and everything else. And it's by daring the other guys on that front four to end up beating you with the rush, and they haven't been able to do either one, and I think that's why they've struggled. So let's flip this on its head. We're talking about the teams that maybe aren't as bulletproof as we thought.

Who's getting up there that we were not thinking about a month ago? There's obvious candidates. I mean, I probably was thinking about them a month ago. I'm not sure everyone else was. You've been thinking about them for five years. I think the Chargers look really good. And I feel like they've gotten better as the season's going on. They haven't lost anybody of note outside of Denzel.

El Paraman, really. I mean, for the most part, they're healthy. Their offensive line has been intact the whole season. We'll see what happens with Keenan Allen. They lose Melvin Gordon for a couple games, but we've talked about this a million times. How important is that? He's going to be back this week. I think that team is one to reckon with.

And even outside of which teams have ascended and which teams have gotten into that conversation, I feel like even if you consider some of these teams outside of those four to be on the next tier, which of those teams in the next tier may be a force, maybe a team that can do something in the playoffs. And I don't know, I don't think it's crazy to put the Bears in that conversation. I don't think it's crazy to put the Steelers in that conversation if they ended up winning the division. There was a point in the season where a team like the Bears,

a team like the Steelers, a team like Seattle even, would seem such a step down from the teams that we're talking about. And now that divide just doesn't seem as drastic to me. I totally agree with you. So there's a couple of things. Number one is that I don't, and I know we're supposed to be the experts here, we spend a lot of time trying to figure out

what's going on in the NFL. After this year, and especially after the past three weeks, I don't know what matters. Because so many things. We said defense didn't matter like a month ago. But it still might not. I don't know. I have no idea.

We're through the looking guys. Trust me, I hear you, man. There's so many small things, even doing this analytic story, I did a little bit on the first and second down aggressiveness. On second down this year, NFL teams are passing for half a yard more per attempt than they were last year. That's a massive change. I mean, that's just like, I'm not even sure anyone, like over 32 teams, over thousands and thousands of passes, teams are getting a half yard more per attempt. And so I just... It changes the complexion of the game.

Without it out. Without it out. And so you just start looking at what matters. Okay, so does defense matter? I don't know. It looks like the Chicago Bears are making it matter. It looks like in some spots when they're not playing the Colts that the Dallas Cowboys are making it look like it matters. The Ravens are making it matter pretty consistently.

The Ravens have a past defense. The Saints need their defense to win games at this point. The Saints do their defense. We're going to get to that. But then just beyond that, the Texans have a terrible offensive line. Davenport has basically put Deshaun Watson in harm's way. Yes.

I mean, he's not the only culprit either. No, but he is the only person who gives up more pressures than Colton Miller, last time I checked, in the NFL. John Gruden stays killing it. It's, it's, the Texan have a bad offensive line, but again, we're about to find out. We're about to spend a month finding out what matters in 2018, and that's really exciting. My second thing I want to address is that I'm really excited if the Chargers get the one seed to see how many visiting fans there will be if they play in the AFC championship game, the Patriots or God forbid the Steelers would be a disaster?

I talked to Patmeldowny, Steelers fan Pat Medan in the way here we were talking about it. He said it was 70% Steelers fans when they just played a regular game in San Diego. The AFC championship game, yeah. And now... Oh, the Lord. If the weather's nice. And so you mentioned Houston, and that's a team I didn't even throw out there before. They probably deserves mention this conversation.

Exactly. So, if you were to just kind of do like a haphazard power ranking of these teams, just to, you know, just slap dash, let's figure it out. Would you still have the Rams, the Saints, and the Chiefs in some order at the top? Yes, only because I've seen them do it all year. I don't know. I would feel very gun-shy right now, but I don't know what's happened. We said this last week.

If the Rams can't take advantage at the Eagles defense, something is wrong. They couldn't. Something is wrong. That's what I'm saying, is that I feel like the Rams would still be in the top four to me, but I feel better right now about the charters than I do about the Rams.

Because how good can you feel about the way that Jared Golf is playing quarterback right now? and compare that to how you feel about Philip Rivers right now. That's a pretty big chasm to me. And that's why all other things being equal, and they're not equal, the Chargers offense, or excuse me, the Chargers defense is better than the Rams' offense.

I don't understand why I should feel more excited about the Rams' playoff chances than I do about the Chargers' playoff chances right now. I guess the only thing, if we get into the seating and all of that, that would be different, is that the Chargers will most likely be a wildcar team playing on the road, the Rams still will win their division and host a playoff game. But just to

vacuum, if we're just saying which of these teams is better right now, I think it's the Chargers. I don't think that's a crazy thing to say. It's a three-week span now. It's not one game for the Rams. It's true a thought experiment. The Rams against the Cowboys, the Rams against the Bears, who are you, what put percentages on how confident you are on the Rams beating both of those teams. either of those teams, like separately. I would feel better about the Rams beating the Cowboys. But what percentage would you put on? 75.

