The Ringer-Verse - Analysis and Theories On ‘The Falcon and the Winter Soldier’ Ep. 1

Episode Date: March 23, 2021

Mallory Rubin enters the Ringer-Verse to give her in-depth thoughts and analysis on the premiere of 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.' She is joined by David Shoemaker to discuss where the MCU is at this point in time and where this new show will take its titular characters. They are then joined by The Ringer's Daniel Chin to dive into theories about what the appearance of the Flag-Smashers could mean for the series. Finally, they end on your mailbag questions, with Jomi Adeniran explaining why Tony Stark is leaving the Avengers broke. Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: David Shoemaker, Daniel Chin, Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The world has been forever changed. A few months ago, billions of people reappeared after five years away, sending the world into turmoil. We need new heroes, one suited for the times we're in. Symbols are nothing without the women and men that give them meaning. And this thing, I don't know if there's ever been a greater symbol. But it's more about the man who propped it up. he's gone. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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I'm Mallory Rubin, co-hosts of binge mode, head of editorial at the ringer. It is my absolute pleasure, a sincere delight to dust off this battleship box. I couldn't find Pinnacle and invite you to join us on this new podcast. feed for Marvel and so much more superhero stories, Star Wars, all things, nerd culture, and fandom. If you have not already familiarized yourself with the Ringiverse, be sure to check out the first two episodes where Van Lathen and Charles Holmes shared their instant reactions to the Falcon and the Winter Soldier premiere and Zach Snyder's Justice League. Van and Charles are going to be back with you again this coming Friday afternoon with their instant reactions to the second

Falcon Winter Soldier episode, and then I will be with you again the Tuesday after that. that to parse the latest theories, answer your questions, et cetera, et cetera. Rotating series of guests will be joining me for the Falcon Run. And there's more to come on the feed. So stay tuned. How should you stay tuned? Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ringerverse and join the Ringerverse Facebook group. And of course, follow this podcast on Spotify for wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, before we dive into today's episode, spoiler warning, of course, Today's podcast is going to feature plot details from the Falcon Winter Soldier premiere, New World Order, and we're going to be talking about the entire MCU run to date. The first three phases, phase four so far, you're going to be dipping into the comics, all of it.

You've been warned, okay? Now we'll be doing that today with David Shoemaker, the ringer's art director, the mass man show, and the press press, Fox co-host, designer of the ringerverse logo, amazing stuff, and one of the biggest comic book fans that I know. Thank you for having me. I'm coming in hot with spoilers from 1989 issues of

Captain America. That's amazing. You like Bucky are 106 years old, so that's part of why I needed you here, you know, that real grasp of history and comics expertise. Now, Sam and Bucky may not have actually shared any scenes together in this episode, but, David, you and I, we will be joining together to discuss our main takeaways from the Falcon premiere. We're going to parse our theory of the week later with Daniel Chin, and then I'm going to pop over to the timeline to answer some mailbag questions. So unless you want to run me through some of the tiger photos that are confusing you on the internet, I say we get started. Let's do it. All right. I want to talk today about the way that the past is meeting the future,

not only in the first episode of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, which we will get to in a few minutes when we dive into the story and specifically Sam and Bucky's arcs a bit more, but also in the meta and macro sense for where Marvel is with Phase 4. But before we do that, just broadly, what were your thoughts on the episode? Did you enjoy it? Yeah, I thought it was really good. I mean, I enjoyed the show a great deal,

And Wanda Vision is obviously going to be a point in comparison for a lot of the discussion, at least at the beginning of this series. But I was very excited for Wanda Vision, but sort of it took me a couple episodes to embrace the sort of in malaise. You know, sort of like embrace what they were doing there. As much as I liked it theoretically, I wasn't like, you know, jumping to my TV every Friday morning to catch up on it. This one, though, I think partly because I was so hype by the end of Wanda Vision, I was all the way in, back in, you know, the MCU brain, and I loved this episode, but I loved it,

I mean, but it took all of my MCU love, I think, to fully appreciate the sort of slow food experience that we got from, from, you know, kind of easing us back into these two characters' world.

You know, I guess the series could go in any number of directions, but I really enjoy just being in the world with these people. I feel similarly. You know, it's worth remembering, of course, that the Falcon and the Winter Soldier was actually supposed to be on the show side, on the Disney Plus TV realm and wing of the Phase 4 MCU experience, the show that kicked things off, right? And the pandemic production delays ultimately led to Wanda being first, which in some ways I had moments during the show where I was thinking, oh, I wonder what shows? change, like even something like the time frame, right, where you're thinking of how these things fit together not only with each other, but with the wider MCU. Obviously, the blip played a large

role in this episode, which we'll talk about more as we go. But broadly, my takeaway was the same. You know, I just really enjoy being back in a Marvel story. I'm excited to spend more time with Sam and with Bucky. I'm always interested to see how Marvel navigates that balance between the connective tissue and the through lines that make this feel like such a cohesive shared universe, while simultaneously establishing something that feels really like specific to each individual project, I just really enjoyed being there with them and being back in their lives and seeing where they are, how they're doing, what questions are weighing on them and what they're navigating. And then, of course, how what they're navigating ties into what the MCU and Marvel fans are navigating as well.

And I thought that was one of the more interesting things about not only this premiere, but again, because Wanda Vision did end up coming first and was ultimately our first taste of Phase 4 MCU's storytelling, that question of what the beginning of Phase 4 more broadly is really going to be like. The emphasis and the mission of Phase 4 programming for Marvel is just, just a fascinating thing to think about for a minute. How much is about moving us into the future, introducing new characters, helping us to learn more and spend more time with characters

who had been a part of the first three phases, but not in a central capacity, right? And how much of it is still about the past? And everything, everything. that's hot phase four, at least in part, looks to be built around characters from the past or at least backward looking, I think maybe more than I was expecting.

And to be clear, this is not a critique. You know, I read the stories and watch the shows and movies that I love like dozens and dozens and dozens of times over and over again and have a very hard time saying goodbye to the characters and the stories that I like. So I appreciate that. I agree. I mean, Captain America is, of all the Marvel properties, a really kind of mind-bending one to talk about in this context,

because there's no way forward in this storyline without Falcon and the Winter Soldier, right? These two characters are going to, are the lynch pens of Phase 4, and whether they grow into being one or the other is going to be a new Captain America, if they'll be dueling Captain America, as if they'll both just keep their names, but sort of take the job. I mean, there's a million ways the story could go. It's either that or a alternate timeline show just about Steve and Peggy

fucking and dancing. Exactly, right. Well, listen, the history of Captain America comic books, I mean, can be basically, you know, time stamped by the number of times Captain America has been replaced as Captain America, right? And every time the propulsion in those stories is, how are we going to get back to Captain America being Captain America, right? So you can't tell the story they're telling right now without the expectation, the built-in

expectations from not just the comic book readers, but like the way comic book stories are told, you can't tell this story without the implicit question of when does real Captain America come back. Of course, if they decided, I mean, if real Captain America is never coming back, there's again no way to tell this story without the Winter Soldier and Falcon being the leads of the story. So it's kind of perplexing. That's the big question that phase four is going to take on, right? Because if you look at the lineup of the shows and movies that are in phase four, with a couple of exceptions, these are, and I say this again as a comic book fan, these are comic books that don't work as monthlies, right?

These are comic books that people haven't bought famously over the years. And the idea that, you know, all of these new experiments are going to take over the mantle of what's come before is kind of crazy to think about, right? I mean, they're at a really weird crossroads here. I'm excited about every project. But I am a little, I just, but I don't, I can't, I can't, predict what's going to happen? What are you expecting from this? There was a lot there to parse. I think that that is both the central challenge of this next

phase of the MCU, but also the central opportunity, you know, because even what you just said about the idea of the quote unquote real Captain America, I think it's clear, it was clear in the run up from the show, right, in the way that it was marketed, in the way that it was positioned. It's clear just from the way that what ultimately unites Bucky and Sam as characters is a relationship to and history with Steve Rogers. I think that one of the central missions of this show will be to reject that idea, that there is a nominal, real Captain America, and that part of what is incumbent upon the characters in this universe and us as viewers is to interrogate that idea, right?

And then I think if you can back beyond the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and you look at something like Wanda Vision for a second, I think it's safe to say that most MCN, fans, let's separate maybe the comic readers here who had like a deep and grained attachment to the Scarlet Witch Canon, did not think that Wanda Maximoff was one of the most important characters in the MCU. But it's impossible actually not to feel that way after Wanda Vision, which no matter how you felt about the ultimate payoff of Ralph Bona or the finale or anything to be clear, I really enjoyed Wanda Vision. It's almost like an arguable fact that that show served multiple functions.

