The Ringer NFL Show - Who Won the Draft, Biggest Steal, Best Fit, and More Draft Superlatives | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: April 26, 2020

Draft expert Danny Kelly and Mallory Rubin join Kevin in doling out superlatives for the 2020 NFL draft, including best draft, worst draft, steal of the draft, most shocking slide, weirdest Skype presence, and more. Host: Kevin Clark Guest: Danny Kelly and Mallory Rubin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And if you have the means, it's an unbelievably great and useful cause that helps our hospital heroes, emergency workers, and local restaurants. Please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen and it's a charitable donation. Once again, that's the ringer.com slash WC. It's the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. I am Kevin Clark, joined today by Draft Superstar Danny Kelly. Queen of the Draft, Mallory Rubin.

How are you doing, guys? Doing excellent. Just delighted to be here with you both, got to say. So we learned a lot about football this weekend. We learned a lot about the interior of Cliff King's Brace Holm. We learned about Adam Gase's child's ability to do a Rubik's queue quite quickly, actually. And that was phenomenal to see. And we learned what the NFL's going to look like in 2020, even though if there might not be crowds and everything might be different.

But we know who's going to be on what team. And we're going to break it down. So we have a bunch of superlatives today, things like best draft, worst draft, biggest reach, all that stuff. Weirdest pick. I guess you could call it. And we're just going to go through it. And yeah, I mean, we're going to, we are going to grade the draft that we just saw,

which I think, can we agree on this was one of the most fun drafts of our lifetime? Yeah. I was going to actually ask you guys that. Did you feel that it was like a very bizarre and strange thing? Or did it kind of just feel like a good, normal draft? Like, other than the. fact that everything was on Zoom, it felt like pretty regular. There wasn't anything too, too crazy. I mean, I think that those things were not necessarily mutually exclusive. There was obviously

something surreal about the experience, I think especially in round one on Thursday night, where there was this very disorienting aspect of what we were watching unfold in real time. But the normalization pace was quite rapid. You got acclimated really quickly. And then I think the overwhelming sensation for most sports fans and most NFL, you know, obsessives was gratitude that we got to gather together and soak up and celebrate sports, because obviously that's been an incredibly rare thing lately. And I think that so much of the talk heading into the draft about potential hacks and tech hiccups and all of that stuff, would teams not know how to assess players, would the mocks that we had been putting out

and digesting for weeks and months on end up being totally out of sync with reality? That stuff ended up not happening, which I think probably feeds into that sense of maybe surprising normalcy that you're describing, Danny. But I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that this draft like involved Roger Goodell changing into a new outfit every 15 picks and ingesting what appeared to be 4,000 M&Ms. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible stuff. We learned a lot about Roger Goodell this weekend, I think. Yeah. And I would agree. I have some thoughts. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to get to that later in one of our supportive categories.

I think that generally there was a shock at the beginning, which was like, why is Matt Patricia with this child? And then like on the third day, it was like, well, of course, oh, he's going to do the high five with this child. Like we all got used to it very, very quickly. And there were a lot of children. I will say, Brian Curtis and I talked about this last night. He tweeted it. This idea that this is going to somehow change how the NFL operates. Like Bob Quinn last night said this has given him new perspective on work-life balance.

He's going to try to achieve it. I don't necessarily buy that. That's all I said either. No way. We have 100 years of evidence that work-life balance will not be achieved in football, and I'm not sure that this draft is going to be stemming the tide. All right, let's get to the categories. Danny, we'll start with you.

Best draft. I got to go with the Cowboys. I think that what they did in the way that sort of the draft fell to them, you know, everybody goes into the draft sort of a plan, and it's kind of like the Mike Tyson thing. Like everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face. things happened for a lot of teams where I think the draft just didn't fall to them

and they had to panic and make weird picks opposite happened for the Cowboys in my mind they were just sitting there with I think guys that they likely had ranked very very highly on their board guys that were ranked very highly on my board they got way higher than I think or way lower in the draft

than expected CD Lamb fell to them at number 17 I think obviously not a huge need for them but just a coup because he's one of the best players in this draft bar none he was the number six player on my board. I love that guy. So getting him at number 17 was awesome. Just going down the list. My 33rd ranked player, they got at 51 and quarterback Trayvon Diggs. My 49th player, they got at 82. Neville Gallimore, who is on the all-name team and he's just explosive, exciting, interior

pass rusher type guy. And then my 75th ranked player, they got 179. I believe he fell mostly because of a lack of, I guess, elite athleticism. But I think he's just a skilled pass rusher. and that to me is going to be a steal for them down the road. So, I mean, just, I love their draft. I think, you know, what they did. Oh, Tyler Baides, and I'm not sure I'm saying his name right, but the center from Wisconsin, coming into the 2019 season,

there was talk of him potentially being a first round pick. He kind of fell off, but he's just sort of, you know, a solid center prospect for them. Obviously, that's going to be important for them too. So, like, just looking at their draft, I think they hit a lot of their needs, and they got awesome value at like almost all of their picks. So I just think they hit a home run.

Yeah. And this is, again, we talk so much about the NFL and how complicated it is and how complicated this draft was going to be. And Jerry Jones made these picks from a boat. He did. So remember that next time someone tells you how complicated this whole league is. Remember the Jerry Jones won the draft according to Danny Kelly from a boat. Yeah, I'm totally in agreement with you.

The way that this draft fell to them worked out really well. The Cowboys have a history of not overthinking it. And I think that that helps them, especially in a draft like this. I think that they already had a lot of roster talent coming into this. I think that the DAC-Prescott contract situation has the real possibility this year to be a huge drama and a huge calamity. And I think that there's a lot of outstanding questions about that. But leaving aside that, I think that the Cowboys have a real chance to compete in the NFL. see this year. And I think that they have, again, I've talked to this a couple times. I wish that

there was the capability, maybe a time machine to go back and not give Zeke Elliott that contract. But if Byron Jones had stayed there, maybe they're able to keep with some of their, I think Byron Jones was an important piece. And I have questions about their defensive backfield at this point. But overall, when I look at that 53-man roster, I think this is a team that should probably win 11 or 12 games this year. They quietly added Gerald Bucoy. Don'tari Poe in the interior of their defensive line. I mean, they made some savvy sort of under the radar type freedom moves too.

So overall, yeah, I look at this team as pretty complete. I think Dak Prescott's absolutely going to ball out this year. I totally agree. It's going to be fun. Yeah. And Mike McCarthy being not Jason Garrett is extremely huge. That is a huge wildcard, though. I will say.

It's something we didn't mention yet. Head coaching change can make a difference. And especially the year work. Oh, could? Oh, really? not having Jason Garrett could make a difference. Yeah, I suppose you could look at it as a positive for sure. But it's also potentially a negative because, you know, especially in a year like this where they don't have a regular preseason

or a regular training camp or any of that, that could be in effect. But overall, the talent level, yeah. And they have, yeah, I think that's the biggest outstanding thing is how does Mike McCarthy establishes, quote, unquote, culture via Zoom? And I think that there's a lot of outstanding questions with that. Mallory, where do you put the Cowboys right now after this draft in the NFC pecking order? I thought the draft was tremendous.

I agree with everything you guys said. I absolutely cannot believe that C.D. Lamb fell to them at 17. Days later, it still feels like a collective fever dream that we all agreed to engage in together. And we talk about this all the time, Kev, you emphasize this consistently. The teams that win don't overthink it. Smart teams make smart decisions. And it doesn't always have to be about position of need. Sometimes it's about value and the talent that you can't.

pass up. And sometimes it could be about both of those things at once. And I think that's a great segue into my pick for this draft. I almost picked this team, but I was going to let you have it. I kind of wish that one of you had picked it so that I didn't have to do the shameless Homer thing. We're not going to let you off the hook like that. We're not going to let you off the hook. I'll get the Ravens stock out of the way up top and then I'll move on to other things, I promise. The Ravens had a hell of a draft. They really did. I love all. Almost every part of the draft, you know, entered with nine picks, exited with 10 pretty strong selections. And given the overall strength of the roster, I talked about this before the draft, I would have been in favor of packaging some of that draft capital to try to move up to get an elite receiver.

Because you're probably not going to have nine or in actuality now 10 rookie draft picks, not to mention the undrafted free. agents that they sign. All of those players are not going to make the team and end up having an impact. Package some of that capital, get a SAR. That didn't happen. And so what did happen, I thought was really smart and savvy. Aside from my Henry Rugg's obsession and desperate wish, which I knew was never going to happen. The player who I most wanted to end up on the Ravens was LSU, linebacker, Patrick Queen. And the fact that he fell to them at 28, is actually a marvel to me. I'm in shock still.

