The Ringer-Verse - Analyzing ‘Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings’

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

Mallory Rubin is joined by Ringer associate staff writer Daniel Chin to discuss and analyze a monumental addition to the MCU, ‘Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings’ (04:25)! Daniel also goes in-depth about the comics origin of the character and how this film and recent comic-book portrayals attempt to reclaim the character from his problematic origins (18:20). They also discuss the renowned cast and what the story means for the broader MCU, all before being joined by Jomi with your mailbag questions (133:04). You can read Daniel’s feature “The Reclamation of Shang-Chi” on The Ringer. Host: Mallory Rubin Guest: Daniel Chin Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From reviews to rankings, the big picture is all things movies. From in-depth analysis of the latest flick to sit-down interviews with some of the biggest movie stars and filmmakers on the planet, Sean Fennessee and Amanda Dobbins have got you covered. Check out The Big Picture on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

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You are also your father. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host of Binge Mode, head of editorial here at The Ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Tallow, but also to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things, fandom. Before we begin today, a few programming notes and reminders. the Midnight Boys, Van Lathen and Charles Holmes, have their Shang-Chi instant reaction episode up for you already. So check that out if you haven't.

The Midnight Boys will, of course, be back with you this Wednesday to chat about what ifs fifth episode. It is zombie time, folks. Follow the conversations by following the ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and following us across our social channels. And of course, bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Today's episode will contain plot details and spoilers from the newest Marvel movie, Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings.

So proceed with more caution than Razor Fist did when locking up his X-3. Joining me today. Now that he's finished grinding as much abomination fight tape as John John can provide. It's Ringer Associates, Staff Writer, and MCU expert. Daniel, welcome back into the Ringerverse. Thanks for having me back, Mal. I'm excited to talk about this movie.

I loved it so much. I am so excited to talk about it with you. First of all, congrats on the promotion. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Daniel, for anyone who's listening and does not know, is a resident Marvel expert here at the Ringer, always recapping and analyzing the latest Marvel show or movie on The Ringer.com. Check out his work.

Make it a part of your MCU experience. It is Can't Miss. New piece today from Daniel. Today is Tuesday. In case you're listening to this later, and I say today, today is Tuesday. New piece from Daniel this Tuesday. and the five biggest takeaways from Shang Chi. And last week, Daniel had an outstanding feature

in the run-up to the film, the reclamation of Shang-Chi. Please read both of those if you haven't yet. They are fantastic. Also, you can hear Daniel on the big picture where he joined Sean Fantasy last week to discuss the film, as did Shang-she's screenwriter Dave Callahan, by the way.

So check out that interview between Dave and Sean. That was a really, really awesome listen. Daniel, I am so excited to talk about this movie with you, which is just a wonderful film that I adored. I can't wait to talk about this, too. It was fun being on the Big Picture Pod with Sean, and it was a great conversation there, too, but I know, obviously, this is more of your realm. I think for Sean, it's more of another language for him sometimes with the Marvel stuff in particular. So I'm very excited to dive in with you.

Thanks for being here with me, buddy. and thank you for joining me from your literal cabin in the woods. What a setting. It's very tranquil. Oh, it's very peaceful up here, Mal, I know. I love it. So we have so much to cover, so much to talk about today. But I want to start with the opening weekend. Shang-chi is, of course, the 25th film in the MCU. It is the second film of Phase 4 following Black Widow. It is a milestone movie as the first MCU film starring an Asian lead, featuring a predominantly Asian cast. We will be talking about the cast, fantastic cast and performances,

much more as we go today. Directed by Destin Daniel Cretton, written by Dave Callahan, Creighton, and Andrew Lanham, produced by Kevin Feigy and Jonathan Schwartz. And the film is a hit. It is a box office hit, and it is a critical success. Let's talk about the box office for a minute here. The most current numbers that we have at the time of our recording, courtesy of box office mojo, $90 million domestically, $56.2 million internationally, 146.2 million globally. That set a Labor Day weekend box office record previously held by 2007's Halloween. It's the second biggest opening weekend of the pandemic behind...

fellow phase four MCU installment, Black Widow. Black Widow, of course, remember, was also released on Disney Plus Premier Access. Shang Chi is exclusively a theatrical release for this initial 45-day window before it will appear on Disney Plus. Of course, Disney CEO Bob Chapic had previously called this a, quote, interesting experiment to release the movie exclusively in theaters, which justifiably sparked a large amount of anger and ire in response, it is so awesome to see this movie do so well on opening weekend. What is your take on the box office return so far? I was definitely nervous myself. I think like a lot of people were just with how much the

theater industry has really been struggling during the pandemic. and it's been so up and down. And like, especially after seeing a movie like the suicide squad, which like critics loved so much, just like really tank at the box office. I think a lot of people had understandable concerns, especially going into a weekend, like Labor Day weekend, a holiday weekend,

that historically does not do really well at the box office. And just the fact that this movie not only exceeded all expectations, but like broke that Labor Day record, like before the pandemic too, was just like awesome. them to see, especially like you said, with the Disney CEOs calling it the interesting experiment and like seeing how, like, Simu had such a strong response into it, you know, talking about how like we are not an experiment because it really did just feel like attracting from a moment that

so many Asian Americans like myself have really been waiting for for such a long time. I mean, this is only the fourth Hollywood movie since like 1993 that has been like a predominantly Asian cast. And there's, there's a 25-year gap between the Joy Luck Club and Crazy Rich Asians in 2018. So the fact that this movie did so well, just not only critically, but really just knocked out of the park this, this first weekend domestically, it's, it's, it's really encouraging to see, like, how more movies like this can be made in the future. And, like, there will never be, like, that excuse anymore that there's concerns of, like, how this movie will do at the box office. That's, that's such a great.

important point. The critical response has also been incredibly strong and positive. Rotten tomatoes check in here again. This is as of Tuesday morning when we're recording. 92% among critics, 98% among audience members. That is phenomenal. And they're like, aren't superlative strong enough for that. That is just incredible. People love the movie. Again, like, I was a little nervous myself personally, especially like, I mean, we'll get into it more too with, like, I remember just coming out of that movie, just really thinking about how people would receive the third act. Yes, we would definitely dive into that. It's, you know, it's, again, like, just seeing that the response from both critics and fans alike

has been, like, great to see. Yeah, it has, the movie has just sparked such excitement and such joy, which is incredibly important because this is a milestone movie for Asian representation. Again, 25 movies in to the MCU, which is one of, if not, the dominant blockbuster cinematic experiences and forces in pop culture, center stage, Shang Chi is the first MCU movie to feature an Asian lead, an Asian superhero. And this is a monumental movie both because of the movie. both because of how meaningful it is for so many people to see this superhero, to see this cast,

to see this representation on the biggest cinematic stage. And also, crucially, because this film actively works to combat so much of Marvel's own problematic, deeply problematic comics history. And Daniel, your feature last week, The Reclamation of Shang Chi, you wrote and reported beautifully and really thoughtfully about that wonderful piece. I highly encourage anybody who has not read that to please go read that. Yeah, no, thanks so much. I mean, like, yeah, for me, like, growing up, I was a huge Marvel Comics fan and fan of the movies, too, obviously.

But, like, Shang-chi really wasn't a character I was very familiar with. It's just kind of interesting to me looking in hindsight just because there really weren't that many just characters in the comics, too, that were especially title characters. And his title series was discontinued in the 80s. So it was well before I really got into comics or anything like that, especially just within the scope of the MCU's own history too. They've obviously had their share of controversy too,

trying to especially represent Asian characters, most notably with Dr. Strange. And I know you and Jason talked about this at length for that binge mode episode on Dr. Strange, but just like the choice that they made in hiring Till the Swinton and like trying to avoid a problematic stereotype in, you know, something that's like become kind of a trope and just like, you know, the Asian guru type figure.

But rather than like taking the necessary steps to really try to recreate that character and modernize it and actually make it a more three-dimensional character, they just decided to whitewash the character. And it's like, I think in comparison, like what they, they did with Wong too. Like, because like Wong was, was a problematic character

in the comics, too. He was just kind of like, you know, the man servant that would serve tea to Dr. Strange. And like, they actually made him his own character. I mean,

now at this point, like, he's just so awesome to see every time. And he's just like popping up in movies all the time. Never disappoints. What a great showing from Wong in this movie. Can't wait to talk more about Wong.

Daniel, can you share with listeners who may not be as familiar with the comics history? specifically, why these stereotypical renderings, both in general and in Shang Chi's comics canon in particular, were so problematic and caused so much pain to so many people for so long. Yeah, like you mentioned, this is what I wrote about at length in my feature. With just the creation of Shang Chi in particular, it was so unique for any really like Marvel

super here. because the draw really was his father, who was a character that Marvel had licensed from Sax Romer, Fumann Chu, who was a deeply problematic racist pulp villain that was also one of the most prolific villains in the 20th century that was often in like Hollywood movies played by like a white actor, like stereotypically portraying an Asian, just like mystical.

evil being that just like wanting to destroy like Western civilization and and like the modern world in those early comics. I mean, first of all too, like, like Shang-she was was inspired by like David Caradine's Kung Fu, which that's a whole other conversation in itself with the problematic nature of that. But really what it boils down to is that Shang-chi really was in a very three-dimensional character in himself. And he really wasn't, again, the draw of this of this comic. And he more so came at a time when America was really getting into this, the kung fu craze, like the kung fu phenomenon that was sweeping across not only America, but really across the world after mostly, I'd say, like, Bruce Lee helped popularize it with Enter the Dragon in 1973.

So, like, with Shang-chi, like, he kind of just blends in with a lot of these, like, other, like, kind of like martial arts type characters, and there really wasn't too much of a focus on like his own backstory, what makes him unique, what makes him like a superhero, and more so it just didn't have this type of care or authenticity being brought into the character because it was really, you know, it was done by white creators for like a white audience. It's been amazing to see how much that's changed with this movie and also in the comic books right now with Gene Loon Yang just started up, who's also like, like one of my favorite comic book writers.

Like he had a great, just even like beyond superheroes, American-born Chinese, which came out, I want to say at the end of the 2000s, was a hugely influential book for me, at least growing up, just kind of capturing the Asian-American experience. And he's grown into like one of like the hottest writers in comics right now

where he's writing the Shang-Chi series for Marvel, but he's also written a lot of like Superman for DC. Like Superman Smashes the Clan was, like an Eiser winning story, which was incredible. But with the new series that he's doing, they're taking a similar tact with what the movie's doing, just in that they're like, you know, they're really focusing on building up the family dynamic

and really focusing on like what that's carrying over from that initial dynamic between, you know, him and his in Fu Manchu father. But now it's actually like not just two-dimensional figures on both ends of it. It's like now you actually get to see who this character is outside of just that relationship. You get to see this relationship with new siblings

that he's introducing in the comics. The way that it's been going, it's been awesome so far. He had one mini-series, brothers and sisters, and now there's an ongoing series, which has also been great, Shang-chi versus the Marvel universe.

New issue coming out this week. I think, yeah, I think tomorrow. I believe, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, versus the fantastic four. It's been cool. It has been phenomenal. I'm really glad you mentioned. that because that's, it's, it's so, it's so interesting how the movie and the comic reboot

are contemporaneous stories, contemporaneous and crucial resets. They are not directly connected. The movie is not based on the new comics arc. The comic is not based on the film script, but the parallels are so notable and I think so illuminating in terms of what you're describing where the fleshing out and full realization of the characters focusing on their humanity and the relationships between them. So you have distinctions like the focus in the comic arc on the Five Weapons Society instead of the Ten Rings, but there is a corollary. to assess in terms of how Shang-she is going to work to combat or reform his father's organization,

right? What clues might we be able to take from the comic path so far about what could happen in the MCU in the future? You mentioned the siblings, the sisters in the comic, it's not a one-to-one to his sister in the film, but what can we deduce from sister-house? Hammer's arc in brothers and sisters that may provide some sort of clue for what's to come in the MCU, but more importantly than I think any plot aspect in terms of sifting for nuggets and attempting to like prognosticate the future of the MCU, the thematic parallels.

And that deeply familial emphasis is. so notable in terms of those parallel tracks. Those comics are phenomenal. Everyone should read them if they haven't. Yeah, definitely, definitely go check that out. Some tough stuff for Spider-Man versus the Marvel Universe first issue there. You want to talk about this incredible cast

for a few minutes here? Yes, please. Yes, please. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

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He is probably best known previously for his role on the beloved Kim's convenience, which I had not previously watched, but I started watching over the past few days because I know how much people love that show. and I was really, I was eager to see Simu in it. Incredible. Yeah, he's, he's so good in that. And, like, I think something that really translate from that show is just, like, you know, it's a comedy.