One, to give us this very intimate and very moving portrait of grief and to allow us and the characters to spend time assessing how to move forward after living through and participating in these universe-altering events, which is also clearly going to be a theme of this show, But then also how these characters who were off to the side of the central figures like Steve Rogers, like Tony Stark, are going to be taking on a more central role now. Even think about something like, what's the first movie that we're going to get? Black Widow, even though we're going to get new characters, Pew Hive Assemble, right? Much of the movie is set in the past and centering on a character who we have a pre-existing attachment to. Think about Loki, the MCU show that's going to come next after Thak Warner Soldier.

Now, this is an alternate timeline show, right? Because our guy Loki picked up that Deseract with a quickness and ported himself off into a new dimension. So there will be new stories, new timelines, new adventures, new wrinkles that will help open up the MCU universe. But Loki is a central figure from the first three phases. Think about something like, what if? animated alt history show that's supposed to then come next. I am so excited for What If and What If is definitionally about exploring new ideas or wrinkles on old ideas, but it's anchored largely around familiar characters. So again, there's that balancing act. And I think

it's notable to me that the title of this premiere was New World Order, you know, really leaning in and embed a sense to this idea. How do we establish something new while still connecting to the past not only because you have to connect the past, you can't just reset. It wouldn't make sense after what the characters had been through,

but also because of the necessary acknowledgement of what characters like Steve Rogers mean to Marvel fans, right? So you mentioned that idea of mantle making, and I think that's the next place to go here. Dan and Charles talked about this

on Friday's Ring or Verse episode, and Van said something really interesting about the challenge that Marvel has faced when it comes to mantle making. I'm really interested in one question from this. Mantle making. Because remember, all of these different things are mantles. Iron Man is a mantle.

The Black Panther is a mantle. Captain America is a mantle. For true fans of these things, no one is Iron Man except for Tony Stark. No one is Black Panther except for Tachala. Captain America is Steve Rogers. Can the MCU convincingly make either Bucky or Sam Captain America and have people really believe that that person is fit to lead the Avengers?

So how do you balance all of that? The past, the characters who were part of the first three phases like Sam, like Bucky, who are now taking on a more central role, and then all of the characters who still have to be introduced into the MCU. So, I mean, obviously one of the interesting things going on here with just a form, is that the stakes are, well, I mean, the stakes are always high when you're dealing with this amount of money, but the stakes sort of seem lower, right? This is a TV show. This is they have some time and space to work things out. It seems like they could take these two characters that have been around for a while

as background players and let them be your segways into the next era of storytelling without there being a lot of pressure on the actors and the way that their characters have all this pressure to be the next Captain America. They could do whatever they want recently. I mean, the MCU could go in whatever direction the creators see fit. That said, which I think one of the most stunning things about the first episode to me was how much I liked Anthony Mackey and Sebastian Stan as actors, right? As like playing, like the scene, and we'll get into the details, but the scene with like Anthony Mackey and the bank and the scene with Sebastian Stan and the sushi bar,

not on the date, but the time before when he gets set up, just the work he, the stuff that goes on in his face is more interesting than just about any acting that's been around in the MCU because we could because we got the opportunity to like let it happen right yeah i'm a long time scholar when it comes to studying things that sebastian stan is doing with his face so yeah i'm with you continue i say i say i anything could happen on this show right i mean like like after the first episode would you be shocked to find out that the star coming out of this was like danny ramirez you know or or is or george saint pierre i mean like is there any reason to believe that that was me a little bit more if this just launches the the bat-rock extended universe.

Yeah, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a social and political leper as well as a literal one. But the, there's, I'm just saying anything could happen here, right? I mean, like, whatever actor takes off is going to be the direction. I think they, I mean, they have the ability to go in any direction. I think after the first episode, I have no doubt that Winter Soldier and Falcon are going to be around for a long time. because not only did they serve them well, but like I said, the actors kind of were just gave stunning performances. And just, I mean, in one hour, I was convinced of both of them.

But which way are they going to go? I mean, I don't, I mean, the MCU is a gigantic, gigantic space. And what really had made to me, what made the first three phases of the MCU work were that they made it feel really small, despite the fact that we're, you know, battling in the galley. with the entire with multiple universes at stake the phase one was like here's a dude named tony right and like here's some stuff that he does you know i mean like it's it was very ground level despite being super heroic and they and they grew it at a very sort of reasonable pace that by the time we got to infinity war you knew who all the characters were they were like old friends it didn't seem like

the feeling that a lot of people have when they walk into a comic book shop for the first time is like, I'm totally overwhelmed by all of this. And they did a really good job in the MCU of growing the world, but without making it feel overwhelming. And now, all you have to do is say, you know, the Fantastic Four and X-Men

and I don't know what's happening with the Avengers. And I'm, as someone who loves this stuff, I'm overwhelmed, right? So I have confidence. They will grow it at a reasonable speed and do this the right way. But at this point, there's so many directions

that this could go in. And I think that striking the right balance is almost more important than what properties are pushing to the forefront. Yeah, I think that's a great point. You know, the question of will any person in the world who's interested in dipping into Marvel

be able to keep pace, be able to just watch the new movie if I haven't seen the latest four shows, you know, or whatever the question might be. I think that to me, now obviously, like, I am obsessed with this stuff and love it, so I can't wait, right? I can't wait to soak up every second of it.

I think to me what's interesting about it is, you know, to your point about, like, the comic book shop and that feeling of, oh, my God, where do I even begin? That's one of the tricks, right, of what awaits here is the ability to approximate and replicate that aspect of simultaneously interconnected and standalone storytelling that is so central to what comics are, you know, where you can kind of just pop in and out and pick your starting points. It might have a few

questions, you know, if you don't have the complete backstory about a given character or given arc. But then you could also say, oh, that's a person I'm interested in. That's an idea I'm interested in. That's an aspect of this fictional world that I want to get to know it better and spend more time in. And then you can. And that, to me, is like one of the great gifts of where we are in Phase 4 and the Disney Plus era. And this show and Wanda Vision and everything that I think awaits, TV allows for time, time that you just do not have in the movies. And that's no knock on the movies, right? I love, love, love, love the Marvel movies.

you can't have the sequences with Sam and his sister Sarah or Bucky and his not only therapy sessions, but then his date with Leah. You know, the battleship sequence was so great because it was just a conversation, right? And when you do get those moments in the Marvel movies, they feel like really precious because it allows you to just linger with those characters for a moment in time. And the promise to me

of the TV shows is not only bringing characters who were a part of the tapestry more centrally to the four, but really allowing you to understand who they are not only as heroes,

you know, not only when it comes to that mantle, but who they are as people. Because those things are linked and entwined fundamentally, right? How Sam feels about what the shield represents

and what the mantle of Captain America represents is defined and informed by who Sam is as a person. And this show, over six episodes, despite all of the run-up buzz about how it's a four or five-hour movie, right? And I do think that clearly is true in the sense that it was very cinematic and especially like the opening Falcon action sequence

had a real flare and, oh, I could imagine seeing this. on the big screen aesthetic quality to it, movie-making quality to it, it's paired with the harmony of the intimate moments, the choir moments where you get to learn more

about who these people are, and that's what I love about it. And before we dive into Sam and Bucky, more specifically, I think the other thing that's worth just quickly noting and thinking about

in that big picture sense is that the blip is still very, very, very present. How long will we be living inside of Marvel stories in the wake of the blip? And of course it makes sense that we are still there, right? I think the fact that it's like,

oh, wow, the blip still is exacerbated by the real world delay. You know, the fact that we didn't ultimately get new Marvel in 2020, and so a lot of time has passed since Endgame and Far From Home were in theaters. But again, in the timeline of the canon

for the characters, this is a pretty fresh thing in their lives. And this was a quite traumatic event for all of humanity, right? Don't just move on from that. Yeah, I mean, it is actually particularly compelling because we've all sort of gone through a blip. Like the past year of our lives have been a blip,

so it has an extra resonance. And it makes it, I think, a little bit easier to play off. I mean, there's, I feel like a lot of the sort of baggage the blip brought in, but actually we've made, would have been a little bit smoother had this come out first, right? All the throat clearing, all of the, you know, with the... You're like happy with your alliteration there. He's got his blip beard.

You've got your blip baggage. I like it. Yeah. But when Falcons giving the speech and handing over the shield and saying goodbye to Captain America, whatever, I mean, there's a lot of, like, let me remind you viewers what the blip is and what happened to all of us. And, you know, WandaVision wasn't about the blip, per se. It got us all back in the headspace, right?

