The Ringer-Verse - Analysis of 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Ep. 2

Episode Date: March 30, 2021

Mallory Rubin is joined by The Ringer's TD St. Matthew-Daniel to analyze the themes and revelations in the second episode of ‘The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.’ They break down how hidden agendas play a role in Sam and Bucky's strife with each other and what it means for them by the end of the episode (07:59). They then dive into theorizing with Daniel Chin about the role the Power Broker plays in the big picture (60:11) before Jomi joins to answer your mailbag questions (80:04) Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: TD St. Matthew-Daniel, Daniel Chin, Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Not a killer anymore. You think you can wake up one day and decide who you want to be? It doesn't work like that. Well, maybe it does for folks like you. Isaiah, the reason we're here is because there's more of you and me out there. You and me. And we need to know how. I'm not going to talk about it anymore.

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here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I am Mallory Rubin. Co-host of Binge Mode and head of editorial at the Ringer. It is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Munich, but to join us on this new podcast feed for Marvel, for superheroes, for Star Wars, for all things, nerd culture and fandom. If you're new to the Ringerverse feed, here's the deal.

Every Friday, Van Lathen and Charles Holmes, you may know them as the Midnight Boys. We'll have their instant reaction to the latest Falcon and the Winter Soldier episode. And then I will be with you the following Tuesday to analyze the episode's themes, dive into the newest theories, answer your mailback questions, and more. This week, though, we got a couple bonus treats. Conversation about Amazon's Invincible, already up for you on the feed. And coming soon, the Ring ofverse Cruise instant reaction to Godzilla versus Khan. There is a lot going on on the feed.

There's more to come. So stay tuned. How can you stay tuned? You can do that by following us on Twitter and Instagram, of course, at Ringiverse. You can join our Facebook group and follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Before we dive in today. Spoiler warning once again. Today's podcast features details from the Falcon and the Winter Soldier second episode,

The Star-Spangled Man. I can just hear the song, like, kicking in just from saying those words. And spoilers from the entire MCU run to date, comics canon, all of it. You've been warned. Joining me for today's chat is T.D. St. Matthew Daniel, the ringer's podcast lead, a massive, massive Marvel fan. He sits in Marvel desk chairs. Okay, this is one of the many little nuggets that you learn while working from home and being on Zoom all the time with your colleagues.

His dog's name is Shuri. Incredible stuff all around. And he's here to chat with me about the main takeaways from this Falcon episode, Pars Art Theories of the Week with Daniel Chin. And then later I'm going to head to the timeline to answer your mailback questions with Jomey. TD, welcome into the ring of verse. Mel, thank you so much for having me. I got to say, though, today I am rocking the Captain America. chair today, not the Black Panther

Shrewie chair. And specifically, it's the stealth suit chair, right? Because that's my favorite Captain America uniform. It might be my favorite uniform in the entire MCU, to be honest. Wow, what a take. Hey, I don't want to that's Charles's corner, all right? The Midnight

Boys. It's my favorite. Notice I said, not best, my favorite. I do want to say, though, now, there's a lot of talk around the streets right now that, you know, in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, it's all about the shield. Who gets to hold the shield? Well, in the ring of verse, it's about the seat next to Mal, right? And I mean, just your first episode, you had David Shoemaker, who was great, you had Jomey,

he had Daniel Chin. Obviously, you've done amazing work and binge. So I am just honored to be here, and I'm trying to do the best I can, you know, trying to be the best Mal guest that I can be. That's really sweet. Oh, buddy, that's really nice. You're making me blush. I honestly we we spend so much time talking about Marvel already the producers of the podcast working with Steve Arjuna shout out producer Steve now and always of course getting the ringer verse feet up and running and got a few moments in the last week where you know what's supposed to be a five minute conversation about the episode turns into a 45 minute one and it's like is this just we just do this on the pot let's make it to the pot I put all the

of my own superhero know how to work, to try to convince you to be here with me today. Mel, just keep it a book. You pulled a wand on me. You know what I mean? Like you used your wander trickery and bestowed upon me the role of a guest. And, you know, I was resistant as first, but you made a good point of like, hey, buddy, we do this already. Just let's do it for the show. And I'm like, I'm in. That's just a really bleak assessment of how I approach things. for the Wanda. I hope you mean, you know, the caring and nurturing side and not the version of Wanda, who, you know, Wanda Vision spoiler, in case you haven't seen it, kept an entire town

imprisoned in the X. Okay. That's not great. That part's less great. Maybe you mean the book lover and me, you know, Wanda just sitting there studying the dark old, real page turner. Yeah, real content consumer that Wanda. Ciccums, loves that, books.

True. It's true. It's true. about it. She'd be a great podcaster, actually. She probably will. I think about it. So, before we dive into the theme today, let's just pan back for a second.

How did you feel about this episode? How are you enjoying the Falcon Winter Soldier run so far? Take us into your personal fandom here for a second. Before I get into the show specifically, personal fandom, like you mentioned, a big fan of Marvel, but just all supero content in general. Definitely, I think I, my background is more in the animated. series, obviously the shows, Smallville. I'm a Smallville OG, even growing up in Lagos, Nigeria.

I had Smallville on dub tapes, and that's how I got down. And I love the original animated Justice League, which is, I mean, shout out to the Snyder Cut, but like for me, the Justice League that I rock with, original animated. So that's, you know, I have that big background in content that leans more live action, more animated. But I also briefly worked at Wonder Brothers TV where obviously, you know, that's the DCCW cast And I got a chance to hang with Grand Gustin here and there. And the Black Lightning crew, when that was first getting started, also here at the Ringer,

I've done stuff like the exit surveys, nowhere near as much as you, Mal. Like, your work in this space is well-known, well-renowned. But, you know, I do kind of dabble in this space a little bit. But to move on to Falcon and the Winter Soldier, I would say... We're two episodes in. We're a third of the way through the season already. That's amazing to think about. That is huge.

That is huge. I'm really into it. You know, it's the first time Marvel is going to real world at this level. And obviously the comparisons to Captain America, Winter Soldier are, you know, large and looming. It makes it probably the most unique MCU project so far. And I know Wanda Vision was super creative, super different. But that was still a show where you're accepting the rules of a fantasy world. Whereas this, Falcon and Winter Soldier, is very much so.

so far, like, no, this feels like there are a lot of slow scenes you're spending with characters, feels more grounded in a sense that we haven't seen before in the MCU. I also think it's a Disney Plus show that has probably the most potential for multiple seasons that includes legacy characters, right? Excited for the show so far. Yeah, that's a great point about how anchored and rooted in reality this show is. And that segues nicely into our theme for today. Hidden agendas, secrets, what don't we know, what don't the characters know, and why?

And then how will everybody respond when these secrets, many of which should never have been secret in the first place, come to the fore? What happens when those agendas are revealed? I want to start today with a monumental sequence in this episode. a monumental sequence for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier as a season of television, and a monumental moment for the MCU, which is Sam and the viewers meeting Isaiah Bradley. Isaiah Bradley, the first black Captain America entering the MCU. Man, what a reveal. What a monumental reveal. Absolutely incredible.

Yeah, I felt sure entering the season that we would meet Isaiah. in part because of the themes of the show, the focus of the show, how central race and racism in America was going to be in the show. And also because Malcolm Spellman, show creator, head writer, told Marvel fans that they should read truth, red, white, and black, which is the seven-issue 2003 miniseries drawn by Kyle Baker, written by Robert Morales that introduced Isaiah into Marvel Comics canon. He was on the Vanity Fair Still Watching podcast with Joanna Robinson after the first episode,

the Falcon premiere, and Joanna asked him, what would you recommend for people who are interested in this show that they prep with, right? What movie should they watch? What should they read? and he recommended Civil War, Captain America Civil War, for a film. Clearly, Winter Soldier and Civil War, and of course First Avenger, I mean, the entire Cap Canon deeply informed aspects of this show. And then he said, truth for the comics reading suggestion.

Noted to Joanna that the show would be veering from the comic canon, that it wouldn't necessarily be the exact beat-for-beat rendition, but still pointed people in that direction. Quick recap of the comic story, which, again, I think the throughline of it and the thematic resonance of it will be the same between the comics and the show. Some of these specific details, time frame, et cetera, are a little bit altered. So in truth, we learn that Isaiah was one of 300 black soldiers that the government experimented on in order to. In order to be a little bit of to try to replicate the super soldier serum. This story is inspired by many horrific events

from real life history, including the syphilis experiments in Alabama, which ran from the 30s into the 70s. Only a handful of men survived the initial experiments in the comic. It is just hideous. the families told that all of these men died in an accident. The truth is hidden from them. And eventually over the course of the run, Isaiah is the only survivor.

And he is sent into a Nazi death camp. Steve Rogers is actually supposed to arrive to go on this mission. Cannot get there. Isaiah takes the Captain America uniform. He goes alone into this absolute hellscape. Is he celebrated as a hero? No, he is court-martialed. He is imprisoned for 17 years

for quote-unquote stealing Captain America's uniform for the mission. And then later in life, Steve learns about him, goes to meet him. We see that in addition to that atrocity and injustice, the serum itself has taken a terror. terrible toll on him. But he is a legend. He is a legend in the black community. There is a wall in his home that is covered with photos of people coming to meet him and celebrate him.

