The Ringer-Verse - Face-Your-Fears Game Swap: ‘Braid’ and ‘Outlast’| Button Mash

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

In their first in-person podcast recording, Ben Lindbergh and Jessica Clemons deliver an update on Jess’s love life in ‘Baldur’s Gate 3’ (4:43), discuss whether 2023 is shaping up to be an all-time-great gaming year (9:33), and then review the results of their first game swap, in which Jess faced her hang-ups about puzzle-solving to play puzzle-platform classic ‘Braid’ and Ben confronted his fears to play survival-horror standout ‘Outlast’ (17:55). Hosts: Ben Lindbergh and Jessica Clemons Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I am Ben Lindberg, a senior editor at The Ringer, and I'm joined, as always, by Jessica Clemens, except this isn't the same as always, because for the first time ever, Jessica's joining me and I'm joining Jess, not from across a continent, but from across a table in a tiny podcast studio. In the same place. Hello.

Hi, we are in the same place. Also, maybe it's because we're in the same place that I've noticed that you just introduced yourself as senior editor. Yes. And I should be introduced as senior host. You could call yourself whatever you want. Senior host, that sounds good to me. I am the senior house. But yeah, we're in Stockholm, Sweden.

Yeah, I'd love to call you senior host because that would make me feel not quite as old and senior. But yes, this is like the end of Return of the Jedi when Anakin asked Luke to take his helmet off so he can look at Luke with his own eyes just once. It's just for once. We're taking off our headphones and turning off our cameras so we can see, hear each other with our own eyes and ears. So this is a special. And we had to come all the way to Sweden to do this. Yeah, this does seem kind of backwards. We could have just met in the middle. It is a little out of the way. You live in L.A. I live in New York. You'd think if we were going to podcast in person, it would be in one of those cities or, yeah, we'd meet in the middle somewhere. Middle America, like Nebraska or Oklahoma or Kansas, wherever is halfway between. But no, we're both in Sweden because there's a ringer slash Spotify event. Half the company is here. We're in Stockholm. And it feels like home because we are in a dark room with microphones in front of our faces instead of enjoying the sights of a beautiful city and country.

We're locked inside. This is kind of our natural habitat, even if we're far from home. Absolutely. Absolutely. And appropriately, our hotel has a podcast studio. This is, I guess, the new amenity now. It's not even that uncommon, I guess. You have your fitness center and your pool and your room service and your podcast studio.

Is this how you know that everyone truly has a podcast now? Or maybe they just heard half the ringer staff was coming to town. So they just built a studio fest because they knew we would need one. Or maybe it was Spotify chose this hotel. They're like, oh, it has a podcast studio. So we can drop a beat really quick. Right. I had to ask several employees of the hotel where the podcast studio was and how to get in it.

It's like discovering a secret level in a video game or something. No one knows that this exists. They're like a podcast? Yeah, I know. They're thrilled. It's like, wow, someone actually came and wants to use the podcast studio. Here we are. I know that we're stuck on the podcast studio, but I just think it's very cute and funny

and interesting that there's like travelers that see it and go, you're right. I should talk about this. And then they asked to come in here and they're like, we don't even know what that is. What are you looking at? We're watching people go by just outside in the sunlight, just like, staring at us like we're in a zoo exhibit. We should stay here. Podcasters in their natural environment.

Yeah. We're crammed in this tiny room. We'll put some pictures up on social so people can tell. And our producer, Carlos, is in here too. It's already getting stuffy. It's going to get hot and sweaty by the time we're done here. Oh, I talk about Boulder's Gate. Yeah.

Just say that's appropriate. Well, it's wonderful to meet you in MeatSpace after our many meetings on screens. And, of course, wherever we are in the world, with our powers combined, we are button mash. And today we're trying something a little different. A video game exchange program, a game swap. Each of us played a game we wouldn't normally play at the other's invitation or insistence. You played the puzzle platform classic Braide.

I played the Survival Horror Classic Outlast. And we're going to talk about what we thought and how frustrated and traumatic and terrified it was. So thanks to all of you for the many. millions of podcasts out there and hotel-produced podcasts for choosing ours today. We appreciate it. But because we're in the same place, we've actually been talking IRL off mic, and we've been grabbing breakfast, and over one of our meals, you gave me an amazing update on your Balders Gate 3 love life that I feel like you have to share with everyone. Okay. First off, is there going to be an episode where we get really into Boulder? Yes. Okay. Probably next time. Okay, good. Okay, then I will not get very

into it. You guys know that Boulder's Gay, everyone's been talking about it. It's a hit. It's very fun. You get companions, you can be a companion, you can build your own person, it's super fun. It's warning, super addictive. For me, because

they allowed sex in the game. And like in real life, I want to be the coolest person. So I'm trying to hook up with my companions. And not all of them, just one. And I think everyone knows which one it is. It's a stereo. Because online, there are YouTube videos. There's so many tweet threads, X, X threads, about how you can be with Astyrian,

because Astyrian is really hard to get with. He will reject you. And I have found the key to it. I'm not going to say it right now, because I'm going to see if it works. And then we will talk about it later, but Boulder's Gate is amazing. It looks beautiful. The storyline is so fun. And when you choose to play as a companion rather than make your own character, which I know everyone wants to make their own character, you get a little bit more goals and more reasons to do what you're doing, and the narrator wants to see that through with you. So I'm playing as Shadow Heart instead of my normal companion or my normal self, and it's very fun playing as Shadow Heart. She's a cleric, and I normally also never play as a cleric. I only play as a fighter, so this was very good for me.

Amazing game. You're a lover, not a fighter now, or you want to be, you're trying to be. Oh my God. Now I'm going to switch my character because you said that. That's true. Oh, my God, Boulder's Game made me switch like that. I love that everyone's like the unlimited possibilities in this game. Like, I can do anything. Finally, it's fulfilling all my dreams and hopes for what an RPG could be. And you're just like, I'm going to spend 20 hours trying to have sex with this one character. Okay.

That's like, and this is also the funny part where I'm like, I can't wait for you to play it because you're going to definitely come out of a different angle. I read like romance. I read fan fiction. I read like manga romance. Any enemy to lover stories. These are all like my go-to. so when you give me an RPG, chances are I'm trying to make my character fall in love with someone else. I can be romantic.

You just haven't seen that side of me. No, no, no, no, Ben, I know you can't. But I know that you'll also play the game to be like, Jessica, I'm looking at the regions. And I'm like, well, I'm looking for love. I'm waiting for the console version, but I'm sure I'll get into it. But what I've heard from people is that it's almost too easy to have sex in this game. Like, you can have sex with almost everyone. Like, everyone wants you all the time.

And it doesn't feel like a genuine relationship. because it's just like it's superficial. It's like anyone will hook up immediately. Well, that's the thing. I think that's the chase that a lot of people like in it is the certain characters that you do want to hook up with are very specific. And they're like, you have to be in my good graces first.

