The Ringer-Verse - 'Dune' and the White Savior Narrative, Plus 'Shogun' Reactions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

The Midnight Boys return to give their thoughts on the success of 'Dune: Part Two' and discuss its depiction and handling of the white savior narrative (09:14). Later, they give their thoughts on the hit FX show 'Shogun' and how it deftly handles its historical drama (55:09). Hosts: Charles Holmes, Van Lathan, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone. I'm Mallory Rubin and I am thrilled to tell you that House of our has a new podcast feed. Joanna Robinson and I will now be with you twice a week with more of the deep dives you've come to know and love on the ring of universe. In addition to exploring all of your favorite nerd culture new releases, we'll have nostalgic revisitations, hype meters, hall of fame inductions, tropes courses, drafts, and more. All bad babies are welcome as we dive into Star Wars, Marvel, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, and beyond. Follow the new House of Our feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Welcome into the Ringerverse. This is, of course, the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things. Vandum. We are. Steve, the architect, Almond, builder of things, tinker of things.

We are. Jomi, the explainer at dinner on you. We got questions. We are. Coke, baby Chuck, aka the brunch haughty, aka he, Mr. Hot-Take. We are old man van. The king of. the receding

hairline. Soon to be resurgent airline. Together we are known as of a midnight boys.

Oh, you. Fouts on socials, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok,

save Jomi's job. Now, Jomi. Yo, quick check in. Checking is great, my man.

So's was doing. Instagram was down. It was down for a little bit, but the video views was going up, man. The loving

the video we gave one for Dune and guess what, guys, we got some more coming. So stay tuned. Here's the thing. You know what? IG and Facebook might have been down,

but you know what's on the rise, what's on the up? We're doing it. We're crowding the most important, the most powerful midnight boy. Oh, we can't. I thought we're going to wait on this. No, we can't wait.

We can't wait. Guys, you know, I think y'all all know, 2024 is the year of the Midnight Boys. You know what I'm saying? The most powerful, podcast potentially on the ringer on the ringer network if we play our cards right but the midnight ethos there are a couple people who haven't been living it you know midnight ethos is like getting money fucking respectable women that we don't call out of their names like just live in a type of

lifestyle what what by the way i want to let everybody know this hold on hold on before we even get get everything that you're hearing charles has sourced this as a we, we, we have to do this. We have to do this. This is all Charles. None of us have no, any idea what Charles is about to say. No, no, I'm running the most, I'm crowning the most powerful. No one has, I don't know even what this is about.

Chuck, by all means. Because I've just seen, I just realized that I needed to crown the midnight boy who's actually living the lifestyle and isn't faking the funk. So the first one, Van, you get a pass. You know what I'm saying? You get an excused absence. All right? But some things that I saw on Saturday night was very, very distressing.

Okay. Midnight boys, Sands Van, were out on the dance floor, living it up. Kerm, you know, honorary midnight boy was there, right? I was so proud of Jomey. Jomey was just out there schmoozing. Like, the dance floor would literally vibrate anytime Jome was there. Oh, my God. First, I got to go to Kerm.

Abandon Jomey in the middle of. the night without saying a fucking word. It was so egregious. I literally, it was like they left their man behind in war. I've never seen. And you know what? Jomey didn't blink. Jomey didn't flinch.

He said, I'm staying here. I'm fucking partying. I'm living it up. And that's why the most powerful Midnight boy has to be Jomey. Because he doesn't give up. even when the other midnight boys give up on him. Steve Kerm, it was the nastiest shit. I don't think that's fair.

I mean, it was really, it was really. It was late. It was one, one a.m. And clearly they had better things to do at the crew. We're all the midnight boys. You know? We can't make it past midnight. So, Jomey, yes.

Here's the situation. Mm-hmm. Charles has bestowed you with something. He's bestowed you with honor. He's bestowed you with praise. I would have done that. The question is this. Do you accept this?

Do you accept the honor bestowed to you by your fellow Midnight boy? Stairs and Stilgar. Do you accept? Waiting for his, Lisa, not the Gai.

I, and you know what? I'm going to be completely honest with you, fellas. I think I have been holding back a little bit. You know, I've been a little scared. I've been a little timid.

I think this, especially this summer. This summer, I'm getting into my Lisa and Al-Gai-E bag. Lisa Al-A-I-Ebe. Let's get it. I'm getting into my morning. He's the Liza on-A-Ga-Eep.

I told you. Lisa on Al-Gai-E. It's top. He's going to lead all of us washed-ass Midnight Boys to the Promised Land. Jomi's the chosen one. Jomey, that it, there it is, Jomey.

And who, whichever, beautiful woman of the spice-filled deserts of L.A. you choose to mate with shall bring the Cuisatch

Chalach. Whoever, I'm going to ask you all for the rest of the year, have you implanted the quidass Hapidazcairass? Have you implanted? Have you implanted? We're all going to know because we're going to be able to telepathically talk to the baby.

The baby's going to be reaching out. Talking to Jomi's child would be insane. So crazy. He just gives us the voice. Silence. Silence. The child is like, Uncle Van, turn on agents of shield. Like, okay.

There is, Jomi. Now listen. You sound like I got to eat. I got to look. It's a heavy responsibility. It is. It is. You got to make this decision coming up whether or not you're going to drink the goddamn

damn worm piss Go south I don't think it was piss I don't think that was piss Piss blood whatever it is You know you got to call it Am I going south To drink the water of life

Are you going south To drink the water of life So you got to make the call Man got to make the call Alright let's get into it All right Charles great call Um Uh

The Prore at my eyes On Friday the House of ours Throwing a Dune Melback Dube Dune mailback On Friday I love that I loved House of

podcast. It's fantastic. Deep dive on doing it. If you haven't checked out, I'll go check that out right now. Next Monday, the Min Edition is having an X-Men draft in an honor of X-Men 97. Who's participating in this draft? It's going to be me, Steve, Daniel, and our guy that you just slandered for 20 minutes. Oh, wow. So let me, so no Ben Falkin Lindbergh on that. This is crazy. That's nuts. He's busy getting his bacon. egg and cheese. No fucking bin, fucking Limburg. Hey, oh, fuck you.

Picking and a cheek. Bigging a cheek. With the bed. With the bag. We outside. We are outside. We are outside. We're outside.

We're outside. We're outside. We're outside. The big of nike cheese. I got your motherfucking butt mash right here, huh? Hey. I got to come mash this, huh? Come mass.

I got your fucking mask. I got your fucking butt mess right here. Fucking come mash this. Huh? Fucking come mash this. Fucking limber. All right, on today's show, we give our instant reactions to FX's Shogun.

And I know you guys are going to love this. We're going to have a semi-in-depth and serious discussion over the interpretation of Dune 2 as a white savior movie. Now, let me say this. Spoiler warning for both Dune and Shogun. If you have not seen Dune 2 yet, Shame on you. We're going to spoil some parts of that. And if you have not seen the FX series Shogun,

we're definitely going to spoil up to the first three episodes of the series and maybe a little bit more. Before we get into that discussion later on, I want to say this to everyone. Disclaimer before we can get there. So everyone can hear this. Because as I said that, I want you guys to know that I'm realizing that a lot of brains just exploded here.

All right. I'm going to give a short disclaimer. two, a couple things for you guys to understand here. Number one is that outside of Steve, no one has read the Doom books here. Okay, is that, is that fair to say? That's fair to say. Okay, so outside Steve, no one has read the Doom books here.

And the vast majority of people that are experiencing Dunn in the movie Theers right now, they haven't read them either. Okay. I understand intent on the side of Frank Herbert and what Dune is trying to say. I'll say this, though. even Frank Herbert himself when he wrote the original books, as I understand, was frustrated that people didn't get what he was trying to say,

therefore another book came. So I don't think it's fair for everyone to sort of intellectually bully people who are watching the movie and experiencing it and having it reflect things that are familiar to them about other tropes in media that have not been so harmful, excuse me, that have not been so great, a little harmful in the past, and also just experience in the movie in the way that they generally experience it

without having the books as intellectual undergirding. So I would say that this conversation is being had, and I don't want to play this card, but I'm saying by three black people and Steve. Okay? And the important thing here,

and I'm asking the audience for latitude, because it's an intellectual conversation. The important thing here to understand how something comes off and then to allow us the space to discuss it like we do everything else without bashing, without

without, look, we could be stupid, we could be reactionary, we could be, like, we could be, all of that stuff, we could be whatever.

But I think the height of privilege, the height of it, just like the height of misogyny, just like the height of sexism, the type of all it, the height of privilege is telling us that We don't have the right to have a discussion about the way something makes us feel because either we don't get it or it's going over our heads.

So I would say that. Perfectly said. So I like, let's just get into it. So then can you explain? Because you called me up. You had a lot of interesting conversations. Catch the listeners up on basically what not only a white saver movie is to you. but why we're even having this conversation in the first place as a follow-up.

Okay. So I think a couple of things. So I'll take the second part first. The reason why we're having the conversation is because the movie is a cultural phenomenon. And when you're sitting in Dune, and this is, I'll speak for me. And we'll go around and, and by the way, you guys, they're jokes. Steve has a place in this conversation because of his knowledge of the books and also because of the fact that Steve is an unimpeachable ally. despite whatever jokes that we make on this,

Steve is a dear friend and an unimpeachable ally. Like the best guy has one of the best hearts and really is empathetic in terms of the way he looks and views all people. Steve, probably one of the best news I know. So obviously, you know, this is a four-part conversation. And everything that happens on that meeting that boy is a four-part conversation, including dissing Steve.

And we'll continue to do that. Um, now. Hey, it's March now. So, oh. Damn. There we go. St. Patrick's Day. Okay.

It's almost charged. Patrick's day. Yeah. The hot of his powers right now, man. See? Okay. So this is why. So I'm watching Dune.

