The Ringer-Verse - 'Andor' Episode 10 Deep Dive, Plus Toby Haynes | House of R

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

We have made our pod a sunless place! But it is full of great discussion on the latest episode of 'Andor,' including some of the best 'Star Wars' content to ever exist! (09:55). Later, Ben Lindbergh joins to discuss some of the best speeches in 'Star Wars' history, and what makes a great speech (90:26). All before an illuminating chat with episode director Toby Haynes about this magnificent episode of television (02:07:31). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Guest: Ben Lindbergh Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We know that no one outside here knows what's happening. And now we know that when they say we are being released, we are being transferred to some other prison to go and die. And that ends today right now. The building is ours. You need to run, climb. Kill! You need to help each other.

You see someone who's confused, someone who's lost, moving until we put this place behind us. We can fight half as hard as we've been working. We were at home in another time. Fired me. It has inspired all of us. Thank you, Keeneloy. We are here. It's House of Our.

It's House of Our time. I'm Joyner Robinson. Joining me. Now that she is, you know, like walked down a scary catwalk that goes nowhere with her cloak flapping in the breeze. It is my house of our working title. Go host, Mallory Rubin. Joe, if this is a trap, press the buttons for 215. If it's trap, it's already too late.

Here we are. We're a little scattered, but mostly really freaking jazz to talk to you about an incredible episode of television. Possibly one of the best Star Wars things that has ever existed. We are loving Andor. We're here to talk about Andor. Before we get into Andor, you got to do a little business. Quick little business program your reminders. Big week here on the Ringervverse big week.

The Midnight Boys, Poo Poo Poo! Of course, have their. and or reaction already up. That is fantastic. Loved what they had to say about this episode. They will also have, by the time you're hearing this, a Wakanda Forever reaction episode up. So double Midnight Boys for you this week.

What a treat. Poo-Pew! Yeah. Then here's us doing this Andor reaction. And then Monday, we'll have our Wakanda Forever reaction. And then on and on it goes with Andor into the future. So that is the way of seeing. Only two Andors left after this.

Devastating, honestly. Mali, if anyone wants to send their like condolences for the fact that we're almost done with Andor, where should they, how can they reach us? Oh, you can send us your emails at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. And send us those emails about anything that we're covering. Anything at all. Andor or otherwise. And keep them coming after this run into all future runs.

We want to hear from you now and always. We are here very specifically, of course, to talk about one way out. the and or episode. We will be talking about all things Star Wars is on the table. Rogue One, ever heard of it? It's a movie. This is a prequel to that movie. We're going to talk about it.

A book, a comic book, a video game, definitely the animated series. All of those things are on the table in terms of things we might talk about today. We also have, not only will Ben Lindberg be joining us later for a great little chat about Star Wars speeches, we also have an interview with Toby Haynes, who directed this episode,

the two episodes that preceded it and the first three episodes of the season. So six entire episodes across the season, half of the season of Andor, directed by Toby Haynes. Fantastic director. So had a nice old chat with him. That will be at the end of the podcast as well. And then just like, let's clear the decks a little bit with two bits of business left over from last week. Number one, we got 101 emails from people asking us why we didn't talk about Count Rougan from the Princess Bride. when we were talking about Dr. Gorse and his sort of friendly, detached, scientifically inquisitive approach to torture.

Mallory, now that they say it, do you see it? Like, how are you feeling about that comp? Yeah, I like it. I dig it. It makes me want to go revisit one of my favorite films that I haven't seen in years, but used to watch every other weekend when I was a kid for like a while. Pretty good stretch of my youth. Genuinely classic Mallory Rubin behavior, honestly.

And then a little Carn Corner update. We talked a lot about Cyril Carin. So Carin is not in this episode, but I'm going to find a way to talk about him anyway. We had a nice chat with Ben about sort of the archetype of Cyril Caron, but I have since heard not only via emails and tweets and whatever from people, but also conversations that I've had with people who, like, work in the industry. And when they're talking about this character, a lot of people seem to want to put him in a sort of, mentally unwell, potentially lethal person, a la Travis Bickle from taxi driver,

or I've also heard the Joker from Todd Phillips, The Joker. So we got this email from Sean, who wrote, when Cyril showed up outside the ISB to confront Deirdre, and I've also settled on a pronunciation for Deidre, and I will be consistent with it. The ISB to confront Deidre.

I cannot help but think of Bickel, stalking Betsy at the campaign office. I think this connection between the two characters is important because it may hint at where Cyril's arc is headed. If Cyril ends up being Bickle-like figure, then it makes him a free radical within the otherwise tidy good versus evil story structure of the Star Wars universe. As this kind of chaos agent, he is the perfect catalyst to make the pot finally boil over, whether that is because he's set out into the events as Didera's monster on a leash or acting independently on his own obsessions. I think this would be a perfectly

fitting end for the character that is sycophantic pursuit to serve fascistic world order would end up leading to individual radical action that throws the empire into turmoil, an open rebellion. It's the culmination of his already established pattern of letting his compulsive behavior get in his own way and frustrate his desires. This also ties into the final theory you discussed. Say Cyril's version of taxi driver's final act is the assassination of Luthen. Perhaps that's the final straw that galvanizes the rebels to finally form the alliance that will eventually topple the empire. It just fits. Mallory, are we, are we going to, are we going to see a mirror scene with Cyril Karn? It's not going to me sort of thing. What do you think? It's maybe. Will there be

blue milk and cereal involved in this version of it who can say? I've been thinking a lot about the serial kills Lutheran theory that you floated last week. And I, I really like it. I think that that would work quite well and be a very tidy way for these different plot threads to stitch together and lead us to that next point.

Obviously, in terms of like the boiling over idea, you know, we just had a massive prison break inside of this episode and previously had the garrison attack and credit theft on Aldani. So I think we've got a few pots boiling over already. And how much more can, the range take?

How do ovens and stove tops work? I don't do a lot of cooking. When you said range, I thought about Yellowstone. So that's where my mind is. Boy, speaking of a great TV back in our lives. Yellowstone season. Speaking of other TV, I mean, I just want to flag because we actually got a couple emails about this to Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com.

If you're unaware, Mallory and I are actively covering the crown. We got people asking us to cover the crown on the record. Guess what we're doing it. Just on a different feed. If you go to the PrestiH TV podcast feed, Mallory and I have multiple episodes breaking down this new season of The Crown for your listening pleasure. So House of Our, House of Windsor, United over on the Prestige TV podcast feed. But, yeah, Lutheran kills, or Cyril kills Lutheran,

and especially on the heels of this phenomenal speech that Stellan gives at the end of this episode, it feels like the speech of someone who might not be in season two. I agree. This feels like a one-season character arc. And in that one season, it will stand as one of the great performances and pieces of Star Wars canon in our 45 years of consuming this. That's where we are with Luton right now. Just unbelievable stuff.

I agree with you. So we're going to get to Luton, obviously. We're going to get to the prison break. But let's start in our deep dive here. Let's start with Mon Mothba, because this is sort of a contained section that takes place elsewhere in the storyline. I have a quick question for you.

I just want to circle back to the only three people know about this comment that Mon made a couple weeks ago, and we were wondering if maybe Bill Argonne was surely one of them. But I'm wondering if we add up the people, and we've got already Luthen and Clea, and then we add Vell to the mix? Are those the three people? Like, how, in what world could Bail not know about this?

Do you know what I mean? Like, what do you think? I definitely think it's possible, given how fractured the different factions of the budding Rebel Alliance are at this point, obviously, as best illustrated by the conversation between Luton and Saw. You know, there's this relationship between Bail and Mon in particular and, like, the ties of history there that I think make Bail a very long. logical candidates still from the Mon perspective, more so than the overall state of that group.

It could be Vell. I think the fact that Vell was so reluctant to tell Mon anything, though, about what she had been up to, makes it seem unlikely to me. Like, I think they're just really keeping their respective tasks and details. Obviously, they know that they are in this together. They talk about the VAL. There is an understanding and shared recognition of the work and the mission and the pursuit. But in terms of like the particulars at play at any given moment,

I actually think the fact that it would of course be known that their family actually means like probably they know very little about what the other person's up to at a given moment in time. Who knows? Bill Organa. Still in the mix. I don't know why I said organa like that. Organa. All right.

Speaking of Star Wars name, we meet Davos Golden. Yes. Played by Richard Delane. Wild week for us with Stephen Delane's brother. and Mallorida were just talking about him about he's in the crown. Amazing. Stanis Barathian's brother, not Renly, but Richard Delane is having quite the week on being on both and or in the crown at the same time. Davos Golden, something that we were thinking about talking about with Ben that we're not going to talk about, but like the history of mobsters and Star Wars and how I think it's so interesting that like, and this is something Tony Gilroy gave a great interview over in The Watch with Chris and Andy.

if you haven't listened to that, I really recommend you go listen. But one of the criticisms that he addressed, if you want to call it a criticism, is, you know, some people are like, hey, why aren't there more non-humanoid characters in this Star War? And so, you know, Ben and I were talking off pod about this idea that, like, in most other Star Wars media, this would probably be a hut, you know? Like, usually a gangster is a hut. But it's just a guy, Davo. It's just a Shenrylans, Davos Golden.

So I don't know. Do you have any feelings about the lack of non-humanoid characters? Or how are you feeling about it, Mallory? Not strong feelings. I mean, I also, I think it's a valid observation, certainly. And I also, I think certainly, like, in a sequence where you're going through, like, many levels of Corrassant, working your way down into the lower depths. And you would just be accustomed in an episode of Clone Wars, for example.

you know, as Assoca is plumbing the depths on a mission to just see like so many different species. Like the fact that that isn't happening in the show is that's definitely just true. I thought it was interesting, like you said, to hear Gilroy talk about it on the watch. I don't really have like a strong feeling about it. I always love to see many different planets and people and learn about the cultures of Star Wars. That's something that I generally love. And I think overall in the focus of Andor, like, it would make sense to me to feature numerous different types of beings

because, like, that's of a piece with the idea of, like, forging fellowship and community and building that alliance. So I think that that's something that we should, like, expect to see in season two. And it's like... That was sort of the indication from Tony, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, it isn't like, you know, there's no non-humans on Arcina 5 that we've seen.

Usually they're part of the background, part of the furniture, sort of, we saw someone Neimos, the beach in Neimos or, you know, Lonnie's descent into the bowels of Corrosan. We see, like, a bunch of, like, critters on the side, but, but, you know, no main characters. Anyway, Davo. What do you think about this guy, Mallory? How are you feeling about Thavos Golden? I just love that his last name begins with an S so that even though it is D-A-V-O, I can pretend it's Davos. Okay.

And think of my dear Onion Night. Yeah, Onion Night would never, though, you know? No. No, certainly not. He would absolutely hate this guy. Absolutely hate this guy. Fascinating character, incredible scene. You know, this episode is such an astonishing installment of television

and obviously includes this like historically riveting prison break and keynote speech and or sequence and then has really like the scene of the season and one of the best scenes and speeches in Star Wars history with the Luth and Lonnie ending. And so it's easy to overlook a scene like the Mondavo-Tay conversation. But I think scenes like this are really what make Andor hum

and what make it so fully realized and layered and special that every character is confronted with the reality of the choices that they make and has to really like, we have had such an interesting time, I think, on the pod, and fans who are watching the show have had such an interesting time talking about like the cost analysis of waging this rebellion and what is necessary. And are you comfortable with that? Are you able to make your peace with that? And like, I think Mon has been such a fascinating character to unlock that because she often isn't

and often hasn't been. And when that is made so personal for her inside of this conversation, in such a, like, gross and slimy way, well, your discomfort, like a drop, that drop of discomfort line, that's actually exactly what I need. Forget your money. That means nothing to me. Having you in my debt, knowing I've made you squirm, that is the only currency I value. And, like, to understand that those are the situations you have to navigate. And that's just at the beginning. And that's just at the beginning, like, for herself. And then it becomes about her daughter and the idea of perpetuating this custom that has led to so much unhappiness in her own life. That's the first untrue thing you've said, like, chilling, chilling, chilling line after Mom says that she's not considering the offer. Yeah, I want to hear Richard Delaine and Genevieve O'Reilly have that in. She's have that interchange because both the drop of discomfort line incredible stuff, but also what I love about this throughout we've had to see both Luthin and Mon wear these masks of gentility performing

in their double lives and their double roles. So to have her have this conversation and hear her constantly having to forcefully remodulate her tone back to light diplomacy or light friendliness inside an incredibly tense conversation was really rewarding for me. So Steve, will you play this clip of Mon and Davo, please? I insist. And I refuse. Please take no offense. I'd prefer not to owe any favors.