Their biggest need was inside linebacker, and they got a start at that position. I think that, you know, D.K. obviously talked a lot about this while assessing Queen in his draft guide and throughout the draft run-up process. But to me, the fact that he's a guy you look at and say, not as experienced, doesn't have quite as much college tape. I look at that as a positive on a team like the Ravens,

you know, a team with a proven track record of taking talent and molding it into actual production. And it's like all upside from here. The speed, the versatility, the instincts. I just think he's going to be exceptional right away for that defense. Then you move on a little bit deeper into the draft. I think that there are plenty of do they really need J.K. Dobbins detractors out there for that second round pick. But to me, you know, again, Queen in the first round, that was a need at linebacker.

to me, the Dobbins pick and the queen pick represent this hybrid in draft strategies. You take need, the best available player for that need and for your scheme. But you also stick to that old school Ravens mindset that define their drafts for so long and still does, the Newsom to the Costa bridge of best value and best overall talent when it falls to you. The fact that they have Ingram and Hill, Edwards, all of this rushing talent already, doesn't mean that you shouldn't lean into a strength and plan for the future. So I was elated about that pick and especially given the speed that Davenz brings and the speed that you now see across that entire offense,

especially given some of the receivers that they were able to get a little bit later into the draft. And I think that time and time again, they did that throughout this draft. They got players who were falling below their draft stock. Dobbins, A&M, defensive tackle, Matabouquet, Texas receiver, Devin DeVernay. those were all day two picks. SMU receiver, James Proche, Iowa safety, Gino Stone and round seven. I mean, those are just incredible value picks throughout.

And they still managed in addition to all that to address some offensive line needs. That was obviously another area of need after Yonda's departure. And I don't think that Yonda is a guy that you're going to replace instantly, obviously. Talking about a Hall of Fame, exceptional. And a guy who had apparently,

apparently he had multiple backup power generators, if needed, Yanda. Justin Tucker was ready. Justin Tucker was ready to drive them to Harbaugh and DeCasta. That's how you know you have a strong, tightly knit group there, Kev. But they did start amassing bodies. Can I stop you right there?

Please. Does everyone who plays or works for the Ravens live in one forest? What are you're talking about? So they, the, DeCasta and Harbaugh are backdoor neighbors. I don't know if you saw this and they could go talk. And then I guess Yanda's got,

is on the other side of the forest with backup generators. Justin Tucker is his driving between them. I just imagine now that they're in some sort of Ravens Village. It's like Robin Hood. Maybe so. Baltimore County, you hop on the beltway, you know, pick up a crab cake,

bag of crab chips, some burger cookies, maybe some otter buying cookies, drop off a generator for your friends and your teammates and call it a day. So Mel Kiper had this. Mel Kuiper said that he had all five of the day two, picks at least 20 spots higher on his big board.

That's the kind of value that they were able to get. Yeah. Right. It was smart teams. It's exactly what you said. They took the guys who were following who were good and got them at spots where they were steals almost across the board. So that's a good draft in the Ravens.

Now, I found it funny. You add speed on offense. You add pass rushing and run defending on defense. You start to add bodies on the line. I found it funny after the Ravens lost to the Titans that I got a bunch of questions on the pod and I got some like when I do a radio shows wherever what do the Ravens need to get over the hump well the the Ravens were the best team of football for most of last year they had the MVP like they just happened to lose a game and then Mahomes took that and and ran with it with the Ravens

out by after the Tennessee game so here's my question what's different about this season as opposed to last season in January with with the pieces they now have is there anything where you point to and circle us and say this this Ravens team will change dustly after this weekend It's a good question. It's a fair question. I mean, again, I don't think that it's anything about the roster that has inhibited them in the playoffs the last couple years. I really don't. Certainly not last year.

You're talking about a 14-win team. Yeah. Just a weird game. It was just a weird game. Some of it is, I think, you know, I have spent a lot of time this offseason thinking about Marlon Humphrey's post-game comments. You know, what are people going to say about you? They're going to say we're a bunch of losers. That's the hurdle now.

is getting over that feeling that they have, that anxiety about whether they can win that big game in the playoffs. And as soon as you do it once, it's gone forever. I mean, unless you're Clayton Kershaw, who I still feel bad for all the time. Got to get you that baseball reference. You love, Kev. I love it.

I love baseball. Okay. All right. So now mine. So I look at the draft through a bunch of different prisons, right? And I think that there's teams who could say they won the draft in their own little way. I think that you look at a team like the Minnesota Vikings who strangely, not strangely, but they had 15 picks, which is the most they've ever had. And the reason that they did that was because they wanted to, they knew that for agents, undrafted for agency was going to be so difficult that they wanted to just get all the guys they would have signed an undrafted free agency on day three of the draft, which I think is an interesting strategy.

It's low risk in the grand scheme of things. And I think that in a weird year, that's the kind of forward thing you need to be doing. I think the bucks got a lot better. For what the Jaguars want to do, they took a lot of great athletes who can develop. And I think that they're maybe taking a step back this year. Maybe they're Trevor Lawrence candidates next year. And that's a great draft. I think the Jets had an awesome draft.

I love the Jets. And you look at just, you know, I think you have to include players who are traded. You know, the Niners had a great draft because they got Trump Williams and they got the picks they needed. And so I think there's a lot of different ways you look at who won the draft. Having said that, the team I think I came way the most impressed with this weekend. And I know that this is so chalky because they have the first overall pick. But when I think about the Bengals' first three picks, Joe Burrow, T. Higgins, Logan, Wilson, out of Wyoming. That's a team where I know their identity going forward now.

And I think it's really cool. So Joe Burrow is Joe Burrow. We've done enough talk about Joe Burrow. T. Higgins, Bob McGinn had a, Scouts saying he probably has the best hands in the draft. PFF has him, his 15 receptions of 20 or more yards downfield were the most among any Power 5 wide receiver. This is a target Joe Burrow needs.

What did we say about Joe Burrow coming into this? He's best at identifying mismatches. And now you give a guy who maybe has the best catch radius in the draft, a huge catch radius. And you give him to Joe Burrow in to go five wide, maybe if you wanted to. You have AJ Green, obviously. I really just, I really enjoyed this. this T. Higgins thing.

And from where I look at it, this was so deep. I saw a quote on the athletic earlier this week where they said that this would be the deepest receiver group in, well, maybe ever, but there's not a Julio Jones or a Calvin Johnson. So it really just comes down to what type of receiver you want because there's not some huge talent where you're going to say, okay, this guy is a generational player. It's more of there's just a bunch of really good guys and fit is going to be really important. So I'm on this T. Higgins thing.

I think it's going to help Joe Burrow run the type of, offense that relies on vision and mismatches that he wants to. And then Logan Wilson, look, as soon as Logan Wilson was taken, Daniel Jeremiah said that he might be the steal of the draft. You know, he's got, he's got 240 pounds, he's athletic, he seems to know where to be all the time. I think that this, I think that a lot of times with winning the draft, we look at all seven rounds. And a lot of times, you know, if there's a reason of guy is a fourth, fifth, sixth round pick, so I tend to not look at that. I look at the first, maybe four rounds, three rounds. And when I look at it that way, I'm in on what the Bengals have done.

Akeem Davis Gaither from Appalachian State is also one of my favorite players in this whole draft. He was ranked 50th on my board. They got him at 107. He was one of the surprise day three fallers. I think he was the first pick of day three. So he's another guy to add on to that list. I think he's just really, really fun. He kind of reminds me of Shakeem Griffin in the way that he can be used. He's a pass rusher specialist type guy, but he can also play like a little off the ball stuff, safety, linebacker type thing. So he was one of my favorite day three picks,

Barnon. So yeah, I think they killed that trap too. What happens now with Andy Dalton? Right. So Zach Taylor has come out and said because of the weirdness of this year that there's an argument for keeping them.

Right. Do you believe that that's true? Well, I think that in theory it is, I'm sure that part of the rationale is that they just haven't gotten a good enough offer. No one tried to give them a second round pick whatever. I think that they, I think there's been a lot of weirdness the whole time. I mean,

they, they didn't let him really pursue a trade last year when he was benched for Ryan Finley in the middle of the season. I think the way they've handled the Dalton thing could have been better. I think that, I mean, I understand the part about the weirdness of the off season, but on the other side, like, Dalton's not actually going to get to hang out with Joe Burrow until quite late in the, in the process here. It's not like he can, you know, come next week and, and start, putting him under his wing here. Maybe they can Zoom or Skype or text or whatever, but it's not the same sort of mentoring situation

that there would be in normal years. I think Andy Dalton can still be a really productive quarterback in the right scheme. And I think that maybe I think it was Mike Tannenbaum was on the show a couple weeks ago. And I think he made the comment that you almost end up with a Sam Bradford-like trade ship where you wait until August 15th and then someone has an injury or someone doesn't like their depth chart

and they panic and all of a sudden they give up. In Bradford's case, it was a first, but with Dalton, probably more realistic would be a second. I think having Andy Dalton in your roster is better than giving him up for nothing. There was a reason that I predicted Jordan Love would go to the Packers. There was a reason that I think Jalen Hertz makes sense for the Eagles. And that's it. There were 28 teams probably that had pretty set plans of quarterback. And you knew some of these guys were going to be expendable.

