The Ringer-Verse - 'Andor' Episode 8 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: October 29, 2022

Mal and Joanna return once again to a galaxy far, far away to discuss the latest episode of ‘Andor.’ But first, they are joined by Ben Lindbergh to take a deeper look into Saw Gerrera, his character history, and how he interacts with the rest of the rebels (7:33). Then, they go for a deep dive into the episode, breaking down each character and storyline, while answering your questions (42:10). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Guest: Ben Lindbergh Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Think of it. Think of spellhouse in flames. Neither of you could do it on your own, but together. Krieger's a separatist. Mypays, a neo-Republican. The Gorman Front, the partisan alliance, sectorists, human cultists, galaxy petitionists. They're lost. All of them, lost.

Lost! What are you? Luther? I've never really know. But are you? I'm a coward. I'm a coward. I'm a man who's terrified the empire's power will grow beyond the point where we can do anything to stop it.

I'm the one who says we'll die with nothing. If we don't put aside our petty differences. Pity! I am the only one with clarity of purpose. Well, anarchy is a seductive concept. A bit of a luxury, I'd argue to a man. who's hiding in cold caves and begging for spare parts.

Back into the ringerverse. Your nexus, podcast, feed for all things fandom. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today. It's our fourth pod together this week. We're running on fumes and pisos and reslogs and greedy, greedy green ones. It's my house of our working title. co-host

Mallory Rubin. Hi Mallory. How are you? Joe. Now we've both had our mornings interrupted. Great to be here with you to talk about this wonderful television show. What a thrill. We're here to talk about Andor, episode 8, Narkina 5.

A fantastic episode of television. Here we are. So good. On the dawn of a new arc for Andor. thrilled to be here. We're going to dive right in, but first, programming reminders. Listen, you should do yourself a solid and listen to the Midnight Boys. They got a lot going on.

You should go listen to them to talk about Black Adam. You should listen to them talk about this episode of Andor. Just the best. I love those guys. I'm so thrilled that I get to work with them. So that's it. And then we'll be back next Friday for Andor. Like, a bit of a slimmer schedule than we've been running.

But, you know, we're going to get back into the thick of it. We're in a little, like, content valley. But Andor is here with us in that valley. And that makes me really happy. Mallory, if people want to get in touch with us about Andor, how can they do that? Oh, so many ways. First of all, send us your transmissions. We've got our com links active over at Hobbits and,

Dragons at gmail.com. Keep the emails coming. Send them about Andor. Send them about House of the Dragon if you're catching up on those pods. Send them about all of the new shows and movies that await in 2023. Send them about year end. Best of rankings. Anything that's on your mind.

Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com also. Yeah. I just want to say we got an email today, today about the Apple debate that we had on Rings of Power like literally weeks ago. So if you're catching up a ring of power. It's never too late to reach out with your apple thoughts. And you'll be glad to know Mallory, I was thoroughly admonished for my terrible apple takes. But my apple, like, consumption rate has gone way up.

It's sort of like in defiance of people who telling me that I love Grady's Miss is a bad thing. So I've been eating a lot of great apples lately. It's apple season. I've been enjoying some lovely honey crisps, some pink ladies, delightful. Little little peanut butter? Yeah. As an accompaniment? Wonderful. Anyway, if you want to know, are we going to be talking about apples, ranking other favorite fruits in the future?

You can always find out what's cooking over here at the ringerverse by following the pod. Follow the pod on Spotify. Sure. Or wherever you get your podcasts. And you know what else? Follow the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We are everywhere. The ringer versus on Twitter.

The ringerverses on Instagram. The ringer versus on TikTok, Facebook, all over the place. Follow along. Last but not least. Your friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. And that is say, guess what? This is a prequel series to a film called Rogue One. Not only is Rogue One on the table for this episode discussion, but everything Star Wars, your comic books.

your video games, your animated series, your live action films, all of it. It's all kosher. So you've been warned. That is what's going on here on House of Our. So yeah, we're here to talk about episode eight, Narcina 5, written by Bo Willemann, directed by Toby Haynes. Bo Willemann, probably best known for House of Cards, an incredible TV series with that. an regrettable, regrettable main actor. But Bo Willemann's, like, thoughts on government and power is always very interesting. So it's really fun to have him on the staff for these three episodes, this little three-episode arc we're about to do centered on Cassian in prison.

But before we get to Cassian and everything else, we want to start with that guy that we heard at the top of the episode. Oscar winner, Forrest Whitaker ever heard of him playing Sagaera? A lot. A reprising his role from Rogue One elsewhere. Should we grab our pal Ben Lindbergh to come talk about Saugara? Lies? Deception.

Ben Lemberg! Ben Lernberg, what a joy it is to have you back with us to talk about Sagarara. Like, what a thrill to have him in a TV show. How do you feel about seeing Saw again? What a thrill to be here. I am the only one with clarity of purpose because today my sole purpose is to talk to you about Saw Guerrera. Yeah, great to see Saw again.

Can we just take a moment to acknowledge the centrality of Saw to Star Wars these days? It's amazing. This character has come a long way. This is actually, this character first appeared 10 years ago this month in the Clone War season episode of War on Two Fronts. So happy anniversary. Happy Sawiversary. Yeah.

That is, by the way, the same month that Disney announced its purchase of Lucasfilm, an absolute steal at $4.05 billion. So the anniversary of that announcement is this Sunday, changed all of our lives as Star Wars fans and podcasters. But I like to think that the appearance of Saw sealed the deal. That's what got them to sign on the dotted line. How many multiples of $4 billion would Disney pay for Lucasfilm today, I wonder? I mean, the Grogu merch alone probably paid for that.

I mean, Mallory's purchase of Grogu merch alone, I think, probably paid for that. Yeah. Sweet baby Grogo. Really, though. Like, look at this guy making moves. Like, he's on Clone Wars. He's on Rebels. He's on Bad Batch.

He's on Banddor. He's like Wong in Phase 4. He's everywhere. Like, what other character? has been in so many different TV projects at this point. I guess Asoka, Obi-Wan, not many others. Yeah, and of course he's in a movie, Rogue One, and a canonical video game, Jedi Fallen Order.

He's just, he's a multi-hyphen-it. So it's impressive. I have a question for Mallory. Mallory, do you perhaps have an opinion about which version of Saw is the best version of Saw? I was just going to ask Ben, do you remember when we did our Bad Batch Pod and had like a lot of actual core can

And an updates to talk about, but definitely spent the bulk of the pod talking about how hot animated soccer era is. Yeah. And I stand by it. Oh, absolutely. I mean, with all these projects, like, we've seen him go from handsome young freedom fighter to grizzled cyborg fanatic. And I'm back again. It's just, it's a lot to keep track of. No breathing tube here yet.

No. Grizzled cyborg fanatic is really what I'm aiming for. Like, that's my future trajectory, I hope. He's nailing that look. So just take your. notes from Saa. Okay. So Saw's here to talk to Luthan, or Luthan's here, rather, to talk to Saa, to trade some tech,

some gear in exchange for help on a mission. Mal, like, we're throwing around, like, some places and characters we haven't met yet, but, like, what are you gleaning from this interaction between Lutthin and Saw? Well, we have this, first of all, delightful little bit of foreplay at the beginning of the conversation where they're each trying to get the other one to admit the responsibility for Aldani. Yes. Luthin's not fessing up, which is,

it's just a wonderful exchange that gives us a feel for their respective temperaments. The, let's agree it was a masterpiece. Note from Saw and the genuine reverence in his voice when he says it, like sets the tone so fittingly for what's to calm. But of course, the next part of that exchange is the real tone set.

which is Saw saying, aren't you tired of playing behind the scenes, Luton, and Luton saying, aren't you tired of fighting with people who agree with you? And that's the heart of this exchange. Reinforcing for us, not only for these two characters, Saw Guerrera, one of the poster characters for extremism inside of Star Wars, but also Luton, the wider nascent fledgling rebellion, all of these different factions, all of these different cells, the pursuit for unity is not an easy one for the rebel alliance.

These characters cannot get on the same page, and that's the through line of this conversation. Even though Luton is pitching that exact outcome, we will not be able to tackle this foe unless we can come together. Saw is fundamentally uninterested in that long laundry list of opponents who are in theory allies fighting for the same thing the downfall of the rebellion. So that was the heart of this.

I mean, I will say, I'm not inclined to throw in with human cultists, whatever that might be, but, you know, I mean, all of us have to draw our line somewhere. Ben, on that, like, extremist front, Sao's reputation as, as the extremist of this franchise.

Like, what can you tell us about his history in that regard? Yeah, so Saugh goes back a bit, as we were saying, Dave Faloni, who's been my special Star Wars Daddy for many years now, but has to fight for my affections with Tony Gilroy at this point, has called Saad the original Rebel, the beginning of what would eventually become the Rebel Alliance.

And he was conceived by George Lucas, got to give him props for Star Wars Underworld, the gritty live action show that never got made, but has sort of seated and inspired other projects. And his name, you know, you can hear it. It sort of sounds like the word for war in Spanish. It's supposed to evoke Che Guevara. The characters kind of modeled on Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse,

So that extremism is really built into the character. And in the scene, which I love, just give them the Emmys, like whatever ones, Patty Considine doesn't win, just give them to these guys. Just such a joy to watch them work here. And there's a lot of subtext and shared history in this scene that's conveyed really economically, I think. Like, there's a history here. There's a mutual respect on some level. Luthan calls Saw my friend. They banter back and forth.

And, you know, like, Luton has the confidence, has the history, has the standing to kind of poke fun at Saw, which, like, he's not the easiest hang necessarily. But he's making fun of him, telling him he'd be sitting in these cold caves, even if he had 100 million credits, joking that he knows Sala must have orchestrated the mission when he calls it a masterpiece, right? Because he's kind of full of himself. But then the mood shifts so quickly. And Saas says you come all this way to scold me and you get that great unhinged Forrest Whitaker energy, right, where he can just completely turn on a dime and basically lose it. And when he says, I'm not going to put my people at risk for someone else, that's the whole point

of this enterprise, right? That's what they're doing here. Yes. But he feels very territorial about it. It's my way to win this war, right? And even though these guys. are pretty closely aligned on the whole oppression breeds rebellion point. There's still just not enough common cause here.

He's just too set in his ways as someone who works alone. And it really goes back to the beginning of Sa's history. And I can just kind of hit the high points or really a lot of low points in Saas' life. But he comes from the planet, Andoran. It's a jungle world that was neutral in the Clone Wars until it was invaded by the separatists who installed a puppet leader and Saw and his sister, Stila, started a rebel cell there, but they were under-equip, so they reached out for assistance from the Republic, which sends Obi-Wan, Anakin, Asoka, and Rex, the dream team.

