The Ringer-Verse - ‘Agatha’ Episode 5 and ‘Penguin’ Episode 3 Reactions, Plus DC Casting News | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

The Boys are back to give you their thoughts on the newest episodes from both Disney+’s ‘Agatha All Along’ and Max’s ‘The Penguin’ (38:39). But first, the crew discusses the latest casting news from the DC ‘Green Lantern’ show, as well as colorism in casting (12:24). Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Producers: Aleya Zenieris, Jonathan Kermah, and Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I farted next to Alea Well, why did you tell us that? Why did you do that? He was on accident I was like scooching When I thought that like Wait, like you farted recently? Yeah, no, not recently recently

I was talking to Alea You could have like an hour ago You could have kept that to yourself though No, why did you say that? He was mid sentence I was mid sentence And he lifted his leg It's because I was like

You lift like a dog? No, I was adjust Like I was like sat here And like I was adjust Because like you know when like you strain the abdomen And like this This is the craziest own goal I've ever seen. Why are we discussing?

What happened? Oh, you just, oh, you just want a moment. Go ahead, tell us. No, no, I didn't want a moment. No, that's cool. I just felt, are we rolling on this? Yes, we definitely are. He's all stanging.

That's okay. Why would you do? I just feel old. But why, you could have not told us that. You could have not told anybody that. That could have been a moment between you two. No, no, you should be ashamed, but you also shouldn't be proud. I'm not proud.

We're not proud. We're not proud. You smelled it? You smelled it. How bad was it? It was just, it was out of nowhere. It didn't smell. It just sounded back.

It was here too. It was very funny. Yeah. Welcome into the Ringherverse. This is of course the Ringer's nextest podcast for all things fans. We are. Jummi, the Explaner, Dian, you've got questions. He's got answers.

We are Steve the farter almond. Yep. He farted on the lab. Not on. Yeah, she did. Right. We are. Oman Van.

He of the receding researcher of the airline. We are Coke, baby Chuck, the 24-carat closer. Join us today. The Midnight Collective, is Kerm back there? I didn't see him. Yes, he is. Kerm back there. Is it, is it, is Kerm to?

It's just a dark void that we're looking into. A dark boy? In the big booth. Jesus, false. The production booth doesn't have a place. How do we go from chocolate drop to dark boys? Why? Why?

Why do you like this? Hold on for it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Why do you want to say, wait a second, wait a say, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. No your personnel. All the times I say stuff and you get on me, Kerm, you just called you a dark void. You got nothing to say towards it? I'm just done with it, man.

I just know my nickname's going to be something black. That's some soy boy shit. That's some sort of black man in dark white's crazy. Dark voice is crazy. Man, come on. It's like a bad comic character from like 1982. He absorbs all light.

He draws all light. Aleo, Brian Zanaris, and Arjuna, the watcher. Ryan Kapal. Together, we are known as Out of Midnight, boys. Fossil socials, instant, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok for now, save Jummi's job, Jummi.

Socials are doing amazing. We got some stuff from Charles' little clown video. Yeah, man. You said there talking to clowns, bro? How was that, man? What was the genesis behind that? oh, I really, they were just like, yo, we're doing more videos

and now, Charles, you have an idea and I'm like, I like to go and do some clowns. This is literally the idea. Honestly, I was enraptured. I'm more positive now. I'm super, like, the clowns are fucking dope. I got a lot of friends now. What was the biggest thing you learned from clowns?

Honestly, people need to be fucking nicer to the clowns, okay? I was just like, like, a lot of the clowns are like, yeah, sometimes you need to hide the medicine and the honey. People are really mean to us. kids are scared of us. I'm like, damn, we really done lost recipes as a culture. We used to honor the clown.

You know, me and Bill talked about this on the poltergeist rewatchables. Because I asked him, I was like, what is the era that the clown went from being, like, nice clown to being scary? Like, what's the era? I thought it had to do with maybe it. Yeah. Yeah. But no. I cover it.

There's been this clown panic a lot. You know what I'm saying? It didn't start with it, but that's when I think we started as a, like, country being, like, absolutely fuck off. Like, we don't like y'all. Bill said John Wayne Gacy. Yes. Oh. Yeah.

Like, John Wing-Gacy is the point. And I have to be honest with you, we had Bozo to Clown growing up, Chicago. Love Bozo. And it was fun. But, kill the clowns from Ice Space, Clown, Clown, Clown. I feel like the clowns, this might be the era of the clowns taking their identity back?

I hope so. Rest in control. Also, you want to know what it was? I don't know if y'all realized, like, had this. Once the Halloween industrial complex really started, like, heating up, clown, like,

scary cloud. Like, clown, like, it would be like when I would go out as a kid, I'd be like, there would just be like clowns dripping blood on their, like, because it's because they're kind of scary, though.

Like, Ronald McDonald, you look back at them now, the niggas kind of scary. He's a little scary. I mean, I'm looking at the clowns. You had a lot of variety of clowns. They're more than just racing. But you look at Ronald McDonald and, like, art the clown right now. Terrifier.

It's scary. However, I'm here for the clowns, like, really taking their narrative back. Yeah. I think it's important. I do because, like, we have been, it's like a frowned upon industry now. You don't even see clowns at parties anymore. Nah. You see people dressed up like door, and they're twerking.

It's not funny. Oh yeah, that's true. You just get like a little mascot thing. We're not on YouTube. You can watch every Midnight Boys House of Our and Talk to Thrones episode on YouTube.com backslash at Ringiverse, like, comment, and subscribe.

On Friday, Buttmash returns to discuss alien isolation in the 10-year anniversary of Tomb Raider, the legend of Loracroft. Now, is this a different game than the regular Tomb Raider? Was this the PS4 or one? Was it Xbox? There were a couple of revamps, but I think this is like one of the original

remasters of Tomb Raider Legend of Laura Crop. Because we had like a reboot that was like post-uncharted era. That's the Xbox one, right? That's the Xbox one, yes. But this is one is like more of the ode to the classic. You know what's funny? Is you don't know the answer to that question

yet you felt compelled to answer it anyway? You looked at me as if I should. You don't know what this game is. Really quick, I do have to say this. Do y'all remember the original? like Loracroft Tomb Raider. Like I remember playing it. And it's so funny looking back at it now as a kid,

I was like, this is the hottest a woman has ever looked in a video game. It's six polygards. It's like triangle. They got triangle tithies. Back then, I was like, whoa. That was a height of technology. But even like the PlayStation itself, when the PlayStation first came out, I was like, oh my God.

And it was like people made of blocks. Like doing stuff. When you want to know what my favorite game? Do you all remember Parapa the rapper? Yes. Oh, man. Yeah, bros. They used to make real video games back then, man.

Yes, we were a society. You download a game right now. It's 190 gigs and you can't even do nothing in it. I think the games now. I downloaded that undisputed boxing game. Oh, no. Terrible. First of all, yeah, you just wanted to play Fight Night from 06.

That's what we really wanted. Oh, any boxing. in game I'll play. But there, you're right. Every time I look back on the game now that I thought was like groundbreaking, but it does get to a point to where like, by time you get to like the Halo era, you can pretty much play the stuff that you...

Yeah. But like, before then, a lot of games that we thought had changed life. They just, they didn't really. It's when we thought graphics and how a game looks, it equals oh, this is the next level of gaming. When really it's just like, oh, like that

can change in like smaller quantities now. Now it's like, okay, what's the game I want to play? I think the games are too good now. Like, I'm getting to a point where I'm just like, I don't need a game that costs $100 and I can see every pore your skin and shit. Just like. We've got a last girl in Fortnite now. We give her a gun and just like that's it.

We crossed that. Yeah. It's true. So I will say that the games are very good now. Yeah. And that just means that the learning curve. on them is so fucking crazy. That's why I give up.

I'll be like, I'll be like, I'm like, I don't have time for this, bro. Let's get, let's get moving. What if I taught you? I'll tell you what, though. I'll do it all the time. Spider-Man, that's it. All right, Spider-Man is not that hard of a game.

It's not hard. It's not hard. But it's, you can do a lot of stuff on Spider-Man too. And the more stuff you learn how to do, the better the game is, which is normally not true of games for me. Like, the more ways you learn how to fight with Spider-Man man, the more stuff that you learn how to do, it's better. You know, air combos, you know.

That's the greatest game of all time. All right. You just said HALA. I didn't say that. I never said HALO was the greatest game of all time. Why would you just mention HALO? You argue like a Republican. That's what you said that.

Also, tomorrow, House of Art gives you a deep dive into the latest episode of Agatha. I saw Heavy Spoilers. Shout out to, uh, this is name Ryan? What's the Heavy Spoilers guy's name? Do you guys watch Heavy Spoilers? I do not. No. any YouTube's.

Well, no, we watch some. I watch YouTube. I just don't watch heavy spoilers. He was talking about the fact that he thought the episode was too short. There's a weird thing that happens in these shows where it's like, it's an odd thing to where to cut to sometimes.

You're like, this is an odd stopping point sometimes? Is Agatha an hour-long show or a 30-minute show? It's not a 30-minute show. I was just like, what's happening? It's like the bear, though. Yeah. The show is commiserate to, I don't know if I use that word quite right there,

but it's to whatever story they're trying to tell. So sometimes the bear is 40 minutes. And then sometimes... It's like 20 minutes. Sometimes it's like 20 minutes. Yeah, it's short, but that doesn't mean it can be good TV. True, true. Good TV is not only limited to an hour.

I don't know. I do. I'm watching Veep now. Shout to Shea Serrano. I'm like, I'm rewatching. I'm like, I do miss a tight 20, 22 minutes is getting get out. Right. You do miss a tight 22.

I was like, Leonhard de Cap. Oh, right. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Also next week, Min Edition returns for a new episode called Y'all yelled about it. Y'all yelled about it. What is it? What's that about?

Basically, we're polling everybody that wants to yell at us for checking something out, and we check out a couple of things that they yell about. So you're all talking about foundation? No, we got to keep it for the ball. I'll start to throw some bail. Tough. Yeah. So these are the things that people are like, oh, my God.

You got to check this out. today's show, we need our instant reactions to the Green Lantern casting news and I want to talk specifically about colorism. Oh my God. Color art. This ain't higher learning, bro. We cannot do this.

No. We cannot do this. The fear. The fear is what gets me. The fear. I want to make a distinction. Okay. About

what sounding. Twins. I want to make a distinction. Twin. about why I don't care about this and this particular instance. Okay. I'll give you the distinctions on cultural shit in comic book slash non-comic book movies. Is this an actual, like, this is a serious way?

Like, is this like an actual conversation? Are people actually mad that Aaron Pierre is? I've seen a couple of, like, a couple of things. But we do this every single time. That's what I'm saying. Like, nothing like, I don't, that's why I was like, seems like we don't want to blow it up, honestly, because I don't think it's a big day. I don't think I think it's a big deal that much.

I think we talk about it. That's fair. If you want to talk about it. Yeah, I mean, we'll just bring it up. We'll dive deep into it. We'll have to dive deep into it. All right. We're going to do check hands with Agatha and Penguin.

Nerd News. Chuck, take us away. All right. We finally found our green lanterns. John Stewart will be played by Rebel Ridge's Aaron Pierre. Pierre beat out Stefan James and Damson Edris for the part. According to Hollywood Reporter, I forgot this, but Pierre was originally supposed to start opposite of Blade, opposite of Herschel and Blade.

Hal Jordan is played by one of my favorite actors of all time. Friday Night Lights Legend, Kyle Chandler. James Haas is directing the first episode. He is known for his directing work on slow horses. And also Black Mirror, he directed the episodes hated in the nation and smithereens. All right. First question for you then. Aaron Pierre, good choice for John Stewart.

