The Ringer-Verse - Armchair CEO: Fixing the DC Cinematic Universe | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

After the news of Zach Snyder revealing that Warner Bros. will not be continuing his take on the Justice League (04:28), Van and Charles ride off to play a game of "Armchair CEO" to see what they would do if they were in charge of the DC cinematic universe (09:43). They also figure out what they would do with the current slate of DC films and who they would cast in their dream DC projects (22:16). Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. The Ringers Charles Holmes and co-host Grace Spellman present the most notorious new podcast in the industry, the Ringer Music Show. Every Tuesday, they'll bring you the latest news, the hottest takes, and the deepest reporting about the wild world of music and the chaotic industry that creates it. Check out the Ringer Music Show exclusively on Spotify. Into the Ringgivers, the Ringers' Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. You know who you're talking to. It's Van Laith and the host of Higher Learning with Rachel Lindsay and Van Lathan and it's Charles Holmes, host of the Ringer Music Show, but together we are known as The Midnight Boys.

All right, so we're eagerly awaiting the premiere of Loki. You're excited about Logan, aren't you, Charles? It's coming up next month. We're about five weeks out. Am I excited about Loki? Yeah, of course. I'm excited about Loki because the listeners don't know. We got to be coming up with these ideas in the meantime.

It ain't like we can just roll out of it. The reality is that you keep the fucking shows coming, guys, all right? Or you keep the Faggy, I don't know what you were thinking about with this gap. You didn't think about the midnight. Wait, did you just see before we got on? What the, the Marvel What the coming out in August. So, you know, we ain't going to even have a break no more. Is it what though or is it what if?

What if? What if? I'm in Shoeland. I'm in Nike Shoeland. Like, what the? What the? We got what if coming? We got Loki coming.

Hey, we got the Nike Waterburger. series coming out later on. Yeah, what if? What if is coming out? So we're not going to have a break. And that's great for fandom. That's great for us. That's great for everyone.

So on this particular episode, what we are going to do is something that should have been done in actual real life a long time ago. We're going to fix the DCEU. We are going to be playing armchair CEO. We're going to take a look, a very critical look, an honest look at the plans and execution. of the DC extended universe over at Warner Brothers. And at the end, very briefly, we're going to have a little bit of our reactions to Jupiter's Legacy on Netflix.

We're not going to spend too much time on it. Not much time at all. It's like, we're not going to spend too much time on it, right? You remember, I'll tell you what Jupiter's Legacy is like, do you remember when the NBA got locked out? Remember the NBA lockout? So the NBA locked out, and we were so anxious, so anxious for any type of basketball

that we were watching Pro-Am leagues from all over the world. I was waking up like, I ain't gonna lie, man. I'm really excited about the game in Jamal Crawford's Seattle Pro-Am League today. The Drew League was crazy, and you had all of these people showing up to the Drew before you know it.

You're like, oh my gosh, George Gervyn's at the Drew. All the NBA legends, the 50-greatest plays the Dream Team. It's like, anything basketball, And that's kind of what Jupiter's legacy is right now. Juba's legacy is like, it's the minor leagues of superhero shows. I know. It's more so,

it's more so when you were a kid and you were like jacked up off Power Rangers and then your parents were like, I got you to this VHS. And I'm like, it's Beetleborgs. And I'm like, what the fuck is Beetleborgs? Or you'd be watching Teenage Me with Ninja Turtles. Like, next up, we got these shark teenage on roller skates

and you're like, the fuck is this. Well, and it's not this to show because the show has its own source material and it's all right. I enjoyed the show for what. it was. For what it was. But it got into the Netflix thing, some of my issues with Netflix, where I was just a little like, this seems like it was made by algorithm.

Right. But we're not dissing too much. Well, not dissing too much. We're just saying, it's not as good as to Marvel shit. I'm sorry. Love Jumers' Legacy, though. Well, not love, like, warm like. So also be sure to join Mallory Rubin next week for a very special episode with a very

special guest that will be on Tuesday. Now, we have a little bit of nerd news in the Nerd News Minute. Steve, give me the little intro. All right, we're not going to do too much of this, all right? But this does factor into our discussion of the DC extended universe. There are reports out there that Zach Snyder has says that DC is being aggressively anti-Snyder about the future of the Justice League, all right? The future of the Justice League, which to up to this,

point has been cemented in Zach Snyder's Snyder verse. Snyder is saying DC wants to change course in a really aggressive

way and completely re-boot, redo, and extract almost all of his contributions to the extended universe.

