The Ringer-Verse - ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 4 Instant Reactions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: February 7, 2026

The Boys are back, and they start off the episode by jumping back into the great lightsaber debate. Then they dive into ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 4, starting with a look at Baelor as a character. (0:00) Intro (18:52) Spoilers ahead (20:44) ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 4 reactions (1:21:32) Outro (1:24:29) Post Credits Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Producers: Aleya Zenieris and Devon Baroldi Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Welcome into the Ringiverse. This is, of course, the Ringers' Nexus podcast feed for all things to fandom. We'll be right back after this. Bows on socials.

Insta, Twitter, Facebook, and TikTok. Jomi, you didn't even intro us. Yeah. Oh, I apologize. God, damn. We're not doing that today. Why not? I was joking.

Are we going to address the problem? Steve, the architect almond, the builder and tinker of things. Jomi, the explainer. You've got questions to answer. There's old man, Van, he is a receding resurgent, hairline. Co-baby Chuck, toy for a kid, a closer. We're putting a eye out today. The midnight, boys.

Boom! Put that down. Please. I found this outside. You don't even know what it is. No, it looks like a hinge or some sort. It's like a bracket. Yeah, the brackets to brace the sign behind you.

To brace what sign? That sign? But this to me... We're talking about Game of Thrones, and this could be like a medieval torture sort of device. or a weapon of some sort. You think that's what Ramsey Bowton was using on Rieke? Probably to take off the...

To cut his... Now we got Arian too, coming into eggs... As fucking beverage. Smashes crazy. Yeah. Bistachios with that. Making a brother into a sister. Nasty work.

Yuck. Hey, like, comment, subscribe, share. Share this episode to someone with someone, should I say, that loves this content that you think will love these conversations. Share this with somebody

who loves the Midnight Boys, okay? What you think would love the Midnight Boys? Jummi? Is there anything interesting happening on social media? Dog, they're loving the Game of Thrones content. They're really messing with it. Who? Who's loving it? The people, the likes, the followers.

It's all going up because people are messing with the content. Guys, continue to like and follow for more, man. We're here. We're making it. A lot of opinions about the lightsaber battle discussion. Right. You guys, I don't run from anything. I don't run from debate.

I don't run from conversation. If you think that lightsaber, the people hit me up, man, you love Luke Skywalker so much. And you're not saying that he was involved in any iconic lightsaber battles. So what? All right. Honestly, I just got to also tell the people, like, we talk about real lightsaber battles. Like, keep that.

I don't exactly say what's that. Like that, there's level of this shit. Come on, man. No, I'm saying there's an MBA and there's college. Don't do that. Don't do that. There's no significant animated lightsaber battle. That's not true.

That's so not true. You're just saying that. Like, we got to be real. You know what? There absolutely are. We have to get to what we're talking about. Y'all just saying this so y'all can sound like. We're trying to be aeriodite.

Like we're like the real scholars. What about what happened with the emperor? It's a cartoon. And so the reality. And what's the best? You know what happened in the anime? I'm still like,

all right, you love, we love it. No, you don't. You don't. You don't. You don't. What's the greatest

lightsaber battle? We love it, you don't. Any Clone Wars or Rebels lightsaber battle is just as good as dual the fate of life. Nobody said nobody,

I wouldn't say that. Animated is different, guys. No, but I think if we're, if you're having like a robust discussion, if you actually want to talk about

the totality of the enterprise, then those. be included. Then you would mention those. You would talk about Osoka versus Ball. No, you would.

Asoka versus Vader. Yes, you would. It's a cartoon. You would, I would, you would mention them, you would bring them up. You'd be like, you would have to assess a validity.

Hey, I'm gonna be real with you. This is what I'll say. If that shit, man, this is, by the way, shout out to Rebels and shout out to Clone Wars because I love these shows, okay? I love these shows. I love these shows.

I love them. They're fantastic shows. I love these shows. If that shit was like, Demon Slayer level animation. Oh, for God. Let's go. First of all,

that caught a show. If that shit was like demon-sla level. That cost a trillion dollars. What cost a trillion dollars? Demon Slick. It didn't cost that much money. They could have, excuse this,

whack. They could have done it. Look, even that, you guys, it's Star Wars. It only counts if it's live action. Yes. That's what I'm saying. There's what I'm saying.

Can't give you guys. All right. That's where you're at. That's okay. Can you guys think of anything that is as. compelling in animation

when it started in live action now it's one thing if something is always animated then it has its own expectation it comes with its own

set but like if something starts if something starts live action then you animate it what you see in your mind and how you come to it

is different normally now I would say sometimes a lot of times the shit starts animated and then gets live action it's kind of the same shit you're used to...

So what about something like Batman the animated series? What about it? Technically, technically, wait, did we get a Batman cartoon first? No, we got live action Batman. We got Adam West first.

Right. We got Adam West but it's based off a comic. Yeah, but the animated series came after like Keaton's Batman. But I will tell you this though, that animated series is a complete reimagining of the Batman tale of that time, it's its own thing.

Now, if they took that animated series and tried to do it live action, I think that that would be a high bar. I mean, I would argue that, and I'm trying to think it may be like the audience can help me, you guys can help me. But just off the time of my head, I think Star Wars is probably the only major

franchise that did this where it's like, the animation is canon to the movies, the live action movies. So you have to like, when you build the whole canon, it does matter. Yeah, but I think they hemmed themselves in because I think the general populace don't give a shit about those cartoons.

Then that's nothing against the cartoons. It's just most people are kind of like, what? I think that's fair for most people to have that. But for the four of us sitting at this table, you got to give a credence. Yeah. Yeah. You literally, you're giving it credence. We're having a-spin that 45 seconds.

We're having to say you don't care. Hold on. Hold on for a second. Hold on for a second. I You just said you didn't care No I said I literally said I looked in the camera

Run this back Megan is black and white I said I love rebels And I love Clone Wars By the way And shout out to Rebels And shout out to Clone Wars

Because I love these shows Okay I love these shows I love these shows I love them They're fantastic shows I love these shows I love the cartoon

But then also you don't care You don't know what I'm saying is If we're talking about those shows have specific things that they do story wise to make the entire lore bigger. That is very meaningful.

However, if we're talking about specific action stuff and visual delights and dazzling and all of that stuff like that, once you've seen it live action, it's harder to connect with it in animation. There are levels to it. I think it is a softer CR

take on animation. I disagree. That nigga, C.R. I disagree. I don't watch cartoons. Yeah, yeah. That was so fucking crazy. He fucked with Blue-Eyat Samurai and that was like a one crossover. C.R. said, I said, hey, C.R.

Do you care about this? C.R.'s response was, Is it animated? I don't watch cartoons. I was like, fuck. I almost felt, by the way. Fuck me. Me and Chris have never talked about that.

I felt playing a little bit. Do you think you fuck with Demon Slayer? Like, if I want, like, if I didn't know Chris as well as I knew Chris, I don't respond. Like, fuck you, nil. I'm trying to tell you if this is good. And you come back and me like, let me look it up because it's in here somewhere.

That's so funny. Like, I'm going to search this in my messages. He just says, I don't watch. That's one of my favorite things. It's like, oh, Chris, man, you're going to watch How to Train Your Dragon? You're going to watch your brazen? He's like, no.

Why would I do that? I was too far. It was too far. Like, it was too long ago. Okay. It's not in there. I got a new phone, whatever.

It's not in there. That's so funny. But that was very funny. I'm saying, you guys can talk about your animated lightsaber battles if you want, and you guys can put them up there.

You're bullshitting yourselves. That's not. It doesn't look as cool. It don't hold the same weight. And to your point, there's stuff that these shows do amazing and do well, but they just don't have the same gravitas or the same weight. Like,

is cartoons fucking fighting? Like, what? I don't know, man. I think there's like, if we do, maybe not like at a top five, but we did like a top ten, I feel like one or two moments from the animated shows

could sneak in there. I mean, hell, Mace fucking up those droids in Clone Wars. Okay, Tarkozy. Let's get to, let's get to, I'm just saying, you guys, think about Darth Mall versus Palpatine.

All right? That's a lot of fun, Mark. I'm not saying it's not fun. What if that shit was in live action, no? What if Molly Mall? Okay.

even the lesser lightsaber battles in live action are better. See, that's lying. That's, come on, man. That's not true. That's not true. That's not true. You think Obi-Wan and Anakin poking sticks at each other, right? Or Anakin, Darth Vader in New Hope means more or is better than the stuff we see in the, in the cartoons.

