The Ringer-Verse - Analysis of 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Ep. 4

Episode Date: April 13, 2021

Mal is joined by Musa Okwonga of 'Stadio' to take a deep dive into the actions and themes of the fourth episode of 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' (02:07). Mal is then joined by TD St. Matthew-Daniel and they step into the probability hex to see what scenarios are more likely in the penultimate episode of the series (53:01). Then Mal jumps to the timeline to answer your mailbag questions with Jomi Adeniran (87:22). Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: Musa Okwonga, TD St. Matthew-Daniel, Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you had the chance to take the serum, would you do it? Hells, yeah. You wouldn't be worried about how it might change you? I mean, power just makes a person more themselves, right? Carly Morgenthau, Steve Rogers. And me? And welcome into the Ringervverse, here on the Ringer Podcast Network. Broadcasting from the Cronton realm of Berlin. I can't wait. Vives, vibes.

I'm Mallory Rubin, co-hosts of Binge Mode, head of editorial here at The Ringer, and it is my absolute pleasure and delight to invite you not only to Latvia, but to join us on this new podcast feed for Marvel, superheroes, Star Wars, nerd culture, fandom, all of it. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, Every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

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Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Before we dive into today's episode, a few quick reminders for everyone. First, the Midnight Boys, Van Lathen, and Charles Holmes will be with you on Friday with their instant reactions to the hotly anticipated fifth episode of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Second, of course, follow us, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ring Reverse. Join our Facebook group. Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, your friendly neighborhood spoiler warning, folks. This pod will get into plot details from the podcast.

the most recent Falcon and the Winter Soldier run to date in all of the MCU. The first four phases, comics canon, all of it. Later today, I'm going to be looking ahead a bit to the final two episodes of Falcon with TD by assessing which of the theories that have really animated the fandom are most likely to pan out, and then I'm going to head to the timeline with Joamy to answer your questions. But before that, to my absolute delight, I am going to be chatting about the themes at the heart of the fourth episode, the whole world is watching.

And really the themes at the heart of the entire season of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier so far with a very special guest. You can hear him on the Stadio podcast, on the Ringer podcast network for your football fix.

You can read him on the Ringer. You can pre-order his upcoming book, one of them. Get in there with the pre-orders. and you can bask in his MCU reference-laden tweets. Folks, it is the one and only. Musa, quanga. Musa, welcome.

Oh, my goodness, I'm hyped. I'm so hyped. Thank you for joining me. That's a pleasure. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. Me too.

I'm hyped. I'm hyped. One of my special top as well, Adidas originals. I really am so excited to have you here today to talk, not only about this episode, but about the idea of Captain America. Yeah, right, right. And how John Walker and Sam reflect drastically different manifestations of that idea and how they both inform how we and really the characters in the universe inside of the story

are thinking about Steve Rogers today. But before we get into that, want to hear your big picture of thoughts quickly. How are you enjoying the season so far? And what did you think about this most recent episode? I thought this most recent one is the best so far. I feel like it hit the Marvel. It came not quite, but it came close to the Marvel Gold Standard. The Marvel Gold Standard to me is like Ragnarok.

And there were elements of this that had, they were as good as Ragnarok. There were certain moments during the fights in the Dora Melarge, were just laying ways to John Walker where like some of the eye contact, yeah, some of the eye contact during the fight scene, it was like, yeah, this is like Ragnarok level. I feel like this overall so far is a notch below one division. because Wonder Vision was just so beautifully realized at the same time,

and we'll get into that, why that is, I think these are two very good actors at the heart of it, Phalgram and a soldier who are being underused to an extent, underused in the same way that Chris Hamsworth was underused in the first couple of Thor movies. I think they've got greater dramatic range and they're being given full credit

because there's elements where you're like, that seems brilliant, why don't they get more of those scenes? So yeah, but overall, I'm really enjoying it. I'm really enjoying it. I'm really enjoying it so far, too. And this was, I think, my favorite episode. I wasn't sure I felt that way after the first viewing.

There were parts of it that I loved. But because so much of this episode centered around the Flag Smashers, who I am not particularly invested in, I found myself just wanting more time with Sam, Bucky, Zemo, etc. On a second watch, though, I was pretty bold over by it. And I think that the reason I enjoyed it so, much and think it was the strongest of the season to date is because the themes that are at the heart of the ambition of this season of TV, worthiness, perspective, societal failings, choice

and consequence, legacy, all of the things we're going to be talking about today, were all on display in this episode. And they weren't only there for us to think about and assess. The characters were actively engaging with these ideas. And that specifically was why I loved it and found it so exciting, because I thought it really spoke to what TV as a platform and Disney Plus as a increasingly central aspect of the MCU experience can afford, which is the time and space not only to see Sam have a conversation like the one he had with Carly, which we're going to break down in detail later. Yeah. Yeah. Not only to see the. the look on Bucky's face in the flashback scene that opened in this episode as he realizes

that the hydro words and apparatus that had controlled him and dictated his life no longer holds sway over him. The space to see that growth and to see the characters engage with it, which was really exciting to me. It felt special. So while I agree with you that what, Wandavision was doing week to week minute to minute was just utterly unique. I do think that thematically, the mission of the show and its desire to grapple with pretty

big ideas is really exciting to me increasingly coming to the fore. And I think it seems clear we'll be elemental to the conclusion of the season of TV. Right. And I think that the thing I find fascinating about this is that Sam is the only person in the entire series, apart from Zemo, who is honest about what's really happening with that shield. People are not honest, they're grieving Captain America. They're not honest about it. And so what's happened is in grieving Captain America,

they're grieving America itself, the idea of America, and there's a selfishness attached to it. And the selfishness, you see it in Bucky a couple of times. He is a torture victim who's gone through horror, who's inflicted horror because of the trauma that it was affected on him. He needs Captain America to work as an idea as a cleansing. force. And the shield is very dangerous because it's being used by all of them as a cleansing force. And we know historically that when Nasham is used as a cleansing force, it never

ends well. Sam is basically completely correct. What's that amazing thing about the Tesseract? Should have left it in the ocean. And Sam actually is treating the shield like the Tesseract. They should have left it in the museum. This is the Mcuffin of this series. It's the Tessaract. It's the kind of, it's the chaos stone of this series. And anything, anything that shield is around invites chaos. I think that that's so interesting not only in terms of what we've gotten to see what Sam has granted his access to in terms of his own personal perspective. And again, perspective is one of the ideas. It's obviously very much at the fore of how these characters are interacting with not only each other, but with these symbols.

How or whether Sam chooses to still take up the mantle, what is the path to him making that choice? because there's a way to view the end of this episode and John Walker's desecration of the shield as something that needs to be undone. But I think that clearly part of the point of the show is that the blood was always on the shield long before John Walker did that. But does he actualize it?

Right. Does the shield achieve its destiny in his hands? That's the dirty secret because, and Zemo again, Zemo absolutely nails it. Marvel has this thing of putting all the best words and lines and philosophical lines in the mouths of villains. They do it with Ultron. They do it with Thanos and they do it with Zemo here. And Zemo makes that point. He says, look, Captain America, I'll give you that. He's the only person that wasn't corrupted by it. And that's the point. It's not a natural thing.

If it's such a terrible burden that only a truly exceptional human being is not corrupted by it, maybe the burden shouldn't exist at all. This is the irony that heart of the show is that Sam's going to end up as the enabler for a shield that shouldn't have that power. and he'll only do it as a desperate measure. But here's the problem, right? I was talking to a woman from the, this is quite a random reference, but I was at the Open Society Foundation in Berlin a few months ago, and I was talking to a woman from the Cultural Center for the Roma in Europe.

And they were talking about uses of populism, positive and negative populism. And she said, no, populism is a dangerous tool. You cannot use it for positive ends because it achieves its own ends. You cannot simplify a complex social situation because you're still left with populism, and that's the cancer. And this is the problem.

The Shield, in this context, is populism. It's the cancer. And Sam will maybe take it up to save civilization. But in saving it in the short term, does he damage it in the long term? And that's what he's trying to tell everyone. He's trying to tell everyone that this is not the way forward. Like that thing that Rhodes says, oh, the world's broken and needs someone to fix it, that's the danger. You're looking for a Messiah.

Yes. And well, that was obviously something that, again, the characters themselves verbalized. many of them verbalized in this episode. You mentioned Zemo being the one who is imparting these insights and pearls of wisdom, which is a... Sorry, the dancing, sorry. I mean, you should dance, you should wear a bathrobe, you should put a cookie on the end of your finger. As you're talking, you should call small children your associates as you sing them

lullabies and woo them with candy in the street. What an episode for our guy, Baron Zemo. But this choice to have a character like Zemo, impart these ideas is, I think, quite deliberate because there is wisdom there. It's, of course, very much of a piece with this larger through line of not only this season of TV, but the MCU experience to date,

you know, that idea of the villain who has a point, which is something that the showrunners have talked about a lot in discussing Falcon and the Winter Soldier. How do we balance that with our inherent and well-informed mistrust? of these characters. And that's something that, again, I think I'm really enjoying so much about about this show is that part of what is incumbent on the characters who either would presume

to be heroes or reluctantly find their way on that path, which is ultimately more interesting, and that's what we're going to talk about with Sam a little bit more later. When there is a truth that is staring you in the face and you have to acknowledge it, how do you reconcile the idea of a universal truth with your own perspective? Can those things coexist? They can. This is the thing as well. This is the key thing to remember.