And I think that he really nails, like, the comedic elements of this, in this movie and just also just the relationship that he has with, with Aquafina's Katie. Like, I feel like their, their chemistry, like, like, comedic-wise, like, is so good, especially, like, in the early part of this film when it's, when it's set in San Francisco. then like I feel like he just, he just nails these moments. Yeah, he's really perfect for the part. He has that leading man charisma.

You know, he's handsome. He's impressive. He has the physical presence of an action star. He has the humor to make you laugh, to make you smile, the charm. And it's through those relationships, as you noted, where you just like want to, be with him and he wins you over so fully in those quieter moments. And that, that to me is just

as key and maybe even more crucial to why it was such a successful casting and such a successful debut performance because there's so much, we're going to talk later about like the pacing and the tonal variance across the movie. But because there is so much tonal variance across the movie, you know, the lead needs to be able to nail all of those different beats and pull off like the emotional heft of the scenes with his father, but also just make you want to get some drinks and go to the karaoke bar when he's hanging out with Katie and everything in between. He was, he was tremendous. We're obviously going to talk a lot about Shang Chi, the character, what we learn and see in

this movie, his future inside of the MCU. but in terms of the casting, just incredible. And it's been so fun to see Simu out on the press tour, soaking up every moment. There's a star. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, too. Like, he's just done such a good job outside of the movie itself, just promoting this film. And to a greater extent, just like, especially over, you know, the past year and a half, as there's been so many attacks against the Asian community, he's been really, like,

outspoken the whole time. Like, he wrote a great piece for variety. a while ago, understanding how much of a platform that he now has, like being a Marvel superhero. And he's really just taking that to heart in every sense of the word

and, like, doing a fantastic job outside of this movie as well. Yeah. Yeah, he is really exceptional. Aquafina. It's the legend. A legend. She really is.

So interestingly, I believe she was the first actor, cast for a role in the film. I love, I love her so much in general. Like, I just adore her. I love Katie. Like instantly one of my favorite MCU characters. So fun, so heartfelt, so relatable in so many different respects.

I love characters inside of fantasy stories. who can unlock that audience avatar aspect, because of course, we all want to think about being the hero and what it would be like to be the one who saved the day, the chosen one. One of the more sort of natural positions to occupy when you're reading a story or watching a story is,

what would it be like to just fall into this world and have to try to navigate it? And also the fact that Katie is doing that her own life every minute, every day already. Navigating expectations, following her heart, her passion, trying to just have fun and enjoy herself,

but always having to think about and assess the future as well. I just, I thought she was awesome. I would watch a Katie spin off immediately. Yeah, no, that's a great point, though, with her, like, standing in as avatar. and like, I really just loved, like, just the scenes that really just show her experience well, too, like in the beginning with her family.

Like, I feel like that really just, like, captured, like, I don't know, at least for me, like, like, the Asian and American experience very well, like, just, like, the pressure that she's getting from her mom, the pressure from her grandma that when she's, like, asking Shang-chi, like, when they're going to get married, like, that was hilarious to me. And also just, like, the nuances that this film is taking to just to really show how much, like, really, like, you know, Asian culture is, like, not a monolithic culture where, like, you have this, like, especially in that dinner scene when, when they're with Wenwu, after Wenwu's, like, taking them, like, you know, you see her just, like, scarfing down the food.

And when Wu is, like, referring to her as, like, the American girl. And, like, just, like, the, you know, she's always just talking about how she, like, has trouble pronouncing, things like that. And, like, she really just stands in to, like, fit into the chaos of, of this world, like, so well. Like, she does a great job. You mentioned the dinner scene, you mentioned Wenwu. Tony Leung is an icon. We're going to talk about Wenwu and his performance more later and where this kind of instantly registers in the pantheon of Marvel performances and characters.

As a tease, I'll just say that I thought he was revelatory and magnetic and just, just like exceptional. One of my favorite Marvel performances in a long, long time. There were a lot of things to love about the movie. He was the absolute highlight. It's really cool just to see all the praise he's getting right now

just because for so many people in America, it's just like one of the first times. I feel like a lot of people are seeing such like a truly legendary actor in Asia. Just because he's had so many iconic roles in Hong Kong cinema. This is his first, like, Hollywood movie. And, and, like, it's amazing to me that it's, it's like, it's a Marvel movie.

You know, the fact that he's, like, in a Marvel movie right now, especially, like, Michelle Yo, too, like, somebody else who's been in so many iconic martial arts movies, like, just to have those two, like, bolstering this cast and, like, like, especially for a newcomer, like, like, like, Simu, to, like, have these two, like, truly iconic actors, like, behind him is, it was just, like, awesome to see. Yeah, Michelle Yo plays, of course, Shang-she's aunt, Yang Nan. She's always phenomenal, and she was here as well. I wish we had gotten even more, even more time with her.

I really, really hope that she's back in future installments. She was tremendous. The training scene with Nan and Shang-chi was so beautiful. And it's the kind of thing where I, like, the plot necessitates that that's happening quickly, right? We know there is a clock. But she was one of the characters and one of the performers who I wanted even more time with inside of the movie because like every, every scene we get with her is just a gym. Totally. Like, I mean, I love, one of my favorite parts of this movie was just how they kind

of jumped to like different styles of filmmaking, especially like with martial arts films and like going into like the, the Wusha type of films that like Michelle Yo has been a part of too. like everything around like just Ta Lo like including that incredible opening scene. The Me Cute with with with with with with with with with with with with with Chen and and with Tony Leung's Wen Wu. It's it was it was just like so great because it's like a you know it's like a dance and like just the the style that that they're really using for for Talo this like fairly like house of flying daggers like kind of kind of look too was just like so cool to see and like it's just like

blended really well into this, this world, I feel like. And also, like, I feel like, you know, again, we're going to get into the third act more, but like, I thought it did a nice job of, like, setting up that dynamic for much later in the film and, like, the parallels between, like, that and, like, when, you know, Shang Shi and when we finally face off in that, that whole training session with Yingnan and, and, uh, Shangxi as well. Yeah, totally agree. It was actually really helpful to, in addition to just how, like, balletic and stunning that, that sequence was, it was really helpful to have the magical primer, you know, to get a glimpse of that realm and the skill and magic of the gods to anticipate that we would be, of course, moving back

toward that and returning to Tallow in some capacity so that even when you have that experience as a viewer where you maybe don't want to leave a certain pace or setting of the film, because it is so gripping and immersive. Quick shout out to Mangar Zhang as well. We can talk more about this later too, but I really loved her performance and her role and her own individual story in it. I would love to see more of her.

I think you will be seeing more of her based on that. Post-Gredit Stinger. We can save that more for later. But as far as I've seen it twice now, I saw it for like a press screening like a few weeks before the movie came out, eagerly awaiting seeing it again opening night. Definitely going to see it again soon with my parents. Especially like in the press screening too, because it was like a very packed theater.

It was like really cool being back like and like really feeling like why it's so special, especially seeing these these Marvel movies. Like people were cheering the second like the Marvel intro music was coming on. I was like, oh, it's going to be really fun. Was this your first time back in a theater? It really felt like it, but I had been back. I mean, like, I saw a quiet place and there was, like, one other family in the theater with us. So it really didn't, like, feel, like, it just felt like watching on. Like, it was a little bit bizarre, you know, it's like, because you can really feel like the echoes of, of just being in an empty theater. And, like, but at least that's a nice, calm, soothing movie.

So I'm sure that wasn't, like, in any way enhancing how disturbing that viewing experience are any way. Not at all. It would have been even worse for the first one. But at any rate, like, being. being back for this movie and seeing that press screening, like people were just like cheering every time, like somebody would come up on screen for the first time. Like Tony Leung got a massive applause.

And being back and seeing that and just being able to like respond with this crowd in a way, like reminded me like how much of like, you know, it feels like a spectator sport sometimes with these, with these Marvel movies. It's an event. If you're at the right theater and like it really reminded me of like the pre-pandemic, like seeing these movies. And especially like with just the historical nature for this film,

just like the representation. elements of it. It was truly incredible to see it, especially that first time. That's amazing. How did the experience change for you

after the subsequent viewings? It didn't land as well the second time, especially because, like... Oh, really? Interesting. Again, I loved it, but I think because

it was so fun and so special seeing it the first time, I mean, I still, again, like, I loved seeing it the second time as well, but it was a much more muted crowd. So I think, like,

that element of it, I saw the second one in New York on opening night. And like it was still like, you know, there was still like a decent number of people on it, but it was still like nowhere, nowhere near. Like it would have been like pre-pandemic. And like, again, I'm so happy that it's doing well.

And I still like love seeing it. Like, loved like being able to like pick up a few things that I didn't see the first time as well. And like really being able to like, you know, what to look for and what to expect. I feel like in, you know, even just beyond this movie, like the crowd that you're seeing will with the movie with is like always going to affect like your.

viewing experience when you're seeing in theaters. I had kind of like the opposite experience. I've seen it twice as well. I loved it both times. Initially, I had the great pleasure and privilege of seeing it with the LA-based Ringervor Squad. Nice. Also at a press screening.

It was so fun to safely, you know, gather and just be together. And then to see a Marvel movie together. It was like really wonderful and cool. In terms of the movie itself, I really enjoyed it and really liked it right away. But because it is so much to process, like there's so many new characters you're meeting, there's so much new lore that you're learning.

I think the second time around, I loved it even more because I knew, I knew what pacing to expect. I knew, of course, what the plot beats were going to be. And I had had that initial experience of learning about and being exposed to the mythology. So I felt like I was able to understand it and navigate all of the different aspects of the story a little bit more fully the second time around. I mean, that's often my experience with new movies and frankly, even new episodes

of TV. Like, that's, that's for me not unique to this. It's the first time. And, you know, Van and Charles talked about this a little bit on Midnight Boys. Like the first time I'm often like, okay, I don't want to miss anything. What am I going to talk about on the pod? You know, let me make sure I'm like keeping this mental log. And, you know, this was the first time in a while, actually, because so many things have been out on streaming where I was like, oh, I'm not going to be able to check everything, you know, 10 times and rewatch and take super detailed notes.

I have to like remember as much as I possibly can. So I think the second time it just, it helps too because like this is just maybe me personally and my anxiety. I just felt a little more calm and present while watching the movie in. I got to see it with, I went to see it with my husband and one of my pals. And that was really fun too. And it was just like cool to, you know, have after the first viewing the ringerverse chat and everybody like really. just diving into all of the ramifications of the story and all of the character beats right away. And then it was so interesting to just like, you know, talk to a couple friends after

who I think have like differing degrees of Marvel fandom. And one of the people I saw the movie with was my really good pal Steve. And he was, it was so awesome because he was like, this was, I think, like the most, the first two-thirds of that movie. I hope I'm paraphrasing. him correctly here. This will be a good test to see if you listen to the podcast. You know, the first, he was like the first two-thirds of the movie were the most confident

that a, a Marvel movie has been. Like just a clarity of intention and execution. It's like, yeah, that's a really notable achievement, you know? And I guess that's, that's as good a segue as any into that classic Marvel third act narrative, which we definitely should talk.

about for a minute. And I think this can be part of discussing overall, you know, the flow and pacing and tonal balance of the film. I could have spent years of my life in the first hour of this

movie. I thought we'll divide it into thirds, I think, but the first half really, and really ultimately the first two thirds, just so gripping. And yeah. like nearly flawless, really, just exceptional.

The kind of story where you immediately want to spend more time with all of the characters, but not because you feel like you need that additional time to understand them, just because you want to be with them and you want to learn more about their lives and like see more of how they spend their time together. I thought that the San Francisco opening stretch in particular was exquisite. like the examination and portrayal of a friendship, of professional ambition, you know, work-life balance, family, found family,

always one of my favorite themes, and to establish the found family for the characters before then bringing in more fully, the blood family was such a smart way to structure the movie. And then that middle third going, you know, to Golden Dagger's and Macau and then to Wenwu's headquarters, just such a rich examination of a very complex family dynamic, like such emotional heft in that entire sequence. So I thought the first two thirds of the movie were sublime. Yeah. the CGI mega fight ending, I will say two things.

Then I want all of your thoughts. One, it honestly doesn't bother me as much as it bothers, I think, a lot of other moviegoers. Daniel, I love magic. I love spectacle. And to me, the key is always, is the story, whether it's a TV show, a film, anything, able to maintain the central focus on character inside of that spectacle. That is the essential element. I felt ultimately that even though there is undeniably a shift in the final third,

this spectacular stretch, this fantastical stretch, still centered on the key dynamic between, Shang Chi and Wenwu. And so in that sense, it worked for me. Plus, I thought there was just so much to love in Talo, like the culture, the magic, the creatures. But yes, of course, the shift in the movie at that point in the movie is the one thing that like didn't work quite as well for me as the rest of the movie. I definitely concede that point. But it's almost more because I did love everything else so much.

