The Ringer-Verse - Exploring 'Star Trek: Strange New Worlds' With Jordan Hoffman. Plus, 'Batman Unburied' Discussion With Sam Witwer | House of R

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Mal and Joanna have separate missions on this unique episode of 'House of R.' First, Joanna is joined by former host of 'The Official Star Trek Podcast' and coauthor of 'The Star Trek Book of Friendship,' Jordan Hoffman, to discuss the new series, 'Star Trek: Strange New Worlds' (7:24). Then, Mal is joined by 'Batman Unburied' star Sam Witwer to talk about the narrative podcast and what goes into playing a character as scary as the Harvester (50:30). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guests: Jordan Hoffman and Sam Witwer Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joanna, do you ever wish you could definitively prove that you had the right opinions about movies? Uh, yeah, Neil, because I do have the right opinions about movies and television, right, Dave? No, because I'm more right about those things, and I demand trial by content. Oh, boy, what is trial by content? Each week, we'll take on a huge question. Each of us will bring a choice and combine with listener submissions and your votes, we will come to a decision. It's trial by content every Tuesday on Spotify, the ringer.com, wherever you're listening right now. Don't let Neil win.

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pointing your whole day around it, presenting the friars turkey breast only from Borishead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Borershead committed to craft since 1905. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to Gotham, but also to join us on the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom.

And we've got more than one fandom for you today. And joining me now to tell you exactly what those fandoms are, she set her phaser to stun. It's my house of our We're king of Wow, real Friday energy there on the working title from both of us. Go host, Joanna Robinson.

A peep-poo! Those are phasers, you know, stunning people. Hello. I have a phaser right there. You see it? Wait, I'm pointing it wrong. Oh yeah, there we go.

I see it. Can't figure out which direction to move my arm in on Zoom. You would not be a good weather person. Literally not. Boy. I feel like you would stare at front of the grain screen and just, like, be pointing to Boko-R-Tan when you mean to be pointing Maine or something like that. Anyway, hello.

Mallory and I are recording this on a Friday afternoon, if you cannot tell, by our energy here. We have, you know, we make this promise the beginning of the podcast, right, for all things fandom. And then sometimes, you know, we steady on on a show or something like that because folks like a week to week, we like, to have a reliable check-in and stuff, but we're in a little pause right now between a series that we're falling on a week-to-week basis. We've flooded the zone on Dr. Strange's the multiverse of madness. I think we've gone full madness, milked that cow, et cetera. We thought we would talk about a couple things that we're interested in that we're not going to be covering week-to-week necessarily, but we just really wanted to check in with them. I will go first.

Yeah. What do you got coming? I've already talked about it on the trial by content podcast. But I am hugely into the new Star Trek series, Strange New Worlds. Love it. And since Mallory, who is an expert in almost everything, we have found the one thing she's not an expert in, which is Star Trek. One day.

One day. Mallory says challenge accepted. I would just say it's been one of the great disappointments in my marriage for my husband, who is a Star Trek obsessive. And I really like and really enjoy Star Trek. I just, I don't, I don't, it's true. I don't possess the expertise here that I would like to, but I vow one day to to meet you in the great beyond Joe.

Not like, that made it sound like we're going to die together, which we might. Yeah, we're going to die together and then the afterlife will watch all of Star Trek together. We'll still be potting. In the afterlife. That's our promise. For us to you.

Yeah. Yeah. So I called him my pal Jordan Hoffman to come in and talk about Star Trek. I don't, I know no one on this planet who knows more. about Star Trek than Jordan Hoffman. So Jordan joined me to talk about Strange New Worlds, which is a show

I really, really recommend there have been two episodes that have aired so far of this new series that is sort of a prequel to the Star Trek original series, so there are characters you'll recognize like Spock and Ahura, etc. But it's also a spinoff

of Star Trek Discovery. And it's got, it's just, you know, Jordan and I will talk about this, this ideal entry point. for people who have never watched any track before in their lives. And then also a beautiful, delicious little scrumptious, nostalgia salad for people who have loved Star Trek their entire lives. It's got it all. Everything's there.

It's a fun, jaunty little week-to-week contained zippy adventure kind of show. You don't have to commit to long arcs as far as we know so far. And so, you know, people are really, really excited and loving the show. Our producer Arjuna loves a show. Our pal Ben Lindberg loves the show. You know, like it's, it's, it's hitting all the, the right spots for people. So we're going to talk about that. And then Mal do you really quickly, quickly want to tease what you did this week?

Sure. You know, my, uh, my chat was not about Star Trek, but let me tell you something. It came up, Joe, because the person I chatted with also loves Star Trek and is loving the new show. So there you go, without even meaning to. We still establish some connections across our segments. I have a pleasure of chatting today with nerd lord Sam Whitwer who voices the villain of the new Spotify original narrative pod Batman Unburied. He plays The Harvester in this Batman Pod. Four episodes of Batman Unburied have aired so far. And so this is your friendly neighborhood spoiler warning for those four episodes. Everything covered in them is fair game. I will issue another spoiler. Spoiler warning when we actually get there. But it was just such fun to chat with Sam about this particular Batman's story, which is very

introspective, very psychological. It is just an incredible sound design. His character is a very scary character. And also to talk to him about so many of the other things that he's done over the year. Of course, Ring Reverse listeners will know him as the voice of Darth Mall on. Clone Wars and Rebels, et cetera. Shout out to my Battlestar Galactica heads out there, got to chat with Crashdown.

On and on the list goes, right? So we had such a fun chat, and Star Trek, as I said, did come up at the end. All right. So before we get into my discussion with Jordan Hoffman, and I'm so excited to hear your say on what we're a discussion because, like, first of all, I can't wait to just listen to it

and wonder if this is what it would feel like to listen to Mallory, just talk to Darth Ball. Do you know what I mean? But, Darth Mal and Darth Mal. Oh, I love it. I love it. I do want to,

the spoiler warning for my segment is just, we don't get into any specifics because I really wanted to make it a, if you haven't seen this show, this is why Star Trek is great and fun and why you should get into this show. So we talked like about a scene or two from the pilot, but not much else.

So you can go in not having seen anything, and it's sort of for you, if you haven't seen the show yet. this segment is for you. So that, let's just go to my chat with Jordan. Should we do that? Let's do it. All right.

I'm so thrilled to have on the show. Someone I've known for so long. It has been a long time. It has been a long time. This is Jordan Hoffman. He writes for all of your favorite websites like vannityfair.com. What a website or decider. Former host the official Star Trek podcast.

And most saliently, for what we're about to talk about right now, the co-author of the Star Trek, Book of Friends. friendship, new book that I was delighted to receive and peruse. Jordan, hello. Welcome to the show. I'm thrilled to be beamed into the ringerverse. And it's quite a verse.

Let me tell you. No, I'm happy to be here and I'm excited to talk about this exciting new day in Star Trek lore, a very, you know, I do think that this is a big moment in Star Trek. I'm not talking about the release of my book. talking about Strange New Worlds, the new series that as we're talking right now, the first two episodes are out there on Paramount Plus. You and I have been lucky enough to see the first five, but we'll stick to just talking about the first two. And it's great. It's really, really exciting. I think we're going to do one even better than that and probably just stick to like the first episode,

because mostly what I want to do with this segment, talk to you about your history with Trek, our shared history with Trek, how we feel about it. But also, I want to get people on board with the show. I'm loving it. You're loving it. I want people who have both have a long history with Trek and maybe who have never seen a single anything about Star Trek to watch this show because I think it's a perfect. You said this to me the other day that you feel like it's a perfect entry point.

It really is. You don't, you really can watch this without having seen anything. Star Trek is one of those things. things that has a bit of a high barrier for entry. There's 55 goddamn years of Star Trek out there, and that can be intimidating. It's like walking into a comic book shop and seeing, oh, I've heard about these X-Men. I'll buy a comic of X-Men, and you're like, it's a little bit impossible to get in there. Now, obviously, there are callbacks to the 55 years of lore in the pilot episode, but the pilot episode does do a very good job

of explaining the important stuff. And, you know, there are, like, moments where like, well, let me explain that and it gets into it. And then once you get past episode one, it's pretty self-contained. Thus far, hopefully that's not going to change. I hope the producers of this show don't screw it up and bring in too much of the older stuff. Of course, I love the older stuff, obviously,

but I think that what's great about Strangy New Worlds is you can start tomorrow, which is something, I mean, really do love Star Trek Discovery, which is, you know, in between seasons four and five. I think at this point, if you haven't been watching Discovery, you lost. The ship flew ahead without you. And it's a tough ask to have people go back to season one because Discovery had a bit of a rocky start. So, you know, if you weren't there in the lean years, it's kind of tough to jump in now. But, you know, Strange New World really does, I think that's a mandate.

It's like, how do we get people that think it's cool? You know, the ship is cool. We all know. Spock. We all know the Enterprise. Yeah, cool looking costumes. Anson Mount, aka Handsome Mounce is a very good looking fella. And Sam Anson, love him. And a lot of great people in the supporting cast, some of whom are from Star Trek lore, some of whom are brand new, or, you know, something like the doctor, Dr. Embenga, he is from Star Trek lore, but, you know, he did not have, he was in two episodes and in one of those episodes, he maybe had a line or two. So he's not like, you know, a heavy-duty character.

He's sort of a deep cut. So we're learning a lot about Dr. Embenga now. It's a great place to start. So I want to go back to your origins with Star Trek and just sort of zoom out a little bit and wonder, you know, I grew up on the original series and next generation. Next Gen is basically like my pure jam, but though I watched a lot of original series growing up and then DS9 and, you know, Voyager and on and on. But I'm curious. I love Star Trek. I consider it a foundational text for me.