We didn't need to be reminded so much about the blip. after having spent the past two months watching Wanda Vision, at least I didn't. But the blip is a big thing. I mean, you talked a little bit earlier about the stakes, and there's, you know, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, I think, shows us, or is going to show us sort of what the future of the superheroes

and the MCO is going to look like. I think Wanda Vision did a good job of setting up the stakes of what the next big conflict in the MCU is potentially going to look like. But the two shows really have in common more than anything, because they're very, very different shows. what they have in common is mourning, right? I mean, they're both like deeply sad shows. Processing trauma.

Yeah, and, and that, I think one of the biggest things about kind of moving on to some of these new properties in phase four is maybe getting, getting away from the sadness a little bit, right? Because the blip is going to be such a, such a permanent fixture, at least, well, maybe not permanent, but a significant fixture in the stories that we already know about. Now, there's also, there,

the blip is a MacGuffin, right? I mean, anything that any storyline needs for the next, for the rest of phase four is going to be explained away by the blip, right? Every super villain is blip oriented. Every team is going to be, has got together because of the blip. Every family trauma is blip oriented. It is blip related. We get it here with the flag smashers who we'll talk about later.

Exactly. But there's a limit to my interest in the blip, especially because it's called the blip. Yeah. I don't need to hear. about the blip at nauseam every week on thousand. Should we go back to calling it the snap? What do you think?

If you were designing the logo for the blip, what would it look like? Blip would be really small. It would be more about the, it would be more about the visuals around it. I'll tell you that much. But I think that my reaction to the word the blip is obviously beside the point, but I think that probably carry, I mean, it relates to everybody's sort of interest in the blip as a plot device. It's going to, you know, it got us where we are.

I'm not sure how much long. or it can really just like buoy these storylines. Yeah, I think like everything else, it's a balancing act, right? Because, again, it would be frankly bizarre to just fast forward past the blip and act like... Oh, yeah. Everything is completely normal, you know? I think the balancing act comes into play

when you see how Marvel pairs that plot device as you're noting with, again, the trauma and the grief that the characters are processing and how much that seems very much enmeshed and what the beginning of phase four is, but also how the aspects of these shows that assess institutional failings and institutional decay,

which is going to be clearly elemental to the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, how much of that is just chalked up to the blip and how much of that time has spent really understanding the pre-existing failures in the history that inform that, which we'll talk about a little bit more as we go today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business,

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Let's zoom in from that wide macro lens. into this show and these characters. And let's start with Sam and how Sam feels about Cap's legacy and the shield. Because the first voice we hear in this episode is not Falcons and it's not the Winter Soldiers.

It's Steve Rogers. We hear the endgame clip. How does it feel? And then Sam, like it's someone else's. It isn't. And then we go right from that quiet opening is the action sequence, which features Sam

jumping out of a plane. Who does jumping out of a plane make us think of David? Steve, of course, as he did so many times. Now, of course, to be clear, we know that Sam's exo falcon days predate even knowing Steve Rogers, right? Like he had been jumping out of planes and flying through the sky long before Cap came into his life. But still, it does feel like this deliberate nod to knowing that we as viewers will think of Cap after seeing that and to establishing in so many different ways throughout the episode, that connection. that they have to each other. But the key moment in the episode that sets up the key moments to come is Sam's decision to hand over the shield. He's at the Smithsonian. But let's go through Sam's speech about symbols and kind of take it line by line here because there's there's lots of parse. And this is, again, essential to not only this premiere, but to I think what the focus of the show

was going to be. The world has been forever changed. This is how he begins. A few months ago, billions of people reappeared after five months away, sending the world into turmoil. So that feels like keenly contemporary right now, but also is eternal and spans history, which I think is going to be an important thing to revisit and that this show will remind us of time and time again. These problems are very present right now. Part of what makes them so hard. And so insidious is that they are not new. Sam continues, we need new heroes,

one suited for the times we're in. That, I think, if you pulled out any line from the episode, is the mission statement of the show. And as we were talking about before, maybe the mission statement of phase four, right? Who are those new heroes? And how is Marvel and the MCU going to work to find a way to put,

front and center, the heroes who do reflect the times that we're in. Sam continues. Symbols are nothing without the women and men that give them meaning. And this thing, and of course Steve Rogers is looming behind him as he gives the speech and the beautiful banner. And this thing, I don't know if there's ever been a greater symbol, but it's more about the man who propped it up and he's gone. A lot of interesting quotes from Anthony Mackey and from Malcolm Spellman, created the show, headwriter for the show, about this idea, this idea of symbols, and specifically what the shield and the larger Captain America mantle represents. I like this quote from Anthony Mackey. This is from an interview with The New York Times is David Schoff, quote,

the idea of Captain America is I am my brother's keeper. Somewhere along the line, we've forgotten that. America is the land of opportunity of freedom, choice, and power, and Captain America represents all of that. He represents it for every. So today, Sam says to the assembled, we honor Steve's legacy, but also we look to the future. So thank you, Captain America, but this belongs to you. Another Mackey quote in that New York Times interview. He said that the shield, quote, wasn't an opportunity for Sam. Quote, it was a major burden.

Another Mackey quote from the Disney press brief, Sam considers the shield a representation of the country that we live in. There's a lot of trepidation as far as how does a black man represent a country that does not. represent him. Yeah. There is a lot packed in here. In a lot of ways, there's a lot of crossover there, right? Like, everything that, everything that Sam said up there on that dais sounds kind of like the way that a showrunner or an actor would explain the premise of the show, too, right?

I mean, the Captain America, the man, the shield, he's symbolic of all these things. And you described it really well. But at some point, a symbol eats itself, right? And Falcon as Captain America would not represent, would not do, no matter how hard he tried, would never represent the ideals that Captain America represented at the beginning or over time. He would represent a man who,

he would represent the next generation of Captain Americas, right? I mean, he would represent what the mantle passing to him means. And that's a lot of what the show is going to be about. That's a lot of what, you know, when Falcon and the comic books took over the mantle of Captain America, that's a lot of what that series. was about. But yeah, I mean, going back to the, in those early storylines where U.S. agent who will get to soon was in the comic books, he was briefly Captain America and he was given the mantle after

there was a brief discussion about who else would get it. And Sam was rejected for the job by a black senator in the comic book. A black senator holds up a picture of Sam and says, America is not ready for a black Captain America. And that was a long time ago, but I don't think anybody would argue that we're in so much of a different spot in this country right now. So it's going to be the tension that he has when he was offered the opportunity, I think, is what a lot of his character arc is going to be built on, right? I mean, we see a lot of the where he come, he's, he came from before he was a superhero. And I think that, you know, those tensions are sort of built in the whole way through.

And I, I assume we're going to see a lot more of that. There's another Malcolm Spellman quote in the show's press briefing. He truly believes, this is about Sam, that there's an argument to be made that red, white, and blue, stars and stripes, inherently represents oppression. And so, of course, Sam wants to honor Steve Rogers's legacy. And of course, the idea of being Captain America is an incredible thing, but it is not purely that, right? It is layered and nuanced. And again, I think that when we talk about what TV as a format provides, it's going to be this, you know, the time for the character and for us as viewers to properly assess what that means. And of course, it's always been part of Sam's arc and Steve's arc, too, in a different way, of course, to grapple with the role that institutions play in society.

It's part of, I think, why Captain America, the Winter Soldier and Captain America Civil War are two of the more effective and successful Marvel films, right? Yes, Sam Wilson was a soldier and now an Avenger and believes in fighting for people and working to protect them. But he has never been afraid to question what something stands for and represents and whether the thing, be it shield. right, infested as it was by Hydra, the Socovia Accords, which he did not sign on Team Cap, right? Or the shield itself can actually live up to the thing that it is nominally supposed to represent.

There was an interesting conversation in this sequence between Sam and Roady. Now remember, you know, I would just mention Team Cap. Sam was Team Cap in Captain America Civil War. Rodi was, of course, team Tony. They were not on the same side. And in fact, have a very complex history because Rody sustained his injury

when he and Sam were chasing each other through the sky, right? And Visions Beam after his speech about catastrophe, shoots into the air, Sam rolls out of the way, it hits Rody. But they're both black men in America and they're black heroes in the Avengers. And they're also grieving. They're grieving.

They're avenging partners and their best friends. Tony and Steve, respectively. They're trying to figure out how to live in this world. What does Rodi say? Why didn't you take up the mantle? He is surprised by Sam's choice. Well, yeah, I mean, he's surprised.