Like it set such a high bar. And I wanted more of that almost intimate focus. I think, you know, you and Sean talked about this briefly on a big pick. And I was really glad you brought this up because I had been thinking this too. Like when people talk about the Marvel third act problem, the Marvel CGI mega-fighter. problem. Again, there's a part of me that's like, well, that's okay because that's part of how these stories are constructed. And that's part of what ultimately we're like going to see. And then there's a part of me that's like, they don't have to always be that way. And Loki showed us that.

Like the conclusion of Loki is anchored in full on conversation and character arc. And so I'm I'm eager to see in general whether more MCU installments, TV shows or films, lean in that direction a little bit more. I think that would be cool to see. What about you? How did you feel about the overall flow of the film and that third act in particular?

Yeah, I think I'm actually, like, definitely with you on this where, like, I don't think I minded it as much as, as like because a lot of people like were immediately on this like this third act and like how it you know took away from from some of the film it to me it definitely was was the one part where it kind of stumbles a little bit but like to your point like I really just loved like Ta Lo

a lot and like just like such an incredible new mythology yeah like when when they go through the the portal there and like it opens up into this world and you see these all these like beautiful like mythical creatures from like Chinese folklore too, like being able to see like the nine-tailed foxes and like the guardian lions and stuff like that. Like that was really special on me and like being able to see this like kind of, you know,

this almost like sanctuary that's that's here in like another dimension. And yeah, that's a great way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah. Like being able to like, you know, like that like training session scene like I loved with like Yingnan and like again like would love more of Michelle Yo in this movie. And like even to me like there's something cool about, you know, this being like, the first, like, really, like, Asian-led movie and there being, like, two dragons, like, like, like, like, like, like, especially just, like, having this, like, amazing water dragon, like, a lot of that I did, like, but it was, like, especially, like, towards the end, like, with, with, like, the way, like, when, Wen Wu dies, like, very suddenly, I, I really

did wish it was more focused on, on Shangxi and Wen Wu in that, in that kind of space and in, in that way. But I think it's also, like, again, like, to your point with, like, especially with all these, these TV shows and movies happening simultaneously. I feel like every time that one of these movies or TV shows comes out at this point, we're going to be wondering, well, would this have worked better as a series? Would this have worked better as a movie? And like, there's so many parts of this where I was just like, this is exactly why we need to have movies still.

Like, like some of the incredible action sequences, like the bus fight sequence and like the whole, like the scene in Macau with like the fighting alongside the bamboo. like that is like I need to see that in a movie theater. But there was a part of me too that was just like, again, like I would, I would love to see like, especially like the first two thirds of that of the movie being drawn out across a series. But also like I would have loved to be in Talo for like way longer too. And like to be able to like see more of that world more, again more of like Michelle Yos, in Nan.

And like being able to like really build up that third act more I think would have really helped it like stick that landing so much more. but I think also just like the way they tie it back into the bar scene was so funny. I loved that. She was just like, all right. I know like, like, stop, stop, stop fuck with me. Like I know like this is, I know I know I said this last time. And it was just like, you know, they come with the most outlandish story.

But like it was, it was just so funny. And then with Wong coming through, taking the drink, pulling them aside. Like I was like, I was like, I was dying when I saw that in theaters. And like it really like, it really, it really. really tied it all together for me in a way that, like, I had had all the feels walking out of that movie both times. Yeah. Man, I'm glad you mentioned that because you know what I loved about that in addition to what

you're observing just about the very smart and deft structural choice of tying the story together with the bookend conversations. I always like to think about how the people inside of this fictional universe think about the things that are happening around them and like how much acceptance there is and how much doubt there still is

about the fantastic and awe-inspiring things that are possible in their universe. I really liked that conversation because that just feels like true to life to me.

That even if you have been alive for the Snap and Thanos and the Avengers and seen, you know, whether you were in New York or just watching the footage of the Chetari Invasion, like on and on and on the list goes of all of these things that have happened,

you know these things are possible. You still wouldn't believe it if your friend sat across the table and said to you, I'm a part of this now. So I loved that. I like those little moments that really make you, like, allow you to just again, like live in the moment and live in life with those characters. It's different, but like of a piece with the mill near lifting party scene and Ultron or the Schwarma Stinger and Avengers, just like these characters hanging out, talking about

stuff. Yeah, it's great. It's so great having these like grounded moments, like looking back into the bar too and just seeing like the shock on and like everybody's face, like when they're going through this portal or just like something is small too. It's like, Shang-chi just being like, you know, I'll Venmo you're like, don't worry. Venmo line was iconic. I loved that so much.

Oh, God. Obviously, you know, the BMW usage is the star on the product placement front, but definitely a nice shout out there for Venmo. You mentioned the action sequences and really feeling glad that you were able to see those on the big screen. Let's talk about the martial arts choreography and aspects of the film for a minute. It's so impressive. Often, again, as we have both said, it's beautiful shout out here to. to the late Brad Allen, long-time member of Jackie Chan's team who coordinated the fight sequences for this film. How did you feel overall about the martial arts choreography in the movie?

We get to see many different sequences that give us different vibes, different references, different energies. Did you have a favorite? It's tough because I really, I loved all the fights. sequences so much. Like, yeah, again, like, shout out to Brad Allen. And, like, it's, it's, it's, like, awesome being able to see how many different styles they're kind of integrating and just, like, how each, each character kind of, like, leans into a different style. And I think, really, for me, it was, it was that bus fight sequence, like, that, that first one, especially because it's the first time you really see in an action and, like, having this kind of same reaction that

Katie's having, just like, oh, my God, like, who, who is this guy? You know, he was just, you know, he was just parking cars, like, 10 minutes ago. And just the way that he was, he was, he, he like, it really felt like an ode to like, like Jackie Chan's like Rumble in the Bronx where he's like using his his jacket to like, you know, dispatch these these guys like coming at him. But also just like, especially with Simu's performance and with Shang Chi as a character too, he's really blending this kind of use of like comedy into his fighting and like using like the things around him, which like I feel like Jackie like really helped make so famous.

Like you have these like little moments where he's like waving to somebody as he like, gets knocked over, you know, like, this is like funny, like, little moments and just, like, they really just, like, nail these moments and, like, with the bamboo scene, too, I thought was so incredible. And, like, that's, like, the type of thing that, like, really, it's just, like, it's so cool seeing this on a massive screen. All right, I'm going to cheat and give two answers. Of course. All right, I'm going to go with one for the thrill and one for the beauty. So for the thrill, I'll go with the Macau Golden Dagger's building exterior, building facade, fight sequence.

I'm going to get second place in that category for the bus sequence, which was obviously just so fun. Movement, like the fluidity of the sequence outside the building and the way that the characters moved around each other, interacted with their environment. and then, of course, the culmination of that, like going back inside and when we were eventually appearing the showdown between Shang Chi and Death Dealer, that was just all awesome. It's awesome. I think that my other pick, though, is probably not only my favorite in this category, but like one of my favorite scenes in the entire movie, that initial meeting between Shangxi's parents

between Wenwu and Ying Li, like the grace and the harmony. It's just breathtaking. Like the balletic quality, the absolute magnetism on display in those performances. It was just a wonder. It was like a wonder to behold. It's amazing.

It's why we watch movies to, to feel that way watching something. Like they set up the story too of like how like the way she's telling it as well. And like you know like it's it was it was all just like so so beautiful like so beautifully done and like like how it does set up like the final battle too again with with Zhang Qi and Wenwu and like just like those like slow motion looks as they're like kind of like fighting but like dancing together too the way that like Falichens Ying

Ying Li was just using his like body against him. And again just like really kind of aping this this style that you know, know, like with crouching tiger, hidden dragon and movies like that, like, hero. Like, it's, it's so cool seeing that being brought into this Marvel universe, like, being brought into this movie, but in a way where it really like kind of goes in so seamlessly, I felt like. Yes. It's a great point because there is actually a lot of really crucial exposition unfolding in

the voiceover during that sequence. But you're almost like absorbing that via osmosis. because you're so wrapped, watching. Like, you're focused on ultimately the emotion and the thematic resonance. And that's really, like, elevated storytelling when you're getting this crucial download, but you're just focusing on how you feel. And, you know, that, that, like, I mean, just something like, again, Tony Leong is just so mesmerizing in this movie. And, like, when he just, you know, he looks up.

after she beats him and he's drenched and he just kind of smirks. Like he's conveying so much with every expression and every movement. But I love, too, in the broader sense, beyond even those two characters, like what you're saying about it really priming you, it tells you so much about how the story is going to center on not only how important it is to know your nominal opponent, but that really the key is knowing yourself. And so much of the story hinges on that character growth and that scene just unlocks that for us so fully.

I loved it. One more kind of like big picture structural question for you before we dive into some of the MCU-wide questions and then dive further into the characters. What did you think about the use of flashbacks and the way the flashbacks were deployed across the film? I loved so many of the flashback sequences, especially just the way that it really just does a great job of establishing this dynamic between Wenwu and Shang Chi especially,

but also Shang Chi with Sha Ling, just the whole background, like all of those scenes I thought were just so powerful and so well done. And also just like especially in the case, of when Wu, when, when Wu, like, when, when, like, goes to seek revenge. And he's in this, like, the suit with the rolled up, you know, sleeves for his 10 rings.

I was like, oh, my God. This man, like, it was so incredible. Just, like, with his son, just, like, trembling in the background. And then just, like, looking him straight in the eyes. He's like, are you going to help me, like, get revenge on this? And, like, it's just, like, nodding. It's just, like, it's such a great and powerful moment. And really, like, what I think really helped, like, not that I knew that Tony Leung was

was going to do fantastic in this movie. But moments like that where I was just like, Wenwu was like one of my favorite Marvel villains that I've seen yet and like moments like that. And just like, but also just really those flashbacks showing like the journey that he's had to, like the relationship and the love that he has for his family, for his wife and like the pain that he feels when he knows that he's,

he's messed up by taking off these rings for the first time in like lifetimes. And just being like I could have prevented this. Like, yeah, exactly. And we would have never dared. And, like, it's, I think it just was so crucial to the storytelling of this movie. And I thought they, like, really nailed it. Yeah, I agree. I really loved the way that the, not only that the, that flashbacks were present in the film,

but specifically the way that they were dispersed throughout the movie. Instead of just having this one, like, longer flashback sequence, you're constantly weaving in and out of time. And I think that if that were. ultimately like executed less well or like attempted even in less capable hands, it could be the kind of structural choice that takes you out of the movie because every time you feel like you're like moving forward, then you are shifting to just a different moment. But I thought it achieved the opposite here, which was really allowing us to better understand not only where the characters

are in a given, in this current moment in time, but how they got there. And the key moments, that have informed and shaped their choices and their lives. And I, you know, one of the moments that you just cited really stood out to me too and something like in that decisive moment of, you know, okay, you don't actually know where this person is. You can't tell me this delivering that fatal up close blow and the jolt, like the way that young Shang-she responds to that. It is so harrowing. But the mix, the mix of tenderness and grief and fear that we get across those sequences, that's like the stew of life. You know, you're able to

better understand who the characters are and why they have done the things that they do in those decisive climactic moments because the film found away and ultimately a really short span of time to show you those things. And I also loved that it allowed Shangxi's mother, Wen Wu's wife, Ying Li, to remain present across the movie

instead of just being, like, another death at the beginning of a comic book story that shapes the events to come. Like, it allowed her to, to be a part of the rest of the film

and to feel more present. for us as viewers and for the characters. So I loved it. Yeah, no, me too. And like just, again, to your point, too,

with, like, the way they, they, they are able to, like, with being Lee in particular, especially,

like, towards the end with that, you know, that faithful scene where, where she's, you know, where she gets killed, like,

the way that they, in this flashback, they break it apart in different perspectives where at, at first, you know, you're just focusing on young, young Shang-chi, like,

watching this in, horror, but also just you can see the perspective from, you know, the mob that has, has, uh, come to their, their, their home. Like, you can see Yingli and Shang Chi just like talking, but you can't hear what they're saying yet. And then they go like to that moment later again. And you have this like, like, like great moment between the two of them that, you know, Fala Chen, I thought to, did great with the little screen time that, that, that she had. Like, it was, it was great to see. Yeah. And again, that's like crucial plot, right? You have the heart of our dragon. we need to ultimately be able to accept what we're seeing about basically how Shangchi powers up, right?

But also that moment is, like, that is its function, but that's not its purpose, if that makes sense, right? Like, it is about ultimately the relationship and love between those people and the lasting impact of that kind of loss. Daniel Morris says that we're 90% through this episode. Oh, wait. 19%. So let's talk about some of the MCU-wide questions. Rankings. Let me issue a caveat right from the jump here.