No, less than that. Oh, yeah. But you've said you were to 75 a month ago. Yeah, I would have put it at 7 a month ago. I don't know, maybe 65, 68. And then it'd be less with the Bears. The Bears just dismantled their offense on National Television. I'm talking about in a playoff game in Los Angeles.

I would feel very good. Which is where it would be. I think the Bears absolutely could win that game. Okay. I mean, it's very likely that that game will happen. if the Bears win their first playoff game. So not likely. I guess so.

The Bears lose in Minnesota and none of this will matter. But that game does not feel that daunting to me. And maybe that'll come back to haunt me. But with the way they've played over the last three weeks, why would it? Even outside of my own kind of personal tunnel vision, why would that game be intimidating to you? We saw what the Eagles just did to them on their home field.

That was a game where the Eagles were in control for almost all of it. Yeah. Dude, you're feeling it. I'm not feeling it. I'm not feeling it. Trust me. This has more to do with the way the Rams have looked than how I feel about the Bears. I mean, Trubisky in a road playoff game, and most likely, too, is not something you want to deal with.

But again, I think that's the spirit of this conversation is just that none of these games on paper, the going to the Superdome, and the Superdome still is terrifying just for other reasons. That's a home stadium that the Saints have played well and everything else. going to LA, that just doesn't seem as scary as it did a month ago. It doesn't seem, it's not even close. All right. Should we get to the games? Or take shop?

Let's get to take shop. So here's my take shop, and this is born of the lists that came out yesterday that are just an absolute travesty. Why is there a Pro Bowl? Oh, yeah. Like, we should just do away with the Proble. What is the argument for it existing? Well, it gets better ratings than, like, everything that's not football.

couldn't we put anything NFL related on there? I just... Is that true? I know, I don't... Yeah, I know. I think you need, like, a game. I guess that's the reason. It's not a good enough reason for me.

First, and this is nothing against... You know what it's like for me? And I have to watch every football game. So it's hard, and you do too. So it's hard for us to put ourselves in the shoes of fans. But what I say is this, I am a viewer of the golf channel. Or like, Fox Sports with the UFC stuff.

right, or boxing. I will watch any sport that I like at any level of any, with any, with any talent involved. Did you watch the Pro Bowl? No. Oh, I'm traveling all the time. What I'm saying is if you're a fan, you just want to see action of the thing you like. I do not watch the Pro Bowl. Okay.

But I'm always, I'm always getting right for the Super Bowl. So it's hard for me. So usually I am too, but there are moments and there have been years where I am in front, I am on a couch or I'm in a hotel room. and the Pro Bowl could be on. What I'm saying is... I do not turn it on. What I'm saying is, like, if there's, like, a boxing match

or a UFC card or a Formula One race or a golf, things that have nothing to do with my work. That's the reason I'm saying these. Like, obviously, MBA might have to do some of my work. Things that have nothing to do with my work. It doesn't matter how good it is. I'll just turn it on for 10 minutes,

but that's interesting. It's not interesting, though. It's not interesting to any way. It's interesting to you because it's the thing you like. It's not interesting to me, though. We cover it for a living. I don't understand how anyone can think the Pro Bowl is interesting.

Somehow it rates better than like everything. It is a terrible sporting event. This is nothing against Orlando. But at least the players used to get a trip to Hawaii. That's reason enough. Last year, 8.6 million people watched it. That's terrifying to me. 8.6 million people don't watch anything.

And so here is the other side of this. It's not just about the quality of the product, which is objectively terrible. It's about how misleading the Pro Bowl is. Because people use the Pro Bowl as a way to prop up players and they use it as an accolade and as a means to measure how good a player is actually is. And it's not that. Mitchell Schwartz and David Bakhtiari are respectively the best right and left tackles in the NFL this season. And they did not make the Pro Bowl. Chris Jones.

Rodney Hudson also did not make the Pro Bowl. Chris Jones has 13 sacks this year for the Chiefs. a team that could not have higher standing in the NFL as it currently stands. And he did not make the Pro Bowl. I just don't get why we have, if anything, if the Pro Bowl has to exist, which I really don't think it should or has to, then why do we have a fan vote? Why is that part of how this is going?

It just feels like it should either be a joke or we should take it really seriously. And the middle ground here, I just feel like we're losing so much. And no one should ever use pro bowl appearances ever again as a way to evaluate a player's career, but people are still going to. And I just, I don't know, I hate the Pro Bowl and I want everything about it to change.

I wish there was a way for the Senior Bowl to be played instead of the Pro Bowl. Sure, let's do that. You know what I'm saying? I wish it was a way to have, like, college prospects as well. It's the same week. Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, we should have like the players can parade around or whatever and we can have like, you know, gronk like on the sideline or whatever.

But I think from our perspective about learning what's going on in football, we're more interesting to see. Yes. I would much rather just have the senior bowl be the crown jewel of that weekend than a makeshift all-star game that no one actually cares about and only watch it because it's on. The only thing anyone's ever talked about with the Pro Bowl is the Sean Taylor hit. Yeah, that's it.

