The Ringer-Verse - 'Black Panther' Midnight Court, 'Army of the Dead', and Nerd News | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: May 21, 2021

The Midnight Boys discuss the recent news regarding a new Batman animated series and how it might stack up alongside the rest of the animated DC universe (03:09). Then Charles and Van head back to Midnight Court to present their cases on whether or not 'Black Panther' is a top-five MCU film (11:57), all before they give their thoughts on Zack Snyder's latest film 'Army of the Dead' (45:49). Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduil.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Welcome into the ringerverse. This is of course the ringers nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Now, you're in the ringerverse. It's Friday. And that means you're joined by myself, Van Lathen, of the higher learning podcast with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay here on The Ringer, and Charles Holmes, the one and only host of the Ringer Midnight Show.

Music show. Damn, man. You're already on your bullshit. Right, already on my bullshit. Of the Ringer music show. But together, we are known as The Midnight Boys. That's what I'm talking about.

about. The Ring or Midnight show would be a good show, too. That would be dope. The Ringer Midnight show? No, don't pitch them on that because then they're going to be like, all right, y'all have been doing accomplished shit. Like, we need you to do Sam for Midnight for everything. Right, right, right, right. But Ringer Midnight News, Ringer Midnight Sports, the whole midnight brand over here at the Ringgway. Now, here on the Ring of Verse, Charles and I, the Midnight Boys, we are eagerly awaiting anticipated Loki show that's coming to you in a couple of weeks. But while we're doing this, we're going to take a place, we're going to take a look shatsy and some other things going on in the fandom space.

Of course you know that you deal with us here on Friday and on Tuesday you got the House of Mall. I always want to say Mall because I'm thinking too much of the show by the podcast. The House of Rorya Mall. The House of Rory and Mall on Tuesday where she's over there covering Star Wars, The Bad Batch, and doing her job holding up the fandom space for the Ring ofverse. But for us today, we're going to get into a little nerd news. a lot happening out here in these nerd streets. And we're also, we're going to midnight court, okay?

Ooh! Today we're going to midnight court. I know, Charles, you are fired up about this midnight court. Oh, man, I got to bounce back. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's been a rough couple weeks, you know, Zachary Levi, Zachary, uh, Quinto, Zachary Pinto, I don't care.

Charles Holmes is a five. You know what I'm saying? I want to do a whole episode on Zachary, uh, Ackery Quinto, though. He was a couple of different places, and, you know, good actor, good actor. But you don't see as much as though Quinto as you used to see. Good actor, though. We're also going to talk a little bit about Zach Snyder's Army of the Dead on Netflix.

We're going to do that towards the tail end of the podcast. And so now that you guys are strapped in that the introductions are over, it's time to announce the starting lineups. And this starting lineup is Nerd News Minute. Line News in the D.C. space this week. Live news in the DC space. Before we do that, let's do a quick postmort on Armchair CEO. I listen back to the podcast.

Listen to armchair CEO of the DC universe. Charles, do you feel like we fixed the DC universe last week? I think we both realized how hard it is to make a universe. I think we did a better job than the DC CEOs right now, but probably not our best work. Probably not our best work. It's tough, man, because DC, you know, DC is in such a precarious place. They got stuff coming out.

They got stuff in the can. What do you stop? What do you start? And then what are fans? It seems like now, whereas Iron Man came out and there was like no pressure on Marvel. It seems like now everything DC does, it's got so much pressure wrapped into it because it, people are waiting for it to fail almost. It's honestly almost like a failing franchise.

You know, like, Knicks fans had to like, they went through the, through the desert, you know, for a while. over a decade, I think. So it's kind of like, at a certain point, it's harder to turn around a franchise than you think. You know what I'm saying? It's true. But also, that actually works in their favor because I'd argue that Aquaman is basically the movie version

of the next season from this year. I would say Aquaman is like a strong four seed of a movie. But everybody is celebrating like you won the championship because it's been so long since they were able to do anything. Aquaman is a strong four seat. Maybe even a five seed of a movie. Aquaman's not bad. Aquaman's fun to watch,

but Aquaman ain't winning no championships. But a lot of people acted like it was a championship film. Wonder Woman is closer to the Utah Jazz version of a movie. Okay. Very strong, very, very strong. But at the end of the day, you know what a championship film is and Wonder Woman wasn't won. They don't have a championship film yet.

Like, I know it's going to get me in hot water, but let's be real. They don't got a championship yet. D.C. does not have a championship film, at least this iteration of D.C., Obviously the Dark Night is a championship film. Oh, no, no, no, no. We're just talking about, like, everything post Nolan.