I think, you know, there's probably a big element, too, that he's disappointed, not specifically in Sam, but I think from, if you're sitting in Rodi's shoes, you probably would have been stoked to see Sam be Captain America, right? I mean, that would be really meaningful to him. And also to the world, you know, as we move forward past the blip, but also, I mean, just in general. That was a really good scene. It was a tough scene. But I think that, I think that... Always great to have done, Sheetle. Yeah, I know. Van and Charles did a good job talking about this on the reaction show on Friday. But, you know, there's a... To be totally honest,

you know, Falcon might have been the presumptive nominee for Next Captain America, but we haven't seen enough from him. I mean, they haven't given him enough time to have sort of earned it seems like a weird way of putting it, but I guess to have earned it in the eyes of the viewing audience, this show, if, you know, we don't know which way it's going to go, but will be that opportunity for him, right? This is going to be his, like, reps in front of the camera and in storyline terms is, like, you know, reps with the shield. And I think that there's a degree to which he and sort of the world around him are going to have to find a place of sort of detain, right i mean there is so much his his his his rationalization is 100% legitimate and there's this

sort of like illegitimate rationalization coming from the outside world or excuses coming to the outside world but at some point these things are going to have to come together and he might not be able to put all that aside he might he probably shouldn't put all that aside but you know this is a story about symbolism being talked about by symbols walking around and and and it's uh you know it's it's a I'll be really interested to see which way it goes. Before he can get those reps with the shield, as you mentioned, he's going to have to get the shield back because the government, right,

this nameless Department of Defense suit, thanks Sam, a black hero for handing over the shield, and then at episode's end, gives the shield to a white guy, right? It makes this big speech about we need someone to inspire us again, someone who could be a symbol for all of us. This is just laden, laid in with racism and prejudice. This new cap, John Walker, Wyatt Russell, U.S. agent in the comics,

has definitely not mastered the posing stoic, as Sam put it, about Steve, right? He's already become a meme because he looks like such a goofball. Not Wyatt Russell, who's, you know, just wonderful, but with the helmet on as this new cap, just, I saw a lot of people on Twitter comparing him to the scrunched-up-looking face of the curmudgeonly old man in the Pixar classic up, which I was amazed by. This cap also, very notable, has a gun, visible holster. What's one of the other things that makes me?

the shield a symbol. It's not just the American iconography. It's the fact that a shield is not a sword, right? It represents the desire not to wound, but to protect. And this guy is sitting there with a visible holster on his hip, obviously deliberate. It is for sure. And it's maybe neither here nor there, but it's a long story, but the original story in the mythos that led to Cap being replaced by John Walker started with Cap using a gun. And that's when the government got involved and they were just like, you're breaking your code. Right. I mean, it's like you can't. Give us some quick, some quick U.S. agent comics history here. This is, I am not a big Captain America guy historically, but I was as wild as this sounds, a big U.S. agent guy.

Like, I don't know. For whatever reason, there was not a new issue of X-Men out when this was going on in the Captain America storyline. And with U.S. agent and D. Man, who is this like combination Wolverine Daredevil Ripoff, were like flexing their muscles on the cover of Captain America. I was there for it for whatever reason. Also, you know, the black cap uniform was kind of cool. But, yeah, I mean, so basically Captain America, it was a precursor to the Civil War storyline that came, it was in the movies and came in the comic books years and years later. But in Captain America, Mark Grinemort wrote this, like, lovely little story that was, the, you know,

U.S. government gets involved and they're like, you just can't be this freelance dude anymore. You have to officially be a member of the government and sort of disavow the Avengers and all these other vigilantes. or you can leave being, you know, stop being Captain America anymore. And he decides that he can't abide by their rules, that the code of honor of Captain America is, he's not a company man, he's not a yes man. He's an ideal.

And so he leaves and becomes the captain for a while. He eventually resumes the role. And he's replaced by this sort of super soldier with a, with a, you know, big talking Hollywood agent who's, who was going by the super page. Patriot and now he takes over the role as Captain America. He's, you know, super strong. He's more of a more of a superheroic sort of, you know,

he has more powers, I guess, than Captain America. But he doesn't have the heart. The interesting thing about the story, I guess, and we'll look at this looking forward, is that he starts off as a jerk. And over time, being Captain America, the weight on his shoulder sort of transforms him into a hero. I mean, it makes him, it makes him,

he finds himself striving to be, to live, up to the ideals of Captain America. That's partially why he gives the mantle back to the original cap. So who knows if that's the way we're going to go here. But, you know, Wyatt Russell, we're watching you, man.

But we know, we do know. I mean, this is not a spoiler, right? This is just out there in all the marketing, all the trailers. Sam has the shield. I mean, he gets the shield back, right? So the question of when and how? I look forward to discovering.

But I think we could just say it's a given that that will unfold. I'm also intrigued to see, you know, to your point about if there's an evolution from Walker being positioned as foe to maybe ally at some point, how much of our early time with him is even like him acting in any kind of conscious fashion through his own agency and conviction and how much of it is him basically being a prop, you know, because I don't think it's an accident that we walked back through the Steve Rogers, Captain America exhibit at the. the museum, all of those reminders of the Bond tour from Captain America, the First Avenger, and the way that he was initially deployed is this prop, this propaganda machine, you know, one of the other shots that's in, you know, all the trailers in the run-up to the show is that shot of John Walker running out into what appears to be like a football arena and all of the, you know, dancers and all of the Americana everywhere and how much of this is about the government

attempting to sow this sense of what America is supposed to be, and then how much of the show will be about challenging and tearing down that idea. But the time that we spent with Sam in this episode was not just around the shield and not just around the idea of the mantle. We got a lot of time with Sam and his family back in Louisiana, specifically Sam and his sister, Sarah.

Very good perspective, I thought on... balancing hero work and real life, right? I thought we were going to discuss if we were selling it, Sam says, of the boat. We did, the sister replies. And then you were off fighting Dr. Spescape or whatever while I was holding it together for five years. I loved that so much. The financial mechanics of the bank scene, I'm sure, have already spawned a bunch of Twitter jokes. I haven't been paying attention.

on Twitter. Tough weekend for Tony Stark on Twitter. Got to say. Yeah. I mean, you got to, someone's got to, there's got to be a slush fund somewhere, right? I mean, but it was, I mean, at least the writers were, you know, thoughtful enough to actually pose that question. The goodwill thing, I think, was, I mean, that Sam mentioned, I think was a little bit more poignant, you know, I mean, his sister might have been like, you know, dude, while you were gone for five years, we got this thing called GoFundMe, you'd probably excel at it, right? I mean, but, you know, setting that aside, I think just sort of the racial and societal mechanics of that scene or what's more significant.

And I think that's what we're going to be obviously paying a lot more attention to going forward. Also, there was a moment when I think they were going into the bank or leaving the bank. I don't even remember which one. But where Sarah says, you don't get to come back here and try to write your wrongs, which is,

I thought, a really poignant, I mean, a significant parallel, because the Winter Soldier is in the process of literally writing his wrongs and those involve, you know, action sequences and attempted murder and whatnot.

But, you know, Sam might have been offered Captain America, but he's his professional, his superhero life is sort of what it is, right? I mean, we've seen it play out largely on the screens in front of us. What we don't know about him, the drama that's going to come is in the history of him as a person before he was Falcon. And clearly what he's wrestling with, you know, in the present tense. I totally agree. I mean, there were a lot of comments in the scenes. with Sam and his sister about their parents,

about their familial past and about their father, specifically, Sam leaving after their father's death. His sister Sarah brings that up. That is a tense moment between them. And she also says, this is after they leave the bank, those people don't even know who daddy was and he was a giant. We have a lot to learn here. And I look forward to learning all of it

about Sam and his family and who they are. And I think that it seems clear that that's going to be a central focus. Another Spellman quote from the press briefing, quote, Sam became a hero because of where he's from. He saw that the world was not fair. He ran off to save the world by joining the military. This is where the quote gets really interesting. But he's always worried of joining the military was really about running away from problems at home.

They seemed so insurmountable, it'd be easier to save the world. I love that idea, right? That's part of what's interesting about these stories. Yeah, I think so too. I mean, and just to bring it all back around to that scene, I mean, it's into the, you know, we're talking about U.S. Asian, John Walker before. Captain America was not left to his own devices to like come up with spending money, right? And presumably the new Captain America is not either.

You know, they were elevated to superhero icon God status. And, you know, Sam after helping save the world, has a, apparently a contract with the Air Force. Right. He is a contract employee with the Air Force. I mean, it's a, you know, the chasm there, I think, is a lot of the ground we're going to be playing around in for the rest of the show. It is, to be clear. Disgraceful that Sam or any other Avenger who fought to save people would be in a situation where we have to say, wait a minute. How do the Avengers earn money?

But I think the fact that the show is interested in taking the time to ask that question is really, to its credit. And as you noted, the contrast between this bank clerk saying, okay, can I get a selfie with you? And oh, could we take one again where you have your arms out like wings while this institutional failure and institutional racism permeates every iota of that sequence is just clearly paramount to the show's ambition. You know, the banker. even says under the old term, sure, but these days, what with everyone just showing up? Well, things tighten up. And what does Sarah say in response to that? Funny how things always tighten up around us. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP

and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Should you talk about Bucky for a couple minutes? Let's do it. Good old Buck. What an episode for Buck. Having nightmares of his time as the winter soldier, we see him in a really brutal sequence killing a man, an innocent bystander during a mission. We will learn over the course of the

episode that that man is Yori's son. Bucky is in his full Winter Soldier gear in that sequence. His theme is playing, that high-pitch, menacing sound.