So you have to do a lot of things that make me like like you as a person. There's a character named Liselle who's really like hardcore. She's super cool. She hates me. And it's because I'm too nice to her. And I would love to have a nice, lovely evening date in our bedroll cot, but like she does not like me. And but then there are some characters that are like, hey, I'm just down for whatever.

And I'm like, no, I need the chase. I want people to want me. People are already speed running sex in Baldur's Gate 3. It's like, I guess time to completion could refer to sex or how fast you beat the game. But it's like there's like a, you know, any percentage, like I beat the game with any percentage complete. And then there's just like sex percentage, like how fast I could get someone to sleep with me. It's like, I think as we record now, it's down to like a little over four minutes, right? Oh, my God.

It started at eight minutes. It's like, I mean, it's faster to have sex in Baldur's Gate 3 than in real life, I guess, depending on the person. I'm not speaking from experience there, but I mean, it's just a new challenge now. How fast can I sleep with someone? And I'm using sleep with as a euphemism. Yes. What a world that we live in that like the game with or without sex is exceeding my expectations. I'm having very much fun.

It's really hard after the pandemic to get a group back to play tabletop or D&D. And so this is really good for me as a solo person that loves D&D. And without the sex, I'm like, I love this. But then you put sex in the game and you see how people are acting. I know it's been tough for you to come to Sweden and not have access to Baldur's Gate. You've been in withdrawal. So we appreciate the sacrifice. Of course, of course.

And we'll get into the game even more next time. Probably hopefully we'll be able to do a big. RPG blowout episode for Baldur's Gate and Starfield. But I wanted to say that just given how much fun people are having with Baldersgate, it seems like we're in what's shaping up to be potentially one of the best video game release years ever. I mean, it's just been nonstop bangers, right? And I'm not even referring to the sex in Baldur's Gate. Ben, I swear to God.

It's like we go from, you know, gigantic RPGs that you could play for an entire year. So you have your Tears of the Kingdom and you have Baldur's Gate and you have Diablo 4. And I think when Tears of the Kingdom came out and got such rapturous reviews, everyone assumed, OK, this is the game of the year. And in most years, I think it would have been a shoe-in. Then Baldur's Gate came out and said, not so fast. Tears the Kingdom and Balders Gate 3 are now neck and neck and Metacritic score. So in almost any other years, Zelda might have won in a walk.

This year, there's some stiff competition, which is also not supposed to be a Balders Gate sex joke. So we have those. We have like the highlights, but also the day. depth of a great games year. You also have Street Fighter 6, right? And these other sequels that have been years in the making, Final Fantasy 16, Pickman 4, all these games we've talked about, or some of the genre sort of IP-based games that have been popular and successful, Jedi Survivor and Hogwarts Legacy, and then a lot of

surprises, like Dave the Diver and High Fight Rush, all these games that have kind of taken people so I surprise and been pleasant surprises. And then lots of good sequels, too, like Oxen Free 2, and an Octopath Traveler 2 and Remnant 2. There's just a lot and we're in August. So this could be an all-timer. I think great games coming out this year and also newswise, just like in Gollum, like existing. I think this is a, it's a crazy year for gaming.

And I want to know why specifically 2023 was the year because even like Final Fantasy coming out, I was like, whoa, why 2023? Right. Why this year? I forgot, yeah, some of the remakes and remasters too. Dead Space and Resident Evil 4 and Metroid Prime and Advance Wars 1 and 2. And again, it's not like we see the big game releases concentrated just in the holidays as much anymore, because it just takes so long to make games now and sequels that you put them out when

they're done or close to done in some cases. So there are many more still to come over the rest of this year, right? We have Armored Corps six comes out this week, Starfield in a couple weeks, Mortal Kombat won a couple weeks after that. October is absolutely loaded, right? You have New Assassin's Creed, you have Lords of the Fallen, you have Spider-Man 2, you have Super Mario Brothers Wonder, Alan Wake 2.

It's just completely stacked. And I guess my only theory is that people were sort of saying the opposite last year, right? There were a lot of games delayed, and all the games that got delayed last year are coming out this year all at once. On top of the games that were already like, oh, we're not delayed. We are actually coming out. Video games are ruling in 2023, whether it's in adaptations and in just like actual video games.

I'm like, whoa, this is a year that video games are blasting. I just don't remember being like so overwhelmed. Yeah. So overwhelmed. To start a gaming podcast, I guess. We've got great timing. You even have some games, I guess it's not unheard of, but games that are rearranging themselves on the release schedule so that they can get out of the way of other games.

Like the PC version of Baldur's Gate coming out a month earlier, which Larian said was so we would have more time to play. and everyone read between the lines and was like, oh, you mean before Starfield comes out? And now Alan Wake 2 just got delayed 10 days. And Remedy said, October is an amazing month for game launches, and we hope this date shift gives more space for everyone to enjoy their favorite games. So we're just like moving things up, delaying things,

because the calendar is so crowded and loaded. And I don't know how it'll all end up. But when you think about the best game years of all time, I guess the ones that get mentioned most often, And 98 was a big one. So several years ago, I guess five years ago at the Ringer, we did like a 20th anniversary retrospective series on all the great 98 games.

And it was a very long list, right? You had Grintorismo and you had StarCraft and Banjo Cazooey, a favorite of ours. I love it. SoulColver and Pokemon Red Blue and Grimfinango, Medergil Salad, Half-Life, Ocarine of Time. Oh, my God. The original Balders Gate, right?

Thief, many more, too. And then I guess... Oh, that was a good year. That was a great year. 2007 is known for Super Malo Galaxy and The Witcher, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, Bioshock, Modern Warfare, Halo 3, a favor of ours. So I don't know if this will end up ranking... I think this one's really good.

2007 sticks with me because that was when I was in middle school and I was like this was my peak gaming experience. So that was really good. But that 98 is insane. That's in Vuevaire. Yeah. I think this one, I think this year would take second in my book. Second of my book. Because that came at a time when we were transitioning from 2D to 3D.

And so a lot of those games, it's like, Ocreen of Time. Oh, this is how you do Zelda in 3D. It's like really influential games with great legacies. And again, it depends, I guess, on how old you were when those games came out and when you were playing them and what you remember and the nostalgia and everything. But this year, this year is really working out. I'm sorry. This year is between Diablo, Boulder's Gate, and I'm probably missing. Honestly, tears of the kingdom were really, like, I can't. It was, it was a phenomenal year. Yeah. Phenomal year for us.

So we're going to have plenty to talk about for the rest of this year, and we are psyched and we are hyped for some of the games that are still coming. But this week, we thought we would step out of the release rush for a minute. We would get away from the conveyor belt, the assembly line of all these huge hits that are coming out. And we would do a little game swap exercise, which we haven't done before. And we thought this would be fun. I will just give you our programming notes so that you know what's coming, not just in the video game world, but also in the ringerverse. So Haasavar has its own feed now. What?