I'd feel far more comfortable paying you for your trouble. A drop of discomfort may be the price of doing business. Just like within a sentence, she just sort of like has to actively lift her tone back up to this is just a polite conversation that we're having, and she's so uncomfortable. And the incredibly satisfying payoff of the twin relationships that we've been watching Ma

navigate in this whole season, which is her absolute hatred of Perrin, her terrible husband, and the cold, chilly distance with her daughter. And so to see those two things pay off, because the shittiness of parent is our constant reminder that her arranged marriage that she was forced into when she was a teenager, she was, what is it, 15 to 16,

that she constantly has to live under that hell. And then she knows that her daughter, who already basically does not like her, will never forgive her if she is, I mean, maybe this guy is lovely. Maybe he's like the hot fray daughter. You know what I mean? Like maybe Davos Golden Sun is actually like quite a good lady.

Yeah. Very nice and fun and good looking. Like maybe it's great. But we don't know. And we don't want like, yeah, to force, to be forced to consider putting your daughter into the very hell that you are enduring. This is the other shoe dropping on this. We've been wondering this whole time. Like what is the later payoff? And I couldn't imagine anything more.

exquisitely intricate. And the way that this sequence ends, you know, we talked about the framing of Mon at the end of her plotline last week where she's standing alone framed in this beautiful geometric ivory palace that she's in. And here she's sitting on the couch, the two men walk away, she's sitting on the couch alone, and she's like hyperventilating when she can't catch her breath. And it's like that constant motif we keep talking about about the fist tightening and the choking and the lack of air and oxygen.

and this is the fist closing around Ma'amatha's throat and this is the cost. And as you say, it's so personal. And that's such clever, clever writing. Yeah, like the fact that this is a galactic wide pursuit, those are the stakes. That is the scale. But as we've talked about throughout our pods,

like the genius of taking us down into pharix or even going back to Canari so that we see how deep this, goes even predating what we understand the empire formally to be. When you take us inside of a home, the fact that Bix's torture last week was at the hotel just down the street from the community in which she lived her life, it makes it real for you. And you made the great point last week about like resurfacing that Gilroyd line and framing for this show, the education of Cassie and Andor. And every character has their version of that.

And sometimes that education is something that helps the scales fall off your eyes and shows you with clarity and crispness what you are confronting and what is necessary. And sometimes it's a block a blockade. It's a thing you understand then that you have to work through. And so like even something like Devo saying, I've met your husband several times and Mon's reply, I'm sure, little things like that are just so brilliant. like it tells us right away. We understood that this was not a meeting or a tie that Mon wanted to have or wanted to make. We understood that when Tay brought it up. Immediately it was clear. This was not something she was comfortable with.

Right. But that, that tie to Perrin, who we know she has such derision for it is I think more than like, to me it's less hate and more like palpable dripping disappointment. You know, we think of like that firebrand. Like disdain. What who you became? Like you weren't the person I counted on you being. And I thought you could. And like that's the most disappointing thing of all.

And then like you have a moment and this is in the beginning of the conversation. And they're like theoretically talking about the property. The place around them. What they're looking at in the walls, the furniture, the decorations, the decor. And Mon says, our choices for change are limited. Sure, that's about the thing they're talking about, but not really. It's about so much more. It's this larger idea.

And so that, again, ties in and amplifies and heightens the tension and the stress of having to contemplate something so personal. If your choices are that limited inside of your own life, like, it's just another way inside of this episode of saying one way out. Like, you have to, that's why this is so urgent. If the choices are limited, that specifically is the thing you have to change. There's got to be more than one way out for everyone, or you'll never escape that fist. And I think we're constantly what this, so the original prompt for Rogue One, when John

Knoll, a long-time Lucasholm employee came up with the idea for Rogue One, the original prompt is sort of, you know, okay, let's think about these plans for the Death Star, how did the Rebel Alliance get them in the first place? And a key line connected to that is, of course, the famous mom Mothman line, like many Bothans died to bring us. I rewatched that sequence this week because I was just thinking about when you think about someone, we're going to get to the prison break next, right? But when you think about someone like Kino-Loy, or you think about Nemek, you think about all these characters that we've met, we get invested in, and then they don't make it out.

And of course, eventually Cassian and Jin won't make it out. And of course, they're not Bothans. That's a different thing altogether. But many people died to bring us this. And we are being forced to reckon with, again, similar to the same, that Alder Online, not just the vague concept of like, oh, some Bothans died to bring us this, but like, here are all the people who are trying, who are striving, who believe to varying degrees, who are having their awakenings, and they just simply won't make it.

Because, you know, and Vanne was making this excellent argument on the Midnight Boys about, like, Luke and Lanhan and how they get to win and how we're watching all these people who have to lose so that it's, I mean, what it's making me feel like is, like, the medal ceremony at the end of a new hope. I'm like, how dare you? Honestly. Where's Chewy's medal? Yeah. Kito Lois? No, not just like, where's Chewy's metal? But I'm just sort of like, Keenoloi da is dead. And you're putting metals on your bodies for like, because you got to live. Like, of course, we need to celebrate our victories. But like, what Andor is forcing us to do is live in our defeats. And so when, when Mamatma,

the original actress who plays Mamatha is saying many Bothans died, she's also just talking about the larger cost, and now we know with thanks to this extra texture that's put on it, the very personal cost that is knocking at the door for Monmouthma. What did she have to pay to get here? Yeah, and I think, like, that idea that you just explored and the Van explored so beautifully, like, is very present for the characters in this episode. I mean, that's a crucial element of Luton's speech, which we'll talk about, you know, later in... beat by beat detail. But when he says the ego that I started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude? No metal ceremony. That is what that is. It's a recognition

in real time as you are as you are waging this war that you won't be there to celebrate the victory and more so that nobody will know that you had any part shaping it. And like it takes a rare type of strength and fortitude to be able to accept that. All right, let's talk about this prison break. Okay. What I want to, there's so much I want to praise this episode for, that's something that, you know, plenty of people have talked about, and we've talked about on this podcast,

is this idea of, like, how do you create tension in a scenario where we know the outcome for our main character? And not to mention Melshey. We know Cassian and Melshi are making it off this floating prison one way or another. We know that for a fact. And Cassian, ostensibly, is our huge. So how do we create tension in a scenario where we know, well, our hero's going to make it? So, like, why should we care?

And the answer is that, like, in all those other circumstances where we make that complaint about a prequel, it just means that they weren't rising to the occasion because there are so many other ways to create tension outside of the, is my hero going to live or die. What's going to happen to the rest of the prisoners? What's going to happen to someone like Keen Oloy, who's a blank spot on our map here? And from the jump of the Narcina storyline, we're getting all these scenarios. This is similar to what we talked about last week when Ulav is being euthanized on the bridge there. And the added tension of having a guard at the end of the bridge saying, hurry up, move it along, hurry up. And so we get this opening sequence with Cassian and Kino having an argument. And there's a tension of we need to get on program because we need to get in front of the door because we need to go or else they're going to friday.

There's this anxiety of not just this faith-breaking reckoning that Kino was actively happening in this moment, but also just the physical reality of their prison of like, we got to go, we got to get on program, they're going to fry us if we don't. So there's a timer on this section of the physical building that we're allowed to be in to have this conversation. How did this opening back and forth with Cassie and Kino? sit for you. First of all, I really agree with what you're saying, and I think that extends obviously into subsequent scenes, like when they go back into their bunks and Cassian is a toe tip away from being fried. He stays on the floor that long. Our heart is racing. Yeah. And like, again,

like you said, like we know that he makes it out. But I think like what, I think the point about like other characters being introduced and instantly working their way into our hearts like Kino and others is really important because yes, then we're invested in so many different people along the way. But I just think regardless, when we've talked about this a lot with the MCU and other stories, the stakes are not just life and death. And that's what's important really inside of the interesting story. Like even if this were just Cassian alone and there were no one else who we invested in along the way, I would have felt like a riveting, uh, a magnetic. poll watching him every step of the way. Now, he couldn't have had the same journey without the

other people. But like, you know, I think the point holds because like, what do we learn about him and what does he learn about himself? And that's, and again, this is like made text inside of this episode in his conversation to, with Kino and then Kino parodering his words over the PA system later. It's not just about whether you live and die. It's the choice you make to take that out of somebody else's hands. It's the choice you make to push forward and decide that for yourself. So, like, right away, you have the clock ticking, the tension, the on-program switch. Cassian being the one who has to then remind Kino to go on program at the end, like little role rehearsals like that, which obviously become very crucial across this episode in their relationship.

But, like, it's just banger after banger. Again, like, we have these two iconic, instantly iconic speeches in this episode, which we'll talk about, like, I think literally forever as Star Wars fans. And so other lines could get lost, except like we're all already obsessed with them too, because this is just such a masterclass in dialogue and filmmaking on TV. So the line where Kino says, they just killed 100 men to keep them quiet, what would you call that? They're talking about fear? I'd call that power is what Kino says in response to Kassian's question.

And Cassian replies, power? Power doesn't panic. You can make an entire television show, an entire series in pursuit of a line that good. And it's like 20th on the power rankings inside of this episode. Yeah, and it's such a, it's such a Thrones conversation. There are so many juicy Thrones conversations about power and to have it just like be this passing moment

in this larger masterpiece of an episode. But as you say, like, it doesn't get lost. The Mon Mothasy doesn't get lost. This doesn't get lost, you know, so. Yeah, the Throne Cup is, I was thinking of that too because it's like if a scene like Little Finger and Circe in the courtyard, power is power, our Various idea that we talk about so often, like any of those wonderful conversations,

a trick resides where I believe it resides. Like in a moment, like a Varist-Therian conversation, you can feel where the strength of a forged alliance can unlock some sort of shared understanding. And then you take like a scene like a, Circey Littlefinger scene and it's like the debate or discussion or the one degree removed perception of that idea is used to like belittle or dwarf or overpower. And like it's just so amazing that a conversation like that inside of this scene is the key to unlocking the alliance as opposed

to like making somebody feel like inferior. It's not like you don't, why don't you understand this? It's like, let me help you figure out how to. That's what this whole episode is about. The constant reminders that Kino is always listening and always observing is something that I absolutely love both in this episode and throughout because that last line of last week's episode, right? Never more than 12. That, again, instantly iconic Star Wars line. That means that Kino has been paying attention to how many guards.

He has that answer already. He's been paying attention, right? And when he and Cassian are arguing here and he says, you know, it might be nice to have a plan. And Cassian's like, we got a plan. He said, oh, the one you're concocting with Bernock and Melshey, which means that he knows, you know, we've seen Cassian conferring with Bernock. That's the guy who's talking to about the lift last week. And so, you know, he's like, I know, I've been watching you. And then always that always watching listening, of course, then translates to, as you already mentioned, this line I'd rather die taking them down.

then die giving me what they want, which Cassine says to him and he, and, you know, later repeats word for word over the PA. This is, there's several lines in this speech that are direct lifts from various revolutionaries in history. This is a lift from Emiliano Zapata. It's often translated as better to die on your feet than live on your knees, but the actual quote, prefiller, to die de foot, I'd rather

die on my feet than live on my knees. And that is, like, like, the way in which they're just sliding a Zapatista line into Star Wars

here is, and again, we're going to talk about, with Ben, we're going to talk about language later, but, like, this is the thing of

Star Wars is like, there's a lot of, Star Wars is so important to us, you and me, and to people listening. But, But famously, for years, Star Wars was mocked as being, like, despite it being like an incredible story filled with these clunkers, you can write it, but you can't say it, George, you know, lines.

And so to have the themes of Star Wars or the world of Star Wars that we love so much, with the added layer of this, like, lyricism of language on top of it, again, this is not, I'm not throwing all of the rest of Star Wars under the rug. there's like definitely under the rug is not the phrase, under the bus. Like there's definitely other beautiful speeches and lines and whatever that are iconic in Star Wars, but like I don't, there's not much that's quite as leeryical as what we get here. Would you agree with that?

I think that the batting average inside of this show is as high as we've seen for that. That's great. That's great way I put it. The other thing that I love about that line from Cassian here, the way that it recurs in, in Kino's address in the climax, is that it's never just one layer and level of influence.

This is a ladder that builds, which will connect to another theme today that we're going to talk about, which is this idea of the climb and climbing. Because when Kassian says that here, before he is inspiring and influencing Kino, Luton inspired and influenced him. This is, in essence, what Luton said to.

Cassian earlier in the season when he said, wouldn't you rather give it all at once to something real? That is the same idea, right? And so we see the way that these little embers, the spark that becomes the fire, like burrow their way inside. And even if the first time you hear it, maybe even particularly if, like in the very first conversation that Luther and Cassian have, They're not like, cool, we're on the same page. Let's be friends forever. Similarly with Cassian and Kino. You have to work to forge that trust.

But when something works its way under your skin and roots in, it's appealing. I love the point you're making about how these little moments from Kino show us that this has been there for him the whole time. And it was the taking away of that hope of escape for him, of the hope of a better tomorrow. Like one of the really wonderful things that Tony Gilroy talked about on the watch with Kristen was this idea of like the afterlife, right? And this like religious aspect. And once that's gone, all you have left is the life you have today and the choice you make today. And this is the recurring through line across these conversations. Right. So like when your frame of reference changes for what is possible, then the possibility is the thing you have to shape and forge. And so like again,

even though like the conversation between Mon and Davo is like a very different thing than a prison break or the conversation that Luton and Lonnie have is a very different thing. Like they're all of a piece thematically. There's this idea of being trapped. There's this idea of the prison that connects to another Thrones thing we've loved talking about in recent weeks. Do you make a window in the wall of your prison or do you bust your way out and swim away? Right.