Charles, what are your thoughts? I never. I want to be real. I'm never on the side of the corporation or

the man. Shout out to Rory and Mao. You know what I'm saying? Oh, wow. I never like, I'm never going to big size with the corporation. But my problem with this is like,

you cannot be aggressively anti-Snyder if you gave my boy like three movies. Actually, four, if you think about it, if we want to count the non-Snyder cut of Justice League. And I think my one problem with this is that, like, Snyder got what he wanted. He got to finish Justice League. And if we're looking at it,

I don't think it probably did what it need to do. Because if it did what it need to do, money-wise, W.B. would have backed up the Brinks truck. They would have been like, all right, you get another movie. So, like, part of my thing is I'm like, let's be sure we're not, like, weaponizing fandom to, like, be like, all right,

you gave Snyder three movies, he deserves three more. Part of me is a little bit, like, you got your chance, man. We, like, we all campaigned. You got your chance. What more do you want? So, in your opinion, Zach St. I. Justice League, wasn't enough for your

faith in his handling of the DCEU to be restored going forward. Personally, I don't think so. And I also just think like if we're just being real numbers wise, numbers wise it didn't do what it needed to do for WB to be like, all right, we're going to do this. Because like, let's be real. This is all about money. If Justice League was the biggest streaming hit of the entire year, they would have given sight of another movie. They're like, all right, go make another one. So it's your assumption. So basically, you're assuming that it didn't do the numbers they need to do because they're not moving forward with.

That's what I'm assuming. I'm assuming that this was kind of like, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised of like Godzilla versus King Kong or Mortal Kombat were bigger hits on HBO Max than the Snyder cut. Like, it might have seemed like online the Snyder coat was bigger, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're looking at the numbers and they're being like, we don't know even if like another Snyder movie

could do what it needs to do to even make more than Joker. So why would they give them more money is just my opinion? I'm not, this is nothing against Snyder. Even make more than Joker. Joker made a whole hell of a lot of money. It's clearly, it was clearly an incredible movie. Same thing with Aquaman or Wonder Woman, whatever you want to say about quality or whatever.

I think they know which ones are making more money. And if I'm even a suit and we could save this for armchair, I'm being like, talk these three movies over there may double what your movie made. Like what are we talking about? So I think it's partly about money. I also think it's partly about the tone of the films, the artistic vision of the film,

and the stories that they actually want to tell. I think that Zach Snyder's goal and vision for the DCEU was incredibly grandiose. And I think that part of the people who deserve the blame for this, and we'll talk about this, starting in one minute, is WB. Because when you look at Marvel, the films are so varied in tone, but they also have a clear through line, right? And so that suggests compromise and collaboration.

That means that there's somebody somewhere in Marvel keeping the trains on the tracks as far as the larger story. And then there are individual filmmakers who are being given just enough creative license to give these films a separate feeling, right? A separate, a different sort of feeling and, you know, different thematic elements. and all of that, James Gunn would have made a completely different Iron Man movie. Payton Reed would have made a completely different Thor movie. Kenneth Brana would have made a completely different Guardians of the Galaxy movie.

I think the one thing, the one mistake was that they took one filmmaker and they let him craft the narrative and the look and the tone for their entire universe. And I don't know why they did that. But even Kevin Feigy isn't behind a director's chair. No, I more so mean that they let Zach Snyder, have the vision and like the storyline for an entire universe instead of having a group of people being like, this is the plan where, where can Zach Snyder succeed? I think that's the, like, I think Zach Snyder is very talented in a few ways and they just did not put him in a position to succeed. So why would I want to give him more money when I'm not even sure W.B. knows what they're

doing with the DCEU. Speaking of, if it's not going to be Zach Snyder, that is in charge of the DC EU, then you know it should be the goddamn midnight boys. Let's get into it. Give me some of that Shark Tank music, all right? We are now about to play Armchair CEO. They have made us the CEOs of the DC Extended Universe,

and we, Charles Holmes, and Van Lathen, are going to nail, nail, nail, nail, Nell, nil, nil, nil, saw, saw, saw, saw, saw, saw, you know what I mean? This is worse than my lightsaber sound effects. Mr. Fix it. Boom, boom, boom, saw, saw. We're going to fix the DCEU as we play armchair CEO. Okay.

All right. All right. So here's a deal. We have absolute authority in this scenario, me and Charles, to hire fire, green light, any project we see fit. This is TV, film, streaming, animation, whatever. We are now the head honchos. We are the Kevin Feigeys of DC.

Charles, as CEO of DC, what's your first order of business? First thing, we're creating a brain trust. I think one thing that Marvel did an amazing job of in the beginning is they got a bunch of talented directors and talented writers, Kevin Feigey, producers like Nate Moore. And they were basically like, all right, what are the big stories? What are we working towards? What are the big characters that we want to put on screen?

