The Ringer-Verse - A ‘Doctor Who’ Viewing Guide (Part 2) | House of R

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

It's time to Allons-y, Alonso! Mal and Jo are here to offer up the second part of their dive into ‘Doctor Who’ (10:49). They dive into the genius performance of David Tennant as the tenth doctor, as well as his many companions and their wondrous adventures (83:14). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matter. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to by Nas Energy. Every answer to Dirt sweat and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-bought place.

They're all jammed inside every can of Nass energy, high-performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage, and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of Nass energy and get after it. When they made this particular hero, they didn't give them a gun. They gave them a screwdriver to fix things. They didn't give them a tank or a warship or an X-wing fighter, they gave him a coal box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower or pointy ears or a heat ray. They gave him an extra heart. They gave him two hearts. And that's an extraordinary thing. There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the doctor. To the ringerverse here in Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I'm just a

Joanna Robinson. And joining me today, she's a bit rude, but not a ginger. It's Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. Oh, Joanna, she'll contain my wit in case I do you further injury. We are here to talk about Doctor Who. This is part two of our Doctor Who rewatch slash first time watch podcast Extravaganza series that voice you heard at the top of the episode. That is Stephen Moffat. He is a writer on Doctor Who who we will be talking about today and then eventually became the showrunner on Doctor Who. And if he were like, was someone breathing heavily into the mic? Yeah, that was Matt Smith.

It was on a panel. It was Matt Smith hyperventilating at the thing Stephen Moffitt said. So don't come for our producer, Steve. He didn't do anything wrong. Blame Matt Smith for the mouth breathing. Okay. Here we are. Talk about Doctor Who.

Before we get into everything, we're going to do, of course, our usual. This is a funny one. Programming reminders. Where are we in time and space? Mallory and I are currently in Sweden. this is coming to you now from the past What's going on over the Midnight Boys? They're doing some fun stuff.

I don't know. What should I say? I should have prepared for this. The whole Ring of Earth crew will be covering Across the Spider-Verse. A film we're so excited about next week. The Midnight Boys, Poo-Pew, will have their Friday reaction to it.

We will be back on the Monday to talk about it. Wall-to-Wall. Spider-Verse cover. How excited are you for Across the Spider-Viverse, Mallory? I'm unbelievably excited. I absolutely adore the first film. I can't wait for the second. Good reminder for anyone who hasn't checked it out yet to listen to our spring and summer height meter to hear what else we're excited for and where Spider-Verse ranked on our countdown of the 10 things we're most excited for in the rest of spring and summer.

Spoiler alert. Very high. All right. So that's program reminders. Over on the prestige feed, by the way, Mallory and I are covering yellow jackets. there's some succession coverage going on over there. There's also a bunch of fun, like, other stuff happening in the Ring ofverse. So how can folks follow all of that?

Our video game coverage is ramping up. All sorts of the Mint Edition boys are popping in and out. Like, how can folks make sure they catch all of it, Mallory? Yeah, check out the Zelda pods. Check out everything that we're doing in the Ringerverse. Check out everything on Prestige TV. Try out by content for Joe and Neil and Dave. All of it.

Keep up on what's happening by following. following the pods on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're at it, follow along on the social media platform of your choosing. The ringerverse crew is everywhere. And if you have questions, theories, thoughts, feelings, joys, concerns, apples, things. Send your emails to the always pipe and hot, much like a delicious warm fruit pie. Hobbit to Dragons at gmail.com.

I waited until I took a like a mouthful of coffee before she said that gross. I know you have a lot of coffee on hand if something goes wrong with that sip, so. Times are tough. Times are tough over here in the Robinson household. We're scrounging for caffeine. Okay. Spoiler warning. Yeah.

We are today talking about Doctor Who season two and season two and season three. These are the first two seasons of David Tenant's run as the doctor. So it is Doctor Who David Tenant and Rose and David Tenet's doctor and Martha. Those are the two seasons we're talking about. We are not talking about the Christmas special that says at the end of season three, Voy to the Dam, Kylie Minogue, get excited. That will top the beginning of next time. But, you know, if you've watched it, added bonus, but we're not talking about it today. everything up through the end of season three. And may a few hints and nods towards the future leak in mayhap, but nothing major.

We're being careful. We're being cautious. We want to protect those of you who are watching for the first time. Like me. Like Mallory Ruben. Protect me. I would encourage if you're just dropping it on this and you're like, I didn't know they were doing a whole series. We already did one on the Christopher Eccleston season.

We did that back in March. So you might want to go back and listen to that one. That one included a bunch of like. Doctor Who history. It was really fun to hear Mal's, like, very first impressions of Doctor Who, and now she has lived through two doctors, two companions. Like, she knows so much more now. We're going to talk about all of it today. Going forward, this is the coverage plan.

End of June, we're doing season four. That's Donna Noble and the Doctor and the specials. So we're just wrapping up the rest of David Tenet's run. So it's season four, and then I think there were like three or four specials before his run was done. And then end of August, we're doing season five and six of Matt Smith's 11th Doctor. There might be some added material in there. I'll make sure to know exactly what we're doing at the end of August. Because there might be like a few extra episodes that we need to watch to get the full,

like probably Matt Smith's last episode might be a good thing to watch. And then at the end of October, we're rounding out everything with the best of Peter Capaldi's run and Jody Whitaker's run to prepare for the three 60th anniversary specials that are airing in November on both. BBC and for the first time ever on Disney Plus. So that's in November, the three specials themselves. Mallory, I know you've been like, you're watching for the first time. You're sort of protecting yourself from future knowledge. But have things about the upcoming specials sort of seeped in it all?

Have you been checking in on anything? So I have been trying to avoid, as I mentioned in the first pot, I did watch the beginning of the Jody run because I thought, oh, maybe this will be like a good time to jump in and then, you know, decided, all right, we all wait to take this. all in in a more organized fashion one day in the future. And now here I am doing that with you. When we began our House of Who podcast journey, I then felt very anxious suddenly about spoilers and I didn't want to like learn anything from the future. And yet when the trailer dropped for the specials the other day,

I guess multiple weeks when people hear this a couple weeks ago, where are we in time? I couldn't help it. I had to watch it. I just couldn't help it. I didn't then go back and watch it time and time and time again and look for clues, but I had to just take it in because I have fallen so fully into the world in general, but the tenant experience at particular and then like seeing Donna,

and I'm like, I know Donna because I've seen the Runaway Bride, Christmas special now. So it was really fun to get just even a quick little glimpse of what awaits in the future. I am very, very excited. Have you run across any of Chichikatoa who's playing The Doctor After? David Tennant's return, have you run across any of his social posts of the various fits we could be expecting in this new series? Yeah, I've been closely tracking the Instagram activity with great enthusiasm.

I mean, it's remarkable. Yeah. And Arjuna, our producer Arjuna and I were talking about this the other day because, like, you know, we've talked plenty about the low-budget experience that is Doctor Who. and now they've got an infusion of Disney Plus money because of this like copro deal between the BBC and Disney Plus. And so what was once a feature of Doctor Who, which is like the doctor has one outfit and he just wears that?

Like he picks a brown striped suit and some converse and that's what he wears, right? It doesn't matter where in time he's traveling. That's what he wears. That was like kind of a budgetary thing. In this new one, the doctor dresses up. No matter where he's going in time and space, There's like period costumes, and it makes me so happy. I'm so thrilled.

I also want to shout out my enthusiasm for the news that Jinks Monson, who's the winner of the fifth season of Rupal's drag race, is joining Doctor Who the new season, and that's just incredible. I am very excited. As a Monsoon fan, I am very, very excited for that. So we're not going to be spoiling anything from that, but like everything I've seen has just made me more and more and more and more. hyped for it. So my hype meter for Dr. Who is at an all-time high. Spoiler for a future hype meter pod

for a future season. Absolutely. The fall hype meter is going to be out of control. Okay, so we're going to do things a little differently this time because we sort of covered a lot of the history stuff that I wanted to talk about in episode one. So this week we're going to do some broader topics. And then we picked four episodes that we most especially love from these two seasons to talk about it at like a little bit more depth and then we're going to do our usual superlatives. What I loved about that experience is I, what I anticipated was I would pick two and Mal would pick two and they would be different. But we actually, I should have known, loved the same ones. So we agreed on the four episodes. We'll talk about those in a second.

But first we're going to take like a broader view of who. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems

may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiara.com. All right, we're going to start with a section I'm calling The Good Stuff, and I'll hate you with the Doctor Who quote, which is a straight line. Maybe the shortest distance between two points, but is by no means the most interesting. I want to start, Mal, by returning to this question we asked in the first episode, which is about how the mechanics or the thematics of Doctor Who fit into our larger understanding of fantasy and the mythology stories that we already loved. And particularly this question we raised,

last time about the nature of who being a story where this fantastical world of space and time travel is hiding in plain sight inside of a police box. Like you've got mannequins or automated Santas or whatever that come to life. It's like the ordinary becomes extraordinary time and time again on this show. And we talked about a lot of different British stories that tell that. but we were wondering why we hadn't seen more American stories that have that sort of just under the everyday life, there's something fantastical waiting for you. Any thoughts or feelings of yours before we get into some listener emails we got on the subject?

So I had one thing occurred to me after we recorded. It was interesting to immediately see the wave of Percy Jackson tweets from people, which we've mentioned on other pause, but we can say here as well, we're both intending to read heading into the arrival of the television show and we're very much looking forward to. And I know a lot of people who really love those books and swear by them, whose taste I consider impeccable and who's reading recommendations, I adhere to strictly, including none other than Zach Graham himself, a friend of House of Recommend. So I'm really looking forward to reading that. It was funny to like some of the things that I was, I found myself like

thinking about as potential examples after the pod. then immediately still connected to something British. Like, for example, I was thinking about being human, a television show that I loved. And that's obviously set in Boston and this idea that ghosts and werewolves and vampires are just walking around and tending specifically to exist as regular people and then constantly pulled back into the supernatural. And it's like, well, that was a British BBC show that they adapted into an American version. So that was kind of a funny experience. How about you? By the way, I love the BBC.

Being Human, starring Russell Tovey, who is in the Christmas special that comes at the end of this season that we watch. So you'll get to see him soon. Yeah, I was thinking about the magicians. But again, the magicians, both the book series and the TV show adapted from it, that is like just a clear Harry Potter lift. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's American, but it's not at the same time, right? we got a and yeah the Percy Jackson response was loud and proud and so we are very excited to dive into the Rick Rjard and world ourselves maybe this summer but we got any email from Shane explain wow I forgot that that was fantastic the cue on this all right so she wrote my email concerns why so much British genre fiction details world slash portals that both that incorporate the seemingly banal a blue

phone booth, platform 9 and 3 quarters, etc. Leading on my lifelong experience as a Brit, I think it's partly to do with my country's size and its character, a reductive and imperfect metric. The country's landmass is so small that it's tough to conceive of things like huge magical forests or vast canyons. We don't really grow up with mysterious unseen spaces. And maybe most importantly, the English psyche doesn't often align with wonderment. Unlike the U.S., something like space travel isn't part of our national story. So you have to align the fantastical with the prosaic to get people to give you a chance. Once you've got them hooked, then you can be more playful and creative. Sadly, we don't do genre fiction over here anymore, say for Who.

The brief boomlet of those shows post-2005 Who have all been canceled. And without this new Disney deal, Dr. Hu probably would have followed them. I don't know if I agree with that. I think Dr. Who is eternal. But I thought that was interesting. Again, we don't want to – speaking to the national psyche is always a dangerous thing to try to do. but I think it's interesting to think about what do American myths look like, you know, who are our gods and goddesses.

I always like to say that, like, the comic book heroes are our, like, sort of pantheon of gods. But I don't know. I found that fascinating. Of course, so many of those were originally scripted by immigrants who came to. Exactly. And someone wrote in, yeah, someone wrote in, I didn't include this email, but someone And some of our best American mythologies are like Native American mythologies, like trickster sort of stories, stuff like that. But again, that is like what then became a minority in the country versus, you know, the like massive white American dream sort of concept doesn't really align with that.

I don't know. And like the idea, the British idea of like fairies at the bottom of the garden and like all this is like just. tucked out of sight, down the rabbit hole. I find it so interesting. Carol wrote in and said... I mentioned the magicians, which I already mentioned, and then mentioned Buffy, which I don't know if I 100% agree with that, but Carol says Buffy, a couple people suggested Buffy.

Carol says, we don't even have a barbecue fork or Snyder's passing out the supernatural as a gas leak or PCP or taking until I just want to be a big snake for the high school. to finally wake up to the supernatural. American mythology is mostly Western-based, violent, and directly confrontational. So that's why there are fewer examples, but in general, vampire's hide and plain sight. I was like, oh, I like that. So that's, I mean, I think this is an interesting, ongoing discussion.