Andy Dalton is one of them. James Winston now has to go be back at which I think is the best place for him, maybe aside from the chiefs with Andy Reid to learn under him. But I think going to a quarterback guru, getting his stock up a little bit, I think that's a great idea. And so I think that that's where you almost think that Cam Newton should do a souped up version of that, which is go somewhere with the good coach, but a place where he has a path to start. And I'm not sure where that is right now, especially with the Chargers dropping a quarterback in the top 10.

But there's just more competent quarterbacks than there are spots. We knew that. And that's why we saw not only Jordan Love going to a place with one of the most talented starters in football, and not only Jalen Hertz going to a place with obviously a pretty set of quarterback, but Jacob, Easton, and Jake Fromm dropping. Like, this is a very weird year to be a quarterback at all. Even if you are a starter nailed on, your team might draft a guy. So this is what happens when there's an oversupply of quarterbacks.

It's never happened in my lifetime, I don't think. And this draft reflected that. Worst draft. Danny Kelly. Yeah, so I'm picking the same pick. I'm picking the Packers and it felt like pretty obvious pick for me. And I think it's a philosophical thing. Like you could get behind the Packers decision making from a long-term perspective.

But to me, I always try and think of the NFL and I know GMs maybe don't do this, but like in three-year like windows, it's like this makes absolutely no sense for 2020 at all for them. Right. And you have an aging quarterback. I personally believe you absolutely have to maximize his window because you don't know what's going to happen three years down the road. Your entire roster could be different than three years. So to me, it just made no sense for them to do what they did. They traded up into the first round.

Again, it's different from the Brett Favre scenario where it kind of just fell into their lap. They traded up into the first round to get Jordan Love. The second round, they drafted a running back that will pair with their superstar running back. and possibly make that group a net negative. Like, he's not as good as Aaron Jones. And having him on the field is taking Aaron Jones off the field.

So to me, that doesn't make a lot of sense either. Gives him a little bit more depth. But, like, is that really what you want early in the second round? No, or whatever it was in the second round. In the third round, they drafted an H-back, who is going to be, like, their Kyle Eustech type player. But he's going to be competing, I guess, with, you know, know, to get snaps with a lot of the tight end groups, he's not going to be a full-time player.

So to me, that just didn't make a ton of sense. Essentially, they got three, either backups or heavy rotational players. And for 2020, for a guy like Aaron Rogers who has been, you know, first of all, their relationship isn't, I would say, the strongest as it was. And now it's just going to be like very, very tense. I think it's going to be very interesting to watch this year. So anyways, he wanted some stars. He wanted some receivers.

And the greatest, you know, what we perceived to be the best deepest receiver class in years, they didn't draft a receiver. You know, I don't know. I just, to me, it just made no sense for what they're doing in 2020. Yeah, they had an interesting draft for 2022. Right. That's what this is. And it's honestly fucking bizarre. Like, Danny ran through it all.

But the Jordan Love thing has not improved with age. over the last three days in terms of how people are processing it. It's only gotten stranger, I think. And, you know, Danny, to your point about Rogers and the window, I think one of the things that makes this so confounding, despite what I think we all agree with

that Kevin has already said about amassing quarterbacks and how important that is in the NFL these days, whichever way you cut it, it doesn't make sense. If you say, well, you have a 36-year-old quarterback, so you need to maximize and build the best possible team around him that you can now. And again, this is the team that went deep into the playoffs last year. Like, they're not that far away.

Couple pieces, couple smart decisions, and you can maybe get over that home. And you don't do that in any meaningful way at the top of the draft to help your team now. Then you cut it the other way and say, well, maybe the window isn't that urgent because they still have Roger signed for a few years. Well, then how long is Jordan Love going to sit on the bench backing them off? You know, and again, we've exhausted this. And the rookie contract. Yeah, we don't need to continue to rehash and re-ligate the same point about how this is not the same as when they took Aaron Rogers with Brett Farv still on the team for all of the reasons we've already gone through. The Dillon, the AJ Dillon pick was definitely one of the weirdest in the entire draft.

I mean, I'll read a little quote from PFF to you guys. Boston College's A.J. Dillon does not rank inside the top 250 on PFF's draft board. He ranked outside the top 110 on the consensus board, and he was selected at pick number 62. It's not what you want. And I think that the failure to address a massive position of need by not taking a wide receiver is honestly like borderline malpractice. 36 wide receivers were taken in this draft, and the Packers did not select a single one of them. I just don't understand that. They must be really high on Devin Funches, like really, really high on him.

That's supposed to make us feel better? after the draft, I believe that either the head coach or the GM, I can't remember who said it. Every time that they had a chance to draft a receiver, they said they didn't think it would be an upgrade for the group that they have or something along those lines. It was like, that's some confidence in the Allen Luzards and, you know, Devin Funches is of the world. So we'll see.

Really weird. I'm surprised we're not three for three here, Kev. Who are you going with instead? Well, I just don't, I didn't want to go three for three. but I also would like to briefly defend part of the strategy of the Packers. Go for it. Which is they many times said they believed in their board. And they believed in best player available.

And every GM says they believe in best player available. And you don't, when you actually see what best player available looks like, it ends up looking a bit like this. And it reminds me, I wrote this in my column on Friday, but it reminds me a little bit of, I was talking to someone who counts cards at a casino. one time and they were like when you do this you will look crazy because you'll be doing something that is just totally irrational because you're trying to get the you know the the cards right and

people will look at you like you're crazy and that's kind of what best player available is it's a strategy that sometimes makes you look like you have no idea what you're doing having said that having said that the problem i have is not best player available the problem is the actual players and the strategy and with the packers it looks like they're trying to become san francis go on the fly and the way their team was built already, I just feel like you can do that as a longer term project, but you don't need to do it right now. And I feel like the part of the story of the last couple of years in football is just taking what you have and molding it a little bit to what you want. You don't have to just completely, you know, a football team is like,

it's like a huge tanker, right? And it takes a while to turn that stuff around. And you can start doing it, but you can't do it all in one draft. And I would have, I would have, I would have, liked them to almost go half and half a little bit and say, okay, this is for Aaron right now in the 2020 team. This is for a longer term project to make this a bulky physical team. So that's my problem with the Packers draft, but I understand the philosophy behind it.

I did not like the Chargers draft. I did not like, and this is coming from someone who tends to love the Chargers picks, and I love the Chargers talent, and there are another team that tends to not overthink it Um, when Joey Bosa was available, you take Joey Bosa. When Darwin James was slipping, you take Darwin James. This is not complicated.

And I like Tom Tolusco as a GM. I did not like the Justin Herbert pick. I, I, I'm not a huge Herbert fan just generally. And Kenneth Murray is fine. Um, this is from PFF. Basically, Patrick Queen is a bet was the better off ball linebacker available with that pick. Murray was 62nd on their board.

And they traded up to the point that, and this is the point they make as well, the two players at 37 and 71 probably would have provided more value than Kenneth Murray. So from a value standpoint, I didn't love it. I don't think they got much better. I think that they are a team that was on the cusp of, it's hard to say any AFC West's teams on the cusp of competing when Patrick Moreham was in that division, but they were on the cusp of being a quite good team like they were two years ago. I just don't know what they did to improve themselves for 2020 or even down the road this year. Yeah. I do not. I do not like taking Kenneth Murray ahead of Patrick Queen, obviously. I think we're all in strong

firm agreement there. But I think I like that pick a little bit more than you did, Kev. And I really liked the KJ Hill pick for them, the receiver out of Ohio State in the seventh round. I think that he's a very technically precise receiver and somebody who could end up looking like, if not a draft steal, at least like a productive contributor that they got very late. So that kind of saves them from being in the Packers territory. For me, though, I'm with you on the Herbert pick, as we've already discussed. It's just a little underwhelming overall. Yeah.

The draft or Herbert? Both, both. I would say, I was talking about the whole draft class. I agree with Mal on the KJ Hill. Like, he was very, very good at the senior bowl. He didn't run well, so that kind of dropped him down boards, but very good route runner. Could be like an early contributor. The Gilman pick, I think, is pretty fun.

He was good at the senior bowl too, but like if you're talking about a couple late round picks like that you like, I think that tells you enough about the whole draft to, that's what it tells you about the draft. Like, I don't think that they hit a home run with this one. I wouldn't say they're maybe the worst, but I certainly feel underwhelmed about them.

And as a team that I think has a defense that could give them the chance to really, like, compete in the NFL next year. Like, it just feels like this was a very long-term draft, I guess. kind of in the same, I guess, general region of the Packers. Okay. Weirdest pick slash, we're going to call this biggest reach and then we just decided to make it whatever we wanted to make it. Danny Kelly, weirdest pick. Yeah, so I know that you guys already discussed the Jalen Hertz pick for the Eagles. I just wanted to kind of add my two cents.