I would rather watch that. You're not. Okay. This is lying. This is lying. You know what? Okay. I got it.

I got to be real. Yeah, I got it. Y'all got it. Y'all did right. Y'all got it. That lightsaber battle, this also might be. be generational. Who knows? That lightsaber battle is not very fun to watch, right? But it's

way up there with one of the biggest moments in film history. I'm not saying it's not, but which... And you're trying to your point. The dazzling, the they just going like this. Yeah, but here's the thing, in film, when two lightsabers like hit each other, there's a feeling of from the sound to the weight to the weight shot, you're just like, oh my gosh, these are real fucking weapons. And then when you watch the cartoons, you're like, these are

cartoons, do a fucking backflips. Like, they let you know, it don't hit the same. And it's okay. It's just baffling. Can't say something else? Okay. Last thing I'll say about this. This is some real old man stuff between you guys right now. It could be way, man. It's just some real, get off my lawn type stuff.

I want everybody know something here. Just so we know this. Everybody in the midnight boys is basically 30 now. Okay. So these niggas play this dumb ass shit. When we started this bitch, all right, when we started this bitch, you was a baby, you was kind of a baby, you was a baby. Guess what? Ain't no more babies no more.

It's not Midnight boys. It's midnight, man. I'm inching close to the 50, and all of these niggas is old. So, so. Oh, 33's old now? It's not old. But we, we're past. Right.

We're not whippersnapperades? I know, then whipson snapped. But I'll say this. Cartoons sometimes, there's a trade-off. I'll say this about cartoons. I go in and I watch like Wally. And I'm in this constant state of tears the entire time.

Flow, same thing. The same thing because animation is able to capture something that I don't know if it reminds me of my, damn. Yeah, just leave it right there. Just leave it right there. No, no, no. I don't know if it reminds me of my childhood

or if I surrender emotionally to stories about belonging and togetherness and being an outcast. All of that stuff is incredibly effective in animation for me. Like, anytime a character is alone, anytime a character is, like, searching for themselves. Or, like, all that stuff works a lot. because it reminds me of the stuff I would watch when I was a kid, and I'm almost more connected to that in animation.

But if you're talking about, like, action and stuff like that, like, it's hard for animation to kind of get me there. It is. I think it's hard even for the Clone Wars and Rebels' art style to get there. Like, Demon Slayer, it's just like, oh, this is hand-drawn, so you can mess with perspective and a lot of other things. Clone Wars, rebels, they are trying to replicate live action. models have to do what human bodies do

where it's like you can only get so far with that. I don't know, man. Disagree. Hey, guess what? I gotta disagree. This is an agree. What's your favorite lightsaber battle from Clone Wars and all rebels in the way? It's Mar versus Soka

in the finale. Yeah. I can't even have a light saber battle from I'm sure. I mean, you also have what's it called? Obi-Wan Mall rematch. I mean, that's not really a battle, is it? That's emotional, though. You're talking about emotional moments. Hold on. Hold on. Yeah.

That one is cold. Just Obi-1-Mall rematch? Obi-Wan-Mall rematch three moves. Yep. And let me- And no, they're just sizing up the stances. Sizing up the stances. Like, he gets them real quick.

Now, I will say, I don't know that it makes a lot of sense that he will fuck over him that quickly. Why not? You talk about it? Because, I mean, he goes to, I can't remember the exact forms, but he goes into the form that he had

when they first fought, and then Maul matches him. And then he goes into another form. It's like three different changes. And then he's like, boom. And because he left himself open. He's like, that guy has not learned anything over the last how many years. And I've grown.

I think it was an interesting story point. I also think that the Obi-Wan television show kind of plays with it a little bit. It makes it less believable that that would happen when Obi-Wan was so out of practice for so long. Meanwhile, well, I mean, this is after this, right? I know it's after that. But so then, you know, how much time? Whatever. All I'm saying is...

I can see that, though. I think that that one's really cool because... But also, the moment really matters. That battle doesn't go on for very long. The moment is really what matters. And him, Darth Maul piecing out like that... I guess he's dead.

Darth Maul piecing out like that, he's actually not dead, right? No, he's dead. He's dead. He dies there, but who knows? Yeah, who knows? Dark ball piecing out like that, and him and Obi-Wan having that moment in animation, that really works.

That might have been... cheesy in live action. But in animation, I was like, oh, shit, Maul is kind of like an orphan of evil. You never really had a chance. Mom should have been in the live action, I hope you want to show. We should have had a lot more live action ball. That would have been interesting.

That would have been crazy. They really blew it with like killing him in episode one and then just thinking that they couldn't use him a kid. Me Vader and Molly Mall at the Cribble. What was going on at the crib? We're talking about giving time. We're on YouTube, like, comment, subscribe, share. You can watch every Midnight Boys and House of Our episode on YouTube.

slash at Ringervverse and on Spotify. On Sundays, Talk the Thrones will be back. Mal, Joanna, no cartoon, Chris, returning back to Westero's for a night of the seven kingdoms

along with the House of R doing their deep dives. They're doing it doubling up. Well, it won't be on Sunday because this episode, yes, coming out, the episode comes out Friday. Give me guys your Super Bowl picks

who's going to win the game. I got this. I got the, I got the, I see Hawks by three scores. Hawks. Hawks. Hawks. Hawks.

All right, now watch them come out to lose. Wait, did y'all also hear? Yeah. We're not getting no trailers. They, like, there's rumors. Marvel not dropping shit. Good. We not get, good.

Nah, see, that's how they play. It's not really playing. I set this on Twitter. They're moving like, they're moving like pot. They're moving like, hey, we back. We got this thing. The movies better be hitting. Now, they're moving like they was back in the day.

When they wouldn't drop no trailers, remember when End Game and Far From Home coming out, and they was like, y'all going after what? Y'all just going to have to, who knows, when y'all going to see a trailer? All right, for sure. No, y'all got to drop a spidey trailer. Y'all got to drop some. The movies come out and they're not hitting. We got to have a conversation. We got to have a big conversation.

I mean, this is a bigger break. You can't be moving like you're the big guy on campus again. We got four teasers and we still don't got a full trailer. What's going on? Come on. I want the movies to be good. I'm excited, but you can't, you can't act like this now. After the last couple years, you've been having, come on. More button mash coming up as well. All kinds of buttonmash stuff. going on.

I'll say this to Seahawks Nation. I'm being serious. You must win. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying this to the Seahawks. And I'm not even joking. If

the Seahawks lose the Super Bowl, they are my most hated NFL team. What will happen for us? The people of the ringer, the employees of the ringer, if the Patriots win a Super Bowl is unthinkable. It's a dark cloud that will come over these offices. What will go on here in this place?

Can't even imagine. In this culture, if the Patriots win this Super Bowl, this particular one, they're probably going to win some in the future with Drake May. It's probably going to happen. Probably. But if they win this one, oh, my God. A flukeish, weird, we're not supposed to be. their championship.

If this one happens, after a very short time in the football wilderness, we'll be immisorated. I can't even imagine. We'll be emiserated in ways that we don't want to experience. I'm just letting the Seahawks know something here. If that happens, I will blame you. Sam Dardo, can you hear me? Jackson Smith and Chip, but can you hear me?

Lock in. This is a nigga joking. I'm being for real. No, are you serious? Okay. I hate the Patriots just as much as you do. Get it done. Lock in.

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Shit. All right, on today's show, the Midnight Boys react to episode four of a Night of the Seven Kingdoms. In order to do that, we're going to have to talk about this show, which means there might be some spoiler, so that means you have to have a spoiler warning. We're getting ready to talk about... Night some kingdom. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming.

Chuck, midnight manifest. All right, this is your midnight manifest for another of the seven kingdoms, episode four, titled seven, directed by Sarah Adina Smith, written by Aziza Barnes, Annie, Julia Wyman, and Ira Parker. Dunkin is locked away in itself for punching Prince Aryan last episode. Egg arrives with food and an apology, but Dunk is still furious for the week-long deception. Egg tells Dunk that his Uncle Prince,

Baylor wants to meet with them, but the boy is surprised when Dunkin is complimentary of his young squire, despite the child's lies. Prince Baylor shows pity on Dunk but informs him that the crown still wants his head. Baylor advises the knight that there's one way out of his predicament. In front of the king and his court, Dunk challenges Arian to a trial by combat, but when Arian can't squirm out of the predicament, he calls a trial by seven. His 6,000-year-old Andel ritual where two teams and seven champions face off with the losing team being deemed at the guilty party. Dunk instantly knows he screwed as very few lords will back a Hedge Knight's cause, especially against the crown and a team consisting of the king's guard. But to Dunk's surprise, Sir Stephan Fosaway places his full support behind him

and uses his influence to rally more lords to his cause. With the help of egg, Dunk finds his team of six, but a late stage backstabbing for Fosaway leaves the knight unqualified. Dunk makes a rousing speech about what it means to be a knight in the seven kingdoms, which leads Prince Baylor to join the Hedge Knight's team against his brother and nephew. you, that has been your midnight manifest for a night of the seven kingdoms. Then,

before I start with you, this might have been my favorite episode of the season so far. The chills. This is everything I want. In TV, in our little fandom space, when you first saw seven, what were your thoughts?