And like one of the things that Davos says to Mon is boundaries can be liberating. Well, boundaries can be suffocating too. And like you have to knock them down and you have to find people who will help you believe that you can. One of my favorite things that Andy Circus said in our conversation that we had last week with him was this idea of that Kina Lois is a natural leader. And he's been barking orders for the prison guards as we've seen him in the last couple episodes. But like that the empire has snuffed out, had snuffed out something in him that and or reignites. And a great point that Ben made in his column this week is that for Andor, and or giving the Mike De Kino, we're going to get back chronological in a second, I think.

But like, and or giving the Mike to Kino similar to and or pushing Jin forward to be the one to lead, this idea of and or leading from behind, right? It's not and or the one doing the leading. He's leading from behind. It's similar to, you know, like giving Nemek a pep talk or whatever it is. He's, like, leading from behind. He's finding his genius in that way. The knowledge of when to pass the baton over, I think is really interesting. And this idea of repeated words, as you say, there's never more, it's always more than one layer.

We talked about this last week with Vell repeating what Sinta says to her, right? Sinta says something, and then Vell says it later to Mon. We take what's left. And it's sort of like, yeah, how we, how these words of inspiration or these rebellious attitudes burrow their way inside of us until they become our beliefs as well. It's like the ember that lights, the spark that lights, you know, all that sort of stuff, that's the classic Star Wars language. But it's also almost like infectious in a good way of like it's spreading.

You know, there's a contagion of rebellion and it's spreading. And I love that. And I love, I do want to talk really quickly about Luthyn's argument earlier in the season that we sort of bristled at or grappled with, which is that there will be follow-out from Eldani. Mon Mothma's like, listen, man, innocent people are going to be caught up and this is terrible. And he's like, that's what we need.

We need that. Sorry to say it. That is what we need to move this rebellion forward. And we watch in this Narakina plot line, if that level hadn't been fried, terrible, awful. It's awful that it happened. But if that doesn't happen, does Andor get the prison break that he needs? Like, that's an exact, you know, they were being gently choked by the guards here. And it's when the grip tightened too hard an entire level of men were killed,

that then the rebellion could spark forth from it. And the idea of Narcina is this smaller microcosm of the larger empire rebellion dynamic is fascinating to me. I'll save most of my Luton thoughts for when we get to the Luton scene at the end. But I will just say since you're mentioning that here, like, I was really just, honestly, like, thrilled to see how central that idea was in what he was saying. That this is something he thinks about all the time. Like, he's not like, yeah, and I don't care or I don't recognize the cost. It's the cost has robbed me of the very humanity I am fighting to restore a person.

I'm damned. Yeah. I'm damned. for it. That is why this show is just at another level. Yeah. So Kino and Cassian go back to the, to, you know, the sleeping pods.

As you say, Cassian barely makes it off the hot floor in time giving me such nerves. He is a character who is willing to stand there till the final second, and we know, of course, what that will mean on Scariff's at the end of all

things. Yeah, a great point. And then Kino has his moment. where he's just sort of like, all right, I'm going to, you know, Cassian's trying to lead. And then, Kino's like, I'm going to do. I'm going to use my barking form and voice, you know, to tell you nobody's getting out, right? We are done with counting shifts. There is only then and now. Oh, my God.

There is only one way out. Play it how you want. But I'm going to assume I'm already dead. Are you dead? Oh, my God. Wow. And like, how rewarding is this already on a rewatch? Just like a day later? Knowing.

Knowing. One way out, like, it's wild that one way out is that's the first mention is right there. It's not, we've been seating this all season. By the end of the episode, you feel like we've been saying one way out for weeks now, right? This is the mantra and the creed that has been forged over years. No, minutes. We got this great email from Bailey who noticed this tiny detail that I missed

is that when, but right before the lights go on for the start of that final shift, we see Cassian lying in the dark with his eyes open and Bailey wrote this great email saying, I kept thinking about Nemek's quote about Cassian's ability to sleep

while Nemick's nerves prevented him from getting the rest the night before the heist. Nemick said, I'm struggling to understand why my faith doesn't calm me. I believe in something. Why am I so unsettled?

I mean, you have nothing. and you sleep like a stone. And right before the lights come on to start the final ship, we see Cassian with his eyes open in the dark. Do you think this moment was meant to have us recall the last arc and how Cassian has changed since then,

or at least how his circumstances have changed? And yeah, I mean, I think we're constantly supposed to be, this me, Joanna, I think we're constantly supposed to be on the lookout for the education of Cassian Andor and how he is deepening as a person, becoming a more profound person. thanks to the other people that he's meeting like Nemek and then losing Nemek and the experiences that he's had. What do you think about that detail, Mallory?

What a fantastic observation and email from Bailey. Joe, we didn't get to, I mean, we did our catch-up, our ketchup pot on one through six, but we didn't get to really go beat by beat on those early episodes. I feel confident saying that I'm struggling to understand why my faith doesn't call me would have been a line we spent an hour on. Yes. What a remarkable idea to put in this show. All right. In our notes here, I have a ridiculously elaborate TikTok of the prison break just because I didn't in the words of Stephen Tyler.

You should do like a quick like stretch here and like maybe take a sip a Gatorade. I don't think we need to run down the whole thing beat by beat. What do you think is most? I'll start with something I think is most important. Okay. Which is that again in the last two episodes. leading up to this. I think they did a good enough job of giving Cassian's tablemates

enough of, like, distinct personalities or distinct looks, where I cared about how they did in this prison break, and I got stressed out. And I liked that they had roles to play, and I got stressed out for them and upset when Saul, who's the ginger, when he got shot. I was like, no, no, the ginger. Honestly, like verbally said that out loud.

my house when he went down. I love a ginger. But like, you know, it's not just Cassie and Kino and a bunch of randos. Like, I feel like, I feel connected. You don't need to know that they're called Gemback Tagas, solid ham. You don't need to know all their names, but like, you kind of know them from these shifts we spent with them. What's stood out to you and all in this present break here? I think to like, to, to hit on what you just say. I'm really happy to admit like how the show

like prayed upon my readiness to expect the worst in people. You know? Like one of the things we talked about when we first made it to the prison was just like, we were talking about it specifically initially through the lens of Ulav, right?

But like in general, a guy like Zal, you're just like, oh yeah, ready for him to turn on everyone. Ham? Can I trust you? not for a second. And the surge of, like, faith you feel in humanity and in people's ability to find common purpose, it was, it was not my expectation heading into the sequence. And, like, I think that that, again, like, for us as the audience, is very true to the experience that a

character like Cassian is going to have, where on the one hand, he really believes in people and friendships and helping each other out. Like, we got that great little moment where he couldn't believe, we couldn't believe it when Bix told him the people back on Farix were ready to, ready to tell, right? It's like, me? What? No, me.

Sure, I owe all these people money, but me, no way. And I probably slept with all of their daughters and wives and sisters, but like, come on. Oms, aunts. Uh-huh. Who can say? Everyone's on the table. But, like, the depth and extent of the found face.

family and forged family that has built here, like a little moment like Taga, talking about how he's dead. And again, this is after we've had this great line from Cassian and this great line from Kino and this idea is very central already. What does Cassian do? He turns to him and he says, don't die until you put up a fight. Again, there are like episodes where that line is the culmination of everything. And it's just in the middle of this rapid fight.

pursued. I thought that in general, in 5-2D and then as the escape widens, as they crack open the water pipe and then the dam, that like element of balance in the sequence pace the symphony-like nature, I mean, literally of the score and the way that the score is implemented across this sequence, the way that the camera moves from glance. to glance the way that everyone is communicating, allowing us to see, I'm going to pick up a wrench, I'm going to pick up a gear, what's in everybody's hand, where are they looking, whose toe is closest to the water that's creeping in the room? There's such a zoomed-in level of interest and care, and yet the scope and scale of something like really consequential. There's the intimacy of those

relationships and what these people have built together, and then like the rhythm and pace of a great action set piece. That's just an incredibly hard thing to do. And I think that your initial observation about these other characters really helps unlock that. Because then so much passes between everybody in a little moment.

And when we see, when you, like you said, you're like, not the ginger. Like you have a connection to something you don't really know, but you know something essential and elemental about what has been taken from him. And like, that's what matters. That's the universal thing.

I start, it's similar to, I don't know what your experience was. I'm just going to assume you watch Bander Brothers, but it's when I watch something like Bander Brothers, and I just assumed correctly. It's too many names for me to get right away so that I just start making like nicknames for them until I learn their names or whatever. And I'm like, oh, how many have been ham? What happened for you? I love the name of Ham here.

It was just so great. Yeah. Zal. Zal and Tannaham, Jebuck. When they grab all the tools, I had this like overly English major

manner to interpretation of it, which is that like the Marxist idea of taking ownership of the means of production, right? They're literally grabbing the means of production, but also a foreshadowing of that luthin line. I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy

to defeat them. That's what they're literally. really doing is using the tools of their enemy to defeat them. But also, yeah, the people who go down right away. Zalal goes down, Burnock goes down, the new guy who we don't even know his name, but we've seen him quake and fear before he goes out there on the lift. And then immediately he's on the lift, takes the opportunity to fight, and then is immediately taken off the board. And that's like, this is a brutal storytelling. Like, not everyone's going to make it out. You know, big characters, small characters, not everyone's going to make it out. And

The way that Narcina was set up, we talked about this a lot in the first two episodes that were centered here, but set up to divide people against each other. As you say, sort of prey on your understanding of people turning on each other. But that's how these minimal guards on this prison knew how to rule, which is divide and rule, right? You have to keep them battling against each other. And the only way to escape is to break that idea and understand. you know, per keynote speech later, we have to all do this together, or none of us are getting out. One way out, there's one way out. There's like nine different interpretations that, which we'll talk about. But like one of those interpretations is together is the only way out of this. And that, again, is the larger commentary on the rebellion as a whole. So anything else I want to say about the physically getting out of the, oh, Melchie, Melchie making it to the master switch, which he doesn't get.

to make it to in Rogue One. Love that. Good, good episode for Melshi. Obviously, like, at the very end, seeing Cassie and Melshi together there. I don't know. So much in this episode, like you alluded to earlier, just this is like, this is how prequels can actually not only work, but be great and, like, really enrich our understanding of the path to an endpoint.

It's really fun. And also, he's, the Melshi line climb. Use whatever you can. This is one of the many moments where we get a climb mention, which we'll talk about more momentarily. We get into the control room. Yes. We meet the voice of God.

Yes. I think this guy looks like Andy Greenwald. You can agree or disagree. I think Andy's very handsome. I think this guy's very handsome. So it's like a flattering comparison. But I'm just like, but it's just a guy. It's just a guy is the point.

You know what I mean? We've been hearing this distorted voice of God and we'll hear Keno's voice distorted later as it goes over the PA. But like, it's just a guy. Who's the man behind the carton? It's just some guys who are panicking. he's saying fry the whole level. Like he's ready to fry another whole level

because power doesn't panic, but these guys aren't actually the power. The boots don't play into it at all, which is a fun little like subversion of expectation. Yeah, I kept initially I just kept shouting like, take the boots. Take the boots. So I guess it would have been pretty hard to swim in them.

Take the boots, hon. But I love that too because it's like it was less about them co-opting. in that case, the tool of the enemy and more about them taking it away from the person who could use it to hurt them. The floor doesn't matter after it's flooded and dead charged.

Yeah, we got a cold floor. But Andor does tell him to get on program, which is just like, you're like, yeah. Delightful. Yeah. We open the episode with the back half of Keno's speech, but of course, we want to hear the front half of Keno's speech. So after, Andor gives Kino the mic,

And he's like, you have to do it. Andy Circus gives us a great, like, fearful, I don't know what I'm doing, look. It's got to be you. It's got to be you, sort of Cassie a moment. And then we hear this. Steve, will you play us, Kino Loi, please? My name is Kilo Loi. I'm the day shift manager on level five.

I'm speaking to you from the command center on level eight. We are at this moment in control of the facility. Is that the best you got? How long we hang on, how far we get, how many of us make it out. All of that is now up to us. We have deactivated every floor in the facility. All the floors out of yourselves. Take charge and start climbing.

They don't have enough guards and they know it. If we wait until they figure that out, it'll be too late. We will never have a better chance than this. And I would rather die trying to take them down than giving them what they want. Let's go. Let's do a heist. We're prison breaking around a heisting. But here we are.

