The Ringer-Verse - 'Batgirl' Gets Canceled, Plus the Return of Midnight Court | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: August 3, 2022

The Midnight Boys are back and here to take on all of the issues in the fandom world this week. They talk about the decision to cancel the release of the highly anticipated 'Batgirl' film, along with the problems that HBO Max currently faces (05:58). Then, it's the long-awaited return of Midnight Court where Charles and Van present their cases in "The Avengers vs. Black Panther" (23:48). Hosts: Charles Holmes, Van Lathan, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Call me sentimental, but to me, the most joyful moment in sports is the soccer goal. And when that goal happens at the World Cup, well, it's pretty good. I'm Brian Phillips. With the 2022 Men's World Cup approaching, I'm making a podcast called 22 goals on the Ringer Podcast Network. It's about 22 of the most fire emoji goals in the history of the tournament. We're going to have so much fun. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis. symptoms, every choice matters.

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Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borershead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means

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We are Steve Almond Joy, the Cuddly Sin City Bear. We are. Jomi, the Explaner, Dideron. You've got questions. He's got answers. We are. Old Man, Van.

He of the. of the resurgent hairline. And we are Colg Baby Chuck the 24-carat closes together. We are known as

our midnight boys. Ab-hoo! Midnight boys coming to you live. Well, not live. I mean, we're live. On location. On location.

On location is what I'm going to say. From Las Vegas. We're coming to you from Vodara Hotel in Las Vegas. We have a beautiful look of the Mandalay Bay and the Delano, the Delano. Do you guys remember that song?

At the Delano. I mean, Ferrella, no. You got, okay, you guys, you guys, you guys know something? I can tell a story about that song because I know who the woman being referenced in that song is. LeBron and Yes, Jules. It's not. It's not. It's not.

It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not her. The whole thing I know exactly who was about. I'll tell you off the camera. It's not about LeBron. It's a great state of my life. It's not, it's really not.

I really thought it was Yes Jules for years. It's not. It's not. Interesting. It's not. It's not. It's not about LeBron and Yes Jules. I promise you.

Okay. Speaking about LeBron and Yes Jules, can we just say, yo, Jomey, he needs to get it together. He lost his shirt last night. Women chasing him through the streets of Cincinnati. It's a problem. What the hell happened? It was like the opening of a hard day's night.

See, the lies, the deception. See, they're just trying to create a narrative. out here. I've been on my best behavior. I got in at like 6 o'clock, right, went straight to my hotel room, you know, and then we met up with the boys.

We got burgers last night, right? Like, little midnight boys hang out. I got a free Sunday. Waitress gave him a free Sunday because he just can't turn the charm up. Okay, that is true. That did happen.

By the way, just to let you know, the waitress was fucking treat. The rest of us like, shit. She was sweet on Jomey. When Jomey got there, she started being nice. That's actually true. When Jomey got there,

She's like, oh, so, joking around. You can't do that, sir. I will say Jomey, but a black man, whenever he says I've been on my best behavior, you know he's into some sick of shit. I was in bed by 1130. And you want to know why? Let me tell you some.

You want to know why I was in bed on time? Because high school musical, the musical, the series dropped an episode at midnight. All right. And I had to be walking. Exactly. Programming. Exactly.

Next Monday, the House of Rour returns to discuss the new. Netflix series. Sandman. You guys decided about Sam, man? Yes. I'm tap it into Sandman.

Things have been looking good for that show. Yeah, I'm tapped into Sandman. Sam has a nice little ethereal sort of look. That book scared me as a team. It was very scary. He's too much.

On Wednesday, Midnight Boys will return once again. We're back. We're Rodney. The horses. The horses. The Midnight Boys. And we don't know

what we're going to do in Vegas. There's been talks about all kinds of stuff. Charles said he wanted to go out. A Jomey actually said he wanted to go out and shoot a gun, toxic Jomey. That's not what I said. It's not what I said. Charles said he wanted to rent slingshots and go around. You might see the Midnight Boys as far as we don't know what we're going to do.

Oh my gosh. We're here. On today's show, we're going to discuss Batgirl getting shelved and what it means for DC slash HBO. the question is, the central question, is there a D.C.? Oh, no. That is the question. There might be.

Who knows? You know what I mean? Is there a D.C.? There's movies coming out, but is there a continuity? Is there an apparatus? Is there a DCEU? Who even knows right now?

This is unprecedented. It's a very trust-the-process moment where every couple of years, it's like, no, we're on track again. We're on track. And this is back-girl news. this alleged backer news that Backer will not be released anymore. It was supposed to be on HBO Max.

It's not even going to be in theaters. They're just taking $90 million and just writing it off. I have to ask you that. Do you think D.C. can ever get back on track? It was never on track. But do you think D.C. can ever get on track. I'm going to answer that question. I'm also going to do something else.

I'm going to finish the intro. Because then after that, after that, the long-away to return of Midnight Court is Avengers versus Black Panther. But now I have to, so we're doing that, we're doing midnight court. Look, guys, we're feeling frisky. We're a couple of frisky. Ooh, you feel that feeling?

That's frisk. It's all over us. So we do things out of order. Who cares? Time to answer Charles's question. I think this signals the end of the DCEU as we know it. So let me tell you why. And I'm not trying to be a hot take artist.

I thought about this. Matter of fact, I try not to be a hot take artist. I try to be, you know, my take. are, they're not hot, but they're like, they're like, you know how something, you put something, you take like a frozen dinner, you put it in a microwave, and it's adequate when you get it out? Or it's really hot in the center and cold all around. That is actually your takes. Probably my take. It's hot, the deeper you get to the middle, baby. Because you got to think about it. Wait, wait, wait. I got TV food takes. Why would it be cold on the outside, but hot in the middle?

Wouldn't it be hot on the outside and then cold? old on the inside? I don't know, Jomey. Jomi, actually makes more sense. Fuck you. So here's the thing. I'm making a little money at Spotify Ringer. I don't eat frozen food fucking anymore. I haven't done this for a long time. By the way, that was elitist. Wow. So let me tell you why I think this is the end of the D.C. EU as we know it.

First of all, there was never really a D.C. EU. Yes. There was a Snyderverse. So that's the first thing. The D.C. EU was never something that was cohesive. It was never something that was comprehensive. It was never something that was able to pick up any real steam or traction. It was a bunch of different movies made that had a loose association based upon the characters that were going to show up in the Justice League.

Beyond that, there wasn't very much plot that tied them in. There wasn't very much direction involved. They never could really get it done. and so obviously with the complete failure of the end of it when you talk about Justice League and then somebody some people will call this the Snyder cut a failure as well I didn't think it was I think what we're seeing now is that

the new regime which Jombie has been informing us about is not interested in pump faking and stutter stepping and doing all of that stuff they're interested in the bottom line and I don't think that they're as obsessed with competing with Marvel as the old regime was. I think what they care more about is making a profitable, sustainable, entertainment brand.

When they said it, they want a bunch of jokers. They want a billion dollar grocers that may not be connected, but the thing that I'm worried about, and the thing that I think has always frustrated me about D.C. is like, we rewrite history when it comes to the MCU. But the one thing that the MCU did and Kevin Feigy did is like, they released a bunch of shit movies.

But they were always being like, the next one will be good. The next one will be better. And even when the movies sometimes didn't work, like Iron Man with Mandarin, they figure out how to do it with Shang Chi. They're always figuring out like learning lessons, being like, hey, even if this movie wasn't the greatest,

we're going to keep bouncing back. We're going to learn from our mistakes. I'm going to be real. After the first Justice League, they were like, oh, people just don't want a Justice League movie. I'm like, no, you can do another Justice League movie. It just needs to be better. And I think DC is so afraid of their failures in a way that Marvel honestly, like, puts their arms around it, learns from it.

