The Ringer-Verse - 'Andor' Episode 12 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: November 25, 2022

Jo and Mal are ready to head to Ferrix and break down the season finale of 'Andor!' They begin with Mon Mothma’s role in the episode (12:00) before discussing the use of water (57:00) and explaining why Maarva’s speech was so powerful (91:00). Finally they are joined by Ben Lindbergh to theorize about the post-credit scene and talk about loose ends for Season 2 (119:00). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Guest: Ben Lindbergh Associate Producer: Mike Wargon Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

An Instagram post gets an unexpected boost. A TikTok catches in the algorithm. Sometimes that's all it takes to launch someone into internet fame. But then what? This Blue Up is a new podcast documentary that reveals how social media stardom is made. It's a different kind of fame. That's not always as glamorous as it looks. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Melissa Bereznak.

You can listen to This Blue Up on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's Disease, or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com.

is brought to you by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colhouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. There is a wound that won't heal at the center of the galaxy. There is a darkness reaching like rust into everything no wonder us. We let it grow and now it's here.

It's here and it's not visiting anymore. It wants to stay. The empire is a disease that thrives in darkness. It is never more alive than when we sleep. It's easy for the dead to tell you to fight. And maybe it's true. Maybe fighting's useless. Perhaps it's too late.

But I'll tell you this. If I could do it again, I'd wake up early and be fighting. These bastards from the start. The empire. Into the ringerverse, your nexus podcast feed, for all things. fandom. I'm Joyna Robinson and joining me today. Now that she has thrown her body on top

of the toppled droid that is B2 emo, it is Mallory Rubin. Malary, how you doing this morning? Oh, Joe, protect my sweet, be at all costs. Just love them so much. Couldn't love them more. Couldn't love them more. There have been a lot of villains in the Star Wars universe, but I think That piece of shit, Vanis Tigo, aka Ragar Targaryen himself. Top of the list for what he did to be in this episode. All right, yeah, we're going to talk about the finale of season one of Andor, and we are devastated that we are already here in finale territory. It has been a true joy to get to cover the back sort of half of this phenomenal season

of television. So we were here to discuss a finale, take a little look. back of the season. Ben Lindberg will be joining us at the end to talk about the post-credit stinger. Yeah, did you know there's a post-credit stinger on this episode? I didn't, the first time I watched it. So make sure you go watch that before you listen to us, talk about it. We'll be talking about that at the end of the episode. Before we get into this episode, do we, I don't think you know the title of this episode, right, Mal? We're recording this little early. It wasn't on my screener anywhere. No, we had the immense fortune of getting a pre- Thanksgiving screener for this. So we

don't have the episode title. Yeah. So we're not. We're not recording this like full of turkey and stuffing. We are banking this a little early. So this, I'm just going to call it the finale. Episode 12, the finale. That's what we're calling it. Do you have a guess on what it might be called based on? I am trying to think of.

They couldn't call it spark of the rebellion because that's the, that's the rebels. I could see it coming from either. Marva's speech or Nemex manifesto, and there are some recurring beats in Nemex words. So maybe like, remember that? Remember this? Try. Remember this? Try could be a good one.

The flood? Try. Yeah. We're going to talk about water. Climb. Why don't I just call it climb? You know? Maybe.

Yeah. Maybe we call the climb. All right. We can't. Yeah. When does that stop them? All right. Yeah.

Let's talk about programming reminders. Okay. This is the holiday week. But we still have so much content for you, right? The Midnight Boys already covered this. If you haven't had a chance to listen, we haven't had a chance to listen, but you should go listen to them, break down the episode. We heard they loved it. I did talk to Van for like an hour about it right after he saw it.

So I've had the van report, but I haven't heard the rest of it. And I've not lived until I've heard the rest of the boys talk about this episode. So that is on your feed. Mal and I will be back next week. along with Van to talk to you about incredible film Willow, which is on Disney Plus. I'm going to channel Nicole Kibbin and Cole Mountain here and say this. Wow. A common cultural touchstone, I believe.

With every fiber of my being. Oh, my God. Sorry, to all of the South and to Australia. I long for you to watch Willow with us. It is such a special film. We're so excited. We get to show it to Mallory for the first time. Van and I have loved this film since childhood.

So we'll be talking about it through a nostalgia lens. Mallory will be talking about it with fresh eyes. This is all in anticipation of the Disney Plus Willow series that Van and I will be back on Wednesday of next week to talk about as well. So it's sort of a double Willow week for you next week. Anything else in the feed that I should be mentioning Mallory that I'm not thinking of? I think that's good for it. now, just say, you know, stay tuned. If you're wondering what's coming, no better way to find out than by following the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and following the ringerverse

on the social media platform of your choosing, we're everywhere. So keep your eyes peeled for new pods, programming reminders. We will have pods throughout the rest of the year into the new year. We're not going anywhere. If you need to send us more Apple-based emails, which we get many of now on a regular basis. Hobbes and Dragons, Giva.com will be open for you for those purposes through the end of the year and into the next year. Spoiler warning, as ever, everything ever, Star Wars is on the table. Everything everywhere all at once, Star Wars, Rogue One?

Ever heard of it? That's a really important one. That's on the table. I'm out of it. A lot. Books, comics, radio plays, podcasts. I don't know. whatever exists.

Tweets about Star Wars. This is all fair game and all on the table. Any animated episode? Merch. Bad Bad Bad Tales the Jedi. QR codes. Who knows? It's all on the table.

Quick corrections department, not hemi correction department. You're talking about Anto Krieger last week who shows up in a hologram form in last week's episode. And I said because the person was not credited in the credits and the figure itself looked like a bit of a digital confection to me, I was like this is not a real person. But Lucaso graphic designer, Barry Ginjo. Let's take a stab at that last name, tweeted that this character was in fact designed by him, that he got scanned. He was wearing, I think he said, like multiple coats and they sort of digitally enhanced him in one way or another. but basically this is sort of a little fun little cameo from a Lucaso graphic designer. And he gave a shout out to production designer Luke Hull, who sort of hooked him up with that little cameo.

Luke Hull, just because it's not an episode of Andor, if we don't mention Chernobyl. Luke Hull was also the production designer in Chernobyl. Common theme. That did not change the fact that Anto Krieger is not going to show up in this show at all. And we find out of this very episode that everyone who wants to do. to Spellhouse died. So, R-I-P. But I just wanted to give Barry his flowers for a second.

Spell House, just a Zoom update. I mean, I like the efficiency. I like the efficiency. It could have been an email, and it was. Okay. Miro has some notes. This is the finale, as we mentioned. Written by Tony Gilroy, directed by Benjamin Karen,

who directed last week's episode as well, daughter of Ferrix. this is it. This is the end of this season. We'll be back next season, I think, for another 12 episodes. They've said it will span four years of time. So it'll be a much zippier, you know, hop-skipping a jump through Andor's life.

Do you think there's any chance that changes that we add more episodes or another season, given how adored this was? Or is that an impossibility? I mean, listen, Mallory. Bob Eager's back. So who knows what's going to happen at Disney. Assessing the slate. Yeah.

I mean, Bob, so, you know, if you want hot takes on Bob Chapic and Bob Iager, there's about 90-ringer podcast that you can listen to this week that will fill you in. You can listen to the watch. You can listen to the town. You can listen to Bill, talk about it, et cetera, et cetera. Sean and I even talked about it a little bit on Presti-C-V. But on a basic point of view, if you missed it, Bob Iger, who was head of Disney, retired, after extending his contract for years, retired, Bob Chapick took over. Bob Chapik is now out, and Bob Iger is back. The big difference between the two, really, really briefly, is that Chepic is more of a numbers guy and Iger is more of like a talent, creative guy, a relationship guy. And so while Chapik was making a lot of decisions that were just sort of cold, calculated dollars and cents decisions, I feel like Iger's the kind of guy who, you know, would say, hey, we've got a good thing going here.

Right. Let's do more of it. If Chapick's like, we don't have enough viewers to justify the cost, Iger might be it's worth it overall for the health of the brand. That being said, I think it was Tony Gilroy himself, who was like, I don't want to do this for five years of my life. That's the thing I keep coming back to, too, is I think Gilroy has his vision and has this story map and isn't going to artificially swell that just to keep programming Disney Plus. But I wonder if there will at least be a conversation about whether there's more to mind here. Because the pacing and really living in these arcs and in these moments with the characters was part of the real pleasure. of season one.

And so while I'm sure, based on how incredible season one was, that season two will also be extraordinary, I've absolutely no reason to doubt that. It's hard to imagine moving at that brisk of a clip after all of this time that we just got here. Yeah. So if we got another season, it'll shock you to hear, Joe.

I wouldn't complain. No, I mean, I think, I think I don't necessarily want it to go where I was welcome, but I would happily take it. make maybe three seasons. So instead of four years crammed into 12 episodes, it's two years per seasons. Yeah.

Love it. We're on the same page. We're workshoping in real time. I'll call anger. I'll get Hager on the horn right now. B, can you dispatch the communicate? We have an update. But not Alan Hore because he works for Border Brothers now.

Okay. So for the most part, almost every storyline this week is woven into a beautiful fish-tail breed that is Marva's funeral. But speaking of Bray's, there's one storyline that sort of exists outside of the main core story, and that is Mon Mothma's story. So in a section I'm calling the Braithiccans, we get two little wrap-up, two-and-a-half little wrap-up moments centering on Mon's story. So we start in the car, family car,

where we get the finally the payoff of is this chauffer spying on me all season question mark with the answer that yes indeed he actually is and Mon pulls this really clever gambit where she throws

Perrin all the way under the bus for the financial discrepancies in their account counting on the idea that the chauffeur will be eavesdropping on them and Perrin I actually believe him He's like, someone's like, I mean, I actually, for once, like all season, I actually believe Perrin that this is not something that he is doing. What do you think of this, Mao?

It's, I really liked this scene. It was an interesting way to, because as you noted, we're primarily on, on Farix. But in addition to being with Mon, we are briefly in ISB headquarters as well. and the ISB sequence connects to this sequence with Mon because Cloris funnels the Intel to Blevine. We've Bevin's back in the mix. Welcome back, Blevine.

So that was a treat. Yeah. But even though I thought what was really interesting about this is we've spent a lot of the season, mistrusting Perrin, waiting for some treachery or betrayal, passive or active, some sort of like overt,

disappointment in the guy we were primed to be disappointed in. We spent the bulk of the season worrying about the tension between Leda and Mahn and like hoping that they would be able to repair that in some way. And even though what's happening

between Mon and Perrin and with Mon and Leda and Davo and the betrothal that isn't a betrothal are distinct and our expectations for those characters and our feelings about the dynamics were sort of inverted leading up to this point, it all revolves around Mon

needing to deploy a family member as a bargaining chip in some capacity. And that's like something that, given that Mon is a character who went into Luthin's antiquities shop at episode 7 and really challenged what was necessary, and he turned that back around on her,

not only with the idea that it would be impossible to go back, but that she always knew what she was signing up for. This is really where we see that, like, boil to the fore with Mon. Like, what is the cost? What are you willing to do? And get this, like, whole parent gambit. It's amazing that we feel even an Iyota of pity for this guy who has just become a pawn in the larger calculus.

It is Bogo. Buy one, get one for family portrayal here because Ma'an is like doing extra credit, right? Because she still goes through with the Davo proposal, not proposal. We see her, you know, towards the end of the episode, walking up, she and Parent are dressed. Parent has been wearing blue throughout, but she is dressed very uncharacteristically

in this bright blue and gold matching the Davo family. colors assuing her usual white. So she's still going through with that. I had questions about that in terms of like, did that moment still feel tense for me given that Leda is no longer someone who seems like she would be resistant to it? We know it's still a hard decision for Mon,

but I had some questions about that. But I like your point about this idea of the betrayal is coming from an unexpected place. It's not Perrin betraying Ma'an. It's Maun betraying Perrin here. And I also, I love, you know, we've been thinking a lot all season about this motif that Ben Lindbergh pointed out, which is this idea of like, needed to catch your breath and breathing and choking and all this sort of stuff. And so Mon in the car before she does this unfastens her collar. And she's been wearing these high choking collars, you know, fashion turtle necks.

Diane Keaton would die for. all season. And she, you know, she takes, she takes a gasping breath and opens her collar and takes a gasping breath before she does this. Shout out Canto Bight. Love to see it. Yeah. I love to hear it.

Love a Canto Bight. Great call out. Yeah. Wonderful stuff. Wonderful stuff. Anything else you want to say about Mon here? So I think in terms of the following through with Davo and that arrangement. because the pairing gambit is successful here,

and Cloris eavesdropping as Mom anticipates, passes the Intel along to the ISB as she's hoping, and Levin receives it as she is dreaming that the ISB will of, oh, well, this explains the discrepancies in the account. You're sort of like, well, okay, box checked. But the Davo relationship is as much about the future and the necessity of keeping that tap on. And I was thinking back to then the conversation between Vell and Mon

in episode 11 where Vell expressed, and this is not about the $400,000 credit. This was about the $100,000 every month. I had no idea it was that much. And this Lutheran idea of rebellions are expensive and just the continuous nature of what is necessary, always have to keep the, we're going to talk about water a lot today.

And this is a tap that you have to keep on. Yeah. So to your point about did, and I know you didn't mean the plot aspect, more, the emotional aspect, given what we learned about later, and what we went us with later last week, did it still hit in full?