What Fannos and Ultron and Zima all have in common is they're basically villains, right? They're super villains who are saying things that are absolutely true. And I was like, oh my goodness, Bain had a point. Thanos had a point. Well, yeah, they did. But that's because civil society has been eroded to such a point. The only people left speaking the truth are extremists. And the point that these things are making is civil society, and really,

let's be honest, inequality, environmental, social, political inequality is so bad the only people with platforms have to speak truth

to power are extremists because everyone else is dead. Everyone else has been murdered. Like all the good people, all the people that normally would stand between entropy

and the survivor of society have been killed. Look at our society right now. Political journalists are being murdered in Malta, in Russia, in Slovakia. Environmentalists are being murdered

all across South America. So all the people that were saying the things that Zemo is saying, the dangers of supremacy, that Thanos is saying about the environment, the Ultram was saying about AI and the dangers of war, they've all been wiped out. And that's almost the point. Like, that's what you're left with. So it's a sign. These people aren't a sign of like, oh, my goodness, the villains are right. No, they're the only ones left. You really felt that, even though Zemo is very much our portal into that idea. I think you really felt that with the exchanges that we witnessed with Carly and flag smashers in this episode, whether it was Carly speaking at Mamadonia's Memorial or whether

it was the exchange between Carly and Sam, even something like Carly's response on the phone call with Sarah, Sam's sister, when Sarah calls her a terrorist and she responds almost calmly revolutionary. Yeah. Like it's like a matter of semantics, right? as opposed to the absolute horror of the reality of the fact that on the one hand, that is inextricable from history and the human experience, right? Villan always thinks they're the hero.

But also the fact that at this point in the MCU timeline, post blip, 2003, six months after the return with the Avengers scattered, missing, dead, and this vacuum, but also people who were saying, well, were the people who filled that vacuum before really what you thought they were, that's, of course, Zemo's role. The people who are speaking and seeking to unify think that they're healing, think that they're helping, but are ultimately pursuing that agenda, their end game through violent means.

You know, there's that really, it's one of the, the, or the passing moments in the episode, actually. It's literally dietic sound in the scene when the flag smashers are sitting inside of the ruins and they were listening to the newscast about the bombing. And we hear the newscasters say that you can't deny the fact that this violent act has drawn more attention to their cause and won them more followers.

That was such a haunting and harrowing moment. Yeah, absolutely. Because you can't divorce it from reality. You can't. You can't, at the same time, though, I feel sorry for Carly, because she's the killmonger of this series. She's the villain that they can't really let you fully empathize with. So a killmonger has to murder his girlfriend. You've got to remember that killmonger's evil.

Like, he's got to do that because he's too smart and he's too good. They have to make him do something atrocious. They make her kill. And the reason I say that Sam is underused, these two series, Wondervision and Falconin, Soldier, they're all about trauma. They're all about trauma, post-traumatic stress from the blip. and fighting off that monster that was Thanos. And in fighting off that monster, they were given trauma that created new monsters.

Now, so Sam is like, what's his expertise? It's advising and counseling former soldiers in their trauma. And where is that conversation with Bucky? Where is the bonding conversation? They should have done one episode that was really boring, which is them just going shopping together. And like, all that hilarious bit about like, you know, I read Tolkien in the original.

I read The Hobbit in 1937. Great stop. They should have got, yeah, exactly. They should have had the guts to do one. This is just me being like spitballing here. But imagine they don't one really slow, Wondervision style episode of just Bucky and Sam just hanging out and bonding over like, you got to play catch up. Because we never really had it with Cap. We never, Cap never had a buddy he could kind of grow up with and be out of date with. Totally. And a little moment that we all, I think, really cherish as fans of the Captain America films is something like in their first meeting, Sam recommending trouble. man to Steve and him jotting it down in the notebook and just that glimpse that we get of what else he had written down there, you have to freeze frame and pause your screen to get that

insight, but that it's like a little precious pearl because it allows you to think. I wouldn't listen to it because of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not only what is he fighting, but what is his life like, minute to minute. What is Steve Rogers' life like acclimating to society and new? Exactly. We could have had that through Bucky. And because that would have given Bucky, the emotional depth that he does have and is not

being given fully in this. I mean, I'm not not to sound too harsh in the scriptwriters because I miss so much great stuff, but it's like I'm seeing the nuggets and I'm seeing there's genius in the script writing. It's like, why don't you take that and draw that out? It's clearly in there that clearly you can see the quality is there, but we're not extending, we're not expanding on it. Let me throw this your way. Curious what you think of this.

This is something that has changed for me, I think actually as recently as just this episode. Again, in part because of the clue hunting and sleuthing, while watching the trailers, but also just how the plot itself was unfolding in the first couple episodes. I felt pretty sure at the beginning of this season that Sam would get the shield back quickly, like before the first half of the season had it concluded,

and the bulk of the back half would be oriented around the plot, in essence, the numerous threads of the nominal villains, whether it's the flag smashers, Zemo, whoever the power broker eventually is revealed to be, and the culmination of those various threads in a tapestry of ideas, right? The payoff that none of those people really are the big, bad waiting at the end.

the main villain, the main foe, are these noxious elements in society and in people's hearts and minds that we have to tear down. So I think that particular point will still be true, but I think that to your point, I'm now thinking that that's what's going to happen

in the next hour and that the conclusion of this show is really going to be about those quieter moments and the evolution of those character arcs. And Bucky and Sam finding that together, helping each other find it, together, but crucially, really, finding it within themselves.

And maybe we'll still get more book club talk, that bonding, that introspection, that shared introspection, and the path forward that ultimately their shared desire to assess and understand can actually foster. I think we'll, don't get me wrong. I think we'll get it. I think we're going to get all of it. I think what's going to happen is the pacing of the show, I think they should have front-loaded it.

I mean, this is my own particular desire. I think they should have gone full on, like, build a character, build a character, build a character, and then go breathless for the last three. Like almost go heist type speed, almost like go Infinity War speed for the last two and a half episodes, just go fast, build all the characters. By the time the action really kicks off,

almost be slow to the point of like, where's the action? And then it hits you. And when it hits you, it doesn't stop, and it's breathless and it's adrenaline. And just cut, cut, cut. cut because what are you doing? You're basically like, you're circling the plug hole, aren't you? Everyone's back from the blip. Everyone's disorientated. Everyone's in trauma. And who is the one person who understands trauma better than anyone? Sam? Imagine if Sam had gone into the room and been

like, you're all traumatized. In the museum with Rhodes, he's like, roads, you're traumatized. Like, you're a soldier back from war. You've just seen a billion people disappear from the planet and then all return. You're all traumatized. And Sam knows that. That's the thing. He's like, that's why I say he's being underused because his understanding of Carly, of Cali, of Cali, of of John Walker. Like, he should, he would take one look at John Walker and be like, and he kind of says, it's kind of explicit that he says something's not quite right about. But he would have seen that in him immediately because he does that for a living.

He would have taken one look at John Walker and been like, which he kind of did, but it's not explicit. One look at him and been like, that man is not only the wrong person for the job, he's actively dangerous. That would have been a much bigger entry point because if he'd raised the stakes at that level where Sam was in a room with him going, you do not have the energy of cap. nothing like Cap. And the fascinating thing about Sam is that Sam overtakes Bucky in Cap's affections. The mature Captain America

loves Sam more, ends up loving Sam more than Bucky because he understands, it's really fascinating how he overtake. That to me is really quite intriguing. Interesting. I don't know if I've ever thought of it quite that way that he overtakes Bucky, but more that they reflect where he's at in his life. Yeah, these, exactly, like the, the respective context of those two spheres of Steve's life and that first Steve, the culmination of his arc, at least in the first three phases of the MCU, I'm still waiting for old man Cap to return. The heartbreaking is the Cap dies alone.

Cap dies alone in the sense that like he does, when I say dies alone, he doesn't tell anyone about his great romance and how beautiful it was. that breaks my heart in a little way. Okay. I'm curious to hear why, because I would argue that he at least, for Steve at least, it seems like he thinks that for the first time,

after a life devoted to other people, to putting other people before himself and helping them no matter what, he finally arrived at the moment where it was, time for him to enjoy that dance and him to enjoy that moment of peace. And it wasn't for anybody but himself. And not to be consumed. Yeah. Okay, that's a good point. Because, yeah, you're right. He's so relentlessly consumed Captain America ever wants a piece of him. It's like,

you know, it's funny that the way he was consumed, even before the era of like, well, there was a bit of merchandise in his era, but the mass merchandising era, John Walker's Captain America is being merchandised before he's even won a battle as cap. The merch is being sold. Everyone's got their action figures, their posters. Do you know what? Actually, Captain America, do you know, he was a lot. reminds me. He's like Jerry West, the NBA logo. You know how there can never, they can never been of a Jerry West. Sarah says that in this, in this episode when she, she calls Captain America

a mascot. And it made me think back to how Steve Rogers, in the First Avenger, one of the more poignant aspects of that movie is how he, in the path of theoretically realizing his dream, has that moment of real doubt where he feels that way, that he's being tried out. You know, we see that he's sketching the little monkey on the bike in his, in his sketchpad and Peggy has to talk him, talk him out of it. You know, are these your only options, right? When he's on the Bond tour and is basically part of this propaganda machine, he's the one who has to decide on his own,

in total defiance of Phillips and the machine around him, to go find Bucky and save the people in the 107th. Galaxy take. Galaxy take. Okay, so the job of Captain America is such a prison by the time John Walker takes it as impossible to perform. And here's why. Captain America originally was conceived as being a mascot, right? How did Steve Rogers escape that?