I would be very curious to hear from more British listeners as well as American listeners about that difference between American fantasy and mythology and British, or more broadly global mythology, etc. I'm really excited to ask you this next question, Mallory, because now you have two examples to compare and contrast. Marley Rubin, what do you think makes a good doctor? Now that you have Eccleston and Tenets different takes to compare, what do you think? I guess I'll just take a moment to say at the top how deeply, deeply, deeply in love I am with the Ten experience.

Hell yeah. And really what a wonderful time I had watching these first two 10 seasons. You know, when we did our first pod, I was like, I made a tase because you asked who I thought would, who I thought would be my doctor. And I was leaning toward tenant. But certainly considered Matt Smith a possibility. And I'm still looking forward to watching Matt Smith as a doctor, to be clear. Can't wait. But I'm also having that experience that happens when you love something when like you fall into a story or you grow attached to a character.

And you're like, how can I ever be expected to say goodbye to this person? What an unfair thing to ask? And I love that feeling. Like it's just one of the best things that you can experience as a watcher or a reader is to find yourself forging such a deep connection and bond with a world and the people who inhabit it that you don't want to leave it. And before you've even left it for the first time, you can't wait to go back and visit again for a while in the future. And tenant, as the 10th doctor, we'll kind of go through all of the different elements that he is bringing to the table,

but captures something that feels, even though this is all so new to me still, quintessential and archetypal and elemental and like eternal to the experience of Dr. Who. And I think like the multitudes, the parts of like the emotional depth of the character, the sadness, the loneliness, that longing, that are absolutely heart-wrenching

and make the moments of connection that you get to witness him form, like feel somehow more magical and monumental than any of the actual sci-fi or fantastical journey that you're getting to join them for. But like the rate... The detachment that then can shift to deep attachment, the humor, the oddity, the charisma, the quirkiness. It's just this perfect blend and brew.

It's like if you dropped all the ingredients that you needed for the doctor into the tARDist and shook it up, right? A little doctor blender. This is what you would spit out. It's just amazing. I'm having the time of my life. It's so funny because, like, when you think about the doctor and his, like, blend of, like, goofiness, like childlike enthusiasm for the new things that he discovers in time and space. And then that like scary severity that also that he's also capable of.

Like I would say that both Eccleston and Tenant have that. I would say every doctor who every actor who's ever played the doctor has that. But it's just such a different taste. And again, I really love Eccleston, but like Tenon is my doctor. And I feel like nobody ever quite. plays all the notes of the instrument, the way that Tenet managed to in his three seasons. This idea of the doctor as a lover,

as a, as a, like, romantic or sexual object. Is something that, like, it was, like, kind of that, like, the whole thing that Russell T. Davies did when he rebooted the franchise is he cast younger actors as the doctor. And so Eggleston is younger and, like, cooler looking than the doctors have been before. But put a tenant in the TARDIS is, like, a whole different level because, I mean, it makes sense to me. Russell Tadvy's first worked with David Tennant on this Casanova series that they did, many series, which I've seen, which is phenomenal, by the way, if you want to spend more time with Ten. But when we first meet him at the beginning of season two in New Earth, right, this idea of the doctor as like Foxy, as hot as like already smooching Rose, it's like right from the jump that's happening there.

And we've got Rose. We've got Martha who's like desperately in love with him. We've got Sarah Jane who is like, you know, the ex-girlfriend essentially. We've got Cassandra in that episode. We've got, you know, Joan and Renette and, like, all these, like, women throughout who are, like, in love with, in lust with this doctor in a way that, like, hasn't really been a core element of the show in the past. Does all of that work for you? How do you feel about it? Yeah, in a big way.

The chemistry that he has with everyone and everything is, kind of astonishing. It's electric. I love it. I, you know, that, like, sexiness. And there's, again, an element of it that's, like, very emotional and intense in terms of the longing and, like, when these characters who form this desire in one direction feel that it's reciprocated or not, and then when it, the times when it is, how tragically that tends to go. And this, again, like ever-present sense of how alone this character is who can meet anybody and go anywhere, but like who does he have to share it with and when he finds someone for how long? It's almost unbearably sad if you don't have these pops of sex that are just oozing out of every scene.

And I love like the, I mean, I love this. I think also like I'm always a sucker for like a cheat in this department. I loved that we got to see the doctor kiss both Rose and Martha, but not really for either, right? Because with Rose, it's Cassandra. We get them when he's like, well, I can talk a new, new doctor. And Cassandra's Rose says, hmm, all right, you just. And then kisses him and he says, yep, still got it.

Like, that's just iconic. Yep, still got it. Yep, still got it. Kind of like musses his hair. And then with Martha, you know, the forgive me, you can save a thousand lives. It means nothing, honestly, nothing, this like burst of chemistry and that electric charge between two people that he isn't processing or recognizing at all and has no sense that the other person is feeling it because it's technical and it's about the mission, like to get all of those

different things in the different moment. And then obviously you have, you know, lots of very charged exchanges with. Renette and Joan and others that we'll talk about throughout the rest of the pod. But I just love this part of it. There's a joy to it, too. Like, well, you know, one of our favorite episodes that we talked about in season one is the doctor dances. It's an incredible Christopher Eccleson episode.

But there's that whole question of like, is he a dancer? Is this doctor a dancer? Right. And so, like, whereas David Tennant is like so clearly a dancing doctor, right? And we got this great email from Harrison. Explain? I wrote in about an interview, Russell T. Davies actually gave the watch about the show It's a Sin that you and I loved, right? I love.

And in that interview, Davies said, in, he talks about a scene where the viewers trained for it to end in either sex or violence, but instead it ends in dance. That response really helped me to understand his mindset with writing for the doctor. There are so many episodes that subvert the violent or sexual expectation instead find a third way of beauty. Versaul Harrison, that was a beautiful way to put that. But secondly, yeah, I just, I love that. I feel like there will be, we talked about the moments of severity and monstrosity and all this sort of stuff that comes to the doctor, which we'll talk about in a second. But like, his capacity for compassion, empathy, you know, Cassandra's a, you know, the old bitchy

trampoline from season one who comes back and is like. Could not have been more delighted to see Cassandra again. And he's a really, a really fun, like, way. to get into the 10 and Rose dynamic and stuff like that. But that episode ends with this like beautiful, compassionate, you know, ending for her where, you know, she's in this other body and she gets to go back to the time the last time she felt beautiful. And it turns out she was the one who called herself beautiful and like all the stuff like that and gets to hold herself as she died. Like, you know, these are the beauties of the timie whyminess of Dr. Hu. And it's just like those moments of compassion for, um, the.

villains in the show and those moments of joy in the Tardis and just like I I told you this and I I've said it before but I love to describe Rosen 10 as like just a basket full of puppies made human like that's how they feel just them like relishing in this adventure that they get to share together you know I love that so much I I don't know if we'll at any point talk about a gridlock car full of of cats but at least we got the basket full of of puppies. On the dancing front, the, there's a, one of the episodes that we're going to, spoiler, one of the episodes we're going to talk about a little bit more and a little bit more depth later, is, is the girl in the fireplace, which I adored. And there's a beautiful moment where Renette says to

him, Dr. Who? It's more than just a secret, isn't it? And he says, what did you see? And she says that there comes a time, time lord, when every lonely little boy must learn how to dance. And thinking about, we were just talking a lot actually on our Guardians volume three pod, checking out if you haven't, about dracks and this idea throughout the Guardians franchise of like there are two kinds of people in the world, those who dance and those who don't, and which kind of person are you? And then can that change for you and what does it mean if you find yourself with people at some point in your life who bring out that new desire? And like, when I think of dancing, I think of like a certain confidence and just like a freeness, but like also just a real supreme intimacy, right?

Like there's a closeness there in some ways to the point in Harrison's email about like, well, do you get sex or do you get violence or do you get dancing? There's like a subtlety to the kind of closeness that you have when you're dancing with somebody that is distinct in that respect. And so I think that's just a lovely observation. We talked about that like severity of the doctor. The doctor is like a monster, you know, the oncoming storm, the threat sort of thing. And I think one of the best examples we have of that is in the Runaway Bride, the Christmas special that comes between season two and season three. To think about the doctors as they go through revolutions, to remember that nine, Christopher Eccleson's doctor, is fresh off the time war, fresh off losing Gallifray, fresh off all of that. So there is like a profound sorrow and rage and loneliness, all of that being the last of the time lawyers, which we'll talk about, of course, later.

Like all of that inside of him. And then 10 gets to be a little softer and lighter because he's spent time with Rose and he's like moved past that. And you will go through these iterations. But the 10 that we meet in Runaway Bride is the 10 that lost Rose, right? So losing Rose, losing one person can feel as big as losing all of Galifrey. You know what I mean if it's the right person. And so the loss of Rose and the way that that puts him in a place where at the end of the runaway bride, as he's facing off against the Rackness Queen, incredible special effect moment for

Dr. Hu. And he's just sort of like burning everything to ever. Ash, because it's righteous. She's a villain, but like, and then Donna stops it, right? Right. And that's the key, right? This is, like, long before we started this, you and I did that lone wolf and cub tropes course thing, and I played this clip of Donna talking about how he needs to be, someone

needs to stop him. And I was just wondering what you think of, like, this isn't the last time we'll see this from the doctor. He does this sometimes where he just goes into, like, full self-righteous. defender, but takes it too far territory? How did that sit with you? How do you feel like having that complicated, like sitting side by side with the dancing doctor aspect?

Again, I just, I love it. It's just so much more interesting when a character has that push, pull, inside. And that sequence in Runaway Bride, like, preceding. the conversation with Donna, I was really struck by how uncompromising he seemed when he says and also the way that he was looking to blame his foe, right? I warned you.

You did this. And that's something else we always like to talk about too, is like, well, where is the choice really? And like when is it shared? And I thought that there were a number of moments across these two seasons where you had to confront the fact that the doctor is not just like a purely good and heroic person, though that doesn't diminish the parts of him that are. And in fact, I think heightens them in some ways because again, like the circumstance, who is he trying to help? Who is he fighting for? Why? Like shows you something about what he's thinking and feeling at the time that allows him to behave that way. But then like even that can be weaponized inside of the story. Like I'm really looking forward later to talking about the master. And I loved, I mean, basically the entire back half of season three is perfect across multiple arcs. But like that final three episode run before the master's revealed as the master and it's the professor still and then we build into the master.

And like the conversation about their names and that whine about the doctor and the idea of being a person who helps and heals, which is like a good and admirable thing being turned around on him as like what a sanctimonious thing. to brand yourself that way and parade yourself around the galaxy saying that you're the one who can help and heal other people. And then you think as a viewer when you hear a line like that of the number of times that he says, I can help.

And it's like, again, that's good. But he's almost wearing that need to help as like that's his life raft, right? Keeping him afloat and keeping him out of this sea of darkness. Another stretch of episodes that we're going to talk about, human nature and the family of blood, spoiler, favorites as well,

I was like shaken to my core by his decision to eternally damn. Oh my God. His foes in that episode. The ending of that episode is so staggering. We wanted to live forever so the doctor made sure that we did. The contempt on his face as he is putting each of them in their own personal prison in hell. That is fucking grim. The fact that, like, the doctor hides himself in this human guys, not because he's scared of them, but that it was an act of kindness is the way that they put it.

That gave me a chill that one. He was being kind. He's being kind. Oh, man. The other side of that, of course, is like the doctor as the hero, the fighter, the defender. Yes. And often there's a very famous Matt Smith, Doctor Who speech or moment where he says, it is defended, talking about. Earth. It's like a very, very famous Doctor Who moment. And I think about that all the time,

Doctor Who, the Doctor, Defender of Earth. Defender of, you know, the universe, but Defender of Earth, specifically, I love that when we meet him in Christmas Invasion, and a really clever thing they do in Christmas Invasion, the Christmas special that comes immediately after the change is that we don't see him for most of the episode. He's like comatose. We're spending time with Rose, with Jackie, with Mickey characters we know. And then, he possibly at the end, like one of the best introductions of any character ever, I think.

Joe, he just needed some tea. This is all the moments is the most unmistakably, this is a British story moment. More than anything else. Yeah, the Doctor Who and his Jim Jams, you know, defending Earth with a massive sword. And one of those is, he loses, you know, Luke Skywalker-esque, he loses a hand.

Yeah. He grows a new one because he's still mid-regeneration. And he goes, this new hand is a fact. cotton hands. I love the way. You know, and he's so, and then he gives that villain mercy, and then that villain, you know, tries to once again attack him and then he's like. Squanders that mercy. Yeah.