Yeah, the military advisors, right? And this is all in a four-episode Clone Wars arc, the second through fifth episodes of season five. And what's interesting is that when Saw and his sister rose up originally, they were fighting to restore a deposed king. They're monarchists. They're not fighting for representative democracy at this point, but I guess the king you know is better than the Darth Sidious. You don't. So that's interesting. I think what's also interesting is that Sa is feuding right from the get-go with his fellow rebels, including his sister. So it's like Luton says, aren't you tired of fighting with people who agree with you? The answer is no. Saa never tires of fighting with his ostensible allies, even if he's related to them because he wants to be in charge

he's completely uncompromising. He has no patience for politics. And on Anderan, his violence against the separatists scares the civilians, which Saa interprets as a sign that he just hasn't done enough to de-weaponize the separatists. He doesn't recognize that they're scared of him to some extent. And naturally, Asoka and Obi-Wan, they try to pump his brakes a bit. Well, Anakin's like, hell yeah, yes, Saw, you're killing it. Like, Saw wants to win the war, but he doesn't want to win hearts and minds. And he doesn't see until later how the latter might help with the former. It's kind of like we discussed last week, right? He's sort of on the opposite end of the resistance spectrum from Monmouthma with someone like Leah in the middle who's good at playing politics, but she'll also

get blood on her hands directly. And there's a scene in a Claudia Gray book called Bloodline, which is set decades after the original trilogy where a new republic senator is talking to Leah and questioning the alliance's quote-unquote terrorist tactics, which is how we hear the empire refer to this raid on Aldani in Andor. And this is, you know, decades later, the war is over, right? And so people in peacetime can look back and say, did they go too far? And the senator specifically cites Saas partisans and also basically uses Randall's argument from clerks about the innocent contractors killed on the death star. And Leah's like, look, buddy, they blow. out my planet, we did what had to be done, really aligning herself with Saw, echoing Saw's

justifications for not abiding by whatever the equivalent of the Star Wars Geneva Convention is. We have, so we have these references to like Anto Krieger and Spellhouse, which not even our brilliant expert, Ben Lindbergh knows what those things are. So like, presumably we're setting those up for maybe the two-part final arc. That would be my guess, something like that. But we do get another Gorman reference. We've had several of them in the series so far. And Ben mentioned, I think, last week in our mom off a section, how that ties into her story. But I'm curious, like, for you, Mallory, like, do you think we're, like, the Gorman plants here are to pay off in a plot we will see, or just little seeds for people who already know what role

the Gorman massacre plays in the larger story? I don't know. I mean, I mean, you know, we talked last week a bit about like how we're moving through time, knowing that season one was going to cover one year and season two is going to cover four years. So I think we're going to have to move like pretty quickly at a pretty rapid clip through the rest of this timeline leading up to the events of Rogue One. Maybe it's there to just remind us that this will be a seminal event. I think, Joe, much like you said in the spoiler warning at the top, it's like that's true for many viewers too, right, taking into account things that are known from the future. the timeline. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we end up seeing the Gorman Massacre,

given how many times we've heard mention of that here, though, that feels like we would at least see the fallout of that. But it's a familiar thing for people who have watched rebels. So either way, I think it's effective and works. Similarly, when we're thinking about, like, Saas extremism, we're not yet at the point in the timeline where we're going to watch in rebels as he tries to just a full-on genocide. on Geonosis. But that's a thing that people are bringing to seeing the character

in addition to everything that we know is a part of his approach and a part of his really like sacred, unflinching creed in Rogue One. We bring all of that with us to this earlier moment in the timeline. It's part of what makes this a really effective prequel to a prequel, I think.

Yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about just bringing Saw to the present here because over this whole arc of various projects that we see him in, we see him in various states of cyborgness, but also extremism. And we kind of get a look at how he became this guy. He had some pre-existing Colonel Kurt's tendencies to start with, but all of these things get exacerbated really under pressure, which is something that Tony Gilroy has talked about, right?

Like what pressure does to these characters. And we've seen that with Saw. So ultimately, back on Anderon, the resistance movement chooses Stela, his sister, as its leader. Saw gets pissed. He disobeys orders. He stages his own rescue of the king. That backfires, leads to his capture and, crucially, his torture by a droid, General Kalani. And he gets rescued from that. But the war rages on. Then another tragedy occurs when Saw uses a rocket launcher to shoot down a separatist ship, which crashes into a cliff where his sister is, causing her to fall to her death. So ultimately, they win. if you can call it that, kind of a Pyrrhic victory on Anderan, where the rebels beat back the separatists, they drive them off the planet, they reinstate the king. But by that point, Saw is scarred psychologically and increasingly physically. He has killed. He has almost been killed. He holds himself responsible for his sister's death. He's just sad and angry and probably suffering from PTSD. And all of this just exacerbates his built-in intensity. And then no sooner does he oust the separatists from his homeworld than the republic he's allied with turns into the empire.

Oops. So Saas war isn't over. And as he says in the Bad Batch, the Clone Wars may have ended, but a civil war is about to begin. So he forms a new cell called the Partizans. That's who we see here to resist the empire on Anderan and throughout the galaxy. And then as we see in the Bad Batch, Tarkin wants to take him out, sends Clone Force 99 to do that, which leads most of. of the Bad Batch to break good and defect themselves. So he's fighting the empire on all fronts, basically.

Saan the partisans, they help smuggle the ursos off of Corrassant, which creates his connection to Jin, leads to his becoming her mentor after her mother is killed and her dad is captured. He pops up in Jedi Fallen Order to team up with Calcestis, son Kashik, and eventually, of course, he abandoned Jin, partly for her protection, partly for his, because he's paranoid that Jin would be identified as Galen's daughter and that that would be used against them. So years later, actually after Andor, he assassinations a moff who is viewed as a potential ally for the rebels. And in the process, almost inadvertently kills Leia as well, which turns the rest of the rebels against

him, though it turns out that the moff had deduced Leia's parentage that Padway was her mother and was going to tell Pappy about it. So Saw sort of saved the day, which is sort of saw in a nutshell, you can't create a an alliance with him, but you can't really win a rebellion without him. He's just almost a necessary evil. And as Mal was mentioning, he pops up in a two-parter on rebels called Ghost of Geonosis, where he wants to, yeah, he wants to exterminate the geonosons, and he and Ezra and Rex have this exchange where they say, if you harm that egg, you're helping the empire wipe out the last of his kind, the last of his family. I don't care. He says, yes, you do. I know you care, because you know

what it's like to lose family. And he says, yeah, I know what it's like. I lost my sister to the separatist and my planet to the empire. I'm fighting for you and everyone else not to lose what they've got. And I won't apologize for how I do it. And they tell him, then you're no better than the empire. And that same sort of argument recurs with Mon Mothma in another two-parter in the name of the rebellion, which we mentioned last week, where they kind of clash over tactics. Most do you hate each other. Yeah, not a lot of love loss there. Eventually, Mon persuades the alliance high command to censure him and several official ties with the partisans, though they still need him and kind of back channel with him. So that's what it keeps coming back to with him.

Can you beat the bad guys without becoming them, which is especially poignant, I think, because when we see Saw for the last time in Rogue One, he's like Anakin, kind of he's turned into more machine than man. And yet there's still the humanity in there. There's a comic book that tells us that he's thinking of his sister, Stila, and saying her name as the shockwave hits him here. But also thinking of his family-in-losses he sucks the identity and memory and sense of self out of the people he's tormenting. That too, yeah. What was Rizumad really doing with all of that anyway? Do you know what I mean?

Shout out, Borgullet. So, yeah. I mean, you kind of, you want saw on your side in a sense. At least you don't want to make an enemy of him. And you can't win this war with a whole lot of Monmothmas, it seems like, which really is fascinating to me because if you wanted me to do a lore deep dive on Luthin, it would be a very short segment because we know nothing, right? We can maybe infer some things about his background, but we don't know where he came from, what the crucible was that caused him to become who he is. It's like Saw says, what are you, right? We don't know.

We're trying to find out. And I think it's one of the main mysteries of this series, really, from a plot perspective, is what happens to this guy, right? Because we know what happens to Cassia, we know what happens to Ma'an, we know what happens to Sa. But oddly, Luton seems to be absent by the time Rogue One rolls around. Yeah, and that reminds us of a lot of conversations you and I had around Better Call Saul, right? Ben, where it's like it's nice to have blank spots on the bingo card in terms of, like, characters, you know, because this is an episode where we watch Cassian go into a prison that we know. know he's going to escape from because that that's a prequel function. I wanted to, like, for all the amazing points that you just made about this, like, spectrum of rebels that we're seeing from Mon and her more centrist position to saw in his extremist position and what lies in between.

We got this really incredible email I thought from one of our listeners, John that I wanted to read. It's a little long. But John wrote, I wanted to chime into your discussion of Luthin and of the rebels, possibly becoming what they most hate. particularly around Luthan's plan for the empire to tighten its grip, more to show everyone the necessity of rebellion. I disagree that we're meant to have this read of Luthin or the rebellion writ large, and that's partly why I'm loving Andor the show so much. It has a more radical and nuanced view of rebellion and empire as concepts,

and it seems poised to maybe counter the idea so common in modern pop culture, that revolutionaries are good until they go too far. Most of the time in these big stories, we have characters who want to overthrow the current corrupt order who are ultimately villainized by the story because they use violence. See Tom Zerick from Battlestar Galactica, Killmonger from Black Panther, and Amon and the Red Lotus from The Legend of Cora, just to name a few. These characters all have great points that would make their worlds better, but their stories eventually either turn them into villains around the idea of violence or reveal that they were scammers from the beginning. This is the role that Saul Guerrero has fulfilled in most of the new Star Wars canon, for example, rebellions and revolutions or messy effects. affairs and rarely end cleanly or succeed without violence. The Rebel Alliance kills many,

many people, even in just the original trilogy. Shout out your clerk's reference. I think it's fair to grapple with the cost of rebellion and revolution, but I think the read and or is going for is is that all of this is necessary. No matter what the rebellion does, its victory will mean a better galaxy than the empire's rule. The greater and more effective a push for changes, the more the reactionary elements in charge will clamp down. The empire will not allow the rebellion to succeed purely by righteous and morally pure actions. It will require killing and theft and lies.

And many in instance, having their lives ruined or ended, it will be a bitter cost, but it will be worth it in the end. Andor wants us to grapple with these questions, but I think nothing that our characters will do will make them anywhere close to a galactic-wide system of fascism and oppression. they are not becoming the monsters they fight, but it will still take a lot from them and ask a lot of them. I'm very excited by the knowledge that Sa will be in this season.

I've been hoping that we can get a Star Wars story that can allow Saw to offer sympathetic reading of his values and his methods. We don't have to agree with Saw's perspective, but I love for a Star Wars story to not present him as the going too far always. Let the viewers make their own decisions, but still have the narrative give Saw's opinions

a fair shake. Ben, any reactions to that? Yeah, I definitely don't think the message of Andor is that the empire is good actually or that the rebels are bad. You know, I think there are times that you catch yourself maybe kind of rooting for Dedra, let's say, right? And, you know, she's so good at her job and she's battling against these workplace impediments. And you're like, hey, she's so competent. And then you remember who she is and who she works for and what that uniform means and what it would mean for her to succeed. So I think it's really largely about maybe the personal cost that is imposed on these early formative figures so that Luke can come in later and be the farm boy and just bullseye the wamp rad and blow up the Destar and seemingly not have any second thoughts about that, at least in the moment.

It's presented as purely heroic because, you know, it's kind of a just war at that point. I think once the Death Star has blown up a planet, you sort of have to bring a stop to that. and there's a little less moral complication, you know, independent contractors aside, condolences to the contractors. But I think Andor is presenting just what Saw always presents, which is just it's dark, right? To be this freedom fighter, it takes a toll on you, even if your cause is righteous, which I think his largely is. It's the whole, you know, light side, dark side dynamic that we're familiar with from many Star Wars stories. And we're always in favor of the gray, right? And people who kind of live in the middle there. And I think we're seeing a lot of that in indoor, which is really welcome. I think that the show asking that question or encouraging us as viewers to think about where the line is is actually the point, right? Like, it's not.

