The Ringer-Verse - ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Mal and Joanna are finally back to talking about the MCU! Listen as they go to the depths of Talokan to discuss ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever.’ First, they activate the kimoyo beads by giving an opening snapshot of the film (5:02). Then, they go into the great mound for a deep dive into each character and story line (13:40). Later, they look ahead to the future of the MCU and talk about some heart-shaped Easter eggs you may have missed (2:32:23). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stepping off point. You reach out with both hands in bust and segment. They lead you into the green world where you can run forever. Greetings. And welcome into the ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Talakon, but also to join us on the Ringer's nexus podcast feed. for all things fandom.

Joining me today, now that she's finished gifting me a bracelet that might come in handy later in today's podcast. It's my house of our Ruketan. Co-host,

Joanna Robinson. My Rubin. What a... When's the last time we talked about Marvel? It's been a minute. I'm excited. It has.

It has been a minute. We are here, of course, today to die. deep into Ryan Cougler's Black Panther Waconda Forever. But Joe, before we head down to Shury's Lab, some quick programming reminders as usual. First of all, catch up on all of the other Wakanda Forever coverage across the podcast network, across the site. Listen to the Midnight Boys.

Poo-Pew! Listen to Big Pick. We have so many great pieces on The Ringer.com. What a great website. Check it all out. And then, moving forward. The Midnight Boys, Poo Poo! We'll be back. Tomorrow, Wednesday, with their instant reaction to episode 11 of Andor,

it's already time for the Penn Ultimate Andor. I cannot believe it. Joe and I will be back on Friday with our Andor deep dive. Joe, how can people follow along? Oh, well, I'm so glad you asked me. First of all, why don't you just subscribe to the podcast, wherever you get your podcast, but may I suggest spot a podcast? but one of those places, right?

Also, socially speaking, because our guy, Jemia Diner on, does such excellent work. I really recommend you follow us on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok. Do we have a Macedon account yet? I don't know. Peach will find us. At most places, where you can, you know, track the rigourverse. So, yeah, check us out on the socials.

And then also, if you want to contact us direct, we're still checking Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. By the way, we got some Wakanda Forever email questions into Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com because the people know that's where to find us. So if you have a question about literally anything, it's not a few hobbits and or dragons. That's where you can find us directly. Did I do it, Mel? Did I cover it up?

Yeah. Yeah. Keep emails coming. Find us on Peach. We're caught up. Of course, on the programming reminders. front bear in mind as always. Our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning.

Today's podcast will of course feature plot details from Wakanda Forever, the movie that we are here to talk about today, as well as the first Black Panther film, the entire MCU run to date, Marvel Comics Canon, all of it. It's all on the table. Okay. Joe, it's time to activate. the Camoyo beads for our opening snapshot. We are chatting about Wakanda Forever.

The 30th film in the MCU. This is the seventh film, concluding film of Phase 4. This is the second film in the Black Panther franchise, directed by Ryan Coogler, written by Coogler and Joe Robert Cole, produced by Nate Moore and Kevin Feige. The Ludwig Gorensen score is back.

We have amazing music from Rihanna. This is a low, loaded, loaded film two hours and 41 minutes. Give us your opening snapshot of Wakanda forever. Yeah, I mean, as many people have said over many Ringer podcasts, there was a lot that this film had to do, had on its shoulders. The most important thing it needed to nail was how do you go ahead with a Black Panther movie without Chadwick Bowman. How do you address it?

How do you honor it? How do you engage with it? And, you know, this is a question we had going into something like The Rise of Skywalker when Carrie Fisher died when Leah was meant to be a huge part of that film. How do we keep going and keep the person central? And, like, you know, on that front, I think Wakanda Forever is a massive triumph. And for that reason, it had so much more to do than so many other MCU movies that it had this big emotional responsibility, which is similar to how people felt about the first Black Panther movie in that, like, if this wasn't just another hero origin story, this is like kicking open the door on the universe and expanding it to, you know, another continent, et cetera. And I saw it's impossible.

We've talked about this a lot on on various House of our podcasts, but like it's impossible to disconnect your communal experience watching something, a film or a TV show from the piece of art itself. We're not like stone cold critics. That's not who we are. That's not what we do on this podcast. I have done that in the past. And so sometimes my stone cold critic brain is at one. war with like my fandom brain, you know? But I saw this movie.

We both have seen it twice now, but the first time I saw this movie was with a really dear friend of mine who I saw the first Black Panther movie with. And she's, she, her family's from Haiti and she, her mom passed away fairly recently. And so we spent the movie sort of hands clasped, her crying through most of the movie, me crying through plenty. of the movie. And I can't divorce that experience of her, like, reaching out to grab my hand and not letting go of it for much of the movie,

which is not how she and I usually watch movies together, from anything else. And so in that sense, like, my emotional resonance with this movie is so high. Stone Cold Critic Brain kicks in, and there's, like, you know, the runtime you mentioned is 2 hours and 41. minutes. And I'd say there's two hours of like just a rock solid classic movie in here. And then a lot of other MCU ephemera that we're going to get to that the Midnight Boys have talked about that they talked about on the big pick that felt like less successful to me. And maybe might

make me feel less inclined to rewatch. We'll see how I feel in the future. But in terms of like that most important. But okay, so here's here's the conflict that I feel. In terms of that most important element, that emotional element, crushed it. That being said, the fact that it had such a high bar emotional prompt to clear meant that that MCU, that larger MCU effemmer, that we should get all the time in MCU projects felt even a little bit more clunky to me than it might another thing because it was banging up against something that felt so important. Mallory Rubin, how did you feel about? What kind of forever.

Yeah, as you mentioned, I have seen the movie twice now, as is often the case. I have been the first time just like, yes, processing everything in real time. And then the second time, once I know that the beats are coming, I found myself, I really enjoyed it the first time I found myself enjoying it even more the second time around. And I think that the movie is a just a deeply poignant and beautiful examination of grief. I agree with everything that that you said and that our wonderful colleagues across the network have said about the incredible challenge at play here

and the number of things that this movie necessitated and demanded. I can't, it's a near impossible task. And it is a beautiful way to honor Chadwick and what Tchalla. Manton continues to mean to so many people. I think that the themes and those, particularly these quiet conversations about grief, the conversations about shared ties, those scenes across the movie, whether they're between Shuri and Ramonda, Shuri and Namor, uh, were like extraordinary. I, I agree that the, the, the MCU,

aspects that are also required in an MCU movie felt less at home in the film. I love Julia Louise Reiface. It's always fun to see Val. But when you're with Val in the movie,

it does feel like you're in a different movie. I thought that the introduction of Namor, the Submariner, a highly anticipated debut was unbelievable and like thrilling and Dano Schwarta is

sublime. I mean, this was just one of the best MCU introductions of all time period across every movie and show that we've gotten really, really, really, really a treat and I cannot wait to see Namor more in the future.

This movie is also a hit Joe. We have, now we're recording Tuesday morning, the opening weekend numbers, 181 million domestically, 331 million globally per variety. That's the second biggest domestic debut of the year of 2022 so far behind Dr. Strange is $187 million opening. And that's the third biggest opening of the pandemic behind Dr. Strange and No Way Home. Big movie.

A lot of people are seeing Wakanda forever. It's almost like Marvel. Marvel knows what it's doing when it comes to big blockbuster movies. I was curious how it's stacked up against Black Panther's debut in 2018. And obviously, like, the movie industry as a whole has taken a hit because of the pandemic. Usually sequels, like, usually in the movie industry, you can bank on a sequel outperforming the original, just because there's, like, a familiarity built in. But Black Panther, the original was $202 million versus $181 million. It's not that huge of a difference.

But, you know, slightly under the original Black Panther. And I think something to keep our eye on, this is a hit. Like, I'm not trying to mitigate that. But something to keep our eye on is that Black Panther had long legs on it. Not quite like Top Gun Maverick, astonishing long legs, but like long legs on it in terms of rewatchability. And that's a question I have about Wakanda for. forever, whether it's that MCUFMR

that I was talking about, or this is an emotional film to go see. It's like a, you know, so like, is that something where you're like, let's go back and cry our eyes out about Chadwick Boseman on a Tuesday? Like, maybe, like, that will feel cathartic.

Or maybe you're just like, one in the theater and then let's watch it at home or something like that. But Black Panther had so many people repeat viewing and taking other people to go see. Like, you can't, like, this is even better than I thought it was going to be sort of thing. So, um, you know, this movie keeps getting compared to Avatar, which I don't love. But I do think it's worth comparing it to Black Panther and thinking about those, those twin legacies as we go

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Well, we have a lot to get to in our deep dive today. We're going to go character by character. We're going to start with Wakanda. let's head into the Great Mound, Joe, for our character by character deep dive. And, you know, you mentioned, you mentioned that catharsis. And I think that's where we have to start.

It's where the movie starts with Tachala's death, with remembering Tachala and Chadwick Boseman. I would encourage anyone who's listening to the pod who hasn't yet checked out what kind of forever the official Black Panther podcast to listen to, to listen to that. Chapter 1 with Tanehisi Coates and Ryan Coogler is up for you.

You can find that on Spotify. You can find that anywhere. It is so deeply, deeply, deeply sad. It opens with a beautiful essay and remembrance from Coates and then features a conversation between Coates and Coates and Coogler. in that opening essay, one of the things that Coates says is, is quote, perhaps most importantly,

this is when speaking about the many things that the movie had to accomplish. It honors the legacy of the man who is now an ancestor and pulls from an immeasurable loss, something meaningful and profound. And that is the singular task and singular achievement of the film.

And I think in particular the way that the film examines individual grief and shared grief and shared healing and community and catharsis inside of a community, that is a very sad and painful thing, but also a great gift for viewers. And I think that it's something that will be there as a gift and as a bomb for people to revisit over time.

When the movie opens, we go immediately, to the lab with Shuri, we hear Shuri appealing to Bost, trying to save her brother, trying to save Tchalla. We hear mention of an illness. The film, the primary timeline of the film is set one year later, but we open here and Ramonda enters and tells Shari that Tachala is with the ancestors now. Joe, how did that opening couple minutes of the film hate you? Yeah, well, first I want to say, we're so lucky to have such an intellectual, like, Tonhasi Coates, who, you know, wrote the first Black Panther run that I engaged with and has done so much to bring an elevated conversation

to comic books, done so much to encourage people to take comic book conversations seriously. So really fortunate to have his, you know,

his massive brain on all of this. And I think that, like, I was so terrified and the Midnight Boys talked about this too, but I was so terrified

that there would be some digital attempt to recreate chat. in this movie in order to show his passing. And I'm so grateful that that was used nowhere, no, you know, no recycled footage, no re-speecher, you know, none of that.

And to throw us in, in the middle of Shori's bewilderment and frantic anxiety, and then Ramonda's, like, you know, and it just happened so quickly. Again, we are our audience proxy with Shuri and all of that because that's how it felt to lose Shadwick Bozeman and it's such a young age, right? We're baffled and were agonized. And I thought that was so smart sort of cheapens it, but I just think that's really emotionally intelligent storytelling for Ryan Cougler to say, remember how this felt for all of us.

And this movie, you know, this movie had to be drastically reshaped and rewritten in order to accommodate, you know, the loss of its central anchor. And then that becomes the core of the central text. I feel like there's two main themes going on here, and one is sort of like the way that Sean just. described it was allieship, but the way that I would describe it as sort of like, who is us and who is them, which was a big question in Black Panther, a big part of the way the Black Panther ended and a big question going into this. And I could see a movie where that is just the question. Who is us and who is them and who are we? To lease that with grief. And as you say, to make the grief a communal one, to follow this lab sequence and Ramunda's pronouncement with this massive communal celebration of life. I mean, I was I was bawling through the whole thing, but I think just from a thematically tight storytelling point of view, it was really, really smart. Yeah. And, you know, we have with Shuri as our initial anchor there, we have like the presence of this, from her perspective, this like what feels like

this very cruel irony, which she carries with her over her journey throughout the film. Like, what are my gifts for if I couldn't save this person I love? And that also feels, I think, like what you're identifying about pulling the film into life and life into the film so true to the helplessness that you can feel when you lose somebody, even if that is not a, that is not a reasonable burden for anybody to put on themselves. And then you, you follow that anguish that Shuri and Ramonda are experiencing. They are our centers as we move through that funeral. But like you said, there's this, we see, of course, Chadwick's face, but this, the dancing and the

celebration of life and the celebration of legacy and the celebration of impact throughout that scene in a way that was just really so special. And I think the part that hit me the hardest was that we go right from that into the Marvel opening wordmark, silent. And it's images of Tchalla throughout the MCU and snippets of key quotes. And the purple, the signature purple, and it was just incredibly, incredibly sad and moving. I knew very little about this movie going into it at all, but I did know that they were going to do that. And even knowing it was coming, I think, as you say, it's the lack of score. Because even when they did it for Stan Lee, which they did on Captain Marvel, like, there was still that sort of like, here we go, we're in a Marvel movie.

And to go to the, to the, to the noise, the, like, joyful noise of the celebration of life in Wakanda to that silence and making us just sit there and our own emotions about it. Again, brilliant. Storytelling. And the film's bookends are the remembrance, because in the closing moments, Shuri goes to Haiti, burns the funeral garb, sits alone on the beach and reflects again. And once again, we see these images.

We're in these memories and these moments with Chachala with Shuri. And it is just so deeply, deeply sad. And that takes us to the stinger. There's no post-credit stinger. There's a mid-credit stinger. Joe, walk us through. who we meet here and what we learn. So, you know, Nike comes down to the beach with the boy.