But how did it become your like, this is your prime directive, right? Like it's your main, your main text. I mean, you're seeing a lot of the crap behind me. I mean, it is, I do have a part of my life that is like my Star Trek life. Like I have friends, like genuine friends that I talk to every day and they are my Star Trek friends. You know, I've met them through Star Trek fandom. And, you know, and that's part of what the book is about also. But how did it start?

Well, you know, I'm Gen X. I'm hardcore Gen X. I was about five years old when Star Trek the motion picture came out. And I saw the poster. And it was like, who is that? Who is that purplish, devilish, weird-looking alien who I now know is Mr. Spock? I was transfixed by that poster. And I was like, I want to see that movie.

My parents are like, no, we're not taking it to see that. I begged and begged and begged. And somehow I was able to convince them to take me and my oldest sister. And I remember going in and just at the beginning, when the music started, just being like transfixed, right? But here's the thing. During the day, we had been out in the cold, looking at the Christmas tree at Rockefeller Center, you know, my mother schlepping us to Saks Fifth Avenue and whatnot.

And when you're out all day in the cold and then when you go inside somewhere in the evening and it's warm in there and your face gets all red, you get a little sleepy. And Star Trek the Motion Picture is not exactly action-packed. It's not raised the lost. It's not Star Wars. It's a thinking person's film. You know, it's a very cerebral motion picture. So I conked the hell out after begging my parents to take me.

I conced the hell out immediately. But then I was alarmed and awakened during the wormhole sequence, which I'm sure some people listening know all about it. And so I woke up and I was terrified. I was screaming and yelling. I was like, so my parents had to take me out in the lobby and caught me down a little. That's my introduction. Your origin story.

I love it. That's my origin story. I love it. But then years later, Star Trek 4 came out, the one with the whales. And I did see that when I was like 12 or so. I fell in love with it. Absolutely fell in love with it. But I noticed that some people in the audience were laughing at stuff that clearly was references to the show.

I mean, you get Bones and Spock's relationship quickly because they're zinging each other. But I could tell that some people in the audience were just loving the interaction between Bones and Spock. And I'm like, all right, I got to dig in and find out what the hell's going on with the Star Trek. show. So I start watching it late at night. The first one I saw was Taste of Armageddon, which is a great one to start in with. And then, you know, I think arena was right after that. Holy smokes. And then I did, it was when I saw for the first time mirror mirror. I just, you know, Spock with the beard. I remember just seeing, I was a little, you know, I was 12, 13 years old. And they cut to commercial after you zoom in on Spock's beard and just like pacing. 13 year old me,

just pacing in the guest room going like, oh my God. Like I just knew. I didn't even see the title yet mirror mirror. That comes after the commercial, but I just knew having watched the enterprise flip, boop, boop, boop. And then the ion storm happens. And then Spock with a beard. And I'm like, oh, my God, they're in backwards land.

They're in backwards land. I know it. It's going to be crazy. And just pacing around the room. Then X amount of months later, next generation starts. So what a great time. I was discovering for the first time the old stuff. while season one of TNG was starting.

And I was like 13 at this point, 14. And I know now people reflect on season one of TNG as being less than. Didn't feel that way to me. You know, now fans look back and say, oh, the fans hated Wesley Crusher. It was annoying kid on the Enterprise. That's news to me, pal. I was Wesley's age.

I thought he was the coolest thing that ever happened. On the Rainbow Sweat. Where's my rainbow sweatshirture? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'll wear that to school every day of the week. That's the coolest thing I ever saw. You got a kid on the Enterprise?

Why wouldn't you? He's a genius. He's the Mozart of math and science. It says so right there. I'm curious, there's so many people who have stories. There are so many different entry points that people can have. So with all these shows, you know, they're currently launching and the long history of Trek, what do you think is the core identity of Trek?

Like, what makes a Trek property a Trek property? Did I just ask you the most existential philosophical? It is. And it is, I think, I think if you, if I must answer. answer, it's there is something to, you know, my blink response is it's something that early on you discover about Captain Picard and his way of being a leader. And it makes for funny supercuts on YouTube. But basically, what he says early on is that, you know, this is a vessel of exploration, but we're going to get into trouble while we're out there. So we're going to need occasionally

to get into military situations. And I expect all my senior officers to come up with ideas. And I will take an idea from anywhere, but I also reserve the right to tell you to shut up, and I'm going to do it my way if I want to. It's not a democracy. It's a let's talk about it, and I'm still going to do it. And that makes for great super cuts because Wharf always wants to fire photon torpedoes and Picard is always like, no, Mr. Wolf, stand down. But I think that element of just like how to be a good leader and include your crew,

and certainly Kirk did this too. but I just think that era of TNG's, you know, openness, and it gets into a lot of, you know, the kindness of Star Trek and how it is different from a typical fantasy or sci-fi franchise, how it really is about this utopian concept. And it's summed up by Picard. I mean, if I must choose an allegiance to simply one captain, it would be Captain Picard.

Sure, with no disrespect to Jane Way and the rest. I love them all. But there's something about that. And that era, that sort of 90s era, because the aesthetic of TNG can be found in Deep Space 9 and Voyagers. That's a long block of time. That's 87 and 95. Those are some key years of being home with my television set when I could have been out. No, that's a lot of time.

And, you know, the current aesthetic of Star Trek is different. I mean, Discovery looks different from Picard because they're set in different eras. And, you know, even though there's cool, amazing stuff happening with the animation, it's a different, different feel. Enterprise is a great show, too, but it kind of lives on an island. I like the Chris Pine movies as well, but they have a distinctive look that's much more flash. So I think that sweet spot of that 90s era is always going to live for me as what I think of for Star Trek. I love that. And I think if I were to pick an era that I had to exist in, it might be Picard because I love all the space knitwear that they wear on that show, just a million different

galactic sweaters. But no, I'm a next-gen person as well, of course. And I think that something that's so interesting about what's going on. Obviously, we're in the full-blown reboot culture era of intellectual property. And so you can look at what J.J. Abrams did with, do we call it the Kelvinverse, is that what we call? Yeah, that's the official title is the Kelvin verse. Actually, okay. So the Kelvinverse, the DJ Abrams and Beyond movies, right, is one way of rebooting sort of this era that we're familiar with. And then with Strange 2 Worlds, they're doing something quasi similar in that, you know, we've got Spock is on this show and

Ahura is on this show and they're bringing in Kirk onto the show eventually with Paul Wesley. But at the center here, we've got this character of Christopher Pike, who was introduced in the original series. Bruce Greenwood played him in the Kelvinverse movies. And then Handsome Hanson Mount plays him in Star Trek Discovery. He was so popular, this is my understanding, correct, by me wrong, but he's so popular that the fans create a petition to be like, give us more of... That there is some truth. Yes, there definitely is truth to that whether or not the show was. have happened anyhow is, I think that there were people within the sort of that are producing Star Trek

that were very eager to point to those fan letters and say, see, you know, this is for the proof that what we want to do should actually happen. So there's a little bit of chicken and egg there. The funny thing about Pike as a character is that Pike and Kirk are similar. They're not, they're not galaxies apart. For those who don't know, the original pilot, of Star Trek was shot in 1964. And Jeffrey Hunter, who was in, you know, Hollywood movie starred, The Searchers and King of Kings and one. And he played the first captain, kind of a Kennedy-era, you know, good man on the, on the,

out there in space, you know, and has a lot of similarities with Kirk. And the first pilot didn't quite snap together. And the network, which was NBC at the time, didn't reject it. Desi Lou produced it independently. Didn't reject it, but said, you know, we have, we see the potential here. We got some changes. One of the changes, you know, we always say studio notes are always wrong. This is a studio note that was absolutely right.

And it comes purely from the profit motive. Here's evil, greedy capitalism kind of working for once. NBC at the time was owned by RCA. And RCA at the time manufactured televisions. And their big bet in 64, 65, 66 was this new thing called the color television. And they were trying to convince people to throw down serious coin on something they didn't already need. We've already got a black and white. What do we need with a color?

Well, you're going to need it for a show like the next Star Trek because the red shirts are going to pop and the blue shirts are going to pop. And that bridge has got the red and the yellow and the blue because the original pilot, it's kind of muted gray. and some light blues, and it's not what we think of as Star Trek. I mean, when I think of that sort of like, when I was a kid falling asleep at 1142 p.m., dreaming of the buttons that glowed and the sound effects, it's that really, you know, primary color Star Trek that we think about.

And that was a decision born out of, boy, we got to move these color TVs here. You know, it was pure profit. But that was a note. And so Gene Roddenberry said, okay, duly noted, we're going to make the colors pop and we're going to make some other changes. We're going to make this Mr. Spock character.

If you watch the original pilot, he's not cold and emotionless as much. You know, he giggles in one shot. He shouts in another. But then Gene Roddenberry also knew the value of a dollar. When Star Trek got started, he did a second pilot and it was picked up. And then they started doing season one. He's like, God, shit, we shot this episode, this old pilot. And it's sitting in the closet.

What are we going to do? I know. We're going to repurpose that. that content. And they created a two-parter called the Menagerie in season one, wherein Spock is on trial and it's entered into evidence is this visual record. And the visual record is, you know, 80% of the episode they already shot. So that's how Pike got into the official canon as sort of memories of the old days, 10 years plus. And then Pike, you know, was discussed a few times. And then when the movies came, like you say, Bruce Greenwood, who did a terrific job, was the pike there.

I forgot what your initial question was, but I was all excited to talk about the colors TV. Well, I just think that it's such an interesting opportunity to do a prequel that doesn't feel quite as like, you know, this is how, you know, Kirk got his phaser. That was a selling point for Enterprise, which also was a prequel. And I really like Enterprise, but the early ads were, see, the first use of the Transporter. Like, that's really what the ads were for Enterprise.