Philadelphia would like us to discuss it for quite a while. So to me this felt like a very much like a luxury pick for a team that did not. need to make that pick especially in like you guys were alluding to earlier like in a in a free agent class and in a scenario where they could have gone out and gotten like a Dalton for a backup or whatever they could have gone out and got Cam Newton who's still a free agent if they want to have that high level quarterback that can come in backup quarterback or as they like to call it second quarterback that can come in yeah and carry the team if Carson Wentz gets hurt which he obviously has gotten hurt a few times in his career then I like I completely

understand like them spending money or whatever and bringing in like a quality backup. I think spending the 53rd pick, to me that's still a premium pick on a on a developmental quarterback like Jalen Hertz. Um, a year after handing your quarterback a four year contract that, you know, a 27 year old quarterback too. He's not like old. So to me it just, it feels like a misallocation of resources personally. Um, even if they're going to use them on like the Taysom Hill thing, like that doesn't move the needle for me. So, I mean, it's never a bad thing to have good quarterbacks on your team. I understand their side of the thing.

But to me, it just was not a move that makes them better in the short term. And they're a team to me that is like the other teams we've been talking about. That has a chance to, like, had a chance to get like way better in this draft. And I think they missed on that one. Mallory, Jalen Hertz. I'm a Jalen Hertz fan. Same, to be clear. And yeah, no, no, of course.

And I think that we all are rooting for Jalen Hertz and are excited to see what he does in the NFL. Oh, uh-oh. Sounds like you're about to just destroy this pick. Doesn't mean the pick made a ton of sense. Yeah. I don't, I don't dislike it as much as as D.K. But certainly for the city of Philadelphia. Where it was in the draft.

They're not handling it. Yeah. It was confusing. It was not quite as confusing as the Jordan law of Aaron Rogers situation. And I think. Yeah. that's where you start to assess Philly, two things. One, Philly's draft overall, which I think is worth us talking about for a minute.

And also, Philly's established quarterback philosophy, which, Kevin, you were a bit of a scholar in the Philly QB 101. Or you've advanced a 201 at this point. Jeffrey Lurie told me that their goal is always to have a top 10 quarterback as their second quarterback. There you go. So on the one hand. Philadelphia won a Super Bowl with Nick Fawkes, the backup quarterback. They know as well as any team in the NFL the value of having somebody there who could step in and not only contribute but actually lead. The flip side is what played out after that, which was an almost inescapable narrative about how to handle that dynamic.

And so I think that aspect is what makes it a little bit odd to me to willfully opt back into the thing that you just worked hard to escape. But it's the NFL. Teams constantly do the same thing over and over again, even when it doesn't necessarily make sense to the rest of us. And it's hard to argue with the Super Bowl. So I like it a little bit more than some of the people who are melting down about it. But I do think that overall, like I'm going to talk about Justin Jefferson later when we get to another category here. But I thought that taking Jalen Rigger ahead of Justin Jefferson was strange.

And pairing that with what I thought was a bit of a reach for that, not I thought taking a receiver in the first round made sense, but for that particular receiver and then taking Jalen with the second pick was a little bit odd. And Philly's draft was one where throughout the entire three days I was constantly weaving in and out of how I felt about it. Like I had a lot of clarity about most of the other teams. It's like, do I love what they're doing? Do I despise what they're doing? And I'm curious to know what you guys think about where they netted out overall because I'm, obviously, especially with the quarterback, you tend to just assess it on its own, you being the collective football public. But how does this all fit together? How do all of the moves that they made

help them now and for the next few years? So Zach Barron, a friend of the ringer wrote a great GQ story about Jason Isbell the other day. And we emailed about it and he wanted some reassurance about the Eagles. And I said, I got a feeling how he's going to crush this one. Okay. Like let's, I feel like he's going to, you know, he's working from homes. He's going to get a little groove. And he said, thank you for the reassurance. And as the draft started to develop, I felt very bad about saying that to Zach Barney, getting more excited about this.

And then on day two, day three, the way it started to come together, I now feel okay about the Eagles draft. I now feel okay about, I still consider Howard Roseman to be one of the best value GMs in football. I'm going to defend the Jilline Hertz pick to a point. I understand. what they're trying to do with the quote what you know essentially what what charles robinson

reported which was it's it's going to be tasem hill on steroids press taylor the quarterbacks coach uh or the offensive assistant has talked about in the past how the next revolution is two quarterbacks at one time mike tannibal on the show said that maybe the ravens take jaylon hurts and and just break football which would just be unbelievable but i understand what they're trying to do and there's a case that they could revolutionize offense so much that this looks like a steel. Right. I'm not going to make that case.

I'm just throwing out that there's a case to be made. Yeah. I think I agree with you. No, but that's a great point, Kevin, because if something like that is even in the realm of possibility, then it does totally alter how you have to assess the pick. It changes your perspective, yeah. I think it's a high-ceiling pick.

And I understand the necessity. When I put out that quote from Jeffrey Lurie, they told me to yours about the second quarterback thing, I got a couple of responses that were the same across the board, which was, how about one linebacker before two quarterbacks? And I thought that was an interesting point. I understand that. But I think that it almost comes back to what we're talking about with the Packers.

You don't want to know what best player available actually looks like because it's this. And it stresses fans out. And it almost reminds me of the Paul D. Podesta line about analytics, right? Which is every owner says, I want to get on the roller. coaster. And then when the roller coaster starts to get scary, what you don't want is for an owner to say, I need to get off the roller coaster right now. You have to just complete the roller coaster, right? And that's kind of what best player available is for me. And I understand what they're trying to do. I'm okay with it. Mallory. Yes, sir. Weirdest pick. So,

do you guys hear about what the Patriots did in the fifth round? I heard about it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Should we talk about it for a minute? We sure can. Which part would you like to talk about? So the Patriots drafted a kicker in the fifth round. They drafted a kicker out of Marshall. Justin Rorwasser?

Danny, is that true? Sounds right. Is that pronunciation correct? I'll be completely honest with you guys. I did not study the kicking group at all. I saw him kick a 53-yarder to win a game. That's all I saw. And I saw some tattoos.

That's worth the fifth round. pick, don't you think? So a couple of things that we can run through here. Yeah. One is where they selected him. Now, the Patriots have a long and storied

history of taking specialists fairly highly in the draft and it's not actually that unusual when you're thinking about who's doing it, right? So it might seem strange. They drafted a long snapper. Stephen gets cows who's a fourth round pick It was a fourth round pick.

Yes. So it might seem strange when you first see the kicker pick pop up in the fifth round and you're like, Jake Fromm is still on the board? What's happening here? Which was a reaction that I had in real time. But when you factor in the Patriots philosophy, it feels a little less strange in that sense. So then you shift to the next factor, which is, was this the right kicker to take? Was this the right kicker to become the first kicker off the board?

Now, I don't know what the Patriots kicker study looked like, but I know that it's strange to me that Rodriguez Blankenship didn't get drafted. And Tyler Bass, yeah, ended up signing with the Colts, which I think will be great. Tyler Bass went in the sixth round. And the Patriots took somebody who did not have a draft profile on NFL.com. So that's neat and interesting. Then you get into the fact, and this obviously all packages together to make it just a very strange overall situation. In the wake of the pick, the discussion was not about his ability to help on the field. It was about his tattoos.

And he had to immediately defend himself to the press and tell the press that he does not, in fact, have a three percenter's tattoo, a right-wing militia group's tattoo on his arm. that's not where you want to be at any point. I don't, he said that he got it when he was very young and thought it meant something else and then developed into something. Yes, and that he will be covering it up. He will be covering it up. There's a lot more questions and answers, I would say, about the whole thing. Correct.

So obviously, Gaskowski's gone. They need a kicker. When you saw the kicking situation across much of the league in 2019, seems very valid to invest in the-yxask. position, but it's a why him and why their question, and then you compound it with the tattoo situation and also the fact that they did not draft a quarterback or a wide receiver, and it's just really odd. Yeah.

I'm also going to predict. It seems like it would have been very easy to not make that pick. Right. We're not making it there. And this is not a one-day story with the tattoos. Yeah. Like there's a, again, there are a lot of questions that are outstanding that will, be asked and that he needs to answer.

Weirdest pick from me, it's a tie. It's two first round reaches. Listen, a couple of years ago, actually my first day working for the ringer was the draft in Chicago. And I thought Jack Conklin was a bad pick. And at points, he looked like a bad pick. And that's why they didn't pick up his fifth year option and all that stuff. But he turned out to be a really good tackle.

And that was in Cleveland. And so I am giving the Titans some leeway on this. Isaiah Wilson, I think, was a reach. I think a lot of people agree with this. He's huge. He's 350 pounds. He needs to develop a little bit as technique. He's a third-year sophomore.

I don't think anyone had him in the first round. Maybe some folks did. I think McGinn had a quote from the athletic that was said that it would shock him if Isaiah Wilson went the first round. Mel Kiper says he saw the tools for Wilson and he saw the size. and obviously this stuff, but he questions Mel Kuyper whether or not Wilson can even start right away over Dennis Kelly, who's obviously a veteran. And I think I like Dennis Kelly. But if you're drafting guy in the first round and you can't beat out Dennis Kelly, I'm not sure why

he was a first round pick. That's all. And so he doesn't immediately replace, if he doesn't immediately replace Jack Conklin, I don't know about that value. And so again, John Robinson's proved me wrong before on this stuff. But that's just from a value standpoint, And if you wanted to get Isaiah Wilson, you probably could have gotten him a lot later. I would also say the same thing, but the 19th overall pick to the Raiders, Damon Arnett, 63rd on PFF's big board. This is what the Raiders do. I understand it.