So it's just like, yeah, I don't know if I'm ready for another DC is trying to do this again. It's kind of too late. Joe? I don't think Marvel was released, like, I mean, we've had this conversation a thousand times, but I don't think Marvel is, like, released, like, bad films, like, back to back to back the way like DC has. I mean, Thor the Dark World, those later Iron Man films. I mean, but I remember I said that, right, in Phase 2. You know, I just, I'm not going to accept that Iron Man 3 was just like, whack.

Some people loved it. It wasn't a great movie. It wasn't even a good movie. I really enjoyed Iron Man 3. Same. Even at the time, people were like, this is not. It's good. It's good.

It's good. I want to say it was crazy or it was, like, special, but it was good. Far from bad. Far from bad. Though the dark world, like, you have all the right. So I'll ask you this then. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, are they better than Thor the Dark World or Iron Man 3? I would say, y'all's with you.

I don't think Wonder Woman or Aquaman is better than Iron Man 3. I'm going to be real weird. Wow. Okay. Now, hold on. Now, hold on. I would say that Wonder Woman is better than Iron Man 3. I would think...

Wonder Woman is as good as Iron Man. I don't think that's true. I think Aquaman and Iron Man on, like, the same level. That's... I love... All three of these movies are movies that I like, I will call them all in a dead heat, basically. They're all the same quality of the best.

That's really not. Iron Man 3 was better than Batman versus Superman. I would agree. Batman versus Superman is not good. We're getting off the hard. That's not hard. That's not a hard. But let's bring it back.

So, Jumby, you were finishing a point. Go ahead. So, you know, long story short of, the long and short of it is that D.C. and, well, it's not really DC, I would say. Warner Brothers is at a crossroads. After being acquired by Discovery, the guy in charge, I can't remember his name for the life for me at this very moment,

is cutting costs at, like, an exponential level. I think I read somewhere. I want to say from the Hollywood Reporter. Jason Keller. Jason Keller, the guy in charge of Discovery Plus right now? Yes. Oh, okay. they need to cut like $3 billion.

Okay. So that include Batgirl, and we don't know what else as of right now. So the article states that basically they have shelved both Batgirl and the Scoob sequel, sequel to that great animated film Scoob, likely for tax reasons as a write-off because the film is too big. The budgeted film of $90 million is too big. to be put on streaming services

because that would add a budget of like $20 to $30 million to market it or too small to release in theaters, adding even more so to market it there. So they shelved both of them as a write-off to basically cut those losses

that they would eventually have in a restructure for prioritizing streaming. And that also means that because they did that and they involved the accountants, that they are for forbidden to ever monetize the movie in any way. That cannot happen because they use it as a tax right now.

Okay, cool. The business side of it is well understood. Wait, can I ask you guys this question? Don't mean to be this guy. Do you think back girl, do you think they saw a back girl and were essentially like, can't do it? No. No. So here's the thing, no.

No, I just want to. But here's the thing, no, that doesn't matter. And I'll tell you why. this is such a shrewd and unprecedented business decision that it doesn't even matter how good the movie is. I'm not saying it's bad. I was just... I know.

So what I'm saying is if bad girl was horrible, how many horrible movies get released to wide releases all the time, right? You put your fucking movie out. You put your movie out because their creators involved in a movie that worked on the film in Good Faith. You put your movie out because you want to recoup what you can on movie. You put your movie out because it's part of a financial strategy and a quarterly earnings basis that you put out and you are way too far into it to back out now. You put your movie out.

To not put the movie out, a movie that had Michael Keaton in it, a movie with a character that has a very established comic lineage going back decades is so brazen to me. Number one, it's when I say shrewd, I mean dangerously shrewd. If I'm a creative that worked on that movie and we talked a little bit about this at dinner last night, I'm livid. I'm livid if I'm the lead here

because whether the movie flops or whether it doesn't flop, the exposure that you get from being in that type of role, if you are a writer, if you are anybody, it doesn't matter whether or not you get paid. Your career is not based upon how much you've got paid.

Your career is based upon building on things. And that includes building on failures. So for them to make this decision, it signals something so much deeper about the creative apparatus at DC, not just the business apparatus, but the creative apparatus there. And what they're willing to sacrifice, what they're willing to do to, I guess, write the ship. Like, this was the nuclear option if you ask me. And I've, like, way past nuclear. You know how many people worked on this movie that, like, Michael Keaton, you pissed him off forever. Yeah. And to think about it, what?

They did this with Backgirl. Meanwhile, Flash, I don't, like, I don't care how good or bad the Flash is. When I sit down in the theater, I will not be able to see, like, I will not be able to erase everything that Ezra Miller has done. Can I address this real quick? Ezra Miller is a fucking, I don't want to use any ablest language,

but Ezra Miller is fucking out there, right? and they don't deserve to have a film, a tempo film like The Flash. They just don't with everything that they've done. We've seen this in Hawaii. It's very dangerous. It's weird. It's scary. Not releasing the Flash movie, though, hurts so many more people than just Ezra Miller.

Like, it hurts, it exponentially affects so many more people than Ezra Miller. if the Flash movie is trash or if they want to write it down the same thing that's one thing but Ezra Miller's conduct as fucked up as it is we have to kind of look past that

when we're talking about whether or not the Flash movie is going to release or whether or not it's not going to release that is what you get in bed with when you're D.C., and I understand that but they probably should put the movie out. Now, this isn't me saying they shouldn't or like they should or should or should

It's more so me being like, it does send a message when you're like, you have a woman of color being back girl, take a bath on the 90 million. We're still going to get a flash movie. I would be pissed. I would be like, yo, like, after everything we've seen in the news with Ezra Miller,

if I was working on a back girl, everyone from the top to the bottom, I'd be like, yo, this is not only is not fair, but this seems like a slap in the face. It is. It does seem like a slap in the face. I can understand that. But it's an intriguing slap.

What is the young lady that's the lead in Bad Girl? Leslie Grace. Leslie Grace. Was also in the Heights. Into the heights. So we haven't yet, at least I haven't yet heard from her. Has she talked about this yet? She's expressed in multiple interviews that she was very excited.

This is before the movie was canceled, that she was like super excited for the role. The movie was going to be great. She's really excited about it. And as well as a couple of other stars being. excited about it now. I'm guessing that they'll be NDA'd out of their minds to not talk about this during any future press

or anything like that. That's going to be impossible. This is too public. I'm sure there are certain things they won't be able to talk about but if you're telling me right now that there's never going to be a point in time where Leslie Grace is going to be able

talk about. But like in the immediate people are probably going to be very surprised. I'd be very surprised if you're not allowed to ask her and she's not allowed to talk about how she feels about the movie because that's a lot of lost time

yeah about how she feels about the movie being about the prep time that people go to get into shape to be a superhero back girl prep time god damn I beat you by one second I said it first

when you listen when he looked to listen back I had it first I was like prep time no I could cut you out that's true Charles to your point the directors the same guys who did bad boys for life are of Moroccan descent you know I mean like so it's interesting that like a movie like that they're like ah we can we can get this thing out of here you know it's something I think Scott Derrickson made a point about this yesterday on Twitter like it's interesting you know they got

the movie with the people the people of color directors and the person of color lead out of here like that that's interesting I wonder where all of the you know bot accounts to release the Bat Girl cut will be after all of this. Before we get to Midnight Court, I have to ask y'all, do you think that there is any way that the DC ship can be, like, course corrected? Are we too far, like, has the football been pulled away from us one too many times and we're just kind of exhausted?