And that's not this at all. It's like part of it is because Discovery and Stranger World is technically a spinoff of Discovery. It's because Discovery decided to go 10 years prior when they were dreaming it up, which one could argue may not have been the best decision. They're kind of stuck in that time period anyhow. They're really kind of making the best of it right now. So you're right. It is very new. It's not a reboot of the original series, even though Spock is there and Ethan Peck is wonderful.

and Anson Mount is Kirkish, and he got Young O'Houra, and then Young Nurse Chapel, and Young, the character number one, Una Chin O'Reilly. They're all from that earlier pilot that I mentioned. Of course, there's tons of lore in the books and comics about all these people. It is a prequel, but there's two important factors. One, we don't really know much about where this is going to end up, except for the fact that Pike is going to end up, you know, horribly mutilated and, and unable to do anything other than beep in the wheelchair. So we know it's going to end up there. And B, what it feels like to me is like, you know, again, back to when I was a kid.

And I'm sure it's like this for any fan for a show that's been canceled. So I've seen the first, the original series, three seasons, 10,000 times. This is really corny. I can't believe I'm embarrassed. I'm really going to embarrass myself. I have had actual dreams. That's so embarrassing. Joanna, don't tell anybody.

I'm going to tell you this. I have had actual dreams where. No one will hear this, put me. Turn to, turn to Michael. I have had actual dreams where I've, like, been in a situation and, like, I find tapes of the original series that I've never seen before. And it's like, you're laughing at it. No, it's so sweet.

I love it. It's so embarrassing. This is not when I was, like, 14. This was, like, three years ago. I have had dreams that's like, oh, my God. Wait, there's more than the 79 original series episode. was what? There's this whole box of tapes and I'm watching like the

new adventures of the old, my old friends, Kirk Spock and Bones. And that's never going to happen. Lest I build a time machine, travel back and create a fourth season of the original. So it's never going to happen. Thus far, strange new worlds, even though

it's a modern television show and it has more modern pacing and certainly the look is pays homage to the original, but it's a modern show. Having watched the first five episodes, I really do feel like this is the closest I'm ever going to get to that fantasy. It's like it really feels like original series to me. And that's, you know, from season two of Discovery, which is when they introduced Pike, there was one episode where, because Discovery is

very arc oriented, you know, it's very much season arts. There was one where they just kind of went off on an adventure and they go somewhere and they're in a church and they're fighting Space Church. And that was everybody's favorite episode. It's like, wow, that felt like TOS. Like, no disrespect to disco. I love disco. I really do.

But it's like, holy crap, where did this come from? Ain't that a tall, cool glass of water? You know, what if we were to get more of that? And that's alluding to what you said earlier. The fan response was like, that episode's everyone's favorite. Not everyone's. That episode is many people's favorite episodes because it felt like TOS. And that's what's thus far happening on Strange New World.

Is there a moment in the first episode of this new series, Strange New World, that you were watching, you're like, they're really, they did it. This really feels like I'm in the right hand. 100%. What was it? It's when they beam down to the planet and they're wearing the clothing of the people on the planet and they're seeing like a commotion in what looks like, you know, I don't know where they shot it, but it could have been sort of like a. community college somewhere, you know? And that is so TOS. That's like when they go to the Nazi planet,

and also Operation Annihilate, when they go to the colony and everybody's missing, but there's modern architecture. And then La An Nuni and Sung has to create a diversion, and Spock's got to get in there. And then he vulcan grips them, vulcan pinches them, excuse me. That really, like, got me really juiced.

I was like, oh, my God. I really feel like I'm home right now. That was such a great little moment. On a visceral level, I felt it. I think it's, you mentioned, so there's this character, Lonunian Sung, who is obviously somehow related to Khan, the greatest Star Trek villain, possibly one of the greatest film villains of all time. And I'm not talking about Camerbatch, obviously. Ricardo, I think that element that she is part of the team here is part of this really careful equation that they put together that I don't always attribute to, like, Cursman and Goldsman, the, the people who are working on this are not always known for their sort of delicate balance when

they put together things. But I think this combination of characters were incredibly familiar with like Spock, Ahura, eventually Kirk. Characters were somewhat familiar with Pike, right? Number one, Rebecca Romaine's character that we met in disco. Minor characters, as you say, Dr. Ambenga, who like a minor, minor character that they're going to like draw out and bring up and bring to the four. and then these interesting connections and then whole new characters that we've never met before. It's just like a perfect blend of the familiar. This is the ideal way to approach nostalgia-fueled property that can feel familiar to people who have long been with the franchise, but such an easy entry point for people who are now.

100%. Yeah. So it's funny. When I've been watching this, whatever character is on screen that moment, I'm like, that's my favorite character in the strange world. And then the next person comes up. And some of them are brand new. Like, I love Ortegas, the badass kind of like Brooklyn tough chick helmsman. She's so cool.

And, you know, she's pretty new. She hasn't been in too many shows. I looked up the actress. I'm forgetting her name right now. She's really good. The gal who plays Nurse Chapel. Her name is Jess Bush. She's Australian.

Really great at taking. I mean, Nurse Chapel was never a, she was very much a periphery character in the original series. and it's it's kind of brand new for the show, but the roots are there of what she did. She had a little bit of sass on TOS, not much because she was background, but she had a smidge of sass,

and it's been drawn out for this now, and she's got a lot more sass. Her relationship with Spock, we always knew she had a crush on Spock in original series, but now it's like more amplified and he's aware of it. You never knew if he knew in original series.

He's clearly aware of it. So there's a lot of that, like you say, just kind of taking the older stuff and making new. I love Lon Nune and Singh. And I'll be 100% frank when I saw that they were doing that. Originally, I was a little nervous. I'm like, oh, we're bringing Khan into this. But really what it is thus far, again, we haven't seen too much. She's just a character that is struggling with her.

She comes in with a perceived stigma because she's related in some way to Khan. They've been a little vague so far. He's, she's her, his great-granddaughter or something. We don't know. It's a little vague. But, you know, she assumes that everybody hates her. And this is Starfleet, damn it. We take you for who you are.

We judge you by the content of your character, not by your name. And that's, you know, right. It's right in the heart. So it's good stuff. So I really dig her a lot. If I had to pick a favorite, an early favorite for me, not that you ask, but I'm going to tell you anyway. It's Nurse Chapel. Like I'm just a really, I think she's great.

We'll see, we'll see. And then also, I mean, Anson Mount, as, you know, all handsome Anson jokes aside and the truly iconic swoop of his hair in the series aside, I think as a leader, you know, you talked about Picard. There's something about these captains. Kirk never really inspired this, right? Because Kirk was like, Kirk felt like he was just wanting to like mix it up and be on the adventure or whatever. and you're not really looking to Kirk to be like a sort of father figure for the crew. That's not really who he was. For the crew not so, yeah, I agree with you.

For the crew not so much, but with the guest characters of the week, he could be very kind. He always led with kindness and never, you know, would never, never kill somebody. You know, not even the gorn. He, the disgusting slithery gorn. He didn't kill the gorn. You know, you think of episode like, like Miri, he, you know, she's a teenager and she's kind of falling in love with him. So he has to get information out of her.

But he's not like manipulating her. He's just being kind to her to help, you know? And sitting on the road to forever where, again, he's got to get information and he's got to get help from Edith Keeler. But he really does fall in love with her. So I think you're right. I think the rest of the crew in original series is just like, he's the captain. We will follow him into hell. You know, that's just baseline.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see that in search for Spock. You know, they're all just like, oh, we're all going to get court martial for doing this. Okay, Captain Kirk needs us. Like, it's not even a thought. So you're right. There's not too much of him like being the father figure with the crew. It's already built in.

You kind of see it on the planet. But there's just something so comforting about spending time with Picard. And I feel the same way about Pike here. Something, you correct me if I'm wrong, you would know way better than I would. But in my sort of research around this, something that I really. read was that the way that Pike, and you see this in the second episode, the way that Pike sort of cooks for the crew and does like family dinners with the crew is based on something that Anson Mount would do on set just like as a, as an actor. This is something that he would do

with his like co-stars. And so they built it into the character as like an aspect. Oh, that's really cool. I was unaware of that. I do know, I can say having interacted a lot with some of the new Trek actors being a panelist host on things like Star Trek, The Cruise and various Star Trek conventions, that these new shows, particularly disco, these people, they're really, you know, the Star Trek family, it sounds like a joke, but they really, really, really all connect.

Because a lot of this was shot during COVID in Toronto, and, you know, most of them are not from Toronto. So they're up there, they don't know anybody, and they're only allowed to speak to certain people because they're in Zone A and Zone B and whatnot. So there really is a connection with this team. There's also the people on Discovery really feel like they've been through battle together because it was a bit of a rocky production at first.

How many showrunners have there been? A great number of showrunners have come and gone. There was one showrunner. The first one didn't even really start. And then they had the people who came in after and they were requested to leave for reasons that have never 100% been made public. So they really have been through a war together. And yeah, I'm not at all surprised to learn that Anson Mount would cook a barbecue for everybody.

That scene, which is the first scene in episode two where you get to this cadet O'Hourri, you get a lot about O'Hora's backstory because she's the new kid in town. And she goes to one of Captain Pikes's dinners in his voluminous chambers, which is a little bit of canon breach because, you know, his quarters did not look like. that in the cage, but that's okay. It's a great. It's a great thing. And yeah, he's wearing the apron and he's just, he's just a sweetheart. It's dad, right? It's very dad. Captain Dad. So, or Captain Daddy, if you prefer. So, like, the, the, I want to wrap up by talking about this. So, like, there's that sense of family, but like, I want to talk about your book for a second, the Star Trek

book of friendship. Like, one of the greatest things about Star Trek, along with the fun adventures, the sort of witty sci-fi premises, all of that sort of stuff is just this just this feeling that you're hanging out with a group of friends and they're your friends too. And so I just want to talk to you about this book that you co-wrote with your friend, Rob Proman, and this idea of trek and friendship, you know? Sure. I mean, also, that's like why, you know, people who love DS9 love that more than anything because that had the most amount of hanging out in it.

