The Ringer NFL Show - Who Is Damar Hamlin? And How Do We Watch Football After This?

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

Nora and Sheil are joined by The Buffalo News’ Katherine Fitzgerald to discuss their feelings following the 'MNF' matchup between the Bills and Bengals, and give insight into Damar Hamlin as a human. Host: Nora Princiotti and Sheil Kapadia Guest: Katherine Fitzgerald Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome to a golf podcast unlike any other. This is Fairway Rowland on the Ringer podcast network. I am your starter. Joe House every week on Fairway Rowland. It is myself and our PGA tour correspondent on the ground, Nathan Hubbard talking all things, professional golf, amateur golf, amateur betting, professional betting, amateur drinking, professional drinking by Birdie Buddies.

If you want to hit them straight out there, please check out Fairway Rowland every week. Available on Spotify. Hi, everyone. This is Nora Pinciotti. Welcome to The Ringer NFL show. Normally, we would be coming to you with the island today. That's going to, we're not going to do that. We're going to have an episode about Damar Hamlin, the 24th.

year old who suffered cardiac arrest on the field of the Bill's Bengals game on Monday night. I'm here with my colleague, Shil Kapadia, and Catherine Fitzgerald, who has joined us from the Buffalo News. And we're just going to have a conversation about Damar and what he's going through, what his family's going through, what the bills are going through. And to some extent, what we're all going through after seeing what was the scariest on-field football event, certainly in my consciousness, with the sport. And it is a really hard thing that primarily this young man and his family are going through, but that we all watched. So Sheal, thank you so much for joining us. And Catherine, especially, I think we're really lucky to have your person.

perspective on the show on Damar and just as someone who has been with him and knows him and has been with the team and was there on Monday. So thank you so much for being here. And it feels a little strange to ask, but just how are you doing? Yeah. Obviously, it's been a really weird and rough stretch. Just thinking of Damar and his family so much right now. He's been so great to get to know while I've been covering this team. And I hate that this is how more NFL fans are learning more about who he is as a person. But I think he's a really great dude and just hopeful there's good news soon. And, you know, glad that people are starting to get to know more about who he is just as a human.

Sheal, I know the experience of just watching all of what happened on Monday unfold was tough and scary. How are you doing? And what have the last 36 or so hours because it's Wednesday afternoon as we're recording this? What's just been your experience of going through this? Yeah, it was, I was thinking back to kind of all the on-field events and we've all been on beats and whether you're at practice or a game. We've seen these terrible injuries. I remember early in my career, there was an Eagles defensive tackle was suffering a seizure on the field. And it was like the scariest thing I had ever seen in the ambulance coming over and players are slamming their helmet. And luckily, his name was Mike Patterson. He was fine. But I took 15 minutes, 15 minutes from when that

happened, they resumed practice. And like, I've never gotten used to that. And you talk to players and coaches about that. And this was obviously a totally different situation. And I feel like in those situations, you always look at the players and the players always know and you can tell kind of how are they reacting, kind of gives you the signals to how you should be reacting. So obviously this was something completely different, shocking, jarring everything. And I'm glad we have Catherine here because one of the fun things about being on a beat is you actually like, these are people. You talk to them every day. You get to know their families. You ask for their parents phone numbers when you're writing a feature. Yes, teammates about him. You have these

little nuggets in your brain that happened in the locker room that you never write about, but you're like, oh, that was really funny seeing the way those two interacted. So I think what Catherine said is important. I mean, I'll be honest, I knew Demar Hamlin as a six-round pick, as a safety who had to come in and play for Mike to hide. I didn't know anything about his backstory until the last 72 hours. And you feel kind of bad about that because you get in that bubble sometimes where you just look, all right, is this person a good player or a bad player or how does he affect kind of what I'm going to say on a podcast? And so, no, it's great that we have Catherine here to kind of fill in the backstory because I think that's been a big part of the last 48 hours

yourself. Yeah, Sheila, I mean, you mentioned the players sort of always know. And I think what will be a really lasting set of images from what happened were the reactions of the Bill's players in particular. Because as, you know, after he collapsed and the broadcast was figuring out what was going on and going to commercial, I think the one thing that was the first thing to me where I realized, oh God, something really bad has happened was just seeing Josh Allen with tears in his eyes and his hands over his mouth and nose and Stefan Diggs just pacing and, and, you know, and, you know, holding his hands over his chest really emotional.