I think all that is great backgrounds for us to have when we talk about this scene and just how monumental and amazing this scene was and poignant this scene was. And I actually want to start with, that's Carl Lumby, the actor. This is one of the reasons why representation matters, because this man has a great career with a lot of projects, but you might have never really heard of him, right? Up until now. But just to kind of really run through some highlights of his, he's done voice work across all kinds of superior projects, Batman, Black Panther series.

He's also been the voice of Silas Stone. Shout out to Cyborg, Borg Life. Also, in addition, he's Alter Carbon, Season 2 with Anthony Mackie. He was involved in that show. It's a Netflix show. But mostly, and I'll say this, and this might call him if it's a hot take, But I would say Carl Lumbly is to the Martian Manhunter, what Kevin Conroy is to Batman, what Peter Cullen is, Optimus Prime.

He's played that character, voice over that character in animated and video games and multiple projects. And I'm glad to see that he, hopefully in this series, he's finally going to get his flowers and way more recognition for the amazing work. Because this scene, my goodness, shot so well. you know, the first shot you see of him is, you know, behind his head, so you don't see the face yet. And then the amount of this tight shots in this scene is used so effectively, just so you can see that pain on his face, his line delivery, as you heard in the show, and it's so strong. So what do you think about that scene specifically and how that transpired? I mean, I thought it was absolutely phenomenal, very painful, very sad.

we should mention, in addition to the show changing the 17-year prison time frame to 30 years, another distinction is the historic time frame in the comics, World War II, in MCU canon. We learned because of the backstory between Bucky and Isaiah, Isaiah ripping off half of Bucky's arm. This was the Korean War. Okay, so this is in the 50s. This is later, Baltimore. He's there with his grandson, Eli. And I loved this for multiple different reasons.

We're going to get into some Young Avengers talk in the mailback today. So stay tuned for that, right? We'll circle back to Eli's role in the Young Avengers. He is, of course, Patriot, one of the founders of the Young Avengers. But seeing the generations in that home, seeing the impact that this scene has on Sam and the response that Sam has to it is something that I want to spend a few moments on in a second,

but to your question about just the scene itself, I thought it was important that a moment like Isaiah hurling the little case into the wall, which is when kind of the light bulb goes off, right? He has super strength. He has the serum in him. was not actually the most important part.

And I think that's pretty crucial, right? Because, of course, this is an element in the plot, right? This is moving the plot forward, the role that the serum is going to play in the show with the Flag Smashers, Powerbroker, Bucky, convincing Sam that they need to go find Zemo because of everything Zemo knows about Hydra's secrets and the serum over the years.

Of course, that is central to the plot. But that's not what this scene was about. That's not why it was important, right? This scene is about what the world has done to them and not done for them, which is, of course, as we talked about after the premiere, absolutely elemental to how Sam is processing the decisions that he makes, why Sam handed over that shield, which of course surfaces again in this episode when Bucky continues to challenge him on it, right?

Correct. No, 100%. I think Sam's, you know, mainly with Carlo Ombly's acting, you're focused on the pain that he's showing, right? But also too is Sam's reaction to this pain, right? Sam realizing this. And if you go back and watch it, which I'm sure you've done multiple times like I have, you notice Sam only gets one worded. And that is Isaiah before Isaiah kicks him out of the house. And I'm hoping that that's not the last thing he says to Isaiah. I'm hoping that, you know, he returns and they have a proper compensation.

But that was interesting to me because what Sam's reaction is, it shows you two things. One, it's, again, just a hidden history and the pain this man went through. But also there is a certain layer of like, and what he says to Bucky on the outside of, you mean to tell me there was a black super soldier and no one told me? There's a secret history in this country of black innovators, black trendsetters, Trailblazers that are for long periods of time, unknown or just not in the mind of the public. I mean, Hidden Figures is a movie that came three or four years ago, and everyone was asking, how didn't we know this prior to this, you know, Hollywood movie?

Like, they should be taught. And so you can see that in Sam's reaction, the amount of, like, no one told me that was a black super soldier. And it's fascinating to see where this character is at the end of the series, because we all, often think about the MCU version of Avengers and characters as Steve First, aka the First Avenger, Captain Marvel second, early 90s. Is Isaiah going to be in a place where we fans now put him in the middle of that, like Steve, Isaiah, and then Captain Marvel? I'm fascinated by that. Like, how substantial is his legacy going to be after this? I'm expecting it to be huge. Boy, I think that's a great point. Because if you think about a line,

like, you know what they did to me for being a hero. They put my ass in jail for 30 years, people running tests, taking my blood, coming into my cell, even your people weren't done with me. Bucky will later connect that final aspect of the line to Hydra. Correct. But pair that with the, I think, heart of this scene, the moment when Isaiah says, you think you can wake up one day and decide who you want to be.

It doesn't work like that. maybe it does for folks like you. Incredibly powerful moment. Yep. This show, phase four of the MCU, you know, we talked a lot in last week's episode about what is the future of the MCU. And I think that it's very apparent. It was even before the show started, but it's very apparent after this scene.

It's very apparent two episodes in that part of the mission of this show is asking that question and really asking us to think about that. And so to your point about what could Isaiah's place in how fans think about the MCU and how fans think about characters in the MCU, their history, it's a living document, right? And it is actually Marvel's responsibility and our responsibility is consumers to ask ourselves those questions and take them seriously. I think that the context of this conversation with Isaiah is the other thing to think about, right? you have what came before it and what came immediately after it. Before is the black falcon exchange with the neighborhood kids. And then after, of course, is the sequence with the Baltimore police, the police who come up and profile Sam and harass Sam for no reason.

He's just having a conversation with Bucky, as he notes. And why do they stop? Is it because they realize that they are doing something that is racist and foul and wrong? No, it's because one of them recognizes that he's an Avenger. It was great to see that on camera because people might think, oh, that's on the nose. No, that's real life, you know? And it's like, again, going back to representation, it's not just the good, it was also the bad, and seeing that and, you know, bringing that to the consciousness of people, that happens. That absolutely happens. And you only get let off because you're star athlete

X or star celebrity Y, and some people don't even get that luxury. But just even going back to your point of the mission of the MCU in phase four, I think Disney Plus adds a new wrinkle to Marvel storytelling in the sense of the good old flashback, right? We saw that in Wanda Vision with Socovia, right? We've heard of these sort of stories that exist in bubbles and we've never seen, because that's to quickly backtrack, the reveal scene with Isaiah was so amazing that we don't care that it breaks the cardinal sin of show, don't tell, right? It just tells us a story without giving us any actual footage or flashbacks, but I still hope there is a flashback coming up in the future. And I think that's where Disney Plus comes in where it's, you know,

Hawkeye and Black Widow and Budapest, Secret Avengers era of Cap and Falcon. Maybe there's some flashbacks there we get in the future season of this. And obviously, most personally, is the Korean War and this battle and the bar and go yang. And, you know, we talked about this off very and I'll bring this on air. It's like, is there a chance we get a special one-off episode? Maybe not an entire episode. Maybe it's a cold open of Isaiah in his heyday and showing off this battle to some degree. It would have a strong parallel to Watchmen from a couple years ago where, you know,

the episode of Hooded Justice very, very similar in terms of like, oh, you didn't know this hero, you know, the legacy of a certain hero who was black. And so. Unbelievable hour of TV. God. So good. So, so strong. So I'm curious to see if we're going to get a little bit of that. And if I were to predict, and I know we'll get to some more theories and predictions later, I feel like we're going to get at least a cold open where we see Isaiah in this heyday.

I love it. I'm in. I mean, I want as much as we can possibly get. I wonder if, to your point about perhaps a cold open, I think that if we pair some of these questions and aspects of this, scene. How did Sam respond? What is Sam thinking? What will he want to know more of? I think the idea of Sam going back to Isaiah and trying to speak to him again can be the on-ramp into getting that flashback, getting that sequence, learning more. I mean, who knows? Maybe we'll get an entire spin-off. Maybe we'll get an entire Isaiah show. And then again, also, that's where you get back to Eli and the fact that Eli was in this scene and knowing his role in the comics and all of the Young Avengers set up that Phase 4 is doing so far. I think that the Bradley family is going to be central in the MCU moving forward.

I do want to talk for one more minute here about the way that Sam challenged Bucky on not having told him this. And the fact that Bucky hadn't, which is fucked up. Okay. Why didn't you tell me about Isaiah? How could nobody bring him up? I asked you a question, Bucky. And Bucky, his attempt at justification is to say that he didn't tell anybody because Isaiah had been through enough. Okay. Flipside, let's consider what actually leads them there. Bucky wants the shield back. Bucky wants to know how all of this serum is out. there after the flag smashers dusted them on top of the semi-trucks and they realized they say eight because that's who they've faced up front who knows what the actual count is right if bucky had not followed sam to munich if he had not seen that the serum or some powering up method right which we'll get to more later in our theory corner is out in the world and if he had not

as a result of all of this, and of course, a result of their numerous interactions with John Walker over the course of this episode, which we'll get to in a couple minutes, set himself on needing to reclaim the shield. Then would he have told Sam at all? How long would he have kept this from Sam, right? And then you can't help, I think, but think of our guy Steve Rogers, to be clear, we love. But who made the judgment call that it was up to him to tell Tony or not to tell. Tony about his parents, right, which is the pivotal moment in Captain America Civil War and the reveal on which Zemo's entire plot to tear apart the Avengers hinges. So that's disappointing from Bucky. Super disappointing from Buck, right? It's, I would say, though, just to backtrack,

and I'm not defending his lack of communication on this. But one, we know he's not a good, he's not good at texting back. He might just be good at communication across the board. Emails, you know, FaceTime. The only person further behind on texts and emails than me is Bucky. There you go. But I would say this, though, Buck hasn't had a lot of time to process things even outside of his personal self and his issues he's been through. If you think about it, from Wakanda, right into war again, and then, you know, getting bleat.

