The Ringer-Verse - 10 Key Questions for 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Finale

Episode Date: April 22, 2021

Mallory Rubin is joined by fellow 'Ringer-Verse' host Charles Holmes to talk about the remaining burning questions and theories before the finale of 'The Falcon and the Winter Solider' this Friday (09:11) and how they tie into the broader themes of the show. They are then joined by Jomi Adeniran to answer your listener questions (38:38). Host: Mallory Rubin Guest: Charles Holmes & Jomi Adeniran Producer: Steve Ahlman Engineer: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel & Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Greetings and welcome into the ringerverse here on the ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin co-host a binge mode head of editorial here at the ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the Sokovian Memorial. but to join us on this podcast feed for Marvel, for superhero stories, Star Wars, all things nerd culture and fandom. Now, before we dive into today's episode, a few reminders,

of course, the Midnight Boys, Poo Poo Poo Poo! Oh, you gotta do the Poo Poo Poo Poo! I know, I saw the tweet that said I was contractually obligated. Van Lathen and Charles Holmes will be with you this Friday with their instant reactions

to the Falcon and the Winter Soldier finale. It's going to be an incredible episode of TV and an incredible episode of The Midnight Boys. Couple more feed notes for this week. Van and Charles also have another trailer instant reaction up for you already on Shang Chi. So check that out if you haven't yet. And then come back.

We got a busy programming. We come back on Sunday because Van and Shay are going to have a Mortal Kombat pod for you. A couple more reminders before we dive in today. Follow us. Follow us on Twitter. Follow us on Instagram at Ringerverse. Join the Ringerverse Facebook group.

And of course, follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't want to forget the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Okay? Today's pod features plot details not only from the fifth episode of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Truth. But from the entire season to date, the entire MCU run to date, some comics canon dotted in, all of it. Okay? joining me today.

What a joy this is. What a privilege this is. Ringer staff writer. The Ringer Music Show co-host and one half of the Midnight Boys on this very podcast feed. Charles Holmes.

Charles, welcome. What an honor. What an honor. I feel like this is, this is like when Thainos came on. It came down to to Wakanda, man. I hope the listeners don't tear me up.

But this is an honor. I feel like I'm going to college right now. I've always wanted to come on this spot. The honor is all mine, first of all. It's very kind of you to say. And I owe you and the listeners an immediate apology because we were supposed to record this first thing Monday morning. And in fact, we're on Zoom, all put it up, ready to roll.

And then I got the little DNP. Did not play on my box score because I have not been feeling well. the past few days. So thank you for your patience, Charles. And thank you to all the ring of reverse listeners out there for their patience, because this episode is obviously coming out a few days later than it normally would. We're recording it a few days later than we normally would. And so because that, we're going to do things a little bit differently today. We're almost a week removed from the fifth episode of Falcon, Truth. Beautiful episode. Outstanding. We're a day away from the finale now. Season finale time is here already. I can't believe it.

it. So we're going to look ahead. And of course, as we look ahead, we're also going to look back. We're still going to talk about the themes at the heart of the most recent episode and the season to date, the character arcs. But we're going to do that by running through a finale preview of sorts in the form of 10 key character questions heading into the conclusion of this season. You know, the fifth episode was teased by Malcolm Spellman and Nate Moore as the culmination of the themes at the heart of the story and it was absolutely beautiful and delivered on that in full. I think that where that leaves us is a plot heavy finale

because there are a lot of loops to tie and threads to stitch back together into the ultimate tap The tapestry that the show is building toward, I think, obviously, given the tone and thematic, heavy lens through which this show has approached every episode, I think we're still going to also get a lot of that, that emotional resonance and that heart. But a lot of the characters are converging on New York, and a lot of the plot lines are converging there, too. So this is how we're going to try to talk about it all together. And there are a few reasons that I wanted to have you join me today, Charles, for this journey, this podcasting journey. Okay. A podcasting journey, by the way,

that we're going to try to make shorter than usual because, again, the finale is tomorrow. Part of the Ring or Verse family, man. It's time. Crossover at time. It was time. It was time for the first crossover, you know? But also, two things that any Midnight Boy listener will know.

One, you are a self-proclaimed hater, but you could not stop talking about how beautiful you thought episode five was and how much you loved it. I loved to, yes. I really wanted to talk to you about how your feelings about the show have evolved over the course of the season. And then the other thing is, as any Midnight Boy listener will know, you love a prediction. You love to call your shot Babe Ruth style and then make sure everybody knows that you nailed it.

And this, this format today, the take key character questions gives us a chance to make some finale predictions. Will they be wrong in 24 hours? Maybe. Most likely. That's okay. That's okay. Chuck Tradamus is here for some predictions today. Absolutely an exceptional nickname.

How does that rate for you compared to your other Midnight Boy nicknames so far? That's a more flattering one than Coke. Coke Baby Chuck is probably still number one. Not in my heart, but probably in the hearts of the listeners. So I got to give it to Coke baby Chuck. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Should we dive right in?

Any big picture thoughts you want to share at the top? Any further reflections after a couple more days of processing the episode? I was thinking about this, you know, after the fifth episode a lot. One thing I do enjoy about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier is like this to me seems like the first truly, and I mean this in a very positive way, like messy MCU entry because I think when we used to get movies from the MCU, It used to be the themes, the ideals that they were dealing with were definitely not as sticky as race. And I do want to shout out like Malcolm Spellman and Anthony Mackey and everybody who's created it because like this was such a risk. And to see that they're tackling all these questions, they're making me think each week.

Sometimes they pull it off absolutely. Sometimes maybe they fall a little short. But yeah, I've been, I'm really sad that I'm going to have to jump off this ride because I do enjoy that the fact that they're like, hey, we're going to attack this head on. it's going to be the first time the MCU does this. And hey, we're there to take the lumps and we're also there to rejoice. So, yeah, I'm really, really happy with this season of TV.

Yeah, it's, it's been special. It really has been. Did you see this week, though, to the point about it concluding, more in an interview with IndyWire saying, maybe not. Maybe we'll get another season. So that's something to look forward to.

Predictions, but if the Hawkeye TV show goes off without a hitch, I would love Hawkeye to be thrown into this buddy, comedy. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Kate Bishop or Clint serial murdering Ronan, Barton? Both, maybe a little bit of both. I need, I need Bucky and Clint time. I need a little bit more Bucky and Clint time in my life. That's all I'm going to say about that. Interesting. Do you envision Clint and Bucky hanging out at the farm for some R&R, you know, some rest and relaxation? Are they out in the field? All I know, and I don't want to spoil in a little. these mailback questions, but Bucky's going to need a lot of date spots. And there's no better

date spot than going to Hawkeyes Farm and hanging with the fam. I don't know, though, because as lovely as the Barton family farm is, I can't think of anything less romantic than putting mayonnaise on a hot dog. Just me, though. Maybe that's just me. Or your whole family turning to ash all your hot dogs in your hand. So, yes. True. That was very tough. Let's dive in. Of course, we're going to start with Sam. Sam has the shield. Will he officially choose in the season finale to become Captain America? So many amazing conversations and moments for Sam in the fifth episode.

All of which unique and stood on their own, but all of which connected to each other really potently, and all of which I think reminded us that Sam is not seeking anybody's permission. He is seeking understanding. He is seeking knowledge. He is seeking insight, introspection, growth. All of those things, along with his heart that drive his compassion, make him such a worthy hero. And that has been one of the throughlines, not only of how Sam's story connects to Steve Rogers'

There's a story, which we'll talk about in a couple minutes. But of what makes Sam such a worthy hero? What do you think we're going to see inside of the box? What's in the box, Charles? What's in the box meme? Because the episode concluded with Sam opening the box, looking in. We know that Bucky called in his final favor with the Wakandans. We see Sam take a deep breath, look in,

then we cut away. What's inside and what decision is he going to make? And what decision are you hoping that he makes? So definitely in the box to me is that Captain America costume, probably one that is most likely comic book accurate. And I think over on the Midnight Boys, we're talking about kind of the beautiful choice that it's the Wakandans who created the Captain America or potentially created the Captain America suit for Sam, because obviously that's an African-Nate. and it's showing that Captain America is an idea that's not necessarily rooted in America as a country, but more so rooted in American ideals. And the thing that after watching, like, Episode 5 I'd realize is that I as a viewer was getting lost in kind of Sam's journey. and I realized, after watching episode five, Sam's journey isn't just wondering whether a black man can be Captain America, a non-super soldier could be Captain America, or a family man could be Captain America.

