The Ringer-Verse - 'Andor' Episode 9 Deep Dive, Plus Andy Serkis | House of R

Episode Date: November 4, 2022

They want what you want! Jo and Mal jump back into the ISB and dive deep into the latest episode of 'Andor' (06:11). Later they are joined by Ben Lindbergh to discuss the twisted meeting between him and Dedra, then they take a look at what is going on with his character (38:04). Joanna also sits down with actor Andy Serkis to discuss the compelling character of Keno Loy (1:59:58). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Guest: Ben Lindbergh Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I thought I was done. After meeting you and discovering you understood how dangerous Cassie Nandor was and just being in your presence, I... I've realized that life was worth living. I realized that if nothing else there was justice and beauty in the galaxy and if it just kept going. Perhaps my deranged belief, that there was something better faded for me.

The future was a dream worth clinging to. To the ringerverse, your Nexus podcast feed for all things. Fandom, I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today. Now that she's done rifling through Cyril Carnes' private box, it's Maloney. It's Mallory, hi, Mallory. The hardest of passes. I'm going anywhere near Cyril's private box. I'll leave that to his mother.

How are you doing, Mal? How's it going? Oh, Joe, it's great to be back with you. I've missed you the last few days. The week felt strange without 10 hours of pods with you. So I'm just overjoyed to see you in my little Zoom box yet again. I feel exactly the same way. So we're here today to talk to you about and or another incredible episode.

Episode nine, nobody's listening, exclamation mark. Of course, Andor is not all that's happening in the feed these days, right? Like, there's us talking about Andor. There's the Midnight Boys early as week talking about Andor. But they also talked about Tales of the Jedi, which we'd be getting a lot of requests for some Tales of the Jedi coverage. So if you're looking for it, you can hear the Midnight Boys really break it down on Wednesday. Great stuff. Also, Wakanda Forever's on the horizon.

So we will have having the Midnight Boys direction in Wakanda Forever. Mallory and I will be breaking down Wakanda forever. You know, a lot of stuff is coming. We might be out of the like, we're podcasting every single day of the week. Hot nerd autumn. But here we are in cool nerd winter. Molly Rubin, if people want to hear all of our takes hot and cold, like, where can they find? What should they do?

Oh, first suggestion is to follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And also recommend following the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We're on TikTok. Check us out over there on TikTok. Check out the Instagram feed. Find us where you'd like. And you know what? Send us your musings. Send us your emails at Hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. The inbox is up and running. Going strong. The common one is active. We're getting many Apple emails a day at this point. It's now turned into a whole bit. It's Apple season. So I'm not surprised. Yeah. We're getting a a lot of Apple emails.

So, yeah, if you've got strong feelings about Apple for riotals or anything else, Hobbiton Dragons.g.com. Spoiler warning. One such email that we got at Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com was someone saying, hey, I haven't watched Rogue One, but I want to listen to your Andor podcast. Does Rogue One spoil Andor? And if you're listening, which I hope you aren't, yes, if you haven't seen Rogue One, and you're watching Andor.

Massive spoilers, I suppose, if you want to call it that, in Rogue One. So if you're trying to stay pure of, of, you know, what the future for Cassie and Andor holds, then, you know, don't listen to this podcast, I would say. Or watch Rogue One, better idea. And then listen to all of the pod. Way better idea. Way better idea. Watch Rogue One. Yes, Mallor is like, how would we not discourage people from listening?

Yeah. watch Rogue One. What an incredible film. You can spend two hours with Rogue One and then 200 hours with us. Think of it that way. What could be better? Mal, what else is on the table, spoiler-wise, for this episode of the podcast? Oh, as always, anything that exists in Star Wars Canon. It's on the table today.

Anything. Anything from the films, anything from the television shows, anything from the animated shows, novels, comics. All of it. We're really doing it. Today, we've got a special guest on the pod. Andy Circus ever heard of him. Kinolei himself. We heard of him a lot.

Yeah, speaking of Lord of the Rings, the genre triple crown king himself, Andy Circus, will be here. Frilling to talk about Kina Loi. It's just a short little chat, but he said something that really unlocked something bigger for Andor, for me that I'm really excited to talk about.

So stay tuned. That will be at the end of the pod after we go through this episode, beat by beat. Last but certainly not least in this very important intro section, I just want to let you know, Mallory, that we now have official confirmation that Pizos, the greedy, greedy green ones, are a form of legal stimulants. This was a debate Mallory and I were having sort of internally when they were talking about getting Pizos. This was our instinct, though. Yeah, on NAMOS.

We're like, when you say greedy, greedy green ones, it sounds like you're getting stimulants. So, yeah, that's what was happening in Space, Miami, if you had any questions about that. Here we go. Episode 9, nobody's listening, written by Bo Willemann and directed by Toby Haynes. They did the previous episode, and they will be doing the next episode in this little three-episode arc centered around, you know, let's see Cassian's time in Arquina 5. I just want to shout out. We talked about Bo Willemann last week in his, like, House of Cards, bona fides. But I wanted to shout out Toby Haynes, who has directed some banger Doctor Who episodes, specifically the Matt Smith era, the Pindexam. Dorka opens is a really, really good one. The Impossible Astronaut, I think, is another one that he did.

He also did Jonathan Strait and Mr. Norrell. Did you watch that miniseries or read that book, Mel? I have the book, yeah, but I haven't watched the show. It's been on my list to catch up on for the last couple of years. Did you enjoy it? All right. When we finally gave you that time turner, we will watch John's Station. Yeah, that's a fantastic miniseries adaptation of a fantastic book that I really recommend.

And then he also directed the USS Callister episode of Black Mirror, really disturbing Star Trek episode of Black Mirror. So Toby, he's, you know, it's just interesting because I was reading, I was going back and reading some of the like Tony Gilroy, how Tony Gilroy came on this project in the first place. Tony Gilroy being our EP and our sort of general showrunner. You know, and he came in as a replacement for someone else. And then he was supposed to direct. It was going to be like he was going to show run and direct the whole thing. And then I guess he was like, oh, hey, that's too much for one human being to do. Maybe I should hire some other people to direct.

And then, like, Toby was hired on because Toby is directing the majority of the episodes. And I just thought it was interesting because Toby is like, he's a workman sort of TV director. But he has done such an incredible job, a stylistic job with these and or episodes. So I just thought it was worth, like, thinking about his. how he got here. And, I mean, where he could go from here. I hope the door is wide over from for him to do whatever he wants because it's incredible work. So, absolutely. Let's go. Deep dive, episode nine. Are you ready? I am. This was an extraordinary episode of television. I'm so, so excited to chat about it. Tell me your, yeah, tell me your, yeah, tell me your broader thoughts

before we go beat by beat. Like, what do you want to say about it? It's just I, I'm having a hard time remembering the last time that every week I left the latest episode of a show saying that's one of the best hours of TV I've ever seen, which is my experience with Andor. And like, it's plumbing depths of introspection and conversation and philosophical and societal inquiry and examination. And I just think are extraordinary. And it feels totally at place and at home in the universe in which it exists, but also like you could port it over into any context and feel like similarly ported to that kind of level of examination. I just think it's absolutely extraordinary. I never wanted to end. But also, you know, we got a lot of lines in this episode about time.

Time is not unlimited. And I think the fact that it will end and has a set scope as part of the part of the strength of it. It has like it moves with such a deliberate, carefully craft. flow and pace. And it's just an absolute, it's an absolute masterclass. I think it's easily one of the best shows of the year. And certainly one of the best pieces of Star Wars period that we've ever gotten.

I just admit all of it. I completely agree. I completely agree. And I think that like, to your point about the pacing and the balance, like these little mini arcs, we've talked about a couple times in just the few weeks that we've been covering Andor, but like these little three-episode contained stories, which, as I think you've pointed out, mirrors what we often get in Clomores and rebels,

these little sort of mini-archs. I also think of like Avatar has a bunch of these little mini-archs as well, The Last Airbender and Cora. And it's just a perfect amount of time, because with a character such as Kino Lois, played by Andy Circus, like I love that we get, you know, you think about the Mandalorian, a show that we love, but a lot of times, you know, those interesting characters, love.

Those interesting characters, your Cobb Vance. Like, you know, you have like, usually, unless they become repeat performers, have, like, one episode to get to know and love and then move on from them. You know what I mean? Like, but imagine if, like, the crate dragon intro of Cobb Vance in season two of Mandalorian, imagine that were like a three-episode arc and we spend like even more time in that spot. Like, I think I think I would love Mando even more than I already do if it had some of this, like, let's root in a place for a little bit, not the whole season, but we don't want to be stuck on Tatween, right? But like, let's root in place for a little bit and then and then move on.

So, yeah. So let's start with what I'm calling the Breaking of Bix Colleen by also all-time Star Wars names on the show just constantly. I think every single name is like incredible shit. I don't know if there's a generator that they use over Lucasfilm or if it's like someone's job to like put these names in hats or whatever. But Bix Colleen, Kino Loy, I just think they're all take home. Like they're all just like, I don't have to reach for them. They're all just there in my brain. Anyway, Bix, in custody as we saw at the end of last week's episode, we get didramuro.

And you'll notice that I'm always splitting the difference on the E and Dedra because I think it's Dedra. Dejaro, you're my netbix. I mean, all-time interrogation scene. Mallory, what do you want to say about this interrogation interaction? Bone chilling. I'll save my thoughts on the doctor gorst of it all for when we hit that in a couple minutes and just stick with this opening scene for now. I have a lot to say about gorse.

Gorsed. You got some notes? Okay. Okay. Mero, Benet, the fish, the I take a more nuanced view, I try, boast.

Such a deft way to take a lot of what the audience was feeling about this character instinctively in the early episodes, this impulse to invest in Deja's arc and advancement. Oh, you are not doing this the same way as everybody else. You are seeing something that they're not. And absolutely weaponize that against us so that we see the naked savagery of it.

Like the fact that so many people in the empire, and this is also terrifying, right, in some ways utterly terrifying, say everything is a fish to me. The whole point of the net is that there's no room. for nuance, that it catches everything when you sweep it across the surface of the water, and then to take a character like Miro and say, I'm going to take the time to look at every single thing inside of it and decide what to do with it. Just utterly, utterly horrifying. I think we'll use the word harrow.

We'll set our house of our record for the utterance of the word horrifying today. Harrow, yeah. I love that, you know, like, she's not like other girls. She's not like other Imperials, right? And the way exactly, the way in which, and we talked about this a couple weeks ago when Tony Gilroy was like, we've set up her arc so that you're rooting for her in a certain way because you're used to this story of like a woman in a male-dominated workplace who is overlooked and ignored. And then you're like, oh, shit, I don't want someone who's good at their job in this job, right? Like bring back Blevyn.

His incompetence was much better for the rebellion. We would prefer him. And so I think all of that is really fascinating her body language. Like the way that this, Denise Goff is playing this character, the lean in, the sneers, the, and the way in which this interrogation, she's playing, because Gorse is there, just sort of fiddling with his equipment in the background. Hanging out in the corner. Giving out in the corner.

Give him little handwaves, right? But she's playing kind of both good cop and bad cop at the same time, right? She's like, now I'd prefer the conversation rather than, you know, put Dr. Gorse back to work. That's a good cop, bad cop, but she's not good coping, you know, bicks. She's like, I'm scary and I'm sneery and you should be terrified, you know, and I think it's really good, yeah. The leaning in and the almost like jovial yearning of the, which of course just makes us think there's more to be learned when recounting what happened with Pach and the idea of like time again manifesting here, time wasted, time spent.

It hardly seems worth the price he paid. Like you're tormentor saying that about you to somebody else who has a price. personal relationship to this other person. Like that we think back now to that glimpse in the very sinister nature of letting, making sure that Bix saw a pox sitting there in the room when she walked in last week so that every word delivered here connects to that horrifying glimpse of him slumped over, barely alive, barely conscious, barely himself anymore in his seat. And knowing, knowing that that's the, that's the faith that awaits you.