Only Steph's deal in absolutes. It's not an either-or. You can't be purely good. And the show is not interested in presenting that light side, dark side binary. But I don't see the idea of that question being in conflict with that. I think the opposite. I will just admit to not being a political scientist, so not always having the absolute correct words when talking about rebellion and stuff like that.

But like the necessary cost of a rebellion and where is that line? And I agree with you, Mal and I agree with both of you that like we're meant. to be in the gray and questioning where that line is. I think that's interesting to think about, but I think what the ethos of Andor might be a little further across the line than sort of what Ben is talking about in terms of once we get to Star Wars A New Hope, it's just light, we feel like we're in just light side, dark side territory. Yeah, for sure.

When we were talking about Lutheran and Mon as like sort of this binary, But when you add Sawin, then all of a sudden, Luthin is like in the middle of that spectrum. Yeah, I think, but right. And to me, that's like what the, we're seeing that whole spectrum and all of the different people along that spectrum and the different points of view along the spectrum.

And that's what's interesting about it. Like, you're not just assessing Luthon's motives or what he views as morally acceptable in a vacuum or only through his perspective. When Luton says to Saw, we need them angry, we need them coming down hard, oppression breeds rebellion. The fact that he is saying that to Saa Guerrera of all people like unlocks a new level of understanding for us and a new insight into that variance and that degree.

Like that, again, I think that was the key point of that scene is the fact that like the people who have the most reason to fight for that common cause together can't figure out a way to do that. And in some cases, like Luton want to figure out how to but can't. And in some cases, like Saws, actually actively are opposed to the idea of finding that common way forward. And the only one with the clarity of purpose line is the encapsulation of that, like a genuine belief that he carries with him that not only his tactics, but that his ability to see the board clearly and understand the enemy in full is genuinely in his mind distinct from the other people who would claim to have common. purpose with him. That's always been what's interesting about Cassian, even going back to Rogue

one, right? Like, that's always been present in the character of this is, Ben, I think you opened your first recap with like, I'm paraphrasing, but like, he's a good guy, but he's not a good guy, right? Like, that's always been at the heart of this slice of the canon. And that's what, yeah, that's what's so compelling and distinct about it. I think it's good to consider how often, again, this archetype of a killmonger type character we so easily see. slot into good ideas, bad approach, when the answer is much more complicated than that. And it's hard for someone inside of a rebellion to see where that line is and how far is too far and all of that.

So I think, again, we all basically agree that we're supposed to be existing in a kind of uncomfortable gray, which is a cool place to be in Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, like, Ben, similarly, you've been saying about Ma. Because like Mon is there as a counterweight, right, as well. But a couple weeks in a row now, one of the things you've been saying about Mon, who in some ways is a voice of like, okay, well, what is directly to Lutham, but also maybe like unlocking that for certain, certain viewers, like, well, what is too far?

I am uncomfortable with this. You're telling me that this is the thing that's necessary. You're telling me I always should have understood that. And we can recognize the limitations of that approach, even if it's like a morally comfortable place to be, right? Because a couple of bots in a row, you're like, that's not getting it done. So, yeah, I think that the fact that all of that is so actively in the text of the show, but then even outside of the active parts or within them, we have the room to, like, really interrogate

that and ask ourselves those questions and think about that is kind of amazing. Just like really culturally, societally, the political science of it, philosophically. What an amazing thing to be able to, like, talk about. and think about inside of 50 minutes of Disney plus programming? Like, that's awesome. Right. I think the thing that makes you kind of queasy about Luthan is that he is actively nudging the oppression along in order to cleanse things.

We hear about those Aldani, the citizens of Aldani who are now being tormented and he's like, that was the whole point. Well, yeah, that's the thing. In my writing about Andor this week, I think I described the raid as morally murky and someone push back about the raid being morally murky. And I would agree, of course, that it's not morally murky to steal some credits from the empire. But I think in the sense that that was really a faint that the main mission here is actually the reprisals, the crackdowns that we see that come from this. I mean, the 80 million credits, that's nice too. But really, this is furthering the larger goal

of actively making the galaxy worse in some way in the short term in order to bring about this long-term healing, right? Which is, that's the thing that makes you kind of uncomfortable. I mean, again, justified, I think, knowing what we know. But really, that's very different from once we get to the original trilogy. And that rolls around. And by that point, the oppression has already happened and the rebellion has been bred. And the fist has clenched and the choking that's referenced. It's not something you can ignore anymore. Most people seem to be on the same page about the empire being bad. At this point, I think we're between sort of the genesis of the empire and the full-on death star blowing up planets. And so some factions are thinking, maybe we can still

pursue a diplomatic solution here. Maybe there's a way out of this, right? Maybe we can de-escalate, whereas Luther and Saw, I think they have the clarity to know that that's not really an option, but it's not entirely unreasonable knowing what they know, maybe not knowing that Darsidius is a a Sith Lord, et cetera, that they don't know that the Death Star is being built necessarily at this point. We have more information than a lot of these characters do. And so for them to make what some of them perceived to be the first move, at least when it comes to militarily striking in a sense, I mean, that's a big break from what they've

been doing to this point. So I think that's the only thing that makes it morally murky or at least kind of causes us to have these conversations. I have a complicated factor on that. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. We had another email that I was going to read later, but I think it should be read now. And it has to do with some of the other things

we were talking about last week about the reprisal on the quote-unquote innocent Aldani or what happens to Cassian's father when he's trying to break up, when he's trying to create peace and gets hung for his troubles anyway, right? So we got this email from Bridget, who says,

it's so important to think about how we discuss the empire's oppression and use language like quote unquote deserve when describing their actions. No one deserves what the empire is doing. Clem died while attempting to calm people, but if he hadn't been in the street, it would still have been a tragedy. There are no legitimate targets of imperial force. Well, we might bristle at Luthin counting on the empire tightening its grip and causing pain to ordinary people. He's doing it with the understanding that they are already doing so, but enough people can convince themselves it doesn't affect them that they keep living a life without worry. Luther understands his enemy and acts accordingly, but the empire chooses to react this way.

So like, for me, sitting in the comfort of my home here in Oakland, California, I'm like, those innocent Aldonis, what did they do? It's like sucks that they're swept up in all of this. But at the same time, you're like, well, but what did anyone do to deserve nothing, right? And so how, in a rebellion, again, I've never had to fight a rebellion, but inside a rebellion, How much do you delineate between those two things and how much do you see it as all part of this common thrust forward towards freedom, you know? Again, I'm not a political scientist, but.

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of complicated because with Aldani, yeah, you hear on the news report that 130 something Aldani were taken into custody wrongfully accused for this action, but that culture has already been devastated. They've already been, you know, herded out of the sacred value and into this specially designated zone. And then you see sort of the just insidious way that the empire is disassembling that culture, right, not by outright killing them necessarily, but just trying to sway them from their ways and just trying to break down their resolve all of these, you know, thousand little

cuts instead of actually cutting off heads, that kind of thing. So they've already been very much the targets and the subjects of what the empire is doing. And obviously, we know that the empire has bigger plans, whatever they may be, for Aldani at that point, that they're planning to build up there. So they already have become a casualty in a very real way. But we see through the impacts on the characters and just everyone across this galaxy that a lot of people are being swept up on this. You know, Cassian is getting imprisoned because he was taken a stroll. and we know Cassian and we know he's done other things that the empire would love to imprison him for. But lots of other people are just walking around minding their own business and presumably are ending up in the same predicament that he finds himself in.

And again, it's a direct result. You know, Bix being tortured, Cassian being sentenced, et cetera. All of this comes about because of these crackdowns because of this raid, which... But again, you could argue that in this episode about like the center so much on a prison, you could argue that No matter what, no one deserves to be in a floating prison with an electric-clad war. It doesn't matter if you, you know, if you broke some kind of actual serious law, the tactics that the empire is using to punish to exploit people. It's cruel and unusual regardless. Yeah. It does, you know, deserve doesn't have any, a lot to do with it in that case.

So, yeah, it's interesting. All right. Sorry, I don't know if I made this all a little bit more serious and tense than it needed to be on a Friday morning. but anything else you want to say about Sa? No, this is great. I think this mirrored Sa' and Luthan's conversation. This is what happens anytime Saa comes into Star Wars, right? Yeah. You know, things get tense.

Provocative. Yeah, you know, you have to interrogate everyone's actions. So this is perfect. I just think that Luton's saying, anarchy is a seductive concept, a bit of a luxury. I'd argue to a man who is hiding in cold caves, begging for spare parts was like an all-time.

trading of barbs between these two characters. This was really like riveting television. Unbelievable. Unreal right. Yep. Thank you, Ben, for your expertise as always as ever in your insights and calling Dave Faloni, Star Wars Daddy Faloni. Love that for us.

Yeah. Gilroy can be my granddaddy, Star Wars Granddaddy, I guess. Anyway, thanks as always. Save the rebellion. Save the dream. Save the rebellion. Save the dream. Love it.

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as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing. to protected secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dunton Ranch starring Colehauser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. All right, let's go now to my new favorite fascist power couple.

Cyril and Dietra. All right, so let's start first with, we're on the job with our... Yes. Palmyra, right? Oh yeah, Cyril. So you want to talk about last week you cited severance beautifully as the sort of inspo for where Cyril is. And I could not, I mean, this could not have been severanceier.

Yeah, I got to look at the screens this week. Yeah, yeah. Did you feel like, is there anything about the screens that you want to talk about or anything else about that set up? It was just, it was interesting because like, you know, when you think of severance and the screens there, of course, we're like, well, what exactly. So much of the season, we were all theorizing, like, what exactly were they doing? Like, what did it all mean? And so here inside of this, like, the Bureau of Standards and also this fuel-specific division, it's like, yeah, what exactly is Cyril doing, but also the fact that he doesn't care at all?

And, like, it almost looks like he was playing, like, fuel Tetris to me, you know? Like, he's just clearly going through the motions with his little, like, mouse scroll ball to try to pass the time until he, can file another falsified report to try to get on the radar about the pursuit of Cassian and work his way back in front of someone in a position of power inside of the empire, which is what he actually managed to do. And in a way, it doesn't matter. And similarly, I mean, there's all these theories. We're going to get, of course, to like the whole Cassian in prison storyline eventually.

But, like, there's a lot of theories about, like, oh, what are they building? And I almost hope we never find out because, like, I think it, it. maybe feels even more upsetting. Like, oh, you know, okay, are they building pieces of the Death Star? Maybe probably, possibly. But, like, isn't it just sort of, like, even more poignant if we never find out

what these fucking widgets are for? And similarly to Cyril's code, like, it just doesn't matter. Yeah, you're just inside of the machine. The machine, yeah. And have a genuine, like, no awareness of what you are being forced to help or helping to unleash on the galaxy and like the vastness and the scope,

even just the, you know, we've talked a lot already about like the visuals of the show and the set design. Like the vastness of that space that serial is existing inside of and to know that that's one division of one and one and one. And then, of course, we get inside of the prison. the prison factory, similarly, you're at this many people, at this many tables, in this many rooms, on this many floors. Like, the scope of and sprawl of this horrific, oppressive machine was inescapable inside of this episode. And it was like one of my, one of my favorite things about the episode. And one of the, you know, Lundberg wrote in his piece this week wonderfully about every aspect of the episode.

but he, like, he identified this in frame position. This is the most Andori of the Andorian of the Andor episode so far. And I really think that that is like at the heart of it. Not only how much attention there is to the specifics of what this looks like tied in with what you're saying, that kind of inability to actually grasp the nature of something and that that's like, that's the inherent horrifying thing about it. Like the number of, there are other examples and to your question of like, what is that thing four maybe.