It's more so about Sam realizing as an individual that he wants to be Captain America. And that's the most important thing, is that throughout this whole journey, Isaiah has been saying different things, Bucky, Zemo, everybody has been giving their thoughts on what Captain America represents. presents, but I think in episode five, I think he finally realized it doesn't matter what Steve said or Bucky or Zemo or my sister. It matters if I think I can be Captain America. To me, that's beautiful. And all they have to do in the final episode is really show how he's going to be Captain America and how he's going to honor Steve's legacy, but not be trapped behind the shadow. Yes. I completely agree. There's so much there to parse. I've been thinking, a lot since watching truth about something Sam said to Bucky in episode two.

Maybe this is something you or Steve will never understand, but can you accept that I did what I thought was right? That is the heart, as you just said, of Sam's journey this season, more than anything, is that he is processing and assessing what he thinks is right. And that That is the through line. He has an incredible ability to think about how other people feel and to try to consider their perspective and their experience, more so than all but a handful of the characters that we've seen in the MCU. It's part of what makes him so captivating and compelling to watch.

He's a human being first. Thinking about the conversations that he had in this episode through the lens of that quote to Bucky in the second episode and that larger idea, I think is pretty illuminating. The episode is, of course, named for Isaiah's comics arc. Incredible scene. I mean, just an unbelievable, tremendous performance from Carl Umbley. The things that he said to Sam are not things that Sam is going to just move beyond, right? The stars and stripes don't mean nothing good to me. If you ain't bitter, you're blind. You and Van discuss this. The clarity. of realizing that what Isaiah did,

which was decide to act in the face of defiance and hatred to go save his fellow soldiers, the parallel there between what Steve did with the 107th and the fact that that was the pathway, really, to Steve's origin story. And that same act of, heroism in the face of cruelty and cowardice for Isaiah led to being jailed, tortured, experimented on for 30 years.

Isaiah says to Sam, you want to believe jail was my fault because you got that white man's shield. And later, when Sam is talking to Sarah, his sister, and he has a couple beautiful conversations with her as well. in the first one, he says, I'm trying to figure out what it all means. And then later, in the conversation by the boat, if he's talking about we have to preserve this, this is our history, we can't lose this fight.

What does Sam say to Sarah then? He says, Isaiah's been to hell and back. If I was in his shoes, I'd probably feel the exact same way, but what would be the point of all the pain and the sacrifice if I wasn't willing to stand up and keep fighting? And then you have a moment like, Sam holding the shield and watching his nephew trace the outline of the star.

And thinking about the past and the future and how they inform each other, I kept thinking about during the Bucky Sam Walker fight scene that opened the episode, I kept thinking about the Elder Wand. Are you a Harry Potter fan? Yes, all seven books, all movies, yes. Wonderful. So I kept thinking about the Elder Wand

because there were a couple moments during that fight where you're not only thinking about the Steve Rogers history and connections, the three-person battle and the clear corollary to the Civil War, Siberia fight, dual the faiths comp side. And moments where, you know, the way Sam is using his exo pack to kind of generate this propulsive force

and that reminds you of Tony, even though he's a team Capcom. like the real brilliance at the heart of that sequence. But I kept thinking about the elder wand because there were moments in the fight where I thought, oh, no, is this going to be the kind of thing where Sam has to win the shield

the way that a wizard has to win the elder wand? And I was so glad it didn't go that way because it's really the exact opposite and that connects to the thematic richness. The shield doesn't choose Sam. Sam has to choose the shield. He has to decide. He has to decide.

He has to decide in his heart and with his mind and with his soul that that is what he wants and that is what he thinks is right for the people that he wants to help and for him. And I thought that that episode conveyed that so beautifully. And so if he makes the decision in the finale definitively that he does want to be Captain America, it will be his choice and his choice alone. And I like the idea of the box containing, to your point, about the comic suit, I agree completely. I wonder if we'll see the wings, because obviously in the comics, when Sam was Captain America, he still has his wings. He still has his falcon wings.

And I love that. You know, this evolution for Sam is his own, right? It's not just putting on somebody else's uniform. What would his suit be? What would he want it to be? And I kind of like the idea of opening the case and seeing if there's a cap suit, you see that there, but you also see the and then he decides could go either way to put them together. It's a fusion for him of who he was and who he wants to be. And even hearing you talk, the thing that I've always been thinking about through this whole series is like it's a series about people who can't conceive of a world outside of their own imagination.

Like, you see someone like Isaiah Bradley, he can only conceive of a world where America will not allow a black man to be Captain America. Bucky can't think of a world where Steve Rogers as Captain America was wrong. Like Sam's sister can't think of a world where Assam can both be like a family man and also be Captain America. And I think that the beauty of this is that while Isaiah stays where he's at so far, and maybe Sam's sister hasn't moved that far, Bucky actually moves. He apologizes. He apologizes for Steve and him not actually wondering how Sam felt about getting the shield.

And by the end of the episode, we now see Falcons' worldview starting to open up. Because in the first episode, when he hands over the shield, he literally cannot think of a world where he himself can be Captain America. And now we're getting to a point where his worldview is changing. He's talked to Zemo. He's talked to Sharon. He's talked to Bucky. He's gotten all this information. And I think that's the beautiful thing.

Is like throughout this whole thing, he wasn't getting answers through his fists, through fights. He was getting it through talking to people. And we saw in episode four when he talks to Carly, he's the only one willing to say, hey, let's talk. And that's what I think is the beautiful thing about Sam as Captain America. He might not be the best fighter. He might not be able to live up to the greatest generation.

He might not be able to do all these things. but his superpower is being willing to talk to people. Like we saw him in Winter Soldier when he was just talking to the soldiers. Ah, man, I love that so much. And it's a great way actually to bring it back to Steve for a minute, if only to then move it away from Steve, which is something I think this episode did an outstanding job of navigating. Because hearing you say all that,

it makes me think of the moment where Steve Rogers said that he puts his faith in people and individuals. And it's like, because that's really rare. That's really rare, right? It's all too rare. And especially in a story that has dedicated itself so fully to shining a light on all of the myriad ways in which institutions fail. And in which people too often let them, it's, it's, it's, so important to have the corollary to that. Sam feels that way, too. He puts his faith in people. He

puts his faith in individuals. That's why they put it in him. But in this episode, Sam said something that I thought was elemental, not only for Sam's story, Bucky story, the Falcon and the Winter Soldier as a show, but for the MCU at large in Phase 4 and moving forward. It was in the conversation with Bucky, and he said, this is on the heels of Bucky again, explaining that he felt like he had nothing left after Sam handed over the shield, everything that Bucky associated with that. And what did Sam say to him? He said, I understand, man, but Steve is gone. And this might be a surprise, but it doesn't matter what Steve thought. You got to stop looking to other people to tell you who you are. That was such an amazing line and moment and idea. And I thought,

I was so glad the show included it because Steve Rogers is a person, a character, a hero, who Sam and Bucky and many, many, many people in the audience, including us love, right? Yes. That's a character we love. But that doesn't mean that what Sam said is not completely and elementally true to moving forward in life. The show and the characters have worked to reconcile and at times work to separate the idea of Steve Rogers from the idea of Captain America. So it was really important, actually, I think, to have a moment like this that said, well, working to reconcile those two things does not actually

mean just putting Steve back on a pedestal where you never assess anything independent of his glory, right? It's still important to remember that Steve is a person. And by the way, even if he were a god, it would be just as important to ask these questions and make these points and realize that nobody else has to live their life completely in somebody else's image. Now that you said that line, do you also think that that's almost like a very tongue-and-cheek way for the creators of the MCU for Kevin Feige to basically be like, hey, Cap is gone? And like, like, you We're moving towards a new phase where we have Shang Chi. We're going to have LGBTQ characters if they stay comic book accurate.