All right. Let's talk about the climb. All right. So this is something he says, right? Get out of yourselves, take charge, start climbing. you already mentioned that Melchie said something similar. We got this email from Noah. He says, the prison structure, the lift ride to Luthon,

Cyril's dissension to his mother's home, Nemick, RIP, yelling climb while escaping in the freighter and all other charges to climb, FICs going up and down the signal tower, and probably others than I'm missing. Motifs of rising up or falling into depths aren't groundbreaking, but they do feel like they're used so well in Andor, in particular having to descend, I think, down to Luth in in in episode 10 is a great way of reinforcing the gray nature of his character. So this idea of climb, I mean, again, we have to think of Thrones, Mallory, when we think of the climb. Absolutely. One of our favorites. The climb is all there is.

The climb is. But what do you make of this recurring climb motif in this season of television? So also, of course, K2SO, right, in Rogue One. That's, yeah. So another tie there. I couldn't love this more. Two thoughts. Listening to this here and feeling how inextricable the idea was from possibility, escape, what is next, what is out there. I was thinking back to episode six, which was another time we've heard climbing mentioned in this season.

And that was in Skeen's reveal to Cassian of who he really was and what he was really after. And he said, don't play the high minds with me. You're not here to save anybody but yourself. I saw it the first minute you came into camp, you're just like me. We were born in the hole and all we know is climbing over somebody else to get out. The inversion of that instinct to say that the climb, the climb to safety, the climb to possibility, the climb to your own future has to come at someone else's expense and to take it here and put it inside of this great rousing surging keynote speech where he is finding in

himself in real time the same belief that he is trying to instill in other people, this idea of if you see somebody who's confused, if you see somebody who needs help, stop, help them because that's the way to get out is together. Like, that's the only way forward. We'll see a few prisoners fall and get, seem like, get kind of trampled. Like, not everyone is stopping helping. Not everybody, but it's like, it's 5,000 people. You know, can we hope this?

But, like, the other thing I really like about this idea of climbing, and, you know, we've chatted a lot about how we don't have Jedi in this show. The Force is not, like, a central part of this text. We don't have lightsaber duels. You know, we've got like a couple minutes spent on discussing air support. And we've got like a Krieger pilot who's captured. We've got a couple ships at Saw Guerrera's camp when Luton goes, etc. But like that stuff's pretty minimal so far in the season.

Broadly across Star Wars, the idea of flight gazing out into the distance, into space, into the sky, Luke, looking at the binary sunsets, of course. but even like think of Anakin and what flight represented to him. Think of a character like Han, someone we consider like not just the rogue, but the smuggler, the guy who can figure out the way out, flight going up into the sky, leaving the ground that in this prison is weaponized to destroy you until they remove that equation. Like I love that it's like a really practical, grounded connection to something that

has been really central for our characters. Luke wants to get into that X-wing and fly up into the sky. different really from the idea of a climb? Like, it isn't to me. I think that these are very much linked. Like, the way to escape your moisture farm and the banality of your existence or the torment of your circumstance, climb is up. And I mean, I think to underline, that's such a great point, I think to underline it, like the first or most obvious climb moment we get is that NEMIC moment and that is having to do with flying the transport it they're on. Right. When NEMIC says climb. Right. It means pull up. Even when the calculations aren't possible or like,

never told me the odds kind of moment there too. So another fun connection. Yeah. I think like the other thing that was so cool in this sequence is just like the cutting between hearing the distorted keynote voice on the PA. And then just the real behind the scenes, like getting the getting that all in one moment was just like so wonderful there. And like, you know, we talked about the recurring influence and the lines and when we hear it from him here. Like if you're watching it with close. those captions, it's actually in, that I would rather die. Quotes. It's actually in quotes.

This is very cool. Yeah. I asked Toby about the, Toby Haynes, director of this episode, many others, about the concept of the climb, so you can hear his answer down in our interview later on this episode. Also, Toby talked to our beloved colleague, Ben Lindbergh for Bringer.com. What a great website. And he said that when Andy Circus was doing the speech, the way that they would usually shoot

an episode of television as they were just trying to, like, do pickups. of him doing, because we hear a lot of it, and we don't see all of it, to have him just do voiceover pickups in between, you know, other pages that they were shooting. And he was like, no, I need him to do the whole speech. I need him to learn the whole speech. I need him to do it all at once

because I need him to, like, build that momentum and, like, feel, you know, the stakes rising as he's talking. So, fantastic work. Let me briefly for you, Mallorub, and run down my interpretations of the phrase one way out. And you let me know if I missed anything and if you have anything on top of this. All right.

So number one, one way out, number one has to do with timing. This is something, again, that Tony Gilroy talked to Chris and Andy about, this idea that they cracked that, like, earlier when we hear Cassie and Kino talking and it's like tomorrow, tomorrow. We have to do it tomorrow. There'll be no other time. They'll get more guards. One man in, one man out sort of thing. It has to be now. So to put a clock on this escape is, again, great tension ratcheting up storytelling.

There's one way out, one time out, and it's now. Okay. Number two has to do with realizing that their other way that they thought getting out of there, which was finishing all their shifts, is a lie. So that's not a way out. The one way out is this rebellion. They don't get out the other way. This is the great lie that they've discovered.

The third one is, and we already mentioned this, but that this whole thing is a massive metaphor for the rebellion. There's only one way out of the stranglehold of the empire, and it's a prison break. Like this one, and Ben pointed out in his column, that the overhead shot that we get of an arcena five, as all the men are swimming away, it looks like the imperial crest from above.

So, like, again, you should be thinking about this as a microcosm for the larger imperial struggle. there are more people out there in the empire than there are jackbooted, you know, imperial soldiers and stormtroopers. You know what I mean? And if all the, if the majority of the people banded together, the empire would have no chance. And that's the dynamic that we see in our Kina. And then my last interpretation, and this is the most devastating one, is there is literally only one way out of the facility. And it requires that you be able to swim.

and Keenoloy cannot fucking swim one way out and he cannot be a part of it. Devastating, like genuine all time, like sucking in the air when you're watching it and you hear it and you're like this, oh my God, this like cannot be happening. This is so deeply upsetting. but like I loved what you said earlier about needing to show us that not everybody makes out and like that this isn't a story this it's not only not a story about everyone making it out. It's a story of reminding us that a lot of people don't. And so is Rogue 1, right? And like that that's really what Cassian slice of the timeline is.

It's all of the people who didn't move forward. But, like, there's still so much hope inside of that. Because, like, they get to the edge of that platform before the, I can't swim, gut punch. And Cassiean turns to Melchie and he says, whatever happens now, we made it. Like, they won. You know, again, that's another line that's, like, not going to get as much attention as some of the other ones, but I think is as important. Like, the victory really isn't jumping into the water.

It's not being able to swim to shore. It's not running barefoot over the snowy, ground to evade your captors who are surely in pursuit, it's the fact that you tasted freedom and that you won that for yourself. Like, it's the fact that you decided to do this in the first place. Like, that's what the win is. And so Kino got that. And, like, I loved that moment so much where, like, when he first says it, there's, like,

a real look of fear, like terror on his face and then it becomes a smile. Like the hound seeing fire, you know? Like that's, yeah, yes. Yeah, like a visceral phobia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it becomes like this almost like, like a half like little laugh. Like, it was just an incredible performance from circus. And, you know, what you said earlier about that interpretation of one way out is together.

Like, for me, I mean, I think everything you outlined is brilliant. I think it's all of those things. And I think, again, it connects to the version of that that's happening for other characters that they're seeing in front of them and confronting too. But like, the way. one way out as community, you know, and teamwork and alliance building is, is just so central here. I hope that Kino's alive. I'll just throw that out there despite everything I said about the power of the message of him not making it. If I don't see a body, I'm holding on to a little slimmer possibility.

The Snoke theories are blossoming. I don't hold to them, but I will let people have them. I've seen a couple What I will say What I do think is a misinterpretation of the text is that I've seen some people think that Kino knew from the beginning that he wasn't going to make it out

because he knew all along that he couldn't swim Of course he knows he can't swim But I don't think it occurs to him Until he gets to the edge That he's like oh And now we eat like there's very much And Andy Circus gave this interview to Collider Where he talks about the various ways

They shot that line delivery which I think is just so beautiful and understated. But he said, quote, we try it in different ways. We tried that line of him almost being angry without being too sentimental, kind of seeing his own doom. We tried it and eventually we sort of settled into this area of him almost coming to terms with it. I think that moment of pathos probably was the way to go.

It was a really explorative scene to do, and especially for me given my character. A sense of vertico and fear and phobia of war and all this sort of stuff. And so yeah, it's in that moment. He's having that moment is like, oh. And it allows me to do something, one of my favorite things that we would do on our Rings and Power podcast, which is to do a Tolkien corner.

Of course, when we see Andy's Circus, we think of Tolkien. But genuinely my first thought when he says, I can't swim, was this Frodo quote that you and I have talked about a bunch from Richard the King, where Frodo says, I tried to save the Shire. and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger, someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them. And obviously, we'll come back to this when we talk about Luthin, but like, Kina Loi saved the Shire, but not for him. He doesn't get to enjoy the thing that he saved, this profound Frodo sentiment from Lord of the Rings.

Yeah. It's also very smart to have Andor be, like, knocked off the platform. for him before. Like, he doesn't even have a chance to decide whether or not he's going to try to help Kino or what he's going to do. The decision is taken away from him. And so then we could just, you know, then he has to swim and he and Melshema get to shore in a key moment from Luton's speech, which we'll come back to.

But, you know, we're just left then with Kino and, yeah, the ambiguity of whether or not he makes it out. But, like, what's, I think, most important whether or not he doesn't make it out is what's important is, like, there are so many that don't. And Kino-Loy could be the face of Hullaby Bhutan Nemek, Kino. Okay. Whatever happens now, we made it. We made it.

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Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. Brief for a way I would have to Ferricks just to check in on Marva.

She's hiding her meds. I don't like that, Marva. There's a community of women who are looking after her. I think these are meant to be the daughters of Ferrix that Brasso brought up a couple weeks ago. But we also, Sinta is watching Marva, but also one of Deirdre's men is watching Marva as well.

That's it. This scene is not in the sense. episode if this doesn't end up being incredibly important in the penultimate episode and finale. So this was incredibly alarming. Incredibly alarming, Joanna. Very upset and scared. I am concerned. Meanwhile, speaking of my phone is for Ginger's.

Let's go to the ISB. Lonnie. By the way, the actor who plays Lonnie and the actor who plays the dearly departed Saul. The two gingers. We're both in the TV, the miniseries Chernobyl. Now, Nina Gold, basically, if you're ever watching something, you're like, who the fuck cast this? It's either Sarah Hallifan casting a Marvel project or it's Nina Gold casting Game of Thrones and Star Wars and everything you love in Chernobyl. So Nina Gold was the casting director on Chernobyl and also the casting director on Andor.

But I like that she picked these, like, lower down the cast list people from Trinople. Chernobyl to flesh out these like down-trodded members of this, you know, the Soviets are here to fill out the ranks in Andor. So Lonnie, before we get this big reveal later, Lonnie and Deidra have this scene in front of Partigaz. What do you want to say about this little peek inside the ISB here? So Lonnie does his best. who try to protect and preserve life and tip off the side that he is actually fighting for while not blowing his own cover inside of the ISB. That's like what's happening here. Here was my main takeaway on this scene. We as the audience are not the only ones who picked up on that. I think I thought

it seemed clear that Miro picked up on this and that when she bounced, because Partigas agrees with Lonnie's counsel, which is we should do what we normally do. Like, let's assume Krieger's watching, the least suspicious thing we could do would be to take an interest. That's what he says. Part of gas is like, cool, good note. Let's do that. Then Miro gestures at her attendant, and they immediately, like, a little quick, like,

head-tilt eye contact, they leave. I think you could certainly read that as, like, annoyance. And I'm sure it is. She wants to be in control. But I was like, she sniffed out that's something. fishy here with Lonnie. I mean, if anyone's going to stiff out Lonnie is going to be Miro, right? Like, absolutely 100%.

So I think that's a completely valid interpretation. My interpretation was she was pissed that whenever Part of Gais listens to someone who's not her, she's pissed. But I think your interpretation is very smart and very possibly true as well. I just, I think that the quickness of it, like if she, if if she were pissed, I wonder if she like stays in the room and argues. I thought that the quickness, the haste with which she exited was like, I have unlocked something that is now requiring my immediate attention to the point

where I'm like, did she follow Lonnie? Did she see that conversation between, now obviously he's in the turbo lift for multiple minutes. So how exactly a potential tracking would take place? But maybe when he goes back up, she's there waiting for him in the next episode. Like that will not surprise me at all. So is that going to lead her to loosen? I don't know, but I think Lonnie's toast next episode. Lonnie is, I mean, with love and respect to Lonnie's new daughter.