Seven, the movie, Brad Pitt? The box! I was like, scared of that movie. this fantastic perfect yeah like perfect perfect uh

episode of television very very interesting to me in that this episode is the last episode is kind of the one that the TV show is

uh you know the egg reveal the television show is working itself to that episode to see whether or not it's got you deep enough into this world

for that payoff to really matter to you and if that payoff matters and the show is working. This show right on the heels of that one which is another reason why these being 30 minutes is so meaningful because if they weren't 30 minutes this might have happened to all in the same episode.

Yeah, right, right. Probably not though. You probably would have had the Agravail at the end of one and then this would have been a lot longer with more stuff at the end of it. But the fact that they're both shorter or half hour

means that you can orient them both around these two happenings, these two surprises that say so much about the world and the characters. Like, surprises in the show are always good. Yeah. Very rarely are they as thematically important as these two have been in the last couple of shows. And this one is, it tells you everything you need to know about Baylor, how gallant, how chivalrous, tells you that that idea of being a knight isn't dead.

and it sets up the stakes of the battle to come. And then throughout this whole thing, the first real test of Egg and Dunk's relationship. That's starting the episode with that, with how angry Dunk was at Egg, was a moment where I was like, oh, even I'm forgetting Dunks, the actor who plays Dunk. Peter Claffery?

Claffery, I have to say, everything from what he does in that cell with Egg to the end. where he makes that big speech. I'm like, oh, this is a star making performance. This is the type of episode when you watch where you're like, oh, not only do I see what the casting director

and the showrunner saw in him, I was like, yo, this is like fucking Captain America of his fucking assemble type shit. I got shows. I was like, oh, fuck. Well, he also in this episode gets to kind of run through the full range and gamut of emotions.

Yep. And he changes. a little bit. His anger, a lot of what the character has been about before this, it's about what he didn't know.

But he doesn't know the world that he doesn't understand. This is now a world to where he does know something. Yeah. He knows what he did was stupid but right. He knows what Egg did was understandable but wrong.

And even though he's still trying to figure out his way, he knows he has to fight now in order to save his life and to move on. So the character is a little bit more resolute, desperate in confidence, but still confident in what he has to do. I think the real magic, at least for me,

was I knew the ending what would happen. I knew Stephen Fosway would betray him. I knew Baylor would come out and take up his seventh sword. But in that moment, standing in front of the TV watching to your point? Yeah, I was standing. That's how much it meant, bro. When he's giving the speech, are there no

true knights among you? I was like, yeah, boy! I was like, yeah, I'm like, come on, talk to him. And then the doors open and the game of their own music come on and I'm cheering like, Ron our testes hit that three against Boston, baby. I'm like, let's go! Come on!

I will take Sir Duncan's side. Are you telling, are you kidding me, man? That's what it's about. That's what it means, bro. That meant something to me, man. Wow. One of the best episodes of TV I've seen in a long time. I don't know if there's like a rolling list,

but definitely the best episode TV this year so far. I love this episode. No, it was incredible. At the end of this episode, this is the first time where I'm like, if this does everything, if this sticks the landing like this, I feel a 12 coming on for me on the midnight. Truly, this is shaping up to be

one of my favorite Game of Thrones things. Well, it does ever. Game Changer is the only thing. doesn't have yet. Well, that's the thing, though. That's the only thing it doesn't have. I was Steve. This is the thing, though. Like, this is, I'm not mad at it. I'm not mad at the take. I am not saying that, I am not saying that this is, like, a guaranteed 12, but like, this has the momentum to me of, like, this is, this is how I felt after, uh, never more than 12 in one way out of and or's arc came out, where I'm like, this is something fucking different. And

I've loved this show because it's done a lot of things that Game of Thrones never does. And, and, And it mainly involves giving me hope and characters that I love. And this is something now that I am completely head over heels in love with. I think seeing the performances now are fully realized. I think eggs, like acts of like sorrow and subservience to dunk, even when he is that powerful prince that has every bit of power over him as much as he can, he could have been righteous. He could have been angry. but he's very apologetic and sorry and he's not a prince in that moment

because he is with his knight and wants to learn from him and genuinely cares for him and the evolution that comes from everything that has come from the end of this episode to now I was fully, fully bought in. I can't agree more. This is more of the best episodes.

You said something. When I watched this episode, I was like, oh, I am getting the and-or feeling even though this show isn't Andor. I think when like in our space, when we watch that, a lot of the things that people celebrated about that show were the fact that it's so detailed

and it's showing us sides of the world that we hadn't necessarily seen in Star Wars. But I think sometimes a lot of the praise, it was praising the complexity of the story. And for me, this gave me the feeling of Andor because the story is so simple. This is like a, this to me is like a perfect cheeseburger. is like, yo, like not the craziest stuff storywise is happening, but I care so much about the

characters. The stakes are so believable. The acting is so just good. I was like, oh, we can still do this type of storytelling where it doesn't have to be an hour. It doesn't have to be fucking massive. It doesn't have to cost almost a billion dollars. You can just throw really, really good characters and really good writing on the screen. And I can believe in a world again. So a couple of things here that were interesting to me, specifically about the episode. One is a payoff. I want to make sure the audience catches you.

I know everybody caught it. But when the theme from the original show comes in as Baylor arrives out, right? So I say two things about Baylor in that scene. Number one, they groomed you guys for that moment. Now, I want to say something else. We could have said a little better. It's groomed. It's groomed. Now, do you

say groom as in this was some sort of like deception? Like they took one over on us? Well, I'm telling you guys, that, yeah, I used the term that I wanted, groomed. G-work. Okay. What they did was you guys saw it in the beginning of the first episode where that comes in, and then they subverted, the theme comes in and they subverted with him taking a shit, right?

Two things. It's very interesting. Number one, that is an admission, thematically, in the first episode that this is not the same Game of Thrones that you are watching. You were watching a different Game of Thrones and lighter take on it, a different type of take on it where the unexpectedness of the first show

is different. And that show, you never knew who was going to die. That was part of it. This show, you never know what absurd thing is going to happen. That's a new thing that we're setting you up for. So the old show, all of the stuff is like, hey, you never know who's going to get killed,

like what terrible thing is going to happen. And the new shows, you never know when a laugh is going to jump in. When Baylor rides out, they run the theme, but they run it, like, seriously. Because you're in the same world. You're in a new world, but you're in the same world. The stakes that they set for the original watching, the original feeling that you have for that show where everything was so serious and so earnest, they took three or four episodes taking that from you, and then they gave it back to you.

They said, hey, just to let you know, heroism is still important, valor is still important, struggle is still important. All the same things that exist in the world of Westrose that you had seen before that exist in this world. You just hadn't been focused on them as much. Something else that Baylor's character is at this point demonstrating to me at least, is that every time you look at him,

it looks like he's internally struggling with what's happening. In the scene where Arian is the kid's name, right? In the scene where he decides how to have his child by combat, his father is straight up disappointed in his son because he knows that his son is a coward. Right. So he's straight up disappointed. He's looking at him and in real time,

he's dealing with the fact that his son is number one conniving because he goes back to an ancient form of trial by combat. You can't even be the hedge knight. You can't even beat a hedge knight. Like, why don't you just take up your sword and go beat this guy, right? But so number one, he's like, he sees him for who he is, and it's happening in real time.

If you look at Baylor, Baylor is like, he's annoyed by this. He's disgusting. He's disgusted. He's like, what the fuck? He's like, all the bullshit that you normally see in Game of Thrones. What he would want to do is be like, you know what? Go ahead.

Get out of here. You punched the prince, but he deserved it. Get the fuck out of here. But he knows he can't do that. He knows that's out of his power. It's out of his power because of tradition, because of thousands of years, just to be like, I know in my heart that what you did was right, apologize to the prince and go on.