I'm blown away inside of Dune. I'm experiencing the movie. I'm loving the movie. And there is a thing that happens. There's a thing that happens that's happened to me before. What I see when I'm watching the movie is this story that interrogates. of these things, the Savior Complex, the Messiah Complex,

interrogates family relationships, and interrogates usury, oppression, all of those things. But I'm seeing white-coated characters with this pristine sort of generational power, interact with black and brown-coated characters that represent. represent a more nativist, a more, it's very familiar, meaning that the fremen are people who have learned how to live symbiotically with their environment. Heavily religious, they are.

Spiritual, they're closer to nature. They're closer to nature. All of those things, right? So it's just like the same way we have conversations about Marvel movies and things like that. And we go, well, why is the power of a, of a native group always a spiritual power? Why is in a scientific power? That's not to say that the Freeman didn't have science. They did, but science is heavily based upon the natural world that they were around. Now, me personally, as a black person, I think that that's beautiful. And I think that the beauty of my ancestors is that

they were able to live like that without exploiting the lands and other people as much as some of their Western conquerors. But yet and still, that's very familiar. And then when you see Paul come into their group, the way that they invite him in, the way that he becomes one of them, and the way that really at the end of Dune 2, the Freeman seems to have more agency on Iraqis. Charles, it seems to me that that fits

some of the white savior tropes that I've seen in other movies before that. And that's not revisionist after me leaving the movie. You and I were looking at each other inside of the movie while that was going on. And so the white savior, movie to me quickly so I can stop using up air. The white savory movie to me in short is a film where the specific virtues of whiteness or Western European culture or general mass culture are filtered through one character to benefit a less evolved group of people. So

Something that there's, there, whiteness is imbued with this special power, the special outlook, this special strength that rises, that, that takes an oppressed group of non-white people out of where they were and to heights that they hadn't reached before. And we've seen that in a couple of different movies. And normally the white savior has to normally adopt some of the ways or get close with some of the people or get into some of the people. but it's because they are white, they can help you figure something out. So that's what I would say. Chuck, what you got?

So I've been thinking about this. Ever since you brought this up to me, I've actually been thinking about this because I think one of the things that I actually liked about Denny's interpretation of Dune, and especially after seeing what Lynch did, we already kind of spoke about this, is Dune, part one, and two,

are obviously trying to interrogate the white savior narrative. they are trying to poke at it and basically say, this is the dangers of Messiah figures, this is the dangers of white-coated characters coming to these lands, blah, blah, blah, blah. What I want to actually know from you, Van, is now I've been thinking about, even if the intent is to interrogate the white savior narrative

and kind of show the dangers of it, are there limitations in sci-fi movies? And what I mean by that is like, fucking Timmy is still writing a sandworm and it's still this, now it's going to be like this iconic rah-rah moment, this rocky moment of, oh my God, I feel so electric. But because it's a sci-fi movie and because Denny has been waiting quite literally his whole life to make something that can remind you of an empire strikes back or these big moments of seeing white sci-fi characters conquer something.

something, does the intent start to get muddled because it has to work as a movie? Where it's like, to me, I'm like, a white savior movie can basically be showing you the dangers of a white savior, but also be caught up in kind of the Hollywood film history, lore, aesthetic texture of what it means for a white person to be super big in a sci-fi film. Does that make sense? It's the only question that actually matters in the entire. argument. Legitimately.

It's the only question that matters in the whole argument. The only question that matters is can you do it and did you do it? Right? Because once again, as I was talking to Joe about this, Joe informed me, Joe who's an expert

in the Dune books, that Frank Herbert had wrote Dune and people had taken the book in the wrong way. And so he wrote Dune Messiah to actually crystallize what he was trying to say. I'm assuming that this will be taken in much the same way, right? The question that you're asking is, is, are you capable of telling a story of a white savior while depicting someone who is a white savior or liberator in a negative way?

Is there too much culture behind it? Is there too much? are we too intuitive in terms of the way we look at this stuff to really accept the information coming from the screen as we should? And the answer is I don't think so. I don't think that there was a way for me.

Well, do you think that's why a lot of people left? Like, it's funny. Like, I was scrolling on Twitter and people were dunking on people who left the movie thinking that Paul was the hero. and basically think And I was just like Fair though

Like Calica Like even And guys I know that that's a thing I know that that's a thing But like Calica My dear woman Okay

Who left the movie She thinks Paul That Paul Atretees Is the hero of Dune She does Like I mean Paul turned into a more Resolute guy

At the end That he became cynical and he became obsessed and he became like closed off. He put on black the whole nine. But that's like the last 40 minutes of the movie. I mean, you know what this reminds me of? This reminds me, remember what Game of Thrones is coming out? And like we saw, like they got killed for that shot of all the black and brown people

lifting up Danny. And you had all these people like naming their. kids after DeNaris, DeNaris, DeNaris. And then we get to the final season. And people are like, wait, why did DeNaris turn bad all of a sudden? Like, why is she like fucking burning these people to a crisp? And people started dunking.

They're just like, that she was always going to be the villain. They've been teasing this and did not. And I'm like, if you actually go back, I'm like, you can see how a lot of the audience is probably like, I was told that Danny was the hero this entire time. Did you do enough to make it convincing? that she is actually a villain. And she's doing something very similar to Paul,

which is leading a bunch of black and brown people to paradise. And I'm like, that's the thing that I'm like, sci-fi keeps falling into year, year after year, decade after decade. So let's do this real quick. To the Danny point, let's sort of cut these things into quarters or the halves or whatever, right? or thirds.

So Danny overall is definitely not the hero of the Game of Thrones. Right. The question is, is Danny the hero of the unsullied? Is she the hero to all the slaves she liberated? Is she their hero? Is she the hero of Westeros? Is she bring all of that order back? No, she didn't.

But two, all of the slaves is freed, to the unsullied, to everyone. Is she their hero? And I would say that she probably still is. And when you look at this Doom Part 2, you're looking at people that are coded as heroes and villains in the movie. The Atreides, the House of Traeys is gone. The bad guys are the Harkinans and the emperor. And the good guys are the Fremant. That's how we stand with.

stand with it. The battle is between these two people. At the end of the movie, the Harkinans lose, and the Freeman win. And the leader of the Freeman is Paul. So if you're looking at this movie, Dune 2, not through the lens of the entire galaxy and the millions and billions of people that will be killed because Paul has taken power. If you look at it through where the Freeman were at the beginning of this film, which is essentially carrying out almost singular and insular

insurgent attacks on spice production while retreating back to a hidden home and hoping to avoid damage from the Harkinans. If you look at where they are at the end of the movie, they run the planet,

maybe with bad leadership, but they are in power. did it cost them something? Yeah, they got their homes blown up. People died. It happens in war. At the end of this movie, though, they run the joint. So it's hard to look at the movie and say that they didn't win.

And if they won, and since they won, it's hard to look at the movie and say they didn't win because of him. So can I ask this as well, though, because this is something I, like, I truly want to know. What I want to know from you, then, I do find even the politics of Dune as an enterprise funny because Paul is so worried about essentially what the Fremen and what that religion

and what that will do to the galaxy, right? The oppressor, this fear of the oppressors or the oppressed becoming the oppressors. I was like, if the Fremen don't do this, the Harkinans are still oppressing them. The white-coded, the white-coded characters are still going to oppress them. And that's why I'm like, is sci-fi the best vehicle for this? Because I'm just like, what does it matter if they're going,

because Paul is leading them, it's going to kill millions upon billions of people. Millions of millions and billions of people are already being killed in the galaxy or the universe. It's just the white-coded characters are doing it. And that's even something where I'm like, can something like Dune even really interrogate that in blockbuster in a blockbuster movie form? Can I say something? If I may.

Yeah, actually, I was going about to, first of all, you don't have to ask if you can say something if you may. Do you see how Steve tap dancing there? Hello, hello, excuse me. Well, excuse me, African American men, as you have your highbrow conversation, is it okay? If I inject my intellectual sasperilla into the argument. Satspirilla?

Sassaparilla. Yeah, I look at sasperilla as being white. You know, I, like, when I was a drink, I don't even know what it is. Did you drink egg creams growing up, Steve? When I was coming up, I always wanted a sasparilla. A saspera. A sasperilla is like a, uh, what is that? It's a soft drink originally made from vine.

It's like a, it's like a root beer spin off. or something like that. Yeah, it's like a vanilla root beer kind of a thing, it looks like. I ain't never heard a nigger being like, yo man, we fucking with that sasperilla. Almost everything else that white people drink, I've heard a black person drink it at some point,

but I've never seen a black sasperilla drinker. I want to have a sasperilla with all of you guys. It looks like a phosphat. It's just like an old, old type of soda. The Redidators and the Facebook, Facebook, they go be like, then you're a fucking idiot. Here are 10 examples.

of black people asking for saspera. I'm here to learn. Bro, bro, bro, I'm here to learn. Show me the black. Hey, you fucking, show me the black sasperula. I'm here to learn. I just always wanted a sasperilla. And I would see it in the cowboy movies.

And obviously all those guys were white. So I thought that you guys were having a secret saspera. Wait, you can't get a Zasperala in Austin. I know they got some of that shit. Oh, that's a good question. I'm in Austin. Where can I get a saspirilla? Where can I get a saspiro?

I'm having a saspirola. Asperilla while I'm here. Steve, get your shit off. No, what I find interesting about, and this may or may not absolve, I'm not looking to make it absolve the way that the story executes itself, but a big problem that Paul has

with the emotional struggle for him to go south and that ultimate decision to make, to like confirm his legend and confirm his legacy of like, I will be there, Messiah, I will be their leader. He's reluctant, it's a mantle, he's reluctant to accept for a lot of

of Dune Part 2 until he makes that decision. And it's because he's also aware of the political machinations of the Benegeserate and the idea that the Benadigésirate have this like 90,000 foot view of the galaxy and power and structure that they are looking to manipulate, that his mother, through the tutelage of the grandmother of Benegeserate uses the Quix-Hatterak and the leader of the Frem and people as a power and as a faith-based ruler that they have not been able to control or foresee. And for 90 generations, they use and manipulate and plot and scheme in the background to try to pick that hero, to pick that savior in a manipulation of religious fervor. The Bede

are the ones that plant the idea of the Mouadib into the Fremian people for them to, even allow the type of person that could even save them for a person like Paul, an outsider, to come in and manipulate them as a people to lead them to war that would lead to the death of billions. It seems that Frank Herbert, a white man, wanted to look at this in a way of like, okay, how does the levers of power that white-coded characters pull? What are the levers in plans within plans that make something like that so egregious. Because the people that are in what they believe to be absolute power are just looking at things very smallly.