We're going to have a Hawkeye that's a woman. And it to me is showing that something that the comics have never been able to do is that even when Sam is Cap, we always know Steve Rogers is going to come back. And the challenge for the MCU is to say, like, hey, we know you love Steve. We know you love Tony. But these are the new characters. And this is the new world. Absolutely. And I think that that's such a beautiful thing because Sam is now the one. He's going to be the leader of the Avengers if everything goes right. And he's the one saying, this is a new world. I love Steve, but it doesn't matter. Like we have to keep marching on. And I think that's a beautiful thing to say. And probably why they were going to have Falcon and the Winter Soldier come out first because it would have primed the audience to be like, hey, we're doing something new. And this is a new world. Hop on this ride.

I totally agree, and I think, yes, it definitely felt like a meta-commentary in that sense. And I do think that there are throughlines there with Wanda Vision and the way that WandaVision focused on grief, even something like the fact that, you know, Black Widow, the first film that we're going to get is set in the past, but we'll introduce new characters who will be a part of the future of the MCU. Loki is an alt-time line, so you're with familiar characters, but new ideas. what if definitionally a alternate history experience, the entire beginning of phase four is very much anchored in that idea

to the characters and to the viewers like that shared experience. But you move forward. You know, you move forward. Whenever I say, whenever I say move forward out loud, I've spent so much time over the last decade of my life thinking and talking about Game of Thrones that I can't help but think of Stanis Barathean

when I say that, which is sort of an alarming place to be. Like, I just hear him in my head saying, you know, we march to victory or we march to defeat, but we go forward only forward. And I don't think it's that. It's like a much subtler and more nuanced approach because actually, that's part of the point. It's not this rigidity, right? And it's not this, like, fixed deterministic. We're not in an episode of devs.

We're not on the tram lines. That's the whole point, actually. is the characters, viewers, creators, everybody makes decisions. They make choices. And that's why it's so meaningful to watch Sam, if that's where it goes on the finale, make this choice. It's why it's meaningful to watch any character make the choices that they make, because people have agency.

And that makes them culpable. We're going to get to that with John Walker in a few minutes. Yes. Right? This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

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is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colhouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. All right. Charles, should we talk about Bucky for a minute here? You've had quite a journey with Bucky this season.

You're back in a buck. The comeback kid, someone say. 106 years of comebacks for Bucky. What a stretch. What a stretch for him. All right, here's my Bucky question for you. Will Bucky in the finale formally shed the Winter Soldier moniker and fully become the white wolf.

Is that Bucky's arc? Is that the next step in his evolution? I was going back, I was watching the previous episodes, and I actually think that we got a prediction in the first episode when he's talking to his therapist, and he has all the rules. And the third rule is rule number three, he says, I'm no longer the winter soldier, I'm James Bucky Barnes, and you're part of my efforts to make amends.

And when that happens, we see him, he doesn't really believe it. He's really breaking the rules. He's like skirting line. And I think the important thing about that quote is that he's not the winter soldier. The therapist is trying to make him realize you are James Buchanan Barnes.

And you have to be okay with that. And if he takes up the white wolf, part of me questions, I'm like, does he actually need another moniker? Everybody knows his face. Everybody knows who he is. Well, everybody except the, Citizens of New York.

Yes. Apparently. I still can't get over that from the first episode, but carry on. But I think that, to me, is Bucky's real journey

being okay with his life as a civilian and making a life that's outside of the Winter Soldier that's outside of the White Wolf because since he's been back in the fold with Cap, he's gone,

he's gone from Russia to Wakanda to fighting Thanos to all these. these people and he's never actually taken time to realize like, who do I want Bucky to be? And that to me would be where I would want to see him as a character is, is not the super heroics and not an alias, just being okay being Bucky. I could.

All I want for my dear sweet Bucky is a moments piece and, you know, perhaps a romantic evening for the two of us. But we'll get to that in a few minutes, you know. I also found myself thinking back and reflecting on the first episode and the things that we heard in the first episode. And the thing that I was thinking about was Dr. Rainer saying to him, you've got your mind back. You're being pardoned. You're free. And him saying to do what.

And we've talked about this throughout not only discussing that episode, but the season. that really made me think at the time of the conversation between Sam and Steve in the Winter Soldier when Steve visits Sam at the VA and Sam asked him, what makes you happy? And what does Steve say? Yeah. I don't know. And for Bucky, for any person, that's the heart of a lot of it trying to figure that out. And it can be really hard. The white wolf aspect of this, like on the one hand, And the Disney Plus shows, as we've talked about a lot, there's a lot more time and a lot more room than the movies, like, definitionally afford to show us who these characters are, show us what they're thinking, what they're processing. I still think, though, those moments aren't wasted.

So everything that we hear, to me, feels deliberate, right? There's some intention behind it. And so the fact that we've heard the White Wolf moniker episode after episode this season does feel to me intentional. And so I wonder if there's a way that there could be like a hybrid path where he embraces that moniker as he's shedding the winter soldier phase of his life without feeling like that has to be tied up in something else we've heard him say, which is that he's just moved from fight to fight. Right. And when he was talking about that in the first episode in his therapy sessions, one of the things that he said was that he only. had that brief moment of peace in Wakanda. And I think for him, it's possible that that association with the White Wolf, because that came from his time in Wakanda, is not actually about war and fighting. It is about peace. It is about the moment where he felt that and where he felt like he could

maybe actually be quiet, be quiet for a moment. Have you seen the sound of metal? I have not seen the sound of metal. Okay. Well, there is a sequence, that film that centers on the idea of just sitting, sitting in stillness. And what has to happen for you and your growth as a person and what you're processing about your own life and your own circumstances to just be able to sit, to sit in a room, to sit with yourself, to sit with your thoughts. And I thought that was so moving and painting. and also aspirational. And even though Bucky's story is very different from Rubin's story, who's the protagonist of that film,

I was just thinking about it processing where Bucky is right now and what needs to happen for him to feel like he could just sit with himself. I loved the response that he had to Zemo in this episode. Very disappointed in my guy Barron Helmut Zemo for saying they literally programmed you to kill James do it needs to be done and trying. But of course, that's his whole thing, right? Is, and we're going to talk about Zemone in a second, manipulation and control.

It was cruel. It was cruel to see him try to tap into the winter soldier inside of Bucky. But to see Bucky be able to say, that's not who I am anymore. And pour the bullets out of his hands. I love that shot where we saw Zemo looking down at the bullets cascading out of Bucky's hands. And then you had to,

little moments after that that really reinforced that, like something like Sam asking him why he didn't use his metal arm and Bucky's saying, I don't always think of it immediately. Yes, I love that line. Yes. I love that line. It was beautiful. Yes. It's a reminder that that's, that only has to be as much of a part of Bucky's life as he lets it and wants it to be. That doesn't mean, like, to be clear that it's easy, that it's an easy path forward. But, you know, that was why it was so awesome that we we got that scene that we've been waiting for, I think, all season between Sam and Bucky, where Sam gave Bucky that therapy session. And Sam, a counselor, helped Bucky work through his trauma.