For me, it worked for a couple reasons. One, we've complimented the acting on the show a lot, and we've been very high on Genevievee-Mor-Reilly's performance throughout. Yeah. The facial expressions, the anguish on her face as the door opens, and Davo and his wife and his son are in there waiting. the look of happiness possibility on Lada's face, Perrin, a little tougher to read,

and Mon looking in a way that tells us not only what she's thinking about her daughter and the future, but the compromise that she has had to make with herself. And given, again, I think her role early in the season as the character who voiced discomfort when the fact that other characters were operating in that way was something she had to contend with, like seeing her reconcile the fact

that that's now who she is in a way that she needs to behave in choices that she feels she needs to make. That's interesting to me too. I think like we've also talked a lot about just the element of bringing our prior Rogue One or original trilogy knowledge into Andor and like still everything

we learn about Mon Mothma is so illuminating because this key figure plays key role in the rebellion and the event. and the eventual new republic. But like the family dynamics remain, I just have so many questions still and we have so many things to learn. So this feels like a really big moment

in terms of what will happen inside of this family unit in the future. I'm really looking forward to returning to my... I still think, you know, I liked this episode. It just felt a little looser than some of the like, tighter, more exquisite hours of television

we've gotten from this series. And so I'm trying to like see where I'm might find an opportunity to tighten up. And with Mon story, you know, we talked about maybe this season, the arc of the season is like a peak in 10 and then sort of a wrap up in 11, 12, similar to how Throne seasons would peak in episode 9 and then sort of do a wrap and checkup in episode 10. But I think, and we'll get to sort of more specifics, but I think my main critique of this episode is that we check in with more characters than maybe we need to, maybe just

because the show feels like it needs to have everyone. And I would argue, except not you, Clea, but everyone else. But like, I would argue, like, the Mon story peaked for me in that moment when Davo tells her, that's the first lie you've told today, and she's on the couch knowing she has to make a decision. And everything that happened with Bell last week, we did get this revelation about Leda and the braid. And this week, I would have maybe told. tighten it up and like put that all in one episode or something like that versus just the sprinkles that we get here. It felt it felt a little looser to me.

That's interesting. Yeah. I thought I really liked what you said about the Monvel conversation in episode 11 and how that really unlocked something new for Vell in terms of the Aldani aspect and kind of seeing and understanding and feeling the ripples. This for, for, For me, episode 12 worked better for the Mon plot than 11 did for me because it felt like the new element, which was finally making the choice and taking the step. And also just like a little bit of that, you know, one of the things I've really enjoyed and we love talking about across the season is like tracking the parallels across the, even as many, many, many storylines and plotlines and characters that's converged in this episode, the plot lines across otherwise disparate storylines. And, like, you know, in this episode, you have the ISB talking with ultimately misplaced pride about baiting the trap, opening the door. And it's like Mon is doing, Mon Mothmo's doing that too. She could be saying what Tigo had said.

And she's actually doing it more effectively than they are. Although that being said, you know, you said everything goes down with Blevine and ISB exactly how Mon would have hoped. I think yes and no, because in an ideal world, Bevan's like, well, that explains it. Close the case of Mon Mothma, but that's not what he says, right? He's like basically saying, a vulnerable parent feels like a way of vulnerability for Mon. So if we can leverage this information, even though it's fake planted information, but if we can leverage this against parent, and we can maybe get something more on Mon. I think it's both, but I think that's also why I liked it.

Because he literally does say they've made some odd banking moves lately. This would certainly explain it. Sure. But then. But isn't that also part of what's interesting about like, we've talked about this a lot with Luthin. He's this master puppeteer. But he does a lot of reckless things.

Right. And leaves himself vulnerable in a lot of ways. And like Mon gaslighting parents. Aaron and using him as this and framing him and then like and making that compromise with herself and having that potentially backfire or be wielded against her I think would be more interesting than it just working cleanly. No, I don't disagree. I'm not saying it should have worked cleanly.

I'm just saying it's a slight complication to this idea that like, oh, Mon came up with this gambit and it completely worked. It worked and Blevins like but also. I wanted to mention, before we leave Mon to head over to Ferricks, I wanted to mention this email we got from Natalia that I really liked about Leda and the braid and all of that. And Natalia writes, I love the choice to make Lada religious. I thought this was so true to so many migrant and multigenerational experiences. If, like Lada and her friends, our parents appear to have no devotion to any cause beyond a surface preoccupation and a keeping up of appearances, the pull to a bigger meaning slash calling might become even stronger. side note, my only gripe is there isn't enough evidence to me as to why every single time

Leda looks at mom, she's throwing daggers at her with her eyes. It just feels too over the top and dramatic, even for teenagers who can be very over the top and dramatic. Natalia continues, I particularly love it when Momatha says it's weird, it's stronger here than it is at home. That can often be the case with migrants in culture slash religion. Second generation kids might seek a connection to a home. They didn't really know.

They reconstruct what that means to try and find. as quote-unquote pure an interpretation as possible. It is such a sociologically deep reading of families and culture in a cosmopolitan, ever-changing, capitalistic world, and the reflections of the oscillatory nature of life really brought to the surface for me how many other storylines in Andor are also a reflection of that nature as all actions and reactions everywhere. So I love that idea that like, because in an earlier interaction with Leda and Mon, you know, Leda essentially accuses Mon of not really caring about anything.

other than her, you know, this, this milk toast career that she is witnessing from the margins. And the presentation of caring. Right, right. And we're sort of like, oh, the irony. If only she knew how much her mom cared about something. But like, yeah, this idea that Leda is swinging conservative, small C conservative for, you know, in reaction to the perception that parent and mom are, you know, lightweights. ideologically is really interesting to me. I love that.

All right. Karen. Good old Perrin. What a character. It is interesting because the mon stuff feels mostly disconnected, except they find a really clever way to, like, we check him with Blevine, and then Blevin gets immediately pulled into the Spell House update. And Lonnie is there, as Blevin and Legrette is the name of the other supervisor, discussed the

spellhouse trap. Did you... Do you think there's any chance that he's a spelphouse? by too for whom I can't say but like he's another you know guy with a face like yeah he is a guy right like you've been watching and tracking all season much like we had with Lonnie and then that of course paid off yeah and the way that he was looking at Blevine and cloris and listening and watching that exchange before he pulled him out for spellhouse I was like what's going on he I know totally I would not be surprised he I love your description of him as a guy with a face he is

100% a guy with the face yeah As you mentioned, Dedra's pissed that they killed everyone rather than like, you know, pulling people to be interrogated. As we know,

she loves an interrogation. She's like, my net is empty. Gorsd is here with his, you know, headphones of doom and there's no one to interrogate. What are we going to do?

And I love this response from our guy, Partigaz, who very dryly employs her. This isn't a dialogue, Detra. It's just

Lotus delivery. I think you want brief exchange, but like, yeah, her replying to that with, we get nothing from a dead body. True. Someone needs to be in the room saying that. Like, the kind of frosty, edgy, I have an observation and I have like on earth something, no one else in this very, like, a room driven by conformity has seen. I think for Partigast might be swiftly moving into insubordination always showing me up in a meeting.

Tori. Watch your back. Watch your back. Exactly. He just flat out says you're missing the point. Yeah. This isn't a dialogue, Detra. He's like basically if you want to interrogate with someone, why don't you go find access, babe? And right when he says find access, we cut immediately to Luth and hopping on a speeder and headed to Perix. And I just really need to ask you this a very important question, Malibor, which is how did you feel about both Deidre and

Luthan using the old Damon Targaryen murder cloak. I wrote in my nose, Damon Targary and murder clock, and I knew you would too. Yes. Who are best? Lutthin or Dedra. I still, you know, I guess I have to say neither in the sense that like they're both identified pretty quickly by onlookers. So they are not only not incognito, they are.

astonishingly conspicuous and suspicious looking and spotted within seconds by Cyril, Gassian, whatever the case may be. The Luthin disguise in particular was very amusing because obviously, like, for Miro, she's saying she wants to try to blend in. Blend. Blends.

Does a lot to track. My lunch may vary. For Luthin, who is throughout the season, very deft when it comes to the art of disguise and, like, even when no one's around, you know, we get that lovely moment earlier on the run where we get to see him move from one guy's into another on the Fondor. No one's looking but us.

With Wade Corner, yeah. Yeah, the smile, the way that he moves his body, really getting into character. And here it's just like, evil cloak. I guess there's a lot going on. A lot of pressure. So he wasn't planning to go to Farrix. In fact, Clay would prefer he not be on Farrags, but he's like, well, I don't have a costume, but I do have my trusty murder cloak.

I've heard it's all the rage. My favorite thing that, you know, I have some notes about Val and Sinta in this episode, but I love that Sinta's like, says that Dendra's dress as a local. And I was like, no, she's dressed as a very suspicious blonde woman in a murder cloak, Sinta. But we give us very frosty exchange between Vell and Sinta, you know, where Vell's basically pissed that Sinta didn't pick her up from the airport. And Sinta's like, I was working, though. Have you seen the traffic at L-A-S? Take a lift. The worst part about picking someone in the airport is how you have to just circle and circle and circle. Because if you stop, at least at SFO, the guy will, like, blow a whistle at you. So, I mean, I don't know what I'm getting from the scene other than, like, Sinta passes to Info to Vell, which Vela eventually passes to Luthan, which is that dead-res in town.

And I guess there's one woman in the ISB. So if they're like a woman's here, everyone knows that it's the woman who has been, who's been making trouble that Lonnie reported to Luton. What did you get out of the Vell and sent to interaction beyond? I mean, it's a further example of Vell being like, hello, our love life instead of being like, rebellion first. Yeah, love life fifth on my list, honestly. Yeah, I mean, that was what that was what hit me the hardest. in that exchange, the way that Vell is, because there are a couple of things throughout the episode.

You know, there's a later scene where she's very concerned about the blood on Sinta's hand and since it's like, it's not mine. That's just, I just had to murder Corv. Like, this is just part of the day. Please. Let's see some hustle. But here, the way that Vell is unable to reach the place where Sinta lives completely, right? Like there's that we take what's left idea

that we heard sent a voice at the tea shop midseason that Vell then parrots to Mahn and a subsequent exchange. And I think like what we're seeing on Vell's face here is that's maybe not enough for her. And I wonder what fracture is coming for them because like there's a sadness and a heaviness

I think here when you feel the longing from Vell's perspective to just live and enjoy the thing that they're fighting to preserve, happiness, love, right? The sunshine that they're not going to see to borrow a luthanism. And I think for Vell, she's like, I want to see it. I want to enjoy it right now. And if we're not able to, then I have a harder time existing inside of that sacrifice than maybe Sinta does. Yeah, and they just have such different origin stories, right?

Sinta lost her entire family. Vell is signing up because ideologically she believes, but I'm not sure anything has ever happened to her privileged, very rich family that she came from, you know. Well, and like I like this. I am still curious, of course, because like the fact that Mon and Vell are both in this, it's like what sparked that decision to take the vow for both of them.

I hope we learned that at some point. But I guess I like that Vell and Sinta are not totally aligned in their outlook and worldview and just frankly how they make it through the day and through an assignment because it's like, it's interesting. to see the variance inside of not only the rebellion at large, but something, and not only like a cell or a team, but something as intimate as one, one partnership. I think as I'm questioning these moments, and I'll have a few other questions as we go on, it's not that I question the inherent dynamic of Valen Sinta or the, you know, the inherent complication of the Blevine information reveal

or anything like that. It's that I don't know what Velin Sinta are really doing in this episode and really what more I've learned from them in this episode, especially we have this moment in the scene where Sinta says they or Luthin have to get Andor first. Everything depends on it. And then Vell and Sinta are very loose ends for the rest of the episode.

They're sort of aimlessly wandering around. And it really does feel like they wanted Vell and Sinta in this episode, but they didn't really have, you know, yes, Sinta kills Khorf, but in a weird side alley way that doesn't seem to have any real bearing on whether or not Cassian gets out,

You know, like it just sort of happens. And Vell, like, runs into the smoke of the riot, but then, like, then they just pack up and go. And it just feels like a little inert to me in a way that I don't want a finale to feel, if that makes sense. You want, you want more room for Cyril and Dedra to, to fuck in the pantry. Who's to argue? Yeah. Whomst among us would argue. All right.

Was it a pantry? I don't know. It was definitely some sort of storage closet. Lots of shelves to lean against or perch on. Inventory to rattle if we need to. All right. Wilman Pock, who we met in the very first episode, whose dad was hung by Tigo, that bastard.

I wrote in the line of fire in my notes, this is what I think of anytime someone is like building a weapon before some sort of big event and we get a weapons building montage. We get the hollow of his dad as a reminder. Like if anyone watching home is like, who's this kid again? Yeah, we get a hollow of his dad to sort of remind us who his dad was. And I love in a production design kind of way that there's just like an ordinary drill chuck is sort of part of this construction. It's all part of like the way in which Ferrix feels so very like it's, you know, we get this with like some of the instruments later, like it's future, but it's grounded than now.

It's just like how Star, you know, like when you think of stuff like that ice cream maker in Empire Strives Back, you know, the Cantono sort of thing, like how we use everyday objects and mix them with the extraordinary to give us a sort of grounded future for Star Wars. Anything you want to say on the Wilman-Pock front? You know, we had a moment with him mid-season. were mostly in that scene in the Bix Brazo perspective as they are watching and as Bix is learning what happened to Poc and piecing together

that her usage of the radio sparked this. And we see Poc's son fighting and challenging the imperial officials, the troopers. And in that moment, it made me think of the flashback. Revisiting it all in Peking, it makes you think of Cassian and the flashback we got to a young Cassie, yes, charging toward the troopers who were posted on pharix. And I think, you know, there's a very literal horror to what is unfolding here.