And he says as much in the first episode, right? He says that he hasn't had any time to. really process all of this. Exactly. So if there's any defense of that, and there really isn't, that would be what I would present to the jury. But real quick, before you move on,

I do want to, you mentioned Eli earlier, who was actually played by an actor named Elijah Richardson, fairly new, fairly young. I am hoping that this doesn't happen to him, but there isn't a great track record of MCU kids who opened the doors. Okay, Cassie Lang, the end game, played by Amher Foreman. She got completely replaced for upcoming admin and the WAS CONTAMania.

She absolutely got replaced and she found it on Twitter and everyone felt sad for her. Very bad. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Let's talk about John Walker. Friend or foe? And either way, for how long? Because it was quite a journey in this episode on. Overall, where were you on John Walker last week?

Right. The reveal at the conclusion of the premiere. Where were you after the opening sequence in this episode, the time we get with him at his high school, the Good Morning America interview, all of that? And then where were you at episodes end? Because I think before we kind of go beat by beat, it's fascinating to just pan back and assess what I assume is a very different answer from the beginning of the episode and the end of the episode. End of episode one, I was very much like Sam infuriated, not just because he has a shield, but also because Henry Jackman, who was a composer of this and also was in Winter Soldier and Civil War, has a cynical version of Capp's theme underneath John Walker.

And that upsets me because that theme brings to mind Steve Rogers. And I get again, it has some hints and some tones of a much more cynical version, which obviously is foreshadowing. but it's still like, no, no, no, bro, that's, that's Caps theme, bro. Hold the, that stay to fuck back. The name of the episode, of course, right? Exactly. Take me off.

So the beginning of Star Spangled Man, I have, I'm out to throw a lot of seas at you. But before I do, the beginning, it, in the locker room, yes, it shows some sort of vulnerability. But it also shows what we'll get to in a second, a level of, like, self-importance. Like, even him just taking off the nameplate of the locker to reveal, JW 10 in his heyday. It's like, you know, still just looking back on his glory days. But I did like adding the amount of complexity. And that's one C I'm going to throw at you early on about that character.

But as the episode progresses, the man is so confidence with no charisma is cocky. And you get a good amount of that. However, you throw a little dash, a little dash of corny. and that's how you end up with Costco Cap. And that's exactly what John Walker is. Right? It's like he has, he wants to be funny, he wants to be liked, he has some quips that don't quite land,

and it's just like this guy. And then he ends it, you know, punctuates the episode with the line of, stay the hell out of my way. And it's like, you know what? I'd much rather deal with that, John Walker, who's upfront and honest about his intentions of who he is, like going back to hidden agendas, then the one that's trying to be liked

and trying to play ball. You know what? Just keep it above. Be who you are, buddy. Interesting. Yeah, that's a good point. Like how much of the journey we took in the opening minutes of the episode

was an effort to actually make us feel somewhat empathetic to this character that based on the way the premiere concluded we were reflexively bound to resent and hate, right? and how much of it is about almost luring us in for a minute into this false sense of possibility, right, with John Walker, before realizing this is not going to work. And, like, to be clear, I don't think it has to be an either or. I think, frankly, it will be more interesting if it's not an either or he's not just purely good or purely bad and is a, if you want to stick with the C theme for a minute, complex, like a complex character who is a complex person. who was motivated by in some aspects and noble desires and in other ways,

maybe misguided, myopic, selfish desires, because that would make him a human being, you know, and that would be more interesting to watch ultimately. But I like the cockiness and charisma point is a really crucial one, because, of course, who had both of them, Tony? And that's why Tony's the best, right? Because you need that balance, that alchemy, so that they all, those aspects of that persona work together. 100%.

And by the way, shout out to Costco. I called him Costco cap. There's no disc of Costco. You're just working for that ad read, going for that sponsorship here. I know. Just shout out to him. I found it fascinating. His little shield drills that we see a little montage of.

You know, it's a very, like, you get the exposition about his body being studied. And it's like kind of what you hear about, like, I'm a big soccer fan. So it's kind of what you hear about Cristiano Ronaldo and LeBron James, these specimens of the, you know, human condition, right? And it's like you hear that a little bit about John Walker, even if he doesn't have any super strength of speed, he clearly is more physically gifted than the average human. But I will say this, though, the shield, I don't think it's that hard to throw around. If you go back to age of Ultron, you know, Hawkeye has, you know, put some spin on that thing

when Ultron first attacks him. Like, let's just be real. If Hawkeye can do it, anyone can do it. Hey, shout out to Hawkeye, but yes, that is true. Clint. Hope you well. Hope you haven't been on a serial murder spree

as Ronan anytime recently. We're all really pulling for you. Oh, yeah. So John, the high school scene. I'm interested in the way that you framed the locker room moment pulling off the label. And now listen,

I'm an easy mark for this stuff, right? I'm very willing and ready as a viewer or a reader to get sucked in to that nostalgia, somebody longing for their youth, those touchstones of who a person was before they became how they are, but not really before, right, how one necessarily informs the other. And so I thought the way that that whole sequence was structured was quite smart. Now, maybe people who are more cynical or discerning than me right away were like,

fuck this, I'm out, right? Another C, cynical. I felt myself like getting pulled in more than I wanted to and more than I knew that I should, but that's why I thought it was really well done, right? You know, you're primed to view him as the government's new symbol. And to be clear, he is definitely that. And he kind of embraces that. You know, there's that moment that with the government.

Government. You know, can't wait to pose for a selfie, right? But then you balance that with the huge. humanizing aspects of the sequence and that kind of memory lane like nature of the locker room scene in particular. Played sports in school. Liked to have sex before the big game, you know, has an amazing exchange with his wife, Olivia, where she talks about how she remembers sneaking in to visit him before the games.

He's like, that's probably why we always won, you know, like Tim Riggins vibes right there. They have that cute little, like, pinky kiss thing. they do, very humanizing all of it. He has the best pal. Maryskins, aka Battlestar, also much like John Walker, U.S. Agent, a character from the comics. What do we learn in that moment that I think is really interesting, though? Time frame. I'm always looking for these time frame clues.

Hoskins says that they were prepping for a special ops mission two weeks ago, two weeks. So, you know, you mentioned something like the Shield Training montage. He has not had a lot of time to work with that thing and learn before he's been trotted out to be paraded in front of the public, which of course, you mentioned the song already. We mentioned the episode name already. You can't help but recall that aspect of the Steve Rogers plot in Captain America, the First Avenger. And the way that even though that's a key part of. Cap's origin, Steve really resented that part of it. You know, you think that to, yeah, like him sketching in his little sketchbook and the

conversation that he has with Peggy where she says, you know, are these your only options? And he talks about how this was his dream all along, you know, the longest time I dreamed about coming overseas, being on the front line, serving my country, I finally got everything I wanted and I'm wearing tights. Now, John Walker has a long, long service record, which we hear about. that's not his story. Hoskins has an interesting response to John in this sequence, where he says when John is expressing, you know, this moment of vulnerability, right?

This has all been great, but it's a lot of handshakes, it's a lot of suits, it's a lot of speeches. It's like it's not what I thought it would be aspect, and part of that is the pressure, right? What does Hoskins say? This is the job, John, all of it. Star-spangled man with a plan. Yep.

Invoking the name of the song. Yes, correct. And episode name, as you mentioned, it's funny because even their relationship is interesting. Like, in Hoskins, his actual last name, I loved Sam's response to him. Like, a guy shows up hanging out a helicopter with tactical gear. I'm going to need a little bit more than Lamar Hoskins.

And then Bucky's response to that, just like the old man who's just tired of this bullshit. It's like, you know what? Battlestar, that's your name? Okay, stop the car. I'm out. But it was funny, just their Battle Star and John Walker, their relationship is interesting because it's like kind of got some serious beep up and rock steady energy to throw in a little,

you know, teenage mutant turtles in here. It's like at points in the, you know, at the police station where they're hanging outside and playing with the sirens, when they pull over to try to get Samma Bucky in the car, it's like he knows his place, Bidersora does, right? And he's the number two bully to the big bully who just kind of gets it. So even the fight scene on the trucks, right, the semis, they're smiling the entire time. They're just so excited to be there.

And once they land, they have that little corny handshake that they do. They are so excited to be part of it. I know, but it's like, who does that in the middle of battle? Like, they are so pumped to be there. And that relationship and back and forth is going to be interesting. Obviously, the battle starts played by Clay Bennett. I'm excited to kind of see that dynamic come to fruition and how that shows spots across the season.