He punched his way out of it. He literally punched his way out of being a mascot. And then when he becomes a mascot, John Walker, and he's in the changing when he goes, this is a problem you can't punch your way out of. Right. That's what Hoskin says to him, yeah. He cannot punch his way out of being a mascot.

It's impossible to perform as cap. You know, there are things that, does that make sense? Like, it's impossible to be, the sanitized modern thing. He's doomed to fail. I love that, and I'll also debate the point simultaneously. It's a galaxy take, so why not go for it? It's a galaxy brain take. Here's the one part I'll quibble with, and I think this gets us to one of the real achievements of this episode.

Steve Rogers never wanted to be the guy who punched his way out of it, actually. That, in addition, I mean, you think about the end of this episode and the shot of Walker picking up the shield, this symbol. this symbol that at the beginning of this season, in the first episode, Sam said, as he was handing it over, symbols are nothing without the women and men that give them meaning. And we have heard Anthony Mackey, Malcolm Spellman,

Nate Moore, so many people who are involved with the show talk about that Americana and that iconography and how for Sam, for a black man in America, he cannot separate that from the oppression that is tied up in it. You see John Walker, lift that, dripping with the blood of the flag smasher who was prone beneath him, begging for his life, saying it wasn't me. Now, I'm on tangents within tangents here, but bear with me.

Because that flag match, he idolized Cap as well growing up. That's, yes, exactly. So the poignancy of simultaneously having that be a character who had said to Carly, I was a Captain America fan when I was growing up. But also, again, the show doesn't want to let us off the hook to have had Nico, that Flagmaster, be a character who said to Carly, it reminded me of the scene between John Walker, Hoskins, Sam and Bucky in the second episode when Sam says, there's always that last line. Because when Nico and Carly are talking, it's this actually pretty impassioned and inspiring speech. But then he reaches the moment where he says, heroes today, they can't afford.

to not get their hands dirty. Everything is a justification for the ends. And again, we hear Bucky and Sam talk about that. Well, if the ends justify the means, then Carly's no better then. And Bucky just used to Zemo as Zimo is just pouring his cherry blossom tears, whiskey, or whatever he's decanting at that particular moment, right? I really root for Sam because Sam is the closest thing to Cap. He's the closest thing to Steve Rogers.

And because he's the closest thing to Steve Rogers, he understands exactly how far he is, how far anyone is from the ideal. This is what I was tangent after tangent. No, no, but we have to do tangents. It's a podcast. We have to do tangents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We already knew that the thing that made Steve Rogers, Captain America, was not the shield that he wielded.

Though I do want to return to the shield in a second to kind of parse some of the other memories from the MCU that are tied up in that symbol was not Captain America because of. the outfit, the uniform, the suit that he wore. He was Captain America and a hero that people could believe in because of who he was as a person. The Erskine quote, the key to Captain America, the First Avenger, his compassion, his heart. That's what the serum amplifies. And that, that is what Sam Wilson possesses. That is what makes him. That is what makes him, the heir apparent. Again, though, should he choose to become that? And I think that based on what the show has explored to this point, Sam will have to consciously make that choice, grappling with everything that he has been grappling with to this point, weighing all of his very complex feelings.

He will have to decide whether he wants to move forward. But again, I think, that that's why he's the one to do it. It's that idea of the reluctant leader. And I think Yes, but that's really strong. And it's also, it speaks to that whole, we see it in Ragnorok, Asgar is not a place, it's a people. It's a people. It's the same thing. It's like, don't attach yourself to like blood and soil and flags. Attach yourself to an idea to values because we're going to need leaders in the world to come. The complexity of climate change and like, you know, environmental, ecological collapse is coming and like, soaring social inequality. We're going to need leaders and communities, right?

And those leaders, how many leaders, you look at like the same trope we see it in a saving private Ryan, Tom Hanks' character, reluctant leader. And everyone was like, what was he before the war? He was an English teacher. So that same thing is having respect for authority. It's not craving power without context. It's like basically taking the helm because someone has to drive the train. And the moment the train comes to arrest, you hand the controls back.

He will not be Captain America for a second longer than he has to be. I think that this is a through line of so many of the, I mean, stories in general, but fantasy stories in particular that I really love. You know, I always, when talking about this idea of the reluctant leader and worthiness, I mean, I think, of course, of Game of Thrones and John Snow, a million examples we could give, you know, why was Frodo the one who could carry the ring? But I always, always, always think about,

this line from from deathly hallows when Dumbledore says to Harry it is a curious thing Harry but perhaps those who are best suited to power or those who have never sought it

those who like you have leadership thrust upon them and take up the mantle because they must and find to their own surprise that they wear it well that is where Sam is right now and that is also

crucially where Steve was because that was one of the things I wanted to talk to about. The serum. This is the episode when Walker takes it as he is publicly executing Nico in the streets. That's after the serum is inside of him. It's also after he and Hoskins had a conversation about whether they would take it and what it does. And Hoskins, in this conversation here with John, before the later scene in which Carly kills him, says power. makes you more of yourself, which is ultimately a version of what Erskine said to Steve so long ago.

It's what we have understood as MCU viewers about why Johann Schmidt became the Red Skull and Steve Rogers became Captain America. And the thing I found myself thinking about so much throughout this episode, because it's very easy as viewers, as fans of something, to end up discussing it as though it is a binary, right? John Walker decided to take it. He wanted it. He felt so unmoored and so insecure after the Dora Melagé

absolutely annihilated him because that just pitiful moment where he says they weren't even super soldiers. That's so pathetic, yeah, yeah. Terrible! And it is, in contrast to Zemo asking Sam in this episode, were you ever offered the serum? If you had been, would you take it?

And Sam says no. And Zemus says, no, no hesitation, impressive. Steve Rogers chose to take the serum, right? And so it is not just either or. But that's not really what Steve Rogers was choosing. And I don't think we should lose sight of that. He went to the enlistment center time after time after time. Because as he tells Erskine, what was the thing he really wanted?

He doesn't like bullies, right? He has that line about how he doesn't want to kill people. He just doesn't like bullies. He wants to stop bullies. He wanted to protect people. He wanted to help. help people. And even though I found myself slightly troubled by how often the episode went out of its way to show us that Sam thought Carly had a point given the increasingly long list of

atrocities that Carly has committed, bombing the GRC Center with people inside. We hear that there's a list of demands. If not, if they're not met, more bombings will come. Says stated intention killed Captain America. Threatened Sarah has that really horrifying exchange with Sam. at the end where she says that she doesn't want to kill him, not because she doesn't want to kill him, but because his death wouldn't mean anything because he's not the one carrying the symbol right now, which was chilling.

Steve chose to find a way to help other people. It was the only way to get into the war, exactly. And he also did that. He took the sin with Erskine's blessing. That's the difference. It was like he needed that external validation. That's right. And he was comparing the only thing he had as a point of reference,

The only thing anybody had at that time as a point of reference was the Red Skull, right? This horror, this horror story and this cautionary tale. John Walker, when he's making the choice, just like anybody in the modern-day MCU timeline, they have Steve Rogers there. And we even hear many characters articulate, you know, Zemo says there's only one Steve Rogers. We hear Hoskins say to John Walker. You've got Carly over here, right? You've got Steve over here.

Like, again, there are these polls. But we know that the serum amplifies who these characters are. And so the fact that Sam would not take it, that he would not seek it, is, again, part of the thing that makes him the one who's actually worthy of the mantle. And the thing I found myself thinking about a lot in this episode was, okay, that great moment in endgame. Oh my God, when he gives him the shield? And he's like, it's yours. That's one of the two things I was just going to mention. Yes.

So what is he, we've talked a lot this season about Sam saying that it feels like someone else's. But what's the line that follows that immediately after that? When Sam says he will do his best, and Steve says, that's why it's exactly. Because he'll do his best. That's what it is. And that's what being cap is. It's about like, it's overcoming your disappointment yourself. And it's the better angels of your own nature, actually.

It's very kind of US constitution founding fathers type energy. It's very much better angels of our nature in the best possible way. Like, it's like same with Tom Hanks and Private Ryan. Like he's always trying to make better decisions. He's utterly traumatized. being a group of traumatized soldiers and he's got to be strong for them. And that is, that self-doubt at the heart of it, that's the beauty. That's, you know, it's, it's grace actually. It's a word that's not used often enough, it's grace. And that is what Sam has. And I get frustrated for him because

I see people going, oh, like, this isn't, you can't carry the show. I said, well, yeah, Zemo gets cool stuff and Zemo gets cool sound bites, but Sam has got, he's got more range. He's got more range than he's been given credit, maybe slightly by the script. In my opinion, I just feel there's more to than we're being fully shown, but I'm still really enjoying it for that reason. I think we can still get it in the final two hours. And the other thing from Endgame that I found myself thinking about a lot in this episode, actually,

when thinking about the choice to take the serum, what that reveals about a person, what really makes somebody a worthy hero. I found myself thinking about that incredible overall sequence where Steve and Tony go back to Camp Lehigh to get not only the test track, but the rest of the PIM particle. Amazing sequence with Tony and Howard, of course.

Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. And when Steve stumbles into Peggy's office, what does he see on her desk? It's a picture of him, but which picture? It's a picture of him. I feel like I'm about emotional. It's honestly so touching. It's the picture of him before the serum, before the serum, when he was that little guy

who had not gotten the chance, who nobody else believed in, and nobody else. wanted to give the opportunity or the credit to say, it doesn't matter how big your muscles are or how good you look after you come out of that Viterate cocoon. Though, Chris Evans-Ler. Her hand, you know, the most wholesome scene of thirst in the time she's when she goes like this and touches his pecks, yeah. Oh, my God. Haley, outwell, oh my goodness. Relatable. Oh, my goodness. Like her whole arc and when she first begins to fourth him when he gets the flag, isn't it? when he gets the flag using his mind

using his ingenuity when he throws himself on the grenade my heart honestly that movie is absolutely brilliant it's underrated actually in the grand suite because so many movies

have come since but the first Captain American movie is mind blowing to me because it's like he's so earnest he's so brave and you see Chris Evans and that you're like

you know it's not often you see a film star who are never going to meet and you think I would actually like to be that person's friend he genuinely seems like a lovely human being.

Yes. When he leaked his news by accent, I'm like, his reaction to it was like, that's how Cap would react. If Cap had leaked his own news. Oh, my God. Completely agree. What a moment that was. Even his reply, like, since I've got your attention, go and vote.

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Visit weathertech.com today. What I want to see from Marvel in Phase 4, I want to see some slow endgame style movements. My favorite parts of end game with the slow bits. I love M game as a movie. My favorite part will still be the first half hour when everyone's broken. I want to see what the blip is doing to people. I want to see the last days of old cap. Just having conversations with Sam, just like playing card games.

And then like, and Cap having like failing health or failing eyesight. And like Sam getting stuff for him and fix him drinks and just sitting out with blankets and like listen to baseball games. There's like gentle, gentle moments which are like, ribbing, which because then, I want, I want Bucky and Sam to have more, like, put it this way. Look how amazing Sam's jackets are, right? And look how Bucky's dress ends is good, but it's variable. I want them to, like, I want them to bond, I want them to bond over stuff like that. You want them to go shopping. But they have to go shopping with Zemo because Zimo's the one

with the just absolutely iconic outerwear. The danger, the one thing with Zemo is. The one danger with Zemo is so, yeah, the biggest, well, the biggest danger. He's so, cool. He's so cool that he threatens to steal every single scene. I know. That is actually really true. It is one of our, one of our ringer writers, Miles wrote this piece about a week and a half ago. This is the Baron Zemo show now, which I don't think it's supposed to be, but he is just such a magnetic presence. That actually, that segues nicely into something I wanted to ask you about, which was the villains of the show being ideas. Van and Charles talked about this on. their Midnight Boys Instant Reaction Friday episode

off of the fourth episode of Falcon and the way that the characters, Zemo in his big speech, Sam and Carly in their conversation, discussed the idea of supremacy. And Van said that he thought supremacy, the idea that any person, institution would think that they were better

than anybody else is the real villain of this show and at the heart of the show. And I was curious for your thoughts on that specifically, but more broadly, the way that the show is putting forth these, again, toxic elements of institutions and societal failings as the primary villain of the show. And then, again, as we started to talk about earlier, was Zemo being the mouthpiece for that? What that's supposed to say about how we as viewers are supposed to respond to that? You know, he says about Carly, you're seeing something in her that isn't there. You're clouded by it. She's a supremacist.

The very concept of a super soldier will always trouble people. It's that warped aspiration that led to Nazis to Ultron. Zemo's a supremacist. Zmo's a supremacist. This is the thing, right? Come on. Zemo, Zemo, he's a toxic. Zemo is just that, he's a, he's a dime a dozen.

Look, is that same old, oh, look what you made me do. He's a proud boy. He's basically a proud boy. Oh, no, the West is in decline. Look what you made me do. No, we didn't make you kill the King of Wakanda. You did that. on your own company time.

Yes. And Sam says to him, isn't that how God's talk elsewhere in the episode when he says, you know, we cannot allow that she, meaning Carly and her acolytes, become yet another faction of gods amongst real people. But Zemo himself consistently accessed judge jury and execution. That line was so brilliant. That line was so brilliant. Do you know why?

Because Zemo is basically a kind of Anton Chiguer. Call it, Frendo. And he goes, oh, I don't call it. They call it. no, it's you, it's always you. It's always Zemo. And the funny thing was that line, that line about that's how God's talk was so brilliant. And it took him, Zemo so much by surprise, he almost like Daniel Bruel. He almost came out of character. It's such a brilliant line because he spent the last few episodes preaching uninterrupted and someone goes like,

calls him on his own, on his BS. It's brilliant. I totally agree. I totally agree. And I think that it's actually at the heart of, they're walking a delicate, a delicate tight herb with Zimo because people love watching him, but we can never forget the atrocities that he is unleashed into the world and the ones that he openly and consistently says he intends to continue. I think that the begrudging but very clearly burgeoning respect and that he feels for Sam Bucky is the thing that they have to try to use to pull him back. Because even like you, the point you just made, I completely agree with, and there were other smaller, subtler versions of that,

like even something like Sam observing that Zamo does the tilted head thing. Amazing. And then you have that quick moment where you see on Zemo's face. He's like, wait, shit, I do do that. And he sees that I do that. Like, he really sees me clearly. That's pretty amazing. Yeah, when he's like, you had a soup there.

You didn't have a problem using the winter soldier. Yeah, he's like, you didn't have a problem. using me as what, you know, to kill people. That's interesting. So Zemo's basically like, I think I don't mind people falling for him because people fall for demagogues all the time. Like that's just part of human nature. Like I think it's good to present him as he is. Here's a galaxy brain take, actually. The biggest villain in all of this is actually Red Wing. Red Wing is the greatest villain because Red Wing is foreshadowing the future of war. That's what's so scary about. Red Wing go and sort out. Red Wing basically has got like four

miniature, like mini nukes and wipes out all these helicopters. I'm like, that's terrifying because that's the future of warfare. It's not going to be a bunch of people dressed in like flying suits. It's going to be fleets of red wings. And the super serum is basically like red wing in liquid form. Oh, did you destroy the super we can only create 20 super soldiers? Red wings just sitting there. They can churn those out of factories all over wherever. And that's the new warfare. I'm just going galaxy brain. That's all. But I'm only half joking. I'm only half joking. I think you're actually completely right because two things. One, it played for a laugh at the time, but Sam's little bit about the big three, the

MCU consistently, even if it's less, in its less successful iterations, but certainly in the most effective and best ones, whether it's Winter Soldier, Civil War, you mentioned Ragnarok, Black Panther, obviously in game in Infinity War. But even in its less successful movies, like Iron Man 3, not the best M-C-M-C-Movie, obviously, but has one of the most crucial ideas, you know, Tony saying, we create our own demons. Again, another elemental idea at the heart of fantasy stories in these movies. So Sam's listing off the villains that they face, but what's the real villain always? It's hubris, right?

And it's the pursuit of endless power and greed and ambition. And the human beings, the Thunderbolt Rosses of the world, whoever the power broker ends up being, they may think that they are the ones, just as Carly does, just as Zemo does, who are the only ones who can see things clearly. They're the only ones who can identify the path forward. But all of these people make the same mistake, which is thinking that they're not going to make the same mistake. Yes, exactly. I can't help but think when you're making that Red Wing point of the fact that,

far from home, Spider-Man, Far from Home, the final film in phase three, in the final film of the Infinity saga is actually set after the Falcon and the Winter Soldier in the timeline. We hear in the absolutely incredible Midtown Tech student news broadcast shouts to Betty and Jason

and their memoriam video. I just love that sequence so much when they have their Whitney Houston's I will always love you comes in and they have like Getty image wordmarked photos of candles. It's so funny. But

They say in that newscast that it's eight months after the blip. We know the Falcon is set loosely six months after the blib. Wanda was set three weeks after the blip. Why do I raise this? Because what's the real villain of that Spider-Man movie? Of course, it's mysterious, but really it's the drones. And this is why I'm glad that you, because I'm not, I wasn't joking when I said Red Wing, because the iterations of tech and the way that warfare is fought.

Actually, look at like, what's the X-Men? days of future past, the sentinels. That's the future. Like, the direct descendants of Red Wing will be the sentinels. This makes me think of Sword and Hayward and Wanda Vision. And what is Red Wing? Red Wing is basically deferred authority. It's, what's the word?

It's outsourcing. That's the enemy. The enemy, and it's not sexy, but the biggest enemy is not even Nisie Hubris. It's outsourcing. And it's unsexy, but look at certain online delivery companies. One of the great evils of our time, it's outsourcing. And it's like, it's so benign. And it's not blood and thunder and flags.

And while blood and thunder and flags are going, while we're fighting right now and discussing populism right now, automation is going on its merry way and it's creating problems for us. In the course of this podcast, automation has probably created more problems for us than populism has. Algorithms have done more damage in the course of this podcast than someone sitting on a computer ranting about the welfare state and immigrants. Algorithms have done more damage. I put money on it. Marvel is very good at putting the real villains in the background. It does it with Ultron the whole time. Ultron is a classic example of like the amounts of the Ultron basically tucks away.

That movie, you know, rewatch it. It doesn't age well and it also does. It's a Schroding as Ultron. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Completely agree. The piece in our time, I mean, Ultron, much like the drones that Quentin Beck ends up deploying

through Edith, Tony's creations. Amazing. I love Tony, to be clear, but one of the funniest moments in the entire MCU. So when he says, he's listing all of these horrors, yeah, that's a good oldron.