I think it's getting really hard to rank Marvel movies. There are a lot of them. There's too many. going to be more and more, more, more, more and more. Increasingly, I'm ranking by like subcategory initially, and then I'm waiting to assess the ultimate pecking order to we know more about the future of the MCU because so much depends ultimately on how you feel about a film

on what it spawns. you know, what comes after and how we compare our initial feelings about a movie to ultimately that old, that old friend hindsight. So all of that said, I'm still going to ask you the question. Where does Shang-she rate for you right now? You reserve the right to change your mind at any point in time. And you don't even have to give a specific number. You can just give kind of general vibe. Among the MCU's origin story films. That's what I'm interested in right here. And, you know, within that, like, are there certain films that stand out to you as the clearest comps in a given way?

It's definitely a tough question with how many, with how many origin, even with how many origin, even with origin movies, there's so many at this point. So many. There are really quite, quite a few origin movies. But I think, I think for me, I mean, part of it, of course, is just the, the element of just like how long I've waited for a movie like this. That's, of course, and I feel like make me lean a little bit more towards its favor. But this is definitely among my favorites, alongside, like, Black Panther easily.

Just so much, like, for representation on both ends, you know, just with Chadwick Boseman's incredible performance and that just being, like, you know, the first black superhero in the MCU. But also just, I mean, both movies had just such great storytelling involved. And I think like my two favorite villains of the MCU in Wenwu and with with Killmonger because they do such a great job with just establishing where they're coming from and just like what their motives are. But I think those two are really high up for me.

I'm always going to have love for the original The Iron Man. I think I think Guardians. I think those are like my like top four honestly. Just because Guardians was just such a different space where it was just like so. different from every other Marvel movie and the fact that just like Guardians of the Galaxy just like on paper were just like probably the most random franchise that they could possibly be attempting to to kick off with you know with with with character like you know rocket raccoon and and like crude and stuff like that and it's just like the magic of that that movie was was was like this awesome so like I think I don't know no particular order those those are my top for but probably Shangchi and like Black Panther or up the top yeah I think that there are a couple different ways to kind of assess the comps within the origin story bucket of Marvel films. And as you noted, there are quite a few. I think, you know, as you just mentioned, Black Panther. And I think Captain Marvel, because of what those movies meant for, as well as Shang Chi, for representation,

Shang Shi is a vastly superior film to Captain Marvel. Not close, right? Yeah, agreed. Black Panther is a really high bar to clear. I mean, that movie was nominated for Best Picture. Yeah, and Chadwick is just unbelievable. Incredible film. But I agree with you that because of what it means

and because of how successfully and strongly crafted it is, Shang Chi is at the top of the list among Marvel origin stories. I think that the other way that I found myself thinking about it was with Thor and Dr. Strange as comps for obviously completely different reasons. Not only needing to establish a new central character, a new hero, but also new realms and mythologies. And within those two, I think that Thor is the closer comp, the first Thor movie, because it also has to establish this family dynamic that is the propulsive force for hero and villain alike. Shang Chi is a better movie than the first Thor movie. It is. So again, that's pretty notable.

And like, I love, to be clear, like, I love the Thor franchise. but if you're putting Shangxi and Thor head to head, I think I think Shangxi clearly comes out ahead as a more well-crafted film. You know, again, overall, I think it's impossible to do like a full top-to-bottom one through 25 power ranking and at the moment until we really see how phase four plays out.

And then even then we start to get into like, well, are we ranking the shows alongside the movies if they're that inextricable, like looking at what happened in Loki with the multiverse. So it's getting very complex. But with all of our hedges accounted for, the takeaway is we're big fans. Yeah. And like one other thing I'd just like to add, too, with Black Panther and with Shang Chi, too,

is just the directing being so great on both sides, you know, with like with Ryan Coogler and Destin Daniel Creighton, but also just like how they kind of had, I feel like somewhat similar. Like, you know, like very early movies, like, you know, like Fruit Fail Station. just being like such a, you know, having like more of like the indie type of feel like, like short term 12 and just like like, like being so like character driven and just like having so much emotional depth and like really focusing on on characters in such like a powerful way and just like also not really expecting to have somebody like, you know, like Dustin Dan Creighton and with like Ryan Coogler, you know, like having these like massive superhero movies.

And I guess Ryan Coogh did like Creed as well, which was fantastic. But just like such a different like style. and like type of movie. So yeah. And, you know, we talk so often about the Marvel machine and the, you know, reality and necessity of the way that so many of these things connect. It's been really interesting to listen to and read interviews with Dustin or Callahan and hearing them talk about like, okay, receiving a pamphlet of the characters they

were allowed to include in the movie and how quickly. the characters who were in the considerations that would change in all of the different Marvel-wide factors that, you know, are just again, like realities of making an MCU movie. But one of the ways really that the MCU has matured is showcasing the style and skill of each of the filmmakers. And, you know, it's been really rewarding, I think, as viewers to see the MCU evolve in that respect in recent years. And it's, it's one of the things that I'm most looking forward to as well, like the

continuation of that with the movies to come. I mean, Eternal's. It's really like Academy Award winning directing. Chloe Scha. That's amazing. I can't wait for that. It's an exciting moment from the filmmaking perspective for sure.

I'm glad that, uh, I'm glad that you mentioned that. Sean will be proud of you for bringing up the. craft of directing here on Ringerverse. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

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Listen, we've got a lot we haven't hit on yet. We haven't talked about. We haven't talked about Trevor. We haven't spent nearly enough time on Morris, but we haven't talked about the blip and the time frame questions that this raises. How far after the blip is this film set? And where in the MCU timeline are we? Here are some clues as we attempt to just spend a couple minutes parsing this year. And it's also possible, by the way, that the deduction here is it doesn't really matter, but I always find myself obsessing over this because so many stories at the beginning of phase four, and of course, the end of phase three, like far from home is the coda of phase three, and that's set eight months after end the game. And how do these stories and what we're learning about

the world inside of them relate to each other. So what are the clues inside the movie? We know it's set after the blip for a couple of different reasons we hear the characters talking about, you know, we're living in a world where half of life can vanish. And then we see like visual indicators as well. We get the shot of the posters covering the wall outside the apartment complex, dealing with post-blip anxiety, etc. So we are clearly placed at.

after the blip. Now, again, far from home, we've gotten the movie that was post-blip, but this is the first movie in phase four that's post-blip because Black Widow, aside from the Stinger,

was set much earlier in the timeline, right? Between Civil War and Infinity War. The shows that we've gotten so far, Wanda Vision was, like, three-ish weeks post-blip. Falcon and the Winter Soldier is, like, six-ish-ish, months post blip. Loki kind of exists outside of time, but obviously the initial moment that sparks Loki is spores off, splits off from the Avengers and the time hice.

So that's a different MCU timeline in many respects. We know we're post-flip, how far post-blip. Thomas Bacon over at Screen Rant had a piece in which he broke this down and he he placed it, he placed the movie basically six months after the blip. Blip is October 2003 and the screenerant piece pointed to what we learned in the film about when the gate to tallow opens, the King Ming Festival, which is in April. So that would mean if it's April, that's either April 2004, which is, again, six months after the blip,

which would put this movie like in parallel timeline to Falcon, which is interesting to think about. Or if it's April 2025, then it's a year and a half after the blip. That feels too long.

I don't think it can be a year and a half after the blip. That's too far. Here's my question for you. First of all, does any of that make sense? Did I get that wrong? Second of all, is six months, if that is right, does that feel too soon based on some of what we see in the movie,

including Bruce Banner, appearing in the first stinger, is no longer Professor Hulk. He's no longer smart Hulk. Now, again, if we account for the MCU at large, this probably just needs to happen because we know he's going to be a part of She-Hulk. But you would think, based on what we understood about where Bruce was an endgame, like mentally, emotionally, the intentionality behind how he was choosing to live his life at that moment, that to me indicate it's real time has passed.

Real time has passed. His arm is still in a sling, so you might think initially like, oh, maybe that means it's closer to, but the Russo brothers at least, end game directors, they said that in their perspective and, you know,

like famously, the Rousseau's and Marcus and McFile, the directing team and screenwriting team, like, differ on how they view the cap timeline thing. So who knows what is really like sacred word and canon here? But they have said that they viewed Bruce's injury from using the gauntlet as lasting. That that is something he will carry. That doesn't heal. So the sling isn't really a timeline clue then, if that's true. Okay. So what else? Carole. girl's hair. Very long. Also, shouts to Captain Marvel just always, always popping out,

you know, has a lot of other shit going on, a lot of other meetings. I love that moment where she's like, I don't have her number. She just does this.

That was so funny. I just, I love those self-referential MCU moments. You know, hair grows. So like, we can't glean too much

with specificity from that. But again, clearly time has passed. One thing that I can't shake in terms of the six-month thing is how San Francisco looks. Because San Francisco was also, of course, home to Scott Lang, Ant-Man,

and that is a key setting in endgame, and we see, I mean, we see the state of much of the world, you know, shots to your Mets and City Field, rough one. But we see that San Francisco is in disrepair in endgame. It's looking pretty good. here in Shang Chi. Is that enough time

to get to that point? I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, it's it's getting harder and harder to follow the sacred timeline here. It's truly, there's a lot to unpack here

and with all of that. Like, I think like while I do, like, you know, just being such a big fan of this universe and having to really cover it so much for the site, of course,

I think about all these things so much too. But I really, really just love how like these origin stories kind of allow the space to like mostly kind of just kind of ignore that and like I think if you think about it too hard definitely like you can always like kind of nitpick

how like these things are just not it's just not gonna make sense when it comes down to it and it's interesting to see like Falcon and the Winter Soldier like tackle it like head on or like right it was such a funny moment and far from home too like in the beginning where they're like showing like the marching band like disappear or like how like Brad

was like just like a monster now. He's just like huge and stuff like five years later, but like their grade hasn't moved up. So like the way they've just like kind of addressed that like in moments is always very funny. But it would just be too difficult to really allow the focus to be on Shang Chi, on his backstory,

on this whole, you know, family history with Wen Wu. If, if we're focusing too much on how how the world is definitely going to be still totally messed up like six months after the fact. Like I mean like, he goes on like a flight and it's just like seems like the world is normal you know i feel like

it would be especially with all the implications from falcon on the winter soldier it's just like there's so many complicating factors with like whether or not you can even like cross borders like easily like at this at this time too so it gets very confusing in that sense and then just like you know especially if the question of whether or not these characters have blipped like what like if they were gone for those five years right okay so let's talk about that for a minute yeah did shangchi blip. I feel like it would be very easily like a like a narrative like way to just say like he did like just because it would like allow for him like not to to age or like to like be dealing with whatever the world is like when when you know half of the world's in the universe's population is gone.

Especially like when you know he's such a incredible fighter already that's like trained so much of his life. I mean I guess there there wasn't. I mean who knows what's going on. in these five years. They still haven't really explored that at full length. And I'm sure at some point, Marvel will, because there's just so much potential storytelling that you could do there in itself to... Let me present some math.

Yeah, yeah. What do you think? Arjuna, our good pal, Arjuna Ramgo Pal, who shared these very detailed slack breakdowns with me. And I am compelled by this. if any of this is wrong, you guys can blame Arjuna. Okay.

Just kidding. Be nice to Arjuna. Okay. We know from the meat cute that Shang Chi is born in 96, maybe 97, right? His parents meet in 96. He's seven when his mother is killed. He's 14 when his father sends him to pay the blood debt to kill his mother's kill. his mother's killer,

and that is also the age at which he runs away, does not return. Wen Wu says that he gave his son 10 years. Katie says that she has known Shang Chi for half his life. So that only works, that math, if he blipped. The Katie line, that's like a thing people say. That could, oh, I've known you half of your life.

That can be imprecise. That's fine. but 14 plus 10 makes him 24, and he can only be 24 in 2024 if he blipped, right? So Arjuna has then a second aspect to this breakdown, which is that he believes that we can deduce both from the math and the character arc that Shang-chi's sister Sha Ling didn't blip.

And that she used that time those years to build up the golden daggers. And that's why that's so established at that point in time. Because we know she waited six years after Shangxi left before she also ran away. Interesting to think about. Great work by Arjuna here. That's, I don't even, I'm speechless. Good stuff, Arjuna. I believe he did that all after seeing the movie once.

So it was just floored. Impressive. Flowing away. He said, he slacked me and said, do you think that Sharcheeb lipped? I said, I don't think so. And then he just instantly sent me 75 slacks to prove that I was wrong. It was great. Producing, ladies and gentlemen, round of applause.