But absolutely just those guys are so happy to be just to be there. And they want to be like they want to be known as the guys. And that's going to be their downfall. Okay. So that's, let's dive into that for a second. Because I think that that is true, but wrapped up in the inverse as well. Because what's one of the things that we hear John say in the. this opening sequence. This is when he's talking to his wife. He says, this is different. This is

everybody in the world expects me to be something and I don't want to fail them. Now, that doesn't mean that what you just said isn't true, that he doesn't want it, that he isn't relishing it. But there's this, this sense of the weight, right? The burden. And so you hear a line like that and you think, okay, maybe this will be okay, because that's actually a crucial element, that check you have on yourself, right? The discomfort that he seems to feel when he's doing the interview, not just like the rehearsing of the lines, but the surreal nature of it,

part of which is exhilarating and part of which is kind of scary. That's the thing that starts to change, though, over the course of the episode. And it starts to change actually right there in that interview because we learned some crucial things. We learned that his service record is impeccable. Three Medal of Honors. First person in American history, right?

Amazing. He worked in counterterrorism. He worked in hostage rescue. Peak physical specimen, as you noted, the government studying his body at MIT. The interviewer says that he tested off the charts in every measurable category. What does he say in response to all this? He says, look, here's the thing. I'm not Tony Stark.

I'm not Dr. Banner, okay? I don't have the flashiest gadgets. I don't have super strength. But what I do have is guts. something Captain America always had, always needs to have, and I'm going to need every ounce of it, because I got big shoes to fill. Now, I want to chat with you about this for a minute

because that moment right there, that line, despite it seeming quite reasonable and almost humble on the surface, oh, there's humility here, is when, despite all of the wonders that we're hearing about our stomachs, I think, collectively as you started to clench a little bit. First is just the adjacency of that sequence. That's when we see Bucky, you know, watching that part of the interview.

Still no furniture. He's not using furniture. No bed, no couch, just sitting on the floor. Look on his face crushing, especially when he's watching John say that Steve feels like a brother to him. Second, though, if John Walker really does not have super strength at this point in the story and is really not powered up, which I will just note that initially when he said it here, I thought was bullshit, in part because of,

all of the boasts about his off-the-charts ability, how quickly he's learned how to use the shield, etc. But by the end of the episode, I believed, because I think that that sets up some future plots with the power broker who we're going to talk about in our theory section today. It means that he's the model, right? He is elite.

He is the cream of the crop. Now, to be totally clear, his service record is heroic, remarkable, incredible. We have to think for a minute about what MCU canon has taught us. what Erskine taught us back in Captain America, the First Avenger, when Phillips wanted to pick Hodge and Erskine wanted to pick Steve. He has a clear choice. Now, why did Erskine ultimately pick Steve? It's that amazing all-time iconic quote about compassion, right? The strong man who has known power all his life may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength and knows

compassion. The best hero and the best Captain America hasn't necessarily always been the best at everything already in his life. It's a great way to kind of lay it out. But just to add on to that, Hoskins also has a line in the locker room scene where he goes, you can't just punch your weight out of everything now. So that, you know, that obviously teases a much more, for lack of a better word, valent past that John Walker has. Maybe there's a thirst for this that he has. And we know with Steve and Tony would always like Tony Ultron would always like poke fun of Steve of like Steve you can't live without war. But Steve was always from the angle of like wanting to help and save people. It was never just like a bloodthirst for battling, right? And so with John Walker, we get some hints

of that of like this guy just wants to be. Again, going back to the semi-truck battle, my man is smiling the entire time while they're getting their ass whooped. But he's so happy to be part of the mix and be fighting. So I'm curious to see how that, you know, unfolds as a see. season progresses for sure. One quick note, Wyatt Russell apparently auditioned for the role of cap. Years way back when, and that's fascinating because I think such a great casting job. But just to kind of throw it in there, what if Marvel messed with us, going back to all the Rid Richards' speculation for Wanda Vision and cast John Chisinski as U.S. agent?

That would have been messed up, and I'm glad they did it, and I'm glad they went to Ryan Russell. I don't know if John Kaczynski would have taken the role, but I'm just glad Wyatt Russell is a guy because he fits perfectly. What if, that's an interesting one. What if instead they had cast Mephisto as cap? I know. I know. What would you have thought about that?

It's full on. I know. Still getting Mephisto tweets. I love it. It's a great bit. I'm all in. I do think like it's worth just continuing to hammer home the point that more than one thing can be true at once.

And John Walker can genuinely want. to protect people and help and fight for people, which he says, and which is surely true, and also be a little more drawn to the glory. You know, we've lost track of the number of times over the last few years. We talked about the idea of, like, the reluctant leader, but that is such a core idea, I think, in fantasy storytelling, that the person who does not seek it out is often the one best suited, you know, whether you're talking about Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, on and on, And on the Marvel, the list goes, right?

That's obviously elemental to Steve Rogers' character. Yes, he kept going and trying to enlist, but it wasn't for glory. It was because he felt like he had to try, right? There's that exchange with Erskine about the bully. You can't be the bully. You have to want to stop the bully. That's what it all hinges on. We don't know enough about John Walker yet.

But the fact that we're asking those questions is pretty compelling. And again, over the course of the episode, we start to lean more into the camp of mistrust. There are plenty of moments where it seems like everything he's pursuing is fine. Like,

is wanting to team up with Sam and Bucky inherently bad? Well, specifically, he wants to team up with them in a certain way. It's like... That's the thing.

Going back to sports, right? There are some athletes and some players who, yeah, they want to win championships, but the only want to win championships is option number one, right? I'm not going to be number two to you. And, you know,

RIP, Kobe Bryant, but obviously we know, like the split between Shaq and Kobe early on was because Kobe wanted to be his own, wanted to be his own leader, wanted to have a chance to win the finals and MVP's. And that's completely fine. So specifically, there's some people who would just, yes, they want to be part of a team, but they only want to lead a team. And, you know, that role of leadership isn't suited for everyone. And so to quickly go back to your point about the idea of the reluctant leader, right, I think, and I hope that plays a role in Falcons' progression and character arc this season, because he's clearly reluctant to take the shield.

And so hopefully that comes full circle where he eventually grabbed that shield and then Phil's earned from that point of view. The global repatriation Council Exchange was another one where you see that Sam is willing to engage in this conversation with them about the state of the world and what people are doing and why. When Sam asked why they're there a part of it, why they're there. Hoskin says, well, they provide the resources. We keep things stable. And then what does John Walker say? He says, violent revolutionaries aren't usually good for anyone's cause. To which Sam replies, usually said by the people with the resources.

You're right. Freely and boastfully saying, you know, we're the government. We're the ones who are in a position of power. Think about the characters in the MCU who are associated with government oversight and control. Like, anything that makes you, this is one of my MCU rules, anything that makes you think of Thunderbolt Ross, I'm out right away. Just from the jump. You can't trust it, right? You can't.

Challenging the people in positions of authority and power. And again, when you associate it with the Captain America trilogy of films in the overall arc, even Steve, as Captain America, questioning shield saying it wasn't enough to just cut out hydro you had to take it all down. That's elemental to these stories. Sam was, of course, appalled by the wingman comment from John Walker. Another misstep from John Walker there. Always that last line. Oh, God. And then John's showing up at the station. That was another one where it's like, all right, we've, we've probably seen enough here. He is supposed to have this history with Dr. Rainer, but is a total dick, right? I thought it'd step. been says that Bucky's sessions are over.

Yep. And then we go at the moment you already mentioned with the award of advice then, stay the hell out of my way sequence outside of the station when Sam and Bucky refuse the latest offer. So doesn't bode well. Does not at all. I'll say this to wrap because I know we got to move on to Bucky in a second. And it's, you know, you name this section so accurately friend of foe.

And the reality is, and we say this in, I say this in sports all the time with all the takes flying on Twitter and all that nonsense. It's rarely ever X or Y. It's oftentimes X and a little bit of Y, maybe a little bit of A and B. And I think this entire episode could be wrapped into that. It's like, even Sam or Bucky. Like, there's definitely still some schism there. And so it's how, you know, who's a friend, who's a foe, who's a little bit of both. We know Zemo as a villain, and the episode ends with them reaching out to Zemo.