And that timeline factor is really disturbing to think about because the Winter Soldier movie came out in 2014. And the timeline of the story around them broadly aligns

with the real-world moment in which it came out. And obviously, at the end of that movie, Bucky goes off and goes into hiding, which means that had to take place before the Winter Soldier movie.

And it's now 2023 after the blip. And Yori is still in this position of mourning. And saying that he does not understand and does not know, and it's just devastating. You're seeing Bucky, you know, with the old Titanium Armine and the long hair, the mask, it crystallizes for you how long ago that was and how long everybody in all sides of this horror show have been carrying that with them.

Painful. Painful. Where does he wake up? I loved this little detail. He wakes up on the floor of his apartment. Clear callback to the conversation between Sam and Steve in Captain America, the Winter Soldier, about their beds feeling too soft, Steve says, like a marshmallow,

when they come back from war. And that's where Bucky is. That's where we find him. We also find him in therapy with Dr. Rainer. She clarifies that he is a civilian now on that these therapy sessions and the list of a man's. It's a condition of your pardon, she says. I'm curious what your read was because the scene was very deliberately framed with

Bucky sitting in front of this like forest vista, this wallpaper of a forestcape. What did you think about that? I mean, it was a fantastic scene, right? I mean, it was a set piece that we're obviously going to keep coming back to. But in some ways, this humanized Bucky, even more so than the suit. sushi bar scenes that came later, because this was him not trying to be a certain kind of person, but sort of being the sort of person that he's at this point evolved into, right? He's a little bit of a smart aleck. He's obviously still incredibly withholding and will continue to be, but he's still

a soldier. You know, he's showing up for his appointments and everything. And, you know, if you want to get into the, you know, metaphorical implications of the background. I'm sure there's a lot to be said for, you know, for the restraint that it probably takes to be a respectable person coming from the wilderness emotionally that he was brought up in. I had a lot of question. I mean, this scene had a lot of questions, too, and I guess this is, we're going to have to get over some stuff that happened, you know, that happens in this episode just to move forward. It does, one would act, one, one, one is tempted to wonder why it makes more sense for the government to let this man go with some, you know, court-ordered counseling as opposed to just keeping him on the payroll as a

shield operative or whatever the, you know, the organization would be. It'd be, it seems like there be better ways to control him. But the one thing that Shield always did, the one thing that Nick Fury always did in the comic books too is, especially when as it pertains to Bucky is eliminate moral ambiguity. And sometimes there was a lot of I mean, there was often tension there. But, like, you know, if Nick Fury is like, we got to take these guys out, then more often than not, we don't need to ask any more questions. I think having him be on his own, I think it just really provides a platform for him to work out

this sort of moral ambiguity on his own. I mean, for himself and as it pertains, the world around him. Yeah, that's really all said, you know. Got to get rid of every remnant of Shield. That's what Steve Rogers wanted, David. I loved the forest backdrop. because I think it's supposed to imply serenity, you know, and tranquility. But it made me think of the Pine Barrens episode of The Sopranos

and how sometimes when you're inside of the forest, it just means that you're really struggling to find your way out. I thought that was a really effective visual. And, you know, even seeing how Buckie navigated that scene where he is work, you know, he's working to make amends, right? He has the list, another Captain America, the Winter Soldier callback, of course, to Steve's, I'm catching up on all I missed, no book list.

One of the names on Bucky's list is H. Zemo. Is that how Zemo's going to come back into the story? What's all that about? I'm very much looking forward to finding out. But we see in the course of the Senator Atwood recollection and his exchange with his doctor that he is working to process. what has happened to him and to find his place in the world,

but he doesn't tell her about his nightmare, right? He lies about that. The version that we see of what actually happened with the senators quite different from what he says when he's recounting events. And I think that this is all, again, so fitting for his character because, you know, whether it's the nightmare or even the setting of therapy, which I think is an important thing for Marvel to do to say that these these characters have to process what has happened to that,

just like any other people in the world would. But because of the role that his mind has always played in the story, you know, obviously when he was the Winter Soldier for 70 years, as a hydra spawn, a tool, a weapon that they deployed, it was because they had brainwashed him. You know, there's that great moment between Tony and Bucky and Civil War when he says, do you even remember them? He's talking about his parents, right?

I remember all of them. Like, Bucky has been haunted by the things that he has done, and a lot of people, including Steve, try to tell, tell him that it wasn't his fault and he wasn't in control, but that doesn't mean that he's ready to absolve himself, right? He still did those things, as we hear him say. And whether it's the other characters or us as viewers, we can say, Bucky, you weren't in control of your mind. Like, forgive yourself. It would take a long time for him or anyone to be able to get to that point. You know, what did he, what did he say to Steve in Wakanda before he went under for for them to

repair his mind? I can't trust my own mind. That's not something that you. you just move away from, nor is learning how to navigate not only life without Steve Rogers, his longest friend, his oldest friend, the most important relationship in his life, and the loneliness that he finds himself in, but just modern life in general, you know, as we hear him say, he's 106. And Steve Rogers is always called the man out of time, right? But we see, I think, many times in this episode that Bucky is a man out of time, too. And I think that's another nice way of continuing to connect those storylines. You know, his doctor is, like, ragging on him for not having a more active call log,

not replying to Sam's text messages. I'm the only person you call it all week, she says. This is so sad. It's hard to move forward for him, not only because of what he's done, but because the one person who worked the hardest to believe in him and help him believe in himself was Steve, and Steve's not there. You know, that, that beautiful MCU line that we all love that they both have said to each other, I'm with you to the end of the line.

Like now he's working toward the end of line alone. And I think it will be one of the rewarding things about the show is that, you know, there have been these great moments between Sam and Buggier, they just clearly can't stand each other, right? The I hate you moment. Can you move your seat? All of those great little comedic bursts. They're going to need each other.

And Steve was the thing that brought them together, and now he's not here. So is their shared affection for him? going to be enough? Well, I mean, Steve was obviously the source of gravity, right? I mean, he was the son of this solar system and in the comics and in the movies too,

obviously he takes on, he's had a lot of sidekicks, you know, over the years and eventually they all branch out and go into their own thing. But that doesn't mean that you're not still, you know, territorial. They're not still, you know, jealous of the new sidekick

or of the relationships, various other people have had with him. You know, I mean, being intimate it, then when or how you want to define that with Captain America, I'm sure is it in and of itself is a sort of like life-changing experience, right? So it's only natural that people are going to value that relationship and be super territorial about it too. That's not really enough, you know, I mean, to be the foundation of a relationship between two of the planets orbiting, right? I mean, they're, we can take this metaphor as far as you want to do. But it's, you know, they're off,

they're flung out into outer space right now and they got to figure out how to get together. And that's what they have to figure. I mean, first of all, they got to figure out to get in the same camera at the same time. But, you know, once that happens... I wonder how that will happen because, you know, again, it's established that Bucky's not replying to Sam. So Sam has been reaching out. Will he again, given what has happened with the shield? Will he ask Bucky for help? There's one of the scenes in the trailer is the two of them sitting with Dr. Rainer. Will she encourage Bucky to reach out? You know, there's... Like, to be clear, I'm very excited about everything that's to come in the show and that the action adventure aspect of it is clearly a huge part of it.

It's going to be really fun. I can't wait. It does make me a little sad that we know that Bucky is going to go back into the fight because I think there's the moment in this episode where he says he wants peace and his therapist says that's bullshit, right? So there's a part of his character that is anchored in understanding that the fight is a part of his life. But then there's also a part of his character that's anchored and understanding that

that has kind of been an eternal and perpetual tragedy for him, right? Like, if you think back to Civil War and Steve saying to him, this doesn't have to end in a fight, and Bucky's saying it always ends in a fight. And then the thing that he says here to his therapist is, this is new for me. I didn't have a moment to deal with anything, you know. I had a little calm in Wakanda,

and other than that, I just went from one fight to another for 90 years. And so again, while I can't wait for Sam and Bucky to be together, it does just seem like the next thing is going to be. another fight. And so, you know, that's one of the many moments to appreciate probably the quieter times that we had with him. Not only his lunch and I loved that he, when we first, when Yuri first comes in with unique, it's like Monique, David, but with a you for unique. It's in an alley, which of course makes you think back to Bucky arriving when Steve first picks up the trash can lid as a shield back in Captain America, the first Avenger when the movie

theater asshole is, is beating him up. other alley scene there. But these human moments, these human scenes, the flowers, the battleship, his app, he's absolutely iconic dating, online dating exchange about how it's, quote, pretty crazy. And there are, quote, a lot of weird pictures. Just amazing stuff there. But, you know, I think the key, really, that this episode tried to reinforce for us is that for Bucky, his efforts to forge these new connections, whether it's something like trying to bring him to make amends for killing his son, or whether it's trying to actually form a new connection

with somebody like Leah, that is inextricable from his guilt and from his grief. Yeah, I think that's really well said. He's a, you know, maybe more even more so than Sam, he exists in the shadow of Captain America, right? But a lot of what he's wrestling with so far in the series and as a, you know, character as a person, whatever, are run parallel to Captain America's, right?