My fault. He just kind of quickly says it. We made a murder bot. See how he doesn't like it. See how Bucky doesn't like Red Wing. Is it Bucky doesn't like it? Because Bucky is like, Bucky knows the danger of being controlled

from a central source. Bucky knows it. Bucky is like he's part robot. Like Bucky is... This is, I think it's a great, a great final note and point to wrap up on because whether it's bucky and his history, Sam and his own history, these characters are deeply embedded in the military industrial complex. Yes, yes.

The ones who we will ultimately be rooting for are the ones who pause to think about that and ask what part of that is okay and what part of it isn't. And, you know, that's the last point, I guess I'll make about to bring this back to John Walker and the horrifying final note of the episode and that the comparison not only to Sam in terms of who we view is worthy moving forward, no debate there, but also Steve Rogers and what separates these characters from each other, of course Steve Rogers used the shield as a tool of war. Of course, right? It would not be in good faith to say otherwise. But as we as I always like to talk about, so much of this comes down to motive and intention. What drives a choice, not just the choice itself, but what drives it? Steve loved that shield and viewed that shield as so useful because it is a tool through which he can protect the versatility of protection that it afforded him. John Walker turn the shield into a sword.

We have it in law. As a lawyer, you have equity as a shield or as a sword. Like, you know, Katz America, like, he Rogers, he uses the shield as, as equity he uses a shield and as a shield. And the fact that you have this kind of bellicose warlike John Walker is such an irony that he takes this legacy that Cap created, you know, this amazing legacy. And the first thing he does, the first thing you see him do is taking part in the pageantry the cap hated.

Like that whole parade of onto the stadium, that cap in America he literally brought down three heli carriers because he hated that pageantry, you know? And there he wouldn't.

And the one thing I'll say, the last thing I'll say before he closed, it's slightly a messy point to wrap up on. The real problem begins with the fact that he never respected the authority enough.

He never, for all the talk about I thought in his footstess he didn't because he's in that changing room and they're talking about special forces mission and chilly they were planning,

but actually this job came up and he, He's treating Captain America like just another recon mission. He hasn't really reflected on it. He doesn't done the reading, the work, the homework. He may have, listen, he may have bent pressure a thousand times, but he hasn't sat and talked about the philosophy of being cap. He hasn't thought about the philosophy of being capped.

He's taken this, like just at the job. And I looked at him and thought to myself, you're a freelancer taking a job as a CEO, and that's why you're doomed to fail. You are hopelessly out of your depth. You're like a high school coach being put in charge of Alabama in the college ball, in the college ball finals.

Like, it's never going to work. Roll tied. He says, he says to Hoskins, Bean Cap is the first time. I've had the chance to do something that actually feels right. But every fight Steve Rogers has been in has felt right. Every single fight Steve Rogers has fought has felt right.

And the only difference is now he has the means to fight. He has the means. He never had it before. When you think of one of the most iconic, lasting, lingering, still, all this time later searing moments in Steve's arc, it's when in Captain America Civil War, after Steve lifts the shield above his head

and brings it down upon Tony, but of course does not kill the person beneath him as John Walker does in this episode, Tony tells him that shield doesn't belong to you. And what does Steve Rogers do? Does he say, yes, it doesn't walk away, which is what John Walker would have done? Yeah.

He drops it. Yeah. He drops it and he walks away because as embedded in the history of his own life as that shield was, Tony will use the shield to apologize to Steve. Yeah. It's their olive branch and endgame. He understands and it is a fundamental distinction that the shield is not what makes him the hero.

Love it. This was a blast. So this is so good. This is, ha ha ha. Will you join us again? Will you come back? This absolute joy, of course. You'll be able to keep me out. You have to kick me out with the Zoom. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

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So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms of play. All right, friends, normally, this is where we parse one theory, one theory corner. Maybe something a little bit different today. There are only two episodes left in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, unbelievable. And so we want to spend a bit of time today looking ahead to what amounts to the final act of this five-hour movie.

I'm going to run through a handful of theories that have really. really animated the fandom, sparked a lot of conversation throughout the run. But which theories to focus on how to limit it to just a handful? I am not capable of that. And thus, needed a partner. Needed a partner to pick. So he's back. Ringer podcast lead, fellow MCU enthusiasts,

D.D. St. Matthew, Daniel, here with us to tee up these either oars. Mal, what is happening? I'm excited to be here. First of all, let me just say, I pity the fool who tries to follow up you and Musa having a conversation about the AMCU because you already know what you're doing in this space and then add Musa to it, who's amazing O'Ringo FC, as you mentioned. That's a strong combination. And you had Joanna last week as well. You're like compiling the infinity gauntlet of guests on your show. And, you know, I'm glad to be back. But you know how it is. You know, anytime I get an invitation to the House of Mal, you can count on me. I'm here. My God, I see what you did there.

I see what you did. But I'm glad to be back. You know, first time I was a guest and now I'm like, maybe a game show host, kind of. We'll see. We'll see how this segment turns out. You might never want to do this segment again. You might never invite me back to the House of Mal again. Come on.

No. Let's give it a shot. Absolutely not. It's just us hanging out in our Latvian safe house, drinking cherry blossom tea. Turkish delights. Snack it on Turkish delight. Hey. Can I just say quickly before we even start?

Yes, please. The brilliance of having Zimo be the one who hands out Turkish delight, putting him in the role of the white witch from the lion, the witch in the wardrobe, keeping Edmund in her power spellbound by his favorite treat, all these little ways that were never allowed to totally forget. What role Zimo occupies? Continue. Amazing, amazing.

But yes, we're definitely going to handle Zima. We're going to handle a lot. It's going to be a lot of fun speculation in this segment. And we, you know, calling it somewhat the probability hex segment, right? And going back, leaning back to the Wanda in the House of Mao, it's where we figure out what's more likely, right? Different scenarios. And that's something we saw Wanda. She was unaware of her prowess as a magician as a young kid.

And we're going to have a little fun with that. So a lot of theories are up in the air. We're going to try to figure out what's more likely. Not necessarily what we want to happen, not necessarily what we think is the most fun, which we can still comment on. but what's more likely? So let's jump right to it, all right? I'm going to try to hit this. We have about five.

Let's get to it. Give me all you got. First up, now that we've very likely seen why the shield switches hands, we don't know how exactly, because that's still up for debate, but we've seen why. What is more likely? We either get a fight sequence where Sam and Bucky passed a shield around in battle as a nod to the Civil War battle between Steve,

Bucky, and Tony, amazing fight choreography. Or the trailer shots where both guys, Sam and Bucky, are in shield training, is actually how the Falcon and the Winter Soldier comes to an end. What is more likely between those two scenarios? Oh, boy. Okay. You're going to be mad at me. I can't be mad at you.

I'm a house of mal guest. I can't be mad. I'm going to say, can I say both? Because I do think actually both of these things seem increasingly. likely. I think that we will see Sam and Bucky share the shield in battle as part of their shared journey, shared evolution, possibly even at the start of episode five as they work to, I mean, they're standing right there watching Walker. Presumably they're going to attempt to take the shield from him. And I could see how right away falling into that rhythm with each other would feel really natural and fulfilling. But I am increasingly warming toward, B. I've been waiting all season for these training montage sequences that we've seen in the trailer. Re-watching the trailers this weekend, I noticed that Sam is wearing multiple different outfits. You see him in three or four outfits in these sequences with the Shield down in Louisiana.

So I'm beginning to think that the Shield training is not about preparing for an in-season battle to come, but rather is like a key part of this season's apotheosis, Sam's arc, the culmination of Sam's arc within this season of TV. Though, again, because of the multiple outfits, maybe it's, maybe it's all of the above. Maybe this is part of that culmination and also battle prep. I don't know. Broadly, I just, I really like what Joanna said last week about both the Falcon and the Winter Soldier shedding those monikers at the end, at the end of this season. If you're listening and haven't heard that, go back and check it out. Because I thought that was a really, really excellent observation and insight.

The shield training, the other part of the trailer sequence that's around there when they say, so we're partners, co-workers, not necessarily a team. That feels like the way to put a button on this experience, as opposed to that being a runway to something else. What do you think? You got to choose one. Which are you going with? What's more likely? That's how it ends?

Or I feel like you're leaning B. So I do, but I think it, I consider it almost a guarantee that we'll see them share the shield in battle. That just feels like a lock because it would be the continuation of this tradition inside of the Captain American franchise and inside of the MCU. So I think that's a lock. So if you make me pick, I have to pick A, but I am really increasingly warming toward B. And so I'm going to say both, damn it. Right enough. Again, House of Mal, you make the rules here.

All right. So quickly on this, I think A, using the shield in battle, we'll continue the nods, right? The great nods to cap. I have a plan jumping out of a plane. The shield stump, which, you know, Darryo Malagie did this, you know, this past episode. Absolutely unbelievable on it. I yelled watching that.

And I watch it up right to the arm. I'm like the midnight boys. I watch it in midnight. So I yelled when that happened and probably woke up a few of my neighbors. So exciting. But I would say this, though. Oringa.com, great website. We had an entrance survey going into the season.