That was a strong theme in the entire episode. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably,

going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Let's talk about Bucky. We wondered after the premiere how, how Sam and Bucky who were not together

in the first episode would reunite. And here, eight minutes into episode two, which again, for my personal preferences, you know, I have a full hour later than I would have liked. But we get it at last. They're together. We get the big,

three androes aliens wizards exchange that pop that chemistry between them that pairing of this real dislike that they have for each other you know they don't really enjoy being around each other and that energy that just bubbles to the four when they are in each other's presence you know what's the first thing that bucky says shouldn't have given up the shield good to see you too buck so it's just great starting there, to have them together sharing scenes. It's great. I love it. How about you? Love it. Love it from the jump. And it made sense that this is why they came together, right? Like, just going back to Sam watching John Walker on his TV screen and just like, you know what,

let me finally respond to Sam and go see what's up with this dude. I would say, though, like, in that cyborg brain offense, he's had some great lines, right? So in episode two, he had the line about it. I have to say that was not nice from Sam, the cyborg brain line. It's like, Bucky's gone through a lot. You know, he's, he's trying. Been through a lot. Right. But he's had some great lines. In episode one, we got the exchange with him and this therapist who you mentioned earlier

of when she says, hey, you're free and he just nicely follows up and says, free to do what? And it's just, you know, kind of sits there, right? And episode two, he's talking to Sam and it's like, if Steve was wrong about you, maybe he was wrong about me. And again, it's just like, this guy trying

to find meaning in life as a 106-year-old with no friends. And I feel for him. I absolutely feel for him, even though, yes, as noted, he should have definitely looped in people earlier about Isaiah. But, you know, you got to feel for Buck. My eyes welled up. I felt myself on the verge of tears watching him, watch John Walker, and then the line you mentioned, maybe he was wrong about me. Because those are heart-wrenching moments. And I think there's going to be a lot of that for Bucky throughout this season. I don't think that just because he's back in the fight, what has he told us time and time again? There's always another fight. He is going to, or the show is going to want him to put aside this assessing, this assessing of what has happened to him and where he is

in his life. And I thought this episode did a really good job of that. You know, what does the shield represent from Bucky's perspective? His lifelong friend, of course, Steve Rogers, but also, more specifically from Bucky's point of view, the most, the most of the manifestation of Steve never giving up on him. Steve rescuing him and the 107th infantry when Zola and Red Skull had taken them captive back in First Avenger. Steve refusing to keep fighting Bucky, the Winter Soldier, in the Winter Soldier aboard the Insight helicarrier that like soul-wrenching. You're my friend. You're my mission. You're my mission. You're my mission. You're my mission to finish it because I'm with you to the end of the line.

Oh, love that. Steve choosing Bucky over Tony, the Avengers, good standing with the law already that standing quite complicated at that point by the Sikovia, of course, of course, but in Captain America, Civil War, on the list goes. And so he's heartbroken and he's lost because his lifelong friend is not there to help him find these bearings and these moorings. And it's not just the friendship. It's the belief.

And the way that that belief allowed him. to believe in himself. But, and again, I love my guy Buck. I do. Some notes on the way he goes about these decisions of this episode. Right away when he finds Sam, you didn't know that was going to happen, right?

And he just, he oversteps. He says you had no right to give up that shield, Sam. And what does Sam say? Hey, this is what you're not going to do. You're not going to come here in your over-extended life and tell me about my rights. They also talk about literature, you know. Nice exchange about The Hobbit.

Many people on the internet have noted over the last couple days, by the way, that if Bucky actually read The Hobbit in 1937, then he would have been one of the few people in the world who had access to the UK printing because it didn't come stateside until the next year. So just the incredible flex there. People need to leave Buck alone. Buck is going through a lot, and I don't want to be the guy who's defending Buck, but I would say this.

Ever since his trip to Wakanda, his retreat, he pretty much has retired, right? Like, he doesn't want any parts of fighting. He looks tired. He shows a little glimpse of his super soldier serum when he's chasing the trucks, which, by the way, it's one of my biggest grabs by Infinity War, and they're very, very few, is that when both Steve and Tachala are charging the outside of the of the dorm to fight Thanos' minions, they are way out ahead of everybody else because obviously Steve has Super Soge Serum and Tichala is powered up by Vibyanum. I think, you know, in theory, Bucky should have been right up there with him, right? He's as fast or similar in speed, but maybe he held back because now he's using a gun.

He prefers to stand in place with his high-powered gun in one hand and rocket in the other, just spinning in circles instead of running. That's a good note. You know, and yes, this is a pro-bucky podcast. You know, we love a redemption arc. But again, part of the Disney Plus equation is more time with the characters, more insight into their thought process, more access to the decisions that they're making and why they're making them.

And so, of course, we have to assess, especially in the context of his relationship with Sand, which is the heart of the show. I mean, it's called The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, right? Where they are with each other. And while on the one hand, we as viewers love that crackling chemistry and energy that they have together. Big episode for the shippers. Big episode for the shippers.

But they're not exactly in rhythm together. And there's a lot that they don't know about each other. You know, you mentioned like the fight running up to the truck. Think about how many things almost went wrong even to get there. You know, they're arguing about Red Wing. Sam's making fun of Bucky for botching the landing out of the plane. Of course, the... Great callback.

So many callbacks. Yeah, not only to, as we mentioned last episode, all the times the Cap has jumped out of a plane, but specifically with the conversation about what's the plan. Of course, makes us think of Tony and Cap in The Avengers. I have a plan attack. Iconic Tony moment there. Love that. Which, by the way, is one of my favorite, like, rewatch,

more of a rewatch, like, plot threads. The drama that... tension that bruised early on and consistently with Cap and Tony. Yeah. Well, and there's so much history that informed that dynamic between them and having to actually push forward through that ultimately makes where they met out together so much more rewarding. And that's, you know, you can draw parallels to this show and so many other Marvel stories in that sense where it's way more compelling to have to watch the characters get there than

for them to just be like totally, oh my God, I can't wait to work with you from the jump. actually wouldn't be natural, especially for people with abilities and people who are engaged in all of these high stakes pursuits, the White Wolf line. Great moment between the two characters. Really strong. It's actually White Wolf. Huh? Love that so much. I love that Sam doesn't know. It's one of the few things that we, the audience, and we know, and Sam doesn't and the character doesn't. So that was great. There's a lot they have to learn about each other. And I think that will be one of the more rewarding parts of watching the next four episodes, and hopefully,

hopefully if your prediction is right, future seasons to come. Season two. Where do they net out in this episode? Bucky says, let's take the shield, Sam, and do this ourselves. And Sam reminds him what happened

in Captain America, Civil War. Now, granted, I do, I would feel compelled to note, they were on the run for more than just stealing the shield. I mean, that was the Accords and not signing the Accords,

but maybe more germane. It felt like that was in there to remind us about Sharon Carter, right? mentioned Sharon and it's like, are we actually going to see Sharon soon? I mean, we're two episodes in. We've yet to see Sharon and we got a flash of Zemo's profile, the side of his face at the end of this episode, but we're still waiting for him. Now, Dr. Rainer, who actually says out loud, so yeah, this may be slightly unprofessional, it does get us to that moment that you mentioned earlier. The heart of what is not

at Bucky. And really one of the most crushing moments in the, in the episode in the season to date, he asks, Bucky asked Sam why he gave up the shield. And then he says, Steve believed in you. He trusted you. He gave you that shield for a reason. That shield, that is everything he stood for. That is his legacy.

He gave you that shield and he threw it away like it was nothing. So maybe he was wrong about you. And if he was wrong about you, then he was wrong about me. and his voice is breaking. I'm about to, like, cry right now. It's really hits in the heart. And then Sam's reply is just as poignant. What does Sam say?

Maybe this is something you or Steve will never understand. But can you accept that I did what I thought was right? I mean, that's the heart of the show. Strong. And it's going to be, like, reconciling that. That is hopefully what, you know, what we see unfold as you kind of move along. Nobody helps with the reconciliation more than Zemo. Should be fine.

Totally, right? Him and his chessboard. Bucky doesn't mention, by the way, to Sam that Zemo is on his list of amends. One more thing. I know. We're not telling each other. Yeah. Yeah.

Again, hidden agendas. Hidden agendas. Real quick, you mentioned the White Wolf. I also want to quickly shout out the Black Falcon moment from earlier as well. Fun moment for sure. People have speculated, but maybe that was even ad-lib. I also think it's maybe potentially meta-commentary on a lot of recent live action black superheroes

and having the name black in front of their names. Obviously, Black Panther, Black Lightning on the DC side, Black Manta, shout out to Yaya Abdul Mateen. And then also, to some degree, because he has an Egyptian background, but as I think it's relevant to mention now, Black Adam, who The Rock recently this week announced the launch date for his movie on a DC side.

So that could have been there, just kind of poke fun of that idea. There are a ton of black spurs that don't have black in front of their names, but that has come up recently in the discourse and on Twitter, but I think that could just be having some phone with that idea too as well. So really fun episode, great reveals, but really great moments too, like the little bits with White Wolf and Black Falcon. Couldn't agree more. When we mentioned that this episode ended with the glimpse of Zemo, that is certainly one intriguing mystery and no doubt another hidden agenda. but we want to spend today's theory corner on another mystery sprinkled throughout this episode, the Powerbroker.

We will be back with Daniel Chin right after this. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to close, that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect. I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the Meta Pant, that's my number one. I need to look like I tried option.

Get 20% off your first purchase at Vior. vore.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. Theory corner time, folks. We're here with Daniel Chin. We're here to talk about the power broker who factored it to this episode a couple times. It presents a lot of intriguing possibilities for the future not only of this season of TV,

but possibly for the future of the MCU. thought this would be a good thing to chat about for a couple minutes and speculate about. Reminder, the Flag Smasher group that Sam and Bucky are pursuing, what do they find? They're stealing medicine, Bucky says, vaccines. Reasonable to deduce that while that may be true, they're also stealing serum, right? They're stealing it from the Power Burger. That seems like at least a reasonable read based on what happens in the episode. Those were all super soldiers, as Bucky says. Did they get powered from the power broker?