And like the, you know, all of that. thought everything about the backstory, this idea of like one meeting. We hear about a woman. We assume, I assumed that that's Clea. Like we're piecing together, this net just as Miro is piecing it together, which I thought was also just like the genius of the structure of this episode. We, the audience, are seeing the map come together in our mind. And we know that that's what they're piecing together too. And so like it's exciting for us to discover more of these connections and what are we programmed as viewers to want, backstory, to understand how people. people came into each other's orbit. But it's terrifying to learn these things here because it

means that the people who can't, who we don't want to be in possession of this information have too. And like that that conflict and tension as you're watching is just absolutely like extraordinary. I think that's really smart because, you know, it's a, it's a common storytelling caution of you don't want your audience too far out of your character because then your character looks stupid. So we already know so much about Luthan and Mahn and everything that they're doing. But the fact that, yeah, as you say, we're learning some of the pieces along with Miro means that, you know, we're on pace with her. And she does, I mean, she's scary smart and scary perceptive. And let's talk about Dr. Gorsd.

You mentioned the like sort of enthusiasm of like, that means there's more to learn. I thought the way that this, you know, we've seen plenty of torturers in our time. in various shows, whether it's alias or other, you know, like film examples, etc. Including in Star Wars, right? Here's your Imperial Probe droid. Here's Kylo ripping something out of Po's head, yeah. Yes, yes. But like with Kylo, it's that like constant sad boy anger shit that Kylo has going on, right?

The rage. And then sometimes you see the sadist that, like, that's the alias example, this like twisted, sadistic sort of teeth pulling. sadist, torture. Gorse is something else entirely. And the actor here is Joshua James, and I just thought this was really incredible. Industry hive!

He's just such a like, gormless-looking guy, and he's just like, there's something almost affable about him. And so, again, there's that intellectual curiosity where he's like, it's not sadistic. It's, like, friendly and matter-of-fact. And he's just like, you know,

don't worry about the restraints. It's not physical. for your safety, you know? It's like, that's, by the way, classic BDSM conversation. We've had some early trials that are a bit chaotic. Chaotic! Terrifying. What are you talking about? And that's not even, we're not even into like what exactly the torture is. Like, what did this like eagerness, but not in that like creepy sadistic way, but just sort of like, oh, hi, I'm here. I'm Dr. Gors, your torturer. How did that land with you, Mel? One of the most unsettling things I've ever seen. like sincerely this

and it's it connects again I think to that net idea because that's a net too like a net of false safety or comfort and I don't even think that's the that's certainly gorse that's not his intention really he can't believe after this preamble

from Miro you know the worst thing that you can do is bore me and big saying you're not going to believe me anyway are you know I suppose not like this the rules of this engagement are clearly established but you see that smile and this not only cheerful, but like intellectually curious preamble to this torment that he is about to unleash. I thought that in general, and we'll play the clip here at a second and we'll talk about the actual substance of what he says in a minute here and of what they're unleashing on Bix and others, including the pilot that they find later in the episode, including Pock. This is something that they're doing to multiple people.

and it gives them a higher confidence in the intel that they glean because of this particular technique. The idea that somebody would be smiling through their day as they tell you that the restraints they're putting on you or for your protection is I think just one of the most nimble encapsulations of the utterly insidious nature of the empire and the creep of the empire and the way that it roots itself across the galaxy and into your life, like that the people who are a part of it, and this will be, I think a large part of our discussion later today about Cyril, some people are just signing up and going about their day. This is a job for me. And then you have the true believers. And sometimes that true belief is like a religious or philosophical pursuit. Sometimes it's an intellectual pursuit.

But when there is a buy-in to this extent in unleashing a horror on another human being, like it's just, it crystallizes for us inside of this episode and this show what the empire is doing on a very, like, a mass scale across the galaxy, but also I thought that was the brilliance of this. It's like, it's not just a room. It could be a white room at the ISB. It could be an interrogation chamber, but it's not. It's your home.

Like, it's the hotel down the street where you walked every day of your life. Like, it's just right there around the corner waiting for you. That's the thing that they've penetrated, like the very sanctity of your existence. And then your mind. And then your mind. There are no doors that they can't bust through, right?

And I think to go back really quickly, you mentioned that the very worst thing you can do right now is Bore Meiline from Muro. I think it's worth always paying attention in these episodes, the way in which they reflect language on the imperial side and language on the rebellion side because we later have Vell at dinner talking about, you know, parent and Vell talking about like, oh, you know, parents like people who are involved in the rebellion are boring. She's like, well, no one ever accuse me of being boring. You know what I mean? So there's just constantly these tiny sprinkling of reflective language. And that goes to Gors, because a character like Gorsd, and the way this show is showing us the empire as not just mustache-twirling villains, but people with interior, complicated interior lives, and that's even scarier.

We're going to come back to that. Let's listen to Gors. what's on the menu here for Bix. What's important for our purposes here today is that the massacre of the Dysenites was broadcast and recorded as proof of mission. They make a sound as they die, a sort of choral, agonized pleading. It's quite unlike anything anyone had ever heard before. There were three communications officers monitoring the documentation,

and they were found hours later huddled together in various states of emotional distress in a crawl space beneath the ship's bridge. We've taken the recordings and modified them slightly. Layering, adjusting, and we've found a section of what we believe are primarily children, which has its own particular effect. It doesn't take long. It won't feel that way to you inside it,

but let me know when you're willing to cooperate. The delivery? of that is just so, it's not blasé so much, is it's just like, you know, again, slightly cheerful, intellectually curious, matter of fact, Gorsdian. And as you say, like later in the ISB when they're saying, oh, is this something, oh, is this a Gorse interrogation? Like the Gorse brand comes to mean something immediately and iconically in this episode because it's done deployed so well here so that later when they say send Gors, oh, was it Gors, we know exactly what that means. We know exactly what that means and we know and we don't have to see it again. It's just we've already

seen it here. The audio that we get here, this is the constant difference between the empire and the rebellion and even the reluctant rebels. And we'll get to that with sort of like Kino, etc. Is this idea of empathy? Is this idea of like the conversation that Luton and Saw were having last week of Saas like, I'm not willing to risk my people for this larger thing. Like the larger idea of empathy is the question, are we all united in this? Or is it my fight and your fight? And I'm not mixing, crossing the streams. And in this case, with someone like Bix, who is the kind of person who is empathetic, who is in. She's not like a rebel, rebel per se, but like she is an empathetic person. She cares about Marva. Like, this is something that is true of her nature.

this is weaponizing that, which is a strength, which is a virtue, is weaponizing and using it against people. And it reminds me of one of the better lines of the Obi-Wan show that was over the early trailers, the grand inquisitor saying the key to hunting Jedi's patience, Jedi cannot help what they are. Their compassion leaves a trail. The Jedi code is like an itch, right?

So Bix is not a Jedi, but like that idea of compassion as something that the empire can weaponize and use to trap to cut into the rebellion is such a brilliant through line. What do you think about this, sort of events? I think this is the scariest and most unsettling scene in the history of Star Wars. I agree with you.

I think that... Okay, so what you just said about preying on that tendency for empathy, I think, is brilliant. I would also say that because this is, this is set up for us, established for us as something that first happened to members of the imperial team, right? Those communication officers who are huddled. Even the members of the empire, exactly.

So it's simply your humanity. Like, maybe you are more susceptible if you were inclined to feel empathetically toward other people. But you couple that with what we see elsewhere, certainly across the episode, everything that's happening in the prison. But even if we skip ahead a couple minutes to like the end of this sequence where Miro is speaking to the captain, we see Bix in the background of this conversation, keep her alive just because they need a, they need somebody who can identify access if they ever find him, body tossed on the mattress, like a doll. We hear the captain beg to hang Pock in the

square to send a message. People are not people to the empire. To the empire. empire, they are just tools to weaponize as warnings to ply information from the only to use to build your machine because you're cheaper than a droid. The only time you're a person is if the actual substance of what makes you alive can be used for you to tear yourself apart, for them to tear you to pieces as you sit there in a chair chained in your own home and to tear your other, your fellow humans apart. Right. Even though that wouldn't be your inclination.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wouldn't be the thing you wanted to do. In terms of the Gorsian demeanor, I will say that I've been very preoccupied with these parallels that I'm seeing between this show and Terry Gilliam's film, Brazil, specifically around Cyril Caron's story, which we'll talk about a little bit later with Miro. But Michael Palin, one of the sheer. members of Monty Python's Flying Circus is the torturer in Terry Gilliams, Brazil, and is just, we meet him with a cheery smile on his face, he's covered in blood, and he's just like washing his hands another day, another, like another day at the job sort of thing. And I think it's that that they're trying to capture in this gorse approach here, and it is bone-shilling.

And also what the moment where he says, It doesn't take long. It won't feel that way to you inside. Has to make us think about Marva a couple episodes ago who was like, I found my escape. It's inside my head that can't reach me here. And here come Mira and Gorse and be like, oh, no, we figured out. We can get in there.

Whatever walls you think you've built around your brain, your inner peace, your inner life, we have found the drill that will pierce into that and penetrate. that and there's no hiding from us. Similar to that, like, your point last week about the electric flight floor, like there's no piece, there's no escape, there's no wall, there's no door. Right, exactly.

And like, you know, we talked a lot about Shawshank and that idea of hope. And if that's the thing that they can breach, that little ember of possibility inside of you, then what do you have left? And one of the things that we've really enjoyed chatting about, I think we've really enjoyed chatting

about the last couple weeks as we've talked about the show, you've noted the parallels. also the way that we're cutting between the different storylines inside of an episode, reinforcing some of these themes. And so, like, we see this idea of what are you carrying inside. We see that with Kino a lot as well. And the way that – and we'll talk about that later. But, like, the way that his shift inside of this episode is so centrally tethered to that

bit of, like, self-preservation, even if it's a lie he's been telling himself, that's the thing he's carried inside that has allowed him to move forward through the day. When they take that from you, you're either – that's – it that's a wrap. There's nothing left for you or you have to change something about your circumstance. You have to find someone who can help you do that. The other thing about the Gorsd interrogation that I thought was just astonishing. Okay, two things. One, the way that the show is made is exceptional. The artistry is like profound. The choice to pump up and elevate the score and then rip it out of the scene. Silence. And all we hear

is the increasingly rattled breathing from Bix, we never hear the sounds that she is hearing. We never hear the masker because there's nothing scarier than what we put into our own minds, how we fill that blank space. And that, I think, connects to that idea, too, that you were just mentioning of, like, it won't feel that way to you.

It made me think of a couple. You mentioned USS Calstar already. That particular idea made me think of White Christmas and Playtest, a couple other Black Mirror episodes where like this idea of whether you can trust your own mind and how perception and the very nature of like time, reality, communication can be turned against you to trap yourself inside of your own head utterly, utterly unmooring, right?

And like that's very present here too. The other thing that I thought was just like astonishing about this choice, the setup for this, extremely hostile to the concept of an imperial refueling center. Again, like basically sounds like he's recapping a football game talking about the massacre

of an entire species. A genocide. Yeah. Yeah. We have seen many times in Star Wars the empire go to a planet and destroy it. Destroy the people. Destroy the place. Strip it of its resources,

put something there that drastically alters the way of life. Canari at the very beginning of this show, we still don't have all of the puzzle pieces there, but we know that that mining facility changed the course of Cassian's life, his sister's life.

All of those adults are dead when we meet those children. We've, the Jedi episode of Mando when we meet Assoca on live action and we're on Corvus, and we see the way that that planet's ecosystem has been warped by the empire's pillaging, Lafal and rebels,

countless examples. This took that pattern and turned it up 200 degrees, because, and I can't stop thinking about this. It's not just that they are playing the sounds of massacred babies to torment Bix and all these other people and get them to reveal their secrets. The most terrific things we'd ever seen no matter what. How did they, how did they discover this? They didn't set out to invent this, Joe.