They were all stuck on the station together. So just real quick, Rob Perlman is a great writer and he's, this is his 10th Star Trek book. He also writes a lot of marvelous sort of pop culture-affiliated books. He's a best-selling book. He did a sort of the, what was it called the Office as, I forget the title, but it's the office as if they were all in kindergarten. And he did the parks and rec where Leslie's running for class president and one.

And these kind of cute pop culture books, he's very prolific. And he writes a lot about Star Trek. This first one was called Fun with Kirk and Spock, a very funny book with great illustrations. And for this one, he was, you know, thinking about, at dread as the pandemic started, you know, how he hasn't been going to the conventions lately and how he's witnessed these friendships that have started at conventions that I want to write a book about Star Trek and friendship. Because like you say, we think about the sci-fi concept, time travel and, you know, things like that. Or we think about special effects. Some people love Star Trek just because of the ships. That's all they care about is the ships, and that's great.

That's their business. But for him, it's always been about the relationships. It is a show about people at work, really. I mean, you know, think about it. Sulu and Chekhov, they share a desk. You know, they get up front and they sit there. And so does Depp Moreno Oshikin on Discovery. They sit in the front and they're at their desks and the boss is behind them

and they can give each other looks. So Rob and I met on the Star Trek circuit maybe 10 years ago or so, And our relationship is built mainly on making jokes about Star Trek. That's kind of what we do all day. So he decided he's like, look, we're going to do a book about Star Trek friendship. What are we going to do? So we were talking about it. And because it was a pandemic.

And this was kind of early on in the pandemic, like kind of pre-vaccine pandemic. So it was like pretty scary times. Like nobody was going anywhere. And we were just talking over Zoom and trying to figure out what the book is going to be. He'd sold the premise. Now we had to figure out what the hell we were going to do. So we were just yapping. and cracking each other up.

And Rob was like, this is the book. It's the dialogue about these characters. And we're going to just kind of have a general outline. We want to talk about obviously Kirk and Spock and Kirk and Bones and Bones and Spock. And then Picard and Riker and Riker and then Janeway and Boulana and all the other connections. And then the frenemies, Odo and Quark and Picard and Q, are they frenemies? I don't know. And just kind of go through it.

And then for weeks, we just had to set up a meeting where we would shmerect, for an hour based on the characters and just had a blast doing it. And then when we were done, we had 10 zillion hours of transcripts to go through. And then we made that into this book. And we got Ethan Phillips and Robert Picardo to write the forward because they are, they played the doctor in Neelix on Voyager and are genuine friends in real life. I witnessed this. And they were friends before Voyager.

They knew each other for 15 years before they were both on Voyager. They were very, very good friends because they were both in the New York theater, and they have a similar schick, Picardo and Phillips. And they would constantly be up for one another's parts. So they kind of, they loved each other, but they hated each other. You know, Ethan Phillips, of course, was one Benson for five years, and Picardo read for that part and other stuff that Picardo did. You know, Phillips read for that. And they, you know, so there was a lot of schick. So they did the forward for us.

And some of the money from the book is going. Picardo is a spokesperson for the Planetary Society, which is Carl Sagan's group. And so some of the proceeds in the book are going to the Planetary Society, which is also nice. I love it. All right. So to conclude, to wrap up this beautiful conversation with you, Jordan Howe. I could really talk to you about Star Trek all day. I'm not going anywhere.

To wrap it up, two quick questions for you. one, who do you consider your like best friend in the Star Trek universe? Like the person that is closest to me that I can hang out with? Like the character that you were like, this would be my Desert Island buddy forever. Oh, it's Spock because he's such a pain in the ass. That's an even Pac-Man, he gets that Spock is the greatest comedian in the galaxy. Spock is hilarious and his deadpan delivery, can I give a minor spoiler from episode two? It's out there.

Yeah, yeah. There's the one line where the lieutenant, it's Kirk's brother, which I'm going to have time to get into. Kirk's brother is excited about saying and goes, Yatsi. And then he says, oh, I'm sorry, that is a reference to an Earth game from the 20th century. And Ethan Peck goes, I am familiar with the concept of Yotsie. It's just the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. Ethan Peck's nails I mean there's only one Leonard Nimoy

but now there are two Spocks There really are two Spocks Ethan Peck no dis to our friend Zachary Quinto Zachary Quinto Zachary Quinto is a nice guy And Zachary Quinto did great work And Zachary Quinto should hold his pointy ears high And no he did a very good job

But there is only one Leonard Nimoy And now there are two Spock Leonard Nimoy and Ethan Peck Spock would be my best pal I think that certainly Nelix and I share a common philosophy of life. I, you know, if ever I were in Starfleet, I would probably, I would not be a science officer. I can barely use a calculator.

I would not be a helmsman. I don't know how to drive a car. But I could do Nelix's job of just kind of like being the idiot on board, making everybody feel good. And I will say, having been lucky enough to be for a decade now, moderating panes. at the official Star Trek conventions traveling all over the world and five times on a boat and six times come next year. I have gotten to know Ethan Phillips pretty well. And he is Nelix.

He is Nelix to the rest of that crew. You know, when Voyager will be shooting their long days and Kate Mulgrew will be getting hassled by the producers to change her hair yet again. Ethan Phillips would cheer everybody up. And I have had the honor of being stuck in attacking. with Ethan Phillips in Germany. Just me and Ethan Phillips and the German taxi driver. And if I had recorded that conversation, it was the funniest 25 minutes of my life. It really was.

I love it. I love it. It's good stuff. Well, Jordan Hoffman, thank you so much. Here's my hope. Here's my fondest hope that this show becomes huge. It's on Paramount Plus, which not everyone has. I recommend if there's like a, I'm sure there must be like some sort of free trial to

like try it and see if you like, strange you. do worlds. I really recommend people check it out. Old, old Trek fans, new. I think that it's a great way to get into the universe. And it's a universe that I love. It's the universe that you love. And I think it's a kind of show I think we could all really use right now, honestly, not to get too sappy about it. Paramount Plus is getting, it's gaining ground. You know, it's not, it's not Disney Plus, but it ain't peacock.

It's somewhere in the middle. It's gaining ground. And this is a big win for them. It's a big win because I do love, I do love, I love Lower Decks, but that's an acquired taste. And Lower Dex is, it's Rick and Morty for Star Trek, but not as dark as Rick and Morty. And it's my wife can't watch Lower Decks. She's like, I'm done. I'm like, but that's a reference to this. That's all, there's a lot of Easterer.

Lower Dex is an acquired taste. Discovery also had its bumpy star, but Discovery does have a following. You know, I don't think it's not a huge. success across the board. But the characters are great. Anthony Rapp's character is so great. And Tignotero and Suniquo Martin Green is such a good actress. And there's just a lot of really good stuff happening on Discovery.

And I do want to share one thing, which is from the last Star Trek Cruise, where I was doing a lot of stuff, but also just going around meeting people. I did meet Star Trek fans. To go on a Star Trek cruise is a lot of money. It's a week at sea. You're throwing out a lot of money. And it's a lot of older people who loved original series when they were kids. That's the bulk of the demographic, but there were a lot of younger people there, too.

And I did meet a youngish woman, African-American woman, who was obsessed with Star Trek. She was watching the whole thing. She was in the middle of Voyager when I talked there. It's like, what made you get into Star Trek? She was like, this new Star Trek had a black woman in the lead. I was going to watch it. And now I love it. And it's like, well, that's Exhibit A, that this experiment worked.

We now have a new lifer who had heard of Star Trek her whole life, but never watched it, and now loves it. And then I met this other kid, and they were 50. 15 years old, they're with their mom. So I was talking to this kid, and I'm like, were you always into Star Trek? No, it's kind of new. Well, why are you watching? Well, it's because of the Dera, who is the gender, non-binary character on Discovery.

It's like, I saw this, that there was going to be this character. I went back and watched it. I'm like, oh, you're watching the old stuff too? And they're like, oh, yeah, I'm already twice through Voyager. You know, just like, and that's like, that's the thing. So now there are younger fans into this otherwise decrepit franchise that's 55 years old and would not last forever. It can't all be old guys like me talking about the gorn all day.

You know, it's got to be, it's got to be younger stuff. So, you know, that's, that's exciting to hear. And Discovery really has a lot of great characters. It's a lot of cool stuff. It's pretty neat. Joanna, who's your Star Trek friend? It's Ginen. Making the drinks.

I mean, come on, just hanging out the bar, talking, talking like, You know, human emotions or alien emotions with Gynon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Gynon is pretty cool. I'm not going on any missions. I'm just hanging out in the bar with Gynon. That's what I'm doing.

Gynon occasionally had to get in the action, but not too often. Times Arrow. She's in the cave, but not too often. Yeah, Gynon had a cool gig. Before there was Nelix, there was Gyn. You know, where is the Gynon Nelix fan fiction? Someone start writing it immediately, please. The answer is I'm sure there's volumes of it out there already.

But yeah, Gyn and Nelix. What are their adventures like? Amazing. Well, Jordan, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. I really heartily recommend the Star Trek book of Friendship book if you're a Star Trek fan. If you know a Star Trek fan, it's like the perfect little gift book. Yeah, absolutely.

It's a good gift for the birthdays and eventually for the holidays. Graduations are up around the corner. Father's Day. A lot of dads love Star Trek. It's got a lot of cool, a lot of cool art too. A lot of great illustrations by J.K. Woodward, who is a very established comic book. Illustrator, J.K. Woodward, he has a really good eye. We were very lucky to get him to work on this.