And it's so funny because when this boy shows up earlier in the film and we get no reference to who he is, I was like, that is the most beautiful child I've ever seen him. I was just like, I kind of gassed when we first saw him. I was like, who is this, like, platonic ideal of a Gerber baby, like, beautiful boy that is here that is just like they found the perfect extra. But as it turns out, you know, and as soon as you see him, you're like, oh, because there's this big mystery of like, why did she leave and what was going on. Right. And Ramonda has the line earlier before Namor arrives that there's something that she has to tell Shuri about Tachalo. So that line is in our heads throughout the rest of the film. So we meet this boy, his name is Tucson.

And like I said, I saw us with one of my best friends whose family is from Haiti. And she, like, squeezed my hand, like, very strongly when he said his name was Toussaint, because Toussaint is the name of the leader of the Haitian Revolution. And there's a lot of Haiti. One note my friend had was she did not understand the pronunciation of Haiti in this movie, because she was like either you say Haiti or you say 80, but she's like, I don't understand this weird middle ground that they picked. That was one note she had.

And they filmed a lot of the Haiti stuff in Puerto Rico. That being said, the connection between Haiti and Wakanda and this movie, the way that like when Wakanda floods, like how are we not thinking about, you know, what has happened to Haiti, the way in which Oakland was so prevalent in the first movie, and these outreach outposts that Wakanda's put out in the world and they had one opening in Oakland at the end of the first film and this is one that's that's in Haiti in this film I think all that that location is super important

but of course like the big moment of this is that we find out that this kid has another name which is Tchalla and that this is you know King Tachala's son Yes. And Letitia Wright had a lot on our shoulders throughout this whole movie. And there's been a lot of conversation about like how much we're missing the star power of Chowdick Bowes in this movie or not.

But I will say that there are these quieter moments of grief or reckoning, I think Lettisha Wright really nailed in this moment where she understands what she's seeing here. really hit me. And I think the use of Chadwick, both of that opening logo reveal, and then to have this montage at the end versus, you know, feeling like they had to keep going back to it throughout, I thought that was like the perfect balance of it. How did you feel about the Prince Tchalla reveal here? Oh, just incredible.

I was sobbing, weeping. you know, for so many different reasons, there's the little moment earlier in the film where we learned from Grio that like he is trying to reach Shuri, that Shuri's not answering, and like just the reconnection of the characters across the movies,

a few different characters across the movie was like a really powerful thing. And to go from Shuri deciding to go down to the beach alone, that this was something that she needed to, do and process and work through on her own, but then also have that shared experience to learn that Tachala had a son,

to meet her nephew, to find out, yes, that her mother did know, that they knew each other, that they had met, that they were in each other's lives, to hear that Tachala had prepared them for his death.

That's something that we hear here. And, like, that is so sad, but also so, it's, there's like a, a tragic comfort and a beauty in knowing that he had that time with his son, that he had that time with his family, right?

And that's the other sort of meta-narrative of this is that, you know, Chadwick Bozeman very famously, like, did not tell people that he was sick. So for Shurie, to say, you know, he didn't tell us he was sick. But, of course, Chaddick Bozman told his family knew. And so, like, his, you know, Akea and his son knew that they were prepared to think of, Yeah, to think of them having their time together in Haiti is so beautiful and so sad. And I think also like we, you know, we go from that private reflection for sure, those images, those memories.

And then we meet Prince Tachala and that idea of your legacy and your memory living on. and moving forward into a new phase together is, I think, a very important and powerful message for not only everybody who made this movie, but for the audience who loved this character and this actor and has been in a state of mourning as well. And I think, you know, to put on again my like less emotional, more cynical mind, I will say that like this movie kind of hedges it. bets about like who could be the Black Panther in the future, right? When we see this sequence, we're going to get to much more Mbaku later. But like we find out that Mbaku is like, you know, throwing his hat in the ring to be king of Wakanda.

I mean, like, first of all, I really do feel like the Black Panther and the King of Wakanda should be two different people. They both have massive jobs. Why would it ever be the same job? You know what I mean? But like MCU leaves the door open that like Mbaku could be a Black Panther going forward. Prince Chachala here could be a Black Panther going

forward. There, you know, it is well known that there were some struggles with like Lettisha Wright on this film in a way that like having to do with vaccines and all that sort of stuff

in a way that like, you know, maybe makes sense that that marble might want to hedge its bets as to who the Black Panther is in the future. But I also just like this idea that like Shuri isn't Shuri isn't interested in that. This idea of power for power's sake,

which is a constant conversation around the black pamper and the heart-shaped herb, why do you want the power? What is it for? Is it for vengeance? Is it for power? Is it for, you know,

what is it for? And so this idea that, like, when it comes to power and ruling and all that sort of stuff, like that's not something Shuri's interested in. Right? And so she's not, she's not in Wakanda,

you know, she's she's in her grief. That's where she still is. Yeah, I'm, I'm interested to chat about that Mbaku moment. My, my read on that is that he and Shuri, and this is just a theory. We don't know. Oh, yeah. It's very open to interpretation.

Is that he and Shuri came to that decision together. Yeah, based on their relationship in this movie. Yeah, which was a, which was one of the really cool, uh, evolution of character dynamics across the films that he will rule and that she will be Black Panther. But let's chat about Shurie more.

Let's chat about Shurie's journey in this movie. And let's spend a few more minutes here on Shurie's grief in particular and the way that Shurie's grief is examined and really one of the central, it's a central focus of the film

for Shuri, for Rommanda. In the official Black Panther podcast that I mentioned earlier, there's there's a moment where quotes asks Coogler if they considered recasting and they discussed that for a few minutes and I'm paraphrasing here but the idea that it would not have felt true

true to the people making the movie to do that here and Coogler then says quote our truth was loss you know which is a fact of life it's the gift and the curse of life heroes, great men die. There is another essay from Coates in the middle of the episode where he

says they would have to mourn Chad while telling a story which had been defined by him. And the characters discuss this idea very actively. One year after, Tchalla's death, we had a sequence where Ramona takes sure, out of the lab. Leave your beads behind. We need to talk.

We need to process. We need to heal. Now, this is something that Ramonda explains to Shari, it's the audience. She has done and embraced. This is something that Shuri is really struggling with. And Joe, we're both big lost enthusiasts. And so we both jotted down in our notes the exact same thing here.

It's the Jack Shepherd, John Locke, There's a man of science, man of faith tension that is really central in this conversation. And I thought that this was riveting and very deep. Shuri telling Ramonda that the thing that her mother's describing, this great comfort of feeling to Chala's presence around her, feeling his hand after his death. Shuri saying that's just a construct of your mind designed to comfort you. We had some emails about this idea, Joe. I think it's a really interesting, again, on a meta level,

I think it's really interesting to put an actress like Leticia Wright, who was so vocal about her faith in this faith journey in this film. We have this email from Lacey who says, I think Shuri has the toughest time with her grief because when you have a profoundly scientific mind, When you reject anything that can't be backed up with evidence and can't be detected with instruments, you don't leave much room for yourself to make meaning out of grief and trauma. And when you can't make meaning, you get stuck. In that scene by the river, Ramonda says she felt a push or a tap on the shoulder from her son.

And Shuri says something like that's just your brain trying to make you feel better, Mom. This is Lacey saying. Lacey says, I'm not a religious person and I've had exactly this conversation with myself after my friend died unexpectedly. Shuri can recognize beauty and she has compassion. We see that when she goes to telecon. And those are certainly beautiful capabilities. But when the worst things in life come for you, beauty and compassion aren't always enough to get you through it. Also, when Shuri doesn't want to be buried in the stand and she sees Eric instead of her brother, this is of a piece with her worldview.

She's just not a spiritual person. And she can't access worlds invisible like her brother could. But at the end, she can in the final moments of her fight with Namor when she's pushed to the absolute edge physically and emotionally. She sees and hears her mom. Shiri can give herself the space to perceive something that isn't maybe really 100% real, something that comforts and helps her. She doesn't have to be skeptical of it. She can just let it move her.

Grief makes the same demand that the Dora Melange do move or you will be moved. You have to let it move you. And I just, I loved this email from Lacey, but I love this idea of really dialing into what makes Shuri so different. from Tachala in terms of, I was looking at, I was rereading the script for Black Panther, the original film, and that is sometimes helpful for me to do even beyond watching something. It's just like read through the script and like really dig through the language. I think you and I do the same thing. And like the number of times BAST is mentioned in the first film versus this film is really interesting to me. Like, as you mentioned, it opens with Shory, making a plea to Bast, but much more a plea to Grio, like, the AI assistant than a plea to Bast, right?

And I don't know if using Bass less has anything to do with the weird place that the MCU is in in terms of, like, it's Pantheon of Gods after Thor, Love and Thunder and Moon Night. or if it is just more centered on the fact that this is a journey of a woman who considers herself a scientist first. And again, it makes the grief journey very specific, which is great storytelling. Yeah, this was one of my favorite conversations and scenes in the movie. And part of that larger point about how these quieter and more introspective conversations, just really were like exceptionally, uh, crafted here. I, I think this is also like a really important scene for a couple different reasons. You know, for Shuri specifically, there's this doubt and doubt is a part of healing,

working through your doubt. And it's not an easy thing to do. Whatever shape that takes for you and whatever sparks it for you, like it requires a lot. It requires time. It requires help. And that's the other thing I loved about this. Like there is a lot of spirituality and a lot of cultural richness

throughout the Black Panther films and the Black Panther Canon. And when Shuri sees Eric, sees Killmonger on the ancestral plane, I can't wait to talk about that scene, he says to her, like, you didn't think this was real, right? It's, again, like, it's made text. It is interrogated directly in the film.

But the other thing I loved about this is grief looks different for every person. It takes a different shape for every person. And so does your path to working through it. And this is what it looks like for sure. And, you know, we end up with these really rich moments later in the film when, for example, she's able to regenerate the heart-shaped herb thanks to the bracelet and anymore and everything we'll talk about more as we go.

But there's this hybrid quality, this melding of science and things. Science and tradition. It doesn't have to be like an active rejection of one or the other. there's an embrace, and that, of course, is one of the larger themes of the story as well, is where can there be a shared forging and a shared path forward? So I thought this scene was really wonderful. I agree. This is one of us, like, both of my favorite things in this movie involve Angela Bassett.

So I think also... So good. The way in which, you know, Killmonger burns the heart-shaped herb when we lose, to Chala, we cannot just easily make another Black Panther. And so then we lose a key part of our culture. Keep saying ours if I'm a Wakanda. Lose a key part of their culture. And a key connection to like history and memory, this idea of like the memory of Wakanda and is it lost forever if Shuri can't scientifically replicate this herb. So as you say, yeah, that that intertwined nature of faith, culture, and science on this particular Black Panther, this particular leader.

Yeah. I'm glad that you mentioned the absence of the heart-shaped herb because, you know, and we'll chat more about the scene in Geneva with Ramonda in a few minutes. But when she says to everyone, we know what you think. means that our protector is gone. But this idea in the opening stretches of the film, not only that the Black Panther is gone, that the herb is gone,

but that it was not something that Shuri solves, right? There's this, like, resignation that also has to be worked through. But one of the things I really like about the story is that there are so many ways we're reminded throughout. And this is true for numerous characters, for Ramonda, for O'Coye, et cetera, but since we're focusing on Shuri here right now, Shuri is still a protector

long before she becomes Black Panther. And that doesn't in any way diminish the importance of assuming the mantle, but it does remind us and remind the characters of all of the different ways that you can help and protect and heal. So even just that, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

sequences, are we here like all of the different ways that everybody is working to ward off whatever threat might emerge next, the ones that they already know about, the ones that can't be foreseen, but you can anticipate will come in some form. The way that Shuri wants to join the mission, wants to go with Akoye to Boston to find Riri, refusing, this is of course a crucial one, to hand over Riri to Namor, saying, in another one of my absolute favorite scenes, which I'm really excited to talk about more, telling Namor that Wakanda will not stop looking for Shuri,

and Shuri will not change her mind about handing over reread. That's not going to happen. There's a desire to protect long before she's able to recreate the herb. But she does recreate the herb, Joe. She becomes Black Panther. Let's do a couple quick seconds here of comics corner, because Shuri assuming the Black Panther mantle is of course comics canon as well.

Shuri debuted as Black Panther in 2009's Black Panther Volume 5. Number five, this is very different in numerous key respects, including Tachala, training her to become Black Panther should the need arise. There's also this really like active coveting of the title and of the powers.

It's something that really dismayed boss. This is, very different in the comics in the films because in the comics, Cherie's journey to becoming Black Panther is also a journey to embracing humility. And of course, in the film, this is not something that she wants. And then there is a recognition that this is. Wait, what did you say, Mallory? She doesn't want it. A reluctant leader, Joe.

Don't want it. The old John Snow. Give me old John Snow one more time. What did you make of the differences between, Shuri's heart-shaped herb ceremony and the other versions of that that we have seen with Chichala, with Kilmonger, etc.

In a lab, not this sacred space, no burial, the synthetic nature of the Arab, etc. I was like, oh, we're doing it here? Oh, okay. But yeah, it makes sense.

Again, like, this is a scientific, you know, it's a synthetic herb. Her question of, like, will it even work? We don't know. That's like the temple for Shuri, right? That's her temple. Yeah.