They didn't set out and sit down and say, let's think of a way to escalate our torture. They stumbled upon this in the daily course of destroying planets and lives. This is a thing that they only unearthed because of the horrors they were already unleashing. And so that glimpse of the cycle and perpetuating exponential nature

of empire oppressive. was present here in really like a stark and destabilizing way. And again, that idea of like what humanity looks like or does into the empire, you see three communications officers huddled up warped. You're like, how can we use that? Exactly. Not are you okay? How can we take what just happened here and turn this into a tool for us moving forward?

And I mean, you mentioned like ecosystems being destroyed and warped and stuff like that. But one of the very first things we see in Star Wars is Alderon, an entire planet being blowed up, right? Like a death star. Like, that's the whole thing. And, of course, one of the most famous lines in Star Wars is Obi-Wan saying, I felt a great disturbance of the forces if millions of voices suddenly cried out and terror were suddenly silenced. I mean, so to take that a quote, a quote that's so famous that, like, people would toss it off as a joke. but to drill into what does that mean to destroy a planet

for a genocide what does a genocide sound like and to put it in the ears of this character bicks who we care about who we've already met and we know her to be brave and tough to watch her crack almost instantly to have her scream turn into the scream of the machines

over Narcina 5 again this is just fucking art is what we're watching here as far as I'm concerned. And it is, you know, we got an email that I'm not going to read in full just because it was beautiful and very long, but it was from a lifelong Star Wars fan who was like, I've always understood why the rebellion was hopeful

and I felt jazzed about the rebels and thinking about them. But this is a show that's really showing me how evil the empire is in a way in just like such a more tactile way than I feel like we've ever understood. stood before with like bumbling stormtroopers or tie fighters that, you know, explode into sparks or whatever it is. You know what I mean? Like, we're getting, we've under, yeah, evil.

The dark side's evil. But like, what is the banality of evil? What is everyday evil? What does Gorse just doing his job on a Tuesday look like? Right. And it looks like this. And it's awesome. Yeah, there's an exacting quality to it that is just astonishing.

And like, you know what I'm? It's not a one-to-one, certainly. But it makes me think a little bit of the long, now long-running Marvel conversation. like the Thanos problem, what do you do after Thanos? Like when the stakes are that big and it's like half the half of all existence being wiped out, how can you ask people to like zoom back in and care? And my feeling that was always like, well, you need to zoom in to care. That's the whole point.

Like you've got to be walking the streets of San Francisco with Ant Man to understand what the rhythm of life is that you're trying to preserve and protect. And of course, like I think the Alderman point you just made is a great one. and especially noting that that's like our establishing experience with Star Wars and the scope and scale of what the empire can inflict. But when you zoom in and you're inside the room in that chair under those straps with somebody, it's impossible to then not recontextualize. Like, we'll never watch that the same way again. And of course, like as human beings watching Star Wars, you understand, oh my God, that's horrific. All those people just died.

But also, especially when you watch it as a kid, which a lot of us did, like, it just seems so too big and too abstract. We're just like, what does it mean to blow up a planet? I don't really know, you know? And then it's like, what does it mean for Bix in this chair to hear this distilled cry of children being wiped out? Like, what does that mean? And that and her scream and her breathing, as you point out, like just makes it all sort of on a molecular level sit with us differently. Bix, unlike Pac who's going to be hanged as hung, hanged, hanged, is the lesson I learned to, sorry, hanged.

As an example, Bix is being kept alive, not as bait for Ann Orp, because that's Marva's role. So thankfully, we're not torturing Marva, but Bix is, can identify Luthin. So she is useful to Mero. So she's going to be kept alive for now. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. It spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic

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We're going to go to what I'm calling Take Your Stocker to Work Day with Mero and Cyril Karn. And we're going to bring in our pal Ben Lindberg to talk about Cyril Karn. Hi, Ben. How are you? Hi, I want what you want.

I sense it. I know it. We all want to talk about Cyril Karn. I got a slack from Ben earlier this week where he was like, what do you think the deal with Cyril Karn is? And I had, like, that same thing had been sort of rattling around my brain. And I have been thinking about all week. And so usually we bring Ben on to give us like a lovely, like, lore lesson, but we just thought we would do Karn Corner with Ben Lindberg and talk about

this little creep that we've come to know and love. So let's talk about, like, let's start with like Cyril Karn at the, kitchen table with his mom, we find out that he's been, he's got a haircut. He's dressing, Ben, you do you. Shrimmed your hair, something we should know. Yes, I am freshly shorn up on top. Looking, looking good. Hopefully, you can be the judge of that. Ready to stand outside the ISB and wait and wait for someone to walk by. Yes. With my boom box, just hold it up for DEDRA. Oh, no. Oh, my God. So, So Cyril Carnes got a promotion, tells his mom that she goes from, like, you know, harassing him as per usual to proud of him. Immediately cites Uncle Harlow, wait till Uncle Harlow hears about this sort of thing.

Before that happens, though, he accuses her of prying into his private box and says he has ways of knowing that that's happened. Do you have any? And any theories about Cyril Karin's private box that you want to share at all? I've thought about it a lot. Yes. I mean, first of all, I love that line because it reminds me of the movie cliche where the villain says, you know, we have ways of making you talk, which is what his idol, Dedra, is doing in this episode as she tortures or to use her word interviews, fix. But Cyril, who does have actual talent as an investigator, I mean, he identified Cassian. Cassian, he is now using those skills to detect his mom's snooping in his room in her home,

but not prevent the snooping. Just know that it happened. There's just an impotence to it that I think is emblematic of his character. But as to what is in the box, what is in the box? That's the big question about Cyril. I think, I'm thinking Palpatine collector cards of some sort, maybe like a lock of deadress hair, perhaps a Cassian Indoor voodoo doll, design. for his customized ISB fit when he gets his uniform and has to tailor the collar.

Maybe like a diary full of rants about Edy. That's kind of what I'm thinking. Then we see Socrone waiting for Mero outside of a place of employee. Totally, totally normal, cool, chill things to do, something he's been doing. This is why he's been leaving the house early and getting in late as his mom points out. Because we know he doesn't have a social life, like absolutely not. He's been spending his time creepily hanging outside the ISB

Mallory Rubin, how did you feel about this? What a scene. This was so upsetting, but like magnetically riveting at the same time. It was like my jaw was on the floor watching this. I'm going to officially recommend that we induct this into this next line

into the Star Wars All of Fame, which was after he, thanked her for everything, the promotion that she's like, I did not get you promoted. I don't know what you're talking about. Why are you here?

You lunatic? And he says he wants to continue their conversation from the prior month. And she says, that wasn't a conversation. You were brought in for questioning. I got it. The perfect encapsulation of what a warped sense

of not only relationships, but reality Cyril has, and like how dangerous that is. Do you think she didn't get him the promotion or is she just denying that she got him the promotion? What do you think, Ben? It seemed like, I mean, I think it's kind of like at the Don Draper situation where, you know, he's obsessed with her and she doesn't think about him at all. I mean, she may be thinking about him after this scene, but it seemed to me like his name was cleared basically,

right? And so maybe that led to the promotion more so than her pulling strings because she liked him so much. But, I mean, relationships have started under more. more adverse circumstances, right? Could that be a meat cute during a conversation during being brought into questioning? I don't know. There's some vibes. There's some chemistry there. I don't know if, like, Dedra Cyril is the one true pairing of the show or whether it's Tay and Mon or maybe it's Val and Sinta, although I guess that's a canon ship now that's actually happening. So of the ones that we are wanting to happen, maybe so. So I don't know if like

Dedra's rejection here leads to disillusionment for him, and maybe that leads to some kind of conversion for this character, or there clearly is some kind of connection there, right? I mean, there's some sort of smoldering energy there among these two intensely committed people. Denise Goff and Kyle Seller were paired. These actors were paired in their sort of press interviews, so they give a joint interview to Star Wars.com about their characters. and we talked about this with Miro a bit, the Tony Gilroy quote, about like, you know, rooting for her. We've already talked about it in this episode, rooting for her until you're not sort of thing. So Kyle Saller says of Cyril that, like, or both of them, that DeJere and Cyril are heroes, quote,

heroes of their own journeys. I think they really believe they're doing the right thing in the relative sphere of their own existence. They both come from a place of lack and a desire to be seen and recognized. And the first time that happens in Cyril's life is when he meets. It's Dedra. Right. So he feels seen and known. Like a duckling or something.

Yes. Like Jacob and Twilight imprinting on a baby. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I'm fascinated by Cyril for a few reasons. I think the primary one is that I don't know who he is. You know, like Cassie and himself, I felt like I knew from Rogue One between the, I've been in this fight since I was six years old.

and we've all done terrible things on behalf of the rebellion and shooting the informant in his first scene, I felt like I more or less understood this guy, which is not to say that I'm not enjoying his journey and Diego Lugas' performance, but Andor, the show, isn't really about Andor for me so much. It's about what we learned through and or about fascism and resistance and hope and human nature.

And the other characters I knew nothing about or had a somewhat one-dimensional view of, Luthin and Dedra and Manmothma. And Cyril, maybe most of all, because Cyril especially, he just doesn't definitively fit into a clear character archetype, at least so far. And in a variety preview piece, Kyle Suler talked about how when he saw the scripts, it was completely different from what I expected the Star Wars scripts to look like. I had to flip back and look at the title, know this is Star Wars. He mentioned that Cyril going home to spend time with his mother was so un-Star Warsy. And you could say that not just about those specific scenes, but also Cyril himself.

I mean, in the history of Star Wars, how many reluctant or unlikely or roguish heroes have we seen? People who get plucked out of obscurity by the call to adventure or transcends some shady past and defect or reform? And that arc never really gets old, but I love having someone like Cyril who, like this series as a whole, just doesn't seem to fit into a pre-established box. He's in his own box, his own private box. Private box. With those sheave training cards. Yes. Mal, what do you think about that?

About Cyril and Dietra or his particular character? About this idea that like, so Star Wars is so famous for it's, you know, it's giving us that Joseph Campbell hero's journey again and again in different iterations. It's giving us archetypes that we really recognize. we feel like we know the Star Wars archetypes and how and or generally, but like Cyril Karn, I think specifically is sort of defying, slotting into any of those archetypes that we've come to know from Star Wars. Like, what do you think about that?

Yeah, it's, I've been trying to think of like who he reminds me of most for prior Star Wars characters. And it is, it's very difficult. Like, we love to say, okay, who fits in? the Han Solo mold, right? For example. And I think the character serial reminds me of most is Governor Price from Rebels and the Thron Books. Even that's not a one-to-one, but there's something like really destabilizing about learning more about Price's journey and how Price came to be a character who was responsible for like inflicting a lot of horror on a planet like LaFall, on a group of rebels we really care about

on people like Ezra, et cetera. And I think particularly, like, the involvement of parents is part of why that is one of the only comps I can latch on to, because, like, one of the things that is so shocking about Price's arc, you, and I won't obviously go beat for beat through it,

but you go from like, okay, my family, our mining business, our planet, our home, these changes, other people, people in the Senate, people in position of power, people with money, taking advantage, looking to make me feel small. How do I work my way up through this system that I believe in, but also see as like an opportunity for advancement? And when you start to realize, like, this person, their own parents are like disgusted by who they have become and what they're capable of doing. And I think that's interesting for me with Cyril too, because I think there's like

at impulse. It's a natural one for us as viewers. We see this really overbearing, diminishing parent. This mother who's constantly just like unleashing the guilt trips, the lectures, making Cyril feel like shit talking about his neglect. But I'll be honest that I don't feel any pity

for him in those moments. And I think in normal circumstances, I would. I'd be like, oh boy, look at how this really fraught family life and upbringing led to person becoming this way, I see what's on the other side of that, which is every return volley is just as rooted in viciousness. And it's like, Cyril is to me just like pure, in cell fascist, can't wait to inflict evil and order, his pursuit of order. What's a private box? It's just one more border that you put around something that you're trying to contain and

keep other people out of. Like, that's the entire lens through which he sees the world. It's borders. It's doors you close. It's lids you close. It's ways that you keep other people out and you find a way in. And so increasingly, I mean, I felt this way already in our prior chats. Increasingly, I'm like, I don't see a redemptive arc for this guy at all.