But it made me think, like, in this moment and many other times across this episode when you're thinking of something physical and tangible, but also human and the weapon that you forge, like that luthan idea from episode seven, has anyone ever made a weapon that? wasn't used. Very present across this episode in terms of people putting into the field something that had been those pockets of fomenting that Mosque likes to talk about. I'll say, by the way, Joe, episode seven, I think has the most key lines of the entire season.

It's the one like thinking through the finale and thinking back on the entire season. It's just there are so many key ideas and key lines from Luton, from Mon, from Marva, from Cassian, from Bix. That is just a jam-packed episode of goodies. Episode seven, but I also found it really rewarding, too. I didn't have time to rewatch them, but I went back and read the transcripts for episodes one through three, and I found that really rewarding as well.

All the Farrak stuff, especially since, you know, we're here with Wilman Park, Nerchi, who, you know, had debt-settling beef. Yeah. Cagia made a fool of in episode one. He comes back to play kind of a role. like he narcs on Cassian, but then it doesn't really result in anything. But like, you know, Nertie's here playing a role. Zahn, Pegla, like all these guys are there in episode one, you know, so.

I'm rewatching the season. Like, I was really struck. First of all, I'm going to say, I love this fucking love to this season of TV. What an incredible season of television. Can't say enough. On that, we wildly agree. Yeah, yeah. Just remarkable.

We have, I think, you know, rightly and understandably spent a lot of, a lot of time talking about the Narcina 5 arc and how extraordinary those episodes were. And really from like episode six, the eye, that like six to 10, just unrelenting run of excellence. Man, like episodes four and five, the beginning of the Aldani arc, some of those quieter episodes that are just, and seven is I think, because it's a swing episode, as you've noted before. I think these episodes that are rich and steeped in conversation, because five, of course, has like that amazing, Nemek, Cassian. conversation. There are a couple in four and five, the skiing conversations, etc. Like, there's not a moment in this season of TV that doesn't teach us something or ask us to think about something important. And it is just like whether the pace is frantic and the

plot is humming, mechanical whirring, or we're sitting on a cliff side talking about the nature of existence. Like, it is in any pace, at any frequency, it is just like, really, really, an incredible achievement and feat. And I think it's something that we will enjoy revisiting and rewatching and probably appreciate more on subsequent rewatches as we go, which is just like, what an incredible delight as Star Wars fans to have this, to have this gift that is now a part of our experience. And I think a lot of people felt like one through three were a little slower. You know, a lot of people I know who watched screeners before I did, you know, and they gave us four episodes as screeners, right? And a lot of people I know who watched this first four said,

well, one through three are kind of okay, and then four kicks into another gear. And I know a lot of people felt like one through three was, you know, the first ferricks arc was a little bit more subdued than the rest. Or you're getting your bearings, whatever the case may be. But I completely agree with you that on a rewatch,

you know, because we rewatched, or I rewatched it all when we stopped covering the dragon rings of power and pivoted back to Andor. I was like, I'm going to need to rewatch this first episode. So I have watched them again. I just didn't watch them a third time this week.

But, like, you know, even then it was a rewarding rewatch. And I also, I mean, like, we just got through a bunch of my nits to pick and now we're going to hit a bunch of stuff that I love. So, like, let me just be clear. I did love the season of television. I really like this finale. But if, like, episode 10 is an A plus for me, this is like an A minus or a B plus. And that's still great.

But it's not, like, as good as the show can be, I think. But let's get to something I loved, which is Cassian visits Clem's Brick, sort of the dead of night as he gets into town. And we've just learned in the last week's episode sort of what this concept is. And so as soon as we see him at the brick, like we understand this is how you go visit your dead in Ferricks. And again, that idea of putting your dead in the very foundation and the very walls of the town means that not only is everyone who's part of the Ferris community, always part

of the Ferris community, you're always remembering them. You were always thinking about them as you walk past their bricks. The graveyard is everywhere in Ferris. There's no one place you go to visit your dead. It's everywhere all the time, you know. And Marva touched that we're going to get back to this episode seven, as you point out, thing that Marva said about Clem's death and how she avoided certain parts of town. You know, but for everyone, there's reminders everywhere of their dead and their loved ones.

So we get this sweet little sad flashback of Clem and. young Cassian, you know, working on some equipment. Mike, can we hear this from Clem? You know, why do they don't make this anymore? Because I'd rather sell you a brand new system at ten times the price. I mean, I don't know we go. 60, 70. Just sitting there.

500 credits each. People don't look down the way they should. I don't look down. I don't look past the rust. Not us, no, man. Eyes open. Possibilities everywhere. Okay.

So in this episode where obviously Marva has a lot to say from beyond the grave, I love that we also get this, you know, we get both of Cassian's parents sort of imparting words of wisdom to him from beyond the grave. And there's a lot here in what Clem says that that radiates out to the larger themes of the show. Yes. People don't look down the way they should. Don't look down. Don't look past the rust. Marvel will also mention Rust in her speech.

And again, as we talk about water and industry, it's an interesting thing to talk about Rust. But people don't look down the way they should is a theme that you and I have talked about a couple times in this season. As I'm fond of comparing Cassie into Aladdin and saying riffraff street rap, but this concept of like the empire doesn't even occur to the empire at this point. Right. that two fishermen and Narcena

would be so pissed about the fish being poisoned, the water being poisoned by a prison in their water that they would, you know, help Cassina and Melchie escape. You know, they aren't looking in the corners of their eye for the, you know, where the threats might possibly come from.

And then also, you know, just so you know listeners, Mallory and I wrote the identical thing in our notes about Clem's comment about, you know why they don't make these anymore because they'd rather sell you a new one at 10 times the price. That's like Apple's entire business model. So I hope that that's what Tony Gilroy was thinking about when he wrote that line. Mel, what do you want to say about what Clem has to say here? Oh, I loved this scene.

this was really special and really moving. I agree with everything you said. You have noted many times how a show that is called Andor is really an ensemble story, right? And like there are a lot of different key players who are at the center of our attention in the finale and across the episodes. This was an opportunity to just linger in for a moment on D.E. Diego Luna's face, like on Cassian Andor's face as that tear trickled down his cheek and to think about one of the earliest and most impactful experiences and losses of his life, losing clam.

But not, as we know, the first. Not the first. His own parents, his sister, everything on Canaria. And that was one of the things that, like, it made me think of, too, this lesson. Like, why show us this, you know, of all the things that we could have seen? Why is Cassian thinking of this? he touches Clem's brick. And, like, thinking about how Cassian came into Clem and Marva and Bea's life in the first place,

we still have some with much love and respect to Marva. Some notes. An icon who we adore. We still have some did Marva kidnap Cassian questions about this story? However, we'll put a pin in that for a second. This idea of scavenging, of looking to make use of something that somebody else has forgotten or tossed aside is how these people all came together in the first place. That's what Marva and Clem and B were doing there. They were looking for those fuel cells when they found Cassian. So there's like that, which I think is really nice. You know, the actual physical thing that they are working with and this idea of like they don't make these anymore. It made me think of Nemek and his appreciation for old technology.

and his fear and avoidance of the kind of technology that the empire controlled, because it's like, when do you shift from the thing that you control to the thing controlling you and how important it is for the characters to always be mindful of that? So, like, it made me think of that, too,

which I really liked. And, you know, there's that in terms of the, like, looking down, there's that, like, surprise from below Nemick element, too. So Nemek was very top of mind for me in this scene and in this episode, obviously, of course, in the incredible manifesto passage read that we get later. But like the rust of pharix, we've talked a lot about the gloves,

the work gloves on the wall all season long, like working with your hands, making things, shaping things, the people who build and craft and mold made me think a little bit of our rings of power chats about like sub-creators and building and forging rather than tearing down, right? And like the power and importance of that,

but also then when we connected to the brick and like Brazo's saying to be, you know, she's in the stone now like mixed in, like mixed in with the mortar and that connection between the people and the place. And then in terms of that, that last idea of eyes open, possibilities everywhere. Yeah. We, there are so many moments across the season. One Way Out is obviously like the most iconic. But they'll had a version of that. Luthin's only one conclusion like this reinforced, this reinforced theme throughout the season of, one path, one path, the path of the rebellion. But within that, there are so many different paths that you can forge for yourself. And that idea of possibilities everywhere, I think, broadened our understanding and embrace of one way out in a way that is actually really important. So I just, I just loved this scene. I love, yeah, me too. I love this idea, as you point out, that, like, Clem and Marva found Cassian, someone who had been discarded. And, and, you know, and, you know, kidnapped him, yes. And also, oh, Marva.

I mean, listen, no one's perfect. Did Marfa do a lot of good and inspire the people of Ferricks? Yes. Did she get kidnapped Cassian from Canari and separate him from his sister, a wound that continues to fester inside of him to the stay? It happens. Also, yes. Yes. But yeah, that he is the thing that they are building up and they are molding and they are saying is not worth throwing away.

And that this is the entire ethos of this town, this town's entire, this is a working town. They all have one industry that they do. And so their entire life philosophy is centered around this idea of turning other people's trash into saligible treasure. Yes. And I love rereading the episode one transcript. I love this interaction with Cyril, our guy, Cyril Karn, and one of the premorm employees who asked Cyril if he's ever been in his favorite box. Yeah, and I like ordered myself some blue noodles.

Yeah, I ordered myself some blue noodles and I just like rifled through his private box. Oh, to rifle through Cyril Karn's private box. But this is, this pre-more employee says to Cyril about Ferricks, have you ever been there? And Cyril says, what difference does that make? And he says, they have their own way of doing things, you know? And this is like, this is again a theme we've seen over and over again, the people of Eldonnie. You know, these people have their own way of doing things. And in this episode, as Tigo and these other ISB pieces of shit tried to

win a way, you know, like the way in which the Aldani eye ceremony has been whittled down and whittled down and, you know, to near nothing, which I love the, when Tony Gilroy gave his interview to Chris and Andy, he talked about how that was like a production necessity that they couldn't, originally was meant to be a massive ceremony with a ton of people and that they couldn't get that many people. And so they're like, oh, we'll make that the plot that they have, you know, shaved away attendance at this Aldani festival. And so the ISB does it very clumsily in this episode.

It's not a gradual sanding down. They tighten the fist and try to choke the daughters of Farix, et cetera, into accepting a much smaller funeral in their time. And the people of Ferrics are just like, no. One last thing I want to mention this section, of course, is that, you know, we'll get a climb in the dialogue mentioned later. From good old Cassie under, but we get one more climb over Bix's wall from Cassian, just as he did in episode seven and she's not there. And Pegla's there.

And this moment where Pegla is saying he's watching it before keeping an eye on the place until we sell it, which just means that Pegla and Brasso and the rest have given up hope on getting Bix back, right? Like that's, you know, until she gets back, until we figure out how to rescue her. until we find a way to free her, it's we're going to sell it because they have her and there's no way we can get her back, right? Yeah. Cassian's like not so fast. Yeah. There's like a, you know, the holding on to the idea that they have friends in the hotel and there's still information funneling. But like, yeah, nobody has actually gone and tried to get Bix out of there.

I really loved with Pegla here also when Cassian to briefly, very briefly, very briefly, step ahead when he runs in to somebody else from town in the hotel when he is actually making his rescue attempt. Like, you think back to the conversation the last time he scaled that wall and Fad Bix, their conversation again in episode seven, where she tells him, the troopers aren't going to have to find you. Someone's going to turn you in. And so many times in this episode, there's a chance for somebody from Farrex who sees Cassian,

who has an interaction with Cassian. obviously, good old nurch. Good old nurch. Nurch. Why? But most people help. Help.

They help Cassian. It's that the forged reckoning, the banging on the wind chimes, turning into the anvil pounding and the drumming of the marching band, the way that reckoning and the sound of that reckoning builds. And they ultimately choose to support each other and forge that shared pursuit,

which was like a really lovely way to circle back to that idea. I think particularly because Cassian was so flummixed when Bix told him that and like having to confront the fact that he brought the empire down onto Ferricks into their home, into their way of life. And like there's a version of a character where that then stops him from ever going back. But he told Marva he would come home and he did.

And at the end of the episode, like, he tells Bix that he'll find them. And, like, now with casting where we are with him, like, I believe that he will. And that's such a cool evolution of his character inside of one season of TV. I do have questions about that because, like, his next move is to go to Luton and be like, kill me, kill me, or take me in. And so I guess like, you got to get the would-be murderer, the would-be, the guy who's hunting you off your back so that you can then go find your friends on their moon. Be with Sweet B, who deserves a fucking. Ganges Moon. I just want to let you know that I, Ganges Moon, which is allegedly where they're going.

I just want to let you know that I go, as of when I Googled this last night, does not exist anywhere. Did you, yeah. So I had a moment where I was like, could this be the moon that Skeen mentioned to Cassian is like a safe place to hide? But I don't know that that makes. I don't know that that makes sense. Because this seemed like maybe it was a little bit more proximate and a thing that everyone would know about. So I don't know. It just sounds so familiar.

I don't know why, but it does. But, you know, let me just tell you, as of Monday night this week, Wikipedia had not a thing to say about Ganji Moon. So there you go. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injecture. or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin

or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections,

or lower ability to form. or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit Tramphiatoradio.com. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market.

Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce, and some. some very tasty, limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items.

Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods. food's market. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies.

Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa.

40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. All right. I've already previously on this podcast told you, Mallory, about my weird thing about Alex Lothar's voice and how much I love it.

So if you think we're not going to listen to the entirety of Namix manifesto speech, his voice memo from Beyond the Grape for Cassian here, you are incorrect. So let us listen. There will be times when the struggle seems impossible. I know this already. Alone, unsure, dwarfed by. the scale of the enemy. Remember this.