You know, I love Nakia being there to help all of that. I have to say, like, again, I did not know any, like, anything about this movie. I was, like, really actively trying to put the blinders up on this movie. Like, a friend of mine was just, like, casually told me that Shori becomes a Black Panther, which, like, you could have guessed, but I was, like, actively trying to not know. And I was like, okay, well, now I know. Did you, before that, before that conversation, did you really strongly consider any other possibilities or think that any other characters were maybe equally likely, or did you,

did you assume that it would be sure? I mean, I think Shuri is the, like, obvious pick. I was just, again, on, like, a business point of view, I just had heard so many behind the scenes, like, problems with Letitia, who's a tremendous performer, we can all agree, but, like, that I was like, well, maybe they won't go in that direction. So I thought maybe an Akea, like, you know, and I think, I think, I think, Leplied and Younger is extraordinary in this movie. And so, um, and she's barely in the trailer. And so I was just sort of like, maybe they're hiding her in the trailer because that's the answer. And in the first movie,

there is the, there is the moment because Nikia takes when, when Kilmonger orders the burning, takes that one last herb. And there's the moment as they're making their way to Embakou, where Ramona says you should Nikia you should take it. So that was, yeah, that was also the other possibility that I considered. But sure,

I think always seemed most likely. Let's talk about seeing Kilmonger. Yeah. Okay. So that's what I was saying. I didn't, I didn't know

that Michael B. Jordan was doing cameo on this movie. Like if you would ask me, I would have, like, if you would ask me right before I walked in, do you think Michael B. Jordan's on this movie?

I would really like, I mean, probably, maybe. You know what I mean? but I didn't know for sure. And so when she, like, goes to the ancestral plane and she's, like, looking for her brother, looking for her mother, right?

But we see someone's on the throne and we don't see who they are. I was like, oh, man, it's Eric, isn't it? Yeah. And then Michael B. Jordan stands up and he's like, he's like, who says? Who says Chris Evans gets a monopoly on white knitwear? Who says? It's my time to shine. Not since Knives out, have we seen such a remarkable.

sweater looks amazing, like is amazing. And I think that the, I love this scene. I love this. You talked about how every journey through grief is different and that's true. But I think what also the MCU keeps hitting home is that usually there is a understandably irrational, angry, one of the steps of grief, anger, right? Right. And we saw it with Tichala went through it as well in Civil War, right? Anger first, then understanding and reason and blah, blah, blah. And so the fact that Shuri is in this anger space, this vengeance space, that she's lost her mother and her brother and everything and her father. And that Eric is the one. And like, again, that they didn't do a sort of digital, I was like, I was wondering, you know, because the thing that they do. did with Leia with Carrie Fisher and the Rise of Skywalker is a lot of it was like old footage that

they had deleted scenes that they sort of refashioned. And so I was like in my head on like, best case is that they have some sort of scene between Shuri and Chala that they can refashioned to make something here. And the fact that they just didn't do any of it again, made me so happy. I thought Michael B. Jordan was extraordinary in this scene. It's so good. Interesting that Eric hasn't seemed too. have learned any? I kind of thought he had like a learning moment at the end of Black Panther, and it seems like he's still in his vengeance base. Would you disagree with that interpretation? Well, I think that like one of the things that is central to our understanding of the ancestral

plane is, and Eric actually says this to Shuri, right? You chose me. Like there's an element of the person who is visiting the plane in that moment. We've been there with Tachala. We've been there with Eric, we've been there with Shari. What conversation does that person need to have? Who does that person need to hear from? And what idea do they need to work through? Right. So I think the question need versus want, like she wants someone to tell her to burn everything down. But what does she need in that moment? You know, but I guess that's my answer to the question is like, I view that more through, I view that more as an acknowledgement of where Shuri is at that moment than. then is where Eric is.

I think, like, also, you know, where does, where is this? This is, Shuri is initially underwater. This is where her mother died. Like, this is just devastating. I just want to say, like, on the, on the Michael B. Jordan front, on the Kilmonger front, if anyone listening hasn't watched season one of what if. Eric is very central to what if. And so we have a few different, a few different ways now, the ancestral plane here,

multiversal storytelling in What If, where Eric has entered the story again. I, for one, am delighted by the prospect of more Michael B. Jordan in the future. That was the whole thing after Black Panther is everyone's like, Killmonger was so great. Michael B. Jordan was so great. Like, we understand for the story why he died there. But like, we want more. Like, why can't he have a Loki arc, you know? And I think that there was a wildly unsourced story that cropped up over the weekend that said that Kevin Feigy was reaching out to like every superhero ever to make Secret Wars sort of bigger than end game.

Right. And so like including X-Men and Fantastic Four and whoever, you know, all this sort of stuff. You know what in general I'm a little less high than you are on like bringing down. characters back, killmonger is definitely an exception for me. I'm like bring, this is why the multiverse exists so that we can get more Michael B. Jordan, preferably and only open cardigans, fashion cardigans, please. Spoiler alert for the rest of the pod, that will not be the last secret wars mentioned. Promise.

That's going to come up a couple more times today. Cross our hearts. Yeah. Let's compare this to what Tachala hears when he sees Tachaka after he beats Mbaku on Challenge Day. This is the first time Tachala visits the ancestral plane in Black Panther. Carlos, can we hear this clip? Tell me how to best protect Wakanda. I want to be a great king, Baba, just like you.

They're going to struggle. So you'll need to surround yourself with people. will you trust. You're a good man with a good heart and it's hard for a good man to be king. Incredible line, incredible idea, incredible moment from the first film. And it's very top of mind here because you noted the parallel and the symmetry of the vengeance element, which we'll talk about more in a second here. but this is like quite distinct.

Tachala is speaking to his father about how to become a good king. And Eric is saying to Shuri, here's how everybody failed before. Tchala, he tells her, is too noble. Now, Namor makes a similar appeal to Shari elsewhere in the film when he tells her that he heard her say to her mother that she wants to burn the whole world. So there are multiple characters appealing to that element

of Shuri's grief. I think that in some ways this ancestral plane scene, the choice to feature killmonger here, Shuri's choice of Panther habit after she wakes up and does realize that it worked,

she's got the super strength, she has the powers of the heart of the heart shaped herb because there's the gold that we associate with Eric's suit, very present in sherry suit, but also a lot of the silver, et cetera. So there's a sort of like hybrid element of Eric and Tachala that's present there. She doesn't want to tell anybody who she saw. She doesn't want to say that she saw Eric. She doesn't want to share anything from that conversation after she wakes back up. But as you noted, Joe, and this is obviously crucial,

there's also a very clear parallel to Shuri's arc here with what we saw from Tachala in Captain America's Civil War, which began in a very vengeful place. Let's hear what Tachala says to Zemo the first time that we are with Tchala in the MCU as Black Panther. This is at the end of Civil War. Carlos, can we hear this? Anjent has consumed you.

He's consuming them. I'm done letting it consume me. Justice will come soon enough. That is note for note what Shuri tells Namor when telling him to yield at the end of their fight in the climax of the film. When Ramonda appears to Shuri during that same battle and tells her to show Namor who she is,

it makes us think of the challenge, between Baku and Tachala and Ramonda telling Tachala, then show him who you are. So even though Kilmonger is who Shuri saw, and there is something there, we see the burning of the throne room. We think of the burning of the herbs, that anger that Eric is appealing to,

that desire to pursue that vengeance. There are also all of these very present connections to Tachala's arc to her mother. It is not one instead of the other. It's all present there, for sure. And an important, important to have a character on an arc, an important to have a character wrong footing before they're right footing. You know what I mean?

I found that really satisfying. I agree. Anything else that you want to say about Shuri, Joe, before we chat about Ramonda? Well, do we want to talk about this, like, other ancestral plane appearance that we get from Ramonda in the final fight? Yeah, so was your read on the mechanics of hell? how Ramonda appears to Shuri there. And this is who, of course, we think we're going to see the first time.

That's not who we see. There's no new ingestion of the herb. There's no new ceremony. Is your read there that this is because Shuri is near death herself in that moment? Is there another interpretation? I think she basically dies for a second. And that's like what she sees. I do some issues, suit mechanic issues.

This is a knit to pick. But like, so Namor's spear Raw vibranium Is raw vibranium Which is why I can go through the suit Okay, that makes sense to me And the whole thing with Eric

Is that he gets mortally wounded Because the suits were turning on and off And this is the whole point in their fight, right? Like that that's how Eric got got in the end I have some questions about Like I guess the idea is that the suit heals Shuri I just, Latisha Wright is such a narrow individual

that there is like just nowhere that spear could have gone that wasn't just like absolutely decimating organs and or spine. Like where did, like, if you've watched the show, Our Flag Means Death, there's this whole sequence where these pirates are learning how to like take a stab wound and wear in your abdomen, you can take a sword and be fine. And I'm just like there's no space in a lanky babe like, like Shuri for that spirit

I was just like, how is that person alive was my question? I guess the answer is yada yada suit magic, but that was a real moment for me. Yeah, my assumption was you know, we've seen Shuri use the

commoio beads to heal, obviously healing Everett Ross's bullet in the spine in the first film and the nanotech of the suit porting the healing nanites into the wound wherever the wound was.

That was my assumption. Okay. The other... Sue magic. I'll leave that... I'll leave that knit to pick aside. The other question I have, if we're talking about the end of Shuri's arc here,

because there's the battle on the beach, and then she and Namor come back, and I'm just like, JK, we worked it out. Everyone on this boat's not fighting. We'll talk, we'll talk, just in case anyone's wondering, we will talk more about the, uh, all of those battles when we get to, to Namor. later.

Yes. I'm just saying, like, a lot of people died on both sides, but a lot, like, we went from a lot of Wakandans to, like, 10 Wakandans left on that ship thereabouts, right? It's like, so Shuri is a leader. Like, I understand Shuri being wrong, like, pursuing the wrong thing, pursuing vengeance, when maybe that's not, that's not the path that she should be going down. the cost, the toll that took on her nation, I have questions about that at the end of the day.

Maybe we can circle back to them. Yeah, I think the conversation that Shuri and Mbaku have where initially Mbaku wanted to fight, wanted to kill the fishmen. The fishman, yeah. And then his evolution is toward a more cautious and sensible path not only because of the reality of the moment, but this idea of the way that the people of Talakhan consider and view Namor as a god,

the feather serpent god, and this idea of risking eternal war. And sure, and of course we can recognize the wisdom in that, but also we recognize the truth of Shuri's response there too, which is, was my mother's death not worth eternal war? And Mbacca says, of course it was. Of course it was. And I thought that that conversation was, you know, central to interrogating this idea, too, of the cost of a pursuit like that. If we think about, if you go back to that clip you played from Black Panther, where John Connie, as Chaka says, surround yourself with people you trust.

I'm like, this is who Mbaku is for sure in this film and what an unexpected surprising delight is. Okay, we'll get to that. Let's talk about the queen. Let's do it. The queen of our hearts, the queen of Wakanda. Angela fucking Bassett. What a incredible performance. I mean, the performances are exceptional across the board in the film. What a performance from Angela Bassett.

The challenge at the UN in Geneva, this stretch where the Dora. And the queen get to embarrass and Toby Ziegler from the West Wing. Yeah. And flex on France and the U.S. We're cutting back and forth between the U.N. sequence and the attack on one of the outreach centers where Lodrome Lange are waiting for what we learn are these French commandos. this is where we hear Ramonda say that the global community thinks that Wakanda has been weakened. We know what you whisper, she says. They have lost their protector.

Now is our time to strike. And, you know, we tease earlier that the moments in the film where we are just with Ross and Val, say, or just in a CIA boardroom are some of the less successful stretches of the film, even though we love being with Martin Freeman and love being with JLD. But a scene like this Geneva sequence is essential because we do have to understand and then remember throughout the film that this lust, this lust, guiding and blinding lust for vibranium to take it away from Wakanda and eventually Talakon as we as we learn of course, but to use it, to use it for the U.S.'s

Ames and Enns, France's aims and ends, is an ever-present and very real threat. And the fact that we know that that is a very real threat is something that we're always thinking about when Namor makes his appeal. Well, and it's, okay, so a couple things are going on here. First of all, this is something that Van and Charles and I talked about out of D23, because they showed this clip, most of it, D23. We know what you whisper. They've lost their protector now is our time to strike this Ramonda stance.

A lot of Angela Bassett in the trailer, in the various promotion clips they showed, which sort of hides the fact that she's gone from the back half of the movie. but like, I think it was, Van made the point. He was like, this is a meta commentary on like, Ryan Cougler saying, we know what you whisper, the Black Panther franchise, right, has lost its star is weakened somehow and saying, no, we are still extremely strong. Like, we love Chadwick, we mourn him, but we are not lesser without him. And I think that's really.

interesting. And I think also, it goes to this larger conversation. We'll get to this when we get to Namor a bit more than the major sort of setting changes that they made to Namor and his kingdom. But like this constant idea that Ryan Coogler and the Black Panther stories in general are telling of like, what is an indigenous culture capable of if a colonizer doesn't come in and freaking oppress them. And so the condescension of France and America in this scene

to say, can you be trusted with vibranian? And Ramon is like, why should we trust you? Are you kidding me? Yeah, that was such a great moment. Like, we're not afraid of what vibranium can do or afraid of what you would do. You can do. Are you kidding? Have you seen you? So, yeah, I loved that.

I love the whole sequence. Great stuff. Really, really good. You know, Joe, we chatted about this examination of grief from Shuri's perspective. But what about from Ramoso's perspective? Because I found myself thinking back to the moment in Black Panther when Tachala returns and arrives back at Wakanda in Waconda after his father's death. Shuri is there to greet him. His mother is there to greet him.

And he asks, how are you feeling today, Mama? And she says, proud, your father and I would talk about this day all the time. He is with us and it is your time to be king. And how central that has always been for her character, the embrace of the beyond. The belief that she carries with her that death is not the end, that the people that we lose, that they have lost, remain with them. And, you know, she's talking about her husband's death there. But of course, there's a presence of sadness and grief, but there is also that possibility for her son and for the tomorrow. Again, I think that connects to that larger, like, memory, ancestral memory that feels cut off with the loss of the heart shape herb.