I would be frankly shocked if that's where we were heading. Yeah. And I have departed that train. Don't worry. And like with Miro, I'm really interested in. whether you two see a potential budding partnership there, especially given the attendant hurt variable in this episode and whether DeJro is losing trust in her lieutenant

and might look to sub him out, which I think is definitely one possibility. Oh, this guy who a couple times has gotten ahead of where I am in a given moment, and it makes me think of like Partagas saying, watch your back, right? Like, is Miro going to say out with this guy in with somebody who basically worships me and will do whatever I say? I don't know, though.

Like, there's a part of me that is a viewer I had. I hear Didera say, I swear I'll have you in a cage on the outer rim, and I'm waiting for Cyril to be like, promises, promises, what's our safe word, you know? And then there's, like, a part of me that thinks he believes that's the future. Gilroy and this team know that we as viewers are anticipating, whoa, this chemistry, this crackling, very unsettling, but very palpable energy between these characters.

How can they team up? How can they help each other? How can they advance through the ISB? I think it's just as likely, maybe more likely, that Miro means it when she says, I gave you a second chance already. You come near me again. You pursue any of this.

That's a wrap for you. I mentioned the impotence to his character when he's unable to prevent his mom from snooping in his room. And in my mind, sort of along the lines of what you were saying, he's sort of a, you know, he's completely culpable in the road he's going down, but he's also, he's just, he's a lonely, disaffected young man. You know, he's living in this little mid or lower level drab apartment with the stifling mother who has sort of seized on the empire as a means of developing an identity and a purpose.

He's the sort of angry young man who stumbles onto the wrong message board and becomes a conspiracy theorist or a mass shooter or something like that where. Right, right pipeline. Right. You know, and I think he's a little like Anakin, I guess, and that he's looking for validation from a father figure he lacks. There's some good in him potentially, or there was, but he goes down a dark path.

He wants power so he can control some inner insecurity. And you can see that whole history with Edie in the exchange they have in this episode where she calls him the shadow of a son, a tenant, a stranger. And he says, that's new. You want to remember that, right? You can tell that she's been brating him for years. He's been coming up with comebacks for years. They've had that kind of conversation many, many times.

The whole tone was set in the very first introduction. When he shows up at the door, she slaps him and then hugs him, right? I mean, that's the whole relationship in a nutshell. She's rebuking him for being there, but then also reproaching him whenever he isn't there. And the only way he can get her off his back is to tell her he's been promoted. And immediately her mood changes and she approves. And so he's kind of been conditioned to see that as a way to please her or to silence her. And, you know, as Han says about Luke, he has delusions of grandeur.

In this episode we see Cyril refers to his deranged belief that there was something better faded for me in the future. And Joanna, as you've noted, there's something Luke-like about Cyril's surroundings. Yeah, what with the 70s-style decor and the blue milk? And in Luke's case, the delusion of grandeur isn't really a delusion. but in Carnes case, it may be. And so does he really want justice, or does he just want people to acknowledge or respect him? Or he wants to be a hero, but he can't actually inspire anyone.

He isn't really heroic. And I also sort of see him as maybe a mirror image of Nemek in a way, because they're both idealists and true believers, even zealots just on different sides. And remember when Nemik had his intuition about Cassian, He's committed. I'm feeling that his belief in the cause, it kind of reminded me of Cyril saying he knows what Miro wants, right? So maybe Cyril's private box is where he keeps his manifestos about whether one can ever be too aggressive in preserving order.

But you could comp him to Cassian, too. He's not so different from his nemesis, you know, like Cassian, he starts the series on a somewhat backwater world. He lacks a living father figure at least. his mother doesn't approve of his lifestyle, his prospects are unclear, and the two of them end up on opposite sides, although again, Cyril is obsessed with Andor, and Andor doesn't think about Cyril at all. And one more thing to keep in mind, I think, you know, Kyle Saller is 39, Diego Luna's 42, but presumably both of these characters are supposed to be younger than that. And I think they read a little differently when you think of them as younger than they look, younger than

the actors are, because they aren't just mature, fully formed people when we meet them. They're trying to figure out who they are, which I guess is true of some 40-year-olds, but maybe more often true of 20-somethings. So they're trying to find a direction and they're proceeding down different paths. I think when we hear, when we hear Cyril Karn say, and we take out the word derange, and we say, perhaps my belief that there was something better faded for me in the future was dream we're clean to. I surprisingly had the self-awareness to say deranged, really. Yeah, but if you take the word deranged out, that's like some, like, Luke's Skywalker might as well be looking at a binary sunset when he says that, right?

Like, he's so loop-boating to me. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that that's why this character is so fascinating to me. So after Bad and I talked a little bit, I put this on Twitter because I'm still on Twitter for now, we'll see. But like, I put this on Twitter and, like, I was like, what's the deal with Sero Karn essentially? And I got so many different response.

And they all varied. Like, everyone has a different take on this, which I think is so interesting and wild to me. But I think that that's what's what they've done so. brilliantly is they've taken a hero arc class upward mobility, like, you know, all this sort of stuff, hero arcs that we are familiar with and shoved a wholly unlikable fascist in that role. And he's running, so we got this, I think, really interesting email from Anna, who wrote, I like the Dejocero's story because it's one of the classic tropes in dystopian, utopian stories,

a usually male character who is faithful to a communist or fascist system, starts wanting more individuality, rights, etc., and starts questioning the system itself inspired from love or sexual arousal towards a female character. Some examples are in 1984, we, lame as a rob, and even Paradise Loss, and I, Joanna, I'm going to throw Brazil into that. A lot of the time, the female character is fridged to inspire the male character to become a rebel. In Andor, I like the fact that this trope is told, not just from Cyril's, but from Deidra's point of view.

The face that Deidre makes at her office after encounter with Cyril during her morning commute is so exquisite. When her attendant updates her on their work, it was almost like her getting lost from her usual workday tempo and coming to her senses of what she actually does in her job at the same time. I don't expect them to become rebels, but it's very interesting that Andor is adding this extra layer of rebellious characters in the imperial structure. And so I, Joanna, in response to that, I want to yes and what Anna's saying.

And I was like, I think they're flipping it. I think what instead of, and I really think Brazil is a really good example of this because, and I've been seeing these Brazil parallels all over the place, The mother character for Cyril Karin, E. is so coded as the mother character from Brazil to me, played by the great Catherine Hellman. Like, just physically, they look quite similar. And I think that that story, which tells of Jonathan Price's, like,

functionary of a fascist society, falling in lust and love with this rebellious working class woman that he sees. And, like, when he first, like, jumps into the cab of her truck and tells her that he loves her, she's like, get the fuck out of here. Who are you? You aren't creep. What are you doing? And he's just like, I love you. I want to rebel with you.

I want to do whatever. Like, let's do it. And she's like, like, she's been so long being, like, get out of here. I didn't ask for this. What's wrong with you? So to see Cyril do a similar thing to Dedra, but, like, towards fascism instead of away from fascism is, I think a really interesting upending of a narrative. that we are, what we become familiar with.

And that's what Andor is constantly doing is making a sort of chaf against arcs that we think we can predict or understand. Yeah, that's really smart. I think there's like also this really infantilizing quality to the way that Cyril's mother treats him. Like, to be clear,

I love a bowl of sugary cereal in the morning as much as anyone. So no shots fired here. But the nature of like pouring his cereal for him, pouring his milk for him, for him, cleaning his room for him. It stands out hearing you two both talk about Luke because, like, honestly, Luke's kind of, listen, said with love and respect for Luke Skywalker, one of the most important

fictional characters in my life, kind of a baby and a brat when we meet him, right? Talking about Tashi station. Exactly. And so, like, I think that there are those similarities really help to unlock, ultimately, the contrast. It makes me think as well of one of the real. really powerful cuts in this episode. We have that beautiful framing

after Vell and Cloris leave of Mon alone. A gorgeous shot. Stunning. And what do we call to right away after that? Bix alone. Breathing. And there's not even a scene there.

It's just the visual reminder of what isolation can do to you. And so Cyril is a very isolated character too. Luke was an isolated character too. And I think that's one of the questions that this show is really asking us to take seriously is when can that sense of loneliness lead you astray and how can finding other people who you can align with, who you can build an alliance with, a rebel alliance, or otherwise, just a meaningful relationship in your life

maybe keep you on a better path. Like, Cyril's not a character as far as we know with a single meaningful relationship in his life. The only relationship that we've seen or understand he has is this really toxic one with his mother. So he's striving to forge one here that shouldn't exist. Think about the way we saw him try to make the speech to the troops heading out to Therick. He doesn't know how to talk to people.

And then my impulse is to feel tender towards him because when you watch someone like trying and failing, I want to be like, oh, oh my God, like protected. And then I'm like, no, that's a, that's a, she's a fascist. It's so funny, like I usually really, as you know, Joe and Ben, I'm very inclined toward that kind of response, typically. I haven't felt that with him at all. It's just he's really had me on my guard the whole time.

And another thing I appreciate about this character is that, for all we know, this season or series will completely come down to Cyril in some way. But to this point, you could cut him out of the show, and it would still largely work, right? You know, he's not in every episode. He hasn't really factored that directly into the, core events since what episode three? I mean, you could create a carn free cut of the last several episodes. Cassian could have killed him when he was holding a blaster to his head and just about

everything else would have played out the same way, just without all the breakfast cereal scenes. I think that that's like a potentially really powerful ending for his character is to be eliminated and just wiped away without actually having any consequential bearing on the plot because it helps to reinforce that the empire doesn't care about its own people either. The people who would be inclined to believe in it and sign up for it and opt in. They're nothing all. also. The boot will stomp even the bootlookers, right? Yeah, true. I'm sure some people watching are wondering, why are we watching this guy? You know, why are we spending so much time with this guy? How is he connected to these events? But, I mean, first of all, I assume that he will be connected even more

into Greeley eventually. But I love that Andor has the time for that. Yeah. You know, if this were a six-episode season like Obi-Wan or an eight-episode season like Bando, maybe someone like Cyril gets cut. But with 12, you don't have to trim every non-essential scene. And sometimes that extra detail and context and character and color can really pay off, especially in the hands of these writers and directors. I've written about this before, but I think that's one of the downsides of TV seasons getting so much shorter. You know, prestige TV seasons, usually being six or eight or ten episodes now is good on the whole,

I think, because most stories don't need to be longer than that. And this way you get all-killer, no filler, and hopefully less overwork, and you get greater variety because people aren't tired. up with one show full time. But I think the downside is that when you get something really great that you always look forward to watching, it's over sooner. I mean, I miss watching the West Wing or the O.C. or the next generation and having them beat 22 or 24 episodes or whatever. And all those shows are probably arguments in favor of greater quality control. But if you love them, they were always on. I mean, both of you love Lost. Isn't it amazing that like 15 years ago, the early

seasons of Lost were on like literally three quarters of the year. And then, you know, they take a summer break and be back for more. I look back now and I'm like, how did they do that? But for everyone watching at the time, we viewed it as an event. And it was almost a year-round event. It was just a staple of the week. And obviously, Andor's only 12 episodes, never more than 12. But I feel like that extra time relative to the standard Disney season or, you know, Joanna, the 30, the 30 we got from season six of Better Call Saul. Like, that permits a more leisurely pace that's a blessing when you have a Peter Gould or Vince Gilligan or Tony Gilroy at the helm.

So I'm enjoying, you know, like every seat is there for a reason. Like every line has some sort of purpose, but it's not just the facts. Let's move on to the next action scene. We have some time to just sort of simmer and savor this world. First of all, Lost is my favorite example. An episode of Lost My Favorite Example for Advocating for the 22. episode season. There's an episode of Lost called Trisha Tanaka's Dead where literally the plot is the gang gets a VW van restarted. And it's just those kind of episodes. I mean, the van does come back

and is important later, but like those kinds of episodes where it's like really just about spending time with these characters and loving these characters so that we're buying in later. And I do think that like, you know, we brought up bicks earlier when we were talking about the torture bicks. Like because we know her character from her three episode arc early, and from other scenes, then we know what it means for her to break the way that she does in this episode. And I think, and with Kino Loy,

like spending a couple episodes with Andy Circus' character, whether rather than like a one and done, really helps you sort of sit with that kind of character, which I really love. I also want to say, to your point of like, we could have the carnless cut.