And I wanted to ask you what you thought about Bucky's smile. When Sam asked him, you're still having nightmares? And he said, all the time. And he has this kind of half smile smirk on his face. And he says, it means I remember. It means a part of me is still there, which means a part of the winter soldier, is still in me. Did you perceive that as Bucky being resigned? Or did you perceive that

as Bucky actually finding strength and purpose in the fact that he remembers what he has done, even if he was not in control of his own mind when he did it, which he was not? Because we've heard that idea from him before. We heard that from him in Captain America Civil War when he says, I remember all of them. And it's felt like he's needed to remember because that's the only way really that he can process and heal. I took that as a, not him resigning himself to his fate, but in a weird way, honestly,

it connects in my mind to like Wanda Vision, where it's like growing, growing a conscience and realizing that there is an emotional side to him there that he was hiding for so long. And we saw in Wanda's journey where she basically kind of pushes all of her emotions to the side to chase this world with a family. And by the series finale, she realizes how many people she hurt. And she realizes that she has to sacrifice a part of herself to regain her humanity. And I think we see that with Bucky as well, with him saying, I remember it all. He's no longer running from it. He's saying, hey, like, I can feel bad about this. And now I can do something about it. And Sam and him are talking. And Vin and I brought this up about

now Bucky becoming a good ally. Instead of running from the things you did, instead of trying to make yourself feel better, he can remember everything he did to make everyone else to make his victim's hole. And I think that's why he's smiling because now he knows the path forward. He knows what he has to do,

not only to be a good friend to Sam, but to also be a good ally to all the people that the Winter Soldier hurt. Absolutely. And Sam says to him, you got to go to them and be of service. And that is, of course, so central to Sam's approach and Sam's worldview. And I think we probably all agree that that's leading to Bucky going to find Yori, who he could not bring himself to be honest with in the first episode, despite their relationship, probably because of their

relationship, actually, because the difference there, I mean, there are many, this wasn't a corrupt senator, right? This wasn't somebody tied up in Hydra's web. This is an innocent person. And that forces Bucky to confront that humanity. I think the fact that he has always understood logically, rationally, consciously that he did not decide to do the things that he did as the winter soldier has not necessarily meant that he's been able to absolve himself. But that guilt, that it's at the heart of so much of his trauma is, again, what makes him a human being, not just a fighter, but a human being,

who we invest in. And his journey of growth and progress being one that we invested. So I'm rooting for Buck. Before we wrap up, I have to ask you, a part of his journey, too, do we think we're going to be able to see Bucky? We've seen throughout the whole series now.

Him basically, there's always jokes about he was there when the Hobbit was made. there was jokes about whether he had listened to Marvin Gay. So I want to know, is that also part of his journey, where maybe he can go on a date, he can go watch some movies, he can see all of the music and all of the books he missed out on when he was the Winter Soldier? I hope so.

I really do. I really do. You know, it's, again, no accident that we saw Bucky waking up on the floor of his apartment. Again, a call back to Winter Soldier and the conversation between Sam and Sam and Sam. Steve about coming back from war and trying to acclimate a new to the rhythm of a very different kind of life, where do we see Bucky in this episode on a couch, you know? And maybe the next step is

that marshmallow to him anymore. And I'm rooting for that for him. What book and album are you giving him? First thing out, when he comes away, Wolf, what are you giving him? Goodness. You know, I'd like to invite him over and he can peruse my book collection. That's what we like to meet. Maybe we can enjoy some reading time together. What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what music are you putting on this at the mood? Let's give Bucky some Dylan. Ooh, some Dylan.

He wasn't alive during Dylan or he wasn't himself. Let's give him some blood on the tracks, some blonde and blonde. I love this. There's a rich text, you know? He takes out Harry Potter. Oh, man. Well, as you know, that would be my, my, my. greatest pleasure to read Harry Potter to Bucky. I'll play for Bucky if you see her say hello.

My favorite Bob Dylan song. I love sad songs and sad movies in case you can't tell Charles, but because I would want him to find joy and purpose and possibility in that sadness, you know? We love it. We love this. Buckie, swipe right. Swipe right. That segues very nicely, though, into our first mailbag segment of the day. We're going to do the mailbag a little differently today because the whole pod is very much oriented around questions we have about the characters. We're going to mix in the mailbag as we go. So it is time for our first delivery detour with Jomey. Jomey.

Welcome. What do we got? Happy to be here as always. How's everybody doing today? amazing. I, stomach pain aside, I'm just delighted

to be here with you and Charles. Working through it. Hey, this is your flu pot right here. You're doing it. Let's get into it.

All right. Eugene Green from Twitter asks, does Mallory ship Bucky and Sarah? So Charles and Van disagreed on this. Oh,

it was the midnight boys. It could not come, can not come to a great to well with this topic. I, I absolutely do. And I ship Bucky with everyone.

I ship Sarah with everyone. They're great. They're just both great. Who wouldn't want to be in love with either of them? I just, when Bucky says, I'm Bucky and he's just smiling. Sarah,

Sarah, and then Sam later saying, don't flirt with my sister. Great stuff. I'm all in. I'm all in. Bucky is not ready to be a father. He's just,

he has too much work to do. The minute Sarah's kids ask him to play Fortnite, Bucky's brain is just going to like dissolve into pudding. Bucky's never been one for the memes. No, but I saw something that like really made sense to me this week. I can't remember the person. But, you know, we've seen episode of one where Bucky can't, you know, flirt to save his life, man, you know, he's struggling.

And then they go on this journey and now like all of a sudden, he's like, hey, Sarah, you know what I'm saying? That's true. So he needed Yuri to facilitate the, the date in the first episode with Leah. That's true. Yeah. So it's like,

you know, it's a little bit of growth for our guy, you know? We haven't seen him flirt since, what, the first Avenger? Tried to get that dance with Peggy. But Peggy,

yeah. I've always loved that moment so much when she's, you know, she, Peggy and Steve were just eye fucking each other the whole time as Bucky's trying to cut in for the dance. And then Bucky's like, this is a horrible nightmare.

Yeah. Funny. I'm in, I'm invisible now. Please. Can I have a, can I have a Malback question

for you, Mal? Yes. Go for it. On a scale from one to ten, what would you rate Bucky's flirting game?

Boy, so his actual flirting game, I give, I think Jomey's right here to identify that it's morphed from maybe like a,

like a three to a six and a half. But here's the thing. It's a family-friendly podcast, so I'll try to keep it that. he's just so good looking it doesn't matter. Wait, that's also like, that it goes to my theory where it's like,

Bucky has such a magnetic smile that he knows he doesn't have to have a 10 out of 10 flurking. Yeah. He just has to flash the pearly whites. Exactly. And that's it. That's all he needs. Facts.

Thanks. Oh, Bucky. Boy, we're all rooting for you, Buck. He's going to be all right. I feel like that man, he's going to be okay. I hope he and he and Leah continue their date. You know, finish the game of battleship. He really fucked that up, ghosted mid-date.

Not cool. Not cool at all. Another amends that he needs to make. All right. Let's go to John Walker here for a minute. We're going to have to pick up the pace here for the rest of the character questions. Number three, is John Walker turning himself into U.S. agent? Are we going to meet U.S. agent in the?

finale. Absolutely. Without question. We're going to see U.S. agent that Chuck Tridamus is putting that out there. But the other question that you had, can he redeem himself? And my whole thing, does John Walker even think that he needs to be redeemed? That's my question. I think that, first of all, I'll just, I'll just note that I loved in the singer where we saw him making the shield how forcefully that sequence recalled Tony, of course, the hammering away, the hammering sound of forging his first Iron Man suit in the first Iron Man film,

but how it was so clearly the, like, noxious inverse of that and what it means to be pursuing something like that, that mantle, that power, that path, because you think that you deserve it and you're not going to let anybody tell you otherwise. I agree with you. We'll meet U.S. Agent in this episode. I think that regardless, though,

of what the plot-centric next step is for Walker and what the answer to that question is, it's really about what led him there and what that outcome speaks to and reveals, you know, the question of how this show wants us to feel about Walker is, I think, an interesting one because there's a lot that's tied up in his story, and there was a lot that was tied up in his arc in this episode. But, like, for me personally, the answer is pretty clear.