When they like a guy, they go get them. This is part of the reason that a lot of people didn't like their draft last year initially is because they went up and got guys 20 picks early, 30 picks early. And I understand the strategy. They like these guys on the board and they get them. I just wish that, I don't know, you could have gotten Damon Arnett later. And so I don't think either of these guys,

by the way, Damon Arnett, he had some of the best metrics in football last year, like PFF, all the Sabre metrics, or Sabre metrics, analytics-wise, he is a great pick.

And he had some of the best pass-er ratings against last season. I am in as a player on Damon Arnett. I just didn't necessarily like the value for all. Danny, any nits to pick there? Yeah,

I mean, I think it felt like a reach. especially with some of the guys still on the board you know Christian Fulton ended up falling and Diggs fell a little bit obviously Jalen Johnson was a guy that I had ranked higher Jeff Gladney was a guy I had ranked higher that said I do think he's a good player

you definitely alluded to that I think he's a good player what I had understood and heard and kind of the whispers were that there was some off the field concerns about him like you know like the whatever we don't know any of the off field stuff because it's just something that teams have to deal with,

but there was concerns about that. So I think there was a chance he could have fallen. Ultimately, if I'm going off my board, it felt like a pretty solid reach. Then again, there was quite a bit worse reaches in the first round. Isaiah Wilson was certainly one of them based on my board. Seahawks made one in linebacker Jordan Brooks. This wasn't the worst reach, I think,

but with the depth of the cornerback class and I think you could say the same thing about AJ Terrell going to the Falcons. Both of those picks are just, I don't know. I guess those guys, the teams had convictions on those guys, but on the surface, they did corners, I get it. On the surface, it looked like a need-based reach.

But we'll find out, I mean, this is one of those things. We'll find out in a few years if it looks that way, but that's how it felt based on the information that we have today. Again, I think both these guys have the chance, Both of my guys have a chance to be a really NFL starters who contribute. And I don't think that they're necessarily bad players. It's just I think the best GMs not only find the best players,

but they get them a good value. That's what the Ravens have made their bones on. And that's what Bill Belichick has made his bones on. This is a value-based league. And I think they're halfway there. Again, I think the Raiders had, I love the Raiders draft in general, just the players they got. If we're just stacking up talent right now,

I love what the Raiders did. From a value standpoint, that's where I questioned it a little bit. Yeah. You know how I feel about Rugs. So obviously, that's a tremendous pick in my mind, though,

to illustrate what you just said, Kev, taking him at 12 overall and taking him before Judy and Lamb is where you start to go, hmm. Yeah. You know, I think that the Raiders had a very strange, like dissonance-inducing draft

where I really like a lot of the players they took, but when you start to look at where they took them and how it all fits together, it's a little bit more head-scratching. I will say, though, getting Lynn Bowden Jr. in round 3 is one of the picks of the draft.

I badly, badly, badly wanted him to end up in Baltimore. I love that pick. They're listing him as a running back, which I think is fascinating. Let it rip. The Raiders are. I hope now, does anyone disagree with me? I hope that Marcus Mariotas starts for them now. That's just the most fun offense. I don't even, I'm not even sure. I don't care if they're good or not. Like, that's not my concern. I don't care if anybody's good. I'm, I'm, I'm a neutral observer. I want, but from entertainment standpoint, that's where you get that. I understand the car stuff, you can get the ball in the hands of some of these guys and then they can,

they can catch and run. I understand it can all work. And I'm not sure if Mario da is the football answer, but from the entertainment side, yes, that's the answer. Kev, would you say you're rooting for the story? I'm rooting for the story. As always. All right. Next category, player we're not talking about enough. Pick, we're not talking about enough. No, you skipped one. What? We're only on number four.

Amazing. Oh, my God. I skipped the most important thing. No, because, no, because you guys had so few notes on this that I just scrolled right past it. You can't, you can't note what's in your heart, Kev, you know? This is over, this is overarching, can be anyone,

coach, player, GM, commissioner. who had the best Skype presence. Danny Kelly? One of my favorite moments on day two was the inexplicable Roger Goodell lounging on the chair with like his legs spread out. Danny, say,

say how you described this in the notes. Just say it. I'm almost certain. Well, okay, first of all, this is the Edibles version, Roger. Yeah, there you go. Edibles Goodell. Like when the edibles hit,

Like at some point late in the third round, the edibles hit. And Goodell just was like, okay, I'm going to lean back and just mail these in. And then he didn't come on the third day too, which is hilarious. Like he barely did anything in day three. He showed up. He showed up and it was just like, fuck this. To be real, like, I don't think he actually had edibles. This is my theory.

And I'm actually like extremely. Thanks for clarifying, Danny. I'm extremely confident in my theory that Roger Goodell at some point in the evening. like started having back spasms. He threw his back out. If you see how he's sitting on the chair. You've done this before. You've had back problems before.

I have back spasms that crop up like every couple of months. And the way he was sitting on that chair is like exactly how I move when I throw my back out. And so I think halfway through the night, he threw his back out. And then he had to take like muscle relaxers. And he was just like kind of high. Like it all adds up to me. So anyways, that was like. my favorite moment. It was absolutely

inexplicable. He's just like lounging it again like full on like spread leg crotch view of like the like you think they have like someone telling him like buddy sit up a little. It was so funny. I liked it. I don't think he was high. I think he was I think he was

living for the moment. I think he was getting more relaxed with everybody. He knew he knew that 16 million Americans were just taking it all in loving the virtual draft and he was saying I got this and he got more and more casual. He went from a jacket to a sweater to a quarter zip to then a t-shirt. This was all mapped out. The t-shirt of his wife's documentary. Full-on dad at the at the grill vibes by the end of this. It was remarkable to watch. I

really enjoyed it. You know, it can't be easy to have to stay on camera for that long. Like, it must be exhausting. And again, you saw the M&M jar and how many of those he was eating. And that gives you a little bit of a sugar boost, but when the crash hits, it really hits. Yeah, that's true. Goodell was in my consideration set here as well, as was. I think we would all consider it a dereliction of duty. He's not our pick, but we have to at least mention Andy Reid, right? We have to at least spend a moment talking about Andy Reed and the incredible aura that

he was cultivating and sending out into the ether for all of us to consume the layered, icy beverage, the shirts. Vibes guy. The artwork behind him. Incredible work. Another honorable mention for me. It was a Tommy, it was a Tommy Bahama commercial. And it was an effective one because here we are talking about it and how many.

My wife won't let me wear a Tommy Bahama and she's right to do it. Wait. Have you guys, you've tried to? Your wife edits your fashion choices? No. And you still are rocking the things you're rocking? Especially when I was younger. Especially when I was younger.

Like Tommy Bahama, you're issued Tommy Bahama when you're in Florida. Florida. Florida man, sure. Yeah. You just, here's a Tommy Bahama quarter zip. I actually have a Tommy Bahama quarter zip. That wouldn't worry about it.

But like, I have a, I have a number of Tomba. First of all, Tommy Bahama, their shirts, like if you have a small, it fits like a puncher. Like an extra large.

Yeah. Yeah, because they're four older gentlemen who are in the American South have, and have beach homes. And so there's people, those people tend to trend larger.

And so it's a tough, break to, you know, to try to pull off Tom Bahama as not a 60-year-old dad. And I think my wife has recognized that. She has veto power? Yeah, she does. Yeah, that makes sense. All right. Speaking of relaxation. Yeah. Mallory. My pick, I did consider the person you're going to pick, Kev, but I'll wait to share my support until you get to your pick. My pick is Cliff Kingsbury, who redefined quarantine vibes and what is possible

for a remote experience. This was, it could have come off as self-parity for somebody who for the bulk of his presence in our lives has been compared to Ryan Gosling and put in this

movie star heartthrob mold and yet he made it work flawlessly. It was like, Like being on a movie set, you could pick that house up and put it in Malibu and you wouldn't think twice about it. He spawned so many tweets, so many memes, so much thirst, aspiration. Mahomes, who of course played for Cliff at Texas Tech, tweeted, I'm trying to have a crib like Cliff. just absolutely exceptional.

The Honey Badger replied to that and said, no wonder they couldn't afford me anymore. Laugh my ass off. Amazing. Everybody was having so much fun. I mean, Cliff's crib inspired within hours. A Lego replica? A very involved.

I didn't see that. Lego replica. I'll slack you the tweet. It is absolutely remarkable. I'm going to drop this into Slack for you guys right now so that you can see it in real time. There's also a picture of Halo in there for you. There is. We've been sent two photos.