Okay, here's another MCU-wide question that I have for you. Because again, whatever the answer is to where exactly this falls in the timeline, where we'll ultimately rank it, any of those things. what is fixed is when we see it, what we have seen before it, and when it is actually released, right, in relation to other Marvel stories. I'm about to ask you about the multiverse, Daniel. How does this movie, in that macro sense, in terms of the larger multiversal emphasis, we can assume, of the rest of phase four, based on how Loki concluded, based on the entire proposition of what if based on the trailer

for Spider-Man No Way Home if anyone is interested in a 900-hour long breakdown of that boy to Daniel and I have a podcast for you here on the Ring ofverse. How does this movie fit in as an origin story that is deeply intimate in its focus

on a specific and new hero character set realm fit in among this mass multiversal expansion. And not only how does it fit in, but how did that work for you as a viewer? Well, part of me is already just like, wow, the multiverse is a lot already.

It's really coming up so much in every movie that we're seeing because we've had, like, even just starting with the first Doctor Strange and just like having the quantum realm and Antman, and really just most importantly, I think just the work that Loki does, to kind of normalize the multiverse into just lexicon of the MCU and just this concept where

like they're going to Tau Loh and you don't even think a second about it, I feel like. You know, it's like you can, it's just in another, in another franchise, like in another just, even if this movie was just purely a standalone movie, you're just like, what is this whole other dimension they're going into? Like, what is this? But like, because we're so familiar with this now, with the multiverse in general, like, they can just go to Talon. It's just like, oh, that was a pretty sweet way to go into another dimension.

They just went through this waterfall and stuff like that. It's interesting to see how it's woven into the storytelling of this, but it's also like not, you know, the whole point of it in the way where like multiverse is so integral to the storytelling of Loki where like this is just like an element to it and just like a way to really get to this like whole new, whole new dimension and whole new like world that we haven't really seen. Yeah, I agree. I thought it was not surprising that the multiverse wasn't more present because, again, I think one of the, frankly, one of the things that's enjoyable about the MCU is that each project has its own purpose and its own focus and its own scale.

And so I actually think it would have been weird if Shang Chi was just this like multiversal expedition, like, multiversal expedition. like so many of those other things are going to be, when that's not the point, nor should it be, of this introduction. I thought it was, it was nice and refreshing. Because like,

I love the multiverse. I love to nerd out and talk about all of the ramifications. But it's, it's, it was nice to shift the scale and shift to the focus in that way. And I think that your, your point about Tello is a really good one because I think that it's important for us to always remember, like, if we date back to Dr. Strange, that inside

of the MCU, the multiverse and how we think about it and how we understand it, it didn't just start with Loki. It has been evolving over time. It's not just about timelines and the shattering of the sacred timeline and the variations of our Earth or our universe. It is also about dimensions, about realms. And so like you're saying, to have this dimension and Tala was a pocket dimension in the comics, that you're accessing through this portal,

you're able to just accept fully where you are, feel, I thought, genuine excitement to learn about a new dimension. And then at the end, when you're reflecting, the questions come about how Talo might connect then

to what we will learn about the multiverse. Like, we're going to talk in a few minutes about the beacon reveal with the 10 rings in the first stinger and what that might mean, but one of the things I found myself thinking about was, okay, if Wong is saying that they were able to detect in Comeratage,

Shang Chi using the 10 rings. What does that tell us about the rings? And what does it maybe tell us about Talo in terms of like these nexus points across dimensions and across timelines? So it's fascinating to think about it. I had one other like the multiverse adjacent observation that I wanted to make

that is perhaps nothing, but not something that I could shake. The significance of, the way these souls look. It's well in our darkness, the soul eaters, as they are pulling the souls out, it looked to me incredibly similar to the way the timeline looks, incredibly similar,

the visual rendering, the mix of colors, the style, that almost like cloudy rainbow kind of effect. And I feel, you know, we, we, Dana Charles and I talked about the color coding of magic inside the MCU when we were breaking down the fourth what if episode and if there might be significance behind the presence of purple at the end of that episode.

This is something that, you know, Marvel fans and analysts, I think, talk about a lot. And it just feels like these choices are very deliberate whenever Marvel does something like this. So like, what might that mean? Is there some connection between souls and time? Like that, I can't not think about that after watching the most recent What If

with that, that devastating Dr. Strange arc and the connection between life and death and loss and anguish and meddling with time. It's like, are timelines, is it maybe just the almost poetic takeaway of that? You know, what is time? Time, it's the lives that we live and the way that they stitch together. I just thought that was a really interesting little detail and something that I'm excited to see if that bears fruit in the future. Yeah, no, that's, that's like a, that's a great point.

And it's actually, like, something that, like, I'll definitely be looking for when I see the third time, too, because that was actually something I didn't really think too much to it. But that's, it's a great point because especially, like, in what if, but also, like, in Loki, too, I feel like just the colors, like, you can really draw a lot. Like, there was a lot of discussion around, around just, like, the colors of, like, you know, like, Lamentus and, like, just, like, worlds in general in, and, and, like, it's always very purposeful on Marvel's part. So, like, yeah, I'm curious

how that ties into. But I'll check that out next to the next time I go see this movie again very soon. Get back to me. Let me know what you think. Let's talk for a few more minutes about the characters and about the themes

that are central in their arcs and a little bit about the potential future for each of them inside of the MCU. I would like to start with Wenwell. We have already gushed about, Tony Leung's performance, but it really was jaw-dropping. I know you agree based on what you already said today.

I think that this is an instantly iconic Marvel role and Marvel performance and that Wenwu is an instantly iconic Marvel villain, like top five without question. He is, you mentioned this earlier when you mentioned Kilmonger, I would also, you know, obviously all of these characters are very different in terms of the motivations, but when you, like, when I think about the Marvel villains who have stuck with me and found the most,

I think I've been the most impactful, they are so deeply human and using the word villain almost feels like an affront to the role that they play in the story. And so, like, I would put, I would put Loki, Kilmonger, Wenwu in that category. I think that on like a certainly much smaller scale, you could also put vulture in that group, maybe like the humanity is what drives them and makes them relatable. And even as they're doing horrible things

and makes you so drawn to them and you feel like you understand them so fully and are invested in them in a way that you are not with a flatter, less fully realized. villain. And I think that a few different things allowed Wenwu to instantly emerge as that kind of character inside of the MCU. Obviously, again, the performance is just a huge part of that because it is top tier, like flat out top tier. But also, in terms of, again, that larger assessment of the way the story is structured, he's present throughout the entire.

movie. This is so key to me. He's not just this shadowy presence that we build toward for a climactic battle like the Dweller in Darkness is in the movie. He is ever present and inextricable from the hero's journey and the fabric of the film. Because of that and because of the films focus on the family unit. So many of these really powerful themes are unlocked. Family, found family, identity, grief, pain, longing, purpose. Because Wenwu is so connected to our hero, to Shang-chi in such a deeply meaningful way, everything that he's doing and every decision that that he makes has ramifications for the rest of the film and the rest of the arcs. Like his power, his magic, his might, that is all awe-inspiring. But crucially, it's only,

it's only a piece. Like, it's only part of what makes him so compelling. His humanity is the main draw. The fact that he is driven by, such yearning. You know, the voice, like he is hearing his dead wife's voice, the person who changed his life, who made him want to live life differently, a loss that has defined him, he is hearing her from beyond this gate.

And everyone else knows that it isn't real, that it is a trick, that it is a deception. And this character who is, so powerful and strong and mighty. In so many respects, cannot see that because of his own pain. Like, that is just such a deeply human story. And that voice, it's his hope,

but it's also his torment. You know, it's his ring and his mordor. Like, it's his mirror of Ere set. It's the dream that he's dwelling on and forgetting to live. And that is just, that is the key. You know, he's not just a warrior. He is a person in pain.

and as such, even his missteps, as costly as they are, as devastating as they are, as wrong as they are, are in some way relatable and induce this anguish in us, I think much more ultimately than judgment. I think just having that opening scene, and just like that early part of the movie where it focuses on him just being so driven by power initially, but then how much his life has changed

when he actually, like, meets Ying Li and just his decision to actually give up that life and, like, focus on family. And you have, you know, these, these adorable scenes of them, like, watching movies, you know, and, like, doing, like, dance dance revolution and stuff like that. Like, it's, and it's just like. When he, like, reaches over to cover her eyes when they're playing dance dance, it's so great. Those little moments are priceless. Yeah.

And then just having that really crucial scene, too, where, where Yang Shang Chi comes up to him. And he's just like, you know, your mother was wrong. Like, I shouldn't have, you know, there was no way that I could leave my past behind and that, like, I should have just kept these rings on. And it's just, like, such a powerful moment where you, like, see that, like, villain element really coming out and, like, but also, like, understanding his, his anger and, like, the fact that he actually made this, this attempt to change. And I think just all of that just works, it works so well in ways where, like, when you, I don't know, when you think of, like, some of, like, the worst MCU villains, you know, like, somebody like Maliketh or something like that. Like, I don't even remember, like, I mean, it's so long ago, but like, I don't remember what, what he even wanted to do, you know? Maliketh me a curse. You talked a lot about darkness, Daniel, you know?

Really wanted the ether. Really wanted to blanket the universe in darkness. Again, like, with, like, vulture, like, you understand, like, where these characters are coming with. But I think it's also just the relationship that they have with the protagonist, too. And especially with Wenwu and Shang-chi, like, just. the bond and the dynamic and the tension that really plays out across the movie really builds up both of their characters

really well, where they're working in unison with making them both much more three-dimensional characters. And I remember reading like an interview that like Destin had where he was like talking about like Tony Leung and like, you know, he asked like Tony like about When Wu's character

and like whether or not he thought he loved his kids and like without hesitation, like Tony Leung was like yes. Yeah, that was in. Joanna Robinson's Vanity Fair piece, she had a really amazing quote from the director in there in which Cretton said, quote, I asked him in the middle of shooting whether he thought Wenwu truly loved his kids and he didn't hesitate. He said he has always loved his kids. He just has no idea how that was a really big epiphany for me. Great piece from Joe on the legend, Tony Leung. It's interesting to see how that really plays out across the whole movie and like I think they

just like do such a good job of like really focusing in on that relationship so well. It's such a great point because the tragedy of the character, and this is often the case with deeply tragic figures, is the impulse is not necessarily the thing that is misguided. It's the manifestation, right? And so if you compare two scenes or you think about two scenes in relation to each other, take the moment in the climactic showdown when Wenwu says to Shangxi you are afraid of me

and you always have been and how cutting that is in terms of like probing and working to exploit his own child's insecurities right? Yeah. And how really like foul that is. Yeah. And also that the the severity of the blow that he strikes

is in direct response. Not anything Shang-she says about himself or about Wenwu, but about how disappointed Lee would be in who he had become.

That's the thing that he cannot abide. Because if that's true, then what does anything that he's doing mean and what is it for? Contrast that. or think about it in tandem with that absolutely heart-wrenching sequence where when we was in his study and before he is interrupted by razor fist he is looking over at an empty space that used to contain so much love in life and he is so fully captured.

by that memory, by replaying that moment in time when they were all together, when they were guided not by their pain and their loss, but by their love and their unity, the acting from Tony Leong in that moment is like incredible. The look in his eyes, the absolute despair, it's not just, it's hopelessness. It's like, what is any of this for if I don't have that person to share it with? the ability inside of a two to change our movie to give us a character

who we do fear as our hero does but who we also have such deep empathy for in a moment like that is I think like an really incredible achievement great stuff

incredible you mentioned the dinner scene earlier but specifically in terms of the Mandarin rebuke I loved that moment so much and I felt like it was it was necessary to to like reference in

some way to like, I mean, just going back to the earlier discussion of like Fu Manchu, like the Mandarin really was just the Fu Manchu before Marvel had licensed the rights to the character because I mean, the Mandarin shows up in Tales of Suspense in like the 50s and he's very much

in like the same, it's cut from the same cloth and like really just kind of this this really like stereotypical mystical Asian Asian threat that that is like, you know, he has like the same type of facial hair and, and just, you know, the inhuman, like, yellow skin and the comics and all that. And, like, it was something that,

you know, Marvel eventually kind of went away in both respects. It's just been interesting to see, like, how DMCU kind of has been trying to address things like that. And I know we'll probably get into Trevor in a second, too, but, like, that was really important to mention on multiple levels in this movie. Again, just like talking about this specific dinner scene. Like, I loved the way that he's like kind of making fun of the American public sphere of an orange. You know, like making fun of the name of the Mandarin in particular. But it really feels like addressing like the comics and it feels like addressing,

especially when he's like, you know, talking about some of the plot deals of like the plot details of like Iron Man 3 and like how, you know, somebody came in and impersonated him. And then you have like Trevor's like direct apology almost, you know, talking about how, you know, he, he knows it was a, in hindsight, it was an unsavory portrayal of, of their father. And it's, it's, you know, it's kind of just like a meta, like a meta of a apology for, for the way that this happened, but also just a way for, you know, the Asian creatives that are reclaiming this story to also just like, you know, poke fun of, of the way that this was attempting. in the past and like how how poorly it was it was handled so it's it's it's it's really important to to have all that in mind with this character and like I think it really just goes to to like how awesome of a job they did and like really making him his his own and like kind of you know pulling elements from the mandarin like he still is using that like 10 rings that that that was what the

mandarin had in the comics as well but really doing it in a way that felt like unique to to the movie totally agree and I think that it's it's important as you said, for the MCU to, you know, own up to and then attempt to improve on and make good on the mistake. You know, some of that began with the all hail the king one shot back in 2014, but obviously the way that Trevor is deployed in this movie and that scene and that conversation in particular with Wenwu is, you know, it's crucial. do you think that we will see when we will in the MCU again? As you mentioned earlier, he dies in this movie. I'm going to talk about that moment from Shang Chi's perspective in a few minutes.