And in that, I noted that I feel this series is going to end with, one, potential for future seasons, but future seasons that has a new team captain America roster. So I do feel it makes sense, given that we've seen four episodes already, and given the tone of what we've seen in the trailers, just feels like much more relaxed and not like, hey, we have to fight a battle in five hours. It would make sense. And here's one thing. We've criticized this show as much as we can as MCU super fans.

for not starting the season with both guys together. But it would bring a full circle if we didn't start them together, but we end the series with them actually becoming together and acknowledge the fact that they're quote-unquote teammates, partners, or whatever it is they come up with as, you know, moving forward. So I'm into scenario two. I'm into option two. Number two, coming off Bucky's Wakanda flashback,

amazing, such great acting, such a great moment between those two. and I'm hoping they still have a relationship beyond, you know, what happened we saw in episode four after the fight. But coming off that flashback in episode four, what's more likely? The show's next flashback will future Isaiah Bradley's time as Captain America, or we finally get to see Sam doing his military power rescue days alongside his then wingman and, as we know, fallen soldier, Riley.

This is a great what's more likely. I definitely agree with the impetus behind this question, which is that in addition to that opening sequence, that six years ago and Wakanda being an incredible scene in its own, right? It did feel like a promise of more flashbacks to come. I'm going with A. I'm going with A. I want this. I hope we get this.

And increasingly, I think we will. I actually think that if it's not an Isaiah Bradley, flashback, the next most likely flashback candidate to me actually feels like Zemo. Like maybe a sequence with his family, you know, if you think back to his arc and Captain America Civil War and the role that the voicemail played that he listened to time and time again, the voicemail from his wife, I could see us maybe when he's at the memorial that we know he's going to visit based on the trailer, or we assume he's going to visit based on the trailer. Maybe we get a flashback to his time with his family. You know, he mentioned his son again in this episode when talking about the Turkish delight,

how it was a son's favorite. I could also see a Sharon, a Sharon flashback. If she does wind up being powerbroker, or really whatever, if she's on a secret mission, as an operative, presumably we got to fill in that time.

Somehow, I guess she could just give us some classic exposition, but I could see a flashback, too. So my pick is a Isaiah, but I'm open. Yeah, I'm ready for more. How about you? I'm with you, Mel, on this one.

One, as many flashbacks as possible, This is why we have Disney Plus shows, but I do think we're going to see Isaiah Bradley's cap, whether it's the Korean War bar fight with Bucky. That would be great. I just think ultimately the chance to give Isaiah his spotlight is too good of an opportunity to pass up. Like that is, you know, Malcolm Smelman,

the show run has talked to multiple times about how this show carries on the legacy of Black Panther and representation. So the fact that we're going to be able to see this legacy, Captain America figure on screen and live action, I think he's, you know, the team behind the show, are really going to want to make that happen. We've also heard that, you know, this episode has emotional beats and, you know, grab your tissues, be ready to share a couple of tears.

Episode five, yeah. And something in regards, the only thing right now that I can see that could be a tear jerker is Isaiah Bradley's really, really sad and fortunate story. So I'm expecting that. However, though, it does need to be some fleshing out of Sam's backstory. And I love that we got to mention about his time as a social worker for back. for back to, you know, Captain America when a soldier. There's the

conversations with his family, his dad being a giant. We got that line dropped in episode one. So I am hoping there's in some way, shape, or form or fleshing out of Sam's character to be done. But I do agree with you on this one. It's more than likely an Isaiah Bradley flashback up next. All right.

Question number three. Let's have it. One of the big questions so far this season has been to take or not to take the serum. We know where John Walker ended up on that list. We know where Sam ends up on that, or he quickly without hesitation says no. And now that Zima has crushed seemingly all the remaining vows of Serm, what is more likely? John Walker is the final new super soldier introduced in the MCU, or Sam, who we all assume

is finally going to graduate from psychic to leading hero in the conclusion of the series and thereafter, he is going to receive an armor upgrade of some kind, courtesy of either Stark industries or Wakanda. What's more likely? I throw a lot at you. I know. Yeah, this is, to me, this is the easiest one so far. I think it's clearly B is more likely because I don't, at the moment at least, I don't consider A possible. Like the idea that John Walker could be the last new super soldier in the MCU doesn't seem anywhere inside of our probability hacks to me. You know, I think that as Joanna noted last week, We know that Nagel made the powerbroker's serum from Isaiah's blood once.

That means that somebody, whether it's the power broker or somebody else, could seek to do so again. Somebody could also seek to use another source of blood, the Flag Smashers' blood, for example, or Bucky's blood. There are numerous different sources from which somebody else could seek to replicate the serum again. And we should also not forget that just inside of the MCU to date, we have other or origins of serum replication attempts. You know, if we think about the Incredible Hulk, you know, Banner, Thunderbolt Ross, that whole serum plot. Shouts to Blonsky now and always.

There are plenty of other permutations in the wider Marvel canon, of course, including Weapon Plus, which I think, you know, Weapon Plus has been very central to Marvel fan theorizing in recent weeks in terms of how the X-Men and mutants could perhaps enter the fray here. So I think it's not going to end with John. there are numerous pathways back to the serum, probably all of them damned. It can't be the end for Super Soldiers

or for the serum in the MCU. It's just too central to Marvel Canon. What about you? Completely agree. Yes, it's the comics have taught us like that's just, you know, that's just continuous in perpetuity as far as the serum is concerned.

However, though, the MCU is different from the comics. So I do think the MCU does need to be smart about how they balance the usage of certain plot devices, It's just like the serum. We've talked about the blip and the effects that has had. We've seen that in all the post-end game Marvel projects from far from home to Wanda Vision. And now I think they do need to be smart about not overusing it.

Another element and another example like that would be the scrolls as well. You don't want to turn it to submission impossible. Right? It's like, oh, big reveal. Here we go. John Walker is a scroll. As soon as you introduce that possibility, it's kind of ever-present as a looming. you.

Eventually. Eventually. Like, when will this come back into the story? 100%. So, again, I don't think it's the end. John Walker is not the last,

but I'm hoping it's being used, it's being thought of in a much more smarter way. Use it judiciously. Exactly. I would say with Sam. Yeah, what do you expect from the new fit?

Let's hear it. Going to get the shield, right? Obviously, as we know. And while you might not need like a hundred point restoration like Tony did for Peter, right? He definitely needs

an upgrade. He definitely needs an upgrade. Gotta give the teenager instant kill if you can, folks. Got to. Got to. But here's a thought. Maybe it's not Tony. Maybe Sam helps the Dora Melaget in their hunt and pursuit of Zemo.

And as a result, just like Bucky, he gets a new fibranium-infused, shir-me-tech-laden outfit. So I'm excited. I definitely do think he needs an upgrade as he continues his journey as a leading man. It would be amazing if the, the Falcon wingsuit.

We made of vibranium moving forward. That would be incredible. Oh my gosh. Yeah, he's a leading man. He's going to need more gear to, you know, or we'll be a leading man, so he's going to need more gear. But all right, let's get to two more. Okay.

Much like Falcon and a winter soldier. One division, planted seeds for the Young Avengers project, which we all assume is going to eventually come from Marvel. But Wonder Vision was also more direct than setting up plot lines and story beats for Dr. Strange and multiverse. of Madness, Captain Marvel 2, and maybe potentially even secret invasion. So what's more likely? Option A, War Machine makes a return to Falcon and Winner Soldier.

Here was in episode one very briefly, and sets up the already announced Armour Wars or the Ironheart series. Or option B, Zemo, who's now motivated by the Dora Melaide, hunting him down because the Dora Melalege, wherever they show up, they have Dura Sexton, as they reminded us in episode four. So Zima, with his new found motivation, takes the first steps and building his very own team, and thus sets up a Thundables project. I have so many Zemo thoughts. We need to just launch a Zemo feed.

I just could talk about this guy all day long. I think Rhodes coming back into the show certainly is plausible. Feels very possible. Yeah, definitely could see that. Those missing spaces and the credits feels like there's a Don Cheadle. You love the missing credit spaces. That's been one of your favorite things to track this season. But I think because to the spirit of your question here, you know, we know we're getting

armor wars, right? So of course there will be a more formal in-universe on-ramp to that story at some point. But, you know, Rhodes is very established. We know that that project is coming. I think if they're going to set up Thunderbolts and set up a Zemo spin-off of some sort, that has to happen at the end of this show, right? It just kind of has to. I mean, I guess it doesn't have to.

The MCU can do basically anything at this point. But that would seem like something that they would want to formally incorporate into the conclusion of this six-episode experience. So I think one of the things that that makes me think of, though, is, again, something we talked about last week with Joanna, how the show is going to reconcile Zimo's anti-hero stance with forming a super team of his own.

Now, of course, Thunderbolt, it's Masters of Evil. This is Zemo Comics canon. This is an established part of his character's history. But inside of the MCU, his philosophy and principles are so oriented around the idea

that the serum can't exist. The super soldiers can't exist. I don't know. You wanted to tear down the Avengers. They weren't all super soldiers. It depends on how literal you're being. He wants to rid the world of, these forces. So him then

becoming a part of one, I think they have some work to do. And that's why actually I think this is more likely, because they have to do that work if that's what's going to happen. Thinking about this, though, and thinking about Zemo's role in this episode, some of the things he said, I want to hit you with two theories. Before you do that, just do

want to say, I think where that work comes into play, potentially could be the Dora Milagie hunting him down. Now he needs backup. He needs a squad. because the Dormelagie don't play. And maybe that's how that gets tied into his need for a team. I can definitely see that, though. That would still feel like such a almost fundamental shift in his principles.