And guys like Tredavius White also just clearly in extreme distress. And then you started to hear the broadcast communicate that Damar was getting CPR on the field. And the emergency responders who were doing that were able to get his heartbeat going again using CPR. and a defibrillator before he was taken to the University of Cincinnati Medical Center. As far as I know, as far as the latest updates that we've gotten from some of DeMar's family members, as well as the bills in the NFL, he is still in critical condition at the hospital. I know his uncle, whose name is Dorian Glenn, has said to multiple media outlets that Damar is still on a ventilator but has improved somewhat in the amount of oxygen that it's

taking to require him to keep breathing. Catherine, is there anything else that we should know just about the facts of what happened here and what Damar's condition is and what we're all sort of waiting and hoping to hear some good news? Yeah, that is the latest on just a day. condition that he's still in critical condition there. You know, I think it's, I understand why there's not too much more information where there's still a lot to be figured out even once he improves, just kind of how he is doing.

But I think there was some optimism around those updates lately. So I'm hoping that's all true. But yeah, to your earlier point, I think just seeing the players react in real time, I mean, that's something I'll never forget of just kind of. There were a few different moments throughout it all of realizing how how severe it was. And I think those are kind of what I've gone back to a few times of just the urgency of the medical staff. So much credit to them. But, you know, I remember seeing, you know, one of the bills,

I was just kind of like collapsing on the side after walking away from what they were watching. And I think what was really jarring to was just kind of, everything happening at once of, you know, when they were finally getting him into the ambulance, the crowd was cheering in a supportive way, like, okay, this is good, totally understand that, not knocking that they were trying to show support. But I think hearing that while looking at what the players were experiencing, I mean, it was just horrifying. I can't imagine what they're all going through right now. I think, you know, there's that, there's that dissonance of okay, he's getting into an ambulance.

That means that he's getting help. And that's a good thing. And maybe that's what prompted cheering, which makes sense. But there is such a dissonance in a lot of this of the incredible medical care that if he's able to pull through this, we'll have saved his life. And also the necessity of having the absolute most extreme. prepped version of an ambulance, which is required by the NFL to be waiting in the tunnel in case of something like this happening. The most extreme cardiac equipment has to be in the ambulance that's

there to take a player to, or anyone, to a level one trauma center, which is, of course, good and right, but also weird. It's a weird thing to think about that that's something that the sport is prepared for. And I think part of what struck me was just a thought running through my head of, I've thought about this happening before. You know, we work in this industry. We think about this sport all the time. And I've had the thought passed through my head many times. How will I feel and what will happen if the absolute worst thing that I can think of happening on a football field happens while I'm covering a game or covering the sport?

And, you know, we obviously hope to God that the worst has not happened here. But I think we all had this collective experience of sitting and watching a football game that all of a sudden turned into something with life and death stakes. And the dissonance between that being something that I'd thought about before and knew that I'd thought about. And then still just the shock of what it actually felt like in real time and seeing the shock on the faces of the players is one of the things that will really stick with me. Because I think it drove home just how serious this is and what an extreme event this was to have it be something that I knew that I thought through and that it didn't. that didn't matter, that didn't mute any sense of

horror or shock. And if I've thought about it, I can't imagine how much people who actually put themselves at risk by playing the game have thought about it or probably in a lot of cases put some effort into not thinking about it. We can, I want to talk a little bit more

about some of those dissonances eventually, but I want us to talk a little bit more about DeMar first. Catherine, I know you've written about him substantially this season. Who is he? Who is this young man? Yeah, I think what helps to kind of start to paint the picture is right when you go into the Bill's locker room, there's like a wall right in front of you and you have to immediately turn right or left. I have never once in my life turned left there. It's the way the layout is inside. There's more people if you go right. And so I would say 95% of the time,