It's the one good pro ball moment. And also, Marcus Marrida used to go and get autographs, And that's why he signs all the autographs now. That is the only good pro-ball moment. And this is not true of all-star games. The NBA All-Star game has been great at times. And the NFL has never had that. There's a joke we have around the office.

The only reason baseball exists anymore is to be part of an anecdote about football. So like Patrick Mahomes, like without baseball, there's no Patrick Mahomes narrative, right? And I kind of feel like the pro ball. That's not fair. Yeah, no, I know. It's true. So the Pro Bowl is like that too Where it's just like you just get like every year

You get a crazy Pro Bowl anecdote Like Dave Hyde the Sunscent Al-Commerce Once reported that Belichick Try to steal signals of the Pro Bowl Like no one watches the Pro Bowl There's just crazy stories that come out of it It just pushes anecdotes forward All right, what's your text show for the week?

So I want to talk About a story I saw On the Internet About a guy who says he doesn't know if Sunday is his final home game of his career. He doesn't want to play anywhere else, but he'd be a pretty good pickup. He's a free agent.

I think that Larry Fitzgerald would go play for the New England Patriots. I mean, I'd be into that. Do they really need another aging kind of slow receiver, though? Is that what the Pats are really missing? First of all, it hasn't stopped Belichick before. That's a good point.

Why stop now? I don't know. That would bump me out, I guess. It would be fun to see him chase a championship, I guess. They need weapons. Let Larry would do whatever he wants. Let him do whatever he wants. He said he doesn't want to play anywhere else.

He kind of, he said that. It was paraphrased, but then he said, why would I want to play that? That kind of thing. So it seems like he's ruled it out. He's going to be a free agent. He's 35 years old. It's about 700 yards this year. I mean, for the worst offense in the NFL.

Those numbers are. Those are not Larry's fault. His yards per reception is actually the highest it's been since 2015. Let's just do it. That'd be into it. It'd be kind of fun. I would like to see him just do one more round with an actual quarterback. Although I think Josh Rosen can be pretty good eventually, but we're never going to find out.

No time for that. Yeah, Larry's on borrowed time. That's very true. I'm into it. I don't want to score like any sort of contender. I'd be down to... I think the page. Just don't have a lot of weapons.

I mean, I'm not saying Larry Fitzgerald would be that, but I'm saying that he wouldn't be seventh on the depth chart. No. Like, you put Larry Fitzger out on the Chiefs, and there's a playing time problem. Yeah, that's a good point. There are plenty of teams he'd play for, though. I would like, you know who would be a fun combination?

The Saints? No, you put Larry in Cleveland with Baker. But we need him to win the Super Bowl. I know, I know, I know. It defeats the purpose here, but there are teams I would like to see him. People who were just like Josh. I mean, obviously, Baker's much better than Rosen, but I'm just saying like, we're not Baker.

I think Larry Fitzgerald with Baker would be awesome. I understand that, but we need him to get him back into the Super Bowl. I know. You're not saying that you don't think the Browns are going to the Super Bowl next year? With that you're trying to say? With full-time head coach Greg Williams. That's the only way they're getting there, man. I mean, why would you go anywhere else at this point?

All right, I'm into it. I could support this, even though it does feel weird. And I don't know if I'd like seeing him in New England. I just want Larry to be happy. Well, we haven't mentioned, we know this. And it's so obvious to us that we're, we haven't even discussed it. Bill Belichick is in love with Larry Fitzgerne.

Yes. He is love. You've written a story about it. I wrote last year about how Bill Belichick has a series of players that are just his all-time crushes. And Larry Fitzgerald is very much on that list. The others include Ed Reed. Ed Reed is, I think, number one.

Ed Reed is the player that Bill Belichick always wish he would have coached. Who else is on the list? Let me look it up now. But Ed Reed and Larry Fitzgerald were definitely one and two all-time in my mind. And Peyton Manning got a lot of praise. He's gosh what the other one was. He loved Jason Taylor. Oh, yeah.

Did he go, Belichick, loves Jason Taylor? Did he say he not do 10 minutes on the Patriots? I don't think he ever did. Look, I'm looking into this. No, I don't think he ever did. He did not. He went, Dolphins, Redskins, Dolphins, Jets, Dolphins. Bill Belichick, Jason Taylor was the player I coached against the most times and may also

be the one who ruined the most games. So his retirement is met with some mixed reactions in New England. Bill Belichick loved watching Jason Taylor so much, even if it meant Jason Taylor destroying the Patriots. Nice dancing, huge dancing with the Stars section on Jason Taylor's Wikipedia page. I think his career will be remembered in a weird way. He was a really, really good player. He was a very, very good player.

He just played for some crappy, crappy teams. All right, let's get to the biggest three games of the week, and let us start with the Steelers at the Saints. Again, three weeks ago, I think we would have said, you know, the Steelers are fine. The Saints are one of the best teams in the leagues. It's really a marquee game. And now they have definitely kind of converged in the middle here.