Before we even believed in Black Panther, they were like, all right, Black Panther is on the list. Captain Marvel is on the list. We're going to take the Guardians of the Galaxy. So I would literally like instead of thinking, all right, we're going to pick like a Zach Snyder to have his grand vision. Nah, get the best producers, the best writers,

the best directors, go through all of the catalog of DC. What are your most important stories? And then just start talking it out and just make a roadmap. As simple as that, just go back to the stories. They're so worried about making their own Avengers, competing with the MCU.

I'm like, DC arguably, in my opinion, has better stories pound for pound than Marvel. And they have not been going to them as much as they need to. And yeah, so just go back to the people and the best storytellers in the business. What about you, Van? Let's say we're working together and not against each other, right? So we're the co-CEOs.

So let's say you did this. You know what I would do? I would sit those people down. And I'm talking about a diverse group, of filmmakers, not necessarily diversity in the way that we think are diversity now. I'm talking about diversity of talent, which is the most important diversity that you can have, right?

Diversity matters everywhere, but different perspectives on things are what makes the best stories. Now, you inherently get different perspectives normally when you put diverse people in the room. But sometimes, you know, it's just important to have different people with different perspectives more than it is anything else

if you're talking about the actual health of a particular project. So I'm going to sit down and tell and ask those people one story. We are going into phase one of the DCEU. How does it end? That's the first question. Important question. Are we ending at the death of Superman?

Are we ending Darkside taking over Earth? Are we doing injustice? Do we end a thousand years in the future? Are we ending with Kingdom coming? How does it end? Because what it seems to me that Marvel has mastered, and what any good show or any good narrative has mastered is, the point that we're trying to get to.

It's obvious D.C. doesn't know what that is because their stories are all jumbled, right? They give you the death of Superman, a movie after Superman was essentially unleashed to the public. They give you one film of him, then they kill him. Obviously, that doesn't work, right? They give you Doomsday. in the second movie

where the stakes of who Superman is to the world haven't been fully established, right? Exactly. In Jack Snyers Justice League, they give you Dark Side, they give you the new gods, they give you all of these people when nobody knows who they are.

Like, no one has any clue. We don't know enough to care. You know why you care about your neighbor? You care about your neighbor to the little old ladies because you see her all the time. Like, you know how slow she moved. moving. Like you have to care about the care. So that's the first thing. Okay, so you've

assembled the talent. Yeah. My thing is getting everybody on the through line is this is the, this is the situation that we want to end with. This is where the first phase of this is ending. Now, that binds the movie, puts the movies, puts them together. They can have their own narratives, but this is the point that we're getting to. That would be the second thing. Wait, all right. So, and then third, lastly, I think importantly, after you and bar, on that, I would tell everybody I would get the best artist. I don't care if they're, they belong in the MoMA, I don't care if they're photographers, I don't care if they're cinematographers, we get the best, like the best artist. And we'd be like, what do we want

the DCU to look like? I think like people forget that Marvel movies, they have a way of being like, all right, this all has a similar tone. You all can do your own things. Captain America, the Winter Soldier doesn't look like Guardians of the Galaxy, but when they come together in a movie, it makes sense. And when I watch like Aquaman and Wonder Woman and then I watch a Zach Snyder movie, it's all over the place. It's all like visually, it's all over the place. So I think it's very, very important to be like, what is the tone?

Is it going to be bright poppy colors? Are we going a little bit more subdued? Are we treating these characters like gods? Or we're treating them more like humans? That all needs to be worked out. Let's say that we've done all this. You're recrafting the DC universe, what movie, do you start with? Are we saying we're getting rid of their entire slate right now?

Clean slate, baby. Woo! All right. Clean slate. Hey, yeah. My first movie, the new Teen Titans. I got the writers and producers of it. I'm going with Seth Rogan and Evan Goldberg.

The director is Rob McElney from Always Sunny in Philadelphia and the creator of Mythic Quest. The plot, we got a high school comedy, the Justice League disappears for a weekend and seven teenagers. We got Robin, Kid Flash, Wondergirl, Starfire, Cyborg, Beast Boy, and Raven have to keep the world safe until they return, but they can't help but being teenagers. That's where I started off. What is wrong with the Teen Titans? Tell me what's wrong with the Teen Titans.

You can't start with the Teen Titans. Yes, you can. Okay. That's what people would have said. People would have said to you at the beginning of the MCU, you can't start with Iron Man. That's not true. That is true. You know why?

They wouldn't have said that. They wouldn't have said that because it's a completely different situation. Number one, in that situation, you don't have access to all of the characters. So Marvel couldn't start with Spider-Man. But here's the thing. This is why I'm starting with the Teen Titans. The co-COs are already-ed-part. They couldn't start with the X-Man or they would have.