I think with the death star part of it, like it would be certainly very poetic and dramatically devastating if Cassian and Melchie are helping to build the thing that eventually kills them on Scariff. But I agree with you that ultimately it's irrelevant if it's parts of a Thai fighter,

if it's part of an ad ad. I will say I was like, I've built a Lego ad ad and this looks familiar to me. But parts of a death star or parts of the very prison that they're standing in. Right. Like any number of things,

it's still part of that empire sprawl and that empire machine and that fist that Luther talks about tightening around the entire world. Like, what a terrible, terrible thing to not even be able to see where that's going to go. And that's why a character, I think, like, Cyril is so interesting because, like, even someone who, like, ardently desires

to be part of this, like, fascistic New World Order, is trapped in the machine, is trapped in this dredgery, you know. We get this ISB meeting where Deidre is like essentially asking for more money to tighten her own fist. Looked like my guy Wolf Yilaran needed an espresso. Relatable, right?

Or maybe some... Absolutely. Greeny, greeny ones, possibly. And then Cassians, we get the hollow mugshot of Cassian And I love that as like a reminder to us as Cassian gets processed into this prison system that he has been in prison before, right? There's a reason his mugshot exists because this is not his first time. It's a more probably more extreme example of what he experienced when he was younger.

But that idea of being trapped again after getting out is a different experience from being in for the first time ever, you know? And then we get this introduction of the term Axis, which is what DeJ is essentially using to describe Luthin. And then like every person who has watched any of the extended Star Wars is like, Axis, Fulcrum, what's going on here? Mal, do you want to do like a little mini download on Fulcrum and what that word means inside the rebellion? Yeah, so Fulcrum is an alias, a code name that a number of different. rebel agents use over the course of the Star Wars canon, most famously, certainly Osoka, who operates as fulcrum for quite a while. And in the beginning stretches of rebels, fulcrum is present in the story. And we don't realize at first that it is Asoka. And then the

reveal is one of the great delights of rebels. Even though we're saying, like, everything is on the table to talk about for future stuff. There's another character who I won't say uses it because it's that that character's arc is really something to experience firsthand if you haven't. But Cassian is another character who operates as as fulcrum eventually. So this is a moniker that is applied to anybody who is working in a way where they need to be referred to on radio transmissions, et cetera, to other members of a given rebel cell who don't, who shouldn't know their actual identity because there's some measure of safeguarding there. So, Yeah, the second we heard Axis, it's like, okay, fulcrum, but

Folkrum well predates this in terms of the introduction of fulcrum into the canon. This is something that Bail and Asoka workshop together way back when in the Asoka novel. So I don't think that it will play out where Luthan or somebody else learns that they're referring to him as Axis. And then they say, hey, we've got an idea. Let's start doing this and introduce Folkrum because Folkrum is already active. at this point, but still it's meant to make us think of that for sure. But yeah, but I do like the idea of both of these words, which mean like sort of different but similar things about, you know, a point that things are rotating around or resting on

or reliant on and all that sort of stuff and balancing on. I like that. And, you know, especially as, you know, we were just talking about Saw and Luton and Mon and sort of the spectrum, if Luton is more of a fulcrum point there rather than like, you know, an extreme point, I think that's interesting to think about. That's certainly not necessarily what Deirdre is talking about. Okay, so let's talk about Cyril and this interrogation scene. I've already texted you about this, so this is not going to come as a shock to you,

but I felt vibes, like hardcore vibes. I mean, these are both reprehensible people that I don't like, but like a vibe. And there's like a bad romance vibe for me. And I love her sneer, which she, you know, uses liberally in this scene is one of my favorite things. But it still felt like there was something there. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com, if you agree or disagree with me. What did you think? Were you getting vibes now?

Rubin? When Cyril is calling after Miro, I was a good deputy inspector. I was very good. It was hard not to think about it, of course. This is House of R after all. That sounds like courtship to me. What do you think these two would consider, like, their ideal date night? What's a good time for Miro and Cyril?

We talk in like a dry hand job, no, no moisturizer of any sort in the copy. Whilst scrubbing through. security footage to try to find Cassie Nandor. Yeah, I mean, Miro uses drugs just so she could do more work, right? So I think Cyril would be like, wow, aspirational. I've inspired. Exactly. This is his dream girl is what I'm pretty sure is happening here.

He's like, he's like, the bun is so tight. This could not be hotter. That is the vibes that I'm getting from this. We got an email. I'm not going to read that email. We got an email that contains the phrase, little flesh lightsaber. And Mallory and I have decided that that is, that was in reference to Cassium, but we have decided that is definitely House of Our Canon. How do we know it's, how do we know it's little, Joe?

It's a great point. It's a great point. Big lightsaber energy. Big saber energy, for sure. We did get a, I will read this next email and fall. This came from someone. And I thought it was a really interesting perspective on like Cyril and his role in this larger machine, right? because, so Nicole points out, only posh private school British people can be officers of the empire or sit in the Senate, the humanoid elite of Corrassant.

This was really proven in this recent episode. I know a lot of folks were thinking slash hoping that Cyril Carn might join the ISB, but I kind of figured he wouldn't be allowed to reach that high. Karn isn't of the right background, education, or pedigree. He's NOCD, not our class, dear. This is why he tailors his clothing in an attempt to be like the imperial officers he admires and why his mother mocks him for it. She knows he can't rise any higher than he has, and she knows where she stands in this system. Deidre and the other imperials probably treat him with such contempt because they see him

trying to rise above his station and his demeanor and behavior. That's an insult to them that even considers himself on their level. How dare he a cog in the empire's wheel is the best he should aspire to? I would love to see this turn him to the rebellion because people should be able to hope to have a better life, even in evil imperial life, I guess. Nicole also points out that inside the ISB, that she finds it pretty interesting that the woman being Deidre

and the black man being Bloven with Jewish name in the ISB are usually the only ones of quote unquote their kind in the room and have to work harder to prove themselves and are pitted against each other. Meanwhile, the white guys in the room are messing up and good old khyburn handwaves it after shaming them some. Must be nice to be a posh British white dude at the ISB. Meanwhile, it seems like the Scots, one of the first colonized,

are still doing the dirty work and the crappy contracting jobs for the empire. Everyone else is just grist for the mill. So I love that idea because I wanted to talk to you really briefly about this idea of, because it is no accident that we constantly see what Cyril's mom's kitchen looks like, or we had to follow him as he took the elevator down. down down to that apartment. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit at what you thought about this idea of interclass struggle

within a Star Wars story where you feel like we've seen it before or does this feel like somewhat new to you in some respect? So I... So a couple things. One, like even inside of this episode and, you know, I know we were going to talk about this later, but I'll just quickly mention it here.

very intentional that we're cutting between the prison and this high society, high class uh, monmouthma party, which is in theory a political event to lack up votes, but there's, they're talking about the view. Indulgence everywhere with the drinks and exactly the conversation about the view. And this reminder that on Curisandt,

if you have wealth, if you have status, if you have power, that you have a perch. You are elevated above everybody else. If you don't have those things, you descend further and further and further down into the darkness, into the crowds. And that contrast was, I think, really, really palpable in this episode.

Inside of the empire itself, I mentioned this last week, but I think that Thrawn has always been one of the more interesting characters for unlocking this idea. Certainly this is

present in rebels but I think really, really comes to light in the Thrawn novels which I would encourage anybody who's considering getting into Star Wars

reading or checking out some of the novels and more of the text to check out the new novels, the Chisdha the prequel run and the three Thron novels.

Just excellent, but also if you're interested in learning more about the inner workings of the empire, I cannot recommend them highly enough. And, you know, this idea that Thrawn is will be, you know, we'll be getting Throne in the live action very soon here. I can't wait. Thorn's going to be, I think,

one of the most central and important figures in the next few years of Star Wars. Thrawn is, it's not just a smart and accomplished. and capable member of the empire. Throne is unrivaled, is able to see things. I was actually also thinking about this a few minutes ago

when you're mentioning, are these pieces for the death stars, for the death star? Who knows, does it matter? Thrawn is able to identify, there's a whole dunium plot, like the empire taking, destroying planets, mining planets, for material stripping them of the very heart and essence of them. What is it for? the construction of the empire, the specific things that go into that is like a secret even from the people inside of the empire.

So Thron is able to figure that out and piece that together. That's just one of many, many, many examples of the things that Thron is able to see and deduce that other people aren't even thinking to inquire about. But constantly, constantly cast as an outsider, somebody who is needing to work extra hard, not just to move up to the ladder, but to earn a, any level of decorum decency and respect from his fellows in the empire because they are racist and species and classes and consider him beneath their, in their minds, inherent right to exist and excel. So I definitely think that's present across the empire. And I think that Thron is, if for anyone listening who's maybe interested in seeing how that can play out, he'd be a great character to explore that. Yeah. He's a, he's a, it's a, it's a, Chis, right? That's his...

Yeah, so he's got this blue skin for people don't know. Blue skin, red eyes. Yeah. But voiced by Lars Mikkelson. And so, like, constantly, like, with that, like, very plummy, upper crust, sneery accent, you know what I mean? So, like, seems like he should fit in a treat, but he's got that blue skin. Like, it's not. I was thinking about a little bit about that, like, thinking about going down, down, down levels,

like the Martez Sisters, I thought was, like, maybe an interesting example of that in the animated series. And then canto bite, not my favorite part of The Last Jedi, but, like, definitely Ryan was trying to, like, you know, Ryan Johnson was definitely trying to engage with that broom boy, obviously, the democratization of, you know, Ray, nobody from nowhere. Like, you know, Ryan was really trying to do this democratization thing. But, like, usually, or I will say in original trilogy or prequel trilogy, you get characters like Luke and Anakin who are, yeah, like farm boys or children of slaves and whatever, but they are very special. you know, shiny Jedi boys. And so it's like sort of, it doesn't, that they come from a farm or that they come from like a desert planet. It doesn't, it's not an impediment in terms of like their jeddiness.

That makes sense. And the Skywalker, Middichlorian Jesus. Yep. Medi-Clorian Jesus himself. In terms of the question of like Cyril's a turn, a face turn, I'm not going to use that term incorrectly ever again. a face turn for Cyril Karn. We got an email from Emily

comparing Cyril to Javert from Le Miz. I was thinking of like Ahab and Moby Dick. There was some imagery that reminded me also of Colin Farrell's character, Minority Report. But my favorite comp that I've seen is like, is Cyril Karn going to be like a Zucco character?

Zuko from Avatar, The Last Yarbender, who is just a beloved fan favorite character who does make one of the best most satisfying face turns of all time. So can you see Cyril saying, that's rough, buddy. That's rough buddy. That's rough, buddy. That's rough, buddy.

I love that moment so much. Is that something as interesting to you? Do you think, like, is that something you would want, or is it more interesting to see him fall, like, further and further into, you know, the, the, the, the, the, world of Empire. I will say that at this point, I am not feeling invested in a Cyril redemption arc. I think that he is like an embodiment of the really like noxious way that this kind of fascistic sprawl can root itself inside of somebody. And, like, to hear him say,

service to the empire, you just said it, can one ever be too aggressive and preserving order? Yeah. Like, it's not great. That's just an embodiment of Nazism. So I don't,

I don't know that we've, we're eight episodes in already. Like, I don't know if we've gotten even a glimmer. It's two seasons, you know, and Zucco is, like, you know, his turn is so slow that, you know, it's very satisfying in that way. I think at this point I'm on the team of really looking forward to Cyril getting his come-upance, more so than wondering if he'll have a redemption arc.