What? So Asa Var has started a solo career as a duo, I guess. Not really. They're still part of our band. but there will be multiple House of Our episodes in the typical week now. So the first House of Our as a solo act should be up around the same time you're hearing this episode. So Mal and Joe will be recounting some of Assocato's top moments in preparation for Asoka. And then they'll be back on Friday with their deep dive on the first two episodes.

This week before that on the Ringiverse feed, the Midnight Boys will be discussing Asoka themselves on Wednesday. And of course, you can read my Asoka recap. at the ringer.com. What a great website. You'll also hear me pop up on House of R sometimes talking about lore in Asoka. So we're going all in on this show. And you can also follow Ringervor's on Instagram and elsewhere to see some video character primers that a few of us have been doing. Me and Mal and Van and maybe others are giving you a quick little snapshot of who these characters are if you're just catching up on the animated world. So I'm psyched for Asoka. Are you excited?

I'm excited. I said, once. I'll say it twice. I'll say it again. Star Wars is very great. I love Star Wars. I cannot retain any of the information from Star Wars because my brain is half for DC and half for Marvel Comics. And so I don't have any more in video games. So I have no room for any other fandom. But so anytime I watch Star Wars for me, it's kind of new except for the characters because I remember the characters. But like storyline-wise, sometimes I'm like, wait, what? Yeah. What's going on? But I'm very excited for this.

I, it's also because I love Rosario Dawson, that I'm like, I need everything about this to be astounding. I needed to be perfect. I hope and think that it will be. She's cool as hell. So I'm literally like, you can't ruin. Like, even the last time we saw her, she was cool as hell. Like, you cannot ruin her.

She's too cool. All right. Well, we're going all in the full court press. Follow all our coverage of Asoka, all the various platforms. And of course, you can email us at ringerverse gaming at gmail.com to contact me and Jessica, talk about video games, and remember to follow House of R on its own feed now. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session.

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New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. So our game swap, what we wanted to do was introduce each other to something that we probably wouldn't otherwise play for one reason or another because the world of video games contains multitudes, right? When someone says they're a gamer, that could mean so many things. Your experience, my experience could not overlap. That could mean you're playing mobile games while you're commuting to work. It could mean you're a hardcore PC gamer.

It could mean you only play console stuff. It could mean you've tried out some genres. You're all in on other genres. So I think video games are unusual, if not unique, in that respect. You know, if you're talking about movies or something, you're not going to just be like, I've never seen a comedy. I'd like to check out a comedy someday, right? But even someone who hates horror movies has probably seen one at some point, right?

Your friends were watching it or it was on TV, it was on an airplane. So willingly or unwillingly you were exposed to that. But a game, you have to really opt in, right? You have to make a conscious decision. This is what I want to play. And so there are things that, I mean, series genres that we have had very little exposure to, despite being lifelong gamers. So we thought this would be a way to confront our fears and be exposed to new experiences.

And we each picked a game for each other that's about five hours average playtime, according to how long to beat. Because again, busy games here. We have a lot to play. We know everyone listening is busy. And if people want to play along, we didn't want to burden them with some gigantic game in the middle of all the gigantic games we've been playing. And I'm kind of famous, infamous for not playing horror games. So, of course, immediately you said you're going to be playing a heart game. I said, okay, I will do that for you.

And for the audience to create content, I will subject myself to that. Oh, no, don't act like, oh, don't do it for the content. And I told you that I am horrible at puzzle games. I hate, who likes looking stupid? You know what I'm saying? Like, no one wants to look in a mirror and be like, oh, wow, I'm a dummy. So I hate playing, like, actual intense puzzle, puzzle games. Yeah, I feel that way about trivia.

I don't play trivia that much. Because it's just like, I feel bad about myself. I feel ignorant. It's like, I don't want my, the holes in my knowledge to be exposed. I mean. Yeah, exactly. Also, I realized I said that. And then we started with saying, like, I love horror games.

Right. Horror games can be confusing a lot of the times, you guys. And it is sometimes that I do feel dumb on a lot of horror games, too. It's just that, like, with horror games, at least I'm like, okay, let me just run around. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's not quite as intense.

But we could start with brain. Because, yeah, when I said, like, what's a horror game to you? What's the equivalent of that? For me, what's that for you? And you said something that has, like, really intense puzzles. And I wouldn't say that's my favorite genre, but I'm less scared of that than I am of horror. And so immediately I thought of Brage because that's a classic. It's a quintessential puzzle platform game.

Just a brief bit of background. This came out August of 2008, so it just turned 15 this month. It's an indie game developed by Jonathan Blow with art by David Hellman. It's playable everywhere, basically, on all platforms now. And it's an indie trailblazer. You may have seen Indie Game The Movie, which is a documentary about making indie games. He was heavily featured in that. There's supposedly an anniversary edition coming out later this year, maybe early next year,

so people can wait to play that potentially. But this game really came along at a time when it established that you could make indie games without a huge budget, without a lot of infrastructure, and they could be critically acclaimed and you could make a lot of money because there were platforms like Xbox Live Arcade that this could come out and get great reviews and be a huge hit. So it sort of influenced a lot of subsequent indie creators. It's a 2D side scroller, kind of an old school look, right? But how would you describe the gameplay of Braid? Braid is phenomenal. I didn't say this at the beginning. You guys, I'm in Sweden, Stockholm, so I drank a lot the night before.

So that is why my voice is, like, iffy. But I'm fine. But Braid is phenomenal. I remember as soon as I downloaded it, it's on Steam. It's not that much money. So it's available on Steam being it on your computer. It will at first alter, of course, your resolution and do all those things. So make sure you're prep for that.

But it's so pretty. I think the one downside to the game. It was I wasn't introduced to, like, you stop time. I accidentally pressed a button that paused things. And I went, oh, wait, okay. And then I started playing. It didn't really like tell me anything. But then I did kind of like that because I was like, oh, okay. And at first, easy to play. This game is, you're basically grabbing a key. You're grabbing puzzles. You're going through doors for people that have never played it or heard of it. And your entire mission is to save a princess. And you're like, I need to go save this princess. And

you're doing it through like storytelling and beautiful imagery and just like, like Mario fighting these Goomba-like characters and jumping over like rockets. And it's gorgeous. But I felt very dumb after the second round. Luckily, this game is so old that everyone's played it. So when I was like literally about to throw my head through the computer screen,