If you're walking into the Bill's locker room, you're turning right, and DeMarre is the second locker there. He's around a lot. He almost all the time has like a little, whether it's like a rug or a mat, I don't know the exact distinction on material. But he's got his chasing M's logo as like a little rug in front of his locker. That's the name of both his clothing line and his foundation, which is, you know, seeing this huge influx of donations right now. Um, he's around a lot. He's not like quiet, but he's compared to in the Bill's locker room where there's like, you know, an Ed Oliver, a Von Miller, Isaiah McKenzie. He's on the private side. Um, and I think that's why, you know, when he's funny, it is almost so much funnier. Um, I talked to him and Dane Jackson for a long time earlier this season for Astoria on the two of them have known each other since they were little. Like, they've known each other so long that they don't know when they met. I had asked them both separately, kind of like, oh, when did you first meet him? And they both were like, I've just known him.

Like, I went against each other, scrimmaging growing up and trained at the same place before they eventually ended up on the same college team a year apart at University of Pittsburgh. And then now to be in like on the same NFL team, on the same defense, in the secondary. I think that part's been so cool just getting to see that relationship. and, you know, just talking to him through that. I remember since they're both from Pittsburgh, talked to him for a while before they were playing the Steelers this year. And, you know, to take a step back first,

the interview I had with him happened because I ran out of time getting him in the locker room that week and went up to him Friday, like my last chance to get him for this story that I know I am writing all about him and Dane Jackson and have outside voices. I've learned so much about both these guys. They're great dudes, but I must talk to DeMar for this story.

Sure. And so I like basically like bounce right over to his locker at the beginning. I was like, hey, like I'm working on this. Can we talk? And he's like, I have to go to treatment. I will be back. And I'm like, okay, like a little stress. Like I'm.

Because if you're a beat writer, I will be back is a stressful answer to get sometimes because sometimes they don't come back. Yes, I'm like most of the time. I don't for sure feel like he's coming back. I kind of like check in with Bill's PR like, do you know like how long his treatment is, all this stuff? And credit to them too. They're like, we'll tell him like where you'll be and stuff like that.

And eventually the locker room's closing. And I'm like, oh, like I stressed because I want his voice on this story. I want to hear what he has to say. And, you know, someone from Bill's peer is like, oh, he'll still come talk to you. I want to say it was 30 minutes after the locker room closed. I'm like hanging outside. Another player, Isaiah McKenzie walks by and he's like, what are you doing here? And I was like, I'm waiting for DeMar. I'm talking for this story. And Isaiah knows that the locker room's closed.

And he's like, oh, you're like a bee up his ass. And I was like, okay, like, tomorrow, please still talk to me. I'm so stressed. He finally comes out. I can tell he's tired. I can tell it's been a long week. And so I'm a little too like, I don't want to like, if he's tired, but he came back from me, I don't want to push it. Talked for like 15 minutes about all things of like, you know, his relationship with Dane, his family, what Pittsburgh meant to him the way it shaped him and why he gives back. And, you know, even just to start with the fact that he came 30 minutes after locker room closed to make sure he talked to me to make sure I got everything I needed, no matter what he said, that would have gotten. on such a long way and just getting to learn so much from him that early in the season. You know, we've had reasons to check in since then of something that stood out to me so much

from that conversation was I was asking all about like, okay, well, like who from your family and friends is going to be at this game? It's in Buffalo, but like this community is so important to you. And I always love hearing when players are like, oh, I've got like all these people coming. And he kind of starts, he's like, my parents have a dilemma. I'm like, oh, I wonder what this is. He's like, my brother's in the playoffs. And I'm like, two things are kind of in my head. I know his brother is a lot younger than him.

And also it's early October. And so I'm like, what am I? What playoffs? Yeah. Right. So I was like, but I started together. I was like, how old is your brother remind me? Because I was pretty sure.