And how Ramonda feels then the burden on her to keep that going and to, try to spark that fire in Shuri. Shuri is battling with a different kind of fire. But this is sort of what she wants to encourage. She's like, it's not, the line continues. It goes all the way back and it goes all the way into the future. And we are the connective tissue. That's what a monarchy is, after all. You know, and you can, you can, as you and I have said on our coverage of the crown, we are not monarchists in general. But like, you know, that's the idea of an institution like a monarchy, right? It stretches back and forwards. in time. I love the way you're bringing up memory and returning to that idea. Like I'm just seeing in my mind as you're talking the way that the vibranium traces through the great mound and this

presence across time and across generations. That's a really lovely idea. Can we talk about Ramonda and Akoye? We're going to chat about Oh my God. O'Moye more specifically in a few minutes, but in terms of their dynamic and the dismissal.

scene, which was harrowing. One of the strongest things I've ever seen, and it is so hard, we talk about this a lot. I'll just bring everything back to Thrones, but like that spoils of war goal, where you're watching something and you're equally on the side of two sides of an argument, right? And you are with Ramonda and you are with Akoye and this, and you're like, this is wildly unfair to and then you're like, oh, but wait, Ramonda has many points that she is making here that I agree with. And so outstanding, breathtaking delivery from Angela Bassett, outstanding, breathtaking silent rage and shame from Denai Grera, you know.

It's just this is the height of what, you know, comic book storytelling can be is this. conversation. This line was obviously centrally featured in the trailers and the run-up to the film, but often when a line is very present in trailers, it doesn't land as impactfully when you finally see it. This was kind of the opposite. Like, when we hear Ramon to say, I am queen of the most powerful nation in the world and my entire family has gone, have I not given everything I'm just full body chills? And yeah, that, oh, the spoils of war point is a great one because when we feel the presence still of the resentment that Okoye and the Dora stayed with Eric. After his challenge, we then, we also feel, as you're saying, like the shame, the scene later that we get with Akoye and Nakia when she comes back and thanks her.

and the tears and the embrace that they share after O'Coye knows that Shuri is okay, like the way that these moments of regret are present for her. Because we watched the whole mission to Boston with Akoye and Shuri, and we know how frantic and desperate and hard Akoye like fought to protect Shori. And so to be accused. of failing, which, you know, of course, technically she did, but like, we saw how hard she fought. And so we also bristle with the injustice of what's said here. But then again, Ramonda is making points.

And I think I just want to say in a larger conversation about Wakanda Forever, people, many people are talking about Angela Bassett in the supporting actress category for the Oscars. And I love that because, you know, to put on my, like, I was an Oscar person. for years and years in my old job. Like, it seems like a perfect, you know, Black Panther had such a striking appearance at the Oscars in 2019. And I think it was that, right? Yeah, it had to have been. And like the wins that they picked up for that film, like Ruth Carter, et cetera, like did a lot to, quote, quote, legitimize. comic storytelling or whatever.

The fact that Marvel had a movie that was an Oscar contender. The entire cast was there. Nominated for Best Picture. I don't know that I see Wakanda Forever being nominated for Best Picture, maybe, but it depends how everyone's feeling about the other films this year.

But this is one of those moments where, like, Angela Bassett, who has been so good for so long, like, what's love got to do with it waiting to exhale? everything she's ever done. She's been so extraordinary.

It feels like one of those moments where everyone should be like, yeah, why doesn't Angela Bassett have a fucking Oscar? And why not for this incredible, this incredible scene? Especially in a supporting category, all you need is one clip like this to roll.

And people are like, oh, fuck. Yeah. Okay. So that would be amazing. I'm starting. I'm starting my Angela Passett for Supporting Actors campaign. I'm already behind.

I love it. But I'm all in. I love it. I love it. One of the really amazing things about this performance and Ramonda's role in this movie is that she has such meaningful moments and interactions with so many different characters and so many different duos we just chatted about. O'Coye, we've chatted at length already about Shuri. Her mission for Akiah is like connects to all. all of these ideas that we've already discussed,

where does your grief lead you? How do you assess want versus need? What is the cost? What is necessary? When she tells her to retrieve, to retrieve Shuri at all costs, and we're cutting in between different scenes, the idea of like the summoning of Namor taking place

in conjunction with the infiltration and the rescue of Shuri and Riri. And then she has these incredibly meaningful moments with Riri in a very short span of time, including protecting her in her moment, the final moments of her life, rescuing her and saving her, leading Riri to say later that she protects her like she was one of her own. So I want to talk about two Black Panther echoes into this movie. One is that You already mentioned, like, the echo of the Akoye Ramonda tensions from the first one. Then we have to remember, like, who was it who got Ramonda out is Nakia, right?

So, like, for her to go to Nakia, like, make so much sense, given everything else as well. And Nakia is incredibly good at her job. We're going to talk about that in a second. But, like, it makes so much sense to her. And then that idea of protecting me, like, I was one of her own. this goes to the like us versus them who are we who are they who is us sort of question and it takes me to that speech that chala again having learned something from killmonger tachalla at the end of black panther says wakana will no longer watch from the shadows we cannot

we must not we will work to be an example how we as brothers and sisters on this earth should treat each other now more than ever illusions of division threaten our very existence, we all know the truth. More connects us than separates us in times of crisis. The wise build bridges while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we are one single tribe. This is the conversation that's going to resonate through what Namor and Shuri have to do in this film, obviously. But Ramonda is really taking that to heart of like rewry is ours and we are protecting her.

Yeah. Yeah, I had that exact quote top of mind through the Namor lens and Namor pitching Shuri on this alliance and this idea of forging an alliance, but also from Namor's perspective there, it's two-age war on the surface world. so division and barriers are present there as well. But yeah, it fits really, really well here too. We lose Ramonda in this movie, Joe. Yeah. We have to watch Shuri and the other characters grieve again. And the just unrelenting presence of death and loss in the film

and for these characters was, I was shocked. Incredibly, incredibly devastating. Yeah, I was too. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about Angela Bassett or Ramonda? No, just like, I hope she has space on her shelf for that Oscar. Like, I hope she makes some space.

She can build a whole new cabinet if she wants to. That's fine. I love it. Let's talk about Nicaa. As you mentioned, Lepida crushing it as always. One of the interesting things about her arc in the film is that this, this This is our primary blip connection and our main timeline orientation. We learned that she's been away from Wakanda for six years.

I thought that of the many, many, many resonant and gut-wrenching moments in the film, of which there were numerous, seeing her tell Akoye that she needed to. be alone, that she needed to allow herself to break completely after losing Tachala was unrivaled in how heart-runching it was. I was so worried that there would be so little Nikia in this movie, given how little, you know, Daniel Kalu is not in the movie at all. We'll talk about that later. But I was just really worried. There's so much going on. And I was just really worried that Nekia would be some kind of footnote. And so I was so glad to see her take such a bigger role in the middle and back half of this movie.

And, you know, Lipida already has an Oscar on her shelf for a reason. She's astonishing, great. She's so good. She's amazing. I loved how, you know, her war dog skills remain unrivaled and those are very present when she is on this mission to find, to locate Shuri and to find Shuri and Rie and rescue them. She's an active participant in the battle. but we get to see her spycraft, her trade craft.

Detective Nakia? Yeah, the research, her grasp of language and history, the way that she can forge a connection with other people. Like, she is so central to the major action set pieces in the film, but also some of the most emotionally impactful and some of the most intriguing stretches of the film. it was just very cool to get that, that blend. Can I say that from a, like, larger, like, marketing perspective?

So, like, you know, Lipita was bored in Mexico, is a Mexican, like, Mexican-Canin, dual citizenship. So, you know, watching her speak Spanish is, like, a joy in the film in general. But also, like, when the film had its debut and junk in Mexico City, they sent to No Suerto, but they sent Lupita as well. and like to watch them like dancing. It's amazing. Like, you know, the premiere to watch them in like the press conferences and stuff like that.

It's just like it speaks to, you know, Ryan Coogler has been so eloquent talking about this idea of like Black Panther wanting to explore, you know, African culture and Black American culture experience. but to watch the joy of the, like, Meso-American-based joy that Lupita and Tinoch could represent at these premieres like that, I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Yeah. The clip of them dancing is so wonderful. Made me smile.

Really great. I loved the scene, too, where Ramonda first visits in Haiti, because there's this really, like, cool moment where she notes that she recognizes a lot of what she's seeing. And, like, to take the Wakandan traditions and then apply them locally, this melding was just really, really wonderful as well. Okoye. Okoye and the Dora. A lot of Okoye in the movie, especially the first half. Yeah.

Really fun. Yeah. I'm using banter up in Boston. It was great. We're going to talk about my feelings about Rui in general in this movie, but like the Boston like antics, dry humor, like with what your air conditioner

or is a space heater air conditioner, I can't remember. But it's just sort of like, I mean, we're talking about like the fenty makeup on her on her head to like cover her like tattoos and like that. I just, you know, Denai is incredible. She's so good at this. movie.

Absolutely fantastic. And obviously, of course, is also very central to, in addition to that banter and humor early, the action and the Boston chase sequence, of course, there's a very memorable car chase sequence in Korea in the first film. This gives us some connective tissue to that. Also, of course, with Riri taking flight in the Mark I armor here, some connective tissue to early. Iron Man flight sequence. Oh, Iron Man.

Ever heard of it? Ever heard of them? This was like, I thought a notable, the Boston stretch in particular here, like a very notable with O'Coye, Riri Williams, and Shuri, women in action, women kicking ass,

women fighting, stretch as is, of course, the sequences where we get to see the Dora stopping the French incursion at the outreach center, none of which feels in any way, like, pandering to us like the A-Force team-up sequence that we've talked about before on other pods because the Dora are so central to Wakandan strength. So this feels so natural and authentic when we're seeing it here in the film. I really like that.

Well, I think also, so, you know, a lot of people have been critiquing the action set pieces of this film. Yes. I think pretty fairly. But I think the bridge fight in Boston is like the exception. A lot of people are like, that fight is incredible. And what I love, you know, the thing that I hate in a movie is when you have to have a female hench woman to fight a female superhero, right? And so I just love that she's fighting Atuma who is like, you know, huge and burly. And like this idea of like warrior, recognized warrior between the two of them.

The way they keep calling each other out as warrior over the rest of the movie every time they run into each other. I love that. But like, yes, I mean, deny everything with Adora in general, but like a Coyet specifically is just so. There's something just so, I don't know. It's just, it's badass, simply badass. That's all. Coyer is awesome. Joe, tell us a little bit about the, let's do some, some Midnight Angels chat for a second here.

Take us a little through some of the comics canon and how the Midnight Angels arc manifested in the film. Okay. There's a joke throughout this movie that the Midnight Angels armor is ugly. And then it just is ugly in the end. And I don't know why you would make a joke about how ugly your armor is if you're not going to make it better by the end of the movie, which they don't. I thought the Midnight Angels thing was a big mistake, honestly, because the movie, they don't make enough room in the movie for it. So we should say, The Midnight Angels is a comic book storyline. Introduced in 2010, they became more central in the Coates run, 2016. But what's really interesting about the Midnight Angels is that, like, Anneka, who the Michaela Cole character, sort of like similar to Akoya being stripped here in this movie of her Dora position. and Eneka executes a chieftain in cold blood for abusing the women of his tribe.

She's sentenced to death. She's rescued by Io, and then they steal the Midnight Angel Armor, and they go around liberating women of Wakanda. So there's a couple, and, you know, those women are lovers in the comic book. We get a very, very tiny, brief 10-second acknowledgement about this movie. That is, unsurprisingly, has already been cut out for the Kuwaiti release. It's like, this is a lot of what Disney does with its like slight nudging nod towards a queer relationship is that they make it so they can easily snip it out of the movie for international release, which I think is shameful.

And there was some IEO queer stuff cut out of the first Black Panther movie. I saw that footage on the Marvel studio on the lot and then they cut it out of the movie, right? So they've cut it a couple times. But I just don't think there's room for it. I think it's bizarre to have Michaela Cole, who is so phenomenal, have such a tiny part in this movie. And we can assume that they're setting up some of this stuff for the Wakanda TV show. That has to be why it's here. But it just comes off as wildly distracting.

My brain was just sort of like, why is Michaela Cole here this much? They're trying to establish her as this, like, rebellious character. She's got her, like, little weapons that she has some sort of relationship with Shuri that we're not really getting. enough information about all that sort of stuff. I thought the minagels armor at the end looked really bad. And I thought either do it or don't do it. But again, this is like a servant. This is this movie serving so many different masters.

Yes and no. Because Ryan Coogler is making that Wakanda show that they're doing on Disney Plus. He's also making the Ironheart show that they're doing a Disney Plus. This is the Ultron problem. where Avengers Age of Ultron got really creaky under the weight of all the other project that they were trying to pivot to

off of Ultron. And Joss Whedon as a filmmaker and that particular case was fighting Marvel Tooth and Nail to keep his story in and, you know, put Thor in a pool and have him, you know,

think about Ragnarok and whatever, right? But like, in this case, at least, it's Ryan Cougler and Ryan Cougler's other projects, right? Ironheart and the Wakanda show. But like, it still just all becomes part of this jumbled ephemera that's clogging up this pure, beautiful story that we've been talking about. And the last thing I want to say is that Cynott Adlaka, who is a writer that I really admire over on Vulture, wrote this great piece about how the way that the Midnight Angels are used in this movie is so counter to their, role in the comics.

