The Ringer-Verse - 'Avatar: The Way of Water' Reactions

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

Sullys stick together! And so do Charles and Mallory as they discuss the long-awaited sequel to James Cameron's groundbreaking CGI masterwork (02:21). They discuss what works best and what to take away from this holiday blockbuster. Hosts: Charles Holmes and Mallory Rubin Social: Jomi Adeniran Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Productional Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, this is Rob Harvilla from 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, the world's greatest loopy and perverse and inaccurately named music nostalgia podcast. We're doing 90 songs now because there's too many songs. Pearl Jam, JZ, Jewel, YouTube, Cher, Hootie. These are just some of the names people yell at me on the internet because we're back. More great songs, more rad special guests, more loopy perversity. Join us once more on 60 Songs That Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together,

peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus.

Welcome into the ringerverse, the ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I'm Coke baby Chuck. She's Mechaina Mal and we're commuting with the Tree of Souls for the movie event of the year. Mal, how are you feeling? Are you excited to go to a tropical oasis for an hour? Charles, I am delighted to be here with you in the crystal blue waters. hanging on the reef. I'm waiting for our guy,

Paya Khan, to show up so that he could take us on a tour of the shiny, clear abyss. I'm so excited for today's pod. So, but before we get into it, we have programming reminders. This Wednesday,

the Midnight Boys return for a very contentious midnight mulligans where we re-rank all of our movies and TV from this year. On Friday, the House of R does Ringervverse recommends

And then next Wednesday, it's time for the most important night in nerd culture. That's right. The Ringervverse family is getting ready for the third annual versies where we bestow top honors to the best in genre entertainment. And you know how y'all can stay plugged in to all of this good content? You follow us on socials, Insta, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, hashtag save Jomi's job. Now, with all that out of the way, Mal and I are about to discuss. Avatar, The Way of Water. Steve Arino, can you please?

This sounds crazy. You have spoiler warning for Avatar. I know. Can you run the spoiler warning, Steve? We're getting ready to talk about Avatar, the way of water. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming.

All right. So, to begin our reactions, I'm doing many midnight manifest today because there's not much to manifest, But Avatar, The Way of Water, directed by James Cameron, screenplay by Cameron, Rick Hoppa, Amanda Silver. Avatar, The Way of Water, is a direct sequel to 2009's Avatar and features Sam Worthington and Zoe Salada reprising the roles as Jake Sully and Atiri. The film also stars Sigourney Weaver, Kate Winslet, and Stephen Lang. Rod Tomatoes, 78% critic score.

And we have a very high 94% audience score. And in its first weekend, this is actually amazing. Avatar Wavewater made $435 million between domestic and the international box office. And for the plot, we're going to keep it light. So Wavewater picks up a decade after the previous movie, Jake and Atary, are now parents of three biological children, an adopted child, and a human child named Spider. When humans return to colonize Bandora, they bring along Avatar versions of Colonel Miles and his team of Marines who are now back from the dead. and they are tasked with hunting down the Sully's. On the run with his family, Jake decides to start a new life with the Mekhaina Reef people.

A group of Navi evolved to be one of the, to be one with the water. As the Sullys navigate their new surroundings, they all come to terms with the impending war mounting between the Navi and the humans. Now, without all that out of the way. Now, I'm so interested to know, what was your relationship to the original Avatar? Are you an Avatar head? So, I think that my relationship to the original Avatar is probably similar to a lot of people's relationships to the original avatar.

And of course, as is always the case, mileage may vary. I'm sure that for many people, Avatar is the most important movie and, like, genuinely transform the way they thought about cinema and life itself. For me, when I saw the movie when it came out in theaters. How many times?

I loved it. Once in theaters. Okay. I thought it was revelatory, visually awe-inspiring. And then didn't really think about it a ton again after that. I think in those early days,

it was very present in our collective consciousness as this, like, Titanic Achievement. And I watched it a couple times at home after that. And then I was thinking when I revisited it last week to prepare to see the way of water, that it's distinctly possible. I have not seen the first avatar in a decade, which surprised me because it's a movie that,

even though like from a story perspective, and I think that this is something that will be a theme of our discussion today, the distinction between the awe of the spectacle and frankly the pleasure of just the hang and the vibe, the story tentacles didn't entwine with my tentacles to form that bond, that next level bond,

in a way that like led me to just kind of think about the characters and what they were up to in a way that maybe I do for other franchises that I'd love to return to. And yet, Pandora is a great place to hang. And I do feel like in the Avatar universe, those two truths, while they seem contradictory, can actually exist at the same time. How about for you?

What's your relationship to the original film? I was probably in high school. Like, when it came out, it was like, yeah, it was just such a cinematic achievement. I remember it's seen it two or three times in theaters and just being like, whoa. Oh, wow. Okay.

And then to your point, I don't think I've ever watched it again. So, like, I booted it up. And first of all, I did not remember the original plot to Avatar when I rewatched it like a week before. I was like, wait, this is what Avatar is about? Like, I was just, it was a weird. Shout out on Obtenium. Yeah. I was just like, what's Unubtenium?

They're just like, what is this thing? Yeah. Okay. And then I will say I went into my rewatch of Avatar, expecting it to be very, very cheesy. not have, like not aging well. And I was still transported. Like, I was still like, oh, like, I remember why I really like this movie.

And it primed me to be excited for a way of water in a way that I, to be honest, wasn't. I wasn't like, oh, man, I can't wait for a sequel. But the minute I turned on the original Avatar, I was like, oh, no, I do like this place. I do like Pandora. Were you also surprised? I thought weirdly, even though it's made in 2009,

the movie still weirdly looks pretty good. for that time. Yeah, it's, so I really, I had the same experience. I really agree that I was like, I think in terms of just fandom and, you know, our jobs talking about this stuff on pods all the time, I was intrigued to see a way of water,

but it wasn't, it wasn't like one of my most anticipated releases of the year. Joe and I, when we did our most recent hype meter, neither of us had it on our top 10 for this coming stretch and actually like took a moment to talk about. how kind of weird that was, right? How notable that was.

But when I rewatched the first movie, I was like, man, I'm excited to be back on Pandora, but also in tandem with that excitement, just so interested to see what James Cameron has done and what the weight led to, because that's another thing. Charles, I'm going to mention something that you may or may not have spent any of your recent time

thinking about the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Do you ever just take a moment and think about the fact that almost, not actually the entire, but almost the entire MCU has existed between these two Avatar movies? That is astonishing. That is astonishing. But have you also thought about like when I was watching Wave Water and also the Avatar? I was just like, the way we make these movies has changed so radically because of the

MCU, it was kind of weird seeing 2009's avatar in the way of water and being like, oh, this is almost like a movie out of time in a lot of ways. And that's not to say it's dated. It's just, it's a different type of action movie. It's James Cameron doing what James Cameron does. And I was just like, I was, it was like a weird thing where I was just like, oh, this is not necessarily in conversation with the Marvel movies in any real way. Like, they're two parallel tracks. And that's not good or bad. It was just, it was like, interesting. watching these movies and being like, oh, this is actually how we used to make action movies.

It is very, I don't want to see cliche, but way of water, storytelling-wise, has a lot of things that I was just like, oh, I've seen this before. This always works in a way where I'm just like, oh, interesting. Are you big James Cameron head, though? Were you big on Titanic Terminator?