Yeah, Lonnie's not long for this world, I think. But if he goes out at the start of next week's episode, he's going to go out in style because I really did love his, like, dramatic cravat, turtleneck scarf situation, whatever it was. Wonderful. Before we get into the TurboLift, though, we've got this Luther and Clayah scene. I'm fascinated by their code. By the way, it's like, part of the handrail was missing over here,

and this is over here, and that means he wants a face-to-face meeting. Luther doesn't see Lonnie face-to-face for a year, that's what he says. But, like, again, let's just add to the growing list of what people know about Luther, right? Cassie knows the ship and the face and the voice. Cyril knows the voice. Lonnie knows the voice in the face. I don't know. And something that Tony Gilroy said to Chris and Andy about, like,

as you make bigger and bigger moves. How much can you actually expect secrecy to last? Again, like we feel this is a one-and-done, one-season-a-done character, probably, and that Luthon is just like, Clay's concern is valid as he keeps pushing the boundaries of his secrecy here, right? The comp that you already made on the watch

to Luton as a startup founder was so interesting. And like then what changes when you hit the street? That was like, that was really interesting. He also called himself in an interview with Brian Hyatt over Rolling Stone. He called himself a disruptor. I just, I don't love it. I love Tony Garoy. I am in love with this project of his.

I think he's a genius. I don't like it when people call themselves disruptors. I have a bad Silicon Valley association with it. So, anyway. As we've said a few times, not like the funniest show, but I will just say on the one, the, the chuck front when Clayah said, I don't like it. I don't like the timing. And Luther replied, you don't like anything? I laughed. Yeah. You're like, true. Facts. And again, like, little moments like that show us something about the depth of their understanding, the depth of

their history and relationship. That was really interesting. And, like, across this whole sequence, I think we get a lot of the sense of the time that has gone into this and how long this has been a defining reality for these characters' lives. So moments like that really help. But, like, yeah, then if it's a trap, Cleo line, and the Luthan reply, well, if it's a trap we've already lost, which you teased earlier. Just difficult to overstate how great that line and that idea is. Because it's true. And he knows that. And so that reality, which only a couple episodes ago, we saw the way that the anxiety was seeping in. He took, I took, I took, I took under my ship. Was I insane? Like, the way that he's running through, the same checklist that you just did of vulnerabilities. And,

And only a couple episodes later to be at the point where it's like, this is where we are. And just like I've been telling Mon Mothma and other people, this is where we were always going to be. This is what's required. And it is like a hideous horrific thing, but I knew that. And now I have to say this out loud, if it's a trap we've already lost, because that's true. There's no other reality for him. What's he going to do? Not take the call, not take the meeting.

Put the railing back. Put the piece of railing back. Remove the mark from the fountain? You can't put the piece of railing back. You can't. Anyway, you can't get the cat back in the bag. You can't put the piece of railing back. But again, this speaks to sort of,

I do not think that Tony Gilroy, I think he's allergic to sort of very intentional Easter eggs. We get a Padme headdress sort of Easter. I mean, like, Luthon's shop is the best spot for an Easter egg. But a textual Easter egg, something like, it's a trap. It's a trap. It's a trap, one of the very famous Star Wars line. It's a trap, right?

We all want to do our Admonic Bar impression, right? But the follow-up, if it's a trap, we've already lost. Like, that's just deepening our understanding of famous Star Wars concepts and lines. You know what I mean? Brilliant. Lonnie takes a long walk. You know, it has to remind us a Cyril's walk. or Clayah's walk from before.

Long walk, long, long, long ride down. We already mentioned there's a bunch of non-humanoid people in the background on this walk, but one alien is just straight up wearing a long puffer coat and it, like on the chuckle front, Mallory, that cracked me up. Great stuff. Had a great old chucker with the puffer jacket. Lonnie, the Bluetooth conversation that Lonnie has with Luton in the elevator where Luton starts with congratulations on the first.

birth of your daughter and Lonnie's like, is that a threat? Yeah. It's such a great way to establish how fraught this is, you know, the most. Yeah. And of course, it is a threat. Oh, yeah. Obviously it is. Yeah.

You've become a father. It's not worth mentioning. Like, that's genuinely disturbing. It's disturbing. And, like, I love that Lonnie responded by saying, that's not fair. But I also love that, like, Luthon's right. Like, he starts with the very thing. that Lonnie eventually gets to,

which is like, I'm a new dad. I don't want to do this anymore. If Lutthian's like, huh, it's been a year. Why does Lani want to talk to me? Oh, he's just had a daughter. He probably wants out.

Like, that's probably, like, Luthan's thought process before he even put the Bluetooth thing in the elevator, you know? Well, but that's like the other thing with this whole, if it's a trap,

we've already lost idea. Now, this is a pursuit of victory for the budding rebel alliance, but like the idea of Lonnie being trapped, no way out for Lonnie. The one way out for Lonnie is to stay in. Like, you can say that Lonnie's already lost because there's no escape for him from this,

which is not the existence that he wants anymore. And like, this is where we get the first. This is, we get the first of the two, I think about you constantly lines here. And like, talk about a Hall of Fame pantheon spine dangling Star Wars line. I think the part of the reason that's so affecting and powerful and chilling to hear is because you know that he means it. You know that that's real for Luton when he says that, that this is something he thinks about every minute of every day.

Everybody who is a part of this. Everybody who can help him. Everybody who's a risk, a threat, a limitation. Everybody who may have to be sacrificed for this cause that he is. pushing for. Look at you, Anto, Krieger. And you're 50 men. Sorry, you're not worth it.

Listen, Sauggera does not think very much of Anto Krieger. So in the longer lens rebellion math, perhaps Anto and his 50 men are not worth. But again, this is the kind of math that the ruthless math that Luton

constantly has to do. we're about to get to his whole explanation as to why he's put in that position. Did you, I have a question about, so Lonnie is talking about, Dedra, codename access, looking for a stolen imperial navel, and then she says she's looking for a thief, a middleman. So is there a version of this, you know, and Luton is like, good, good, encourage that, she's wasting time, this whole thing. But is there a version of this, she's looking for a thief, a middleman,

where Luthan tries to set up Cassian as Axis, like give Cassian to Dedra to, you know, again, in that sort of math equation. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think we like have to be considering that possibility because we, there's no way to leave this conversation. Now, Lonnie's not a character, like he's been in the room in these ISB scenes,

but he's not a character we know or have a relationship with. Everything we're really learning about. He's no ham. You know what I mean? No, Ham. Everything we learned about him, we're learning it in this moment, really.

Right now. Yes. Yes. And yet, if anything, I'd say that, like, amplifies the takeaway because we are able to recognize

intellectually that we are asking ourselves that question, not because of an emotional connection we have to Lonnie, but because it is just so clearly the calculus that Luton runs through constantly as he's saying. So, you know, we chatted like over a couple of our pods about the Clea Velsene, all the

conversations about trying to find Cassian and like how are we reconciling, how invested Luton was in recruiting Cassian in the first place with the risk that he now represented to their security, et cetera. It's like Cassian and Lonnie are bringing different things. to the rebellion. They're giving Luthan different tools, different assets, different options for the future. But presumably the calculus is the same where like when Luton tells Lani here that he can't let him out, like that even as you say the words, like you, that was also chilling, right? He needs Lani inside the ISB to feed him information. We learn when he says like you, yeah,

yeah, sure, you've been lonely, but look how you've probably. from what I've given you, like what I've had to, this dear price that I've had to pay. And then you're like, well, how many other people has he sacrificed? How many other 50 fighters in the spellhouse plot corollaries are there across the years and across the history, right? And so Lonnie's hearing this and he's like, this guy doesn't, yeah, he thinks about me constantly. Yeah, he wants to keep getting my intel and using me inside of the ISB.

It's not easy to have somebody works six years through the ISB to get in that position. but he'll sacrifice Lonnie the second that it suits him. The second that it suits him. That's what's necessary from his perspective. And so he will do the same to Cassian. He would do the same to anyone. I think that that, like, has to be our takeaway for the character. You do it to.

There's no one that he wouldn't do it to. He would definitely do it to Claire, like, because he doesn't have kinship or love with anyone. We're going to talk about that in a very second. But right before we do, I just want to say, Luther mentions that vow again, right? Bell and Mon say we took a vow and he tells Lonnie you took a vow. We took a vow. I'm wondering if we're ever going to see that vow.

I would like to see it. I don't have to see it. I feel like we wouldn't have heard it mentioned in back-to-back episodes if we weren't going to see it. So the question is like when and in what circumstance do we get to see Cassian? Cassie going to take a vow? At some point, I feel like that would be like maybe a cool thing, a cool development. But like there's something, I think again, like about the kind of meticulous nature of that

language and what it implies and what it tells us. Like, you really understand. This is just another recurring thing. You really understand what you're signing up for. Like when, and you have the practical aspects of this and then the emotional aspect. So when Lonnie says he can't do it anymore, I had no idea how it would feel. That's what he says about being a father. Just like agonizing. This is just like anguish inducing. And it doesn't move Luton at all because we're thinking about what he told Mon Mothma in episode seven, which was like, I warned you when we started. what were my words turning back will be impossible. You knew where this was going.

You've always known. That's part of this vow, right? That's part of this shared understanding. And even him saying, like, he doesn't fess up to Aldani. Again, like even these people who are nominally in his confidence or potential partners like Saw was or Lonnie here, like he's not showing anybody the full picture, maybe other than Clea. We don't build on luck. that's what he says about Aldani. They got lucky.

We don't build on luck. Like the exacting, precise, specific nature of the way that he is going about building this every day. And the cost is a part of that for him always. That's why he's thinking about it constantly. It's 50 men. You're worth more than that. Oh, thanks.

I'm glad I'm worth more than that. What a horrifying thing to hear. Because people are just part of the equation. And that's true for the empire too. Too. Tolls of the enemy. I mean, the black cape is billowing. The gloves are on, Luton. It's very, again, I'll save, Toby talked about that. We'll let Toby talk about the sithy vibes that are coming off Luton here. But I just want to say from a production design point of view, I mean, like, all of this is really beautiful.

But Lonnie is standing in that turbo lifter. It looks like a coffin. Like the door is shaped like a coffin. And, I mean, it made me think of an interview with the vampire great show that we're not here to talk about. But, you know, someone's in someone's apartment. He's like, where's your coffin? He's like, you're standing in it. Like, the whole place is my coffin is really. Heroing. He literally says to Lonnie, you're trapped, Lonnie.

There's no pleasure in saying it, but you're going nowhere. I love Stalin's delivery of that. Lonnie hits us with basically Queen Allison's Where's Duty? sacrifice and Luthin has an incredible comeback. Steve, will you play this for us, please?

And what do you sacrifice? Calm. Kindness, kinship, love. I've given up all chance at inner peace. I made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation

I wrote 15 years ago, for which there's only one conclusion. I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my my eagerness to fight that set me on a path from which there's no escape. I yearn to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost. By the time I look down, there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my, what is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone. his future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know

I'll never see. Now the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or all the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything. You'll stay with me, Lonnie.

I need all the heroes I can get. Chills. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Uh, uh, in the running for the best scene in Star Wars history.

Like sincerely. I think it might, it's hard. I need more time with it, but it's, yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely up there. I don't want to impulsively declare this just because I like, my heart was pounding out of my chest when I first saw it and I rewound it four times to watch it again and again and again. But it's up there. It's in competition. It is. I think that this, this scene will stand the test of time.

This is something that we will be calling back to and talking about for a long, long, long time. Can I just tell you that, like, I know for a fact. There are so many high school drama nerds who are going to use this monologue for their audition pieces. Like, this is a, this is a, this is Shakespearean audition monologue. I love it. I burn my decency for someone else's future. Unbelievable. I've made my line.

I've made my mind a sunless space. I mean, this is like agonizing, just describing in essence, sacrificing what it means. means to be alive. Like the list of things at the beginning, calm, kindness, kinship, love. Like, that's what being alive is about is finding those things and sharing them. And he's sacrificing them in order to restore the possibility of finding them and living in them and enjoying them for everyone else. Also, Joe, like only one conclusion, that's another only one way out, right?

Only one conclusion. It's just another only one way out inside of this episode. And well, yeah, I mean, it's, it's an echo of the one way out. It's an echo of, I say the Shire, but not for me, Keno stuff, right? Like, this is what we're seeing here. And it is, yeah, you could go beat by beat, line by line in this thing and find meaning in every single phrase. Easily. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll ever see.

Like, you have to think of Jin and Cassian on the beach. Absolutely. But also Luke and the binary sunset, right? know. Were you thinking of your guy, Thanos? What did it cost everything? But Thanos thinks he's going to see the sunrise. That's the difference. Thanos can't wait to look out on a grateful universe. He thinks he's going to get to live in the victory at the end. And like, Luton recognizes that that will not be, that will not be the reality for him, that he's never going to get that audience or the light of gratitude. That will not be a thing that he enjoys. And, you know, again,

connects that prequel point you made because that is something that lands for us so much more powerfully because we know it's true. We have never heard of this guy before. We have never heard Lutheran's name mentioned elsewhere in Star Wars. His role in this did not make it down through history. It is not something that people talk about and tout. He is not a figure of legend and lore. And he knows standing here in 5B.Y that that is inevitable. He knows it. All right. Let's bring in our guy, Ben Lindbergh to talk a little bit more about this speech and about Star Wars speeches in general.