Perfect. Perfect. Why? Physicality and presence. In the comics, John Stewart, Navy SEAL? Yeah. Marine? Something like that, I can't remember.

Okay. He has, Rebel Ridge is a movie that with an actor that was any less able to take up space, it would feel like a sparse performance. Movies like that are, characters like that are tough. Like, even if you watch, obviously, First Blood, which is the movie that Rebel Ridge is most aptly compared to. Stallone has something in the movie to where he wears his trauma and his situation

like all over his body. It seems like he's nine feet tall. Yeah. And in Rebel Ridge, Aaron does a great job of speaking without talking and filling up the screen. And to me, that character needs some. someone that can be a little bit more resolute that comes off like Stewart comes off. And really, he has that superhero thing. But when I saw him and I saw that he was up for the role, I thought he was perfect.

And he's just right now career-wise, hotter than the other two guys. That's what I was going to say. It was for like, after Robill Ridge, the guy, like, everybody's raving by his performance. He's amazing in it. You mentioned the physicality. And so it seems like the perfect time to make this guy. John Stewart. Yeah.

Just makes complete sense. Stoicism is the name of the game for John Stewart, for me, at least. And having seen Rebel Ridge, like, he's got that in spades. I think that he's going to bring... What do you mean spate? Huh? What do you mean spade? He has it in spades.

What do you say? The phrase is, what kind of... What do you mean he's a spade? What does that mean? I know what you're doing. So, no, no, one of my questions, you know what you're doing. No. What's happening?

No, I don't know what you're doing. I do. Careful. What's going on? Save Steve. My big question, because I love this casting. I love Aaron Pierre. Kyle Chandler, like Friday Night Lights is like a top 10, top five sometimes.

Oh, yeah. TV show for me. I think these are two amazing characters. My worry, I look this up. Kyle Chandler is 59. He's up there. That's great. Nathan Phileon, who was playing Guy Gardner in the Superman movie.

hilarious. Green Lantern, the Green Lantern Corps is starting to seem like old folks. You know what I'm saying? And I'm wondering, is this their way

of being like, Aaron Pierre is going to be our movie, singular kind of Green Lantern in terms of like when we have a Justice League, this is, he's going to be doing that.

And like the Kyle Chandler, Nathan Philly, in roles are more so like, mentor type serious roles or, you know what I? They're not starting, the fact that they're choosing not to start

Green Lantern with Hal Jordan tells you right there that Hal Jordan and Guy Gardner are going to be at different phases of their relationship with the Green Lantern Corps. Like with Ryan Reynolds's Green Lantern, that's literally, they're doing the origin of the character. I think they're doing the origin

of the core here. So I think they're putting their hands to your question. I think they're putting the hands, the hands of the Green Lantern core into John Sore. I think John Soer is going to be your Green Lantern. I honestly think that that actually is a really, really smart choice where

to me, I think you need like an actor like Kyle Chandler to almost resell you on Green Lantern that this is a character that can be taken seriously after the Ryan Reynolds kind of debacle of that movie. He's even made fun of that movie. Sure. And I do like the thought of like,

all right, Aaron Pierre is going to be our Green Lantern, but there's R.A. people who probably are experts. Like we're probably going to meet Hal Jordan when he's been Green Lantern for years now. And I like that. I'm like, okay, we're not starting the story from this is everything that the Green Lantern

are. The only thing that I would ever want from him being Green Lantern is to just fry it and like coach John Stewart into being a Green Lantern. That'd be funny. That'd be great. This dynamic kind reminds me of the Ant Man dynamic where like Hank Pym and Scott Lang, you know,

where like Hank Pim is, you know, for all intest purposes, the Ant Man we associate with all the comics stuff. But there was a second one and now we're like elevating that person to the role. And so I'm sure their relationship will be much kinder than Michael Douglas was to Paul Rudd in the movies. But I'm excited, man. Do you think they're going to do something similar with the Flash where instead of starting with like Barry Allen and shit? They're like, let's go to Wally West and kind of like yada yada a bunch. Like, I think it's a harder sell for that.

Yeah, we got some time before we get to that. Okay, so with this one, the whole Lantern Court, first of all, as I understand it, this show is sort of a procedural. It's a true detective situation. Josh Brolin, I think, was in the mix. I even think there were rumors that Matthew McConaughey, they were trying to go after him for. So being that that's the deal, then you need various different people to occupy ranks of the Green Lantern Court, right? So if he's a new recruit, then John Stewart is coming into something. and it being like a true detective mystery,

you need different people to occupy different posts. With Flash, you're talking about a mantle. And so that mantle needs a starting point. And I think it might, for me at least, it might confuse some of the audiences to start off with a flash. In the comics, they just went to Wallyweb. I'm not in the comics, in the show, the Justice League show,

and the Justice League Unlimited. They didn't really explain Barry. And they're just like, this is Wally West. He's the Flash. It's also like a little of a small taster of how possibly Superman's going to be because we've more or less got like a massive gallery of DC heroes that are interacting with Superman that we may or may not even actually be familiar with. Like we have Mr. Terrific interacting with Superman to where the large consensus of people

don't really know who Mr. Terrific is. Well, that's different though. But I think that onboarding is kind of the same, at least when it comes to setting, when it comes to something like the Green Lantern Corps, where it's like, All right, we're all like the space cops and this will kind of just be like, all right, the old, like the old guard is shifting to the new. Yeah, I think what I'm saying is with this is a lot easier

because there are many lanterns. Nobody knows who Mrs. Terrific is. People kind of know who the Flash is. Right. And so I'm not, we're just picking this now. But I think it would be probably easier to start the Flash with the origin of the character, whereas this one, if you're doing the true detective type of thing,

you don't have to be anchored to one particular guy. So my last question. Oh, what were you saying, John? You mentioned Superman. I didn't know how many characters he was thrown into it. Like, got a lot. I mean, obviously, hot girl, a guy gardener, Mr. Terrific, metamorpho.

There's a lot of, the engineer. Is it an elongated man in it? No, it's a metamorpho, I think. And then, like, you know, Jonathan can't like... To what degree is that just going to be like, he's in the background or he's in a scene being like, hey, I'm here. Yeah, there's a lot going on.

We had Weasel in Suicide Squad and he was just like a weird looking squirrel man. That was a funny bit though. It was a funny bit, but that's all that he was there for. I don't disagree, but at the same time, I'm thinking about it, when you want to make a Superman movie after like all the Wahala that's been around Superman character for so long, I think you just want to make bare bones of Superman, Slowest Lane, Perry White, Jonathan Kent, Efeis, Lex Lucas Luther, boom. That's it.

But they're throwing a lot in there. But I think they're doing that on purpose. on purpose because I think, and it's so crazy, but I think the way to make Superman compelling is to actually make him smaller. I think what the, I think Zach's problem with the Superman that he made was that he was giving high concept and low character stakes. So it was like, does the world need Superman?

Superman is floating in and people are drawing S's and they're worshipping as a side. It's a whole thing, right? And so having that gigantic question surrounding the character and his place in the DC universe, it necessitates you building up, like putting steroids in your lore. And you have to really nail the character if you're going to do that. However, in this one, if you construct a world when the world is happening around Superman, and he can either be the thing that puts it over the top or he can tip the thing. the scales in a way, I think it might be easier for the actor to find himself in the

performance and also for the character to find himself in a new audience. I mean, I think also what I like, if I can predict, is James Gunn probably learned a lot about how the MCU treated Captain America because I think there is a way that they could have treated Captain America like they do in the comics, which is like, this is our best. Oh my God, he's the center. Rara, rah, rah, ra, versus how Weiden and Co. when Figey introduced Captain America is in that first Avengers movie,

you start looking at Cap and you're just like, oh, no, he's the beating heart. There have been superheroes. Maybe Iron Man started this universe, but this is kind of our heart. This is the guy who, like, we look to morally. And I think it's smart in Superman to be like, oh, maybe the Justice League has already started

or there's all these other heroes. But this is the hero actually because of his morals, how he grew up, what he represents that can teach us something. I think it's cool that a younger Superman is coming in. People are like, oh, no, we've been doing superheroes wrong. This is maybe how we should do it from going on. And it's like, to your point, I think it's less of a big cell to be like, no, he's Jesus.

And then Ben Affleck is like, and I'm an alcoholic Batman. You're just like, he's a little too much, man. Do you believe? You know, Affleck was just fucking obsessed, dog. I like it. I mean, first of all, I love Batflick. I love that. He had a fucking machine gun on the Batflick.

What I like the- about Bat-Wleck is I like people who talk shit, right? Superman coming up to Bat-Fleck any point that Superman wanted to. He could have breathed ice breath on him. Yep. Tipped his fucking head off. And Batman's like, I'm going to fuck you up. Yeah.

Do you bleed? Do you bleed? And then Superman's like, okay, buddy. And Superman's like, what? What? What? Superman's flying away. Batman's like, I got something for your motherfucker.

But to be fair, I feel like Superman never got checked. Like, I feel like if super, if you took the powers away from, you know, Zach Snyder's Superman, he's probably a bitch.

I mean, well, well, Zach Man is a bitch. That's not true. Yes. Oh, no,

no, let them stand on it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, first of all, let him stand on it,

though. What, what, what, let them have, like, take the floor, what do you mean?

No, go on. Stand on it. Stand on it. It is. So without powers, you say Superman is a bitch. I think that rendering of Cavils a little bit. He was righteous in the front.

Like Man of Steel, like it chips, it flirts with that like morally, not righteous, but like morally like North Star Clark Kent that we could have known. But then as the evolution of the Star universe comes and by the time he's meeting Batman, it's basically like this like he becomes the threat that Batman perceives him to be at every turn. Wow. Yeah, what sense? Because he's so cynical about Earth and he only protects it because he thinks he's the most powerful thing I never see anything that's more than the threat that is perceived by Ben Affleck

and his Batman to like this is a problem waiting to happen this is a threat waiting to happen. So I think that that's probably because it didn't really give Superman anything to do. Yeah. And so Superman was saying that Batman was doing it wrong and Batman was saying that Superman was doing it wrong

but really they weren't doing anything. Right, no. And the movie is so chopped up that the narrative of Superman going to Africa and all of that's why I've watched. Extended edition. I was locked in. If you watch the extended edition,

I'm not about to get it, because you guys always hate when I do this and I don't want to upset Charles. But if you watch the extended edition... I watch the extended edition. The story, I'm not saying it's better, but I'm saying it is better. It is better.

The story makes more sense. The Africa scene is nuts. Like, guys, That's not, no, no, no. In the extended edition, wait, and the fucking one that they put out in theaters, it makes no sense.

Yes, I agree on this. And in extended edition, the story of why everything that happens at least makes sense. But it's so much longer and weirdly more depressing. I'm like, God. Oh, it's definitely more.

It's an absolute slog. It's definitely more depressing. It's definitely more depressing. I mean, once you understand that Lex knows that these like that car cut in Superman and that Bruce Wayne is Batman and he's just like and he's starting from there the movie kind of falls in the place it's I'm not going to say there and say it's a 10 or 9 whatever the extent edition but I can understand how how these things go we're doing a

mid-white rewatch on this we are please we got to talk to Snyder just like make the movie that you want to come out like make the movie yeah bro The first time. We're trying to execute the movie that you want to come out. There's got to be people being like, we can't make a four-hour. We got a new fucking Rebel Moon. We got a new Justice League.

Eighth edition. Just make the movie that you want people to see. The one that comes out, that's the one. Everybody has a director's cut. I feel like it's a bit now because it's just like, oh, oh, there's a theatrical cut. And then now let's just wait for the internet to get mad enough. And then they're like, no, but the real one is.