And then when you have the grandmother Benegeserate being shouted at in the voice by somebody like Paul, that's reckoning with the idea that like, oh, the savior that we engineered for these people just to control is far more out of their control. And I think that's an interesting way of looking at that from a 90,000 foot perspective up. I don't know if that's exactly something that would add to this argument, but that's something that I find fascinating that the idea of a white savior or a otherworldly leader to manipulate and liberate a people is still something that is planned and focused upon from worlds and worlds away. You know why that falls apart in the context of a movie, though? Is because in a book, you have like pages and pages to describe that.

But when you're watching it on a screen, you're like, all right, so the Benegeser essentially use eugenics to make a Messiah that can do all of this magical bullshit to fulfill this Messiah, this Messiah prophecy that they implanted into this world. Now, in the real world, they're like, Messiah figures are all bullshit. It's all smoking mirrors. The reason it doesn't work in a movie context is because, no, Paul's actually doing the shit. Paul is actually the hero. He's doing amazing things.

He is Neo in the Matrix. So your brain, it's hard for your brain to separate. Well, they say he's the Messiah and he's doing all this stuff that is completely different from almost anybody else on the screen. The Fremen can't do this shit. And that is the thing that is like, I think can trip. people up. And this is where we get into small liberties that the movie takes over the books because

of the sake of time and context. Because Dune is a much longer book than the movies will ever be. Just the first one. And Dune Part 2 ends with Frank Herbert's first Dune novel. The amount of time that Paul takes to actually learn the ways of the Fremant is a lot

slower and a lot more like progressive. Like Joanna mentioned this in the House of R when like he first rides a worm. Siligar was like, okay, yeah, like a 12-year-old could have done what you did. You kind of were shit at that, and with time, you can get better. He's amazing at it the first time when we see it, see it in the movie. The idea that, like, this elevates his ability and makes it so that he's able to assimilate

into these people, like, incredibly quick. And to see that, like, that was a bit more of, like, a power creep moment for the Dune Books is a slight differentiator that's worth noting. again, he does acclimate to it insanely quickly for an outsider. I have a question. And this might be like maybe two macro, but we mentioned how he wrote, Frank Herbert wrote the first Dune book,

was like, hey, y'all are not, Ginn'Paul, and then writes Dune Messiah. Do we think that Denny has the same thought about this movie? And because, look, Warner Brothers is going to throw every single dime they have to make a third Dune movie. do we think Denny takes a look at the conversation surrounding Paul right now and goes, oh, I need to make it very clear.

I thought he made it clear in the first one, or in the last one, but clearly some things, some wires got crossed. Does he make it extremely clear? Like, look, this guy, Paul, he's not the guy you want to be. No.

But it's not for not trying, though. First of all, Steve, go ahead and take that answer since you did read the books before I jump in. Sure. I think, well, I think Denny is like hyper aware of like making Dune part two

and then clearly knowing that there's a tee up for a third film. Like he's hyper aware of the eye of what is to come. Uh, and not to spoil too much of what would happen in Dune Messiah, but it's more or less the ruin of Paul the Traities and, and the, and the fremen people at the hands of war. Oh,

I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't watch as much as I could to see how it does how the whole thing goes. I watch. turns real bad. I watched stuff into the 3,000

year old worm dude. Yeah. That like, like, wild shit. Jesus Christ. So like that, that at the end and all of this stuff, I dug through it to try to so go ahead. Yeah. So the small

changes that, well, and big changes that Denny makes with certain characters surrounding Paul tease up a bit more of a, probably a better resolution for what a third film in the Dune, could look like because Shanti does not like agree to be his concubine lover like the end of the first Dune film in the 80s, nor does that happen in the book.

Like him and, Shawnee and Paul's mom get along swimmingly because they are the, you know, illegitimate concubine lovers of the, you know, the men in power that will ultimately accept them. Like, that's different. She rejects that. She goes off into the desert to seemingly do her own thing. That's a wild departure from the book. then he's obviously aware of what he's going to be doing with Zendaya's character

come a third novel or come a third movie and I think that that's going to actually solidify the anti-white savior narrative come the third movie and that's tough because we miss a lot of context without a third movie and that's kind of where we get to where like oh well this is clearly like a big departure from what the second movie is to anybody that's unfamiliar with the story of Dune wholesale So this is what I would say to the question, going back to a couple of different things. Number one, Paul himself, he is uniquely, uniquely qualified, right? In the 1984 Dune movie, I think it's either Gurney or the Mintac dude that goes,

you are the best student that we've ever had. Paul's the best student that we've ever had, right? Paul Atreides has a whole bunch of skills, just like Faye does. and those skills come from resource. They come from what he's been able to be exposed to. When you see Hector, the Prince of Troy, he's a fantastic fighter. Now, Paris is a bitch,

but at the same time, Hector is because Hector's had the best military training. He's had the most, he's got the talent, he's like Steph Curry. He's got the talent, innate talent, which Paul does, and he also has the best training ever. You can't teach somebody to shoot like Steph Curry

if it's not in them. However, if your father is Dale Curry and you have that type of tutelage and it's in you at all, Seth Curry is one of the best shooters in the league. That's how you make the best shooter of all time. Opportunity plus access. That's what Paul has, right?

Paul is a fantastic fighter. He's a good athlete. He's a fantastic fighter. He understands military strategy. He's been around Duncan. He's been around Gurney. He has been, the Traities were becoming the most powerful house. They had something to protect.

They have been grooming Paul for leadership, right? So he has a very specific set of skills that make him an asset to the Freeman. As far as him being their savior, he is their savior. and one of the biggest reasons why he's their savior is because they believe that he is. Like they think he is. So it doesn't matter who told them. There are Christians like running around here,

all types of religions running around here that have saviors. And those people are those guys as saviors, right? Because they believe that they're their saviors. So because they believe that they're their saviors, they supposedly live their life in a very specific way that's supposed to lead to a better life, a more coherent life. We could talk about whether or not it works that way, but we can't talk about whether or not that thing has saved them.

It's a bunch of people that, whether or not you believe that God exists or not, it's a bunch of people that's going to tell you, I got off drugs because of God, I got married to a good woman because of God, I was able to free myself from this because of God, I was able to do this because of God, all of that stuff. and those people's belief in that saving entity is part of what freed them from whatever shackle they were in before. So the fact that the Ben-Jezerate ceded the idea of the Lissan al-Gaib or the Muadib, that they seeded, it doesn't change the fact that the people, at least some of them, think that it's true. And the other ones that don't think it's true, Paul's very unique skill set and his ability to actually get the job done.

They were more successful under him. They were more daring under him. They were more aggressive under him. And it was his singular revenge, his bloodlust for Baron Harkening, and all of those things that made them that way. But he was at the center of it. He took chances that they might have not taken. He brought a different type of warfare to them. Even the use of the atomics and all of that stuff, they didn't have that.

They did not have access to it. He specifically has that. It's able to launch that big thing, that big attack because of who he is. And who he is is attached to his nobility. So these things are inextricable. The thing that I'll say about all of this, which makes the conversation interesting to me, is that it shows how limiting all racial and cultural experience is as human beings sometimes. Because it doesn't matter what the story is trying to say.

It doesn't matter what the goal of the story is, is that what, very frankly, guys, what a white supremacist Western worldview has done is that make us view everything in terms of how it hurts us and how it helps the oppressor. So when I look at the movie, the overarching plan or whatever of the movie, it's hard for me to access it

because I think here is another white guy helping the savages win. Here's another white guy and I'm not saying that the firm were savages. I'm saying that like they're essentially I mean I don't know how else to put it like

I'm not calling them savages because obviously the Harkinans are as savage as anyone. I think what you're pointing at also is just like Dune is shot from the white gaze. It's written from the white gaze, and it is definitely shot from it. And that's how, you know,

Denny can basically exploit our feelings about a Timothy Chalabay. There's a reason Timothy Chalame is cast in this role in terms of like what he means to our culture, what actors and men like him look like, and generally what they make us feel when we see them on screen. But my question then is, Van is like we're going to talk about this with Shogun. We run into this a lot whether it is, you know, Black Panther or Shang Chi, which is like both

of those characters were written by white men. And in the context of doing this in the modern age, can you update a concept that is cursed from the beginning? And what I mean by that is, you can, you can't, you think so. Yeah, you can do it. Okay, so the difference between, uh, Black Panther in his current incarnation and Black Panther in the 60s and the 70s

is Reginald Huntland, it's Tanya Hisa Coates. It's all of the black writers that have taken their spin at what a black Marvel superhero looks like. The fact that, you know, in the movie, they very tongue-in-cheek in a way. point at

make fun of colonizers. The fact that the character of killmonger was changed to a degree to represent a counter-narrative of black liberation that it forces the audience to come to terms with. The question of Black Panther movie, specifically 2018,

is which road to freedom do you want to take? do you want to take liberation or conquest? Like that's, excuse me, cooperation or conquest. That's the question that the movie asks. And that question is- But if I push back on you, though, if I push, like, here's the thing, I love Black Panther. And I'll still be like, all right,

this is a character created by a white man that is run by one of the biggest white corporations in history. So the narrative can only end. a couple ways, and it has to basically end with a character like killmonger, who has a lot of points, even if he gets there in less than ideal circumstances. Like, he's never going to be the winner of that narrative. You know what I mean?