I basically, I just hope that that becomes not subtext, but actual concrete text. And that they assess and parse how he is evolving his thought process. But I've started to think about how that could maybe happen. So here are a couple theories. is one, Bucky finds him right before the Wakandans find him. Finds him at the Sokovia Memorial. That line in episode three, when Zimo asked Sam and Bucky, if any of them had visited the memorial,

Bucky knows, Sam knows, Zimo is going to go there now that he's escaped, now that he's as Sam put it, pulled in El Chapo. Is it possible that Bucky could find Zimo and let him go because let's not forget, Zimo is on Bucky's list of amends. I keep thinking about that. Why is Zemo on that list? Why did we see that? How is that going to bear fruit?

Now, to be clear, how Bucky would walk that back and justify that with I-O with the Dora-Malajé? I have no idea. I do not think that he could, frankly. But if there is a way, perhaps doing so will allow all of these questions that we have to align and boil to the four in some capacity. Like, it felt, it felt notable to me in episode four that Bucky was so sure that he had not been tracked back to the apartment, back to the flat, when we know that the Wacondans found

them in Latvia and were there waiting for them. The Komoyo beats were already on the ground. Okay, so second theory. This is the one I'm excited about. You ready for this one? Let's do it. Zimo extracts the serum from Bucky. instead of killing him.

Hear me out. Okay. About this last night, I was slacking you guys. So slacking you and Steve and then I was like, no, I'm dropping it on the pod. Okay. Zemo has stated, he has no intention to leave his work unfinished,

as we've discussed. Which means, definitionally, that he cannot leave Bucky as the winter soldier. Again, a moment like hearing him say in this episode that Turkish Delight was his son's favorite, reminds us, reinforces us of what his sense. central driving purpose is and has been since Zemo entered the story. But we also see clearly that this begrudging respect has blossomed between these characters. Something like Zemo saying in this

episode, do we really have to litigate what may or may not have happened? Just felt, you know, it plays for a laugh, but it felt so deliberate and so intentional in terms of, again, the line that the MCU is walking between moving forward with Zemo as I think an increasingly central figure and also having to account for the horrible things that he has done and how we can invest in a character who is responsible for so many of those things. And maybe it's also something that Bucky would want. You know, like Zemo's saying to him in episode three in the moment when Bucky approached him in the prison, something is still in there. Maybe that was quite literal, you know, about the words don't hold sway over Bucky anymore, but maybe the fact that the serum is still in there

is something that Zemo is thinking about. And of course, Sam acknowledged it in this episode when he said, well, what about Bucky when he was talking to Zemo about super soldiers and the serum? And that was intention left lingering, right? It's like a lingering question in the air. Absolutely. And I think that then Bucky, I think this would only work if it was something Bucky accepted or even wanted, free of the control of Hydro's brainwashing, the winter soldier activation

words, rid of the serum. working as we've seen to process his trauma to make his amends, then begins his life as the white wolf. Because we heard the name again in this episode, again and again it has come up. And as Joanna said last week, maybe that is his future. And it is comics canon that the serum can be extracted.

That actually is at the heart of the origin of the Captain America Sam Wilson comics arc, Steve has the serum extracted, and that's when Sam assumes the mantle. What do you think? Full on the galaxy brain, trying to wrap my mind around it. Very much so like what the audience is doing right now.

Has anyone else said this? I honestly have no idea, but I'm excited about this. This is absolutely original. You should hit up Kevin Fagie, get in that writer's room. Let's see where we can work out. I will say this.

Kevin, call me. Call me anytime. Wrap my mind around that. It's Zemo Hive was a couple of weeks ago. Then Zemo cut was last week. With this character, the MCU has a new leash on storytelling life. And you can quabble and have questions with have they sort of diminished or just contradicted the character of Zemo from what we saw in Civil War. And there might be some, you know, there might be some points to make in that argument.

But he's an exciting character. He's a fan favorite. So I do think he lives on and potentially becomes a lifelong. adversary for the Wakandas, just like a guy Ulysses' clow was and trying to hunt him down. So I'm going to go with B for the fourth option, but I do want to mention, I do take note of when casting decisions happen and how soon. We know Ironheart has already been cast, Dominic Thorne, she had a great role in Judas and the Black Messiah.

That came surprisingly early. Maybe there's a reason for that. So maybe, you know, option A is still an option or still a possibility, but I'm going to go with B as what's most what is most likely here with Zemo, you know, potentially going off and starting his own thunderbolts. The fifth and final, what's more likely, Mal? And I hope you've had a good time with these will be this. All right, let's get to it. So the Midnight Boys, as Van so often does in an amazing fashion, way better than mine. I hope Steve can add the effects to mine. The Midnight Boys revealed their power broker, power ranking.

on their episode four for Falcon and Winter Soldier. Both guys had some wild guesses on their list. Extremely wild. Astounding stuff. Insane. From my ringer-verse colleagues. I know, right? The Midnight Boys, crazy.

Vans list includes, as A. Bradley, while Charles speculates an entirely new villain from the comics, Mr. Hyde. So what's more likely? The Midnight Boys, as crazy as they can be, or onto something, or the power broker is our guy, Justin Hammer, who then challenges Zemo to the first ever MCU villain dance off. And I got to let people know, Ronan the accuser did not make the cut because he's not into dancing.

Tough beat here. Tough beat here for Ronan, as usual. Just a series of tough beats for Ronan. This is my first. This is my first neither reply. With apologies, my formal, my formal answer is neither. I, you know, I will say one of Vans' nominations was... But one has to be more likely, right?

I'm not saying it's going to happen. More likely that the Midnight Boys are onto something than Justin Hammer is the power broker and winds up and a dance off. So in that case, A, is more likely. Very enough. I love it. I do think that, you know, Ross was on Vans list. Charles seemed deeply perplexed by that.

Ross is still on my short list as well. I think that, again, he's actually connected to the serum already in the canon, and we know he's always up to shady shit. So I still could see that. I think that for me personally, I'm still out as Zemo. Zemo was discussed on their list as well. Still out. I still personally think it's looking most likely that it's Sharon.

I mean, in this episode, we got the scene where she was surrounded by the armed henchmen in the episode, has actually. to satellites. Could have access to satellites if she's on a mission for a government agency of some sort. That one shot, though, when she's controlling the tablet, looking at the satellite imagery to feed the Intel to Sam. And there's a large beam of blue light behind her that's the exact hue of the super soldier's stereo. It's like, uh. And even just her saying, you know, hey, Sam, you got to play this out. you know, if Carly Dispiers, we're not going to find that serum until it's too late. So just stark contrast to before everything unfolded with Zemo killing Nagel and she was like, stay out of this.

And now that he's gone and they need to find a serum, which of course has been Zemo crushing the vials other than the one that John took, that just all seemed so, so intentional, you know, saying the power broker went ape shit when he heard about Nagel. He wants the serum back. He killed the golden goose. I actually do not think it's Sharon because it's going to take a lot of storywriting and storytelling to convince me that she has helped Sam multiple times here, finding Dr. Nagel also interrupting Sam and Carly's meeting to give the location of John Walker. I think, yeah, she might be playing 4D chess here, but I just find it really, really difficult to justify those actions if she is a parkwork. I do think she's definitely working with or for someone that's powerful and involved, but I don't think that she's actually the power broker. However, though, going back to this, what's the more likely scenario?

I do agree with you. It's probably more the Midnight Boys because these two scenarios are too wild. We've got to show some love to our guy Justin Hamper, mainly because, well, I have to because that's the reason I brought him up. I think his scene where he's introducing his large package of weaponry in Iron Man 2, the ex-wife speech is perhaps one of the best and funniest monologues in the entire MCU. And I cannot wait and I hope Justin Hammer returns to the MCU at a future date. But I do agree, the Midnight Boys are probably closer.

The Midnight Boys are probably closer. Justin Hammer is someone I also would like to welcome back into the MCU. but I don't think Justin Hammer makes sense as the power broker. And I think that's whether it's Sharon or not. It's why I don't think it can be, I mean, again, who knows? But like someone like hide, I just don't see it because I think this show has largely been about the interplay between perception and reality and how what's visible on the surface does not always reflect the truth.

So I think that narratively that points towards. the power broker being someone we know not only from reading comics or from prior MCU installments, but know inside of this story or at least inside of these characters' arcs. And these guys don't have a connection to Justin Hammer or hide inside of the MCU. So we'll see, though. Bring back Ronan any time, though. Bring them back from the dead. Have some synergy with our guys or with the Midnight Boys every Friday.

if you're not checking that out. Can I ask you, though, talking about the power worker possibilities, the flashback possibilities, what do you think of the murmurs the last few days about this mystery cameo coming in episode five? We've all been down this road before during Wanda Vision. So I'm not going to go into the full. Is Mephisto coming? Is St. Richard's coming territory?

No, again, I still have just, every time I see it, is Mephisto the Power. I just, I cackle. I love it so much. There's a slash film article about this over the weekend, and here's the quote. And it's referencing Malcolm Spellman interviews and things that Spalman has said about this cameo coming in episode five. Quote, slash film can confirm that a surprise character is not one that we've seen in the MCU before and not one who was primed to appear in an upcoming film. However, we have learned it is an exciting Marvel Comics character who is played by a well-known performer. Interesting.

Interesting. That is actually really hard to come up with guesses for based on that set of data points. That makes me think, and again, I have absolutely no idea, but that makes me think maybe the cameo comes in a flashback.