One is a picture of your cat being next to you during this recording. And one is Lego Cliff. Wow. They even got the grill down. It's amazing. At fast copy Lori Johnston. And there are multiple views of this Lego set up. They have Cliffs posture.

that chill, relaxed couch vibe, the screens, the yard work, the fire pit. How'd they do the fire? That's impressive. Resplendent. I will say that

getting new angles of Cliff's house, and there seemed to be a new one every single round of the draft, was a top five most exciting thing. I would say Lynn Bowden highlights were very exciting. I would say that how the quarterbacks were going to, suss, be sussed out, I think was interesting. And then just a new, a new angle of Cliff.

Did you guys see the tweet from C.J. Fogler of a cliff just standing. He has like these giant sliding doors into his backyard. Was this the diplomatic immunity to you? Yes. He's on the phone and it's just quote, I'm not worried about the DEA. I've got diplomatic immunity. It's like I died when I saw that. So good. This was a, this draft was a digital internet experience and Cliff fed into that fully. It was outstanding internet fodder throughout the entire draft. I have nothing but respect for it. It's a chic aspirational luxury.

What about you, Kev? First of all, I don't think Bill Belichick had a terrible setup. Just from a, just from a, like a living room. I love the table. I love the maps. I love the whole nautical vibe. And I think that the, the dog put it over the top.

Nike is the dog's name. That shot was a top 10 moment of the draft. So they go to the Lubella Shik. They put the Kairn up. And it said, it said Bill Belichick head coach and it was just the dog Nike perked up, very excited about life.

And I just, I don't know how you get any funnier. And then he gave the dog a treat on camera. It was, He is the king of bits in football. There was the shot a little bit later on on night two where Belichick was holding the football plush toy. Clearly either attempting to lure Nike back into the shot or, and I like to think this is it, had just finished playing with Nike while the draft was going on and then realized he had to get back as they were on camera.

Just remarkable stuff. Nike exceptional, exceptional pop kev. There's a CNBC profile of Nike, a little. video out there that you can find about Belichick and his bond with Nike. It's remarkable. He keeps noting, you can find this on Roger Sherman's Twitter feeder if you're looking for it. Rogers, of course, been tweeting about this actively. Belichick keeps noting throughout the video that he wanted to name the dog Jack. It's very funny. And that just talks about how much he loves him. It's so sweet. I find it very unmooring and disoriented to see Belichick in these humanizing

moments, but I love animals, and I thought this was absolutely remarkable. I loved it. I love the idea that he wanted to name the dog something, and he didn't get his way. Well, you know. That video was amazing. Tremendous. All right. Now we get to the steel of the draft that we're not

talking up about it. We could keep doing the Skype vibes thing for the next 30 minutes, but we'll leave that aside. Danny Kelly, you got two. I've got a couple here. Just real quick, I'll run through him. Terrell Lewis with the Rams from Alabama. He fell purely, I believe, just because of his injury history, but he's a very good player.

Long, athletic, very good bend off the edge. He can kind of drop back. He can do a lot of things for them. The fact that he fell to, let's see, where did he fall to? He fell to number 84. He was, like, talked about as a potential first rounder at times. So he is, to me, going to be a guy that we look back and like, man, that's crazy how he fall. But, again, it's just because of the injury situation.

And then the other one I want to talk about a little bit is Jonathan Taylor falling to the Colts at 41. I loved this pick. I'm wondering if this is sort of a signal. You know, it's kind of a back and forth, like two steps forward, one step back type thing because, like, Ezekiel Elliott did just get a giant contract. But it almost makes me think there's a little bit of like a changing in thinking for the NFL teams because analytically, stylistically,

Taylor isn't that different of a prospect from Ezekiel Elliott or, or, you know, Leonard Fortnet and both of those guys went in the top five like not that long ago. I wouldn't say he's Sequin. He's not on Sequin's level, but he is sort of the classic everything you want in a running back type thing. Big, fast, extremely fast, extremely athletic, home run speed, and durable. Like he had a lot of production and crazy production in college. So everything about him is like he was like to me on the same level as those two guys as

a prospect, and yet he fell out of the first round completely. He fell to 41. He wasn't the first running back taken. So I just thought that was interesting. I'm a big believer in kind of the way the direction the NFL seems to be going, that you don't need to take a running back in the first round, especially if they're not big passing game contributors. So, like, I don't think this was a, like, super surprising.

I guess it was just very interesting to me that a prospect of that caliber fell into the second round. I think that the mileage on his legs and the fumbles maybe. Yeah, a fumble thing, yeah. Play a part in it. But I mean, I think he's an outstanding player, one of my favorite players to watch in college the last few years. And what he is going to be able to potentially do behind that offensive line in Indianapolis is exilarating to think about.

Mallory, steal of the draft. So this was one for me that I think sometimes you have this, oh my God, this is the seal of the draft. reaction in real time. And this was one for me that I kind of started to think about it this way a little bit later, a little bit after the fact as I processed it. Alabama safety Xavier McKinney going to the Giants in round two. Definitely could have thrown out a handful of round one names here, even though we've talked about them ad nauseum. I still cannot believe Isaiah Simmons fell to eight. I still can't believe Jerry Judy fell to 15 and C.D. Lamb fell to 17. But let's shake it up a little bit and talk about somebody new.

For for McKinney, first of all, you know, I always love an Alabama defender. More specifically to him, just really, really strong value where they got him. I thought that he would be a first rounder. He was 19th on PFF's big board, just for a little bit of perspective compared to where he ultimately went. Safety isn't necessarily an urgent need for the giants, but I think that again, this is emblematic of a theme of our discussion here. it's the kind of pick that a smart team makes.

When a player who shouldn't necessarily be there is there for you, and that player can help your team and be a building block for the future, you take him. And they did, which I think is encouraging when you're thinking about the direction of the Giants franchise overall. And I liked their draft in general. I think that what makes McKinney specifically so exciting, he is a highly, highly versatile defender.

He operated in numerous capacities for the Crimson Tide, and he can absolutely do that in the NFL. It was interesting to see him talk about that in his post-draft interviews put me anywhere. You know, he can play any position in the defensive backfield. He can cover. He can blitz. He can move all around depending on scheme, depending on look. He's not necessarily the most blazingly fast guy.

You know, he ran a 4-6, 340. But I love the way he talks about that. He calls it a fake time and brings up other times that he's clocked in faster and then says, look at my tape. which yeah, look at his tape. Strong athlete, strong tackler, hits hard, play smart. He's a really creative guy. He designs his own tattoos, which I thought was one of the fun nuggets that we got on draft night across the draft.

And again, he just gives the team a lot of optionality, which I'm always drawn to a player who's going to open things up for the team in general. I thought a lot of safeties in this draft fell into the surprising slide but great value bucket. and that would include, you know, Grant Delpit from LSU, Antonio Winfield Jr. Though, obviously you have, you know, injury concerns there. Jordan Fuller, my dude, Gino Stone, all the way in round seven, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that was the case for many safeties.

But I just think McKinney is excellent value where they got him and can give them an incredible amount of choice and nimbleness. McKinney, it reminds me of, I don't want to come off, It's sounding like this is a negative, but like discount version of Isaiah Simmons. Not as big, not as fast, but ultimately used in a very similar way, like all over the formation. Like you can line him up against opposing teams top offense guy and then he can lock him down, or at least that's the idea and the theory behind it. I think the fact that both Simmons and McKinney are on this list is interesting.

And I think the NFL is just, and we heard this before the draft with Simmons. like the NFL just maybe hasn't bought in completely to the versatility thing. Derwin James fell in the draft. Like it's just kind of interesting. It's going to be fun to see how that evolves. And if we end up, like, because I think all of us are on the same page, like that versatility is super valuable. I think it'll be interesting to see if that's something the NFL ultimately adopts or if they just never kind of get there with that. I mean, part of it is that they have to be the case to have that kind of versatility is tied up in who gets, who gets them from a defensive coordinator standpoint.

And, you know, I think that there's a case we made that in some situations, Gibral Peppers could have been used a million times better because he's just thinking about him, Kev. Yes. That seems to have trended the other way. Okay. Darwin James has been used well, but obviously it was injured last year. And so we don't know how that looks. Isaiah Simmons, I don't know how that's going to play out. I think as a prospect, I think he's really good.

I want to see the plan for him. I mean, I think it's funny. I remember Daniel Jeremiah, a couple of people have talked about this, but in general, not not about, Simmons. But when you have a player like that, you need to have your defensive coordinator to come up with a plan for him in like March. And then you're talking about what the player looks like in your system, not what he looked like at Clemson or not what he looked like against so-and-so in the college football playoff. You need to know what he looks like because you're comparing him against so many other prospects that you know their role. And I think that that's

important. And I'm intrigued to see how Simmons goes. Speaking of Simmons, my steal is Willie Gay Jr. Now, he punched his quarterback in the face. He did punch his quarterback in the face, Kevin. That's the thing that happened. And my recommendation is he does not do that as Patrick Mahomes. I feel like there's some value there for the chiefs tied up in the Holmes and we're going to need to shut that down. Don't coddle a quarterback.