Like, I was surprised when he came back after the first. I thought he was a three-episode art character. So when we follow him all the way down to his mom, apartment. And then we stay with him for the rest of the season. I was surprised. And I'm intrigued, obviously. Like, I wanted to do a whole segment on Cyril Karn, but, like, responses that I got to that tweet of like, what's the deal with Cyril Karn? And there were plenty of them being like, I hate that guy. I don't, I get bored when he's on screen. I'm like, not me. But okay.

I, okay, I don't want a Karnless and or I think it's really interesting. And like, the last thing I want to say is that one of the interpretations of Karn that I thought was really interesting speaking of Karn's private box and his training cards is Cyril Karn is the bad slash entitled Star Wars fan this is like a common reading of like Kylo Wren and his sort of worship of Vader and stuff like that from Shee Hulk or something yeah right exactly so it's like Cyril Karn has literal action figures in his room at his mom's house so like is Cyril Karn a bad bad thing? the bad Star Wars fan, hashtag not all fans, obviously. Malany, thoughts or feelings about that interpretation? Honestly, hadn't occurred to me. I tried to think of how to say this. Like, because Tony Gilroy has been so open about the fact that he basically doesn't care about Star Wars, like, I kind of wonder if that would work its way into his text.

Like, does he think about Bad Star Wars fans? His whole thing with Star Wars is like, I don't. any reverence for this. So I've just gone in and made a story I thought was interesting. I just did this. Yeah. Is this Star Wars? Yeah. Just a last point. I just, you know, it's hard to get in his head. I mean, he has these fanatical, staring, unblinking eyes, but they aren't really windows to his soul. I don't know what's in his soul. And I don't know if he knows either. But I'm with you, I think, Malve, that I would be disappointed if we did just end up with sort of a standard conversion

and redemption arc. And he's like, oh, I had it all wrong. I'm not going to catch Cassie and I'm going to help him because he's the one on the side of Jesse. Yeah. If he turns out to be like Agent Callis or even General Hux, you know, I kind of just. Shout out by Jude Callis, who I loved. Yeah, they're great.

But I just, I want something more nuanced than ambiguous for him at this point. I heard a great theory on the more civilized age podcast where they were talking about, they were talking about in the first season of Deadwood while Bill Hickok gets shot in the street by just like a random piece of shit guy, right? And so they're like, you know, they made a point of Cyril saying he could recognize Luthin's voice. So what if like Cyril shoots, like Cyril deranged because Dendro won't return his phone calls or whatever,

like here's Luton's voice, kills him somehow. So like this great figure is brought down by this little piece of shit, Cyril Karn, right? But then like is not heralded as a hero of the ISB because no one knows who Luton is. and so that he's like branded a rebel. And it's just sort of like the very thing he hates sort of becomes and like just die. And then dies like anonymously branded a rebel the thing that he hated and didn't want to become or something like that.

Bring, bring Luthan's body back to Dedro like a cat carrying a bird corpse or something and just drop it there. And it's like I don't want this. But but yeah, like I think any questions about who Miro was were answered in this episode. But with Cyril, I'm not still totally sure. Like, can he be pulled back from the brink? Does he deserve to be? Maybe to some extent he's a victim of his circumstances and the system that surrounds him. But he's done lots of bad things.

There's a moment on Farix where he just casually shoots at some civilians, some non-humans who just startle him. And maybe it's just a sign that he's nervous and out of his depth. But maybe also he just has a complete disregard for others. And he's just all about himself. And so I kind of, I want him to be. like Ryan Johnson's version of Ray whose parents are nobody's. You have no place in this story.

You come from nothing. You're nothing. That's basically Cassian's story, but he's made different choices. And so maybe Cyril makes his own choices and he ends up just getting wiped away by history here. But the only thing that gives me pause,

I guess, and maybe this is just a red herring, but all the references to off-screen Uncle Harlow kind of, you know, that makes me wonder, do we know Uncle Harlow? Is this a kind of like a Vell is Man Mothma's cousin sort of situation? You know, it doesn't seem like Luthan is a candidate to be Uncle Harlow because they've already crossed past. But could Uncle Harlow be maybe major part of gas or, you know, someone we've met who's in the imperial infrastructure just because we got all these references tossed out. If Kyler is related to Cyril, I don't know if we'll survive.

Yeah. Like, I could imagine that happening. You know, he's pulling strings to get him in the Bureau of Standards. So, again, it could just be a misdirect and maybe Uncle Harlow's nobody. But do we know Snoke's first name? Is it Harlow's not? Yeah. Just kidding.

Just kidding. The timeline's different. Well, thank you, thank you, Ben, for indulging me in Carn Corner. And for all of you for hanging out with the worst, the worst guy we know. Everybody puts Ben in Carn Corner. I'm happy. It's always a pleasure to appear on the program. Wow.

Wow. So Ben mentioned Bell, so let's talk about Vell. Yeah. Good old cousin Vell coming to see Mon. We had some theories about whether or not Vell was connected to a character we knew. It was not Luthan. It was Mon Mothma. How did you feel about this reveal, Mallory Rubin?

It could still be Luton, I guess, too. The way they talk seriously, Vell, what does he have you doing? Who, like, maybe that's just their mutual familiarity with Luthon's. through their rebel network. But who knows? Maybe there's a deeper tie that has led all of them into this shared pursuit.

That was one of the things that I found so interesting about this reveal is like, how, when? Why? Again, like, it's like that net that you were talking about learning, like, how did,

you know, a partisan meeting land to, you know, a signal on Farrex land to whatever. She mentions a vow. We took a vow. Like, What does that mean?

And yeah, and when? How did these, you know, Ritzie cousins from, you know, Shindrella, like, take a vow to join here? The vow language is so interesting, by the way, because I'm like, obviously just always trained to think of the unbreakable vow. And I'm like, how binding is this? What kind of vows are we talking about? Are we talking about, like, a shared pledge that we will do this thing together? Or is there something deeper afoot there? I'll be curious to learn more about that.

But even, like, in Mon's speech at the Senate, I was not to say. That's exactly what I was thinking of. There was a vow mentioned there, too. You know, our second vow is to protect the power and independence of this remarkable chamber and just this idea of a vow and, like, the sanctity of your mission

recurring from Mon in a couple places in this episode. Steve, can we hear that speech from Mon? Our vast responsibility is to the citizens who have sent us here. Our second vow is to protect the power and independence of this remarkable chamber. I stand here today to speak with senators who've come with open minds. Those of you who still believe that when we enter this building, we are in a temple. Okay, first of all, the episode title is Nobody's Listening, Exclamation Mark. Obviously, Cassie and Andor is the person who says that later in the episode,

but this is clearly like excellent background soundfully work on this scene, It's like, listen to her. They're power rules, Rootabagos and Turtips. In the background here, nobody's listening to Mon. But also, when she says this building we are in

is a temple, like, of course, when we hear temple, we think of the Jedi temple. But, like, you know, we have to think about, you know, Mon said a couple episodes ago that she uses her role as this sort of like,

do-goody senator this sort of moderate Dem senator as her cover for her rebellious activities. But I do believe, given what we've seen from her in other places in this story and other shows and films that she shows up in, like, you know, my allegiance to the Republic to democracies as Obi-Won-Gunobi. I believe that Mon believes in the Senate. She doesn't, she knows it's a shell of what it once was. but this is this is her religion, this government, this thing that she was very proud to be a part of.

And the empire has taken that from her. Yeah, I think the temple language is very deliberate there for all of those reasons. Making us think of the Jedi temple and the way that Palpatine and the empire wiped that out, but then also like temples that survived the purge, the way that they pop up in the future over the timeline

and like provide this sense of refuge and possibilities for the Jedi the four-seaters who stumble upon them and find their way inside and what that can unlock for a character like Asoka regarding the Anakin of it all or a character like Ezra, etc. Always so interesting.

And so like thinking of this fits in as well with the conversation we've been having across Paz about where the line is, what the limit is, how the characters are asking themselves that question because one of the things that I really, really loved about the Mon and Vell conversations

in this episode, the way that Vell was saying to Mon here, all of the things that Sinta said to Vell last episode. And this question of, like, if we think back to the conversation between Mon and Luthin and this, like, shock, this discomfort, the Davo of it all in the conversation with Mon and Tay, like, what do you have to accept and welcome into your life

if you're going to go down this path? that awakening, that reckoning is a part of Monmothema's journey in this show, but Monmothema is a character who believes in attempting to restore order from within. And like, you mentioned earlier the parallels across the different character sets. And like, I was thinking of that here too, because we get that is there a more important issue facing this body right now than imperial overreach, which is like, in a way about maintaining and preserving order and predictability in society. it's like the opposite of Cyrils

can one ever be too aggressive in preserving order, the opposite intention, but like the pursuit of those constraints, right? So like how does each side or each person kind of use that idea for a particular end is I think so fascinating here? Someone feeling out their line, especially like with Val and Senta,

that question of, we talked about this a little bit last week, but like inside of a relationship, finding out that you thought you were on the same side of a line and finding out you're not, that Sinta's line is much further than where Vell thought it should comfortably sit. And so for Vell, maybe for love of Sinta, being the motivation to push the line forward for Vell, where is the line in between these cousins who obviously love each other like sisters? You know what I mean?

Like where is that line between them? Are they on the same page about where their line is? And I think that to go forward to that Tay conversation, I think maybe the most important line for Mon in this episode is at what cost. At what cost is the question for all of them. At what cost for Vell, Vell having to leave Sinta, who she's in love with and go play her part elsewhere. Like at what is the cost for all of us to stay true to this rebellion? to join it, you know? And what if the cost, even if it's in the short term,

is the very thing that you are theoretically fighting to preserve and protect. Like your ability to be with someone, your ability to forge a life. They'll have to leave, Sinta. And that idea of like, the empire doesn't rest, mine, the rebellion comes first.

We take what's left. Later, there's risk. There's no other way. You took a vow. It would be still. interesting if that was our introduction to Vell, but it isn't. Like, we've seen that doubt from Vell before. We saw the hesitancy before the plunge on Aldani. We saw that moment at the table in the tea shop with Sinta, like, can we just take a minute to like live in the thing that we're

trying to preserve here? And Mon is a character we see a lot of doubt from here and elsewhere. And I think like we need that in that story. You know, we've talked a lot about this spectrum. And the character who is working through all of those feelings, working through that discomfort is, I think, like, essential. It's not an easy thing for everybody to decide to, to decide to meet with a devo or whatever the case may be, to decide to, like, would it be an easy thing to decide to go live those six months?

But then even characters who are aligned. as family, as people with great affection for each other, as people who have taken this shared vow together, there's so much that isn't said. There's so much that isn't spoken. They don't say Luthin's name out loud. You don't talk about Luthan. Exactly.

Should we sing it? No. No? You don't want to go full Brunho? The details of the mission are not shared. So again, always this tension between the Lutthin pitch to solve. We need to bring all of these different cells together to form this larger whole.

and then each individual faction or person understanding what the danger is of saying a certain thing out loud, sharing a certain piece of information, even in a relationship that we're like very fond of and like to talk about like Tay and Mon, still a few episodes in, I'm like, can we trust this guy?

I don't know. You know, and we're just always in a position of doubt and fear. And I think that distress inside the family is so interesting when you look at Mon and you look at Perrin and Leda and like, you know, she hates her husband, right?

That's true. But she wants a relationship with her daughter and she doesn't have one. And that seems to be part of the cost for her of like she, her daughter doesn't know who she really is, who Mom Motha really is. And so her daughter is just constantly, like, riding her off. And when we've seen that those trio, it's always parent and Leda and then Moth on the, Mom Mothma on the other side of it. And so it's like I was so happy for Mom when Vell's at the dinner table. And like Vell is like clearly team Mon Mothma, right? Like loves Leda, like is a fan of her, but fucking hates Perrin as well.