Freedom is a pure idea. It occurs spontaneously and without instruction. Random acts of insurrection are occurring constantly throughout the galaxy. There are whole armies, battalions, that have no idea that they've already enlisted in the cause. Remember that the frontier of the rebellion is everywhere, and even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward. And then remember this. The imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural.

Tyrion requires constant effort. It breaks. It leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear. Remember that. I know this. The day will come when all these skirmishes and battles.

As moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empire's authority. And then there will be a war. be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. Remember this. Try. So, beautiful, gorgeous, wish you were here.

As we listen to this, in the background, what we hear are the rumble of thunder and rain pattering. And as we promised earlier, we were going to talk about sort of this recurrence of the water motif in the season of Andor,

Nemek talks about these moments of giants will have flooded the banks of the Empire Authority. It talks about tyranny being authority is brittle and tyranny,

this idea of them as a flimsy dam holding back the flood and the tide of rebellion and revolution. I already shouted them out earlier this season but I want to do it again.

A more civilized age this podcast I've really enjoyed listening to as their coverage of Andor and they shouted out. Ben Lindberg's great interview with Toby Haynes this last week. So, you know, it's a mutual love fest. But they have all season been talking about this water imagery as it pertains to Cassian.

The flood, dam breaking rain, baptism imagery. We start with Cassian in the rain at the beginning of the season. There have been so many moments, the freaking swim off Narcina. You know, there's just like all these. Needing to flood the floor by breaking the bathroom pipe. Yeah. Exactly. There's just all these moments of.

and him emerging from that flood, like he's already completely wet before he gets into the water surrounding Narcina. And so I want to resurface a quote that I meant to talk about in the prison break episode, but didn't get a chance because there was so much we wanted to talk about,

but I'm going to refloat it. It's from the Shawshank Redemption, the way that we talked about a bunch of times. I see what you did there. I don't think I missed it. This is one of the, an all-time line from the Shawshank Redemption and a movie with a million.

in all-time lines, but Morgan Freeman read, it says, Andy Dufrayne, who crawled through a river of shit and came out clean on the other side. What is the iconic image from Shawshank Redemptions? It's Tim Robbins in a full Jesus post in the rain, having escaped Shawshank. And so this idea of prisons, escapes, and this education of Cassie and Andor and a baptism into a new person, a hero of the rebellion from this. sort of womanizer, you know, penny ante owes people money kind of guy that we met at the beginning of the season. What do you think of this of this water motif that we're getting here,

Mel? I think that everything you just said is lovely. And I think that this pairs nicely with, you know, if we think of, again, hard not to hear when we're talking about his manifesto and his voice memos are dynamic and that threat from above with a tie fighter's threat from below, setting up Val and Sinta under the water, climbing up that surprise from beneath through the water. Where are you not looking? What can you mask? But also can't swim and instantly iconic pantheon keynote moment. And the risk and the threat that the feeling of drowning can present the idea that something might flood in and wash you out.

like how can you get through that? I think it ties in a little bit with the idea of the climb because the climb is what takes you up above, maybe the water that is pulling. And this whole scene, the cuts, I think one of the like quietly best things about Andor is what we cut to as we're listening to something

or what audio plays over something we're seeing and the way that we juxtapose and thus heighten these thematic ties between the storyline. It's just wonderful. it's like so amazing to hear this and to feel like it could have. I mean, we get so much more after it,

including yet another absolutely all-timer of a speech from Marva, another episode with two real doozies on the speech front. But like, you could have almost ended here with Cassian listening to this and looking out and on that word try. And like, it's such a perfect culmination of that education of,

casting the end of our idea throughout the season because like and he's looking at and we're thinking of we know the future like we know what he doesn't yet we know what's going to happen in rogue one but the thing that he knows is everything that he's been through we we have and he has as well that conversation with tagga back on the prison like before you die fight and that try idea and ending I mean there were so many lines of this this nemic stretch that were incredible but I think like we have to talk for a minute about remember this try because one of our

one of the things we love to bond over in Star Wars fandom Joe, one of the things that we really adore about Last Jedi and one of the things that I think we genuinely respect in new Star Wars installments is like not being afraid to challenge a classic Star Wars idea. Right? Do or do not?

What is one of the most famous lines in not only Star Wars but stories? It's that. It's Yoda's do or do or do notthers. or try. And so to say instead, try. Like, that is so key. Like, the only thing there is actually is the decision to give a shit and the decision to try to make a difference and the decision to live your life a different way and the decision to like do what Kino said and help pick somebody else up and help them find their way forward to. So that was incredible. And like, I think really,

really important. And there were so many things in this speech that made me think of other moments in Star Wars, not in the like we're reaching for an Easter. but just in this totally organic, authentic, fully realized sense of wholeness and mission. Like the random acts of insurrection are occurring constantly throughout the galaxy. There are whole armies battalions that have no idea they've already enlisted in the cause. Not only do we think then of like Luton looking down at everything that's happening in Ferrix and he's realizing that too, even though he's not listening to Nemex's words, I thought of like, our pals from rebels, you know, our pals, the specters,

joining up with Phoenix Squadron and realizing that they're already a part of this larger thing and just didn't know it. And like how cool those moments are where you see the size and shape of something that you are helping to forge in real time and how amazingly empowering that feels. The Everywhere line, remember that the frontier of the rebellion is everywhere. Made me think of Marva in that conversation again from episode seven. We'll find a place they haven't ruined yet. That was what Cassian said. What does she say? Like, I'm already there. And part of that was because the empire is everywhere. But the show's ability to invert that and take that and say, yes, that Imperial Rot has reached into every single crack and nook of your community and your planet and your way of life and is seeking to flood it, to tear it down, to break it.

But you can be everywhere too. Like, you can make sure that no matter where that frontier is, you're there with it. They'll never find me. Like, it's just amazing how this all has connected here. And, of course, like, we've talked a lot about the control you brought up last week, that control line and the translation of it and the connection to power doesn't panic. Like, it's just... Authority is brutal. Yeah.

Authority is brittle. And we see that because, like, the power does panic again here. You know, when Miro was saying, like... Fucking Tigo. Tigo, exactly. The power panics in a hurry and to devastating effect. one single thing will break the siege. Yeah, one single thing, and I was thinking about that,

I was like, what is the one, like, if you would depict the one single thing that breaks the siege in this arc of the empire, what would you say it is? I mean, I guess, like, technically, the answer would be the destruction of the Death Star. It's the one shot, the one thing. But the thing I love about it is it isn't really.

It's every little one single thing that built to that point. And actually, like, you can't have one single thing. thing. Or maybe it's more accurate to say you could only have one single thing if you had every other little thing along the way. That's what gets you to that point. The one thing, I mean, the Death Star shot is a really good one. I was thinking like Luke flipping Anakin. Like that feels like the thing that breaks the siege. But like, again, you can't have that until you have all these other things leading up to it. And so with that damn imagery that Nemeck gives us here, It's like every stone, you know, every stone and EWalk throws, every brick abraso throws, is like, you know, chipping away at this dam until finally one last push is going to break it.

And then here comes the flood of the rebellion. There's this Lenin quote about revolutions, which reads, there are decades where nothing happens and then there are weeks where decades happen. You know what I mean? And that's sort of this idea of like. everything between Revenge of the Sith and a New Hope, you could, in our previous understanding of the canon, our bare-bones understanding of this world, kind of nothing happens, right?

The emperor rises, and then we meet Luke Skywalker. But as we fell in the canon, we find all the little things, all the little nudges, all the little pushes, all the, you know, characters and rebels, etc., that are sort of pushing at this dam until it breaks. And I love that we then get to go back. I mean, like, so Cassian in the rain, no matter what, like,

when he goes into the tunnels underneath the hotel, and he's literally standing in some water in the tunnels underneath the hotel, as he's plotting to free Bix, and we have to think about what they said about Marva's plan, her rebel plan, Brazzan Bix. And Brasso and Bix in episode eight, what was she doing by the hotel? She's obsessed with troopers. She fell trying to pry open the old Rick's floodgate.

She's going to flush them out? No, she wanted to see the tunnel under the hotel was still open. Why? So the rebellion can sneak in and take them by surprise. She's a rebel. So that's Marva checking the tunnels that Cassie will eventually use to sneak in and end flood imagery altogether. And that's when this show is as tight. heighten it as it can be, that's what we're talking about.

Yeah. And it's, you know, we chatted a lot last week about, like, the anguish of Cassiant saying, like, that Marvel would be proud of him and then feeling like the loss and the grief and the morning, not only of losing her, but of losing the possibility of her feeling that pride in real time. And, like, the way that she said to him that he had a different path. And, like, he did because each path is different. But that his path still took him down that time. His path took him to the rebellion.

And like what a cool thing that is. And like we've chatted a lot about and so of the characters how hard the rebellion is and how much it requires. And I loved in Nemex's speech here, tyranny requires constant effort. Like that's really the hard and unnatural thing

is maintaining that state. And like again, just these inversions and parallels of these ideas that change something like just one degree about how we've been thinking of it. Like, just perfect. What a scene. I'll really miss that. I hope we get for the rest of the series, little snippets of the manifesto.

So that we still get to hear from him. Please. What an incredible character he is. Paying Alex Lothar to come into the sound move. All right. So we already talked about how the ISB, those pieces of shit, are trying to chote, you know, like whittle this funeral down to barely anything. And I just want to shout out this one moment where they, you know,

They say they're trying to push the funeral back a couple hours because, quote, they slowed down after lunch. Talking about the citizens of ferrics like their fucking livestock, I fucking, I got really mad. But let's go to the tunnel because to your point, when Cassian says she would be so proud of me, tell Marva she'd be so proud of me in last week's episode and then finds out that she's dead and he'll never get to hear about her pride. But just as she will later in the square speak from beyond the grave, we get this other message. from Marva, the more personal Taylor to Cassian message from Marva, delivered by Brasso in the tunnel of the hotel. Mike, can we hear this, please? Tell him, none of this is his fault.

It was already burning. He's just the first spark of the fire. Tell him, he knows everything he needs to know and feels everything he needs to feel. And when the day comes to those two pull together, he will be an unstoppable force for good. Tell him. Okay. made me cry. It's crying right now.

Because tell him I love him is one thing. Tell him I love him more than anything he could ever do wrong. Unbelievable. When you compare this to episode one when Cassing is talking to B, he's trying to figure out if anyone's looking for him after what he does after the two cars that he kills, right? And so he's asking B, sort of who visited Marva what was going on? And B tells him what Marva said what Marva told Brasso about Cassian. So again, just like Marva tells Brasso this speech that he gives Cassian in The Tunnels the Hotel.

And in episode one, Marva told Brasso, according to B, Marva said you were out ruining your health and reputation with friends of low character. She told him Brasso, sooner or later you're going to get yourself into trouble you couldn't talk your way out of. And then she'll Brasso and then Cassian cuts B off there. The journey, right, from that, from Marva seemingly to grudgingly, Like she loves Cassian, but she's constantly pointing to this switch where she's just like, I love you more than anything you could ever do wrong. You already know everything you need to know and feel everything you need to feel. Like that's, I'm proud of you wrapped in just the shiniest, most beautiful inspirational package. There's also some really key language here. He will be an unstoppable force for good. I went through the transcripts and looked up the use force. The word. the use of the word force throughout the seasons, only used three times. One is Cyril Karn talking about a show of force, right?

Another is Luthan saying, the time has come to force their hands. And then this is the third moment. So we've talked about the force and whether or not we want the forced, capital F force, to be a thing that we see in this. But, like, there are other ideas of what a force might be.

And this is the kind of force that Tony Gilroy is engaging with this like more human grounded, try kind of force going forward. Right. There's also, of course, when we hear he's just the first spark of the fire. Yes. Like there's a bunch of stuff we have to think about it. Of course, you know, we have to think about Poe Damarin. We are the spark that will light the fire that'll burn the first order down.

We have to think about the rebels pilot, which is called Spark of the Rebellion. And that comes from the line, when the empire, as operations are targeted on an ongoing basis, it could signify something more than the theft of a few crates, it could signify the spark of the rebellion. This is fire language when we've been talking a lot about water language as well. What do you think about all this, now? Yeah, I mean, this just, obviously the Po line is, I think, the number one association, given the particular spark fire language, but also, of course, thought about rebellions

are built on hope and the Cassian line and idea that becomes the gin line and idea. like how hearing this right here and this moment in this state of grief, in this tunnel, inside of this mounting fight would be something that shaped the rest of Cassian's life and every decision that he made from here and everything that he said and thought. And like, I think that this is a very nimble way. The force language call out is a great one and the key kind of rebellion language there too to connect to these larger Star Wars. his ideas, but still do something that feels so fully rooted in the particulars of Andor, because, like, yeah, of course we're talking about that and it's important and cool, but, like, I think we agree that the tell him, I love him more than anything you could ever do wrong is the key thing in there. And, like, to make this about the core of human connection,

that is the thing they're ultimately working to preserve and to, to pry out of that tightening fist, like, we can't not think about the that's just love. Nothing you can do about that moment, too, in tandem with this. And, like, what a truly beautiful way that is to capture a meaningful relationship that defines the course of your life. So I just thought that this was wonderful and beautiful. And the hug that Brasso and Cassian shared was lovely and wonderful. And I just thought this was great.

Just thought this was great. Diego Luna clasping his hands behind Brasso's back and just holding it there for so long. There's also, I've been thinking about this language, this specific language, this fire imagery of a spark, etc. The water imagery that we've gotten, this like breath air choking imagery that we've gotten, the climb imagery that we've gotten. Well, and there's like the earth bending element too with the brick, right? like the brick and the border and the stone. I wrote Earth, air, water, fire in my notes, this, this avatar, poor element thing. And when you think about that, we have to think about a couple of characters who showed up in our, like, greatest speeches of Star Wars conversation, right?