Then take his supply, turning on him, setting this rivalry and antagonistic course of events into our television screens. I'm going to say yes. When the flag smashers are bunking with Rudy, very complimentary shelter provider and chicken liver provider. Oh my God. A lot of tougherware there. Who tells them that they're becoming legends, that they're the Robin Hoods of the post-Blip world. Carly gets a text. Unknown number.

And what does it say? You took what was mine. I'm going to find you and kill you. Then one of the Flag Spasher says that they, quote, unquote, they have already found them, meaning presumably powerbroker's men, because as they are the flag smashers are boarding the plane at the near the end of the episode, the power broker's men arrive to try to stop them. One of the Flagsmasher stays behind to challenge them, Carly and Co. Escape.

Daniel, before we speculate freely based on those little kernels, who is the Power Broker in the comics? Yeah, so in the comics, the Power Broker is originally this guy named Curtis Jackson, and he's your very classic, like, just shady businessman with like the slick back hair, suit and tie, you know, always got us to go. heart in his mouth. It's through his corporation, Powerbroker, Inc., where it's him and his mad scientist, Dr. Carl Malice, where they basically provide this service for people that want to get super strength, where it's like a 50% chance of you going through this augmentation process where you

either come out with super strength or you get killed or severely deformed in the process. And, you know, there's always a catch in these deals. And the other. catch that they have is that the power broker says you need to take this stabilizing drug that basically helps you cope with this new power that you have deal with the side effects that come with it and all the people that take it end up getting addicted to it and it's basically ends up being power broker's way to maintain his control over them and it's through power broker ink that a lot of characters like john walker uh get powers in the comics so that's definitely how you know could possibly play in

That segues right into the first theory, which at the end of the episode, I was really hyped about. I was like, this is what's going to happen. I'm calling it. And then now a few days later, I'm like, this just seems like clearly what will happen and maybe doesn't even count as a theory. But let's talk about it anyway. Powerbroker will power up John Walker, okay? Because as you noted, that's what happens in the comics, both John and Hoskins, get powered up through Powerbroker, Inc. I think that the mentions in this episode about John not having

super strength, which again, in the moment, I was like, are we sure? But then by the end of the episode, I thought, okay, those are there deliberately to ensure that we know that that is the case. Because when Sam and Bucky get the shield back, which, unless every single shot in these trailers before the season were there just to trick us and dupe us, they will be getting that shield. then this delicate friend or foe balance that we just spent a very long time on today's episode talking about will tip. And it will lead John Walker to seeking out the super soldier strength. Now, a couple other clues in the episode, I think. He says, much to Bucky's chagrin, I like to think that I modeled my work after his own.

This is when he's talking about Steve, right? But what else does he say? This is to Bucky and Sam and the Jeep during the drive. That serum doesn't exactly have a great track record, no offense. And so I think it's not only that he will seek out power broker and get powered up in an effort to level the playing field, get the shield back, regain his standing. I think that it's the pivot. It's what pushes him into a heel turn and makes him an antagonist, hopefully not forever, but at least for a bit. What do you guys think of the theory?

It's a strong one for sure. yeah to your point is definitely a theory that seems very likely at this point right it's a matter of when does he get it as a result of... T.D. is not impressed with my theory, guys. He said it's very likely and he doesn't consider it particularly. No, it's a good one.

You had it since episode one, right? But I'm just curious of how that comes to be. Does he lose a couple more fights and then realizes, you know what, I need to go get that juice? I think them taking the shield will be the swing moment. Slight that he can't allow to

stand. And so how will he get it back? What does he need in a world where super soldiers are popping up minute by minute? He needs the secret. That's how he justifies. The power broker's version, we should be clear, right? There are many different ways in the Marvel universe of powering people up. The power broker's method of powering. Daniel, what do you think? In or out? Yeah, no, I definitely see that happening too. I think it's they're definitely singling that way. And just like in that first fight with the flag smashers, like John was taken out pretty easily. like the rest of them were. I think just the fact that he's trying so hard to be friends with Sam and Bucky

and they just won no part of it. I think he's already going to be giving into the pressure of taking on this new mantle. They're already trying to set that up a lot in the beginning of this second episode where they're trying to establish that he's trying to do right by this new legacy that he's taking over. And I think quickly, like, once, especially like with that shield, I could definitely see that breaking point where he's like, all right, Now I got a level of playing field here. No, it's a good point.

The flag the flag smashers absolutely obliterated all four of them. A related theory. And then I want to hear both of your theories. You mentioned our guy. Girl malice. Tough hang. Is malice going to enter the story with Powerbroker? Because not only does Malice work for Powerbroker Inc.

at a certain point in his story, in Captain America, Sam Wilson, the comic run that we mentioned before, Torres, Red Wings' DNA, Torres becoming Falcon, malice is the one who does that to him. Malice is the one who experiments on Torres and is experimenting in general with these genetic hybrids. Will we get like serpent solutions in the mix there too in this show?

Who knows? But I think that this is a pathway. to malice entering. The MCU, of course, have to note that malice is in a Marvel show already. It's in Jessica Jones, so whether that will be a hindrance, I'm not sure. Let's be honest, Fygia does not consider those shows, right, as MCU properties. You know that. I don't know.

Give me Charlie Cox's Matt Murdoch, man. Every day I wait for it. Please. What do you think? We get in malice? I think honestly because of that reason too I hate to make that the only reason because he's already appeared

in a Marvel property before that he wouldn't appear but I think it's also like he could just be any mad scientist I feel like malice is kind of a generic character where you could really just repurpose it for the context of this show and just fill in somebody else there

TD I know that you came with more than one theory I know you've got a bunch for us I know I came more than one I came with a 90-50-10 sort of theory slash predictions. I'm actually going to start with a 10% one because that one is more pal-a-pal-pal-related. And it just takes me back to Cardi. The leader of the Flag Smashers, so far the only face right now, who, by the way, just like Bucky, is terrible at texting back.

She sees that text, moves on. That's a tough one to reply to, to be fair. I know, right? And whoever the power broker is is a crazy person because they fully punctuate their text. There's apostrophies in there. There's periods in there. it's like, come on, bro, just text normally like a normal person, not a cycle. See, here you've lost me.

I'm a big believer in a grammatically accurate text message. In text messages? All methods of communication. I mean, I don't frown upon the absence of punctuation, but I don't want to be judged if I choose to put a semicolon in a text. Fair enough, fair enough. But I would say this in regards to Carly, I get strong Katness Everdeen vibes, right, with what they're doing as, you know,

sort of freedom fighters, District 13 Hunger Games, even when she gets to that base where they get the chicken livers and whatnot, to open the door, this little whistle that they have, right? And it's like, this gives me strong hunger game vibes. It's like, ah, these are Robin Hood and whatnot. My theory is, does she have a future in the MCU beyond the series? Because even though we're getting to meet all these superpowered beings and soldiers, the one thing we don't have is a woman with the Super Soldier Serum in the MCU so far. And I wonder if she's going to stick around beyond this, because I don't think they're going to be painted as a full-on villains, right?

There is going back to Killmonger where there is, you know, there's some truth into what he's saying that tactics are wrong, but I know Malcolm Spellman, the show winner, uses that as inspiration for this entire show. And will Catniss, and maybe not all Flag Shmasters are redeemable, but will Carly be redimable, not Catanus, sorry. And I feel like that's my 10% theory. Does she stick around?

Is she a super soldier serum-infused bean that we have for future projects in the MCU? My 50% would be, I think Red Wing is coming back in some way, shape, or form because we didn't get like a huge old, like, you know, mourning for Red Wing. And so I'm not sure how, but I do see Red Wing coming back in a future episode. So I'll hold on to my 90% of the final point. portion of this segment. But what are you guys' thoughts on those two? Wow. Colin, the final comment. I love it. Okay. I like both of those. Setting up Carly makes sense to me and keeping her around in some capacity. I like that. I could definitely

see that. And I think, you know, overall, one of the kind of overarching narratives of the MCU is certainly prevalent in the first three phases. Whether you want to say villain, I really like the way Van der Charles discussed the distinction between villains and antagonist, right? That's crucial. to keep in mind, so often the first three phases of the MCU, a villain or an antagonist was introduced and then discarded. So that's part of what's so exciting about Zemo coming back into the story, especially because he's one of the most compelling villains in the entire saga to date. And so continuing to build and build on these characters and keep them around

rather than just moving from villain to villain antagonist to antagonist story after story I like. Red Wing, here's my hope. Let's get Falcon Red Wing. like actual vampire falcon, Red Wing, the falcon living, breathing bird. Let's do it. We need a little Cosmic Cube action to build that psychic bond between Sam and Red Wing and eventually Torres once Malice comes into the MCU through Power Broker Inc. It's all coming together, guys.

No, we're going off the wall of this one. I'm with it, though. I'm with it. Daniel, what do you think about TD's theories and what is your theory? I'm actually really interested in the whole theory with Carly especially because to go off with the temperature check of it too I think just in that one episode I thought she was just a very interesting way that they're really much trying to have an answer to the blip and like the flag smashers very much fit within this context very well whether or not they're going about it the right way it's definitely like an interesting commentary on how this world was shift and with Carly like it's we still have a lot of to learn about her. But so far, like, that was, it was, I don't know, I really liked, like, the introduction to her.