But what about you? I think that's probably, I mean, what I think might be a play here is Tony Gilroy's approach to these villains, which we talked about last week in the context of Mero, where we put her on the back foot in the workplace, whereas, like, a woman who is right and surrounded by men who are telling her she's wrong, we're inclined to root for her until we get to this episode and we're like, oh, no. And, like, we didn't start, I mean, not that I was ever yay, ISB member at all, but there's just a part of her character arc where you're just sort of like, she's right, listen to her, she's right.

And then you're like, oh, no, oh, no, they empowered her. Fuck. You know. It was Cyril. I think, like, living with his mom, like those scenes, like, you know, the office drudgery, the severance fives, all that sort of stuff is putting him in a position where we are, like, trying to root for him to realize that that individuality that he's constantly carving out, trying to carve out for himself, can't be found in the empire. So at this point, I agree with you. like he deserves a comeuppance, but like,

I love a character on a, like a messy journey. So I'm kind of hoping there's something a little bit more complicated at play there. I don't know. We'll see. You already talked about Mon's party,

this like, you know, thinly veiled excuse to drink space tequila with the worm in it. Squigs. We get this very fascinating Emperor Palpatine mention, you know, they're ramping up.

Do you want to see Palpatine in this show, Mallory? Oh. What a charged question inside of the Star Wars fandom. I would be okay if we did because it would make sense to me here. It would feel appropriate here. I'm also completely content to continue to engage with Palpatine in this way, mentions. And I think in some ways that's really, like, effective, this idea

that he's an inescapable specter for everybody in the story. Like that, that almost feels like the most potent way to unlock his menace. I love that from the shadows, right? Sort of thing. We should say that we found out, like a little bit before the episode dropped this week, we found out that Eddie Circus was in the show, but we didn't know who he was playing. And so we had conversations amongst us. I mean, maybe one of us.

So much snook-talk. Maybe one of us forgot that Andy's. circus voice, Snoke, that's fine, don't hold it against her. But we were like,

is he Snoke? And do we want Snoke in this show? And I will say that I'm really excited that he's not playing because it doesn't feel like Snoke belongs here.

But a scene with Palpatine, you know, maybe on the hollow so we don't have to like worry about what Ian McDermott looks like right now or something like that. Addressing the Senate,

something like that, that would feel, that would feel of a piece. The quote is, Palpatine's frustrating, yes, we agree, too easily provoked, yes, overreactive, but he says what he means. She might sound familiar to some people who live in America and have been paying attention to politics for the last six years. You also mentioned the cross cut between this party and casting in prison very intentional back-and-forth cuts. But one of Mon's associate says, the emperor's primary charges to protect us,

Is it not? And that's what PORD legislation will do. And it rubs us so raw to have that moment when they're like cozily ensconced in their high rise looking at their view. And then we see who the PORD legislation is impacting. We have the prisoners around Cassian talking about it. Devastated to find out that like everyone in the outside is not talking about the fact that their sentences may be doubled, tripled, quadruplementation. or whatever. I thought that was just incredibly.

And again, like, Mon is fighting this world order, but she still is enjoying the comforts of this world. What do you think, like, what do you think of that balance

that they're showing us? I was, first of all, because you mentioned it, that scene where back in their block, all of the inmates are,

asking Cassie and Keith these questions. And I was so interested by the different language that they're using, whether it was described as a slaughter or the response to that of, that's not what he said. And we're seeing already like the way that this propaganda, this imperial spin is impacting the truth and the ability to even perceive it. In terms of Mon, I was thinking back to episode seven and that conversation that Mon and Tay had about life on Corrassant and the way that he said, I just can't imagine living here, Ma'an like this, Corrassant, no escape. And so on the one hand, you have the, like the show is drawing these connections between the various different cages. Limburg wrote last week about how the apartment is even set up where we're reviewing that

party scene through... Yeah, through lattices. The lattice work. And there's always this sense of confinement, right? And how your specific circumstances restrain you. But when it is contrasted and juxtaposed with that, the literal imprisonment, this labor camp, it's just like, again, we're thinking inside of Star Wars about the realities of political oppression and political dynamics in like a kind of incredible.

an elevated way. And so literal champagne problems. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like Mon is definitely a character who is working for the rebellion. That is true. It is also true that that's happening in Corsont skyscrapers at parties with bankers and money as the weapon at your disposal.

So the different the different battlefields that a specific. fight is unfolding on very, very, very central in this show. And I thought that the editing in this episode of particular, like really, really, really presented that effectively. Yeah, brilliant. What did you think about Perrin in this, in this, in all of these scenes? Well, the fact that we find out that he was like the Academy Firebrand back in the day. Yeah. And both like the way that Mon said that, but also the way that he responded to that, like, idea of, you know, whether Tave remembered him but 15, like, oh, let's not. And then the way that when Perrin is leaving their little trio and says, good luck feeding

the galaxy. I'm off to feed myself. Chase says charity begins in the home. And Perrin turns around like, fuck you. Like that was, that's just a delicious dynamic. Oh, yeah. Well, like, Mon hates him. He, if he can be bothered, I think, kind of hates her, right?

But also, I think doesn't want to be. cuckolded and like the idea that like this this this arrangement that she set up with tay where he is constantly coming to Corrassant like they have this cover of this charity which is covering rebel activity but in like the gossipy circles of Corrassant could you not see this as like I mean latest certainly seems are you fucking my mom without question yeah why are you here all the time why are you here all the time definitely so I think parent parent on the one hand we've been talking about like all the scenes in which he's watching her and all the ways in which is like is he watching her because he's overtly directed to or is he just watching her

because you know they disagree on things and he would be quick to sell her out either way probably um but i think specifically watching her walk around the party with tay last week and then again this week it feels very much like a i don't want to fuck my wife but i don't want you to fuck my wife either sort of thing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And especially, yes, definitely. And especially like not only the watchful eyes and the side glances, but like even just Mon learning from Perrin that Tay had left. I was like, okay, I'm nervous about three different people here. I'm nervous about Leda and what is going on here. I'm nervous about Perrin and whether he is going to turn and become an active impediment for Mon instead of just a passive impediment for for

for Mon. And I'm worried about Tay because he bounced after hearing the specific. number, this specific amount of money that she needed, which made me think, like, okay, does he have some intel now that he's going to, is there a turn coming there? Was that actually a trust that she was wise to forge? But also, why does Perrin know that he left? Maybe Perrin's the one responsible for him leaving. So we have a lot to learn there still about what exactly is going on, but it certainly feels like a betrayal of some sort is coming.

And again, this is very juicy and fraught in a way that I think a Bo Willeman who made House of Cards, like, is a perfect sort of writer for a dynamic like this. So this, like, high tone, upper crust, power couple, what are the fissures within the family sort of thing. Yeah, that, uh, that line, it was also in the window sequence when they were talking about the view. But when Mon said, that's always the way, isn't it? One forgets to savor the familiar.

Like, that could have been in scenes from a marriage. Yeah. What an incredible line in a moment. Dripping. Mon's daughter. We already mentioned this last week when we talked about it and we're like, I'm concerned. We're tracking this dynamic. Like what she keeps popping up in a way that it feels like, sort of like the Gorman mentions, like I feel like this is going to going somewhere very purposeful.

We got an email from Swati who wrote, Mom Matha's daughter, Leda, has been very nervous and jumpy in both party scenes. Why do you think that is? I feel like maybe she's secretly a rebel and hiding it from her parents. In the book, Leah, Cullen, Princess of Alderon, which takes place a couple years from now, Ma'amatha makes a very moving speech about why Leia should join the rebellion, and it would be a nice connection if that was inspired by her own daughter. Love this. Yeah. That would be fun.

Yeah. The name is so close to Leia, you know. And we also have Clea, like, Lita, Clea and Leia, like, all of that's in the mix. But, yeah, Secret Rebel. And, like, and it's, and we were talking about the cost for Mon of this disguise, this sort of, like, silly centrist senator disguise, you know, that she has to adopt here. And it is a cost, like, that her rebel daughter will think her mom is ridiculous and ineffectual. And because she can't know the truth about her, something like that, you know?

Oh, I really like this because I think there's been a lot of theorizing and speculating about whether Leda could turn on her mother in some way. This is actually a much more interesting path forward to me. I really like this. Like, even something like the little squigs exchange, like, it's disgusting. That's Laida's read. It tastes that's the point. Maybe that's just like a youthful, like, why do you guys do this thing?

Why do you like this thing? But maybe that's a larger indictment of excess. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I could also see her, like, easily turning on her mom. They've done so much to play up the parent. and later, you know, the two of us against mom sort of thing. So, yeah.

Just like to say, if everybody thinks that Mon and Tay are fucking already, maybe they just should. Just going to throw that out there. How do you know the flesh lightsaber's little? Only one way to find out, right? What better cover? What better cover for your conspiracy than a juicy affair? We're not trying to take that Palpatine. We're just having an extramarital affair.

I mean, what could be better? Chandrillin love. All right. Before we go to prison, we're going to go to Farix. To check in with Marva. Boy, this was hard-roaching. Is having trouble breathing, has sustained injuries.

Trying to do some cool-ass rebel shit, genuinely. And I love the way that... Trying to open the Rick's floodgate to let the rebellion. enter in secret and take down the empire. What I love about Bix is that Bix is like, I can't believe she's doing this. But in the head, she doesn't sound like condescending when she's talking about Marva. She's just sort of like, Marva's serious about this.

She is in it to win it. Specifically the way that Bix said to Brasso, she's a rebel. Like there was a real note of not only affection, but I think like admiration there was so sweet. the only thing that unmatched it that topped it on the sweetness scale was the way that my sweet B said she has pain in her knee Papa Speaking of B

we got we got so many emails last week and so many emails this week that I can no longer ignore it this very this very cherished theory that B who is on his last can't hold a charge not doing super well

that perhaps Cassian will do for B what Lando did for his beloved droid Lando put the droid in the ship will Cassian put B inside of K2SO I will say

I don't think their personalities match so it's not just the voice thing it's not just that like one is voiced by Alan Tiddick and the other isn't it's just like they don't have the same personality at all so I have trouble believing this theory, even though it's lovely, a lovely thought. What do you think, Mallory?

Let me know if you ever want to carve out some time to talk about how Lando uploading L3's consciousness to the Millennium Falcon is like absolutely horrific when L3's entire thing was droid rights, let me be free. And now L3 is confined to one ship for eternity. Not only that, but Han Solo stole Lando's ship and his girlfriend at the same time. The love of his life and his ship. B and K2SO. Okay.

So, boy, I don't like to think about this because it's upsetting to me. I don't like to think about the end for B. It's just too much. But I like the idea of preserving B's essence and the idea that B's spirit, B's identity, B's sense of self, B's relationship with Cassian, all of that exists. outside of his precious little red body. So preserving that, Cassian finding a way to keep be alive in another casing is lovely and fills me with joy, even though it's very upsetting to think about being needing that.

But yeah, I agree. I think that not only do they not quite match other than the fact that they have these really formidable bonds with Cassian, I think it also, like, would slightly undercut. And again, I could keep an open mind here. Maybe I could be swayed. I think you would kind of undercut K2SO's reprogramming and awakening. I agree. As like, yeah, the rejection of that imperial programming in a way to forge his own personality.

Love K2SO. Love B. Would love for both of them to live forever. Oh, except, never mind. That's our subject. Okay. That was not intentional. Since Marva is injured, not doing well, this prompts Bix to go send a message.