I would just look up someone doing the gameplay. And I was like, okay, how am I supposed to do that? Like, that doesn't make sense. And it's one of those games that even watching someone else play, you watch them make the mistake a hundred times before actually getting it done perfectly. So you watching someone do it isn't even cheating because you will probably not be able to do it

or you'll be doing it for like an hour. But it was still like, it's so quick. It's such a quick game, so fun for storytelling. And the reveal at the end that I didn't know was a reveal, I knew he was a bad boyfriend. Right, yes. Yeah, one of the all-time twists in video games, although I guess it didn't seem like a twist to you

because you saw it coming the whole time. Well, yeah, keep going, continue, what is it? you're chasing this, this princess, right? This whole time that you think you're rescuing her. And then it turns out she's actually running away

from you the entire time, right? I love how they did it at the end. Oh my God. This was astounding of like, you realize you're the bad guy. But you're also getting this image, the images, these images,

you're making the puzzles and it's like clearly this man like not only like, he's drinking in every single image, but like is going downhill spiraling. And you're like, okay. But also, the first story you read, like, because you go through these doors, right? And then you're looking at

these books, and every book has a little text, has a little passage. And like, the first one we read was like how he was a bad boyfriend. And he was like, I left and I should have returned. And I was like, oh, he left her. And then later, there's another part where he's like, not at the end, he brings up like, oh, I was like suffocating her, but like he brings up a lot of things where it's like, oh, she doesn't want me here, but I'm going to continue. And I kept being like, no, we're trying to articulate in a beautiful way while you're overbearing. Like, you're constantly at her when she doesn't want you there. And so I was like, okay, he is a bad boyfriend. So I guess he's going to just save her. And I guess that's bad on my part that I assume that the creator was just going to make

a story where it's like, this man's the savior. I genuinely was like, I can't believe Ben recommended a game where we're just going to let this man just like chisel this poor woman down until she says yes. And then it wasn't at the end they were wow in time and you see that like she's trying to get away from him that she's put all these things in places so like he couldn't get to her. She was like, I don't want to be with you. The night that's a monster you think is a monster, but is not actually the monster. He's my savior. And I was like, oh my God. And then also there's an atomic bomb. Yeah, there's alternate interpretations of the ending, which we can talk about. But I think that was a big part of the intention behind the game was to take these tropes and expectations from games and kind of turn them on their heads a little bit.

So you think you're saving the princess. The princess is in another castle, right? And their references to Mario and Dougie Kong. And then you think it's, oh, it's another one of these. And then it's not. Right. So that's with the narrative. That's with the gameplay too.

I mean, just pulling back a bit when it comes to puzzles, what's your stance? Because you don't mind some puzzles, right? I mean, you appreciate a challenge. but I guess would you prefer the challenge to be more about the physical act of playing and the coordination than solving something? Because you love Zelda, right?

I mean, that's very puzzle heavy. Well, is it? Yeah, well, yeah. Well, yeah. That one's interesting. That one's interesting. Because it's like in Tears of the Kingdom, there's a million ways you could have done it, right?

They were like, oh, you have to do this thing and you can either shoot through the ceiling brick or you can like build a crazy character that flies in the middle of there like there. There are so many alternatives and in this game it's like no you have to do it this way. And I was like okay like Dr. Strange like there's a million ideas but only one is the one you're supposed to do and I was and that's what I think the puzzle part that I can't do. It's like there's one answer and I'd rather have a million different versions. Yes. Yeah. Old school Zelda was more like that where there was one solution to something and you had to use a specific tool to

get past it, but now there's more choice. Yeah. And in Braid, it's been a while since I played it. I played it when it came out, but you can skip some puzzles, right? I mean, you don't have to solve all. Like, you get greater rewards if you solve them, but you can just bypass them if you're banging your head against the wall. The first one, I just gave up.

And then I was like, I think if I'm playing this game, I should try to get every puzzle. So that's why I was going to throw my head through the computer screen. You guys can easily play this game. not get the puzzles, but I think it adds so much to the story. You don't have to do it. Absolutely not at all. If you get like me and you want to like cut your cables out of anger, you could do that. But like the image is really added to this like, oh my God.

And I love that story. I love that. I love that idea. I love that flip on the head of like the princess was getting away from you. Yeah. Oh my God. Maybe it was that reveal of me being like, man, what you recommended me this? game. Like,

go to give this game with this man. I wouldn't, I wouldn't lead you astray. I'm going to make a good recommendation for you. It was really good. And I think you should do the puzzles. I think you guys should try doing the puzzles as much as you can.

Yeah, because there are games where the puzzles are just sort of a side thing, you know, just like an answer. It's not the main draw. It's like I just have to get through this puzzle so that I can get back to doing the thing that I'm actually here for. But in Braid, it's not the, it's the only draw, but it's kind of the main draw. It's like, you know, playing Braid and not doing the puzzles. It almost defeats the purpose, right?

It's pretty to look at. I mean, I generally feel like play games however you want to play. You know, whatever fulfills you, however you find it satisfying to play. I'm definitely not someone who's like, you've got to play on the max difficulty level. Otherwise, no, however you want to get through the game, however, whatever floats your boat is fine. But that is one of the big selling points of a game like this. So I don't know that you would like it as much if you did skip that. And I was going to ask you about walkthroughs and looking things up because I think,

Jonathan Blow was kind of anti-walk-through with this game. He discouraged it just because he felt like the epiphany, like the eureka moment, the feeling of satisfaction that you get when you solve it. Sir, no, no. And you can say, and that's what I, I love him because this game is literally, it's so gorgeous, it's so quick,

I love this. But I'm also like, yeah, you can say that because you make games, you love making these puzzles, you guys hit these walls. The thing is like, I would love to be like that too, but I just, I'm not. It's so hard.

That's why I don't play these puzzle games because I'm like, I genuinely can't do it sometimes. I hit a wall. And then the way I'm brought up, I was like, growing up when you're constantly like told by teachers or people like, oh, maybe this just isn't for you because you can't do it. You kind of like give up or you get so frustrated. And I still have that kind of mentality where it's like my entire life, if I can't do something, I get so frustrated. I'm like, I know I can, but it's like, Jessica, maybe it's not, I don't want you to beat yourself up so bad because you can't figure out this puzzle of this game. So I looked it up and then I go, oh, and again, just because someone else did it on like two tries, I had to do it on 50. This game is so

quick and the walkthroughs that people have played on it online are like an hour and a half, two hours. It took me four days. I was like, and I was like, and I'm working, we work nine to five. So it's like, hey, during the day, the work day, I am playing this game, and I still couldn't figure this thing out. Yeah, I remember Jonathan Bloss saying that at the time that he had trouble showing off the game to other people, like demonstrating it because a lot of the actual satisfaction of playing it just comes inside your head. It's like if you just watch footage of it, it might look sort of simple. Like if you watch someone who is immediately solving the puzzle, then as you said, like it'll be over really fast. But if you watch someone who's just stuck at the puzzle, that's going to be super boring because you'll just watch them trying and failing or just sitting there for hours. So I don't know if it's a game that comes across as well when you just watch a video of it because so much of the challenge and hopefully the satisfaction.

But sometimes the frustration is coming inside the player's head when you finally. I do love that feeling of like when it finally clicks. It's like, oh, yes, I got it finally. I wish. A lot of times, though, it doesn't happen. And you're like, I got to get on with my life here. I have other things to do, so I fully support looking up solutions to things. There are definitely times when I will look up a solution.