You know, I think that the commentary behind him saying, you built me, Senator, I am Captain America. That whole speech about I lived my life by your mandates. Crucially, that sequence, that I am Captain America line, the way he says it, on the heels of what John Walker has done, what he has chosen to do, choosing to take the serum, choosing to execute Nico, every choice he's made, every step along the way, what that said about what it means to embody that aspect of America

and the American experience was obviously crucial and important. But I don't think we can allow ourselves for a second to separate John Walker's own culpability from the institutions that also bear it. You know, there's that moment out in the hall. We're going to talk about our dear contessa later today. But right before she walks up, John is sitting with his wife,

and he says, they just do not know what it takes to be Captain America. They just don't. As though there would be any justification tied up in that statement for what he had done and what he intends to do next. The key to John Walker to me and the key for establishing him as such a clear foil for the heroes of the story is that he does not understand at all that real grace in power comes from restraint.

Wow. I love that. I quote this Gandalf line all the time because it's, I think, one of the best in the history of fantasy stories. But, you know, when Gandalf says to Frodo, it was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. And you think of how rare that is,

that somebody in the position of power, when somebody else is at their mercy, decides not to act and realizes that that's what real strength is. And John Walker has proven and time and again, that that's not what he believes in and is not what he will decide to do. And I think it's really important to say that I don't think the show is judging him at all from needing help.

That is key to note because I think that's part of the delicate balance here. The show is not condemning his service. You know, I think, in fact, quite the opposite because many of the characters that we root for as viewers have served, though I do think the show is interested in interrogating the military industrial complex and it has done so quite consistently across the season. I do not think the show is condemning his trauma. I think that many of the characters, that's again been another through line that processing that trauma and working toward recovery is commendable. I think that the show is clearly condemning the systems,

the institutional failures and decay that helped prop him up and that have failed so many. But the key is that that is, again, not mutually exclusive from the fact that Walker has agency and has with that agency made the wrong decisions,

done the thing he said he didn't want to do, which was fail as Captain America. And the show is indicting his might is right approach specifically. And what that says about American power and imperialism and failures. Well, I mean, even if you go back to that second episode, what he says, going back after watching episode five,

when he says to his wife, everybody in the world expects me to be something and I don't want to fail them, I look at that line differently now because I think it's speaking. to kind of this idea of American exceptionalism, John Walker and the systems honestly in place that created him had made him think

that America is the center of the world and that by a connection, him being Captain America puts him at the center and he's the only one who can do it. And he's thinking that the whole world is looking at him to be this symbol. And I think when he juxtaposed that against Sam, Sam, who's also a candidate for Captain America,

is doing the work. He's going back to the past. When he gets introduced to Isaiah, he goes back to him in episode five. And he asked him, why couldn't he pick up the mantle? He's trying to learn about what it actually took for two Captain America,

Steve and Isaiah. And I think that is so interesting is that these institutions have made John Walker thinks he's the center of the universe. And everything is riding on his shoulder when I think Sam is realizing that, no, like, these other Captain Americas are building me up. I'm learning from them.

I'm learning from the past to chart a new future where John Walker doesn't think he needs that. And I think that's such an interesting juxtaposition of what makes Sam such a good candidate for Captain America and what makes John Walker such a bad candidate. I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think another line in the MCU that we all recall and turn too often is Tony's Iron Man 3, we create our own. demons line, because again, that's very core to these stories. And, you know, Walker's arc in this

season, it's the embodiment of that hubris. And hubris is anathema of Sam. That's why he's really the worthy hero. No, absolutely. Absolutely. So honestly, I feel bad for John. I feel bad for my man. But hey, you're not the center of the universe. And if we've learned anything through these these five episodes, Uncle Sam is coming. And he's coming with that shield. Let's spend a minute here. Number four on our guy Barron Zemo. Just a moment because it felt like maybe this was the conclusion of Zemo's journey in this season of TV. So that's my question for you.

Will we see Zemo again this season? Will we see him again in Falcon in the Winter Soldier or in the MCU? I think that we can assume that the latter is a guarantee. But will we see him again this season or is this it? Is that a wrap? It can't be. It can't be. You can't watch my man put up that many points in that many episodes

for him to just walk off silently into the night in episode five. He's coming back and he's coming back with a vengeance. And Chuck Chardomis will put all of his chips at the center of the table on that bet. So how do you see that happening then? We know that the door you're taking him to the raft. Again, why he was not at the raft to begin with. I will never ever understand.

But are you predicting that he escapes as quickly as he gets there or that something happens inside the confines of the raft that sets up his next move? So I don't, I'm not 100% positive how I think it will happen, but story-wise, what we know about characters is that, like, everybody so far has gotten their moment. Bucky has gotten his moment to realize who he is. Sam opened up the chest.

And he's on the verge of becoming Captain America. And I think the thing that has not been answered for Zemo is that he has helped two people put another Captain America in place. And there's a bunch of super soldiers running around. And to me, Zemo has to figure out where he lands. Because the thing that's going to be hard for any Thunderbolts, potential property, is how does Zemo lead a bunch of super soldiers or metahumans when he doesn't believe in them?

And I think that part of that is him maybe coming to the realization for me to destroy all super soldiers, for me to destroy all superheroes, I might have to become one. I might have to become what I hate the most to take all of these people down. Again, we create our own demons. Yes, and that's why I think we have not seen the last of him

and he will probably be popping up in the last episode. I definitely agree with the tension at the heart of his MCU storyline currently. I've been talking about that all season because I don't quite know still how they're going to reconcile that. You know, his entire story in Captain America's Civil War, but every stated declaration this season two, you know, I have no intention to leave my work unfinished. I think that the moment he shared with Bucky where he told him that he had decided not to kill him felt like a step in that direction of showing how. his own internal thinking has evolved, it doesn't have to be for him. I'm eliminating everybody who has the serum inside of them. Superheroes, super soldiers cannot be allowed to exist, even though

he has said that literally allowed. But I thought what was really interesting about the, you know, the moment with the bullets cascading out of Bucky's hand and Zemo looking down at them was that he realized and had to accept that he was wrong about somebody. And for a character like Zemo, realizing that he doesn't know everything, that he, you know, we're not in Queen's Gambit. He's not actually able to look up at the ceiling and see how every piece is going to move across the chessboard until the end game that he saw it. He can't actually manipulate and control every single person. That's the real loss for him. That's the real defeat.

I mean, the inverse of that was, of course, the source of his victory, you know, saying to Everett Ross, like, did I lose at the end of, Captain America Civil War when he's sitting in a cell because he knew that he had achieved his goal of separating the Avengers of tearing them down from within. So this felt a little bit like the inverse of that to me in a way that I think could open up that pathway for him moving forward. I think that the question of whether our collective thunderbolt certainty

was premature or not, I don't know. I think that's probably still ultimately where it's going, right? But my prediction, I think that the bulk of the finale is going to center on the action in New York. I agree, though, that it would be frankly bizarre. I get how elemental Zbo was to this season to just not see him again. I think he's going to be the stinger. I think that whether it's who he meets in the raft and that sparks something in him to your point about, well, you know, you can't beat him. Join him and make them your own and then try to beat him.

or whether perhaps the contessa, Val don't call her Val, could come to find him in the raft at the end. That's like been picking up momentum as a theory out in the fandom and I kind of like that. Is that, is that the Nick Fury moment when he comes to Tony?

Exactly, that it would be a parallel to that. And she's the dark Nick Fury, as they've said, right? Not only because of her comics connection to the character, but, you know, the spy. And again, I like that as moving forward antagonist for Sam because I always think back to the moment at the end of Winter Soldier when Nick Fury tried to get Sam to go with him, and Sam was like, I'm not a spy, I'm a soldier.