He can't do that. But what he can do and what he does do is decide that he is going to be a part of setting it right with his own sword. So not as a prince, as a knight and as a man. But even when he says it, look at how Bertie Cavill plays it. Look how the actor plays it. Even when he says it, he doesn't go, I am here and I will fight with Sir Duncan.

He goes, I'm Sir Duncan's sword. He did what he was supposed to do. I will fight with him. He's even still in there He's like I got to do this There's no way I can't do it But he almost throws the lines away

It's not reluctance though He's not like a no no no no he's not reluctant Yeah it's more of the fact that he's forced to be in this position It's not is not reluctant it is he's resolute He's committed But at the same time This entire thing Is kind of bullshit to him

Yeah he's speaking lowly, but he's speaking softly, but as a prince and as a knight. So what he's doing is very meaningful. That moment, him riding on the horse is going to, like, you know, there's going to be a big thing. But I think a moment that is really important

is when it's just him, dunk and egg, when he brings him into the chamber, and he's like, he talks to Egg and he's like, you called him, you didn't, you should have called me, right? And I think that matters because if, like, egg, he knows what

I don't know if he knows exactly what Aryan did to egg, but he knows that Aryan sucks, right? And if Aryan was doing something bad and he went to dunk instead of me, that must mean something. Yes. Right? And they don't say that explicitly,

but you can see it on the actor's face. I forget his name, but he's doing, he did an incredible job this episode because he's, like, you see in his eyes where he's like, you called him instead of me, that's got to stand for something. That's got to mean something. And then so then when he rides out on the horse at the end,

you're like, of course. Even if you don't, if you know, if you don't know, he was always going to do that. Because to your point, those two scenes together, he just looks at his nephew like, this is terrible, this is awful. Somebody's got to stand up and do the right thing. That's what Dunk stands for.

I'm going to stand with him. There earned moments, I think, is something that you had mentioned before when it comes to the theme music that comes here. Like, we have the joke that, like, we subvert the expectations of when, like, he takes a shit in the hedge to the, the theme song and then when that is reflected again,

it's when he's about to face off against all of his foes. It's also, like, in my opinion, an example of the like capital F filmmaking that like is subtle but very good in this show where not only is I think that the theme illustrating that he's not ready for the heroism that is going to befall upon him later on in the show. So we're not going to give you that heroism in the form of music. We're going to give that in like a little shit comedy moment. an earned moment to me

looks like in the filmmaking in this episode is definitely when the younger Fossoi is being knighted and I would have thought that oh this is going to be an amazing chance for dunk to knight someone to take up arms in the cause that is reflected in him but no it's done by

our guy the elder Barathean Lino Barathean the laughing storm fucking awesome and as he's saying the words of like you know I charge you to be brave I charge you to be just and all of these things. It's shot with Dunk from above as if he is being knighted in these moments and he looks up to the sky thinking of Penny Tree

and in those moments you see Penny Tree's visage just being like, you got this? I mean, Don't know how to do it. No, he doesn't know how to do it. But it's those exact same thoughts as if he is being knighted and it's reflecting down from the heavens to Dunk to Burrude to Burr.

Arathian to Fossaway. And it's so beautiful. And it's something that, like, I was absolutely captivated by. And this is why I'm like, okay, we got something really precious. I mean, I think the genius of this show is these two characters, not just Dunkin Egg, but Dunk and Baylor had been on a collision course where it is like the reason that they're subverting the song is because dunk does it, dunk is someone who doesn't understand the Game of Thrones world.

Like we understand what the Game of Thrones world is He does it and when he's making the speech And then the Lord stands up and farts He's like he's imploring he's just like What have the seven kingdoms become? What do we stand on if we don't even believe in chivalry And like defending the innocent We're savages and you have someone like Baylor

Who completely knows what this world is But still believes in knighthood And I found it so interesting that Both of these people collide at a time where can they really change these people's thoughts? Or is it more so, hey, we

have to stand on this thing, even if we know we might save Dunst's life. But are we changing the kingdom? Probably. He's like, is Westeros too far gone at this point? I mean, well, Baylor is going to be king.

So, Baylor is Baylor in this situation is interesting to me because he's, to me, setting a standard. And, you know, he's riding out there and he's fighting against his family.

And so he's setting a standard. Everybody else in what they're doing, it has to do with what their beliefs are and how they want their society to operate. Like what, like, Egg, we, egg has been abused by his older brother.

Yeah, right. A lot of even what he's done has been in vengeance, right? He's been abused by his older brother, the worst of it that he's gotten from being somebody that's powerless, even as a Targaryen, from his older brother, who is bigger, who is stronger,

as a different place with their dad, powerless, right? Dunk is trying to familiarize himself, ingratiate himself into this world using the pomp and the circumstance and all of the ritual and the tradition that he thinks that the world is made up of. Baylor has to rule them. So whatever he does actually sets a standard.

But my question is does it? Absolutely. My thing with Baylor is, I do think you're right in that it sets a standard. But in the first, I think it was either the first or second episode, he's looking at the people that are going to come after him. He's just like one of your sons is a fucking drunk.

The other one is a coward. It is like, Egg is probably the only one that he can look at and probably is why he's so disappointed is like, this motherfucker has a chance. And I think it's interesting that Baylor, the only one of them, who has black hair, is like, stands for knighthood, stands for all of these things that you want in a king. But he probably realizes, like, the entire system is so corrupt. Well, I mean, but the reason why he stands for those things, in my opinion, and the reason why he stands for them not reluctantly, but the reason why he stands for them not reluctantly, but the reason why he stands for him, not reluctantly, but the reason why he's why he stands for, but the reason why. why he stands for them against his family is because to him, those things matter more. He's been fair this entire time. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Not even fair. He's been magnanimous. He's been what you would want, a king or somebody that is in power to be. He looked at Dunk, remembered some things about Dunk, not quite sure about the validity of Dunk's knighthood or anything, but literally looks at him. in my opinion it goes, well, why shouldn't he be a night? I know a bunch of nights.

Nights ain't shit. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, you want your chance to be a knight? You want your chance to exist in this world as this thing. Why shouldn't you get the chance? Yeah. He literally think about, because when it's just him and Donk,

I was like, wait, why would Baylor tell Dunk to do a trial by combat? He even is like, like, that is, to me, I'm just like, that's his nephew. He knows his nephew doesn't have hands. Yeah. So he's essentially sending his nephew to death or about to embarrass him and run up a bunch of people. But he's like... Well, he's just trying to... I think he's trying to save his life just at first because they would have a trial.

He'd be caught guilty immediately. It'd be over. Right. The only way to survive or even, like, give yourself a chance is trial by combat. And then Arian goes and gets because he's a coward. He's like, oh, trial by seven. And that complicates all... Also, though, he knows he's wrong.

Yeah. So the reason why he is... searching for a way to make this fair is because there is something about the character that he is sick of this shit winning. He's a prince. First of all, his history

and his father's history probably plays into this, right? Well, you know, Joe, Joe, Jamie explainer. Yeah. You're talking about the Blackfire Rebellion? Yeah, well, not just the Blackfire Rebellion, but the rebellion is one thing,

but the fact that his father was a good king was, rejected by his grandfather, who was a fucking terrible king. Right. Right. Who saw more of himself in the children that he fathered outside of the line because those children looked more royal.

They looked more Targaryen. They looked. It wasn't about their makeup or anything real. It was about cosmetics. Baylor, to me, in this show, is sort of rejecting the cosmetic aspect of, of knighthood, the cosmetic aspect of royalty, like what do you actually stand about and what's real? So when he comes out there, he goes,

hey, he was protecting the week. I'm with that. Even if my family is not. So even if my family is not, that's why I say he's sitting in the standard. He goes, that is what I am about. Which brings a question, though, like, if you guys are maker, right,

and your son was out there acting a fool, and now you've got to trial by 70, you know, put your shield on, put your fit on, and go fight for your son, even though like, you know he had dummy, you know he was like probably in the wrong. I actually feel sorry for Maker. I don't.

I don't. I'll tell you why I feel sorry for him. He is an interesting character in that, like, that's a profound question. That's like Brian Cranston from Your Honor or something like that. Like, that's a profound question. He is, all of this stuff, he's so indoctrinated into the way things have always been that he's surprised by the cowardice of his son. Yeah. He's surprised by how sniveling he is.