Thanks, Jordan. So long. Thank you for having me. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimfaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

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Okay, so Mallory Rubin, my question for you is, I do not want to add to your ever-growing pile of things that we have to, like, you know, because we're prepping for Obi-One. We are long-term prepping for Fire and Blood and Lord of the Rings and all those things. There's three seasons of stranger things this weekend. Get ready. Yeah, there's a bunch of like, you know, Miss Marvel comics we want to read, all this sort of stuff.

I'm doing the complete works of Alex Garland to talk to Sean on the Big Pick. We're constantly consuming things, right? But what do I got to do to get you to watch one episode of Strange New Worlds? No pressure. Nothing at all. You've already done it. I'm in. Is it talk about how high and beautiful Anson Moum's hair is in the show?

I mean, you know, I don't need any convincing on that front. I'm excited to check it out. Sincerely, can't wait to join you on this journey. And I will be sending you my full report after I watch it. I got to see if I can convince Adam to rewatch it because as usual, he lost patience with me. and proceeded of his own accord, which I thought was rude. But, you know, eight years into marriage. But fair.

Scenes from a marriage. Follow up question. Yeah. Will I be scared listening to Batman Unburied? I think that you will be unsettled by design, but in a way that you find compelling and intriguing. It is a really, like, mystery-laden story so far. There have been a lot of twists through the first four episodes.

episode. So I would love to be chatting with you about what we think is coming. And theories? Theory Corner? I was going to say, it's a Theory Corner candidate, Joe. And I know you love nothing more than Theory Corner. I really, I mean, it's a tie between wigs and Theory Corner, but that's the top of the whole story. It's an audio story. So you can imagine whatever wig work you want, you know? I'm going to. Shout out to the Ringiverse listeners. I have been seeing some truly horrendous Marvel Wigs come in on various social media platforms. So thank you for answering the call from a mailbag episode. Elena's braid, though, for best hair was...

Oh, yeah. I mean, we, that was on us. We were remiss. That was on us. Yeah. Remiss. Exactly. But yeah, I was reminded of a few choice little numbers that we've seen over the years on

people's heads. So thank you for listening to the mailbag episode for responding. Also, I've been seeing some, like, dinosaur Avengers casting that has been really pleasing me. So thank you all so much for all of the mailbag interactions. People also seem pretty hyped about the erotic thriller in Paint World idea. And why wouldn't they be? And Dev Patel is Reed Richards. So like something for everyone, honestly, in that episode of the Ringerverse. Um, Mallory, should we hear your chat with Sam Whitwer? Let's do it. Let's chat with Sam. I am so thrilled to be joined now by one of the stars of Batman Unburied, Sam Whitwer,

who voices the story's villain, the harvester. Keep your shoes on, folks, so he can't wash your feet. Sam. Hi, hello. Welcome into the Ringerverse. Thank you for chatting with me today. Thank you for having me. I appreciate that.

Thank you. Okay, before we dive in, a quick reminder for the listeners. The first four episodes of Batman Unburied are currently available to listen to on Spotify. So this is a very quick spoiler warning before we dive in. The first four episodes are fair game today. If you have not yet listened to them, hit pause. Go listen to them. You'll love them.

Then come back and listen to our chat with Sam. All right. Spoiler warning dispensed. It's time to begin. Sam, you're a staple in the nerdverse from your roles in Ballastar Galactica to super girl, to being human, to, of course, my personal favorite voicing Darth Maul and so many other characters across Star Wars, animated properties and video games. On and on the list goes, what did it feel like when you first added Batman, one of the most iconic properties in all

of comic bookdom, to your film slash TV slash video games slash podcastography, and what did it feel like to add Batman I'm buried? Well, you know, it's what's funny is this is the first professional, unless I'm wrong, I think the first professional Batman related project I ever did was not too long ago. It was called DC Universe All-Star Games. And you can see the first episode on YouTube, DC Universe All-Star Games. And it's where me, a guy named John Lee Brody came to me and Freddie Prince Jr. and said, hey, I bought the DC universe role-playing game. It is still shrink-wrapped from the 80s. What do we do with this? And then they're, well, we got to play it. And we'll get DC to, you know, to shoot us playing it as a sort of an actual play thing with this old role-playing

game, this old sort of D&D for DC universe. And they're like, Sam, you got to run it. I'm like, okay, well, if I'm going to run it, that game is from the 80s. So the story is going to be very 80s. So we ended up doing very John Hughes, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, meets breakfast club, meets karate kid thing. And in it, and in it, Austin Creed was Batman. So I got, you know, I had a hand in casting a Batman. And he was brilliant. He was, he was incredibly fun and funny and bat-like. It was really, really great. So yeah, that was my first, I guess, not my first DC gig, but my first Batman-adjacent gig, because there was cool things where I was like, hey, so for the set,

can we get like a Batman costume behind us? And they're like, great, which one do you want? I'm like, Keaton? They're like, sure. I'm like, what? This worked? We had Keaton's Batman costume behind us and all kinds of details and stuff from movies if we wanted it.

It was insane. It was really, really fun. You weren't tempted to go for the bat nipple suit? I didn't want to do that. No, I don't want to do that. That all thing of like, well, if you, I read some article or something like that where they were like, well, we put the nipples on because if you didn't put the nipples on, you just be staring at his crotch or something. And you're like, what? I don't get what's going on.

Sound logic. Yeah, tracks. I don't get what's going on. It's too, it's just, that's too featureless. You're like, I don't think it is, but okay. Incredible. Beyond that, like, what was your relationship to bad? Batman canon just as a fan before that, you know, in addition to the work on Batman on Barry,

like, do you have a favorite Batman film or show or a comic run or any story or character even? Like, that feels most emblematic of what it is that you love about spending time in the world? When, you know, I wouldn't call myself a Batman expert the way I feel like I'm perhaps somewhat an expert on Star Wars. But I have read a lot of Batman. And in terms of the character that I was playing in this, I imagined that he was someone that was just out of frame in one of the panels of Arkham Asylum, you know, with those beautifully painted panels

and disturbing imagery and all that stuff. But yeah, I grew up with Killing Joke and Batman Year 1 and Dark Night Returns. And what I will do is every so often go away from it. And then I will come back to Batman and be like, okay, what are they got? What have they done recently? And then you read White Knight. You're like, whoa, this is new or you read, you know, like a few years ago, court of owls. You're like, whoa, they're really, it's really always surprising to me how much they can continue to do that's new

with a character that's been around for what, 60, 70 years, you know? And it's the same thing with the adaptations of the character himself. I just saw the Batman, the Pattinson, Batman, literally like two days ago. And I was like, wow, yet another completely worthy interpretation of that character. And then you hear Winston Dukes Batman, which I haven't really heard much of until now that it's coming out. And you go, and yet another completely worthy different adaptation of this character that we all know and love. So I really do love characters where they're so big that it's, worth almost like, you know, like certain, certain famous plays or Shakespeare, it's worth people going in saying, well, I have a take on that. I want to try that. Let me show you what I have

that that could bring something perhaps new to this. And, yeah, it's really fun. Yeah, I love that. I have a few questions. Actually, I think that tap into that idea of stories that do something new and feel really fresh, but also hold on to the through lines and the touchstones of the most iconic Batman stories on the on the subject of your character caroling the villain of the unburied series a serial killing cannibal called the harvester who is terrorizing Gotham by this is just a brief list killing people taking and eating their organs making them taste each other's amygdala's

nice touch leaving I gotta say very impassioned but creepy messages for Bruce Wayne luxurating in washing feet as previously mentioned I have a few different questions about bringing the Harvester to life in this podcast, but I want to start with actually some things you've already said, specifically your tweets and your Instagram posts about the project. On Twitter, you said, I'm the bad guy in this. Why am I always, quote, the bad guy in this? And on Instagram, you said,

this is the single most creep myself outperformance I've ever given. And, you know, there's just us here. It's just friends. Like, it's a high bar. That's a high bar to clear, man. So what is the answer to your own questions there? What makes you so well suited to tapping into that menace and that awe that The Harvester and so many of your other characters need to be able to convey to the audience? I think it's like odd facial proportions that have caused people to treat me in a certain way and therefore I am then reflecting back on them their own behavior.

I don't know. I, you know, I don't know. I someone recently said to me something complimentary, which was I asked them the same question. I'm like, why? They're like, well, because you're the only one that can do this. I'm like, oh, well, that's a good way to put it. Thank you. Thank you.

That's nice. You know, look, it's not, it's not the easiest thing to do always. But it's, I don't know. It's what they, I mean, in terms of, I don't know, like in terms of the closest thing I've done to this, I guess it would be Dexter. Another cheerful tale. When I saw the Batman, the scene where the riddler gets arrested was very similar to the scene in Dexter where I get arrested

and they even use some of the same shots. He gets put on the counter and he's looking right at the camera as his face of Sunnickways and he's got this. We have that same exact thing years ago in Dexter, except I'm singing to the camera. And then he sings in his cell. I'm like, wow, I wonder if this is, some sort of weird parallel now that I'm in Batman and

you know anyway Paul Dana was was fantastic hold for just a second barking dogs standby Mr. Walter you want to come over here Walter good boy come over here you want to hop up and then there's Buster his brother

goodness to your good boys there well there was your little glimpse of I think who I am in my private life which is just I adore animals and stuff. But what were we talking about? Are we talking about Batman? I have no idea. Talking about how you said that this was the most creeped out performance

ever given. Creep yourself out performance that you have ever given. Yeah, you know, because I don't know. When I think about, okay, let's take the Grant Morris and Arkham, Arkham Asylum, or some of the stuff that they've done in Batman. They've done some pretty disturbing stuff. So I felt like, well, if I'm going to do this, it's got to be equal to that imagery, equal to that type of vibe. And thankfully, one of the writer-producers of this, Eric Carrasco, was a buddy of mine.