A director's cut used to be a trick. You need to be like, oh my God, let's take the studio out of it. Now it's, this is the movie I actually wanted to make. Fuck everybody. But they released the shit anyway. Like, they own it. What can you do? So we're good with this.

Oh, this is the, just in case people didn't know. So there's some people that are mad. Colorism. Colorism. Oh, boy. There's some people that are mad because in the comic books and in the cartoons, John Stewart is portrayed. As a Kerm.

Jesus Christ. As a dark voice. As a Kerm is crazy. What are we doing? What the fuck are we doing? See, it's not as bad. Curr would be a good John Stewart. Kerm will be a Kirtle John Stewart.

Can you imagine he just pulls up on howl Jordan and start doing spoken work? It'd be funny. What's this? Oh, no. He's not breaking news. He's not breaking news. Henry Cavill has been cast in a live action Voltron movie. Okay.

Nice. Is he the robot? Henry Calvich is going to keep doing it. He's probably going to be... Is the team going to assemble in inside of him? It would be funny if Kerm was actually cast as Green Lantern because it would just be the green suit flying around in space. You wouldn't be able to see that's nice.

Oh, my God. Keep messing with me. This mix is going to be crazy. This is going to be the worst mix. Y'all niggins are going to be. Keep messing with me. But you'll have you auto-chew this whole episode. Black is not.

is a killer nickname. That's a black as night. A black as night is a killer nickname. People are mad. They're saying that Aaron Pierre is too fair skin to play John Stewart. Interesting. Upset.

They're like this. They're like John Stewart is a dark skin hero. Aaron Pierre also is going to John Stewart is American. And Aaron Pierre is also from overseas. What is it? Let's get to that. What is it with me?

I'm not. And the UK Black, but like, why can't we connect? They took our judge. Yeah, like, why can't we bridge the gap?

Okay. Okay. This is for, I'm going to talk about, not you. Not me. No, no, no, this is what I'll say.

This is what I'll say. This is what I'll say. My criticism, my critique of that only matters in biopics. I only care about it in biopics. Not with like fictional characters.

Give me an example where it really Jews Judas in the Black Messiah. It, as, it, me at first. Fair.

It bothered me but to be honest with you, it's kind of a tickey tag divisive type of thing. I get that. It's not something

that we really should be that concerned over, but it's happening so much like John Boyega is playing like Otis Redding and it's like, it's not a huge deal

but then when you have guys like, you have it not a Mex be played and all it is getting to people. It's like there is something that in my opinion, there's at least an underlying thought or assumption about the black American

performer. I mean, we're talking about like literally core people. We're talking about like Harry, and by the way, I'm talking about a lot of people who, frankly I know and who did great jobs in these roles. We're talking about like Harriet Tubman. We're talking about Otis Redding. We're talking about people who like, you know, really, really matter like black American Titans. right now it happens the other way too Denzel Washington plays Steve Biko we've seen this before we've seen this happen before at the end of the day it's acting

but I don't think that that criticism is completely unwarranted what I would say is that when we're talking about comic book characters I don't think any of this stuff it really matters that much so can I actually just I'm interested now

why do you think are those stories should be played by dark skin women like why do you think the UK this is happening where like UK actors are basically getting more. Because like if we're being honest, if you were to list the top 10 black actors in Hollywood now, I would probably guess 60 to 70% of them

are probably from the UK or not from the states. Do you think this, like what part of the business do you think this is? Is this like basketball where like, you know, they're like the Americans, you know, like when Manu came to the league, they're like, all those overseas dudes, they'd be doing fundamentals, you know? And is it kind of like something like that?

So you know what I'll do? I'll cross-promote the podcast. This is what I'll do. I won't answer this question. I'll let one of the Hughes brothers answer this question. Okay. We had, somebody checked this. Which whose brother was it that was on the Continental?

The Continental. Allen or Albert, whatever, whatever, the Continental Show. Oh, the Hous brothers. So we had him on Higher Learning, and he's doing a Snoop Dog biopic. And we asked him, who's going to play? Albert. Albert Hughes. We asked Albert Hughes, who's going to play Snoop Dog?

And his answer was probably some British dude. And then he went right into why he thinks, and I was surprised at this, people didn't make a bigger deal of this, why he thinks that the British black performer is out and out superior. Acting wise. Actor-wise, talent-wise, because of the stage, because of the way that they're honed. He talked about it. And if that's coming from someone who, I'm not saying I subscribe to that at all, I think it's, I think it's bullshit.

But if that's coming from someone who's in a position to cast people, then that might explain to you why this is happening. There might be. That's a philosophical thing when they come to cast people. Well, yeah. They might feel that the British black actors are better. There's a level of prestige or there's a level of like. To me, like, yeah, to the metaphor I started, it's like AAU ball versus going up. You know, it's a team game over there overseas.

They teach them fundamentals, whatever. And America, they look at it as like, oh, it's AAU ball. It starts all. Yeah, it's just like one man doing the thing. I guess what he's saying is like how they operate over there coming up through the stage and all that stuff leads to better actors over there than there are here. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, if I'm going to be honest.

I do also think a lot of this is just racism in terms of like they probably view a UK black actor as having less baggage than an African-American actor in terms of just like Snoop Dogg if you if they're casting somebody from the West Coast that they're probably like damn that's going to come with a lot of whatever did it. Let's just get somebody from the UK. I mean, you can find somebody if you really wanted to. No, you can. I think you can. I just think they're like, let's be honest. there's racism in the UK. It is completely different

from the historical racism in the states. And there's probably a lot of white people be like, hey, yo, nobody. I mean, I don't, I really don't know. All I know is it's a thing that people think. And so, you know what I mean? All I know is it's a thing that people think.

And I was surprised that he said it. I loud. But I also took it as maybe he was attempting to challenge black American actors. For me, it's a non-starter because I can name you immensely talented black actors, male and female, stage and screen. Like Kelvin Harrison Jr., like Lekeith Stanfield, all of these guys are fucking fantastic. Now, the Brits are doing their fucking thing to a large

degree. I'll say that. But if it matters to you, you can cast those roles with actors to me that are just as talented. But what I'm saying is, he's not this idea that this is happening over and over again. It's not like, it doesn't,

no one conjured it. Like we asked a guy who's casting the movie and he's straight up told us. So I'm not saying that that means everyone thinks that, but it's something that decision makers are thinking.

For the Green Lantern movie, I just think it's another talking point. I think Air Pierre is great for the movie. I think it's fine. I mean, I would rather have this conversation than have the other conversation where they're just like, they put a black man in this,

oh, give me my nerd shit back. I'm like, it's... I mean, our last two badmands, let's be honest. Our last two badmands are British guys, right? Robert Pattinson, no, no, no, not been at... Like, Bradflex was British. Well, like Robert Pattinson and then Christian Bell's Australian, I think. No, he's Welsh.

He's Welsh. Is he Welsh? Gardsweets not American. Is he? No, I don't think so. He's British, I think. Is he? Wait, or Australian? No, he's American.

He's American. He's a Red Bullets. Oh, wait, he's from Philadelphia. you. Yeah. So you have that. Then you had a British Superman, you know? So it's like, yeah.

Oh, Henry Cavill was British. Yeah. Henry Cavill was really. So it's not like it's only happening to black actors. It's like, you know. Bob Dylan doesn't look like Timmyshadow American again. Hey, man, I tell you what? Let me tell you what's not going to happen.

What? I'm going to be honest with you. I'll just be real. We can have this conversation all you want. Let me tell you what's not going to happen. You're not going to get Chris. Pine playing James Bond. The guy who plays James Bond is going to be a British motherfucker.

They got mad when Daniel Craig got cast as Bond. Yeah, because he was. Because he was Bond. Right. So I'm saying. They got man when Pierce Brasden did it because he's Irish. Yeah. So it's like they're not, you're not going to have fucking, you know, that's, then that's

not what you're doing. Could you imagine Lakeith Stanfield or James Bond? I love it. Oh, my gosh. Amazing. I love it. Honestly, Lakeith Stanfield is my number one actor that you can put him in any role. And I'll be like, I don't know if it'll be good.

I want to see him at Superman. Ooh. He had to get spoiled. He had to get to square for that. No, no, no, no, no. The funny thing is for Lakeith Stanfield to play Superman just like he is. Lean. Lean soups.

Okay. Swimming in that's costume. Soups on a cut. Wait, who's what was? Huh? Oh, man, you can have anybody if you love. Kiki Palmer? Kiki Palmer, Tesla Thompson.

There you go. You know what I'm saying? Zazi beats. Just making Atlanta again? Zazi B. Bring it back. Run it back. I'll make Childers Gambino, Lex Luthor. You know?

Would he go bald? I mean, you have to. Definitely. You have to. Got to be so crazy if you did that. Donald would probably so pissed off if he wasn't Superman. If he was Superman. Who would, who would, what?

What would he be? Jimmy. Perry what? Perry what? No, he can't be Jimmy. Why can't he be Jimmy? That's too. That's too.

That's too plucky. Yeah. It's too plucky. You got to be Perry. Okay. Yeah. Perry Mason. Perry Mason.

Sorry, not Perry Mason. Perry White. What's going on? I see. I did see Barry Mason the other day. Steve farted one time. It's been downhill ever since. He farted out all of this since.

All right. It is time to get into these motherfucking shows. Okay. Spoiler alert for the MCU. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer. you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner, or a road trip goes sideways,

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Agatha all I love. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. To begin our reactions, we're going to bring you the Midnight Manifest. Talking about all the need to know about the latest episode of Agatha. Chuck, take it away. All right, this is your midnight manifest for Agatha all along.

Darkest Hour, Wake Thy Power, directed by Rachel Goldberg, written by Laura Monti. The Coven heads to Agatha's trial after being chased by the reanimated Salem 7. In a 1980-style house, the Coven found a Ouija board and make contact with Agatha's mom. Ebenora Harkness possesses Agatha and attacks the group. Alice dies in the process of trying to save them. Possessed, Agatha is defeated by the teen who yells the name of her dead son, Nicholas Scratch. Agatha reveals that the teen is Wanda's son, Billy, and angered by the coven's shaking moral hortitude.

The teen dispatches of Agatha, Lilia, and Chen. All right. I think there's the episode then that everybody's been waiting for. I don't think it was the most well-kept secret that the teen was Billy Kaplan. aka Wiccan, aka Wanda's magical son. Yeah.

First thoughts when you shut off the show. You know what I thought? Agatha is something right now that an MCU show hasn't been in a long time.

Which is as good as it could possibly be. I don't think that there's a... I think that they're maxing out what an Agatha show

could be. Yes. And I think that's a huge, A huge compliment to the show, but also an indictment of MCU television. Most of the shows that I've watched before this, I've been like, they could have done Moon Night better. They could have done Miss Marvel better. It seems like there's so much meat left on the bone for them to get something out of these characters. And maybe because we knew the characters and we were expecting more.

Like something like Secret Invasion, we know what Secret Invasion was in the comic books, and we know that wasn't Secret Invasion. Yeah. Right. But with this show, I'm like, I'm having fun with this show. Yeah. I'm enjoying this show. The show is actually scary sometimes. And for what I know about this character, there's not much more they could be doing.

Yeah. There's not much. It couldn't be much better. It's a little funny. It's a little sexy. It's a little scary. The Wiccan Reveal wasn't a huge deal. No.