You take the good, you take the good with the bad. And, you know, we're going to coach that out of them. Okay. Leaving that aside, you also got suspended for academic fraud. at one point. Leaving that aside. He's a really good athlete. You love your steal of the draft to come with multiple leaving that aside sentences right off

the bat. Love that. So, well, listen, this is a reason he's a steal of the draft, okay? 39 inch vertical, almost 40, 39.5, 11.4, 11 foot, 4 inch broad jump, 243 pounds, ran well into 40.

PFF loves him. 93 career coverage grade. I think that there's, again, you have to take risks on this. But I think that with the linebacker cord that the chiefs had last year, and that was one of their glaring needs, quite frankly, was getting something there that was just kind of something to, something to look at quite frankly, because that was, that was, when you looked at their linebacker core last year, you were just confused that they were in the Super Bowl and then you realized how talented they were otherwise.

if they get Willie Gay to be an Isaiah Simmons type and he has he tests like he is that is an absolute game changer for that defense. He is very, very athletic. You have a type, Kevin. I love I love athletes.

I love athletes and I believe that punching your quarterback can be coached out of you as one of my core philosophies. All right. Most shocking slide. For me, This one maybe not like shocking is maybe not the right word, but you know Benjamin from Arizona State running back

fell all the way to the seventh round, almost went undrafted, which I thought he was going to be like a third or fourth round pick. So that one was confusing. I remember all throughout day three, I was just like, man, why is he still on the board there? Why is he still out there?

There was a lot of running backs who I think he's better than, that came off the board before him. So might have been just, I guess, injury related or something like that. We didn't really know about before the draft. but to me, him falling all the way into the seventh round. 222nd pick was very shocking. And then ultimately, though, I think he landed in like the ideal situation. The Cardinals, I mean, for a seventh round pick anyway, the Cardinals, their run game was second in DVOA last year.

I believe they have a offense that spreads the field, creates a lot of light boxes, creates space for the running backs. and their running backs are not under contract long term. There's a real, I guess, path for him to end up being like a pretty good pick. So anyways, I just thought that was an interesting one. I don't think there were too many, quote, shocking slides in this because apart from the people that you guys are mentioning in this list,

just because most of them are injury related. Right. I cannot limit myself to one here. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah. This is where, this is where, this is, where the college football fan in me is just incapable of exhibiting restraint, and I apologize in advance. I will try to go quickly here. So my first pick is Jake Fromm, and I want to be clear

that this does not mean I think Jake Fromm should have been a second round draft pick or will be a Hall of Fame starting quarterback and franchise cornerstone in the NFL. That said, Jake Fromm being the eighth quarterback taken and going 167th overall in round five was genuinely surprising to me. Didn't think he'd go in round two, but I thought he might go around three. I certainly thought he'd go in round four.

I had a moment of, like, did I enter the upside down without realizing it when the Jets took James Morgan out of FIU? James Morgan, who, by the way, did not unmute his line during the conference call.

I had to do it again. Remarkable stuff. So Fram has never been the quintessential NFL measurables guy, either in terms of his size or his arm strength. But he was a top prospect for much of his career, both as a high school player and then early in his college career at Georgia. And just the drop from that former standing to where he ended up going is really notable. I think that the, again, even absent that arm strength, the game manager, cerebral approach I thought would be appealing to NFL teams looking to get a reliable backup who they could turn to in a moment of need slightly higher in the draft. And I think this is just

the case where his combine completely sunk in. And it was two things. The total, and I thought Lewis Riddick, it was really interesting to hear him talk about this during the draft that people who were watching Jake Fromm were like shocked by the lack of Zim. on his ball at the combine. And then what was gone after that, the opportunity to then go spend more time with these teams and try to alter that perception. So there were left thinking,

this guy is a weak arm, and it's not worth taking him earlier than this. Now, I think the fit is borderline hysterical. Like, I thought the bills taking a backup quarterback made sense. Obviously, Josh Allen, the way he plays, he's always going to be an injury risk. Jake Fromm is the absolute inverse of Josh Allen in every single respect. Like he's the anti-Alan. So that just is amusing to me. My next pick here is Thaddeus Moss. I think Danny Kelly is going to be prepared to tell me why I'm wrong about this. But he wound up signing with Washington as an undrafted free agent, which I think is like an incredible landing spot for him. And he could be really productive for them. You know, now that Jordan Reed is going to be. gone. Vernon Davis gone, retired. Why did this surprise me? I thought he would fall because of

questions about his speed and injury concerns coming off the foot injury reveal at the combine has a prior missed time from another foot injury in his past. But if there are two things NFL teams love, it is drafting a productive player from a championship college football powerhouse and drafting someone with NFL bloodline pedigree. So in that sense to me, it's just really strange. I thought someone would take a flyer on him late. We saw 14 LSU players go, which ties Ohio State's 2004 record. Daddy Small says LSU backup went. Yeah. Stephen Sullivan went. Seahawks. Yeah. Seahawks. There you go, Danny, seventh round. So again, you know, the injury concerns the the prior missed time.

Some concerned about him being a late bloomer. He had transferred to LSU had been at NC State previously. So I think you could chalk up some of his late developing production to just the nature of his college career when you compound the transfer with the injury history. Joe Brady's scheme, how much did it help him? Well, you could ask that about everybody on LSU's offense. The fact that there were so many other players who were drawing attention I think is valid. But his production became more impactful and notable, the more of those games

mattered for them. And I think that that is impressive and I was just surprised that the team didn't grab them in the sixth or seventh round. Yeah, especially with some of the other I won't say no name, but like way under the radar. Like guys that no one's

barely even heard of got drafted. Like Steven Sullivan, for instance, like the Seahawks took him as a receiver. So that's maybe a little bit different. But man, I'm in agreeing with you too. And like the other thing is it's so hard to find a tight end that can block. Yeah.

Like, teams talk about that a lot these days. Like, oh, we can't find tight ends that can block. And he was probably one of the best blocking tight ends in the whole draft. So it is kind of, it's a little bit mystifying that he completely fell out of the draft. I think it would have made sense if he was taken in like the six or seventh round. But like for him to go undrafted, it's pretty crazy. bizarre. And I will just very, very, very, very quickly note that while I didn't think Denzel Mims's overall draft slot, round two, pick 59, was that shocking.

I thought him falling to 13 in the receiver class was a bit of a bit of a surprise. Yeah, yeah. I would say this. I was telling Craig this because Craig's on the Denzo Mims is going to be the best receiver in the class. I'm not putting him on blast. I think he tweeted that. So, and my take on this is, is he reminds me a lot. Mims reminds me a lot of Terry McLaurin last season.

A guy whose tape maybe wasn't what it, like what the, I guess like his, testing and everything that happened in the pre-draft process, the Senior Bowl, the Combine. McLaren blew both of those up. Mims was by far the star of the Senior Bowl and then absolutely astonished, you know, at the Combine. I don't think anyone was expecting him to do all that stuff. I think teams probably showed some restraint because his tape wasn't as good as maybe his testing would allude to. But that said, I could see Mims having like a McLaurin type rookie season where you're like, man, why did he fall so far? Yeah, absolutely.

So I think there's a lot of parallels to those two players. And Mims goes to a team where there's not much talent at the receiver position. So he could potentially be their number one. Yeah, I mean, for the Jets, for Darnold, that's just a incredible gift potentially. Yeah. Okay, Bill's get AJ and Vanessa at 54. I think this was a really good value. This is the kind of guy who slips.

He wasn't athletic. he didn't test out all that well. And Brandon Bain said, we're just looking for guys you can play football. And I understand that, but I am still a little bit concerned about the athleticism.

However, at Pick 54, this is what you want. First round talent. PFF loves him again. Win rate of 31% when rushing from the interior, which is really, really good.

He's strong as hell. He's going to beat people up. If you want to be a physical team, you add guys like this, the pick 54. He is, he's strong, extremely physical, and he was really productive.

You know, it's actually kind of shocking that he followed, because teams love production. Curtis Weaver is another guy that fell really far. That was kind of surprising like he was,

his production was off the charts. But just not, not the Iowa strength. The Iowa strength program is very impressive. Something I learned about when I did the George Kittle piece. Iowa strength,

I would like to go to the Iowa strength program and see how it goes. for me. Can you jump straight out of a pool like Worf's? I need to talk about that for a second. That makes me deeply anxious. Nervous.

Yeah. That was my reaction to, Kevin. I was like, no. Don't do that. If you spend enough time around pools and just see people getting hurt, which you do all the time because pools are just unbelievable, strangely unsafe.

Like, because everyone, maybe it's because everyone's drunk all the time or they're just children, whatever, or both in Florida. But somehow more of a Florida comment from you than your 10-minute diatribe about Tommy Bahama. But anyway, I just, when I saw that, I was like, man, he's going to get hurt. I turned into a deeply concerned parent for worse.

No swimming pools and no motorcycles. That's like got to be on the contract. I think the swimming pool thing is broken quite a bit if that was ever a thing. I think I think they're going to allow it. All right. Last category. Last one. Guy we're going to,

it's funny because I asked you, Danny Kelly last week, kind of this question going forward, which is the guy who when they get in the building and they start playing, we're going to go, oh my God, how do we let this guy get here?