In terms of Red Wing, yeah, I mean, I would love to actually see, like, a real Red Wing, too. And I think with the way he went out was being, like, snapped in half, like, or I don't know, he had to drone, but with the drone being just snapped in half, like, I feel like Red Wing's got to come back somehow, you know, Sam will find a way to fix it. That was last morning for Red Wing that there was for Black Widow at the end of endgame. Give Nat a funeral. Please, we're still fucking waiting. Tough.

Jesus. Tough. Daniel, give us your theories. Let's hear him. What do you got? Yeah, so I'm definitely just interested in seeing how the power broker actually appears since we haven't seen him yet. Like, they could definitely do something where they're remixing his character a little bit.

Like, they are with the Flag Smashes and with Carly Morgenthau, just a better fit within the context of the MCU more. Like, I'd be interested to see, one, if they make... him this you know somebody completely different from curtis jackson which by the way sorry i got to point out curtis jackson real name of 50 cent that's so true i don't know just got to point that out and malcolm spellman has has a history working on rap project so who knows if we get a 50 cent cameo in this just oh my god amazing yeah so i mean they could also just repurpose it in the way that a character that already exists in the mc u ends up being the power broker like part of me is is waiting to see if

Thunderbolt Ross ends up being involved in the show somehow just because of his connection to the Captain America movies in the past and also just very much being a part of this. He kind of represents the government in a way in the MCU and with this whole theme carry on with the lack of trust in it. And since we don't really know what happened within this, the blip and like this whole time span that's been missing, like Ross could have. He already had this long obsession with trying to recreate the Super Soldier Serum. So maybe after things have failed for him time and time again,

he's actually tried to take it in his own hands this time. I love this. I mean, nobody embodies hidden agendas quite like that piece of human garbage, Thunderbolt Ross. This is where it's interesting again to think about the timeline because this show takes place we know six months after the blip. If that fucker, Thunderbolt Ross, was standing at Tony Stark's funeral at the Eco Lodge,

enjoying the peace and hospitality of that lakeside dwelling and then embarking on a secret project to power up super soldiers. I wouldn't be surprised at all because he's fucking Thunderbolt Ross and that's exactly his bag, you know? That's his whole thing. The question I have off of that, Daniel, is do you think that there's a way then that Red Hulk comes into the MCU?

Because if we continue to look into Thunderbolts, secret projects, his obsession with the serum, his obsession with power, how long can the MCU wait to give us Red Hulk? Right. I think it just would also provide just the perfect way to revitalize this character. And like it could just go so many different directions after that, whether it's Red Hulk or like just especially with Zemo coming up, you know, connection to the Thunderbolts somehow. So there's just so many possibilities.

There's been a lot of Will Zemo be the power broker theorizing out there? I feel, and might be wrong, of course. I feel like that's unlikely because we know that Zemo's stance on the serum is, I don't want more of you, right? That's what he said in Siberia when he killed the other Winter Soldiers. And even in the trailer for this show, you know, we hear him saying Super-Supert superhero should not be a lot to exist. I don't think he wants more of them, though.

I do think the Thunderbolt theorizing is certainly in full effect. Okay, TD, you teased us on a mic-drop theory. Oh, yeah. You've called your shot. I did. Hit the home run, man. What is it? All right.

Let's do it. So in life, right? And people, we all go through this, is whether it's friendships, whether it's jobs, whether it's relationships. There's a big difference between wanting something

and not wanting someone else to have it. Right? And so let's hold on to that for a second. And again, I've mentioned Malcolm Spellman a few times and just his comments about the legacy of representation from Black Panthers to the show.

And we've seen, seen that in small ways like we've seen in trailers. There's a nightclub scene coming up. And it looks very bad boys vibe, fast and furious. And kind of reminds me a little bit of the Black Panther Casino scene as well, which, by the way, you know, Black Panther riding to the night streets when he uses his arm to hit a curb and bank one of the coolest shots in the MCU. So that's in small ways where we're going to see a little bit of more like representation, as I mentioned already. But in a huge rate, and this is where the theory comes in. And this ties back to, again, the difference between wanting something versus not wanting somebody else to

have it. I think Isaiah Bradley is going to be the reason Falcon wants to be Captain America. He's going to see, like, oh, we as a people, as a black man, we're deprived of having this hero in the past, and now I have to take on this mantle to pay respect to the OG. So that's my overall 90% theory is like, not only is his character going to be, Isaiah's character is going to a play, key role and MC moving forward, at least just in legacy and history. But that is going to be the chief reason why Falcon actually wants to shield and actually wants to be kept. I'm all in.

And as you said, I think it aligns very, very well with the way that Svelman has, has teased the show, teased Sam's arc and spoken about what the primary mission and focus of the six episodes is going to be. I like that a lot. That's a great one. I hope it comes true because I have it as my 90% dead on. So if I miss it completely, like I completely missed on Rid Richards and John Kaczynski in One Division, you guys can absolutely call me out on it.

Please do, because I was hook, line, and sinker in on that theory. Listen, more than two dozen Marvel projects in the works right now, you're going to be right about Reed Richards at some point. Look at it that way. Eventually. Well, there are a million more theories that we could talk about. Daniel, you mentioned the Thunderbolt. It's a lot of Weapon Plus talk in the wake of this episode.

Could Weapon Plus be coming to the MCU? But guess what? That's why we have more episodes, right? So another third corner coming next week. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you, TD. All right, guys, I got to say, I'm not an Android. I'm not a wizard.

I am certainly not an alien, but it was a joy being part of this big three. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. All right. It's time for the R. Are you Tony Stank Mail Delivery of the Week? Mailback time here on the Ring Reverse with the. Lord of the memes.

Jomea Deneron. What's going on? Mal, I'm thinking of adding Chief Meme Officer to my job title. CMO at the Ringerdaw, Chief Meme Officer. Very, very fancy. You know, you got to step the game up, you know what I'm saying? Let people know what's up.

CMO. I mean, you know, Marvel Hive here. You'll love an acronym, right? I love it. All right. Let's get into these questions. We got some good ones. We got some good ones. We do. We do. First one from Alec Homer. Why has Isaiah aged and Bucky hasn't?

Okay. This is a good question. Now, with two caveats up front. One, just remember, there are a bunch of different versions of the serum and of some sort of super-soldier-making power-up agent across Marvel canon designed by various people with potentially different side effects, right?

So that's just one thing broadly to keep in mind whenever assessing how two or more characters who have some version of the serum might be responding to it. The other related caveat is that we're still learning how much of the MCU serum canon

will ultimately align with comics canon, right? because there is so much decades and decades and decades and decades of serum canon in the comics. Based on what we know of the MCU specifically, though, here's my best attempt to answer this for Alec. The serum slows aging, but it does not stop it. Okay. slows it because part of the serum's impact is regeneration. But that doesn't mean that you cease aging entirely. in the MCU canon alone, we know this because of Steve, right? Steve returns from his alt timeline fucking dancing up a storm with Peggy as an old man. Okay?

And the reason that he's old in that scene and end game and Bucky isn't is because Steve went off and lived those decades, those near 80 years with Peggy. That time passed for him, and so that passage of time is reflected. Now, we should say, like, there are, there is comics precedent for the serum being removed from somebody, including Steve. This is part of the Captain America Sam Wilson arc, actually, and then rapidly aging up. But I think that based on the presentation in the MCU, we're supposed to deduce that Steve aged, but much more slowly than a normal person would over that very, very long stretch of time. So with Bucky, presumably Bucky will age two out of cryo, but he hasn't been out of cryo for that long. And that's the key thing to remember here with Bucky and with this question.

In the main MCU timeline, he was in and out of cryo over and over again, but was in cryo quite a lot during his time as the winter soldier with Hydra. Isaiah, meanwhile, actually looks quite. young for how old in terms of just age number of years he really is supposed to be. Remember that in the MCU version, he's active in the 50s in the Korean War. This sequence here in this episode is set in 2023. So again, I think we can deduce that he has aged, but more slowly than someone without the serum. Yeah, I mean, I just think Isaiah didn't get to go under ice like everybody else. You know, he had to live his life, you know, being, you know, whether it was in prison or

outside in prison, like he didn't get to get frozen, you know, like Cap did in the 40s and how Bucky went on and off, you know, as his time as a hydra assassin. So that doesn't help with the aging. But him, he looks great for being like an old, old man. He looks amazing. He really does. Okay. Question two from John Demuzio. Which episode do you think Falcon will actually win a fight against a named character, and who will it be against? Couple things here. One, think we can make the case that Falcon beat Batroc in episode one and should be credited for doing so. Okay?

Now, yes, Bathtrock got away, alive, but I don't think the only standards for victory are do you kill your enemy or take them into custody, right? Sam ultimately achieved much of the mission. He got the hostage back from the LAF and he avoided going into forbidden airspace per Torres's orders. He thwarted the enemy. I think that counts as a win. But we should note, the question comes from what is now a track record

in the MCU of tough outcomes in fights for Falcon. I mean, obviously in this episode, the flag smashers, Carly, snaps Red Wing over her knee and the flag smashers pretty easily dispensed with Sam, Bucky, John Walker, and Hoskins. And, you know, we could spend quite a long time recounting prior fights,

but, you know, some of the notable moments that Bucky grounds Sam, right, ruins the flight suit and the Winter Soldier. The Rumlow fight before the Insight Helens, helicarrier, wreaks open the building and Sam has to dive out into the helicopter. I'm going to call that a draw. Sam escapes that in a much better state than our guy crossbones.