And I was asking him, you know, what were you thinking when you wrote this? What's going on? This is disturbing stuff. What's the deal? And we got on the phone. And I had some ideas and sort of reading some lines to him. And we literally kind of came up with the character together over 30 minutes talking about certain real-life serial killers, talking about, he turned to be on to this. You go on YouTube and type in Moondog monologue.

He said this was playing in the background when I was writing it. This might be helpful to you. And so that was what I was listening to on my way to the record session. And, you know, and like, but it was, it was one of those things where I could, one of the rare occurrences where you could just like pick the writer's brain and say, what's in there. Show me what's in there. And I'll see what I can come up with that that is, that is that. So we got to do that together. It was really, really fun to do that.

I've had a few occasions of that in my career where you get to talk to a creator and jointly create. character uh you mentioned darth mall me and pheloney did that for we would get on the phone and this was months before we recorded anything and we would just talk every time we'd get on the phone we talk for like an hour about who we thought the character should be what made the most sense depending you know based on the stories that george was coming up with and uh and people like dave or eric understand actors well enough to know that the more information you furnish them with uh the better the performance will be. You're on a Zoom with some of the most enthusiastic members of the Philoniverse.

Oh, good. This is in the middle of a Rebels and Clone Wars rewatch right now, actually, to get set for Obi-1. But the Ring ofverse crew just collectively transcended to a different state of euphoria when we saw the Asoka set photo with Faloni's hat just perched on the edge. Remarkable stuff. He would talk about, we, you know, literally 10 years ago, walking around. having a conversation with them. And he's like, you know, I think within 20 years, we might see

live action Assoca. And it's 10 years later. And he's doing it. That's incredible. I truly cannot wait. I mean, on that subject of collaborating with the creators and the people shaping the story, that was something that I wanted to ask you more about because I'm really interested, you know, with David S. Goyer's role, like obviously, like a Titan of the superhero landscape, blade on onward. And obviously with Batman directly, you know, working on the Dark Night trilogy, among other Batman films, like particularly germane here, with the goal to bring this new fresh Batman story, not only in terms of the specifics of the story and the villain, but the medium, the platform, etc., to these legions of rabid, Cape Crusader fans,

I was curious to know what the conversations were specifically about your character in terms of why he was the character who was chosen to be the villain. Like, did Goyer tell you anything about why he wanted to feature the harvester in the first place? I haven't talked to the guy. I talked to Eric about this. I have talked to Goyer in my time, but that was when I was doing a VR project for Star Wars for him. And yeah, we just got into a debate about a certain Star Wars project and didn't agree.

That's like the only, it was a pleasant debate. It was a pleasant debate. It was not a contentious debate. We had a pleasant debate out of it. But yeah, he hired me or something. Someone hired me for the void, Darth Vader's Castle thing that we did. So, yeah, no, I haven't had a chance to talk to him about Batman. I certainly talked to Eric about it.

And as I recall, you know, Eric could tell you more specifically, because I don't remember as much. I'd recall him talking about them wanting a villain that really didn't have shoes to fill. So they could kind of do whatever they wanted. And apparently, Sturke is, I am not. that aware of what Stirk has been in. And I was not encouraged to become that aware of what, you know, they said, no, this is, this will be like your thing. It's whatever you decide it's going to be.

And, uh, and when I read the dialogue, you know, my impression has always been that I'm like, well, you should have not gotten me. You should have gotten Brad Durif. Uh, but hey, since you got me, I'll just do a, I'll just do what I think he would have done. I guess. I don't know. Because the fun, the fun of it is that when, when people, I guess, think of,

character that I would play. They tend to think of a darker voice and, I don't know, more, the sort of ballpark in which the performance will live. And so I was like, well, why don't we be in a completely different ballpark and make the voice very innocent and light? And so I thought that was the way to go with it. Interesting. I was wondering about the, you know, very vast rogues gallery.

only inside of Batman canon, but specifically adaptations and other performances. And I was curious, specifically from your perspective on that, how liberating was it to be portraying a character where there wasn't this like vast set of expectations from fans. Oh, well, this is the performance that I think of or this is the film that I maybe most associate with that character. Did it just feel totally freeing? But also I'm curious, like in tandem with that, even if it was a completely different villain or a different character. Were there any prior touchstones across the many Batman stories that we've gotten over time that did feel like really notable influences for you on the way that you portrayed the character?

More of an overall impression of stuff that I've read over the years, really. I don't know that I can think of a specific because I certainly, I never at one point thought, oh, he should be a little bit like the Joker, or he should be a little bit like Penguin here, you know, a little Edward Nigma, that never occurred. It was more this is, because it's, you know, it's the, it's the sort of boots on the ground, dark night detective version of Batman, right? We're not fighting dark side or the legions of aliens that are attacking Earth, you know. This is a serial killer whose motivations are him feeling very broken and like he needed to fix himself

and feeling compelled to do that. So we talked more about real-life examples of people who have done things like that. And I don't know that it's in very good taste to even name who we talked about because it's really disturbing stuff. I, yeah, I mean, look, character like this is not,

I guess it felt fun to see that the producers seemed happy when I started performing, I would look on the Zoom screen and people would be like they would be really into it. That was good. But I tried not to have too much fun. It's something that James Earl Jones one said in an interview. He says the mistake that actors make is they have too much fun with villains. And I always took that to mean the villains themselves are not having much fun with notable exceptions and there are always exceptions to circumstance. There are times when any character has fun.

However, it has always been my goal to show psychology rather than cut loose and it's, oh, it's what we're just like having a ball out there, which can be really fun with some actors to watch them, just go and have a ball, you know? But I don't know, the characters that I play, I really try to play it as if, like, A, they don't, think of themselves as the villain in any way. No, they're doing what they have to do. And B, what they have to do is sometimes very unpleasant. So they're getting through it. They're doing

what they have to do. And this guy is unfortunately doing what he has to do. And that's really not good for anyone. So, including him. That's really interesting because it is, you know, such a, again, like, harrowingly intimate and introspective story. And that you just mentioned psychology. it is a deeply psychological tale. And one of the things that I think has been most captivating about the first four episodes, and I've only listened to the first four that have aired so far, is this connection,

this thematic connection that has emerged between Bruce and the Harvester. This is like what we were talking about earlier, where a great Batman story is going to feel distinct. And I think this one undeniably does feel fresh and unique. But they also share these strands of, of essential DNA. And I think one of those strands of essential DNA across a great Batman yarn

can be a connection between Batman and the primary antagonist of a hidden story. And the Harvester seems quite drawn to Bruce so far because he identifies this kinship of sorts, like this sense of familiarity and the sea of loneliness around both of them. You know,

you have that really really like impactful line read in episode two where you say they don't feel what we feel me and my new friend. We like the dead. We like their company. We're the same. We like the night. What is it in your in your mind about Bruce that allows Cornelius to project himself on to Bruce and find those things to identify with despite being? Well, my God, look at the way Bruce dresses in the middle of the night. I mean, It's not hard for these villains to think that they have, in a way, a partner in crime. You know, no pun intended.

You know, again, having just seen the Batman, two or three nights ago, Paul Dano thinking that him and Batman were in caho. You know, I thought that was great. Of course they would think that. The Joker certainly thinks that to a certain extent. you know it's uh in reflecting back the darkness of what these um villainous characters are bringing into the night you know bruce is reflecting it back to them and trying to enhance it to make them scared of what it is that they're messing with you know um but you know that that whole thing that badman is making sure he doesn't go too far and uh and that there is a a benevolent force

controlling that darkness, you know. So yeah, yeah, tricky stuff. And depending on which Batman you're dealing with, you know, with mixed results, you know, it's like Michael Keaton killed a few dudes in Batman returns and in Batman in 89. He knocks some people down and into a bottomless pit in the middle of that church. We've recently had some very impassioned debates here at the Ring ofverse about exactly that because there's that great moment in peacemaker about, well, Batman's Rogue's Gallery can only keep escaping because he doesn't kill them. It's like, doesn't he? So when we play that DC Universe

All-Stars game, Austin Creed was like, hey, just straight up. And he announced this and, you know, later in the game. He's like, straight up, some of these guys aren't coming back. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, I'm sorry, I'm taking my bat shiriken and I'm going to be slitting some throats because I don't want to be doing this into my 50s. I was like, that's amazing. But it was hilarious the way that he was selling it. It was very, very funny. No, the Dark Night Returns story arc coming there, I guess. Yeah, he's like, no, I'm not doing dark. I'm not doing that. No, these guys are bad and no, we're not doing this. And again, we were all very, we're doing a lighthearted RPG thing. So no, he was not some sort of awful murderer. But it was hilarious where he was not pulling his punches. He was not doing that. You know, that makes me think, like, you've worked in all of these different mediums, all of these different types of project in terms of tone, in terms of platform. When you're reaching listeners for this project in particular via podcast, when you're voicing a character for a narrative pod, how does that compare to, again, we can stick with my, my fave mall, knowing that the audience will not have the accompanying visual, but will be transported by this fully realized soundscape. How does that impact your performance and your approach? Like, what are the unique challenges, but also what are the unique opportunities?

Well, you've got to make sure that whatever it is that you intend is, in fact, in the voice. And there are various ways you can perform. You mentioned being human. And I remember in first season, And, you know, Aden's voice was basically like this. And he just kind of talked like this and this and that. Because I was like, I'll transmit my information through the eyes. You know what I mean? He'll be expressive in the eyes. His voice, at least for a while, it's just going to kind of live right here.