I mean, it's the, it's the life of, the never-ending life of battle, of conflict. It's, it's the sort of like, like, super, like the super version of PTSD. I mean, that's what's characterized as entire existence. And not knowing himself, you know, you know, Captain America always kind of, his relationship was to his own symbol, right?

I mean, living up to the ideals that he set for himself and helping the world live up those ideals too, you know, Bucky's just trying to find footing in that world. Yeah, you're free is one of the things that Dr. Rainer says to him and he says to do what, which again actually made me think of Sam and Steve in a conversation they had had when Sam asked Steve at the VA Center back in the Winter Soldier, what makes you happy? And Steve said, I don't know. That's where Bucky is right now.

He's in that I don't know moment. This episode is brought to you by Nass Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised. every lap, every race, every hard-fought place. They're all jammed inside every can of Nass energy, high-performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage, and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of Nass energy and get after it.

We've talked about the heroes. Let's spend a couple minutes here. Talking about the villains. Again, no Zemo yet, but we got some Flag Smasher action. theories are obviously a huge part of the MCU, just constant part of the Wanda vision viewing experience. And so anticipating that theories will be a big part of our lives again and our shared viewing experience for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier,

want to spend some time talking about theory of the week, you know, diving into something that is on our minds, maybe on the minds of the Internet. And today, we are joined by Daniel. Chin, if you love The Ringer and you love Marvel, then surely you were intimately acquainted with Daniel's excellent Marvel writing. He has been recapping the MCD Disney Plus shows on Friday on The Ringer.com and then diving into a character and idea and a little more depth on Wednesdays. Daniel, welcome. Thank you for joining us. Thanks so much for having me, Mel. Thanks for the introduction.

We got to talk about the Flag Smashers, mostly because David and I have been, podcasting for 90 minutes already and have barely talked about them. But also because they're clearly going to play a meaningful role this season. Big part of the trailers and the marketing, you know, in part because

they look cool, they look strong. They're wearing interesting, menacing masks, right? And also because of the way that they featured in this episode with Lieutenant Torres, the scene in Switzerland, what role are the flag smashers going to play this

season and potentially beyond in the MCU. That's one. Two, this is the part I'm really interested it. What's up with that super string? Might there be some serum out on the streets? Okay. It wouldn't be a Marvel story if somebody wasn't trying to recreate the serum or make somebody supernaturally strong. And then how or maybe will the flag smashers connect to any of the other villains of the story. So let's just, let's take this one at a time. Run us through what role you see the Flag Smashers playing this season based on what we've seen so far and also based on the comics.

Yeah, so it definitely seems so far to very much be in line with this theme that we're seeing come up a lot in this first episode, as you guys have been talking about, and how it's like, you know, resurfacing the past and sort of, you know, shaping the future for the MCU at the same time as well. You know, it's like, as Torres was kind of explaining it to Sam at the top of the episode, you know, he's been seeing these, you know, manifestos pop up on message boards, you know, around this group that, you know, believes that a world, you know, the world was better off during the blip. Which is, I mean, it's like a wild thing to believe because we saw like 10 minutes of endgame, it did not look so good. But, you know, there are these people that believe that. No New York Mets, you know, a dilapidated city field.

How could that be better, Daniel? Right, just as they're finally looking good, too, you know. But, you know, they believe that, you know, the world is better off, you know, unified without borders, is, you know, the way he kind of, you know, frames their ideology. And Torres actually says so you could see how a lot of people would be into that, that aspect of it, which is interesting, yeah. Exactly. But so, you know, you see, like, in that one bank scene, you know, you see these just people forming around, you know, this, like, app. And, you know, it seems for at least right now, you know, you know, We don't exactly know who their leader is. Torres seems to think it's that one guy with a super strength. But through previews and all the teasers and stuff,

we know that there's a character named Carly Morgenthau, who in the comics, the original Flag Smasher is just one person. And his name is Carl Morgenthau. And he's the leader of this organization with the acronym Ultimatum. You know, Marvel loves their acronyms. they have a ridiculously long acronym. So they're basically folding this group from the comics into this group in the, you know, the Falcon show. And, you know, using now the blip as a backdrop for it, you know, as like that time in which there was this world without borders.

The solo a Star Wars story heads out there, you know, of which I am one, hashtag make solo to happen. Surely delighted to see and welcome Emphus Nest into the Falcon Winter Soldier season. I can't wait. Shoemaker, you know, after you revealed earlier that you were a huge U.S. agent, Stan, I'm curious, you're a big ultimatum head? No, no, not at all. Flag Smashers not, Flag Smashers not, one of my dudes. I was literally last night just reading old comic books and dying laughing at the ultimatum being

an acronym. I mean, it's just, I get, when I was a kid, I liked to do, when I was reading these, I was really into acronyms too, I guess. So I guess it was good for the audience. But every time they come in, there's an asterisk with the box at the bottom that explains the acronym for no reason. They also did that when Cap said somebody

went AWOL. There was the asterisk that explained what that meant at the bottom. There's a lot of explanation in those days. There was that good meta moment in the Sam Torres conversation about the Flag Smasher name where Sam says, is that a new thing? Bad guys give themselves bad names. And Torres says there's a lot of worse names

in that one, which, you know, I have to say I agree with it is true. There are definitely worse names in comics canon than Flag Smasher. What about the serum, Daniel? I think seems like something we're supposed to be asking ourselves, right? It's something we're supposed to be thinking because when Torres reaches out to Sam via iMessage, which was iconic, hashtag important, 2003, and everyone's just still, you know, texting the same way and using hashtags the same. way, I guess, frowning in selfies. Sam observes watching this video. Oh, that guy is strong, right?

And Torres says, what are you thinking? And Sam says, nothing. And then Torres says, wait, you don't think he could be a, and then we don't get to hear the rest of that sentence, right? Sam says, look, I'll circle back to you. Let's keep this between me and you. Okay. So is this a tease for the Super Soldier serum, which a proud tradition is people trying to replicate Erskine serum, badly fucking it up, and then having a lot of horrible things unfold, right? Or could it be super strength or some sort of enhancement achieved in a different way? I thought it might be helpful for you to give people a very quick refresher on our run with the serum in the MCU.

You can't do it for all of Marvel because we'd be here for 100 years, but the MCU at least. Yeah, I mean, in the MCU, I feel like it's kind of similar to like the Infinity Stones in a sense because, you know, it's just the thread just goes back so long where like, you know, so many people have tried seeking this power and it just connects a lot of the movies to each other. You know, so it starts off with Abraham Erskine developing it in World War II for American soldiers. And, you know, naturally, of course, it only works on one guy, the one and only Steve Rogers. Didn't go so well with Red Skull before that. Right, did not go well. And so, like, you know, the original serum is destroyed by a Hydra assassin. And then after that, you know, Hydra still tries to recreate it.

And Arnhemzola does. And, you know, he uses it to make Bucking into the Winter Soldier. But, you know, other times, you know, like you've said, you know, really does not work out well for people in the Marvel universe when they tried doing it. Like General Ross has good old Bruce Banner tried to recreate it and definitely does not go well for him. Nor for my dude, Emil Blonsky, right? Tough stuff for abomination. No, it was not good for him. But, like, somebody that it did work out for was Howard Stark, who was there for the original.

He recreates it, and when Hydra, you know, gets wind of this, they send Bucky to kill him and his wife. Weird spin on saying that it worked well for him, you know. Ten seconds later, we're recapping his assassination. The science of it. But he manages to recreate it at least, which, you know, and it didn't turn them into the Hulk. So there's still that at least. So, like, you know, that pretty much brings us to like Civil War when like Bucky steals it for Hydra. And Hydra, you know, restarts their whole winter soldier program.

And they make a whole bunch more of the winter soldiers. And then Zemo eventually, you know, uses Bucky to track them down. and then kills all of them while they're, you know, deep in cryosleep in Siberia. But that pretty much, you know, leads us directly into the show and, like, why it probably will really much tie into this because of, you know, the way that Zemo, who, you know, was obviously absent for the premiere, but he's got to come into play somehow and then just, you know, the whole backstory of, of Bucky and, like, you know, his traumatic past and all that. So I think it's definitely going to be coming into play.