How can we see him again? Because I am frankly not ready and unwilling to accept the prospect that we might not. his fixed age while wearing the rings. Obviously, there's a portion of the story where he's not. But the fact that he is not aging, that he has this eternal life for so long while he wears them, I think leaves open a lot of room for some sort of prequel for exploring an earlier moment in his canon.

The origin story of the rings themselves felt, I think, clearly left, like intentionally, very vague. We don't get, you know, any precise details beyond the one line about, I mean, they have found them in a tomb. You know, there's so much that we have to learn about all of that. Now, maybe that will be something that we learn as Shang-Chi learns it in the continuation of his story.

But maybe there's room there for more of a Wenwu prequel of sorts. I think hopefully at a. minimum, we can get more flashbacks, more sequences with him in that respect. Or, you know, to go back to the multiverse, right? I mean, I would absolutely love any excuse to bring back Tony Leung's Wenwu in this, in this franchise, or just like I'm not ready to say goodbye. Yeah, I feel like, unfortunately, I feel like it is probably the last we'll see, but I could totally see at least like a cameo type like flashback again like like what you're saying i think i think that's probably especially just seeing the way they employ flashbacks in this movie if there is hopefully like

a sequel at some point um which i i can't imagine there won't be like i would love to see him at least back in some some form to really like be doing a similar kind of type of thing in flashbacks give it to us we're not ready to say goodbye uh let's talk about the the father-son dynamic a bit more as we chat a bit more about Shung-chi. The power of that relationship and that dynamic and the deafness of conveying that a shared loss does not necessarily manifest in a shared response.

You know, the way that they fork, the fork in their roads, it differs so greatly after their family has suffered this great tragedy is so fascinating to watch unfold. I think that the way that we glimpse the resentment that both of Wenwu's children

carry toward him, they wanted their father to be a father, to be a loving, supporting guardian, not someone to either train them to kill or ignore, right? and allowed to be overshadowed. And, you know, we get this moment where Sean She tells Katie that he's going to kill his father.

You know, he's got to pay a blood debt with a blood debt. And he thinks that this is what is necessary. But I don't think there's really a moment where we as viewers ever believe that that is what he wants, which is, of course, something important. And in that decisive moment when Dweller in Darkness

grabs Wenwu and And it is that final moment. You know, I agree with what you said earlier about feeling like, oh, no, is this, is this how he's going to go? Is this how this is going to happen? I'll tell you what I did like about it, though. When Wu chose to use that final moment, not to try to save himself, not to try to use the rings to overpower his foe and to move forward in his own life.

he chose to protect his child and save his son. Now, crucially, we have to note, of course, Shang-she had already won the rings from him at that point. He had taken control of them. He had earned them on his own, which I think is also just as important. But we needed that moment, and Shang-Chi needed that moment of closure with Wenwu.

And Wen-Wing needed it for himself, too. Like that moment of repentance at the end, of acknowledging that he had aired so deeply. and the way, again, that he just, he looks at his son, and as he's sending the rings forward, like closes his eyes in that final moment. It was like, a devastating. Yeah, it's a great moment, yeah.

Oh, my God. I mean, I think just, like, going back to, you know, how this character, like, Shang Chi really just came up in the comics. Like, you know, you could talk about the problems that they had with just, you know, establishing this character and the creation of them and, like, just the problem of nature of all of that. But the fact that they're, again, like that they're able to reclaim that dynamic and really just do such a great job of, like, establishing this, this such a complicated bond between the father and the son and just, you know, the pressure that that Shang Chi just feels throughout his life. And, like, we're seeing how he just kind of has been running from it the whole time.

And then it just brings it really altogether in a powerful way with, with him just, like, coming back to him, like, having to, like, finally face his family. like head on in very literal sense. So I thought they did a wonderful job of doing that. And it's like, it's really cool to see that being explored on the, like in the movies and like also in the comics too

with with like Shang Shi like coming to in Jing Yun Yun Yuniang's like comic series like trying to grapple with, you know, reestablishing his father's organization in a way where it can, you know, they can do something positive. Positive in the world.

Yeah. Absolutely. Speaking of positive forces in the world, Katie. The Shangchi, Katie Bond is such an interesting point of contrast to the Wenwu-Shangchi interaction because it is even in these really intense moments, these deeply introspective moments, these moments of like revealing something about yourself that you were deeply ashamed of to a person that you've known and cared about for a long time and who thought. knew you and how hard that is, it is tender and touching, but also just so fun and so sweet

and so relatable. It is like the kind of friendship and the kind of bond that can sustain so much storytelling around it because you just want to linger in that relationship, in those rooms, in those moments, in those conversations with those people. Aquafino was so great in this movie. I thought, as I was saying earlier, too, I just feel like the comedic chemistry that they have together is just so great throughout. Like, even in this really small moments where that I loved,

like, even in like, Ta Lo, as she's like going to pick up dragon arrows. Yeah. Shang-she's just like, you're going to get some dragon arrows there? You're going to... It's just like this, like, this, like... Yeah, that was great. ...relationship that they've built up over time. Like, it really, you can, like, feel that.

And, like, I think part of that, too, I mean, like the two actors had worked together in the past. Like, I think Simu made an appearance on Norfolk and Queens at some point. What did you think of the arrow shot? I was just going to ask you that. Katie's Uron moment, you know? Game of Thrones. Spoiler alert, I guess.

Multiple years after that episode. I would say that this is not the most popular moment in the movie, but I didn't mind it. I loved it, too, honestly. You know, I think that, all right, a couple of things. a couple points in Katie's defense here. One, yes, of course. She goes from training for the first time ever to striking a precise and essential blow.

But one, she did not kill the dweller, which I think is important. The siblings still had their work to do. And ultimately, it's the moment when Shang-she uses the rings to explode from within the dweller that the victory is decisive. The great protector is obviously crucial to the battle too. And so I processed it less as Katie killed the Dweller in Darkness. Katie slayed the foe and more like all of these characters found a way to work together. toward this common goal, which is like one of the points of the movie.

And so I thought that it was like thematically appropriate and apt in that respect. Also, this is key. She and the movie lean in to the absurdity of it a few moments later. When she was recounting this tale to sue to their friends, she's like, can you believe this? And I thought that that was necessary. And the fact that that conversation occurred, like made it all feel. a little more believable, frankly, to me.

I liked it. Let Katie thrive. Yeah, I mean, of course, like, it's totally ridiculous how good she gets it. But, like, I don't know, it was such a, especially seeing it the first time, too, like, the whole theater would just, like, uproar and applause.

Like, at this moment, it was awesome to see. Like, and it was great that, but her story gets that arc too, like that like like thematically too like because you like there's there's so much early on the discussion like with her mom but out she like can never like commit and like focus on something for her to like get that little moment to shine to without it like you know it would be one thing if she completely just kills this this dragon this final moment yeah you're right though it's like it's on the heels of that really potent moment of like if you if you aim at nothing you hit nothing right and so katie

like deciding i'm going to aim at something here i'm going to try that that was big i like i liked it a lot too Yeah. I am curious to see too, though. Like, I thought it was very funny that, like, she's being brought in with Wang, like, at the end, too. Okay, so let's talk about this. Let's talk about the, what are the MCU futures for both Katie and Shang Chi? Let's do Katie first. What do you think, in light of her being summoned alongside Shang Chi to meet with Wang and Bruce and Carol?

Do you ship them? Are you shipping Shang Chi and Katie, or do you want it to remain a friendship? I kind of like how it's a platonic thing. Like they've been friends for so long since high school. I had a feeling you're going to say this, Mal. I'm sure it'll shock everyone to hear. I ship it. I don't know.

I mean, they're just so great together. And it's like friendship is beautiful. If they remain friends, that's wonderful. But why can't friendship be the foundation for romance? There were some vibes. There was some vibes for sure. Yeah, yeah. Especially like after the big battle too.

When they run towards each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The hog and then the little like, little head nuzzle. It definitely crossed my mind for sure at some point as well. Well, I mean, I don't know. We'll be looking out for that in the future, I guess. Oh, yeah, I will be. Okay, so what do you think her future is going to be?

Is she joining, you know, Bruce says, like, welcome to the circus, right? Obviously, we can deduce that that means the, whatever the Avengers look like in some form. Is Katie going to be a part of that? Is she going to remain a part of Shang Chi's story, but not necessarily be a, a central part of these future team-ups. I mean, obviously, there's just so much that we don't know yet about the future of the MCU in that respect.

You know, we have all of these different factions and all of these different armies across the MCU at large that are, like, at play and that are on the map and some respect here. I don't know how Katie will fit into that. I'm honestly just excited to find out

because I think there are so many different possibilities with her character. Again, I like, I love Aquafina's, performance in this. I loved Katie as a character. Is she like a superhero now? Is like my quote? Like it's like, you know, she, she takes this shot, but like is she like, now is she like an expert archer? Like is she going to be with like, you know, Kate Bishop and Hawkeye now is like the elite archers of the Marvel Cinematic Universe? I don't know. I think because there's no real, at least that I'm aware of, like a parallel for this type of character in the comics. Like there's

really not too much to draw from, which is, I think, cool in itself, where, it's like you don't really know, and it's like they have space to really build up her character on her own. She's in a room with a lot of very powerful people. So it's like, and she's had like all three days of archery training. So what do you think about it?

I think you're right. I mean, we don't, we don't know and that's what's exciting about it. Like so much of what's ahead of us is just pure possibility. I love that. I think that with Shang Chi, there, we can maybe make more informed guesses, you know?

And I'm curious what you think about, like, how soon we will see him again. Is it, could it be as soon as the next movie? Could it be Eternals? Could it be Spider-Man? Could it be Dr. Strange? Like, I think we can, I'm sure we agree and can safely assume that however and whenever this next version of the Avengers assembles, he will not only be a part of that,

but will be a central focal point of that. But when does he return? Like, I hope we don't have to wait too long. That's always one of the dances inside of the MCU, especially now with so many new characters introduced, continuing so many characters from earlier phases and also building so many new stories. You don't, it can be overwhelming

if every time you get a new movie, it feels like there are 10 other franchises that have to be accounted for in some way. But you also like, you don't, I don't want to wait three or four years to see Shang Chi in a Marvel property again. I really, I mean, I do not think that's what will happen, but I really hope it's not what will happen. And I think that it's also like interesting to talk and think for a moment about the 10 Rings themselves. We'll talk about the 10 Rings the organization in a second here. But in terms of the objects. Like, what role are they going to play in the future of the MCU? They're updated and changed here from the comics.

You know, in the comics, they're finger rings, right? Worn on each finger. And each ring has its own unique power, its own color. Do the rings in the cinematic universe also each have distinct powers? It didn't seem like it necessarily in this movie, but we also don't know enough to say. Like, we have so much to learn. We know that they, they, the, the, the color was different.

You know, they're blue for Wenwu, their gold for Shang Chi. Well, what does gold make us think of? What do we associate that with now? Like, certainly the mystic arts, right? And the Dr. Strange franchise, but also just based on trailers and what we've seen so far, Eternals is, you know, like, let's talk for a minute about that, that mid-credit stinger and that, the beacon information. Like who, what, where are the Ten Rings calling?

What other aspect of the Marvel universe is this going to connect to and how soon? Because, again, I think like one of the most popular theories in the days since the film's release is that that will connect in some way to the Eternals, the deviants, the Celestials, right? The ancientness of this magic. Well, again, that could happen in a month and a half then. I mean, Eternals comes out in November. I'm not saying that is what will happen or when, but it's possible. do you have other leading theories for what the beacon might mean or indicate? I think Kang is another popular theory.

Could there be some sort of McLuhan, you know, alien tech connection, like in the comics? I would be surprised by that, given the, you know, intention to distance from comics canon here. But I don't know. What do you think? What's your theory here? Yeah. Like when that first stinger happens, like I think for me at least it was really just, I kind of received it as they're kind of nodding to this being a part of a bigger like multiverse like kind of implication type of thing where we're like we're going to see that explored at some point in the future. I am really curious to see.