But it was still cool when I saw it. Yeah. So I think if Agatha, honestly, if Agatha doesn't end up being something that people really, really love, it'll be simply because they just weren't interested in Agatha and weren't interested in this particular type of storytelling. I kind of agree with that. I watched this episode last night with a couple of friends and my girlfriend, and we all see, like, nobody is as locked in. to Marvel as I have been

over these past few years and nobody really is that in touch with either Wiccan lore or like when the Wiccan reveal happened they're like oh so he's got powers that's cool who is that and like what does that mean like the amount of people that are loving this show while having like next

to zero point of entry to this next to say Wanda Vision or they just really like spooky witchy stuff they're having a great time and that's all that this needs, that the show has never needed to be. And it really seems to be the fact that it's capitalizing on something that, again, is exactly as good as it could be and that it needed to be. And I'm not saying that it needed to be a groundbreaking show. It doesn't need to be a thing

that attracts the hardcores or the sweats or anything like that. But it's the fact that it's getting the people that are just barrier of entry is nothing. And they're having a great time with it. I think, and I'm still having a great time with it. Yeah, I think what the show does, like, particularly well is that it's extremely episodic, you know, and it's like going back to the Wanda Vision thing where every episode, they're going to do a trial and Wiccan finds, the TV show theme. They're in different costumes. Wiccan finds the clue for the trial, and then one person has to use their powers to figure it out, then they get outside, and it's just like, yeah, you can be like, oh, it's the same formula over and over again, but honestly, it,

works. There's something that we connect to each week. And honestly, I think this episode was the highlight of that entire thing. Right. We have a scene with Agatha and her mother, which was insane, by the way. Imagine hearing your mom being like, hey, we should have killed you once you got off the nuts. That's crazy.

By the way, that's like a little chico, right? So, like, if there's not a ton of her backstory yet, and a show at its worse, keeps telling us how bad Agatha was without showing us. Right. Right. And that's the show at its worst right now, right? Agatha is so terrible. Agatha's so terrible.

But we're watching the show and we're like, kind of like Agatha. Yeah. It's the name of the show. She doesn't seem as bad as what you guys are saying she is. But when you see her mom there and you see that her mother says she should have killed her, you automatically connect with how fucked up that is from a parent. So once again, it's the show not really.

relying too much on character building, which is the best way to do it. But just taking something that we all understand and then using it to further flesh out one of the main characters. And the show does a smart thing in this project episode because it's supposed to be like a sleepover vibe. Everybody's having fun.

Strange and things type stuff. You know, and like the ghost mom is down there talking to everybody about how bad Agatha is and Agatha's up there. Like, mom, don't reimburse me for my friends. It's just little things like that that make the show feel so smart and enjoyable. And it knows what it's doing at every turn when it wears the costume of whatever TV show or movie or pastiche that it's having each week. Like it knows the little winks and nods that it can do in front of the audience to be like, see, we're doing the Stranger Things Sleepover Camp thing. We're doing the, oh my God, the pretty little lies thing

or the mayor of East Town. Every single time, it has all of these hats that it can wear, and it just wears it with a charm and a plume, and I love it. You let the term plume. Yeah. You're a plume guy. With a plume.

With a plume. With a plume. With a plum. With a plum. Does this show, like, in retrospect, do you think, like, Fagy and Co are like, damn, does this make more? sense if they knew Wanda Vision was going to be as successful as it was, where you get Wanda Vision,

you get an Agatha or Billy type show, and then we have Vision Quest. That seemed more like a seamless thing? It feels odd, well, I think it's twofold. It feels odd that a show like this that is more or less a sequel to Wanda Vision, one of the most popular shows that they've ever had took so long to come out after the fact. Yes, because there's a part where this show is the sequel to WandaVision. Division, but it's not. It's not.

That's sometimes where I get a little tripped up, where I'm like, just me as a viewer, probably the most interesting thing that I'm interested in is like, all right, what's the continuation of the Wanda, of the Wanda vision, or whatever. Twins, story. And I do think it's a creative way where it's like, oh, we're probably not going to get Olson in three seasons of this.

So we get Catherine Hahn, and then we're going to go to Paul Bettney, and he's going to get a shot. But I wish there was a little bit more. It's a little bit. It's a sequel To the world Their story sequels And their world sequels, right?

Okay So like Captain American A Winter Soldier is a sequel Set in the same MCU world As Captain America Same street level world Same, you got to answer to the president And the military world

So even though Steve Rogers is in it The people that were surrounding him are in it And a lot of the storylines that were made concrete throughout the Rogers run are in it. This is set in the same world, the witchy world, the kind of we play a trick on you world. And I think the thing that the show has to do is explain what the future of that world is in the MCU

and why we should care about it. Do you think it's going to do that? Because I feel like the show doesn't really have much interest. Maybe by the end they'll pass the baton to Vision Quest. but I don't know when I'm watching the show that's even what they're kind of like interested in making that narrative and I think that we're going to get ourselves

tripped up on wanting that typical MCU passing of the baton post credits oh no where are we going after this one I think that Marvel might be a bit smarter to just be like hey wasn't this a fun time I totally disagree I know that because that's

gotta keep the ball rolling I know that's been the success of the entirety of this entire thing there has to be something at the end of the road. I get it. So I'm just, I'm being, I mean that figuratively and literally. And literally, I understand that. There has to be something at the end of the road.

For sure. And I think that's it. I mean, we have to learn either something a lot more concrete about Agatha or something a lot more concrete about this world. It, it, I'm not saying that this has to solve all of the problems or create this different type of deep, deep, deep, deep lore like Guardians did for the cosmic marble world? Like Strange did for the mystical world. The world of witches has not been cracked open.

I'm not saying that it has to do that, but I do say that at the end of this, there needs to be an understanding as to what we're stepping into. And so if the show doesn't do that, it's a failure. And by the way, wait, really? I heard of the thing. This comes from someone who's like, I've been on record.

Like, this isn't like a show for me. is not generally what I would watch. But I do think that what you and Steve are saying is the interesting tension where it's like, can an MCU show just be like a good one-off adventure or does it need to further some type of narrative, even if it's not the larger MCU narrative, does it need to further the Wanda Envision story

or the Young Avengers story? And I think that's what I'm searching for where I'm like, to your point, if I get to the end of the road and I don't have a better sense of who Billy is, what the connection is to the larger kind of story and like where are we going with that?

I'll be like, hmm, okay. Well, I mean, go ahead, John. It seems like a, I don't want to say like it's an impossible, like, or even like a tough bad of the tag. But it can be hard, right?

Trying to juggle the narratives of the characters versus the narrative, like of the world in a show, you know, like one or like Agatha all along, Right. I think, and maybe this is just like a personal thing, I like seeing the character grow over, you know, how many of our episodes, 9, 10, whatever, 8, whatever may be. The world, at least in the TV shows, I know I'm going to get a movie that's going to expand the world, whatever. I'm going to get two, three, again, four movies next year, right?

For a show like this, as long as the characters move and grow and change, that's fine by me. I'll be okay. I don't think if the show ends in Agatha, we learn more about Agatha, but we don't learn more about that world. I think I'll be fine. But my thing is this, what good, would you, if you don't, if there's no,

if the world itself has no intrigue or you don't get a deeper understanding of it, why would you care about the movie? So like, to me, that takes all of the burden away from, and this is kind of the thing, right? To me, I desperately, give you an example, I desperately wanted to know what was next for Wanda after Wanda vision. This is very simple.

I desperately wanted to know what was next for Wanda after Wanda. But is that because of the story? Because of her growth through that show. No, it's because of what at the end of the show. I mean, when White Vision flies away, my first thought is where, like, I want to see. Where's he going? Like, what happened to vision? Like, where's he going?

Like, what happened to vision? Like, where is he going? What happened to Vision? You are now the Scarlet Witch. We have been with the character for fucking seven years and we hadn't heard that name. Okay. Now she is the Scarlet Witch. What does this mean?

She's got the Dark Hole now. What happens to Wanda now? All of that. And then that leads you into being curious about the version of Wanda that you get in multiverse of madness. But they drop the ball in multiverse of madness, which I think is my indictment of just how this was rolled out, which I was like, all right, Wanda Vision builds Wanda. up to a certain point. And I honestly think that series, say about it what you will,

is probably the one that finally to me was like, okay, we're going to fix Wanda because she wasn't that interesting of a character in the movies. Like she was there, but most of the time they weren't giving you what you needed to. They get her to an interesting point.

We get multiverse of madness. They fridger. Now we have Agatha and we're seeing the sun. And I'm starting to be like, I need a... I don't think they fridged her in multiverse of madness. You don't think so?

I don't. And I also think that she was one of the more compelling characters because I think besides like maybe Tony or cap, she had lost the most. She's getting her fucking ass kicked. Whoa, but before Wanda Vision, if we're just going from what was in the movies, my problem was what- She had lost her brother. She had lost her lover. She had lost her entire village, her whole thing.

I was actually interested in like, are they going to stop kicking? her ass and when Wanda Vision came out I remember I was happy and seeing okay her own story on her own terms what about Wanda I was actually interested in seeing that um but I think my thing is

like don't you get that like story growth that like large netter growth through the character growth right but you get it not just through the character growth but you get it through the what she's actually doing right yeah she's actually the bad guy and that's

She's the jailer in that story, whether she means to be or not. And her coming to terms with who she is, she expands the world of witchiness. She makes into a bigger thing. Like, it does come through a character. I'm not necessarily saying that that can't come through the character. Of course not. But I'm saying, like, I think my thing is the best way to do that, the best way to expand the world is to have a character, like, start from here and find themselves,

find themselves and some are different at the end. Yeah, well, it's the only way. But what I'm saying is, in this particular case, what you get sometimes at the end of the MCU is either more intrigue without deepening anything or a narrative that feels a little hollow and meaningless. You know what, but you know what did this well? A TV show that did this well,

and I don't think they ever did this again, which is like, if you look at that first season of Loki, by the end of it, when you get majors coming in, Heushanaki, named, whatever, it's a TV show that, like, opens up the world where not only am I excited

to see the next season of Loki. I'm, like, where is this thread going? And in this magical world, I do want these shows to be like, I want the end of Agatha to feel like, it doesn't have to give me a he shoot, like a kang reveal or whatever, but, like, yo, I want to be excited to be like,

yo, what the fuck? Like, what's happening? Where is the next? Switch, what's going on? That's been the magic that Marvel's had pretty much since its inception. Yeah. And I'm almost kind of wanting to see it

kind of a little bit dialed back only because for the sake of everything that's happened post end game, even Wanda Vision to a slightly less degree, it's been constantly left off the table for anything that comes after it. Because we've been seeing something

that are like, oh, well, if we don't have resonation with a narrative or a character or things that went down, we've got a great breadcrumming for the next thing that they could be doing. And that's the, and I know that that's not breaking. And I know that that's not exactly what we're talking about. But to know that like if there isn't anything more deeper than,

okay, so Wiccan is here, he's here to avenge what, uh, the fact that Wiccan is here is the subject of how did he get here? No, I get that. If you read the comic books, then you know why Wiccan is alive. Let's do Jomi, the explainer. Can you do like an ISO just on, like, because I want to get into the conversation of who Wiccan is Young Avengers on the board.

And then I think we've all read the comics of like maybe an explanation of how we think that this little boy became a teenager. Well, so in the comics, Mephisto tried to think Scarlet Witch and Mephisto had a thing. And he was the lost son of Scarlet Witch

reincarnated as Billy Claplin, who grew up to be the young Avenger known as Wiccan, right? And so he's extremely powerful with magic, obviously, being Scarlett, which is son. And I think, yeah, like, in terms of the, I'm trying to think, on the board for the Young Avengers, Miss Marvel, Hawkeye, Wiccan, Patriot, Patriot. I mean, Scar is not like an official member. He was there. Stature, Iron Heart, America Chavez, and Kid Loki.

Right? All these kids are not making the team. I mean, it could. I don't give a fuck about the Young Avengers. See, all the hate... This is not for you. The reason we have to talk about this is... I mean, and speed...