He's surprised by how double dealing he is. If you watch everything that's happening, he's looking like, did I raise this guy? He's like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, how do you even know about that? No, I thought it was a very, very good shot of just how annoying Aryan is, breaking the walnuts while everybody's being very, very serious. And his father just like it dawning on him slowly like,

wait, are you like, not only are you a cat, But he sees like his son's wheels turning like, Aaron knows I can't face this guy. Which I'm also like, wait, why can't you? You've had all of the, all of the training. Oh, he doesn't know. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Be clear.

He doesn't know that he can't beat Dunk. We've never seen Dunk fight. He knows Dunk is big and Dunk got a lick on him. It's just beneath him. Yeah. Like, oh, oh, no, it's, it, he is. It's not, Dunk is not a worthy adversary. He's a coward, don't get me wrong.

Oh, like, he doesn't deserve to fight him. Yeah, he's like, like this whole thing is not worth my sweat. He's a coward, don't get me wrong. I don't think he's trying to fight him at all. I think he doesn't think Dunk can get seven guys. And if you don't get seven, you die immediately. I think he also, this speaks to his cruelty. I think he wants to embarrass Dunk.

I think it's like, hey, if I have to go out here anyway, I'm going to take this 6,000-year-old ritual to almost twist the knife and almost make your death even worse. Because, like, that's what I think is so just interesting about dunk. Because he goes through everything. He's angry in the beginning of the episode. He's distraught when he's like, I can't get six other lords on my side.

And then by the end, he's like, if I'm going to die, he's to stand on something. So let's be specific about the character here. We saw him in the joust already. What did he do? lowered his little down. He did not compete

in that joust in an honorable way. His character to me I haven't read anything more about this is the idea of the subversion of honor. It's the idea that

you can get so powerful that the rules do not apply to you. And the very notion that the rules do apply to you, you bothers you. Like the very notion that you should be held to any type of a standard that that bothers you.

It's like you're insulted by someone saying that any old school old-timey ritual is even something that should be, that you should have to like adhere to. Right. Because you're, I'm a dragon. I'm a Targary. And so every single time he is asked to just do the thing, he finds a way out of it. He cheats a little bit or he goes into an old obscure rule because this world has been so oriented around him that there's always something he can do to avoid accountability. And Baylor just goes, no, you're fighting today.

But let's not skip one thing. I thought it was so funny. Egg and Dary it seems so tired. They're like, this motherfucker think he a dragon. He's crazy. I was like, I started like, they seem so done with him as a civil. They're like, bro, he's off. He's fucking rock.

That dude, man. So we didn't mention it. I think actually we cut it out of last episode. But Darren was the first guy we meet, the Targaryen we meet in the show. That's not sure. He meets egg outside. But he says him, he talks to him in the end. He's like, I dreamt of you.

Right? And we're not supposed to know who that is. But that is Maycar's oldest son, Darren the drunken, aka Darren the Dreamer. Right. Aryan Bride Frame the second the third son who they sent off Citadel they talked about on Talk Thrones

so I'm going to talk about it right here is Maister Amin that we meet in Game of Thrones the old guy who becomes like one of John's homies is the third son of Makar from this show which is interesting

I mean I will say that was the actor who played him I had already seen it online I'm like oh yo that's my boy you got to come out of that. Yeah that's what's He plays that really well, by the way. It's an incredible thing to see, like, a character. How old is that character?

Oldish you? I mean, at this, I mean, egg in the books is like 10, so he's probably like 13 to 12. How old is it about time we meet him in Game of Thrones? Oh, 70s. No, 70s. He's in his hundreds. Yeah, he's got to be. He's in his hundreds.

Oh, shit. Yeah, no. Sorry. I keep forgetting that this is like a hundred years prior. It's like 90 to 100. So, like, yeah, he's probably like in his like either. late 90s or early hundreds when it's how we need them.

But it's always interesting to see like the character taken on by another actor and then seeing what personality that he brings to that because he's not like, yeah, he's a piece of shit for lying on Dunk's name and to just like snivel his way out of it but I like that he is kind of the middle ground, the positive

plus middle ground of those two brothers to like connive their way out of something for their own gains but then immediately know that they fucked up and they got to make it right in some way. That boy was like, hey look, I got to to stand with my brother. Yeah.

Just hit me on the head. I'm gonna lie down. Don't worry about me, big dog. I got to do what I got to do. At the same time, I'm not trying to get involved. Yeah, yeah. A reason why the character is not totally detestable is because the lie he tells is off-screen. Yes.

Right. Right. So we don't see the moment where he tells that lie. Yeah. So if we saw the moment where he, he's asked about that and he doesn't tell the truth. He tells the people who might have missed it, he tells his dad and, and Darren, or Baylor, sorry, that they absconded away, like he stole egg. Yeah, he stole egg and cheese.

So we don't see him tell that lot. So that's something that happens in their little family, whatever, whatever, blonde, dragon people and all of that shit. Aliens. Aliens. Well, every time we see him, he is in really brutal and embarrassing truth. Yeah. Every time we see him, we see him in total admittance of his cowardice.

We see him struggling and dealing with. his alcoholism. We see him tortured by his dreams. We see authenticity and vulnerability. And so even when he looks at him and he goes, like,

my lie might have cost you your life. And if so, I'm sorry. I felt bad for him. Like even though it's terrible, I felt bad for him. I was like, I mean, asshole, true. But once again,

even as a Targaryian, just a subject, just a subject to all of this stuff, to all of these dynamics. It's crazy how bad, like it's not like one to one. I'm not going to say it's one to one. But it's crazy how you can feel so bad for Darren

for, for what he did. And on the flip side, be like, yo, Aryan sucks. I hate Aryan forever. It's terrible. I think it's because it's very important

that we don't see him tell that lie to Van's point because a lot of the things that a normal Game of Thrones Fair would do if these episodes were longer is that we would probably see those stories. We would probably see the insights into that family that either make us a bit more sympathetic or a lot more detestable to us. And maybe if we did have, see him say that lie and then see him admit to dunk that like, hey, I'm sorry about that. Maybe we think that's bullshit. And it's very

important that maybe we do feel a little sympathetic towards him because this entire story is based around dunk and all the people that immediately interact with him. And if he's not in that room, we're not in that room with him. And to see that, like, like all of these characters in the presence of Dunk, become honest, become the thing that is constantly challenging the Game of Thrones formula as usual, that's what makes him so important.

I mean, but also, I gotta give my man credit. He was like, yo, don't come outside. He's like, look. I'm trying to see the future. You're gonna do great. I think you'll be good. I'm taking the over. Dunk's so funny too because Dunk really like had a knife through stone.

I'm like, bro, you're already in trouble for it. I know. They can't throw them twice. That was cold. You know what I appreciate about the Game of Thrones people is they can, they can hear like the worst shit for them in the future and just move on with their day. Yeah. If I was walking down the street and somebody pulled me to the side and went, a ball of flames.

I would be like, hey, let's go in here and talk about it. What do you mean by that? It's a coffee bean right around the corner. I got an hour. But you have to trust. Do you trust the source? Like, what are you doing to make sure that like, oh, okay. It'd be one thing for, like, the fortune teller lady,

ah, you know, she in the street, whatever. Nah, hell not. But if the blonde hair alien dude was like, hey, man. See, that's just because you're classes. That's crazy that you just said that. So the lady walked up to you and say, you're not going to listen. That could be an unknown targary.

The guy with the good bone structure saying that you're going to listen to him. The fortune teller at the fair who we're telling anybody in the old fortune, right, versus a people who have like. Yeah, but I'm saying, And maybe this is just me knowing the history. What do you have against working class fortune tellers?

Hmm. It's not that. Y'all hear this? You know what I have? Y'all hear how problematic this is? There's a history of the, I can't remember his name, but the person who first, the doom of Valeria, right? And they moved from Valeria to Dragonstone because they had a dream.

Because of a prophecy. Yeah, yeah. These are things that happen in this lineage. If I know a guy who has dissented for people who, right, but you don't know that. Dunk doesn't know that, but I know that. Yeah. So if I'm saying if somebody told me that the dude. Well, people know about...

You're a Targary... Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. You're a Targary and DeKrodder. You're a Dragera. Hold on. Jomey the Dragon Writer.