Well, the Saints are just a different team. They scored 12 points on Monday night. Since Field Yates tweeted this out, since week 10s, essentially midway point in the season, the Saints are first in the NFL in yards, excuse me, in points allowed, third in yards allowed, first in sacks, third in turnover is forced. That's the defense. Yes. I know.

It's bizarre. seventh in points until that period. Now, I sat here, and I talked about how the Saints defense improved so much last year that can't possibly happen again this year. I mean, they regressed intensely for the first month and a half of the season, and now they're coming back. Last year. No, it was two games.

Dude, they went from, they went from, like, they had a very similar, like, 27th to first kind of deal. They finished in the top 10 of defense. Oh, I know they did last year. I think they finished eighth. Yeah. But the swoon was not nearly as long as it was to start this season. It didn't last nine weeks.

It was a gradual improvement. When Marshawn-Ladamore came back, they hit the ground running. The Saints defense is John Wick. They were just like, here we go. I'm thinking I'm back. And then now they're just first. They're playing extremely well. But, I mean, now they're playing against, who's the best offense they played over that stretch?

I guess that's my question. because it feels like the Steelers might fit that bill. Well, they played the Rams, but was that early? Was that, it was after the Rams game? Yeah, so then you go Bengals, Eagles, Falcons, Cowboys, Bucks, who have put up some points. The Falcons have too, but the Falcons, that was kind of in their downturn as well. The Falcons have pivoted towards not as far as far as.

So you could probably say that the Steelers are the best offense that they played over that structure. Yeah. So we'll see what happens this week. But on the other side, it feels like, you know, when you have the Saints offense, it's struggling a little bit. You go against a Carolina team that's really given up some big games through the air. Their corners have had some issues this season, and then the Saints can do nothing on offense.

I know Michael Thomas had some throws called back and everything else, but it still wasn't just this marching up and down the field we probably expected. The Steelers have had the same issues. Their corners have had some down games. Teams have moved the ball on that. them passing-wise, and we'll see if it can happen. Because it should, but again, there have been a couple of recent examples where it just hasn't come to fruition.

And I guess that's what I'm waiting for. Like, against a decent matchup, can the Saints do anything? And I just don't know. I just don't know when this is going to be rated. Could you imagine? One thing I'm excited about is that the Saints' offense didn't keep pace while the defense got elite. Otherwise, we just shouldn't have played the playoffs.

Yes, it'd be over. Thank God, one side of that fell off. Thank the Lord. Yeah. I mean, Marshawn and Lattimore and San Antonio Brown is fun. Yeah. But again, I mean, I think that's the biggest issue here, is that I think this is not surprising to say.

Most teams don't have two receivers like the Steelers do. And you don't have two Marshawn Lattimore's. And it feels like this is a game where either, let's say they try to put Lattimore on Juju and Brackett Brown. I mean, the Patriots have done that a bunch. Or they just say, all right, Marshawn, you have Antonio Brown. It feels like this is the type of game

where Juju could have a monster day just because you know nothing about those other Saints' corner scares you. Yeah, no, I think this is a very fascinating matchup because I really want to see where these two teams are at. And if the Saints lose, there's no guarantee they get home field advantage still. They're tied with the Rams.

But the Rams are playing terrible teams the last week, so they played the Niners and the Cardinals. The Rams look terrible. I understand that. But they're playing the Niners and the Cardinals. Cardinals. This is the type of week where... Dude, have you seen the Eagles this year?

I'm not ready to say the Rams are that bad. I'm still prepared to say that the Rams are better than the Niners and the Cardinals. Yeah, I'm prepared to say the Rams are better than the Cardinals. I'm just saying the Eagles looked like their season was over, and now I'm... I'm just searching through Stone Cold Steve Austin gifts for Nick Ful's comeback. Well, all right, let's get to that then. Texans go to Philadelphia. and I think that this is the type of game

where the Nick Foles train could keep riding a little bit. Let's do this. Because, all right, so let me lay this out. What is the Texan's biggest weakness? Throw off its line. Yes. What do the Eagles do extremely well on defense? Get after the ball.

That's correct. It feels like DeJohn Watson is going to be running for his life for the majority of this game. What did we see last week that the Eagles can do against a secondary that's pretty tattered? Take advantage of it. Yes. Throw the ball down field.

Does every single defensive back out? I mean, the safeties are decent in Houston, but there are other corners outside of Kareem Jackson have had a really rough season. I mean, John the Joseph's been fine, but they've had some issues with those other corners. I feel like if they want to throw the ball downfield, it may be there for the Eagles on Sunday.

There is a recipe for the Eagles to beat this team, even though the Texans are much better than that. Okay. Okay. Am I getting a little ahead of myself with this Nick Foles thing? You're not. You're not. All right.

You can tell me if I am. What does Nick Foles have to do? I don't want to go full talk radio here. What does Nick Foles have to do to create a quarterback controversy? Win the Super Bowl again. Win the Super Bowl. Yes. What if he gets to the NFC championship?