The reason that I want to start with the Teen Titans, A, for money reasons, it's a, one of DC's biggest properties across media. You already get the kids on your side. But more story reason why is I think we need to break away from the, from the, we're just doing Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman movies. We got to get that taste out of everybody's mouth. We got to start with something fresh and something new. And then slowly but surely once they're back on our sides with something that like it's beloved,

Teen Titans is beloved, but it's not as beloved as Batman. Once we get them on our side with like this property on the side, Then we can really start hammering them home with the Batman, with the Superman, with the Flash, with the Green Lantern. We got to pivot away from Snyder a little bit. That's, that's, that's me. What about you? We're going to be in a CEO fight.

Do you know who I would start with? I would start with the new gods. You're high. You're high, bro. I would start with the new gods. Wait, over the Titans? Over the Teen Titans, I would start the new gods. The only way to wipe the slate is to start with the new gods.

You start with the inception of the DC, of the DC, you universe, right? That's like starting the MCU with like Thanos in the Black Order. You can't do that. But the reality is that if the scope of the characters is going to be, I go new gods, then I go

Superman. But this is what I do with the new gods. We don't need the origin stories of any of these characters anymore. We don't. No. We agree on that. We agree on that. If I am over D.C., I'm never seeing Batman's parents get killed again.

Like we, I'm not, I've never seen them get, but we do, what we do need, though, is to set the foundation, the parameters, the tone, and the rules of the universe and where it all comes from. And I think setting it with the new gods gives the scope a huge, big, galactic scope for the entire universe. DC, the characters are too tricked out and powerful. You can't star small. I disagree.

We got to make the movie. All right. So, all right, what if we do this movie? This is my second, but we could bump it up first. I think potentially you start with a Green Lantern core movie, the Sinestro War. We're not doing any bit of the like introducing the Green Lanterns. We dump you right in. We got Hal Jordan.

We got John Stewart. They have to stop the Senesra Corps War. But you introduce the new gods to the source wall. So you get the teaser at the end that they're all coming. So we're not starting. with like the beginning. We're starting right in the middle of the DCU. You have this big war.

You show people we can do this big, big thing and then slowly bring in the new guys. I could be with that. That could be a compromise. I think that there's enough people who are familiar with the green lanterns, every different iteration of the green lanterns, Guy Gardner, Hal Jordan, whoever it is.

But I would start with John Stewart. He would have to be my main character. How Jordan would be supporting. Well, you could start with John Stewart, but I think it's doing a disservice to the lanterns if you start with John Stewart. To me, it would be a buddy cop film. So it's like, it's a twofer.

So it would be like a John Stewart co-starring Hal Jordan. Okay, cool. All right. So for me, the important thing is to give the people's scope of what it is that they're expecting. That was the thing about Iron Man. Iron Man set the standard for the MCU because Iron Man let you know what kind of world you were in. And if you're in a world where all of these things are possible, this tech is possible. even when you move to Thor,

it's not so much magic as it is science. If you have all of those things, then anything else that you give your audience, they will believe. That's why, rather than start small, right, rather than start kind of like the MCU did, which is start small and grounded and build up to it,

if I was DC, I would do it backwards. I would start raising the stakes with these huge galactic stakes, right? And then slowly come back down to the, individual stories and see how people are navigating these things in their worlds. Number one, to set it apart from the MCU, but number two, in order to just make all of this

shit makes sense. You know what? We made a mistake. I don't even think it's important how we start. I'm going to pitch you on this, on how we end. Two-part Justice League, instead of building like we're going to have Justice League one, Justice League two, we have a two-part Justice League movie. Justice League Crisis on Infinite Earth,

Justice League Kingdom Come. Arguably two of the biggest stories, two of the biggest crossovers that D.C. has ever had. We have Crisis on Infinite Earth to shake up everything. We have every single superhero we have after building it up for years

and then Kingdom Come. We end on the future, Batman versus Superman, all of these, everything that's happening. Like that to me are the two big pillars where you have to end. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this

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Shift your flavor to high gear with new Nass Energy Grand Prix Guava. Hit the street, grab a can and get after it. All right. So we're taking over right now and there's movies in development. Black Adam, the Flash, Aquaman 2, Wonder Woman 3, the Black Superman movie. and Shazam 2.

Do you go ahead with these films? All right, so I have a list. I have a list we're going to go. I have go ahead, recast or cancel. Okay, give it to me. Go ahead with Black Adam. You have The Rock on, like, that's an instant hit. Go ahead with it.

Flash, I would recast. Nothing against what Snyder did. I just think that like if it's not already a hit, we got to go new. Aquaman 2, go ahead. It's too big. It's too big of a movie. We're already moving in China.

like they love Aquaman over there. We go ahead. Wonder Woman 3, go ahead. Black Superman cancel. Shazam 2. I love the first Shazam. We got to go ahead. And then this is where we agree. You got to revive the new gods. You got to bring back Eva. You got to bring back Tom King.