So I'll give my take. The answer is, of course they can get it right. the only thing that it takes forget about the DC EU forget about the MCU forget about any CU or anything of all of it forget about any of it you know what you need to make great movies you need great filmmakers who are committed to telling great stories that work with great talent and what happens is when you're making movies like these sometimes when you're having when you're dealing with characters that aren't necessarily characters,

their cultural staples and money machines, what you have are too many hands involved in the way that character should be portrayed, and the way that character should be marketed, in the way that character's story should be told. That was the refreshing thing about the MCU. You can do whatever you want with Ant, man. You could do whatever you want with Thor.

nobody's looking over your shoulder. You can do whatever you want with Iron Man. If you want to take Iron Man and make him into a snarky, wise-cracking billionaire scamp, you can do that and nobody's going to come at you about it. I mean, they tried to do demon in the bottle, and they were like, back up a little bit.

Back up a little bit. But they tried to do demon in the bottle after they had already established the character that they were doing, right? And to be honest with you, I think that was after Disney got involved, which kind of changes things a little bit. So what I would say, one second, see,

so what I would say is with situations like this, if they let people create and if they are dedicated to that, they can easily make great movies with these characters. They gave Nolan a blank slate to do whatever he wanted and look what Nolan did. I mean, look at the Batman.

I'm not saying you have to think Matt Reeves the Batman is a perfect movie, but you look at that, you can tell that there's somebody who loves this character who knows what he wants to do and has a vision. And I'm like, I would rather that than this constant, like,

we're trying to be like the MCU. We're not trying to be, we're not releasing our movies, pushing stuff back. I'm just like, just releasing great movies. Like, just come on. I've never seen a studio more allergic to success than Warner Brothers has handled DC. Because, like, I know that it's not as easy

as like, oh, just copy the Marvel playbook and then you've got gold because, like, that's a very nuanced thing that you build upon for years and years. The fact that they can't get even, seemingly the right things right from the jump. Like, they can't tell us who's playing Superman right now. Who are your tent poll actors for, you know, the most important heroes that you have in your

slate? They don't know. They don't know. I know. We don't even know. Is the Michael B. Jordan project happening? Eh? Is any project that we can think of post, you know, Shazam or post things that, like, are even

ethereal now? Like, likely might not happen. What does this mean for the rest of the, you know, HBO Max slate of D.C. properties that were probably going to be either reshuffled or resold or maybe not happening at all. We just talked about Harley Quinn on Mint Edition. Are we going to get a season four of that? Like, they can't seem to write the ship in the grand scope of things and even the biggest, most popular projects like Batgirl can't even get off the ground. I think they have to simplify things and they have to decide what kind of stories and what

kind of superhero shop they want to be. Marvel probably threw a little monkey wrench in their situation because who expected Marvel to get it that right. Of course they could do it. You know what they could do? They could turn to the Midnight Boys right now and they can say, hey, come up with a kick-ass Mr. Terrific script. And we would just go and write a great movie starring Amari Harwick as Mr. Terrific. Okay.

And we would make a great movie and it would be dope. And then you get two great movies. You don't even have to make a great movie, standalone movie. throwing a cutscene. Boom, your cutscene gets you to your next book. Or even don't do it. Don't fucking interconnected. Just give us fucking Superman.

Give us the Batman. They gave us the Batman already three hours of walking slow. Like give us like You're turning sour on the Batman quicker and quicker. Mr. Hater, not talking about our previous conversation off Mike, but I see a little hatred coming from you, Mr. Lathan. I like, it's not hatred.

For adults with Crohn's disease or also, obstinative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis,

serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This week on Midnight Court, the prosecution Van Lathen claims that the defendant, Charles Holmes, was off his fucking rocker,

claiming that the MCU film Black Panther was better than 2012's The Avengers. All right, I am Judge Steve Allman, and this is the case of the Avengers versus Black Panther. The prosecution, Mr. Van Lathen, will begin with opening remarks, followed by Mr. Holman. Holmes. Thank you. Thank you distinguished judge, Almond. Thank you to the listeners, the Midnight Writers and the Midnight Mob that are out there right now, interested and invested into what we have to litigate here today. What we're talking about is two movies that are classics. We're talking about two movies that reside in the hearts of not just all MTCU fans, but fans of fandom everywhere. These are two

titans, two stalwarts of this genre that really make a difference that stand out. The question is how much. We are not litigating today whether or not both of these films are staples of culture.

We're litigating which one of these films is more so, in my opinion, a staple of that. And in order to do that, The prosecution intends to set up some stakes. The prosecution intends to look at these movies in the way that fans do.

When going to the film, going to the movies to see a superhero film, what are you going to see? I would contend that there are four different things that you need from your film. Number one, you need superhero hijinks and fun. characters going back and forth understanding the concepts and the stakes of their world number two you need impeccable action sequences impeccable high stakes

action sequences that is the very fiber of these movies when you are first a kid it was the feats of these superheroes that made you particularly interested in following their careers and their lives. Number three, I would say that the modern superhero movie needs a dash of humor.

With the outside example of the Dark Night, most of these films have caught their breath to make us laugh a little bit, to bring us closer to the characters themselves and get us inside of the, of their minds through humor, something that the Avengers in 2014 does very, very, very well.

And when we talk about superhero movies now, that's the last thing that we have to discuss. Last thing that we have to talk about, stakes. Stakes matter. When we're talking about these films, what they mean to us, it is normally the most consequential movies, Be they consequential because of what happens in the story,

or be they consequential to what they mean to the genre that move us. The stakes. What happened after? What does this movie mean for? And when you look at those four metrics, the metrics to me that signify a good or great superhero movie. It is clear that, Not only is the OG Avengers,

marvels the Avengers, a better superhero movie than Black Panther. It is a better experience. And I also intend to show that as much as we love Black Panther, as much as we're connected to Black Panther, that some of that connection has absolutely nothing to do with the movie itself,

a movie where a black man helps to see. CIA kill his cousin. But like it, the movie itself, but our connection to our own culture, the prosecution hands it back over to the court. Mr. Holmes, defendant, your opening remarks. Thank you. Good morning to the court, your honor,

members of the jury and the esteemed prosecution. If y'all would indulge me for a second, I'd like to begin in 1966. I want you to imagine the newsstands full of vibrant and colorful comics. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four. Oh, yes, it was the Silver Age. But it might as well have been a dairy farm

because there was nothing but milk on them stands. Just whiteness as far as the eye could see. In a world so diverse with different races, Why was it so hard to find superheroes that reflected the real world heroes that boys and girls across America admired every day? Then came Black Panther. Creating in 1966 by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee, he was meant to fill this void. But don't let the present fool you. It took years for Black Panther to be taken seriously.

Even though he wasn't created by black people, his essence is fiercely ours. When you look back at black culture and the art we produce in America, it is the story of taking less and molding it into masterpieces that discarded parts of animals on plantations become soulful cuisine. The forgotten records sitting in our parents' basement result in hip-hop, one of the greatest musical and cultural genres of all time. And a seamless character created in the 1960s and mishandled for decades perseveres because that is what we do. And on February 16, 2018, in theaters across America, we once again saw what it is to take the scraps a racist world gives us and create something truly singular. Mr. Van Lathen, Mr. Adenneron, and Mr. Allman will try to convince you that today's argument is simple. What's the better film? Avengers or Black Panther.