Yeah, yeah, I would agree. Now, news is that there's a new Batman animated series from Bruce Tim, Matt Reeves, and JJ Abrams. Coming to HBO Max. Charles, were you a fan of the old Batman animated series? Who isn't a fan of the Bruce Tim, like, the OG animated series? That's one of the greatest, like, superhero animated stories of all time. Not just, like, not even animated stories.

This is one of the best superhero interpretations of Batman of all time. My only thing is I feel like every single Batman show is like in the shadow of that. So like I'm excited, but I'm also like, damn, like Bruce Tim is back. That's good. Will they have, you know, a good show? I think so. Are you excited, though? Were you a fan of this show growing up?

I was. I definitely was a fan of it. I think this show will be better than the old show. Man, you already with the wildest taste. Oh, wow. It ain't even been five minutes. Why is it? It's not wild.

It's not wild. Why isn't wild? Because I think that D.C. has perfected animated storytelling. I think the majority of the D.C. animated movies are fantastic. Oh, we disagree on this. We disagree. You don't like the D.C. animated universe. I love their TV shows.

I love the animated TV series. Like, I think Harley Quinn is dope. Young Justice is dope. Like, anything like that's a series is dope. I don't think the movies are, they're not bad, but they're, just not for me. Oh, I love them. No, man.

I can leave them. I love them. Like, to me, okay, so the only big misses for me from them was the killing joke. They did not get that right. That's very hard to adapt, but that one wasn't very good. But a lot of the other ones, son of Batman, bad blood, red hood, Justice League Dark, Justice League Apocalypse. War. Apocalypse War

I did not like that one. Everybody's like, this is the one. I was like, no, bro. Justice League versus Teen Titans was amazing. What? You didn't like you like Batman Gotham by Gaslight? I don't even think I saw that one. I tapped that one. That one is super

dope. No, man, keep giving me Harley Quinn. Keep giving me young justice. Keep giving me like the TV shows. No, that movie shit. Like, keep that over there. Keep that. You didn't dig those. I love all of those. Me and Kalika would be super excited. Like they're good. I see the quality. It's just not

from me, man. I personally, there you go. Whoa, whoa. Wait, do you like Young Justice? No, I didn't see the Young Justice TV show. I did not watch the Young Justice TV show. I did. Come on the TV show side of things. I watched. I watched Harley Quinn. Good. Which, so good. Like, so good. No right being as good as it is. No right. Right. But there are other movies. They did an All-Star Superman movie.

they, a lot of them, Flashpoint film? Did you watch the Flashpoint animated film? No, I told you I tapped out. I watched a bunch of the beginning ones and I'm like, I'm not watching this again. I remember I was watching like, I forget which one.

It was the Teen Titans one when they got Damien in it with Dick and like all that shit. I was like, no, bro. This is not for me. Throne of Atlantis I didn't really like. I just, it's, you know, sometimes hard to watch Aquaman-centric stuff.

You're an Aquaman hater, bro. No, I'm not. You hate Aquacuan. It's not that I hate Aquaman. It's not that I hate him. But Aquaman is like a, he's like the sixth man of the Justice League. You know, you want Aquaman to come in there

and give you quality minutes when Batman and them not around, you know? Are you excited for the injustice gods among us movie that they just announced? Of course. I think it's impossible to mess up an injustice movie. All right. It's Batman versus Superman. Like, how are you going to mess it up? It's like messing up civil war.

Like, we know what it is. Right. You know what I'm saying? Just don't get too fancy. with it. Yeah, don't get too fancy. Don't overdo it. You've got all the source material you need there. I think personally it's impossible to

like to mess it up. I think that they have so much, you got volumes and volumes and stuff. Figure out what, especially since you're doing it animated and you don't have any of the constraints of doing it live action, which some people

might find daunting. But to me, get together, figure the film out, figure out which, how deep you're going to go into the whole thing, where are you going to stop? And I think it works, I think it works perfectly. I would rather it be a TV series. I feel like letting it breathe, letting some of the tension between like Batman and Superman and the factions

could honestly be better than trying to jam pack like a 90-minute movie. Yeah, I mean, you could be right. But I also think that you could do multiple movies. All right, fair, fair. You could do multiple movies on it if that's kind of what you wanted to do. But, you know, I don't know. I'm excited about that. That's something that's exciting for me.