Okay. So these are the, this is what I would do with this. Black Adam, yes. The Flash, yes. The only person I think that is untouchable. Untouchable to recast is the Flash. Really? What about Jason Momom? Jason Momoa. There's other people that could do that.

He's great. I don't think so, man. I don't think there's other people. He's beloved, man. By the way, to be honest with you, if I'm being real, these three characters are where DC has nailed it. Actually, the casting of these past things,

I had no problems with. I enjoyed Henry Cavill of Superman once he got his stride. I liked Gal Godot as Wonder Woman. I like Ezra Miller as Flash. Oh, I see too, but you don't think, we got a clean, Slate, man. If it's not working yet, and like, that, that, that movie's

been in development hell for a minute. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but that's more, that more speaks to the dysfunction of D.C. than it does, actually, whether or not he's good at the character. I'll give you this concession. Let's keep Ezra. But I do think that, like, casting-wise, I'm not mad at Ezra. I'm not mad at Jacea. Okay. So this, I'm not mad at any of these. So this is what I do

with these films. Number one, push the slate back on every movie except for Flash. We agree. Flash comes out. Flash point rejiggers everything, gives you the clean slate, and then you start over. I go, Flash, new gods, then Black Adam. That would be what I would do.

Flash, New Gods, then Black Adam. Because I think that Black, that reintroducing Shazam is easier through the Black Adam deal. The Shazam movie was really good, man. Zachary Quayzamb. went to was great in that. I enjoyed the Shazam movie, but the problem with the Shazam movie

is that it was an orphan. It was a movie that didn't, and there's nothing wrong with orphans, by the way, please, guys, when we're doing the podcast, it's so many times I do a podcast and I say something, and then I'll go,

there's nothing wrong with that. Of course. I mean, orphan in the sense that the movie itself kind of was in the DC universe, but then it kind of wasn't. It existed in this almost quirky,

how does it relate to other things, type of sphere that made you keep asking questions about all of this stuff is going on. Why isn't anyone else showing up? If it's not broke, don't fix it. That's my thing, man. Like, it's like, we're doing a lot. We're shaking the tree a lot.

I got to keep Zachary. I'm keeping Zachary Quinto, but I'm rebooting. I'm using Black Adam to reboot Shazam. All right. As long as we're keeping Quinto. Oh, I'm definitely keeping Zachary Quino. Oh, wait. So can I ask you?

Sure. We know what we're working towards with Justice League. end. But Batman Superman, give me the storyline. What are the two meaty storylines that were giving people to really grab on? I have my Superman one already. Okay. My Superman one is All-Star Superman. Oh, same. Same. All-Star Superman is the greatest Superman comic. I don't know why they won't just do. They just like just do All-Star Superman and shut out. It's like, tell the people what happens in All-Star Superman so they know. Minor plot spoilers for All-Star Superman. Skip ahead a bit if you wish.

All-Star Superman is this comic by, honestly, top five comic writer of all time. Grant Morrison, top five comic book artists of all time, Frank Quigley. And basically, it's this story that travels from the past, present, and future of Superman. And it kind of shows his death, but it also shows why he's like an eternal symbol throughout the DCU. It's so hard to explain because it tells one story, but each issue is its own thing. It's telling one narrative, but you're learning who Superman is when he's a child, with his dad dying, with having to reignite the sun. That's the big impetus, like having to reignite the sun and teaching you that Superman is forever. And I think if we're talking about how do you nail the correct version of Superman, all-star Superman is the way you go.

Why do you love it as like a comic book? Because it tells the story of a human god, which is what Superman is. And they make Superman a one-dimensional character, and he's been a one-dimensional character in film for a long time. What he is is a gentle god. They make him a gentle god. They make him... This tells the story of a human god about somebody who's a superhuman in physiology only.

The most human thing about Superman really is his mind. Like his mind, he was formed just like one of us. And All-Star Superman gives you all of that. And I'm just crazy. I don't know if these people read comics because if you ask anybody about Superman, you can even do Superman American Alien, although you wouldn't do it because Max Landis wrote it

and a lot of people have feelings about Max now. But there's a lot of different things that integrate Superman into his world much better than these movies are. I also think that with All-Star Superman, what you do, like, guys, you cannot start with Lex again. If you start with Lex again, I will literally jump off a cliff. Give me Lex, give me Parasite, give me Brainiac, give me his whole rogues gallery at once.

I think in terms of like proving how powerful Superman is, you just got to throw everything at him. And it's not really a story about villains. It's a story about Superman. But like really dive into the mythos because I am tired of them trying to make a realistic Superman. You know what I'm saying? The DC universe is not going to be realistic. It's fundamentally different than Marvel universe. So it's done.