Because when, you know, Yoda is talking about the force on Degoban, he says, life creates it, makes it grow, its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter? You must feel the force around you. here between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere. Right? And then Luke, when he's talking to Ray, and says, and this is the lesson the force does not belong. When he's talking about it flowing through everything, right? Yeah.

And he says, this is the lesson. The force does not belong to the Jedi to say that if the Jedi die, the light dies as vanity. Can you feel that? So I don't know, and I don't know if anyone, if Chris or anyone want to ask Tony Gilroy, this, but like, I don't know if this elemental language is intentional, but it feels so. And it feels like it's connected to this force ideology of, like, something that someone really smart said to me once about the force as a concept is that if you ask a lot of millennials what they believe in religiously, because, you know, a lot of people like us, they describe

something that is essentially the force. Honestly, if you ask me what I believe in, it is essentially something like the force and I would never have called it the force, but as an atheist, as an agnostic or whatever, I'm just like, but I do believe in an energy that flows everywhere and connects things. And so I like this idea that we, you know,

and in Rogue One, we get that. We get a character like Chirot who is not a force user, but is using... I am one with the force. Yeah. The guidance of the force, you know? I think like that, I love that, Joe, and I think that that feels very true to the spirit of the show where, okay, when we think of fire inside of Star Wars, what's like the first thing that pops into your mind? For me, it would be Mustafa.

I was going to say Mustafa. And so we think of like the descent into the dark side, the fall to evil. I was talking earlier about the flood and the water imagery as a threat, but just, but just. then you talked about it as cleansing. And I think, like, that's, that's the idea in Nemex speech, too, right? That flooded the banks of the empire's authority, break through the dam, keep, keep putting the cracks in the dam until it breaks. And that I think, like, the freedom is a pure idea aspect of Nemex speech dwarfed by the scale of the enemy. No scale is big enough to control something like that.

And one of the things that feels very central to Andor's pursuit is like taking back something that someone is attempting to use to oppress you. It's not quite Luthens condemned to use the tools of my enemy. It's more like, why can the water at Narcina 5 is fueling the generators that power the prison that fry the floors that kill the people. But the water is also the way they get out. it's the way they deactivate the floors. It's the way they swim to shore.

And so anything that the empire, anything that your oppressor is using to keep you down can be the thing that helps you put another crack in that dam until it breaks entirely. And like I think that we could find examples with all of those different,

all of those different elements. They're turning the hotel, the bricks of ferrics, this way of life into a prison. When Brazo is marching through the street, he's actually using Marva's Funery Stone as a weapon. Cassian is nestled inside of the bricks that probably contain some other loved ones.

Loved ones. And like what an amazing idea that is, right? Instead of fearing, okay, a stormtrooper is climbing that tower up to our time grappler, our fave, but he's the one with the high ground, really, because he understands the elements and the way that they connect his way of life. And so he's not just banging on the anvil. he can turn around and kick that guy over the edge. Loved it.

Loved it. All right. Speaking of our guy, the time grappler, let's get to like this memorial service, right? So it starts early, a couple hours earlier. Bell's in the midst of telling Luther. Like shit, Tigo. Yeah. Bell's in the midst of telling Luther.

It'll be a couple hours. And then the time grappler starts a grappling on the anvil. And we see, I mean, from a visual perspective, the color coding on these various factions as they assemble. the sound of the band tuning up and marching with, you know, playing this dirge as they march to the street. We get their orange coats. There's like a mustard yellow coat. There's the red coats of the daughter of Ferrex and, you know, whatever else it is that Brasso belongs to.

That's, you know, they're wearing these things. And the way in which they're color-coded is visually stunning. But it also, again, goes back to this point we were talking about last week in terms of, like, working towns and unions. it feels very like these are the various guilds or these are the various unions or these are the various social clubs of this working town and they are formidable

when they come together they are already organized loosely around these various clubs and when they come together the way that they do here it's incredible what did you think of this roll out here

so this scene was amazing the way that it built, not only the initial challenge to what the agreement had been and how thrilling that was, but Marva in episode three, when we have the banging,

said that's what a reckoning sounds like. You want it to stop, but it just keeps coming. And one of the great, great, great, exhilarating moments in the finale was when the music stops. And then the march begins.

Like, that's not the end. It's that brief moment of quiet that the empire thought it wanted. That was ultimately just a prelude to the actual charge and the actual challenge and the march, right? And then it picks up again in a faster tempo. And then that's like what Luther said. Soon enough, they'll have something else to listen to. And that's what this was. Like, this is the sound of a reckoning.

But again, if we think about that one thing idea in, like at scale and the way that you can shrink that or you can spin, like, zoom in or zoom out, I'm inclined to say, well, this is the sound. of a reckoning. But that couldn't be true without the first sound of the reckoning, because it has to always help, you know, one brick becomes a road, the more bricks you lay. And so like the initial banging, even though the citizens of Farrex had that moment that we talked about with Bix and Cassian, where they're like, actually, maybe I'll turn this guy in. That's not what happened here. They all showed up. They all wore their colors. They all held their instruments. They marched forward. B right there at the front, zipping and zooming. And there was you know when Cassian said on Aldani

to the whole crew like there's a difference there's a difference between fear and losing your nerve yeah yeah like I was thinking of that idea here too because I have to imagine that a lot of those people were really afraid yeah and of course they would be but they didn't lose their nerve because of how much more of them meant to them because of how everybody can feel that fist tightening that's one of the things that like

when Luthin you know we've talked about how Luther is one of our favorite characters and the real way that he's challenged an easy read on the hero of the rebellion. And I watch him at the end, like the way that he's watching from the stairs, the way that he's listening to Marva's words, the way that he's seeing this challenge of Farrex. And I think, like, wow, he sees that it's working. He sees that it was happening without him already. But then I'm like, was it?

I mean, also, you know there's a part of his mind that's like, well, was it happening without mirror, is this because the fist goes? Marva cites Aldani is the reason that she felt ready to be a rebel, you know? Exactly. Tony Gilroy throughout, I mean, we're in a Star Wars story,

but Tony Gilroy throughout this has been dealing in common trappings that we understand from various genres of film and television, the prison break genre, or the heist genre in Aldani. And here we have, I don't know what I would call this genre, I guess, like cat and mouse sort of thing.

But the idea of a parade And then sort of like a chase that interacts with a city parade Has been used so many times in movies My favorite example is the fugitive But like this is a constant thing Where like people are slipping in and out of a parade The music is like the marching in the music It like automatically ramps up the tension for you

And then also we have to think about As Cassine is slipping around And into the hotel above the procession below So that's pure godfather to Vito Corleone with a gun on the roof as the Feast of San Genaro Festival happens below. So we're getting Fugitive and Godfather and all this sort of stuff wrapped into this very specific cultural moment for these people. You mentioned the gloves on the wall on these hands that build things, concept of pharix.

And I just love how this, we think about the boots in Narcina, which are. are used to protect, but boots stomped, boots suppress. I mean, like, you know, you put a boot on the neck of someone, and hands build and lift up and lift up is going to be a huge part of Marva's speech going forward, you know. It's just incredible. Brilliant. Nerchy narks, like Nurchy's going to do.

It's tough. Sinta does a lot of watching. DeDre is very insistent that Cassine is taken alive. Yeah. Yeah, needs them to find access. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We got this great email from Kaelin who was talking about, we got an email last week also about this idea of protesters, writers using funerals as a moment to make a move, especially in a place where maybe they're not allowed to gather otherwise in groups.

It's happening right now in Iran. I was just reading about this. So Kaelin wrote this great email. I'm paraphrasing some and condensing because it was quite long and very brilliant. But she wrote, The Empire is all about flattening the spaces where interactions between people happen into spaces where certain actions are done

and other actions are impossible, from the factory floor to the bridge and Narcina. While Farrix residents' engagement with a space of home is so central to their construction of their identities and understanding of life, as someone who studies how social movements use the physical space where they work in order to make claims of the powerful,

there are so many interesting connections between how Ferrix residents, resistance to the empire is spatialized. Likewise, really curious to see how they use this funeral in the coming episode, as there is also a long history of movements against authoritarianism, using funerals for organizing resistance, particularly in context where all their avenues of dissent have been restricted. So this idea, you've talked about this so brilliantly again and again, Mallory,

about this idea of like the space, Rick's Road, as these few blocks of blocks of ferrics, the space, the walls being literally made of the people of this community and the way in which the empire has tried to invade this space. It's so fascinating to me. Very precious email there from Caitlin. Right. She wrote this definitely before this episode. What did you think of when you heard the chant stone and sky, Mallory? Ooh, first of all, it was just devastating to see Bix, but also like heartening, I guess, to see that. Bix still shattered was then repeating these words and like the way that that that chant and that mantra and that communal creed was reaching was reaching her there. Stone and sky. I mean, I guess it's more of the elements, right, that we were just discussing.

I think also like we've chatted about climbing a lot, but also flight in Star Wars of this idea of the escape. And I think like it makes me think a bit again, again, I keep coming back to that. Cassian Marva conversation. in episode seven, which just was so important. And that idea of, like, wanting to flee, but the empire being everywhere, it's inescapable. And, like, the sky is not always a way out to a better future. And that was one of the lessons that Cassian learned. He learned it on Nemos.

You learned it on Arkinna. And he's coming back then down to the stone to help make sure that other people don't have to discover something similar. What about you? Let's think about dwarves and rings of power again. but yeah, anytime someone mentioned something about Stone, I'm like, yeah, is Duran here? Hammer and rock. Oh my God, rings of power, I miss you.

Okay, anything else you want to say before we get to Marva's speech? I'll just say as we head into Marva's speech that Marva doing the full Tony Stark and pre-recording her own eulogy before she died. It's just iconic. I like, I felt really. bad. We got so many emails of like the Marva isn't really dead because last week everyone was just sort of like, wait, that's it. We don't get to see Marva again. She's gone. And maybe this is an education on how to understand how the show is doing certain things, right? Like, it's not the kind of show that is giving you like the twist of Marva's release still alive,

but it is giving you, don't worry, you will be satisfied. We got Nemex voice from Beyond the Grave too. I mentioned last week. Like we didn't get a farewell from Nemex. Sorry, I keep saying Nemmiks. Nemik, right? We didn't get this like, he just dies. And that's just how these things happened. And we didn't get a dying words from him. But we get his manifesto here.

And we get Marva here from Beyond the Grave. So we played the back half at the beginning of this episode. So let's hear the front half of Marva's speech, if you're ready. My name is Marva Karasi Andor. I'm honored to stand before you. I'm honored to be a daughter of Therick's. In honor to be worthy of the stone. Strange.

Fierce if I can see him. I was six, I think. First time I touched a funerary stone. Heard our music. Felt our history. Holding my sister's hand as we walked all the way from Fountain Square. Where you stand now, I've been more times than I can remember. I always wanted to be lifted.

I was always eager, always. always eager, always waiting to be inspired. I remember every time it happened, every time the dead lifted me with their truth. And now I'm dead. And I earn to lift you. Not because I want to shine or even be remembered, it's because I want you to go on. I want Ferrex to continue.

In my waning hours, that's what comforts me most. But I fear for you, we've been sleeping. We've had each other in ferrics, our work, our days. We had each other and they left us alone. We kept the trade lanes open and they left us alone. We took their money and ignored them. We kept their engines turning and the moment they pulled away, we forgot them. because we had each other.

We had ferries. Oh, my God. Little B. All right. Sweet B projecting this message of his beloved Marva. He wanted Marva and here she is. I'm so proud of me. I want Marva.

All right. All right. Tell me your Marva's speech fun. Arjuna is chiming in in Zoom with bars. It's true. This was really like, we got four unbelievable speeches in the final quarter of this show

with Kino, Luthin, Nemek, and Marva. Really, like, any one of those on its own would have been something we were talking about for years. We got four of them. What an absolute embarrassment of riches. I'll save my thoughts on Tigo coming in, and I can't even say the words of what you did to be. be will get what state.

I'll let you handle that part. I can't talk about it. It made me so many. But Marva. Obviously, like you said, Joe, we split it. We just heard half here. We heard half at the beginning. This is like the thesis for the show, right?

And so many incredible things are present here. A lot of which we've already talked about today. But, you know, you just mentioned rings of power. And I was thinking about rings of power during this speech. Because all of all of Marva's, language about, I mean, first of all, the writing here is just fucking incredible. There's a wound that won't heal at the center of the galaxy. There's a darkness reaching like rust into everything around us.

We let it grow. And now it's here. This line. It's here and it's not visiting anymore. It wants to stay. The empire is a disease that thrives in darkness. It is never more alive than when we sleep. Thought of our gal.

Galadriel. It's Galadriel here. It's Galadriel. It's a lot of her. It's Galadriel. because I was thinking of her. Evil does not sleep. It waits.

And in the moment of our complacency, it blinds us. That's a Galadriel. Now I'm just saying Galadryl like I'm Halbran. No longer the Baltimore accent. No, it's a Halbran accent. Oh, boy.

That's a Galadriel idea from the two-part rings of power premiere that was really central not only to that show, but to fantasy story your genre storytelling more broadly. And like, that made me think too of Marva and Cassie in episode seven

and Marva talking about, we talked about this at the time, like her age, you know, Cassie is saying like, who's laughing, this is madness? And Marva's saying, no, it's not. It's overdue and probably doomed,

which is like another thing that she echoes here. And I'm too old and I don't care anymore. And like, the regret that Marva felt about not starting sooner. And like that I'd wake up early and be fighting these bastards from the start. We never got to see Marva and Luthin have a conversation, for example. But we got to see so clearly the way that their ideologies aligned and the way that both of their worldviews helped to shape Cassian. because that fight these bastards from the start,

like that's the Luthan fight these bastards for real, pitch to Cassian. And here it is for everyone in Farrex to hear. And so we're taking something that has been very intimate, a conversation between Cassian and Marvin B in their living room, a recruiting pitch from Luton to Cassian on the Fondor, and we are broadcasting this for everybody to hear. And will everybody want to hear it?