So we'll see how it goes. We'll see what ends up happening. We'll see how they get it done. But it seems as if DC is leaning into its animated stuff in order to build an audience and build loyalty to it. Because the DC animated stuff has been a big part of DC, but it's almost kind of been like the bastard child. It's the red-headed stepchild of the DC.

To be fair, even though I'm not like a big fan of the movies, I will say the movies do something that the live action movies don't, which is they don't mess up the stories that we love too much. Like they're not trying to ever do too much. Like the best of them are like, all right, you love the story already. We're going to animate it. We'll throw in a couple extra scenes and boom.

And I'm just like, oh, man, if the live action followed that template, DC would be a much better place. Much better place. Much better place. If the live action films just kind of went that way, they went that way. All right. Now, DC animated, you like it or you hate it, you love it. We'll see what happens.

I think that this Batman animated series with all these creatives is going to actually be able to achieve as much or if not more than the old one. But we have to step aside real quick. We have to step aside from talking about DC because we got to go to court. We got to do something that my cousin does too much, which is go to court every time. Because can you send me down? So can you send me something? I just need to get out. I don't want to make sure it hit before the weekend

because I don't want to have to spend the two days in jail because the judge is not going to be there. Whatever. We got to go to midnight court, okay? And you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to turn it over to Jomey. This week on Midnight Court, Charles Holmes accuses Van Lathen

of being out of his mind saying Black Panther is not a top five MCN. you film. All right. It's time for opening arguments. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You don't get to say that it's time to open the arguments.

You're not the judge here. What kind of fucking kangaroo quarter are we in? I'm signing with Steve now. This is light skin fucking racism out here. The light skins can't be judges. Fuck you, man. You're not a judge.

You're a lawyer. Order. Order. Decorum. Decorum. We will now hear opening arguments. The prosecution, Charles Holmes, you have the floor. Thank you, Judge Steve. Yeah, at their best, I think movies can fundamentally change the way we see the world.

Now, I'm not going to get up here and tell you that Black Panther is an amazing movie because what it did for representation or what it did for breaking the racist class ceilings in Hollywood. Those are just the results of what an amazing movie can do. What I'm here to fight for is that what makes Black Panther such a great MCU entry is that it does what so few MCU movies can do. It makes us believe so fundamentally in a world that is different from our own that makes us have a clear vision of something better. in the same way that when people were seeing Star Wars for the first time, it made them believe in this space opera, in the same way that Christopher Reeves made us all believe a man could fly. Black Panther made us believe in such a human story

that it transcended superheroes. It transcended the MCU. It touched people. It changed their lives. And to say that it's not a top five MCU entry, just to troll people? Just to be a contrarian? No, no, no.

I can't have that. Chadwick Bozeman did too much. Ryan Coogler did too much. And today, I am going to prove to Mr. Lathen in this court that Black Panther deserves way more honor than it has been getting from Old Man Van.

I see the floor. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, of the midnight court audience. A lot of what counsel Charles Holmes said is true. Black Panther is a sublime piece of art. It is. It's a cultural and social statement.

It's a movie that has really several different layers of storytelling in terms of what it was attempting to do, the narratives it was attempting to connect, and it has top-flight creatives doing. What we're going to attempt to prove today is that for everything that Black Panther is, there are some things that we all know Black Panther isn't. And when we talk about the top five movies in the MCU and when we're honest with ourselves, we know that in good faith and good conscious, you cannot put Black Panther amongst them. If we were to make a separate category

about cultural superhero movies, Black Panther is A number one. If we were to do a separate category about the best superhero films that are grounded in Oakland, California, Black Panther would be number one. If we were to do other superhero movies about the best, other categories,

shall I say, about the best times that we've seen Michael B. Jordan, Black Panther would be number one. But if we're comparing Black Panther as a film itself to some of the things, singular superhero achievements of

the MCU, I submit to this court that it would not be amongst the top five experiences in the MCU. And I'm saying that it's not because Black Panther is bad. It's not because Black Panther

is possibly submit that you buy from the guy on the ninth floor of your dorm, freshman year at college, it's because the rest of the MCU is so good. We're talking about groundbreaking, perspective shifting, amazingly detailed superhero classics that you have to bring your A-game to be a part of.

And I'll submit to this court that Black Panther has brought its B-plus A-minus game. Thank you very much. We shall now hear the presentation of evidence. Charles Holmes, you will be going first. Mr. Lathen, second. Thank you. Now, I would like to present some hard-hitting truths right now to the court.