I'll be like, how did I not get that? When it's a horror game or any kind of other, like, the bigger, bigger storytelling games, I'm usually like, again, I'll walk around. I'll keep trying to figure it out. I will exhaust every option before I look it up. But this one, I was like, puzzle, this puzzle, I was like, oh, it's one solution. Yeah. And I cannot figure this out.

And then also you have to keep rewinding because if you killed a many, Gumbas, you're kind of out of it. But, um, no, uh, play, play wise, very fun. Uh, the metaphor is in it. And this is what I did like about what he said in interviews was being like, I want everyone have different interpretations. Yes. I want everyone to think of this differently because like certain things did other stuff. So I love how like it was like, they even talked about like, oh, I wanted her, I wanted to marry her. I also had to deal with these situations of my family where it's like, I had to exceed their expectations of what I should have done in life and I just didn't want to do it. And then the ring would slow down time.

And it was like, anytime we're in the vicinity of the ring, it would slow anything down. And I was like, oh, what does that mean? Yeah. I was like, what's going on? Yeah. Yeah. And Jonathan Blow, he's been asked about, what does this mean? What are you trying to tell us many, many times?

But he's chosen to keep it inscrutable, kind of vague, just not confirming one simple takeaway. And so one of the popular interpretations, as you alluded to earlier, it's about the bomb, right? It's about the atomic bomb. I mean, I guess it's topical. with Oppenheimer coming out. I don't know whether having seen Oppenheimer, you'll play this game differently. But one of the interpretations is that this is like a scientist in the Manhattan project who's building the A-bomb or just built the A-bomb and is trying to reckon with the consequences of that, right? And the princess is the bomb, right? And then there are many other

alternate interpretation. So it's kind of like it is what you make of it, I guess, which is nice, right? It resists sort of a simple summation. At the end, they have two quotes that were like from people that worked on it. And I understand why that would be the distinction of like, oh, she's the atomic bomb. Also, he makes a mention of like he was obsessed with this metal.

And she's the metal. But I also was like, yeah, it also is like, the men that worked on the atomic bomb, especially after seeing an Oppenheimer, were obsessed. They were like, we know the outcome is going to be horrible.

They didn't, but that didn't like outweigh how they were like, we need to finalize this. This needs. to be perfect. So I was like, oh, maybe it's just that obsession that he had with her that made she was the atomic bomb because these men were like, this is all I have. And I know you were wondering at the end, but what was the braid? Where's the braid? Well, he said, okay, other than the title of the game, braid is mentioned one more time and it's

about her hair and how it whipped him almost in the face. It was her braid. And I was like, that doesn't answer the question. I was like, where is this braid? What is that? What is the braid. But I wonder if the braid is supposed to be like, like how you braid a hair. You have three, like, you have three lines or whatever, right? And you're braiding over and over and over again. And you're just like continually twisting. I don't know. Again, up to anyone's interpretation, which I love, give me that. Yeah. I've seen people say, yeah, the obvious, like, it's the princess's hair. Or maybe it's like the way the narrative is interwoven with the gameplay or it's like the way that time, you know, you can reverse time and it's looping under and above.

Who knows? But it's a game that allows you to have many interpretations of it, which is nice. And it's also, I think, the kind of illustration of like, here's what's possible in video games, right? Because, like, you could tell a similar story. You could write it. You could make a movie of it. But when you play Brade, it's like this could not be anything else, right? Or it wouldn't be quite as satisfying to actually solve these puzzles and have the rewind mechanic.

Like, you could depict that in some other way. But the interactivity of it, I think, is a. It's a good advertisement, I guess, for the possibilities of the medium. When you looked up the solutions to the puzzles, were you like, oh, of course. Or were you like, I never would have known that. How was I supposed to know that? When you get closer to the end of the game, it gets hard as hell, right? And there's one map where you have rockets shooting off things continuously.

It is insane how much stuff is being shot. And it's in different directions. or taking up every corner of every screen. And I was like, what the hell am I supposed to do? I was so confused. I was like, no, I'm going to get hit. I'm going to get hit. And I would get on the net.

And I was like, I'm getting hit no matter what. And so I looked up the solution. And the solution was just patience. Uh-huh. It was just patience. And that's a lot of this game is like, you have to jump at the precise time. You have to scroll at the precise time.

You have to do this exactly here. And which, again, up to interpretation, along with the storyline is like he had no patience. He had no patience. He had no time. She even was like, I'm here for you in the story. She was like,

I'm, it's like they were going down a street in Manhattan and he was like, no, this way. And she was like, no, like, let's just think about it. And I was like, oh, okay, I don't have patience.

Right. And that is the curse of playing horror games where I'm like, ah, running through it really quick. Yeah. But it was just patience. So that one was one where I was like, Oh, Jessica.

Come on. Yeah. Sometimes you look one up and it's like, I never would have known that. And there's no way that I could have known that. And it's just, it's frustrating. It feels like it feels like they didn't sort of signposted enough or they didn't help you enough to understand. Because there's a fine line with puzzle design, right, where you don't want your hand to be held too much. Yeah, 100%.

You don't want it to be like, you know, now when Horizon or God of War or whatever has the protagonist just like talking the entire time. you're playing, sometimes you can disable that, but it's just like, let me solve this on my own instead of saying, like, have you tried looking over there? Right. But you also don't want it to be just so inscrutable that it's like, I feel like this came out of nowhere. Like you want your hand to be held a little bit so that you feel like it's leading you to the solution without taking you all the way there. So I'm always just like in awe of people who make great puzzles in video games because it's just so clever and ingenious. And I don't know whether it's, it's harder to solve the puzzles or harder to design them.

I would imagine it's harder to design them, but to design them so that it's just the right level of frustrating that when you finally solve it or you look up the answer, it's like, of course it gave me the tools I needed to solve that. I just didn't, but I should have, I could have, as opposed to sometimes when it's just like, there's no way. Like you didn't give me enough information to be able to solve this puzzle.

100%. So has this changed your attitude towards, Puzzle games? Absolutely. No. Not. Absolutely not. But the thing is, the thing is,

it was so gorgeous. And I, let me, give me one second. It is the prettiest game I've played. It is the, by far, the prettiest game I've played. There's games that are like, Boulder's Gate where it looks visually.