And so setting these spies as the people who he has to contend with. Before we get out of Zemo corner, I do find it very entertaining that like Zemo's Achilles heel, ultimately is that, When he first meets Bucky again, he tries to use the codes. And Zemo thinks people are incapable of change. And like for most of the series, he goes through it, pulling at people's strings because he knows you really haven't changed.

And the reason that Bucky can beat him is because Bucky fundamentally changes who he is. And Zemo does not know how to deal with that. And I think that's such a beautiful way for him to be taken down, like he said, by his own hubris. Well, either taken down by it or that is also. also his path towards some sort of change. Because, you know, Zimo deals in absolutes. And that is informed by his own loss and his own pain and his own suffering, his own trauma, again, a through line of the show. But what do we know from one of my many husbands, Obi-One?

Only a Sith deals in absolutes, Charles. You know? Dual of the fates. Oh, my gosh. I'm getting run over. You got to find that nuance. And maybe realizing that dealing in absolutes with a character like Bucky,

who I think he develops begrudging affection for, will help him evolve. And maybe that's how we ultimately reconcile what seemed before like an unsolvable tension between the path that he seemed to be moving forward on and his stated worldview in the universe. Can't wait for Zemo to be back whatever form it takes.

What a character. We're going to go, like, lightning around speed through the rest of these. Number five, we've reached the moment in the podcast where we have to talk about the flag smashers for a minute. I'm sorry. But here's what I'm interested in asking you. Not will Carly win, not will Carly lose, not will Walker, fine Carly. I think we can all agree that after the exchange we saw between Lamar's family and Walker, that he is going to go. find Carly and actually find the person who killed Lamar.

What I'm interested in asking you is, will Carly actually lose the flag smashers? Will she lose her fellow super soldiers and her allies? Because rewatching, that's the thing that has stood out to me. Dovich is not in, not in to what she's doing. I increasingly feel like that's where this is heading, that her own teammates are going to turn on her because they cannot sanction her methods.

And she, you know, not to go all Zemo here and start speaking about Carly the way that he has, but she has completely lost her moral compass. And, you know, one of the, again, through lines of the discussion of the show over the course of the season, and in the run-up to it, you know,

in the way that the show was marketed, in the way that Spellman and the creators have discussed it, the villain who has a point, that idea is really central to the premise.

But Carly has fully become A, the ends justify the means character. And so the fact that she is trying to help people, the fact that Sam tried to reach out to her, tried to find that bridge

of compassion and humanity, does not actually change the fact that she bombed the GRC depot, stated that she would do it again unless demands were met, set out to kill Captain America, threatened Sam's sister, who was not a part of this. You know, said later, I wasn't going to hurt her, but that's a tactic that she deployed. On it on the list goes, killed Lamar,

is now setting out to prevent the GRC patch out, vote through violent means. She has become an extremist, and I think that the people who are closest to her who are fighting for ideals may not be okay with that. We have heard Dovich say multiple times that he's not. Sam pushed her in episode four,

asking her, pushing her, what is the difference between you and the tyrants that you're trying to fight against And I think the whole thing is if the flag smashers are fighting against TRD and they're being led by a tyrant, they're going to have to rebel. Because at this point, I think Carly, I think it is very funny that for all of the antagonists in this, the moment that they lost what they were fighting for was the moment when they killed. The moment when John Walker kills one of the flag smashers, the moment that Carly blows up the GRC building, it's showing that like when all of these figures thinks the ends justify the means, they become worse than the things that they're fighting against.

And I think that the flag smashers have to break apart from her. And it's already that, that thread is already unwinding. And I'm just excited to see like, what is the final shot where they're just like, they drop the mass. We're like, we can't do this anymore, Carly. We're out. No, I totally agree. I mean, we saw Dovich's response to the bombing earlier in the season.

And then here, when Badrock arrives, He says, you know, come on, so we're working with criminals now. And Carly's response is, haven't you heard, we are criminals? You know, it's like a little bit of a classic. You become the thing you hate along the way. The violence and the control that she was rebelling against, the, again, hubris and, you know, frankly greed at the heart of the idea that anybody has the right to make decisions for other people is now to, to your point, exactly what she's doing.

And I agree, I think the people who set out on this mission with her initially, who do still prize those ideals and hold them sacred and are fighting for that not only for themselves, but for each other, can't stand by and let her corrupt the heart of their fight. They can't. So I think her, I think her fellows will turn on her. I'm ready for it. she needs to wait for that business car from Val because just like John Walker,

her buds are walking away. Oh boy. So that gets us nicely to our next question because as mentioned, Batroc showed up. He was sent by Sharon Carter. And so that's our sixth question, Charles.

What is Sharon's secret? What are we going to finally learn? Is she the power broker? Is she running the flag smashers? Is she secretly working? with Shield or the CIA, Nick Fury, another agency. Are we getting Femforce? Is she working with Val? What reveal are we going to get in the finale for our girl, Sharon Carter?

This might be Galaxy Brain Moment. Let's do it. Bring it. Give me all your God. What if the power broker isn't a person? What if Sharon is working for Power Broker Inc? What if it is a business? And the reason that they haven't revealed it yet is because it's a massive organization

a la Leviathan. And I think the reason that my brain is going there is I'm like, are they going to introduce a new character in the sixth episode? Most likely not. But the way Sharon has been maneuvering, especially in Madripor, she's basically like, not the CEO, I don't know, the CMO of this is wild the corporation. No, she can't be CMO. That's Jomey's title.

Chief Meme officer. He assigned it to himself a few episodes ago. Jomey's the power broker. You got to stay in the loop, Charles. Come on now. Come on now. So, yes, I think if Sharon's secret, I don't think she's running the flag smashers.

I don't think she's the power broker, but I do think that she's working for an organization. I think she is, you know, the coach, send in all the plays of something that's bigger than her, which is Leviathan. And you could put everything on that as well. Okay.

So I'm going to present now a galaxy brain theory of my own in light of that Leviathan comment because, you know, I know you and Van on Friday's episode discussed with Val, don't call her Val, his introduction to the story, whether that might foretell Leviathan. Bear with me for a moment here. All right, I'm in.

I'm buckled in. The artwork. What has been the point of the artwork in Sharon's arc this season? I've been thinking about this a lot. And the painting that the camera lingered on this episode, as she was on the phone with Bathtrock, was, I believe, Monase woman with a parasol, a.k.a. Madame Monet and her son.

Madam. Is that a Madam Hydra clue and connection that points us toward Val and Sharon actually being aligned in where this is heading? What do you think? Oh, man, I strapped into the space shuttle to go to the galaxy corner and it paid off. I love this. I hope I don't get a lot of tweets from

from art experts who are like, that's not what that painting is. But I think that's what it is. That would be a tough peep for me. So Madame, potentially Val Madame Hydra, Femme Force, or that's like she has a secret,

like little cable. Ooh, does that mean potentially Carly joins up? I could see it. I could see it. I mean, Carly definitely seems like someone that Val don't call her Val

will pursue for sure. But again, this is part of the heart of the mystery that we need to, to finally like unfurl with Sharon because if she is the power broker, then Carly is her enemy. If she's running the flag smashers, then maybe Carly is her ally.

I still think that Sharon will be revealed as the power broker. I just think there's too much evidence at this point for that not to be the case. Though, of course, I love a red herring as much as the next viewer. It's too obvious to me. It's too, it's like, I'm like, that is the choice. Yeah, at this point it does feel like quite clear. So almost too clear, maybe. But I do agree with you, though.

I don't think it could be a new character at this point. I think that would be strange. I think it has to be somebody we've spent time with. But what I like about your prediction about the ink, that fits very much and feels of a piece with the larger approach of the season, you know, the real villains as you and Van. And we've all talked about all season being ideas, you know, these elements.

in society, these forces, not just one person, but the structures that fail so many people. So that would be, I think, thematically of a piece. I still think it's Sharon. I mean, the last prediction I had was, is it Nick? Because we have the secret invasion coming. We know secret invasion, the scrolls have powers. I was just like, is it potentially Nick Fury?