Joe me the Dragon Rider. You're a Dragon Rider. You're a Dragon Rider. You're a Targary and Draggera. Again, it's based on facts in quotations. Anything, nothing's real. But if I had... If I knew somebody who had a history

of telling the truth or telling prophecies... You want... The fortune tellers is crazy. Still go. Stilgar is crazy. Listen to the gai. Listen to the gai. He is too proud of the

I'm not listening to the lady outside. Again, it could be any old stranger. Hey man, you go down. If somebody walked up to you in the street and was like, hey, man, you go down the fire. We have to talk about it. But if they're going to get a discussion

for me, I'm going to take them to the side. I'll be like, hey, let's have a, I'll take you to battle tonight. Tell me what you know. I want to know. Can we talk about the fossil way? real quick. Man,

fuck that elder false away. Man, I got to talk about my apples, man. There's a, there's a,

there's a, something else the show did that was really awesome is the elder Foss away when he was talking if you didn't know,

when he was, if you didn't know how this was going to end up, like how this was going to happen. When he was talking to dunk, you got the feeling that maybe what he was saying could be

genuine based upon the fact that the last time we had seen the false ways talking about the Targaryians. They were very upset. They were very upset. So this guy is an asshole. But the question would be, what would he be willing to risk in order to halfway depose or take a chunk out of the ass of the Targaryian dynasty? Right.

And then you find out what? That there is still something that allows these people to rule. A lot of this show is doing something. The House of the Dragon is almost the opposite of House of the Dragon. House of the Dragon, you're completely in total understanding of why the Targaryians have voice around. Yeah. There's no doubt about it. All right.

Shut the fuck up. Shut up. I'll burn your face off. Okay. All right. My dragon has a cool name. I'll fly them to your place. Burn your face off.

Like, it makes that civil war more compelling than it's essentially two nuclear power nations going against each other. And they don't even realize that they're destroying the central source of their power. This is different, though. This show is like us watching why they have some of the power that they still have,

watching them come to turns with the fact that they're not the same way that they used to be, that they used to be. Darien says, hey, we used to ride on the backs of dragons. It's hard to imagine that now. It's hard to think about that now. Like something that we know to be so true. We see it in the Game of Thrones show

in the future. we see it in the past. It's hard to think about that. Even Tanzo, when she kills the dragon, I'm like, she's never seen a dragon before. So to her, she's like, what are you doing? She thinks you could walk up with a knife and stab one and they kill it. But so when, when, but we, then we see how they're able to continue to dominate the world.

They can give you stuff. They still are rich. Lands and titles. They still are powerful. Lands and titles. There are still people who aren't as interested in the, fact that they're poor rulers, that they're terrible rulers,

that they are oftentimes not just irresponsible, but psychotic. There are people that are not interested in that. There are people that are still interested in what they can gain. And I would implore people to look around your world right now. Look around

your world right now and then ask yourself like how that sits with you, how a news guy could become the Secretary of Defense how a podcast guy could become I don't give a fuck

how y'all feel about this I'm just going to say the thing how a podcast guy could become the deputy director of the FBI and what it means for people

to sort of subvert what they've done for grotesqueries because there is something in it for them that they never thought that they could have

you could be knighted by somebody and made the Secretary of Defense or the director of the FBI or the DNI head or the director of national intelligence. That person can knight you and those lands and titles are meaningful in this show, but that's also how these powerful people.

That's also how they get the fealty of people like that in this actual world. That is what actually happens, no matter how poor the ruler is and no matter how bad that person is for the state of the world at large. Well, going off that, the thing that I'm interested with a night of the seven kingdoms and how it ends is this was in Game of Thrones always where it's like honor in this world was almost beside the point where it's like almost honorable men, honorable women would die whenever you would see an act of it, especially like after that first season, you're like, oh, whenever somebody stands up for themselves, for other people is a true night. Usually they die and bad things happen. And I'm wondering watching this show Can it have its cake and eat it to? Where it's like are we like is this a type of show where it's like

Dunk and egg will be rewarded for being true knights Because that's not something like even the Game of Thrones away ended John had to go past the wall right For killing the love of his life for committing genocide It's like this it never shit does not end well usually If you think this story has an happy ending then you're watching the wrong thing. And that's where I'm usually afraid

that a Game of Thrones thing will not only break my heart but get me angry at the idea. Because this show is actually kind of starting to promise me something that this level of idealism will be rewarded in some way. I love the idea that the temptation

of those falls are always ever present. I like the idea that in the next episode we could possibly see Dunk subvert his honor just to win. and how he deals with that choice. I genuinely don't know what's going to come. I like the idea that that isn't going to be compromised in the end and that can hopefully be a happy, warm, fuzzy ending for me to love,

but I don't know. You know what I like for heroes, especially as I get older? I don't like happy endings anymore because it's bullshit. I like endings that are... I like endings that make sense, but more to the point. I like the demonstration of what it takes to actually make a difference. How can I put that better?

So Star Wars versus Andor, right? If you look at it, the original trilogy, the original trilogy, there's catharsis between father and son. They take the empire down. We celebrate. There are all kinds of complexities that come after that. knows complexities get explored in all different types of war. But for the moment, good beats evil.

It's very straight up, right? For most people. Even Vader dies, but he doesn't really die. Vader does die. Anakin Skywalker is born again. We see his force goes, right? I think I'm past that. And the reason why I'm past it is because of what I know has happened to real heroes.

I want people to know more with these stories is the price that you will pay in order to remain who you are or be something greater than who you are. And then I want stories to investigate that price. Whether or not the price is worth it, number one, for a lot of people. And I want people to see really how heroes are treated.

But isn't, I mean, I don't want to, I mean, it's a little cynical, but isn't that why stories exist in the first place? so that because if you, because to your point, you can just look outside and see that. You can look out the window. I disagree. Let me tell you what I mean.

Stories are supposed to be like, you know, not real. So you get that happy. Well, sure. I disagree. Well, because take something, it takes something, and this is why I think for these type of shows,

Game of Thrones, Star Wars, properties that did start having very real world connections to wars being fought. It takes something like Board of the Rings. I think it's good that Frodo is broken by the end of that story.

Like, it's a happy ending in terms of, like, they get to return to the Shire, but the Shire is different. And it's like the hero who had to have this burden and fight is not the same when he returns, similar to Andor, where it's like in real wars, in real battles, whether you have a machine gun in your hand

or you were taken to the streets. Most heroes die. Most heroes are not seen as heroes in their time. Right. You know, they are deemed terrorists. They are revolution. There are all these things. And I do think that the best,

stories when you're depicting warfare, when you're depicting what it takes to stand up to fascism or whatever, shows the real price of what it means to be a hero. Because for Dunk, Dunk, dunk is standing in front of all of Westrose being like, do you guys believe in anything anymore? Do you stand on anything? And no one does except Baylor. And I'm like, that to me is more true to life than just saying like, hey, like, you're a hero and you're going to ride off into the sun. And I think with what we talk about, like, the ideas of like happy endings, we could probably interrogate more so the storyteller and what they want to intend. When we think about like what heroes get and stand up against, it really ends up being what does this storyteller think this

hero deserves at the end of all of that. Did they deserve to die because it's a reflection of the world that they inhabit or they deserve a happy ending because that heroism should be rewarded? It's kind of up to the storyteller because they have their own agenda as to what they want to say about the world around them and what they make, which is probably why people love Game of Thrones so much because it's a bit more of a reflection of the real world. The power corrupts absolutely, the people that are usually standing up for something great,

get cut down. And this is something that I like to see happen. I don't disagree, but... I don't think I'm saying that right. Let me tell you what I'm... I'm fumbling around. Let me tell you what I mean overall. Is that, like, heroes protect people in these stories.

That's very important. Right? Right. There's a perversion that's there that I see the older I get. It's because most heroes that we get in story are so special. They're so special. They're special to a degree that it makes us feel like those heroes don't need protection. Like so Luke Skywalker is a once-in-a-generation forced-tack. All right.

He's got all the force potential of his father. All he really needs is for someone to see that. Boom, it's out of here. That's our hero. Pretty impeachable both by what he does and by who he is. Which is why when I talk about Jedi, actually it's my lack of, it's my inability to let that character grow. That's holding me back from embracing the character in the way that it is in Jedi.

it's a realistic, because like to me, when I saw the last day, I was like, oh, it makes sense that Luke Skywalker, after toppling the empire at the end of all this, to see it rise again and to realize like not only did it rise again, but I have a,

I am responsible for one of the most powerful people in Kylo Ren. I'm like, story-wise, that makes sense, but to your point, that is a hard fill to swallow because like that's what, when you grow up, that's what you realize, like, I fought for all this and the cycle keeps continuing. So, Yeah, I mean, getting, kind of bringing this back to kind of what it is that we're talking about.