And it was actually, my example was Patrick Queen following to the Chiefs, and that actually did not happen. He went before to another smart franchise. I think we're going to be saying the same thing. So Patrick Queen is a candidate here. Danny, who is your,

best fit, the guy we're going to be saying, oh my God, I cannot believe this guy is here and he looks great. Yeah, my guy is Brandon Ayyuk for the 49ers. And I'm kind of cheating a little bit because I'm going to say two guys here. Juan Jennings and Brandon Ayuk. Jennings, they got, I think, in the seventh round, like late round guy.

The 49ers absolutely have a type. And it is guys who are, excuse me, guys who are completely beastly after the catch. Like insanely, insanely. elusive physical, tough after the catch, explosive. I saw this from Fantasy Points Graham Barfield. The 49ers

have George Kittle, who led all receivers and tight ends in yards after the catch the last two seasons, 8.3. Debo Samuel led all receivers in yards after the catch as a rookie. Brandon Ayuk, who they drafted in the first round, led the rookie receiver class in yards after the catch.

And he is, I think that's like his, that's why he was so intriguing to a lot of teams. He's kind of raw. You know, his route running is going to take probably a couple years. He's a juco transfer. Only one year of elite production. So there's some worries there.

But he is so sudden and explosive in space. You get the ball on his hands and he can hit a home run. He's like a really good return man. Like he's just electric in space. So he is the perfect, perfect receiver for the 49ers. Shanahan. And this just like for fantasy purposes, I was like, yes. In his post-game presser, he said, like, he's like,

he was describing iukes he's like he wants to be great he's really gritty all that stuff like i'm paraphrasing um and he's he goes and i promise you we're gonna scheme him up to get the ball on his hands and i'm like if any if any coach in the nif like shanahan of any coach i'm like yes he's going to find ways to get the ball in his hands and i think it's going to be very fun because he's just i think very very electric after the catch so in addition to that you add in joan jennings seventh rounder who was very impressive at the senior ball at times like he ran slow with four sevens. This is why he was a seventh rounder, but he is an absolute beast after the catch. And he's a different type of elusive. He's like, like, Marshawn Lynch, like he's

just running people over. He led all, I saw this on Twitter. He led all power five receivers and broken tackles per reception. And only CD Lamb had more yards after contact per catch than him. So, oh, and he forced to miss tackle on 51% of his catches per PFF. So he, so he forced to miss tackle on 51% of his catches per PFF. So he's just like running down defensive backs and like he's just big physical. He's a perfect fit for the 49ers offense, which does such a good job of scheming up guys into space

and letting them run after the catch. I think Jennings is sort of the, the Kittles version of a receiver. Wow. Perfect. I'm just saying he's going to be a superstar like Kittle. I'm just saying like you can't tackle the guy. So anyways, I think those two,

those are just like the perfect fits for the 49ers. I love it. I'm also going with a receiver here. I'm going with Justin Jefferson, another proud LSU Tiger. Vikings took him in the first round, picked 22. I love the pick.

I love the Vikings draft overall. Kev, you talked about it a bit earlier. 15 total picks is just wild. The Eagles picked before the Vikings. They picked it 21. And they took Jalen Rigger, Prince Riga, Targaryen. out of TCU.

And taking him instead of Jefferson was surprising and a little bit odd to me. So I thought the Vikings got a little bit lucky here that Jefferson ended up being available to him. And I think it will be interesting to track how those two guys are linked throughout their career, taking one pick apart as they were. But I just,

Jefferson's just solid. You know, again, we've talked about this receiver class so much. And I definitely think there was a drop-off from the Lamb Judy Ruggs tier to the next group, but I do think Jefferson was next. And the production that he can provide out of the slot, he's just a catch machine. I mean, he caught 111 passes last year.

He had 18 touchdowns. He can really help this offense. Feels like the kind of guy that Kirk Cousousins is just going to love this steady, reliable presence, someone who's there for the volume play. And they needed to address receiver after the Stefan Diggs trade. And of course, what did they get for Digg? They got this pick, right? So they literally are replacing digs with the thing that they got for him.

This was the Bills pick that they acquired in that deal. And, you know, Kev, we talked about this a little bit on our round one pod, but this Jefferson pick is also part of this larger, really interesting draft trend from this year. Teams moving on from a more expensive veteran and replacing that player immediately in this draft with a rookie contract. You know, Slay and Akuto with the Lions, Buckner and Kinlaw with the Niners, numerous examples out of this draft,

and Jefferson is one of them. But I like the pick a lot. I think he'll be really productive right away for them. Kind of throughout this process, I've been comping Jefferson to like a long version of Doug Baldwin, but he's actually very much like Adam Thielen. Like very good route runner. Yeah.

Excels at the catch point, very like savvy where you're kind of using like tugs and push offs at the very end of your route. Like you separate late. tough over the middle. So anyways, it makes a lot of sense why the Vikings like this guy. Yeah.

I love that confidence. It's like getting it your new version of Thielen. He might be a little bit more athletic even. I went a little deeper into the draft and found Alex Highsmith, UNC Charlotte, three, four pass rusher,

I guess, stand up edge rusher, goes to Pittsburgh. And you can kind of see, when I saw a tape of him after the pick, and I had seen him before, but when I saw a tape,

of him and looked at him in a Steelers uniform in my mind's eye, I thought, oh, well, I think this guy probably fits in quite well. This is the kind of guy who, in two years, who might say, why the hell did he fall to the Steelers, who are going to develop him well as a front seven guy. He needs a lot of work to speak out. Listen, there's some questions about playing at UNC Charlotte and the talent level and all that stuff, but Lance Zero one has them as quick to diagnose and slip blocks, make plays in the backfield, has a diverse set of rush attacks. I think that he's the type of guy in that front seven the stewards are just going to plug him in.

Bud Dupree, obviously, and T.J. Watt are great pass rushers and are already providing a lot of push and Bud Dupree's in his franchisee your tag and all that stuff. But this is just another guy that can throw in the front seven develop and scare offenses with. This guy had, I'm just looking at his stats right now. He had 47 tackles for a loss in last two years combined. Yeah.

That's pretty damn good. That's good. 21 and a half titles for loss, including 15 sacks last year. So, geez. Hey, can I give one more? I saw Ben Gretch on Twitter had this and I thought it was really interesting and it is in Mal's wheelhouse. The Jacob Easton to the Colts.

I love this so predictively. It's a perfect match only in a sense, and this is this is Grech's point, is that Eason would have been overdrafted. He just would have been this big arm immobile guy. He would have been overdrafted. years ago, maybe three years ago, who the hell knows? And he falls to a place with Frank Reich, learn behind Philip Rivers,

learn behind a good offensive line. If there was any place for him to go and show off his big arm, it's in it. Perfect. Perfect landing spot for him. I was delighted. I love that year in Easton. I love that you're an Easton fan. I just can't quit him.

He represents so many of the things, the Gabbard-esque things that drive me crazy during draft season after watching college football. But I just, I just can't quit him. I don't know. I love it. Good work, Indy. Danny, which Seahawks pick

Mandy the Angerist? I mean, the first round pick, my initial reaction was like, not anger, but just, so I wrote this in my draft grades and I'm going to reuse it because I felt like

it was legitimately exactly what I did. You know, the scene from arrest development where Michael picks up a bag that says, dead dove, do not eat. He looks into it,

and he's like, I don't know what I expected. This is like exactly, The Seahawks do this every year. They pick some guy that's like, and he was 87th on my board. He was, I think, 64th or something on the consensus board from Maria Fassano over at The Athletic. So that was like 60 analysts draft boards. So he was not expected mostly to be that high.

And it's like every year the Seahawks do this where they're like, what? Like who is this guy? I've talked myself into it more because I'm a masochist, you know? Like I've definitely talked myself into this after the fact. but my first reaction was just like what? I like Brooks. I mean, I mostly just have extreme gratitude that they didn't select Patrick Queen and then the Ravens did one pick later. But I think Brooks is a good player. I mean, yeah. And this is what I'm talking about. Like, I've talked myself into it. Like,

he is that thumper, like, rangy, very athletic guy. And like, I can absolutely see why the Seahawks like him. They love Bobby Wagner for many of the same reasons. There's question marks about his coverage. So that's a legitimate question mark. That's why he was so low on a lot of people's boards. But yeah, I can definitely see like if they're looking for that like attitude on defense again, which they absolutely are and they were, they did not have it last year. Like I understand that.

But it was just like in the moment. You're like, what the hell again? Let me tell you what I love. I love that the Seahawks sit there while Niners get Trent Williams. The Cardinals are gearing up to be one of the most exciting

teams in football. Everyone's making moves. The Seahawks are doing a Seahawks bullshit and they're still going to win 11 games. Yeah. Nothing matters. Absolutely. Absolutely. And what a note to end on.

Nothing matters. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having us, Kev.