And then we get this really fascinating debate between Luth and and Claya about the message. And the big question you had last week was when Claya goes to Val and is like, kill Cassian. Like when she does that, is that with Luthan's blessing. I confess on the other side of this conversation, I'm still not sure I know the answer to it. Do you feel like this definitively says one way or another what Luton is thinking about Cassian? It definitely clarified for me that Luton is also very invested in finding Cassian.

Right. What he wants to do with him, I think there's still some room for interpretation. You know, he did say, he did say here, I took him on the Fondor, was I insane? Like, he's clearly very destabilized by the idea that Cassian knows a lot about him, could trace back to him, could jeopardize their particular cell, this careful facade that they have crafted for their operation and their lives. So I think here it did feel to me like he views Cassian as a threat. But not necessarily that he was at the week.

A hundred percent must eliminate him point that Cleo was. maybe there's still a way that he could try to bring him into the fold. It was the way he said it's Andor. Like before he says knowing he's out there, knowing me, not knowing what he knows, it's the way he said it's Andor just made him sound like a valuable asset. Again, this was my question last week. Like how he knows so much about Andor before he recruits him. He's been like stocking him in some way or another.

And so I don't know. I just sort of, I still have questions, I guess. I'm not convinced one might not know there. Speaking of Vell, Bell and Sinta are in Ferrix. Really fascinating exchange. Again, we get, just like we found out that Perrin was, I guess, the firebrainer of the Academy, find out that Vell, a rich girl running away from her family. There's a lot of Vell theories floating around what that could mean.

What does that mean to you, Mallory, do you have any thoughts or feelings or theories? I mean, she doesn't need to be connected to anyone. And it could simply be Sinta's like, again, talking about that spectrum of rebellion, Sintas coming from a place where she lost her whole family we found out. Like, that's her inspiration. And she's like, are you just to Vell, are you just cosplaying as a rebel because you're bored? You know, we saw what Vell looks like when she cleaned up on Corrassant, right? So are you just like, are you just doing this, you know, to because you think you believe in something,

but how much do you actually, do I have a real reason to. believe in it. So is that when that line is there? Or are we meant to be thinking about, like, who Bell could be connected to? Is it Mon? Is it Luthin? Like, what do you, what do you think? Yeah. I love to see that's cold even for you. Response for Bell. This, just really feeling like we are fully inside of their relationship and their dynamic with each other in this beautiful little sequence and beautiful little conversation at the coffee shop. Yeah. So I had been wondering across prior episodes if Vell might be Luthan's daughter, given the specific nature of their fight, the way that they were talking to each other on Aldani, there was just a level of familiarity there that felt like more than a working relationship.

Yeah. This weirdly swung me away from that. Okay. Because if the idea is that she's running away from her family, why would she be working with Luton? With Lutin. That said, I can work myself right back to the theory because Sinta, our understanding at least, was that when Vell and Cassie and are making their walk back to the camp,

it's like nobody else knows about him. You never mention him again. Right. So maybe from Sinta's perspective, there's a complete separation between Vell and her family, and maybe that's not actually true. So I don't know where I am on the Vell Lutham part of it. I do feel sure that Vell will connect to a character in the story who we know, though,

at some point that seems like very likely. But maybe not. Maybe it's just, yeah, leaving wealth and high society behind. How do you feel with the Mon theory that's going around that she's connected to Mon in some way? I think it would be one too many, like, new people around Mon Mothamah to introduce into the story. who we had no awareness existed elsewhere in the canon, given how long Mont Mathema has been in the canon. What do you think?

Yeah, I don't know. I liked the Lutheran theory, but you make a good point about, like, how, yeah, I don't know. I think that conversation between Luther and Bell was so rich, that first conversation. There was so much under the surface there. But I also think that that's true of, like, almost any conversation we see in any character in Andor who's known another character for a

significant period of time, there's all these like, we're just choking on layers of subtext of their relationship. So, yeah. I do think, and again, this kind of works either way. It works if there does wind up being a more direct and personal tie between Luther Neville. It works if it's just two sets of people who are paired closely and working closely together inside of a rebellion who were clearly not on the same page, but there were a lot of parallels in the argument, a debate that Luton and Clea have in this episode. And then the debate that Vell and Sinta have in this episode, they're actually back to back. We're in the Sinta Vell exchange and then we go right into the, and you're slipping. Claya charge and Luton saying, I'm thinking,

Clay is saying, I'm thinking clearly and you're not. Like, that's very much the same energy that Sinta is bringing to Vell, like, this is a fight to the death, Vell. That just feels like a very similar note across these conversations. I told you up front, the struggle will always come first. We take what's left. I'm a mirror, Val, you love me because I show you what you need to see. That line is wild, and I actually don't even fully have my arms around it yet. I'm a mirror, like, you love me because I show you what you need to see.

Like, that is a fascinating line. But yeah, so Val, like, it all kicks off because Vell basically says, like, haven't we been apart long enough, right? Like, don't we deserve our corner of happiness in all of this, like, some time together? And Cinta's like, my priorities and your priorities are not the same. And my priority is the rebellion against, above all else. You know what I mean? So, yeah. And so I think that's like a really interesting engagement.

Again, this show is so good. but like to put personal stakes on like you know so here we have two rebels sure they're from different backgrounds we have two rebels who we met them mon al-dani and now they're continuing into this next plot but now we put personal stakes on their dynamic there's a love relationship here that's in the middle of all this or mon trying to like operate her whole thing from inside the civil war that's within her own family this constant like fractures within relationships within like the human heart, as we like to talk about, you know, and or Marva. Like this constant, you know, love connections, love of all different varieties,

these separations cost of a rebellion, right? Yeah, absolutely. Or the crushing impact of the empire. So I think the, I think Gilroy and his writers are constantly looking for how can we sink this sort of political philosophical context into what Ben was talking about, like, right? Real human heart stakes. Absolutely. Or alien heart stakes.

I'm not trying to be humanist in the world of Star Wars, right? Sintel also seems to have her eye on Brasso, like, right? She's like sort of... Well, they indicate that they don't, they're not sure who he is, but they're clearly watching Marva. Yeah. Marva's home. And Bix.

And Bix. Yeah, trying to find Cassian. trying to find a connection with Cassian. Interesting cut back and forth shots between like Sinta being like, who is this guy? Like what is, you know, sort of thing. So I was almost wondering like if she was going to honeypot him and that was, that's like, that's just me extrapolating out. Anyway.

All right. Last but not least, of course, on Farrix. Dieter Rai. This is what we were dreading, right? Again, this is very smart that there's like a collision of characters, right? Bell and Sinta are on Farragut. Dider's on Ferrix. Miro's here, and now she has fix.

And this is, again, that moment that Tony Giller was talking about where you're just sort of like, well, if there was any tiny part of me that was rooting for her to make her way up the ladder, I no longer feel that way because I read this really interesting article about, and I'm so sorry, I cannot say it accurately. But they were talking about, like, when didger's, the character when she was disempowered, we had nothing to fear from her really because she was hamstrung by her own like corporate, you know, like the, the fascistic ladder that she's climbing. Now she's empowered and now we're scared of her. And I thought that was, that was really smart.

Anything you want to say about Bix and the clutches here? A couple things. I think, so three quick things. one, when Bix goes to send the message to Luthen and Clea, to Luton, in the first place, the one that they end up shutting down, not responding to, HAC didn't want Bix to do this, was wary. It's been off a while. And that's obviously going to be like a very heart-wrenching thing for Bix to have to carry. the moment where Bix realizes

that he has been detained, there's this amassing this collection of Farwick citizens in front of his shop. We see his son calling for him, fighting for him. It's horrific. And we hear the banging again. We hear the sound again.

Rhythmic. Yes. That Marva identified as the sound of a reckoning in episode three. And I thought that that was like really important because in the conversation in episode seven between Bix and Andor, he was like stunned to learn that the people of Farrex might be the ones to turn him in. And she's like, look around you. You know, look at everything that happened here after that. But they're still banging on those chimes and anything that they can find to make that sound and keep that disruption going. Marva is still opening the floodgings. the Ricks floodgate to try to figure out if there's an active tunnel

to bring in the rebellion. So what Bix was expressing to Cassian was a real thing that people were feeling. Look what you brought down upon us. But it doesn't mean

they've given up. It doesn't mean they've given up at all. And then for Bix to be brought in for this torment, for this torture, and that really

like awful, evil glimpse we got in the moment before she entered the room. Do you want me to take him out of here? No, keep him so that she can see. Miro deciding that she wanted to make sure Bix saw this.

And then pretending like, how could you do it? Like the sinister. That was almost even more. Like that's bad, bad to like, I wanted to see him. And then like, what are you doing? Get him like the, yeah, the theater of it. Utterly, utterly sinister. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. To be clear, I was never like rooting for her. I was never like girl boss your way all the way up the ladder babe, but like, you know, there's a difference. There's a big fan of that particular platform. There's a difference. There's a difference, right? And I think to your point where Bix sees the cost of what she did, right, what I love in terms of the world building of this, of Farrex as a place, is that.

that we meet that father and son right at the beginning of the series. And it was so funny. I remember talking to Chris Ryan about this before we were covering Andor. And I was like, that was a detail I really glummed onto because it was like she shows up. And like the son is like, hey, dad, Bix is here. Right. And I was like, that was such an interesting moment to me because I was like, why does there need to be the son character there when like Bix could just walk in and like, you know, talk directly to her contact.

And so for me, I was like, this is giving texture, larger texture to this town, which I think the first three episodes do so well in Andor. But it's also laying track for this. Like, you know, it's horrible to see anyone dragged in for interrogation. Horrible still for Bix to see, you know, like this kid, you know, missing his father, you know. So. All right. We've been rattle around, but we're about to get to Narcena 5.

Here we go. And just as like meticulously as they established like Farix and Aldani, we get all the details of this world. What was your first thought when you saw? Yeah. Without question, as I'm sure it was for like 85% of the people watching it who have also watched Marvel. I was like, it's the raft. Yeah. But then also thought of NER and, you know, we've obviously recently just spent some time

at Fortress Inquisitoria, so the idea of like a water moon as this extra layer of fortification for some unsavory hall was also top of mind, certainly. It also bears a very striking resemblance to the Boiling Rock, which is this prison in Avatar The Last Airbender. There's also another, there's a couple prison arcs in Avatar the Last air bender that involve, and then also, of course, the breaking out of the red lotus that involve these very meticulously crafted prisons because you've got these benders and you've got to like create a place where they can't bend. So like put the earth benders in the middle of the water and try to keep any dirt from them

so that they can't break out or like, you know, whatever it is with the Red Lotus. And so I got some of those vibes as we like find out what the, what the, what the, the physical limitation, you know, we've electrified the floor. And thinking about how insidious that is, that someone in the empire was like, you know what will be great. Let's take their shoes and electrify the fucking floor, like the demented nature of building something like this. It's also designed in a very classic panopticon structure, panopticon being this kind of prison

structure where you've got a central spot and all the cells and all the, you know, containment centers are arranged around it. It's a philosophical sort of theoretical idea of like the prisoners don't have to be able to see the person watching them. They just have to know that at any given time, they can be observed. And it's, again, one of the more insidious ideas of a prison setup, not that there's like an uninsidious prison concept. When and or arrives here, someone says to him, breathe deep brother, this may be the last

fresh air we ever taste. And I just want to shout out, we've already done it a couple of times, but Ben Lindberg's column this week has this brilliant breakdown in the first like four paragraphs, I think, about all the times the concept of breathing, Marva's breath in this episode, she's wheezing. Like this concept of breath and breathing has come up and how that relates to the tightening of the fist of the empire that has also been a through line. You know, so people are choked for breath all over the place as the empire tightens its grasp. Anything you want to say about that?