Okay, two things. Perfect segue into our next delivery detour with Joe and me, because we have a scroll question. So let's get to that now, but also just quickly before then, you mentioned Secret Invasion. The cast that they are assembling for Secret Invasion.

Charles, why did you do this, bro? Amazing. We're going to be here all day. We need to do a whole episode on the Amelia Clark News. I'm overwhelmed. Who do you think Amelia is?

If she's Agent Brand, I literally, someone's going to have to revive me. Someone's going to have to revive me. It won't be me. because I will need the same thing. Okay, Jomey. Let's get into it.

What's our next delivery here? We got a lot of scroll questions. This one is from Jillian N. Is Sheridan a scroll and also the power broker? What do you think, Charles? Could Sharon be a scroll? I say no. I don't think Sharon's a scroll.

I would not be surprised if when Sharon was abandoned, the only person who was taken care of her was next. So I think she might be aligned with the scrolls. I like that. I like that. I think that we should not lose sight of the fact that, yes, we know secret invasion is coming, and a lot of threads are going to point to that and connect to that.

However, while Spider-Man far from home feels like 100 years ago, it was only a couple MCU installments ago. It was the last film with Phase 3, and all we've had since is Wandavision and now the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I think another scroll reveal that close to the scroll reveal we got at the end of Far From Home would actually really surprise me. So I say no, but I like your prediction about her being aligned.

Okay. Number seven then, we kind of just hit this, but let's just put a bow on it. Who is the Powerbroker last chance to make a formal prediction? I think it's Sharon. You think it's going to be Powerbroker Inc. Any other theory you want to put out there? I just think it's going to be Powerbroker Inc. And I think what we're going to find is instead of it being one person, it'll be a little bit of thou, not thou.

It'll be a little bit of Sharon. Well, a bunch of people are going to come together and we're going to realize power broker is an institution just like the American government, just like the GRC. One more thing that our heroes have to face. I'm sticking with Sharon. I can't get over the beam of blue light that looked exactly like the Super Soldier's theorem behind her a couple episodes ago. Can't shake it. But we do have a related mailbag question. And it's time for another delivery detour already.

This question is from Twitter, Derek Stoggel, at Derek S. the Red. The senator seems suss to me. He gave John Walker the Captain America moniker to fight the flags matches. Take it away when John Walker was no longer useful and is part of the GRC. Would not be surprised if the senator

was the power bark of the whole time or part of a twist in the finale. Interesting. What I like about this question is that it speaks to how many, theories there are actually still about who the power broker could be with only one episode to go, which I love. That's fun.

I don't think the senator is the power broker, though he's definitely a piece of shit. I think we can all agree on that. Facts. Do you think there's any chance? I think it's a wonderful theory. Like, I can see why. Like, if this was maybe,

maybe like episode three, I might be on board. The reason I'm not on board now is because I think the senator isn't actually an interesting enough character. I can't see the senator. Like, we have an emotional attachment to a Sharon. Right. You know?

Yes. That's so much more narratively rich. Yes. Whereas the senator, he's popped up here and there. And like for them to develop him into a three-dimensional character by episode six is like a very tall order. So I can't believe it's him. No, I'm with.

My theory is, you know, John Walker has to go go to New York. You know, I'm saying. He's got a pass to D.C. He might see old boy with the, you know, the shield he got off, you know, Etsy. And well, he's in New York. The senators in New York because he's at the vote. Right? He's at the jersey. He might, yeah. He might

send the senator, you know, home to see Jesus, you know. That's just my theory. Oh, boy. That's my theory. Like, we see the senator, like, John Walker killed the senator and that's his full turn, you know, from I'm America's boy to, I'm finally, like, I'm done with it. Maybe the

Senator's a scraw. Who knows? Okay. Number eight, will Torres become new falcon in the finale? I think we agree that that's definitely happening. Will we see it in the finale now that he has the wings? The reason I think it will be very, very tough to see him in the wings. Maybe this will be one of two stingers is that they have so many characters they have to juggle.

We were just talking about, is Zemo going to come back? Is potentially the Dora Malagia going to come back? And now we're thrown in like a new falcon. when like potentially Bucky might have to become the white wolf. And are we going to see any more of thou? To introduce another hero this late into the game is a very tall order. So I, my prediction is yes, he will become the Falcon, but we're going to probably see him in maybe the first stinger of two.

Okay. I love that. I definitely think we're going to see it in this episode. I could see it in the stinger. That makes a lot of sense to me. But I think that the relationship that has developed between Sam and Torres, the reliance that they have on each other, the amount of times

that we've seen Sam reach out, I think he calls him in. I think he calls him in to the showdown in New York. And Torres, you know, so it's so cool to see him, like, running his hands over the wings and Sam saying,

keep them. And we obviously know from the comics that he becomes Falcon. I guess it might be time. It's sad for me that I have to formally retire my introduced actual living vampirms Pyric Falcon bird red wing into the story and morphist DNA with Torres so that we get

bird human hybrid Torres. That's probably not happening at this point. But, you know, I was thinking back to the moment in the first episode where Sam and Torres are having tea and Sam is sitting fixing Red Wing. Torres like reaches out and he's got a suggestion and he wants to help. And he I like that because now thinking back now that he has the broken wings, we know that his instinct is to try to build and repair and fix. And that's another through line of the season, right? So I think he'll get to work right away on trying to rebuild the XO Falcon suit. And I think when he gets the call from Sam, will they be using eye message still to communicate

at this point? Who can say? But I think he flies in and we see him. I mean, it'll also be a nice parallel from the first episode when Torres gets his ass handed to him by a super soldier for him to now fight. the flack smashers again and prove once again you don't need to be a super soldier to be a hero yes and where was he in the premiere too he was down watching sam cheering you know he's a fan loves the avengers he's got his cap is on the moon theory and for him to then become a part of it to go from being like

audience avatar to one of the heroes i think would be awesome i changed my he's he's showing up he's showing up the wings he's the new pocket i love it Okay. We've talked about her a couple times already. Number nine, what role will? Contessa Valentina, Allegro, DeFontaine, Val, don't call her Val. Just keep it in your head. Play, moving forward. Could she be the power broker? Oh, my God. The reason I don't think she's like she would be the like the only power broker is is because if she was supposed to show up in Black Widow first. Yes. Them having this whole mystery about who the power broker is would be very, very weird. if we had already known who the contestant was.

That's true. So I don't think that's going to happen. I also don't know if we're going to see her again in this besides a stinger. To me, I'm just like, ooh, that might be too much. But she did have that conversation with John Walker about the phone call. So I feel like that has to bear fruit here, and we have to see that phone call. But I also love the idea of her showing up at the raft and finding Zemo. That's my thing.

I love this idea of her becoming like the dark Nick Fury. I love it. So I think we're going to see her again. I just don't think it's going to be in the action. I think it's her call. Maybe it's not Thunderbolts. Maybe it's the Dark Avengers. We don't know.

That would be amazing. Yeah, I think we'll get her in the episode. I think it will be, again, I guess, how many stingers can there possibly be? But it feels like a stinger candidate, maybe just a quick flash during the episode. You know, you mentioned the Black Widow connection, Joanna Robinson Vanity Fair, friend of the pod, had a great story about how. the contesta was originally supposed to be introduced in that movie.

You start to think of what her role there could be again on the wider spy network, knowing her comics history and her connection to that sleeper agent aspect of the story, but also how that might manifest in terms of who she's recruiting. Elena, perhaps, what kind of team she's working

to build. The theories in the fandom are already just bumming to the fore. Delivery detour, I think. I think you skipped ahead. That's our next delivery detour, right? Let's do it. Bring it, Jomey. We got one.