I was like, am I misremembering? And no, he goes, oh, he's seven, but my dad's the coach. And so he's got to be there. Like he's, this is important. And I was like, okay, I do love that. But like your NFL game takes backseat to your brother's seven-year-old playoff game in October. And he's like, yeah, parents have two kids. That's how it is sometimes.

And he's so close with his little brother, Demer, and their relationships really cool too. And I just, you know, remembered loving that. Checked in a few weeks later. I believe they unfortunately lost the playoff round. Oh, no. But they will get them next year. and I think just kind of, you know, the loyalty he has to his family and friends to Dane Jackson, too, has, you know, really been on display.

And I think that's why there is such an incredible amount of support for him right now. With D'Mar and Dane Jackson, Dane also left the field in an ambulance earlier this season on Monday Night Football. And that was also just such a scary, scary situation. luckily there were updates a lot sooner that Dane was doing okay. He was back to the facility just a few days later, which, you know, when we watched it unfold, was really scary too. I'm very different from what we saw with D'Mar, but just you never want to see anything like that happened to anyone. And so my colleague, J. Skersky, had talked to Damar after the game.

He was obviously so distraught for his friend. And then so a few days later, when Dane was back at the facility, not to practice yet, but just to be there, I was talking to different guys around the defense of just, you know, how are you feeling? What does it mean to see your teammates? Someone you care so much about back here. And they're obviously all saying wonderful things about Dane. Of course, he's a great dude too super beloved there. And I go up to D'Mar being like, I wonder, you know, he's going to have such a helpful insight here. Like, what is he going to tell me? And so I jump over. I was like, hey, like, I just wanted to talk to you, you know, Dane's back today. What was it like seeing him back here? I can't remember exactly what I asked. But the first question to D'Marre, he kind of goes, yeah, I knew he was back and he was in a good mood because he started bugging me. And like, I say that in the most, like, it was the most brotherly thing of all.

Like, he, they love each other so much that he immediately was like, this dude's on my nerves today. He's back and getting on my nerves. So I was like, what? And at some point, I think Dane started kind of like across the locker room, like, waving and chirping at us. He's like, yeah, it's just like that. And I think just to see those real relationships too, when you love someone so deeply, you're ready to them be like, hey, I'm glad he is doing well. And also he's bugging me today.

That is a level of brotherhood that I think is so significant. And that's why, you know, really thinking about Dane this week as well. And just a testament, though, again, to who Damar is and all the ways that he's so tight with these guys on this team with his family. And, you know, they're all front of mind for me this week, too. Absolutely. It does make you think of, you know, a relationship like Damars and Dane Jackson's goes back through college where they're teammates, but also to childhood where I think they, They played against each other in Pittsburgh and ran in overlapping circles. But it just makes you think about these guys, these teammates, during a football season,

they see each other more than they see their families a lot of the time. And there's, you know, football teams are big and there can be guys on defense who don't know people on offense, but in at least certain pockets of teams, there is an incredible closeness. I know you were busy yesterday trying to get back from Cincinnati and there's been so much going on and still just so much we don't know about whether or not they have a game to prepare for

and how all of that is going to go down. But Catherine, what is your understanding of how the bills are handling all of this and dealing with all of this? Yeah, I mean, they're hurting, obviously. I think, you know, as we talked about before, just seeing the real-time reaction. I know the bills have a lot of ways

to support their players behind the scenes, kind of like a multi-pronged way of player support and mental health is, of course, a big part of that. So, you know, I hope guys are comfortable tapping into all those resources this week. Obviously, the league reminded teams of resources for every team, too, because the bills are the most impacted by this, but it's scary for everyone.

You know, you've seen guys taking to social media, just kind of sharing their stuff about Damar. Terrell Dodson, a linebacker, I remember him tweeting last night just something of, I can't wait for Damar to be back and to see all this support he's gotten. And I, you know, I think I've been really struck by that of, I think Demar is someone who does a good job of, you know, letting people know he cares about them and vice versa.