I think Eternals is going to be extremely important both just connecting like, you know, obviously the past since they've been around like from the trailers we can tell that they've been around this whole time. and just kind of understanding their place in the world of the superhero universe, I think it probably will, whether in the form of like an after credits, really kind of show like what this next direction will be in terms of like a bigger, a bigger group. Like, you know, we have a blanking on his name, but, but Rob Stark, you know, in the trailer just talk like, like, like, yeah, Icarus, like, like joking about leading the, the Avengers in one of the trailers.

But it's like, you know, something there's. clearly nodding at. That's what makes me sure he won't be. Yeah, he's totally, he's totally not like the fact that everybody's just roasting him right after it. It's a funny moment. But it'll be interesting to see like if they actually like use that, whether in like the stinger for that movie to be setting up like what's going to be happening next because it's like,

it is interesting like the absence of the vendors like the name, like the use of the word when they have this because, you know, aside from just how incredible that the karaoke performances is there with Wong Katie and Shangxi the way they tie that together. I love that so much. It was interesting to it's so perfect. But just like seeing how like it was

it really felt like a like a soft like invitation to like you know the be Avengers to me or whatever like is going to be that whatever is going to be like the new iteration of that but also just you know like Bruce has that line like welcome to the circus like you know welcoming into this chaotic new world that they're

they're being welcomed into, like, and like, whatever, whatever shape that will be, like, it will, it will seem that, like, Shang-chi will be an integral part of it. And, like, what will happen with the rings? Like, that'll be cool to see, too. I know. I'm excited. It's also interesting to hear, like, the creative team behind the movie talk about what necessitated some of the change. Like, basically, they couldn't be too similar to the Infinity Stones and the gauntlet. So, you know, that's, I think, smart. but also like even the fact that that is a concern or was a concern and like a guiding influence, it does, it tells you a lot about just the magnitude of the role they might play, right?

Yeah. From the 10 Rings, the Objects to the 10 Rings, the organization, the second Stinger, what that might foretell about the role that Shang-Chi sister, Sha Ling might play moving forward in the MCU. Did you get second Shang-Chi movie foil vibes from that? Did you get Disney Plus series vibes from that? I mean, the Ten Rings as an organization have been in the MCU since the first Iron Man movie. So the promise of a more fully focused and realized role for the organization and, you know, under the new leadership and new vision, and, you know, this is, of course, on the heels of Shalding's journey in the movie

and this idea that if my father won't let me be a part of his empire, I have to build my own. And so now she's building her own by rebuilding his, what formal that take? Are there any clues maybe in the new, in the new comics

that we were talking about earlier that you think we can glean? What do you think? How is this going to play out? Yeah, I loved that she had the second stinger because I thought she was so great in the film,

like, like, Munger Zhang was, was so good. And, like, she's such a badass and, like, just, like, being able to see, like, a little bit, a little glimpse of her past, like, in going to the Golden Dagger's and, like, being able to see, like, this empire that she, she built, like, you know, from the age of 16. But also just, like, how after being, you know, overlooked for her whole life, even, like, when she comes back, you know, like, you know, when Wu says, like, show the girls to their, to their room. And it's, like, so dismissive. and how she's bringing that experience,

but also the experience that she had when she went to Macau to build her own empire and bringing that to her own version of it. And it was something that I wrote a little bit about in the piece that I wrote for the ringer today, just in how, like, I thought it was interesting the phrasing of the message at the very end, you know, that the 10 rings will return

and not like Shangxi will return. And like it would be really cool to see like if they actually like explore her and the Ten Rings, like her modernizing it in a potential Disney Plus series, but something that I wrote about

as well, and like, to your point with, like, connecting it to the comics, like, in In Jean Lung Yang's series, Shang Chi's,

like, he has multiple sisters in this series, but he did have one that he was like really close to growing up. Shehwa, who's also a sister hammer,

she basically takes over for their, she takes over for the organization and she like tries to like ramp it. up. And like, like that that confrontation that they have in that comics, I think is a really cool element that they could explore in a potential sequel for this movie where she becomes the antagonist, but also just her grappling with her own, like her own experience growing up in the shadow of Shang Chi too and in her, in their father's eyes. And just the ways in which

she's like really built all this like on her own. I think there's so much potential story telling that they could do there, that would be really, really cool. Yeah, I would love to see them explore that too. I love in that comic arc the way that the, the way that the, I won't get into like too many spoilers here, but just broadly, the way that scars function as not only like a reminder of the past, the way that we typically think about a scar, but like a guide towards something in the, in the future and clarity and intention. That would be, that would be really great.

I'm curious what you think about this. Do you think that the movie successfully balanced presenting her resentment and her pain over being overlooked, being cast aside, with in essence, as present as she is, in essence, in some ways, needing to do the same thing in the actual movie, because it's Shangxi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. Like, how did you think the movie handled that? Which is a difficult thing to need to navigate. Yeah, yeah. I think it is a really challenging thing to navigate. And, like, just, again, like, just the difference of having these, like, TV shows now where you have, you know, like, eight episodes that you can tell a whole, yeah, you have so much time that you can spend with each individual character.

And, like, we don't get, like, again, like, I would love to see more of her. because I think they do a really good job of just that whole element of the backstory that you see in Macau. And like when it shows like her flashback before she just like kicks him in the face. Like I love that moment. Just like the way that she really felt abandoned by by Shang Chi. Yeah. Yeah. Like I thought that they they nailed moments like that.

And even in smaller exchanges like between between her and Katie. And like it's, I think that that post credit scene. did a lot of work towards like kind of building upon that more. But I would have liked to see a little bit more of her thought process. And then it's why I think hopefully that it's going to be something we'll see in the future, but like why she is now rebooting it and like what she actually intends to do. Because clearly like she at the end of this whole battle sequence at the movie, she was prepared to just be like, all right, like you got to let me go right now.

And like she's helping to save the world in this sense. So it's like there is obviously still good in her as well. So I think she's a fascinating character that they can explore a lot more in the future. Yeah. I think that also feels like true to life. No, I've never been a superhero. But to be able to simultaneously have that beautiful, well-earned moment where they are riding together on the Great Protector and fighting together in tandem to rectify. the things that they have both been working against,

and then for their paths to diverge from there. Like, that just feels like a natural thing. Like, people are not always in lockstep. And one of the, like, eternal challenges that superhero stories face, Jason and I used to talk about this on Bidjo at all the time, it's, these characters are not, not just within families or siblings,

but like, Iron Man and Copt in America, what better example do we have? They're not necessarily, like, inclined to work together and agree. You know, these are often very solitary paths and existences. And so these moments when people come together and then these moments when they might end up finding themselves opposed. And again, who knows if they'll be opposed?

Maybe they won't be. But to see her, like working to build her own thing when that had been how she lived her life felt right. Like, I'm glad that they had this breakthrough together and fought together and have hopefully been able to repair their relationship. But it wouldn't have felt right if she was then just like, cool. I'll tag along with you now. Like, that's not who she is, nor should it be.

So I'm excited to see what she builds with her new army. So it's very exciting. Let's talk about Trevor for a couple minutes. You know, we talked obviously earlier in the episode about, excuse me, we talked earlier in the episode about the way that this movie and the way that Trevor's role in this movie addresses and rebukes and rebukes. and rebukes, Iron Man 3, much of Marvel past.

Aldrich Killian, escaping mention or blame. Obviously, he's dead. But, Aldridge, we have not forgotten. You know, there's also that

we're going to talk about Easter eggs in a second, but we see an extremist powered being the golden dagger. So that's one more extremist, one more, Iron Man 3.

Yes. appeared to be fighting a widow, so fighting one more connection there with extremists to Iron Man 3, which was notable. I had no idea going into this movie that Trevor was going to play the role that he played. I knew that Ben Kingsley was in the movie because, you know, he was like on the red carpet and you see him in photos and everything. So I wasn't tracked to see him, but I was floored by the extent of his role. And I will say I was delighted by it. It's just, An iconic showing from Ben Kingsley, he delivers so many laughs in this movie from the just sheer absurdity of the reveal. And he's talking about Macbeth.

And he's got like, I think he has like a Henry the eighth. Pat pam flip behind him. He's just like literally draped and surrounded by these Shakespearean relics. and, you know, talking about being an actor, and he has the Liverpool scarf, and he puts it over his face when he thinks they're going to die and says, Mommy, I'm, you know, going home. And then we get that little payoff of the, you know,

there's a football match, of course, playing in one of the scenes in Iron Man 3, but then we see in Talo that he's teaching the kids to play football. And just so many Trevor moments that made me laugh. obviously the Trevor Morris Bond. I got to say, I would have taken the over on like 45 minutes of Morris talk today. I'm shocked that we haven't talked about Morris more. I adored Morris. Morris is one of my favorite things in a long time.

What a wonderful, wonderful, magical creature and a wonderful character. I love Morris. I love the bond between Morris and Bruce. Trevor and I hope that Morris is around for a long, long time to come. What did you think of Trevor? And did you have a favorite Trevor moment? I thought it was incredible. Like, like you, like I really had no idea that he was going to be like, my first

indication of it too was just seeing like Ben Kingsley on the red carpet. I was like, oh my God, is he actually like going to be used in this movie? And to see him, I mean character in the movie. He's a major part of the third act of this movie. And like, I thought it was just so, so great, the way they were. were able to repurpose this character so well from Iron Man 3, because it was obviously a very controversial choice at the time. So rather than trying to make the efforts to recreate this problematic character

from the comics to just basically do a spoof of him, I feel like it didn't really, I don't know. I mean, I haven't seen Iron Man 3 in a while. I remember not being a huge fan of it at the time, and I think they didn't really land a lot of things. But the way that he kind of reemerges in this, movie, especially with the setup of all hail the king, I felt like it just worked so well as just being self-referential for the MCU in terms of that previous choice,

but also just like him just being like this guide to get them in with Morris too. Like so funny. Like my favorite moment I think was when you see him in battle like on the ground, like you think he's dead for a second. That's my too. It was so great. I think like, because like Morris is like just like, you know, like hitting him, like thinking that he's, he's then.

He's like, hey, mate. Like, relax. And then Morris just keels over next to him. Like, it was, it was so great too because at the beginning of the battle, like, you see Trevor in line that was like, is Trevor about a fight? And then just like for them to circle back to him. Certainly not. No, he is not fighting. Like I thought they.

Just for Trevor, it's just one more performance. One more performance. One more performance. Exactly. Yeah, obviously the Planet of the Apes conversation, which I'm sure I talked about was hysterical. I loved the soccer match moment too, but yeah, that's my favorite moment as well. Just the Morris pawing at him with real worry and concern.

And then Trevor just pop it up and like, man, I'm acting. Get down here with me. The way he calls him mate, it's just great. We've talked about the Great Protector a little bit. I think that, you know, again, the Dweller and Darkness didn't do a ton for me. That was just that character was like one of the weaker points. And I do think it's interesting to note that in the comics, the Dweller and Darkness is a fear lord and connected to nightmare. And Dr. Strange fans have been waiting for nightmare for a very long time.

And we got a nightmare call out in Loki. I don't think that's accidental. Like, I feel like we're moving close. and closer toward the inevitable nightmare introduction. And comic ties to the deviance as well, right? So that could connect back to the earlier speculation about the beacon and whether there might be some sort of eternal, deviant, celestial connection there.

I did love the Great Protector, though. I mean, that was majestic. It's also, we should note, this was not ultimately Finn Fang Fum, which people thought it might be, based on the trailers, this was better. This was definitely better. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I love just being, like that first moment where you step into Talo, I thought is so great and just like seeing all these mythical creatures around them. Like I wish we could have seen a little bit more of just this world that we like didn't get too much time with. And like, again, with being non to like, I love that training sequence that we get with between the two of them. with Michelle Yo. It was just awesome, like, the way that, like, they,

they kind of just made sure to weave in, like, Chinese culture in this, in this way, like, and, you know, just, like, with, you know, paying, paying respects to the lost family members, especially with, like, you know, the, lighting up the, the lanterns at the end and all that. Like, I thought that was all, like, like, very beautifully done. Yeah, that was lovely. And so was, so was the idea and the rendering of the great protector gifting the people of Telao.

with her magic, with her dragon scales, and the way that they have, you know, literally armed themselves in this protection, but also in their culture and in their tradition. That was, that was so lovely. Did you have a favorite Easter egg in this movie

before we get to the mailbag? Or a favorite cameo? It's got to be Cleve, right? The bus, in the bus scene, vlogger Cleve. Clive was hilarious. The hot dog vendor from Spider-Man Homecoming,

who, of course, asked Peter to do the backflip. you know, crucially talks to him about YouTube and now your Cleve is out there vlogging. It all connects, man. It was a great continuation of that. And I think like a really just funny part of what was one of my favorite scenes in the whole movie. That's definitely up there. I thought it was cool just to see like the widow, like fighting in the pits.