We're going to see speed at some point. I mean, it'll be a vision quest. Yeah. Maybe we'll see speed at the end of this show. Good? Maybe. Maybe we'll see speed at the end of the show. That'd be nuts.

I don't give a fuck about whether or not we see speed or not. Well, you don't like the plug. But, but, but, like, what I'm saying is the only thing, the only point that I'm making, the only point is that very few shows... if you're talking about a limited series, which I guess this could be looked at, depending on how it goes, if you're talking about a limited series,

a limited series wraps up its narrative. So it's just basically a long movie. Limited series, most of the time, wraps up its narrative until it wins a bunch of fucking Emmys. And makes all kinds of money for the network. We're season three. Which lets people know that they're going to bring it back. Okay.

Now, everybody talks about, like, Lovecraft Country. If Lovecraft Country was the number one rated show on HBO and all of that stuff like that. We don't have a mayor of East Down season two, though. This shit would have come back. Just wait. It'll laugh.

Just wait. But if not, then you have to end the show, making people curious about the future of what you have going on. That's all I'm saying. And somebody, and you know that, a show has failed, not only when you're not curious about what's going to happen in the future or the larger ramifications of the world, but when you don't want anymore. Like when you don't want anymore, I don't think we want that much more.

I didn't think She hoke was a terrible show, but you didn't leave thinking, oh, my God, like, what does this mean? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you don't want anymore, She hoke. I can't wait to see her in Daredeaf. And this, this can be contained in just about Agatha and just about that. but it has to push what they're trying to ground into something that's viable story-wise for the people who watch it.

Do you think that all the big wigs at Marvel who are making these TV shows believe in the capability of the TV shows to do that, to push the narrative forward, or do you think they're like, hey, like, there's just, it's so hard to land. We're trying to do more things like an Agatha or a Wonder Man that are important, but a little bit to the side. And the movies are where we're going to push the thing.

I think that they thought that they could serve us candy. But what we really wanted was like Kalamari. Let me tell you what I mean. They thought that they could serve us something that was just gave us a sugar high. And then we will fall off and we will be cool with just eating candy and candy and candy and candy. what we at least need the TV shows to be, and we've had this discussion on here, we at least need them to be competent appetizers.

We at least need them to be something with that, you know you're just starting and there's a bigger meal coming, but we at least need it to be something that you go to the restaurant for. And there's some restaurants that I go to, and I really want the calamar. It's not all that I want. I do want the meal. I do want the movie.

I do want the entree. It's not all that I want, but I do, I look forward to the calamari, right? You would not feel that way if what they were giving you was just like the little mint that you get at the front. I think they thought they could just give us candy that we would be so happy to watch a lot of this stuff

that the momentary high of seeing Moon Night or seeing Miss Marvel or seeing the scrolls, or not the scrolls. Well, the scrolls, yeah. Of seeing the scrolls will be enough. It's not enough. If it's going to be a good appetizer,

we needed to at least appetize. And that's all I'm saying. I'm saying, sure, we want an entree with Agatha and a movie and a Young Avengers and all of that stuff, but this at least has to be good Kalimar. And that's me drawing a line with these MCU shows. I think they only really came back to this show because they told Captain Hahn that they were going to do it.

And I think she was an actress that they probably respect so much that they didn't want to just leave her show in the lurch. I think that they came back to the show because of that and they're probably going to lean a little bit more into Wanda and Vision Quest and all of that stuff.

I don't know that they, I don't want to speak too much for them, but I don't know that if things, things have gone so bad for the television shows over the last two years, that I don't know if a different actress was Agatha

or if she hadn't broken out from the first, that this would have even happened. Well, yeah, no, they definitely rode off of the high that was Catherine Hahn in that first season. If I'm being honest,

they were probably too far down the road to do this. If they were to redo this, I would be like, oh, this is probably a werewolf by night situation where instead of like eight episodes, I do think if they gave maybe

a more contained, because this, to be honest, when I'm watching this, I'm like, this would have been to me a better like ABC family Halloween, 90 minute movie where it's like

Which again, I would love more of those. I think that's what this show is and I'm just like when you're watching like 44 minutes you're just like oh this isn't bad but this is like it's candy and I'm just like I would much rather have the 90 minute contained version of candy versus like every week just getting a little bit of the sugar high but like walking away being like

I would like to Calabari. Yeah but like to also do you think that It was good. Do you think that we never talk about Werewolf by Night because of the fact that, like, it's never once touched the larger MCU ever again? I mean, I don't know if there's that many people talking about, like, Agatha,

just even in comparison to something like the pen. People are liking it. No, no, I think people, I think people in, like, our bubble are liking it,

but I don't know if it's crossed even, you know, when Wanda Vision was cracking, even Falcon, Loki. I mean, I don't know. That was, okay.

That's post in-game as well. Yeah. That's the highest it's ever been. But even like what had been some of the nerd shows that we've even covered that of like crossed over. Like I don't know if Agatha has. There hasn't been that many, honestly. I feel like the penguin, we'll talk about the penguin later, has kind of crossed over. There's a lot of people I know.

A lot of people crossed over for that. Who would not touch the stuff with the temple pull are enjoying penguin. I'll be honest with you. I don't think penguin is a nerd show. It's not really. I think penguin is. is, well, we can talk about it. I think Penguin is closer to Joker

than it is to a lot of the other stuff that we're talking about. And I'll give me, I'll tell you why. Wait, can we, let's just pivot to it. I got, I got one thing I wanted to mention. And this is, I think, like, part of the genius show of the show. So when it ends, right, we see Billy with the Crown, right? And then they play, like, the Billy Ida show about the Crown. I'm like, it's a little on the nose, but the air coming.

We're loving it. No, no. I like Billy Ilish, man. No, I like some Billy Eilish music. My biggest pet peeve in all the TV shows and movies is a needle drop. That's just too obvious. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, when it's too obvious.

When they do Billy Eilish, they get it at the end of, what's the movie, Brightburn? At the end of, y'all never saw Brightburn? Is Billy Eilish? Was Billy Eilish even alive? Bad guy. Was Billy Eilish even alive? Back. What's a Billy Islandish song?

Isn't that called bad guy or something? No, but that was in the trailer. Yeah, wait, Breitper. Wait, Breit. The evil Superman kid. I never saw Breitur. I saw Breit. That came out in 2019.

I never saw it. 2019? I never saw the movie. I saw the movie. Because if you know the movie, they drop it right after. Okay. I don't recall that. I thought the movie came out in 1995.

I thought that was like an older. Not actually. Right. But I thought it was like a old movie. They do do that, though. Yeah. You do that. Before we, there's a death in this one.

Oh, man, Alice. Alice dies. Quickly, did this death affect you at all? I think it affected me in the sense that like, oh, Agatha's like kind of actually really turning bad now. I'm going to be honest, just because of the tone of the series, I'm like, all these wishes coming back at the end. Here's the thing.

Probably. I like, did you get what I mean? I was like, oh, she ain't really dead. I mean, it was, it was tough because, and again, we, actor is the bad guy. Right. Right. And so even when she takes Alex Wu's powers, right, and everybody, she's like, no, I'm trying to. And then they go outside and he's like, hey, that was kind of messed up.

She was like, what's going to do about a little, nigger? What's up? Yep. Yeah. Are you sure? What's up? What you're trying to do? They're like, oh, dang.

Agatha, I wasn't familiar with your game. Okay. We didn't get into, in typical Midnight Boys fashion, direct story points. We talked more big picture stuff. If you look back at the direct story points in this show, Agatha's relationship with her son, a Nicky Scratch. Nicky Scratch. And what that trauma means to her. The Ouija Board.

The trial, this particular trial being about Agatha singularly was very interesting. and that leading to Wiccan becoming Wiccan, Alice becoming dead, and Agatha kind of becoming bad. She sees power, she can't help but siphon it off. It seems that the show is going to actually question the very nature of Agatha and what that means to the concept of being a witch.

Now, when you look at the show, the show is always indicting what we think witches are, but witches really are. They ride on broomsticks this time, and it's like, cliche, all of that stuff. Domesticity.

Agatha being the witch that we learn about witches through. And her actually fighting back and forth with whether or not witches are bad or whether or not witches are cool is kind of an interesting thread to me. That's why Alice's death, while not emotionally super a big deal to me, still means a lot in the show.

because the show seems to be talking about the nature of witches in this world. And what it means going forward, too, because at the end, we can put to Agatha and the other two witches into the goop. And I imagine they have to get out and work together, right? And how do you work with somebody, right? And how do you work with somebody who just killed your homie? Also, you know what I mean? Important note, Rio stayed behind. Man.

What was you doing them to the body? theories abound that she has something to do with death shout out House of Art House of Ard put this on my radar last week and in this episode right when they say

death is there real like laughs and I'm like I'm Lady Death I'm going to lie to y'all it's hilarious it would be hilarious to me because in the comic books Thanos is very very like

all up on death if Thanos was just like Aubrey Plaza this whole time would be hilarious later. I understand. A crash out for the whole galaxy. Yeah, man. If Thanos snapped half of life for Aubrey Plaza, I'm shaking his hand.

Yep. I understand. I see what you like. What kind of a simp shit? I understand. You say half the people in the universe could die because of Aubrey Plaza? I get it. Thanos is the biggest simp in old fiction. Are you saying right now that you would kill half of the Earth's population for

Aubrey Plaza? I don't condone the behavior, but I understand. Wait, what? Honestly, this is a good question. I understand. If we were Thanos and you had to snap. half of the universe for one celebrity crush who would have been. Damn.

There's no fucking, there's nobody. What? Nobody. You don't kill half, forget about half the people. I'm not killing half the little dogs of the world. All these little dogs, running around. You got to, you can't. See, this is what you'll do.

Well, you got to remember, he did that of his own volition. He was like, if I snap half life in the universe, she'll love me. Right. You can snap whatever. She didn't ask for that. I get it. But, see, now, because y'all feel guilty because you kill a little insipment. Also, you're a fucking liar

because you were the first motherfucker who would be like, hey, no, I wouldn't. No, no, no, no. We just turned it to the Vic Knight boys. We want to kill half of the fucking puppies in the whole fucking world. You just, like, it's, get off your fucking high.

I'm not getting the worst. I don't think that this fucking hypothetical is right. We're sparing moot. We're sparing moot. By the way, Vic rehabilitated himself. There's no piece of ass in, in this world. that's worth snapping.

You're such a liar, man. You are such a liar, bro. Because somebody jump in. Is there, is there, is there, is there, is there, is there, is there anybody, is there any hot woman in the world that's worth killing? You know what? You're not doing now that Dylan O'Brien? You would have half the life in the universe for Kaleekin. They can fuck none.

They go, what the fuck. Are you? Are I wrong about this? Guys, guys, am I wrong about this? I. also wouldn't do it. It's only because he brought up the animals. If you had a choice,

if you're like, Beyonce's like snap half the world away, I'd be like, come on, man, you're not. Oh, my Lord. Y'all not real earners, man. Y'all not real earners. Am I, uh,

Kerm? Black dude. Kerm's in the bathroom. Oh, Jesus. Wow. Age Lacey's not farting. Here's the thing, man. I'm doing it.

Me personally. Kaley Seinfeld? She brought out on the list. Oh, no. You know, bro. He's a lot. I'm telling you, bro. You know what I think another thing about this is, though?

I think I've been watching too many of those interrogation videos I told y'all about. Oh, wait and see or discover? Cold interrogation videos, bro. One, y'all got to go watch you. I got to go. I'm not going to, like, support this nigga. But y'all should watch it. I don't want to say his name.