No. Okay. I think he has to win the Super Bowl again. Okay. Because then what do you do? About the $20 million? If he wins two Super Bowls, what do you do? I mean, I rank him above Aaron Rogers in the Pantheon with his one Super Bowl.

Wow. And I always love my favorite thing for years. And younger people may not get this because it's been four years since we did this. The cranky columnist, Eli, is better than Peyton because Eli has two. Super Bowls and Peyton has won. It was one of my favorites. Until the second Super Bowl, people talked about that all the time. Yeah, it was like a real thing. It was the dumbest thing. I mean, I'm sorry, I judge my

quarterbacks by Super Bowls. That's always how I've judged mine. But even if we just kind of admit. No, I think, I think they would just trade them. If you won another Super Bowl? I think so. Right? Or do you keep them around to win a third Super Bowl when Wence gets hurt next December? I think this is dumb, and I feel like, again, there's almost no circumstance in which Carson Wentz is not the quarterback there. But if he won it again, I just don't know how you'd react to that.

At a certain point, Howie Rosen's probably sitting there like, what the fuck? What am I supposed to do with this? I think you just keep him around, so he just wins a Super Bowl every year. I guess so. I mean, maybe just pay him the $20 million and make him the back of quarterback. Well, I think you pay him $20 million because he accidentally won two Super Bowls. Yes. It's like when the Yankees gave Derek, or like, Kobe Bryant deal, right?

Right at the end there, it was just insanely bad contract. Maybe you just cut other guys and just keep Nick Foles around. Just keep him around. Because at a certain point. He's a good vibe guy, apparently. I guess so. Because, I mean, if you're sitting there, like, the guys won two Super Bowls. Can we really just trade them or cut them?

I don't, it would be the most bizarre thing. I do not anticipate it happening. But again, this is, so I think this is the type of game the Eagles can win. But I don't necessarily think that says a lot about the Texans Hope moving forward. I think it can be a bad matchup. and Philly has strengths that can take advantage of where the Texans are bad. But the Texans need this game. Yeah.

Because if the Patriots have smooth sailing here, they play the Bills and they play the Jets, correct? They should win both of those games as no matter how bad they look right now. And the Texans really would love to have that buy. That goes without saying. But they need to win this game in order to do that. They play the Jags in Week 17. The Jags are not a real team anymore. They beat the Colts.

The Jags are not a real team anymore. You've seen the quotes coming out of Jacksonville? I think they're all set. Leonard Fordhett's their kick returner now. Hey, Bruiser. Might as well try it out, I guess. You're $8 million kick returning running back.

Do you know by Pro Football Focuses wins above replacement, who are the most valuable non-quarterback in the NFL? DeAndre Hopkins. Yeah. That's not surprising to me. Who would you say it is if you just had to guess? I don't know. Their metric really, really, really, really.

values first downs. A lot of efficiency metrics in the NFL value that. Turns out first downs are incredibly important. Yeah, it matters. You're going to want them. You get to keep the ball. You're going to want them. Yeah, that's a good thing.

No, was that, yeah, that's going to be your next story about analytics in the NFL. It's just going to be... That's kind of what I wrote today. First downs, you're going to want them. Yeah, it's kind of what I wrote today. I mean, just as far as, you know, in the same way baseball, they figured out, like,

let's not sacrifice bunt. Yeah. Because we have 27 outs. We don't waste any. Football teams have figured out, Like, wait, we have 10 drives a game. We should try to make those count. Yes.

And that's the thing. I mean, every time I see a team just line up and run on first and 10 for two yards, it just drives me crazy now. I'm not saying you need to throw every time on first down because... I kind of am. Well, then, you know, the pendulum swings and everything else. Well, I mean, you can... If you can gain easy eight yards, go ahead.

Yeah, it's just, I feel like we're not there yet. Teams are not ready for everyone to throw on first down. Who? Philip Rivers. Yes. I mean... Philip? Phil Rivers?

Teams should be throwing the ball, I don't know, 70% of the time anyway, so that by extension will include first down more often than it has in the past. I can understand why Hopkins would be the most valuable because not only about the production and the statistical stuff, but just think about the anecdotal element of that and how many contested catches there are, the way that Deshontas put the ball up. I mean, outside of him, let's just process of elimination. What positions could even be in the conversation for that? Pretty much past rushers and past catchers, right?

Those would be the only two. Well, as we've discussed, PFF actually has past coverage more important than pass rush. Okay, so corners are in there for that. Well, Bobby Wagner is more valuable than Aaron Donald's because Bobby Wagner is a is can. Because he covers people. He covers people and he does another thing. So the reason is because you cannot take Bobby Wagner out of the game. Yeah.

Whereas I can take Aaron Dominole the game Feel free to read it. It's on the website. I saw it. I haven't read it yet, though. I was in the car for the last two hours. Sounds like you had plenty of time to read it in the car. I guess so. Yeah, I can completely understand that. I would probably throw those two positions in there.