So I think irrefutably, James Cameron is responsible for some of the biggest achievements in movie history. I'll shout out here our pals over at our sister pod the big picture. Sean, Amanda and Chris did a James Cameron movie ranking

in the back half of the way of Waterpot. And it was particularly fascinating because they genuinely could not decide how to order the top three. Could not decide what the order should be

between Titanic, T2 and aliens. I won't spoil where they eventually landed. I will just say that I think it was emblematic of the fact that he's responsible

for some of the defining tech innovations, some of these defining milestones in terms of how we think about what an action movie, or more broadly, just a blockbuster, a seismic blockbuster can be. By the way, if you want to hear more about all of those

incredible cinematic achievements and milestones, you should listen to Alan Siegel's wonderful oral history of James Cameron, which you can hear on the big pick feed. You can read the oral history on the ringer.com. What a great website. Our guy, Steve Allman, never heard of them.

produced the pod. T2, obviously, like, an all-timer, aliens, incredible. Titanic, I've probably seen Titanic in the theaters more than any other movie that I saw in the theaters, just because I was at that age when it came out when I was in middle school. What's the rough estimate on how many times you've seen Titanic

when it was in theaters? Somewhere between five to seven times in theaters. This is, wait, what? Yeah. I mean, that movie came out when I was like a teeny bopper. You know, I was in middle school, and it was just like, every kid in Reisterstown, Maryland, saying I need you, mom and dad to take me back to the theater so I can see Jack and Rose again.

But like, in terms of the James Cameron of it all, I am, I'll say a couple things at once here. I am not a movie technology expert, nor will I at any point in this podcast claim to be. And so the things that James Cameron has achieved, his obsession and fascination with the ocean, the mocap, the underwater filming, the 3D, the high frame rate, like all of this, I am kind of from like a scholarship perspective genuinely interested in learning

about the way that he has made the way of water and more broadly the way that he attempts to level up for every movie he makes. And I think that the fact that he has only made Avatar and Avatar the Way of Water since Titanic. Like since 97, the only movies that he's made

have been the two Avatar movies. And we're talking about 25 years and we know that there's a whole franchise coming here, right? Like this is going to, there's a five movie plan. The third movie is already filmed. They filmed it in tandem with Way of Water.

Cameron has been very open about, and we'll talk a little bit more, I think in a few minutes about the box office of it all. He's been very open about the fact that the success of this movie, will have a bearing on how many of those future installments we actually get. But we're talking about Avatar dominating the back half of James Cameron's directorial career. And that's a fascinating thing, I think, in the context of his achievements as a moviemaker and a filmmaker,

but also the point you were making about, like, is Avatar in conversation at all with the larger superhero trend? I think of it as like the larger like IP trend. The fact that's something that when it came out in 2009 felt utterly singular and distinct and is so specific to this one person's vision and guiding hand. And obviously more broadly, the like the stories about how James Cameron

makes his movies are like fabled, right? Yeah. In ways both like astonishing and like, like alarming. And the fact, fact that this is now like another IP machine is just so interesting

to be because it's like there's a part of me that is genuinely really excited to return to Pandora for a third time in a way that I didn't think I would be before I saw the second movie and then a part of me that like wonders what the larger avatar machine looks like and even means when it is so much about the experience

of being there and watching it as opposed to the text of the plot and the story itself. I mean, that's a good segue to talk about the box office, because I've been thinking about, to your point, like they already have the third in the can. We're most likely going to get a third movie.

Fourth and fifth, up in the air. Right. So it makes $134 million domestically, which is shorter projections, but makes $4.35 million globally. Right. I was one of those people who was just like, who wants a second Avatar movie?

And just in my life. Yeah. We get screeners. We get to go. We get to see movies. I have never gotten more people asking me. My thoughts on Avatar, what they think about it. My girlfriend has never asked to go to a screener with me.

And this was the only time she's like, can you ask if I can come with you? Interesting. And I was wondering, is it one of those things where it's like, it's so hard to get somebody into Star Wars if they don't have a nostalgic childhood love of it? Because you're like, all right, where do we start? All right. Like how much of this is like, Star Wars is amazing. It's one of our best myths. But it's also like you have to come to it at the right age.

Like if you're too old, it's just kind of like there's a lot. Same thing with the MCU where it's like, if you didn't start with Iron Man, I can catch you up. I just don't know. Right. But here are the 30 other movies you need to watch. Yeah. But with Avatar, it's just like, oh no, we could go on Disney Plus and watch. I remember this.

I love this. A part of me is thinking even though it fell short of projections, do you think there's a part of this? movie's success that might just be that it's like it's one of the rare IPs you can just jump into where it's like you only need to see one other movie that's it and during the holidays yes grandma could see it dad could see it everybody's like even if you've forgotten what happens in the first one doesn't matter with this one you can just sit down and be like cool this looks amazing i i think it's a great point that i had not considered the barrier to entry is i mean ideally you want to the prior film. And I, as an obsessive completionist, would certainly advocate that people

watch the first movie for seeing it. But I guess, like, technically you don't have to. You know, there are even inside of this movie, there are, and I feel like I, like, have, like, a shiver down my spine saying that, because it's just so contrary to how I like to approach this stuff. But technically, you don't have to, like, inside of this movie, you get the very handy. We love a video log for that download. Like, catch a son. remind us where we get Jake Sully catching us up on his time with with his family and the kids and who these new characters are. We get the Quarage video log download of how the antagonists have come back into this story. All of these beats are covered pretty quickly in the first stretch

of the film. And then the bulk of the runtime is the hang. I think the bigger barrier to entry for people is probably actually that runtime. And so I think, and listen, let me say, let me say a couple of things. You will never hear me, ever hear me say a thing is too long. I wouldn't dare. I would frankly not dare to have a gall to say something is too long. Is Avatar the way of water too long? I didn't think so. I know that'll shock you to hear. I didn't think so. Like, I was actually surprised by, because I love a long movie. As you. know every time there's like a six episode, a six episode season of TV. I'm like, why wasn't this eight or ten episodes? I always want more. We won't, we don't need to get into the runtime of

some of our house of our podcast. That's not relevant. I love to spend time like living in a world and and sharing it with other people who are interested in it. So the one of the few times that I do ever like get antsy about it, whether something is too long, is just when I am sitting in a movie theater because on the one hand, I love the communal experience of seeing a movie together. On the other hand, Charles is the thing you might know about me. Very rarely enjoy leaving my home. Love to sit on my couch in my pajamas with my cat and my comfy fleece blanket and just watch something at home.

And so I thought, oh, boy, like, how many snacks do I need to bring with me? Are I going to have to get up midway through and do some hip stretches? I'm old now. I get lower back pain. I couldn't believe how quickly the three hours and 10 minutes went by because I was just genuinely enjoying staring at the screen, I do think for people who are considering seeing the movie, and this is why there are a couple reasons why I wonder if,

even though that opening, on the one hand, like you said, the opening weekend, total global is like a big number. It's the third biggest, but per variety, it's the third biggest global opening of the pandemic, but it is also simultaneously, as you noted, short of the domestic opening weekend projections,

and there's this looming, this movie needs to make X to break even, which I'll circle back to in a second, conversation. You know, there's a great stretch of our pal Zach Barron's awesome profile of Cameron and GQ, which lays this out, quote, the way of water was expensive to make. How expensive? Quote, very fucking, according to Cameron, who told me he'd informed the studio that the film represented, quote, the worst business case in movie history. In order to be profitable, he'd said, quote, you have to be the third or fourth highest grossing film in history. That's your threshold.