First of all, I'd like to bring one witness up to this stand very quickly. Mr. Kevin Feigey, who is the art. architect of everything that we love so much. And I have one question for Mr. Feige. Would you say that Black Panther, you know, is among the top movies that the MCU has offered the public? The movie finished. And I looked over at Ryan.

I said, that's the best movie we've ever made. Now, I have so much respect for Mr. Feige as someone who is arguably one of the most responsible figures for making the MCU podcast. possible. Does Mr. Lathen thinks that he knows more than Mr. Feige? Does he have such an ego in that watermelon-sized head that he thinks that he knows more than Mr. Fygey? Objection. Subjection. Sustain. Objection. Projorative personal comments. Objection. Strike that from the record, Jomey. Now, Mr. Lathen. said it himself.

Black Panther is such a rich and detailed narrative. It works on multiple levels, people. It asks us, thematically, what does it mean to be a ruler? What responsibility do developed nations have to those that are less developed? It asks us to think about the sins of the father. Because of this,

it works on such a deeper level than a lot of the other superhero movies that we've seen from the MCU. even if we look at how it was constructed, you're telling me that Black Panther doesn't have one of the most talented cast of any movie, not just an MCU movie.

We're talking about Chadwick Boseman, Michael B. Jordan, Lupita Nyongo, Daniel Kalua, Winston Duke, and Angela Bassett, come on. I find it very, very hard to believe that we are going to denigrate all of these people who made such an amazing film. When we're talking about the weaknesses

of some of the other MCU movies, Come on. Black Panther systematically shows us that it is such a well-creative narrative that it doesn't have villain issues. Michael B. Jordan's killmonger is one of the best villains in the MCU, period. When we're talking about the most quotable lines in any of the MCU films, I'd argue that Black Panther is the most quotable. People don't even have to see Black Panther to know what Wakanda Forever means. Can you say that about most of the other films in the MCU?

I think not. But finally, I think the ultimate success of Black Panther is that it's the rare superhero story that is powerful enough to mean whatever you need it to mean. I'm not here to talk about what it did culturally. I'm talking about the fact that anybody can sit down at this movie and can see it as a successful superhero movie, a successful spy story, a successful hero's journey.

It's the type of movie that anybody can watch. It's not just an episode within the MCU. It means more than that. And if later, when we talk about our top five MCU movies, all of mine, and I can't speak to Mr. Lathen, I've chosen ones that broke the barrier for the MCU, the ones that truly changed how we saw superhero movies. And I would argue Black Panthers at the top of the list.

Thank you, Judge. Thank you, uh, jury. Judge, since you allow counsel to go on and extended soliloquy after, uh, promoting his evidence, will you allow me to redirect based upon what he just said, please? I will allow that. Yes. Thank you. Number one, I understand what Kevin Feigy has said, but can I offer, uh, an argument,

cross evidence for why Kevin Feigy said this? I would like to present Exhibit A for the for for for my side white guilt. So I like I would like to place this exhibit of white guilt for Kevin Feigy saying what he said. Also, I would like to present exhibit B fear of being canceled. Objection, Your Honor. Like he's leading a witness. I'm not leading. What I'm saying is what the fuck was Kevin Feigy supposed to say?

Objection. Mr. Feige, you do not need to answer that. Let's stick to what Kevin Feigy said, Your Honor. We can say what Kevin Feigy said, but Kevin Feigy has read the Twitter T-Leaves. And in that is, before I get to my evidence, in that I would like to talk about something that we don't talk about with Black Panther.

Black Panther is our favorite movie in the MCU. A lot of people's favorite movie in the MCU because we wanted it to be. We wanted to love Black Panther. Panther more than any other film in the MCU. There's an emotional component to Black Panther being a lot of people's favorite MCU movie. There's an emotional component to Black Panther being in people's top five. And here's the deal with that.

I am not looking at this with emotion. I'm not even talking about the quality of Black Panther itself. I'm asking people, is Black Panther better than Captain America Winter Soldier? Is Black Panther better than Avengers' endgame? Avengers Infinity War. Is Black Panther better than Thor Ragnarok, Captain America's Civil War? I'm asking you to ask yourself these questions. My evidence that I'll present right now is a scene not from Black Panther, but from Captain

America, the Winter Soldier. The scene is the assault on Nick Fury when he is inside. of his SUV by height. Get me out of here. Systems offline. Then reboot damage. That scene is exhilarating. That scene is engrossing.