Like, it's like, yeah, this is gorgeous, but this was like a painting. Yeah. And it felt like, it felt like a beautiful movie. It felt like a good cinematic piece. The story,

was so good. You know how I listened to the stories and games. I love the stories and games. Like that, that part I ate up. I loved it. And that's why I'm like, if there is another puzzle game in the world that's like this, like visually stimulating, the story is like, oh, this is great. Or just one of the two, I would play it in a heartbeat because it was, it was, I remember just being so smitten immediately with it. I was like, oh my God. Yeah. And the little music. Yeah, great score. Great team. Oh my God. It was so, I ate it up. You guys, I'm in media. for a reason. I'm in the game for a reason. Visually stimulating person, and this is so beautiful

and the story was so good. I love that reveal. That reveal. Once you rewounded at the very end, that's what I like to see. And I was like, oh my God, every piece of the puzzle she was trying to get away. Oh, God. And you wouldn't let her. Ben, I can't tell you how many times I looked. I was like, Ben, what am I playing? I was like, Ben, I don't like the story. And then I went, oh, my God. Oh, my God. She's been trying to get away.

Even if this is not your genre of choice, you've played one of the real standard bears, like one of the real best examples of the form. And so many indie games that came after Braid are like, oh, this is like Braid, but with this mechanic instead of that mechanic. Or just that whole aesthetic and the hand drawn everything, it's very much in the legacy of Braid. So there are subsequent games like Jonathan Blow made another game called The Witness, which is probably even more hardcore, two or four. too hardcore even for me when it comes to the puzzles, right? But I'm glad you liked it. I'm glad it wasn't total torture for you. No, I know.

And I think that reward of how great it looked. And also all my friends, I was like, hey, have you guys played braid? They're like, oh, I heard of it. Never played it. And then I was like, you should go play. It's not, I, don't quote me on this thing. It's like 14 bucks on Steam. But I've been buying a lot of games on Steam, so I might be getting them cross.

But I remember being like, you guys should play real quick. Like, it's such a quick game. I think it also is more fun to play as a group and then you guys can work through the puzzles together. If I could work with someone else, we probably would have solved it. We would have done it easily. We would hand it over the keyboard, but I was playing it alone.

And I couldn't do about myself. I agree. Yeah. The single player games that are very puzzle-heavy can be great co-op games, just someone sitting next to you saying, sometimes though I'll play those with like a non-gamer, someone who doesn't really understand how games typically work and they'll be like suggesting things that I just know you can't do. It's like, it doesn't work like that. Just do it to make them feel better.

Yeah, like you try it. It's like, I'll humor you. I'll try that thing. Oh, Ben. Oh, my God. It's like, the solution's just to don't work that way. Or like, I can't do that in the game. You know, like you're telling me to do something that I can't actually control my character in that way.

But I appreciate the input. Anyway, speaking of torture. Oh, my God. You played Outlast. I played Outlast. So Outlast is also nearing an anniversary here. It came out in early September 2013. So it's turning 10 in a couple weeks, developed by Red Barrels.

Also available on pretty much all platforms now has a couple sequels. And this is pretty hardcore survival horror. So I'm like diving into the deep end here. I mean, I guess each of us is, right? We weren't like, why not dip your toe into this genre that you're not so sure about? No, take the plunge. This is all the way, right? It's just like exposure therapy.

It's like my worst fear. Just lock me in a room with that. And maybe at the end, I will either be traumatized or I won't be afraid of it anymore. I think I am traumatized and also still afraid of it. This is a haunted house game where it's like, I don't want to get out. I don't want to do it. But you have to keep walking. Yeah.

You have to keep going through it. So this is how you have fun, huh? Playing, playing games like Atlas. This is fun for you. I would love to hear. Okay. And we talk about this briefly. Actually, we'll save this part for the end.

because that's a loaded question. But my whole question is, like, I haven't played it in such a long time, but then I was thinking about it last night. And I felt bad of being like, Ben, play this game. Because I forgot that you're doing a lot of things. Like, first of all, you have no weapon.

Yeah. And then secondly, you're doing it with like a night light. With a handheld camera. A handheld camera. With night vision on it. Yeah. How often did you use that? Almost the entire game.

So for people who don't know, this is a game where you play as an, investigative journalists, right, named Miles Upshur. And he's trying to break this story, this shady Murkhoff Corporation. He's gotten a tip. And so he's going to this psychiatric hospital to find out what's going on there and blow the lids, you know, blow the whistle on Murkoff. And you find that they've been experimenting on people and things have gone horribly wrong, as you would expect. Because if everything was going great, then it wouldn't really be a survival horror game.

made me feel bad about my career as a journalist. It's like, wow, this guy's really, this is hardcore. Like, this is what a real journalist does. Go to the psychiatric hospital where people have been experimented upon by nefarious corporations and expose it to everyone. I'm reviewing video games. I don't know. I'll be honest.

I don't think any journalist should ever go into a, not, I'm just saying, any dangerous situation where they have to go up like, like, what would he, like, crawled into a window. Oh, yeah. I'm like, as soon as I realized the windows were broken and I would have to crawl into one, I probably would turn around and be like, I shouldn't go in this place. Probably breaking and entering. Yeah, first off, that's a B&E. Yeah.

And I'm not talking about. I'm picking an A. He didn't break, but he definitely entered. He didn't. I mean, I've seen some horror movies. I wouldn't say I seek them out, but I can tolerate them. I can survive them. I've played some spooky games like The Last of Us and Bioshop, like that kind of game where you

wouldn't say it's a horror game, but it's. Bioshock was actually kind of scary. It is kind of scary, right? Thank you. Thank you for the reinforcement. Oh, no. I loved, Bioshock was like a fun scary, though. Right.

But I was like, ooh, there's too many things happening. Yeah. So I've played a lot of games that are not horror games, but they might have some horror elements. Like, if you're playing them alone at night, you might be kind of creeped out. But it's not a horror game. Like, I played Eternal Darkness on GameCube about 20 years ago, which is a great game, very scary.

Probably the most legitimate horror survival horror game I've played. and I've pretty much avoided them like the plague since then. I played one game. So Outlast was inspired by an earlier game called Amnesia. And the makers of amnesia, frictional games, they made a game called Soma that I played after they added a safe mode. So sometimes games, it's like we will make a game for the Scaredy Cats. We'll make a mode.

Ben Lindberg. This will be safe for Ben Lindberg to play now because the safe mode of Soma, it's like all the monsters are still there, but it's just part of the scenery. Like, they can't hurt you, you know? They will like shuffle past you moaning, but they cannot hurt you. And I was like, okay, I can do this. I'm going to strangle you. I understand.

I like a lot of new horror games I've been doing like, if you have like a racknophobia, they're like, we can take off the spider feature. Yes. And I'm like, yes. Do that. Or like, yeah, Horizon. It's like if you're scared of being underwater and drowning, like you can take off the air meter, that kind of thing.

It's actually kind of sweet. Yeah. That's actually, they're keeping, they're like, we made it scary, but we don't want to traumatize you. Right. Unlike Alas, that literally. What was the, how far did you get? What was the scariest part? I mean, I finished it. Oh, good.

I'm proud of myself, right? But, gosh, there were so many. I was going to ask you what the hardest puzzle in braid was, what the scariest part of was. Was it the rocket puzzle? It was, okay. Well, just because it was so scary, and I was like, there is no solution. And then when I saw it, I was like, oh, my God, Jessica.