I'll just go ahead and make another inseparable English major point and say when he called himself damned for what he does, right? Then I was immediately thinking about Lucifer, specifically like John Milton's version of Lucifer, Paradise Lost, right? This idea, this radical idea that John Milton, the poet had when he wrote Paradise Lost, in saying, what if Satan was a rebel angel? What if Satan was the original rebel? and he is damned for saying, maybe God doesn't have all the answers and maybe I don't want to be supplanted by this guy Adam and maybe, you know, and like,

and the way in which Milton wrote his Satan, his Lucifer, and like Luther, Lucifer, Martin Luther, the German one, Martin Luther was like a big part of why John Milton wrote Paradise Loss. But this idea of like, it's like one of the earliest antiheroes because suddenly, like, you're reading Paradise Last year, like, does Satan have a point? Like, is that what I'm supposed to believe here? And again, it's Milton asking us to live in this, like, really uncomfortable gray area, which is good and or is constantly asking us to do to confront. Does a worst person you know have a good idea?

Or does the person whose larger ideals you align with, rebellion, freedom, have to live in these awful reprehensible tactics in order to get there. Ben, did you have a line, in particular from Lutheran speech that really stuck with you? I don't know if you can tell that in honor of Luton, I've lowered the shades and made my room a sunless space. Let's be honest, I spend a lot of time in sunless spaces. Sunni spaces, too much glare to see the screen in sunny spaces. But my mind isn't sunless, though. It's pretty sunny in there. This was just such a special scene. I mean, the fact that Luton came in, after Kino's mic drop moment and in my mind at least topped it is just incredible. What a flex to come in at the end of this episode after one of the very best monologues or speeches in Star Wars history.

And then say, I will see you your Keno Loy speech and I will raise you this absolutely devastating speech with lines unlike anything else in Star Wars. It's just one of my favorite scenes in franchise history, period. That made my mind a sunless space. I think that has to make us think of Marva. That constant thing that we've been talking about in terms of like the sanctity of your interior mind, how that can, like, you know, they can't reach me here. Right. I found my freedom, my peace is inside my head. And he's like, no, for me, it's a sunless space.

That's what's inside here for me, you know. But he's like he's saying he cultivated that too. Because if you don't keep the sun there, then there's nothing for them to take for. you. It's devastating. Um, anything else we want to talk about specifically? We got an email from listener M, and they wrote,

they pointed out this Audre Lord reference in Lutheran speech. A famous Lord line for the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.

So is this idea, I think that, like, Luthin has to use these tools of the enemy, but eventually this is, well, but then it doesn't sustain because the first order rises up. But, like, the more sustainable rebellion, as we understand it, is like, the hope be changing, the Barack Obama hope be changing rebellion, right? When rebellions are built on hope, like, that's what Luke and Leah get to talk about, not using the tools of their enemy to make devastating, like, lethal math about how many, how many Van Goghers men are worth Alani, you know, sort of thing.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about Rogue One and how central align, like, the past-on rebellions are built on hope moment is and for Cassian and Jin and their relationship and their respective arcs, but also, like, what's leading them to scarf in the first place? It's Galen inside the empire, working to take them down from within, with their own tools, to ensure that that weakness is present for 45 years of subsequent stories. So thank you, Galen. He made his mind a sunless base for Stardust.

Wow, I just heard like, anyway. Ben. Any last Luthan thoughts? He's, I think, one of my favorite characters in this franchise and the fact that he is coming along and doing this dirty work in order for the heroes to be a little less complicated. We've touched on that in a previous appearance of mine and you were just alluding to it there. But the people who are burning their lives to make the sunrise that they know they'll never see.

And then we can just root for Luke and Leia. You know, not that they are completely uncomplicated, but by the time they enter the picture and join the story, really the battle has been joined and the battle lines are very clearly redrawn. And this sort of accelerationism that Luton is engaged in here is no longer necessary because everyone's on board. And it becomes kind of an uncomplicated war if there ever is such a thing. And I think there isn't really. But people draw distinctions between, you know, this war was justified. this war was not justified. And because so much of Star Wars is sort of an allusion to World War II and there are just so many Nazi Germany illusions just visually and linguistically. There are clearly

a lot of parallels there and people look back at that war and say, well, we had to fight that war, right? We had to punch the Nazis in the face, essentially, right? I mean, there were terrible things that were done in service of that. But I think people mostly agree, well, something had to be done. You had to stand up to these people, but in Star Wars, the original truly, that's where you are, essentially. It's people who are blowing up planets. And I think everyone would agree that that's justified. You have to do something at that point. And it's not quite as clear cut right now. I mean, they are building the Death Star secretly, but people don't necessarily know that. There's still sort of this prevailing mindset that maybe we can just kind of get along. Maybe we can appease them. Maybe we can

work within the system. Maybe we can quietly work behind the scenes. And Lutland, apparently from day one, from the day that Palpi proclaimed himself Emperor, if you're doing the math here 15 years ago, he has perceived pretty clearly what was coming and what he or others would have to do in order to oppose that. And he did that math, and he was willing to live with the equation or die with it, as it seems likely. Do you like that use of the word equation as a Goodwill hunting reference? Because Stone Scarsartre a mathematician and a good one. Now I do. After hearing you ask that question. And I love it.

I mentioned Michael Clayton last week. If you haven't rewatched Michael Clayton and want to, I have to say that Tom Wilkinson's sort of like rambling monologue at the beginning of Michael Clayton has such like Luton vibes here. Obviously, Luton is much more in control of what he's saying here. But again, it's that Gilroy lyricism that comes through. Also, I saw a lot of people compare this speech to Badi's Tears in the Rain speech from Blade Runner. Again, just like an unexpected moment of poetry in a dystopian sci-fi setting sort of thing.

But we got, we got, I had already asked Mallory and Ben to do this little exercise with me, which is to pick our favorite Star Wars speech and surprise each other with them. But then we got a bunch of emails for people asking us to do that, including one for Brian, who was like, you know, what's the best monologue in Star Wars history? So I was like, we're already doing that, guys. So don't worry. So who wants to go first with their favorite Star Wars speech? I can go if you guys don't want to.

What if we all just picked Luton from this episode? I would like to believe that Steve would let me know if we all picked the same one. I just assumed that Luton was not eligible and that the prompt was other than Luton with the understanding that we all would have put Luton instantly. Otherwise. Joe, I think we're going to have the same one. I'm predicting it. Really? I feel like Steve would have...

Now, you and I had the same one and I switched. Okay. You're welcome. Oh. Yeah. Interesting. So then I don't have the same one as you, Joe, because that means Steve would have told me.

Okay. But I actually, but now I'm predicting, but now I'm predicting ours are from the same movie. That's what I'm predicting, but not the same one. What a journey. Oh, my God. All right. I'll go for it. I'll go first.

Go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's hear it. is me. Steve, will you play in mine, please? Jedi are romanticized, deified. If you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi's failure. Hypocrisy, hubris.

That's not true. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth's city as to rise, create the empire, and wipe them out. It was a Jedi master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader. And a Jedi who saved him. And I became a legend. For many years, there was balance.

And then I saw Ben, my nephew, with that mighty Skywalker blood. And in my hubris, I thought I could train him. I could pass on my strengths. They had bled smoke, but it was me. I failed. Because I was Luke Skywalker. Jedi master? A legend.

Okay. Great ship. I'll say, The Last Jedi, I was, like, weeping in the theater when I watched this sequence. And this is a sequence where I was like, wow, Mark Hamill could do shit. I did not know he could do. I think this is the best thing he's ever done is this speech, which is why it breaks my heart when Mark Hamill disavows the Last Jedi. Because he's so good in it. That makes me admire his performance even more, actually, the fact that his heart wasn't completely in where they were taking that character, and yet he still pulled this off.

He did this anyway? I knew it had to be, I knew I had to pick something in The Last Jedi because I think Ryan's writing is as close as we get to Tony Gilroy's writing in terms of like divine transcendent writing. I did not pick the thing that now I think that Mallory picked because we've talked about it before and I didn't want to like repeat myself. So I was like, let's pick a slightly different flavor of the same thing. But again, similar to what Luthorne is doing here, this idea of like failure, like,

you know, is so interesting to me that when he says that, mighty Skywalker blood or Luke Skywalker was a legend like interrogating Star Wars interrogating this idea of the Skywalker saga. I just find it so juicy, so powerful

and I just love it. So that's my pick. This was my runner up pick after I switched from the one that malpicked. This was my second choice. So we're clearly on the same wavelength here. We're all the same page. I love it. So wait, Ben, did you

did you have to go with a third pick? Or did you just say, fuck it. We're allowed to each pick the same thing. What did you actually go with? I do have a different pick. I did switch, but I'm glad that we're all thinking along the same lines here. And look, I know that there are a lot of people who agree with Mark Campbell and do not love the direction that this character took.

But first of all, I think that the refutation of this mindset is in the movie and in that character. So it's not necessarily that the movie is endorsing. everything that Luke is saying here. But to me, it's just, it's so fascinating to see this spin on the character. It doesn't read as something that couldn't have happened, given everything that happened in the interim when we were not watching Luke and he was having life experiences and some horrible traumatic ones. This was just such a fascinating arc to me. And you know, you get your redemption at the end if that's what you want. And I think that's appropriate.

But I'm so glad that they went in this direction. that Mark Hamill talked himself into it or acquiesced to it and gave his all because I think it's just great. Fabulous pick. All right, since mine's related, I guess I should go next. Hell yeah. Listen. I'm sorry. I have a smuggle.

I feel like if we didn't try to break the rules, then it's... Yes. It wouldn't be House of Ar. It wouldn't be House of R. So, Steve, can you please play my two related soundlights? Size matches not. Look at me. Just me by my size, do you?

And where you should not. For my ally is the force, and the powerful ally is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we not this crude man. Not this crude matter. You must feel the force around you. Here, between you, me, everywhere.

Yes. Even between the land and the ship. Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, hmm. But weakness, folly, failure also. You're also, yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is.

What they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters. Literally crying. Tears. So I love that all of us, our first instinct then was to pick that one. Yes. Like that that is actually we all agree on is the best. To be clear, it was the first one that I was picking and not the second, because

I'm a rule follower and I'm not cheating like now and bending the rules. Well, let me explain. One, it's just, it was always going to happen. So there's no explanation beyond that. But I did feel so sure that Joe was going to pick Yoda and Luke in The Last Jedi. The greatest teacher failure is Luke, we are with the Grove Beyond. I thought I'd have my bookend Yoda Luke moment. So the beginning in Empire Strikes Back on Dagaba.

and then that beautiful, just like, aching gorgeous culmination of their teaching and their relationship and what you learn over the course of your life and the fact that it's never too late to try to learn something new. And the presence of doubt in Dagaba and how that morphs and evolves into this embrace of failure in The Last Jedi there. I think that those two moments, one of the things that I just love, about Star Wars and being a Star Wars fan is like, I'm getting really emotional now, is just like none of these things exist in a vacuum, right? And we bring our experiences from one of the films, one of the years of our lives, our childhood, whatever it might be, into the next thing and the next thing, and it builds

and it grows, and then when we revisit it, we understand it in a new way. And maybe that's because of a new thing we've seen. Maybe that's because of something in our own lives. And like those two speeches from Yoda to Luke, those lessons from Yoda to Luke, one like this really quintessential ethereal examination of the force that you could say is just one of the most like quintessential Star Wars things, period, into something that then felt like it could only have been born out of the evolution and journey over time. like they feel inextricable from each other now to me. And I just, I love that part of watching Star Wars over the years. So that's my one pick because they're linked. And I think even like even if Ryan hadn't gone exactly in that direction with Luke,

which I love that he did because I think the greatest future failure is, is one of the greatest lines of anything ever. But even if Ryan hadn't done that with Luke, the rebellion fails in a certain way because the first order rises out. You know what I mean? It's like the, the, JJ had already said in most of it. in, you know, in this trilogy that the rebellion happens. We win. Oh, no, the cycle of history repeats itself. And so what do we learn then? This is something we talked about with Obi-Wan.

Like, what lessons are there to be found then in the fall of Anakin that you can then bring to the rise of Luke Skywalker as, you know, that mentorship failed, but this new mentorship can grow from it? So, yeah. That's so funny. because I wasn't sure that you were going to pick the greatest teacher. I actually thought you were going to come through with like Bedou or like something from an animated series. I mean, listen, I came so close. Of course it will not surprise you to hear to picking. I did consider Bendu, but I was very close to picking Obi-One on Mustafa.

Shocking, I know. But I'm like, this is not really like a speech. I don't know if this is eligible. This is a series of speechlets inside of a it's a speechlet volley. a back and forth of speech. So I didn't know if it was eligible. Ben, I can't wait. See where you actually landed.

That's a great pick. I mean, I was going to go with the empire quotes. It just felt almost obvious, but obligatory. It just would have been malpractice not to choose those. It's just, it's such a beautiful monologue. I'm not a religious person particularly or someone who believes in the supernatural, but that speech makes me wish that I do because I feel like I'm missing out on what Yoda is experiencing there. All right.