I would like them to give it a Thor Ragnarok feel. Like, let's stop trying to do the realistic version of Thor. Just give us the Jack Kirby version, you know? So here's the thing about Batman. I don't give a standalone Batman movie for a while, if ever. I'm not doing a standalone Batman movie because over the course of the last, I know, 30 years, we've gotten, what is it, six, seven Batman movies. You know what I mean?

Something like that. So I'm not doing a stand-alone Batman movie for a while. I'm going to treat Batman like Marvel treated Iron Man after Iron Man 3. Batman is going to be a central character

in every movie, but I'm going to make him essentially what he really is. Tony Stark really is the Batman of Marvel. And I'm going to make Bruce Wayne the Tony Stark of DC.

Not with the same tone. Those are two completely different characters, even though Tony Stark in the comics is not this comedic wisecracker or whatever. He's a little bit more. But I'm going to make Batman the guy who Wayne Enterprises pops up in everything. Batman pops up in all of these other stories

because remember, gods are fighting now. We've established that. We're starting off with the big thing. Gods are fighting. So we need the huge. human perspective in it, the through line to that human perspective in my movies are going to be Batman. And if Batman gets to a point to where we can take some of this stuff and give him a standalone movie based around one specific story, then we'll do it. But as far as just an origin

story and Batman fighting in Gotham, I don't think we need that again for a while. So I'm going in the opposite direction. And instead of treating Batman as a solo star, I'm building out a whole corner because I think the coolest thing about Batman is he has so many allies. So what I want to do is I want to start off with a Batman and Robin movie based off the Grant Morrison run. Bruce Wayne is still in the cow. It's going to be Dick Grayson. But then we can get a Nightwing movie. We can get a Batwoman movie. We can get a Batwoman movie. And what you're starting to do is instead of thinking as of Bruce Wayne as like this solo star, I do think you treat him as a Tony Stark character where he's teaching Robin how to be Robin.

He's teaching Backgirl how to be Backgirl. He has all of these different characters coming in and out. So Batman movies, instead of being solo movies, damn near our team-up events. When we get a Batman movie, it's everybody on fucking death. At some point in the history of comic books and comic book lore and comic movies, we're going to have to be honest about Batwoman

and Bad Girl and Robin and Nightwing. We're going to have, me and you are going to have a CEO meeting. what's going to be an honest discussion about the other members of the bad family. Don't say what you're about to say, man. Don't break my heart. The reality is that nobody gives a fuck. You're high.

What? Wait, what? Like, nobody fucking cares. Like, nobody cares, bro. Stop. Like, no, nobody cares. Nobody cares about Dick Grayson, Tim Drake. Nobody cares.

They might care a little bit about Dick Grayson. Stop, man. They might care a little bit about Drake, Tim Drake. You know who I care about? If we do it, I want to see Damien Wayne from the jump. No, the most interesting character. Damian Wayne from the jump. The reality is if we build up to Damian Wayne, it's going to take too long.

How about this? Let's give the audience something they've never seen before, rather than give them the Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, fucking Tim Drake's story that they all seen, give them Batman's cloned son as Robin. That's a take that the casual fan doesn't know and we're trying to do some new shit.

This might be a midnight court. This has to be a midnight court because Batman has one of the best, not only Rokes Gallery, but one of the best supporting families. You're telling me nobody gives a fuck about Dick Grayson. Nobody gives a fuck about Barbara Gordon. No one.

That's what you're telling me. What I'm telling you is that. Committed, no, commit it. Don't backtrack. I'm not backtracking at all. I'm telling you, make them movies, people are going to be waiting for Batman to show up. That's the thing.

Batman's going to be in the movie. Like, people are going to be waiting for Batman to show up. Like, it's... Why can't we have a Gotham Knights show? Why can't we have a Gotham Knights movie? You can can. But what I'm saying, you can definitely have a Gotham Knights show. You can definitely have that.

You can do all of that stuff, right? You can have all of that, right? Even Birds of Pray. Birds of Pray works because Margot Robbie made Harley Quinn such a thing. Yes. Right? And so to, to me, And I'll be honest with you. Harley Quinn is a much more interesting character

than any of the characters that you just named. Whoa. Let's stop there, all right? Very true. There's a reason Birds of Pride did not work. Birds of Pride was good. Birds of Pride was not good. This is worse and Prade was not good.

Harley Quinn is nowhere near a better character than Dick Grayson or Tim Drake or Damien Wayne. Any of the Robbins. Maybe she's better than Jason, but there's no way. It's a more compelling character. She's not a more compelling character. They don't know whether she's a hero, whether she's a villain. They don't know. Maybe you're right.