It's within yourself. Right. It's just patience. A lot of people like to be scared under controlled conditions where it's like you can get the feeling of being scared. But you know you're not actually in danger, whereas I would just rather not be scared at all. It's like there's an amusement park here in Stockholm that everywhere I walk, I hear screams emanating from the amusement park. And for some people, that's like a siren song. They're like, I hear screams.

I will go in that direction. Oh, adrenaline. I want to scream. Whereas I'm like, people are screaming. I should walk in the opposite direction. So I had to conquer that impulse to play Outlast and to actually play the entire game. Where would you put this on the scariness spectrum?

Like, how proud of myself should I be for actually getting to this? Oh, my God. Are you out of your mind? First of all in scary games, at least like you get a weapon. You get to fight back. You're not fighting back. Right. So it's more scary because it's nonviolent.

All I can do is run and hide. Oh, you can do is run as hide. And then that's the thing. You have to overcome that fear because you can hide in a lot of places. You can go into the vent. You can hide behind, you can hide under beds, which, oh, my God. Also, the game, you're breathing so damn loud. You are screaming when you breathe, dude.

You are asking for them to come find you. I know. I was going to say, I looked up the voice actor, whose name is Sean Pachu, who plays Miles in this game, who doesn't really get to talk. It's just scared breathing. It's just like, he is breathing so loud. I was like, shut up. I remember when I played it.

They put him in the sound booth, and they're like, give us several hours of terrified, labored breathing and he's like, all right, here we go. He was very convinced. The other thing is that every time he slams a door, like he slams every door. It's like I'm trying to sneak around. I'm trying to be stealthy. And I would try to close doors behind me because I felt like, okay, the monsters can't see me or hear me if I close this door.

And then he'll just slam. It's like, we're trying to hide here, man. They did that on purpose. When it comes to a scare meter, this is high. This is high. This is, for me, personally, very high. Like, with Resident Evil, very high. And I'm talking more, I think, seven.

I think seven, Resident Evil. Either right, this is so high because of those features, where you're like, okay, so yeah, you don't have a weapon, but then you're like, oh, at least I can be stealthy. And then he's sprinting and, like, clogs for some reason, jumping over things the loudest way possible. Yeah. And then actually interacting with a lot of people.

Interactive with too many people, in my opinion. He genuinely kept talking and looking at people. And I was like, stop. I was like, I would never do this. You know what I'm not going to do? Go talk to the man hiding under the bed. He was like bleeding to death. You could never tell because like the patients or inmates, you know, who are horribly mutated.

Sometimes they will attack you and kill you. And sometimes not. Sometimes they're just minding their own business. So you never know. So better safe than sorry. And it's also the environment that I think is also like, and again, sorry to force you to be like, you have to go into an asylum where a variant escape. and everyone's mutants.

So it's like you're forced into a place where you can't leave. Yeah. It's not a forest where you can just keep running out or even in the last of us. You're exploring different cities. You're literally stuck in like a prison. Yeah. The whole goal for the game is get out of here basically until the very end. And it's tough because people keep trying to trap you in there.

And yeah, I guess in a lot of survival horror games, you're slow, right? Like you don't move very agilely around the world because it's like everyone is faster and stronger than you are. You can run, but even the running is slow. And it does really place you in that world, like the camera mechanic. So you have to use the camera because it's his only tool, right? There aren't that many verbs, as they say in this game, like ways you can interact with it. There are only so many things he can do. He can like open doors or climb in vents. There's not that much more. But the camera you use for two reasons, I guess. One is that you're trying to document what Murkhoff is up to here. And if you're filming certain things, then it will trigger

like notes that he scribbles to himself. But also, it's very dark in this place. And in order to see in a lot of places, you have to have the night vision on your camera on. And then you also have to worry about the batteries running out on the night vision on the camera. So you have to scrounge around for batteries. And that's another source of anxiety. Like even stealth games make me nervous because it's like, oh, he's going to see me. I got to creep around here. And when someone spots you in this game and starts chasing you. The music. The music.

I just remembered. Oh, yeah, that's the scariest part. That is the worst part. Like a normal horror movie. Yeah. And a lot of scary movies, if there was no music, you probably wouldn't be as afraid. But the music, because you'll hear the music before you see the person. Right.

Just start running. Yeah. Oh, my God, you just unlocked that core memory. I completely forgot that the music was the worst part. Yeah, it's the sound design. And like, this main adversary, at least for most of the game, is named Chris Walker. It's a deceptively normal name. But, like, the gigantic.

zombie mutant guy who's chasing you. He's like, I don't know, he's like taking care of the place. He's like security. But you can hear his keys coming. Like his keys are jangling. And before you even see him, you can hear the keys. And he's constantly chasing you and you get to a different part of the asylum. And then, nope, you hear the keys.

Like, he's after you again. And when you're running away, it's totally optional. But you can press a button so that you can look behind you as you're running in that classic like horror movie kind of way, just like look behind you and then trip over. a branch or something and then they'll catch you. So they built that in just so you could scare yourself by looking at who's behind me. But it's very immersive. Like there's this kind of film grain effect.

And then also like there's no HUD, like there's no heads up display. There's no radar. It's not like here are the bad guys that you can avoid. So it's all just based on context and what you can see. And no like meters or health meters or anything on the screen other than I guess the battery indicator on the camera, which on a real camera, there is a battery indicator. So that's true to life, too. So it doesn't feel very video gaming. It feels like I'm in this place. You're surviving. Yeah. And like little touches. Like if you walk close to a wall, he'll put his hands up and like touch the wall. And it's like, oh, I feel like I'm in this place. I feel like I'm touching. And then later, he loses a couple fingers, unfortunately. And then you can see the stump of the fingers that are bleeding. And that reminds you that you're in this predicament. So it's pretty. scary and there are a number of ways in which is scary like it's that creepy like it's dark and someone's chasing me and then there are jump scares it's triggered jump scares you'll be walking and then uh out of

the ceiling a dead body falls on yeah right and then there's gore gore doesn't bother me so much i can handle gore but compared to these other things well they're doing it the way that um a good reason also why i recommended it uh there's so many different versions of like gore in movies and games and this one that gives me the Silent Hill vibe where like these people's bodies are deformed. And I was like, because my favorite part I remember was the doctor, like that entire him getting his fingers cut off and the doctor sounding like, what's, oh my God, Adam Sandler's friend that just passed away that was on SNL. I can't remember his name. But he sounds exactly like him. And he's just fun. And I was like, why is he naked? He's naked wearing like a normal apron. Yeah. Cutting fingers off trying to get

body parts. Yeah. And I was like, this is, it's like Silent Hill, but if it was like cookey, if it was like cookey, everyone's just like, oh, we're just here having fun. Right. What was your, what was your, what was your favorite scene? There was your favorite characters. I mean, I thought of like recording myself, play it, like to get the reaction.