That's your break even. End quote. So that means this movie needs to make two billion. It needs to the two billion threshold to break even, of course, the first one made $2.7 billion originally and is now at 2.9 after its re-release. But that's also the highest grossing movie of all time. It's a very different time for theater going. We so often see with these big tentpole films, the opening weekend number, and then the falling off the cliff, right? And I, with the caveat, again that I am I am not like our pals at the big picture an expert in box office science and studies. I would not be surprised at all if this movie bucked that trend

for a couple different reasons. One, next week is the holiday week. And I would not be surprised at all if a lot of people who are interested in seeing this just made the time calculus of saying, why not wait one more week to go see this with my pals, with the family, whatever the case may be on my own, over the holiday at a more leisurely clip.

And also, this movie, and like our pal, Sean Fennessey, had a tweet about this that I'm paraphrasing now, but it in essence was like, this is the rare movie that you genuinely can't spoil for people. You alluded to this earlier, right? It's kind of tough to have a spoiler warning for the way of water, where the plot is in so. some ways,

incidental to the experience of the film, I don't think people are going to have that seem like, oh my God, I don't want my Harry Stiles stinger spoiled for me on Twitter on Thursday night at like 3 a.m. compulsion. You're going to just want to go have the experience of watching the way of water in the theater or you're not,

but there's not necessarily the day one drive for people. I guess the flip point to that is pretty clear, which is like people have been waiting since 2009 to see another avatar movie. So if that wasn't enough to drive you to the theater on opening weekend, maybe nothing will be. Which of those do you think is more germane? This is going to spoil kind of my first reactions to the movie.

But the reason why I'm not worried about the box office as much is because watching this movie, my first reaction when people were like, what did you think? Yeah. I never had this reaction where I'm just like, just go see it. Go see it in Dolby, go see it 3D, like, just go see the movie.

Whether, like, we will talk about some of the challenges of the movie, maybe some of the story things that don't work. But this was the rare movie where I sat down for three hours. I never checked my phone. And I was just, like, kind of like slack jaw at the vibes. You were transported. Yeah. I was like, oh, this is beautiful. Like, I didn't think of anything besides being there in the movie in that moment, just watching this unfold.

just the sheer beauty and scale of it where it's like, I got to turn my mind off where it's like sometimes when I watch like a DC movie or a Marvel movie or Star Wars movie, there's always that like, wait, how does this connect in and we know this and how does that connect? And this was like, oh no, I don't. I just want to see, especially when they get to the water,

I was like, oh, I could just be here. Like a lot of that runtime is James Cameron being like, all right, I'm just going to cook for an hour. you are just going to vibe out with me where you're going to see some whales, it's going to be worth it. And that's probably like in terms of like my enjoyment in the theater,

besides Top Gun Maverick, that hour of just being underwater James Cameron was probably the most fun I've had in theaters. And I've been telling everybody that same thing. I'm like, Christmas, just take your family.

It's three hours you're going to love it. Everybody's just going to be happy when you leave. What were, like, when you walked out of it, did you have a similar, like, I just, you're not expecting, to be bowled over by the beauty of this big thing. I really agree. I think we had similar experiences.

Like I was so much more gripped by the movie than I was expecting to be. And I think another through line and theme of conversations among our pals on fellow pods in reviews of the film, just the general narrative around it is like the strand of doubt big gym at your peril, right? a lot of people have had that experience where it's like, wait, oh, I'm surprised by how, by how, like, rapturous this experience was, wait, why am I surprised by that? And those are kind of the two beats of response. Now, I think, again, like if, to be clear, when I'm sitting in the theater watching this, I'm not thinking about the box office at all. But I do think that the conversation heading into the film was so much about what it took to make it, all of the innovation and invention. Do you need to see it in 3D? Do you want to sit and watch something in 3D? What does the movie

need to make to break even? That like that aspect of just the pure pleasure of staring at this thing on the screen had almost receded from our collective conversation in a way that in hindsight now is like a little strange. But of course all of these things are entwined in the larger conversation around the film. I, that middle stretch that you're talking about, the way of water. The way of water. I just was like astounded by. I would have happily sat there and watched that for 10 hours. The vibes are immaculate.

Like, they're amazing. Oh my God, the Tulkoons. I just want a Tulkoon pal of my own. It was so gorgeous and visually. resting. And if you divide the film into three acts, there's kind of that first stretch of plot mechanic catching us up on where we are, the story beats, etc. Then that middle act, the second act, is learning about the way of water, experiencing this new culture, this visual splendor. The third act is action, war, battle.

set pieces. And often when we're talking about these huge movies, and of course, there are movies that this is not true for, but often we're all like, man, I was so into this for acts one and two and then act three just let me down. This is a really rare inversion of that, I think, where that middle stretch, that second act was for me, and it sounds like for you, far and away my favorite. I would then say the third act, the battle, was next because it is just awe-inspiring. Like, if you are interested in action filmmaking at all, the spectacle of it is so gobsmacking that it's difficult not to just be wowed, even if you're like, wait, why is Spider rescuing the villain of the movie? Is he going to tell his lifelong friends and found family and

companions about this? Got some thoughts on that. We'll talk about that later. And then that opening stretch, which is typically the most grouping and successful in a film, was far in a way the least interesting to me in this movie. So I think that like the thing that I am most likely to do is just revisit the middle stretch of this movie in the future just to look at it. Like do you ever just boot up like an 8K YouTube nature video and stare at it on your screen? No, that's the thing I do sometimes. Yeah. What's your favorite nature?

What's your favorite nature locale to boot up? Oh. I don't know if I could pick a favorite. I mean, I love any kind of like really high-deaf close-up of animal life. Like if you could see every feather on a bird or every luminescent scale on a lizard. Just incredible stuff. I do really enjoy anything underwater. So again, I don't know why I'm so surprised that I enjoyed watching this movie.

I've never plumbed the depths of the ocean trenches in a submarine like James Cameron. But I do like the ocean. I do think the ocean's really cool and I can stare at it happily forever. I love spending time at the ocean. You know what I like to watch? I like to watch the honeycomb. Oh, sliding.

I love the honey. Soothing and wonderful. So one of our pals who shall remain nameless, it's Steve. He's on the Zoom with us right now. Had seen the movie before me and described it as like a three-hour nature documentary.

and I was like, I'm more excited for the movie after hearing that than I had previously been. Just hanging out on Pandora and seeing, because I think when we talk about world building, which is obviously paramount to what is necessary to like create and forge and expand a universe that people understand. Like we always talk in stories about how you have to establish the rules of the universe. The rules can be anything, but you have to establish them inside of the world that you've built. And like from a story perspective, I think like so much of what's, James Cameron has done in the Avatar franchise is, like, connected to archetypes, as you noted, that are very familiar to us. And the particulars, the thing that feels utterly authentic and

specific to the Avatar universe and to the vision in his brain, this thing that started with this dream he had, like, I loved reading in the friend of the ringer, husband of Amanda Dobbin, Zach Barron's great GQ profile of James Cameron. I loved an amazing piece. Everyone should read it. I loved the part where James Cameron was describing his dream. and like waking up but just literally drawing this picture when he was a 19 year old. But like that's the part

that I think pulls me back. And so again, for the future, I'm like, I can't wait to see more of it, but also what is the story for three more movies? I don't know.