Right. That wouldn't be a very good vocal performance. That would be, you know, so you have to make sure that whatever it is that you do, it is reflected even subtly in the voice. So for that reason, what I try to do is when I'm doing any of these things, is I try to remain very physically active when I'm behind the microphone. You know, moving my body a lot,

probably exaggerating my facial expressions, so that whatever it is that I'm doing will be imprinted on the voice a little bit. That's sort of how I go about that. So you have to do that, especially, you know, with Mall, that was kind of tricky too because, you know, he also has a very sort of contained voice.

And if I had gone too far with that containment, it might have been very boring, you know, the sort of, you know, the guy, I don't know. I had heard him described once by a reviewer as at once totally subtle and contained and at the same time totally over the top. And I'm like, yeah, that's a good way to describe it. I think it's both. But Sturke, the Harvester, needed to be, you know, because I kept it light and innocent,

I pictured this guy like he was psychologically very, very young. And little kids are more expressive with their voice than adults are. So that's sort of how I, because if it was just expression for expression's sake, then you start leaking into animated territory. And they made it clear they wanted this to be the film and TV territory in terms of the style of performance. That sort of was like, well, then he, yeah, if I make him younger, that that will grant me some room to be vocally expressive. while at the same time feeling real. Yeah, absolutely.

That's really illuminating. What about relatedly the sound design around your vocal performance? Like, how aware were you of what the sound direction and treatment was going to be? Were you aware at all? Not at all. Oh, wow. Okay. That's amazing because I just assumed that you would know what, because it sounds like

you're accounting for what that treatment is. I'm thinking of like specifically, I'll give you an example. Uh-oh. And you can walk us through what the actual process was. Oh, God. I know. Oh, God. Go ahead. The stomach, like consuming the stomach. It's like something I listened to for the first time while eating dinner, by the way. Oh, great.

Oh, congratulations. About my personal listening experience and how memorable it's been for me. But obviously, so much of that sound is actually coming from you and you are making these sounds. You are emoting. You are conveying this thing that is happening. But then there's all of this treatment and design around you. So when you're on Mike for that moment, you're not aware of what the end design will be. You are just conveying anything that you need to.

We talked about that moment. We talked about that moment. Yeah. No, I first of all, I had a bunch of fruit and stuff that I was slamming into my mouth. Oh, wow. Okay. And then I think we understood that someone was going to take a bowl of something and go with their hand. And, you know, they were going to do something like that. So there was going to be some help giving to that.

But yes, I was, in fact, making all kinds of awful, awful, terrible. uncomfortable sounds in front of the mic and was glancing in the Zoom as the producers were all grossed out. And so, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah. But the sound design and all that stuff and music and all that, that's all a great surprise when we hear it finally, you know, that our performances are supported and cradled by all this great stuff. I love that.

It's really great. It's an incredibly immersive soundscape and listening experience. It is. They did a great, great job. I was really happy with it. part of what that kind of sound design and that treatment and that production, you know, allows the listener, I think, to really focus in on. It's not distracting in any way. It ultimately enhances and amplifies the core themes, right? And you've talked about this a little bit already

today, but I am curious if there is a primary theme or message, you know, at least again through this point in the story. And I think certainly we should say this is a mystery. And there have been a lot of twists and turns already just through four episodes. Is it that element of you think you're missing something? That's it, right? Is it the element of when you say, I want you to find me, sir, only when I'm complete, that's searching for completeness? Is it, is it the fear and the way that fear can guide us, but also mislead us? Is it the way that every character is searching for something? Like what stands out to you, either for your character or the uniting threads across the characters as what core story Batman and Buried is, is interested in telling.

Well, you know, I can't actually go too deep into that without spoiling it a little bit, because it might not be exactly what everyone expects. So, unfortunately, I can't, you know. And also, and also, it's been a while since we did this. So I'm like, I don't know how equipped I am to answer that. I would be more equipped if you'd caught me on my way out from the session. But no, as I recall, there's some other thematic elements that have yet to be introduced. Interesting. Okay. Okay.

So, yeah, there's more to everything. It's pretty cool. Intriging. Intriging. Well, what? Okay. As I know we're down to our final minute or two here, what, if anything, being mindful of spoilers as you just were, what can you tell us? What can you tease for our listeners about what they can look forward to the rest of the way? No, I mean, they can look forward to being all kinds of creeped up by me. It's going to be amazing. You can be really uncomfortable and you could be driving your car and just uncomfortable or eating dinner with your family and uncomfortable.

Just if you want to feel uncomfortable, you know, I got you. No problem. Don't worry. I'm like, no, there's some there's some cool stuff. There's some cool stuff. But, you know, again, I fear saying much because I know what's coming and they don't. I don't want to spoil that at all. Yeah, this, this, I don't know, I really shouldn't say anything.

I shouldn't say anything more. I should not. Okay, all right. Diplomatically and nimbly handled. As our closing note here, this will give you a little more room to play. What are you enjoying right now? What are you, you are not only a generator of much content in the nerdverse. You are a consumer of it.

You love Star Trek. You love this stuff. We have a new Star Trek show right now. Yes, we have, you already mentioned the Batman. We have Obi-1 canobie. days away. What are you most enjoying or looking forward to right now as a fan? I had some work that took me out of the, I have not watched anything for two months. So it's why the Batman took me so long to get to because I had to do some stuff.

But so what am I enjoying, you know, coming out of that job, I did definitely run headlong into Strange New Worlds and was super delighted with the tone of that opening episode. really, really like that. You know, because it felt modern. And yet, if I squint my eyes, I'm back in the 60s show. And I'm so happy that they are finally, because look, I think there's been some incredible design in Star Trek recently. And Discovery is certainly a beautiful show.

And there's been all kinds of cool stuff. But I'm glad that it's like, guys, stop thinking the 60s show looks hokey. it looks awesome. It's beautiful to look at. Yes, okay, it's made of cardboard. But look at the colors. Look at the composition of the shots.

Look at the lighting. Look at these things. These are awesome things that you should be using. And so when I watch Strange New Worlds, I'm like, there you go. There you go. There's an aesthetic I haven't seen it a long time. There's colors. There's, you know what I mean?

Like, come on, guys. This is your, you know, these designs, people have overlooked them for years. Oh, the old phaser looks hokey. no, it doesn't. It actually looks awesome. And then you see the redesign. And it's basically the original design. And people are like, that's beautiful. The enterprise. The old girl, you squint, and that's the 60s enterprise. And you go, guys, it's about as perfectly proportioned a ship as you will ever get in the 60s, that version of the ship. So I'm glad that they're finally kind of, you know, because when you get new producers on stuff, everyone wants to reinvent anything,

I got to make it mine. I don't like this, so we're not going to do that. And I like this, so we're going to do that. It's nice when someone embraces the damn franchise that they're doing, you know what I mean? Because, yeah, boy, I got a real kick out of that show looking and feeling the way that it did. And then the performers are terrific. And, you know, the style of episode, I was so pleased that I watched a Star Trek episode where no one really shot at anyone. And you know what I mean?

this was more of a we have to talk our way out of it and express some ideas that's that's that's that's what i show up for star trek you got to remember i got to remember like you know this i became a star i became a star trek fan with star trek four which some people go like oh that's not really a star trek movie to which i go oh so trouble with tribles is not a star trek episode city on the edge of forever is not a star trek episode piece of the action is in a star trek episode and i could go on and on and on Star Trek 4 is the representation of all of those types of Star Trek episodes. It is the most Star Trek movie. And it's this weird thing with fandom where everyone wants, it's almost like as life takes a bite out of error, challenges you and you feel your mortality looming or you feel more and more vulnerable.

Fans then demand of their franchises to shore up their comfort. by making their franchise badass. It's got to be badass. Oh, I don't like Ewox because they're not badass. And you just go, well, that's a terrible story, but it's only badass. You know, I mean, all of these things can have moments of badassery, but like without tribbles, without Ewoks, without some yubnub.

We need it. Without some yubnob, without jar, without these bizarre, strange, wonderful, without giant orchids that will grab your ship and pull it down to the planet, which was the most bizarre Star Trek thing I'd seen it a long time. I'm like, that's just like a giant flower? Oh my God, it's grabbing the ship. Okay. You know, like without those things, these franchises are empty.

These stories are empty without that wonder and that fairy tale brightness and the, you know, the sort of beauty of these moments. And I think, again, the more vulnerable I, think, whether they would admit it or not, it's usually, oh, it's got to be badass because I'm badass. But like, no, you're not. You're vulnerable. You're afraid.

And that's why you feel like everything around you has to be tough, tough, tough, tough. No, man, get yourself, you know, get yourself an ewalk, you know, like the fairy tale nature of this stuff or like the whimsy, the strangeness, the unpredictableness, a big green space hand that grabs your ship. Come on, guys. That's what makes these things endure. and gives definition and makes the badass moments all the more badass when they happen because it's in a universe where all kinds of things can happen.

So there I am. There's a point of contrast. Oh, my God. I love it. Let me ask you this. Mandelor, you know, Mando's pretty badass. He's a badass character. Is that show, is that show one eighth is good without Grogu?

I mean, you can see I have more than one grogoo behind me at all moments. And, you know, I would like to spend the. bulk of my time watching Grogu eat a blue macaroon in the middle of season two. Like that's the single greatest surge of joy I can imagine. Or playing with the other children on Sanctuary because that's what, I agree with you completely. That's what fills a story with the kind of details and emotions and relationships and connections that makes it feel like real, real life. Yeah.

And it's, it's 1977 and Star Wars comes out. And Hollywood's like, wow, what a movie. We get it. End movies with an explosion. And then you're going to make a million dollars. This is amazing. You know what? Let's have a movie that's like has three explosions.

No, you know what? Make it six. No, you make the whole damn movie explosions. We'll make so much more money than Star Wars because that's, I guess, how you do it. You put an explosion in it. Because at the end of that movie was an explosion. And you're like, no, it's everything leading up to the explosion that makes the damn movie. come on, guys.