And when she says, yes, all the good ones are taken. Ironic. And Ma and Motha just gets to like have her little smile in the background. I'm just like, Cousinville move in. So good. Bring Sinta. Yeah. Perrin, total piece of shit.

And also just completely oblivious and doesn't take the time to learn anything about the people in his life, right? Doesn't care enough to learn about who Vell is, which is one of, I think, the really great indictments that you can make. somebody. The last thing I want to say about this, because we do, we want to get to Cassie Dandor in this episode discussion. But like, the last thing I want to say about this is that in terms of that, where's the

line? Yeah. When Mon says, what have we done, Vell? And Vell says, we've chosen a side. We're fighting against the dark. We're making something of our lives. We've chosen a side. And that, like, when you talk about light side, dark side or empire versus rebels, like,

we talk about sides, sides are predicated upon the. understanding that everyone knows where the dividing line is between those sides. And what Andor is telling us again and again and again is that line isn't always clear. That line is shifting. That line is in different places for different people. And that's what makes a rebellion so sticky. All right. Before we get to Narcena 5, anything you want to say about, you know, the Gorsiian follow-up,

which is we find out that the spellhouse job that Luton was trying to get saw in. on last week has been compromised because this rebel pilot that they've grabbed that Gorse is interrogated that they're going to stage the death of has let them know that Anto Krieger's group is going to attack Spellhouse. Anything we want to say about this whole interaction here? I thought you were going to ask if there was anything I wanted to say about Vell asking Mon if she was fucking Tay. Oh, I'm so sorry.

We cannot, we cannot like breeze past that. I don't have enough to worry about. Everyone wants to know. What are a lot? Lita seems very convinced that her mom is fucking 10. Like 100% thinks that, right? If everyone's already thinking it, why not do it?

Let's just make it happen. Mom's like, wherever will I find the time? You know, she should do it just to throw her, like, nosy chauffeur off the track because, by the way, her chauffeur is, like, constantly in the background of scenes and so, like, he's there. Comes right down the stairs after that conversation between Vell and Mon. Yeah. worrying.

Yeah, nobody's listening, except maybe Hershiffer. Yeah, exactly. In terms of Spellhouse, Anto Krieger coming up here, Maya, who was another character who saw mentioned

in his list, comes up here. Again, we have these recurring mentions of different rebel cells, different rebel factions. And, you know, this was on my mind when we were chatting with Ben about like the surprise, the shared surprise, of Cyril continuing on beyond that initial arc,

because I think there are also like some interesting inverses of that in the show where sometimes things are, people, places, moments are mentioned, and then that's it. They're mentioned to give us a sense of the scope of the universe and the story. Texture. Yeah, but like, so I'm curious what you think, like, is all of the spellhouse setup guaranteeing that this will be a part of the final stretch of the show, the mission from the rebels, the empire's attempt to thwart it.

That seems like a very reasonable likely deduction. Do you think there's any chance that it falls into the other bucket where it's like a thing we hear a lot about but never actually see? Yeah, I mean, I guess my rule for that is always if we hear the exact plan, the plan is not going to go according to plan, right? Yeah. This is the rule of heist movies. If someone lays out exactly what the plan is, the plan is not going to go.

So I don't know if we've already heard enough about Spell House's plan. Like with Aldani, I mean, again, I guess that wasn't true, the Aldani job. We got the full Danny Ocean breakdown of the Aldani job and then we saw it. But then it went a little wrong, you know. Danny Ocean. Yes, but I mean, I don't know how to predict that. But what I will say is that Spell House, especially the way it's spelled, like, H-A-U-S, is like, again, shut out these very evocative, like, sort of Cold War, like, there's something so evocative. about the location of Spellhouse.

I would love to see it. I don't know if we'll see it, but I would love to. Agreed. Yeah. Okay, so what about attendant? What about Miro's? Yes, so this is the question. Yeah.

Is she threatened by his efficiency, or is she, or does his good work reflect well on her? Right. Like, when she first goes in and he's like, oh, don't worry. I already said Gorsed out there, she seemed a little, like, displeased. he took that initiative. But when he shows up, when he steps forward at the meeting, BISB meeting and gives the whole thing about Cassian being clean-shaven, and that moment she looked a little like my guy, my team,

my congressional aide, like really came through on this. Oh, really? I had the opposite read. That's funny. Okay. Yeah. Of the two different scenes. Yeah, because, I mean, I think the fact that there are two moments like this

in general made me think that she's like on her guard with this guy. Again, in part, I think because of the part of gas warning, you know, watch your back. like the idea of people inside of the ISB always trying to one up each other and like crawl over each other for their own advancement. But it's a little bit of a piece with what we were chatting about with Ben in terms of the serial digital relationship where I think like maybe the creators of this show know that we're inclined to think that. And that will just not end up being the case. Like there's a subversion of expectation and what we sort of anticipate as viewers. I thought in the

in the conference room and the team meeting when he popped up and offered up the Bix intel about Cassian being clean-shaven and that the rebels on Aldani were clean-shaven.

First of all, I'm like tenuous evidence. Sometimes people just want to switch up the look, you know? Try something new on a given Thursday. But that to me, because it was right on the heels of Partagas pushing back a little bit and saying like a link to Aldani,

that feels like a bit of a stretch. And then she wasn't the one who was able to convince him, somebody else was. And I thought she felt a little bit like, did he just big time me in that moment? Yeah. But again, maybe that's like, maybe they're like playing with our tendency to think that way about people. Yeah. I feel like I have, I have, I move two minds about it. And I'm very curious to see where it goes.

Anything else we want to say about the ISB? before we go to Narcina 5. I just want to shout out. Our guy. Okay, I burn our guy, part of gas. The absolutely hysterical, let's go. So funny.

I assume Steve is going to add that to his soundboard and you said next time we're running over time. Every time we're running over time. So funny. We got this really, so let's go to Narcina 5. We got a bunch of emails about sort of the gamification idea that we were talking about last week,

how it's been a part of sort of sociological the mind of the worker theory for a very long time. But I do want to shout out specifically this email that we got from Nicole that was citing this 2019 book called Accounting for Slavery, Masters, and Management and about how in American, the history of American slavery, some planters would deceive, this is a quote from the book, deceive the enslaved, the enslaved by giving small prizes and overseer began by dividing the hands

in three classes by skill and offering a prize to the one who will pick out the most cotton in each classes by this means they encourage slavery of every ability to increase their pace after repeating such challenges several times and weighing what cotton they pick every night the overseer could tell just how much every hand

could pick. So this idea of game of, because Amazon is like a, because Amazon uses gamification with its workers and Amazon came up a lot when people are talking about this, but the fact that it is like ingrained to the very beginning

of our understanding of capitalist exploitation of human labor, enslavement, et cetera, in our country. It's woven into the fabric of our country. I thought it was really interesting. Interesting is too much of a banal word.

It's horrifying when we think about how we're so much closer to Narcina 5 than we would like to believe of ourselves, you know? And I'm just going to heap horrors on horrors really quickly and just say we also got this email from Kyle. There's this use of free a couple times, Melchie says it, like they set them all free about the level that gets completely electrocuted in this episode. It's mentioned when Ulav dies, the Medtech says, like, at least he's free. So Kyle wrote in and said, we know the empire is based in part of the Nazis given the storm.

troopers. But this recent episode is the best example of imagining the empire's tyranny with the Holocaust, where famously above the entrance to the Auschwitz death camp, there was a sign in German which said, work will set you free. A cruel, ironic joke in that the only freedom will be death. I can't think that that's accidental, that language being used here and the echoes, again, of the real world horrors that we as humans around the world here in America and elsewhere have inflicted on other humans. And again, that goes to our earlier point of, like, first of all, I cannot believe this isn't a Star Wars show.

And secondly, what a great job Andor is doing of driving home, the reality, the brutal reality, and occasional banality of evil, the humanity of evil. Let's talk about Ulaf. What do you want to say, Mallory? Yeah. It's heart-wrenching. Absolutely heart-wrenching. But also, we had a moment last week where we were like,

in this environment, in this context, if one of your team members became a liability, like, what would these characters do? Do you turn on that? Yeah. The search of faith in humanity that I felt when not only did that. not happen. They like, Cassian and Zol like prop

Olaf up using their own bodies to shield and protect him. The show has moments like that that are quick and passing that like tell you everything about the nature of humanity that is at the

center of the story. And even things like the language of, you know, old-timer, Olaf could be the one who corrected them, but he's not It's the people around him at the table, short-timer. You know, the way that Kino and his journey inside of this episode is so riveting and so fascinating, he's such a hard ass and such a stickler in so many different moments last week and at the beginning of this episode because he thinks he has to be that his own survival, his own way out, hinges on that adherence.

But he's right there to remind Olaf that he only has 40 shifts left to tell him that he's near the end that he can, that he's about to go home. Like the humanity has not been stripped away from the people inside of this horrific machine. When he calls him Uli, which I think speaks to the amount of time that they've spent together, familiarity that we weren't like fully aware of last week. I found that little detail so touching. And I think to your point, there's something about this system that encourages a lack of empathy, right? You're in competition with the table across from you. You're in competition with the other levels.

You are fractured and meant to not band together and think of yourselves as one united front. That's the whole concept of this prison. But inside your table, right? There is a motivator for that unity. And with Cassian in this episode, the ways in which Cassian is like, when Keno slightly fractures, before he breaks at the end of the episode, but when he slightly fractures with a sort of panic about the information that is seeping in from the other levels about what happened on level two. And Kassian's like, you know, keep it together, essentially, right?

He needs Kino to keep it together for his own. agenda. Like Cassian as a character, there's a whole idea of a prison break. He needs them to break out of that prison. And my question is, in Cassian's arc, Aldani Cassian, if he could break out of this prison by himself, would he just leave them all behind? Or is there something about this experience in Cassian's life where he needs them to work as a team in order to get out? Is this part of cracking open his empathy towards other people and his ability, his leadership ability because we see him step up. We saw it a little bit in Aldani, right, when he's sort of like calming Nemek and like all

the sort of stuff like that. But like, we're stepping up here into a more leadership position. And that's sort of a function of his own personal desire to escape. I don't know. What do you think about that? It's a great question. I think all of the above, like for me, in part because we've seen Rogue One and nowhere this is going, in part because of the flashbacks we've gotten,

being able to glimpse different slices of formative experiences and moments in Cassian's life. I think that, yes, this is about our understanding of Cassian, evolving and expanding, but so much of the show for me is about Cassian's understanding of himself evolving. Exactly. And so, like, okay, why does he stop on the bridge with Kino to tend to O'Oloff? it absolutely part of that could be and maybe even is that he knows there's a chance then for a conversation.

He knows there's a chance then to gain some sort of intel from somebody visiting from another part of the facility. But also like we think to how tenderly he he behaves toward Marva and like the real worry that he that he shows for like the idea of her being alone, the idea of her being vulnerable. Like, I think he has this tenderness and protective instinct inside of him. And because of the experiences in his life, like, there are moments where you talked about this earlier with the recording and the idea of the empire preying on your instinct toward empathy. Like, there can be these formative moments in your life where that is, where the things that happened to you stifle that impulse. And it doesn't mean it's not there.

It's about you discovering it again. And, like, I think for Cassie and it has been there for the people he's, cares about. Even like, think of the conversation with Bix's last episode where he was like genuinely, two episodes ago, genuinely shocked that people in on Farrix, the people who he grew up with, the people that he knows would turn on him. And there's a part of that that's like, because he can't imagine doing that to them. So I think of a moment at the table, like the one with Tagga, where he suggests the shift. And then Kito comes over and Cassian says it was Tagga. And there's a part of you as a viewer that's like, is he saying that to protect himself in case they get in trouble

for it? But then there's a part of it that's like, he kind of smirks and smiles like, look at this win I just got you. And also now I have a better vantage point to look out the window and scout and gain intel for the mission. So I think all of these are pieces are a part of Cassian's character. Right now, though, I don't think he would leave anybody else behind. I think he would try to convince them to come. And I think it would be fair to say that that would be because it would help him and because he would care about them making it out too. What about you? And that's because of, It's because where he is on the arc, right? Like, with Aldaugh, like, with Aldonnie, like, he doesn't screw Vell over, right?