Maybe not. Is everybody ready to hear it? Of course not. Like that wouldn't be a reasonable thing to experience. but the volume of the surge, the mass of people who make the choice to charge here. Like, if that can happen in one place, then it can happen everywhere. It can happen on every one of those frontiers all across the galaxy. The Nemik was talking about it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, like, do you need Cassian and Jin to go to

Gariff and get the plans. Do you need Galen to tell them how? Do you need Luke to fire that shot? Of course. But you need everybody on Farrex to decide to do this here. You need everybody on every planet across the galaxy who's going to make a similar choice to do that too. Yeah. Every little rock thrown against the dam, right? And I think I love that you cited Galadriel. It's Galadriel. It's Galadriel, yeah. I love that you cited Galadriel on the sleeping waking front because I, really lashed on to that language, too. There's this quote from, and something that Tony Gilroy and his writers have been doing

is lacing in sort of known lines and concepts from other revolutionaries into the language of their speeches here, right? So Malcolm X said, the greatest mistake of the movement has been trying to organize a sleeping people around specific goals. You have to wake the people up first.

Then you'll get action, right? And then also, I was reminded of, like, one of the very first stories that we podcasted about nearly a year ago, Mallory, Dune. There's this great ongoing concept of waking people in Dune. Something sleeps inside us and seldom wakens. The sleeper must awaken. You see, gentlemen, they have to, they have something to die for.

They've discovered there are people. They're awakening, right? So, I mean, Dune is a revolutionary story as well, of workers rising up against an oppressive empire and Stalin Scars card is also there. So, you know, all this language feels extremely intentional to me, but also, you know, to your ongoing great point about episode seven being so vital in that Marva Cassian interaction, especially being so vital, we got that beautiful part of that conversation where she talks about avoiding a space in Ferrix and taking it back after Aldani. She says for 13 years, every time I walked down Rick's. Road. I turn off before I get to the square. I take the long way around so I don't have to think

about Clem hanging there. I heard that. I heard that about Aldani. I put on my best coat and I walked across the square with a smile on my face. I think this is the very same square where she's being projected right now, right? They went down Rick's Road. They mentioned Rick's Road number 10. They went down Rick's Road. They stopped at the square. Here she is. This is where Clem was strung up. This is where she was afraid to go for 13 years, and here she is high as the sky, huge, looming over everything. And something I love, you mentioned earlier,

what we see while we hear these speeches. And we see Zan and Brasso and Wilman looking up, and Marva, of course, she's looming over them, they're looking up. But so, if you look at how the other characters are shot, Dedra, and Corv, as they're looking for Cassie, and they're looking up, because Nurti the Narc has told them that he's up in a tower somewhere.

They go up the wrong, you know, he's not in the tower that he was, but they're looking up. The way that Cassie and his shot is going up the hotel stairs to find Bix, the camera's right over his head so he's looking up. So everyone's looking up, even if they're not looking directly at Marva. They're all looking up. And the first time I watched this episode, I was confused why this big speech was happening and we don't get to see Cassian react to it. Right? Bix later, when he encounters Bix and she says, Marva is here and he says, I don't know, wasn't she magnificent? Yeah. Wasn't she great? Wasn't she great? Wasn't she great? But we don't see him seemingly absorb. He's single-minded focused on his mission to get Bix and he's not absorbing Marva's speech. And the second time I watched it. I was like, actually, that works really beautifully for me because he got the speech he needed already from Brasso. He got his own personal Marva's speech, first of all. And second of all, Marva wouldn't want him at the funeral. she would want him doing this.

Exactly. And like, we have these nice connections in the speech between the, to the Clem flashback that we got with Cassian, too. This was from the part we played at the beginning of the episode, the Rust line, Darkness reaching like rust and everything around us. So then that makes us think of Clem and Cassian and what we saw there. But, like, another connection, I think, is when Brazo and Cassian part in the tunnel and he says, you take care of yourself. What does Cassian say? It's too late for that. Like that's a very Marva idea that we're hearing in this in this speech to the people of Farrex, but also what she told

him when they parted. Like maybe it's not going to work out. And of course, we know this is again another example of like using our knowledge to enhance the experience that we have of watching something set earlier in the timeline. Yeah. Cassian is taking this idea and do what he told Taga and everyone around him on Arkinah. Like, fight. Don't die till you put up a fight. And that is just a nice, another nice way to connect, even though Marva is not there.

They're not having a new conversation in person. Like you said, he is already internalized every lesson that she had to teach him, including that lesson that he knows what he knows. He knows what he feels. Exactly. Another revolutionary that I was thinking of in that context is Huey P. Newton, a Black Panther leader, said the first lesson of revolutionary must learn is that he is a doomed man. And so that idea of Cassian and Marva and Luthin sort of saying, I'm already dead. Like that's not the point. My survival, my future is not the point. It's the future I can build for someone else is what I'm working towards here. All right, to spare you from talking about it, I will just say that Tiga, a piece of shit, first, like, haphazardly throws his stupid leather trench coat over B. And that means we get the last lines from Marva come with her face half obscured. And it is incredible and scary and wonderful.

Fiona Shaw's delivery is incredible. Then Tigo knocks B over. And let's just say, immediately Brasso gives him a mighty kick. to the chest immediately. Like, Brasso, love of my life, marry me, please. Like, I love that moment. Brasso is very special. Yes.

I hope that Tigo was boiled alive in the acid that they used to clean the old components. This fucking monster. He crawls away like a little fucking bitch out of the, like, riot that he started. Right? And as we've mentioned a couple times. times, you know, it's both on the nose and perfect that Brasso starts beating a shit on people with Marva's brick. Like, wonderful.

Great stuff. And then this has been building all episode about Wilman Park, who we mentioned the beginning, he throws his bomb. You know, we've been, like that kid, the anger, rage, sorrow face that we keep cutting to on that kid was so potent. So he throws his bomb. there's this great i think it's a patin oswald bit about the terminator where he talks about how so many climaxes of movies take place in sparks factories what are they manufactured there i don't know sparks

and that's what i thought of when wilman's bomb landed in the giant bucket of bombs that all those bombs went off but that's uh that's what happened here in the streets of ferrics on rick's road As much as you want Tigo to be boiled alive in the acid, what kind of metal do you want to give Pelga for swooping into getting B and towing him away to safety? He can have anything his heart desires. No prize is too great for Peglow, my hero, and a hero of the rebellion. You know, one of the things that this is far as far as the Sparks point is very funny.

One of the things that really, like, I was thinking about this elsewhere in the season to be really feel it here, the blaster bolts in Andor hit harder than like elsewhere in Star Wars. And some of that is like, and they actually hit. Yes. And they actually hit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We lost, uh, we lost some, we lost some people here.

We lost Dan. Nurchy. We lost Nurchy. Korv got stabbed in the stomach by Sinta. But like, some of it is like the actual. you've got kind of the like heavy repeater cannon fire, but just even the blaster fire. There is a violence to this that is,

boy, it's really, really, really something. And then, of course, one of the pieces of debris, I guess, it's not a blasterable, but it's Miro in the head. And then what happens? All right, I've been saving most of Carncorner to do all the ones. So you're ready for it? Yeah.

Okay. Cyril shows up to this whole thing with Sergeant Mosque. I don't think Sergeant Mosque needs to be in this episode, but that's fine. I don't agree. I don't know. He just kills me. He is so funny. That's why he's supposed to be there.

So if it works for you, that's great. We need this like injection of levity and absurdity inside of this incredibly heavy story. And Mosque is doing it for me. On that front. The bits with a cap. I don't know why it's there other than for comedy, I suppose. Joanne, I have a question for you. Yeah.

Hit me. Cap corner? Cap corner. Yeah. Cousin of Wigwatch. Yeah. Kristen Cole's cap or Cyril's cap. One has to go.

Oh, Cole's dumb cap has to go. Because I actually kind of love Cyril's quilted baseball cap. It really reminds me of, like, rich people cosplay, like, the working class. That's what it looked like to me. Even though Cyril himself is not a rich person. but like it just looks like, oh, this is what the people wear, right? This is like a quilted cap. All right.

Cyril stands right in front of Luton and doesn't see him. Lufin sees Cyril, but Cyril doesn't see Luton or hear him. I guess it's good Luton didn't speak. Oh, can I ask you a question? Yeah. Going back to episode 11 for a second, do you think the arrest or cruiser that Luton had the exchange with has a recording of his voice that Cyril will hear at some point?

Or do you just think they will end up in the same place at some point and he will hear him? Oh, that's a great idea. I don't know. I like the idea of being sort of live and in person so that we can sort of see Cyril, like, you know, look at him. You're like, whew! But Cap Corner aside, Cyril is coated through this whole thing as the hero that he believes he is, right? He locks. Charges into runs.

But let's go back to, like, he's. But let's go back to, like, he sees her. Yeah. He says breathlessly, she's here. It's her. And everyone's looking up. No, Cyril keeps his eye on the target. He is locked on dead.

So the moment she is in peril, he charges forth heroically. Yeah. You know, like when the bomb goes off and then he, like, pulls her out of the, you know, out of the melee, sort of like, hound and sansa moment. He puts the gunner back, like, pretending that he's a revolutionary. And then she's, they go into the, I don't know, the supply closet. I thought of sounds like that. I thought it was on the hound too. I thought it was thrown so many times.

The, when Cassian is initially trying to coax bicks, it reminded me of Yara finding theon and like the fear being so deeply rooted. What happens here? Joanna, the word that I would like to throw your way. that I would, if you said, I can only use one word to sum up everything. There was a quivering. There was just quivering.

An incredible amount of quivering in this scene. And I didn't hate it, and I don't know what's wrong with me, but I did not hate it. I'm back to these two deranged maniacs really having a future, I think. Hashtag Chiro. The way he's so Cassian Coden in this episode, they both show up to pharix to rescue a maiden, you know, essentially. You, how? You were in trouble. Cyril. I knew that. I knew that. She knows his name now. I should say thank you. You don't have to. I love you. I know. No, that didn't know. To give a Malory Rubin call

the dry hand jobs are coming. Well, so this, you know, two, yep. To use your own header from the outline. Thank you. Incredible. Two, earlier when people are like, oh, is Cyril going to go work for DEDRA? I was like, no. And now I'm like, yeah, I think so.

I really thought that her, like, this is your last warning, and I will put you in a cage at the edge of the galaxy if you don't back off, like was going to bear fruit and that part of Cyril's arc would be the miscalculation of thinking that opting into the Imperial Machine was actually like a valid path forward.

Yeah. But I think that what happens here, the crackling chemistry between these two and this moment, coupled with... Coupling. Coupling. In the bowels.

of a fair expanse. The storeroom of the death store. All right. Yeah, go ahead. Coupled with this growing rift between Miro and the rest of the ISB. It's like this is the person who she can trust unfailingly. And that's a valuable thing. He's her Kristen Cole, her like, creepy little dog on a leash, right?

Okay. Here we go. Yeah, Deirdre. I just love Cyril, like, in this episode. No notes. 10 out of 10. No notes. All right.

So Cassian's, like, heroic rescue of Bix culminates in a brief reunion between B and Cassian. This kill me. Pegla gets. It's a surprising. It's a surprising little group on this ship out of Farrix, is it not? So we've got Brasso, Bix, and B, sure. But Jezzi, our daughter of Farrex. is there. She's

her captain. And William, Wilman Park, the bomb thrower himself. Right. It feels like Brasso is like, well, they're going to come after you first,

kid, so let's get you the fuck out of here. Yeah. Did, it seemed like Brasso is deeply terrified of flying in the way that he is like. It did. But I wasn't sure if that was

about this particular ship, not seeming super sturdy, and they couldn't tell if there was fuel on the gauge or if this is like tracing back to something deeper. Yeah, but I like couldn't find any reference to earlier in the season when Brasso's like, you and those ships, I don't fly or something like that anyway. They're going to Ganji Moon.

And what does Cassian tell Jez to do as she's flying? Care. What are his directions? Joe, we get another climb line here. The moment you get over the water, you climb. Another climb directive. You're at the end of all things. You understand?

I mean, season one. B's absolutely got it. The casting doesn't coming, right? Same. This was heart-wrenching. You're not coming, not today, B. I never got to see you. Joanna.

The castles B, I'm counting on you. B says, you always say that. You always come through. Oh, boy. And then, you know, Bix says, yeah, he'll find us. Cassie will find us. Gives me a real legends of the fall. Stay alive.

I will find you moment. Daniel Day Lewis. Call me. All right. What does she say to him in episode seven? You skim. You borrow. You lie.

You disappear. And like this idea of having to be without him and her saying like, I've done it before. And so this is like a different thing from her in terms of her belief in him and their collective belief in him. And that was really cool. I just want him to be with B though. I can't.

I can't believe that they're a part again. Despite then. Frankly. And here's my hope. I hope that this ship, everyone on the ship is just fine. We know from Cassie and Rogue One that he says he's lost everything. And my hope is that he just means I put everyone I loved on a ship and I never saw them again because that was safer for them, right? A B and Bix are just fine.