That scene is fantastic. That scene is the third or fourth best scene in that movie. And I would ask you guys right now, is there a scene in Black Panther that even comes close to that? Is there a scene in Black Panther that comes close to on your left? Is there a scene in Black Panther that comes close to Iron Man and Bucky fighting, or excuse me, Captain America and Bucky fighting against Iron Man?

when you think about Black Panther as a moviegoer, you think about all of these themes and all of these things that make sense to you. But when we're talking about these movies as compared to one another, as compared to one another, I would say that there are movies that are more developed, more fun,

easier to watch than Black Panther. And I also say something else about counsel's point to a hero's journey. I'd argue that the weakest part of Black Panther is Tchala. I'd argue that the one part of Black Panther that they actually failed in because so many of the things in the movie are done perfectly is the hero's journey itself.

The movie is pop and sizzle. Pop and sizzle when Shuri is on the screen. The movie is pop and sizzle when Kilmonger is on the screen. The movie is pop and sizzle when Abbottu was on the screen. But the movie, in Baku, should I say, but the movie is kind of just there when we're getting too much of chichala. They actually made him, in my opinion, a supporting character in his own film. So I would like to answer some questions that Mr. Lathen had.

First of all, when we're talking about best scenes, iconic scenes. Now, I would argue that Black Panther has some of the most iconic scenes, not just in the MCU, but in the movies for the last decade. Maybe we can play some. Steve, can you please play me the scene where Tichala returns to fight Kilmonger after their first battle? He's a Tucker! What's up? I never yielded it.

And as you can see, I am not dead. Now, there are very few movies that you can go to where the crowd screamed. The crowd could not be contained when they saw that moment. Steve, can you please play me the moment from when Kilmonger is about to die and he's with Tichala.

Just bury me in the ocean. with my ancestors that jumped from the ships because they knew death was better than bondage. Am I supposed to believe that that is not one of the best moments of dialogue from any villain in the MCU? Now, we could talk about other moments.

On your left, I would argue, Tachalas I Never Freeze is just as funny. You're a call! Objection! Objection! I gave you your time, then. Mr. Bumblehead, sit down. objection. I will also instruct Mr. Holmes

to not address Mr. Lathen's head as his head is not on trial here. Now, if we want to talk about some moments from some other things when we're talking about De Chala not being the biggest in his own movie, now I remember where I was when I saw Avengers Endgame and in the third act, when all of those heroes arrive,

Black Panther in various viewings, got the biggest response, okay? If we want to talk about someone stealing the movie and being in it for a couple seconds, that's the impact. Now, when we're talking about us as a people or marginalized communities wanting Black Panther to be so good that in our minds we give it a pass, now, I could say that we could say the same thing

about Captain Marvel because it showed that a woman could lead this movie. But just Captain Marvel, let me see. Is it the 12th highest grossing movie of all time and the only one that's technically a solo and origin story? No. To get to that, enough people, not just black people, enough people around the world need to believe in this story,

but want to invest in it, all right? Seven Academy Award nominations and three wins. Also the first MCU film to Garner and Oscar, you're telling me that all of that is just because collectively, every human on the face of the planet just wanted it to be good so we said it was good. The first superhero movie

to receive a best picture nomination. 1.3 billion at the box office. You're telling me everybody across the globe just wanted the movie to be the best thing ever so they were willingly just throwing their money at it. We just saw Falcon and the Winter Soldier and it didn't make $1.3 billion for Disney.

Okay? So I would like to say that when we're talking about this new phase of Marvel, Captain Marvel, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Wanda Vision, we're seeing new women, black people on the screen in the center. That just doesn't mean it's going to be successful. And last, but certainly, not least. We are not arguing that Black Panther is the best MCU movie. We're saying, and I'm arguing, that it is in the top five. So let's not compare it to if it's better than Captain America Winter Soldier or this movie or that movie. We are arguing, does it take its place as,

its rightful place on the throne in the top five? I will see the floor to Mr. Lathan. Your Honor, if I may, on redirect, once again, pejority. Once again, Mr. Holmes, you're dangerously close for being in contempt.

I'm sorry. I apologize. A couple of things. Number one, it's telling that counsel brought up Captain Marvel in this discussion, which is not a good movie. It's telling that Captain Marvel was brought up in this discussion. I would ask the ladies of the jury, when a point is made that Black Panther is the first superhero movie

to ever be nominated for Best Picture. The question I would ask you, is Black Panther better than a Dark Knight? is Black Panther better than Avengers Infinity War? Is Black Panther better than other superhero movies that have been right there that we have argued should have gotten the best picture nomination, should have gotten some love from the Academy?