Well, I think, again, as Ben noted, brilliantly, absent like something like a force choke. You don't need to have that element to feel that. It is embedded in the nature of life itself as the. Empire creep spreads. I thought that like even before the arrival at the prison, the transport sequence was just completely harrowing, making them take off their shoes. And then of course, we see what that is for. The way that the cuffs pull them magnetically into the arms of the chair, the way that even they are sorted by name and home planet into the, the eventual location.

And then we get there and we hear the warden say this is an imperial factory facility. You've all been assessed as labor worthy. It's a labor camp. It is a labor camp. And later when Cassian is being brought in eventually to his particular room, they're using words like delivery. Like people are not humans to the empire. This is a tool. It is a body to use for your end, not a person with agency and rights.

It's awful. Dia Luna is an incredible actor, and I've always enjoyed everything he's ever done. And I'm so glad to hear that he was at the center of this. He's been very good this season. But his bewilderment, like the panic, bewildered panic while still. Casing the joint, essentially, as he's brought in, is some of the best, like, performance I've ever seen in my life. I felt panicked with him. And especially when we see him come out of someplace like Aldani, where he is cool as a cucumber through this, like, very harrowing thing that they have to do in Aldani.

and is, you know, and is telling Nemick, like, you know, don't worry. It's going to be fine. The adrenaline will carry you through. To see him here so terrified is just incredibly affecting. Yeah. And I thought that was like, so there was an interesting melding across the episode because we feel that very much in the initial transport sequence, the initial arrival, certainly. it is inescapably present after his first shift when they are lining up the

the look, the expression on Diego Luna's face as he is standing there in line. We learn he's been fried twice in one day, but the dawning realization of this new reality. And not just for him, right, because that's part of what is happening for this character, the recognition of what this is like for every single other person who is experiencing this and is touched by it. But then you also have those Aldani-esque,

like classic Cassian moments of keen observation. We see when he is being moved through into his eventual room, he's looking at those things in the cubbyhole. Casing the joint. Yeah, he is paying attention to the fact that the guards are not on the same page when they're communicating over the intercom. One of the partners is late.

note of every single one of those variables. Later, lining up, he sees the signing through the windows across the way. He is taking note of all of these circumstances and all of these occurrences. And we can always see that playing out on his eye, but that's the thing that we've been accustomed to. And so when we see that mixed with the fear, the absolute fear, it is just such an unmooring thing. I know, I have, it's been a busy week, so I have not gotten a chance to listen to our beloved midnight boys discuss this. But I know for a fact that they discussed Shawshank Redemption and the way I know that they discussed it

is because our beloved pal Jomey is getting shit on Twitter for not having seen Shoshank Redemption. A movie I have seen conservatively won a gazillion times because Jomey's younger than us and didn't grow up when it was like on T&T every single Saturday morning and I would just watch it. I'd be like, you know what's great for me, a child, watching this prison movie.

Shawshank on a Saturday morning. Van and Steve were short. for a solid seven minutes that he was that he was joking, that he was lying to him. But he wasn't. Yeah. But I mean, you can't help but think of Andy Dufrein being, you know, brought into the prison, being like doused in lice powder and shoved into a shower

and like all, like his intake is very clearly mirrored here. Also the like he didn't do it. Again, not that that much matters, but like, you know, technically Cassian didn't do this thing. that he's here for. But I also, a friend of the pod, Ryan Erie, who does great breakdowns on Over on Screen Crush, brought up this one specific quote from Shawshank

that I wanted to talk about briefly. This, because it goes back to like Marva's conversation about finding a place in your mind that they can't reach. And then also this constant from Rogue One through the show, idea of hope. Here's where it makes the most sense. You need it so you don't forget. Forget.

Forget that there are places in the world that aren't made out of stone, that there's something inside that they can't get to that they can't touch. It's yours. I'm genuinely going to watch Shawshank Redemption this afternoon. Like, I love that movie so much. Al-timer. But yeah, that idea of the interior life and this place that not even the most punishing system can touch. That being said, as we establish where we are and there is as much attention to detail.

You mentioned the wall of boots. We can't help but draw a line between the wall of boots and the wall of gloves and ferrics. There's as much of an attention to detail of the specifics of this place as there are in the, when we went to Aldani, when we went to Ferricks, again, this idea of a very specific place. The physicality of Diego Luna and the men when they are shocked for the first time on the floor is astonishing. Like, I didn't know any human could bend that way. It was so upsetting. And it helps us understand the stakes.

So then all we have to see later is the red light on the floor and our heart is racing. because we're like, you can't do that again, right? Like, that can't happen. We got an email from my listener, Reagan, about his experience in prison and how much this, like, matches that. And I'll just, I'll read some of it, right? The way the guards welcome new inmates' cruelty and harshly, cruelly and harshly in an attempt to shake you and break you down, accurate. The way those guards would shout orders and punish you for transgressions for which you were unaware, accurate. the way that some inmates become de facto guards accurate.

I knew some men so institutionalized that they thought it was their job to keep other inmates in line. Finding small ways to buck the system, accurate, small acts of rebellion were the only way to keep sane. Seeing the inmates use hand signs to communicate across to other pods is common. I still know all the handsides I used to use. It's not gang signs, but it's not ASL either, etc. the desolation of solitude within a crowded cell block accurate. Giving Diego Luna his props, he conveyed that hollow look with his eyes that I've not seen since I was on the inside. It gave me chills.

So this is where we are. Mal, what did you think of like the production design and the visuals of this space that we find ourselves in? I mean, so so many different things to say here. I think that the moment where the warden is talking about the calm and the clean and all of these different things that are present around them, this like sterile, tidy, ordered environment. The idea that they don't need to have weapons on them. how can that be? And then that's when we get that that first frying. The fact that the very ground that you're standing on can be used to harm and torment you constantly at any point to the point where we see one of the inmates, as they say, he railed it.

We see one of the inmates on the red light floor of the block at night kill himself. the peril is embedded into the very ground that they stand on. You played that Shawshank clip and like you mentioned Marva and thinking back last week

to like Cassie and saying we'll find a place they haven't ruined yet and Marva saying I'm already there that place is in my head they can build as many barracks as they like they'll never find me and the contrast to the fact that

in this prison, labor, factory, that is an impossibility. That's the whole point. That it is designed to rob you of the chance to find that inside of yourself, to build that for yourself. And so, like, we have a character like Melshi. So when we know from Rogue One, what an unbelievable moment to see, to see him enter the story here and realize that this is the origin for him and Cassian. And we think of that character not only as being a part acting. of the rebellion, but a character who will go and do anything to pull somebody out of a similar circumstance. Right. He breaks Jen out of her work camp. Right. And to help ignite that ember of hope for somebody else, even when it seems like the circumstances are too dire. And so to hear him say here to Cassian, I thought this was one of the most chilling moments of the entire episode, don't ever look at the number. Double, triple, it doesn't matter. You're into

they don't want you anymore. Get straight with that. Anyone who thinks they're getting out now is dreaming, those days are over. Like that is the embodiment of hope being sucked out of you, that every single step you take reminds you not to have it. What a horrible thing. And what can Cassian, who has not been our source of hope, but what does injecting Cassian, who has met some members of the rebellion, injecting him,

into this scenario, is he able to spark hope in those around him? You know what I mean? An unlikely source. Similar to Jin, Rogue One, right? We meet her and she's like, I don't want to think. And then she becomes the burning ember at the heart of this. I mean, we've done all of this and we haven't talked about Andy Circus properly yet. So here comes Andy.

And, you know, there's some clear, his character, Kinoloi is a prisoner who has been given the sort of like foreman assignment on this work floor. And there's a clear gamification, or if you prefer, like, squid gamification of this prison scenario where we're building something, we're on a clock. If we're last, you know, we get fried. if we're first, maybe we get some taste in our food. Oh, no, flavor is first. Taste is second. You know, it's like... Taste is first, then flavor.

Oh, flavor. Okay. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, how did Andy play for you in all of this, Mallory? So on the squid game front, for all of the different reasons that you set the clock, everything, certainly the announcer, that disembodied voice, the modified voice of God, voice in the sky, counting down the seconds till you're... Doom, the gamified nature of it, play, call it what you want, all of that, like really,

really strongly evoked squid games, squid games. But I also was, I was also thinking of other moments in Star Wars where some sort of gamification is introduced into like a pretty terrifying pursuit. Like I was thinking a bit about the box, which is a Clone Wars episode in the Obi-1 is undercover arc. It's a bounty hunter arc. Obviously, it's Clone Wars, it's pre-empsire. But still, like, the gamification of something that is going to claim lives and the end goal is something terrible.

I thought that was really top of mind for me. But I also thought about breaking ranks, which is a Rebels episode where Ezra is undercover as a cadet at the Imperial Academy. And the training for the cadets is highly gamified. racing each other up the different blocks. Who can get there first? Who's rewarded and told they're the best little imperial because they won the game? And so this is like, I think,

just a very present thing, the competition that you breed between the people who are in the system. And like, it's of course not exactly a one-to-one with what we see at the ISB table, but it is of a piece that like the empire is always trying to forge dissent and distrust, not unity.

So the games are a part of that. And parcel out the illusion of power. And achievement. For someone like Keen Oloi, like here's a tiny scrap of power. But really. And again, it goes to that larger conversation that Lutheran is having with SAW about like finding common cause because the empire is so invested in making you believe all these prisoners in this in this prison believe that they are not united against the. guards, but rather divided against each other, right? Right.

The only people you're working with are the people at your table. You're opposed to every single other person there. I thought that, like, the way that our really, like, first introduction to Ticino, we're getting the rundown of Unit 52D, all of the different seven, seven, the most powerfully magical number, certainly. But, like, one of the first things that we hear him say is he won't be back talking about the guard. They only come to bring up the dead and bring their repatripping.

placements. You're mine now. Harrowing. I mean, deeply harrowing, but also felt like wrapped within that is, again, we know that a prison break is coming, right? And or doesn't die in this prison. Like, two characters at least are getting out of this prison, right? So, all the information that we get in this episode, everything that Cassian has his eye on is all information for an eventual break. Absolutely. So that's part of it. It's information about where the guards go

wrapped inside of a soul-crushing description of your mind now. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that really remind me of a good game, of course, is like we meet this character, Ulaf, one of the characters at one of the people on his team, played by Christopher Fairbank,

who you might recognize some Guardians of the Galaxy. He's a character actor I know. So I was like, I have my eye on you. But he's just like overtly physically frail when we meet him. And there's like, you know, there's that older, older man in Skud game. And it's just sort of like when your existence is dependent on your ability to labor. And specifically when you're on a team, like this is the Skid game question is like, no one wants to partner with this older man because he's physically frail. So like when you're in a team and you're physically frail,

Like, that makes you nervous for everyone. Absolutely. Every single person I am so nervous for. Yeah. Like your first instinct is, oh, no, are the guards going to eliminate him because he's no longer productive enough? But of course, I think the thing we're meant to be thinking is exactly that, Joe. Like, is one of the people on his own table going to eliminate him because he's a liability. And I think, like, that idea of common cause.