No second chances, right? And that, and that's the kind of Dr. I am. And his face, like, he's been so bubbly and effervescent this whole time. And then his face drops and you get that, that doctor, like, monster mask that building toward the moment where he says, don't you think she looks tired? That's what we're going to talk about next. But I do want to, I think about the line all the time. I want to finish up this Doctor Who fighter defender thing

because we got this email from Tristan. Who says, why is? Steve, when you make edits on this pod, are you going to shout to yourself, exterminate, or are you going to go with delete? Delete. Steve. Oh, okay.

Steve, the impression is to start. strikes again. Okay. So Tristan wrote, why does the doctor care so much about Earth? Why does he spend all his time here? Why does he have human form? And why does he care so much about humans? Is this another quote, so the show can exist answer? I'd love to see some sort of compelling in universe explanation for why he's drawn to protecting Earth and humankind. And I would argue to Tristan that there are so many moments where the doctor will sit and reflect on what he loves about humanity. One example that I plucked from season three, Utopia. You know, they're talking about the end of the universe, right? And the doctor says, don't you see that? The ripe old smell of humans. You've survived. Oh, you might have spent a million years evolving into clouds of gas and another million as downloads, but you always revert to the same basic shape, the fundamental humans.

End of the universe, and here you are. Indomitable, that's the word, indomitable. Like, he loves humans. He loves humanity. And then he will also rail about how. how stupid or evil or petty humanity is, but there is just this fundamental soft spot he has for humanity. And I always find those moments very interesting.

What do you think, Mel? I think to that, like, there are moments where a whole rail against point that you just made. Like, that feels like the necessary equivalent of what we just said about him and how there is that darkness within two, right? That's the counterweight and the balance to all of the joy and all of the effusive, buoyant enthusiasm for everything around him. like if he just thought, these humans, they're just flawless and great and I love to watch everything they do. It wouldn't be as interesting. But you have the fact that he can say to Harriet Jones,

like, I gave them the wrong warning. I should have told them to run as fast as they can, run and hide because the monsters are coming, the human race. And then you play that against these moments of kind of like, where he's almost remarking on how I think humans can keep surprising him. I really like the early moment with Martha and Ten in Smith and Jones where she's asking all these questions, do you have a partner? He says, humans, we're stuck on the moon running out of air with the Judoon and blood-sucking criminal. And you're asking personal questions. Come on. And it's like, yeah, isn't that what people would do in that moment, right? Like, just be driven by your curiosity, but also your kind of like insatiable need to know and to parse and to prod. This just has like a very, to me, the closest

comp I could think of is just, is Thor and the way that Thor is this god of Asgard. It could be anywhere in the Nine Realms, right, and doing any godly thing, but he can never separate from Midgard for long, right? Like, and why? And it's all of those different things. There's that feeling of like,

to your defender point that they need him, right? But also, like, there's something aspirational about living the kind of life, like the finite and thus, like, purposeful life that feels unattainable to someone like Thor or the doctor. And then, you know, just like that real tragic element then of forming attachments to mortal beings when you're not. Like reading this email, it made me think of that, you know, I can never go long without

mentioning Thor of the Dark World underrated cinematic classic. It just makes me think of Loki saying to Thor like say goodbye, you know, and how like devastating that is for a character like Thor or the doctor to have to confront. I think this will come up many times today. Yes. I love immortal characters for that push and pull, whether they be a Highlander or a vampire, whatever it is, that like, you know, just speaking of Highlander, the queen who wants to live forever sort of thing is like the cost of that, right?

The endless possibility of that, but the cost of that as well. And then last one, at least, of course, you already mentioned this, but like the doctor as a bastard, I just have to like spend a moment on this end of the Christmas invasion moment when he has decided, as you just alluded to, that, like, you know, what Harriet Jones, Prime Minister has done here makes her unfit for office. This is someone who was, like, a close ally in season one, right? And has risen to the rank of Prime Minister. And he says that he can destroy her with just, you know, a few words, six words.

Don't you think she looks tired? And I think about that all the time, something he whispers to. to her assistant. Don't you think she looks tired? The way that he says it, the gendered nature of it, like, it is such a, I thought about that line all throughout the 2016 election, by the way, don't you think she looks tired? Just like plagues me that moment of Doctor Who I think about it all the time. And her like fear, fluster, paranoia. What did he say? What did he say? You know what I mean? It's just like feeding right into it. It's just chilling, icy, chilling, horrible. I love that too because it's like another moment that shows you how he does understand human nature in a deep, deep and revealing way.

The fact that we didn't get like, I don't know, 15 more episodes with Harriet Jones's prime minister where they're allies and working closely, it was also quick, right, that it fell apart really hit me with like, that was just a wallop because it's like the way that that reinforces for the doctor has really rigid. and sometimes this can be good because it's like a guardrail. It's what keeps him true and steady. But sometimes it can be a limiting thing, like his rigid view of allyship and morality, right? And if anybody veers off what he thinks is the proper justifiable course,

then he's like an arbiter of that on a scale that I think often for a lot of other characters in fiction, we would say, like if you thought you got to make decisions like that about other people, you would be the villain. But this is our hero. And so again, I just think that's like an amazing balance that they've been able to pull off. Like the display that he dismantles her with a whisper and a little backward glance. And this is why the doctor needs a companion and like the right kind of companion.

and the way in which that companion holds the center firm for the doctor. So we're going to talk about Rose. We're going to talk about Martha. We're going to talk about a few other things. I found this in my own notes after our last episode, and I wrote it as a note to myself, and I don't fully know what inspired it, but I thought it sounded smart anyway, so I thought I'd say it, which I wrote to myself, the difference between you're a wizard. and you're a god, which is like Percy Jackson,

and you're an exceptional girl and worthy of an adventure. This idea, you know, which is like, there are a few male companions that we will, you know, Captain Jack Hardness would count as one. Like we'll talk about some other in the future, but mostly they're young women, and there's, you know, like sex appeal reasons for that for sure. But it's still an interesting aspect of Dr. Rue of like, you know, imagine.

We get to imagine. Imagine you're working in a shop or you're studying to become a doctor or whatever it is. And, you know, a dashing time lord crash lands in your life and is like, you, I want you in the TARDIS with me, we're going to have an adventure. I mean, unbelievable. Delightful. Unbelievable. And I love like it's, again, both the joy and the despair of that because to the wizard or God point, like you don't need to be that to have the prospect of this adventure. Anybody can, anybody, it's possible that anybody could experience this at some point.

What a wonderful thing, right? But it also means it's not your life forever. And how devastating is that? And like I'm eager to talk about Sarah Jane for a few minutes in the context of this because that forced us, but also the characters, to really grapple with that in a way that I love. That wasn't my favorite episode, but that aspect of it was, I thought, crucial. It's a bad episode with a great thread through it. Didn't even want some French fries, though.

All right, so we're going to talk about, you know, we already met Rose, but the Rose and Nine Dynamic and the Rose and Ten Dynamic are very different. I actually want to start with this clip of the Dr. and Donna talking about Rose. Steve Lee, play this, please. I don't want you here anyway. Where is this wedding? St. Mary's Haven Road, Chiswick, London, England, Earth, the solar system. I knew it. acting all innocent

I'm not the first am I how many women have you abducted that's my friend where is she popped out for a spacewalk she's gone gone where

I lost her the thing about Rose and again like no major spoilers but the like yes companions come and go that happens there's something about Rose and I think it's just because she was the first

of this new era where she will cast a shadow You know, you already saw in season three, Martha is forever feeling like she's living in the shadow of Rose. Rose will cast a shadow through the rest of the David Tennant run. This is just, you know, a massive, massive character, a massive, massive loss. What do you think about the Rosen 10 combo, Mallory? It's almost like, okay, you know how you have those experiences sometimes where you watch something or you read something for the first time, right? You've heard other people talk about it for a long time. So you're pretty confident you're going to like it

and that you're going to develop some sort of attachment to it. And then you finally consume it and you're like, well, this has always been a part of my life. Right? Yeah. And like that's what they feel like to me. Right? And I think actually, I think about this sometimes more,

but this is obviously very specific to who and these pods. But these two seasons in particular and the 10 Rose Bond most of all, it really like, it kind of like boosted. this feeling inside of me that I think about sometimes where like, I'm sure you're familiar with this sensation too. You'll have these moments on the pod or I'll have these moments on the pod sometimes where I'm like, if I say this thing out loud and tell the world that I've never read this thing or seen this thing, well, I forever shred every ounce of credibility that I've worked

to build, right? But this was like such a forceful reminder to me that like one of the really great things about stories and like about being a nerd or being a reader is just like it's never too late to fall in love with something for the first time, you know? And like to get to share it with other people who love it. It's just like really nice. So I care about them deeply. Watching season three, I mean, we'll talk later about the parting at the end of season two and how absolutely gut-wrenching that was to watch. So there's a part of me like watching season three because I really liked Martha. And you feel, of course, as you're intended to,

like heartbroken for her and crestfallen for her, that that rose shadow is so ever present. But then if I'm being honest with myself, there's like a part of me as fond as I was with Martha that was like nothing else would have felt appropriate to me. Like nothing else would have felt right. And that felt like true to the spirit of the story and the characters and the bond that they had built with each other,

that she would be that much of a fixture. in his mind and his heart still. I adored in human nature when he's showing Nurse Joan, the journal. And like the whole thing, it's like it made me think a little bit of end game. And like when we go on the time ice, it's like we're just in a scrapbook of our own memories, right? And like this is a visual version of that. All of the little, you know, we've got the gas masks. We've got all of this is so funny to see the little drawings of the aliens.

And you're like, man, that TARD just looks cool, right? But what does he stop to talk about, Rose? right? And just like the quality of his voice in that memory, a memory that he, as John Smith, can't completely understand, just the number of times that captured how she was in another world, right? The breach had closed, but was just like right there with him and with us all the time. I just, I don't know what the future holds, but I cannot wait for her to be back in some capacity and really hope it's, really hope it's soon. With much love and respect to everyone else.

Rose is not my favorite companion. I've said it here, there, and everywhere. You're Donna. Donna's my favorite. I loved meeting Donna. I got such a kick out of her. She's so funny. God bless Catherine Tate.

But there is something very special about Tenant Rose. Like it is very, very special. It's not just the, like, romantic aspect that that is certainly a key part of it. but it's just like their energies. And it's like so interesting because, you know, I love Billy Piper in season one. I love Rose with the Ninth Doctor. I think they're phenomenal. But it's so interesting to see it just like lock completely into place, the chemistry between David Tennon and Billy Piper.

What I think is really interesting is that, you know, we'll talk, we're going to talk about a couple episodes, two episodes from season two and two episodes from season three. And the two episodes, like, there's one in each of those that the companion is actually sort of barely in, right, is not the point of the episode. And I think that's kind of interesting. And it's like, it's, I don't think that's like a weakness. I think it's a way in which the whole infrastructure works. You know what I mean? Like you don't kick the legs out from under it when you remove one aspect or another. And that's when the show is at firing on all cylinders.

Let's talk about Dr. Martha Jones. But still study. Martha. Let's talk about Martha. Steve Lee, please. People are dying out there. They need him and I need him. Because you've got no idea what he's like.

I've only just met him. It wasn't even that long ago. But he is everything. He's just everything to me. And he doesn't even look at me, but I don't care. Because I love him to miss. And I hope to God he won't remember me saying this. Martha, girl, same.

Mother's like, I just met him and he's everything to me. He's everything to me. Okay, so I have a lot of, I feel very protective and defensive of Martha, but I have a lot of ish with the way that she's written this season because, and like with all these characters, we will see them again. Like, this is not the end of Martha Jones. But Martha is often very low on the ranks of companions. And I think it's because the show set her up to fail in a certain degree.

Because, like, I don't mind Rose casting a long shadow. I feel like she should. But the way in which Martha is so love sick, something she talks about when she decides to leave him. But, like, it bothers me because I'm just like, it just makes her look kind of lame when, in fact, there's, like, two key moments. In this two-parter, Human Nature Family of Blood, and in the... And in the finale, right, it is up to Martha to save everything, right? And she does it and she rules at it. But like this other aspect, I just get so every, like, love Lord look she casts at him.

I'm just like, I hate that for her. I hate it. And I want her to just be like, cool. I mean, yeah, everyone wants to fuck David Tennant and the Tartis. Sure. But like, like. Oh, yes. Be cool.

about it, Martha. What do you think? Yeah, I think that's completely, completely fair and on point. I really enjoyed Martha's character. I think that your note about how many things she is achieving and how central she is and how crucial she is often in these really dire circumstances is, yeah, like she's this extraordinary person.

When we meet her, she's trained to be a doctor. She's caring for people. She's saving people. when they're suddenly on the moon, she's like operating with a level of calm and rationality that is almost astonishing. Like she is just such a truly capable person, right? And so there's like I have like this little push pull with myself about it.