They will lean on the fact that Avengers is why we have the MCU. They aren't wrong. But I'm here to tell you today in this courtroom, I am arguing for something far more dire. I am fighting a war against nostalgia, popular opinion. But most importantly, I'm fighting a war against cynicism. Sitting in those theaters on a brisk February night, Black Panther transported a generation,

it made them believe in something bigger than themselves. Within the stories of Tachala, Shuri, Kilmong, in the Kia, we saw our people. As the smartest, most gifted, most heartfelt citizens of this globe, it is what we had always seen when we looked at our own people. Ryan Cougler, Chadwick, Bozeman, and Company

did something far more important than an Avengers film ever could. Something that 2012 Avengers didn't have to do because of its makeup. See, they convinced the world that there's nothing more beautiful than envisioning a world where black people are at the center of the frame. Not as

slaves. Not as the No, no, but as the heroes. Now, I love me some Robert Downey Jr. And Chris Evans, don't get me wrong, all right? Avengers is where it all started. But today, I hope you'll walk with me as I try to convince you. That celebrating a movie for what it started is far less crucial than rewarding a film for the new present it built.

Thank you. I would like to inform the court and this jury that Mr. Adepron and myself, will have no influence over the proceedings of this case and move forward with evidence and calls for witnesses. Mr. Lathen, your witness. My first witness

is a man who staple in journalism, staple in fandom, staple in WWE. He currently does Knicks breakdowns on the Yes Network in New York. one of the most major media markets

in the entire world formerly of the Flavorant 2 podcast currently of the Say Less show with Cass the homie Cass is on the show now Cass where in the world do your people come from? I'm first generation

Nigerian American my father and mother were both born in Nigeria yes both born in Nigeria interesting Can you tell us the first time you heard of the character of Black Panther and what that character meant to you?

The first time I heard of the character Black Panther was, I think I was watching either the X-Men animated series or Spider-Man animated series, one of those. I wasn't big on the actual comic books, but I was huge on the comic book adaptations of TV shows. And I saw Black Panther as a character there. and they kind of threw up. They didn't really flesh out the Wakanda sort of backstory of Black Panther,

but you just knew he was rich and he was from Africa. And I was like, oh, snap, that's like the Black Tony Stark. Okay, I see what they're doing here. Didn't think much of it as a youth. But it was only as I got older that I realized sort of like the mythology that came with the Black Panther character and how much it meant to, you know, a lot of young comic book readers. Coming from Africa and seeing a character that,

represented African excellence. How did that, what did that do for you? How did that change your purview in terms of comic books, in terms of this mythology, or did it at all? It definitely shaped my view as somebody who just loves, you know, mythology and comic books and superheroes and stuff like that. Like, I was, to give it a little context, you know, I was big up power. Rangers and power I only like the black ranger because he was the only black character.

Anytime there was like teams of superheroes or teams of, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, gangs or whatever, like, even like the, even the superheroes that weren't black, I pretend they was black just so like I could enjoy it more. Like, I'd watch Dragon Ball Z. And to me, Piccolo was black only because he was like the closest thing. Say that again. Can you say that when we're on top of the podcast? Same thing with like Doug, right?

He used to watch Doug back in the day. I just assumed Skeeter was black. But, you know, when I see the actual black characters and the actual, the actual African ancestry with the story that I can, you know, harken back to with my parents. And, you know, Nigerian parents will always tell you, like, where they come from and the royalty that they come from and, you know, and the history. So it was always wonderful to kind of see a character that I didn't have to imagine, right? Like I didn't have to put like some fake backstory behind because they didn't want to put no black characters into the show. Right. So Black Panther becoming this hero in Marvel and living in the world with Spider-Man and Iron Man and Captain America, the X-Men and all these people that I love so much.

It was like, Dan, not only is he a black character, not only is he an African character, but Lois of the Keys, he might be the hardest one out of all of them because he's richer than the Iron Man. He got these crazy superpowers. he's got this he's got a nation of people behind him he don't got no secret identity you know who he is you know what i mean like he almost felt like godlike so seeing that made me always feel like oh man like black panthers the dude i didn't even i didn't even associate the the the um the movement with black panther i i initially thought and i don't know if i'm wrong or right of this i didn't do enough research on it but i always thought like the black panther group was named after the superhero because the superhero was so dope.

That's how removed from it I was. You know what I'm saying? So, but that's how I looked at it as a kid. Obviously, I grew up and obviously, you know, figured out, you know, what it was. But that's, that's what Black Panther kind of met to me, the more I kind of got to do who he was. Sounds like the character of Black Panther

was very important to you being an African and being a comic book lover and a comic book fan. Indeed. In 2018, the-old. the Black Panther movie comes out. Sometime after that, on Twitter, there was a tweet from you, Cass.

The tweet, just so that the court would recognize the tweet, says, if we're being honest, Black Panther the movie was kind of mid. As someone who saw the movie,

saw the movie and someone who loved the character. What made you tweet that? There's one thing about Twitter and social media. It really doesn't give nuance. So when I say Black Panther was mid, there's reasons why I said that.

I would say, for one, I think I based Black Panther and if I remember the tweet thread correctly, I think we were doing like a discussion of like the best Marvel movies, right? Like the best standalone like if there's no

universe, if there's no, oh, this movie's important because of this person like straight up standalone like yo put this movie out isn't a good movie does a stand up? Yes or no. And for that I always say Black Panther, yes. It is a good movie. Like you can watch it. It's almost

exclusively good that it kind of happened when it happened because you don't need to necessarily know the backstory. they don't necessarily know what's happening forward. It still stands alone as a very good movie. I said it was mid, however, because I remember when Black Panther was coming out, bro. I remember 2018. I remember the comic book space and the comic book movie space.

It was very different than it is right now. And a lot of people could say you could thank Black Panther for that. I think around the time the movie was about to come out, there was like this almost unspoken agreement through all black comic book lovers Marvel movie lovers, all this stuff to just be like, yo, we're going to come out and support the hell out of this movie no matter what.

No matter what. Thankfully, Ryan Coogler delivers a hell of a movie, right? thankfully. But when I said Black Panther was mid, I was only comparing it to the other great Marvel movies of the discussion, right? Like, if you line it up with the other movies,

it's like, it's better than average. You know what I mean? It's better than the average Marvel movie. It is kind of like just the Lion King with superheroes. Like if you're talking about like just the storyline, and I'm not saying the Lion King's a bad movie.

If he can redo the Lion King, good. If he can redo the Lion King and you do it well, more power to you. All I'm saying is, there was so much, it was given so much when it was released and obviously with good reason.

It did, and of course, this is 2018, I'm allowed to say that it definitely has aged better as time has gone on, obviously, with the passing of Chadwick Boseman and just seeing just how important that movie was.

That was Marvel's first billion-dollar movie, if I remember correctly. First billion dollars' song. I would like people to know that the passing of an actor should have nothing to do with the way a movie was just. No, absolutely not. But what I'm saying is it does, it does, I mean, 2018 is a long time ago,

and the comic book world has changed so much that much more mid have come out, since Black Panther. You got to understand when Black Panther dropped like you had Civil War because worse movies have gone. You got to understand. But compared to the movies before,

maybe not as great. Caz, we're dropping bars right now. Okay, so look, Cass, last question. Yes, please. Is there any part of you that believes that culturally, this is a direct question, culturally, we've made Black Panther out

to be better than it actually was because of feelings. Yes or no? Yes. Thank you. The prosecution rests. Cass, you're an amazing man. Tell these people where they can find you. You can find me on the masked man show with Kaz

with my guy David Schumacher, talk of wrestling. You catch me on Say Less with Kaz Lo-key and Rosie everywhere you listen to podcast. And he cast me on the MSG Networks with MSGP, and my co-host Monica, Monica, Monica, Monica McNutt. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate you. Love you always, brother.

He's African. For my second piece of evidence, I would like to cite Rotten Tomatoes. Now, listen, the prosecution understands that Rotten Tomatoes is a poor metric of movie love and knowledge.