It's going to go down smooth. The message of Black Panther is going to go down smooth because the message of the MCU is tied to, like, the military industrial complex, what we believe in ourselves, Captain America being the center of kind of this work. world where I'm just like, these are limitations that all of these things have. And sometimes even as a viewer, I have to be like, I have to enjoy Black Panther or Captain America, the winter soldier as entertainment. And just kind of leave the, leave the reality that I'm like, I'm not going to get my militancy and my, my revolutionary tactics from a fucking sci-fi movie.

That's supposed to make a billion dollars. I'm just, like, it's just, you're not. So, so this is why I'll tell you. And the reason why that makes sense is because not very many people believe in revolution. People think that revolutions were something that happened a long time ago. And now what we need to do is figure out a better way to cooperate. So they don't look at universal health care as a revolutionary idea. It is. They don't look at universal basic income as a revolutionary idea. It is. All of those things. they don't look at a lot of them don't look at gay rights, trans rights, total reproductive freedom

as revolutionary ideas. Well, they are. They are. Even if, like, those are all ideas that push upon the comfortability of many different systems. And when you push on the comfortability of a system and you seek to change it,

that in and of itself is a revolution. So most of those movies are going to lean towards cooperation, which there always should be. Because if we think about Kilmonger and his character, I think Kilmonger, I don't think that, that Kilmonger, in a sense, still won the movie because I do not think that Tachala reassesses his role in the world without Kilmonger.

I mean, well, it took a violent act. Like, it took a match violent act. for Tchalah to even be pushed that far to do what he has. I know, I know, but we know damn well that the world is in a worse off place if Kilmonger is in control of Wakanda. And that's because, not because he's black, but it's because of the pain and trauma. I mean, he's a sociopath.

He's a sociopath, right, but he's a sociopath because, you know, he watches his fucking dad got killed by his brother. He goes up there, what the fuck? Like the whole, you know what I mean? Like, there's reasons. why it happens. So I'm saying all of this stuff. There's a cultural lens, a little bit back to doing too, there's a cultural lens that we look through

all of this stuff, that we look at all of this stuff through. And sometimes we can't remove ourselves from that. So when I look even at Paul, like, and I'm talking specifically about the feminine people. You guys, granted, the galaxy's fucked. Paul

is not great. I mean, the galaxy was fucked before this. That's also what I want to stress. Where it's like, people are like, you know what? Paul is going to become space Hitler. I'm like, okay, so he's going to replace the other space Hitler? Like, we've got to have to be like, I don't know. Well, look.

Well, look. And so, once again, if the Atreides family would have come to power through Lato Atreides, that perhaps all of this would have been done in a less violent, less destabilizing, more palatable way. So I get all of that. But what I'm saying, if you are. Fremman. Because remember, Paul stood up in front of a whole Fremant and he said, none of you guys can fuck with me.

And none of you guys can fuck with me. And they all pulled out their knives. I want you guys to think not about how we should think. I want you guys to think about what actually happened in the movie. Paul stood up in front of all the Fremant and he said, none of y'all can fuck with me. None of y'all. And because that's such an affront to their culture, they all pulled out their knives. Everyone said, what the fuck you're talking about?

And you know what he did? He read all of them motherfuckers. He was like, your granny had a fucked up eye and blah, blah, blah, blah. You is this and you is that. And they bent the knee to him. At that moment,

what happens to them? They did. They, like, they bent the need to him. That's one of the calls. oldest scenes I've ever seen. And what happens to them after that moment is in Paul's hands. And what happens to them is they drive their oppressors out. So I don't understand what I'm posed to get from it.

It might be to their detriment at some point, but you can't tell me that, like, I would love to talk more, because I get that people are annoyed with this conversation, but you can't tell me that they don't feel better about their place on Iraqis. they are entrenched in this war. That is true. But for the first time and a long time, the Fremman led by somebody who they've adopted as a Fremant with a Fremant name, a part of Fremman culture, even if he is adopted, they run their planet. And they never ran it for 100 years, for 200 years, for however long, because I know it was the Harkinus that were in

charge of it for 100 years, but it's been longer than that. They haven't run it. He liberated them. So hi, he ain't a savior. He's their savior for sure. I mean, this is the last thing I'll kind of say is, like, I do think there needs to be space because I've just noticed this, especially because we just don't get these movies as much anymore. Is there needs to be space for like a film can have good intentions. A film can have quote unquote good politics and we can still interrogate how well it to live. delivers the message.

Like, I remember when Oppenheimer came out. People were, like, how could people want more of the Japanese perspective? That's not what Christopher Nolan did. And I'm just like, yo, it is completely fine if somebody goes and watches Oppenheimer and is like, yo, I think it's a little bit fucked up how we never actually see how this affected the Japanese. Like, that is a completely fine critical stance to. Yeah, you mean the people who got their skin burned off? But yeah, it might be kind of cool.

We have to have those conversations. Like, it's fine. Like, it does not make the, we can still call, I could still call Oppenheimer a top tier movie and have questions about the artistic intent behind it. Barbie is the same way. Barbie did so much for feminism. And still, I read a lot of very smart feminist critics who are just like, hey, here are the issues I have with this movie.

And I'm just like, no, that's what makes our art better by interrogating how well it delivers the message. It's not like, hey, the Dune Part 2 slop, we need to just take it all in. I'm like, no, it's a fucking great movie. But also, hey, like, it can have some white savior undertones that you're like, hey, we should talk about this. Like, that's where I am. My final question is this.

And this is what I'll say, we move on. And I really do appreciate the patience of the audience because everybody, you know what I'm doing later? I'm in Austin. I could be going to the yellow rose. Look it up. I'm not going there, though. I could be doing all kinds of things.

You know what I'm doing later on in Austin? I'm going to see Dune 2 again in IMAX. Oh, my gosh. He's going to drink a Sasparela. A sasperola. This will be the fourth time I've seen the movie. You guys, this will be the fourth time I've seen the movie. You hit in Alamo to watch it?

I got to, no, they don't have it. They don't have it in IMAX there, I don't think. I got to find, they got a big IMAX screen here somewhere. I got to find where it's at. I'm going to go there and see it. I asked the lady, I asked the concierge. Daddy. Let me tell you what I did.

Because, you know, I never used the concierge when I go to a hotel. I asked the concierge to look for me some movie tickets. And the concierge was like, get right on that, Mr. Lathan. I was like, oh, oh, boss, big daddy. It doesn't make you feel like the man. Okay, okay, okay, okay. So, so, so this is the last thing I say. I want everybody to think about this.

Would it be possible for Van to write a feminist movie? Probably not. No. I could make a movie that I thought, like when I have a movie and I'm writing female characters, I bring in a lady. If there's a, like, I'm bringing a lady to workshop. I bring in a lady. I work with a lady.

I know some of the most, I have to basically let women write women. Because my view of women is from outside of them. Whenever, whenever, and I'm talking about there's some great movies out there. but whenever a white guy writes and directs black characters in black movies, I can always tell.

I'm just being honest with you. I mean, I can tell as well. I can always tell. I can always tell. And there's some great examples of movies that are fantastic. The color purple, which is directed by Steven Spielberg.

I don't think he's a writer on that. But even the Woman King, which was a great movie written by someone, I can tell. I mean, I can tell. When you watch the Sopranos and a black character shows up, you're like, all right, man. Like, it's tall.

And it's sometimes, all right. And so, and the only thing that I'm trying to say there, the only thing I'm trying to say there is the movie being as well executed as it is just might have not demonstrated this part as well as it needed to. and that's okay. And to be honest with you, the discourse is good because it'll make even the third installment. It didn't turn off my enjoyment for the film one goddamn bit. I was happy when the Frimming won. I was happy.

All I'm saying is a white boy being adopted, adopted into an indigenous culture and then leading that culture out of the slogs, where they've been to ruling something, seen it before. That's, and that's, and that's, and,

and, and, and, and, and, and, that's, that's, that's, that's, I loved the movie.

I loved Dune. I thought this, this, this, this was good to have a, a deeper conversation about it. But it's Duni McGuni over here,

baby Lizan Al Jomi. Like, I'm, like, like, like, like, like,

like, like, and I hope that this actually, I hope that this actually, actually sparks some some debate, some good faith debate amongst our fans whom we love about

our perspectives on the movie. And nobody telling y'all, fuck y'all. We're just saying, hey, this was the baddest nigga with a knife that they had ever seen. It is also, we are getting to a point, I just got to be real. Mollfuckers was given this movie, we gave this

movie a 12, what a 12 to 11th and a 10 like we love this movie guys like relax like just we like the movie but but Charles we kept saying going going north instead of going south so we did understand we do need to be better about stuff like that I saw the movie once

those are two very different those are two very different directions north is north and south south I didn't catch it one to support your gut health Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual.

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wraps hit different order now at order dot sweetgreen dot com showgun charles take it away all right so in honor of shogun not going to do a midnight manifest i'm instead going to do things you need to know because there's a lot you need to know about this show. All right. So can you roll the music, Steve? All right. So Shogun is a 10-episode series based on the 1975 best-selling James Clavel novel. It's based on a real historical debut, a dispute in the 17th century and the founding of

the Tokugawa Shogunate. Names are obviously changed, but the white protagonist John Blackthorn is actually based on William Adams, the first Englishman to arrive in Japan. The fictional account follows Lord Yoshitouanaga trying to outmanueuvre the Council of Regents, a group put together by the deceased Tycho to lead Japan until his son is of age to take over. After the success of the 1977 Roots miniseries, historical miniseries were all the rage. Shogun was a part of this. It had a 1980 NBC miniseries of the same name, starring Richard Chamberlain, Toshiramafuni, and Yoko Shemada.