I guess we'll find out. A lot of stuff about brain fluid, I guess. So that's where I want to get into the story of this because I think that there's two types of storytelling that are going on

where I, I think we all really, really loved Andor because that's world building on the page where it's like through dialogue, through relationships you are learning about things that have never been considered about Star Wars. And to give Avatar the way of wet water a lot of credit, it is the perfect example of like show don't tell

where instead of it being in the script, Cameron is using CGI like Picasso or like a great painter to show you like, okay, no. When we go to the reef people, visually you will see without me saying anything to you, how these people are different, how the way they live their lives is different, what that means for the Sully family,

the animals, you can understand so much about the world by the way the animals are designed and how they connect with each other. That part of the story, the actual what you're seeing on screen, I'm like, amazing. On the page, I laughed at various parts

that I wasn't supposed to laugh because the way of water is very much like an 80s family movie of like, all right, we're packing up the kids, Dad got a new job, we're going to a new town. All the teenagers are getting in the kooky hijings. There was so much about the movie

that I do think is primal you can relate to, but was also like, sometimes Jake would turn to like Natiri and say something that like a 40-year-old man from Wisconsin would say he was just like, hey, she's just tired from the long travel.

And I was like, what are we doing you? And that's where I was like, I love this movie. But if I stare at the story part of it, to what you've been alluded to, I'm like, not only is this so similar to the original Avatar, it's like, what if it was Avatar, but now the protagonists were like middle age and had kids and were just like going along with that?

And I'm like, okay, interesting, interesting, might be a little clunky in the wash. What did you think about the actual story? of Way of Water. Yeah. Like when I said earlier that the plot is in some ways incidental to the experience of watching the movie, I think that maybe sounds like more of a condemnation than I mean it to, though it is, I think, definitely true.

And the mapping on of the second movie's plot to the first movie's plot is like, it's difficult to be wowed by the story beats when they're so familiar to us not only because of the archetypal nature, but because we explored so many of those elements in the first film, they're just subbed. So you could take a couple different examples of that. Like you have the McGuffin of Unobtainium in the first. movie. In the second movie, we've got a few different McGuffin-esque plot mechanics to explain the return of the sky people, to explain the presence of the humans, to explain the return of

Colonel Miles Gorge. On the one hand, you have this just vengeance-leadden desire to kill Jake Sully to stop the insurgency. Why do we want to stop the insurgency? Enter E. Falko to the Aventure. Loved it squealed in the theater. I was just like, what? Same. I was like, wow.

To explain to us that, you know, we learn, of course, across the exposition stretches of the film, that Earth, and we could certainly glean that from the first movie that things were heading in this direction, not going to be inhabitable for long, not going to get it done. And so even though a large part of the first movie hinges on the fact that human biology is not compatible with the atmosphere on Pandora, the humids have decided to claim Pandora and make it their new home. So I guess this like

terraforming prep and conversion of the planet so that human beings can eventually breathe the air is like something that we're going to be spending more time examining. And then the third MacGuffin, this is really the most direct one-to-one sub for the unobtainium,

is the brain fluid from the our beloved Tolcun. Kuhns, yeah, this Amirta, which we have one line. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I am forgetting

other lines. One line in the movie. There's only one scene about it and there's one line in the movie that is in essence. This golden elixir stops human aging. Yes, they explain it once and then the

whole time I was like, wait, so unobtainium, not important anymore. They're like, the guy on the ship is like, fuck that shit. It's not important. This gold goo, that is the elixir of life, is actually what is like, we're here for. And then I'm like, but wait, if Earth is dying, then are people trying to live longer on a dying planet?

Is it so that like when they are in cryo space transported to Pandora, their bodies don't a, like, I'm like, what is happening? To your point, there's a lot of... We don't know the answers to these questions, because it's... it is genuinely not like an area of interest for the film, which I think is emblematic of this larger distinction we're making between the effectiveness of the story and the just like immersive nature of the universe.

Now, we can play out some of those story beats and play out the string and say, okay, well, unobtainium isn't necessarily as valuable of a resource anymore if you're not trying to enhance and rectify and repair our energy conduction on Earth because Earth is no longer inhabitable. So you want to come to this new planet. Thus, you need to eliminate the insurgency led by the guy who understands your way of life as a Marine, as a human, as a member of this RDA mission previously, et cetera. And then when we

get here and the themes of like imperialism and colonialism that are present in the franchise, take this planet away from the native inhabitants. We want to be able to enjoy it forever. And so we're going to take this golden brain fluid from these beautiful creatures who share this incredible bond with the with with with the the the people and have this high intelligence and compose music and have community and like all this incredible stuff and so that gets us back to awa and everything we explored in the first film this idea of like the the like ecological elements of the story the environmentalism, conserving the resources and communing with the natural world around you rather than trying to strip mine it for your own end. I think when I think about the story of Avatar,

it's much more impactful to me thematically than it is in terms of the particulars. And again, like the world is so specific. So it's like it sounds like more of an indictment than I even mean it to be. But like, on Uptanium, this new Tolcun brain fluid, those particular things, the brain fluid has some real bearing on the third movie, it's less about them than just the larger idea behind them, which is the human beings will always want to take something of value away from somebody else. Like those larger themes are what he's interested in. And so that larger theme of family and community is very, very present and central in this movie.

And like, I'm curious to ask you on the family front, like, who would you say is the main character of the movie? Because we meet all of these new kids. Do you think one of them is, would you argue? one of them as the protagonist? Would you argue that there's no true protagonist? So the younger, the younger brother, I think Loweck, right? Yeah, yes. I would say that he is the closest thing to a central figure in this new movie. Which was weird to me, because it's like still Jake Sully is thriving a lot, but Lohawk

his relationship with his, with his Toll Koon, the relationship when he gets there, he does the very goo-goo eyes at like the Brintzac. Like, just everything in the movie, you're almost seeing it through his eyes. You're seeing the, the Mechayana people through his eyes, how weird this is. And that's another like one to one between the films, right? Because Jake in the first movie, we got all those lines about like, you're like a baby, you're like a child. And then here, when they, when they join the reef clan, it's like you were like babies. You have to learn everything about our new way of life. And that's true for all of them. But you're right. We see it through the eyes of the children much more so, yeah. And it's, and I think, I want to ask you

about the children because I in my normal life nieces and nephews children are the best they're so fun children are very touch and go for me in movies where I think uh some of the children in this movie I like a lot so I want to ask you can we rate the vibes of the sully children from worse vibes wouldn't want to hang out to best and let's start from worse to best I think worse for me coming in at number five is spider uh I'm excited Spider just as from the, you know, the white guy dreads to him saving his war, hungry father at the end. There were so many moments where I'm like, Spider, my man.

Like, even when he led them up to, I forget what the aliens are called, they're in the first movie. The, the, um, they fly on them. You know the lizards that fly? Oh, the, uh, the mountain banshees, the, uh, the mountain banshees, the E-Kron, yeah. The E-Cron? Yeah.