We're in the comics they are questioning the monarchy and they are part of bringing democracy to Wakanda. And their whole role is we see flaws in the leadership here and we are going to go do what we do. The way they're used here is as sort of like unblinking, unthinking agents of a monarch in Shuri who is gone rogue, who is being. being driven by something that at the end of the day, she decides, and we all decide,

and Ramonda from beyond decide, was the wrong way to go. So to use the Midnight Angels who are sort of, who are defiant revolutionaries and make them, you know, instruments of Shuri in her least rational moments is a bizarre turn of events.

That's my Mid-Nad Angels rant. How do you feel about it, Mal? Yeah, no, I was, I was very surprised by how little Michaela Cole we got, given what an incredible performer she is and how excited everybody was by the casting and the news that she would be in the film. And, you know, and Florence.

I was going to say similarly with Florence, like she's in multiple episodes of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier and had like a really central role there. So I was also very surprised that she didn't have more screen time and factor more prominently to this story. But as you say, there are so many different things going on in the movie that this was one of the threads that just unfortunately didn't have as much time as we were hoping. I mean, I would be so surprised if the Wicconda show isn't like a Dora show. But sort of similarly to Shang Chi, which is serving, you know, an upcoming Disney Plus show.

It's just, I don't know. This is the phase that we're in with Marvel where I'm like, and when you do it in a show that feels, a film that feels lower stakes, I mind it less because I understand all the place they're spinning. But, you know, when you're trying to do it in concert with this very serious meditation and what it means to lose someone and for all of us to lose Chadwick Boseman, I just, I was a little bummed out by it. Let's chat about Mbaku for a moment here. Complete reversal. What's the opposite of bummed about? Over the moon about Mbacou. Winston Duke, a treat and a delight, as always, loved the carrot and the callback to the

vegetarians moment with Ross from the first film. You know, we've already mentioned this, but his relationship with Shury in the film was a real highlight not only because we got of what we got in the movie in a vacuum, but of course because of the real progression that represents from where

these characters started together where they were vehemently opposed in the first film. Carlos, can we hear what Mbaku said about Shuri on Challenge Day on the first Black Panther movie? We have watched with disgust as your technological advice

have been overseen by a child who scoffs a tradition. I love Mbaku, always. Great stuff. Now, Shuri just brings this up directly acknowledges that moment in this film really effectively reminding us of how far these characters have come together. And it's not just that Mbaku is

there to provide. counsel, we learn that Tachala asked him, specifically asked him to advise his sister. And that was like an incredibly moving thing to learn. I think, so Winston Duke, by the way, fantastic Instagram follow one of the highlights of my last like four years on Instagram following Winston Duke. I mean, so much needed, along with Akoy and Boston, like much needed lightness and comic relief for this film, right? But like, with the wisdom and the gravity as well, his leadership, his role on the larger council, all of that. And I think that it feels like such a natural progression. It doesn't feel like a reversal.

It feels like a natural organic character growth. And I think also to go back to that idea of like ally ship that Sean brought up. But like, okay, so this is a movie that is so female-fronted, as you pointed out, in a hopefully non-a-force feeling kind of way. Like, to have this, like, you know, perfect symbol of masculinity in Mbaku, support Shuri. in her leadership. There's nothing very healing watching that. Sort of like when people in rings of power are like, Gelladryl, wow.

She's incredible. It's Galadryl. You know, to have him be supportive of the women, specifically black women in this film is like, that's very important to me. And it was awesome, too, when Shuri emerges in the Black Panther suit for the first time, who steps up for the test of strength,

who steps forward to meet her, to show, to validate the power. It's Mbaku. That was a really, really cool moment. We already talked, you know, we hit this earlier that everybody's waiting for Shuri and it's Mbaku who steps out and says, Shuri is elsewhere.

The idea of Mbaku on Challenge Day issuing the challenge. Is there anything else that you wanted to circle back to here or add on the theory front about what might be afoot? So we got this email from Gavin who said was the last thing that takes place in Maconda with the challenge day,

the beginning of a game of throne style fight for a succession of the throne, add in Tichella's son is heir. Do we now have a set up for a three-way fight for the title of Black Panther? That's an interesting question

about like, you know, we have to assume that Tichala, Prince Tichala, we don't know when we're getting a Black Panther three, but like we have to assume that like an older

Prince Tachala is something that we will see in Black Panther 3. You and I both agree that whatever Mbako is doing here feels like it was probably sanctioned by Shuri, so I don't think that Shuri is going to come back and say, how dare you steal my throne? It feels like something they decided on together.

Whether or not Tchala is, Prince Chichala is going to want the throne and whether or not Mbaku will feel like giving up the throne is a question. The other question I have, about to get, we're about to leave the Wicondans.

Is there a rule somewhere that says you can only have one Black Panther at a time? This reminds me of the prophecy conversation in House of the Dragon. Why don't we have, why aren't, why isn't Mbaku and Prince Chichala and Nakia and Akoye all, like, scarfed down the heart-shaped herb is my question. Even if it's been tradition that there's only one, you know, we're just synthesizing heart-shaped herbs now. Like, this is a new era.

Yeah, I did have a like a question. I'm sure there's an answer to this, but I was thinking given what we learn about the history of Talekon, which we're about to talk about more, the vibranium enriched aquatic plant that Namor's mother and everybody initially adjusts there, that everybody had, everyone in Talicon has, now Namor is a mutant, he is distinct,

but everybody has the super strength, the super speed, etc. There's an implication, unless they're all constant, like when you're born, you, maybe it's just in the water. Take the plant?

Maybe, yeah, because like I was, what I was wondering is like, does, is there an implication there that those powers pass genetically through birth? And if that's the case,

why wouldn't that also be the case for the heart-shaped herb? Um, it's a great question. I don't know. And I think, I think they should, I think Wakanda should consider that. I think every, every Wakanda should be as strong as Black Panther. Let's talk about Talakon Joe. We're, we're going to hit Namor specifically in a minute here, but just big picture.

New MCU canon. Talicon replaces Atlantis. In the comics, Namor is from Atlantis. This gives the MCU canon a, Mesoamerican identity, as you already noted. Why did the MCU make this switch? I think we would be remiss if we did not say, Aquaman and Atlantis are central to DC films right now.

Certainly, more broadly, though, there was a desire to do something new here. Ryan Coogler had a great interview with Inverse, where he explained this a little bit more. Here's the quote. There have been a lot of representations and creative depictions of Atlantis based off of Plato's Atlantis, the Greco-Roman concept of a city sunk into the sea.

That idea exists in a lot of different ways. We wanted our film to exist alongside those movies and be different. It was really out of respect to the audience, not wanting to give them something similar to other things that have come before it. And so we learn and we see how Talekon traces its roots to the Yucatan. We see the Spanish colonists bringing smallpox upon the pie. five centuries ago, the need, the way that the shaman discovers the vibranium-enriched aquatic plant that they then ingest, how all of this happens in the first place. We get this

great origin sequence. One more quote from Kugler to inverse. In the Black Panther film we released in 2018, we did the work of making sure the choices we made were culturally specific. We did deep, deep dives and employed academics and consultants to make sure we were getting it right and representing them with intention and reception. respect. We want to do the same thing when bringing another culture to life. We settled on classic and post-classic Mayan civilizations around the Yucatan region as a base for our story from there. It started to really take off. Joe, how did this reinterpretation and re-contextextualization of Namor and his people work for you? So we already talked about this idea of like, you know,

what can an indigenous society do without fucking colonial conquest getting in the way? So that's part of it. This idea, again, of us versus them versus we, sort of like Namor can make this plea to Shory when he says, us versus the surface world. But what he means, I mean, maybe the larger surface world, but it feels like what he more means is like the white colonizers. You know what I mean?

And here is us. I share this experience with you. This is what happened when the Spanish came to me. This is what happened to my culture. This is how I lost my method. there, like, all that sort of stuff. And again, and we saw that very specific, I've seen a lot of people point this out, which I really love, this very specific act of brutal colonization depicted in internals

as, like, a turning point for a number, for the non-interventionist ideology of the eternals is like, how can we watch this brutality and turn a blind eye? And obviously, as to can Mayan, various Mesoamerican cultures have built into our understanding of, you know, various ruins and artifacts, stuff like that. This really, really cool, interesting, technologically minded, scientifically minded approach to their society. So I think this is a brilliant move. the idea that Namor in the comics is Roman backwards. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

But here is like, Ninos Sin Amor is like, I don't know. It just all works for me. Yeah, that was great. I just loved it. Yeah. Yeah, it was so cool. You know, you mentioned the technological advancement. So we learned that this other vibranium deposit,

another meteor presumably landed in the ocean and enriched the aqua plant in much the same way that the vibranium that landed in Wakanda, enrich the empowered the heart-shaped herb there. We should say in the comics corner front, there's precedent in the comics for vibranium

outside of Wakanda. There are five reported varieties in the comics of vibranium on Earth. The most notable one other than the Wakandan variety is the, is antimetal, the Antarctic variety. So, not like

completely new or stunning to say there's vibranium somewhere else that all, I think, tracks very cleanly. It's not like a boulog has like shot mithril through the core of Middle Earth or anything. Yeah, exactly. Oh, boy. Joe, how did you enjoy your first glimpse of, of TalaCon? I really loved that we got to see it through Shuri's eyes because she is such a genius. and such an inventor and an innovator.

And so to see how impressed and odd she is, heightens our natural impulse to feel that way too. I mean, I didn't love, love, love all the, like, business leading up to them getting to the main city, the various, like, tunnels that they had to shoot through, the mex suit, like all that sort of stuff I didn't love. But once we were in it, I was like, this is dazzling. I thought it looked so cool.

Hannah Beechler, who's the production designer, and we should shout out incredible work. Also throughout incredible work from Ruth Carter in the costume front. But I just love, I felt like we got this incredible sense of a culture. I could have used, we'll get to this a little bit later when we talk about Namor's like hench folk, but I could have used maybe like a few more people in this community that I knew better than just Namor. But in terms of like a tour through a place and in terms of like seeing like kids, It's play games and what this world is and what is what they stand to lose.

We've talked about this a lot in terms of like rings of power and and or this idea of like, show us what you're defending. Show us what you're afraid of losing. And I think, I think this is beautiful. And I love, you know, here we have to make the James Cameron Avatar comp. But like what's so funny is like, you know, James Cameron is obsessed with underwater. stuff because it's in Titanic and it's in the abyss. And my first thought was of the abyss, actually, when, like, their first going into all this stuff. But what I love in all of this is that,

you know, Sean and Amanda on the big pick, we're like, how can this possibly compare to what James Cameron is going to do with Avatar the Way of the Water? Ben and Charles and I saw a bunch of footage at D23 of Avatar Way of the Water. It is truly astonishing. It looks amazing. However, these are, like, people, these are physical bodies, actors doing 10,000. tank work crushing it for me. I think the scene where Namor comes down

onto the throne is a reverse shot in order to make that work. It looks astounding to me. I just thought, I thought, and I like how dark and murky this is. I want to talk about

some of the visuals elsewhere, but I loved, I loved the murkyness. I thought this was a slam dunk. Yeah, I felt this was all great. I, I wish we could have spent even more time. I can't wait to go back to the Talekon.

I can't wait to be back with Namor. But to the murkiness point, I really love that too because, like, you feel, you were laughing at me when we were prepping. And I said, like, I liked how much, like, seaweed and just plant life there is everywhere. But you just feel the depth of the ocean. I'm really laughing at you because in our notes, you put,

Telecon is dark and full of seaweed. Yeah. You just, like, you just like, did a melancho. Alessandra. Dark of Bulls. I also have elsewhere in the outline shout out whales.

You know, I love the ocean, Joe. Love being in the ocean. But yeah, like I, the parallels. You have spoken about this already.

We will talk about it more when we get to the conversations between Namor and Shuri and how central these parallels between Talakana and Wakanda that he's drawing on are. But like you really just feel it innately.

as you were moving through the capital city and you see the children playing, which we then, which we see in Wakanda. You know, we, we see the way that the people of Talakhan greet each other, the,

the hand symbol. And like we can think of, of the corollaries in Wakanda. So that was like a really, I'd love that hand symbol. Oh, yeah, was great.

Yeah. That was all, like, that really helped not only do what you're citing, which is essential of, of establishing this world for us. And Namor, like,

that idea that you just raised, Nymor just said, that. Like outright to sure you see now what I have to protect. Like we have to see that too. But also that tour really does help us cement these connections, which was great. I wanted to, before we get to Namor, I wanted to ask what you made of Namor saying, telling his people that they would not move again. Because that clearly indicates that they have moved before. Now, who knows when we will return to this world? Maybe we'll get prequel storytelling. and we'll spend more time in the past.

Obviously, we'll spend more time there in the future. Could this connect to an Easter egg that MCU fans have been talking about for years, which is the Shield map in Iron Man 2 and the dot, the beacon that everybody speculated for a long time, could be Atlantis? Do you think there was a shield detection at some point that led to Talicon needing to move? Something deeper in the past? I love this theory. Adore this theory.

Shield. Someday. Marvel will give us all these answers, maybe. Joe, we should just say also more broadly before we chat about Namor or more specifically. I can't, like, I can't wait, Mallory. I know. We've spent this long without talking about Namor's thighs than it's a cry against humanity. I know.

I know. Plenty of thigh talk coming, I promise. Long, long, long history. Yeah. between Atlantis and Wakanda in the comics. This is a rich storytelling vein to tap here. There's a lot of comics history of Atlantis and Wakanda in conflict. There's also rich comics history of Namor and Tachala,

Namor and Shri other characters, Wakanda and Atlantis, aligning in some way. There is a crucial stretch of the canon that involves, an incursion and connects and leads to some central secret wars canon. Now, it's not going to happen note for note that way in the film because the comics version of this involves Thanos, Infinity Stones, we've done that.

I mean, who knows? I guess they were in a drawer and Loki. Maybe we'll see them again. They're marbles in a drawer now, Valerie. It don't matter. Have you heard of them loud. Have you heard of the paper weights? Boy.

Yeah. the question of when we will next see Namor, I legitimately cannot wait to find out the answer to that. Safe to say that Talakon and Wakanda, Namor and Shuri will, based on comics precedent, have some bearing on the path to Secret Wars and Secret Wars itself. Anything else you want to say about the comics aspects of all of that before we hit our...

corner. High corner. Let's do it. Namor the Submariner. Created by Bill Everett, debuted in 1939. Marvel Comics number one. Great chat.

The Midnight Boys about this. Like, one of the oldest comics characters there is in the comics, mutant child of a human father, an Atlantean mother. We know the powers. I loved hearing Van talk about

like how comics fans were, specifically looking for the winged feet, like had down. I remember when we saw the, yeah, when we saw them in the trailer, we were like, the wing feet are here. There they are. And he is like a, one of the prominent anti-heroes across comics and much like we just outlined for Atlantis and Wakanda overall, Neymour in particular in his direct relationships with other characters, can be a foe or. a friend and it can change over time.

This is a true anti-hero in a way. I don't even know if Loki fits in this anti-hero mold as well as Namor does here. This is a real anti-hero. And this is like such a, it's a step beyond killmonger had some great ideas, but a bad execution, you know what I mean? Like this is so complicated and juicy. And again, it's why I wish we didn't have some of this other stuff cluttering up this movie because I love, I mean, Namor is a A plus hit for me in this movie.

10 out of 10, no notes. No notes. Like, zero, no notes. Like, fucking amazing. I love and respect Amanda Daven so much when she's like, I'm out on the wing feet. I'm like, I'm all the way in on the wing feet. I thought it worked really well. I loved like the step flying.

It's so cool. Could have looked so stupid and I thought it looked so good. Absolutely amazing. Not to mention the, you know, the green skivies, which we'll get to. Wonderful stuff. Can I talk to you about the film rights for Nabor for a second model? I was just going to ask you if you will please walk. walk. I can't.

No one understands it. I've talked about this before. We talked about this. Why did it take so long to get Namor into the MCU Joe? Why? Well, okay, here's my best answer. Yes. Is that he's associated closely with the Fantastic Four. Anyway, the question,

the thing is, we've talked about this before, but like... Namor Sue's Storm can't wait. Namor Fuchs. Like, let's just be honest. He has chemistry with Shuri. He has chemistry with everyone. Like, he has chemistry with the, like, grains of sand and the floating seaweed. Like, everyone, yeah, name more fucks.

But, like, the... Back before Disney swallowed everything. When we used to look at the various MC Marvel character rights situations across the various studios, Fox and Sony and Disney, there were always two big messy question marks and it was Namor and Kingpin and Kingpin and Kingpin because Daredevil and Spider-Man like where does Kingpin belong

and then Namor I have to think it's because of the Fantastic Four Association I don't have a I don't have a clear I feel like nobody's been able to explain the murky Namor situation. But what's true now is that Disney now owns Fantastic Four and now Namor is on the table. Is that a coincidence? I think not. There was stuff about like universal and who had the

distribution rights to, but all of that has for a long time been like genuinely and sincerely impossible for people to understand to the point where I think frankly like everyone at Marvel Entertainment kind of like stopped trying to even explain it because it was it was just it was challenging to grasp. The universal. The universal Yeah, yeah. Situation because of like the Hulk and like how you can't make a Hulk solo Marvel can't make a Hulk solo movie.

Quite a Quagmire. But they can make a Hulk supporting character movie because of their universal rights. It's complicated. Here's the upshot. It doesn't matter anymore and that's the great thing. But because of that, because of how long it took, you know, we just noted how...

Also a mutant. That complicates it too. Right. And of course we get the utterance of, the word mutin here says that he is a mutant. This is, you know, we can add this to Bruno talking about mutation in Miss Marvel and Mr. Immortal being present in She-Hulk

and of course Professor X in on another Earth in Dr. Strange, et cetera, like, but this is like flat out said. I'm a mutant. I was wondering, I was wondering, does that mean that the vibranium infusion infused aquatic plant that his mother ingested while he was in utero activated his X gene? Or did he become a mutant absent the X gene?

I'm excited to learn more about that in the future. Anyway, on the rights front, what I was going to say is because of how central Namor is as a comics figure, because of how long it took to get him into the MCU, an already incredibly central and important and beloved character, the hype was even big. bigger because of how long it took. We're at the end of phase four of the MCU, the 30th movie. Namor, this is one of the more anticipated arrivals for comics people. For comics people have no idea who Namor is, right?

It's not like, I can't wait to see who the new Spider-Man is, right? Like that goes beyond comic books, you know, but like from a comic front, yes. But given that hype among comics fans, how did the debut rate? I haven't. Yeah, you just. Everyone loves it. Adoration across the board. forward. I thought that this, I said this already, but like, I thought that this was one of the more,

from the character and storytelling perspectives, one of the more exciting and tantalizing introductions, and the performance was just incredible, like, riveting. I could watch, I could, I could, I could watch him all day. I'm just quoting Captain America now. I can do this all day, but I really could. Like, he was just exceptional. It's not just the thick thighs, but they're part of the whole thing. But yeah, like, Tenochua is, is phenomenal. Absolutely so good. So we want to hit a couple different aspects of Namor's role in the movie. Yeah. We are going to, we're going to save those quieter conversations for our favorite part for last. But let's hit the battles, the action. And first, let's hit his role as the feathered serpent god, not only a king, but as Mbaku notes,

a god to his people. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention on this front, Joe, in terms of how Talakhan thinks about Namor and the role that he has in the society? I think it's a great parallel to this idea of the Black Panther and the God-given gifts of, you know, the heart-shaped herb and bass being so involved. And so when we're talking about Shuri on this journey of science and faith and, and, you know, what religions and cultures mean to her, this idea of, like, we get the origin story of Namor. We see it.

We have no reason to disbelieve everything that we see in this flashback origin story. And so you could call him a god if you want to. Born of a mortal, you know, like, but it's, I don't know. It's like, Van kept making the Superman comp, and I think that it's a really good comp. you know what I mean? In this case, like, super strength can fly. Is godlike among men sort of thing? And again, like even among his people who also all have these abilities,

he is distinct. He can breathe underwater and on land. He exists across these worlds. You know, if you think about like one of the main pieces of marketing running up to the film, that really cool poster with the reflection above and below the water of Wakanda and Talekon, like he has this, he has no love. love for the surface world as we hear. Like a day walker.

Yeah, he can exist. Right. Yes. Yeah. And I love that distinct, the visual distinction of like the way in which his people turn blue when they come above surface, but he doesn't. Yeah. They have to wear the, the breathing mask.

The breathing apparatus. Yeah. And he does not. He's got the, the ears pointing toward the clouds, the winged feet, all of it. But also like the intro, the way he's introduced at the very beginning, right, where we get this sequence. Yeah. Take us through.

take us into the action sequences here. Like, let's see. Like, we get, like, they're already so scary. The siren aspect of, of his people. Yes, this hypnotic sonic attack. That's another, Joe, that's another great example of, like, the melding of tradition and science, because it's like, we hear it described as a sonic attack, put earplugs in. It's very technical.

But the idea of the siren out at sea, this is. mythology. This is mythology. Yeah. So like the the siren attack, they're so deadly. They're so deadly. They just make mince meat out of, out of the CIA and the seals here, right? And like, you have one escapee or two if you count the pilot, right? And you're like, they're going to, they're going to make it. And then here it's like, oh, you thought these were scary. We've got one that can fly. And like that. And we don't really even see him full. Like we see him and we don't see him. And it's such a cool, ominous introduction. Yeah. I thought this was incredibly

awesome. And like on the, on the lake bell front, I think on the one hand, seeing Lake Bell, it was fun. You know, she voices Natasha in what if. So that's like a fun connection across the MCU. It's always a treat to see Lake Bell to be clear. But I'm also like, oh, that's Lake Bell. So then it's another example of where you start to think, like, what, is there room for Lake Bell to be here? But that action scene was one of the better and more compelling action sequences in the film because it establishes how ominous these powers are. And yeah, like you're saying that swirling of the helicopter, you start right away

and you, this clarity builds scene after scene as we see more and we learn more about what Nemor can do. Like, you, I had moments before, before, right, for shuri and re-re crack the dehydration element and like figure out the the jellyfish comp of not only breathing but absorbing the water through his skin like a jellyfish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Another Superman comp there. But like he starts immediately. You're like, well, where does he rank instantly among the most powerful characters in the

story? You've got like a lot of Thor comps, the god, a god to his people. the super strength of the flight, etc. But like, we literally hear Mbaku after the harrowing chest bunch describe his strength as comparable to the hoax. Now we learn that there's this like

powering up after going back into the water, but Namor is like at a power level inside of the MCU instantly that is supreme. Is he overpowered? Is a question? Oh, interesting. I think not only because they were

they were able to give us the the kryptonite. This is the question when we got vision and we got the Scarlet Witch in the MCU is like, how do you fight? Honestly, really, how do you fight the Scarlet Witch who can make you see whatever she wants to make you see? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. And so, and how do you fight the vision? You know, the MCU has found ways to put those characters in the back heel, but like, yeah, Namor. As long as he can like, you know, dip a toe back in the water. It's fucking unbeatable.

But I do think it's really interesting this trajectory for him in this film because, you know, we see his backstory the way of the Spanish colonialist like burnt his people or his ancestors at least.

And then you know, his mom dying and then watching him come in with that iron fist of the empire that we've been talking about in Andor and crush, absolutely crush a place like Wakanda and kill Shuri's mother. And so there's ways in which

Namor becomes, you know, the vision of the thing that he hates most in pursuit of defending his own empire. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's a sophisticated complication for an anti-hero like this. Agreed. And like especially toward the end when Shuri is ordering him to yield, and they are both flashing to images of their mothers, images of their communities, and we think of them in that moment as again these parallels and these connections.

But then you think, yeah, well, one of these connections is a thing I took from you. and how deeply, deeply dismaying that is. What did you make of the attack on Wakanda overall? Because that's another thing that really crystallizes for us, not only his power specifically, but the might of Talakon, you know, when he first approaches, I mean, he penetrates the barriers in the first moment with Ramonda and Shuri.

and he tells them that he has more warriors than Wakanda has blades of grass. And then later, when they do attack, and after he kills Ramonda, he gives the speech, tells them to take the time to bury their dead and to mourn and tell Shuri, she's the queen now. And there is not a second where he appears to think that he will lose. Isn't it a testament to Tenochwerta in general and then like Namor as characters he's written here that like we end the movie with Shuri and Namor being like, we're pals now it's fine. And then he has the more ominous like for now sort of thing. But like that we're like, can't wait to see more Namor. And I'm kind of rooting for Namor when he like killed Ramonda.

again, that's just like a dazzling, dazzling introduction of a character. It is just utterly magnetic. Before we get to some of those quieter conversations, the last like action stretch that we need to talk about here is Shuri's attack, which we've hit on already, but really focusing on like the Namor, the combat aspect of it. There are like kind of two parts of this, right? There's the one-on-one showdown between Shuri and Namor, which I liked and thought was cool. very stressful. Correct. Correct.

The broader set piece here was not our, not our favorite part of the film. Though again, shout out whales. This is where I say shout out whales. I do. I just like, why did, why attack the talakoneal on water? I'm very confused by that because then they could use, they could bring the whales. They could use their water bombs. We see Nemora under the ship deactivated.

the vessel because she's a superpowered aquatic being. So that was very confusing. They just like roll up with an entire, you know. Yeah, that was very strange. I just thought also like this was one of the, this was one of the less successful stretches of the film because like it was for me at least a little bit harder to, we're tracking so many different, different characters.

And I'm very invested in the Shuri Namor fight, but we're also tracking the Midnight Angels. We're tracking Riri. There's just a lot happening in that stretch, which is to be, again, to be fair, like, not, that's a just a, that's a recurring thing across every, almost every Marvel property. I mean, this is why there's that scene at the end of Shee Hulk where, you know, she goes in and talk to Kevin K-E-V-I-N about like, you know, Marvel's famous. third act fight problem. And like, the comp in Black Panther, there's a similar, you know, you've got Eric and Tachala are fighting in the like, you know, Wakandan Metro underground. And then you've got the battle that's raging elsewhere where we're following Shuri and Akoye and Nekia and like everything that's happening up above. And that is one of the least successful parts of that

movie. People do not like that killmonger, Tachala fight visually. for the VFX reasons. But I think the above ground fight, the battle in general is a little bit more successful. There's clarity of where the various factions are and what they're doing and you're worried about Shuri and you're worried about Nakiya and all this sort of stuff. This ship fight really not a fan of.

Because again, and I think it combines, we haven't even talked really at length about Riri yet, but Midnight Angels and Rimi are two of the least successful elements of the film for me. And so you like put all that in there. And then it's like, I just, yeah, shout out whales. But I was just like every time we cut away from the beach fight, I was like, I want to go back to the beach fight, please.

That's where like our main character, Shuri, is undergoing this huge emotional catharsis in order to win the battle. And that I am extremely invested in. And this other stuff over here is not working for me. Yeah. And the one-on-one was, it was so interesting too because. again, this is not, to be clear, not a prequel. This is our first time seeing Namor in the MCU,

but we talk a lot about like in prequels or certain other stretches, like the idea of stakes. And if you know kind of what an outcome is or you really can anticipate what an outcome is, does it ever sap what you're watching of some of its heft? Yeah, the tension.

And I think it's like really a credit to this one-on-one Shuri versus Namor showed it on the beach that, like, you just, you know that Namor is not a one-we. movie character. Like, he's just not. It's, it's not going to happen. They didn't wait that long to bring Namor in to only use him in one film.

And the performance is so electric. Like, there's just not a, they're not a part of your, right? Killmonger mistake. Yeah, there's like not a part of your brain watching that that really thinks he's going to die. But when Shuri activates the, the fire plume and burns him to a crisp, you're like, completely. caught up in that moment despite the part of your brain that knows he's probably going to make it out okay.

And it's like, meanwhile, bucket whale fight. And I'm like, oh. I wish we got to learn more about the whales. I hope we get to see them again. Me too. I hope they got their own Disney Plus show. Yeah. Makes me think of your guy the deep, you know.

Oh, my guy the deep? I do have a whole calendar that's just the deep. It's just the deep and Timothy, your entire month by month calendar. Wow, I didn't know that Chase and I had such a close relationship. It was good to know. Joe, let's talk a bit more about some of these conversation-driven. Namor scenes, though, because these were absolute highlights. Yeah.

Highlights. That initial approach, the first meeting where he arrives and interrupts Ramon Donsuri as they are mourning. And his resentment that Wakanda deciding to end its isolation. exposed his world to that hunger for vibranium. He says, the air is pristine and the water. My mother told stories about a place like this, a protected land with people that never have to leave, that never have to change who they are.

What reason do you have to reveal your secret to the world? This was great. I think, again, it's a testament to Tenetian to Namor that, like, this pause for monologuing backstory in an, you know, underground mural room, you know, it doesn't seem like the, the movie coming to a thudding stop, you know? Yes. I loved every scene between Namor and Shuri. And Namor and Ramonda. Yes, as well. Yes.

every, you're right that like the origin, the exposition, it doesn't grind the movie because it is just so compelling to, to watch him. I loved the gift. This is where we get the gifting of the bracelet, which is like this very meaningful thing. This is his mother's bracelet, this heirloom of the origin of Talaigon. That's just sitting there on a table and she's like, what's all this then? He's like, oh, this. Precious, precious artifact. obviously Chekhov's vibranium-laced bracelet

and ends up proving crucial when she uses, she studies that and deconstructs that and uses that to then successfully recreate the synthetic heart-shaped herb. I wonder if the fact that the new hard-shaped herb connects to the aquatic plant will lead to anything that's new or different about her powers or in some way, like, heighten this new connection. Oh, skills for Shuri. Because I really need Shuri to be able to hang out underwater because I ship it.

I ship it, too. Yeah. Again, I ship anymore with everyone, just to be clear, like, electric chemistry with everyone. The way he's, like, circling Ramonda, like, looking at her, like, she's an entire meal. Anyway, we got an email from Sophie, who said, I know how. Sivar can sometimes be the home of ships. I'm probably the only one who feels like this, but I feel some vibes between Shuri and in Baku.

Their relationship throughout the movie can be seen as enemies and lovers, an older brother, little sister, or just two people in positions of power, doing what's best for their people. But then we got this email from Lacey. It's the same email that we talked about up top, but Lacey wrote, also I've clearly been watching too much House of the Dragon because I kept thinking that this movie was going to end with a diplomatic marriage between Shuri and Namor. Teno Shwerto is such a hot potato. How could you not?

Um, I definitely feel the shiri, the shiri and Baku stuff did feel like older brother or little sister to me more. But the shirri, uh, Neymour vibes. I mean, he gave her his mother's bracelet. It feels like a gift of intent or something. But, um, but then I was thinking about this. Um, I've seen a lot of really good TikToks lately about this trend in YAA literature. And Buffy is like the chief, uh, uh, bad case of this. where it's like, I am an immortal being who has lived forever.

Here's this interesting teenager who I've met. She's the one and you're like, oh, is she? I don't know how old sherry is at this point, 21, something like that. But anyway, yes, I still ship it. I just, I'm interested to see, I obviously can't wait for the Namor, the Sue Storm stuff that I assume is coming at some point. But like, do you want to promise that for people who don't know, Namor and Fantastic Four and his home record vibe. A little bit of a home record. Yeah. I think that's,

that's the important thing to know. But I think just in general, I was like, this guy's been around for five centuries. Like, I want to know more about, has he been in love? Like, who is he, who has he developed meaningful relationships with? Like, I, all jokes aside about the palpable, the chemistry that he has with everyone he interacts with in the movie. I, and, am really interested in like seeing namor and that part of his life in in future installments. I really, I really want to know more about about his life. I thought that like the sequence where he, we get the origin story as he's explaining it to show we get the tour of Talekon. But like the conversation where he's pitching her on the alliance, this was just like an incredible scene.

And they were so, so, so good together. This is where Joe, you know, the quote that you shared earlier from the end of Black Panther was like really top of mind for me, this idea of like, we must find a way to look after one another. But how Namor is positioning their ability to do that for each other as a way to do it against the surface world. Right. He's saying the us is us.

It's Wakanda and Telecon. It's like we brown people and you black people against like what else is going on here. Right. Oppressed populations. But also then these, the way that they share this vibranial. power and the technological and intellectual and military might and these rich and vibrant cultures and isolationism, which is ongoing for Talekon and of course has concluded for Wakanda, but was the case for Wakanda for a long time. So he's, yeah, he's focusing

on those parallels. Astonishingly, we haven't gotten to like our reresection of this outline yet, but like the idea of like, especially when you think about. again, that end of Black Panther, the idea of putting up sort of an outpost in Oakland, the idea that like Eric Chilmander grows up in Oakland. So like what is Wakanda's relationship to black Americans? And so like why Riri is like as, you know, young black and gifted woman at MIT, like how Wakanda feels responsible for? her. So again, what is the us here and what is the them? And Namor is pitching the us is on

Tala Khan and Wakanda. And then Shuri is saying, yeah, but the us is also Wakanans and black Americans. You know what I mean? Like, or Wakandans and black people around the world. Like, that is also an us that we are invested in. So yes. Shuri is not interested in waging war and accepting this this pitch and waging war against the surface world. I think that one of the reasons that they're, that this conversation in particular, but their scenes in general together were so crackling, is like this idea that he says to her,

only the most broken people can be great leaders. And again, like their losses, the people that they have lost, the pain that they have felt, it's specific to their lives and their circumstances. But when we're flashing, when they're looking at each other, we're flashing back and forth in the end

to their mothers and the people in their lives. Like, it is a recognition of the way that grief can shape you and how challenging forging that path forward is. I, we got like a great, another, we get that we see that Neymour's painting in the cavern, painting a mural of this,

of this showdown, but also, this entanglement. Yeah, like an entanglement between Namor and the Black Panther, between him and Shuri, and Namora asks him to explain, like, what happened here? Why did you yield? Just remind you of Kevin asking El Farazan, why he's, well, why the Numenorians want to help the people of Middleer? Okay, anyway. Good old Farizan.

Love El Faris on. Miss Numeron. But like his, his, not only his explanation here, but through that we can glean his decision in real time, which of course I'm sure he wanted to live and continue on. But like, he has not given up at all on this pursuit of an alliance with Wakanda and sees that attack from the surface world. The fact that the surface world that these, these, that the U.S., these power, power, power. our hungry government bodies and people will go after Wakanda will go after their vibranium. And again, based on what we've seen in the other sequences of the film, we know he's right that that is inevitable. And that when that happens, Wakanda will turn to Talakhan for the exact partnership that he was seeking here.

This is something that, you know, there's like a little bit of a well, this is how you're explaining your decision to your people. But it feels like he believes this sincerely to be true. Anything else you want to say about Namora and Atuma, by the way, while we're talking about the Warriors and comics canon characters? And I thought Ruth Carter did an incredible job of like in terms of their adornments, making them feel like, oh, I need to pay attention to these characters. Namara with her incredible, like, feathered headdress, Atuma with his, I don't know, shark jaw thing that he had on. on, you know, his headdress. Nimara in the comics being Namorah's cousin, but also, you know, Targaryen style.

Some romance. But these are characters Namura and Atuma. Again, if it were me, I would strip out some Riri stuff, some Midnight Angel stuff, and good old Val and Ross, we're going to get to them. And I would give us a few more telekineal characters who feel like actual characters rather than like one guy and his two hench people. You know what I mean? Like I feel like no more we get a little bit of in this last conversation, but I would have loved even more of them at this point.

Like I feel like I know Ebony Ma like better than I know these characters. That fucker Ebony Ma. Ebony Ma, who I know I love. but like, you know, the children of Thanos, I think, get even more, you know. Especially because like we get that moment where after Nekiah rescues Riri and Shuri and there's the sonic round. So one of Namor's people dies and we get that. It's quick, but we get that final conversation, Namor comforting one of his people and she asks him if he can heal her. And it's like, yeah, it would be really cool to see even more moments like that.

On the Atuma front, I was wondering if, because Atuma in the comics is traditionally a rival to Namorra, an opponent. Mm-hmm. If the Namorah name more conversation about like, walk me through it. Why did she yield? What happened here is setting up Atuma rebelling against that decision and war inside of Telecon in the future? It could be. But like the question is like, how soon. are we going to get Black Panther 3, you know?

Well, but do we have to wait until Black Panther 3 to see Talicon again? I would be surprised. But who knows? I mean, there are so many, as you know it, and so many different future MCU projects that connect to what we saw here, including, of course, Ironheart. So let's go, let's hit the Americans. Let's talk about Riri.

Just like one last moment of silence for Namor and is thick thighs. Thigh, save lives. And I just, wonderful stuff. Shout out to the, like, teeniest costume we've, like, ever seen in an MCU property. It's such a, such a riot when Ramona's initially pushing back against the idea that they have vibranium. And I'm sure he's like, mother, he's covered in it. And it's like, covered. All right.

Let's talk about Riri. Okay. Riri Williams enters the MCU Ironheart. Comics Corner quickly created by Brian Michael Bendis. And Mike Diodado in 2016, Invincible Iron Man, Volume 2, number 7. Eve L. Eweing has really acclaimed Ironheart run, which began in 2018. Eve had a great interview with Jay and Rosie over on X-ray Vision. If you're interested in learning more about the comics history here and Ironheart's recent run,

who is Reilly Williams, a Chicago-based super genius, makes your way to MIT, reverse engineers, Iron Man's armor eventually builds her own suit works with Iron Man in the comics. That's a key distinction, unless we get some real flashback stuff here at some point and assumes the Iron Heart mantle when Tony falls into a coma. This is the Civil War II timeline generally. Dominic Thorne's MCU debut. I thought she was absolutely delightful, so charming. I loved the levity and the humor.

The latest, you know, precocious youngster to be introduced into phase four of the MCU who's assuming the mantle or an updated new version that is specific to this character, mantle of an infinity saga staple. I thought it was interesting that Tony and Stark Tech and Iron Man, it's more of a kind of reference here, casual, reference than like a central focus and that, you know, certainly is like there's not a lot of time in this movie to talk about Tony Stark, but we see, you know, the arc reactor sketches. We've got the Mark I lingo. Obviously the Mark one suit. It's very clear that the Stark Tech and Iron Man is

fueling this. The mention of a YouTube channel makes us think of Peter Parker. We think of Peter in association with Tony inside of the MCU, etc. You mentioned Joe already. like this question after Black Panther and after Wakanda opens up to the world of what Wakanda means to black Americans and black people around the globe. I thought it was really neat to see Riri's reverence for Wakanda immediately when Shuri enters her dorm room. She recognizes Shuri. She knows who she is right away. She asks with such excitement, if she's being recruited. And then when she does go to Akonda, it says that it exceeds her expectations. And that rapport in general between Re and Shiri, these two young geniuses, was really cool to see right away like Shuri looking around in the garage and just saying everything in this garage works.

And she knows that because she could see talking about the bit encryption and how we rebuilt this machine that we haven't actually mentioned. This Vibradium detecting machine. Vibranium, we know no metal detector can identify it. And so Riri, this 19-year-old Wiz kid, has done something that nobody else could figure out how to do. Nobody else in the world could figure out how to do, which is detect vibranium. We see them working together in Shory's lab figuring out how to dehydrate Namor. Riri gets to construct the bark-toe Iron Heart Armor in Wakanda. Doesn't get to take it home.

and they have this like emotional moment too. It's a quick one, but with the car at the end, this like shared recognition of lingering grief because Shuri finds all of the pieces of the car which she could tell from the garage scene meant so much to Riri and has reconstructed this car and Riri mentions this connection

that it was her dads and they share this little moment there. So Riri, Ironheart. Yeah, I... So thinking about the Young Avengers and the Men Night Boys had this conversation as well as like what is a successful intro, you know, and you and I have been talking for an entire year or now about this idea of Marvel being in a passing of the torch phase. This is a double torch pass movie, right? Because you get a new Black Panther and a new Iron Suit character. Obviously, we'll have more time with the Iron Heart TV show to spend with Riri and like see how that all feels.

And I'm really looking forward to that. But in general, in terms of, like, introductions, I think this is a less successful one for me than, like, something like cute bishop or Kamala Khan. I would put this more in the rank of, like, America Chavez, where I'm just sort of, like, I see what they're trying to do, right? Van was making the argument that, like, perhaps if Chadwick were still the central, you know, hero of this movie and it was, like, Riri and Tchala. it would feel a little different or a little closer to Peter Parker and Tony Stark than, as you say, two, you know, similarly aged, technologically advanced, you know, she's essentially meeting like, yeah, Pierce versus like a, what we imagine is going to be when Kamala Khan meets Carol Danvers or Kay Bishop meeting Hawkeye, etc. I think that's part of why I liked it because it was like it's, it's different than just. the like mentor mentee. I've been thinking about it.

It doesn't need to be the same. Like we don't need the exact same model. I just, I don't know what it was. Like Dominic Thorne, who I've seen in a number of films at this point, is a great performer. So I can't, it's not that I feel like this role is miscast or anything like that. I just, it just felt clunky to me. And I also didn't. Also, the suit is tough because.

Yeah. Yes. The Iron Man suit as a concept, you know, and something that they did so early, beyond the Marvel in the MCU, which is brilliant, to crack this issue of coding an incredibly charismatic actor like Tony Stark in armor is the heads-up display, right? They came up with that as an idea to keep Robert Downey Jr. in the mix

while we're looking at the Iron Man suit. It's different. Robert Johnny Jr. versus Dominic Thorne in the heads-up display. It just, it feels different. And, like, you know, I'm excited for the MCU to get younger to get less white, to get less male. Like, all that stuff really excites me. But as a passing of the torch, I don't find like this to be super successful,

but I am interested in the Ironheart TV show and how that feels. We're going to be spending a lot of time with Riri in impending MCU projects because not only the Iron Heart series, which is coming later next year on Disney Plus, but Rie was going to be in Armour Wars, which was originally a series now of film. This idea of like the proliferation of Stark Tech, certainly that's going to involve Riri in a meaningful way. And, you know, nothing as officially yet about Young Avengers, but that just is like it's inevitable, right? It's just a question of when and what the roster ultimately is.

So we will get a lot more time with Ironheart very, very soon. Can we talk about Ross and Val for a minute here? The colonizer returns Everett Ross. A couple things. I love this like ex-wife, ex-husband bickering shit. I love it. I'd watch a whole TV show about it. Yeah, same.

It does not belong in this movie. Yeah, I feel exactly. Exactly. Proposterous. If Everett Ross wants to show up in that one like running scene where he gives a Coyer and surey information and they go from there. Can I just interrupt to say that Okoy is saying, why would I have your number? It was like the funniest thing I'd ever.

Great. That's about as much Everett Ross as I needed it. And I love Everett Ross. And I love Martin Freeman. Always a delight. And if he wanted to like go to Wakanda and be actively involved in the main plot again like he was in the first movie, like sure. But the way that it works in this movie, which again feels like a handoff to like

three different upcoming projects felt so unnecessary for the story we're trying to tell here. So I didn't mind it as much with Ross just because he connects to the Black Panther storyline in Captain America Savor. And then he's obviously in the first Black Panther movie. This actually is his slice of the canon. This is where he appears. But the Val stuff. and then most many of his scenes from there are with Val. So it is,

it ultimately becomes like, I guess one and the same. Contessa Valentino, Allegra de Fontaine, an icon. Like, it's amazing still that Julia Louis Dreyfus is in the MCU.

We learn a couple really big things here. The fact that these two were married is not something we knew before. Real twist. When she said, again, what she says, like maybe I'll come over and ride your Peloton.

It's like, yes, let's spend some time in that universe. It's just that universe isn't this universe. The fact that she's the director of the CIA too, Joe, like, that's big new information that has a real bearing on where we go from here. I am really encouraged to know that purple hair is accepted as the CIA director situation. No, she's really fun and funny. It's just like, again, it feels like a different, it feels like they're trying to, you know, pitch us towards thunderbolts in a way that I'm like.

And friend of the pod, my child by content co-host, Dave Gonzalez, like, you know, it's fascinating that her last name was once Ross, right, at this point now. And Dave was like, I wonder if she was a real, like, you know, Thunderbolt in the, you know, if there's a way in which she is, I know they just cast Harrison Ford as Thunderbolt Ross, but, like, if there's a way in which, like, she slides into that Thunderbolt Ross category, because I don't know how many MCU films Harrison Ford wants to make. How will I make it through the Harrison Ford era of the MCU?

I just don't know. That's a story for another pod. Thoughts and prayers for you. Your two calendars are the deep and Harrison Ford, right? It's just Harrison Ford and Witness and the deep. Exactly. It's just Harrison Ford looking over the roof of a car and witness. and Costner Ford and

Costner ironing in Bull Durham. Yeah. You know, the the moment where there's the conversation can you imagine like if we were the only country that had Vibranium

and Val says, I actually dream of it. Again, like we do need that idea in the movie, but in these scenes, as delightful as these performers are, it's hard not to feel like it is just pure

thunderbolts. set up. Shout out, though, Richard Schiff. Yeah. Toby Ziegler, new Secretary of State. Richard Schiff, I'm like, Richard Schiff's in this movie for like 45 seconds. Can't wait to see what 10 movies he's in after this. I know, he's going to be in so many movies.

I'm really excited for that. But Steve over the weekend texted me that, Steve Oman, texted me that God of Wars, like Steve Rogers. From the moon? From the moon. God of War is the video game that everyone's playing right now, right? And so apparently Richard Schiff has like a mocap role, like a major role in God of War and a mocap role.

And so he like sent me, I can't believe they got Richard Schiff and the gray mocap jim jams for God of War. But welcome to the Schiff era. Here he is. He's in your video games, it's in your mom. Well, so on that front show, like, looking ahead, we've hit naturally. in the process of discussing this movie, a lot of the future properties that connect to something we saw here.

The Wakanda TV show, the Ironheart TV show, the Armours War movie, Secret Evasion, which Everett Ross is in. The Thunderbolts movie, which obviously Val is Central 2, Captain American New World Order,

Secret Wars, Young Avengers, the mutants mentioned, the question of when we will see Nemor. Are there any of those you want to spend any more time on or speculate about, based on what we saw here? Fantastic for 2025. NAMOR comes to wreck a family, wreck a home.

I can't wait. I just can't wait. I can't wait. I was already excited for the Fantastic Four, but now that we have Namor, it's just, oh, my God. I mean, just to be clear, I love Martin Freeman and I love Julia Zy Dreyfus. I'm glad they're here. Yeah, they're delightful. And if they want to bicker their way through other shows, I'm really excited for that.

It just felt really weird here. Do you think we will see them bickering in Secret. Invasion in the Thunderbolt's movie? Where will we, where will we see them talking about riding Pelotons next? She better be in Secret Invasion. Absolutely. Spring 2023. Bring it. I can't wait. Should we do some Easter egg hunt in here? Yeah. Heart-shaped eggs, Joe. We've mentioned many. You want to call out one or two of your favorites that we haven't talked about yet? It's obvious, like, it's obviously the completely context-free, baffling to-neutral. non-comics fans.

Imperious Rex. It's got to be it. It was amazing, though. I was like, yeah, they're like, let's just put this in here. It won't make sense to most people, but we have to have it. I love it. I love a signature comics catchphrase making its way into our screens. Great stuff.

Also, the increased use of Greo, I thought Trevor Noah was just really fun as Greo. It was like a real Paul Bettney-esque appearance in this. in this movie. And yeah. Well, on that front, Joe, I was concerned when Ramonda mentioned, you know, AI taken over and Sherry said, no, that's, this isn't a movie

that's not going to happen with Creo. And like, we just watched Ultron return to the story in what if. Never trust an AI. Sorry, Rio. Oh. It's get troubling. So are you like, are you like Trevor Noah have my eye on you?

No, I just think in general, any time a character is like, my AI isn't an AI you have to worry about. I'm like, oh no, isn't it? We're learning no lessons anyway. Yeah, Imperious Rex is it's got to be the number one pick here. I will call out as well, though, the CNN, Chiron. Sure. Scott Lang, all of the media that Scott, is generating

heading into quantum mania. Of course the podcast, which we already spent time on during this Marvel, but the memoir. Look out for the little guy.

Just absolutely hilarious to see that here. All I say about this. Yeah. Is it the Falcon could learn some lessons from Ant Man's hustle

here, right? If the vendors aren't paying you, you need to monetize, monetize, monetize. Scott,

Scott Lang is, is always out there looking to, Scott Lake should teach a seminar, how to monetize your superhero career. And yet,

is it working? Because in the Ant Man of the West Quantum Media trailer, the guy's like, thanks Spider-Man. So he still needs to get some brand awareness

out there. Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. There was another thing on the, the Chiron that was a little tougher to make out,

but it was about like a new, a treaty with new Asgard. Ritsen signing a true, president signing a treaty with Asgard. So interesting there. And I just

I'll, I have to call out the movie references that Rere made. We got Princess Leia, Bell from Beauty and the Peace, Marion Ravenwood from indie, like the full Peter Parker here, just mentioning all of these

movies. That was the great one where she's like, no, no, no, no, no. When they give you a dress, it's always bad. That's a great moment. I've seen all of the movies. That was really fun. Stuff. Okay.

Joe, it's time to scan not for vibranium before our old friend The Secret Scroll Amazing, sorry Steve is not here with us today But he Carlos is crushing it but Steve did leave us that gift

Wow wonderful Joe, who's your pick? It's Richard Schiff, the new Secretary of State Okay, good one Absolutely Mine's Val. Val, sure. Same idea, though, right?

Like somebody in a position of power inside of the U.S. government. U.S. government. Yeah. I think the reason I'm going with Val is, like, knowing that Everett Ross is in secret invasion. Establishing a connection between Ross and Val heading into secret invasion makes me very suspicious. Is it weird that, like, if Val is running Thunderbolts, is it, is it weird that she's like part of the CIA or real organization as opposed to something like Shield, et cetera? yes yes I love the look on your face when you're about to agree with me

but you have nothing like articulate saying you're just sort of like yes it is I have a lot of questions about the Thunderbolts though there are I mean you know Val and Bucky there's so many reasons why I wish you had been at D23 but the main one is I like I wish you had been sitting next to me when Bucky was revealed on the Thunderbolts poster.

And I like, and Fan and Charles are like, whatever. And I just wish I had had your like hand to hold and squeeze. I've never once responded to seeing Bucky Barnes by saying whatever, I assure you. I mean. I mean. Yeah. And I mean, like to go back to the name war front, it's a little different because Bucky was brainwash at the time. But like, you know, I guess if I can forgive Bucky for killing Tony Stark's parents,

which I don't know if you knew that. he killed Tony Stark's parents the side of a rose somewhere. I guess I can forgive me more for killing. So was I. So was I. A little bit of green in your eye.

Oh my God. Civil War rewatch when. In the time. Joe? Yeah. Anything else? Anything else about Phase 5 of the MCU?

Anything else about Wakanda forever? Anything else about five? anything at all that you'd like to say before we wrap. I think I've said enough about thighs. Thank you very much. I think that I mean, no, that's not true.

I cannot neglect Winston Duke when I'm talking about thick thighs. So just like respect to the Oji. Thick Thigh King. But I think that as an end to a phase Yeah. Which, you know, you and I have already talked about the fact that this is like sort of moved

into being the end of the phase? Very recently. Yeah. I don't know. I think it has that sort of emotional transition message to it, which makes it a smart conclusion, pivot to something new. But again, I would just encourage that Marvel, not that they're listening to me, but not that I should run in a movie studio, I shouldn't. But, you know, the mandate for more and more and more and more content is coming from came from Bob Eiger, now Bob Cheapack, right? Like, it's coming from Disney.

Disney's like, we got to win the streaming wars. We got to have flood Disney Plus with content. You know, and Kevin Feige becomes the parliament, the larger Marvel, like organization overseeing everything. Like, as they keep all these plate spinning, I'm just like, like, I'm just. imagining a world in which we get this Wakanda forever film and it is just a more concentrated focused on this one really emotionally impactful story that they want to tell version. And I would be over the moon with it. As it is, I have such highs and, and again, had such a good time watching it.

But like, I worry is the, you know, because we have, I think we had this issue a bit with Dr. Strange and with Spidey. You know, it's like none of these movies are like shorter than two and a half hours, it feels like. And there's just a lot that they're trying to do all the time. Who are we to talk about a runtime, though? Okay, you know what? You make good points.

And I hear you. Oh, boy. And I acknowledge it. Joe, if we ever made a movie, how long would it be like 19 hours? It would be an old 24-hour season. of TV and we'd be like, here's our movie. It's a season of television from the network TV days.

Is that in real time? Valerie Joanna, give you. Wow. Great point. My hypocrisy has been revealed to me and Wakanda Forever. Anything you want to say about Wakanda Forever before we go.

I think we covered it. I can't wait to be back with these characters. I thought that the, again, the quiet conversation. and the examination of grief was a really, like, beautiful and powerful, powerful thing. And I don't know when the next thing that we'll be talking about in Marvel is. We've got... We know that Ant Man's coming in February.

We don't yet have dates. We know that what if season two and Secret Invasion are early next year. We don't know exactly when. So we have a lot of dates that'll be coming soon for impending Marvel projects. Obviously, we're going to get a little Guardian's holiday special soon. So, I mean, we're not too far away from, you know, Secret Scroll has been a recurring bit here on the pod. We're not too far away from the bit becoming central canon, Joe. We just go back and write down all of our biz and see if any of them are correct.

Oh, wow. I think I'm feeling best about Richard Schiff right now, honestly. It's definitely possible. that like the only ones that are right are the ones from from this pod today. It's definitely possible. All right. We are not in the habit of repeating ourselves.

That's a wrap on today's podcast. Thank you to our resident geniuses. Carlos Churaboga for producing this episode, Steve Allman, for his sound design. Secret great stuff, Steve. Arjuna Ramgapal, for his additional production work on this episode and Jomi Adonon, for his work on the social for this episode.

Remember, catch up on all of the Wakanda Forever coverage from across the network. And remember to send us your emails at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. We will see you again on Friday for the Penn Ultimate Andor Deep Dive, the Midnight Boys. Poo, peo, be with you tomorrow, Wednesday for their instant reaction to Andor episode 11. Until then, remember, only the most broken. people. It can be great podcasters. Feels like every product claims real

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