Joanna, stop me if you've heard me say this before I'm up to mine. Okay. So on the one hand, I actually, I do really agree with what you're saying. I think it's like that scale tips a little bit too far into the like, love Lorne, oh my God, like, will this other person ever see me this way? Right.

I guess the thing I also feel says I'm about to make a comp that doesn't totally hold, but hang with me for a second. Remember in season eight of Game of Thrones? Yeah. Which we had many issues with. Sure. But one thing that

I recall at the time, like a lot of people critiquing that I just did not agree with. And I think you feel similarly about it. I know you do was why would Breanne this like strong, fierce, independent woman cry about Jamie Lannister. And I'm just like, because that's life. You know, that you can feel all those things at the same time. Like you can love somebody deeply and it can crush you if they don't love you back. And you can also be like kick ass and capable and smart and independent. I think it's a matter of degree.

And what you're citing there definitely feels true to me. But I didn't mind that this was like a part of the character, I guess. Maybe it's just the extent and the ways that it manifests. And I do love, to your point,

I love that, like, what's really fun about Rose is she's like, you know, a working class shop girl, right? And then we like get to Martha and she's a medical student, you know, like that we're, you know, we're sort of going up

and down the social strata and it's not, that's not a decider of whether or not you're worthy. to be in the TARDIS, you know? Let's talk about Sarah Jane. Okay, so this is, so something that, so something that Davies does with this reboot

that I think is so interesting, right, is he reboots it in a way, starting with Eccleston in season one, where if you've never seen Doctor Who before, you can just dive in. And Dr. Who is actually, because of the constant regeneration and companion flipping and stuff like that,

it is, like, constantly friendly to you jumping in. But what Russell T. Davies does is he is, like, slowly turning up the heat on the connections to the longer history of Who. Like, we're going to talk about the Master. You know, we waited a bit when we met the Daleks in season one. Then we get the Cyberman, you know, in season two. These are the two most iconic, until Stephen Moffitt wrote The Weeping Angels, like the two most iconic Doctor Who monsters.

And then you got Sarah Jane, an original companion. And what I love about Sarah Jane is I've never seen any old who, any old who. That's one of those confessions where you're like, is Joanna qualified to run a Doctor Who rewatch? You've never seen any old who? Of course you are. Any old who, I mean, I've never seen any old who, but, you know, it doesn't make the impact of Sarah Jane showing up here any less wonderful. School reunion is a very silly stupid episode. starring one of my favorites,

Anzi Stewart had Giles himself from Buffy, or as you know him, Rupert. Rupert. He's Rupert Giles on Buffy and he's Rupert. Running my beloved hammers. But, yeah. O'S damn. All of that stuff is fine. Mickey's there.

There's like stupid bat creatures. Like, whatever. It's not a great episode. But Liz Sladen, Elizabeth Sladen is Sarah Jane Smith, is so poignant when she shows up and there's that, Well, first of all, when she shows up and he recognizes her, but doesn't, like, say who he is and the look on his face. And then the look on her face when she sees the police box, right? Then the tension, the bickering tension between Rose and Sarah Jane, and then eventually the coming together of this shared experience.

And then when I just think about, you know, there's a certain, like, David Tennant line deliveries that stick in my mind forever. and my Sarah Jane is just like in there forever. I just think it's an important, it's such an important to that conversation we're having about like what happens after your adventure. And it's so key to have it in this season, Rose's last full season as a companion, for her to see a glimpse of her future in the form of Sarah Jane.

So talk to me about Sarah Jane, talk to me about K-9. How are you feeling Mallory? Yeah, K-9, I loved it. a text when canine exploded. And I was like, unfortunately, I can never forgive 10. And then thankfully, mere moments later. K9 was back.

What a good boy, canine is. To your larger point there about like the history of who and the depth of it, Sarah Jane was one of the many times in these two seasons where I felt like, this is just right. Like I don't feel like I'm missing something. I'm not being shamed for not having that depth of history. but like it's it's all there for me everything i need to understand emotionally and intuitively is here and then it's like a little like invitation if i want to learn more in a way that i thought was

like very welcoming and and kind um meeting a character you know has history with like the long time viewers but you're like navigating in real time and like what resonates and what doesn't i loved so much about it that like it wasn't just that experience for us as viewers that the characters were having that experience too that Rose is having that experience in particular but also then that 10 is having to like confront the pain that he leaves in his wake I think those moments where he has to face the impact he has on people are really crucial and like again as is often the case you're balancing the really intense stuff with the humor some good zinger's like quite like Sarah Jane said you can tell you're getting older your assistants are getting younger I got

Great stuff. I waited for you and you didn't come back. Did I do something wrong? Because you never came back for me. How could anything compare to that, that being their adventure? Those are like some of the things that Sarah Jane says to him over the course of the episode. And he has to think about that, right? He has to think about what it would mean to do that to another person,

to have done that to people in the past. And part of the reason that he has to think about it is because Rose is right there, confronting what it means to be a companion who can't stay with the doctor forever. And like I love the evolution for her inside of the episode where it's sort of like brash and almost defensive, right? There's like a competitive spark at first. Like he's never mentioned you. And she hurls that as an insult and like a diminishment.

But then she has to face the fact. I'm like, wait, is he going to mention me to whoever comes next? And I loved so much when she said, I've been to the year five billion, right? But this, this is really seeing the future. You just leave us behind. Is that what you're going to do to me? And then he says, no, not to you. And there are like a lot of really sad lines and moments across these two seasons,

but I don't age. I regenerate. But humans decay, you wither and you die. Imagine watching that happen to someone that you, what, doctor? You can spend the rest of your life with me, but I can't spend the rest of of mine with you and I have to live on alone. I mean, that is like one of the saddest things. That's the curse of the time lords.

The time lords. Brutal. Yeah. Very sad. One of many times that the doctor will almost say that he loves Rose. But of course, like that builds to the fact that he does everything he can. He knows he has to say goodbye to Rose. Yeah.

Has to find a way. And like the Satan's pit tofer, again, like not my favorite. necessarily. Guess who loved those? Loved. You? Loved. Adam. I mean, I enjoyed them. I thought I liked that the devil was an idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. A line and speech was really good. But yeah, Adam had to some of Adam's favorites. But, you know, they talk about building a future together. You know what I mean? And it's like the first time that the doctor like kind of imagines that he might, like, he really believes that he could spend a life with Rose.

Right before it's ripped away. I love this show. Okay. And then we get a bunch of one-off companions, and this will, you know, go on and on and on and and Dr. Who, where, like, you know, either he is currently paired up with someone and he meets someone else, or he's in between companions and he meets someone who, like, sort of strikes his fancy. Close a loop on Sarah Jane.

Just to say, in case folks don't know, she got – this was, like, a heavy area of Doctor Who's spin-offs because it was so popular. So she gets her own spin-off. The Sarah Jane Adventures starts January 2007. Thank you, HBO Max, for your related content thumbnails that let me to discover this. It's like, wow. Yeah, and it's like for younger audiences. It's sort of like Dr. Ho Jr.

And it's really fun. Yeah, yeah. So the one-off companions, Sarah Jane, sure. Donna is a one-off companion and then until she's not, right? Renet, who will talk about, Joan, who will talk about, and Sally Sparrow, who will talk about, you know what I mean? And so, like, and those episodes, I don't think it's a coincidence that those episodes are some of our favorites, you know what I mean?

Because watching the doctor make these connections with these new people he's just found. And there's something that Doctor Who does, especially at the Davies version, I don't know that Moffitt and certainly Chris Chibnall who took over Moffett, I don't think they're as good as Davies was at this, which is to make you care almost immediately about whoever you meet, whether you're just going to spend an hour with them or not. Sally Sparrow or Renette, like these are, you know, spoiler, these are characters we will never see again.

But they are indelible Doctor Who characters that we care enormously about. I want to read this email from Madeline because Madeline's on my Donna Noble agenda. So here we go. Madeline loves, I love all the R.T. D-era companions, but Donna's my favorite because she's on equal footing with the doctor, and I believe that out of all the tense doctor's companions, she's the one who sees him the most clearly and completely. She meets him on his absolute worst in the runway bride when he has just lost Rose and is overcome

with grief when he goes all oncoming storm and drowns the Rackness and her children. Donna is the one who eventually gets him to stop before he goes too far and can't escape the rushing water under the Thames. As she tells him at the end of the episode, when she refuses to travel with him, she knows that he needs someone to stop him, and that person is her, or at least it will be. To Donna, the doctor is not a god. He's just a man who sometimes needs reminding of his goodness. Donna knocks his ego down a few pegs, and in doing so, strips away the bravado and

reveals the man underneath. Rather than diminishing the character of the doctor, this allows Donna to see the heart of what makes him special. It's not that he has a magic box, and it's not that he can travel in time. And it's the fact that, as Donald will remind him again and again in season four, he's special because he never stops trying to save people. Donna inspires him to be the best version of himself, and in doing so, helps him truly become worthy of the title of Doctor.

So it's just like a little preview of what's to come for Donna. But like Donna is just like from immediately, she's just yelling at him from the jump. And I love that. And it's such a refreshing contrast to the starry eyes of Rose and Martha, of Donna just being like, get me the fuck out of here. Why have you kidnapped me? Get me to the church.

What the fuck are you doing? No, I don't want to come with you. Are you kidding me? I love her. That's great. Anything else you want to say about Donna or the return of your beloved Captain Jack Harkness? Oh my God. I mean, we could just do a whole podcast on the joy I felt in my heart when Captain Jack returned.

I gasped. Adam and I both gasped and turned to each other and had the biggest smiles on her faces. Oh. He's a favorite. around here. I mean, it's just fantastic to be with Captain Jack. That's how I feel about it.

I was not prepared for the face of bow reveal. It's like, wow. Okay. Interesting stuff. I think the, I'll return to, I think, Jack in our superlatives, almost certainly. But I think the only thing I would,

you covered it beautifully on the Donna front, I really was struck by her use of the word stranger. Like that place was flooded and burning and they were dying and you stood there like, I don't know, a stranger. Because I think like that idea of, you know, needing someone to stop you, like, well, what does that require? Somebody who knows you and sees you and understands you, like what you're capable of, but also like maybe what your worst impulses could be.

And I think that one of the things that feels so like, magical and elemental about the doctors of characters, the way that he can become so familiar so quickly to so many people. And so that, that, the, the inverse of that, this idea of somebody who was removed as like, again, a reminder of how things could go wrong, I thought was just really cool. And that's like a very comic and just fucking weird in a fun way episode. And so like to have that really heavy note there was great.

And then what does he do? He bounces, right? she invites him in for Christmas in her and he's like, I don't do that. I don't do that. That's not something I do. He might dance, but he doesn't do Christmas dinner. At least not with anyone other than Jackie Tyler.

All right. Good old Jackie. Good old Jack. I hope I love Jackie. You were texting me about love and monsters, like, genuinely one of the weirdest episodes of Doctor Who. And I was like, yeah, you know, Rose and Tenor barely in this episode. You're like, well, at least, Jack is here, absolute legend, trying to fuck her way through another episode.

Jackie Tyler, I love her. It's amazing stuff. I love her. Amazing stuff. And I love, like, the alternate version of her in the other universe. Great, great stuff. All right. We've been talking a lot about, like, mortality, the, the importance of goodbye and Dr.

Who, the finite nature of, like, you know, the human companion and the eternal time lord. And there's like a way in which Dr. Who is the show is the eternal time lord. And these actors who come and go are the like finite mortal companions. You have to say goodbye to Eccles. You have to say bye to Billy Piper. You have to say goodbye to David Tend and etc. So like so like now that you've seen a couple of these changeovers, a regeneration, a loss of a companion or two, etc., etc., etc. Does that change your perception of the show at all?

Does it train – it won't. I know your answer is no. But does it train you to be less attached? Do you think of this as more of a mantle than a character? How are you thinking about that fundamental nature of the show? Yeah, it's a great question. I guess maybe in part because I understood the premise of the show, even though I hadn't seen it and knew that this – all of the different performers

who had portrayed the doctor and even because my first – exposure was during the run with the 13th doctor. Like, I think maybe that's just been incorporated into my understanding of what the experience was going to be. If anything, it's kind of been the opposite. I think it's, like, been a bigger version of what you just described beautifully about those one-off companions, where it's like, I just marvel at the fact that despite us knowing that and, like, not really being able to bury that reality for very long or very

deeply, like you know you're going to have to say goodbye to these people, the companions, this version of the doctor, wherever they are on a given planet in a given moment in time, you just still become so deeply invested in that particular version of the thing. And that's like a hard, that's a hard thing to do, you know? I like in general, just fear change, loathe change, don't like change, right? Yeah. I like to spend, like, a lot of my time around familiar people and things who I love and bring me comfort. but then, like, one of the great things about being alive is, like, you do something new,

you meet somebody new, and you're like, this is great, too, right? I always think of, I've mentioned this on Paz before, but I always think of Cavalier and Clay as, like, a example of that on the novel front where I won't spoil that book, but you move through large swaths of time, right? And so you get, like, you saw fall so deeply into where you are and who you're with, and then you turn the page and you're just, it's, that's not where you are in any, any means. And there's this moment where you have like a few pages, or I felt this way reading it, of like genuine resentment, right? Like I'm like, how could you take me away from this thing?