I was like, why are you letting these... I know. Violent Marines bond with these beautiful creatures? I know. I just had very terrible vibes for me. Who is your number five? Oh, has to be Spider. This is an easy call.

And, you know, there's something interesting. And we, you know, we issued the spoiler warning at the top. Again, we've mentioned many times. Not a ton that you can really spoil. This is one of the few, I would argue, like, actual plot spoilers, which is that he is quarridge's son. Quaridge from the first movie, the Stephen Lane character, had a kid

and this is the kid, and he got left behind because, and again, we've only seen the movie once in theaters, we don't have it to check the exact quotes, but I believe I'm paraphrasing close to correctly when I say you can't put babies in cryo dip shit. Honestly delivered with such

such a big year. So funny. So funny. But so the fact that spider has been brought into the Sully family. I liked. And this idea of... Jake called him a cat, though, which I was just like, this is really mean. You called a human child.

So highest praise. But he's like explaining how beautiful all his other kids. He's like, oh yeah, and then there's spider. He's kind of like a cat. He just wouldn't stop following us. And I'm like, whoa, man. So mean. Jake, you know, Jake still has some learning and growing to do. That's my note on Jake in general. the idea that like the that the the the sully children you know there was like multiple moments in the movie where we were reminded of the number of fingers that they have this like visual signifier to other navvi that they are they are different they're distinct and like hearing locke talk about that at certain points that like even his own people see him as alien was I thought compelling and so spider being a part of

this family unit kind of like enhances that, right? This embrace of, of the distinct. The fact that Spider, now on the one hand, in fairness to Spider, and that'll be the only time I say this on this podcast. Sure, yes, he was, he was captured. He was taken prisoner by the avatar that in head, that, that, that housed the consciousness of his biological, human father.

It's not great. It's not what you want. Had to be tough for our guy, Spider. However, as you noted, there are an astonishing number of moments throughout the film, especially given the establishment of the relationship between Keri and Spider, that even inside of this larger family unit, they have this, like, real bond and affection for each other, where I'm like, my dude, you can't tell that this thing that you're doing is going to lead to harm for people you care about.

I know we're going to hit some theories at the end, but because we're talking about Spider now and we're talking about toughest hangs among the kids, and he is clearly the recipient of the Toughest Hang Award and the Worst Vives Award, I'll just give you this right here. The only explanation I can think of for the fact that he saves Quarge at the end

is that he will eventually have a heel turn. Like we're establishing this torment inside where he's feeling this pull. to his father, but also this still very clear love and affection and desire to be with and protect his Sully family,

the idea that a person who had lived among the Sully's lived among the clans, now various clans of Pandora, knew their ways, spoke their language, understood their customs,

could feed that information to RDA, to the humans, which is what Jake was initially embedded to do. Yeah. Kind of feels like the point of the spider character, right? Like, that's where we're heading maybe as soon as the next movie, the spider he'll turn. I mean, I get the point of it. It was just like, he's so, it's just, he's so annoying. Every single time he was on the screen, I was just like, this is a little boy doing the

thing to other humans. But I think I'm going to jump to my number one because I think we've been like talking about her. I think number two has to be has to be too. Because I love Tuk. She's so cute. But also she got captured way too much. I'm like you get one capture in this entire movie.

If it happens two or three more times, we're dang you. I loved Kiri. I think Sigourney Weaver did an amazing job. I would love to, like every single time they were bullying, the reef people were bullying Kiri, the children. just like, you guys are so mean. Leave her alone. She just wants to chill with nature.

And, like, everybody's like, you're different. We hate you. I was like, guys, Kiri is so, like, precious. Would you leave her alone? What did you think of Keri? I loved Kari. Loak and Keri were my two favorites of the kiddos.

I really did like, it's a one A, one B for me. It's a race to the finish here because I did really like Loak and respond to, particularly the way. that he communed with Paiacan and found his sense of like peace and purpose in the way of water and like wasn't resistant to embracing something that was that was new to him like really

sunk in quite quite literally I guess to like this other culture and these other customs and allowed himself to like embrace them I thought was like really neat and particularly because he hasn't lived up to the like golden child standards. of his older brother and has this, like, less easy rapport with his father inside of this, like, Sully Stick Together, very fast in the Furious saga. Like, it's all about family energy of the film. I thought that, like, his relationship with Jake was one of the more compelling. But yeah, Kiri, okay, and this connects to the point from a few minutes ago about how you can

really just, like, swap one thing from the second movie onto the first. Jake is the chosen one in the first movie, right? Like this fact that he can become the writer of the last shadow, etc. And now Keri is

clearly the chosen one, the new chosen one. She's the one who, you could tell. They were telegraphic it so hard where I'm like, Immaculate Conception, I understand.

Like, I get what you're doing to do. There's this real like mid-a-chlorian Jesus stuff going on like that we used to talk about it with the with Anakin with the prequel films like this connection to ayahu the all mother you know basically this universe's version of a deity in this very like spiritual aspect but like the force right this connection between all things everything

comes from aywa everything returns to aywa in the first film we see grace's human form and avatar form connecting into the physical surface of Pandora. And we've learned through Grace over the course of the first movie about this like neural connection across the planet. And so like my assumption is that even though Grace wasn't saved, that something happened there with Ewa. Impregnated? I think Ewa, it's going to be like Ewa or Pandora itself was just like.

Yes. Like, Kira is literally, yeah, exactly. Like the child of Pandora. Now, I will say, while that could be interesting long term and while the character clearly worked for both of us, again, in terms of just the plot mechanic, the, it's not like full on somehow Palpatine returned, but like somehow Grace's avatar body had a baby.

It's like, wait, what? when you're watching the movie for the first time, it's actually really confusing. And then over the course of the film, you just kind of settle into the, well, this is the reality of this story and then the kind of like immaculate conception, I'm assuming eventuality of it.

Like I think probably is the takeaway that most people had. But yeah, like again, thematically, this character who just feels like an outcast, his idea of being an outcast is so present in the franchise. And so like the protective nature that like her siblings had,

this full embrace of Kiri as a member of their family, this desire to fend off the bullies and the people who don't understand her, was like really sweet. I thought that the movie had a sweetness and a tenderness that I was like genuinely touched by. While also there was like the kind of like part of my brain that was saying, wait, why do none of the women in this movie

like have anything to do? It's so clearly like a fathers and sons movie that Nateri is really. pretty sidelined, particularly compared to the first film. And then you're like, wait, Kate Winslet is in this movie as Ronal, who's like barely present in the film. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein.

every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection. Flu like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today.

Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfaira Radio.com. This episode is brought to you by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep-fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borishead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it. presenting the friars turkey breast only from boar's head. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite.

Borshead committed to craft since 1905. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious.

Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. So I want to ask you, this is, I think this is definitely a movie. about fatherhood made by Big Jim who is like by all accounts I think he loves being a dad

but he's been like divorce he has a lot of kids and I think this is a movie you make when you're just like my obsession with making the biggest most technically gifted movies of all time have maybe not made me the best father

I don't know if that is but there seem to be some subtext in this I like I like movies about fatherhood they make me cry all the time but I was like I was like why are the mothers like

just there to kind of further the plot. Like, Natiri does nothing for most of the film. And then she's just brought back to be the angry mother trying to protect her kids, where I was just like, I feel like this is, it's a weird place to put Natiri because rewatching the 2009 film, I had forgotten how much she is,

how much she does, where it's just like Jake is like, Jake is learning for so much of the movie. Natiri is really the one who being like, oh, no, I'm good at everything. So it was weird watching this movie where I'm like, no, Jake isn't supposed to be as good as Nateri at a lot of this, where it was just like, we see Jake shooting guns,

we see Jake leading. And I'm like, why is it Nateri doing all of this? Which it, and even to your point with Rinald, I'm like, why is, like, what is she supposed to be doing? Why, like, it literally seemed like he created a character who was supposed to explain why the Tulkun were so important, was explaining how much the mean to the reef people. and then just recedes into the background where I'm like,

this, I can tell a lot of men wrote this. Because I was like, guys, moms are way more nuanced than being either being like, isn't life precious, but also I'll kill you if you threaten my kids. I'm like, I don't know about this. Yeah, it's definitely strange. So, okay, on the one hand, I agree with you. I had a similar experience where rewatching the first one, I was like, oh, yeah, Nateria is so central, not only just in terms of like TRT,

you know, literally how present she is in the movie. movie, but her role as like the guide, the tutor for Jake. But like, even inside of the first movie, I was like, man, the patriarchy is real on Pandora. Like, this guy, Jake Sully, comes in and he gets to be the leader,

not an interior? Like, what is that? Oh, my, I have some notes. I think that's the ultimate sin of, like, the first movie, where it's just, like, Jake is learning how to be a Navi the whole time. But the minute they make him the leader, I'm like, guys, what are we? It's very, like, Luke is the chosen one because he needs to be the chosen one, which is like, I like Star Wars, but there is a certain level of just like,

this man learned how to be a Jedi very, very quickly. Well, and so, like, okay, you look at the theory in the second film then, and we have many, many moments. where we and Quaric and his new avatar form linger on the yellow feathers of Niteri's arrows. And, you know, Natiri's arrow firing towards you is like one of the more, oh, wow, yeah, watching a 3D movie, yeah, kind of moments of the theater-going experience. But on the one hand, I think the intention of that is like reminding us that Niteri is just as much of a thwarty. as Jake is, right? Just as fierce and formidable of a warrior, which is true, it was hard not to think

like it almost like had to be there in this movie because she's like not in the movie otherwise, which is definitely a bummer. So I think then when you get to the Kyrie of it all again, because like this is connected, grace and we return to Grace through Kyrie, you know, a few different times in the this film, but Grace kind of porting over through Keri. Curie is a new character, this connection to AWO, what is it? All mother, like this idea of motherhood more broadly, I think, is something that maybe James

Cameron is interested in, like, Mother Nature, Mother Earth, Mother Pandora. So it's, it's interesting. Like, I'm curious to see, like, on the one hand, it sounds absurd to say that in a three-hour in 10-minute movie, there's not maybe enough room to establish all of the new characters, but there are a lot of characters, genuinely a lot of characters. And despite, like, I feel strongly about everything we just talked about, I'm not sure I would want to trade. This makes me sound like a real, like, lunatic. I'm not sure I would want to trade our hour in the middle of the film just swimming in the reef for like... I mean, I think this all the time where I'm like...

Poor time with Ronal. I don't know. I think what we're saying would make the movie better in terms of just like being more representative. But I don't know if it would make it it is going to sound bad.

A better film in terms of like, I like Avatar because it's like, oh, this is the vibes movie. I sit down and for an hour, I'm just like, oh man, like the water is so beautiful where I'm just like, there's only so much you could do

with the plot of this movie. I don't necessarily care about the plot of this movie. But I want to talk about antagonists. And the first antagonist I want to talk about is 3D. I love this movie in 3D. I did. I love this.

I want to pitch you on something, though. Okay. I don't know if the technology is there yet. But I probably would have liked the movie more if they were like, okay, sometimes when you used to go to 3D movies, they would have the part where you have to put on the 3D glasses. Part of me is like, it would have been great if they were like, all right, we're just going to have a normal movie.

when we get to the water, we're going to have a little side, put on the glasses, we do that for an hour, we take it off. Interesting. For three hours, I loved all the 3D, but as someone who wears glasses already and has to put them on top, I was like, this is, this is too much 3D. 3D for 3 hours is a lot of 3D, where I almost got to a point where I was just like,

we didn't need three hours of this, maybe 90 minutes. Not sure we needed all of it. I know you were asking the group chat, you're like, So I need to see this in 30C. Yes. So I pulled our ring reverses group chat in advance to ask if I could credibly podcast about the film if I did not see it in 3D. Because to be completely clear about this, my strong preference would have been to not see it in 3D. I do not like seeing movies in 3D.

I just think it's like unpleasant to have like a thing on my face for, and I don't wear glasses. So I think I'm just not literally just not used to it. I'm like, this is just, I'm, I'm fucking with these the whole time. I'm like, you know, this is just like a whole thing to manage. So in terms of your pitch, I would definitely not want that because I'd constantly then have to be thinking about whether, at least this time I just put them on and then that was that. I wouldn't want the, okay, now it's time for a message, hey, put your 3D glasses on.

Because I think the thing that we're really, the thing that we're really saying almost more than anything else is like, this is just a vibe. for three hours. And I don't, it's this immersive, experiential thing. And I wouldn't want anything to pull me out of that.

And I think like prompts to put the glasses on and take them off would really have pulled me out of it and reminded me that I was there watching a movie about the way of water

instead of participating and learning about the way of water myself, which is what I like to pretend I was doing. I'm like, I'm just swimming here with my, with my guy. So I'm curious, like,

given what you just said, do you think, like, did you, leave this wanting more 3D? Are you like, this is a rare, rare thing where I'm willing to go the 3D route? Did you miss 3D when it wasn't as much a part of our lives?

Like, what's your overall longing or desire? Yeah. I've always hated it. I've always hated 3D. And I left this movie being like, telling everybody, go see this movie in 3D. I will see a James camera movie in 3D. I will not see any other movie.

Like, I hope I really am like strongly, I don't want Marvel to be like, Hey guys, it is 3D now. I do not want that. I just want James Cameron, Avatar movies, if he wants to do this. Because like,

even when you're in the forest in the beginning with the 3D, it is electric just seeing things fly at you. Yeah, the vines. Yeah. Oh, the water droplets and like the, yeah, it's great. But I didn't leave this being like, I hope this resurrects the 3D trend.

Because do you remember? No, quite the opposite. I'm like, I hope that this does not, my fear is if this movie is really successful, it will revive the 3D trend. 3D trend in a way that would be genuinely upsetting. Like, I really don't want that to happen. Wait, well, let me ask this before we get onto the other antagonist.