But I think there is just a reminder this week of kind of like telling people what you need to tell them while you can. I mean, candidly, there was something I had meant to check in with Demar this week of like, oh, I wanted to let him know a Christmas gift I got, actually. We talked for a while about Happy Lamps a few weeks ago and, you know, the lights you use for seasonal depression. He had given me advice on where to put mine in my house. And I didn't know that you could get ones with alarms that do birds. And so I had, yeah, I think they're really important. And he and I had talked about it for a while and I had straight upset to him like, yeah, it feels weird

that I'm asking my parents for a light for seasonal depression for Christmas or something like that. and he laughed with me. Like, it was very supportive. And I got one. So I wanted to let him know this this week. But then just it's like, oh, I'll tell him next week. And I just remember thinking about that during those moments on Monday. And I, this is kind of like jumping around a bit.

But I also, you know, part of why this past week was a little chaotic was, you know, know, there was that snowstorm in Buffalo week, or excuse me, the snowstorm in Buffalo last week. And I think there's just been a lot happening, not to put all of these things in the same bucket, but just like a lot has happened to Buffalo the last stretch. Yeah. And I don't know. I think, gosh, there's just been a lot at once. And I think that was kind of why, you know, Dodson saying that about just like, I can't wait till he gets to see what, you know,

everyone loving him out loud for so long what that has looked like. I don't know. That really struck me and I know that took a lot of turns, but basically as to how the bills are doing, I really can't imagine what they're going through. And again, just hoping there's good news very soon for, you know, so so many reasons for DeMar, first of all. And then just thinking of what these guys are trying to do as they now.

navigate all this. It's, um, it's hard to imagine. It's really hard to imagine. And I hope it, you know, all the league has said is that the game is not being played this week. There are no current changes to the week 18 schedule. We'll see what happens. I think all that really matters in terms of that is that particularly the bills, but, but the Bengals too and really any team, I hope the players just only have to go back when they're ready. Life doesn't stop after trauma, but any good employer helps their people come back from that when they're ready to do it. I don't think it's for us to say or really possible for us to know when that is.

But I imagine and I certainly hope that the priority is just helping them figure that out. going back to playing sort of only after that point, which I'm sure is different for a lot of people. Yeah, I thought like Stefan Diggs, that just like that night for him

was so telling about like the way sort of players are a condition. And Catherine, I would love to hear your perspective because we were just watching on TV and it's like the first shot of Diggs is tears streaming down his face. And then they come back from commercial

break when they're saying the players are warming up and they're going to get a five minute break and then they're going to play and then they go to and it's showing Stefan Diggs firing it looked like. So I don't want to say this definitively because I don't know what he was saying, but it looked like he's trying to fire up his team or get them in the right headspace to get back on the field because it's like I was saying before, like they've seen their teammates have these catastrophic, life-changing, career-ending injuries before. And, you know, you get the thumbs up when I've heard other people say this. And it's so true, you get the thumbs up when they're on the stretcher or on the cart.

And that's everyone's okay signal to, all right, everyone clap. And then you can go back to enjoying football and watching the sport and put that to the side and deal with it later. And so to see like digs go from one thing to the other. And then obviously, you know, the footage of him going to the side. the hospital afterwards. It just goes to what you were saying where like it's like there needs to be someone checking in to make sure like where is everybody. Is this okay? You know, it's almost like players are conditioned to if given the opportunity. They're like, let's play or someone will come up with, you know, so and so would have wanted us to play. How much have we heard that or, you know,

and sometimes it's true. Sometimes it's not true. Not everybody is the same. So I do think that's important not only bills bangles whoever i mean there are people on various teams who knew him people who didn't know him who were just watching uh who were kind of going through those roller coaster uh of emotions and it's going to be different the next time they go out on a practice field or a game field but katherine just with digs like what was your read on kind of what was um happening there i don't know if you even have any any further information from watching from the press box but kind of what your sense was for what he and what the rest of the team were going through in that sort of strange period

where you weren't quite sure is this definitely getting canceled or is this temporary or what's happening here? Yeah, it's a good question. And for transparency, I do think my mind went flying for parts of this. But I, and I wasn't hearing what they were saying on the broadcast in real time,

kind of saw some of that later about the five-minute period. But we did see players from the Bill's defense go to kind of warm up for a bit. And I remember just feeling very jarred by that of, you know, what is happening here. I do think to your point, there is something to be said for, you know, trying to have a rallying cry or something like that. But that felt so different than what this was.