Maybe she's not a bitter character, but she's more fun to watch. I like Dick Grayson. Yes, she's more fun to watch. I like Dick Grayson. I really do. I was into Nightwing, but we have to stop the cap as if people care about Nightwing, Barbara Gordon, and the Red. There's been like two or three successful Teen Titan shows in the last

decade. Calm. No, I'm sure. I'm not saying I didn't say the Teen Titans. That's them all together. But that's led by Robin by Dick Grayson. The Teen Titans I give you, sometimes. Some iterations of the Teen Titans have Damian Wayne in there. And they're bad. They're bad runs.

Right. We're getting, we're going to have, we might need to have a midnight court because your Batman takes are terrible. I am the Batman fucking master. No, I'm the Batman super fan. And you coming here and being like, Harley Quinn's better than Dick Grayson.

Nobody gives a better foot massage to me. I'm the foot fucking master. I'm the bat fucking master. I was reading Batman before you are fucking born. And that's true. And you're out here on the Harley Quinn squad. I hate it. But I would give Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy a movie.

That needs to be greenlit ASAP. Okay. All right. All right. So cool. We've decided which characters that we're keeping, you're keeping Margo Robbie? Yes?

I will only keep Margarabi if she gets a Poison Ivy movie. That's the only way I do it. What do we do with Zach Snyder? Personally, I love you, Zach. I love you, man. I need to give some new, some new energy.

I need to get some new director, some new writers in it. You got three movies. Most people don't get three movies. That is a type of privilege because, like, yeah, man, I love you, Snyder. I love you, my man.

But go make some more zombie movies who are brilliant at that. Is that harsh? Zach's done. Zach's done it for our CEOs. Yeah. And here's the thing. It's not that I didn't like it.

Like, this is the way that Zach wouldn't be done. If I could get Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffett and Bill Gates to get together and give us like $3 billion, then I would just tell Zach to go and make his version of everything just because I'm curious. Seriously, if I had money to burn, I would want to see the. the movies just because I'm curious about where he was going to go. Like, I'm legitimately curious. I would do animated movies, HBO Max. I'm like, you can do all of, you can have your own Snyderverse.

It's going to be animated. We're like Jason Mamoa, gal. They're creating our movies. But yeah, finish your thing on the animated side. I do like animated. I like animated too, but I wouldn't give Zach Snyder to animated movies because I like the DC animated universe too much already. I think that's the part of it that they're actually getting right.

But I think Zach had his tent. his time. Army of the Dead is fucking amazing. And so because of that, I think Zach Snyder's tale and story as a filmmaker, he doesn't need DC anymore. He'll go do something else. He'll be fine. But we got to start it over.

Zach Snyder's out. All right. Can we, for the audience, can we run down which movies we're greenlighting? We've been disagreeing a lot. So, well, like, which ones are a go? It doesn't even matter what order. We both agree we're adding a new. gods. I think we should do Green Lantern Seneschore. I think we've got to do it. I'm

taking my money as CEO and I'm doing Teen Titans. Do Teen Titans. He's got to fit into my my larger story. Do Teen Titans if you want to do it. It's not your larger story. It's our larger story, Dan. It's, I'm the story guy. I would do a Lobo movie. All right, I'll give you a Lobo movie. We're going to do a Lobo movie.

We're doing All-Star Superman. We're doing all. So we're doing L-Ban. Can you give me Batman and Robin? Give you, give me Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin. I'm with Brad. Graham Morris is Batman and Robin. I'm with Grand Morris and Robin. We'll figure out the story later, but we're going to do a Batman and Robin.

Not at first, though. We're going to let the whole line breathe. Are we doing, do you agree? Are we doing crisis on infinite earths and kingdom come? Is that where we're ending? Yeah, that's where we're ending. We're ending there, but those are Greenland. Yeah, those are greenland.

That's where we're ending. We're ending on crisis and infinite Earths and that stuff. So we're getting like way down there in that, okay? Way down there. Are there any other movies we forgot that you're like, we're green lighting these tomorrow? You know, a plastic man I'm going to do. You're going to do a plastic?

Can't we make that a TV show? I was just about to say. We can make Plastic Man a TV show on HBO Max. There's only one other character that I think D.C. is already done there. I'm going to bring back is Constantine. Justice League Dark or Justice Constantine? Justice League Dark. We're greenlit. Let's do it.

You got low. you got Justice League dark. I'm actually going to do Justice League before I do the Justice League. No. I do. I do. I'm going to do Justice League dark before I do the Justice League. Because I personally think you need to set up

all different types of powers and all different types of stakes in these universes so that when the Justice League comes in, Justice League Dark is there. Justice League's dark to me. They're the guardians of the galaxy of the D.C. universe. But you have to establish the Justice. No, you don't because we fucking know who they are.