If I had meant so much to me. If I had known that was my last chapter with that, you know, that, yeah. Yeah. Like I didn't get to say goodbye either, you know? Yeah. And then you just, you form that same attachment again and that's the real, like, joy of it is like reminding yourself. Just like the doctor has to, just like Rose and Martha and all of these characters have to. that you can build that again, you know?

So there's like a meta aspect to it that I actually like really appreciate. Like that said, I will be despondent when I have to say goodbye to David Tennant and I won't pretend otherwise. Get ready for some text messages. You'll be hearing from me. That's going to be a lot. But like, thankfully they gave him such an indulgently long farewell tour. Like all the specials that he gets before he goes, it's like kind of hilarious, but he deserves it.

Speaking of specials, you've seen two holiday specials now. Yeah. This is a very... Well, I mean, like... Yeah. To zoom back to the... To the... Actors come and go.

We don't... There's nothing like this. You know what I mean? Like, there's the James Bond franchise, I suppose. But, like, there's... We don't really have any TV shows that are like Doctor Who, where, like, people are swapped in and out so easily. Yet this show goes on. Unless I'm not thinking of something Hobbits and Drag is at Gmail.com.

Please do let me know. And, like, to your mantle or character question, I think, like, it's both, right? But it definitely does feel like a full character to me. And that's again why I like it. Because like if we think of like the MCU where a new character assumes the mantle of a given hero, it's like that part is cool, the passing of the mantle, the building of that bridge, but it's a different character, right? Like Sam Wilson is a different person than Steve Rogers, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The fact that all of these different versions of the doctor share like experiences and memories and that when David Tennant is there looking at Sarah Jane, even though he wasn't her doctor, like he carries. that with him. It's like, this is his whole life. So it really is like, yeah, it feels very specific and distinct to this, to this universe. Great stuff. Thanks for asking me to watch this.

I'm so happy you're watching it and you're enjoying it. It's like thrills me. I got so, you were texting me a little bit early on in your, in your watch of these chunks of episodes that like, or you sent me a little voice memo where Adam gave his, your beloved husband gave his review of tenant. And I was like, I was like genuinely anxious of like, Oh my God, because Adam is loving. He's having his own journey. You know, whatever. He likes him.

He likes him. He's just like absolutely certain that Matt Smith will be his doctor as he puts it. So he's like waiting for Matt Smith, which is fine. But he really, he did really like both of these seasons. And I was just like, what if they don't like it? What if this has been a horrible mistake? But you're living in and it's makes me really happy. As you know, in my household, it's often likely to go the other way.

Where if he says something, I'm just like, well, I've now never felt more strongly to the contrary. Nothing has ever been better. Frankly, how dare you? Yeah. All right, so let's talk about the holiday specials. Like, again, this is a very British, you know, I mean, I know we have the Guardians of Galaxy holiday specials. We have a few, but like this is a very British thing to do in the off season, essentially. Let's pop a little hour up for Christmas television.

How do you feel about them as do they feel like distinct things or do they feel like just another episode in a season like when you're watching it this way in a kind of binge fashion? I don't know if I've seen enough yet to say definitively because I've seen two. But they feel, I guess, like a hybrid where there's some new threat and new adventure and new thing that needs tending to and seeing to immediately. And in that sense, they don't feel like so distinct from any other episode. But they feel, I guess they'll often be like our first moment with a new doctor, right, unless they're inside of a run. But like because we're getting to meet new people, like that was where we got to spend time with Donna. And that was where we met 10 for the first time. So they feel distinct in that way where like we're just introduced to someone or something for for the first time.

Also, who doesn't love some jolly old England Christmas cheer, you know? Who doesn't love Santa pulling out a trumpet in the middle of the street to the Christmas tree swinging around? with lethal branches in your in your living room and you're flat. I mean, we're going to talk about the worst special effect, but that has to be up there, that spinning Christmas tree situation. There's a few other contenders. Threat your way. Yeah, for sure.

All right, and last one at least, before we get into our little, like, mini episode dives, The Master. Let's talk about The Master. Steve, will you play this clip, please? I guess you don't know me so well. I refuse. Regenerate. Just regenerate.

Please, please. Just regenerate. Come on. And spend. The rest of my life have imprisoned with you. You've got to. Come on. You can't end like this.

You and me, all the things we've done. Accents, remember the accents and the Daleks? We're the only two left. No one else. Rejutorite! All right. All right. So like, it's worth mentioning that on the season three cover art for,

I mean, some versions of the DVD box. It's not the doctor and Martha. It is the doctor and the master. And that's like a very, it's almost always the doctor and his companion. There is something very important about the doctor and the master. This is, we've only just begun on the master's journey through Doctor Who. And of course, this is a very old school character like Sarah Jane that they have brought in. You get that sense of history when we meet him.

Played by Derek Jacoby in Sir Derek Jacoby. in Utopia and then by John Sims in the final two episodes. And I love both of these actors so much. This is, you know, as who continues to go on, it will draw more and more, like, famous guest actors. But there's something really, like, really, really intentional about the way that they cast this character because this is just, like, a huge, huge, important figure.

It plays into that thing that you love to talk about Mallory and we talk about something like Loki or any sort of, like, multiversal thing, which is like, no, the master and the doctor are not the same person, but there's a way in which they are two sides, the same coin, and it's almost like two loki variants meeting each other, right? These are, you know, the last of the time lords. Like, these are the two remaining. They were children together. There before the grace of God goes the doctor, like all of this sort of stuff, this dark mirror of the master that I find so delicious. I find John Sims' performance.

like is so campy and over the top in a way that like amazing absolutely rules. And to put that side by side with what Derek Jacoby does, which, you know, is hinted at for us in human, like we're prepared by human nature and family blood for what the master has done here, which has put his time lordiness away in an object and just made himself human. And so to go from this like sort of professorial, you know, stately Derek Jacoby thing to the absolute horrifying menace of him by the end of the episode. And then you were prepared to be very scared of this character for the two remaining episodes of season three.

Talk to me about the master and how you felt about your introduction to him. Oh, I had a blast. It's just an absolute blast. This was, I will say this was the thing I was most afraid. to Google in prepping for the pod. I just, I don't know anything about the future, but it just seems very clear there will be things in the future. And I just didn't, in an effort to, like, learn about the past,

I didn't want to travel across time in my podcasting TARDIS and, um, and learn much. So I proceeded with caution, but just inside of this arc, um, that first episode, Utopia, the time with the professor, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the sounds of the drums, the glimpse of the watch. Just the first time we glimpse him and we see him in his little suit with his companion and he's a scientific genius who's operating with the weight of the world and the future of humanity on his shoulders and can't anybody help understand.

And it's like, okay, well, we are being primed for some reveal here. Like, I didn't know to expect of the master because I didn't know who that was. But it was clear we were building towards something seismic, right? that would alter something fundamentally and significantly. So that was just a really cool buildup and a very satisfying reveal when it happened. Great performances all around, as you said. And like, yeah, to that dark mirror point that you made, like, I just, I love that in a foil or a foe.

I love it in a companion. Like, any time you could front some aspect of where you came from, who you are, what you learned, what you do with it. Like, where the question of where a time lord's power can leave. them. And the way that you get that here in the sense that this is like a real match, right, for the doctor in a way that is rare and uncommon inside of the story, but also because of that, like a rare kind of portent and warning, another time lord who's obsessed with humanity to get back to that question from earlier of like, why earth and why humanity? Well, to get to see that

through the lens of another time lord's eyes and how quickly that could really warp and turn like noxious was also really interesting. And I just love the, the element of this of like wanting to save your enemy, right? Like needing to save your enemy because you think that you're saving something about yourself. And again, there's that element of like the doctor's loneliness that we've been tracking, like thinking you're the last and then realizing you're not the only one left. And this other, this last other person, this only other time lord as far as I know at the time, maybe that'll change too, is your enemy.

seeking to do you and the people you care for harm, and you're not only like your instinct, but your insistence is to protect him, to not let him die. And like then the doctor's despair when he, when he does, I'm to die. I'm using air quotes just again. I'm making an associate.

I have no idea. But that always, like, really pretty poignant. So this is just a very cool character. I'm looking forward to seeing if and how the master returns. I love what happens at the end of the finale here, the last of the time where it's not before this death scene, the reveal of like what Martha was doing, right? And the way in which, again, to a point that you like to raise about a villain fundamentally

misunderstanding something or not paying attention to the smaller things is their downfall. And so this idea that she's like, going around telling the story of the doctor, right? I told a story that's all no weapons, just words. I did just what the doctor said. I went across the continents all on my own. And everywhere I went, I found the people and I told them my story. That's such a better version of, you know, it's the most important thing in the world.

Story and who has the best story? So literally just thinking of that. Literally just thinking of it. Great stuff. But, you know, the way that the doctor's, is like, you thought I would send her to kill you? Like, that's not how, what I do. It's not what I do.

Right. At all. You don't get it. You never understood. And that's how we were able to blinds it. Because you only think of things this way. And that's just not how I operate. Right.

And like to flip to, even with these ties to, like, show how their power and ability or instincts can manifest differently, like the way that Saxon, just as a word, kind of looms. It's sprinkled throughout the season, which for me in my three seasons is now a pattern, right? We had that with Bad Wolf in the first season. We had it with Torchwood. In the second season, we have it with Saxon here. And I mean, obviously, Torchwood is still around. But, like, there's been a big focus like that in each of the season. Well, what are we building toward how? What will we learn? And so to take that idea of, like, that one word and then the archangel network and, like, this, like, shared, like, psychic consciousness and the power

of a word over people and to turn that into, like, a good and uplifting and a forceful thing that can, like, like, the doctor would want, heal and hell. And hell. and save rather than destroy the way that Saxon was intended to. That was cool too. Very cool. As if I would ask her to kill. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty, limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you, if you, If you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack.

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I'll hit you with an 11 quote. We're all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh? Let us start with the first episode. Steve, play me a clip. Are we in Scotland? How can you be ignorant of that? Oh, I'm dazed and confused.

I've been chasing this wee naked child over hill and over Dale. Isn't that right? Yeah, Timurus Beastie. Oh, guy. I've been out in a boot. No, don't do that. Put, ma'am. No, really don't.

All right, season two, episode two, tooth. And Claw, directed by Euros Lynn, written by Russell T. Davies ever heard of him? Marler, what do you want? Why did Tooth and Claw stick out to, do you think, as one that you loved? It's just a great episode of TV and a great episode of Doctor Who. I had a blast. We talked in our first pod about the historical episodes where they go into the past and either you meet historical figures or you tap into some sort of like myth or legend.

that then like we as people walking around all the time now, we're like, oh, yeah, this is like permeated our myth and our storytelling culture in some way. And like, then you zip forward into some space station in the future and it all makes sense together. But these episodes that take you back to the past where you spent time with real people and like this case, Queen Victoria,

just hanging out, getting werewolf scratches. They're so fun. And this one was really, really great. I kind of had like all of the different ingredients. Lots of guest stars who you're kind of like, oh my God. Okay, I'm sending a text to Joe 45 seconds in because I've spotted this episode's guest star. Okay, by the end I've sent Joanna 27 text messages. Like, it's just, it was really fun.

Particularly Thrones heavy extravaganza. Oh, my God. Do you want to run off? Piat Pri. Yeah. Roderick. Jory. A delight.

We love Jory. Double Casell. Yeah. I mean, And later we'll see Old Nan in a different episode. Obviously, we'll talk about Jojin and Pissaris shortly. But yeah, quite a number of Thrones folks popping up in these two seasons. In this run, the history episodes are Queen Victoria, Madame de Pompadour, who we will talk about in a second, of course.

And William Shakespeare. And I have to say, I don't love the William Shakespeare episode, the Shakespeare Codex episode. And I'm bummed that that's the Shakespeare. episode, to be honest with you. I hope that, like, I think Russell should take another crack edge at a Shakespeare episode, personally. I did like the number of times, and he's like, I'm going to use that line. Oh, yeah. A lot of Shakespeare lines dropped in there.