You know, and you just, you see people completely miss the point. If the Ewarks don't exist, why does anyone fight for that universe? You don't what I mean? If wonder and warm feelings, if they don't exist, what is the definition of the whole story? What are the good guys fighting for at all? Why are we even here if that doesn't exist? You know, it's, and it's, yeah, such a fundamental misunderstanding of storytelling. I love it. I'm with you, man. The shot really only lands on the Death Star if you've spent those moments with Luke like looking at the binary sunsets, right, and hearing the Force theme kick in.

Did you know that there were forces at 20th Century Fox? This is so amazing. So Lucas actually, when he was pushing ILM to try to create that movie, he started prioritizing certain shots from the end battle with the Death Star. And they were like, well, we're not ready for that. He's like, no, you have to make these shots now. Why? Because if we don't spend money on the end, Fox is going to cut the end. Because Fox's point of view was, well, they rescued the princess. Roll credits. Well, the princess got in trouble in the beginning of the movie and then all the stuff. And they rescued the princess. Then you don't, this whole end thing with the death star? Who cares?

Get rid of it. Pick it out. We're going to save a million dollars. It's going to be amazing. What an alternate history that is. Wow. Right. And, you know, the whole use the force thing and believing in yourself.

and a young person having to step up and become an adult for the first time in their life and believe in themselves and all of that was completely lost on these people who were saying cut the ending. But again, it's the whole fundamental misunderstanding of how storytelling works. You know, it's I remember, you know, again, with Maul bringing him back and people were like, well, I remember there were some people who were like, this spider thing, man. This isn't mall. Why would they even call it mall? They ruined the character.

And we knew they were going to say that. And we're just like, so you would have rather have us just, he just shows up fully for him and he goes, hello boys, I'm back. That's your version of Star Wars. Okay. So, you know, it's, anyway, it's bringing this

around to Batman. You know, I feel like you know, one of the things that this story does do that's cool is Batman is as much defined by the people who support him and love him as he is defined by the suit that he wears. And we get that later on. We get all kinds of stuff that that underlines that point that, you know, that Batman is not in this alone. I hope that doesn't spoil too much.

That feels pretty safe. I think that's a good tease without risking anything. It connects exactly to what you were just saying about a fully realized world and a well-told story. So I think that's That's right, right. Nothing against stories where Batman's all on his own. Those can work as well. But you do have to create a world in which all of this is, you know, is credible. I mean, hell, at the, you know, one of the things about the Batman movie that we just saw with Robert Pattinson is at the end when, you know, that person he saved is reaching up and he puts his hand on her hand that he's looking at her. And I remember at that point, I'm like, now I get why it was cool that he's wearing basically an Adam West cowl.

this cow is very much like Adam West's cow. And I'm like, what do you? Well, I mean, that's a weird choice. And then at the end, when he's like, I have to become more. And I'm like, he's wearing, wait, he's wearing the Adam West cowl. He's, he's understanding that he needs to become more Adam West than the dark night than the guy who's going around and scaring the hell out of everyone. He's being so badass that he's being misinterpreted by the bad guys. Anyways, sorry.

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I wonder if he, uh, if, uh, if, uh, if he, uh, if he mobbed. his his Batmobile off of the 60s West. There's some yeah, some aesthetic through lines there as well. So I don't know if Pattinson's Batman is going to have to battle a shark while climbing a rope ladder from a helicopter at any point. But I can't wait to find out.

But he's ready if he does have to, I feel like. But you know, that was the wonderful. That's the thing I liked best about the movie was this implication. that he needed to come out of the shadows and he needed to actually really declare whose side he was on very publicly to a point where he was not encouraging people to be afraid of him.

He was doing the opposite. I thought that was awesome. The toll of the pursuit of vengeance, absolutely, and really interrogating what message you're sending. And I think, again, it's a thrill line because nothing really happens in a vacuum and the stories that feel intimate and small

and grip us through that sense of self and self-examination, there's a world that those characters you're living in and seeing the way they interact with it and the way they realize that world is looking back at them is, I think, so fascinating. So, Sam, we would love to have you back to talk about stories and world-building with us any time that you care to join.

Standing invite, thank you so much for popping into the ring of verse to chat, Batman, I'm buried, and the Harvester with us today. It was a blast. All right, nice to talk to you. Thanks for your patience. All right. There you have it, Joe. We did it.

I chatted with Sam Whitwer about Batman Unburied. You chatted with Jordan Hoffman about Star Trek. What a show. What a time. I don't want to promise anything that we haven't locked down

into stone yet, but I do, I think our plans are to have like some other stuff on the horizon where we cover, you know, broader fandoms. That's our hope.

Our hope always is for the show to, You know, there's so much going on. We can't possibly cover everything, but we want to cover more and more if we can. So I think I can say, right, that that's a hope and a plan for the future. This is merely a taste in a moose bush, if you will, forgive my terrible French accent of what's to come. So yeah. You've now mentioned in a moose, a delectable, scrumptious salad.

Can you tell we're recording at lunchtime, folks? We're hungry. It's time to eat. Come back. over the next few days, the next few weeks, the next few months, just spend all your time here with us in the Ring of Verse. We have so many chats and conversations coming for you here on the feed. Follow us across all of our social channels.

You know the drill. You know the drill by now. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we go. Yeah. One thing that just occurred to me that I, like, must get you to talk to me about. Oh, my God. I have no idea what I'm going to say.

Well, inspired by our pal, Ben Lindberg. in our ringer slack. And speaking of slack. I mean, this is dangerous. You're going to bring this up and we're going to talk for an hour. No, no, no, we're not going to do that. But okay, so like, Obi-Wan's coming, right? This is the thing that's looming on the horizon.

Our entire lives has been building up to this moment. Nothing, you know, I think I've been podcasting with Mallory long enough so that I can say nothing in our lives has ever been more important or will it be more important than the premiere of Obi-Wan on Disney Plus. You know, each shit when I graduated from college, each shit when Mallory got married, who cares. Like, Obi-1 premieres days.

That's not much of a contest. Oh, God. In the lead up to, you know, the cast, or at least four cast members have been doing some press abroad in Europe. One,

E. McGregor, one Hayden Christensen. And Moses Ingram and Deb Chow, et cetera, et cetera. But the boys,

the boys are back in town. The boys from the prequels are back together, looking incredible. So just quick, Mallory, your thoughts on galactic trousers. Fitwatch is on

and fit watch enthusiasts are thriving. The amount of ankle and sock we're seeing, this is something that Juliette Lipman despises. She talks about this every season of The Bachelor.

Why are we seeing so much ankle? Why are these pants crops so high? What is happening? But I love it. I am very, very, very very, very here for it. And I have been delighted by the fits and particularly the pant choices that we have seen so far across this pre-premier tour. It is a source of delight. As

you mentioned, Ben dropped a slack into Ringer Star Wars slack. And basically, to paraphrase, said, why do we even have this slack if we're not constantly posting these photos and talking about them with each other? To which I replied, oh, Joanna and I are texting about them constantly and then realized that probably made him feel worse, not better. Sorry, Ben, we'll be including you in those conversations in the future now that we know you want to participate. Rest assured, they have our attention. And I tweeted about this, but there's this viral quote going around of like you and giving an answer about the prequels and how they were so maligned when they came out and how it's

been so nourishing to him to see like the generation that grew up with them, actually liking them. I've heard him give that answer before. I get a little emotional every time I hear it because even though I don't really like the prequels, like, you know, you know, it's tough to work really hard on something, especially to be like cast in a Star War. Not only that, but like, I'm Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Hayden is Darth Vader. Like, you know, this is this huge. Right. And then for for those movies to crash and burn, at least critically, the way that they did. So, you know, to have the younger generation who grew up with them, sort of reclaim them, rehab them. Again, I don't care for a lot of them, but they're bright spots in all those movies. and I can appreciate that.

So to watch Hayden give that, to watch you and give that answer and to watch Hayden watch you and give that answer. One of my favorite Star Wars Celebration moments ever was from, I think it was in Chicago. I think it was that one

where they brought Hayden out for the first time since the original prequel. Because Hayden went into Star Wars hiding after the prequels, basically. And they brought him out on stage and the whole, like, the place Explan,

and Hayden's face being like going from Star Wars pariah to Star Wars like reclaimed hero I get emotional thinking about it so I'm I mean like I don't know what's going to happen this will be one series we'll we'll try to judge it as fairly as as our biased hearts can but my emotion about Hayden and his and his reclamation tour you know will not be I agree completely it is incredibly touching. Adam just opened the door in the middle of mirror. I told him I was recording a podcast and it just brought me two meatballs, which is very sweet, but super weird timing. I don't know why that as he said. It's lunchtime. A moose-boosh time, maybe. All right. I'm interested you. That was,

I'm glad, I'm glad that we, I'm glad that we took a few moments to talk about that, both the fashion and the incredibly, uh, incredibly touching. It's emotional. It is. It is. I can't wait to talk about Obi-1 with you every week. I truly can not wait. What a time it's going to be. What a summer. What a summer awaits. Thank you to Jordan Hoffman for joining Joanna. Thank you to Sam Whitwer for joining Mallory. And thank you, of course, to Carlos Chiraboga and Arjuna Ramgapal for producing and assisting with production on today's episode. Come back to the ringerverse in the coming days, the coming weeks, the coming months. And until then, Joe, give us. us some sort of Star Trek reference to go out on here. Your prime directive should you choose to accept it is to watch Tracy World's. Let me know what you think.

Let me know what you think of the wigs. Let me know you think. Let me let me know you think of Anson's hair. Let me know what you think of Ethan Peck, Gregory Peck's grandson as Mr. Spock. Yeah. And I will let you know what my bat theories are. And we will reconvene back here together. I love that.

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