Yeah, to your point. But what I'm saying is this, you know, in this story is really, there's Dunk and what Dunk is doing. But what Dunk was really asking for in this episode is the world to help protect him, which is something that we do not do, right? We don't protect our heroes. people stand up, they rise up, they fight fascism, fascistness, fascism, fascism, fascism, fascism, fascism on our behalf, they fight racism on our behalf,

the powers that be blow their head off, right, emiserate them, impoverish them, take everything that they want, change the narrative on them, and we move on to find the next hero, to sacrifice for our freedom, then to move on again. And what I am more interested, I think, now is stories that litigate our responsibility to heroism. Like our responsibility to the people that put things on the lie for us. Our responsibility to the people that are lied on, misunderstood, to the people that get chewed up, that people that get spit out. The people that at the end of this thing, you know, the U.S. government,

sent the police into to Fred Hampton to a panther to a panther pad in Chicago and killed a 21 year old man while he slept next to his pregnant wife

what do you owe them like you talk about whatever fuck you want to talk about like what do you owe them like what what like what are you owe them so when I see a lot of this stuff sometimes I feel like

these stories that we've been telling I understand the need for them and we all want to leave feeling good but sometimes it feels like these stories are a part of the way we deal with the fact that we have a responsibility as a collective and as a whole to the person holding the sword

while the entire brigade charges them. Well, I think that's probably no better reflected than Baylor standing with Dunk at the end because he was going to be, like, if they had just done the 1V1, dunk would have been his proxy for his ideals. for Baylor's ideals. Yeah, well, but Baylor...

But the fact that it's like, okay, now you actually got to stand with this guy. Are you going to do it? Baylor is like, to me, Baylor is going, you know what? I don't know if this guy is a hero. I don't know anything about him beyond the fact that he did the fucking right thing.

Yeah. And that's it. And I'm the prince. And I'm the crown prince. This is my family. All of this stuff. Set it all aside. All of this stuff.

But if we don't protect that, we don't really have a world. We don't have a society. And maybe we don't, right? Maybe we don't. So him as king, him as ruler, him as person. So now when I watch endings, I don't look for a happy ending. I look for a complicated one. Right.

I look for one that says, I saved the day, but you know what, along the way I acquired a drinking problem. Right. Like, you know what I'm saying? I look for one that says, I saved the day, but I wasn't a perfect person. I mean, yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, I saved the day, yeah. That's probably Luke. Everybody I know that is out there saving the day for people, man, check in with them. They're going through hell. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, check in with them.

They, they're going through hell. So I appreciate the Game of Thrones world, the Game of Thrones world for that, Because they never let you off the hook. No. With, like, and really, to be real with you, none of the high fantasy people do. The higher the fantasy, to me, normally,

the more complicated the ending for the character. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Like, they don't let you off the hook just by going, hey. I don't know. The first of the first of the movies, they were chilling with the evening. That's not high fantasy.

I would, not a high fantasy, you feel, allow me a little bit of latitude. I write this book series as a child. called Animorphs, and it's about these six kids. Let's go! You touch an animal, they can turn animals, they have to fight this alien invasion, whatever.

The last book, spoilers for Animorphs, by the way, they have to go fight again. There's something that happens in space. They're getting a spaceship. One of them dies, right? And they have to deal with it. And then the last book is them going off to space

to go fight another war, and then the book ends. And I'm 12 years old, and I'm like, this is dumb, this is stupid. I want to see what happens, what happened to my guys, whatever. And then, like, years flashed, and I'm, like, rereading the books. I'm, like, reading the last book again. And I tweet the author, K.A. Applegate.

I'm like, yo, why did you end the movie, a little book like that? What'd you do? She responded to me. She's like, that's how it goes, man. Wars don't end. Damn. These things happen. These kids, like, fought wars when they were, like, from middle school to high school.

They were teenagers, right? They don't know anything else but to fight. This is how they live. This is their life. A terrible life. That's a terrible life. Some of them, they lost their friends. And all they know now is war.

And that's probably all they will know. And that's why it ends like that. And like, as an adult, I understood that. But as a kid, I'm like, yo, what the hell? And so it really just, I think what I'm saying is like, these stories, I don't know how they'll resonate. Like, if that's how you wanted it, if you made, you're president of Hollywood tomorrow.

And that's how all the movies had to end. I don't know how that would resonate like in truth like with everybody but I think there is a there is like especially in this moment right now it is important to be like guys these things like

they harm people forever yeah I hear you I think it's important for me before we get out here a quick story about the movie don't remember that movie to breakup with Vince Vaughn yeah and Jen

yeah you remember that movie I've seen one of the most profound lines I've ever heard in my life For Christmases though like he says he says he says what am I doing? Being fucking awesome. Yeah.

Coal housing. What are you doing? Being awesome? Betty on the kick drum. Yeah. So that movie is about a breakup. Yeah. Right.

No, it's not. At the end of that movie, there's a tact-on scene at the end of it, a scene of Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Aniston walking past each other on the street and them having a moment where it looks like they might get back together. But you don't know. Why is that scene in the movie?

because they tested the movie and people were unhappy with the fact that they don't end up together. A bunch of divorced people on their third marriages that can't take the reality of the fact that sometimes breakups are funny and sometimes people end up

in this type of traction that don't exist. What I'm saying now is the older I get, I'm more interested in exploring the reasons why two people can't make it work than exploring the fantasy that those two people are going to break up and then have a chance encounter where they get back together. Sure it happens. Sure

it happens. What's the percentage of people in your life who spun the block in it end well, though? It never ends well. But having said that though, I'm not getting necessarily cynical about Oh, Jomi. I'm not being necessarily... I mean, as a serial block spinner, it's not

worked for me. Some people. Jomey is a cereal. Jomey is a serial block spinner. All I'm saying is I appreciate a little salt now. I appreciate sometimes somebody saying, you know what, this person was the hero of this story. They are forever transformed.

This person is the hero of this story. This is what it costs. Like, because it's going to cost. Y'all going to have to not go to work. Y'all going to have to general strike. All of this Disney shit got you waiting for the next person that's going to fucking save you. is you and it's always been you.

Yeah, fuck it. All right, let's go. Let's get out of you. I'm sick of this shit. Well, before we get out of here, we're not going to dress the fact that his shirt says Beach Goons on it? It's a band.

The Beach goons? You be going in at the beach? Actually, not only do it say beach goons, it got little splatter marks on it. That's crazy. Wow. What's the band? Honestly, I don't know.

It's my brother's shirt. So you just got the your brother got the shirt with the beach goons? Let's see. Let's look up. Let's look up to beach go. The Beach, God damn, Bitcoin going crazy. Steve, that must be bothering you.

I'm not in on Bitcoin, no. Yo, did you see this? Beach Goons. Oh, it's one guy? Oh, my God. Oh, is this a rapper? Beach Goons is a, wait, no. No, Beach Goons is, um, he's from San Diego.

Okay. And this is hit. Without you? Anyone know what's going on with Beach Goons? Seems like members keep changing lots of drama, controversy surrounding getting kicked from tours and venues and stuff like that. Beach Goons is like, I guess I can't.

It doesn't seem like it's one guy. It's a surf. Yeah, my brother is into like waves, that type of. Your brother surfs? Oh, this is like indie. No, Waves is also a rock. Oh, but does your brother surf? No.

He doesn't serve, but he's into surf music? Yeah, like, this is white guy indie music. Yeah, white guy. So it's like, hey, what's the guy that came out? He did a record with Curious George. What was the white boy name? Oh, well, uh, John. Jack Johnson?

Jack Johnson. Jackson, uh, side. Oh, that's a thing. Hey, Jack Johnson. Yeah, I don't know. Jack Johnson, he did a record with Curious George. I remember I saw the record. He did a record with Curious George.

No, he did a song. He was on a weird. It was a movie. That song is good. He didn't do a record where he featured Curious George on that bitch. I don't know if he featured Curious George, but it was definitely for the movie. I don't think he talked. What's the song?

Hold on. Jack Johnson. It's upside down. That was for Curious George? Oh, it was for the Curious George. Oh, it was for the Curious George. George Soundtrack. Man, that was a

man, that was a-in-that shit. That might even... All I remember, I remember the record. All I remember it was a video where Curious George was in that bitch. I thought this nigga had to do the record. You thought Currie's George? I completely forgot that this was for the movie.

It was part of the upside down. That might be the best movie tie-in song ever. It's a great one. Wow. All right. One of. Okay. Okay.

Give me something. Okay. Men in black? Oh, shit. We can't actually say what the number one was. Like, this shit was the, being sung at graduations for that. What?