And then if you have a corner or some sort of defensive player that actually plays past coverage, it's understandable. But it's not surprising to me that Hopkins gets that, especially with the way he's played this year. All right, last one here. Ravens at Chargers. This is a Saturday game, which is very fun because I like when some of the good games

are not all on Sunday. When was the last time there was a Saturday game that didn't sneak up on you? Let's talk about that because this past week, it snuck up on me so much that I woke up on Saturday and did not remember that it was happening. No, the game started.

It was after that. Texans Jets, and I was just like, oh. I was in Los Angeles. I planned a little nice day for myself. I was going to go to Venice. I was going to enjoy them. the day. I was in San Monica. And I was driving out there and I was just like, oh shit. I actually saw the favorite first, which was great, by the way. Where did you see it? Arclight. What time?

11 o'clock? I saw it the previous, I probably, I saw it like late the previous night. We would have seen each other. There you go. And there was a guy, Patrick Crawley from NFL Network was there too. There it is. It was great. I just ran into him. So anyone associated with football. So I saw the movie and I was my plan was to go to Venice. And then I realized as I was walking out of the movie, oh shit, an NFL game. starts in 10 minutes. It was great. It was a nice little surprise.

I got to watch the Jets and the Texans play. But yeah, they always sneak up on me, but this is a good one. This is a very good one and a very important one. The Ravens need this to stay key pace in both the AFC North and the Wild Card. And the Chargers still can win the one seed. I mean, this is a very good football game. It's pro Vincent Verheye at Football Outsiders. Lamar Jackson has 120 passing yards and 60 rushing yards in each of his

five starts this year. Single season record is six. When would it even happen before? Randall Cunningham, RG3, Russell Wilson. Michael Vick? Cam Newton. Michael Vick, he is tied Michael Vick already. I mean, it's a very small array of quarterbacks we've ever seen.

And in that time, he points out in that time he's 26th in passing arts. Fifth in rushing arts. So I'll be curious to see how the Chargers deal with us because for the most part, the issues that the Chargers have in terms of their holes on defense are about what they have up front. They lost Corey Legion for this season. They lost Paraman. Both of those guys were pretty instrumental

in their run defense. They're 18th in run defense right now, ninth against the pass. There's one spot where you can really take advantage of this team that's on the ground. And that's what we've seen the Ravens do. Wait, did the Chiefs get 100-yard receiver against them? No, because Kelsey only had 60.

Hill didn't have a big game. No, he did, 139 yards. Hill did. So Hill is the only receiver this year to cross 100 yards. I'm remembering that game very weirdly, I guess. You've Mandela affected. Somehow. Because Mahomes didn't have a monster day, and I know Kelsey didn't have a big game.

Do you know what's funny? Do you know what's funny? I watched that game, and I thought Mahomes did not have a monster day. Patrick Mahomes had 377 passing yards. He only just threw two touchdowns. I guess that's why I'm thinking it had a monster day. I've said this before. It's very like Tebow when he was at Florida, where it's like quiet day.

for Tim Tebowl. He only had two rushing touchdowns and two passing touchdowns. Our standard has just become completely impossible. The Gators would put up 42 points against Arkansas. That's really funny that I said how allowed he didn't have a big game and he had 377

What I'm saying is I was with you. I was with you and I happened to be staring at 377 yards. Oh, that's amazing. What are we doing here? So that part of it is interesting to me and then this Chargers offense against the Ravens defense, man.

I mean, the Ravens have had the second best defense in the NFL by most metrics this year. The Chargers are, if not the second best offense right now in the league, than the third best offense. Yeah. This is an incredible clash. And I was committed with the Chargers a little bit this week, and they were talking about it with Philip Rivers yesterday. It's actually kind of fun because I think this is the first time that Philip Rivers will play against Eric Weddle.

And they were teammates for a decade. And like, that's a nice little chess match on the back end. And with the way the Rivers is playing right now, I think that I really would love to see kind of him against a measuring stick like this Ravens defense presents. Yeah, I mean, and that's how I felt. I felt that way about the Ravens a couple of times this year where they can stop the pass. And it's really great to see them. Look what they did against the Chiefs.

377 yards. And I think that the biggest difference this season with the Chargers offense outside of just the play of Philip Rivers in general has been their rushing efficiency. because if you look at Melvin Gordon's numbers for the most part this season, he has struggled, or the most part in his career, he has really struggled to run the ball efficiently. Less than four yards of carry for his career coming into this season.

He's over five yards of carry this year. And can they find similar rushing efficiency against one of the best rush defenses in the NFL? Baltimore's sixth and rush defense TVOA, they're a really hard team to run against. And if the Ravens, if the Chargers can find success on the ground against them, then I think they're really dangerous come playoff time. Other interesting little nugget is that the Ravens are number one in the league

in DVOA against running back past catches. And that's, again, been a huge part of what the charges have done when Gordon has been in the game. They love throwing him the ball, and the Ravens are excellent at shutting that down. They can take away Gordon on the ground and through the air. I think that that's really what Rivers wants to do a lot when Gordon's in the game. And I think that that's going to kind of tie one hand behind their back. Yep. All right.