I understand that. But the prosecution argues that it's only a poor metric when it comes to the critics. If you look at Black Panther, it has a 96% on the tomato meter. It's a thermometer, whatever it's called. As compared to Marvel's The Avengers, the 2012 masterpiece that changed the entire Marvel universe,

the landscape of Marvel, and the team up movie as we know it, that stands as one of the most important achievements in the history of not just superhero film, but film itself. By Panther has a 96% over 5% higher than the 91% that Marvel the Avengers has.

But what happens when you turn to the people and get the audience score of both of these films. Black Panther drops a whopping 17% down to a 79% audience score.

Whereas Marvel the Avengers has an identical 91% audience score from the viewers. Now, the prosecution is fair.

Is it possible that there was some maggers that gave Black Panther negative reviews? Sure. The prosecution thinks something else happened. The prosecution thinks a culture that is dedicated to truth as Black Twitter is, as Black culture

is, found a place to actually talk about the fact that Black Panther is not the same as Marvel of the Avengers is not the same as Thor Ragnarok is not the same

as Civil War is not the same as Iron Man One is not the same of these movies and they used rotten tomatoes to do it

and that 79% audience score is actually when it's all said and done when we're talking about these movies in the totality

the proper rating for this film it is a good not great movie, while Marvel's the Avengers gives us so many different things that were one-offs and singular moments that stand in history in the superhero landscape.

That's my witness, that's my evidence. I turn it back over to the court. All right, Mr. Holmes. He's African. Mr. Holmes, it is your turn for evidence. Thank you. I would like to do something a little bit unconventional today.

My first witness that, I'm calling to the stand is a Mr. Steve Allman. Could you please take the stand? Objection. Can you bring the judge? As this is why

Mr. Holmes requested that we have Mr. Arjuna as the judge. They said I couldn't. Well, Mr. Arjuna I can. I'll allow this for a moment. Oh, we'll allow. As producer Steve, as that is a separate character.

As producer Steve, not as the judge, but as producer Steve. Producer Steve is a separate character. from the judge. Excuse me. I can note my objection. I don't know what the fuck kind of kangaroo. Objection is noted.

Wait, wait. What kind of kangaroo court? Can I please? Can I please? We are running nothing but a kangaroo court, Mr. Lathens. I'll remind you of that. Arjuna is still walking from Caesar's Palace. He'll be here in six years.

Anyway, could you please state your name for the court? Stephen Allman, producer of the Midnight Boys. Excuse me. I should have been more specific. What is the nickname that you were given by Mr. Lathen on the Midnight Boys, I think it rhymes with activist?

Yes, he calls me the activist. And what is the history behind this very, very entertaining name? I'd really, uh, object. Can I object as a witness? Relatives. You're the relevance. Producer's team to judge. Oh, yes.

I believe the judge is ruling relevance here. I will just tell the court from what I remember. it is because Mr. Steve Alman loves to watch black movies with black ladies. Continue. Your Honor, stop the calf. So, Mr. Alman,

would you say that you are what we would like to call in the black community an ally? I would suppose so, though it's not for me to say. As an ally, then, can you please tell me why on the morning of July 20th,

you were so quick to say Avengers was better than Black Panther as if you didn't even give the movie created by and for blacks, it's just due. I'm afraid I'm afraid I'm going to have to invoke the fifth year for self-incrimination. Oh my gosh.

The judge would like to call to order. What? And prompt Mr. Holmes to arrive at the point. Trust me, there might be a problem. Oh, my gosh. Wow. We won't permit murder in a place of justice here. Mr. Alman, can you please tell me how many black actors are in Avengers, 2012's Avengers?

Just maybe even in the lead cast. Are there any Black Avengers? I believe one Samuel L. Jackson is in the principal cast, and that might be it. From your memory, can you list all of the Black actors that were in Black Panther? A many, Angela Bassett. legend. Yes. Chad with Bozeman, Lapida Nyango, many, many. Thank you. So then,

wrapping up, I only had two questions. What are your opinions on the movie of Ryan Coogler? Are you a fan of Fruitvale Station Creed? I am, yes. Are you a fan of Josh Sweden, who I will remind the court has done some, is accused of some very heinous things. Objection, Your Honor. What does the conduct of Josh Wheatty Head, Whedon, have to do with the quality of these two films? Because my final question, my final question.

Me, the judge saying that. Who do you think has produced more important films, Fruitvale Station, about police brutality, creed about rising above Black Panther? Who creed about rising? I should. Or Steve Oman would like to say that that importance of directors' prior films does not bear any credence on this case. It does bear credence because if we look at what Ryan Cougler has been able to do with less

than Josh Whedon over time, I would argue that we see that his movies are unimpeachable where Avengers, let's be honest, could you actually, I won't even say, could you please rate the Avengers films for the court? And this would be my last question. Age of Ultron, Infinity War, End game, etc. Yes. I would say Infinity Wars first End Game 2nd, Original Avengers,

and then H. of Ultron. So what you are trying to tell the court is that the third best Avengers movie that we don't even really talk about anymore is better than one of the most important black superhero movies of all time. Not even just the most important

black superhero movie of all time, the most important superhero movie of all time. Is that what you're saying, Mr. Allman? if you don't have, if you can't answer it, we can pass. I think by the transit of property, then what is,

that is what you are saying that I'm saying. All, I find all of those movies good and important in their own way, but I still maintain that the original Avengers, I can't believe I helped you make a fucking montage for this next thing.

Don't worry, don't worry, you're not the only one. Thank you so much, Mr. Allman. I appreciate you coming to the stand. My next witness, can I please have Jomi,

Adenor on? Could you please state your name for the court, Mr. Adoneron? Olua, Jamal-O-Ju Adonan here. Interesting. What is the... Could you tell us the origin of your name? I can. It's Yeroba.

It's Nigerian in origin. Hmm. And are any of your family members from Africa, potentially royalty? Yes, actually. Funny that you mentioned that. My grandfather, may he rest in peace, is... a king. Yeah.

Absolutely. So where are you from in Africa? One more time? My dad is from, I honestly can't remember my dad's from. But, you know, Lagos. Vegas. My family lives in Lagos right now, yeah. So are you, would you say that you are a proud African man?

100%. 100%. I even got this Nigerian pendant on my, on my chair. We love to see it, Mr. Denaron. We love to see it. So for the court, could you please tell them what you wore

to see Black Panther please describe in detail man you got to check it us on my Instagram you can follow me at Joe May Dineron check this out Please objection Can Mr. Deneron not promote Striking self-promotion from the record

No what you mean I got to see the fit you know what you mean What you mean? As you got to see the fit you know I wore a full full outfit Aq by the whole thing I went all up Man you know I had the hat man it was the whole the feel I had the whole thing, bro.

Can you explain to the court why you wore that to Black Panther? Was it because there was some excitement where you trying to show pride? Yeah, man. Africans, bro. You know, we were going up, man. Do you remember what you wore to Avengers? A sweatshirt. A sweatshirt.

And some jeans. You wore a sweatshirt. And the shoes my mom bought. Well, I remember, well, here's the thing. You know what I'm saying? I remember seeing Black Panther the Thursday before it came out. I also remember seeing when I saw. saw the Avengers.

It was a Saturday morning, a 9 a.m. showing at the Delamo 18 in Torrance, California. And it was one of the most transformative events in my life. Can you tell me? Very short, keep it very brief. What is Avengers about? 2012's Avengers. Well, Loki comes back with those, you know,

don't give me the plot. What is it about? What is it teaching the audience? And teamwork. Teamwork. Teamwork. And on average, how many Marvel movies? movies would you say are about teamwork.