Yeah, I think that it seems inevitable, like the serum will play a role. I mean, also, a lot of theorizing among fans that Isaiah Bradley, the first black cops in America will play a role this season. And, of course, there's very upsetting comics history there about experimentation on black soldiers to try to get the serum to work. I think that could be a part of this season. how or if John Walker, U.S. agent, is powered up in the MCU given that he's powered up in the comics is something that certainly we will learn

how the flag smashers are powered up and presumably it's not just the one flag smasher who Torres fought with in the streets of Switzerland after the Vankeist. I mean, in the trailers we see Carly, as you noted, and many other members who seem quite strong, right? did Zima like take some serum from Siberia and stash it into Snowbank? Could he have gone back for it?

Could he be connected to these other factions in some way? Or will Zemo ultimately be disconnected from the Flag Smashers in any of these other groups? LAF, any of the other villains? What do you guys think? Are the villain threads and the serum threads going to connect or not necessarily? I assume they're all going to connect because that's what these good Marvel shows tend to do. I mean, it basically it doesn't contradict anything you said,

but my reading when Sam looked at that video of the Flag Smashers guy is that he thought it was Bucky. And so I think that from... You think he's like, Bucky's not texting me back because he's robbing banks in Switzerland? Well, I just think that yes, and also Sam's

coming from a point of view where he doesn't, he has no reason to believe the world is full of super serum people, right? I mean, he knows that that technology has existed, but if you see somebody doing this stuff, your first, your brain's going to go to, who do I know who that can do that stuff? Not, I wonder if there's an underground hydrolab that is creating new super soldiers or whatever, you know, I mean, so. See, I don't agree with that and here's why. Because Sam,

at this is an interesting point, I'm glad you said it. Sam and Cap spent years on the run together, years. And I think that in that time, Steve probably catches Sam up on what unfolded in Siberia and beyond. And, you know, whether it's from reading through all of the shield documents that Natasha released into the world or from his charming chat with uploaded Arnhem Zola brain or anything else, Steve actually knew a lot about this. Now, there was that really notable line in the conversation between Sam and Rodi about how nobody wielded the shield for 70 years. And to me, that feels like something that was there because they will be coming back to it to remind us that that wasn't true, right? So what does Sam know already?

What maybe just kernels of knowledge might he have that might lead him to explore? But of course, as soon as he sinks up with Bucky, I mean, Bucky's the one who led Zemo to Siberia in the first place. Bucky knows. Yeah, and Zemo's also like on his list of immense. He sure is. One of the many names on his list. He sure is.

Why is Zemo going to put on the mask? Do we think we're going to get some adhesive X action in this? Yeah, I mean, listen, this is comic books still. I'm sure at Marvel, the MCU has done a wonderful job of giving some rationalization to the nuttier parts of, you know, like white people wear bright color uniforms and stuff like that. But, I mean, anything could be the reason. It could be, you know, acid on his face or magic dust on his face. Maybe he just, you know, likes the way he looks in the mask.

Who knows? Maybe. We do see some shots of him in the trailer where his face. looks completely normal. So maybe that will unfold over the course of the show. Final predictions? Comic book reading recommendations

for people who are interested in learning more about the Flag Smashers, Daniel? Yeah, so I mean, honestly, like, I did not read too much, like, Captain America growing up. So, like, when I went back to look back at Flag Smashers' origins, it's like, you know,

like David was saying, it's pretty funny. Like, definitely, like, a good place to look at, like, you know, how they used to be in the comics is like Captain America, No, number 321 and 322, like from the mid-80s, like, you know, his group of ultimatum agents are flying around on these, like, powered up, like, skis. So, like, there's definitely a good place to look for that. And then more recently, you know, they had in Captain America, Sam Wilson,

which is just in general, like, a good place to look for this series. He recently appeared there. So that's, like, definitely a more recent iteration of him. Thank you for those recommendations. Thank you for your serum theories. Thank you to Daniel and thank you to David for joining me today. Looking forward to chatting with you guys over the rest of the season. Final thoughts?

Final thoughts for me? Basically, I think at the end of the day, this is a story about intellectual property because we see U.S. Agent takes the stage and the real, it's not about good versus evil. This is about the creatives who imagined and breathed life into their creativity. creations versus the corporate overlords who, you know, on paper have the rights to Captain America and the star and everything else. So watch for the Battle of IP to take over your screens this season. What an insightful and cynical reading. Thank you for that. It's time for the mailbag, as I like to call it, the R. You Tony Stink delivery. Where we hear from you? We hear from you. The listeners. and who better.

Who better to join me for the mailbag than the Lord of the Memes, the man behind the ringerverse, social feeds, and so many of the other Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and I don't know, probably TikTok and whatever else is hip and cool these days. I'm old now, so I'm behind on social media, all of these social platforms. Jomi, Adoneron. Hello, Mao. How are we doing today?

Jomi, I just, I love Marvel. That's my formal stance. How about you? Same. Right here, we're linked, you know? We're going to run through a few mailbag questions. It'll shock you and everyone else to hear that we're running along today. So we're going to go kind of rapid fire lightning round-ish through the mailbag,

but we're going to be doing the mailbag, hopefully every week. Always fun to hear from the listeners and bring people into the conversation here on the Ring or Verse. So if you're listening, please keep sending the questions. Send them from next week. Send them every week. Let us know what's on your mind. What do we got first today? Well, our first question comes from Dan Desmond.

He asks, we know old man Steve gave Sam the shield, but how did Steve get that shield? Last I remember, Thanos broke the other one in half. Glad we got this question because this has been on my mind. This has been on the minds of a lot of Marvel fans, frankly, since endgame, for the very reason that Dan cites in the question, right? Danos obliterated cap shield in the Battle of Earth. Shattered.

Not to mention that it's very clear from looking at this shield when Steve first hands it to Sam in endgame. And again, when we're looking at it in this episode, this is a different shield. It looks different. the indentations in the vibranium, in the silver portions, it's visually distinct from our main timeline shield.

And so it certainly seems, as many Marvel fans have speculated, since endgame, and I think as the theory regained some juice on the heels of the Russo brothers saying in interviews early in two, that yes, Steve Rogers went off to live in an alternate timeline with Peggy, which of course, is I love to reflect upon as different from what Marcus and McPhealy, the end game writers, have said there in camp, he was always the husband the whole time. But that would track, right, with what the Russo's are saying about Cap being off in another dimension, that he's brought this shield with him to Sam from another dimension. What I think is interesting about this,

is what it means not only for the shield itself, but for how characters are interacting across timelines and dimensions, if Steve Rogers came back to give that shield to Sam, can he come back again? And there are plenty of in-universe theories about where Cap is, as we heard Torres say to Sam in this episode, right? When he asked him if Sam had flown him to the moon. No, I think it's interesting, though,

because obviously Cap has access to a quantum tunnel, You know, he had to get from one alternate universe to the original universe. So, you know, Steve Rogers is live somewhere kicking it, you know, playing cards or something, just hanging out. Bulk of the world, I think, despite the Torres comment that indicates that some of the conspiracy theorists are asking questions and trying to figure this out, the bulk of the world, I think it's safe for us to assume, thinks that Capp, Steve Rogers's cap, is dead because he's in the immemorial video in Far From Home, right? which is set after Falcon and the Lunar Soldier. So a month or so after where, a couple months after where this show begins, at least based on the six months and eight months,

respective comments from this show in that movie, people think Steve is dead. To me, that indicates that he can't come back into this season of this show in a way that would draw attention, but that doesn't mean that he can't come back just for Sam and Bucky, maybe. Who knows?

A little really expensive cameo for Chris Evans. Don't want to roll it out. Yeah. All right. Our second question comes from Dakota Moyer. Is the biggest failure from Tony Stark not creating Ultron or giving advanced robbery to a 15-year-old, but instead not leaving or creating a superhero fund for his fellow Avengers? I would just like to say, can I take a minute? Please, absolutely.

It is, you know, it's known among the multiverse that I'm a Tony Stark stand, okay? And I would just like to point out that the man is dead. You can't let- Pepper is still alive. Pepper is sitting on the Stark Fortune. We saw that she wrote that big check for May's Foundation and far from home. Continue. Again, Tony, you know, Tony's in the grave.

He's six feet under. Let him rest, right? That's one. Two, Tony did all he could when he was alive for the Avengers, right? When living in the upstate New York facility, they had food boarding, you know. They didn't starve. You know what I'm saying? They had a stipend.