FX's version was stuck in development for years, but this update is held by Rachel Kondo and Justin Marks and stars Kirouki Sanada as Lord Yoshituranga. Kirouki Sonata already actually played the historical equivalent to Tornaga before well-worn territory. Two interesting things before I wrap. Guys, you know that now, Shogun has officially passed the bear as the most popular show, like basically the most popular debut show. Interesting. That is like Hulu and isn't Marvel Star Wars Pixar National Geo.

I was like, God damn, it got something like 9 million. streams globally. The reason why we wanted to touch on this, or at least I definitely wanted to touch on this very, I was blown away by the series, honestly. I think it gave me the same feeling. I know a lot of people are doing the comps of like, oh, this is Game of Thrones, this Game of Thrones.

But this gave me the feeling like of an Andor of like, oh, we can do big sweeping historical fantasy where the world feels lived in. it's not the fights of the show. It's not the action. It's not the sex of the show that I think is the draw for me. I think it's the fact that like everything in it feels considered and real. The costumes, the lighting, the mood, the aesthetics. I think it's just, to me, it's like the reason I wanted to pair it with Doom Part 2 is it's interesting that we're now getting to this place in Hollywood where IP, IP, I P, Shogun, even though it's not, on the level of Dune is still IP. And you see this story

that is also a white savior narrative. I was watching the commercial for the original NBC Shogun. And the first thing you see is this white dude and you have the narrator being like, this is the story of John Blackthorn and how he is the reason that

Japan was saved. And it's so interesting seeing these new creators have to kind of deal with the legacy of a white savior narrative. and that is actually what I think is interesting about the show is like, can you make something worthwhile and different? If you're like, actually the most interesting part of this television series

is not Blackthorn. It is, it is, um, this basically this guy, this, um, what's his name? Toriaga. Huh? Yeah, Yoshi Tornaaga. Yeah, Tornaaga. Tornaaga is the interesting crux of this. His power play.

So this is, this is. isn't to me shot in the white gaze of, oh, this is a white person arriving on these shores to teach all of these Japanese people how to lead and how to win. This is about the courtroom drama of this man trying to save what is important to him personally and to the nation. And I was like, I don't know if they're going to completely pull it off, but at least within the first three episodes and just like, they're fucking cooking with something and they're trying. And that's what is so interesting to me about it. What about you, Van?

So I didn't know any of this stuff. I had never heard of it. Didn't know that it was a real story. Didn't know all of that. What got me into the show, I got into the show because of the old-fashioned, this is good. And nothing matters as much, guys,

as just the old-fashioned, this is good. This is a good show, guys. Like, this show works. I heard that from everyone. And I checked it out. And it takes literally about a minute and 30 seconds to realize that the production value of the show, the direction of the show, the performances in the show, the premise of the show are revelatory. That this is high-level prestige television. So everything that Charles said is very true.

appreciate that the show centers the characters that created one of the most civilized or one of the most technologically advanced societies gorgeous in history so you know I'm glad

that we're over the idea that um uh rest in civilization was so much further than everybody else um so I appreciate that. But the thing I most appreciate about Shogun is that it's just insanely well done. It's insanely well crafted. The intrigue

that follows almost every decision that's made the world building, I get to, I feel like I'm back in West Roes. I get to learn about the machinations. I get to learn about feudal Japan. I get to learn about how you get ahead. I get to learn about how the Portuguese were influenced. the politics and the religion and things are going on.

The minute that she pulls out across, I'm like, oh, my gosh, she's Christian. The whole Christian subplot of just like, you're learning something new of being like, like you hear about missionaries in history class, but to be like, oh, no, there were Christians in Japan, but of course, not all Christians were the same. There's Catholics, there's Protestants. I'm like, it gives you that feeling of like, oh, I'm learning something watching this and a way of living that you just don't get on most TV shows

it was fucking electric Jomi it's a fantastic show for all the things you guys mentioned I didn't know what to expect going in like Van I was not familiar with the source material but reading

about how this was made and how Hirooki Sonata the guy who plays Yoshi Tornaga like how he would make like they've been trying to make this happens is like 2018.

Yeah, it was over a decade. Like, it's been forever. And he's like, look, like, I think like an actual quote, if something's incorrect, people cannot focus on the drama. They don't want to see that show. We needed it to be authentic. And I think they 100% get that right.

Like from the opening, opening scene when they're on the boat, and you get to Japan, like the entire, the sets, the vision, everything. is feels so real and it feels like you're there and so when you're with the characters

they barely speak English in the show half like brief like half the show is subtitles and for the most part a lot of people that would be like I'm not reading when I'm watching TV I'm out bruh I'm locked in I'm mad when it's not about the Japanese people

when it's about like you know what I'm saying I'm like get the motherfuckies out of here I'm genuinely impressed at how often there is Japanese speaking in the show because there are so many like filmmaking conceits that we see for like non-English speaking countries or people to just be speaking English. And we'll suspend our disbelief to have it. Yeah. But instead, it's like 80, 90% Japanese fluent speaking.

And the rest is like English, but like that's when they're cheating and like they're actually speaking Portuguese. But they're just speaking English for our sake. But that was like that that's like the like interesting like cheating not cheat that this show is indicative of to make you even more immersed in this world. It's absolutely incredible. And I love that. And the acting is spectacular. Like again, Hirokia Sanada, one of my guys. Love to see him.

Oh, so he is, this is this is the performance of a lifetime. He need to get an award and the bro who plays Rodriguez needs to get award because here's the thing. I'm watching the show. I'm like, I know this guy. Like, I've seen him before, but I can't place him. Turns out, it's the dude from the Dark Night. It's the Mayor from the Dark Night. Oh, really?

Yeah. He's the Portuguese guy, yeah. He's in his bag, bro. He's in his bag. You know how the mayor has a strangely big role in both movies? Like, they give the mayor a hole in the Dark Night for no reason. give the mayor a whole monologue. And I'm like, what the fuck is this motherfucker?

Like, why is this oddly good-looking guy? Like, you hear me? Like, they, he's like, basically not even, he just gives him a whole crowd. They're gonna come for you. There's that. It will be every single time I rewatch it. I'm like, why was made so much job?

I don't know. I mean, the mayor, they push it. I fuck with him. The mayor, they push in. They give him a whole little spiel, a whole little thing, and he dies and rises. I can only, I, I, I, I, the only reason, and I'm not sad to say this.

I'm really proud of this. But I didn't even recognize him with the Dark Night Riders. I just knew you guys would. I recognized him. He was on site for like two episodes. I was like, I know that dude. I was locked in. No, but the acting is good.

The riding is good. It's just of all the like Game of Thrones clones that have come out ever since that show first aired. But like this is the best one that like actually recaptures the feeling and why we like Game of Thrones in the first place. The show is incredible. So a couple of things. Number one, the subtitles of the show, they work really intently for the show because it makes you lock in on everything. You can't skip a scene because you have to read what's on the screen.

And me and Kalika talked about it. It's a decision that really works. And to that, I want you guys to give me props and thank me. And I would say that it's the older captions on all the time. that have made stuff like this possible. Captions have been destigmatized in television watching. That's because of guys like me. That's because you come over.

The only time you don't see the captions on the TV is sports. And I might still leave them on. Okay. So, Van, the biggest original advocate for subs, not dubs. Like, I leave the captions off for everything. Captions on all the time. There's a caption household. The old, old motherfuckers didn't create fucking captions.

I just saw one of those fake-ass, like IG. The older generation. Graphs that were like 95% of millennials watch TV with the captions on now. But that's because they're, that's because they're, we made that. I like that our generation. You built it.

We turned, we turned the captions on. None of us. Nobody was here before us. We turned, we turned the captions on. We did that. We turned the captions zone. Not people. Not a generation of people who

watched anime growing up and then we're like, yo, maybe we just keep these things on. The caption all. And niggas are watching that type of shit. All right. So look. Number two, this. Okay, so there's something else

that we have to remember here. There's an intensely compelling story here. There's so much wonder and so much intrigue. They land. They've got fucking scurvy. They're emaciated. They don't.

Like, there's a clash of, of cultures, which is inherently interesting. There's Blackthorn who is a character that believes in the destiny of when he's going to die, what he's supposed to do. He's incredibly loyal to his men. He hates the port. A very interesting character, one that you can see actually using his guile to get out of the situation that he is, a situation that seems hopeless in a land where you don't

speak the language in a land where you don't understand. understand the customs where you're thrust into the middle of this like, uh, seemingly really entrenched power war between these different feudal factions. Something happens in the first episode that sets the tone for how serious this entire world is. When there, uh, when Toriaga is at the place, right? Like, I don't want to say his name wrong.

What's his name? Tornaaga, Tornaaga. Tornaga, when he first presents himself to the other lords, and one of his contingent speaks out of turn. And then the guy goes, I'll end my line right now. Oh, man. And I'm like, in his line, okay, so he's going,

and then you realize that in order to do that, he has to kill himself and his infant son. And he is so adamant about doing it. You like right away, little things like that, plot devices like that, like, God damn, this world is a serious one where consequences are serious, where they are dire and people take their way of life seriously. When you watch the scene where that woman has to give up her son to be murdered for nothing. But Mariko talking to the mother and basically talking her through the most. the most challenging and nightmares. Not a challenging.

Impossible. But here's the thing. The acting that is just happening in that moment is just like, oh, we don't get shit like that. And you're learning about the world because to your point, like, I watch a lot of samurai fucking movies, watch a lot of, like, in all the shit. I know way more about this world than I should. And I still was caught off guard when it was like, they ain't grabbing the baby. Oh, shit.