I believe I can't fly. I don't know. I don't know that. We can't say that. We can't say that. We can't say it. I don't know. I'm not going to pick it,

but like that did damage. That did a lot. It was. I mean, if I could be up there. You got, the Black Panther soundtrack had hits.

Black Panther all of the stars. Sunflower is one of the, Sunflower. Sunflower. What about Wawa West? Wiss. Wow, wow, West. Hey, if we want to talk about ones that are problematic.

Oh, my God, Kiss from a Rose. Kiss from a Rose is one. That's one of my favorite songs. Another problematic one, shake your tail feather. Oh, wow. From bad boys. Oh, my neighbor one, Alia for the Dr. Doolittle. Are you that somebody?

I don't know that that counts. I don't know that counts as Dr. Doolittle. I don't think about Dr. Doolittle when I think about that. In the music video, they have Dr. Dukes. Oh, shit, Paramore to Code. Ooh, yeah, wait, from Twilight. You wasn't on Twilight? I was on Twilight.

I was on Twilight. I didn't know that one as much. But this used to be a thing. Yeah. This usually would be a thing. What about the suicide squad with Rick Ross? What about... Oh, no, no, wait, imagine you're not.

Hey, hey, what about Michael McDonald? Art. Lose yourself? Oh, shit. Lose yourself. That don't count. That don't count. Wait, why don't do that count?

I don't feel like lose yourself. I don't feel like lose yourself. That's not count. Literally count. It got an Oscar. What are you talking about? Wait, wait, wait, what does that trick count?

Yeah. Oh, fuck, Hart will go on. Titanic. Oh, that's it. Can I tell you something? Can I tell you something? I don't know that it counts if it's like a song in the movie, like for the movie. Yeah, but it wasn't like an, like you can't count Purple Rain because that was an album that had a film attached to it.

See, that's, I look at 8 Mile as being Eminem's Purple Rain. I mean, that's not true. Are you saying that if the movie is centered around music, that doesn't count versus a song that just happens to be a file album, though. There's the soundtrack, but there's no album. I will say a soundtrack is different from like hustle and flow. They are making the songs from that in the movie. I get it. But what I'm saying is in this case with M&M, like when you do a, when I'm talking about these tie-in songs, I think this is another thing that's different.

When I'm talking about the tie-in songs, I'm talking about the name of the song is Men and Black. Right, and then the song is Mended Black. The name of the song is Wow, Wild West. Okay, yeah, yeah. The record label literally went to them and be like, hey, yo, we need a song for the movie. And then they pop demon hunters, golden, that don't count. I mean, no, first of all of these records count. When I think about all these records count, because, like, even the Michael McDonald's song,

the name of the song isn't running scared, right? But, like, all of these songs count, but, like, there is something that's, like, very on the nose. I believe I can fly. He's talking about Jordan. And it's out of the butt where Rashabakas. Oh, it's off the ball. That nigga joined. They say you could fly.

I got a record. He's like, I got a record. And then he made an inspirational song. They didn't even pitch him. He just went to him. I don't know. They sung that at graduations for years. Oh, yeah.

It's like, and then, y'all, trigger warning, we talked to them. about R. Kelly here. Then... I apologize. Then he tried to spin the block and make an inspirational talk about Gotham City.

Oh, yeah. A city of justice. A city of love. This nigga was right through... It was right through the hood and the Batmobile. I'm like, yo, this isn't even too much Batman for me.

What this nigga hold on, man? I should have known something else. I was like, no normal dick a nigga nigga will put the battle pill in the hood. Jesus. It's like I'm watching it. I'm like, you know, the song is not a, I mean, you know, the guy was good at song.

Right. So the song is not, but I was like, this is that I believe I can fly. That shit is about Jordan, man. This shit is, he's taking the fact that Jordan jumps and can fly and making a record out of it. It's funny. It's funny. It's funny when you think about it. I'm sorry.

It's funny. That shit is Alea. Too far? Okay, bye. Okay, bye. Jesus Christ. Oh my God, bro. In Saturday.

That's a wrap. This week on the Ring of Verse feed. On Sunday, Salt the Thrones is back with Mal, Joanna, and Chris. No cartoon, Chris. No cartoon, Chris. Returning back to West Rose for Nine of Seven Kingdoms, along with the House of R doing their deep dives there, double-dipping the Nine of the Seven Kingdoms and doing a great job.

More Button Mash is coming as well. More Button Mash. Check out the coverage of Fox. It was a great season of fallout. Very strong. All I saw was a clip of somebody, a sniper on the roof. Bow, killing something. Killing some type of dragon thing or whatever?

It's called a... They had them in the game. Vats. No, no, no, no, no, no. Like the big fucking mutant strong thing that Maximus was fighting it. Maximus takes his armor off to fight it. Oh, the Alperians?

The person that sniping was from the New California Republic. So it's like one of those. big things. It's actually a pretty, pretty great scene and the NCR comes in and at the end of it and stuff like that. Where did you see that at? No, I was just scrolling on Twitter. People's going up for this shit. It's good. It's a good show. Our producer today are Layas and there.

Devin, join me in dinner on socials. Hashtag believe Jomey can fly. All right, all right. All right. Enough. Get me. Fucking enough. That's a shit. Hey, look. The song was about Jordan, bro. That's funny, bro. Before we go,

The idea of somebody from the fucking studio going, yo. Listen, real quick, real quick. We need a fucking crazy record that ties in the fact that Michael can jump and maybe we do this. They had choirs on that shit. Quires on that big. I can run through that open door. And then in the video, Jordan.

Also crazy because I'm just like, you imagine me in this studio, yeah, this is about Mike, but also the Looney Tunes are going to be up. Yeah, you're like, what? And I made a hit. We're not laughing at the record. At the absurdity. We're laughing at the fact that all of this stuff, even like our podcast, this whole podcast, it's two hours about Game with Thrones.

It's funny. It's funny. The 90s was crazy. Just doing anything. I never do it again. Just doing anything. I remember. I used to be, I used to be like working out shooting basketball going,

we're the first, last, and only die the fence against the worst coming in the universe. So don't fear us, dear us, everyone to get nearest. That shit is about the men in black. He comes to bed in black. But that shit, it's a verse in that bitch about the neuralizer. He says, see my noisy cricket get wicked on it. That's a gun from the movie. That's funny, bro.

That's funny. I used to be on that shit. Like, for real, like, spitting that shit like it was a gnaz, nigger. Like, that shit was going up. I thought just based off the Wild Wild West song, I thought that movie was gonna be fire. Oh, man. It kind of was. That movie was worth it for one scene.

We know. Yeah. We know. I looked at it right there. It's never been another one. Not quite like that. All right, man. All right.

All right. Thank you. In the pocket. It's not supposed to laugh. The song about Jordan. The nigga in jail, the song about Jordan is funny. All right, let's go. Sick ass.

All right. Official production from Arjuna Ramka Powell. Chuck, take us out. Dunk is the man. The trial of seven begins soon. And fuck y'all little lightsaber cartoons. Who! It's been Tokyo drift, though.

That's not there. Oh. Keep rolling. Hold on. Before we go, just add this a land right. No, I'm talking about the Tokyo song that they came up with. I don't know what record she's talking about.

What are the ludicrous one from two? Oh, yeah. Oh, fuck, yes. Bum, bam, bam, bha. That is going to hold. I love it. Damn, do, do, dund, dan, dan, dan, dut. What?

What are they? The Tokyo niggas. What are it to them? The terriaki boys. The terriac boys. Oh, yeah, the terriaki boys. What's that name? The terriaki boys.

line. No, it's terriaki boys. There's no way. Hold on. Hold on. Go look it up. No, look at him. No. No. No. No. The terriac. Nah, bro. I can't, I can't fuck with them. I don't think.

That's not right, bro. Terriaki bowl jack in the box popped up. They're the terriaki boys? Boys, yeah. Oh, shit, bro. Play the song. What is he? They're a Japanese supergroup from Yokohama, Japan.

Yeah, man. I never knew that that was their name. Yeah, Terriaki boys. The terriaki boys. They had a moment. Fuck. Like, they was cool. Hell yeah. Is Ilmari, verbal, wise, and Nigo.

One of them's name is Nigo. Wait, wait, wait. Nigo from Babe. Don't do that. Is that, okay, I don't know who this is. Wait, you don't know who Nigo is? I don't know this. I don't know stuff like, oh, he is the, oh, he created a Bay the name.

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