But what is it about teamwork in this game we call life? You know what I mean? Every film is about teamwork. Even you can argue Black Panther is about teamwork. So can you tell me what is Black Panther about? Not the plot, but what is the movie about? Teamwork. Hmm, it seems Mr. Deneron is unwilling to maybe contend with some of the

heavier themes about interventionism, the diaspora, what it means for black people to disagree whether they're from Africa or African-Americans. You're absolutely right, absolutely right. Take that everything I just said about Black Panther versus teamwork. My last question for you is, what is the more important message for an audience, especially an audience that tends to be comic book fans, can be quite a bit racist.

Which would you say is more important? I would like, before I answer that question, I'd like to remind the court that the question is not which is more the important film, which is the better film. Can you please answer the question? No, no, I said, I just wanted to make it known, right? I said I would answer your question. The message of Black Panther is a very poignant and important one. And that's the reason why people, you know, come back and say,

wow, this film does have a great message to say. Like, I really understand the point that why I and Cougler and co-are trying to make. And it resonates. It resonates very deeply. Last question. Can you please rate the Avengers films from worst to best? Worst to best. Age of Ultron, endgame, the original Avengers, Avengers Infinity War. Damn. Twice in a row, we have people not even being able to say

that Avengers is the best Avengers movie. Okay, thank you. That's all, Mr. De Neron. Please, I would like to call my final witness. Mr. Lathen, can you please step up? Yes. Hi, how are you? I'm doing well, Mr. Lentz.

Thank you so much. Can you please state your name for the court? Van Lathen, Jr., born, April 16th, 1980. And could you describe your immediate family, the people that you live with? Collique Abrams. And who else?

Bozeman, the Bernadoodle. Interesting. Could you describe where you got the name for Mr. Bozeman, Latham? Chat with Bozeman, the late actor. Can I just know, is there any reason why you didn't name your very,

very cute puppy? Love him very dearly. after anybody in 2012's Avengers. Because I didn't personally know any of them. And I knew Chadwick Postman, rest of peace. A legend, you knew him. Yeah. That is amazing.

Well, that leads me to my second. For the court, can you please play Exhibit B for Mr. Latham. I already know what this is going to be. I'm so mad that I helped you make this. I already know what this is going to be. 99% of the stories that involve Wakanda that involved all of that stuff. 97 involved Tachala

because Tachala is singularly one of the most important characters in the history of the Marvel universe, especially lately. It became something that the culture, the history, the place of the character within not just Marvel, but within the actual real world,

became something that was used, everybody walking around doing the Wakanda Salute, to push it forward. And it was basically, around Tachalla. That's the only number one pick. Black Penta. That's only number one pick.

Black Panther is the greatest. But I didn't even notice because the trailer was just that good. So maybe the best trailer of any Marvel movie ever. Maybe. Maybe the best trailer of any Marvel movie ever. Probably most likely it is. For me, Tachala lives. Forever. Powerful, powerful words. Now, Mr. Lathen, whose voice was that on that recording?

I was van. That was mine. I recognized it to me my own voice. So, are you aware that all of those clips were just from this year? I found many episodes on podcasts such as the amazing higher learning the Midnight Boys and the Ryan Rosilipod of you fiercely defending and upholding the legacy of Black Panther. Now, could you answer this for me? Oddly, I found almost none of you regaling us with the importance of 2012's Avengers. Why is that? Well, because Black Panther, the character, which is what I'm talking about in a lot of those videos, specifically Tachala, and a lot of those videos so that the court knows are taking around the discourse for recasting Tichala is a separate entity from the movie Black Panther, which was released in theaters in 2018. See, Black Panther, I've been

reading since I was nine years old. So my connection to the character of Tachala is a wholly different experience, at least to me, than my connection to the film adaptation of one part of Tchalla's life. That's interesting because in a lot of those clips, we were talking about the comic books. We were talking about the movies, but moving on, you, can you, can you please for the, for the court, tell us what your job. You're a man of media, right? I'm a man of media, yeah.

You've worked TMZ. Now you work at The Ringer. All right. So, media loves list. Could you just tell me on our own website. We both work at The Ringer. Can you tell me the top four greatest superhero movies of all time?

I don't know. I didn't see that list. The Ringer ranked, this is from one to four, The Dark Knight, Black Panther number two, Avengers End Game, number four of the Avengers. Not bad.

Coming in at number four. Rolling Stone, my own place of work. Can you guess where the Avengers ranked? Where? On their list of the greatest superhero movies of all time. I don't know. 41. Can you tell me where Black Panther ranked?

I'm not sure. Number one. Rotten tomatoes, which you already brought up. First of all, hold on for a second. First of all, hold on for a second. If I could interject for the court. That right there should render that list. Objection, he already talked.

Objection? Just answer the questions. Mr. Lundins, continue your question. in place. Did you bring up Rotten Tomatoes earlier? That's nuts. On their list.

On their list of the greatest superhero movies of all time, can you tell me where the Avengers was? I don't know. Number 16, can you tell me where Black Panther was? Where? Number three.

Anyway, only a few more questions for you. You've been amazing, amazing. Thank you. You brought up rotten tomatoes. I did. And the audience,

you compared the audience scores. How much people liked the movie? Yes, I did. What do you talk about generally on higher learning? What is higher learning about as a show? It's a show about pop culture and political topics. It's a show that looks at those things on the Ringer Network

every Monday and Tuesday and Friday you should I say through the black cultural lens. Through the black cultural lens. Yeah. Then why would you talk about rotten tomatoes in the audience score and almost brush past? You brought up a little bit. The fact that the audience score many of the time

are from a fan base that likes to target movies that feature black characters, women characters, POC characters. Is there any reason you brushed past that when you were very long-winded about a lot of other things? The reason why I brushed past is because I don't think it tells the whole story here.

The reason why I had cast on as as a witness is because I believe and I've been in many conversations, not just with him, but with other people who,

shockingly, were too afraid to, like, come on the podcast, that Black Panther is a good movie, not a great one, but that we can't really speak on that because of the fact that we don't want to be seen

as traitors are negative to the culture. It's a very familiar refrain, and I think that the, audience score reflects not only some of the vitriol that you're talking about, but people who have some of those attitudes as well. Very well put. My last question for you, as I like to ask every witness that has hopped on the stand today,

could you please rank the Avengers movies from greatest to least greatest? Avengers in-game number one, Avengers Infinity War number two, OG Avengers number three, Avengers, Age of Ultron number four. And you're a big fan of Captain America Civil War, which is pretty much an Avengers movie in everything but title. Where would you slot that in

if you had to slot that into that list? I will put a Civil War on the same level as the OG Avengers. If I had to choose one, I will put Avengers before it. So I would then put Avengers, then Civil War, then Age of Ultron. Interesting.

It seems that we have three men today. who looked at me as if I had lost my mind saying that Black Panther was better than the Avengers, who can, neither of, any of them cannot admit that it's the best Avengers film because it's not. The defense, the defense rests. And now I will like to ask

for brief closing arguments, first from the prosecution, misrelation. First of all, I'd like to thank the court. I'd like to thank the midnight mob and the midnight riders for listening. I would like to commend counsel, defense counsel on a very spirited argument. But I'd like to remind people of something here.

Defense counsel in his arguments very eloquently established why Black Panther is a very important character in the history of comic books. Defense counsel, very eloquently established why the movie Black Panther is a very important movie culturally for representation.