I'm not going to support him. Because he went to jail. Do your own research. A white boy from Michigan that got into a fight. He was one of the worst interiors. And I don't want people to be hurt. Do you put hands on it? No, man, interrogation video.

These people do crazy stuff. I can't see myself being in some of these situations, bro. You being, not at your gooner peak? Nah, not at my gooner peak, bro. I just want it to be by myself. I don't want other people to have. Oh, my. I mean, they are a reclusive bunch.

Oh, my. They are reclusive bunch. I don't want to be by myself. Hey, yo. It's so funny, like, when you are a real true gooner, like, when you a real true gooner, you try to get people out of the house for all different types of reason.

Oh, my God. Like, you know. What was your biggest move? You were just like, hey, yo. Like, I just, well, you couldn't get your parents to leave, right? But like, you know, when your home boy was over and you had enough madden. Let's say, okay, so let's say you had to be somewhere at eight.

What's Pete gooning hours, by the way? Well, it's whatever you got the time. Okay, right. That's the thing I think about a goo. There's no time. Yeah. It really do. It's a hurry.

It really is hurry up and wait. Only 24 hours, seven days a week. Let's say you got to be somewhere at eight, right? Yep. Your homeboy comes over like noon. Y'all going to play some mat. And you think, okay, we got four hours of Mad at the very most, which leaves four hours premium goon time, right?

You need four hours? Back in the day, yeah. What do you want? So it's like a whole thing. You go, whatever. I just imagine. It's a dark room. So look.

Look. But for some reason, your homeboy, you know, maybe he went through something. He keeps wanting to play the Madden or whatever. He's lingering. He can't go home. He doesn't want to go home. If somebody's at his house or something like that, you got to find ways to get this nigga out of the crib because you don't want to just be like leave.

Right. Why can't you just be like to your homeboy? Hey, it's like, I'm going to bed. I mean, you got to go. I can't do that. Can't do that. You'll never live it down. Right, right.

But what you will do is sometimes you have to go somewhere. Oh, my God. You have to go somewhere. Sometimes you have to be like, hey, I got to go to Walmart. So, no, nah, I'll stay when I stay just running through. Come here when you get back. Like, I'm going to be when you get back. Like, I'm going to be in the lab a little bit.

Being in the Madden's called being in the lab. I'm like, no, I don't want you to be here. If my dad gets here and goes, why somebody in the house by myself, it's like, your dad's known me since the first grade. I don't think he's going to trip. Hey, I got to go to Walmart. Get up and leave now. And then you drive, wait until they get away.

And then you just come back and go on all kinds of different things. You've got to manipulate ways to get them out of the house. Sometimes ways to get your mom to leave. Oh, man. Like, why don't you go see Mom? Here, go take Mom to lunch. It's for going. Giving your mom money.

Because, you know, another thing that you don't want to do is you don't want to take the chance of. Right. Coming home early. Well, no, no, no, no, no. You just don't want to. I think it's a sin to jack off when your mom is home. Your dad, cool. He'll understand it's something.

But I think it's a sin To jack off why you're gonna stay Like when my mom was home I couldn't do it Right You had to have You had to draw the line Yeah All right

Latest episode of Penguin A lot happened You know We have Penguin Oz and who's our Falcone Chris Amulity What's her? Oh Sophia

Sophia They team up They're hitting the streets With a new drug called Bliss We have a very Vick-centric episode Where we get a flashback

To the flow the no man's land. You see where he comes from. Van, where are you at with the penguin after? I believe this is the third episode. I'm loving that. I'll pay off my penguin joker theme.

So Penguin is, he is the penguin. He has the penguin DNA, like more so than the Joker does. But this is like, this show is actually, to me, geared towards people

who are fed up with nerd content, are fed up with the comic book ification of fiction storytelling on these things. Because this really is the show while having the penguin and introducing a new penguin and the penguin that I think is authentic to being called the penguin,

the show is kind of operating as a high-stakes crime show. as well as any high-stakes crime show this way that I've seen in a long time. Yeah. In terms of twist turns, who's going to do this, who's going to do what, we're trying to get this group,

we're trying to get that group, we're trying to do this. This doesn't seem like even, it doesn't seem like a realm where anyone could save the day. It seems like, like it doesn't seem, this doesn't seem like a place

where one person is going to have the answer. And I think Batman actually works best when it feels like he'll never be able to finish the job. Because I was going to ask you, because you're a pluck radar guy. This was a Vic, very Vic heavy episode.

I think the actor who plays Vic, very, very talented, did a lot this episode. I am wondering, though, I got to get rid of the pluck a little bit. A little plucky. You know what I'm saying? He's not that plucky. He's not that plucky. He's actually not good at his job.

Kind of. Last week. Also, he'd be fucking up his job in ways where I'm like, hey, bro, come. I'm like, oh, I think he's fucking clutch. No, yeah, he's. When it matters, he is.

I think he, I think he. Spilling all the drugs on the dance floor, scaring? Okay, he was having a panic attack for a second. There's a lot going on. Like, I'm not to sit here and say that, like,

in the moments that matter, yeah, like the first episode, getting Oz out of that jam with Sophia. And then the last episode, when I just ramming the car in there, Big move He gets the job done

But there have been some moments Putting the the diamonds in the car The drugs on the thing But he was over that You got all that You know the cop in this episode You know what I mean? Like I mean

He shook I mean he lost his money But like that Oz was like That's also a difference between Not being good at your job And learning your job Yeah

He's just gotten to this world Yeah And he's learning fast And I think he's The I think he has a knack for it Yeah And the fact that he has a knack for it continually shows itself in the moments where it's highest leverage.

I think there's a little bit of like a, it's a rope gimmick for a character like this, but it really is effective. When he is clearly anxious and more ill at ease and not in his element, his stutter is worse. It is like visibly worse. And when he, when Oz has gotten him to talk about his first, family or how confident he is when he's doing his job or working together, it is very minimized. Still there, but I think the, like, the elevated acting that it takes to, like, have an affect like that and, like, carry that through, like, portrayals of your character's

actual mood and emotional state is really good in this show. I think this was a fantastic display of how good he is in this show, and I loved this episode. I liked the episode a lot, too. I think what it did that was very interesting is show the Riddler attack from another view, right? And so the Riddler is really so funny because his whole thing was, we got to get those rich people, man. And we're going to kill. We're going to do all these rich people, man. All these people are above us.

Anything better than us? How do we do that? Ruin every poor person. Let's kill all the brown and the brown poor people in this town. I'm going to be honest. amazing actor. If I was in Gotham and I saw Paul Dano, I'm like, he ain't doing nothing for me.

I don't really put... This is my biggest critique. I think as a country, we need to make crack great again. Because, you know what I'm saying? No, no, no. Get the drug trade back. No, because sometimes when I'm watching these fictional worlds, I'm like, dog, push it, you're not going to be rapping about no bliss.

Like, there's a fucking world completely changes if everybody's on cracking that motherfucker. It's like a little different. I think it would be better. Can you imagine a penguin's like, I'm introduced crack to the Constitution? Nah, man. It got to be saying it got it got a drug, bro. I'm going to say to right now.

If you introduce the crack epidemic into the Batman world, the character completely fucking changed. For the worst? Wait, you're telling me. It totally changed. Oh, my God. If you introduce crack into Gotham, like, it, you imagine a crack in Jordan. Because part of it is like, you know,

the drug bliss, you can't let it go. Yeah, that's for everybody. I can't take it serious. It's like Molly. I'm like, what? Batman's going to be beating up people to take a mommy. That's what I'm saying. But if it's crack, though, he's going to be going to black neighborhoods and being

up folks. He already does that already. But it's going to be so explicit. Not really. It's going to be good about showing black man, Batman not just beating the hell out of black people. If it's crack, he's going to be going, brother, it's going to be bad. I can't.

I can't take my gangster. That's what they're going to be cast them as goons. Can they ass beat by Batman each week? Bro, I can't take my gang so seriously when they like, hey, yo, I got this new drug bliss. You want to try? I'm like, two things. It's about the competition between them. Because imagine fucking Batman pulling up in the wire.

Think about how fucked up that is. It's the greatest thing in the wire would be amazing. That would be the greatest thing ever. I bet you would like that. No, it's so funny. I'm not even, I don't care. But think about like, the Barksdale's is like, it's like, Stringer and Avon Barksdale and all of them. And they're trying to outsmart McNulty and the rest of them.

Just think about Bodie and them. Oh, shit, it's the Batmobile. It's the back. You know what I'm saying? Batman pulling the, bro. That's too much for them, bro. I don't know. I got cooked.

I hate Batman forever. He's just beating the shit at Slim Charles. I'm like, God damn, man. They can't do nothing to him, bro. Wait, you're telling me, you're really telling me. They couldn't fuck with Omar. You would not watch the HBO show. You wouldn't watch Batman going against Strygab Bell.

Bro, Omar didn't have no utility bell. Omar didn't have no batterangs. Omar was the Batman of West Baltimore. Bro, Batman kick up fucking everybody ass, bro. My name is my name. Bot. Wallace still alive at Batman there. Huh?

Wallace still alive with Batman there. Now, he's breathing through his life. Wallace would have been Robin. Come on, man. Wallace has Robin. Yeah. If Batman would have been in the world of the wire, then Batman would have been fucking peeping that they was going to kill Wallace.

And just as they was going to shoot Wallace, just as they was going to shoot Wallace, like, first of all, poot, like, they're done, right? Like, they're fucked. Just as they was going to shoot Wallace, Batman rolls up, kicks fucking Bodie out the window, poot down the stairs, and he goes to Wallace. You have a choice. You can live this life with these thugs. Where you could change.

Come live with me. So Mr. Stallone is Batman? That's how that nigger sounds. And then Wallace becomes Robin. So Damien is in the school season, Damien is just going to the Baltimore school system? Oh, Jesus. I don't know if Damien is there yet.

No, he's in a jury for sure. Duky don't fall off of Batman. Here's the thing. Duky ain't going to turn to the pipe if Bruce Wayne is around. I'm telling you, I'm just saying, I'm saying Batman just does. doesn't work in that world. Batman would clean them

niggas up. Bro, the body's in the vaguest that would have been solved in 15 minutes. Oh my God. 15 minutes. But you don't see fake serial killer? You'd be like, hey, he said the Batman.

That's the bat. This is the thing that the penguin does where I'd be like, damn, this is really the underworld. This is the Gotham underworld. And then when they was dancing in the club, and so he's like, people need this. People need.

Look at this. He's just doing it for drugs. Can you like, come on, bro. I mean, I get what you saying. Not really I don't I just don't think that I don't want no crack

Gotham bad enough I don't think I don't want no crack in Gotham I don't need nobody That's just a bummer You know what I'm saying Like let them have the bliss

And they can fight over the bliss He's like here's the thing First of all Dropheads Drophead is a crazy You can't call him niggas Drophead And he's just like

Doing the drops in his eyes I'm like I can't take These drug addicts seriously Yeah I mean, I could do whatever. But, but so look, Penguin is the type of show that when I watch it, it like in no way feels like in no, I know that I'm in the world. Yeah.

But in no way feels superheroie or comic book. No. It has nothing. When I say nothing, like nothing. And I am starting to wonder and people can get mad if they want to a little bit, if that's a little bit of a cheap trick, right? And I like it. I like the iteration of the character.