We've been knowing who they were ours since we're four years old. I'm going to give it to you. You gave me Teen Titans. You gave me Batman and Robin. You gave me All-Star Superman. I'm going to give you this. I'm going to give you this. So then my three movies were what?

They were Lobo, Justice League Dark, Plastic Man, HBO Max series. Who plays Lobo? Good question. I've been thinking about this. I have one for you. I have one for you already. You got to get Vin Diesel, man. No.

What? No. Ben Diesel is fucking 50 years old. Have you seen a picture of Lobo? He's not a young man. But what I'm saying is we need to, we need somebody to play the character for 10, 15 years. So we can't cast Van Diesel, have a 60-year-old lobo running around breaking his fucking hip while he's riding on his bike. He had a 6-year-old.

I don't know. No, actually that's what happened. We stopped him before he got to 50 because he started when he was fucking 40. No, before he got to 60 because we stopped him when he got to 40. It can't be somebody too, too, young. You know? And to be rude with you, I haven't been able to find it if you were. This is a coup.

This is succession. I don't know if we can clear it legally, but play some succession music for me. We're getting you out of here. You old man. Old man, Van, out of here. I'm taking over the company. Why?

You don't even know who you want to play Lobo yet. I don't know who I want to play Lobo yet. I looked around for it. The actor to play Lobo is not around for me yet. Oh, what's his face? Roman Raines. Roman Raines would be fucking perfect as Lobo. He would be a perfect.

See how we just, if he could act. See how we just worked together? Yeah, we would be pretty good. See how we just worked together when we're not trying to fucking kill each other? Okay. The Lobo movie, I'm going to let Blumhouse produce it. You're on a roll.

I fucking love this. This is amazing, yes. I'm going to let, so as far as the Lobo movie, I'm going to let Blumhouse produce it. Jason Blum and his people are going to take over the Lobo movie. The director, they're going to dig up somebody who's really good at this. stuff. I'm not, but I know that I want Jason Blum because I want it to be funny slash gory

slash engaging. We're going to R-rated tray off the top lobe. All right. So as jumbled as this was, this conversation was as jumbled as the DC universe, by the way. But all the all the Aeroverse stuff, just before we go, all the Aeroverse stuff stays as a separate thing. CW. We're keeping it over there. They can do whatever they want to do. successful, but we are not touching that. They're successful. I'm not touching it. Not doing anything. My HBO Mac shows

are going to be Plastic Man, and I personally would do the Teen Titans show on HBO Max. Don't do my people. I would do the Teen Titans show on HBO Max. That's what I would do. I would do the Teen Titans show on HBO Max

and then maybe give them a movie later. I'm doing my HBO Max shows. I'm going Gotham Central. I'm going Secret 6. just real quick, we don't have that much time left. Give me your opinions on Jupiter's legacy. I love the art of the comic. I just think personally, it's a Netflix show for better and worse. I watched it and at parts I was entertained,

but I just do think that after a summer where we've gotten like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, we've gotten Wanda Vision, you know, we got invincible. It just didn't give me that, like, that last thing that I needed. You know what I'm saying? That was my issue with it. What about you, then? It was cool.

I think Jupiter's legacy is cool. I think I always like hearing takes on other comic book mythos and stuff like that. I like Jupiter's legacy. I will tell you this. And this to anybody jumping in a superhero game right now, you got to bring it. You're adding material to this in the golden age of superheroes. Talk on it. Speak on it.

So you really have to bring it. And there are little things about Jupiter's legacy that stick out and break the deal. Overall, it's something to watch. Not bad. It's a nice Friday night. Like, if you ain't doing nothing Friday night, like, I would boot it up. I think you would enjoy it.

I was entertained. My girl was like, oh, what is this? It's just, like, I don't know if it met the quality standard of the stuff we've been talking about on the midnight boys. You feel me? I don't think that it did either. I don't think that it did either. But that's not to diss the content.

Everybody's stories are coming out. We love them all. Look, guys, I hope we were able to give you some clarity. on what we would do with the DC EU. It just seems like we just threw out a bunch of ideas. But look, that's what they do. We know different from them. We don't differ from them.

You know, the shit is hard. But the reality is that this, D.C. can be fixed. They have to think big by thinking small. And they have to hire us. They have to hire us. Take all of these big characters and give them small human narratives that people care about. All right. Look.

We're going to keep coming up with the content until Loki gets here, guys. We're going to end up talking about next podcast how far Mr. Fantastic could stretch at his max. We're going to do a whole pod on it. This is funny. Until then, I'm Van Lathan. I'm Charles Holmes. Charles. You got an outro for us.

The other side of the pillow was cool. The midnight boys know their role. You better stream the ring of Earth. And what the hell did he do to Jay Cole? Woo!