Yeah. Now, of course. Tick-Tac, Scott Lang, Ant-Man. He lost. Embarrasses Sam and it embarrasses him in Ant-Man, period. and like Spider-Man webs up, Sam and Bucky together at the airport fight in Civil War. So that's not great, but I do give, I do give him the win for the Bashrock fight. What about you?

I would, I mean, like, I think we got to, you know, incorporate, you know, Red Wing, you know. Red Wing put the team on his back in that scene, you know, with the missiles, you know, blowing up the helicopters. Like, most people don't have a teammate like that. You know what I'm saying? So let's put some respect on Red Wing. I love it. Also, like, let's give Sam credit for Infinity War and Endgame.

I mean, those are massive set piece, splash page battles. But Sam more than holds his own in Infinity War. It's not his fault that he got snapped. I mean, half of all the way from the universe got snapped. And obviously, he delivers the absolutely iconic portal opening on your left moment in endgame, which I think counts for something. So, yeah, you know, the MCU, let's, let's, Let's give Sam a little more respect in some of these fights moving forward,

but I do think that he deserves a few more Ws than some fans are giving him. His time is coming. His time is coming. All right. Next question from Joe Neal 31. Is Marvel actually going to do this younger ventures thing? Introed Eli Bradley, Wanda's Kids, The Hawkeye Show, or is this another content fiend like Evan Peters? Okay.

I think this is a lot. Jomi, we've been talking about this a lot. Oh, yeah. We've been going back and forth on this. It's one of the things we've been having fun about on Slack and our planning meetings. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that both of us and increasingly many MCU fans consider this. And by this, I mean the formal arrival of the Young Avengers, a guarantee at this point.

It's an absolute luck. I would put everything I own on this happening. Like, I mean, I've been calling it for a minute. But the Eli Bradley, you know, Wanda's. kids coming out. But like, even in December when Kevin Feige was announcing all these shows and stuff, he made a point to tell us that,

that Cassie, Cassie Lang is going to be aged up in Quantumania, right? We're getting America Chavez and Dr. Strange. By Catherine Newton, by the way, who's like, I mean, the way that recasting transpired was not ideal, but Catherine Newton is a famous person. So that certainly indicates that Cassie will be stature or stinger, whichever alias they go with,

whichever moniker they go with in Phase 4 of the MCU, that she will be her Young Avengers character. Yes. They made a point to let us know that America Chavez is going to be in Dr. Strange 2, right? They gave us Miss Marvel. You know, they not only let us know she's getting her Disney Plus show,

but that she's going to be in Captain Marvel 2, right? So it's going down. Yeah. Kate Bishop and Hawkeye. I mean, we don't have an Iron Ladd casting yet, but we have Iron Heart. maybe Iron Heart will sub in for Iron Lad and The Young Avengers. I mean, it's interesting because that list you went through, you know, some of it like Eli

as Patriot, the founding member of the Young Avengers, Billy and Tommy, Wanda's twins. I think, again, we all sort of consider it a given that they will return to the story much as in the comics. The moment when they dressed like Wiccan and Speed their Young Avengers characters during the Halloween episode that was like, okay, that's maybe just a wink and a little Easter egg for people, but it felt like more of a promise. And so I do not think this is just a very protracted wink. I think that this is based on what we've seen in the stories so far,

the upcoming projects, the casting that you announced, whether it's established members of the Young Avengers or other young characters who are not in the Young Avengers in the comics but easily could be in the show. This just seems like guarantee. I think the only question is whether if this is like a movie that they're released in theaters or is this a Disney Plus thing, like a TV series.

You know, I think it would be interesting to see, like, you know, we saw the Netflix defenders and that was, you know, middling results. But I think, like, an eight to ten episode series of the Young Avengers getting together would be incredible television. Like, I'm here for that. I'm ready. Like, Kevin Feige, let's go. All right.

Our last question from threat level 12 a.m. Ooh, an office reference. I love it. Was Bucky following his rule that no one gets hurt with the Flag Smashers encounter? has to be the only exception considering he jumps out of a plane with no shoot and sprints plas a moving semi without breaking a sweat.

When does he break that rule? I'm glad we got this question. Van de Charles talked about this. Bucky seeming almost like the MCU is powering him down compared to what we saw out of the Winter Soldier

in the Infinity saga. I think, I'm perceiving this as a combination of Bucky being out of practice, which to me, like, you know, the jumping out of the plane is cited here as an achievement in the question, but he kind of botches that,

as Sam is all too happy to point out, right, when he notes that he got all of it on camera. The Flag Smashers, though, just quite simply should not be able to beat him. Like, period. It actually really is that simple. A bunch of recently powered up, we think recently powered up,

super soldiers, should not be able to take down the fist of Hydra, the character who it is established canon, has altered the course of history. Think of how we hear Pierce and Zola and all of these people talk about him and what he's able to do,

not to mention what we see from him in battle. So I think it's, again, a combination of him being out of practice and more poignantly, ultimately, it's a reflection of his current state, this turmoil, you know, that as much as, He's tormented over the idea of there always being another fight and that being the nature of his existence. He's not ready for it and it's not really what he wants. And he is processing a lot about his life and himself and trying to find a way forward.

And then, yeah, I don't think it's an accident that we got the what was rule number two again line between Bucky and Dr. Rainer, a reminder that rule number two is nobody gets hurt. Maybe he is just holding back out there because he's trying not to hurt people. also that other line in the episode where Sam tells him, you know, we're not assassins. And he's trying to place it off as a joke, but like stuff like that lands. And then it hits the mark, right? Bucky also has to say elsewhere in the episode of Isaiah, I'm not a killer anymore. Like time and time again, this idea is reinforced.

So I think that it is reasonable to assume that he would be holding back because he doesn't, he doesn't want to have to confront what it might mean if he, even if he's not that person in his heart and he has control of his mind, if he does those things. again. I mean, I hear you and I'm listening to your argument you're making some great points, but I think the question must be asked. Is the winter soldier

washed? I think it's a fair question. I mean, he's 106. He says, you know, oh man, you know, he's, again, like you said, he's been in and out, like, is he on the down slope? You know, he's not putting up 25, 20, you know, 24 minutes a game, you know what I'm saying? He's not

shooting the ball well, you know, like, we got to look at our guy, but like, is he passed, is he passed his prime? Do I see correctly that you're wearing a Dodgers jersey? Oh, you know. Yes. Okay. So, you know, here's the, here's, I'm always trying to look on the bright side, you know.

So even if that's true, right? And we get some, some tough playoff outings from Buck, much like from your guy, Kersh. All right. Maybe we, maybe we still get that World Series moment in the end. Never give up, okay? I believe. Curse got his ring. All right.

That's right. You know, that's world champion Clayton Kirschaw to you. I love Kurt. You know that. I root for him. I'm always just despondent when he has a tough outing in the playoffs. It was a tough look for a lot of years, but we got it. We got it.

Much like the Bucky can't nail the landing jumping out of a plane, just very painful to watch. I just want more for him. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think like he's definitely like, you know, holding back because he, she should have sent the flag smashes all the way, you know, to hell, like, if he really wanted to, you know, he's, he's a man that, like, we, like you said, we've seen it throughout history. Nobody can stop him if he really wanted to put the hurt on somebody. So he's definitely holding back.

But I think, like he said, when he talks to Dr. Rainer about, you know, don't one gets hurt, I think eventually, you know, we have to put, you have to put that winter soldier energy back on and start beating people up. And I can't wait to see it. because the fight scenes in the show have been incredible. So seeing like a fully unleashed Bucky Barnes in this show is something I'm looking forward to. I love it.

I hope that the next time he tells somebody he wants peace, they don't say bullshit. And they say, that sounds lovely. Go enjoy your life. That's what I want for Bucky. All right, Jomey, thank you. Hey, no problem. You have a great one.

You too. All right, friends. I'm doing the staring thing again, which means it's time to wrap. Remember, follow us on Spotify, wherever you get your podcast, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ringerverse. Join the Ringerverse Facebook group. And remember to send us your mailbag questions for next week's episode. And again, get ready for a busy week on the Ringerverse feed. Charles and Jomey already

have a pod waiting for you on the first three episodes of Amazon's Invincible. Love to the first three episodes of that. Excited to keep talking about it. Van and Co. will have a Godzilla versus Kong reaction episode for you on Wednesday evening. And The Midnight Boys, Van and Charles, will be back on Friday afternoon with their instant reactions to the Falcon and the Winter Soldier episode three.

Thank you to Steve Allman, TD, St. Matthew, Daniel, Arjuna, Ram Gapal, and the entire production team for their help with this episode. And thank you to TD, Daniel, and Jomi for joining me today. I'll be back next Tuesday

for more Falcon and Winter Soldier Talk and perhaps further insight into whether a sorcerer really is just a wizard without a hat.