It's essentially the same feeling that Todd Phillips gave us with the first Joker. It's not, and let me tell you what I mean. I'm here. I'm here. I'm listening. I'm agreeing with Van here. I'm listening. It's like, okay, what we're going to do is kind of take

this out of the comic book world, mash the character up a little bit to where you can't give it, and give you a story that really doesn't have very much to do with the actual lore of the character. But by calling it the penguin,

you automatically have an end with the character that makes you curious about it. But then it's a story that has like, right. And so, I'm not saying that this character is not the penguin like Arthur Fleck is it a joke. If some other fat guy kills him at the end of this show. And then that would be amazing

That would be fucking great You know If you know It's like Take some fucking A homo And then pow pow Somebody

Like the whole deal Oh my god I do understand What they're doing And I appreciate What they're doing But when I'm watching the show And this is a testament

To the show I'm not fucking thinking about Batman I'm not thinking about Gotham City I'm not thinking about none of that stuff When we had the flashback

that I didn't know was a flashback to Vic Hell of a way to start the show. Yeah, hell of a way to start the show. Before the flood, I'm like, oh, shit. Like, the fact that we have even a thing that was a threadline through

to that first Batman film, I didn't feel like it cheapened it, but, like, I literally forgot until that happened. Then I'm like, oh, right, we're in Gotham and the Ridler blew up a dam and flooded the entire city. I forgot about that.

And that's his entire, like, imbitus of losing his family and being a lot more on his own and wanting something better for his life. Quick question about speaking of wanting better for his life, if your girl showed up and was like, hey, we got to leave God. Oh, the second that he was like, that he gave her that money, and I was like, I'm going to figure out, I'm like, oh, he's, they're fucked.

I'll tell you something. It ain't a woman on this planet bad enough to make me ride from New York to California on the bus. That's insane. That could have been a bus to the airport. Those. Steve. You'll be doing shit like that on first. You know damn well that they're not riding a bus to the airport.

She's standing there. He gave her like a grand. No, he didn't. He can get a flight out of a grand. He got a guy and a half. He gave her probably like 500. 500 bucks. She spent that shit.

You get a flight out of here for 500. Here's the thing. She bought drops with that. That's how I know y'all. I know y'all have never rid in the bus. That's how I know y'all have never ridden the bus. I used to have to ride like the Ktown bus from like, I think I would go from New York to Philly. and I'd be like, this is the worst experience

in my life. Yeah, no, don't take the bus. Never take, like. Wait, we have to say something. There are a lot of people out there watching it that economic, right, right, right. They have to, they have to ride the bus. And I'm saying, I've been one of those people.

Sure. And one of the things in my life that made me strive for more is I got to a point that said, I can't fucking do it anymore. Right. So the moment I saw them about to ride the, I knew he wouldn't get on that bus. You expected this motherfucker to get out of a mazorati. A purple mazorah,

Walk over there and go on the thing with a... Here's a thing. To be fair, I was like moving to Cali with a beautiful woman. Versus... Staying here with Oz Cobb. In Gotham? In Gotham?

Shit is bombed out. We're living in FEMA tents. That's like, what's his face? That was like when, uh, who's the YouTube TikToker when he went to the Bay area? And he's just like, y'all, he's like, y'all living in Gotham. That wasn't right, bro. That was crazy. That was nuts.

Don't do it. Keith Lee went up there. He was like, this is the people whole community. He was like, it's smelly up here. So you're like, you're like, you're like, you know it smelled crazy over there. That was nuts, man. But what was it? What would his Gotham?

But he'd be like, so I went to Gotham. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Guys, you know the food in Gotham is terrible. Got to be awful. The food scene is terrible. That's got to be awful. No, it's got to be bad.

It's got to be bad. Come on. Probably. Yeah. I mean, I honestly don't, I honestly don't understand how much. was to live in Gotham. Like, there was this, like, TikTok trend, like, maybe a couple years ago

where, like, it was, like, gunshots outside. It's like, man, when, you know, fucking, the Batman is, uh, blowing up your car to fight Joker, but rent is $3 a month. Yeah. Like, that's how it's got to be to live in Gotham. Yeah.

Rent's $3, but everything gets a stroke, bro. I was going to Temple University. I was living in Philly. Here's the thing. I hear gunshots every night before I went to bed, but the rent, unbelievable. Just, like, sometimes, you got to make a call. You like, hey.

Got to make a call. There was no Batman, though. No Batman. The show. Question. This show ends on what I think is the most precarious cliffhanger of all of them. I do not see how he's going to get out of this. Wait, can we go out of this one?

This is quite literally one of the funniest moments I've ever seen. Oz, he's like, I'm so sorry. I sent you to Arco. Oh, yeah. Did it down. My phone. Yeah. Motherfucking Vic comes in, he pops open the door.

He's like, what about Sophie? He's like, leave her, leave him. I was dying. I was throwing. This nigger, he's a drug out of himself because he's high on the fucking crime life. We're in it now. We're in it now. He's high on friendship, bro.

He's like, you get back from me. Let's go. Get rid. I'm so, I'm sorry. So the show does, it's, I'm sorry. It's great. It's great storytelling. Like, this is the episode.

where you feel like, and you know that you don't have a million episodes of the show, but this is the episode where you feel like that he's finally gotten through to Sophia and that he's able to make her, and you see the pushpool between them. Oh, yeah.

But it's like a nice, uneasy alliance. A little power, a little power struggle right there. But you think that he's finally done it. He's helped her win. All of their little schemes are coming to fruition. You think that the cliffhanger of the show is going to be Vic, but it's not. It's the fact that he's been found out. His double dealing is now on Front Street.

And Vic has to crash the car. And I'm like, they really have a big job in the next episode to me. How many episodes is this? Eight. It's eight. So we're almost halfway through? Yeah, next week is the Sophia episode. And then we'll see what it looks like after that.

To your point, I think that's the kind of television that really means something. When you write yourself into a corner like that, where Sophia knows that you've been out there talking to the Moronies doing this thing. Mid-season. How in the hell, Gus the Penguin? This is how you make your money right here. It better fucking make sense, though. If it makes sense, if they can pull this off. This is an and-or-level moment for this type of.

Oh, right. All right, guys. Get that dip off that shit. Why not? I would I compare the shit to the Supraima. Wait, wait, wait, wait, we have to see it. Y'all got to stop nut-hugging Andor, too. Andor was a great show, but Andor is not like,

a show can be as good as Andor, man. Yeah, no, no, I don't disagree with you. This, I'm not saying this show. A show can be as good as Andor. There are levels to this. Like, Penguin is not. It's not really, really good. No, but I'm saying that, like, it takes it seriously enough to where the-

I'm enjoying Pinkwood as much as I enjoy Andor. Yeah. I am. It doesn't, and got no. I'm in the five. and I will never be respected for it. I had a animal was like that. I fought every day for a sunrise I'll never be able to see.

That was bars. Nah, man. Until we get that, maybe. He was cooking like that. There's no one way out. I know I'm a hater, like, but we, Penguin hasn't, doesn't have that level of writing. We'll have to see it if they can, if the penguin can get out of this jam where he has,

he has left Sophia with their biggest ops, right? and he now has to reconcile that, I can't say words, has to reconcile that with Sophie and somehow get back under good graces and we're sitting there and it makes sense and we're like, we understand and it's good, that I don't know, I'd have to see it first, but then, yeah, the show was doing an amazing job.

But it's also this weird tension because I'm like, I don't feel the safety of plot armor around any of these characters. Maybe not even Penguin. Well, he has plot armor. He's definitely got plot armor. Maybe until like the last, last episode, but do we even know that?

I mean, they're not killing off the penguin. Why would you? Come on. Come on. Maybe? That seems like a- All right, Steve. Killing off the penguin.

Why not? No. See, you always be doing this. You always be like, why not? I mean, they could. I mean, they could. But I don't think they are, but they could.

They could. What is it? I mean, you know, Colin Farrell say he doesn't want to play the character anymore. Yeah. But it's the fact that, like, the show's operating in a way where I'm like, really, anything can happen. And I don't want to play the fast suit? He said he doesn't want to do this one.

the suit's crazy. I mean, here's a thing. You gotta think, this is eight episodes. That's like four hours in the chair. Yeah, he was probably, I think,

I think probably like for a movie, you probably come in for like a week, two weeks or something like that. But for a movie or TV show, when you're coming in for like three or four months, yeah, it's probably, it's probably,

no, you think that this, I think what worries me about this show in terms of what it means for the Batman is I thought the original Batman, I love that, I love the movie, um, but Reeves was very self-serious

and I think that like this show takes itself seriously. Insangely seriously. Do you think he's going to double down on that self-seriousness or do you think with the second show? No, no, this is the world. Yes, he's going to double down. It'll be even more serious. That scares me a little because I wanted

after the first Reeves film, I'm like, I do want a little bit more fun. Oh, but those Dark Knight, that Dark Night trilogy is, insanely serious. Is it weird? Have you watched the Dark Night and the Dark Night Rises recently? Like, it does have moments where there's levity, it's fun, there's action.

It's a little pop here. There's funny stuff in the movie, but those movies fucking mean it. And the first Batman maybe is a little bit more dour. See, I think there's one thing to be serious, and there's another thing to be like emo. The first, that

Batman movie is like, it's dower. It's emo, right? And there's not a lot. But you know who you know who the comic relief in the movie is? It's the penguin. And there's levity and I think quote unquote fun to be had in Penguin. Oh yeah.

There is. There's the vibes a little lighter in Penguin from the Batman. I watch the show and I'm just like, Batman 2. Dog, it's going to be a My Chemical Romance movie for Twitter. I'm going to love it. You know?

If it's the black parade, just walking out. I will say about Batman 2, it'll be interesting to see where the character is when the character is a little bit more confident being Batman. At the end of the movie, it seems like he finds his hero a little bit more. He gets it a little bit more. He takes maybe more of a bird's eye view of Gotham rather than just being the avenging angel of Gotham. Maybe that changes

the portrayal of the character or how we get the character. Maybe. Maybe. I'm not sure. I really don't know. I like the movie, but that's not a great film to rewatch. I do think that this is very... I watch these episodes more. I think There's a lot more happening in these ones. I do think Oz is funny. Like in this episode where they burst in on the guy as he's cheating on the wife. That's a great scene. And again, it's playing to that insecurity that he has where I'm like,

if you push his buttons, just enough, like you can get him to snap. Didn't kill him, though. Didn't kill him. Didn't kill him. He's learning. I don't know if I'm dead. The first time I'm going to be, I'm not like, yo, I'm coming back to save you. I'm like, I'm out of you.

But again, like, that's that great speech. where he had in the bathroom, which is like the crux of the whole scene where it's just like, you think I'm keeping you hostage? Like, you're good at this. Also, you like this. At the beginning of the episode, you saw that there's something in Vic. It's not only Oz's

influence over Vic that is keeping Vic close to him. There's something in Vic where Vic wants a little bit more than his father had. And he says it? Yeah. Like, he likes it. And almost every character like Vic gets to a point to where they asked himself,

am I in a situation that I can't get out of, or do I like this? And that's exactly where, like, Penguin is right now in his journey, and Vic is just starting to flirt with that idea. Like, it's when you see him at the end where he's actually, like, genuinely apologizing to Sophia, and he's, like, I can't help myself. Like, I wriggle out of it because it's the thing,

like a person like me, a guy like me, can get something better out of this life and the things that I can get like I'm going to do whatever I can. And like he's honest about Sophia with that. And it's immediately cutting to Vic having this choice to be like,

all right, am I going to find the thing that I'm told is nice and that I'm better than or am I going to reach for something that I have a flare for? And he can see it. He can see down that road. And there's that great mentor mentee

that's like actually, working and I'm buying. That motherfucker's getting paid a grand a fucking week. Once you spend $1 to not a rat, that's great. But imagine, you know,

health dental. To bring it back to the wire a little bit, it's kind of like he can either be boaty, he can be Wallace. I know, but like,

do you think, do you think Penguin could cross Vic at the end of the show? Probably if you had to. Yeah. You know what I mean? And like, that's,

that's the genius. That's the magic. Yeah. We know that the penguin is a slimy, slippery bastard. Right? At the end of the day,

does it make sense for him in how he's crossing can he find a heart with Vic or is he going to sell Vic down the river like with a chance because everybody else everybody else I'll sell you for a half a bag of chips

and a ham sandwich And I'm very curious to see what it's going to say about that character if there comes a choice to where is he going to cross Vic or is he going to stay loyal to him? He threw a teenage girl under the bus and sent her ass to Arkham

this motherfucker is a like I know like like lunch like bro who's to say that a turn can't happen. I mean, I don't know what the future for Vic is in this entire world. I wouldn't be surprised if Vic ends up screwed over in some way. But I also wouldn't be surprised if the show makes the point that that's the best thing for him.