And I, you know, it seemed almost at first, if I'm, what I'm remembering, more bills, players from the defense going to kind of stretch a bit than Bengals players quite yet. And I don't know exactly what they were hearing or being told. There's, you know, been some confusion on that. But just remember seeing that and being like, I don't understand what's happening. I don't really understand what I'm watching, what I'm doing here in this role. Luckily, shortly after that is when teams went to the locker rooms. Right. Yeah. So I don't know exactly. exactly what Stefan Diggs was saying there. The team was also, you know, all kneeling together a little bit before that, too.

So they were in a group there first kind of talking through stuff. And yeah, I don't know. It was, I keep just saying jarring, but that's kind of what it was of, it was just very different of, you know, even just other injuries that I've covered. there was something so different about this one. And I think there is a certain conditioning to, oh, we have to compartmentalize and go back to this, but I don't know that that's healthy for everyone.

Sometimes that can be the right move for a person. I, you know, everyone, a response to something traumatic is going to be different for everyone. And I think that's important too, but that makes it, you know, then when it's an entire team and playing a game, it's very different than just kind of the individual decisions of what do I need to process this here. So, you know, I think it was absolutely the right call not playing the game. I can't imagine what that would have looked like.

So, yeah. Yeah, there is still some confusion about what, where that idea that there was a five-minute warm-up period beginning. It came from, Joe Buck, obviously said on the ESPN broadcast, you know, stated that as fact several times, has since reiterated that their rules analyst John Perry got that information from the league. Troy Vincent from the league said that that was never something that they put into action. So there's conflicting information there. just using your eyes, it seems as though there were people on the field who were under the impression that they should be warming up again, which you would, I think one would imagine, is something you

only do if you think that the game is starting again. And it looked like the coaches in particular understood that their teams were not going to keep playing football and that that didn't make sense for anyone. Obviously, the game got canceled. I think that that's the, that was the obvious right move and the obvious right move eventually did happen. Maybe we'll, we'll learn more at some point about why there's conflicting information from, not just the main ESPN broadcast, but the ESPN de Portes broadcast had the same information. So did Westwood one on the radio. To be frank, when there are conflicting stories. I think sometimes it's healthy to take the league's point of view

with a bit of a dose of skepticism, but they are saying that that was not something that came from them and all we really know is that different parties are saying different things about that. Obviously, I think if their initial response was to tell those players that they should go play football again immediately, that's concerning to me. I can't imagine.

how that that was anybody's initial reaction to that situation. The important thing ultimately is that nobody kept playing football on Monday. And, you know, I think the next thing that they have to figure out and that we all have to figure out is Ryan Clark, who I thought was really poignant on ESPN with Scott Van Pelt after the game, I saw him tweet out the other night, just the next snap, with football will be one of the scariest snaps we've ever watched. And whether that's for the bills, for any other team, how we watch, or more importantly, how the players play coming off of this, which I really do think is the most terrifying

moment that we've seen on a football field, at least in decades, how that's going to go. feels like a really open question and to be transparent to something that I'm really struggling with, just how, you know, players in particular have an unparalleled, I think, ability to compartmentalize. As Catherine said, I don't know how healthy that is, but I do think it's necessary to play this sport, to play a sport where, look, we have this guy who's fighting for his life. He was playing in that game because of a neck injury to Mike a Hyde. He was playing. He was playing on a field and taken to a hospital where we saw two attack of Iloa suffer what looked like a brain injury and go to the same hospital earlier this year. Catherine, you just told us so

poignantly about his friendship with Jane Jackson, who had the really scary neck injury that also had him leaving the field in an ambulance earlier this year. Like, again, I think that there's so much dissonance in this is such an extreme event and it's also an event that is is so thoroughly intertwined with the violence of this sport which is inextricable from what it is and what makes it what it is and I just I don't know how I don't know how to turn the page from that and I also know that most of our history of watching this game tells us that people turn the page faster and and with more ease than you think possible. I don't have anything to say about that other than just it makes me uncomfortable.