So with Kino, one of the other, and this connects to the Shawshank point in the Hope Club as well. Like one of the first things we hear him say also is, and this was, this line bould me over. Sick, injured, you talk to me. Problems with another inmate. I'll know before you do. Losing hope, your mind, keep it to yourself. Don't ever slow up my line. There's no room for what is happening inside of a person's heart or head in this world. None. That is the thing they are stripping away. In terms of that production design, the gleaming white hallways are familiar to us from Star Wars. There's also a lot of visual reference to THX 1138, the George Lucas joint. But also, I love this email we got from Brian who wrote how much he enjoyed that the production design in costume was subtly nodding to the rebellion, building up the myth and the hope it carries, sewing the resistance into the ether of this very real lived in increasingly oppressed world.

Brasso and the blue collar workers back on Farix wearing orange coveralls, the color of the prison jumpsuits on Narcina 5, that white body with the orange stripe, definitely evokes some rogue squadron jumpsuit feels from this viewer. That on top of how excited the other prisoners were, hoping Cassian had anything, a shred of news, confirming the rebellions existent, movements, growth. They all gave off real Last Jedi broomboy vibes to me. But I like, I, the orange definitely jumped out to me as like, you know. Yeah.

The orange made me think of, um, another Rebels episode actually, and Rebels more broadly, orange is the color of the logo. It's a very rebelsy cut. It's the color of Ezra's coveralls. But like also in another, in an episode called an Inside Man, which is a Lathal-based Thrawn and Price-centric episode that, yeah, the, the specific thing that is unfolding in that episode is that people who. have no other path forward on Lethal anymore who have lost their farms, lost their lives,

etc. Are forced into working to, again, it's a, it's a factory. It's a manufacturing plant to manufacture the tools of the empire that is oppressing them. And part of the way that the rebellion is bubbling there is that they are compromising the tech. And I won't spoil what happens. I will just say that it is horrific the way that the end. empire on earths the seeds of that rebellion. And so that was very, that was very top of my career.

But those jumpsuits are orange as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Ben and his column broke down like a few other sort of jail work camp positions that we've seen before, like the Spice Minds of Castle or the Death Star detention block in episode four or, you know, the police headquarters in Canto Bight. Or there's like a prison break episode of Mandalorian, you know.

But these are all very, we're going to be here a minute based on what we know the rhythms of Andor, right? We expect that for this three episode arc, I would expect, this is the Narcina 5 arc for Cassian, right? So we're going to be here a minute. And I already mentioned that, like, I felt like all the detailing that they put into this location is similar to what we got from Aldani or Barak. But unlike those situations where they're giving us all this detail of a culture to show us what's worth fighting for, this feels like giving us all this information about what's worth fighting against, right? What's worth eliminating off out of this galaxy. Like, I want them to blow this place up, right? No one should ever, ever be here.

And again, I think because this is a prequel, because we know two characters that the least are going to get out of here, the tension then isn't if. Because, I mean, if you didn't know Rogue One, you could say if. No one knows that Cassie Nandor is here. He's in the system under a different name entirely.

They don't seem to have fingerprinted him. It's not pinged for ISB that he's here. there's no one is any way of knowing, you know, I guess unless they trace him to space Miami, and I guess unless they find his one-night stand, but she doesn't even know. So no one knows that he's here. So the question isn't, but the question isn't, is he going to get out? The question is how is he going to get out? How is he changed while he's there?

What is about it being there that changes him? And how does the story of that escape feed into these larger themes? of rebellion and revolution. Absolutely. We're almost done here. I did want to shout out. I was also like the work units as measures of time, the 30 shifts later time jumps, right?

But that ticker that's in their cell reminded me a lot of my favorite Black Mirror episode, which is 15 million merits, which is the one that has Daniel Kalua in it. and that that's a black glossy space but those characters are constantly trying to work

up a number and they are in these cells where they are constantly observed and like it's horrifying as most black mirror is but like I couldn't help but thinking about that anything else you want to say about this

I do like that like so 30 days later 30 shifts later Cassine's team is much faster than it was before because, you know, Cassie's on the team and I guess he's good at it. But what I love is that we cut away before, like, we were in this situation where we're like, okay, are they going to win this time and we're watching it? And then we cut away before we find out. And that feels like the point because it's like that winning is not. There's no winning. It's not a win, you know?

Yeah. There's no winning at all. It's, uh, whewf. Man. What an episode of television. I just, I think that, I think that six was so far the episode of Andor that I would say like, oh, yeah, this was one of my favorite hours of Star Wars ever. But this was my favorite episode of Andor yet, if that makes sense. It's like a distinction.

Because I think that this is the, this is like what this episode achieves in terms of the central focus and pursuits of this story and the themes at the heart. of it and the dynamics at the heart of it and the really elevated and imperative like moral and political pursuits this was a masterpiece like I just can't believe we're getting to watch the show every week

and I am I'm like awed by every second of it and I'm bummed that we only have four left but I have no doubt that they will be sensational and then after we complete that journey I can been the next two years telling you, I can't believe we have to wait two more years for season

two. So it goes. So it goes. I have one more listener. Well, before we go, because, like, it's very interesting that they're using human labor in this place where we know there are droids everywhere. Like, what is the point of human labor, perhaps, to break the spirit of the humans? But we got this email from Kathy, who's asking more specifically, I'm curious about where

we are in the life of the clones and the use of stormtroopers. Watching the prisoners use the way they are, I would. was thinking that droids would be more efficient and less trouble. I guess the opportunity for cruelty is the point. The empire has lots of experience managing large numbers of workers whose lives slash humanity they do not care about. But I guess I wanted to ask you, Mallory, like, where are we in the like transition out of clone labor into putting humans in the true pursuit? And where, like, so what should we think about in terms of like how the empire is thinking about human labor or human recruitment? So a few, it's a great question.

A few different things here. I was chatting with our pal Ben Lindberg about this. And, okay, so just in terms of the timeline, I'd say a key recent bit of canon to keep in mind is from Bad Batch, which has come up a couple of times today and is a great and really fun show and connects a lot of different strands of the timeline, interestingly. Part of season one of Bad Batch centers on,

and of course the Bad Batch, I should say, that's Clone Force 99. So those are those characters connect to the clone troopers directly. One of the early stretches of Badmatch

centers on the empire shifting away from clone troopers to conscripted soldiers. And there are various different reasons

for that. Not everybody agrees so that's the way to go, but there are various different reasons for that. However, the key thing to know here is that we are

now and or well later in the timeline. We're a decade down the road, right? So the move to conscripted soldiers to stormtroopers is well underway at this point. The clones, that's in the past. The droid question, and while clones are people, and I think one of the reasons I love the Clone Wars, the animated series so much, is because it focuses on. their individuality and the fact that they are all unique people with unique preferences and

relationships and interests. For Palpatine, they were akin to droids. That's one of the horrifying things about it. Let me just manufacture people to treat like machines, right? So whether it was the clones or the droids, expensive. Very expensive.

That's part of it. One of the things that Andor is doing a great job of showing us is what goes into maintaining galactic-wide control and how costly that is and how big it is. Also, with a lot of love to our B-1 droids and our little Roger-Rogger memes, they're just terrible at their jobs. Now, other droids, B-2s and many other lines of droids

who are developed who are superior to B-1s. But I think that there are those, like, practical answers. I think there's also the kind of more, like, sinister human answer, which is for Palpatine, for the Empire, with conscripted troopers, the idea that you were getting people to enlist in your cause, that you were getting people to sign up and say, I want to be a part of this. I want to be a part of the empire. Like Cyril is saying about his particular work, that is a powerful. that is a powerful, powerful way to wrap up the galaxy in that closing fist.

Anybody who is a part of it is not opposed to you until they are until they break off and learn to and rebel, right? And again, so that's that parsaling out of meager power. Like here's a blaster that I guess we're not going to teach you how to use. You know, so you've got a little bit of authority and power. Here's your shiny little... Here's your own shiny white little prison that we're going to trap you in, your trooper suit, right?

But yeah, then you're assimilated into us and you're not against us. Yeah. And I think there's also something like if we think about pharynx, Marva, Bix, Raso, anyone, like, the trooper suit, that helmet. Obviously, the helmet is one of the most iconic things in culture. But, like, yes, it's a layer of a division, but you still know there's a person underneath that. You still know that there's a person there who is choose. to hold that blaster up to you. It is a little bit different if it's a droid, even though you understand that somebody is controlling that droid. So I think it heightens that human stakes of like,

who are we fighting against? Who are we fighting? And what are we fighting for? The last question I have for you is one that's really worrying me. And hopefully you can just tell me that I missed something really obvious. But like, what is the chain of custody on Nemex manifesto? I don't think you missed anything obvious, Joe. I don't think we know if it's, if the notebook is with the credits above the shower, in which case I assume it's just drenched, disintegrated, and milded mush, yeah. Just pulp?

Or did he leave it with Marva back in? My hope is that it's unfair X, that he set that aside, that he put that somewhere safe. Maybe it's with Bix. Maybe it's with Marva up. Maybe it's with B. Maybe B was entrusted to care for that.

I feel like he would have just tucked it away somewhere. You know what I mean? But I think it's really interesting that we didn't see a shot of him putting it down somewhere. In a different show, we would have seen the obvious shot of him putting it somewhere. And we've been like, oh, Cassie's going to be back for that. But I didn't see it in the briefcase above the shower.

And I didn't see him put it anywhere. So Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com, if you have to know where the fuck Nemex Manifesto is because I would like to know because if it gets lost, I'll be very mad at Cassie Nandor. I think, like, also it would be really rewarding to learn because he didn't want to take it. They'll made him. And it would be really, like, rewarding and rich to learn a couple episodes down the road that he actually cared enough to make sure that was safe. Yeah. All right.

Before we go today, we're introducing the first of what we hope will be many new moments and corners on our Andor coverage through the last four weeks of Andor. You've heard us do Secret Scroll. You've heard us do Faceless Man on. Hot D. We're going to do Secret Force User Corner. Is there a secret force user in this episode of television? And if so, who are they? Okay.

How about Mon's daughter? How about Leda? Oh, my God. That's my pick. Sorry, that's so loud. That was so loud. I love it. I just like, I just like gave a whole, that's the stuff.

Lionel, like, jump out of my chair. Wouldn't you agree? All right, Leda, it is. Something's going on with her. We don't know why yet. All right. What does it for us for Andor? Thanks, of course, to Ben Lindbergh for joining us and bringing all his saw expertise.

What a treasure Ben is for us. Thanks to Virginia Raqqal for all of his production work on all the many episodes of House of our that we did this week. And Talk to Thrones, just a lot. And the Midnight Boys, a lot going on. Thanks of course to Carlos Chiroboga, who is like, who brought us all the way through Rings of Power, who knocked out these episodes of Andor for us, like great stuff. Jomi, a dinner on for the memes, our meme king, Jomey. Great, again, great, great footshot from this episode.

Mallory hadn't seen the episode yet, but she had seen that foot shot. Were you like, what's happening? Yeah. I was. Yes, I was wondering what all of that. the foot jokes were about. Speaking of Jomey's memes, do you, do you want to talk about the boots?

I did enjoy, I mean, I can't say that I'm interested in procuring the Hype Beast prison guard footwear, but I did enjoy the meme of the sneaker strap. That was very funny.

All right. For those listening who don't know, Mallory is the sneaker queen. Just quite an accomplice. collection she has. All right, well, that does it for us. We'll be back, as we said, next week with more and or the Midnight Boys will also be back. Poo-Pew! Then we'll be talking about Wakanda forever pretty soon, and then, you know, the content just keeps coming. So thank you for joining us. Have a great weekend. Bye.

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