I mean, sorry, can I just really interject and just say while I was listening to the half of Malspick that I resonate more with, which is the greatest future failure is like I've had my head bowed and I was like, this is to me, this is like this feels like going to church. When I hear these lines, this feels like church to me. Preach Yoda. Yeah. Yeah, preach. All right, Ben, what are you got? All right, Steve, hit it. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets.

The thoughts of not being with you. I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating. Stop the tape. Stop the tape. Oh, my God. I'm kidding.

I'm kidding. Absolutely incredible. I had to go with a gag pick first. I'm so sorry that this is not a video podcast. Maloney both laughs in like silent, astonish laughter. I was trying not to interrupt the audio. I didn't want to laugh so that it got the way of the audio. That's the funniest thing you've ever done bad.

That movie came out when I was a freshman at an all-boys high school, having recently graduated from an all-boys grammar school. And when I heard that, I thought, oh, this is how you talk to girls. So that explains a lot. Oh, no. Etting and Skywalker, my romance mentor. All right. And is happily married with an adorable child.

He did fine in the end. Hey, I mean, it worked for, it worked for him. Padmey fell for it. She liked it. I'm going to ask Jesse when you lost slice to repair. Haunted by the kiss. We've all been there. We've all had kisses that are scars, right?

And we would put it exactly that way. Okay. Here's my real pick. Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Placus the West? Hell yeah. He had such a knowledge of the dark side. He could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. He could actually save people from death.

The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be. unnatural. What happened to him? He became so powerful. The only thing he was afraid of was... Losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then his apprentice killed him in his sleep.

It's ironic. He could save other. us from death, but not himself. Is it possible to learn this power? Not from a Jedi. Iconic. Now I wish I had picked, Obi-1 on Mustafa two of our three picks would have been from Revenge of the Sith,

which would have been the most ringer-verse outcome ever. I just, I love that. I mean, Ian McJarmid, who's done many great monologues and speeches that could be candidates for this segment, He has declared this, I believe, his favorite, the most deliciously evil of all of Palpatine speeches. And just where it's set, you know, it was originally supposed to be set just in the office where they have so many conversations and then they moved it to a more atmospheric opera setting. It's just so delicious, deliciously dark. And it's subtle, more subtle, I guess, than most prequel writing is in that it's alluding to things that aren't fully explained, like so many.

many great Star Wars dialogue. There are just little nods to things that happened off screen that you may never know about unless you read the book that inevitably comes out. But just little things that you're picking up on here in Puppeteen's character and just how self-satisfied he looks, how he's gloating about what he did to Darth Plagueis and you feel for Anakin a little bit who's just being roped in and seduced by this offer, this potential for power. It's just great. I mean, it's just wonderful.

I love Darkpool. It became copy pasta and a meme for a reason. Ian McDermid's delivery there. And like something Toby Haynes talked about to me and also to Ben and Ben's great interview with him on the ringer was a note that he gave to Stellen on the speech. And so I will let him talk about it later in this podcast. But listening to Ian McDermott give that speech, I was like, this is a similar thing where there's such modulation. to what's going on here and such subtlety

to what's gone here and there's definitely other places in Star Wars where Ian opted not for subtlety and those also rule those are also great but this is a different

flavor I'm afraid you'll find fully operational but this is just so like so subtle so insidia is so perfect

I love it thanks for picking it Ben what a great picture Should we just keep quote in Palpatine for a few more minutes? It's so fun. No. No. Anything else we want to say about like speeches are writing in Star Wars?

I was going to say. Yeah. Well, I was just going to say that just to channel my inner Sean Fantasy here with a top five sort of Star Wars speech moments. I guess if I had to pick five discrete things, whether it's movies or episodes, TV for the best Star Wars speechifying, I'd say obviously one way out, number one with a bullet at this point. And then Revenge of the Sith, which keeps coming up here. You have multiple Palpatine speeches.

There's also the one after he takes power and he's in the robe and he's got the new voice and he declares himself emperor and that one's great. And then, yeah, the Mustafa scene, there was one recording we had, maybe it was for an Obi-One episode where we weren't even taping yet. and someone, one of us mentioned a line from that scene, and then we just all just quoted the entirety of that scene. Once you bring up one line, you have to just quote the rest of it. So, Revenge of the Sith, great for monologues.

Rogue one, obviously, not a surprise given the Tony Gilroy connection there. I mean, just Jin's multiple speeches. The rebellions are built on hope speech, of course, but also the one when they're landing on Scarf is also great. And that's kind of a tag team. effort where Cassian comes into and tells them to make 10 men feel like 100. That speech is great. The Last Jedi would make my top five, too, for the scene that Joe picked.

But really, both of Luke's lessons, that's the second one. The first one's pretty quality, too. And then lastly, I guess just to go off the board a little bit, just to pick something from animation, I was going to say, Clone Wars, season seven, episode 10, The Phantom Apprentice, which is one where just Sam Whitwer is just allowed to do his thing. It's just a-ich mall showing here. Maybe the best deliverer of speeches in Star Wars. And a couple great mall speeches there, one addressed to the Mandalorians and then one to

Asoka, where he's basically just pulling back the curtain, lifting the lid on Darsidias and Anakin and everything. So those would probably be my picks. Each of those has multiple candidates for this segment. Sounds like fodder for a future standalone pod, my first. Friends, we might have to circle back. Bring your best out the impression. Ben making fun of me for a related smuggle and then dropping a full list of five. To be clear, I'm not mad.

I'm proud and impressed. Yeah. Yeah. Those are deleted scenes. Those are just, you know, the rejected cuts there. He didn't learn that from a Jedi. Joseph, pick one knowing that this is exactly what happened. And if it had been picked three, we would have each had 25.

So. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, could I close this out with a short speech of my own? You might be three hours into this episode by this point. So apologies. But I just wanted to say something quickly about just why this episode, this series are so meaningful to me. Because I think it ties into this topic. And I've been writing about the show every week and kind of conveying my admiration for the artistry and the craft. But this is more about, I think, why it really resonates on a personal level.

Because I think most of the fantasy or sci-fi or superhero stories that are just so integral to our culture and our imaginations. And for those of us on this podcast, at least our professional lives are just institutions at this point that predated us. You know, we inherited then. They were passed down to us. And the characters and the stories and the universes were already out there, at least if not. the adaptations. And in my experience, there's always been a Star Wars original trilogy. There's always been a Star Trek, the original series. There's always been the Lord of the Rings trilogy. There have always been Marvel comics. I mean, my mom was born before all of those things.

Sorry to date you, mom, if you're listening. But for me, they might as well be Norse mythology. I've never known a time without these things. With the exception maybe of Harry Potter and maybe thrones. I just wasn't around. We weren't around when these dominant modern myths arose. And one great thing about them, which you were just alluding to, Mal, is that they don't really belong to any one generation. Each generation rediscovers them and puts it stamp on them and they become a kind of lingua franca, which is wonderful. Like, we share them. They surround us and penetrate us and bind the age groups together. And no one owns these things because they saw our reds. them first. Like, they should be big tents where everyone can congregate, even though that's not

always the case in practice. But because I didn't get in on the ground floor, there's always some sort of er text that each reinterpretation of these sagas is adapting or paying tribute to or subverting. We're just, we're always sort of seeing them set against the backdrop of previous versions of the stories. So I feel like I'm never experiencing the pure. uncut creation of something original. These are stories told within a certain tradition that's been passed down and they usually stick to certain templates, which is nice in a way. But for the first time in my life as a fan of Star Wars, the fictional world that I've

probably spent the most time in, I feel like I'm watching something that is not only as good as any Star Wars show or movie ever made. I mean, people are really entertaining the, is this as good as Emple? conversation, and I think that's a legitimate conversation to have. But this feels like it's almost bypassing the past few decades and tapping straight into the source. It's not an homage. It's not something like The Force Awakens that's kind of a fun, high-quality cover version of the original or something like the Mandalorian that's designed to evoke certain similar feelings or recreate a familiar magic. and it's not even something like The Last Jedi that is expressly responding to or subverting

some original text. And I love all those things. But when I watch an episode of Andor, it feels almost like I'm going to the theater in 1977 and I'm getting to see something that doesn't really operate within a certain framework established before we were born. You know, this isn't a tweak to the formula. This is a real reenact. invention. And it owes a debt to existing Star Wars stories in the sense that there's an empire

and there's a rebellion and it's part of the premise. But tonally, at least, there's just very little like it, at least in live action. And that's just been extremely exciting to me. And if I can tenuously tie that into what you actually brought me on to talk about, before one way out, I don't know that it would have occurred to me to pick the best monologues or speeches in Star Wars. I tend not to think of Star Wars as a really speech forward franchise. You know, it's kind of quippy. It's got a lot of one-liners. It's incredibly quotable.

But these big Shakespearean speeches or even an Independence Day style speech, you know, I mentioned in my article this week that keynote speech is the sort of thing that gets played at the ballpark before the bottom of the ninth when your team is trolling. Like, Star Wars doesn't have that many monologues like that. And it's not a coincidence that we were all gravitated. toward the same selections, not just because we're all wise and discerning and have exquisite taste, but also because there just aren't that many options to choose from, especially if you exclude Clone Wars and Rebels, and Or already has potentially two of the best, not just in their

text, but also in their subtext and delivery and the thematic link between them. And it also has the funniest terrible inspirational speech, thanks to Cyril's rousing, best of luck to us all, address in episode two. You know, they're just decades of these stories. We love them. They're very meaningful to us. And yet, somehow, this almost just skipped straight past them and was just like, well, what if Star Wars was something completely different from what you've understood it to be to this point? So all hail, Tody Gilroy and everyone else who has brought that to us. Because I didn't think that was an experience that I would ever get to have at this point after decades and decades of accumulated Star Wars stories, which have meant a ton to me. but this one in a different way, really, from anyone that we've seen before. Ben, that was beautiful.

Thank you. Absolutely beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. And I think it taps into, like, something I've been thinking a lot about Andor this week, which is this idea that, like, you talked about tent, right? A tent under which we can, like, put various Star Wars properties. And I think that they're, like, the gatekeepers around Star Wars, like, tend to think of it as, like, a little, like, dainty sun parasol.

And like only these few things get to fit under the definition of Star Wars. And what Andor is doing so brilliantly is really showing us how big that tent could be of like what we can put under the Star Wars banner. And I don't like it's sort of like the famous quote about porn. Like I know it when I see it. Like I'm no longer really interesting defining what a Star Wars is because Tony Gilroy has really surprised me with what it can be here. But it still feels like Star Wars to me. And so, you know, and it doesn't need a Skywalker or even a Jedi or even the word, the force in it to feel like Star Wars to me. Yeah.

It's a challenge that the gauntlet has been laid down, really, for everyone else who is working within this space. Not that I think we want everyone else to just produce carbon copies of Andor either, you know, as much as we've loved this. Like, it's not that we want to just change the template to this now. Right. And every Star Wars story is Endor. Part of the reason this is so special is because it's fresh and a surprise. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And so I want, I guess, future Star Wars stories to channel this in its originality, if not in its specific implementation. Whatever happens now, we made it. Ben, thank you so much for hopping on. And, like, as we've said, million times, if you're not reading Ben's columns every week on and or on the ringer.com, you're really cheating yourself out of in a tremendous experience. So make sure to do that. Ben, of course, we will talk to you next week. Can't wait.

All right, one last thing before we go to our interview with Toby Haynes is our usual segment of secret force user. You know, I miss hearing Steve go faceless. I know. Anyway. Force users. Force users. Secret force user, Malie Rubin. Who are you picking for a secret force user?

Again, I don't really want the force to be on the show, but if it were, who would it be? I'm going with ham. Go on them. Yeah. That's my pick. Will I be surprised if one day I see Ham wielding the force somewhere in Star Wars, I won't? Darth Ham. What about you, Joe?

It seems like a cheat to go back to someone we've already talked about, but it's Tedra. Like that whole, you saying her, like, being suspicious of Lonnie, like, that. gut instinct on her is something I'm very scared of. Yeah. A little searcher feelings. You know it to be true kind of quality. Supernatural shit. Spooky.

Spooky she is. Love her. All right. Let us go now to our chat with episode and like half of the series director, Toby Haynes. I'm going to start at the end. I'm going to start with this Luton speech that I am completely obsessed and enamored with and ask you about starting with the framing of Stellan in this, where he's wearing a black cloak,

and it's bellowing, and he's gloved, and it looks very vatery, very sithy. He's on a cow-wock, there's no guardrails. It's just very, feels very Sith-coated. I would say that it's definitely not an intention to, like, invoke the Sith as such, but it was definitely me trying to say that, you know, in order to do good, you have to do bad things,

which is essentially what his speech is about. Like, you've got to be willing to go to the dark side in order to, you know, affect the light, I think. And he's saying you're with me, you know, you're not, there's no way out. And I think that, and he's kind of saying about all the sacrifices that he's made and what it has done to him as a person. So that is pushing him into darker territory. And I think in the script it said he comes out of the shadows.