I think it makes a lot of us uncomfortable. And we can just acknowledge that discomfort right now that we're even sort of talking about how to turn the page or return to a game and entertainment product while someone is, you know, struggling to live. I don't know, Sheel, this is sort of an impossible. I don't know what my question is. I don't know what the right thing to say or where to land is. But what does all of this have you thinking about the next time that we turn on a football game

and try to cheer and celebrate and be entertained by this thing that we all love? Right. It's sort of a constant question that fans probably deal with. anyone who covers the league deals with, like anyone sort of involved in it, sort of football is a part of your life. Like the majority of the time, it's this fun,

entertaining. There are positives. I mean, just what Catherine was talking about, the relationship with players and the personalities. And, you know, the three hours a day,

three hours a week, you're watching your team on Sundays, like intoxicating. We make our living off of talking about it and writing about it. And then there's the, obviously the other harsh, violent, not talked about enough part of it. And this, even this to me is like different than that.

You know what I mean? Like the concussions and guys suffering career ending injuries is sort of different where this wasn't like that hit that you're like you were mentioning at the top, Nora, where I thought about that too, like that hit where you're just like, that's the one that it's going to be so violent and so bad that it's going to change everything. And we don't have all the details with this one because it was cardiac arrest. You know what I mean? It was like a little different than those other ones.

But I think that is something that certainly I have struggled with in the passion. Do you want to like commit a career or a lifetime to a sport that has kind of warts aren't even the right words, but the negatives are so, so serious compared to some of the other things, the other sports you could be writing about other things you could be doing in your life. So that is sort of a constant. And I thought Ryan Clark was like you mentioned, it was great about it after the game just talking about it and saying that he didn't even think it was possible to die at 24 when he was playing in the NFL. That wasn't even a thought that crossed his mind.

And then just thinking of DeMar Hamlin's mom, how many times has she watched him, you know, play a game. So it's tough. It's something everyone's, you know, she goes to the stadium that night, excited to watch your son play Monday night football. And this is where she is now. So I think it's going to be tough for everybody. There's no right answer. If you're, you know, some people will move on right away. Others will not. And I don't have any like great closure or, or conclusion to offer with it. It's just kind of like everything to me is just sort of wait and see mode right now from one day to the next, one hour to the next,

hoping that he's okay, hoping that you see a tweet that, you know, things are moving in the right direction. I heard Dominique Foxworth on ESPN talking about this. And I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't offer any sort of neat conclusion. It doesn't offer any sort of real satisfaction. I don't think that exists in this case.

but he was saying that it was important to him, you know, as someone who used to be involved in the NFLPA and obviously played and has seen, has seen not situations like this, but just has seen catastrophic injuries up close on a football field. And he was saying that it was important to him to use this story to pivot a little bit to some of the player safety issues and how that relates.

to the NFL's labor issues. And it's not always an easy pivot to make because I think some people roll their eyes a little bit at, you know, this isn't what this is about right now. It's, we should just be thinking about DeMar. But I do think it's important to note that this was a moment where we can see that at least in my view,

um, the risk reward calculus of this sport is off. the discomfort is that I don't know that a risk-reward framework for an entertainment product is even right. Like at a certain point, that's just gladiators. But it is a framework that we use to figure out how to ask people in a lot of walks of life in this country to put themselves in harm's way or in risky situations for some sort of assessed benefit. But what Dominique pointed out is that Demar Hamlin is in his second year, which means that he has not qualified for any of the benefits that come with being a former NFL player, like five years of health care after you stop playing, like a pension. First of all, for any player who plays a sport, I think five years is completely inadequate.