That the best thing for him to be would be betrayal by his mentor or the best thing would be for him, no matter how messy to get away from all it is before he gets too deep. too deep into it, right? And so I don't know where that goes. Or, you know, the kid who plays Vick talking about he wants to play Miles Morales. So obviously, he's not looking for the Vic Spinoff Series. All right, all right. We don't need a big spinofferson. We got to be real.

Every single time, we got a new motherfucker in this shit. They're like, oh, Miles Morales. I'm like, let's. Everybody want to play Miles Morales. Like, let's calm down. You know what I'm saying? Let's calm down. They want to play him.

But it's it is everybody. Every single, every, yeah, man. You know, hey, man, who would you like to play, man? Miles Morales. They got like 90 Miles Morales is running around. And I don't, here's the thing, maybe I'm too protective of Miles Morales, but like, come on, y'all. Come on, you got a little too much dip on your trip.

I need to see more. I need to. I mean, it's a hard role to play. And like, look, we're not going to get, I think the best thing for bringing Miles Morales to the MCU would be if Tom Holland's non-Spiderman movie career

takes off. What? Tough. Tom Holland is going to take up a lot of real estate at Spider-Man until he stops flopping every other time he's on. Oh yeah, that's tough. He got to do some TV or something. He's Iron Man Jr., really right now?

In the same way that Robert Downey just can't help will come back to the MCU, I think it's been a tough time in the wilderness for Tom. Robert won an Oscar. He did win Oscar. But that's after, right? I don't think he was on like Oscar bait type stuff until a lot of everybody. He was, I mean,

he was always a great actor though. No, no, no, wait, hold on, hold on. I'm being fair to him. But Robert Duny's Sherlock Holmes and he had movies where people liked. But Robert Duny Jr. was also like nominated for an Oscar way back when before I. No, I'm more so mean in the same way

that like, if the check clears RDJ's like, I'll keep coming back as Ironman. I see, I think there is a world where Tom Holland is the lead in a lot of these Avengers movies. If he, again, that's if, that's if the other things, if he doesn't have any stinkers in the box office. Yeah, my thing with Robert Downer Jr. is he didn't have to come back. He was already like, he had his, like, his problems, but he was already like an established Hollywood thing. He just loves it. He just, you know, love the game, let a hustle. He just loves it. Tom Holland kind of does, he got bills to pay. No, I mean, in terms of. What? What?

What fuck are you talking about? He was Spider-Man for how many years now? Guys. He's a rich. I don't know why you hate on him. He's a house husband. He dating Zendaya. You don't like Tomah?

Tomahlet made that money. What I'm saying is... But he's not doing anything else, to your point. He's got to keep making Spider-Man. So what you're saying is, it's getting awkward in the house. Z is like, A. Tom. Zand doesn't need Spider-Man.

Yeah. Definitely doesn't need Spider-Man. You know, that's what I'm saying. Like, okay, he's not that established an actor. got bills to pay, what else you're going to do besides Spider-Man? I'm agreeing with you. He's got to make Spider-Man movies. So imagine this.

You're Tom Holland and you got to, A, like, build that career post-Spiterman and keep Zendaya. Okay. How do we do this? How do you do it? Well, I don't know that. I think it's unfair to Zendaya to be like he got to accomplish. You think she's coaching him to be like, come on, you got to get out the house.

I think she probably has a... Come on, man. Let's go make Spider-Man for him. I think she loves her boyfriend and her. think it's okay. Yeah. What is it going on with you this episode? Nothing. I'm just saying that to me, I want to protect dogs and Zendaya's honor. I never saw you be so respectful in your life, bro.

The Tom Holland thing is interesting because he did that movie, he did the cherry movie. He did the thing with Daisy Ridley. He did uncharted. And it's not hitting on any type of level. And I hear the Romeo and Juliet reviews aren't that great. And people are asking the question, he's he a Spider-Man merchant. Right? Like, without Spider-Man, will we even hear this dude? And I think it's tough because, you know, he's not young anymore, though, right? He's like, Mike.

He's going to be 20-16. He still looks at 16. He'll be just fine. The Fred Astaire movie's going to be a big deal. He also needs the right role. Oh, yeah, he is the Fred Astaire movie. Yeah, right? So it's not the end of the road,

but then you do start to ask questions. Like, who are you without Spider-Man? You know what I'm saying? And I want better for him. I hope, like, the Fred Astaire movie goes crazy. But we've seen the track. record and outside of Spider-Man's kind of looking like a little Mickey Mouse. You know what I think his problem was, he didn't do what a lot of his other, like, co-stars

before him did, where it's like Daniel Radcliffe when he was playing Harry Potter or Robert Pattinson after the Twilight movies. I think you actually need to not go the movie star route and you got to get with like the safeties or kind of young. You got to do some weird stuff. You got to do some like weird stuff. So when you like come back and Robert Pattinson's like, I'm Batman now, you had seen him try enough. Like when his, if his movie fails, but it's a newer newest director and it's interesting. We're like, oh, Robert Pattinson's making interesting choices where I think Tom Holland has tried to go the,

I'm trying to be a superstar. By the way, and it took Robert Pattinson to a second to get into that. For sure. But we gave him time because he wasn't going straight. And then he got to a point who was like, let's get a little grimy and let's see what I can do. But would we have taken Robert Pattinson seriously if he went right from Twilight to bat, we'd be like,

if he had the same trajectory, you mean? Like if he was still doing the movie for teens, if he was doing like a maze runner-like type of... I mean, to reality, Zendaya did the same thing, right? A little bit. Zendaya was a kid performer, and then really what made people take Zendaya as seriously as a... as an actress is when she played a character that was a little grimeier.

Euphoria, yeah. Yeah, I mean, they have... There's the Shadamay comp to Tom Holland, because, like, they're the same age, right? And Shadamade. Never put in tightness. on. Probably not, right? But with Dune and

like the Bob Dylan movie, like all the stuff he's doing. All right, that Bob Bill Dylan movie looks crazy. I posted this where I'm just like, I think Walk Hard ruined this movie already before I was a jump. And all the musician biofix. But, and I've said this, I don't, I think

Timothy can play Spotted Man, but Tom can't play Bob Dylan. Yeah, I like the performers are all levels. They're all their levels. It's different levels, right? And so, like, I don't know, I don't, I don't, like, I'd have to see it from Tom, man. Like, that's ultimately where it comes down to.

Like, I'd have to really, really see it. Because Pattinson, I always felt like, when I first saw he was cast a bad man, my first, and this thought was, we're from Twilight, but then you think about it for like three seconds, by like what Bruce Wayne is, what Batman is. And you're like, oh, he might cook, let's see it. The movie comes out, we're like, oh, this was awesome. He did a good job. see like Tom Holland get at you like

it's not there right and so ultimately also you haven't seen it yet he just has to he has a little he's young enough to the point where like there might be something for him later but like in this moment right now and he's having a ridiculously good start I'm 28 I feel old

he's 28 let me tell you something right now I think what this comes back to is the penguin is cooking yes yes and Tom Holland is cooking as Spider-Man. Right.

He's not at home like, hey, baby, what you want for dinner? I thought that was going, I thought you were like, Tom Holland is at home cooking for Zendaya. Real quick. Can I be honest, did I miss some kind of update?

Why are we painting Tom Holland as a Zendaya as like Mr. Zendaya? This is the internet. This is not us. This is the internet. Have I missed this? I haven't seen this.

You definitely missed this. Because Zendaya is always booked and busy. She went an Emmy. She's out there doing her thing consistently. Big star. She's out there with Salomey doing Dune too, all that stuff.

They met on his movie. Yeah. Again. Again, but it's just that movie. Right, where is Tom? Yeah. Where is Tom? We season day out there.

Where's Tom? Tom at home, he's cooking and he's cleaning. Yeah. Y'all niggas is so proud. I think he's also, if we're real, I think niggas are salty. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely.

You know what I'm salty. Nobody really wants to be like, that's what happens when you date is and diet. There people like, I did that mirror selfie when he was in the Spider-Man outfit. He was so mad. I fell to my knees, bro. I fell to my knees.

He was the Yu-Gi-o meme. It should be. It was like, oh, man. Must be nice. Must be nice to be Spider-Man. That's a wrap. On Friday, turning into new episodes of House of Arm,

Button Match. But Match is doing so well. I asked for an episode of Budmash to be made. I was told to jam it. That's fine. I have any problem with him. Our producers are Steve, the Fartter Alman.

Yes. Apologize to O'Lea. Profusely. Jonathan, the Black Void, Kerma. Christ. Alea O'Brien-Denaris, Jomi, these player at dinner on socials hashtag. Jomey John Stewart Greenlander?

Hmm. I can do it. I think that you could be a beard. Yeah, man. Who would be your Hal Jordan? My Hal Jordan? Like, actually. Who would be your house?

It has to be somebody in your life. Who would be your Hal Jordan? Mike Trudell. Shout out, Shout out Mike Trudeau. A Lakers reporter. That's my guy. He'd be a great hall joint.

Shout out to him. Terrible answer. An additional production from Arjuna, the watch. I hate it. Romga pal. Chuck, take us out. Shout out Kerm is dark as the void.

The penguin is racing up the charts. And hide your kids and wives. From Steve Allmints Farts. It was a cheese stick. It was cheese. The cheese. You shouldn't have the cheese. There's got to be a lied somewhere.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll tell you why the last thing, then we can move on to Joker. Oh, sure. Oh, you promise? Okay. Because this happened and it was a very upsetting situation. Right.

I was in the shower. Okay. And I had the lotion with me in the shower. And my mom and my sister and my grandmother were in the front room. And my sister tell me. Wait, who was in the house? My mom, my sister and my grandmother were in the front room. Oh, my mom, bro.

You need to be locked. And I was in. I was in the shower, right? And it was going down in the shower. Under the jail. And then so my mom was, they was getting ready to go somewhere. And my mom was looking for the lotion. Ebony tells her story so funny.

And so she was looking for the lotion and Ebony now out so the door, Ebony knew what the lotion was. And I threw the lotion over the thing. Wait, threw it over the. Over the shower. Oh, like a grenade? Just like. Yeah, threw it over there.

And so Ebony goes, made out. So my sister goes, she goes out. So you know, what Mom and Momo said about you. And I was like, what? She was like, so I go in there and I bring the shower. I bring the lotion to Mom and Mom's, and Mom goes, where's the lotion?

And she goes, Van had it in the shower with him. And then she went, Mom did look to Momo and went. I was so embarrassed. I was so embarrassed. We'll be right back. I was so embarrassed that that's when I instituted the rule. I'm going to be honest. Also, it is one of the most vile things I've ever heard that

you're using the communal family lotion. Oh, this was early in the game. Right. That's like that. This was early in the game. Right, right, right. This was before you discover coconut oil and all that. Right, right.

I just move on. Lungentin and coconut oil is superior. So, Joker.