I'm going to do my sneaky truth now. Okay. Let's do it. I want to up with the Brown's coaching situation. I'm shocked. Let's hear it. There's a lot of takes out there that Freddie Kitchen should either be the head coach or be retained as offensive coordinator.

One thing, I saw Joe Banner tweet about this on Wednesday, and I think it's an interesting point. you can't, and it's something you've talked about as well, you cannot build a staff thinking your office coordinator is going to stay forever. No. If you hire someone, I mean, I don't think they're actually going to hire Greg Williams. But if you hire him and say, well, we can keep Freddie Kitchens. We should contract the Browns.

Freddie Kitchens might get a head coaching job this year. Yeah. I mean, you have to, what has to happen in Cleveland is it has to be an offensive play call. That's the only, we've seen that. And I would say, every time. I'm with you on this one. And what I would say on this, I don't agree. We had the Steve Willis discussion.

I do think Vic Fangio, there are places where that can work. I mean, I think Green Bay is actually one of them. Let's play this out, though. Okay. If the Packers hire Vic Fangio, and let's throw out whatever name might get a headcoat or an office coordinator job this year, Let's just, you know what, let's say Freddie Kitchens, for argument's sake. Let's say the Packers. Sure.

Made him enough. Yeah, hypothetically. Let's say the Packers hire Freddie Kitchens next year as their offensive coordinator. Let's say the Packers scored 32 points a game with Freddie Kitchens as their offensive coordinator next season. Yeah. What happens the next year? He goes and coaches the Miami Dolphins.

Yes. So then you're back at square one. This is one of the cruxes of my argument for hiring offensive-minded head coaches that are your play callers. You cannot lose them. But what I'm saying is, is. that some places the offensive play calling matters more than others. Okay. You know, Pete Doherty, Pete Doherty, actually, the Packers writer, had a great piece the other day that was just like,

just that Aaron Rodgers called a place. That's not how that works. Oh. Well, you ever looked into Peyton Manning's career? Yeah, that's one example. Josh McDaniels still calls the plays over there in New England, so. And, all right, but what I'm saying is that the most important thing in Cleveland right now is Unlocking Baker Mayfield.

And I would say, I don't think that it's almost, we have this conversation about offensive minds all the time. I don't think Freddie Kitchens is uniquely qualified to unlock Baker Mayfield. I think he's just a competent

offensive coach and Baker Mayfield's ready to be unlocked. That's a really good argument. I don't know how I feel about this. I could go either way. You think that out of all the humans on earth, Freddie Kitchens is, who is the running backs coach

until, you know, week nine, you think he is the best person to coach Baker Mayfield. I don't know if he's the best one, but I think that. that you couldn't just throw anyone in that job. But I think if you're John Dorsey, you say who is the best person on the planet to coach Baker-May-field? I totally agree with you.

But, okay, that is fine. But I, and I, that's exact mode of thinking I would follow if I were John Dorsey in this situation. But I still think the job that Freddie Kitchens has done in Cleveland warrants him getting a similar job elsewhere, if that makes sense. As an offense coordinator. Yes. Yes. Hey, he might be an offensive coordinator for the Browns under an offensive head coach. Sure.

Yes. I would rather, well, isn't that kind of defeating the purpose, then you say you want an offensive head coach that's a play caller? Yeah, no, no, but I'm just saying he can stay around and just make a million dollars a year. I'm not sure he's going to be doing that. I'm pretty sure he's going to want a play calling job after what's happened over the last eight weeks. Cut the check, brother. I assume that he's going to get a play calling jobs elsewhere.

And I do believe. I'm saying from the Browns, and if you wanted to stay, he could stay. Sure, that's how I feel about Big Fangio. Here's $8 million. You want to be our Pete Carmichael, Jr.?? Go ahead. That's kind of where I'm sitting. So I hear you

Maybe he's not the best guy But I do feel like that list of guys that could Kind of coax what they have out of Baker Mayfield Over the last five or six weeks It's not as long as some people may think it is That list is finite And I think that Freddie Kitchens has proven That his name is on that list

Give me your geeks out We were gonna pick I wanted us to pick our personal Pro Bowl roster Oh my God wait I didn't know I was doing this Yeah Just your three guys that are you in your heart, the pro bowlers of your heart this season. So guys who, whether the pro bowlers

or not, are on our pro bowl team. Yes, they're the pro bowlers of your heart, as Danny Kelly said yesterday on Twitter. Yeah, I mean, like, Jalen Ramsey was that from me last year. Yes, exactly. Where I'm just like, God damn, I love the Jalen Ramsey. Exactly. So I would say that number one on my list

this season, by far, is Eddie Jackson. I just... That's an inside job. I mean, I'm just saying, I have... I've absolutely loved watching Eddie Jackson play this year. And Khalil Mack is just too easy. He's Khalil Mack. The style of play that Eddie Jackson has and just that pick he had against Detroit, that will be, so far I think that's my favorite bear's play of the season. Just because it wasn't a tipped ball, you know, it wasn't something where there was a deflection and he grabbed it and he ran it for a touchdown.