The answer I think if we're asking ourselves is no, it's not better than those films. So the question would then be, why did it get a best picture nomination? The answer to me has to do not so much with the movie itself, but with the movie's very justified cultural impact and power. And that was rewarded by the academy. It was rewarded by the academy that so many people loved to film.

It was rewarded by the academy that the cast was so lush with great actors. It was rewarded by the academy that that was the trajectory that the movie was on. But I would ask you, when you say as a distinction that Black Panther is the first superhero movie to be nominated for Best Picture. Ask yourself as a superhero movie fan. Should it have been? Why was it? I'm not saying the Oscars go by year to year. So I'm not saying it in that year it shouldn't have been. What I'm asking you is, is that a real, is that a distinction that the movie really should hold based upon everything else that we've seen? Okay. And something else I'll say about Black Panther showing up. Black Panther getting the biggest

applause after on your left. I would direct people to the fact that he was the first person to show up. I would direct people to the fact that they didn't know how the rest of the Avengers were coming back. Of course the applause was going to be the loudest. He was the first person to step through. If we're comparing some of the things, some of the moments that he just talked about to Spider-Man dissolving.

I don't want to go. I don't want to go. I don't want to go. Look around your social media at the memeification of some of these moments. If you want to hear a theater howl, listen to a theater how when Cap summons a millionaire. If you want to hear a theater how, if you want to see people crying, if you want to see people going nuts, not that I didn't cry at the end of Black Panther, because I will submit.

to the court that I did. I will submit to the court that I did. But in my very objective view, I think that as it is compared to the rest of the MCU, it doesn't stand up in the top five. I'll rest and we can move on to our top five MCU. Before that, Judge Steve,

can I bring one more witness to the stand? Yes, you may. I would like Mr. Lathen to take the stand, please. This is highly unorthodox. Midnight court. That's what we're here for. Mr. Lathen, you can agree or disagree to this. Oh, I agree.

Because I know he's about to play. Yeah. Mr. Lathen, have you won an Academy Award recently? Yes. Can you please tell the people of the jury how that moment made you feel? It made me feel in. Same, baby. It was dope.

Yes, yes. Congratulations. It was well deserved. Now, Mr. Lathen, I would like to know, were you competing against all of the short movies throughout the years,

or were you competing in a specific year? I was competing in a specific year. And can you tell the people of the court how it feels when people try to belittle your accomplice? or try to compare you to winners of your. How does that make you feel for all of the work that you did on such a sublime piecework? The honest answer to that is now that we've won, we will be compared to other films in that category forever.

An award season is about comparison. That's the only purpose of it. Movies are competing against each other. So the minute that the standard is brought up about what was nominated, for what or what didn't get what, now you're saying you can't both use the nomination as a point that this movie is in some way

superior than other movies, then say, hey, this film can't be compared to movies that predated it because it's competing in a specific year. But when Black Panther was nominated for all of those Academy Awards, technically, was it competing against

movies that were released within that year or was it competing against all superhero movies of all time? It was competing against movies in that year. But if you use the- No, that's all I need. You answered the question. Thank you very much, Mr. Lathen. You answered the question.

Thank you very much. So my last question, and then I will let Mr. Lathen retire. Judge, am I not allowed to answer the questions thoroughly? He answered the question. You have been answering them thoroughly. Okay. Last but certainly not, Leith.

Do you now see the error of your ways that you are trying to compare Black Panther to other superhero movies when right now you are on trial for whether it is a top five MCU movie, not a top five superhero movie of all time, but a top five MCU movie.

No, I do not. And I'll tell counsel why and I'll tell the judge in the court, the judge in the court, why? When counsel, illustrious counsel, counsel with the appropriate size head, when counsel brought up that Black Panther was the only superhero film to ever be nominated for Black Panther, excuse me, for Best Picture, it wasn't stated as a movie within the MCU. It was used as an accolade for all superhero movies. So by that rationale and by that definition from council,

we decided as a team that we were going to compare Black Panther to other superhero movies that did not get nominated for Best Picture, but that no one would argue, no one would argue, weren't better than Black Panther is. So that is the reason why. And unless the council has something else to say about my head, I guess we can move on to our top five favorite MCU films. The court will now move on to both sides top five MCU rankings before we adjourn.

Judge, are we supposed to put these in order? Yes. Number one, Captain America, Winter Soldier. Number two, Guardians of the Galaxy. Number three, Thor Ragnarok, number four, Black Panther, and number five, Avengers Infinity War. My, top five. Number one, Winter Soldier. Number two, Avengers Endgame.