Yes, we do. From Facebook, my man, J.B. If Val is recruiting for the Thunderbolts, who else might she recruit besides Zimo, John Walker, or Elena? My picks are Ghost from Ant Man and Leader from Hulk. You want to go first? You want to go first, Matt?

No. You just run us through all of your theories here. I know you have to have like 15 predictions here. I think Petrach. But Trach has to go in there. He's been he's been leaping a lot. So I do think But Troc is honestly there. Ghost, I don't know.

Ghost had kind of like a, like a nice sendoff. Her becoming a villain again? The problem I'm finding with this is that the MCU has like probably not so smartly killed off most of their villains in all of the movies. Abomination is still around somewhere. Blonski's coming. Well, we know Blonsky's coming back. We know Blancke's coming to Disney Plus. So.

Blombson. potentially. Oh, man. Who else? Maybe Darren Cross will come back from the quantum realm. That's a possibility. You can come back now.

He doesn't seem like someone who works well as part of a team, though. Is Crossbones dead? Crossbones blew. He blew up. Yeah, he blew up. Damn. I'm like, I'm trying to think of it.

Who are there, or they could go in the opposite direction where instead of it being villains that we already know, it's the sea listers. just like in their original Thunderbolts. So I think that's also another way that they can go where Zemo is finding basically a bunch of villains

that we've never met before. I think that actually might be more up their alley because all of these villains, from what I'm seeing, I'm sorry, but Leader, do we really, do we really want him? Hey, put some of us back on Tim Blake Nelson. Come on, man. I do want Leader. But I think it definitely feels like why Zemo is heading to the raft, right?

Whether it's Zemo or Val, like we're going to a recruiting ground for the Thunderbolts, surely. Yes. So I like the idea of meeting new characters. That's a good call. Okay. Finally. Number 10. Broad one here.

What other finale surprises may we? I was going to ask you what you thought we might see in a Stinger, but we've both made 17 Stinger predictions already. I think we're out of Stinger space. Do you think we'll get another surprise cameo? Any other character introductions? Could we see Eli? Emerges Patriot in the finale. Will we get Old Man Steve on the moon

or in his own dimension with Peggy or anything else? Will we get a new location? Any other surprises coming our way? Damn, I think the only new one, and we've already talked about it, is Will Torres becoming the Falcon. I do think that if this goes off our last delivery tour,

if we get the stinger of Zimo at the raft, I could see like a wide shot where we see a bunch of villains in their almost like Spider-Man when we got kind of like the Scorpion little cameo. Oh, yeah. Like I could see maybe we get a few names, like it's roll call. Volcher and Scorpion just having a chat.

Yeah, so that, if we're doing cameos, I don't know if we'll see characters. I could see maybe some illusions to like some Thunderbolts out there. Man, new locations. I can't. There's no way that they could. Let's go to the moon. Let's hang out with Steve.

Moon Man's team Yeah, that's it. Partially, I want to say, do we get a Nick Fury cameo? That would be great. So this is where I need to personally just get better about this. I get so hung up on the timeline

with stuff like this because far from home is set after the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Now, on the one hand, Spider-Man Homecoming made one of the worst timeline errors and the whole MCU to date. So I remember when we were working on Bintra on Marvel, and I was talking about it.

And Zach Cram was like, you just got to let go of the timeline stuff when you're talking about the Spider-Man movies. You know, there's the Sony factor there, and it's just been a little imprecise. However, I consider the Midtown Tech, Jason and Betty in Memorium Video, to be not only canon, but sacred canon. And we know from that that that film is set eight months after the blip. Falcon is set six months after the blip. So I raised that just to say the Fury scroll reveal in that film takes place after what we're currently watching in Falcon, at least in the timeline. So, but maybe that's actually, maybe that's actually good and helpful because we could get further clarity about when the switch took place. if he is in the story in this capacity,

also I guess it could be Delos still. The reason I wanted to say Nick Fury is because this whole season has been very indebted to Captain America, the Winter Soldier, and Nick was such a foundational character in that. And if Sharon has popped up, everyone has popped up, Nick has to have thoughts on everything that's going on right now. It's true.

I would love to see him. Maybe he had Val. can share a moment talking about their last romantic encounter. Oh, maybe we get also a War Machine little thing. You never know. Yes. War Machine just popped up in the first episode. I don't think he's actually coming.

But like if we're talking about people who are like, yeah, I'll film some stuff. Maybe we get War Machine popping in. I think TD has been on that corner because he's been watching the end credits closely. And the missing spaces in the end credits, as he likes to mention. So that would be great. Okay. We have one closing note here. It's our final delivery detour of the episode. From Mark Haley on Facebook. How do we feel about Eli's complete inability to hit an eight-foot jumper? Not on the mutant growth hormone yet, I guess. Charles.

The Ben Simmons of the MCU. Eli shoots with the wrong hand is the take I'm gone with. He shoots with the wrong hand. My man's is good. I will say that took me out of the episode. What I saw that shot, it didn't even hit the rim. I'm like, bro, they really did Patriot that bad. They really did Patriot that bad. I would have begged for another. I need another shot.

Like, run it back, you know, places, everybody. I'm at least in the rim. Wasn't even playing defense. Like, I was like, what do we do? Nah. I mean, Pengborn got like an entire game seven NBA finals level performance out on the court and Dr. Strange. So we know that the MCU is committed to basketball.

sequences. Real quick, Mal, before we go, top three, who are the top three basketball players in the MCU? No powers. Definitely Pangorn. It's his passion. It has to be Hawkeye then because Hawkeye, you know, hand-eye coordination can't miss, right? Had to stop playing golf because it's so boring to just get 18 holes in one. So maybe he went to the court after. I'm going to go with Nick Fury before the Captain Marvel Nick Fury before the eye gets gouged out. You know who's good at basketball? I don't know if they have basketball, you know, on the planet, in the Cree, you know, where they live.

But Ronan, you know, Lee Pace is 6'6. He should have been guarding the lane instead of fighting the Guardians of the Galaxy. All right. I know, you know, I know he got some moves when you're that tall, you know what I'm saying? so he, Ronin's probably probably my pick. You could use the same logic for Drax, right? Our literal guy, nothing gets over his head.

He would catch it. Imagine just blocks from Drex. Who's my man with the horns and Thor? Heimdahl? Yes. If we're using powers, Heimdahl is my number one. He can see everything coming. No, he can't, though. X-1 Danger's coming.

Malikith was on his front door before he even realized. He's not going to see a backdoor cut. going to turn around and the guy is going to be gone with for a layup. Absolutely not. When it's immediate danger, he don't see it. He don't see it.

Absolutely not. He absolutely getting lost on defense. Like he's getting screened off. Right. Someone's going right past him. No, no. I'm sorry. This is the Midnight Boys derailment.

I derailed your pod, bow. I'm so sorry. No. It's a beautiful end note. Friends, these boots are not made for walking. as Val would say, or for podcasting. So it's time to wrap today's episode. I'm not wearing boots.

I'm wearing slippers and pajama pants, just to be clear, in the interest of candor. Follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your episodes. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ringerverse. Join the Ringerverse Facebook group. Some great chatter in the Facebook group. Thank you to everyone for the questions today for the mailbag.

Send us your mailbag questions for next week's episode as well. And again, remember, keep coming into the Ringerverse. Check back on Friday. for the instant reactions to the Falcon and the Winter Soldier finale from the Midnight Boys. Dan and Charles. Thank you as always. It's our producer, Steve Allman,

as well as to T.D. St. Matthew Daniel, Arjuna Ramgapal, and the entire production team for their help with today's episode. Thank you to Charles and Jomey for joining me today. What a blast. I will be with you next Tuesday to chat about the Falcons. final and the entire season. Until then, hold on to this business card, even if there's nothing on it. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy?

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