But yeah, this is a great history episode, and this is like a really fun, tight, zippy, hilarious. the running joke of like trying to get Queen Victoria to say we are not amused, the flirting that's going on between Ten and Rose. To that point that we were making earlier about how quickly you can care about a character, the way that they set up Sir Robert and Lady Isabel, even though they're like separate in their household for much of the episode, is just sort of like a true love story that you believe in and then are devastated by the ending of it.

And then that mixture of alien and, like, mythological lore. As you were saying, like, a lore that we are aware of, the werewolf, but make it alien, a nice little, like, blend of fantasy and sci-fi that I absolutely love. And the use of, in addition to Queen Victoria is a historical figure here, but the koi noor, like a real life, massive diamond that exists. is like has been shaved down. And I love that how inside the episode, David Tennis, the doctor's like,

this is a real thing that happened, like, for both the audience and Rose's benefit. That, you know, Queen Victoria, Albert, like, was constantly shaving down the Koenor. And, oh, of course, to put it in this thing that magnifies the intensity of the moon. That's why, of course. Any, any, or, like, little, like, brilliant things,

like, you know, Putting the, what is it, it's a mistletoe, right? Putting the oil of mistletoe into the wood. I was just going to mention this. Yeah. The doctor licking the walls. First of all, I was into it. It worked for me as I'm sure it did for Rose.

That was just like great stuff. Again, like the doctorist detective, especially in such a like Sherlockian kind of episode, was really fun. I love like the, because when we talk about myths and these stories that move across time and we confront in different renderings, this was something that we had in a, you know, a different way, but a lot of fun talking about in our magical blades and magical weapons episode, right? Like the different spins you get on something. I loved both with the historical nature of a Doctor Who episode and thinking, okay, what if these real, real life figures who you know from studying history and learning things about the world, like. were obsessed with werewolves, right? That's just a great thing. Like Victoria is saying Prince Albert himself was acquainted

with many rural superstitions. But then the way that you take something really broad, like werewolf storytelling, and make it hyper-local. I loved literally the use of the word local, the way that Victoria said, when Albert was told of your local wolf, he was transported.

Like, that's just great. It anchors you in a community, in a place with this group of people and how this wolf would transform their lives. I just loved the tip. And this becomes a recurring bit, and then Victoria calls him out on it in the episode. The doctor changing his accent. But it was great to get the full Scott for a minute there.

You promised to tell a nightmares. I can't do a Scottish accent as you just learned. But that was really wonderful. Yeah, wee timorous beastie. It's like one of my favorite lines. Also, we talked last time about the way in which Buffy Vampire Slayer was an inspiration for Davy's run of who. how Giles himself is in the very next episode. But there's a classic,

a classic Buffy montage of researching things in the library, and there's that great line for the doctor who says, you know, you want weapons. We're in a library. Books, best weapons in the world. This room's the greatest arsenal we could have. Throws a book at Rowe's arm yourself, you know. And so then we're like looking in old tombs and like gravings and stuff like that.

And that was like a staple thing that happened in Buffet the very thing. Empire Slayer, like one of the main sets is the library in the high school. And so, you know, again, to our point about the doctor, not being a guy with the biggest guns or whatever, but being someone who uses his brain and his heart and his ingenuity and all his sort of stuff. I love, I love it. Love it. Love a nerd who loves to read, figuring out how to take a guy who sat in the cage and said, I carved out his soul and sat in his heart. It's so good. It's so chilling. Good. It reminds. It reminded me a lot of Andrew Scott's Moriarty, you know, when he's like, I burned the heart out of you, you know what I mean? I was like, that's a very— That's a very Andrew Scott Moriarty line reading. Does—has this episode, Joe, this tooth-and-clock spirit's been on your mind the whole time that you've been watching The Crown?

Have you been thinking about the royal family? I mean, you and I love Princess Anne. So when she says, she killed me. Which says, mind you, Princess Anne, you know, and they're just like— And replies, I'll say no more. Slead me. Oh, my God. That were almost.

I mean, like, it's just a great, a great way to end of the episode. Incredible. Incredible. This is, again, we'll take this opportunity to mention another spin-off. Torchwood gets its own show starting. This episode came out in spring 2006, and Torchwood starts in October 2006, and Captain Jackner, Erkness is the main character of Torchwood. So, like, we're seeing seeds being planted in these seasons for the various spinoffs that Davies has in the works.

But I respect it. I love an expanded universe, as you know. I liked the Torchwood estate. Yeah. Yeah. And also just I loved the, because there's, like, this, like, this blessing and this thinking and this nighting and then this banishment, right? And, like, I loved that line when in the Torchwood origin scene when Victoria says, I don't know what you are, the two of you are where you're from. but I know that you can sort with stars and magic and think it fun.

And she's, like, damning them. And I'm like, it is fun. That sounds dope. Yeah. Like that, exactly. Right. Yes. And the misunderstanding of that.

And Torchwood, of course, plays a major role in the finale of this season. But, yeah, then it's its own thing. Love to see a Cyberman. And Torchwood, I would say, is like if Sarah Jane and VIII, Ventures was like Doctor Who Jr. Torchwood is like Doctor Who after dark. Like it's, it's, it's a bit more. You're speaking my language. Jack Harkness is the main character. Yeah, exactly. Is it good? Would you, would you recommend it? Yeah. I mean, it's not, it's not as good for sure, but it is good. And there is a mini series that they did called Children of Earth that is phenomenal. And actually Peter Capaldi's in that. And something, you know, something we should say is, um,

Not as the doctor as a different character. And it's fantastic. But Frima's showing up in the season two finale as a different character and then showing up as Martha Jones. That will just happen again and again in Doctor Who. They're just sort of like, oh, have you seen Peter Capaldi or Karen Gillen before? Don't worry. They're playing someone else now. Don't even worry about it.

It's fine. Maybe we'll explain it or maybe we won't. But don't worry about it. You know what? Before King Taman was King Tommel. How many was Martin Lannister? Sure was. I'm fine with it.

All right. Are you ready to move on to our next one? Please. I can't wait to hear all of your thoughts on this episode, which I adored and I know you absolutely love. Steve, play this clip, please. I've got to spread my wings and done it. French. Mark, they know how to party.

Oh, look at what the cat drugged in, the oncoming storm. You sound just like your mother. What have you been doing? Where have you been? Well. Among other things, I think I just invented the banana daughery. Season 2, episode 4, The Girl in the Fireplace, directed again by Euroslin, and this time written by Stephen Moffat. Stephen Moffat really emerging as the all-star of the one-off Doctor Who series, and you really understand why he became the showrunner when Davies left.

Another history episode, Madame de Pompadour, this idea of... Love and time. Woo. And Moffitt's genius, reminder that Moffitt wrote the Doctor Dances, Empty Child, two-parter last season. And so,

oh, you my mummy, gas mask, that Mallory already referenced. That's a Moffat villain. These clockwork dandies are Moffat villains, tremendous, non-verbal Moffat villains.

and then we'll get another iconic Maffa villain in another episode we're going to talk about. He's a genius with these like one-off menaces. Very inventive, very scary. The way they're little like, speaking yellow jackets, Sean and her little carving knife for hands,

you know, they're little like knife hands. And just they're something that about the relentless villain in Doctor Who, like the Daleks and the Cybermen are not creative or necessarily even that cunning, they just keep coming.

And that's sort of like what's phrasing. And that's sort of like what happens with these clockwork villains is they're like, you know, the monster under your bed. And like when you first meet it and he pops into her bedroom and he's like, the clock's broken. And what's that ticking noise? You know what I mean? And you get a little rustle under the bed when he looks. And there's like, and then there's feet. It's like, what the fuck?

Yeah, what do you want to say about, like, how is your opinion of Moffat shaping up as you, as you watch these episodes? Oh, I mean, I'm looking forward to every episode that I see that he has penned and I'm really excited for the, you know, I think we talked briefly last time about my enthusiasm for Sherlock and I'm excited to see more of what awaits. But like, you know, the writing, you've selected a few passages that you want to share. I think the writing in this episode is just, like, highly comic and, like, deeply profound all at once and encapsulates something that feels, like, quintessential about the energy and the sensibility and the brew of that across a good who episode. I thought that this was, like, a spooky episode, an inventive episode, that idea of, like, the creature under the bed and how it's, like, at the end, it becomes a source of strength, right, taking something that used to scare you and learning to wield it, wield it. wield it as your own weapon. Like, you're just a nightmare for my childhood. I thought that was, like, really cool.

It was a, again, like, it's an episode that strikes me as something where the balance in less capable hands could just go really, really wrong and kind of, like, curdle. You take the doctor and you put him in this relationship with Renette that I'm excited to talk more about that is kind of, like, overwhelming in how captivating it is. And you want us to get lost in that without us getting, like, mad that he's basically, like, chosen her over Rose. You know, when he rides his horse through the wall at the end and knows what the cost of that is going to be. That's, like, kind of a terrible thing. That was actually when Adam and I first started talking about 10, because he's like, I can't believe he did that to Rose.

And he was just, like, really mad at him. And I'm like, I was, too, but also I was so. swept up in this thing that was happening between the doctor and Renet because, like, I want to see him fall in love and feel that way about a person. So it was just this, like, really kind of amazing balancing act. Like, the clockwork in the head of the foe is not the only thing with, like, a very precise mechanism. That felt like a visual encapsulation of what was happening inside of the episode. And then, yeah, you know, who doesn't love a banana dockery?

Great. Now that I know that Adam's like issue with 10 stems from defensiveness of Rose, I appreciate it all the more. I like that. Yeah. And like Mickey having his like kind of I told you so moment, you know, in that invoking Cleopatra, just causing Mickey stuff. And I think the, the, the, like this is such an emotionally profound episode and one of the funniest episode. and one of the funniest episodes. Like there's just a moment, there's the moment where the horse

is just following him on the ship. Like, just nonverbal comedy of the horse and like the score is just sort of like plunking along. Yeah, some of the choice snatches of dialogue for Renet, there's a vest, talking to Rose, she says, there's a vessel in your world where the days of my life are pressed together like the chapters of a book

so that he may step from one to the other. without increase of age, while I, weary traveler, must always take the slower path, the slower path. Sophia Miles is so good as Renette. And when I saw this episode, I thought she was going to be, like, the biggest star in the world. And, you know, she's in an underworld movie. She's done a few things. But, like, nothing that's ever been, like, worthy of her the way that this is, I think. And I think there's something that Moffitt does with language and more importantly with

these sort of mythological namings of things we talked about this before, the oncoming storm is like, you know, that's not a Moffatism, but like, Doctor Who is full of these, you know,

bad wolf, blah, blah, but like Moffat particularly is really fond of that. You get like, a later you'll get like the girl who waited and the lonely centurion and like all, you know,

all this sort of stuff like that. So lonely angel, slower path, the weary traveler, like, you know, and it's repeated, you know, by the time you hear it,

like repeated three or four times, you're just sort of like, I get the concept of the slower path. And it's so, like, it's so meaningful. And it's so engages in that, that pain of immortality and then the pain of mortality, you know, and all of that. So, yeah. Oh, man. It's just there was something like so crackling between them. When he realizes for the first time that this, like, stunning woman in front of him is Renette in the way that he says, like, goodness, how you've

grown. And you almost see, like, I'm tracking with great interest, the doctor's sexual appetite, and, like, kind of to see, like, lost really present for her one of the first times was really interesting. And then even the kind of, like, giddy way that he talks about later, like, says snog, you know, snogging her. And I, I, the, the, the, to the slow path point, like, the way that the episode. establishes so quickly the depth of this connection across time. And if you only had a few moments in total with somebody, but for you, from your perspective, that was over the swath of your entire

existence. Like when she says, strange, like, how could you be a stranger to me? That was just amazing. And then the little glimpses of him, like, checking in and kind of, like, almost shyly standing watch. And, like, you feel there's something different in that than, like, the bold kind of, like looming like almost like I'm fixed on the like a gargoyle overlooking your city. I'm always here. It's like let me duck behind where the gargoy on my piece so you don't catch me watching. Just felt like a really new kind of flavor that I loved. The mind melt scene was amazing.

Like I just loved it. Like there's again the kind of the invitation and the intimacy. Like when he first says, oh dear, now you've had some cowboys in here, an amazing line. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he says, you know, oh, there's a door just there. You might want to close. Oh, actually several. And she's kind of like smirking.

And like, it's like, okay, like, what do you want somebody to see or know, right? But then what does she see of him, that loneliness? It was just heartbreaking. How can you bear it, she says. And like, I love the way that she summed up not only what was happening specifically in that scene in that moment, but more broadly, the nature of connection, right? A door wants open. maybe stepped through in either direction.

And so, like, you feel the power that has over him. And when he runs, like, when he's like, you know, pack a bag, I'll be back in two minutes. And he goes and he hugs Rose and he's thrilled to see them. And he asks Rosa Mickey how long they waited and says, always wait that long. It's not like he wants to move on from them. But he runs back to go find Renette again. And he can't wait to go show her the stars. And then she's not there.