Number three, Thor Ragnarok. Number four, Avengers Infinity War. Number five, Captain America Civil War. But here's the thing about five. Five could be Captain America Civil War. Five could be Iron Man. Five could be Gardens of the Galaxy. But I still maintain that all three of those movies

are better than Black Panther. And that is where we disagree. I will now have closing statements from Mr. Lathen and Mr. Holmes. Thank you. And I thank everybody for listening to this today. It's maybe kind of reassess a lot of things, mainly the size of my head, my diet, things of that nature. This is my point. And I know how this is going to come off in the real Wakanda, which is black Twitter.

Okay. Where we have all the technology where we're faster, more capable, wittier. all of that. This is the point. Black Panther is an amazing film. It really is great. I myself was just praising Black Panther on another podcast. Shout out to Matt and Jack over at All of the Smoke. I love Black Panther. I love the movie. We are taking a film that is

probably the most unique film in the MCU and we're asking where does it stack up to the rest of the films in the MCU. And I'm going to ask, ladies and gentlemen of jury, people listening to this on Spotify where you can get your podcasts, how many times do you sit down and re-watch Black Panther? How many times have you seen Black Panther since Black Panther premiered on cable, was available on Disney Plus, and was in theater? How many times have you re-watched it?

I ask you this, MCU fans. Think about how many times you've sat down just for enjoyment, just for enjoyment and watch Black Panther. Compare that to Thor Racknerock. Compare that to Avengers Affinity War. Compare that to Avengers' Endgame. Compare that to the OG Iron Man. Compare that to Captain America Civil War.

Compare that to all of these different films. Think about it. When you're sitting down, you just want to have some fun. You just want to watch a good movie. You just want to pass some time. Think about it. Black Panther is a great MCU film. It is a great film.

And the MCU is so amazing that saying a movie comes in at six or seven all time out of the 20-some-odd films that the MCU has is not in any way an indictment of that film saying that that movie is even your favorite movie out of all of those films. It's not in any way an indictment of that film. But if you're talking about which ones just are good,

better, and best, think about how many times you sit down and watch Black Panther. I think you'll tell the tale. I think it'll tell the tale. I think if we all, I think part of us

being liberated and being able to talk about these things, is to be honest about them. Black Panther is a great movie, but the MCU has put forth some amazing movies. The MCU has put forth some incredible mind-bending, like genre-confronting moments. And I would say that if we use that standard, Black Panther is probably six or seven.

First, I want to say, thank you to the judge, the jury, Mr. Lathen, for making some good points. Right now, today, what I'm arguing for is about injustice. It's about talking to Black Twitter and trying to have a fight over something that shouldn't be a fight to begin with.

One of the most life-altering moments, my life, as a journalist, was talking to Felicia Rashad, days after Chadwick Boseman passed. And when we spoke, we were discussing Black Panther, and she was talking about how much this movie had changed the world. Not just because of how successful it was, but because of something that you can't mark on any Excel spreadsheet, on any list.

It's that moment when you see a kid, black, white, whatever, running down the street, wanting to be Black Panther, believing so much in a movie and in a character, that they want to embody them. I love the MCU. I love what it's done for the world, but there's something special that Black Panther did. And when you scrub away all of the awards,

when you scrub away all of the money, what you get is a moment of emotion that proves that there is a world out there, even fictional, that we can look to that's better than our own. It gives us hope. And isn't that why we watch these movies to begin with? Isn't that why we all became nerds? Because we want to believe in something better. We want to believe that we can be better.

And I think when you scrub away everything from Black Panther, all of the culture, all of the race, everything, what you get is one of the best hero stories. And it's not just Tachala's story. It's not just Chadwick Boseman's story. It's Ryan Couglers. It's Lapita Njongos. It's everyone. And I'm here to defend this movie as one of the greatest things

that MCU ever did because there are so few points in anyone's life when you can see something on screen that fundamentally alters the way you see the world and wants you to fight for something better. And that is why it deserves a point. place in the top five MCU movies of all time. I rest my case. Thank you, Your Honor.

All right, I would like to thank both sides for their time. Jomi, would you please instruct the jury for how to proceed into the next week? If you would like to vote on the results of this discussion, you can follow Ring ofverse on Twitter and Instagram, and you can join the Ring of Verse Facebook group for poll. will be up and you will be able to vote on who you think has the best argument. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

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Wow. I was some emotion from you right there, Charles. Jesus Christ. I'm not supposed to believe in this. Hey, I get it. I like it. You know, there's a lot of emotion. I get it.