I will not accept harm befalling B. Like I prepared for a lot of harding, but I will not accept to that. Bix has figured out how to like reduce his charger so that he is like all ship shape again and they're just fine on Ganges moon. Sounds great. All right. Take us through this Luthan Cassian final moment

on the Fondor. Can I say about our guy Lutham that as we mentioned many times but at length last week in an episode 10

and many times let's just say many times one of the best characters in Star Wars fascinating. We have loved our time with him. The speech to Lani

iconic pantheonist seen, the conversations with Saw, wonderful, the exchanges with Mon, electric, the conversations with Clayah, fascinating. I really hope we get a backstory between those two, because I still want to know. We are in awe of what Lutin is capable of. We understand, though we're still learning more the extent of his reach. I have some notes on leaving the ship in the exact place. you took Cassie and two last time you were on pharix like Cassie just seen the Fondor and he knows where it's parked knows exactly where it's parked has been on it took luft directed Luthin like that that ride that speeder ride over the waist I'm like what are you doing my guy I know he went there and thought that they were

going to kill him but Luthen we need to see some tighter security Valerie you live in Los Angeles You have grown soft in the world of valet parking In a city when you find a parking spot That works where you take you take it All right, fine And you never budge Fine, well unsurprisingly given that he parked in the same spot He returns to the Fondor and issues his command

But his trusty Fondor droid doesn't speak Respite silence Doom And then Cassian Waiting for Luthan. Cassie and a suckerboard. Blaster out, Joe. You came here to kill me, didn't you? And Luton tells him, you don't make it easy, which is true. I will now. He gestures toward the blaster. What game is this? Luton asks, no game, kill me or take me in. And then Luthon smiles. He has his man. And what did we hear him say earlier in the season? Special people. are hard to find. And Cassian Andor is a special person.

So he is no longer concerned about the security risk. And as we suspected, it would be the case all along, has welcomed Cassian back into the fold because that was the goal all along. Cassian and Andor, part of the rebellion. Do you know who's going to love this? Claire. Clay is going to be like, this is a great move. And I'm so glad you did this. slipping. Tell me.

I got great-spitting, knives on the floor, and you bring this piece of shit into the operation. Anyway, how did you feel about Lithuan defying all of our expectations to surviving this season?

I'm shocked. Ah, yeah. But thrill. Delighted. Delighted. Yeah. So, so, so, so excited that we get more in Luton in season two. Because what an incredible character?

And like, what will he do? What, what is this? future hold and like where I mean I think we feel like it's safe to say we will say goodbye at some point but when and how and what will he have learned because his role is often about teaching other people things but what is he learning too along the way that maybe shapes or alters his worldview I really cannot wait to find out it's part of the reason that I'm really eager for maybe more than 12 additional episodes because like I want more of luthan and clay I want more of luthan and on. I now want, of course, more of Luton and Cassian.

Yeah. One last thing before we get to the post-credits tease in our own Ben Lydberg, which is just a speedy detour to English Major Corner. To say we got an email from a listener named Patty, to follow up on our Dickens conversation last week, to your point about what will happen to Luton, Patty was like, okay, if we're talking about the works of Charles Dickens and we're talking about sort of a revolutionary figure, we have to talk about, this is me paraphrasing, a tale of two cities. which is Dickens' novel is set in the French Revolution, Revolution, Rebellion, Charles Dickens, The Tale Two Cities. Cindy Carton is a character in that book who sacrifices himself, or the cause. And the book ends with this like multi-paragraph rumination from Sydney on like his decision here. And so Patty is speculating that perhaps Luton like Sydney will decide that, you know,

he's already made his mind of endless space, but he's just sort of like, you know, you think my life is some precious thing to me sort of thing for the cause. And what Cindy Carton says very famously in Dickens' book is, I see the lives for which I lay down my life peaceful, useful, useful, prosperous, and happy in that England, which I shall see no more. It is a far, far better thing that I do than I have ever done. It is a far, far better rest that I go to than I've ever known. That seems a bit more peaceful than what I imagine for Luthon, who has decided he has damned himself for all the time. Like, I, you know, Luthan's like, well, I'm going to hell, absolutely. But this idea of, again, a future I, you know, a future I will never see.

I'm making a future for other people. This is the conclusion Cassian has come to via Marva, et cetera. So I think that's really interesting. I like that a lot. Like in episode five, Cassian said, I'm here to win and walk away. And like, that's not true for him anymore. And that's not true for Luton either. And what are the then recalibrations in that?

revolutions from this point forward for each of them. I really, I really like that, that tale of two cities observation. That's a great one. Should we hear from Ben Lindberg? Let's do it. Let's go now. I mean, it's a post-credit stinger in the year of our Lord 2022 in Star Wars. Who knew? But Ben Lindberg's here to break it down with us, Ben. Hi. And I definitely didn't know. So first of all, thank you, Joanna, for informing me that there was a post-credit scene because I definitely didn't notice on my first watch. I wouldn't What percentage of people who weren't tipped off to that by you or someone else will actually see that stinger? Because those are some long credits.

I have. And or the last series that comes to my mind when I think stick around for a post credit scene. So I didn't see that coming. I told everyone I knew at the ringer to do it. And actually it was Alan Steppenwell who told me. So I don't know who told Alan. But like the word is spreading around. But Alan's like, what do you think of the stinger? I was like, hold on one second. And I'll tell you. Exactly. I was like, go watch it. Yeah, well, PSA to all the Ring ofverse listeners. Ben, what do you want to say about this Death Star reveal? Well, a couple things.

I guess what struck me first when I did finally see it is how underwhelmed I was by it, which I don't actually mean as a negative. I think it makes perfect sense for the Death Star to be there, just to remind everyone what the stakes are here and what the second season is leading. to. And I guess also to answer the question of what those widgets they were building in the prison were for, though it was so widely speculated that they were building Death Star Parts, that that was not a mind-blowing moment for me. But what I mean is that this series did such an incredible job of making the Empire evil in this very disturbingly banal way that I haven't really felt any desire to see Sith Lords or Super Weapons. Like, we know there are. out there. We know Darth Vader is out there doing Darth Vader stuff, but he hasn't been mentioned.

We know Palpi is out there, but we haven't seen or heard him. We know the Death Star is under construction, but except for that one stray reference to Scariff, it just hasn't come up at all. And at no time was I wondering, I wonder what Darth Vader is doing. I wonder where the Death Star is, because it's just more unsettling to me that the Empire's rank and file is so evil. Even when, you know, even when when the ringleaders aren't around, like even if they don't know that there's a super weapon to make them feel empowered. You know, it's like, it's more scary, I think, in a way.

Because I don't look at Vader in his suit and palpi in his robe and think, like, could have happened to anyone, you know? Like, and at no point do you watch the original trilogy and think they had me fooled? Like, I was really rooting for that guy who was force choking everyone. And that other guy who's shooting force lightning thought those were good guys. But Cyril Karn in his quilted baseball cap. Yeah, Cyril and Dedra at first, a semi-sympathetic character and other characters who seemed pretty innocuous and then revealed themselves to be cruel or racist or rotten in some other way. It's like the shadow, you know?

Like, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Andor reveals that in such a chilling way. And the more mundane it is, the more effective it was. So, like, after seeing that, the Death Star seems so unsettled, you know? It's just like, it's like overkill. And it's less applicable to real life where we get it. You're evil. Yeah, right.

You know, it's like, what are you compensating for with this thing? And it's like, it's less applicable to real life where we have weapons of mass destruction, but not quite that mass destruction. So at Death Star, you can kind of write off as science fiction, whereas just sort of the everyday evil of people who don't necessarily look evil on the outside, that could be anyone. Like, that is a lot of people, unfortunately. And so between that and I guess just generally like being good on on Death Star content, maybe, you know, after like a New Hope and there's a Death Star in Jedi and a Death Star in Rogue One

and a Death Star rip off in The Force Awakens. Oh, good old Star killer base. Yeah. So I don't know if the Death Star can surprise me in the way that so much of, of what has happened and or does. But who knows, maybe it will surprise me even more by surprise me about the Death Star. So I didn't mind seeing it,

but I also wasn't like, at last, this is what I've been waiting for all season. Mal, what did you think when he thought? I was the Death Star. And I think, Ben, like, your points are all well-reasoned. I don't fault the logic in anything you're saying. I think, like, to the grounded, evil,

sci-fi evil part of it. Like, I think that's one of the reasons I liked it, actually. It's like, this is actually a Star Wars story. This is a sci-fi story. And I think so much of what we've collectively touted and applauded about Andor's how specific it feels, how unique it feels,

how fresh and innovative it feels. And that's all true. But I don't think there's any shame in it existing inside of its own universe. And, like, I think that connecting in a very unobtrusive, not somehow Palpatine return kind of way. So obtrusive. I didn't even know it was there. But that's kind of, I would say, almost to its credit, right? It's like, it's we know where Cassian's arc ultimately leads.

We know what happens on Scariff. And the idea of like, like you said, this isn't a surprise to anyone, I think, when they started making the trinkets. Can you call components of a death star trinket? Probably not. I would say a widget. Yeah, the color of widgets. Rather than a bobbles.

Trinckett and bobbles. Shetting new toys. This is the holiday season. When they were making those on Arcina 5, as you noted, so many people were like, well, wow, this is probably a component of a death star. Oh, my goodness, the horror of the empire forcing the people that it is oppressing to forge and craft the weapon that will be used to destroy them, I think is very poetically resonant. And similarly, Cassian directly working on this thing that he will then undo, like, the tools of the enemy idea is just very present there in a way that I think is really rich and cool. So I liked it. I was also intrigued just, this is not relevant, but by the heavy presence of gold,

it made me think of those Columbia jacket commercials they've been airing where you see like the interior lining that keeps you warm. I was like, ooh, surprising color palette. But the other thing I'll say is just in general, I'm a sucker for like learning a new thing about the Death Star construction, like in the Thron novels, the Dunium plot. Like I really like that. I think it's cool to piece together because there actually is so much we don't know still all these years later.

And so every little kernel we get is, a widget that I can plug into my mind. And Mallory was an origin story. You guys are both weird solo apologists. So like, you know, Dashag make solo two happen. Ben and I are just still here waiting. Dead Star colon a Star Wars story that is just about the Nuts and Bolt's construction of it. I'm hoping if Willow is successful enough that Kaston can just get any project made, just give me a solo two.

But, but yeah, to be clear, I'm not mad. please don't put in the newspaper that I got mad about the Death Star Stinger. It's fine. It's good. It's just like it basically didn't change my evaluation, I guess, of the finale. You know, like I watched it, not knowing it existed. And then I watched the Stinger and I was like, oh, okay, you know. And it didn't feel like a betrayal at all.

Like, oh, they avoided like fan service and references to Star Wars all season. And then at the very end, they blew it. No, not at all. Like, we know where this is heading. We know this is Casson's destiny. Like, it's fine. So I'm okay with it. I think just from a storytelling beat perspective, it felt like it was presented as a,

dun, dun, done, done, like, Thanos being like, fine, I'll do it myself. You know, like something like that. And I'm like, oh, we kind of knew that, though. Yeah, we knew. That was sort of my reaction to it. Like, I'm not mad that the death starts here for all the reasons that Mal pointed out. It is thematically very, you know, resonant and all that sort of stuff like that. It just like, I was like, what?

Oh, okay. Yes. Can I make a prediction that it. could definitely be very wrong because I am not Tony Gilroy and don't actually know what he thinks. But one of the things I've really loved about Gilroy's chats with Chris and Andy so far is many times. They're like some question is framed as like, how did you lead us to Thing X or come up with Thing X? And Gilroy and Chris Andy have been kind of like, have been bringing this up subsequently.

He's like, well, of course. What else were we going to do? And it's like it doesn't seem like it's really about the plot. twist for him. It's about enhancing our understanding of the thing that we knew to be true. And so I won't be surprised if when somebody asks him about the Death Star singer, he's like, well, of course. Like, of course I was going to surprise you or make you go, oh my God. It was to connect all of these strands that we know are a part of the story. Again, I'm not Tony Gilroy. So maybe that's not what he'll say. I also, I wouldn't be totally surprised. I wouldn't be that surprised

if he was like, there's a post credit scene. This is the first time hearing of this. You know, when people would ask him about like the Star Wars references in Luton's shop, and he's like, someone put that in there. Like, they know these things. He's like, what exactly is a Gungan? Yeah. And why does it need a shield? I guess. Show up and the cereal was there.

Kathy Kennedy must have stuck that stinger in when I wasn't looking. But yeah, one thing that impressed me so much about the season was just like how Indoor did more with less when it came to conveying the empire's power and how just seeing like a. single tie fighter was mind-blowing, just the scale that it was on, you know? And so seeing the Death Star completely blows that up in a way. Like, I think my episode seven recap, the headline was and or finally looks like Star Wars, which was based on, I think that was the one where maybe we finally saw some Stormtroopers or we finally saw a Star Destroyer for a second overhead. But just seeing one tie fighter or a few tie fighters on like a ground level, you know, like a street level tie fighter where it's kind of kicking up dirt on Aldani, that was breathtaking, I think,

in a way that seeing the Death Star wasn't. So, again, seeing the Death Star doesn't spoil that for me or anything. It's just I was really impressed by the restraint and how they stayed away from doing that and how every little bit where they pulled back the curtain, it was mind-blowing. It was really threatening to see even some semblance of the power just because it had been so restricted compared to the way that we usually see these things depicted. Okay, so Mallory has done a Rings of Power podcast with me, and Ben has done a better call Saul podcast with me, which means you both know that I love a theory. Ben Lindberg, I heard you had a Death Star theory you wanted to float for us today.