They grabbing the. Like, and then. in the third episode, when she is presented with these two small boxes that are the father and the, I was like, dog. Yeah. I mean, so much in the, so much, I mean, so we get into the world and we realize that Toranaaga, who I would say is the protagonist of this, I would say. And I think that's the, that is one of the bigger changes is making him the number one all the,

on the call sheet. and then making Blackthorn the second. Continue. So he's in this impossible situation, obviously where he will be impeached by the other lords. The regents, yeah. He's served himself up for this. Because he's gone to the castle,

which everyone told him not to do. And now he has a figure of way out of it. And Blackthorn actually becomes a cog in his wheel, or way for him to play the religious, social, and political circumstances of Osaka against each other so that he can live. And you see people that want more power. You see people want more agency. You see him trying to figure out a way out of the situation that he's in,

and he sees the ability to do that through Blackthorn. And you also see, you know, even in the diving scene, that scene, I love great scenes, man. As much as I love fighting and the scene where the assassin comes in and tries to kill everyone, as much as I love that, I love great scenes. The scene between Blackthorn and Tornaga, where he is making him dive over and over again so he learns how to dive, that shows you the difference in power between those two men. And it also shows you what Blackthorn is willing to do to get closer to him.

it shows you how he learns and it shows you how these guys are going to become tight or work together dive, keep diving until I learn how to do it I don't need you to show me like and show me how to swim or show me I just need to watch you do it enough times

but rather than just watch you do it enough times over the course of two months I'm powerful enough to make you dive right now until I get it and then once you're a little tucked out race me to the shore Just little stuff like that that really

like it is exemplary of the differences between characters, how they react to one another, Tornaga and the Sun, all of that stuff. Like the show is just very rich and very deep. You don't have to have big, huge battles,

people with power, all of that stuff. Like it's the small scenes that make the show so big. I love the show. I love it. I mean, the thing that I also think is so,

like you don't realize you don't see it enough until you watch something like Shogun where when Blackthorn is introduced, this is a white character being introduced as essentially the barbarian. Usually how these stories go is it's the white person coming to the land and being like, all of your customs are weird. And instead of that, we get the opposite. We get, oh, no, Blackthorn is coming into their world. and they're like, you stink, go bathe.

They're like looking at him, like, why is he eating like a fucking animal? Why doesn't he have manners? And I'm just like, oh, that is like, that is the smartest way to update source material that needs updating. And it's kind of like the thing that I think, if I was searching for anything in Dune part one or two,

is that I need to care about the people more than I care about the white savior. I need to know more about their world. They need to be fleshed out and they cannot be lesser. Because when I'm watching this updated version of Shogun, I'm just like, oh, this is a barbarian coming into their world who needs to learn how to be civilized in their way, not the other way around. And that's actually why I think it works. Now, can they land that in the other seven episodes? I really, really hope so.

But what gave me a lot of like, okay, I trust them is that Blackthorn never actually seemed like the hero of the narrative. He seemed like somebody who needed to get something accomplished. But I'm still looking at Sonata, playing Yoshi. And I'm just like, no, this is the guy who's fighting for something that I care about and believe in. Blackthorn is essentially just kind of like there along for the ride. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, all right.

Where we are right now, episode, because the first three episodes is basically what we're talking about, where do we see the show going? Have you spoiled it for yourself, Charles? I can't, because here's the thing. A lot of it is wrapped up in history, and once I started around, I was like, all right, so I'm going to pass Joe Me, Steve.

I don't want to spoil anything. I'm excited, man. Like, the show does a thing in episode three where we talk about Mariko's husband, and you can tell shit I didn't like that dude, but when he saves us when he risked his life and like you know dies to let everybody else

got on the boats I'm like oh so this is what we doing right here we everybody everybody can get it yeah was blackthorn dirty mac in a little bit oh brother it's happening dog it's it's that was the white savior of the whole thing right I'm like I know the husband's an asshole

like I wasn't sad to see him go but Blackthorn saw Mariko and he was plot and he was just like that's your husband? Listen. Damn, he ain't treating you right. I don't condone the behavior, but I understand. I see the vision.

I see the vision. Hey, look. No, but the show is, again, capable of taking a character like, like Bushito, you're like, you know, I don't really mess with this guy, all that much. And when he dies, you're like, dang, that was tough.

Respect out to Bashido. And so, ultimately, if the show keeps giving us moments like that, the boat race, never in a million years that I thought, not us they're gonna like go across the water that's not interesting but like seeing him like uh the like pilot the ship man oh yeah and when his Portuguese homie was just like all right I'm gonna pay you back for that I was like all right we cook it bro I was like if the show can keep giving me that I'm not really like the plot is gonna plot do what they got to do I'm sure at some point sonata is gonna

his character is going to be at the top of the, of the lords, and he's going to be in charge, whatever, regardless, the show keeps giving me moments like that where I'm so locked in. I'm not even thinking about anything else except what's happening on my screen.

Then, yeah, I will be there no matter what. So, essentially, I don't know very much about the systems and fuel to Japan, but when they say, they need a Shogun back, what they essentially mean is that they need the consolidation of power. Is a Shogun not a military? Let me see what it is.

It's effectively like a governor. Yeah. Like a military dictator because right now there is a council of guys that made these decisions together that vote. But there is, I guess, too much animus between them. and too many personal and political differences between them for them to do things in a way that's in the best interest of everyone. So I guess when they're talking about what we're leading to is the question about whether or not there needs to be one central person in power here,

which is also a very interesting thing in and of itself because if the show is going to lead us to answering this question about whether or not it's better off if one guy runs things, then what it would also then have to do, what it would then also have to do is

qualify the guy. See what I'm saying? So what it would have to do then, you're going to learn so it would have to qualify and disqualify everybody else. That's also a Game of Thrones thing, right? Because throughout the history of Game of Thrones, what you see is that we're asking questions about which character should win.

Who's going to win? What is there to win? And throughout the course of the show, the actual narrative is about showing you enough about these characters so that you're actually eliminating whether or not they should lead. And that is such an intensely fantastic way to tell the story of one character. because think about the things you need to know about a leader.

You need to know whether or not they're smart, whether or not they're compassionate, whether or not they're empathetic, how much trauma they have, where they're going to lead with. That's an incredible way to like interrogate a character whether or not somebody should be the central leader of all of these people,

whether or not people will be better off if you have power. So when I think about, oh, we need to have a Shogun, we need to bring back one guy, I think about how much we're going to learn about the individual characters based upon the question that's being asked. This is like a lot. There's a lot there. Don't even forget

the most interesting thing that I think we, I think it was revealed in episode three. Is Toranaaga, his father sent him away as a child essentially to be a hostage for another lord. And Mariko was basically

explained to Blackthorn. She's like, that's where he essentially learned, which I think is the theme of this entire show. that you don't have, there's no friends in this world. All you have are enemies. Enemies are everywhere. Friends are nowhere. Yeah.

Yeah. And then you see when his lord dies, Toranauga was supposed to be the leader. He like, essentially, but his wisdom was like, if I become the leader, Japan is going to be broken up.

It's just going to be a war. That's why we're going to install these five lords. And I think it's kind of like a genius thing to your point, Van, where it's like, this is what historic, like this type of kind of, kind of like historical fantasy is always about is like this guy who was supposed to be in charge

essentially turns away the power and what is the story going to reveal about his wisdom and who he is as a person that makes him the only right choice to essentially like lead these people at this time. And I think that's the thing like I think we've all been circling around is like people forgot about Game of Thrones. The central question of Game of Thrones that was so interesting is what What makes Danny or John or any of these people the rightful leader? What is it about everything that they're doing in episode after episode, season after season, that is adding to the mystery of, can I see this person leading? Will they be a good leader?

Will they be a bad leader? If somebody has to win, why should it be you? Why should it be you? And what does that say about the world and the society that it is you? And that's what I think Shogun gets where it's like, it's not the fight scenes or the sex that is like, oh, I want to keep watching. It's like, what's Toranauga going to do this week to convince me that he's the rightful person that should be taking over this whole shit?

I just, I love this show. I can't say, speak highly enough. There hasn't been that much sex in the show, though. There's been some sex. Well, there's been, I want to ask you, this is very important. Can you guys guess what character with a big penis was edited out of this? The fuck? What big,

What character with a big penis was edited out of what? What are you talking about? So this is from the book. Shout out to Decider. They asked this question. This is from a chapter in the book, quote. Then he had become erect. As much as he tried to stop it from happening, the worse it became.

At least he thought so, but the women did not. Their eyes became bigger and began to bless. Jesus, Lord God, the one and only. I can't be blushing. But he was, and this seemed to increase. his size and the old woman clapped her hands and wonder. It said something to which they all nodded. And she shook her head and said something else to which they nodded even more.

So, bro, you'd have caught corporal. What are you doing? So what is happening here? Basically, Blackthorred, who was the white guy in this in the book, it is like a subplot that he has like a huge penis and it is very incensitantity. I thought we were just going to talk about how good the show. Why did you? We are.

What did you? What did you? and I was doing research for it and they're like, yeah, we can't, we can't do that given the white man a bikinis in 2020. They had to cut a lot out of the book for the show and they were like, hey man.

Yeah, maybe we cut this. So here's the thing. I think this is wrong. Do you think this is wrong? Wow. If I have the biggest dick on the block, I want to be remembered for it. Whoa, it was fictional.

This is a fictional character. based on a real character. It is not historical account that the real white boy had a huge dog. Oh, so it's not historic that the actual white guy had the biggest dick in the world. No, no, no. The author just made that up for his fictional character because... See what the fuck I'm talking about? See what I'm talking about?

This is the white same of shit. Right, this is what I'm talking about. So you need to tell me. Hold on, in a minute. Oh, my God, man. Now, y'all want us to just have no reservations on the shit when they were like, Okay, white guy comes to England, true. White guy, first guy comes to Japan, true, all true,

has the biggest fucking dick that the motherfucker that Osaka has ever seen. How are we supposed to actually go into these things with good faith? When it's shit like that that's happening, bro. Oh. Like, you know what I'm saying? If he wrote out of the epics one, they wrote it out. If this was really like fucking John Holmes, like, lands, on, y'all don't even know that reference.

If this was really John Holmes lands on on fucking Japan and does all of this stuff, that's, first of all, that's a completely different movie. And that's one that I will watch. Actually, hey, I'll be honest with you. No, I'm saying, be honest with you, that could be the brazzers spin off of this. Oh, my.