It's too late. And even the time lord couldn't change that. That was just devastating. It was so sad. It was so sad, Joe. And the way, I mean, like, it's so interesting because I don't think of Doctor Who as being, like, so super connected. Only because they don't, the seasons don't really, maybe until later, do that sort of like, Buffy Vampire's Slayer Big Bad, overarching over the whole season.

But when you rewatch and rewatch, you see the. intentionality of the path that is lead for you here. So his separation from Renet or missing Renet and all of this or trapped on the other side of the mirror from Rose, like all of this is laying track for the end of the season and this connection, a door that remains shut, you know, this connection forever severed. Do you want to talk about, you know, this is our last Rose episode that we're going to talk about, do you want to talk about the season two finale a little bit? And I'll be, without spoiling my superlative picks, I'll be bringing it up later.

So we can do it now and then, or we can save it, whichever. But I assure you I will be, I'll be choosing it for one of my categories. Actually, same. So we can just save it. But yeah, it's the same way. It probably is. But like, you know, it's, again, like the loss of the Sarah Jane aspect, the Renette aspect, this is all just sort of laying the path for Rose's departure.

which is, you know, you don't have to have it in order to feel it, but it's a genius that it's there. All right. So that is season two. Those are our highlights of season two. Also, just like really genuinely shout out love and monsters, where in which they imply that our main guy that I've said, fucks the paving stone.

Yeah, just getting constant blowjobs from moaning. Mone Myrtle. Trapped in a slab of concrete. Oh, yes. All right, that brings us to season three. Steve Lee, play this good, please. Why did he speak to me? Oh, low-level telepathic fields were born with just an extra synaptic end gram causing.

Is that how he talks? That's him. All you have to do is open it in his back. You knew this all along and yet you watched while there's Redfern and I... I didn't know how to stop you. He gave me a list of things. to watch how that wasn't included. Falling in love.

That didn't even occur to him. No. Then what sort of man is that? And now you expect me to die. Sad. This is a two-parter, season three, episode A and episode nine, Human Nature, Family of Blood.

We've referenced it a couple times. This is when the doctor hides himself in a character called John Smith falls in love with a human woman. and Martha, who has been meanwhile stuck in the past, working as a servant and, you know, being a black woman right around a time in which that's not cool in the UK, has to wake him up and he has to leave this mortal life that he has crafted behind, has to kill John Smith so that he can be the doctor again. and Thrones guest star check-in Mallory Rubin. Oh, man.

Joe, this was more than just a Thrones guest star check-in. I mean, you have, I don't even know. Is the main association for you now, the Crown, or is it succession? The Seed Sniffer, Pip Torrens. He's always Tommy Lucille is from the Crown to me, absolutely. But, yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, who are your favorite guest stars in this?

I mean, obviously, this is where we get time with our beloved Harry Lloyd, Vassaris of Marex. Yeah. Jorgens here. Thomas Rody Sankster and Harry Lloyd are our thrones. Jessica Hines for people who love Spaced is Nurse Redfern here. It's Harry Lloyd for me. And I saw these episodes before I saw Thrones. And so when he shows up in the blonde wig, I was just like, oh, my God.

my guy from human nature, family of blood. And just the way that I sent you photo of this, the way he tilts his head, you love his nostril flare. The sniff. It's amazing. There's just like something about him. And all like all the people who are doing the family are great. Like the little girl is great and very creepy too and stuff like that.

But like the difference between what Harry Lloyd does is Baines as a human versus Baines as, you know, the brother in the family, he's one of my favorite Doctor Who villains. And when I was thrilled, directed by Charles Palmer, written by Paul Cornell, I was thrilled that you loved this two-partner because it's one of my favorites, and it never rates high on people's lists, Dr. Koo. What? It is not considered an iconic installment. A lot of people, like, write off season three altogether, barring Blink, which we'll talk about. Wow, I'm shocked to you. I thought these were sublime.

Yeah, absolutely incredible. The family perfect, perfect chilling villains. No special effects required. Just the old sniff and tilt of the head. And this idea, again, that we talked about with the master of the doctor having to confront himself this time from the outside. That clip we just played of like what kind of a man is that, right? What sort of a man is that? I have to be that, you know.

It's just horrifying. and another, and another, like, very poignant doctor love story. You want to say about that? I thought that these two episodes were beautiful. I absolutely loved them. I agree with everything you said about the family. It's just really, really fun and freaky in a great way. One of my favorite things about these two episodes

and seeing the doctor as John Smith, seeing him living a human life, the doctor getting to see his whole life, very briefly, the way that his companions do, like as this impossible thing, as this fairy tale, like, could it be real? The journey of a journal of impossible things, right? That name, like, captures it all so well. And the way that as he's flipping through the pages and showing it to Joan, he says, this is one of my favorite lines in the stretch of these two seasons,

I sometimes think how magical life would be. stories like this were true. And like for him they are, right? That's his entire 900 year existence, but to not have the awareness of that and then crave it and long for it. And like you'd think, okay, well, that would give you this complete new appreciation, but it's still just such a source of anguish to return to it, like, but also just the pull of it and the possibility and trying to capture on the page or on our screens, the totality of this thing that like you can't even totally wrap your mind around. I just thought was really lovely.

And, you know, Joan and that romance, that courtship, that relationship, I loved for a lot of different reasons. I mean, the quote that you already played at the beginning, like falling in love that didn't even occur to him. What sort of man is that? It was just agonizing as a way to have the doctor himself, even though he is in John Smith at this moment, identify and prod and, like, to identify and prod. like critique that aspect of his detachment, you know? And like, can you let yourself

form the kind of connection that you're so afraid of. And the reason you're afraid of it is because you're afraid you're going to lose it. But does that mean that you shouldn't have it? Like, what is life without that really? And that was just, I thought, kind of amazing. I also loved, we had like, there's the, we learned that Joan is a widow that she has lost her husband. And I liked, I mean, it was very sad. obviously, but like I liked the way that that kind of functioned as a parallel in a way for whether after you've lost something, whatever that something is or whoever that someone is, you can allow yourself to feel that way about someone else again. So like for her, it's a very intimate

thing, her husband and now John Smith. And for the doctor, it's like, all of Galefrey, right? And then, like, can you form attachments with people who are mortal who you know you're going to lose at some point? And I loved when she said, is this one he's showing her the sketch? And she says, you've made me far too beautiful. And he said, well, that's how I see you. And he just said it like so tenderly. And it was just wonderful.

My heart melted in my chest. And she said, widows aren't supposed to be beautiful. I think the world would rather we stopped. Is that fair that we stop? And he says, that's not fair at all. And of course, doesn't realize it, but he's talking about himself too. And that was just great.

I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I love that what runs in parallel to all of this is this commentary, of course, on, like, this boy school and training these boys to be soldiers. And this is, like, this is an ongoing theme in Doctor Who, where,

you know, I don't, it's not, I don't think it's a spoiler to say that, like, there's a future moment where the doctor is confronted with this idea of turning his companions into weapons. And, like, you know, despite what he says to the master in the finale of season three, this idea that, like, he has taken a shop girl and a medical student and attempt from Chiswick in the shape of Donald Noble and whatever and like turn them into these like warriors in a way. And the pain and the cost of that, the way that this ends with the Red Poppy remembrance sort of ceremony, this very like British meditation on war.

And in that way we get Joan as like, yes, she's already a widow, but she's also someone who sent the person she loves John Smith off to war and he doesn't come back. But she knows that she has to send him, right? Because she's like, they'll just keep coming. You know, she's the one who basically convinces him that he has to go. And when he comes back and she says, John Smith is dead and you look like him. And he said, but he's here inside if you look in my eyes.

And she says, answer me this. just one question. That's all if the doctor had never visited us. If he'd never chosen this place on a whim, would anybody here have died? And he can't, you know, he can't deny that. And then she says you can go. Rural. Right. So she is identifying that, you know, he's saying, John Smith is in me, that he is here in me. I can be that and more. And she's like, it's the more that I don't like. It's this other part of you that brings death and war and destruction where you go. You consider yourself a savior of the galaxy, but you are also the instigator of a lot of carnage. And...

Oh, man. You know, and then, you know, this ceremony at the end, where this vicar is reading a beautiful, you know, there's so much beautiful World War I, British poetry about the death and destruction of a war. But they were staunch to the end against odds and counted. they fell with their faces to the foe. They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old. Age shall not weary them nor the years condemn at the going down of the sun. And in the morning, we will remember them. I mean, they were young, straight of limb.

And then you get like Jojin, right? Thomas, no one has ever looked younger than Thomas Brody Sankster at like any period of his life, including the Queen's Gambit. Like this is just like the youngest-looking person that has ever existed. And to see him in battle. Yeah, you get all the close-ups of the boys' faces as though like the tears are streaming down their faces. Yeah, I was waiting for,

for little Timmy here to go full Jojin, like he's speaking to Carl from Jen Alley and say to the scarecrow. I saw your body burn. I saw the snowfall and bury your bones. Didn't happen, sad. Sad, sad, sad. That point about like healing, but also who's inflicting the wound

or what is the cause of that is a great one. And it encapsulates nicely what was so powerful about the episode. Like, you're living inside of this thing, but you have to confront what is outside of it. I thought that moment where he, where the doctor is still John Smith, but learning about the doctor more and more, right?

And realizing that he's going to have to leave this life behind, asks Martha what he needs her for? Yes. And her reply was because he's lonely. And she said, and then he said, and that's what you want me to be calm. Like, that was fucking heartbreaking. And to your other point from a few minutes ago

about the connections across these episodes and the way that it really heightens the emotional impact, you know, this episode, like I was, it was hard to not think about the doctor and Rose in Doomsday. And one of the things that he said, said to her there, which was, here you are living a life day after day, the one adventure I can never have.

So sad. There is also, to be fair, some comedy in this. And I just want to say that when the doctor shows up to the family at the end and he's sort of bumbling, he's pretending to be John Smith and he's bumbling all over the place. And then you realize that he is the doctor. And he says, because if there's one thing you shouldn't have done, you know. shouldn't let me press all those buttons. It's just really, you know.

And there's always that, that always sits next to, this is one of, I think, the most soulful and tragic story, little story arcs on Doctor Who. But there is always just like some comedy sitting beside, you know. And that's, you know, the doctor dances. All right. Last but not least. By tragedy, you mean that Baines never brought back the beer?

That was tough for the last. those stuff. It's just the way his hair is flopped over his forehead. I love Baines so much. Wonderful. Mother. I'm going to start calling you a ghost of mine. Mother of mine, father of mine.

All right. Steve, will you play this last clip? It might sound familiar to some of you. People assume that time is a strict progression of course to affect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey-wimmy stuff. Yeah, I've seen this bit before. You said that sentence got away from me.

It got away from me, yeah. Season three, episode 10, Blink, largely considered, if not one of the, like, if not the best episode of Doctor Who, it's the one that people say, start with Blink. See if you like it. You can go from there because it is very self-contained. The doctor and Martha are barely in it. This is a Sally Sparrow adventure directed by Hetty McDonald, who has done a ton of stuff. But I always think of her for having directed normal people show that Mallory and I are obsessed with. And then written by, once again, here he comes, Stephen Moffat.

Starring a very, very young, had not quite hit across the pond yet, Carrie Mulligan, as Sally Sparrow. Tell me what you loved about this episode, Mallory. I thought it was fantastic. This was the one that I had heard the most about before starting my Who journey, and that can go either way sometimes, right? You can either be like, wow, I finally got to see

and also love this thing that people have been talking about for so long, or you can be like, boy, that was a lot of hype for something that didn't really deliver. This definitely delivered. I thought this was great. I guess I would say that this,

of the four that we're talking about and of the ones that we loved, I think that this was the best and most artful and expert sci-fi episode and the one that contained ideas operating at

like a high frequency that I just thought were like pretty extraordinary but the two episodes we just talked about human nature and family of blood were my favorite Doctor Who episodes

because I think they they told me more about the characters and their emotional connections but Blink played with sci-fi tropes in areas of interest that we both adore. I mean, this is like a just tremendously interesting and rich paradox episode,

everything with the transcripts and just like was great and really rewarding and fulfilling. I think to your point about how the doctor and Martha are like barely in it, again, to me, I'm just like, what an example of when what could and probably should be a bug is a feature. Like if you can pull something off

and grip people that fully when the primary draw is kind of sidelined. But because that was such an, interesting deployment of them, you know, in the... Also, like, we love an Easter egg, right? It was so funny, the idea of these 17 DVDs and the Easter eggs and, like, thinking about people, like, talking about Easter eggs on the internet, and the doctor being an Easter egg was just, like, really kind of amusing and I loved.