Yeah, so this is kind of related to a question that I've had in the back of my mind about this entire season. And I don't know if it's just me who's been hung up on this, which would not be unusual. But it's kind of been nagging at the back of my mind. And I will preface this with two disclaimers. One is that this is a pretty minor confusion in the back of my mind, not a serious flaw with the story or anything. And second, I don't want to be the person who complains because they expect a show to do one thing and it does a different thing. And then they're like, this sucks because it isn't exactly the show I wanted. But I think what surprised me more than the Stinger and what was in that is what wasn't in the finessexie.

alley, which was some sort of information or clarification on the flashbacks that we saw in the first three episodes to kid, Kasa, right, and his homeworld and his sister and how exactly his relationship with Marva evolved. And just the more that I think about that, the less I understand anything about Cassian's origin story, right? Like the details exactly of what happened with his homeworld and with his sister because we're told that Canari was abandoned after an imperial mining disaster and that it's considered toxic. But then the flashbacks to Canari in the first three episodes, which take place prior to the Clone Wars, shows a planet that seems to have been, and according to the Star Wars website, which seems pretty official, already has been strip mined and already has been caught in an industrial mining. disaster. So I've been wondering, is that alleged imperial mining disaster different from

whatever pre-imperial disaster has already struck when we meet CASA there and presumably separated the kids from their parents? There's a Star Wars website entry that refers to unspecified plunderers who carved up the land, leaving disaster in their wake and small tribes of orphans left to survive on their own. So I'm kind of unclear on the sequence of events there, which isn't super important probably, but we're also told that the kids killed a republic officer, right, which was the whole premise for Marva spiriting Casso away from the planet because he would be in danger from the incoming Republic frigate. Right. Yeah, that's a very charitable way to put it. And again, even the Star Wars website says and acknowledges, and this is something I noticed when

the first episodes aired and have been confused about ever since, that the crew members on that ship, who are all are mostly dead, they're wearing on their uniforms a symbol that we know as the separatist symbol. And so I've been wondering, are they proto-separatists? Because again, this is supposedly prior to the Clone Wars? If so, is the crew of this Republic frigate part of that group or a different group? Would they have even cared if these proto-separatists were killed? Why were they dead?

Like, what happened? This gas disaster? You know, is that related to why the planet is toxic? Were they always headed there or they divert there because they were crashing? So that I've been wondering about because that seems like it wouldn't be an accident, right? I mean, there are people who are well-versed, right? The Vatican, as Gilroy says, who are checking all these things. They wouldn't just use the wrong insignia on the uniform.

So presumably that's supposed to signify something. And then lastly, again, you were just alluding to it. I mean, Marva sedates Kasa against his will, right? Kidnaps him, separates him from his sister, his home, his friends. We see him wake up on her ship. We see her turn to smile at him. But I've been wondering what comes next? Like, what is the first thing out of his mouth at that point?

Like, what the hell, lady? Like, why did you just take me away from? Is it hashtag makes solo two happen? I would hope. Is it season two appearance flashback from? Fiona Shaw? Could be, right? But like, you'd think that he would be like, hey, like, bring me back, you know, or pick up my sister and all those other kids.

Like, there would have to be a conversation about that, right? So how did he go from being abducted and forcibly separated from his sister by a total stranger to then where we are in the present, where their mother and son? And they have this great loving relationship. So as much as the farewell from Marva and everything that happens with Marva in this episode hits me, I feel like it might have hit me even harder if we had seen their relationship grow if I understood better how they went from point A to point B. And the series is only half over. So I don't want to be impatient here. I don't mind waiting for answers if these answers are coming. But because they never even really nodded back to these questions that have been bouncing around in my mind for the past nine episodes or so.

And again, right, unless Fiona Shaw comes back for flashbacks. And plus, unless they already shot some footage, the actor who played Kid Cassian is already going to have aged past that point, right? So I'm not sure whether this was all more confusing than it had to be or whether I'm supposed to be confused because answers to these questions are coming in season two. So that's the thing. Like usually a show kind of teaches you how to watch it, right? And you get a sense of, okay, this is something I don't know yet, but they are intentionally withholding this information because there's going to be a reveal. There's going to be a big stinger at the end of the episode. In this case, though, I don't really have a sense of whether we are coming back to these things, like whether I'm supposed to be thinking these things, whether it's just sort of supposed to be swept under the rug.

And, hey, we know he left. And that's all that matters. Okay. I feel like you're like in a, I love you. I think you're in a C3BO, like, anxiety space. And I want to pull you out of it and say. What is your theory about how this connects to the Death Star? Yeah, so I think one way it could, if this is all intentionally being obscured and hidden from us reserved for season two,

maybe it could be that there's something Death Star related about his origin story from Canary, right? Because one of the things that I think people might be sort of surprised when they see the Stinger and they realize this Death Star, it looks pretty close to complete at this point already. right? We're four years away from Rogue One at this point, and yet it looks like they just have to put the finishing touches on this thing. They just have to sort of screw in the super laser and they'll be good to go. Fully operational, baby. Right. And I can give you a little bit of the backstory of the Death Star, but it's a long backstory, which I think probably people who haven't really delved into the lore surrounding this thing, which, as you said, now we don't know everything. But we do know that it goes back decades. And that's why I wonder whether potentially this mining disaster or the mining that's happening on Canari could have been related to the Death Star from the start that maybe some of the raw materials were coming from there. Because if so, there would be sort of a pleasing symmetry to that. I think it would help explain the Rogue One line.

I've been in this fight since I was six years old. And I think it would also reveal that maybe Cassian's entire life was digging. dictated by the Death Star from beginning to end, right? Because I think that's why the Stinger is powerful, that confirmation that that's what the widgets were for, because we know, okay, he's helping build this thing, that we know he's going to play a crucial part in destroying, and that is also going to destroy him a few years down the road. So if it turns out that from the very start, his life has just been inextricable from the Death Star, that perhaps there was some mining disaster that separated him from his parents and that was related to the origins of the Death Star, then that could be a cool thing, I think, if just his entire life was tied to this super weapon that takes him out and that he indirectly takes out too.

So that's what I'm sort of hoping for, or at least that would explain why this wasn't all made clear. And again, like, I'm probably overthinking this. That's what I do. Yeah, but you love that about you, Ben. We wouldn't be any other way. Right. And I don't know. Like, are these things clearer to you two or have you just decided that they aren't important, which is completely valid?

Well, I'm more, I'm less bothered about the, the, because I'm not on a, you are on another level than I am in terms of like insignia watch and stuff like that. But I'm more from a narrative point of view, and again, I don't mind waiting for it. but it really feels like the search for his sister was this thing that felt important in the beginning. Yeah, it's the first scene of the series. Marva says leave it in episode seven, right? There's nothing for you there, which I don't know if that's a way to wrap that up and Cassie doesn't think about it anymore, or if that means Marva knows more than we think. That's how I took it.

And also, I remember you and I had the audience of it if it's not going to come into play again. Yeah, I remember you and I had that conversation. But like as it exists right now, to not come back to it again before the season's over. Right. With a two-year break between seasons. Yeah, it almost feels like an abandoned, you know, this happens in longer seasons of television that there's like an abandoned arc or whatever. It almost feels like a thing that they thought was going to be important and then decided later

they didn't want to make it as important as it was. Because like the whole, the way that people are like, is Deidre his sister? Is this person's sister? Is this person his sister? Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it's that kind of. show. I don't think so either. Though I could, you know, I could be wrong. Luthin seems to have like a preoccupation with Cassian that, that, you know, predates seeing what he can do. So, you know,

there definitely do seem to be some questions in the mix there. But to not mention his sister again, when as you say, it starts with him looking for his sister was a little surprising to be. Yeah. And I don't, I don't care if he has a sister particularly, you know. Like, I'm so absorbed to in this series, and there's so much going on, and there's so many characters that if they'd never mentioned a sister, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be going, sister, you know, like Darth Vader. I mean, I'm not, I don't need that necessarily. It's just that they seem to lay that groundwork, right, for this to be a big story. And I still assume they're going to come back to it at some point.

But, you know, like, Jin Erso seems sisterly. Like, that's the only bond that I need of that kind with Cassian. So, so, yeah, it's, it's. They gave you brother-sister vibes, Cass and gin? Yeah. Pretty sure they fucked in the lift. Yeah. I think they had sex on the way down to the beach.

Well, Luke and Leah. Yeah, right. One of the same. It's all in the soup. Oh, boy. Great point. Ben, you're having your own like Nemic. I'm struggling to understand why my faith doesn't calm me moment, you know?

You believe in the storytelling structure of Andor, but you have questions about this. I really like the Canary Death Store, Death Star. I guess it's all a death store in a way if you're forging tickets for the Death Star. Theory, I really like that. I think that, like, everything you said about the connection across Cassian's life would really work and hit hard. I think that also kind of tracks with the question or could help resolve that question,

man of the timeline of which disaster because we see the destroyed mine, the parents are gone, so that something horrible has happened, but then this implication that something terrible happens later, like honestly, like maybe there's a, because, yeah, there's that yellow gas

that kills everyone on the ship, but Clem tells Marva that they could take their breathing masks off, that it's not toxic anymore. So like, does some other horrible thing happen? Is it a cover? Because, like, that's one of, that is one of the things

that traces through Death Star origin canon, right? It's like the empire doesn't want anyone to know what it's making or how. And so the idea of, like, stay away from this toxic planet that we have used to build our Death Star in some way would, I think track really cleanly. The Marva element, I just again, I don't think she mentions it's in, at all,

but certainly in a conversation we are paying that much attention to. Like that's one of the scenes of the season, that conversation between Marvin and Cassian and for that to be like the final note of it, we're going to like harp on that and wonder. I just think we have to learn more. Though I guess there could be,

I don't agree that the gin vibes are sisterly vibes. However, I think that the found family idea is a powerful one that we return too often. And maybe at some point Cassian decides that he has found his peace with not continuing to search, that the family that he has is the rebel alliance that he's forged. Like that, something like that could be interesting. I do still ultimately think, though,

the sister comes back into play in season two. It's just too many mentions otherwise. Bix, which he used to fuck, who he used to fucking use a teenager. I don't see that one as sisterly, to be clear. But I totally, it's that I just, I have so much respect for, for Tony Gilroy as a storyteller. that I guess I hold him to a standard where, and he holds himself to a standard, he says, where he wants everything to be ship-shape and accounted for, right? Like he wants everything to make sense and to fall into place and for the puzzle to come out

looking the way it's supposed to. So if this were Bukaboba, I'd probably just be like, well, I guess they forgot about that thread. But because it's Andor, I assume everything is there for a reason. So the fact that I am focusing on these things at all is kind of a sign of respect. You know, it's a testament to just how good the series is that I expect that every breadcrumb is not there by accident. And so I keep coming back to it. If we're at the end of season two and don't have any further clarity on the sister or canary, I will be very surprised. And I will be right there with you, Ben, in a confounded state.

I think this feels a little bit of alike. these episodes have been so fully realized. And like each of them, they connect and they build. But they're each these like precious gems of 45 to 52 minute increments. Like the Canari thing feels unusual inside of Andor because it is typical for TV. Right. And like it's a little bit of a let's, you know, call it what you want. Let's call it a multi-season television show element, I think.

We're like, I feel like we will get this answer in season two. Maybe not, but I think we will. Yeah, let's close out with exactly what Marva said. This is the very what did Marva say episode of television in episode seven. She says, just one more thing. Just stop searching for your sister. It's a fantasy. There were no survivors on Canari.

What happened there was not your responsibility. You were a child. Let it go. So, Ben, until we meet again in Andor's season two. I hope for your own sanity and peace. You let this go. I love obsessing it right there. Share your dreams with the ghost of that quote.

Make your life a suddenless space as you try to puzzle this out. I will. I love this series and I love discussing it with you. So thank you. Always a joy, Ben. Thank you so much. I'm all right. I'm all right.

Before we go, one last, one last turn. around the secret force user track. I don't know. That got way away from me. I'm so sorry. Pod racing? This is pod racing? I don't know.

Anyway, should we come up with a secret force user for this episode of Android? Ooh, of course we should. Okay. Secret force user in this episode. It's not DEDRA,

who just like gets swept into the crowd in a way that I don't think a secret force user ever would. Do you think it's Cyril? Because of the way that he just, like, sensed exactly. where to go. It might be serial card.

Yeah. I like it. I'll go with Mosque. They could be the master and apprentice. There's always two. Oh my God. All right. That does it for Ann or Season 1.

We loved this show so much. We're so glad that you all came along for the ride with us. As we mentioned, we'll be back next week with some Willow content. Seriously, what are you doing this weekend? Staying out with your family. Watch Willow. with them. Avoiding your family. Watch Willow by yourself. Win, win. Great stuff. And then listen to Mallory and just, like, cry her way through this podcast, which I don't want to overpromise and under deliver,

but I'm going to say that that's going to happen. So yeah, next week is Willow Week. Please come back for that. And then we'll be back with, you know, fun, random stuff for the rest of the year, kind of, you know, December we get to play. So that's really fun. Thanks, as always, to my beloved Mallory Rubin and our sweet sweet B for making it out of lives so I didn't have to deal with Mallory in a puddle for this episode. Thank God. Thanks to

our Gina Rangelichapal for his production work on this episode, to Jomey at Dineran for his amazing, incredible work on the social. To Mike Morgon, who for stepping in for Steve and editing this episode on a holiday week. We really appreciate you, Mike. And we'll be back next week.

Bye. Feels like every product claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source. Like real California milk from California farm families, it's real dairy delivering high quality, complete protein with all nine essential amino acids to help build muscle, give you energy, and keep you satisfied longer. So keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk. You can't reason with the sun. us. We've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute.

Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your summer at Columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on allotion. You're welcome. Columbia, engineered for whatever.