That was Ed Reed type shit. And it was so fun to see a guy kind of ascending to that moment. And Ed Reed even said something to him on Twitter later that week. I mean, it was just one of those things where it's so cool. Having a defensive player that is liable to score a touchdown every single time he's on the field is one of the most fun things about football. And Eddie Jackson is that right now. And it's just been such a blast.

That's why I was kind of heartbroken when it looked like he might not play again this year after getting hurt at the end of that Packers game. And the fact that it looks like he's going to be back is just makes me so, so happy. So he's definitely number one on my list. Who would you say is one of yours? Well, there's a couple of people. The first person, I just want to say I'm happy is in the league. Is Derwin James?

Yes. I feel like I've talked about him so much. I did not put him on my list. I just think that he brings a level to the game that is just exciting and he's visually resting to watch. And I just, I love freak athletes. We've talked about this. And when I saw his combine numbers, I said, this is going to be a guy who's going to

played at a high level for a decade, and he has delivered. So, God bless Derwin James. My number two, not surprisingly, is Quentin Nelson. Yeah, that was going to be your number one. It took a little while. I would have loved to have just taken Quentin Nelson first. I thought about it, just so you couldn't do it. He didn't necessarily start dominating from the get-go. He was a fine player. He was playing well from the start. But what he has done over the past, like three or four weeks, is just insane. He is mauling people every single week. And while that's fun,

and it's cool to see an offensive lineman that can create highlights, it's just because you don't normally see that. Ossimile was like that for a couple years where he was just physically dominating people so much that it was notable. And that's fun for somebody who likes offensive line play.

But just what he's done to transform that entire Colts line, the way they pushed around the Cowboys on Sunday, you haven't seen that this year. Nobody's dominated the Cowboys like. that. And even if Ryan Kelly is a part of that practically, I feel like just the injection of attitude that Quentin Nelson has provided. You've just seen what it's done to that entire offense. And it's fun. Watching him just crush people and have like six or seven pancakes every

single game, it's pretty enjoyable for me. The Prince that was promised. Is that Quentin Nelson? It is not. It is not Quentin Nelson. Byron Jones. Wow. This has been. for you. It's been a long time coming. Byron Jones, best leaper in the history of the combine. Myself, Jerry Jones. I thought you were saying that it was Brian Jones. No, no.

And then Jerry Jones. In the history of the combine. No, I'm saying, we believed he probably jumped around and a half because of those combine numbers and everybody's always a workout warrior. He might be the best cornerback in football right now. In fact, through as recently as a couple weeks ago, he was Pro Football Focus's number. his number one cornerback. And I think the world of him, I think that he is one of the focal points of a Dallas defense that's

gotten them back in contention. So I'm all in on Byron Jones. He's going to have a great career. He's put it all together. I wrote, I did a profile thing of Byron Jones a year too early. I did it last August. Just pretend I did it this August. I think I can do that.

I think I can suspend that, believe. My third one is somebody who is not in the playoff picture. He is not an irrelevant team. it's kind of random. It's Kenny Goladay. He's relevant. Watching Kenny Goladay play this year. I feel like

Kenny Goladay deserves so much more than what the Lions offense is. That dude is really, really good. It seems like every single week he's just jumping over people making ridiculous Randy Moss catches. You're acting like he's playing in the Japanese league. Honestly, the Lions might as well be

the Japanese league at this point. That dude, I just feel like if he were the number one receiver on a real NFL offense, we would mention him in a different air than we do right now. He was in my fantasy team. It's one of the reason where you start paying attention a little bit more to certain guys. And just watching him week in and week out, it's like, holy shit, this dude is talented. Yes. Miles Garrett. Wasn't he there last year for you, though?

No. All right. I'll give that to you. Dominant. also his team matters now. Baker Mayfield's going to be on mine next year, even though it's going to be cheap when he's like one of the favorites for the MVP of the league.

Densea Ward too. Speaking of athletes. Speaking of athletes. Browns are fun, dude. I am very excited about next year's Cleveland Browns, no matter who's coaching them, even if it, I don't know if I'll be as excited if it's Greg Williams. Sashi died for this. That's exactly right.

Just that Baker life, I'm really looking forward to it. We knew Baker. We knew it coming in. I think we both like, August, like this dude is going to be really special and it's come to fruition. There was a GM at the owner's meeting who had like five too many drinks and came up to me and said, who would you draft? And I said, Baker Mayfield and he shook his head now. I'm glad that dude wasn't the guy drafting. It was obviously not the person who runs the Browns.

All right. I think that's all we got, buddy. It is. We'll be back on Sunday. I will not be here. We're sitting in the same room. I haven't been mentioned that. I will be in Orlando, Florida. I will be in Chicago, Illinois, preparing for the holiday, which should be great. All right. As always, guys, thank you so much for listening to Ringer NFL show on the Ringar Podcast Network. We'll be back with you Sunday night.