Would you for like a week only if Top Gun Maverick goes, comes back to theater? Would you be like, yeah? Would you see Top Gun Maverick in 3D just to see like the fucking planes going like, Zoom? Gladly. Yeah. Gladly and with joy in my heart. So it seems like we're not saying we hate all 3D just 99.9.9% of it. Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. Maverick can transcend anything I dislike, but very few can. So how did you feel about, we've been talking about like the colonel. Yeah. And it was funny where I was in the beginning, I was almost laughing at the movie magic of it all, where it's like you don't realize until you watch 2009's Avatar how much of the movie is set up by Jake just like talking to a computer, be like, all right, we could literally just explain.

everything. And this movie does a very similar thing with the colonel where it's like, we have to explain why the colonel is back, why he's in a knobby body, why the other Marines are back, why the humans weren't here for this long. And it's almost as cheesy as it is, I was very happy that they did it so quickly. Because I'm like, all right, cool. Like, I get everything. I understand why he's back. Part of me is a little itchy about the colonel, potentially returning in the third movie where I'm like, I think we've gotten enough of the colonel as a character. He's very one note. What did you think about how, because he looms over this movie so much in a way where I was like,

I don't know about all this. So one of my big questions heading into the movie was how is Corridge in this movie? How is Wang in this movie? Like, he died. We saw him die. And then well before you actually sit down to see the movie, you're able to like figure it out on your own, right? It's like, okay, well, we know that the way the avatar's work is that your consciousness,

there's this neural link, your consciousness is poured it into this other being. And we know that it can be permanent with it, as in Jake's case, now that was handled on Pandora through the connection to AWA, not through humans and RDA and their pursuit of greed at all costs. but like we know it's possible. And so yeah, it's like, okay, they're gonna have his consciousness and upload it into a new body

and there's our villain right where we left him in the form of his enemy. New twist, new wrinkle. I agree. I liked that we got the really kind of neat and tidy download. I think that the video logs in the first film

were like, and in general kind of the way the voiceover manifests in the first film, it's like holding, your hand in a way that feels almost like too handy and simple. Like you always have the explanation right there when you need it. But also like you do kind of need it sometimes. You just need someone to explain to you what's happening.

So I was glad that we like dispensed with that, handled it and dispensed with it quickly. And the Quarge character in the first movie is like successful. as a character, even if, as you note, there's this, like, one-note quality to it. So it makes sense to me, I guess, that he's back. I'll be curious to see, again, the spider of it all and maybe, like, the transference of some of those, some of those, like, I don't know what we'll have to happen

for a spider to be, like, acting on behalf of humanity, but the bond between those characters and then the, like, pursuit of vengeance against somebody who's hurting courage. But, like, here's the thing. I'm talking this out in real time with you, and it's like, can you ever eliminate this character? Like, I'm saying, okay, well, what if spider steps in? But, like, there's always another body, right?

Now, I guess we know it takes time. It takes time to go back to Earth. It takes time to fly the mission back to Pandora. It takes time to grow the avatar body that's happening in transit. it. So if the third movie is picking up, like, right after this one, if this avatar form of Quarge had, in fact, perished, if Spider hadn't fucking pulled him out and saved him, then in theory he would not have been able to be in the third movie because there wouldn't have been time to get a new avatar form for him. But he could have come back in the fourth. If there's, like, enough time between them. Like, we're in a little bit of a, you know, black mirror, like, again, this is like a sci-fi trope, right? The ability to upload consciousness, it's like not necessarily

something you can just do once. So in a way, I think that could be interesting if these characters are like always caught in a loop with each other. But, and like, can you escape your foe? Can you escape your own worst tendencies? Like, that could be compelling. But I think the fear is the one you've outlined, which is like, does every movie just feel the same

if it's the same characters facing off against each other? So if Spider becomes the foe, for the younger kids and you kind of pass that rivalry down to the next generation, maybe that's a way to maintain that tether while also giving us something a little fresh. So I'm going to skip ahead because we're going to talk about like, you know, our favorite parts of the movie. But by the end of this movie, when we get Jake and Jake has finally been like, hey, this is war. I can't keep running away.

I was asking myself, I'm like, Charles, do you just want one more of these movies? Should this be a trilogy or should it be five? And I think the best way they can make five of these movies is going the Planet of the Apes route, the Reeves movies, where it's just like, I think those movies were very, very successful of like, they kind of structurally are always about the same thing. But as the war gets more desperate, as kids get brought into it, as like, that was almost like, I got very big Planet of the Yates vibes from Jake being like, okay, now, this is five movies. we are going to see three movies of like, what does war do to people? How does war dehumanize people? The Navi are spiritual.

What is it due to Pandora? What does it do to Jake? What does it do to Natiri? What does it do to Loak? I'm like, I would like to see five of those movies. I don't know as much as I liked a way of water. I don't know if I want another. They go to the volcano, Navi,

and now the colonel is chasing them down there. I'm like, I don't know how many times I could see the colonel being like, Soles, I just, I don't know. Would you, which, which way would you want the avatar story to go? Do you just want one more? Do you, is there a world where you want three more? So, I'm a little bit at war with myself over this because I think like, when you think about the plot, yeah, I want more like advancement and evolution and just character development and character arcs to continue to return to the world.

but if I'm honest, based on everything that we've said in the pod and everything that we experienced watching the movie, I would like happily go back and actually experience exactly what you just said you didn't want, which is like the volcano movie. You know, like, give me a new, a new clan and a new part of Pandora in every film and have it look amazing, have it pushed the bounds of what we've seen before on screen, because that is actually what we're coming to the films for. And so if we're achieving that, and I think that's what we're going to get for what it's worth.

Because I'll read a quote from you to you from, this is from John Landau, the producer. And this was to Nick Romano at Entertainment Weekly. And this is about the future of the franchise. Quote, each movie will introduce audiences to new biomes. Each movie is going to introduce audiences to new clans, new cultures on Pandora. Once we introduce a character, they stay a part of the ongoing evolution. we just add to it. So you could expect to see the Metcaina

that you met in this movie in subsequent movies. There are other clans that will introduce in movie three that you'll see in movie four and so on and so forth. So I do think that's what's going to happen. Now, how do you balance one of the end notes of this film being like, we have to leave no, like, your son is with our ancestors now.

This is your home. This is our home. We are part of the way of water with like, okay, we're probably just going to have to bounce and go somewhere else. And then here's, you know, here's the thing, though, with our guy, Jake Sully. At some point, and I was already feeling it here,

we're going to have some notes for Jake Sully on continuing to endanger other clans, other families, and other ways of life just because he wants to flee from Quarach. So at some point, he will have put all of Pandora in danger, though I guess RDA is coming for all of Pandora anyway. Oh, no, I mean, to your point, it is not, like, I would love. Like, have you seen, have you seen the documentary fire of love?

No. It's this lava documentary about like these two, these two scientists who study volcanoes and just like their love story and how it like bonds them. And it is a beautiful, it's just, it's all of their archival footage about studying volcanoes. And when I saw it, I was like, breathtaking. I would watch five hours of just lava.

So I would love the lava avatar. What I don't want, to your point, and you express it way better than me, is the Jake goes to a. new tribe. He endangers them. And then he's just like, oh, man, I learned your ways, but got to run away from the colonel. I'm just like, I don't. I think there's a way to do the bio movie without it constantly being like a Tom

and Jerry episode where it's like Jake and his family running away from like the colonel. Like it just. Yeah. So you think after four movies, we will say that this at this avatar franchise has just officially mapped onto the other avatar franchise. We started in the forest with earthbending. then we went to the reef for water bending, fire bending and air bending, here we come.

I mean, Keri bended in this movie, technically. Keri did bend. It's true. It's true. Yeah. Oh, you're actually an avatar. Shout out to you. So before we wrap and we give this a midnight meter ranking,

if we had to pick our favorite moment, because we've been talking about the water scene, but like if we had to like specific moment of your like, this is my shit, I love this movie. What would it be for you? I think it would be Loweck and Paya Khan bonding.