Defense counsel, who I might add, is hiding his true feelings about the movie, Shang Shi for the same reason. The court says no. For the same reason that a lot of people hear their true feelings about the woman, black Panther so he knows what we're talking about. Okay, defense counsel. Proved all of these things. But one thing the defense counsel did

not prove was that Black Panther was a more enjoyable, better movie than the Avengers. The prosecution would say it wouldn't matter if Black Panther Avengers was the seventh best Avengers movie.

that is beyond the point, that is beside the point, that is under and around the point. The point of this argument was, is 2012 the Avenger better than Black Panther? We, the prosecution, have attempted to prove the fact that not only is Black Panther inflated in terms of its goodness because of its cultural relevance, but that a lot of people look at the movie

as an art piece and not a superhero film. Not once has the defense even attempted to argue on the merits that Black Panther is better than the Avengers. We've talked about Ryan Cougler and what kind of movies he's made There was a shot at Josh Whitton. Who deserves it?

I was waiting for that one. Who deserves it? There was all types of pedig foggy. There was all types of obfuscating. But never once did the defense even attempt to argue on the merits of his own film. Did we hear about CGI? Did we hear about fight scenes? Did we hear about comedy?

Did we hear about performances? Did we hear about pacing? Did we hear about the cast? Did we hear about the arc? I would say that in Black Panther, your hero has no arc. Once again, he helped the CIA kill his first cousin. But we heard about none of those things

because the defense knows deep down that you can't argue those things. against the OG Avengers. We have a Hulk, puny God, the circle shot in New York all around them. The death of Colson.

Ten bucks. This is not the weirdest thing you've ever seen. Boom, give me the tenor. Why? Because the hel of carrier went up, baby. Not to mention,

fucking Thanos is in the movie. I would say that when we're talking about villains, as much smoke as the Chattari gets, the actual villains of the Avenger movie is Thanos. You know what I'm done. Mr. Holmes. I still remember the night. We found out about Chadwick Postman's passing.

I was alone in my room, tears in my eyes, shock running through my veins. I had to write his obituary for Rolling Stone. My hand's still shaking. Now, a lot of people wonder why I'm so cold on The Midnight Boys. Coke baby Chuck has no heart. But I do. And I'll never forget that moment.

It reaffirmed why I love these stories. Because I can still vividly remember sitting in Court Street Theater in Brooklyn in tearing up as Chattelkills, as you can see, I am not dead. Black Panther is more than a movie. It's more than one comic book property of many. It's more than the Avengers could ever be. Why is that?

Because Black Panther shows us black people in all of our glory. We're nuanced individuals, but oppression often robs us of that nuance. And thus, we're seen as a monolith. Black Panther is a movie featuring generations of black people, brother and brother, father and son, mother and son, King and Usurper. On the biggest platform possible,

it's a story of how we want to leave, the differences in blackness in the Americas versus abroad. Their responsibility we have to people who look like us. The radical ends we will fight for to liberate our people. Avengers could never be that because Avengers never had to be that. Black Panther isn't just a better superhero movie, but a better film than 2012's Avengers because it dares to ask difficult questions

that are rarely depicted in big budget blockbusters. I'll never forget the tears I shed in that theater as Dechalla is reunited with his father. In his words of warmth, I hadn't felt since I lost my own. I will never forget the tears I shed watching video after video of Chadwick connecting with fans because Black Panther met so much to them. The prosecution was very eloquent,

but at no point did they actually get to what makes Avengers such a powerful thing. They couldn't even agree on it being the best Avengers film. But what I want you guys to leave today with is knowing that movies can change the world. But most importantly, movies can change. change us. As you can see, I'm not dead.

Chat with Boseman forever, Wakanda forever. I rest my case. All right. And with that, I would like to thank the court's time and the jury and direct our bailiff to direct this jury to where they can cast their vote and what to do next. Now the case is in your hands. Head to the ringer social feeds to cast your vote. and decide who wins the case of the Avengers versus Black Panther. That has been Midnight Court. Thank you so much. Charles, that was really beautiful. You guys ain't.

That was literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard of my entire life. Don't, first of all, don't get mad because I put y'all on the summer jam screen. Don't get mad. I promise. I promise. I didn't, you don't need it to come together like both on. I said it. The question, well, what was the best movie at no point?

Did you make any attempts to be like, this movie is better than this movie? Because, I mean, like, we can say it. Like, we can say or say, important stada-da-da. Like, you know what did you do. I didn't tell you what to make this movie better. I brought it up. I mean, again, it's not, it's not my argument to make, right? Open arguments.

First of all, by the way, they are not. They are the judge in the baby. Whoa. I could. Let me get this off real quick. You looked at me wild. So when I was preparing for this, I'm like,

Jomey's going to get it, he's going to get a vineyard. That's fine. I mean, that's what happens. You can't duck this smoke. Fuck that. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back

in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger,

and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dunton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce, and some very tasty limited time flavors.

New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu, Chantilly, cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. As an update to our somewhat chaotic DC conversation earlier, it was just announced while we were actually doing this podcast, which was as much fun as I've had doing the podcast, it was very long time. That H.

Bill Max is axing 70% of its development staff. Cut. 70% of its development staff. First of all, very sad for those people in their families. Development is a very tough game in this city. So very sad for them. Jomey, you know a lot about this situation. What do you feel like that means?

I mean, I think what I read, because I think I saw the same thing you did, that a lot of their scripted shows are getting up out of here. And so that is a problem. if you like the scripted HBO Mac stuff. DC, not even, like, we're thinking like,

this is even bigger than that, like hacks, industry. If you like, all of that is under a microscope. And so we are looking at, you know, you guys said nuclear option earlier.

We're looking at a, just a cataclysm of content that we may never, we have not seen and may never see again. A lot of the stuff that we like to watch, lot of stuff they would like to consume. A lot of the hashtag content might be on its way out. And that's tough.

There's no other way to put it. That's just, that's tough. I will say, like, we joke a lot on The Midnight Boys, but, yo, like, for everybody lost their job today, a lot of talented people were making a lot of great television, a lot of great movies. So, yeah, like, hearts go out to you because, yeah, this just really, really sounds. That's terrible. One more thing before we go.

One more small thing. explain to me I'm actually unsure of the realignment that's happening Jumby between HBO this motherfucker sitting up in terms of HBO and HBO Max. So the HBO Max

brand we feel like is ending. Yes. Yes. It seems to be it seems to be that like at least a merger based on the discovery acquisition has kind of just been like okay if we can't offshore this to HBO

proper, the HBO Max brand is kind of going to be going by the wayside, it seems. It looks like this is kind of going to be in the aftermath of its pandemic, like, major release slate of like not releasing anything in theaters, only on streaming services and then recouping

certain parts of the catalog to go to HBO proper. Because they actually also quietly removed six HBO Max exclusive streaming movies from the service today. Okay, so hold on for a second. Just just so we know. And it's just so

this for a little clarification. I had HBO. Okay, HBO Now was on my phone, but I had HBO Plus, was it called? HBO Go. Right. HBO Go. Yeah.

I feel like HBO Go was on the phone now. One of them was on the phone. Anyway, yeah, yeah. I had the HBO streaming service. That automatically became HBO Max. Yeah, they folded together, yes. Okay. So what happens to that now?

I want to say, and again, not of this is just hearsay things I've, you know, just talking, and being online talking to people, da-da-da, is that that, like, all that HBO stuff goes to Discovery Plus. And now you have to get, you have to use your Discovery Plus.

There's an HBO tab that you would go and look at that stuff on. Not real. It was like, imagine Disney. It's absolutely like, but HBO, none of this is official. None of this is actually. None of this is official. None of this is official.