They should have lifetime health care. We've just seen a really clear example of what can happen. and the idea that you have to, that you don't earn that just by stepping onto a field where something like this can happen, I don't think makes sense. I don't think any of that makes sense because now I think in a situation like this

where it's high profile and everybody's watching, I cannot imagine. And hopefully, Damar is able to recover and not have lasting effects and live a totally normal and productive and amazing life. But if he isn't, I cannot imagine the league not saying, oh, we'll cover you. That shouldn't have to be a decision.

These guys are in harm's way every time they play football. And that just shouldn't, that should be automatic. And these things are collectively bargained. And I hope that people remember this the next time there's a bargaining situation for the players because public perception has a real role in leverage in those situations. And if people don't get themselves on the side of the players in a sport that still has the largest disparity by far of a major American sport between the league's profits and individual compensation, if people don't remember things like this and connect them to being on the side of the players, then I think that risk-reward calculus remains just ridiculously off-base without things like guaranteed contracts,

again, with that disparity between what the average NFL player is getting relative to what the league and ownership profits are. Again, I just, framing it as risk and reward doesn't feel perfect in any sense. but if we do and that is a common thing to do and it's how we figure out what to do in a lot of situations I just I it's just off it's just not we just saw that the risks are pretty infinite so I know it seems like football players make a lot of money

but I I just don't think that that's the right way to think about it no I think there was no easy way to figure out just kind of how to process all of what we feel about this sport within a game. I feel like I kind of, to that point, was thinking both about what happens to players when they're done playing. And also, before they play too, I mean, so many guys, they love football, but also like,

this is a way to, you know, this is also life changing for them and their families. And so I think just kind of, that was a lot of what I was thinking about, too, of both, you know, health care when you're way done playing this sport, but also. all the reasons ahead of making it in the NFL on top of a love of the game, on top of everything else of why this can be changing for a person and for their family. You know, there's times where we see a lot of good come from that too. I think we're about to see incredible stuff coming through DeMar's Foundation. And that is because of, in part, because of the platform that NFL players have.

It's not the only factor, but that amplifies it, of course. And so, you know, I think it's hard to distill some of this of, you know, oh, why might a person play a sport that has these risks when there are so many factors before and after a person's career too in, you know, a person's life. And multiple things can be true at the same time, right? Like everything that I've read and that you have told us about, Damara tells us that this is a person who absolutely loves playing football and really thwart. drives off the game. I also read Ty Dunn had written a piece about him that acknowledged that one of the moments in his childhood, which, you know, he grew up in a rough part of Pittsburgh and was familiar with gang violence and, you know, lost friends to gun violence at a young age and was part of a community that, you know, he was looking for a way out of in a lot of ways.

And one of the moments where he really committed to football was he, his family had worked incredibly hard and was able to send him to, I think, a private school. And one of his teammates and classmates was Lynn Swan's son. And seeing their house indicated to him what could happen if he was Lynn Swan's son. what could happen if he played football and how that could change his life and change his family's life. And in some ways, that's a really inspiring story. In some ways, to me, that's also a sad story because there should be more options for someone like that than just saying, this is what I'm going to do. And that doesn't mean that he loves it any less and it's complicated.

Again, a lot of things can be true at the same time. But I think, I just think you're really spot on, Catherine, to point out that, yes, we should absolutely think about what happens after, but what happens before. And why the risk-reward calculus is what it is. It's all messy, but it all, it's all related. And I think that's why this is, you know, it's one of many reasons why this is just tough to sit with while we, wait and hope for good news. Thank you so much, Catherine, for joining us and telling us a little bit

more about DeMara and what a great person he is and she'll appreciate your time and working through some of this stuff, as we've said a bunch of times. It's not easy. And we'll continue to do it. candidly, I think we don't quite know what the upcoming schedule for the show is. We're obviously waiting and hoping and figuring out how the league is going to handle this, how the bills are going to handle this, how we're going to handle it. But we will obviously keep everybody posted on any developments. And last but certainly not least, we are thinking of you tomorrow, thinking of his family, and hoping very strongly for all the best. This has been The Ringer NFL show.

Thank you, as always, to Stefan Anderson for production on this episode and to Arjuna Ram, Gapal, and Connor Nevins for additional production supervision. We'll be back soon.