And it was more sort of, you know, this is a thriller. This isn't necessarily, you know, Tony doesn't necessarily write in kind of Star Wars vernacular. He's writing in sort of espionage spy thriller vernacular, you know. And I can't, you know, it wasn't for Star Wars. It would have been in a sort of underground, subterranean car park or something, you know, like the kind of thing from Deep Throat and all the president's men. But so because it's Star Wars, so we were looking at this sort of disused kind of water station that had all this amazing kind of concrete work. And one of the things when we went to visit it, they'd had a flood, which meant there was like a sort of two inch layer of cold water around the whole thing that we were wading through in order to see the place.

But what it did for me was that when I looked at it and the light shining off our torches and stuff, that it made the concrete that was just, you know, basically two stories high look infinite. Like it went through the water. When the water was still, it just looked really high up. And suddenly, and I saw where we're standing was the drainage area, which is that grill bit that he's the walkway that he's standing on. And I thought, wouldn't it be amazing if it just sort of dropped off either side sort of infinitely? And then you'd get the sense

you travel this far down, but yet there's even further to go, which is another kind of signpost for the speech itself. So, yeah, it was, I would say that there's a lot of signposts there that are intentional, certainly kind of thematically and textually.

And also it just felt like a walkway without kind of safety rails. It was very Star Wars anyway. And so, yeah, it sort of, it felt, it felt, Death Starry and, yeah, I mean, I guess it was like, yeah, it may not have been, yeah, a direct quote, but it certainly was a kind of a strong intention. Let's put it that way. I've seen you mention a few places this note you gave Stellan for this final big moment here where you told him, you know, the speech sounded a little too much like a speech and then he took it after he did it again.

And that's how you got the result that you got in this episode. And I'm so curious because you've directed these some great TV speeches, one of the best of all time the Pandora opens, the Doctor Who episode, an iconic speech that had sort of Tumblr in its grip for a, you know, a long time. So since you know your way around a big speech, what was it in this moment where you're like, no, now it's not the time for a speech. Now we're going to do something else. Like, what was that note about for you?

You don't have a lot of time to think about this stuff. So you literally are running on. I consider the director's position is you're the first member of the audience to be watching this. And you're on your own. So nobody else is commenting, you know, like, it's just you.

And you're watching this sort of great actor give this incredible written speech and you're thinking, why isn't it buzzing for me? Why isn't it suddenly, why isn't it making the heads in the back of my neck stand on end? And that's what I want from this, you know?

and I'm racking my brains. I've probably seen it five times now, like we did about five runs at it. And I'm walking towards Stellan, and I've literally, I've got about three seconds to think about this before I'm actually standing in front of this guy who's, you know,

an incredibly intelligent man, you know? Like he's a really, and he takes no shit, you know? Like, so he's sort of, he needs you to say something that he can do something with in that moment. And it's your responsibility to, you know, not kind of just say, that was great, man, do another, you know?

That's the last thing he wants to hear. He wants some direct feedback that's going to, you know, kind of help his work. And I think it was just so, yeah. So I was just thinking like, where else can we go with this? That, you know, is it a timing thing? Is it intonation? Is it like a tone thing? Like, what is it that's like, what's troubling me about this?

And I kept just thinking it's just such a great speech. It's such a great speech. And then I realized that's the problem, that it was a great speech. And I just said it. I just, you know, it was a real lesson in just trusting, you know, you can trust yourself to sound stupid almost and just say, look, it sounds like a speech. Which is sort of the most obvious thing to say. It just sounds like a speech. But he got it immediately.

He was like, oh, my God, thank you so much. Thank you. I don't want it to be a speech. I don't want it to be a speech. Give me a go. I need another go. I need another go. And suddenly he was running it, you know.

Give me another two. I want to do two off the bat, you know, like that. And he was so excited. And suddenly, because he was by this point, after the first five takes, he was like, I think I've done it. You know, like he was, the energy was coming down. But suddenly all new energy came back. And he did like two, I think he did three more takes.

And they were incredible. They were really, they have, they had that electricity that I was looking for, that sort of sense that you didn't know what he was going to say next. Even though we'd heard the speech five times. He was making it feel like he was saying it for the first time ever. And that was the difference. That's amazing. I wanted to ask you about a key component that has been really baffling in a really fun way for us,

which is the conundrum that is Cyril Karn, because he is this character who is defying a lot of boxes and archetypes that we feel like we fully understand. Tony originally said that when I sat down with him, He said that you've, you know, with Star Wars, you've kind of exhausted the black and white storytelling, the good versus evil storytelling is exhausted. You can't mind any more story from that. You have to go into the grey.

You have to find the grey scales. And what's grey, clay? And from clay, you can make something. That's what he said. So he was always interested in the kind of, that sort of moral hinterland, I think. And I think what was interesting about what he was trying to do. do was it was more than about the characters existing within this sort of gray scale, the gray world. But it was also putting the audience in a kind of moral ambiguity to some extent, where you were going

to find your allegiances swapping from one side to the other. And I think that's what's really interesting about what he was trying to do with Cyril, I think, and I think also there's an element where isn't he the most kind of dangerous form of fascist, where you kind of think there's a kind of a good guy there who's trying to do the right thing. And he's convinced he's doing the right thing. And it makes him a zealot. And isn't that the most dangerous form of fascist or most dangerous form of zealot, really,

is somebody who is absolutely convinced they're doing the right thing. They will put their lives online to sort of do what they think is right. It's just unfortunate. But as we know, from an audience perspective, they're on the dark side, they're on the bad side. They're for the empire. The empire is bad. But, you know, with people like him fighting for the empire, that is why the empire is to be feared.

That is why it suddenly got teeth again. And I guess that's what's interesting about, I mean, we always had this, it's a bit of a tangent, but we always had this problem with the Daleks on Doctor Who. It's like, how do you remind an audience who maybe haven't seen them for a while, why the Daleks are evil and scary? I mean, they look like, they look like pepper pot. moving around. They were designed in the 60s, the early 60s,

and they were terrifying then, but maybe they've kind of, are they scary in this modern age now? And so it's always a battle to remind people why the Daleks were scary and why they should be feared. And you had to make sure that characters around them knew that and understood that.

And then the audience would understand it too. And I think that's to some extent what we're doing in this show is that you're reminding people why the empire is bad. We've been just told the empire is bad. bad. The empire is evil. You know, you're on the side of the alliance. You want to, you know, find the empire, but why are they bad? What are they actually doing other than flying around in the

best ships, wearing the best uniforms, you know, like they look cool. Storn troopers. Stormtroopers are awesome. You know, like you realize how much your kind of sensibility is softened towards the empire over time because we've been collecting the figures. We've been like, you know, like the Darth Vader March, you kind of look forward to when the empire turns up in a movie. That's not good for you. That's not good for story. You need to have a reminder of what's, you know, what is there to be feared about them? Don't forget the evil and evil empire. It is the evil empire, absolutely. And yeah. There is a really interesting motif, a couple of motifs running through the season, given that you directed the first three and these three.

Firstly, this idea of the climb, which we hear, of course, a lot in this last episode, only one way out. But throughout, we've got characters climbing up or descending to great depths. It's in the script again and again. I'm wondering, when it's something like that that is a motif that pops in not only the language but also the visual. How do you, is your storyboarding at an episode, are you looking for moments to have characters go physically up a thing or physically down a thing? thing in order to hammer this home, or is that coincidental? Tony, look, here's me hazarding a guest,

is Tony's fascinated about the kind of whole microbiome of the Star Wars universe. It's not just about the kind of the knights and armor and the princesses and the high politics of it. He's really interesting in people at the ground level, and

you know, like you pick up a stone in this universe and you see what wriggles from underneath. And if you're looking that far down, then there's only one way to go, which is up, isn't it? So I think that there would be a lot of, you know, we're watching for people like who fall from Grace like kind of Cyril, and then you're watching people like Cassin, who's slowly rising out through Luton's network and becoming somebody who's actually an effective agent within that. So I would say the sense of moving up and down, the kind of social

like mobility. Social mobility, yeah. So there is that sense of social mobility through the sort of Star Wars society, I think is really kind of, what he's fascinated by. So I guess there was just lots of opportunities where you're seeing people climbing up. Now you said it, I keep thinking about Bix climbing up to the tower to make her calls. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's also that we don't have cars in Star Wars. So it's a sense of like when you're with your characters that they're traveling from one place to another.

Make sure I don't run out of time to ask you this question. So let me now hit you with a, what is your favorite Star Wars speech? or sort of large piece of dialogue, if you prefer, that is not in and or itself. Wow, but it's such a big question. My, look, my all-time favorite speech, which is not necessarily a speech, but it's certainly a line.

It's got to be hands solo before he's encased in carbonite. And, you know, when Leyes says, I love you and he says, I know. I mean, that's like, there's two words. That's not a speech, I guess. But it's just the most incredible two words in movie history, isn't it? I mean, I just love that. But I guess there's other stuff. There's, I mean, anything Jabba the Huss says in his own language,

I just loved as a kid. And I think, I think when you first encounter Yoda and he says that speech about, do or do not there is no try I mean that just became like a motif for me as a kid you know for like whatever you did I was always like the words of Yoda in my head I don't know those are great answers and since you

since you ended this episode on a on a big speech and ended the episode before it on what now feels like an iconic line of Keen-law's never more than 12 line And I love that idea of an act out in television, which is something that I think often these big shows that showrunners like to call, oh, it's just like an eight-hour movie, it's just a 10-hour movie, something like that. But you're a TV guy. You've made such great television. And I was wondering, especially in these three-episode arcs that you're doing, these chunks, which could feel like they're on little movie if you want to.

Like, how important is it to you that there remain a distinction between television and film and that this feel like an exciting hour of television or 38 minutes of television versus one step in a longer movie? I guess, I mean, these were real gifts, these episode blocks, because they were like many movies because they're beginning, middle and end. But also, I felt like I wanted to help each episode have its own identity that made sure each episode had an ending that was worthy. of the time that you put into watching it, that it just wasn't just a continuum. Otherwise, I would have been frustrated as a viewer. I wanted to make sure that there was a sort of poetic

kind of bit of justice at end of each episode that feels like a running, certainly in the first block. And then the second block, it had a real sense of build between each episodes. But I think I always take an issue with people who said, like, it's an eight-hour movie or it's a six-hour movie. I remember saying that about Jonathan Strange when we made that,

that it's like a seven-hour movie. But what's wrong with it just being a fantastic piece of television? You know, like it sort of, I mean, TV has kind of overtaken movies for its sense of, like, character development, for like the depth of story that you can tell. You know, like the general immersion into story now happens in the television medium. You go to film for a different reason. You go to it for spectacle. I think, or go on a day.

I think that the, yeah, I just think like it's sort of, I'm proud that we can, do you know what I'm really proud of is that we, well, was more just the schedule. This was a TV schedule. Like, so we were doing four to six pages a day. It was hard graph, and I shot for 100 days to shoot my six episodes. That's normally, that's the kind of schedule that you'd shoot a movie on, but you would be only doing a two-hour, you know, two-and-a-half, you know, half-hour movie, I shot six episodes of Star Wars that I think by and large you can watch

these episodes or watch parts of these episodes and think that they would have been, that would have been worthy of any movie of Star Wars and not really see the distinction between, you know, the content of my episodes and the content of the Star Wars movies. And so that's what I'm proud of is that there is no, there's not a lot of difference between the two things. And yet there was a hell of a lot of difference when it came to actually filming it. It was, you know, so that's what I'm proud of. But also, like, it was just such an incredible opportunity anyway, and I couldn't believe my luck I was doing it every day that I was walking onto one of those sets.

Well, like, I was, there was the fan boy inside me was just going, squeam! Excellent. Well, I hope you get to do many more hours of Star Wars TV. to come that would make me personally very happy. And thanks so much for chatting. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Lovely to talk to you, Joanna.

All right, that does it for House of R this week. Please come back, of course, to hear us talk about Wakanda Forever on Monday. Already in your feed is the Midnight Boys talking about Wakanda Forever. Also Andor. We will talk more about Andor again. Next week, it's just I'm very devastated that we only have two more weeks with this brilliant show. So sad. Thanks to Ben,

Lindbergh for coming on to talk to us about Star Wars speeches and making me laugh so hard with his first pick. Thanks to Toby Haynes, of course, for having a good old chat with us. Thanks to Steve Allman, who fielded many clips this week. I really appreciate you. But thanks to our Juno Rinkapal for his additional production work. Thanks to Joe Me a Diner on the social feeds. Mal, anything else you want to say before we go?

How's your mind? Is the sunless base? I'm full of the sunlight of talking about this wonderful show with you. I can't believe there are only two left. I can't wait to rewatch this whole season. And until we're back together on Mike in, I believe, three hours. Yeah, let's talk about the crowd. We burn our life for podcasts that we will never listen to.

I would say we're done with counting shifts, Joe, but we're not. There's only then and now. All right, yeah. Check us out, Prestige. We're talking about the crown. That's it. Simply that. Goodbye. Bye. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one.

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