Abomination, I thought was a very interesting choice. We've got a mailbag question coming on abomination. So hold on to that for one minute. because we have some theorizing to do. Yeah, yeah, it was a choice. The posters in Shang Chi's room, you and Sean talked about that. He spotted all of those. Yeah, yeah, Sean spotted all of those.

And like watching it the second time, like, I was looking out for it. And I was like, yeah, it was cool to see that. Like, there are a lot of nice little Easter eggs like that. Wong ended up having, like, kind of a big role if you include, like, just coming back in the end and like just like with the post credit scene too. But I just loved that they were able to bring him in for this movie. one that's like really celebrating just like the fact that this is like the first like Asian led movie and like having like the most you know prominent Asian character in the MCU before

that being able to come back in a way and especially like in the end of it like with with him like bringing them into this this bigger world I thought was like such an awesome way to a way to bring him into it. Well said Daniel. Let's dive into the mailbag. All right, it's time for the mailbag. And of course, it wouldn't be a mailbag if we didn't open the portal to welcome in, Jomea Denneron. What's going on, Mel, Daniel? It's been a minute since I've been on here doing a mailbag. It's been too long. I know. But crucially, you still have your Tom Holland Zoom background up to commemorate our victory in midnight court. Hey, you know, I, you know, I taught them on that on their podcast, you know, they call me the Kyle Kuzma,

the Dwight Howard. But that's cool. I'll still take a ring. You feel me? We still won. You know what I'm saying? Championship squad. It was genuinely a privilege

to be in midnight court with Van and Charles. Charles's closing arguments have rightly earned accolades across the internet. Absolutely. Vans energy and spirited debate were memorable.

I cherish the experience. It was an absolute joy. I can't wait to do it again. I just, I love the ring of verse team. They said they want to run it back. They want to do, you know, every midnight court between me and you and Van and Charles. I was all with it. You know, champions need an offseason, so.

Yeah, well, the Lakers only got 71 days in the offseason. So we need that, you know, that the maximum, you know, allotment of time instead of, you know, the short off season. Need like the 190 days everybody usually gets. First question comes from George Mon 25. Why are Wong and the Abomination homies? This is a great question. Daniel, you wanted to get into Abomination a few minutes ago. What did you make of this?

What might this indicate about not only abomination's role in the future of the MCU? You know, we know that abomination has been in prison since the events of the Incredible Hulk has been in the vault. We know that abomination is supposed to be in. in the Disney Plus show, She-Holk. You know, Emil is back. Emil Blonsky is back. Where do we think they went when Wong opened the portal and they walked through?

It's not going back to the vault, somewhere else. Why does Wong appear to be training abomination and coaching abomination up? What is this union about and what might it foretell? Yeah, I was very fascinated by this going into it. just especially because we get a see pretty prominent shot of him in the trailers that I feel like everybody reacted very strongly to when it came out.

And even after seeing the movie, I'm still like just as confused. Like it was interesting for me to just like with Bruce Banner showing up again in that first post-credit scene in human form and just knowing that both him and Abomination are going to be appearing in She-Hulk, like you said,

as to why he's, necessarily with Wong. Like, I'm not exactly sure. I'm curious what you guys think. Like, it did look like to me, like, a similar, like, the background of, like, what they were going into looked very similar to what Shang Shi and Katie are also stepping into.

So I don't know if it's necessarily just bringing him right back to where he was, you know? I mentioned this on the Midnight Boys, but there was an interesting thing happened on the way to Thor's Hammer. Agent Colson was talking, you know, to someone I can't remember who was talking to somebody about the abomination being part of the

Avengers initiative, right? And so I think this is like a continuation of that. We see Bruce is not Smart Hulk or Hulk. He's just a dude in a sling. I made the joke that like, you know, because, you know, they didn't have the CGI for it, but maybe it also serves a narrative purpose in terms of they don't have the Hulk. They don't have that big brawler, you know, I'm saying anymore. And so Blonsky's there. He could take that spot, you know, of the Hulk that they might need because Carol might be out doing other things. They need another heavy hitter. Interesting. I would advise people against trusting Blonsky as just like a life rule.

It's one of mine. At least everyone should make their own choices. But that's an interesting larger point because I could see that, but also I would be a little surprised if they took Bruce back to basically like a Ragnarok state where he's not, I don't know, that would feel like a regression for his character. though obviously him moving in and out of states of harmony with, you know, the Bruce Hulk internal relationship is always a part of his character. But also then with She-Hulk coming, you know, do you need an abomination? If you've got She-Hulk, that's interesting too. But again,

even with any of that, what role does Wong play in terms of training abomination? That's the part that I'm like, if Thunderbolt Ross were behind it, I'd say, yeah, of course. Yeah, I was, I was definitely caught up. I was caught up in that too, because, like, you have that nice little moment of them, like, in the background and just, like, say, you know, like, giving him feedback on his performance and stuff. It was, like, very funny for the movie itself, but. I told you.

I told you, Amelia, you're punching too hard. Like, that was the other thing that clearly indicated this is ongoing. Like, this is something that they have been undertaking for presumably some time towards some end. it's interesting. There was some Val Thunderbolt speculation from Charles on Midnight Boys, right? Yeah, yeah.

I think, well, because remember, the Mr. Gargs don't pay well, Juan couldn't afford a tuna mill. Right? So, you know, he's got to, you know, pick up the check somewhere. You know, you got to get that deli food money somewhere, you know?

So, hey, you know, whatever it takes, right? It's not soup, Mal. It's not soup. It's a tuna melt, you know? It costs a little more. more money, you know what I'm saying? I love sandwiches and I love soup. I love all sorts of food stuffs.

I'm eager to see how this one plays out and when we get the answer to this. I'm very interested to see what about because you guys mentioned it early in the podcast. Wong's just all over the place between the Spider-Man trailer and this. So I'll be interested to see, you know, in the longer probably in Dr. Strange, Multifference Madness, what is Wong up to? That's a ways away. Can't wait. give us as much long as possible.

All right, what do we got next? Question two comes from Kelliano Wesley. After the surprise appearance of Trevor and Shang Chi, what other early MCU villains or side characters would you like to see reappear in future Marvel movies? Wow, what a great question. I think that part of the brilliance of Trevor's return, the way that Trevor is deployed in this movie,

is that it was a like total shock. You never would have anticipated it. And even if you had anticipated that he would be present or accounted for in someone, you never, you never would have predicted the extent of it, right? Or his role.

So it's almost hard to answer the question because the thing that made it work is that you couldn't have anticipated it really or like planned on it. All that said, I'm going to stick within the Iron Man franchise for my pick. And I am going to go with Obadiah Stain's Ironmonger. Wow.

Tony! The MCU built this multi-on a Disney Blush show. Why not? You know? Shouts to Jay and one of his all-time best binge mode impressions. I just loved the Stain voice so much. Why can we not get? An Obadiah's stay invariant of some sort,

this just feels like something we deserve as Marvel fans. I really want this. That's the thing. Like the variant possibility almost, it opens up this question in a completely different way because everybody can come back in some capacity, everyone. So if we want to really maybe stick to the spirit of the exercise, I assume it's like who from our universe could come back

and then that would be difficult with characters who are, you know, no longer with us. But I'm opening it up because we're in the multiverse now. not. What about you guys? I'm rocking with my, I'm staying in the Iron Man universe too. And I'm rocking with my boy, Justin Hammer. Bring back Hammer Time. I'm here. We know he's alive. I'll hell the king one shot. He was in prison, right? So bring my boy back. You know, I need some more that footwork, you know, dances to the music. Yeah, that's my guy. That's my pick. We need them. Need some more Sam Rockwell. Bring him home. I love it.

It was very fun revisiting that one shot and his very sneaky cameo on that. Like it's so funny. It's great. For me, I was thinking about this, it would definitely be a very minor character and I think connecting to a larger thing, Helen Cho from Ultron.

Because if we're sticking with this whole Hulk universe, you know, if they ever actually bring in like her son, Amadeus show. Yeah, Madeus show. Great one. That would be, I mean, I would love to see them to actually like integrate that character into this. And because like she like had such a minor role in that,

like if I actually could build up something larger for her, I think that would be really cool. Amadeus Cho. That's a great pick. Yeah, I would, I would love to see him in it too. Like little teenage son, little young Avengers start.

What? What? Bring it all the way back. All the way back. I love to see it. All right. Our last question comes from Courtney Serino. Who would your ultimate MCU karaoke team be?

And what song would they sing? mine would be cap, Bucky and Sam sing in America by Neil Diamond L.O.L. That's a great one, Courtney. That's good.

That's a great question. That's good. All right. I want to give a shout out here to T.D. Because when we left the Ringervverse, L.A. screening,

we were all talking about how much we enjoyed the movie. But T.D. raised the excellent point. You got to let Wong sing Beyonce. A karaoke. Got it. Like this is a established canon. So I would want to see that.

Credit to TD for pointing that out. I think that's something we need. I do have a couple other nominations, though. This may be a recency bias, but I don't think so. I just really, really loved this. I would want to sing American Pie with Alexi and Yelena. I just loved the usage,

the two American Pie scenes in Black Widow so much. And I would really love to, frankly, just witness them sharing that together. But to be able to share it with them would just be so special. And then because, you know, we're thinking about fathers and sons a lot today. Just going to throw this out there. This might be a little tense in the room. But, you know, if Quill and Ego wanted to sing Brandy together, who am I to say no? That's beautiful.

There's so many considerations for this question. because music plays such a central role in the MCU. There are like hundreds of good picks for this. But what are a few on your short lists? One of the ones that I definitely thought of immediately, which would be, I guess, somewhat of a meta choice for the MCU if Rocket came in and sang Shallow. Have Bradley Coole.

Holy shit, Daniel. Reprising his role, but you got Rocket doing it. Oh, my God. Wow. I would love to see it. I would love to see it. That's absolutely incredible. Now, who he's doing the duet with?

I spent a long time trying to. Yeah, that's the question. I feel like they're so... I would love to see, like, Rocket, like, spend some time on screen with, like, Valkyri. I don't know why. I feel like they got, like, great energies, and especially just thinking of, like,

Valky and, like, Ragnar Rock, I feel like they'd have a very funny conversation. And, like, Tessa Thompson could sing, like, you know, she was singing in Creed. Incredible. I would love to sing the John Denver song. I know the title. I know the title.

He has two songs, the one that we all know. Take me home. Take me home. Country Road. There it is. I know that song. Me and Thanos.

Come on. Let's get Thanos in there. Right. Oh, God. You know. And that's only for like one session. My other session is going to be me, Shuri, Black Panther, you know,

a, Sam, you know what I'm saying? Valka, we don't get in there. You know, we're going to go early 2000s R&B, you know, Ashanti, Usher, Neo, all the hits, you know what I'm saying. You know, but, you know, that's the big party one, you feel me. But I need to see me and my guy, Danos, do a little, little, you know, country song, you know, take me home country roads. I feel like it's in his wheelhouse and he's got that deep baritone voice, you know what I'm saying, to go against my, you know, like compared to his, you know, light, you know, you know,

alto, you know what I'm saying? So yeah, you know, we can rock it. I was going to pick somebody to do a duet with Breaking Free with me, but I honestly, I don't know who in the MCU could match, you know, because I do Gabriela, so I don't know who could do a Troy

in the Breaking Free, you know, duet. You know, I just couldn't find anybody. I thought about this a lot. I put a lot of thought to this question. I wanted to know. incredible. I'm so excited to return to this one after more installments. Just make a running list. Maybe we'll make a record together one day here at the Ringerverse. Hey, Ring Reverse records. What's going on?

I love it. A single coming to you, you know, never, but we'll see. Who knows? All right. That was really fun. Thank you, as always, for the wonderful questions from all of the Ring Reverse listeners. Thanks, Jomey. Always. Well, friends, we could be responsible and wrap the podcast. or we could go to karaoke before we do. Thank you, time. Thank you to our dweller in Podness, Steve Allman, for producing today's episode. Thank you, as always as well.

To our resident soul leaders, Arjuna Ramgapal and TD St. Matthew Daniel for their production work on this episode. And thank you to the Lord of the Memes, Jomi Adon, for his work on the social for this episode. And of course, thank you. you to everyone's favorite beacon hunter, Daniel Chin, for joining me today. Remember to follow the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the Ringerverse across our social feeds. Follow Daniel on Twitter. Daniel loves to tweet. And head back into the Ringerverse this Wednesday

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