Speculation. We were talking about what the possible business model could be and where the fandom content sits in there. So that's what we're, yeah, right. It seems like HBO Max as a brand is being dissolved. The HBO that we have for years is going to basically be what it is. And it seems like it's just going to be a hub on the Discovery Stream. And the reason why I say like Disney Plus is because Disney Plus has a big thing.

And then they have boom, boom, boom, boom, Marvel, Star Wars, Nat Geo, all of that stuff like that. Well, like on the HBO Max, you know, you have the Looney Tunes Hub. You do have that. You do. And originally we thought, like, okay, you get a discovery hub, you know, that works, because HBO Max is the bigger, has, you know, way more subscribers at a-da. But they're flipping it because the guy in charge is a discovery plus guy. So he's like, hey, man, we're going to fold John to us instead of us folding into y'all,

which, again, doesn't really make sense. But I'm not in charge, right? I'm just a guy. I got you. Okay. What we're going to do is we're going to try to. We're here at the Midnight Boys, we're going to try to keep our hands and around this shakeup and we will make sure that we have answers for you guys and what the shakeup at HBO Max means for your favorite show.

So we'll, we'll be on that. We'll hopefully be able to get somebody in here and give us some definitive answers here pretty soon. You guys, that was a lot of fun. That is a wrap. Next Monday, the House of R returns to discuss the new Netflix series. Sandman, next Wednesday, the Midnight Boys will return. Once again, producer credits. our producer, judge and witness, is Steve Alton-Joy.

Join me a dinner on. Hashtack, hashtag, what you're going to do when Al-a-Jomi Jew? How are you saying? Al-A-Jumilo-Ju. Al-A-Lu-A-Ju. Hashtack, what you're going to do when Al-Lu-A-Jomil-Ju comes for you? Yeah, no, no, no. No, no, that's that.

See, it was funny. It was jokes. everyone's having a good time. Ha ha ha ha ha. I'm putting my foot down. Under no circumstances. That's going in. That's not,

but like that's, what does that mean? That's how old. That's the little. Bad boys. That's bad boys. What you're going to do? What you're going to do? What you're going to do?

That's not. On social media. No. Uh, me. Additional production from Arjuna, walkabout. Walk about. Still walking.

in Vegas. It's 100 degrees outside of Vegas as he's still walking around. Charles, take us out. Midnight Court is a wrap. We're about to leave. And I really, really apologize for having to do you like that steam. Before we go, I just want to say, like, you know, this, all of this is, you know, definitely, like, disappointed because there are a lot of things that we would like to see in the future. And, you know, they may or not, you know, come out in that.

That's really sad, but I just want to be very clear about one thing. If Young Justice doesn't come back for a new season. That's the first thing they should get rid of. Yeah, that actually is. See, see down. That's the first thing they should give a lot. And this is how I know y'all not really like, we're not really friends. Like, y'all, if y'all love me, if y'all really cared, then y'all would want that to come back.

Jomi's bad luck, juju is probably going to go through the roof. If Jomey likes a show, if Jomey loves a show, that shit is out of here. I can't. It really is. It really is. Jomey likes what you did. You're probably decanoninized at this point. Jomey, I want to hear you talking about Avatar ever again

because I'm trying to get these movies. Oh, you know, I would just, yeah, no, that would hurt. That would hurt a lot. Also, Jomey, if you could really start to like James Cameron's avatar, I would really appreciate that because I don't need four of us. I'm not going to sell my hater on James Cameron's avatars. Do you like James Cameron's avatar? I liked it in theaters when I was like 11 and I was like,

this is the greatest thing I ever seen. And then I watched that at the crib, but I was like, hey, man. So wait, why isn't he a fucking home? By the way, Here's the thing about Avatar. Great plain movie. It's nothing but a plain movie. Has it?

Is it? Is it? How the politics of that movie, H.O.? No. No. For hell. Let me tell you something right now. They make one more movie.

So look, they just kept, so they just kept taking this archetype of white people fixing everything and just kept going further and further and further to they got to deep space with it. At first it was like, hey, man, take a white dude, put him over in samurai land. He teaches the samurai how to be true samurai. Boom. Then it was, it was furngully.

It was fucking in the past. Van, what's your next installment in the white people fix it series? Bro, like, it would have to be white people fix like time travel. Like, white people fix, like, the multiverse. Because, like, we got, so white people figure out the help white people, white people solve racism. You know what I mean? And so then it takes white people. The Navi are there trying to do that thing,

but they can't fucking figure out how to beat the white people until they get deep in space. A white man has to come and show them how to do it. It's also crazy that can you imagine pitching the film? And I like Avatar. I like it too. You're just like, yeah, the white people, though, they're going to go into the natives' bodies.

They're going to go into, like, they're going to be like that. It's going to be like a white person inside of the, you know, a person of color's body. Right. And the execs are like, he's a genius. Give, like, gremlin. A billion dollars. A billion dollars, James.

A billion. And then it's like, look, I get it. But maybe if he'd have gone there and he'd have like helped Lazanlo's character ride on the back of the Tarouk Maktow. Like, it's like, he was like, he was the only one. Everybody, they're all scared of Taruk Moktile or whatever because of Taruch. because they fear to root. But of course he doesn't fear to root

because he's white. He fears nothing. He fears nothing except accountability. White savory movies, man. I'm sorry, Steve. But look, but look, some of them are good. We can't fucking front.

Dangerous minds is good. You know what I mean? The substitute, which is kind of a white savior movie. Some of the white saviour movie, they're not all bad. Some of the white savioury movies hit. It's fine.

We can admit it. Batman is like a white savior. You don't think so? I mean, I will be honest, there's a lot of copaganda and, like, rich billionaire playboy comes to, like, save the hood. Yeah, of course, but we fuck with it.

We suspend our disbelief. Well, I tell you what? I know what we know wouldn't happen if that was Wayne Jenkins under that suit. That motherfucker would be at jail. Okay? If that was, you let them even think that Batman was black

a thousand years. Hey, the fuck you doing here. I got the criminals. So what? I don't you go back to the low bottoms. All right. Wait, no. Well, we're still talking about

White's Jeffrey movies. Was Freedom Writers good? I like it. Wait, which one? About, about... It's like Hillary Swank. She goes to like the school. Have not seen that.

Fuck no I liked it. I just remember showing us in school and then I was like I will say school. That was like the first time I had questions like

what was this white lady doing? What was the football one that they showed us in school all the time? I can't remember. The big black guy? The big black guy? The longest yard?

No, who gets adopted by the white woman. Oh, that's the one. Oh, yeah. The blind side. Blonde side. That's the worst one.

Hey, that's the worst one. That was the one. To be honest with you, to be honest with you, that was the, That was the one that made you look at all the other ones with the side of it. Because it's like, okay.

That was the worst one. That was the worst one. That one was the one to where it was like, so, you know, the last samurai came out and all of those. And you're like, whatever. But then when the blonde side came out, I'm like, no, man, this don't feel right. When the white woman goes to the hood and starts yelling at people, I'm like, she starts yelling at that movie looked like a thing the Tropic Thunder would make fun of. Yeah.

Yeah. She just, she just, oh, that's big Mike. Let's give them a place to live. By the way, shout out to Michael Orr, but the story in real life is, you know, they wanted him to go to Ole Miss. So that's what I was. It's not like they was just bring Big Mike in. I'm surprised that didn't start like a whole fucking era of white people driving around in the hood trying to kidnap big niggas. No, man.

Time out. Like, look at them. Look at it. Longest yard challenge? Hey, Carol, what's our shooting you think he wears? 15. We got to have for it. Blindside challenge.

Blindside challenge. Can we get to Midnight court? Think I'm a fucking cancer. Midnight court. Okay. This is a black panda. Let's do it. Feels like every product claims real protein these days.

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