Going on their first swim together, the hand reaching out to touch the fin, I was just like, yes. This is incredible. When he said his story is too painful to tell him, I was just like, no. Oh, my goodness. And like, that's the other thing with the,

the CGI, the visual, the technological advancement in the film. We're talking a lot about the water and the quality of filming in the water that is genuinely astonishing. But when you see, like, the depth in the eye of Pyocon or Roa, it is incredible.

Like, I don't know how he did that. So that has to be my favorite stretch. I just, I'm always a sucker for a bond between a being and a magical creature. And I thought Pai Khan was just a delight. I thought the Tulkoons were fascinating. I would love an entire movie, even though we, I think, feel, as we just discussed,

pretty certain we'll bounce to another region at some point. I would love another movie just sent in the water, swimming with our space whales. I thought they were great. What about you? What was your favorite? And then he came back at the end, and he was like in the thick of it,

in the action, crushing shit. gyps and using a like the cable to saw that dude's arm Wait, oh,

that's not, maybe that's one B the really like the asshole who's like hunting the Tulkoon when his arm comes flying off I'm like

James Cameron just knows what to do. Yeah. Scores B. Fuck that guy. I would say my weakness in any movie and I don't think we do it enough. I love a training montage. I love a work going to, like, when the kids arrive and they're learning from the

Mechayina children about, like, how to ride certain things or like, how to, what do they eat? All these different things. Like, James Cameron, I'm just like, you, like, you know how to do the training montage of even when, like, Jake is learning. He wants to learn how to ride the, uh, the same steed that the warriors do. It was just a very, yeah. Yeah.

I love a training montage. I also think the third act of this. movie where I'm usually, you said this earlier, I'm usually set up to be disappointed by third acts because I'm like, I don't really care about the fighting. I care about like the characters and and how it connects with each other. But James Gaprid, he knows how to do an action scene. Everything from when the knife, when people would swipe at each other, when the bullets would fly, there was a weight to it. Everything, there was a choreography to the to the action set pieces where I'm just like, oh, this is like a man who's been doing this for his entire life.

He knows how to like set up an action scene that feels emotional. I just had not seen something that affecting when people are just shooting at each other. Did you feel like when the air pockets, because we have two duos, you know, in the family unit who are caught in the vessel and can't find their way out until Keri comes to the rescue aided by. Ayawa. Did you, like, feel like a tightening in your chest watching that? Like, you actually had the sensation. I started breathing heavier. I'm like, I can't breathe. I'm like, oh, no. Why am I breathing more heavily watching this? And it is a credit to that really, like, wholly immersive quality of that action stretch. It's, it's pretty wild. It was, I mean, it was touching. It was amazing. Jake, when Jake is, like, about to drown, he's like, I can't do this. I can't breathe.

Yeah. And then his son is essentially, like, teaching him everything. that he's learned. I'm like, okay, this is exactly like the first movie, but it works. I'm just like this. I know. I know. And then he's like, oh, I'm so, I'm such a dickhead to you, but look at you and all you've learned. That was nice. So, Mal, this is not the midnight boys, but I wanted to do a midnight meter ranking. Oh my goodness. That don't know what the midnight meter is. It's a, we score a movie from one to 12. 12 is for game changers. We're talking about infinity, dark night. The big, the big ones. All right. One to 10. Those are just normal one to ten.

Right. One being the worst. 10 being the best. Right. So it's really a one to 10, but like 11, 12 are reserved for the extraordinary. The extra, like, we're putting this in the pantheon of movies. It's very hard to get a 12. The entire time we've done the Midnight Boys, the only thing to score at 12 has been Andor.

Right. Right. So you want me to go first? Yeah. Okay. Boy. I'm going to give. way of water a strong, strong

eight. I think it is like, it is not a 10. It is not a perfect movie. But what it does well, it does very, very well. And I was like, my girlfriend's like, what did you think? I was just like, I looked like an idiot watching it because I'm not, like, oh my God, what's that? The water, look at the water. It's so crystal

clear. Like, look at the pores on the Navi. Amazing. It gets an eight just like of a, I spent three hours in a theater and I was just like a baby. I'm like, this is like the first time I saw my dad took me to see Wizard of Oz and theaters. I'm like, whoa, color. Like, amazing, bro.

So strong eight, where are you going now? Yeah, I think I'm at an eight, an eight too. And for the same reasons, it's just, it is such a, it is such a gripping and stunning visual achievement and spectacle that you kind of have to credit it and award it for. that for like the advancement and the innovation on that front. And I think for like winning us over despite the skepticism, the lack of interest in 3D, not having really spent many moments in the past decade plus saying I can't wait for the next avatar. And then to have that experience of like, wow, these three plus hours kind of flew by and I thought that looked amazing. Now I assume we'll

head into another stretch. Now it won't be as long between movies, but into another stretch where like, I didn't really think about Jake Sully's character arc much between these films, but like I did think about how cool it was to see the fluorescent aquatic plant life. And

that's something. Like, it is an imperfect film and an imperfect franchise that pushes the boundaries of what we have seen before and understand to be possible. And that is an eight. I think.

You coming in with a three? Where are you at? Steve, give us your midnight meter ranking because you're a hater. You hate this movie. I wanted to put this at like six. A six? Yeah. You don't think that.

Are you doing this? This is, I saw a lot of cool screen savers for about an hour and a half. That was nice. Let me tell you something. I love a cool screen saver. Do you have an Apple TV? You know when it goes into screensaver mode? And you just get to watch the beautiful.

aerial footage of like, you know, Shanghai and whatever. Yeah, no, that's what this movie was for about half of that. Oh, my God. Whale brains. Wow. Okay. Well, Steve is coming back in the, with quarage to destroy the way of life on Pandora. A little preview of the Midnight Mulligan's episode.

How about that? Well, guys, that has been our instant reactions to Avatar the Way of Water. Thank you so much, bow. I had so much fun. I think the way of water won us both over. Such a joy to be here with you. I had an absolute blast. I will happily swim among the Tolcun with you anytime you want, buddy.

What a treat. Thank you. Woo! All right. Remember, follow us on socials, Insta, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, hashtag, save Joe Meets, Job. This Wednesday, the Midnight Boys return from Midnight Mulligans. On Friday, the House of R are giving you all the recommendations you, you need to know.

And then next Wednesday, it is the Verses. We are celebrating. We, this is the Oscars. Honestly, people have said, this is bigger than the Oscars, you know? So make sure you tune in.

And with that, I want to thank you so much for Steve for producing. Our other producer, Arjuna Ramqqbal, also Jomea Denneron on the socials. And with that, I just have to say,

Big Jim did it again. even though Steve thinks way of water could be better. And if we've learned anything from this amazing movie, Sully's stick together. Feels like every product claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source. Like real California milk from California farm families,

it's real dairy delivering high quality, complete protein. with all nine essential amino acids to help build muscle, give you energy, and keep you satisfied longer. So keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk. Did you know if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees?

Turn the temperature down with blinds.com and get up to 50% off custom window treatments like solar roller shades and more during the Memorial Day mega sale. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro-handle everything, we've got you. Free samples, Real design experts and zero pressure, just help when you need it. Shop up to 50% off site-wide and huge savings on Doorbusters right now during the Memorial Day mega sale at blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply.