The Ringer-Verse - Daredevil: Born Again: 12 Important Questions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

The Boys are back to talk about all things Daredevil before Daredevil: Born Again comes out on Disney+ (12:17). They then discuss rumors of Lucasfilm’s president stepping down this year (1:32:30). Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Producers: Aleya Zenieris, Jonathan Kermah, and Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is course, the Ringer's Nexus podcast. Feed for All Things. Fandom, we are Steve, the architect almond, the builder and tigger of things. Jomi, the explainer or dinner on. You've got questions. He's got answers. Old Man, Van. He of the resurgent hair line.

Can't even say receding anymore because I got news, guys. What's up? The hair is starting to grow in. It's so crazy. Can we get a check? Is the hat off today? No, because it looks kind of crazy. Okay.

Just seeing the hair growl, I feel like I'm 13. I'm not going to lie. My barber just said he's just like, you know what? Turkeys are loud. They're the male BBL. And I was just like, you know what? They are. It's facts.

And co-baby Chuck, the 24-carried closer. Together, we all known as I'm at midnight, boys. We got the collective in the back. Alea, S.O.B. Zanaris, Arjuna, Ramga, pal. Jonathan, Kerm. Kerm. You there? What's up?

Okay, so I talked to the W.W.E. guy. Uh-huh. All right. So it looks like Liv can come in April. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's late.

It's definitely lit. Now, here's the thing. We got to talk about this at the top of the show. Nothing's confirmed. Okay. Okay. But it looks like

we're going to be able to talk to live. All right. Now, I will tell you how the negotiations have been going. Negotiations. We could talk to her on Zoom at any time. Uh-huh. It's not what I want to do.

Of course not. I want her in. the room. Now, Jomey. Me? This is very important. Kerm, you're going to have to join us for this interview, by the way. I can't definitely do that.

Yeah, I bet you can't. Well, this is the first time I've heard Kerm excited about shit. Yeah. If forever. She's a very talented wrestler, Chuck. What do you expect? Very talented wrestler. She's also currently, I think, the raw women's tacting champion.

Okay? So it's a big deal. There's a very specific thrust to this interview. Interesting word choice. That this interview is going to have. Okay. This is... Tell us more about this thrust.

We're going to talk, obviously, about WrestleMania, obviously about her career, but this is a milk meeting. A milk meeting of the minds. A milk meeting of the minds. So we are going to have her talk to you about your endeavors with Whitewater. It's going to be great.

Now, is she aware that this is going to be taking place on the agenda? I'm pretty sure. she'll be game. She's a very fun lady. Great. We're going to talk all about W.W.E. This is going into mania. We don't typically cover this type of stuff but the midnight boys are branching out.

Yeah. We're branching out. You guys, we're giving you the goddamn content that you deserve. Get that right, Chuck. Yeah. I guess so. Also socials, instant Twitter, Facebook and Donald Trump stick top. Donald Trump should talk tough. Oh, yeah, continue

to follow. Look, if you stick around, you follow in April we're going to be talking to the lift. It's going to be great. A lot of milk content coming. Yeah, you like it. Oh, oh, a lot of milk content. I was just in the,

over in the coffee area. If you guys don't know, we have a coffee area here. It's a barista bar. There you go. See, a barista bar. I'm going to be knowing what shit is called. It's a barista barista bar. I work here.

You know what things are called. I don't know stuff. And they got, first of all, shout out to them, because they're up in their game over there. They now have breakfast burritos, breakfast sandwich, all that stuff. They got cookies, muffins, all of the stuff that an office uses to keep you fat and chain you to the office. But I'll talk about that. Honestly, they don't want to work on me.

I take my breakfast burrito go home. There you go. But you know what I heard when I was in there? Selina. Biddi Bamba. Oh. What a delight in the morning. Selena's amazing.

I love it. That's some good horchata. All right. You know what I mean? He's still there. Yeah, rest and peace. Love her. We're on YouTube.

Like, comment, subscribe, share. You can watch every Midnight Boys and House of R. On YouTube.com at Ringervverse. Also on Spotify, we really appreciate what you guys have been doing. They've really been turning out for what's going on on the YouTube, Trump. They've been fucking going up. It's great. Midnight mob, midnight riders.

They walked in. You feel like they're more mob or riders now? Riders, I think. I think probably more riders. I feel like the riders have almost... taking the mob out. Interesting. Yeah.

What was the like apex moment? Well, I don't know. I've set this off, the Civil War. I feel like they're still mob because there's definitely still mob. Because when we were like, man, Captain America, it might not be like that. Ah, they was.

Oh, that's where the mob lies. I appreciated that. I much like I didn't appreciate it. People have to, people don't have to agree with this. Of course not. I liked that people liked the movie. You know, here's the thing, here's the thing, too. This is a very vocal minority.

motherfuckers like, oh my God, I can't believe you hated it. I'm just like, bro, that movie's bricking. Like, I... It's not really bricking as much as it doesn't break. I mean, we're being real. There have been worse bricks. The movie is... I've been worse bricks.

You're right. There have been worse bricks. But if the movie is as good as everybody was saying it is... You know? The proof would be in the pudding. You know what I mean? Look. We in quantum-a-manyam realm right now in more ways...

It's better. Still better than that. It's better than that. The guy from deadline... said, I'm going to call this a hold. Now, he might have been on the payroll of my... We don't know. I'm going to call this a whole.

Mr. Mouse, because... Do you know why they framed it that way in the article if I'm being serious? It's because for some reason, and I don't know, maybe we can talk about this. Maybe people want Marvel more than people than the industry expected them to. For the quality of the movie

for what the critics thought. There are just a lot of people around town that thought that the movie should have been more of a disaster than it is. And that might have to do with maybe people misjudging the appetites that people still have for the MCU or simply people liked the movie

a little bit more than we thought they did as Black History Month. Maybe a lot of brothers went out to see the movie. But I don't know. I think there are a lot of people that are kind of like, oh, well, this, we thought that this would be, like a real, real, real sore thumb for Marvel. And while it's certainly not a return to form,

it's just not going as bad as some people thought that it was going to go. It's a fascinating moment because we would have thought that this would have been something that's like, okay, pass or fail. But there's genuinely a middle ground where people can really, really fuck with this movie and still not really see it in other box office

for critical acclaim. It's like, you know, R.C.B. A lot of bail being shot right now. I'm just saying this. So I'm telling you, I'm just telling you what's happening. The people like it. I'm just telling. I'm not saying that the people like it.

No, like that. I'm just saying that I've just heard a lot from a lot of people that were like, oh, man, you guys that much. And then when you look at the returns, the drop off was precipitous. We're talking to 68%. Sure. But it wasn't as bad as some other films, which you would have thought it would have been. And it was.

It was between a 68% drop off in 70 to be. It's a lot of money. It's a lot. It's a lot. But look. Also, also, motherfuckers like, it only costs 180. And I'm just like, y'all,

it only costs 180. Come on. Come on, bro. Come on. I'm just saying. All right. Okay. Programmer my head.

That's a good one. This week, the Ring of Vers feed on the Ring of VoodMash gives you their franchise speed in the episode. Now, what the fuck is that? Absolutely no idea. But it's exciting. Why do you always do that? Mawuckers could do the same thing when we do in our pocket.

They like, why are the Midnight Boys? doing their most racist draft of da-da-da-da-da-da-da-th. Like, you know, we, we, it could be fun. I'm not saying that it wasn't, all I said, I don't know what it is.

You say that for every single, every single one. You're like, what the fuck is this? Because y'all know what these things are. Now, if it was a mid-edition, then it would be like, what was that? Oh, no. I'm just, I'm defending by, like,

let them cook. There's no defending. Let me tell you something. I'll tell you something. This is helping button mash. This is because, let me tell you why. When I say, Buttonmash gives you their franchise speed dating episode.

There's a bunch of people listening to this that are going, what the fuck is that? I want to know. I want to know. Then when I say that, Steve goes, oh my God, this is when they do this, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then people are into it. Okay. All right. So I didn't know. And so I'm acting as the audience. That's what happens. I'm going to teach you kids something. A new episode of Riggerverse recommends as well.

Now, that I know what it is. Uh-huh. That's fantastic. That's what... Nah, Ben, Ben, be kicking us in our eye. He's like, nope. Old shit. Give us that new nerd shit.

I'm like, tell you something. Ben is getting a little high off the heart. Guys. Guys. Ben is, Ben is becoming, like,

Ben is, like, really. He's pressuring, like, sitting that fucking chair and recommend some shit. Ben is, like, a Crip. Like, Ben is like, you roll it up all you.

Like, you got your recommends? Hey, hey, what's up with you, homie? What recommendation? You got your recommends, my nigger?

You got your recommends, my nigga? What's good with you? What's good with you, homie? I've heard of saying those work for a bar. You better recommend some shit like that. Oh, we're going to press you on the set, baby. 60 crib. What if Ben got put on 60 cribs?

Oh, it would be the greatest in my life. He can be bad if he's a crib. You got to be Ken, you know what I mean? Ken. He'll be Ken. Ken. He's Ken. Ben Lindberg, Lynnberg, the Loak.

He couldn't be beat. I thought, yeah. He could be beat. So maybe he wouldn't be put on crypt then. Maybe he would be put on like, I don't know, tree top. Cutting mash. Cut mash. Cut mash.

Cut mash. Cut mash. I'm not throwing anything up right now. Definitely not. Yo, being as a crypt is funny. I'm sorry, friend. Ben, A-Tray. A-Tray, 60.

being East Coast Crip Ben pick a set When you come out here I'm gonna have Grape Street And watch what you're on I think Ben can get a put on I'm gonna call somebody I'm gonna call somebody right now

I know niggas that'll put Ben on I think that should be our March episode Hold on See if we could get Hold on that's it Hold on for a second You're gonna do a vlog A vlog

We don't know. We're going to do a blog. When we take Ben to the hood. Oh, yes. Great. And we have Ben do a ringerverse recommends from the set. Yeah. I can make a couple calls.

They will love it. The dog. Yeah. They will love it. Cut and mash. Cutting, man. I need him to cripple. On the house of Rfeet, Yellow Jackets, and Daredevil.

Who Ben can't fuck with now because Daredevil all flamed up. You're wearing red. Covers will be in full swing. About today's show. We're giving you our 12 questions to midnight surrounding Daredevil. Spoiler warning for Daredevil, everything that was covered in the Netflix Daredevil show and everything that Daredevil has ever done, including The Trial of the Incredible Hulk, which I don't know if you guys saw.

No. Just Daredevil from the 80s. It's fantastic. Okay, whatever. Fuck you guys. Running right now. We're getting ready to talk about Daredevil. Born again.

You're listening. to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. Now Daredevil Born Again is coming out on Disney Plus. Yes. A lot writing on this moment. Feels like it. Why do you feel like that, Chuck?