He doesn't, like, take all the money. Like, he just takes what he's owed. There is that, like, sense of moral code. But when we first meet him, it's like, you've run out of credit with everyone. Like, clearly a womanizer. Like, all this sort of stuff. Like, when we first meet Cassie Nander in this show, yes, there's the tenderness towards of Marva.

Yes, real affection for. for Brasso, like all that sort of stuff. But there's also just this idea of a guy who has chewed through people in his life and run out of goodwill. And as Tony Gilroy calls this, the education of Cassie and Andor, we are in that process. So I see this as a real middle point where he is still personally motivated. And that personal motivation to escape requires that he think of the entire population as on his team.

and in doing so that crack something open in him that is his true nature. Similarly, you're going to hear Andy Circus talk about that, but similarly for Kino Loy, midway through the episode, when everyone's freaking out, there's something really wrong on level two. What happened?

We don't know. We're trying to figure it out. And Kino says, and you're panicking about something that's happening on the other side of the building. Also, that's a them problem, not an us problem. And what Cassing is trying to impart

what Kino eventually understands when he understands the lie that he's been clinging to of this idea of escape, of an end point to this sentence, is that's what they want you to think. And actually that empathy, that leadership quality, all of that is something that the empire is trying to bury inside of you. Yes, absolutely. And let's break it open and see what happens. Yes. If we think about like our first experience with Cassian and Rogue One, we've talked about this a lot,

shooting somebody who is on his side so that he can get out. But it's not just so that he can get out. It's to protect the mission. It's to protect this larger goal. Cassian is a character we hear say. Talk about the horrible things that he's done for the rebellion. He's also a character.

We told you at the top. Spoilers for Rogue One. He's also a character who sacrifices his own life for the future of the rebellion and to take down the empire. And so I think the fact that he is not, he is a character we are deeply invested in and a character we root for in a character, we are watching that education with great interest. He's not on a neat and tidy traditional hero's journey. That's part of why it's so compelling. And I love the keynote comp and

parallel you're drawing because like a line like you want out of here alive, turn that part of your mind off, which is what Kino says when Cassian's asking you. if he ever thinks about escaping, asking how many guards there are, of course, setting up the spine-tingling answer to that question at the end of the episode. Well, what is you want out of here alive turn that part of your mind off akin to?

It's that self-preservation we were talking about earlier. He's projecting here. Like, he's telling Cassie and that because it is the thing that he is holding on to. It's how he's living and managing his own life. And that doesn't mean, that he wants to see terrible things happen to the people in his room on his floor, on that bridge. It doesn't mean that he believes the empire is on his side. It means that he has lived every day,

or in this world, every shift, believing that holding onto that is the only way to make it into the next shift and the next shift and then eventually out of there. And so when that is taken away, you want out of here when the idea that there could be an out, that you could make it out is taken away, then everything changes for him. Because if there's no lie to tell yourself anymore, then the only thing you can look at is the truth. You spoke beautifully in the beginning of the episode

about some of the exquisite filmmaking, TV-making qualities of Bix's torment. I think this ending part of the episode, where we're getting this information from this med tech who has been, like, beaten down, who euthanizes Ulf? And he's like, that is a gift I'm giving him because this shit is about to get terrible and worse

and all this sort of stuff here. There's this really neat screenwriting, directing trick that they're playing here where we've got to guard at the end of the hallway who's like, break it up, we got to go. So as they're sharing information, it's rushed, is hurried, it is urgent. Are we going to lose a chance to get the info that we need here?

What is going on? And then, you know, we get the information from MedTech, and then we get this huge, huge pivot for the character of Keen-N-A. I just want to, like, hear it. I want to hear Andy Circus say it. Steve, will you play that for us? No one's getting out, are they? Not now.

Not after this. At least your friend is free. You two. On program now. Arms on your heads. Move. Let's go. Come on.

Let's go. How many guards on each level? Never more than 12. Shout out the Nicholas Bertel's score there, too. Like, never more than 12. How, like, it is an immediately iconic Star Wars line to me. Never more than 12. That whole scene, the never more than 12 payoff,

the thrill of it, the chill you feel, like, the way your heart is racing in that moment. But the depths of despair that lead us to that point, the Medtech saying, I don't want to know his name. Like, what better way to capture for us the absolute loss of possibility and hope

for the people who are trapped inside of this prison, the idea, the way that I, you mentioned the way that Keno pushes back on the idea that like word could travel that fast. I thought that was so interesting because there's like,

again, this core to that. I think of what they take from you. Like if your ability to even communicate with other people to trust in what you're seeing, hearing, what information is being passed along, if you're like, well, this is already a week old. Like, and a person you'd be turning to for guidance is telling you not to put any stock in that at all. Like, how can you even trust the thing that you've built up to try to facilitate some sense of community inside of that? this oppressive force.

And so, like, there's this very weird and counterintuitive elements of this, where, of course, this thing that they've learned, that the prisoner who left four was brought back onto two, they made a mistake, everybody found out, there's no getting out, you're just recycled into other prisons into your own prison, they fry everybody, a hundred men in that cell on two. There's a little part of that. The bulk of that is, okay, there's no way out. We have to do something about this now.

Let's move to the prison break. And then there's a little part of that that's like, oh, we were able to communicate with each other. We were able to pass a truth that they didn't want us to share. And so there's a restored faith, even amid that horror in what the people there can give to each other, how they can provide for each other a sense of strength and unity and alliance. I am and rebel while they're doing it. We talked a lot last week about Shawshank as a reference. I felt like the flickering of lights that we see, which is all of level two being electrocuted, that is a prison movie. I don't want to say staple, that sounds callous, but like, you know, you think about the green mile or something like that.

Like when a character, when a prisoner is electrocuted and the entire prison knows what's happening because the lights flicker. Like that is so fucking chilling. Anything else you want to say about Kina Loy or Narkina 5 or Cassie Nandar? I think the last thing is just this idea of nobody's listening because there's the wonderful scene and conversation between Kino and Cassian about this, Melshi. Hanging out. We always was saying with Melsci just on the top bunk. Yep, yep, listening, observing with great interest.

The way that this episode and the show at large has exactly. these contradictions inside of the surveillance state is like really, really elevated and supreme. Because when Cassian is saying you're like, you think they're listening, you think they care enough to make an effort or why bother listening to us or nothing to them, it calls back to you and reinforces it builds on so many of the really potent moments from earlier in the show. The Luth and Cassian exchange, their arrogance is remarkable, isn't it? They don't even think about us. They can't imagine it that someone like me would ever get inside their house. Cassian and Nemmic. The empire doesn't play by the rules.

They don't care enough to learn. This is a core tenant of this show's mission. The absolute arrogance of that type of power. The disinterest that you have in the people who you think are beneath your notice. Why doesn't Voldemort know about the tale of three brothers? Because you wouldn't read a children's story. He wouldn't take it seriously. Like this idea of not paying attention to something that you think is beneath your notice and that that could be the vulnerability.

inside of a show with poured and the surveillance state and monitoring and interrogation and the effort constantly to spy and watch and wait and take and take and take. Both of those things are equally true and equally terrifying for the empire inside of this show. And I just think that's like an incredible achievement. Which is why Dejramuro is so fascinating

because she's the one who's paying attention to all the right things when everyone else is starting a blind eye. And so we want to root for her, but we don't want to root for her absolutely because she's horrifying. So one last thing, Mallory is going to indulge me really quickly in like a little Tony Gilroy corner, sort of similar to some of the stuff we did with Tolkien Rings of Power. I decided to watch some Tony Gilroy films, rewatch Tony Gilroy films to sort of see, try to understand what kind of stories he's interested in.

So Michael Clayton, a movie that I loved when I saw, but it literally have not rewatched since it came out. So like I rewatched it this week. Love, love that movie. I watched it like five times when I first saw. I probably haven't seen it in a decade, so I'm excited to revisit it now, but I love that movie. My Tilda Swinton won her Oscar for that movie.

Great George Clutty performance. Great Tom Wilkinson performance. That's sort of like a legal thriller kind of film. And then obviously Tony Gilroy wrote the first, I think, three born movies and then wrote in direct to the fourth. Also favorites of mine. I'm young. Right.

So I rewashed the board identity, but I didn't really need to because that movie is like imprinted on my soul. But I rewatched it anyway. So there's like a couple of things that came through that I wanted to talk about. First of all, so Michael Clayton starts with this incredible Tom Wink is in place, this lawyer who is having a manic episode. So there's this incredible monologue of sort of rantings at the beginning of Michael Clayton that we're not going to talk about right now.

But I just, as an example of Tony Gilroy's writing, I would just really recommend you go look at. luxuried in that whole rant. But there is this line later when Tomulgisson's character, who is a big bad lawyer, who's been doing some bad shit, basically meets a young woman named Anna, played by the Great Merit Weaver, who has, like, the skills have fallen from his eyes. And yes, he's gone off his medication. But also, he's had a moral awakening and a moral reckoning and meeting her.

Steve, will you play this little snippet of a phone conversation that they have? There's like 450 people in this lawsuit. Why are you choosing me? I don't know. I'm crazy, right? That's for sure. I mean, does it really matter? I mean, isn't it what we wait for to meet someone,

and they're like a lens? And suddenly you're looking through them, and everything changes, and nothing can ever be the same again. That line struck me so much as like a thesis statement, almost of like Rogue One, certainly, and of Andor, where it's just sort of like the people you meet, when Cassie and Andor meets Nemec, or when Cassian Andor meets Kino-Loy, or when Cassie andor meets Luton, or in Cassian-Andor meets Jin Erso or Meets Cassian Andor, like, who are these people that will

crack open your worldview and fundamentally change who you are and what you believe and believe in? Mal, do you want to say about that? I think that that is at the heart of the forging of a shared and united rebel alliance here, absolutely. And I think that like the larger Gilroy interest in when you peek through the fog, like, what pierces the fog for you in the first place? And then like just because the fog closes in around you again doesn't mean that you could forget what you saw when it wasn't there for a second. And like, obviously the Bourne series involves. literal brainwashing and programming and training, but in a way that heightens that theme, right?

Like, if you have the ability to unlock that, also a story where having somebody who can help you do that is very central and very harrowing to that pursuit, then there's no, it's not that you always move forward, but it is that there's no excuse for looking back. I'm surprised that you had the restraint to not play the soundbite of our guy Arthur talking about his awakening mid-blowjob. Could have gone with that one too.

I could have. I could have. Two miles one dick is something that he says in that movie. To your point about peeking through the fog and who is there when you do it, I think something that's so key to the born identity and to Michael Clayton is like, are you who they've told you your whole life you are? Or do you have a decision to be someone else? Like George Clooney's character, the titular Michael Clayton,

is this person who is a fixer. for this big, bad, evil law firm. One brother's a cop. One brother's a criminal. And he's sort of, again, in that and or, like, stuck in the middle ground moral gray of, like, doing stuff that is shady, but on the right side of the law, technically, stuff like that.

And, like, the mercenary quality, too, right? Like, I'm the guy you buy. Yeah, yes, exactly. Medico would write about that in his manifesto. I'm not the guy you kill. I'm the guy you buy. But, like, when his brother, the cop says, like, all these cops think you're a lawyer, then you get all these

lawyers thinking you're some kind of cough, you got everybody fooled, right? Everybody but you, but you know exactly what you are. Michael Clayton makes a decision inspired by Arthur, essentially, and his son, and Anna and all this other stuff, to become a more righteous person by the end of this story. And he's no longer interested in being a fixer. We see him, like, go upstate to, like, allegedly help fix him. something for Dennis O'Hare. And he's like, that's not, I'm kind of out of that game.

And he has this incredible moment. It's an incredible righteous moment at the end of the film. Spoilish of Michael Clayton, right? Where he makes the right moral decision. And he says, I am Shiva, God of Death, quoting Arthur, right? Like, I'm Shiva the God of Death. It's such a never more than 12. He turns away towards the camera.

Very Keen O'Leod, never more than 12, and says, I'm Shiva the God of Death. Like I, this is who I am. This, I am choosing. this moral path. I'm not going to be who everyone keeps telling me I am, which is a fuck up. Like, Cassie Andor,

I really do think of these first few episodes, we get this whole like Aladdin riffraff street rat. Like, this is who you are. You're a user. You're a manipulator. You're a womanizer. You're all this sort of stuff. And Cassidy Andor's on a journey.

Even from people close to him, like Bix. Like you scam, you cheat. You leave, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like who am. who am I really?

And like to your point about like when Jason Bourne wakes up or when he, when he, when Jason Bourne is on this journey, Franco Patente's character of Marie is so important. Who, who do you find when you're on this journey? And how different would the journey be for Jason Bourne if it hadn't been Marie, whose car that he gets into?

You know what I mean? And how do you change your hair styles together and or shave your beard and then have Partigaz discover you because of the particular hair dye and or beer shaving? How does Matt Damon give such a chic bob in a bathroom by just sort of jabbing dull scissors at her hair? But yeah, there's the remarkable skill. The part of the end of the born identity where Conklin says Jason Bourne, where he says, who am I? And he says, you're a U.S. government property, you're a malfunctioning $30 million weapon, your total goddamn catastrophe.

And Jason Bourne decides, that's not who I want to be. That's not who I am, right? And so again, I think Tony Gower is really preoccupied, but this idea of, like, can you be someone else? Can you defy the expectations of everyone around you? And the answer is yes. Historically. And yes, and also true for Cassie and her because we've seen Rowan. Two last points I want to make.

One is the Nemex Manifesto. There's this essentially like a D&D or like a Magic the Gathering type book that, Michael Clayton's son has, that's like this red, leather bound red book that then becomes this legal document bound and red that people are carrying around. And so this idea of this like, this book where like Arthur and his manic drug addled Hayes listening to Michael Clayton's son says like, it's happening, isn't it? Something larger than themselves. They're just not ready. Are they to hear it? And this idea of like a big spiritual quest journey inspired by like a D&D magic the gathering-esque thing, this call to adventure, this call to moral purity, centering on

this, like, this text, this book. I, like, couldn't help but think about Nemex Manifesto, which, by the way, I rewatch two episodes ago, it is in that briefcase above that shower and NEMO, so hopefully Cassian's I hope those pages were laminated. I'm still there and is like, doesn't wash her hair every day kind of babe. Like, you know, not a lot of showers, hopefully. So it's still a one piece. Anything you want to say about the manifesto,

the sacred text? Anything like that? Anything about that? I just, I love these comps. I'm excited to revisit, not only movies I love, but these, these Gilroyian through lines.

It's been one of the really, really, I'm sure everyone who's listening to this is already enjoying Chris and Andy's chats on the watch, but one of the things that I've really loved every week is when they break out, like, the word Gilroyian

or, like, describe something as being particularly signature, like a line you could just tell Tony Gilroy crafted an idea. You could tell that he wanted to put in the story. It's really been one of the rewarding things about watching this show, which, again, you know, I'm just fully in. I can't believe it's, can't believe we only have three left, don't ever want it to end. But also, like, genuinely cannot wait to rewatch this.

What a, what a rewatch this is going to be. My goodness. The very last Gilroyan thing I want to mention before we go to our interview with Andy Circus is Tilda Swinton again won the Oscar for this, which is pretty interesting because her character isn't in the movie very much supporting actors, Oscar. But like, her character is so evil. Like, orders murders, all this terrible shit.

But we often see, we see her twice getting ready to, like, give a press conference or, like, give a speech, and she's practicing as she's getting dressed, and we see her practicing over and over again. And again, that's a really, like, mirror thing for me to see this, a villain, but like at a vulnerable sort of like girl boss level, like prepping for the press conference and we're trained to watch this woman like iron her pencil skirt and like lay her hose out and do her hair or stuff like that and practice her speech. And we're like, yes, girl, go crush that press conference. And then you're like, oh no, you are evil. Oh my God.

Like I think that that is something, again, that he is overtly stated that he's interested in, but he is constantly interested in presenting villains to us. I think Krenic is like a pretty close example, too. Like one of my favorite Krenic lines from Rogue One is when he goes, Oh, Lira, troublesome as ever. It speaks to a history that he has with these characters, a familiarity. And so it's one thing to see it, Darth Vader,

stalking around swishing his cape, but it's so much more when you understand Anakin Skywalker is under there, right? And that's what, like, Tony Gilroy is interested in, is excavating the relatable human qualities that are under these, like, horrifying, we employ Dr. Gourst people in this empire. So watch Michael Clayton and the Boren movies and duplicity if you want to, but that's not required watching. That has been Tony Gilroy Corner.

Anything else you want to say before we go here from Andy Circus, Mallory Rubin? Did you introduce him as my precious? Did you resist the urge? Not only that, you could call me bad journalists if you want. I didn't even say the word snoke in this conversation with the Annie Circus. But yeah, Andy Circus, he talks about why he came back. So Snoke is sort of overtly mentioned there. But, like, yeah, Andy Circus, the king of our hearts, the king of, you know, claw himself.

Gall of himself, Snoke himself, here to talk about his great character, Kino Loy. So much of what we understand in Star Wars is this like light side, dark side binary and what I love about Andors we're sort of stuck in that uncomfortable gray area.

And I was wondering if you see it that way and what about that might interest you? Absolutely. It's been a real privilege coming back into the universe. You know, having been in that world, of dark and darkness and the light and and coming into and playing a character which is you know what's so beautiful about the whole and or series and and Rogue One as a basis for that is it's humanity and it's murky dark you know dark but kind of complex really richly drawn characters

but and they feel and all of their they all have foibles and and and and and you know, levels of complexity, which are really interesting. But it feels like an everyman story, you know, and I think that's why so many people really, really kind of locked into Rogue One and find it so appealing. It doesn't, you know,

it's sort of a little way away from that, like you say, the kind of the sharp contrasts and the slightly more operatic. It's all about the, you know, the sort of, I don't know, the kind of, the detail and the tiny decisions that can have huge impact. And the fact that individuals can change the shape of things to come.

And it's just a really grounded story, which I love. In terms of that detail, there's so much about Andor that has to do with the production design, these incredible, intricate little worlds that we're building here. was there any specific detail of the Narcena 5 setting your particular setting that stood out to you? I can't believe they thought to include this little thing, you know? Yeah. I mean, it was a beautifully designed set if very uncomfortable and desensitizing, which is exactly what it was supposed to do. I mean, you really felt like you're in some kind of strange science experiment.

The whole notion of reward and punishment, you know, punishment if you don't work fast enough, being an electrocution reward, meaning that you get, you know, you get flavor in your food, and that is it. That's as good as it gets. But each and each of the cells, and what, again, so the cells were, you know, there are no bars. There's nothing to prevent you from getting in or out because the floors are electrocuted, but the cells had these kind of knife, these forks and plates which were magnetized. You had a food tube which came out of the wall, which, you know, that level of detail was incredible. You, you know, the costumes were just brilliantly designed to make you feel like you had to conform.

You know, just the whole, just didn't get, just took away your identity, really, you know, took away any sort of sense of who yourself, walking on bare feet on these things. the actual factory floor and the mechanism and the detail with which the machines work. And, you know, everybody had to really learn the process of building the parts, you know, for this undisclosed, let's say, a greater piece of machinery elsewhere that they were building towards which none of us, you know, knew what the parts meant. So it was, yeah, the real, the real kind of granular level of detail was extraordinary. and the epic nature of the scale of it, actually, really made you feel very much like a cog in a machine, literally. You mentioned bare feet.

You're obviously so famously such a physical actor, and I was curious when you're thinking about this character, someone who's trying to project whatever little shreds of power they have inside this greater system that they're trapped in. And how do you think, how do you process that physically? Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting one because when you do, when you, when you're walking on metal in bare feet, it just literally the energy gets sapped out of you, which is, which is maybe psychological. But I think, I think everyone felt the same. And so, so, and what I did was, when I was sort of creating the character of Keenoloy, I was sort of thinking back to what life would, would have been like in, you know, pre-incarceration.

And so I thought, well, he's likely to have been, you know, some sort of floor manager or shop steward worker, someone, but he really stands up for people's rights and, you know, he's quite vocal about it and has force and, you know, sort of natural, he's a natural leader in a way and has, he's quite a charismatic leader, I suppose. But actually in this environment, all that is stripped away and he just becomes purely a functionary, although he, and becomes embittered at that, you know, he becomes. becomes slightly more bullish and sort of just is looking out for number one. He just wants to get through his sentence so he can get out the other side. And there's sort of this tough shell of uncaringness about his fellow beings that has sort of become who he is in this environment. He's changed adapted to that environment. And yet, when he then rubs up against Cassian, who actually, who reignites.

in him, this sense of serving others and helping others and, you know, affecting a way of collectively coming together to change their future. It's sort of, that was, that was really, that's his journey, that's his arc and that was what was so wonderful to play was this sudden dawning, this realisation of, you know, finding his truth again for, you know, he actually, yes, he wants to go back to his family, get out and serve his time. But now when we discover that there is very little possibility of ever escaping or ever being released, then he actually becomes more heroic in a sense and releases his and frees his ability to think of others first.

I mean, that's such an interesting part of this particular prison where everyone is, pitted against each other and thus divided and thus subjugated and the journey a lot of characters in different settings in this universe are on is this idea of how do we think as a

united group and what is our goal going forward? And I was wondering when you think about that kind of story inside of Star Wars, does that feel surprising to you? The very political pointed nature of this story

that you get to tell it inside of a Star Wars world? I mean, that's what's so brilliant about these stories, and that's why they resonate and continue to bring people together to gather and watch them, because they do manage to tell such human stories, and we only have to look at the world around us and seeing that happening. Divide and rule is a cruel methodology of and belief system that operates, every corner of the globe. And, you know, in some way, shape or form, by subjugating or by, you know, oppressing in various different ways, whatever power or structure, power system or structure.

So it feels so it feels very modern. It feels very, or not even modern. It's been happening for thousands of years, which is again, you know, which is why again it fits, it fits so well into, into this kind of mythic storytelling and yet feels very contemporary. When you were talking about this setting or this particular character with anyone on the creative side, Toby, Tony, Bo, were there any particular insights that really helped you unlock what you wanted to do here? Yeah, I think it was, it was, it was just talking with Toby and Tony actually, about the sense of being a natural leader who is then kind of

you know a natural leader for good becoming kind of corrupted I suppose and just becoming this shell of his former self and then yeah and then and then and then breaking through that and connecting with when as I say with when his

when he's the person that he's at odds with the most is that then becomes his savior in a sense. And then he realizes where how badly wrong he's gone and how he's thinking in totally the wrong way. So, so yeah, we had those, we kind of had those conversations. And yet we wanted, you know, we wanted him to have, to have power. And, and it almost seemed like he was sort of a bull to a certain extent until you realize why, until he realized why he was acting in that way. So those are the sorts of discussions that sort of unlocked the character to a certain extent.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for the chat. I really appreciate it. Thank you. That does it for us this week. The Midnight Boys, Pugh! We'll be back on Wednesday to talk about episode 10 of Andor.

Oh, my God, I can't believe. We're almost done. Plus whatever else they decide. They want to talk about those brilliant boys. I miss them. And we'll be back next Friday to talk about episode 10 of Andor ourselves. as I mentioned, Wakanda Forever is coming. That's all coming on the feed.

Thanks as always. Jomey and Dinner Run on the socials. Juno Ram Gapal production work. And our guy Steve Holman is back on the habit on the soundboard for Andor. So we will be back next week with the whole team. And we'll see you then. Bye. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy?

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