You know, I'm asking people to make a non-emotion decision, but whatever. So look, we got one last thing to talk. about before we get out of here, Army of the Dead, Zach Snyder's Army of the Dead is on Netflix now. It was, it actually was in theaters last week, and now it has premiered on Netflix. You have watched the movie, you have seen

the movie, and we should let people know right now. We're going to try to give you spoiler-free thoughts here, but if you haven't seen Army of the Dead yet, it might be dope to pause this right now and run over to Netflix, watch it, and then you can finish the podcast, because we're on

back end of it anyway. So what would you think, what did you think of Army of the Dead Charles, Chuck Wagon? I was, I was really surprised. I was really surprised. Shout out to Zach Snyder. I think both of us have been a little bit, you know, tough on my man. And I think Army of the Dead is kind of the perfect example of like what Snyder can do when he's not beholden to superheroes and building these franchises. Because like at the end of the day, is it a perfect movie to me? No. but it's a fun movie. Like I didn't, at no point was I'm like, I don't want to watch this.

I was like, all right, this is cool, mindless fun. Yeah, and I enjoyed it, especially, especially the first 45 minutes. Like the charm, the cast, the humor. I think it dips a little after that, but the first 45 minutes, man, it had. What about you? Zach Snyder basically the Paul George of directors.

He is crazy effective as long as you don't ask him to do too much. And I think what we're seeing is in a movie like this, when he's in pocket, he makes a good, fun, big, noisy zombie movie. That gives you actually more than

just your run-of-the-mill zombie fare. I thought it was great. I thought the beginning of the film is just it actually, it looks like what it is, which is the mutant brother of Donna the Dead, I didn't think he would be able to recapture that same energy, that same

look, that same pacing. But he did, to your point, the movie is not as good in its back half as it is in its front. But the reality is that it does enough to be a really good movie. I really enjoyed it. And you wonder if a guy like Zach Stein and I'll ask you this, I know we got to go, but you wonder if he was thinking too much of doing the DC stuff. If he got a little in his head. I think to be fair, though, like in this movie,

Like, it didn't have it as much, but there was moments in this movie where I'm just like, oh, like, he's still in that, like, I have to make everything, like, mythological. Like, there's that moment when, like, the head zombie, like, looks up at, like, Zeus or whatever. And I'm just like, oh, he still has a little bit of in it. And, like, I think my thing with Zach is, like, I agree, he gets two in his head. But, like, when Army of the Dead is really hitting, it's just a fun action movie. He's not trying to say anything super thematically relevant or super. important. He's just like, hey, like sit down, let's vibe. Let's go. And I think also, like, let's be honest. I know a lot of people, like, have problems with them. I thought Dave Patisa

did a pretty good job for what he was given. I think he did a pretty good job. Also, Amari Hardwick, he deserves more action movies, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, he did his thing. Yeah. I like the movie. It is getting a recommendation and endorsement of whatever it is from me. Charles, would you recommend the movie as well? I don't know if I would pay money for it in the theaters. I definitely think this is like a Friday, Saturday night. Like, you know, if you just with your girl or with your friends, like throw it on, like, you'll all have like

an amazing time. Like, I was not mad. I watched this. What up? All right. Well, there it is, guys. Zach Snyder's Army of Dead is on Netflix right now in theaters. I'm actually going to go see it in the theaters after having watching on Netflix. Mr. Moneybox over there. Doing my thing.

Well, rest and piece of the arc like because that's why I would be going. All right. Charles. I know you do and I know they want to hear give us an outro if you please I don't have an outro

you don't I was up at the crack of dawn watching over you the dead wait let me see if I could do it off the top word to Lil Wade just like yeah yeah off the top let's see if you can do it midnight court is adjourned

okay you know what the midnight boys do please cast your votes that's it That's what I'm talking about, man. Same way. We help out of here, man. Y'all tune in the Mousbott on Tuesday.

Jomey, get us into Midnight Court. Tell the people out there, the gallery out there. The galley, is it a galley or gallery? What's it? I do not know, Vann. Wait, can we call it Judge Jomey? Judge Jomey. I love Judge Jomey.

Technically, Jomey's the bailiff. The bailiff. Damn, but the alliteration, Steve. Jesus Christ. Steve, Steve, but. Steve's not here for the content. I get it. Steve, Steve, Steve, that was some sick-ass white supremacy right here.

God, damn. Wow. Steve. I signed his bail in last week. Wow. I'm running the tape. See?