I think that this, when they were doing the experiment, obviously, I think they had the heroes that we loved. Yeah. In the beginning, whether that was Loki, uh, Bucky and, um, Falcons. You're talking about specifically on Disney Plus. Disney Plus, Wanda Vision. Yeah.

And then I think that they started to make a gambit that like we could do in the movies, we could do in the TV shows what we did in the movies, which is essentially make you fall in love with characters that you might not know that much about. And I think that has been mostly a failure. And I think Daredevil, in my mind, is the biggest character that they've had on Disney Plus. That's not named Loki. So I think for them to land this plane and to show that, like, hey, our marquee character who had a successful show on another platform,

we can do it again. I think that this is a big moment. And I think the other thing that's big about this, if you think about it, is I think a lot of Daredevil's early success and the Defender's success was because it was on Netflix. And I'm wondering if Disney can get those people, those Netflix hive, like I'll watch anything on Netflix, to come over to Disney Plus and kind of continue the adventures of these characters.

That's very interesting. Okay. I think that you're right. I think that you're a right on all accounts. I do think that the Netflix hive that's specifically for Daredevil is probably waiting for this. It's the casual Netflix fan that I'm not so sure is going to watch this. If you weren't with like Kalika, let's say Kalika was just everything was still the same. She's a hyper locked in Daredevil. Dan, she's watched this.

If you weren't in the picture, do you think that she would make the jump? She would have known that Daredevil is coming back. She would be excited for it? Or would it be something like, because it's not on Netflix? Like, wait, Daredevil, wait, like, where is it? She's the wrong example to use. Okay.

She's rewatched the entire series five to six times. And I'm not bullshitting. Wow. She calls him Darebear. Darebear is great. Darebear is so cute. She calls her Darebear. She's like, I'm going to watch Darebear tonight.

She'll be laying, because I snore. So she has the earmuffs on, like her iPod Maxes, so that she can sleep. And she goes to sleep with Daredevil. Also, this is insane because Daredevil's so fucking violent. And, like, especially those first seasons, get so fucking dark. It does. It's really good. You know, so she's that this is her comfort.

Just like, yeah, I'm watching like Daredevil just crack motherfuck of skulls. It's odd, right? But then, like, at the same time, I can't watch Goodfellas. It's weird. You can't watch Goodfellas. It's too violent. Oh, she can't. But Daredevil's, okay.

There's that one episode of the first season of Daredevil where his motherfucker gets stabbed a hundred and six times. Remember that? Oh, yeah. That is a very hard episode of television to watch. Good episode. I just can't watch.

It's so, but then that, but another thing about that show, him getting all fucked up then creates the need for him to go to Gladiator and get the suit where people can't stab him up. Yeah. Good writing. I'm more so,

my biggest what if here is like is Disney really going to try to recreate that level of like violent darkness that Netflix had? Like is that an interesting branding exercise knowing that they're

just the shiny poppy I don't think they're going to try though I don't know if you've seen the trailers but he's like jumping on people's knees these are the questions we're about to ask that's actually one that I have Steve and answer in 12 questions

to midnight Chuck takes away. All right so four of us, three questions each. I'll lead us off before we get into basically like the meat of the show. All right. Oh, daddy. Something we were talking about in the ringerverse chat. Does Disney marketing kind of need to abandon the earlier review?

Because variety, they came out with an article where it said, quote, Daredevil Born Again draws glowing first reactions with some praising the opener as, quote, best pilot of any MCU series thus far. In my past life, I worked on articles like that. I get you need the like splashy headline and did it do all of this. There isn't that, I'm leading with that first question is when you look at the people, nothing against the people who got early access to review some of this stuff, generally speaking, it's not like reviewers from like the New York Times or Rolling Stone

or this or that or whatever, Vulture, whatever it is. It's very online fan-focused contributors, reviewers, whatever. And I want to ask you guys, sometimes does that do a disservice to a lot of this stuff? Because we get the high of basically like people being like, this is the best MCU, D.C. Star Wars shit that's ever happened. Then we get the real reviews that come out, that being like, this is the apocalypse, this is the worst thing ever. And then somewhere in the middle, you kind of get the real reaction where people were just like,

That was fine. And sometimes I do feel like this, we were talking about it last episode. Like, does that do a disservice to the show where it's like even before anybody can make their decisions, we're dealing with two, three different fucking opinions on this shit? I mean, you take the free ads. You know what I mean?

I don't see why Disney would not do that. I think there is a level, I don't want to say Payola because that's crazy. It is a level of. But there is some, There's some glazing. There's always going to be some blazing. But does it even work anymore?

I understand what in the beginning of this, when the MCU was popping and Twitter was actually Twitter and social media where this stuff, I was like, this is a smart marketing move. This can work. I remember when this stuff was born. And in 2025 now, I'm just like, a lot of times I just feel like it's static and it almost adds, it's crazy for me to say that, like adds to the negativity because it's like there's the backlash to the positivity. then there's a backlash to the negativity and then there's just backlash, backlash, backlash, and we don't end up talking about the show. Yeah, man, that's just a cycle of how these things work now.

You know, something comes out, we go, wow, this is really cool or this was really bad. You wait six months and people say, actually, this wasn't this bad, this wasn't this good, and we just do that over and over again in perpetuity until we're all dead in the ground, right? I think for these MCU stuff in particular, we talked about it, we just talked about Cap, Cap,

for a minute. When the movie first dropped and people were seeing like the first reviews, it was all good. Everybody was like, oh, man, this is really cool. Back to the time. People went into the theater, right, made their own decisions, and then we saw what happened in the second week. Cap four tested really bad. No, no, but the glowing reviews that were coming out, the first people who were seeing it. Remember, we were in the group text like, we see the movie, right?

What, Tuesday? Yeah. We'd seen some text. We were like, yo, what are people talking about? The gas was crazy. That's what this is. People get hype. People get excited.

They send people to Disney posts, send people to the theater. They watch it. They make their own decisions. Sometimes it doesn't match the vibe. At this point, it almost never matches the vibe. At this point, yeah, but if you're, I'm not,

I would never be like, actually, let's not let people get excited. You want, you want this, right? I can see where you're coming from. It's like, yeah, people want the stuff to be good. They're going to go watch it. They're going to go see it. They're going to get excited.

They're going to rally people around. I don't know why that's a problem for Disney is my thing. I couldn't think of when the early review or the hype around that kind of matters less because this is a show that literally everybody has kind of been clamoring for since Disney got the rights back from Netflix, or I should say from Netflix, not back. But I think that anything that critically is going to come from this as far as people, like on our side, is concerned.

It's all about what the fans want. And this is a fan favorite that actually means something. thing to kind of the legacy of how the MCU is going to go forward as far as like mustering goodwill about emulating a thing that was beloved before Disney came along and now they can try to recreate it and give you the exact same flavor. It seems like that's what they're going to be trying to do. Obviously, it's untested yet. But I don't think that that's going to really sway any fans because I honestly don't think the original Daredevil was just a fan favorite. That's actually what worries me. When the original Daredevil came out

and even Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, it was received by just regular TV critics and regular people is like, they were reviewing this like, oh, this is a good TV show. And I think what has happened with Disney Plus and the MCU is like, with each show that they release, it's

become more and more for the Marvel diehards. And I think Daredevil is a good test case scenario. And like, no, originally in its original incarnation, this was kind of a show for everyone. This was a quadrant for like everybody's watching it. It wasn't a four quadrant

because it's incredibly violent. Well, not, but you gotta get what I mean in terms of just like, people who don't give a fuck about comic book shows were like, I'm locked in,

this is something different, this is something I really want to love. It wasn't just for the super MCU diehard thing. That's true. I will say this. So the first thing is you're never going to stop a studio

from having people say positive things about their product. So that's just a part of it, If they can find somebody to say something positive about the product, they're going to find that person. They're going to highlight the person saying something positive about a product. It's like a draft pick. It's like a food.

It's like anything like that. All right. Secondly, the original Daredevil on Netflix was part of the MCU. Yes. Right? So there was Netflix and Marvel television taking advantage of the overall popularity of the MCU. Now, it was loosely part of the MCU.

Oh, the incident. The incident. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they certainly were taking advantage of the MCU's cultural popularity in making these shows and marketing these shows. Netflix has something going on that no other streamer has. Netflix is the one streamer that informs you on what to watch better than anybody else. Yeah.

Like, you're watching Netflix, all of a sudden something starts, and then you watch it. Netflix has, the shows have a specific virility that really a lot of the other streamers haven't really been able to crack. Now, I will say this. As much as we've talked about Apple Plus, Severance is breaking Apple through a little bit, even more so to me than Ted Lasso. There's a cultural conversation happening around Severance. that really hasn't happened around very many Apple Plus shows. And I think you're slowly starting to see maybe some of the other streamers get close to what Netflix is able to reproduce

in terms of having the conversation around the show, like extend off of their platform. Daredevil definitely had that. But it wasn't not because of the MC. No, no, it was in tandem. They were both working. And I'm wondering if it's felt like a long time for me, And this isn't just like Marvel.

It's about like a long time for me where like anything in our space has seemed large enough where everyone's talking about it. Like I remember when Daredevil was like first popping and we're probably never going to get that feeling again where it was like, no, everyone was talking about it. It was like, yo, did you see the fucking hallway fight?

Also, that was the thing like Netflix was the big streamer only around. But Netflix, I still, there's still Netflix TV shows and movies where it's just like, hey, yo, did you watch this? And it's interesting to see if that happens. Exactly. And it was kind of being that early and that on the beating pulse of what cultural TV moments could be in a streaming economy then. Because you had the height of the height of Marvel popularity along with Netflix, kind of making the name for itself as a streaming giant and making a great compelling story on TV.

Like it was a perfect storm to just like elevate that show into something that when we bring it forward in 2025 under a new banner, it has have a lot to live up to. And it is possible. Disney Plus has done it before. We had Mandalorian, we had Wanda Vision. There are moments where it felt like those TV shows did pop off, but I think it's notable that those are the first two entries in Star Wars and Marvel. Which brings me to my first question, which is less about the show and more about Daredevil himself.

Daredevil is to me like the big Sean of superheroes. Please explain. Okay. Say what I mean. Oh, boy. He is dope. Legitimately dope. People love him.

However, has had problems cracking the elite lineup of the superhero, right? If you're talking about a big three in hip hop, it was always cold. Drake, and then Kedric Lamar. There are times in the past 10 or 15 years where Big Sean was hovering around that type of relevance, and he needed either one really, really popular crazy album or one really critically acclaimed album to get to that next level, right? Daredevil has pretty much been that. Daredevil has existed in movies before. We've seen the Ben Affleck movie.

Daredevil has existed in television shows. We know Daredevil. This, though, this particular iteration of Daredevil is going to really test whether or not this character has what it takes to become part of the elite group of Marvel heroes, which Marvel was able to do with Iron Man, Marvel was able to do with Thor, Marvel was able to do with Captain America. I would even say that Marvel was able to take Black Widow with all the success of the MCU and put Black Widow into Black Widow, I would say right now, I would say right now that Black Widow is probably a more popular comic book character than Wonder Woman is.

That no, no way. I think that says more about D.C. Yeah. There's nothing to do with D.C. What? I think, I think they're, I think she is. If we take how much Wonder Woman. movies have made, the TV show, the merchandise, the comic books.

Telling you right now, okay, Wonder Woman's movie, way bigger than Black Widow's movie. Granted, Black Widow movie, all types of things wrong with it. She already did. We watched her die. The movie didn't have very mistakes. Comes out on Disney Plus. During the pandemic. During the pandemic.

What I'm saying, though, is the MCU got to be such a big deal. That take out of context, whatever. Maybe I'm wrong. but the MCU was able to take their smaller characters. Dr. Strange made Dr. Strange a frontliner do all this. Can they do it with Daredevil? Well, so you keep, I mean, you mentioned Iron Man, you mentioned Thor, you mentioned Dr. Strange. These are all characters who had like movies.

Yeah. Right? I think the, I don't know. Well, Daredevil had a movie as well. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you can say what you want about the movie. I like a lot of movies back then.

I fuck with. Way over hated. But what I say Fantastic 4, 2005, not that bad. Whoa, the Daredevil Ben Affleck movie is way better than the fucking fantastic. Smoking crack. What? It's the same shit, bro.

Anyway, go ahead. My thing is, like, when you put characters in movies, it just seems bigger. It feels bigger. Very true. Right. So having, trying to, like, if you're trying to scale it to TV, I can understand.

But trying to go one to one, One Can One Cop is tough. Not, I get that. But what I'm saying is for this show, I'm looking to see if, because this is not the end of Daredevil. This is the beginning of Daredevil's journey in the MCU. I'm looking to see them break this character

in a way that the character hasn't been broken before, even on Netflix. I'm looking to see kids want to be Daredevil. I'm looking to see for us worrying, not worrying for us wondering, should I say, what's going to happen with Daredevil in a movie? When is Daredevil going to show up in Secret Wars? When is Daredevil going to?

There's another question in there too about another issue that Marvel has. But I'm looking to see them make Daredevil a bigger thing. Your point about the movies is well taken. That's a very good point. Can I ask this? Because I do think that something interesting happened around the time of, like, Tim Burton taken over Batman, where it was like, Batman as a character has always been popular

and is now the most popular combo character. But Tim Burton, I think, did something where it's like, oh, anuteur can go and direct these movies and can get them over that home. And I think for Daredevil, Daredevil has never had a Burton or a Nolan or a Reeves. Someone who, like, we in comics know that, like, I think, I would put Daredevil comics.

He just runs like Frank Miller, Bendis, Brubaker, up against any superhero. I think Daredevil has more great comics in Spider-Man, if I'm going to be honest. But I don't think he's ever had a movie or a TV show that has reached the artistic and aesthetic levels that would get him to be that type of thing. It's also a level of accessibility,

both as far as the character's scope and how you can portray it while still being true to what we know him to be. Like, keeping him an M-rated, like, hyper-violent, street-level bruiser character from the streets of New York and then elevating him to something

like an Avengers-level threat. That's a pretty big level of dissonance between like him fighting aliens for the greater cause of Earth and then beating up like... Wanting criminals that are trying to run for mayor and like turning New York into like a hotbed for drugs. Once again, I'm not necessarily...

I get that. First of all, I don't believe that it can't happen. No, no. I'm not saying that it can't happen. Right, right. That's the first thing. Secondly, I guess what I'm saying is the, if we're believing that this character now is going to be the linchpin of Marvel television, which it seems likely that he is, right?

We don't know if we're getting another season of Moon Night on TV. Well, they said they weren't. They said they weren't. But they did say that he is a part of something else. Right. We don't know what the future of Marvel television is. The future of Marvel television going forward, could literally just be Daredevil and a couple of other shows that orient around Daredevil.

We're getting a Punisher special presentation as well. All of that. It could be that thing. So what I'm saying is this show has to, in my opinion, kick that out for just a little bit. As far as Daredevil. Remember, this is Disney Plus content as well. Marvel's been able to do it in the past. They haven't done it as well lately.

I understand everything that you guys have said, all of the. I take all of those points and all those are great points. I'm just saying that I want to see the character front-lined and get to the next step in its evolution a little bit. That's a question I would have. I think it's entirely possible. I think we reintroducing this character, we should walk before we should run.

And that's what I'm saying to the MCU, not to anybody here. No, I mean, speaking to which, my first question, we're talking about, you know, will this show challenge the audience? will this show challenge daredevil will it challenge matthewrude part of the the thing i liked about the original series was that he was always up against it uh obviously talking about um kingpin but one of the i want to say like most important or one of the scenes that really flashed when it came out was the scene with him and punisher on the rooftop right you take that from the

comics and he put it on the on the show and it's like he has to decide like who he wants to be what kind of hero that he wants to be this he want to be a hero who's kind of constantly putting the same people in jail or doesn't want to be the hero who is, who gets the job done, right? And will the show in its new iteration continue to challenge Matt and have him face the demons that he's, you know, been fighting for all these years? Will we have to make decisions that he doesn't want to make? Well, I mean, I don't, obviously not going to be easy, but will the show make it so hard on Matt that when that's because, again, that's stuff I enjoyed. When we're watching him, we're like, yo, how's Matt going to get out of this one? Will the show do that?

I'm interested to see if that happens. So the thing that like to your question that I wanted in the original Netflix incarnation, and now that I've seen it in the trailers, I'm getting a little worried, is that I think there's always been that thing about Daredevil's like, when is he going to be able to use his batons and swing from rooftops and do all the acrobatic shit? And now having seen some of that in the trailers, I'll wait to give like my opinion until we see the whole thing. I was like, oh, the thing that actually Netflix,

did amazing to your point is like when Matt got fucked up he was a human when he would have to go to night nurse and you're just like after every fight there was a feeling of like is this man going to be able to walk again? He's got to take like a two or three episode break before he really goes out there again

and then there so there is like I think there's this balance of with the with it being on Disney Plus with it being more closely the line with the MCU can you still give us the brutality and the human element of like This is just a blind man with special abilities in a suit, fighting for Hell's Kitchen,

we're keeping it grounded, when now he's doing two, three backflips, swinging off rooftops like Spider-Man. And I'm just like, I think it is an interesting test case of like, how superhero do you want to push him? And can he still be a on-the-ground-level vigilante? See, that goes into another question that I have. And it's a larger question. But I'll just answer about what you're talking about.

about. That's got to work. If that doesn't work, the show doesn't work. There's not another character, not even Batman. We talked about this before. Whenever Batman talk about my ribs heard, and I'm like, shut up. Okay? You should have had prep time for your ribs.

That's his back almost broke in the Batman. It's fine. When he was like, bop, bop. It's whenever Batman's, I watched John Wick a couple of nights ago. God, that sucks to be John Wick. John Wick fell off. the top of the thing, hit the ground with a thud.

On his back. And walked it off. True G. On his back. You know what I mean? Now, John Wick became a superhero when he had a special cloak of invincibility.

Yeah. Kvlar's sense. That they invented. Okay, get it. That wasn't the first movie, though. But that was the second movie. But like, maybe it was the second or the third. At least by the third.

By the third he had that. But as John Wick moves on, fucking professional. Okay, all right, whatever anime fucking Coquito shit is going on over there Whatever jump I sat on my tile Whatever

We get that you have to suspend disbelief for a little bit I actually Enjoyed watching them flip around a little bit In Sheho Yeah Because I'm I'm kind of like still And this is a big difference between me and Charles

I'm still like a very basic comic book TV watching. Flashing lights, man. Throw me to... Man, I'd be watching Wolverine fight. I'd be like, they could do a car will. Wolverine do a flip. Like, flip over him, Wolverine. Like, I know how you fight.

I've been reading you. It's 1989. Flip over this guy. Cut his head off. Why are you fighting him? Like, you Brock Lesnarvee. Like, flip, Wolverine. Like, run up, do a...

Like, I know you flip. I've seen you do it. I know that you can have to be. Now that I think about it when Wolverine was doing the thing where he was running like a dog and fucking Depple and Wolverine, looking back at him like, like. Yeah. Looked crazy.

I like it. Looked crazy. I appreciated the effort. He looked like a little kid. Give it a shot. Like it. He looked crazy. I appreciate the effort.

So when I saw Daredevil, because the first season of Daredevil, I remember talking to. to Kalika when we were watching it I was like, just let you know, he'd be getting fucked over but not like this. Like he could jump off. I've seen him take the baton and throw it

and he'd really be swinging like Spider-Man. You know what I mean? And by the time they got to that, just to be honest with you, it didn't look right. Nah. By the time they, in the Netflix show, by the time they got to that,

it did look right. To their credit, I think they knew that it was going to look weird. Yeah. So they, like, moved your way from it. I was like you when I originally watched the first show. I was just like, hey, not my daredevil. Daredevil ain't really going out like a bitch like that. Yeah.

But now I appreciate it more because it does give you this feeling. Yeah. Especially in the first season where, like, when he earns the suit, you like, my man, earn this fucking shit. It feels like it's a very, it feels like it really matters. It feels like he became the character. You watch him like a season-long origin story of him getting to the point to where he actually, the last episode, the finale is named Daredevil.

And it's like this entire time he was the demon of Hell's Kitchen or the Devil of Hell's Kitchen and he became Daredevil. And if I'm going to be honest, I think that's actually a problem that the MCU has had where it's like with like Spider-Man, it's like when we're introduced to Spider-Man, he already got the Iron Man shit. And like I think those movies are the progression of showing the opposite. Where it's like if Matt is like, how do I become Daredevil? How do I get the suit? how do I become a hero? Peter, throughout those is like, how do I use less of the suit?

How do I rely more on my abilities, more of my friends, more of my everything? That's what they were going for, yeah. And now I'm like, with this new incarnation that's tied to Netflix, I'm like, are they going to try to do the, we're ramping up Daredevil to be more of a... But they don't have to now, right?

If you watch Daredevil, the Daredevil that was in Sheehawk, to me, say what you want about Sheehawk. I really enjoyed the trail of Daredevil of Daredevil. and she Hulk. I really did. I don't think that that's the portrayal that they're going for in this one. I'm not sure if it will be. I think they pivoted away from that. Yeah, I'm not sure if it will be. There's two different flavors though, because there's a very fun, cheeky daredevil that

exists in comics alike that is welcome, but it's a vast departure, A, from what Disney's doing. And I feel like that might be closer to the thing of the season that they threw away to make this. Right. And I knew that, like, I thought that if that didn't work, they would immediately go back to the Netflix flavor, but there's a part of the part of me that actually is very curious as to what that fun cheeky Matt Murdoch

who like sleeps around in the MCU and is kind of a funny guy, it looks like. Just a chill guy. Yeah. If it was me, the real what if should be like once this show is out of the way, they should be like, all right, he was the actual pilot that we

filmed the first time. You know what? It's like, mustard. I want to see it. It is in the marionage stretch right now. I think it's a Ruff Girl's pilot. You know what I I love what people do when they feel in themselves. Because the original Daredevil that they had, they was feeling themselves. And it was kind of great.

We're going to do, I mean, we don't know. Like, we're going to do a courtroom drama that's a lot about Matt Murdoch and all of that stuff. It's 20 episodes. And we was like, oh, okay. Okay. And then they looked at it. They filmed like, what, six episodes? Yeah, they looked at it and they was like, nah, nah, let's get these people to.

Don't do. You know what it's like? It's literally like, have you ever when like a rapper's really like at their peak? And then they just dropped that first single. And it flops you like, they're like, Brough. Let's get it. Let's give them a street showy like you.

Every rapper does this. So y'all don't, y'all might have been too young. Nelly, you know, despite some political situations, Nelly was the hottest rapper. I don't give a fuck what nobody said. Okay. Hove was hot. M was hot.

All of those guys. Early 2000s. on fucking fire. I mean, we're talking about the third or four, that's like the third or four single off the, like, let me,

when I would down down, down, down, EI, everything was happening. And then, and then you know what Nelly said? Nelly had two hits,

right? Two hits, hot hair came out. Nelly said, fuck it. I'm going to hit him with a double album. Sweat.

Sweat suits. I remember sweatshits. Nellie was like, Nellie was like, I can't do no wrong. Then Nellie came out, he dropped some shit with Christina Aguilera, and we was like, no. We was kind of dropping down to getting our eagle on.

I mean, I wouldn't. But then it was like, and so that first, that idea of Daredevil born again, that's a sweat suit situation. To where it didn't. They literally were trying to give us the double album. They were trying to give us the double album. And then they saw it and it was like,

nah, man, we got Christine Aguilera on this bitch. And they came back and they just went back to what we know and love out of the character. We'll see if it were. Steve, what was your question? Mine was a bit more in the macro, and it's the people that are in Matt Murdoch's orbit. Foggy and, oh my goodness. And Karen, excuse me, were originally not in this show, and now they are. And obviously, I'd like to think that a lot of those characters are going to be brought to the forefront.

And the things that are in his orbit actually make him a great hero. It's kind of what we very much liked about this new Spider-Man show that everybody should check out. But it's kind of going to be the beating heart of the show for me to know that his friends and the people that are close to him are still the things that are important to Matt Murdoch. And I'm curious as to how that can be reinvented knowing that we have three whole arcs of this in Netflix. And it kind of ties into what my main question being if Night Nurse will return. and is Rosario Dawson going to be just as annoyed with everything that's going on

or is this going to be something to believe? There ain't no, I don't think Rosario coming back. You don't think Zario's coming back? They're not about to let Assoca get fucked like that. No? Yeah, like Osoka,

like Night Nurse was giving up the ass. It was, yeah. Those were the times. I love him. Those are the times? Yo, Luke Cage? No, here's the thing. Luke Cage was fucking hit

in everything in sight, right? Like, Night nurse, Luke Cage hit and Daredevil hit, No, yeah, yeah, I get that. She's a liberated, sexually liberated. That's not. That wasn't the question, though. What happened?

You sickling it's so good. And I thought you meant like, y'all, they're not going to put it there for like five minutes, man. They're not going to do Rosario Dawson as Asoka dirty. Okay. You literally meant. Oh, you thought putting Asoka in Daredevil? Yeah.

No, no, no, no. I meant like they're not going to just put Claire out there just to, you know, just be having a second. Assope you can't get her guts rearranged. Yeah. But he literally meant. Yeah. Yeah. What's wrong with that?

I'm not saying there's something wrong with that. I thought he was being, you know, not, I thought he was being figurative. He was being literal. You're taking that purple iceaber. Yeah, she, it's Asoka now. You can't have, you know what I mean? It's more so that a night nurse existed in that Netflix show,

more or less to be like, hey, Matt, I'm sick of your shit. You got to stop this? I thought the character was really well done. No, it was really good. I liked Rosario. Yeah. But, like, I'm curious as to know where somebody like that is falling into a show like this, if we can assume that she's back.

because A, that would be awesome, and B, I'm really curious to know that if he has now become Daredevil, the hero that everybody knows him to be, what's to stop him from kind of going down a path of self-destruction? Well, he always kind of does. He always does. But, like, he's always held back by the friends and people around him from fully going off the edge. If I'm being honest, I want it more comic book accurate. I need, I need Daredevil, you know, clapping the cheeks of Black Widow, Elektra, Night Nurse, just like, every single. single episode just a new dream. You know what I noticed?

There isn't a black comic character, in my opinion, that gets the same type of motion with the ladies to me. Wait, Luke Cage? Kind of.

Wait, Luke Cage, because even, wait, in Netflix, he got, he got with Night Nurse. Jessica Jones. Jessica Jones. Misty Knight? He got wearing the, in the, in the Mississippi. Yeah, I don't remember.

Okay, so I get it. I'm talking about, That, okay, point taken. I'm talking about comic-wise. I don't know that there's a black comic character that has the roster of a daredevil or Spider-Man. Black Panther? Black Panther?

Okay, who has Black Panther? Had, excuse me, we don't mean to. That was a little sages. That was a little saji. That was a saji point. I apologize, says a little saji. Who has Black Panther dating? All of Black Panther romances.

Storm. Okay. The white woman in the comics. Yeah, yeah. Okay. The white, you just say the white woman. Who is,

who is that monster is kind of not? Monica Lynn. Nah, yeah. We're not. Yeah, it's not really, it's not,

it's not really, it's not working. And honestly, if you're being honest, they don't give Miles Morales the type of play that they be giving Peter Parker. Excuse me. Miles Morales is a cuck.

Like, like, like my, like my, like my, like my, oh, is a little.

Oh. Oh. Y'all. Y'all. That is a child, man. Okay. All right, man. I'm so fucking sick at this.

Bro. Bro. I'm so fucking sick at this. Don't, Joe. Can we talk about it or not? Unwokening is happening, man. Can we talk about it or not?

I'm so sick of it. Back to, but back to the point is what I meant to say about Miles Morales is that Miles Morales is chasing behind. And I guess Peter kind of was in Spider-Man Homecoming, right? But Miles Morales was chasing behind Gwen the entire thing. Spider-Punk is kind of doing his thing.

They don't give him the same type of. You think about superhero relations, though. Unless you're at the X-Mansion, everybody's acting like being a superhero is at like the Olympic Village or something. But like a lot of superheroes tend to just date normal people. They get busy with each other. They do.

They can't understand they lie. Spider-Man don't got to fucking. dollar to his name. He broke. And his roster is fucking incredible. What are we talking? He is the man. I mean, he's a six, what, six two white man in New York.

Don't got a bed frame. Don't got nothing in his fridge. Late, hey, late for everything. He got away with worse. Late for everything, don't show up completely unreliable. And really, when you look at it. Musty, probably? Probably.

You know, it's a lot. Oh, that's crazy. What? You don't think Peter Parker don't spell musty, I would hope not I would hope not you're gonna be up around all those types of women

He and a body suit all fucking day running around I think white women kind of like musiness a little bit I think they like a lot of white guys

and I say You can't tell me They don't be shower though You can't tell me that Don't wash their legs in the shower I think it's a muskiness I wash my legs in the shower I do you watch your feet

Yes I don't think you do Why do you not think I don't think you do I don't think you do I'm not getting caught up. Do you use a washcloth? Yes, I do.

I don't believe you. Why do you ask? Why do you ask? You don't believe it. I don't believe you. Then don't ask. I think these are commonly held things that you know how to say the right thing to. And you're just saying shit.

I don't think so. Do you have a body wash shampoo? No. No. Are you sure? Yes. Steve, no, Steve definitely, you seem like the cup of dude. He got that shampoo, you know what I'm saying?

You got, dude, that everything shower. I got the shampoo conditioner and hair mask. You wear. Steve, you get in there, you let the water hit you, you put some head and shoulders on it, you get out of the shop. Absolutely. You think I just like run through the shower, that's it? I will, as a kid, I used to be like going around, be like,

white people smile like baloney. What the fuck? They do. One more day. One more day of black history of my guys. Before we get to the next question, let's go to a quick. This episode is brought you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess.

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Or is it you? Oh, I just had mine. So you can do yours. All right. Is the MCU and honestly Hollywood at this point capable of designing an engaging fight slash action scene? And what I mean by that is after Cap came out, they had to bring out the Winter Soldier Joint. And I've seen so many clips of, you know, the knife flip, the dida, did a da da. And this seems like this is like every single time, like one of these, like, it's not just super,

anything comes out. They're just like, damn, why aren't the action scenes hitting like they used to? Why is the fight choreography hit like it used to? And I think that if there's anything that we remember about Daredevil on Netflix, it was, it was, even if he's not doing all the flips, it's a well. Oh, it was great. Every season had a single great fight scene that was like a oneer shot or like a fudged one or shot that was like the hallway fight that.

him fighting the bikers in the stairwell. And then there was a third one that I missed. Yeah, the prison one. All of those were great. And none of it had the, like you said, like, I wanted to retire that whole like parkour kick choreography. Yeah. Where it's just like you do a unnecessary backflip into like a kick for some reason.

And I'm like, that's not working for me anymore. And they had done it on Disney Plus before in the beginning. I think Falcon and the Winter Soldier, I know motherfuckers was hating. I do think. The fight scenes are fantastic. I think the bucky, the hand-and stuff, us are great. U.S.

Soldier, I think it was in the penultimate. That's a good fight. Even the training sequences in the, like, I know people hate the finale and whatever, but I'm like the training sequence when he has like the shield. Yeah. I'm sorry, man. I'm not going to get off, go off of the tangent.

I don't know what y'all talking about with Falcon and we're a soldier. It was the finale. It was just like the finale. It was just like flags matchers weren't that great. They weren't good at all. Sharon Carter's. The power broker stuff. That didn't work either.

But when we're talking about, like, fights even like, I think Moon Night, the fights in Moon, we're like, fine. I'll tell you something. They were all right. There is a fight scene in Falcon and Winter Soldier where it is John Buck and Sam against the Dora Milage inside. Oh, that is fucking great. That's great. Where they take his arm off? Yeah.

Okay. But to your point, yes. Let me tell you something about the fight scenes that I think are not working. Okay. I think to really have great fight scenes in the movie, you have to have a clear narrative. Yeah. I think you have to have a clear understanding

of the capability of your protagonist, of what the protagonist is up against. When you're looking at Captain America versus the Winter Soldier, there's a clear narrative there. Winter Soldier is a mindless killing machine that's willing to do anything to kill his intended target.

And Captain America, is fighting a defensive fight, but one where he's still trying to figure out everything that's going on, that comes across in the fight scene. With Winter Soldier dropping knives and doing everything he can to, just kill Cap. And with Cap fighting, like, how do I stop this unstoppable mindless thing, right? I think a lot of times in some of these fights,

we don't know what we're actually supposed to be looking at. I could talk about Iron Fist, the Netflix series, where he's supposed to be the greatest martial arts artists in the world or one of them and the fights just don't make any sense. That makes the whole show not makes sense or even Shang Shi to where Shang Shi is obviously a killing machine, right? But if that movie existed to make Shang Shi the single greatest martial artist in the MCU, it failed, right?

And by the way, those fight things are great. I think. Once you leave, once I go to. I forget wherever they go to, it kind of falls off. But like, we're talking about this the other day, I think. The scene on the bus, the scene in the... No, but here's the thing.

Those scenes are great, but I think something that has been lost to, because when I watch a lot of martial arts movies, is I think the thing that we come to superheroes for, wrestling for, manga, anime for is just like, yo, how does my protagonist fight? How does the way they fight?

Like, when Spider-Man's doing flips, backflips in the original Daredevil Netflix show, you're like, oh, he was raised by a boxer. He knows how to do like martial arts, but a lot of his fighting style is like, I'm going to take a lot of licks, but I'm never going to go down. It's like, yeah.

And it's like where, sometimes with these fights, I'm like, they don't feel like these characters have a style. This could be any CGI fucking. If we know who the characters are and the fights reinforce that, it makes a lot more sense. Just throwing a fight scene in something like, one of the big problems with, with Captain America

Brave New World is when we're watching Sam fight we don't really know what Sam is supposed to be capable of we know Sam is not a super soldier so he's going to be not quite as fast and not quite as strong as cap but how do we really come to terms with

when Sam drops into a fight is everybody else going oh my God Captain America's here like are they like oh shit because when fucking Steve Ross Rogers arrived on that boat, they went through letting us know, no one fucks with this guy hand-to-hand.

I mean, when he fucking boot, like, was running past Black Panther. That was them saying, like, this is the man. When he's on his field, that's the fast. I mean, the scene in the elevator. Yeah. I'll give you another one that really grounds the character of fight scene. When Tachala loses the powers of the Black Panther, and then he's, he's not. he has to fight killmonger in ritual combat and he loses.

Those are two people that are fighting a completely different battle. One is desperate. The first thing that Kilmonger does in that fight, and it's interesting, I saw this somewhere else. The first thing that Kilmonger does in that fight, if you go back and watch that fight, if he looks at his spear, right, and he breaks the spear and hat. Because it's too long, it doesn't feel right. Like he's sizing things up.

Shaka Zulu, back when the British were fighting, when he was fighting the British, shortened the spear. He shortened the spear to make the spear a more lethal killing machine. The spear was too long, it was whatever. He shortened it to make, and so the first thing that he does is he looks at it,

he goes, boom, I'm going to break this in half. It's easier to wield. I've fought this way a lot. And by the time they fight at the end, it's two Black Panthers fight. fighting each other, and now Tachala has more experience fighting on his home turf in Wakanda and fighting as a Black Panther, he beats Killmonger. So if the characters are narratively clear, and I stop talking after this, I think the fight scenes will be better.

But if you have muddled understanding of your characters, you're going to have muddled scenes of them in action. Exactly. Couldn't agree more. What's your next question? My next question is, can Disney solve its street-level problem? What do you mean by that? And can the MCU solve its street level problem? The MCU has yet to give us really comparing street level characters.

Now, you could say that Spider-Man is one. No, I think they took Spider-Man. They turned up on a street-level character to almost a causal character. He got to bump. Yeah, he got to bump. You know what I mean? Right. So a lot of this is going to be, like, Netflix only has street-level characters, right?

So they were the masters of street-level, and it really worked. As a matter of fact, they depowered their characters to make them even more street-level, like Jessica couldn't really fly. They stopped doing the flying thing at all, right? So we didn't know. But the MCU has had a real issue to me with street-level characters and getting them right because their world is so big. If they can, this show will be like a great show if they can solve that problem.

So can I actually say to that point, I think the problem that the MCU has been facing is that I don't know if the MCU knows how to tell small stories anymore. Exactly. Where it's like, I think the thing that we loved about Darede Devil or Jessica Jones or even the first couple Spider-Man movies that weren't connected to the MCU is I'm like, they're trying to save their city, they're trying to save their friends. Their tragedy is like, you lost Uncle Ben and your best friend's dad is now this villain. It's like something we can understand.

But like take something like Moon Night. Moon Night is one of the most street-level characters you can really imagine. Instead of making street-level, they're just like, oh, well, he's mystic and he's connected to all this shit. And of course, there's comic book shit to that. but I'm like, I think what we're talking about with fights, what we're talking about with street level, we're all coming back to the same thing,

which is like to make Daredevil feel important, I think you kind of have to make his problems small. And not small as insignificant, small is like intimate. Intimate stakes and small stakes are very different things. And Moonite's a perfect example, because by the end of that show, he was fighting giant gods in Egypt. And every time that we can think about Daredevil

or even some of the, the better street level things. Like, say what you will about Miss Marvel, it kept with those intimate stakes. Yeah. Everything that was going to be culminating at that show happened at a high school. And it was only really going,

like, it had bigger implications, but again, it can only stretch so far. Daredevil's got New York, and he's got the idea that Wilson, one part of New York, not even a square, like, not even a square mile. Like, yeah, like someone who's lived in New York,

it's so funny that it tells Kitchie, because I'm like, House Kitchen don't be looking like this. Howl Kitchen nice is nice. I went to the gym in Hell's Kitchen. The temple gym with the community. The community was in Hell's Kitchen. It was...

That gym is beautiful. I'm like Daredevil flipping and defending like millionaires. Which would actually would be very funny if in the show that was dressed. It was like, man, we got a Starbucks right where Daredevil's beating the guy up. Where should Daredevil actually be relocated?

Harlem. Harlem? Harlem's nice. Harlem, Gentified as far as far as. Fuck, too. Parts of it, but then parts of it not. I want to see Daredevil with Jim Jones. Oh.

Camron? Cam. Killing Cam? We'd have to get Jim and Cam back on the same page, but I want to see, I want to see Daredevil out there. Freaky Zeke. Daredevil in the dip set. Relocate Daredevil.

Let Daredevil patrol haul them. You know what I'm saying? I want to see Daredevil at the Rucker playing basketball with the kids. You know, you know, superheroes always got to play basketball with the kids. I thought the Daredevil. You got a mace just like, fucking dancing all these beating up bulls. I'm telling you.

What's Daredevil's box score? Or send Daredevil, if you really, if Daredevil really want to get a workout. Oh, Daredevil. He definitely, Daredevil. No, actually. He could dunk, but he probably got no skills. But here's the thing.

He's good. Would it be all the noise, all the sweat insmet would fuck him up, I think. I don't think it would. I don't think on defense, oh, he'd be a stopper. You know, he's got the reflexes. But once he gets that ball, Yeah.

Pass that thing out. Maybe. He's good for a screen. He's good for... Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, really quick, I love this. What Marvel character would be the best at? Spider-Man. Yeah, Spider-Man.

Yeah, Spider-Man. Yeah. Handles for days. He can get... I don't know if you're going to be able to handle that bitch. That's a skill, but I will say that, I mean, how are you going to stop? Yeah. He was not going to have his webs, though.

Not enough his words, but he can still jump. Spider-Man get into the rack. Yeah. He's drama ramp. You could be like... I would just like... I would say, why not the Hulk? Like, why not the Smart Hulk?

Like, what are you going to do with the Hulk? Yeah. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but he's looking to everything. Yeah, but can you dribble? Yeah. The only problem with the Hulk is, like, you put the Hulk in the game is like, you know, 12 dead. Exactly.

Like, he's not a smart hole. Like, let's say it's smart Hulk from which we'll call. Like, again, he doesn't have ball ball. I know, but. I feel like the Spidey senses on Spidey. Yeah. It's going to be, Spider-Man's probably the answer. Something like a, like a 6-9 Kyrie.

basically. Can Luke Cage who think? Nah, I call retail. Intimate stakes. Intimate stakes. I call retail. Jomey, what you got? So, we know the big villain

is going to be Kingpin. And over the course of the first three seasons was very lauded by three out of four people on this table. I'm not going to name names, but somebody. It's not really messing on them. We'll talk about it. But does Kingpin still have the juice

in 2025. Could. I don't understand it. This is so nuts. This is why I put this in here. Like, because I guess like, you know. Sight on the scene from this show,

I'm pretty sure that Kingpin still got the juice. I will, maybe, but I mean, it's a little different. I mean, Echo, Hawkeye. Eh, I would, but I would say that those shows are not the same.

It's not the same vibes. It's not the same energy. Right. But watching the show, the first season, we were like legitimately like, yo, I mean, super violent. I mean, killing

a dude by closing the car door. Just like a complete and utter menace legitimately would put the fear when he was on screen. His origin episode in I think season one where like he murders his dad and he's looking at that white painting and then

it's echoed at the end of the favorite episode. Are you, oh my God, that's an incredible episode. We'll get to you. We'll get to you. I think yeah, it's something that I elevated the show. to another level of having a villain that you were terrified of, you were scared of, but also, I would say, like, understood,

but you're like, I can see how you could turn out this way. I can understand why. Certainly understood. Right? Yeah. And so it's been 10 years since the show premiered. Can they still give us that level of fear and intensity in that character specifically? I'd be interested to see it.

I think the three of us, Van, Steve and I, think it's possible. you, however, Big Chuck, you're not really messed with it. Vincent DeNofrio is a legend, but I've never, even back to the first season, I've never liked his character. That's so insane. It's a very handy performance.

I've been on record saying it's just a very hammy performance, and either you lock in, and that's the type of shit that, like, you fuck with, it's just like... Is there, like, did you like Michael Clark Duncan and Ben Affleck's Daredevil more? No, not, not really. Is there a flavor that you need? No, it's like, here's something I just... think that like I understand why people like

his Daredevil. I think he could do a great I understand what people like his kingpin. I just wish he would like take the fucking haminess down by like 15-20s. But he's a giant like in the comics he's like 10 feet tall and like this ride. It's just like he's always like you embarrass me in front of Vanessa.

You heard Vanessa. Sit down Murdoch. Let's have a talk. And I'm like, yeah why are you talking like this bro? Just this. I like it. It's a very, as opposed to. It's a very soap opera-e portrayal. If you don't like the way, okay. Because I think everybody else on the show,

not everybody else is a little bit more grounded, except Honest and Punisher. Those are the two characters. I don't think Matt's very grounded either. Like, I mean, yeah. It's the, I think it makes sense for the world, right? Sure. It's like, electric comes into the, like,

he senses and he goes, Electra. Yeah. You know what I mean? I just think I think there is a part. I actually can see what you're saying insofar as if you don't like the played up drama of it, maybe it gets to you. I think the character is breathtaking. I think the desperation of the character comes across in almost every single word that he says, it seems like he's calculating and it feels like everything is being pulled out of him.

That's why energetically, the character is very villainous. It's a villainous character, right? But energetically, he doesn't seem like that much of a villain. He seems like a really wounded, desperate person that never had anything to love, that only knew how to break things. And that kind of makes what's going on between him and Matt

a little bit more fascinating to me. I'm not going to lie at a certain point, Matt just got to get a gun and just be like, wow. I mean, I feel that way about all of them. Yeah. You can't be struggling against just a motherfucker. So you are with the Punisher now. Well, I'm not with the Punisher.

I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm with the Punisher. I get why these superheroes don't want to kill. And I understand Batman why. I mean, I'm not going to lie. Batman will kill you. I don't care what nobody say. Like when Batman... You'll kill you with hospital bills.

When Batman dropped Maroni or without pony from that thing, it is luck that he didn't die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, no, he dropped him. He was like, this is all, won't kill me. And he's like, I know, I know. If you fall from a distance of 10 feet or higher, you have a 50% chance of dying. Like, it's a luck that he didn't die. The night boys need Midnight Busters where we just do this.

Like, it's like, we just take like a fucking dummy and we just like just drop it. Midnight doesn't kill Explain anything he does in that video game Every person dies But he's pulling punches But even still though Even still Midnight Busters is crazy

I love that Midnight Busters Bigger's crazy I love that I tell you Even that though Spider Man's holding back right Man Spider Man has killed

on accident He punch you You fall You hit your head Yeah there's a bit Accidents happen all the time Spider man too Like when he'd be kicking people

In the back Brother That's when he's done When he takes the webs and, like, throw him down. When Captain America is fighting and he's kicking niggas across a room. Off the beat. He kicked that dude off the boat. He drowned.

He died. Honestly, he died. He died. He was just so fucked up. But it's like, if Cap, like, just kills a random motherfucker. Like, let's say he kills a black man. Do you think in the MCU they, like, defund Cap? Okay.

You know, they go into the streets? Like, okay. This is, this is hard. Right? Well. Hmm. Hmm. Say what you were going to say.

Hey. Hello, Ringiverse fans. I regret to inform you that due to the initiation of Deep Shaddle Protocol, this bit had to be edited out of the pod. I know. I'm just as disappointed as you are. Thanks as always for listening. And the Midnight Boys, Poo Poo Poo!

We'll get back to you shortly. No. Jome. No. No. No, guys. Wow. Jomey.

That's out. That's out. That's absolutely. That's crazy. Steve, what's your question? My question is why did Joe me say that? Deep Shadow Protocol. That's out.

Deep Shadow protocol. Okay. I want the Deep Shadow to come in right after he says, and then, no, we can't. No fucking way. Absolutely not. You're out of your fucking mind. I can't believe that. Jomi, I literally can't believe you said that.

That was nothing. Deep Shadow right. You guys, production, we need you. Like, deep shadow right as Joe Me's going into that and then come out at the right end of it, no way. So my question. No way. Does Punisher have the staying power that we think that he has? Because frankly, to me, that was a bigger stumble in later season two and a bit of season three.

Obviously, he had a great solo show that actually is rather underrated to me. But I feel like bringing back foggy, bringing back Karen, those are great things that we need to add for Matt's backstory. Or for Matt's background. I feel like the addition to the Punisher, John Berthal is obviously great, but I'm really curious as to his, like, where he factors into this story because it feels a little ham-fisted,

to me, at least with a sight unseen, and I'm kind of worried about where he's going to fall in as far as, like, elevating the story. Well, I would... Couldn't agree. I know, yeah, I don't know, but... I would...

I'm not saying that he can't be great, but I think that, like, if anybody is that I'm worried about, I'm like, what's he actually doing? So, the first part of season, Two, the arc with Daredevil and Punisher, some of the, I mean, the show, I think, is excellent, but some of the best work the show's ever done.

The problem with the back-outers season two, I feel like is the Elektra-Nacho stuff, Lachio stuff, like that stuff is O-D. The hand, all that stuff is just convoluted. I was kind of okay with that. Nah, because that was whack. I mean, that was whack. You're going to get him fighting ninjas at some point.

I know, I know, but it wasn't done well. The show kind of drifted into this mysticism. that it could never quite explain. Sure. And so that whole thing became, it kind of wasn't what the show was a little bit. Yeah. So the Punisher coming back,

I feel like I'm ready for that. Right. That worked. That's the kind of, that's the stuff in the show that we know works. And so when I saw him in the trailer, I'm like, let's go bring Frank back, man. In my, in my long,

in my ever-growing list of nerd shit I didn't finish, I don't even think I've made it through to episode two of the Punisher. It was really good. That was a pretty good show. They got's pretty good. I think once again, it's like, I kind of agree with you. I think I see Bernthal's Punisher. I get why people like him.

He also is hamming it up. I do like the courtroom scene. Well, that's just me. The courtroom scene was too. I like when these guys kind of reflect who I know them to be in the comics. And every time they have a Punisher, like, winking at the camera or. being like Thomas Jane's Punisher is a movie that I think is kind of like it's a fun little

fantasy Punisher movie right John Travolta all of that stuff but they kind of bitched out a little bit and they they in really really portraying the Punisher the Punisher is a fucking psychopath yes he is a psychopath that is dealing with a raging piece of PTSD trauma that he cannot fill up with enough bodies. And he needs to look crazy. He needs to look desperate. I thought Bernthal got there with the robe. It's true.

There's also like a kind of a deft hand because there's a cartoonish level of edge lord that the Punisher starts to touch. And like even nowadays with like the so-called political affiliations of what people think Punisher means versus what he's actually about gets to be pretty sticky. I love what Bernthal did. I just kind of feel like that might be a tad over the top with what a daredevil story might be wanting to do. But again, like, it's worked before. I know that.

No, no, no, no. I get them. Look, the concerns are cool. It's not like they hit it out. It was a 10 out of 10. Yeah. I think the Punisher series kind of didn't quite get Jigsaw all the way right at the end of it, which is very important. I liked the character of Jigsaw and all of that stuff and how I got to it.

but I thought at the end of it, it got away from him a little bit. I really enjoyed that. One of the things I'm most looking forward to to seeing him come back as the Punisher because I'm really, you know, I have affinity for the other two Punisher movies. The Dolph Longer and...

That's legitimately great. I like it. It's so fun. And so written by a friend of mine, Boy, As you King. But I like it. But I think the most Punishery Punisher that we've ever gotten is Burnthaw.

You like Michael, you like Michael Mann. Michael Mann told John Burnthal that he couldn't act. Whoa, I like John Bernthal. I just don't like him as Punisher. I like Bernthal. Burnthal's dope.

Burnthal hams it up in every role, though. He's elevated. He's one of those go-for-type actors. I like Bernthal in most things. I think he's actually a good punisher. My hot take is, I'm like, Punisher just kind of sucks as a character. I'm going to fuck about him.

Interesting. Again, you got to do it with a deft hand. For sure. So my last question is Instead of the Everybody's talking about the defenders, the defenders, the defenders, fuck the defenders. That show is terrible. We don't need the defenders.

Let's slow down. I enjoy it. You like the defender show? For the eight series? The eight episodes? I enjoyed it. I think the problem was that they relied a little, like the whole thing revolves around Iron Fist.

Then that's whack. That's what? Terrible. That's the foundation that's not going to sell. They really thought they cooked with Iron Fist. It's tough. I can't understand. what and I'm sorry

man I don't mean to despair like I don't fucking get it I think it's a poorly cast like like the story was terrible convoluted

doing way too much the martial arts suck terrible if you don't get the martial arts right and this nigga was coming out listening out of the outcast and then like forgot about

that is true it just none of it worked It was like really, really, really. Now, there were some cool characters. Colleen Wing was cool. Yes. Colleen Wing was a bright spot. Actually, yes.

Bring her back. Yeah. I did not like who was the, I like him as an actor, but who was the fucking weirdo fucking brother? Uh, did. I, for his name starts of the JA camera. I hated that character. It was so weird. Yeah.

What's his name? He and his sister? Are we at? Oh, that's him? Ward. Ward? I fucking hated Ward. But anyway, my, my, my question for y'all is, I, I,

Obviously, I think we're getting an Avengers film with Captain America, Miss Marvel, whatever. It seems like everybody's in agreeance. Thunderbolts is just the Dark Avengers. Do we just need to give Daredevil like a new Avengers shit? Like in 2010, Bendis did a like, Bucky was on the team, Luke Cage was on the team, Daredevil, Spider-Man. Is there a new Avengers-type role for Daredevil where they could do a street level? On TV. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, like instead of going to defendants. Actually, they could do it in the movies, too. They could do it in the movies. I want... What they need is something to fight. Yeah, I want a special presentation. I don't think that it comes with a show. I think it comes with, like, just give us a fun one shot

that something like a werewolf by night, something like, you know, if you put it, again, if Echo could have been like a more like elevated movie type of thing, maybe that would have changed. But like, I like the idea of a Punisher special presentation. I like the idea of a Defender's. special presentation. They should give us two of those a year. Yes. I think

but here's the thing, if it was a movie, like I like the idea of like Spider-Man, Daredevil, Luke Cage, having to go against a Kingpin type. They can only do it in a movie, though. Yeah, there's no way that Spider-Man is going to be regularly on TV. There's no way. I like the idea of having a street, like our street guys,

even Moon Knight, throw him on that shit. Like, give us... Then we're talking Midnight Suns and that's what I actually... I don't want. Midnight's, here's a thing. We have to be so real. We have to be so... Midnight Suns is... Cool. Don't do this. Come on, man.

It's not. I'll be, can you guys give me one inter iteration of the Midnight Sons in any multimedia property that has been successful? Guys, frankly, the video game Marvel's Midnight Sons. It was really fucking good. Who talks about that video game? Nobody. Exactly.

Midnight Sons is terrible. It never works. So why can't we make it work? Why can't we just, why can't we make it work? Why? You and you guys have been trying for years. You the same do always like, why we always doing the old stuff? Why can't we try new stuff?

Now we try to do new stuff. We tried Midnight Sons. We've tried Midnight Sons a bunch of fucking times. Nobody gives a fucking comic books, video games. I'm agnostic about it. They could do it. They could not do it. It's fine.

Because sometimes I do think we're at a level where people are like, how did this thing not work? I'm like, yo, that shit didn't even work in the comics. We're just talking about now how Thunderbolts might be awesome. So Midnight Sons could be awesome. Thunderbolts actually has good comic books. Like there's like there's like comic books that have sold that people have read that I could recommend to people? I can't do that with Midnight Sons.

We love Guardians of the Galaxy, man. And there are good Guardians of the Galaxy comics. Are there? Are there? We didn't know before the movies came out. Nobody did. You might have been reading. I was reading an annihilation. Like, come on.

That's not fair. Y'all, y'all don't know. I'm not about to act like the guardians were the biggest thing in the world. But to act like the guardians haven't been around for a long time. I'm not saying that. Nobody said that. You can't say that.

Nobody said that. That's not what I'm saying. On a comic book, like, podcast show, y'all acting like, there wasn't a reason why they did Guardians. I know nobody gave a fuck about them in terms of, like, the larger populace. They unlocked the cosmic universe of the MCU.

Yeah. There was utility. I was there. I read the comics. I was there. Nobody. D&A. Nobody said that.

We're saying what you just said. Yeah, but just nobody cared. Well, there's a difference between the Midnight Suns and, like, the Guardians and Nova. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Is it possible that the midnight, midnight suns could have been a part of or unlocked the spooky part of Marvel, which the spooky part of Marvel, it's not going so well. Yes.

I mean, we had Werewolf by Night. That was probably the peak. I loved that. I loved that as well. But, but Agatha I liked as well. Sure. But it doesn't seem like Marvel's spookiness and witchcraft and stuff like that is taken off as much as they were. want to because, I mean, look, we still got

my fist, so we still got all of that stuff that's kind of out there, but doesn't seem like the spooky part is going as much as we need to. I kind of go back to it. I'm just like, I don't think that it is, it is not like a mistake that most of the good Marvel stuff

that we remember and talk about is based on good comic books. It's based on like stories and lore and like art that like people were just like, all right, how do we just transfer this to the movie? And I think for a lot of the stuff that we've got in, I'm just like,

yo, there's not really that many, if any, good Eternals comics. Like, there's, I don't agree with that. Like, which Eternals run do you like.

But, but what I'm telling you is that the, I'm not, this is what I would say to that. Now, if you say it, the in humans, I would agree.

But if, if, I don't like, I've never, there aren't examples. I've never liked the humans. Um, but I think the Eternals have,

I mean, the characters go back, so far, Charles. Like, I mean, we're talking about, like, they go back to, like, the 70s and stuff. Yeah, yeah, but of the Jack Kirby, like, iterations, like, I get it. There's some good new gods comics. Like, I get the new gods. Yeah.

It never, they always kind of flop. People are like, we don't really give a fuck. So, I don't know. It's not like you're not making points. Some of them I agree with. Some of them I slightly disagree with. I get what you're saying. Last one is something that we, for me, is something that we've kind of talked about.

is can the intensity of the Netflix series translate to Disney Plus? I mean, we just don't know, right? We don't know. No. But I did, I do have hope in one show that shows you that you can do this on Disney Plus, and obviously we know what the show is.

It's Andor. Andor is a very intense, uncompromising. That's not a lot of blood or stabby, stabbing, and all of that stuff. People do get crushed by money, though. People get crushed by money. But when you watch Andor, you get a feeling of desperation, stakes, and intensity

in that that shows that that can work on Disney Plus. Well, work at least from the standpoint of creatively. Yeah. We're still, I'm one of the people that thinks that Andor season two is going to be a much, much bigger commercial hit than Andrews season one was. I just believe that but when I look at that and I look at kind of how they need

to bring this character back for Disney Plus I think that they have a blueprint as to how to do it and look when you're bringing in Mews who's serial killer that you know paints in the blood of his victims you're going to have to push the envelope a little bit and I think that they're wanting to push the envelope part of the show

shows success whether succeeds or fails is going to be about how much of that they can do and not go how much of that they can do and stay true to the character I'll say again

how far they can stay how much they can stay true to the character and not completely alienate a lot of the audience that's on Disney. What's the most intense MCU product we've gotten on Disney Plus movies, whatever? That actually gets to the level of some of the stuff we saw with the Netflix

MCU Shia. Like sheer violence you're talking about? No, just violence, mood, just everything. It's like a real downer. I mean, it would be, it would be a Deadpool and Wolverine, but no. That was very cartoony. It was violent, but it's very cartoonish. They haven't really done it.

Yeah, that's, that is actually. I mean, unless you consider Moon, I mean, Moon Knight was, they were trying to, they didn't quite get there. They haven't really done it. I mean, you feel the dread at the end of Infinity War, but you know those guys are coming back anyway. So it's not like... I see some of the Guardian shit, like, I think has gotten gross out level just like...

But even that's very cartoony still. This is goopy, yeah. Once again, this is them dipping their toe into that because I really do believe that these upcoming properties with the, you know, obvious exception of Fantastic Four first... steps, they're going to have to be a little edgier than they've been in the past. Yeah. I mean, and so, you know, I think that's the thing.

That's my last question, though. Yeah. My last question is about the other folks. We talked a lot about Daredevil. We've mentioned, you know, some folks, but Karen, Foggy, Punisher, these are characters that, like, have arcs. I remember they got Ben Oric in, like, season one, and then our guy, Ray in season three, right?

Like, these characters that have, like, their own lives and have their own arcs, like, will the show do the same thing in this, in this series now? How do you mean? What do you mean? So, for example, we, I don't know if you, I mean, you guys have seen this, right? Like, they're talking about something that happens early in the season. People are thinking that one of these characters dies. Dyes.

Like a foggy or camera. Like a foggy or camera. And this is, spoiler alerts, but this is. Vincent Dinoffrio and Charlie Cox have been talking about this. Everybody's like they literally A traumatic event or something? Yeah, they talk about a traumatic event or something.

I haven't heard any of this. I've not heard of this. We're assuming we're we're we're just like putting down just seeing what they I can't even talk anymore. Long story short. At least care like Karen goes and kills Wesley right. She's got her own agendas in these things. Foggy has his own agendas. All these characters have their own agendas.

Will they can, will this? the new iteration of the show have characters with their own agendas. Are we just like, it's Matt side missions? Yeah, yes. It's Matt, it's Kingpin, this is what we're doing. It's the 1v1. That's all that matters. That's one of the more important

things to me is like a good, like good B plots for the people that are most important to Matt are really going to enforce how important the story is. I'm in the minority here. I sincerely hope that Foggy and Karen survive for the series. I hope so too. I'm in the minority. I know that people, but I sincerely hope that Foggy and Karen survive for the series. You know, you know what I mean?

I don't like killing April O'Neill. If Foggy gets backed up. I don't like killing Jimmy Olson. No. I don't like when they, when they do that stuff. Why do we need to fringe his friends just so that he can get activated? The good news is you came a long way. The bad news is you came the wrong way.

Wow. Well, we'll see what happened. I mean, I think this is going to be the boat. This is almost as difficult. is like getting like the tone and the fights and everything right because I think the thing that we forget about the Netflix series is those were written more like TV shows back then. Like you had like TV veterans being like,

oh, we need foggy and Karen. There needs to be an A plot, a B, plot, a C plot. It was that's traditional TV. And I think the things that have been so difficult for all of the Disney Plus shows is they're not written like TV shows. No. They're written like a three-hour movie that's like just cut up. And I think like people are going to get a little upset

if they don't have that flavoring of like, oh, everybody in Daredevil's world from Kingpin to him to elector to everyone, Night Nurse has their own goals and wants to meet. Yeah,

that's where I'm, that's what I'm looking for because obviously we can't, I don't think it works if it's just Matt Murdoch, back Murdoch, getting beat up, getting taped up,

just doing that for, you know, nine episodes. I hope and pray that all these characters get to, you know, get to advance their,

their agendas in the story because it just makes the world feel more lived in and more sprawling. And I hope so, but fingers crossed, who knows? Yeah. You? Mine was just a cheeky little micro question, but it's like, how many love interests are we going to see

from the MCU for Daredevil? Well, Karen. Karen's going to be there. But I'm like, if Shee-Hulk shows up, is that going to be a plus minus? She-Hulk. Here's the first thing, they're not paying for all that SCGI at this point. I mean, if Ms. Lonnie just shows up.

they might stay away from that. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I feel like that's kind of like the part of the show that they threw away. She all got pointed to the shadow realm

with me being honest. That's a shame. She could come back. I want to show. Defenders, baby. Come on. Nah, nah,

I love Tantiana Maslani as an actress. I liked the show for the most part. I did too. Show was cool. I like the show for the most part. We always, we always were like, I like the show.

These are the shows we never bring up. Yeah. But we never bring up this shit. We don't know about. But for the most part, I like it. Cool. Yeah. She hope is.

I'll tell you what they, I tell you what the main thing about Sheeulk was to me is they should have dropped Shee Hulk as a binge. Sheehoe didn't have the juice to be a week to week. They should have dropped it as a binge. For the most part, I enjoyed Shehawk. I didn't take Shehulk super seriously. No.

But I thought the show was funny. Yeah. I got what they were trying to do. However, it probably was a sweatsuit situation. It probably was a Yeah It probably was a Sweetsuit

It was It is Wait My last question For y'all Is What What are the series

That we can Kind of denote That like Baggy and Co had too much dip On the chip Where it's like Oh wow

It's a lot of them So it would be she-ho No I like the fact Look No no No what I mean Like too much dip

On their chip In terms of just like Yo we can pull Anything off Eternals. I like Eternals. I know we like Eternals is, yeah, that was. But Eternals is, that's from, that's from 35 feet, like shot clock winding down.

But they also thought they were doing the multiverse and they were doing all that stuff. I think quantum mania fits in that where I think they were like, we can do this. And I'm like, y'all get mad. Well, remember, they had a plan and they had to abandon the plan because the shit wasn't working and all of that stuff. But I get it. Like, all of that stuff is kind of, all of that stuff gets into the realm of quirk. I mean, even Miss Marvel, I feel like they're like, yo, we can take Miss Marvel,

we can give her different powers, we can make her cosmic, we can do this. You know what? You know what the answer is, really? It's Echo. Echo is definitely the answer. Echo is a heat check of all heat change. What if he,

what if Echo is in this show? She might be. That's fine. I didn't dislike Echo as a character. The show just suck. Actually, that's the thing that I think is like, I know I'm Mr. Negan. Like, I didn't like She Hulk,

but like, I don't like, think Tatiana Maslani was the problem with that show. You know what I'm saying? Can't name something? Okay, I just want to say something. Did Moon Knight have too much dip on the ship? Yes. Absolutely. Okay, I just want to make sure that we say that. Because if you go back and look at what we're saying,

we're saying that the characters that had too much dip on their chip were, I'm just saying, were Miss Marvel, Echo, Agatha, Shehold, and all that. So I just want to make sure that's great. I just want to make. And can I honestly? make sure that we, that I, that I name that. If I'm being real, if I'm being real,

I think that says less about us and more about when it was the white men. Muffer's got movies. It don't matter if the first movie was all right or kind of sucked. They got two, three, four at bats. And when it came time for the black people, the women of color,

all that shit, they was just like, y'all motherfuckers need to prop up our fucking streaming bet. And I don't think that's, here's the thing. I think a a Moon Night movie might have done a little bit better because the C.G.I wouldn't look so janky. You know what I'm saying? I don't disagree with what you're saying. I want a huge investment into these characters.

I will say that if they had gone about Moon Night in a movie, the way they went about Moon Night in the show, I still would have been annoyed. Yeah. Well, I don't, here's the thing. I think if you got some people who were doing, like directors and writers to do a Moon Night TV show, I think they would be like, hey, yo, let's not.

Yeah. Come on. We made some different decisions. Those are our questions. Chuck, real quick, before we get out of here, we got some news. All right, guys, we have some nerd news. This nerd news has gotten complicated over the last couple of weeks earlier in the week. Matthew Bellany, a couple others that reported that there were rumors that Kathleen Kennedy was stepping away from being the president of Lucasfilm after, yeah, some embattled years.

Yeah. At the helm, CNN reports, as of our recording, that there's some pushback, that the news for stepping down may not be. be true. As the person most plugged into the industry, Van, kind of this back and forth, is she stepping down? Is she not? What is that? What do you get from that? Lean from that. Well, number one, I believe Puck's reporting.

Okay. I just say that. But I do think that for reasons, for optics that Disney would run to, because what they essentially said in their response was that

if Kathleen Kennedy does step down, there'll be a public announcement surrounding that and it won't be leaked through any other trades, which essentially means that they think more of her

than to let somebody else on their terms announce that she won't be back, which I would hope that they would think more of her in that respect. I do believe the reporting that she's going to step down. I don't know what it means and you really won't know what it means

until they announce who the replacement would be. There are a couple of people that they talked about. Who are some that you would just say that are in the... Well, I have no clues. No, just in your opinion, who would be in the mix? Offaloni. Yeah. Would be in the mix.

Favro would be in the mix. Other business type people. You have to remember with something like this. First of all, I sincerely doubt that either Follone or Favre would be the person that they would choose. Definitely not Favro. But you have to understand, like, we look at her position as a creative position.

And certainly she makes creative decisions. But that is a being counter's position. Yeah, yeah. That is a business position. And if you are asking me, that position is not going to be filled. This is not me saying that Kathleen Kennedy is not a creative. She has a decades long.

I mean, like, yeah. The people were trying to be filled. trying to dance on the grave and it's like have some like a decades-long career of producing and being part of some of the greatest legitimately the greatest movies of all time. But if you think that they're going to elevate a straight up story person guy or gal in that position, they probably won't. It'll probably be somebody who can keep an eye on the ball in terms of the expansion of Marvel or of Star Wars or maybe contracting.

it a little bit. But it's going to be somebody whose job is to maximize the individual value from a monetary standpoint of every single production. So my question then... Just making sure productions don't fail.

That's the job. Whoever steps into that role, are we going to see someone who essentially, to your point, is like, is any of this working? And what I mean is any of this working, obviously Mandelorian Grogu probably is going to be a big success, but you kind of have a bunch of things that are either on the backburner

or in production where somebody's just like, maybe we went too big. Disney, like Marvel has already kind of been telling us that they're releasing less. Star Wars is obviously releasing less. Is this going to be someone who's more so like, how can we make these things shiny again? I think there, if I'm using intuition, or whatever I've gleaned, I think you're going to have

somebody in the position that redefines what working means. If working means creating characters that we can sell a bunch of toys off of, that we can market, cross-market,

that we can then culturally capture a whole new generation of Star Wars fans, the question will be how do you do that? Do you do that by simply flooding the market with stuff? Or do you do that with creating stories and creating content

that people legitimately and genuinely connect with, which is how Star Wars did it before? You can't do it like Star Wars did it before because the appetite is so much bigger. At the same time, if you don't love the acolyte, if you don't love the Mandalorian, if you don't love

Book of Boleford. Now, you're not going to love it when you're 15 years from now. I'm not going to love it 10 years from now. You're not going to love it 20 years from now. So that's the Star Wars problem, in my opinion, to figure out, is what is working for Star Wars?

And there's a sweet spot where you're making more Star Wars stuff than you used to because you didn't use to make any Star Wars stuff, hardly any stuff. But that the stuff that you're making resonates a little bit better. So some of these questions aren't so up in the air, you know? But neither, to me, neither of the gambols have worked where it's just like the nostalgia plays going all the way back from Han Solo to Book a Boba, Beth, to Obi-Wan. I would even say Osoka.

Some have been more successful than others, but most of them roundly have been either critically reviled or just like, Well, see, this is my thing about Asoka. Asoka is actually a character that has more story, right? There's more story to tell about Asoka. There's more adventures for Asoka. You can actually look at Asoka and be like, okay, well, we don't know what happens to Asoka. There's more stuff that you could tell, right?

That is different than some of the other stuff that they've done. Like, if you're going to recast fucking Han Solo, a movie that I don't mind. but if you're going to recast Han Solo, it has got to be perfect. It's got to work. Like, it has got to be perfect. But here's the thing.

Yes, there's more a Soka story to tell, but if you're going to spend that much money on a TV series, if I'm the beam counter, I'm just like, oh, wait, like,

it's not just enough for the, like, Clone Wars fans to show up for this. I want the people who are showing up from Mando season one and season two to show up for this. And I think it's like, even with their new stuff, it's like skeleton,

crew, like, as critically acclaimed as Andor was andor, um, all that stuff where it's just like, Acolyte, that's not working either. If I'm the new person stepping in, I'm like, all right, so our new gambits aren't working and our nostalgia plays aren't working. What the fuck he's right? So, but then you, do you run the risk, though, of doing, trying to do too much? It's like when a Phoenix Suns, you get a new owner, you like bet, we're going to trade for KD, we're going to trade for Bradley Bill, going on win.

I'm going to fire the coach. I'm going to get my guy in there. He's that gym. You know what I'm saying? When you get in there, like, none of this is working. I'm just going to remake the whole thing in my image. Do you run the risk of either just completely messing up or alienating people who've been following this stuff for how many years now?

I mean, right. People are already alienated. I think the job of the new president is to, like, steady the fucking ship. Where it's just like, yo, we need to get the diehards back on our side, but we also need to get, like, the people who showed up for Force Awakens. and we're like, Star Wars, it feels important again.

You need to get both of those and now you don't have pretty much either of them. So you're saying that James Gunn should take over Star Wars as well. I mean, actor. I mean,

you joke, but James Gunn looked at these characters and said, in my opinion, these characters have a place in contemporary American

storytelling that's not being served. Like he looked at Superman and went, you know, cynical, brooding, weird, moody, Superman, that's not just who the character is. There's a vision and a version of Superman

that has always worked, and let me tell you guys why it will still work. Now, if you have that same thought about Asoka, if you have that same thought about Cassie and Andor, if you have that same thought about Hans-Olo-Lew Skywalker, if it's inspired, then you go out there and you do it. But if Grohue is a little bit of... part of your story and then Grogu takes off and then you change the third season of your show

because you have to have Grogu because we need to buy the toys, the cart is leading the horse. Now, I'm not saying, now, look, I'm not saying that that's not a real thing, that people aren't going to, people weren't going to watch the third season of the man, though, just with no Grogu and be okay with it. They weren't. They weren't. They weren't. So then everybody put their hands together and create something that serves the characters and not so much

just the capitalism of it. I get that that's a really, really stuff. Like a stupid and ignorant thing to say because these things are all made to make money. But they will make more money

the more enamored we are. It's actually fun. I mean, you mentioned James Gunn. And earlier you'd mention that they should have bean counter. James Gunn, notoriously,

not a bean counter. you create. Correct. There's Peter Saffron. Peter Saffron's. Yes. But so, like, we, we joked about, like, you know, Faloni. Like, that would be, that would be funny.

But he too, but he, I know. He too locked. That's what I'm saying, right? But if you're going to, if you were to do a creative, it would, I don't, you would, I would pick Tony Gilroy. I think we all would like Tony Gilroy. He's not doing that job. That's not.

He's not doing that job. Yeah. Right. I mean, look, nobody who to. fans want to do it is doing it. Some fucking guy that, there's been some names thrown out there, some fucking guy who's been working for them,

who understands production, who understands budgets, who understands what the fans want, who understands this. It's not going to be a shiny hire that takes over that job. Honestly, I know I disagree with you last, last episode. I would be surprised the President Stepson. He's like, all right, uh, we're doing a Darth Vader

movie. And, uh, we recast Luke, fuck y'all. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. First thing they do at a Flower Celebration in Japan is like, Kathleen Kennedy step it down.

We got so-and-so coming up. First thing, Vader Trilogy. Boom. It's coming to your live. I'm telling you, the Vader thing is, I know that that's going back to,

that would be really, really cynical if they did that. But I don't have money. That would be really cynical if they did that. But let me tell you something. The moment that people see how the first verse version of Vader's suit hurts him, how it snacks, how it pulls on him, how the emperor treats him, how Vader is how he develops his meditation chamber, how he has to get his new lightsaber. How he trains. Like how he trains, how at first he has to use the force to help him walk because the suit is pulling him forward. Just so many different aspects of

the Vader actual origin story of becoming Vader. I'm just saying, you can do it. It can be done. You can be. I'm just saying. They cannot do it because he's going to make a movie. He's like, all right, we're going to do the economy of the fucking. I would love that.

Oh, the trade. Of the trade federation. I'm like, all right, man, get out of you. You know what? This is why I would not be a good person for that. Because fans like, oh, yeah. I would make a show just about regular people living in Star Wars. But not on tattooing.

And make all the other stuff that happens around them. Just like regular people. Like regular people. They try to death with skeletons. Just like talking about like... Just like on the phone. I'm talking about like stuff happens.

Man, you see what happened to the Death Star? That was crazy. You know, they blow that. Make everybody cameos making that bitch. Make everybody come in that bitch. Luke Skywalker. I'll recast Luke Skywalker. Look, y'all already fucked over Luke.

Y'all already made Luke... You're about to make Glenn Powell fucking Luke Skywalker, bro. Love it. Love it. Not a Han? Luke Luce I like I love it. Glenn Powell, Luke, Chad Powers. Chad Force Powers.

All right, that's enough. Force Powers. You guys, we're done. No more podcast. We gave you guys a... We gave you all two podcasts. Two podcasts. We're covering stuff next week.

We're we covering. Daredevil. You guys were beginning. It's starting. We're born again. I was going to make that. Oh, I'm sorry. It's okay.

It's too late. It's a mid-joke. all right meanwhile it's better than 90% of the jokes that I made that's right this week on the Ringiverse feed but MASH gives you their franchise

speed dating episode that's coming from Big Loke Limburg okay a new episode of Ringgivers recommends as well on the House of our feed Yellow Jackets and Daredevil coverage

will be in full swing our producers Alea Svisa Nairus Jonathan Kerma Jomi the explainer at dinner on hashtag Jomi Milk Mastermind

I love that You are the milk mastermind on social and additional production from our Juna, Ryan Gapal. Take us out. Daredevil is about to return. Ben Lindberg is a Crip

and I have to say of all of us this episode Jomi was on his ship. Boom! Oh, come. Oh. I apologize.

It's okay. Do you want to say that? No, you can do it. You can do it. You can do it. I'll do it again.