They could take it back to the actual one. We could get Asa Akira. We could get Claire Trinity. That's what I like. See, you know what? By the way, you guys, the thing. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm not ashamed. I know as much

as everybody wants me to be ashamed. I'm not. Honestly, whenever you're going to do the four-star draft on higher learning, then I'll do- I'm not-a- I'm not ashamed, guys. I'm not ashamed. Why are y'all ashamed? What's the shame? Why is there so much shame?

I would love to talk about Shogun and how great-the-show is. I didn't know this about Shogun, but that is funny. So, like, they just that is funny. I wonder when that guy, when they cut that out, like the first thing we gotta do, we gotta take the big dick thing out of here. Guys, you cool with that? We don't need this.

And there's probably one white guy at the end of the table going, I might have been Cosmo Jarvis. Cosmo Jarvis. I'll take the role, but this big dick thing, you gotta lead this in there. Like, we need this to like, nah, bro, can't do it. Guys, you wash up in 17th century

Japan. Here we go. Well, we're dying, first and the foremost, they're not hearing me. You get sliced up in an assassination plot. The doctor is just like, you know what would, what would, uh, heal you? Some nice pillow time. Are you accepting the pillow time? Or like Blackthorn, are you being like, no, I don't want it. I don't know, man. I think it's a no for me. Again, I got, I guys, I got eyes on a bigger, better thing. You know what I'm saying? I see, man going to go. I see Merle go right there. Well, wait, when you see pillow time, you mean, I mean, you guys are liars.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'll be like, hell yeah. Lying. No, no, no. See, because, you know, you know what I mean? Like, she's gonna look at you differently.

Like, oh, he was out there with that other girl. No, because she says in the episode, she's just like, in this culture, like, we realize, like, sometimes you need pillow time. That's sometimes just what you need to get laid. You're right. It is a different time. But at the same time, I'm trying to be like,

nah, girl, I only got eyes for you. Y'all are such fucking liars, bro. First Steve was like Sidney Sweeney ain't all that Now you like too come on bro Y'all be fucking liars Steve you don't love Sidney Sweeney I said I'm Sidney Sweeney neutral

Okay what does that mean? I feel neither good nor bad What do you think that gains you when you say stuff like that Because we know it's a lot Absolutely nothing Sydney Sweeney gains me nothing Yeah you're but you know what you I guess you could like a lot of people are now

Zagging now I think it's kind of stupid I'm not here to Zag I'm just Like a lot of people Zach, you know, Zach, you don't like her. You don't like her. I don't know how me saying this makes me a liar. Do you think Sidney

is a plot by the CIA? Something's wrong. Something's going on. You know? Because like here's the thing. Fat asses had a good, like, 20-year run. You know what I'm saying? Do you think?

But she doesn't have, but it's not. But to me, she, all I call like Sidney-Sweeney, that's just chest booty right there. That's just booty in a different form. I'm going to play this. Bye. Explain, man. Please don't.

I don't know. I need an explanation. This gone man to talk. Bro, I just be honest with you. Bro, sometimes breast or breasts. Play it. This is me appreciating women. This is me appreciating women.

A friend. What? Sometimes. Saying this is me appreciating woman over this drop? It's insane. I thought, I thought this for a long time. I used to tell because sometimes there would be girls back in high school. And in college.

they would be like, you know, I got, you know, they were talking, be like, I got great breasts, but I ain't got no, no, no ass. And I'd be like, girl, that ain't nothing but some chest booty. I said, some chest booty. They shake, you know, like, like, you know what I'm saying? Titty twerk that. Like, there's some chest booty. She's like, that's, that, like, that's, that, like, when they're that nice. I'm exhausted right now. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just saying, you know what, you know what? Because you guys haven't taken the term. I'm with a bit. Like, you guys are prudes, bro. Because you guys haven't taken the time to really appreciate women and different forms that they come in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a real ally, man. You're a real ally. Sometimes it's chest booty. Sometimes it's about her eyes or smile,

her heart and her mind. But Sidney's got great A chest booty. And so what I would say, because I think about it, when you see it, it gives you, when you think about it, when you see it, when you see it, it gives you that same feeling. You know what I'm saying?

It gives you that same feeling is right there. Jesus Christ. That good old feeling because, you know, like we're being honest, ass, ass. gives you a different feeling than breast do sometimes because, you know, it's down there.

What I'm hearing, what I'm hearing is Sidney's a white savior is basically what it is. That's not what I said. I never said that. Steve, there's plenty of black women that had crazy plenty of, like Pam Greer grade A

amazing chest booty. Don't see that's that's Jim, Pam Greer. Listeners, you should have seen like, hold on, Van Rear, 1970,

Like, Pam Greer in 1973 is the finest fucking thing. Like, Pam Greer, like, ridiculous chest booty. Like, ridiculous. It's amazing. Shout out to the women of this. Society, we had never seen, like, technology like that. That was like a, that was like taking spice for the first time and being like, I can see for it. Time and space.

Tim Greer, different. I remember my, my dad. So, so look, so check it out. Real quick. So the, the black star. channel came on so they had this channel and it was called Is this Stars with a Z?

Jesus fucking Christ Steve. You gotta play the drums, bro. You gotta play the drums, bro. You gotta play the drums. I'll take that. You gotta play the drums. Play the drums, Steve.

Yeah, play the drums. Okay. But yeah, by the way, to his point, it is Stars with the Z. That's what the name is. It's not because it was black, but because they named it Stars with a Z.

Stars has Z on the end of it. But so Stars came out with these little vertical channels, and they have Black Stars. Now, they might still have it. I haven't seen it, but they might still have the Black Star Channel. But here's what the Black Star Channel

would do, especially in its inception. There weren't enough black movies, really? So literally, the Black Stars Channel would play the same four black movies for one week straight. So for one week straight, the same four movies would play.

This is so true. The same four movies would play on the Black Star channel. And I remember one of those movies, this was maybe like 95, 96, whatever this was, was coffee, Pam Greer's coffee. And I caught it. And I was looking at it. And I remember my dad had come inside. He was like, boy, I told you not to be watching this TV all day long. What the, and then he's seen the TV. He was like, is that coffee? And I'm like, yeah. He was like, hey, he took his head off, he sat down.

He took his head off, he sat down. You ever seen this before? And I'm like, no sir. He's like, boy, you about to see something. God damn! And I'm like, what? Because the only way that I had known Pam Greer was from this movie called like original gangsters that she had been in.

I had heard of Plam Grere, I heard of Fox Brown, but I'd never seen coffee. Me and my dad sat down and we watched coffee. We might have watched coffee four or five times that whole week. And that was the movie with a chest booty. was born. I seen the chest booty and I was like, there are different ways

to appreciate a woman. Appreciate a woman for all kinds of different ways. Appreciate a woman for what she brings to the table and all of that stuff. But even physically, it's not a cookie cutter.

It's not a one size for at all. Sometimes it's about ass. I was born into ass. I'm from Louisiana. I was born into it. Right? I'm like, fucking bane. Born into you guys.

I was molded by it. Okay? But sometimes it's not about that. You can't make a, all about ass. It's different ways. Sometimes it's about the chest booty. Sometimes you have to be, you have to open up your horizons. You have to expand them. Let's get bigger.

You know what I mean? You have to look at different ways to appreciate the woman. And I looked at it. When I see Sidney Sweeney, I see people understanding that white girls can have that chest booty, man. Pamela Anderson had that store-bought chest booty. She got her store-bought chest booty. Because sometimes the store-bought chest booty can come on. Pamela Anderson had that storeball chest booty, baby. It's great.

It's okay. Y'all, it's okay. Like, look, hey, I would never walk up to a woman and be like, yo, girl, you got that crazy chest booty. Never. Never. I would appreciate her for who she is. But later on, when I'm just looking, I'd be like,

man, that's a beautiful person. That's a beautiful chest booty person right there. Shout out to Sidney, shout out to the chest booty. I love ass. I'm an ass man. It's ass first. It's an ass world. don't sleep on the power of the chest booty.

And shout out to my chest booty ladies out there. That's all I would say. Shout out to you. Officially, Jomey Atradis, we found your fade. Because honestly, that was the midnight ethos. That right there. That right there is what the midnight boys are on this year. Okay?

Yep. Be careful. Be careful. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's Jomi. Jomi, Jomi, Jomi. Yes. Liza and Al Jami.

me. It's your year, bro. It's your year. You have to accept the chest booty, all right? What we're going to end up doing? This is what we're going to do. In June of this year, we're going to do a Midnight Boys episode called for the love of Jomey.

And it's going to be, we're going to bring ladies on. We might do this at the live show. We're going to bring ladies on. Wait, no, not like those YouTube videos where they just bring 20 women. Pop the balloons. All the

used to go here Probably We got to do this A live show We got to do this at a live show For the love of Jomi We got to Love Jomes

Love Jomes Love Jomes Love Jomes Can we turn this house into a Jome Can we turn this house Into a Jome? Hey real quick before we get out of here Because we know we

We've been here a minute We mentioned Van on Higher Learning earlier And Van we got to talk about it bro. You can't do the electric slide, man? No, it's not that I can't do it. It's that it makes me nervous. I have an anxiety disorder.

Okay. And getting in, I like to dance myself, getting into dances, like big choreographed dances. I don't like it. I don't like having to remember stuff. I agree so fucking much. You guys know this from doing this podcast. Everybody will plot it out, like, say this, say this. I'm like, let's just get on here and talk.

I don't like having to remember stuff. The moment I have to remember something. Like all these things where I have to go talk, all these speeches where I have to go talk. All this, they'll be like, hey, man, come talk about Dr. King. I never write a speech. If I write a speech,

I feel like I have to remember what I said and I'll get up there and freak the fuck out. So the electric slide to me, when everybody's doing it, I'm like, oh shit, what the fuck happens if I fucked up? That means I ain't black. So you know what? Y'all keep that shit.