It was a spooky episode. It was a sad episode. It was a funny episode. Just Billy ripping off the... And you're hot. Like, switch, you know, yeah. great stuff. Adam, as you know, Joe, has started doing a recurring Weeping Angel bit in our home where I will, like, be staring at my computer screen and I have my headphones on, so I'm like really focused and then I turn and he just freezes and like pretends to be one of the Weeping Angels like a foot away for me and it's, he thinks it's very amusing.

It's very cute. It's also actually genuinely terrifying. Yeah, I just thought this was. like a really inventive and creative and a deftly executed episode that I quite enjoyed. What do you love about Blink? Another like relentless, silent monster, right? And this idea of like, it will steal your time. It'll steal your life. It's not going to kill you, right? It'll just steal your life from you and take the energy from that, from your potential. Wibbley-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff.

Probably the most famous Doctor Who line of all time and something that people use all the time when they're talking about any other time travel story or any other sort of paradox. You know what I mean? It just sort of like has become common shorthand for, yeah, can we

explain what's happening here? Do we need to? I love I love Billy, DiBilly Shepton and the poignancy of That, I mean, it's not even a love story. It's a flirtation cut short, right? But I love, but old Billy, right, when he's dying and talking to Sally and he says,

Catch me going. I'm an old sick man, but I've had something to look forward to. Ah, life is long and you are hot. Incredible. Oh, look at my hands. They're old man hands. How did that happen? And I'll stay with you till the rain stops.

You know what I mean? It's just sort of like absolutely beautiful. you know, with love and respect to Larry Nightingale. Like, you know, I don't know that he is on Sally Sparrow's level, but I'm rooting for him. And then I love throughout, it never gets tired to me the idea of the doctor losing his Tartis, when the doctor gets separated from his Tartis and how he then becomes stranded and how does he get back to it. I love that. And yeah, it's just, it's spooky.

It's an interesting You know I've seen many Weeping Angel cosplayers at conventions Absolutely fascinating cosplay Really tricky to pull up Very cool And then they

You know the Weeping Angels will come back And they have just been woven Into the fabric of Doctor Who To become But this is like such an important origin story for them Within the universe Yeah I liked the way that he like trapped them too

Because they were looking at each other And outsmarted them There's like a, you know, a little bit of like a, like, Bilbo's trolls kind of a thing there. That was really fun. That was just great. All right. Did we do it? We did.

Superlatives? Part three. Superlatives. I'm going to give you a 10 quote. Oh, you're brilliant. There's a, there's a cut scene from the Christmas invasion where, that I was watching the other day on YouTube where David Tennant has this whole. whole sequence when he first wakes up and he's walking around and he was like he tries to say fantastic and he can't say it like that's that's that's nine's word and he can't say it so he's like

so then he starts like workshopping other words and he comes up with brilliant you okay brilliant brilliant you um so that's that's that's 10 superlative all right so let's start with favorite line mowler what do you got so I'll make it like non wibbly wobbly wobbly timing-you-W-mey edition, though that, you know, probably is the pick. And I, as a person who's prone to often saying, establish the rules of the universe, like, actually just really, like, appreciated this and loved it. And it's, like, unlocked something for me in a way that I find actually pretty helpful. That's amazing. Um, okay, I have, I have two. I couldn't pick one. Of course. Sorry. No. I'm honestly shocked. It's only two. I feel proud of myself for limiting

myself to two. Okay. One is an exchange between the doctrine internet. and the girl in the fireplace. Reason tells me you cannot be real. Oh, you never want to listen to reason. Love it. That's the call to adventure summed up in one line in his reply there, and I just thought it was perfect. So it's a tie for me between that ends.

The doctor and the professor in Utopia, might I ask, what species are you? and the doctor says, Time Lord, Last of Us. Heard of them? Legend or anything? Not even a myth? Blimey.

End of the universe is a bit humbling. I thought that was amazing. He's like, the doctor, I'm out of him a lot. I'm yon. I'm a lot. I'm going to hate you with, you know, maybe this is cheating, but I'm going to use

the, Dr. Donna exchanged from the end of Christmas invasion where she says, am I ever going to see you again? He says, if I'm lucky. And she says, just promise me one thing. Find someone. I don't need anyone. He says.

She says, yes, you do. Because sometimes I think you need someone to stop you. Again, not to tip the scale too much on the oncoming storm that is Donna Noble, but like the way in which she pairs broad comedy with these very, soulful moments. Incredible. Best villain. This is easy. This is the master for all the reasons we already talked about. I will say the master, best villain, weeping angels best, I'm going to say like creature,

monster or whatever. Like, yeah, I'm going to put the sweeping angels, smuggle that in there. Best fit. Malibu Kroved. This was easy for me. Okay. without question, one of the most inspired choices in the history of television, the doctor wearing converse, Chuck Taylor highs, the cream, the black, the cranberry. I actually did. I was so, I was so interested in this and like, how did they make this choice?

And I was doing just some very cursory Googling. And Tenet, there's an insider article from a few years ago, Tenet talking about this at Pallyfest and just saying, like, he basically was like, I, I'll just read the, I'll just read the quote because this was so funny. I had these really old battered cream colored convert shoes that they brought in and I said, I want to wear these. And people didn't like that idea. And then he talks about how he really had to like convince them that the doctor should wear, should pair his blue suit or his pinstripe suit and his brown coat with some beat up chucks. And I'm here for it. It's great stuff. Loved it. I think he gets

different chucks in season four if memory serves. But they're still Chucks. I'm going to go with, it's not my favorite episode, but The Idiot's Lantern when Rose and Ten are dressed up to go see Elvis or whatever, and, like, she's in her little, like, Bobby Soxer outfit, and he has, like, pomp-a-dored his hair. Yeah. Great stuff. Wonderful.

Best guest star, Holly Rubin. This is not actually my pick, but we haven't mentioned Andrew Garfield yet, which is just shocking. So we should just do that here. very questionable American accent. It's astonishing, it's frankly astonishing Tennessee and twang here. My pick is Harry Lloyd as

as Baines, followed closely by Carrie Mulligan as Sally. Yeah, I mean, I don't know why it's not Harry Lloyd. I wrote down Derek Jacoby, but it might be Harry Lloyd, but Derek Jacoby, I just like, I revere him. So it's like, it just

seems very important that this like Shakespearean actor is doing Doctor Who. It's a great one. But I also wrote down baby Andrew Garfield to make sure that we mentioned him. Horniest moment, we might have the same thing. What do you have, Mallory? Oh, yes. Well, it's our friend.

I guess it could be the thing we've already talked about, which is Elton just being like, yeah, we've got to love life. For me, this is just the initial moments that we're back with Captain Jack Harkness. And in the span of, like, legitimately 17. In seconds, he tries to fuck Martha, the doctor, some random dude in a hallway, and Chan. Like, he's just every single being he meets. He's like, what's up? I love the guy in the hallway. That's one of my favorite.

And then whenever, whenever 10 goes, stop it, stop it. Cringiest low budge moment. Yeah. Also, this one was easy for me, though I'm worried this might be a hot take and that maybe people have a lot of affection for this. So I apologize if so. The doctor turning into Dobby the House of the Last of the Time Lords is my pick and it was not a difficult one for me. I wrote the curious Benjamin Buttification of the doctor. That's the same for me.

But runner up is the fucking bat people. school reunion. Absolutely terrible. Really bad. My runner-off is Mark Gattis' C-Gat-as' C-Gi-I face of the swelling scorpion body I hate that episode.

Like, shout out to Gougu Mbatha Ra who's here, you know, like blah, blah, but like I fucking hate that episode. I skip it. I don't like it. All right. Funniest moment. Boy.

Really tough. So tough. It's very difficult to pick. I also have, I feel like I'm too heavy on Girl in the Fireplace because my first, the first things I wrote down were when he realizes who Renette is, and he's like, fantastic gardener. He just killed me.

And then later, when he's, when he's, then, Rose is like, yeah, you know, his wife, like, must have loved her. And Ted's like, actually, yeah, they're really close. And he says, France, it's a different planet. That just killed me. I loved that. But in the interest of nominating something that's not from the girl in the fireplace, the fit laughter that I fell into when I realized that Jackie and Pete had named their dog Rose in Rise of the Cyberman was just just remarkable.

And then Rose realizing that later, it was really funny. What about you? What are your picks? We didn't talk about that. The return of Pete, were you surprised to see him again? Did you enjoy this reunion of the family? Love it. Of the family.

Great to see Pete. Yeah. Fun to, fun to, you know, explore the multiverse. And I wonder, I don't know, I wonder if we'll see them again when we meet the baby. I mean, I have to assume, though how? I guess we'll find out, maybe. I'm going to give it to New Earth, the first episode of season two when Cassandra has entered Tens' body. and David Tennant's delivery of goodness me, I'm a man, y'am, so many parts and hardly used two hearts.

Oh, baby, I'm beating out a samba. And then he goes, yeah, slim and a little bit foxy. You thought so, too. I've been inside your head. You've been looking. You like it. Amazing. The hardly used was tough.

Let's get the doctor out there a little bit more. But just like 10 reading all of those lines as his introduction as the doctor and he's like foxy, you know, etc., etc. Great pick. Emotional moment, I think we have the same one. This is our chance, I think, to talk about whether or not Rose should invest in a new brand of mascara, right? I mean, without question, this is the pick. This was so heart-wrenching. I was sobbing and weeping and just freely, freely crying at the end of this episode.

I mean, the initial, like, separation and Rose, like, refusing to stay with her family and the doctor insisting she needed to go. But then the pleasure, like the palpable pleasure that he exhibits when she's there, like the whole team, hope and glory. Mutton Jeff shiver and shake. And then when Pete pulls Rose into the other world at the last second as the breach is closing, we talked in our first pot about like Rose sitting at the cafe with Jackie and Mickey and talking about like how she just could not live her old life again and how we're feeling that for her, but also like to be those other people who aren't enough anymore. Like what does that feel like? And you get that again here as they all just watch her like weep.

You know, we both, I think, of course, are thinking as their faces are pressed up against the wall there of one of our favorite also saddest moments and stories, right, Joe? This is like, it's not a bench in the botanical gardens in Oxford. It's a wall in an office building inside of a Torchwood complex. But this is Will and Lyra and, like, having to make that choice or having some force make it for you. And it's just absolutely anguish-inducing. The way when they press their little faces, like she's sort of like resting against the wall, and then he sort of touches the wall and puts his face up, and she sort of like gasps, like she can sense him, hear him, whatever.

Her mascara streaked of the, like, you know, just absolute canals of makeup streaming down her face. And then he's not, he's just... still and devastated but so he'll cry later but like you know calm about it because like this is another one this is another one that he has to say goodbye to right and he knows he can't get her back and then as he said as he referenced earlier like he burns at the heart of a star heart of a dying star right so that he can get to her burning up a sun just to say goodbye and then she Billy Piper's like, anguished, sobbing delivery on the beach and him, you know, beaming up away right before he says, you know, that he loves her. Unbelievable.

Unbelievable. When he said two universes would collapse and she said so. Yeah. I felt that. I mean, man. Yeah. And we should say for the Martha lovers. out there, by the way. So like, you know, roses is trapped in her in an alternative universe

forever. We'll see. But Martha, who leaves the doctor here, she leaves, so it's like June 2007 when like Jack shows up at the end of season three, blah, blah. February 2008, Martha shows up on Torchwood. Not like as a regular, but like she's further adventure. right? So there's like further adventures of Martha Jones are available to you if you want to watch Torchwood. Wonderful. All right. Well, we did it. I don't want to move forward on my own, you know? Like the little sad nod when Rose asked on your own and the doctor had to nod, Joe, I want to be with you. I want you to hear when I say I love you. I don't want to just stand alone in the tartist with tears streaming down my face. Will you be going to Bad Wolf Bay on your travels?

It's not a real place, but I really wish it. where I did have to Google whether or not it was when you asked me that earlier, because I'll be in Norway next week. And I was like, is Bad Wolf Bay real? It's not. But it could have been, but it's not. I will be looking at some fjords, but it didn't look very fjordy to me, that beach that she was on. That does it for us. Like we said, we will be back, of course, across the Spider-Verse coverage, but also at the end of June with season four and the special. so all the rest of the David Tennant episodes. There are many specials, so make sure you watch them all.

And then if you hit Matt Smith, you've gone too far. You'll know. You'll know. Matt Smith shows up at the end of David Tenet's last episode. So when you see Matt Smith, you're like, stop. That's it. I'm done. I did it.

Thanks as always to our wonderful companions, Steve Allman, or Jenner-Rigrapal, for their production work on this episode. Gomi a dinner on on the social. And Steve, will you play us out with a fond farewell? Oh, I love this. Can I just say, traveling with you? I love it. Me too.

Come on.