In Civil War, Wanda wanted to get a pizza. I didn't see her mowing the lawn for allowance. You know what I'm saying? So I'm sure they got spending money, you know? And then after Civil War, when they're all, you know, broken up, you know, they're out, you know, doing their own thing. They don't have access to the Stark money. And then after the blip, right, the Toss is living in Avengers Mansion. You know, Cap was just, you know, going back and forth.

You know what I'm saying? They were taking care of, you know, until after Tony died. right? And after he's dead, why are you bringing his name into it? He's in the ground. Let him rest. Let Tony rest in peace. Please. Listen, when you say you,

I know you're speaking to all of Twitter, and I wish you luck. Just a very, very tough couple days for Tony on Twitter. Obviously, I think that we agree that there are many factors at play here other than Tony. It is a failing of, as always, I will not hesitate to blame Thunderbolt Ross and his cursed Sikovia chords, right?

Yes. And the fractures. It is really, I will just say, it is really wild to rewatch. I rewatched all the cat movies this weekend. And then, of course, even if you think of Ultron and Tony's line about how caps are in charge,

Tony just pays for everything. And then there are all these moments in Captain America Civil War where Tony is talking about all the money that he's spending on everybody. And you brought up Wanda. He basically tries to excuse the fact that he's keeping her prisoner

by saying, there's a nice swimming pool. I don't think that Tony's read on the things that he has provided to the Avengers is always entirely healthy. And then let me say,

let me just be clear. I love Tony, Jomey. I love Tony. He's a very important character and a very important figure in our lives. I think the fact

that he has made some mistakes and is flawed is a part of why ultimately he's somebody who we've invested in so much. But obviously, the societal failings, the entrenched institutional racism

and the deep structural failures that would allow this to be true beyond just the tweets about Tony and the funny memes about Tony, the fact that the show is interested in taking the time to ask the question, how does a superhero make a living?

What does it mean for Sam to be sitting there asking for the bank loan? This is going to be at the heart of this show. I can't wait to see it. I can't wait to see that move forward. All right, our third question from Michael T. Ford, the third. Given the arc of his comic character, do you think that Lieutenant Torres will get his own Falcon exosuit by the end of the season?

Okay, I'm glad we got this question. Torres, we didn't really know much about really anything, actually. I don't think about how Torres was going to factor into this season, but in the Captain America Sam Wilson Comics line, which, as Daniel mentioned, is I think, going to be really informative in terms of the direction of this season of TV. Torres becomes Falcon. Comic spoiler, no idea of this will happen in the show,

but Torres Becomes Falcon. He literally, this is going to be an incredible sentence to say out loud, he becomes a hybrid human bird because he gets Red Wing, who, you know, in the comics, Red Wing is not a drone. Red Wing is an actual falcon. and Sam and Red Wing have a psychic connection. Torres has Red Wing's DNA. Thanks to Carl Malice,

because I wonder if we're going to be getting some Carl Malice action this season or at least at some point in phase four of the MCU. But yes, I think that it seems very clear that Torres is going to play a really meaningful role this season. And I think clearly beyond, I would say that Torres becoming Falcon feels to me after the first episode of this, like almost a given. I hope so. I loved him. He was,

he's going to be the next, he's going to be the next Jimmy Wu. You know, everybody's going to be screaming for more Torres. So I love that for my guy. This question comes from Olivia Priano. I have two questions. Do you think there's more to Miki Ishikawa's character

than we're being led to believe? And two, do you think was meet any mutants on the show? If so, who would you most like to see? Okay. So I hope that the answer to the first, question is yes, because as mentioned earlier, I really loved the date scene between Bucky and

Leah, whether Leah Leah is a superhero or an enhanced being or connected to the larger plot in any way. I hope that we see her again because I really loved those scenes at Izzy and found her to be just wonderful. Regarding mutants, I would be shocked if we get mutants. in the falcon and the winter soldier after not getting them in Wanda. I would be shocked. However, I do consider it, again, an absolute guarantee that the mutants

will be formally introduced into the MCU sooner rather than later. It has to happen at some point, and I will just say, the internet's commitment to continuing the, will Mephisto be the big bad of the season after Wanda Vision has concluded

is absolutely exceptional and I applaud it. I mean, honestly, like, I love, is that Mephisto? Is that Mephisto? It's a great bit. All time. It's an old time. And I was sure we were actually getting Mephisto and Wanda Mission,

so I'm part of the group of people being made fun of here, but I still love it. Great bit. All right. Our final question comes from Derek Hayes. How do you think Bucky's potential dating app matches React when they see age 106? And we have a related question from Black Vernine. would Mao give Bucky a second chance if he walks out on her mid-date? Boy, how to answer that.

You know, it's a family-friendly podcast, but the only place that Bucky is walking to mid-date is somewhere else with me. You know, I think we have a great time together. What is Bucky's Tinder profile and general online dating presence? He seems obviously just very overwhelmed by the world of online dating. That much was clear. I'd like to think that he lists his interest. you know, we see here that he loves board games.

So maybe he mentioned that. Maybe he also mentioned his affinity and enthusiasm for dancing. You know, we know from the First Avenger that he loves to dance. He loved the Stark Expo. Maybe he mentions that he likes to go out to fairs. One of my favorite bucking moments is when he's just out at the fruit market in Romania and Captain America Civil War. Maybe he mentioned, you know, his interest in,

Romanian plums, perhaps? And, you know, look, we just mentioned Red Wing. We'd be remissive we didn't mention Alpine. Bucky's wonderful cat in the comics. Maybe he mentions that he's an animal lover. He did note, though, that he's intimidated by all the tiger photos. So maybe not. I think the interesting part of dating Bucky would be, you know,

everywhere you go, he has to wear long-sleeve shirts. Thank you for saying this because it reminds me of something that I meant to mention earlier and did not. I'm so glad you just said that. this. Can we talk about this for a minute? Let's go. Let's go. Okay. He's wearing long sleeves and gloves, right? Yes. That's a conversation point on the date. He says he has bad circulation. However, I don't, I don't understand how people don't recognize Bucky. I don't understand. I'm so confused by this. I loved the episode, but this really threw me off. He, in, in Captain America's Civil War, a large part of the plot hinges on Zemo framing

Bucky, the Winter Soldier, for bombing the UN in Vienna. And as part of framing him, he puts on a prosthetic of his face and then blast that photo out to the entire world. It is on every newscast. And on those newscast, he is referred to as the infamous Winter Soldier, the infamous Hydra assassin. Like, wouldn't people know him? And then also, again, far from home is set after the events of this show.

But in that Midtown Midtown Science and Tech school video, Bucky is right there in that photo collage of all of the Avengers who Betty and Jason are thanking for saving the Earth. Also, of course, Bucky's face is visible in the Captain America Smithsonian exhibit. But nobody knows who he is.

Well, first off, he got a haircut, right? You know, it's two different people. you know, pre-haircut post-haircut. That's a face that you recognize. Come on. He's got a, you know, real chiseled chin. You know, you can spot that from a mile away. I mean, come on.

Frankly, like, it's probably, you know, part of the fact that, like, people have been gone for five years, you know, like. That's, I'll accept that. Yeah, people are preoccupied after the blip. Fine. It's probably tough to recognize people. after they've, either they've been gone for five years or you've been gone for five years. It's tough either way, I'd imagine.

I guess if I'm scrolling on Tinder and I see a picture of him, I'm like, is that Bucky Barnes the winter soldier? But maybe that's just me. Swiping. Is that Bucky, uh, interest, Romanian plums, cats? Hmm. Wait, didn't that guy bomb the U.N.? Like, that should be the whole, the whole thing right there.

And then he has a whole thing in there about how he's misunderstood. And let me tell you about my list of amends. Places I won't go. The beach, hiking, anywhere warm. Got to keep that arm in the seat. Okay. That was fun. Looking forward to more mailbag questions from the listeners in the future.

Keep sending them our way. And if you love a meme, you know, if you love Twitter, if you love the internet, be sure to, again, follow. the ringerverse accounts because Jomi is just out there crushing it. I'm cooking them. I'm cooking up memes in my lab. We got them cracking. Let's get it. Thanks for having me.

Thanks, Jomey. Always. All right, friends. Time to bounce. Got to go deal with some moon stuff. Please follow the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And follow us on social as well. On Twitter and Instagram, we are at at Ringerverse.

Join the Ringerverse Facebook group. And send us your mailback questions from next. week's episode. Thank you, as always, to Steve Allman and the entire production team for their help with the launch and with today's episode. And thank you to David, Daniel, and Jomey for joining me today. Don't forget, boot the feedback up this Friday for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier Episode 2, Instant Reaction with Van Lathen and Charles Holmes. And please join me again next Tuesday for more Falcon Winter Soldier talk by which point, Bucky and I will hopefully have resumed our date.