Jomey? Don't try to shame me, nigga. You know what? Again, if I do get, man, Barry, bro. You know what I'm saying? Electric slide. We're going to do, we're not doing a while, but we're leaving that at the crib, you feel me? We might do a little cha-cha slide. We got to do cha-ch-ch-a-slide. You feel me? I need you up there with me, man. I can't have you sitting in the back of the corner. I'm not going to be in the back of the corner. Yeah.

Are you going to be embarrassed if your white bride can't do the electric slide, cha-cha-cha-slide? Yeah, I was just about to say. I was just about to say. So a couple things. We like, hold, hold, hold on, hold on. Wait, wait, I was. They'll do some choreo classes for sure. Not even choreo classes. Charles read my mind. Like, we are not going to have to do the electric slide at your wedding. What are you talking?

First and foremost. We've been doing the first and foremost. We've been hanging out a lot, Jomey. I've been seeing the girls. What are you talking about? And so you're lying. There's been a deficit of sisters. There has been a deficit of sisters.

We're going to be doing the polka, the chicken days. The Charleston. Macarena. The Charleston, the fucking that move, Russian dance. They do when they dip down low and they kick their legs out. Joey, that is, I didn't want to love your spot, but it's just like, I've been seeing, you know, which joints, which joints get you excited. And it's just, first and foremost, you know, that's not true. You're making that up, right?

It's the thing, you know, you go to, you go to parties before you go to, you go to weddings, you know, with your significant other before, you know, your wedding. And you see what it, you see what it look like. Like, all right, cool. I mean, you go to a club or something, you know what I'm saying? Wait, are you testing your white wife to see how well she can dance? again again you keep putting the white in front of it you ain't got to do all that as to the milk the milkman allegations have gone too far i think i'm taking this moment to be like listen listen and y'all y'all went crazy on the reddit because i wrote a they asked for a dude to exit survey i was like yeah man uh i thought uh prince's uh really or whatever

florence puce character's name is thought her fit was cool you had the chain mail on whatever if i even like Manchin a white woman is like milk, milk merchant. It's too far. Steve, Steve, you know, Steve, you got to be real. Jomey's kind of out of control out here. You can't, you can't feed the narrative, Jomey. You got to think about the optics. I got to think about the optics at this point, you know what I'm saying?

I can't even, I can't even look in a white woman direction now without being like, ah, this dude, he, a milk merchant, you know what I'm saying? But ultimately, you know what it is when you get to, I get to the wedding part. Does she got rhythm? Can she, can she hit the cha-cha-cha slide? Can I, you know what I'm saying? Can she hit? What?

Can she hit? The cha-cha slot guys, come on. Can she hit? Get us the hell out of here. What kind of shit? What kind of shit can she hit him? Jomi. Jomi, should we call you, are you peg leg, Jomi?

Why? No. No credits, credits, credits. No. I want to get off. I want to get off the ride. Please get me off the ride. Let me.

Get out of you. See, I'm sorry. There's all. Okay. Bro, it's all okay. Let's go. You know what? It's all okay.

Whatever you're into. Whatever you're into, it's all okay. You know this is a lie because you see how they do a meek mail. So you're alleged. Jesus Christ, get us out of life. That's a wrap. That's a wrap. On Friday, the House of Our is throwing a doom mail bag.

Next Monday, Min Edition is having an X-Men draft in honor of X-Men 97. Our producer is Steve. the architect almond. Jomi, a dinner on social's hashtag drives his Nissan Al Jomey. I like that.

And additional production from Arjuna Ram Gapal. Charles, take us out. Jome is the most powerful midnight boy. Shout out to all the Fremant cuties.

Steve, stop hating on Sidney's Sweeney because it is the era of the chess foote. Chess booty. The third view in the Dune was the best one. Oh, guys, I didn't tell you all this.

Me and Otto, ooh, I did this on higher learning. Oh, yeah, I did. I heard this. Yeah. Me and Otto almost got in the fight in Dune. Yeah. Why? So wait, now, is this the Is Van Rung? Do you feel like you're wrong still? Let's do the Is Van Rang situation here. Okay, Is Van Rang, Midnight Edition?

Is Van Rang Midnight Edition before we get the show. Okay, so me, carry some of Otto's friends we all go to see Dune Jomey was supposed to come

Jummy didn't come if Jami would have been there it would have been more interesting Jome was supposed to come I had to be family man had to be family man

sorry and let me guys tell you something we saw Dune I demand that the Midnight Boys see every big movie

at the city walk IMAX with the goddamn gigantic fucking screen that's the 70 millimeter right it is fucking insane

Sane. 70 millimeter screen all the way the screen is fucking all. It was crazy watching Dune in there. It is nuts. I was in Iraqis.

I was Lizan al Fati. I was like I was in Iraqis. Okay. So we're in there. We're very excited. Everyone's seeing it, right?

We're sitting down. If you've seen the movie, it goes, spice is. power. So a lot of people think that's the beginning of the movie, but it's not because the Warner Brothers thing comes in after that. So we're jammed up after that happens because it was so loud in there.

So me and it, we're talking, whatever, whatever, like, blah, blah, blah. The movie has not started yet, right? And somebody behind us goes, stop talking. And I was like, I laughed because I thought, because we had just laughed at Nicole. I'm like, oh, shit. Like, Otto, his motherfucker at, Otto's looking, I'm like, Otto, he had to be joking.

Aught looks at me, he goes, he wasn't. And I'm like, Otto's pissed off. I look back at the guy, again, like, a little bit later. Big band smile on my face. Just to see, when I look, when I look back at him, he's got a scowl, like, he's like, and he's looking at me. He, like, ice grills me.

Damn. And I'm like, oh, I'm like, oh. So we're all watching the movie. We're having fun. We're being excited. So the movie's about the end. And I'm like, I look at Otto. I'm like, you good?

And I go, yeah, I'm going to be good, but I got to, I'm like, okay, cool, do your thing. So we get up. After the movie's going off, we're walking out of the thing. And Otto looks at the guy. He goes, yo, the movie hadn't even started yet. And you shifts me like a little fucking kid. And the guy goes, it was five minutes into the movie. That's a lie.

I see movies all the time. Okay? And I'm like, it's a lie. I'm like, nah, the movie hadn't started yet. First of all, like, we've grown men. Don't turn around and yell at us in front of all of these people. Whatever he was like, yeah, dude, like whatever, like whatever. And I was like, you know what?

I'm actually doing you a solid. I said, because what I could have done is I could have grabbed you by your hair and drug you up and down this movie theater. That's what I could have done. Since like, if I would have mad, it's like, what I could do, is whatever I want to do to you. That's what I could do, right? And obviously his tenor changes then.

And a friend of his sticks his hand out to shake my hand. And I'm like, they're still sitting, and I'm like, I shook his hand. I'm like, yeah. So I'm just trying to let you know that particularly there might be somebody that doesn't appreciate it and then just goes up in your shit because of what you just did. And also, the way when I tried to look back and smile and make sure things were cool, the way you looked at me again, like it was very authoritative. to talk to us and do it.

Very aggressive. So I'm like, I could have done that. And the dude was like, yeah, well, yeah, man, sorry, my bad, whatever, I do appreciate you not talking for the rest of the movie. And I was like, see, even that. Like, I don't appreciate, I appreciate you not talking for the rest of the movie as if I have to not talk in the rest of the movie for you.

I didn't talk in the rest of the movie because I'm a fucking, considerate guy. But if I wanted to do a fucking comedy show in, like, in the movie, I wouldn't have given the fuck what you had to say about it. And it was like, yeah, but, you know,

I do appreciate it. And then I kind of lost it. I was like, hey, don't fucking say that to me again. Or I'm, or we're going to see what your friends is made of. Like, for real. Wow. And, and, and, because it was like six,

it was like six of them. I'm like, we're just going to see what's up. And at that point, I'm, I've completely lost it. Like, I've flashed out. And I, I'm looking and then something else sets in on me, like deep embarrassment because I'm looking around. And sometimes I don't remember like how large of a person I am and stuff.

So I think, when I look around, everybody is like, oh my God, what's about to happen? The credits of the movie are rolling. The lights have come up. Everybody is looking around like, oh shit, what's about to happen? And I go, you know what? Enjoy your Sunday and I leave. And the whole time I walk out, I'm like, God damn, man. How did you become the old nigger you used to be again?

And how did you lose your fucking temper? And so I asked on higher learning, like, was I wrong? Were me and Otto wrong for the way that we reacted to that? And I will ask the Midnight Boys audience, and I will ask the Midnight Boys if you guys think I was wrong. Ah, I mean, if I'm going to be real, hell fucking, though. Like, come on, bro. Like, hell no.

I knew it. I knew it. Like, come on, man. Not at the city walk? No, no, no, no. No, Van ain't doing it. Because here's the thing. The thing I would have been like, I'm like, if you blew up.

up auto shit. Like, you ruined the whole entire screening. That's one thing. You waited. You gave man multiple chances to be like, all right, I fucked up. My bad. I'm, like, my apologies. And then he tried to test you again. Like, nah, like, I think you were mad for not swinging. I would have been like, all right, man, we just got a piece of it. Nah, like, you know how bad it is? I can't get, or think about that. Yo, if you were, can you imagine? If I just check my phone and like, Ben Lathan. Starts a fucking Royal Rumble. At Dune 2.

Oh, Midnight Boys would have been out of here. Midnight boys would have been out of here. Ushered away by saying, May thy knife, chip and shatter. Yeah. I'm like, Van Lathan, Arrest, do you know how gleefully, Oh, my God. TMZ would have reported that story?

It's going to be the front page for like three days. You know how gleefully they would have reported that story? my big dumbass headlining the headside like that would have been on the website for three weeks being pulled away dragged away yo let me go

Dune Dune let me go I'm coming to this bitch I'm coming back to this bitch Just don't ban me from Citywalk I need to see the next movie in 70 Hey