Because it feels like contained, right? Someone from the comics, but not somebody who we've seen in the MCU before who's going to be a part of it. So maybe, maybe to get back to your, flashback question, maybe this cameo will come in an Isaiah flashback of some sort. Could this be perhaps faith, Isaiah's wife? Could it be Josiah X, Isaiah's son, Eli's uncle? Maybe. I don't know. Do you have any guesses? I mean, I think the main theory is for any time you see cameo for the show is

old man cap, but that obviously wouldn't fit with not somebody from the MCU unless that's just misdirection. Correct. It could be misdirection. But I think with all the quote unquote facts that we have right now, which, you know, who knows to who can confirm, you know, verify all those, I think you're on to something. I think that it's definitely going to be something that's more in the bubble and that just connects me mentally to Isaiah Bradley. His story, maybe it's faith, maybe it's another character from the flashback. So we'll say, I'll leave you with this one bonus. And this, we've obviously done future what's more likely. This is more of a retroactive version of this. Love this show. It's been fun. It's been exciting to experience the

you in this way. However, though, if I could go back and switch out a couple of things, just one thing for me would be the opening flight sequence of Falcon, which lasts almost 10 minutes. I would shorten that to about five minutes, four minutes, and quite frankly, use the rest of that budget, that VFX budget, and improve all the Bucky running scenes that we've seen so far in this show. Because if you go back to, you know, win a soldier, it's a civil war, it's an Infinity War. That has always been done amazingly well whenever the super soldiers are running in full sprints.

And there's reasons for that. They use treadmills while taping. There was a lot of reasons why they bring this up to life. For whatever reason, and it could be a pandemic. It might not be a budget restriction here. The running things we've seen in episode two doing the semi-truck sequence. And also in this version, when they're chasing down John Walker at the end of episode four, Bucky looks like a kid who's just learning how to run and is wobbling, but also going super

fast. It's jarring. It takes me out of the experience every time. And that would be one thing our retroactively effects if I could. I did love the stairwell jump, though, the upward stairwell jump with Bucky in pursuit of Carly. That was great. Anytime Bucky's in a stairwell, we get something wonderful. Love the stairwell sequence in Civil War. So good. Jumping off buildings and everything. It's always exciting. Oh, boy. TD, this was a blast. I look forward to us realizing over the next two episodes

that we were wrong about literally all of these things. Part of the fun. Part of the journey is the end, as Tony says. And part of the journey is being wrong about a lot of things along the way. Exactly. At least we're wrong together. Well, speculation. So good times.

All right, folks. It is now time for the R.U. Tony's stink mail delivery of the week with the Lord of the memes. Jomey Adon. Jomey, welcome. As always, happy to be here. First question is for me, Mal. How are you doing? Is this about Sebastian Stan's Instagram?

It might be. Yeah. So for a little backstory, we just, producer Steve and I had to have Mal see that Instagram post. We didn't tell it what was about. And she's just now. They just said, look at Sebastian Stan's Instagram.

And then I said, how am I supposed to do the rest of the podcast now? I don't understand. How am I supposed to focus? I believe in you, Mal. I believe we're going to get through this. We're going to crush this. All right.

Our first question from Twitter, Sergei Wergi. Fitting. How much did Mal appreciate the quick, long-haired Bucky flashback? We're just all about Bucky today. Let's go. Let's go.

You know, I loved it. I have to say, I loved it. I love all Bucky moments. So love all Bucky hair. I have to say I'm team short hair personally for Bucky. I enjoy that. But what I really loved in the flashback, of course. You know, in addition, obviously, to the emotional resonance and the poignancy and power

of the moment, the real fear when he said it's not going to work, the real joy and relief, the actual tears when he realized that it had all of that, of course. But the beard. What a beard. Sebastian's dad can grow a beard, man. Props to him. He's got a great facial hair, the hair on top. It's a good-looking man.

He's a great-looking man. Strongly agree. Yes. Question two. Question two. Facebook from Doug Orleans. Would you take the serum if offered? No, I would not.

I would not take the serum if offered. That's what I'm supposed to say. But it's also what I feel. Steve asked me, as we were putting together, the outline, if I did take the serum, which traits would it amplify? I feel like that's really a question other people have to answer about you.

You can't really answer it about yourself, you know? But it's, you know, I'd like to think that it would be nurturing and empathetic traits. You know, my love of a good story, my fondness for animals, I think it's probably more likely that the serum would amplify

the length of our ringerverse outlines. That seems probable to me. Would you take the serum, Jomey? Oh, no, Natasha said it best. That's not a question I need answered. I don't need the responsibility. Can't do it. I love it.

Wow, I love that Ultron scene. Great call back to that. It's the best scene of probably like the Avengers just hanging out and being pals. It's great. Wonderful stuff. All right. From Corey Lucey on Twitter,

do you think the rest of the Disney Plus shows will continue to have this feeling of being a five, six-hour movie cut up into parts? Or do you think other shows will feel more like typical week-to-week television? shows. I think that each show will probably feel different in terms of vibe, genre, and the ambition, intent. I think that that, as we've discussed before, that variance is really key to the MCU experience. You know, I've shared this foggy quote before, including in our

Winter Soldier pot during the Bingeo and Marvel run, but in this interview with Variety's Jerry Rice in 2013, and he was talking about the superhero movie boom. And he said, if it is a fad, it's one that lasts 30 to 40 years as the Westerns did, because each one is so different. There's an opportunity to graft almost sub-genres onto them. Our first Captain American film was a World War II picture, and the next is a political thriller. They all have their own textures of Bettinas, and that's what is exciting about it. I think that that has something that has clearly been a driving force and North Star of

how the MCU is conceived and crafted, I think it will continue to be so. So whether things feel more like traditional TV shows or movies that happen to be parceled out on TV, I still think each of them will feel, specifically its own. I think it depends on the property.

You know, I feel like for Falcono and the Soldier, you know, these are people coming from films. So I want to bring that same energy as movies do, whereas like going in like Wanda Vision or like don't even look at the future, Miss Marvel, you know, they're probably more geared to like, week by week, like, television aspects of how the show's being run. Yeah, and then that, that, like, action, buddy adventure quality to this story, too,

lends itself more to cinematic expression, whereas a show that's a little more intimate and quiet, though obviously this show gives us those moments as well. Yeah, no, and either way, they're enjoyable. You know, we're having a blast, so it works out so fun. We're having a great time. The MSU! Love it! All right, our next question is from P. McGovern 33 on IG.

Would you trade Lamar for another film that was amazing for fandom as endgame? Oh, my God. Okay, so for anyone who's not aware, this is a question about Baltimore Ravens quarterback, Lamar Jackson. And my answer is absolutely not. Now, I love all of you. And I love the shared experience that we as MCU fans have enjoyed together. And I'm very grateful for Endgame. but in the interest of Gunder,

as much as I want all of us to enjoy Marvel movies and shows and comics for years and years to come and as much as I cannot wait for the next endgame-like experience that we get to share together, every time I watch Lamar Jackson play football and do something amazing, it's like the portals open inside of my heart, Jomey. That's sweet. I can't give it up.

I just can't. I think the equivalent for me would be like LeBron on the Lakers. You know, would I trade LeBron for another film as amazing as end game? Not only would I not do that, I would trade end game for another championship right now.

Right? As easy as it is, I'd make the call. All right. Our last question from Sean Millen on Facebook. Is Mallory Watching Invincible, will love at least a sidebar discussion from her on it. Glad we got this question. No spoilers here.

Fear not. We'll keep it very general. The answer is I am watching Invincible. I am also reading the Invincible comics for the first time. And I am fucking loving both. Yes. I am loving the show, loving the comics, and I'm very much looking forward to discussing both. You're on the Ring or Verse soon.

I was on a pod earlier this month about it. So y'all know how I feel. I'm loving it. And I'm going to keep it a buck with you, Mal. I'm going to be real honest with you. I think I'm looking forward to it. Like, that's the show I look forward to most on Fridays. That's the show.

It's been nice that it's been dropping early on Thursdays out here. The Pacific Times Zone can watch it just over the course of a Thursday evening. and then gear up for the midnight viewing of Falcon. Thursday night, it's really something right now. Between that and then Mighty Ducks, which I'm also enjoying, it's just like a great Friday of your content. But Invincibles, you know, like I said, like I was on a pod, hey, you know, hey, if y'all want more Invincibles,

you tweet at Ring orverse and you let them know. Invincibles is great if you haven't checked it out. Please do. It's awesome. More to come on Invincible. More to come on Falcon and the Winter Soldier. More to come in future installments. of are you Tony Stank.

Can't wait to be back with you next week, Jomi. Thank you. Yeah, I have a great one. Don't forget about Sebastian Stan's Instagram. Just keep that image in your brain. Well, friends, it's time for some cherry blossom tea, which means it's also time to wrap today's episode. Remember, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ring Reverse. Join the Ringervorverse Facebook group. And of course, send us your mailbag questions for next week's episode and head back into the ringerverse on Friday for instant reactions from the midnight boys to the fifth episode of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Thank you to our producer Steve Alman as well as to TD St. Matthew Daniel, Arjuna Ram Gopal and the entire production team for their help with this episode. And thank you of course to Musa, T.D. and Jomi for joining me today. I'll be back next Tuesday for more Falcon and the Winter Soldier talk.

Until then, Steve, pass the Turkish delight.