I did think of it. It's just that like, generally I look pretty calm, even if I'm screaming on the inside. So I don't know if it would have shown up, but like, I was playing as much as possible with my wife and like with the lights on and everything. And that ended up scaring me more because my wife would scream when the jump scares. And I'm like, no, you're here to calm me down. And you're the one who's getting freaked out by this. It made it even worse. But yeah, it was legitimately scary.

And I guess just some of the sequences where you're, I mean, there's this, you know, like old Nazi doctor who's hanging around experimenting on people. And then there's this priest who's lost his mind and is trying to make you the savior. And then there's executive who's also kind of lost his mind and is experimenting on people. So there are all these characters come across. But I think it's almost like being chased by a big daddy in Bioshock or so it's very much like that one guy who's pursuing you throughout the game. And just when you think you've lost him, no, you hear those keys jankling. And you're like, oh, here we go again. Fire or fly.

Did you also? when you die, the guys usually ripping off your head blood sprays everywhere. Then you go back to your last save checkpoint, right? How many times did you die? Many times. Yeah, I mean, that in a way,

that almost took me out of it a little bit because when I would die, it's like, okay, this is the worst that could happen and all that happens is I just reload a checkpoint. It's like, okay. They save a lot. I'm not in actual danger here, right? Which when someone's chasing you

and the music's blaring, you can forget that like you're not actually in danger here, which is a sign that the game works. Like, I think a good horror game, it's like you dread playing it, but then when you're actually playing it, you don't really want to put it down. Like, you want to keep going. And I did want to keep going, not just because I agreed to. And I was obligated to podcast about it.

But also, I mean, it was a good game. And it was almost like, I was surprised by how much of a narrative there was. It's almost like a walking simulator type game where you're going around gathering clues and interacting with the. environment and trying to find your way out of this place. And I didn't follow every plot point. Yeah, there's a lot of lore and there's sequels and prequels that explain more what's going on here. I mean, all you really need to know is there's like an ex-Nazi doctor and he's experimenting on people and everyone's like mutated and morphed. That's like the biggest part of the story. That's like the ending. And then again, I ended up choosing the doctor scene where the doctor dies immediately.

Do you, would you say that the game, we talked about this a little bit, that the game really kind of the, the, the scariness outweighed the storyline? Yeah, I think so. But I was surprised by how much of a storyline there was, I think, because there didn't have to be. It could have just been about the scares. That is true. Often it's not the main draw is the story in the survival horror. It's the survival and the horror. That is true.

So, yeah, there was a lot to this and you find out what's going on. And then ultimately you have to, I don't know if I'll spoil every little detail. And I'm not sure I followed every little detail either. But ultimately you have to kill or end the life support of this one entity who's like controlling this mystical being. And they're like nanites and stuff. You know, there's like supernatural elements. But there's this thing called the wall rider, I guess, who's like haunting this facility and killing everyone and chasing you. And ultimately you do.

take them on head on, right? But this is a game that definitely like stays with you. And I was trying not to play before bed. And, and then also like just in real life, like, we're in Sweden. It's very eco-conscious, right? They're trying to save energy everywhere. And so when we're in the hallways in this hotel, like the lights will turn off until they're like motion activated. So I'll get off the elevator. There'll be this long, dark hallway. And it's very reminiscent. You run through it. Yeah. It's like, where's my handheld camera? I was definitely looking through the camera, almost. I was definitely looking through the camera, almost. I was. I was definitely looking through the camera, almost. the entire time. That's insane. That made it scarier for me. I would put the kid. I think for me, I genuinely was like, if I don't see it,

it's not there. So I would always like, I was, so you're just stumbling around in the dark. Basically, I only, because also they, oh,

you know what this game's great at doing? Making you use that damn camera and there's someone standing right next to you. And then there was two scenes where I remember I had to jump up onto like a ledge and then there's someone standing right there

just looking at me. Yes. And I was like, I hate this. I hate this life. Why did I choose this life? I looked through the camera. because to me it was like I was one layer removed from what was in that world.

If I was like looking through my screen, through a screen in the game, because it's first person. So if you're not looking through the camera, everything's like right in your face, right? Whereas the camera was like, okay, there's like a level of separation here, which actually I was going to ask because like I played this initially on Xbox and then I didn't finish it on Xbox, had to restart it on Switch so that I could take it with me. And I think it was scarier on Switch. Yeah, you're literally walking yourself in it. I was playing handheld, and it's like right up in my face as opposed to, oh, the TV's way over there on the other side of the room, I'm safe.

I'm holding it right up to my face. Wow, this is suddenly scary. You're one level down from like a VR headset. Right. Oh, my God, never. I would never catch. I love this game and you would never catch me playing this game in VR. You're out of your mind. Yeah.

And I was going to say some people who are scared of these games but want to have some exposure to them or at least know what happens in them. Like some people will read. the Wikipedia synopsies of horror movies. And it's like, okay, I can just read what happens and it'll satisfy my curiosity. And then some people will watch playthrus of these games. So I watched a playthrough of PT, which is short for playable teaser.

It's this legendary 20 to 30 minute sampler or proof of concept for a game that Hideo Kajima made almost 10 years ago, nine years ago at this point. And he was going to make a Silent Hill game with, Guillermo del Toro. They ended up making Death Stranded, but this game got cancelled because of the whole separation from Konami, but they put out just this playable trailer,

this demo, basically, and it's terrifying. It's like one of the scariest horror games, even though it's very short. And I'd be terrified to play it. I was worried that you were going to make me play it for this exercise. It's hard to play now. It's like, they're mods and recreations, but you can't

download the original anymore. But I watched it on YouTube. I just, like, watched Playthroughs. Horrifying. And it was still, yeah, it was horrifying. It was still freaky and scary, but definitely less so. Like, when I'm not controlling it, that is probably the way that I would experience horror games in the future. I'll just watch this, right?

Because the interactivity, like, directly you move and your character moves that I think that links me to that world much more closely. Whereas if I'm watching someone else play, it's like, okay, this is still scary, but it's more like a horror movie where I'm not. I'm not, I don't feel as immersed in that world. And also I could press pause and I could walk away, which I guess I could do well I'm playing too. But again, it's like I'm one layer removed from this like with the camera held up. It's a very you mentality too. I can see.

I'm like, I'm like, that's great. I wish I could be like that. And I'm like, no, I think that's just Ben. Because I'm like, even in the movie, I mean, I watch Twitch streams of people play horror games. And I'm like, oh, get out of there. I'm like, run out. Get out.

Like, I'm screaming at the screen like I do a movie. Yeah. But the different. is, yeah, with me playing a horror game, I'm like, I have to walk through this. Yeah. In a movie, it'll just happen. I'll still be just as scared, but it's going to happen. I can't control it.

So you feel less scared because you have control? Like, you can run as opposed to watching someone else not run, run into trouble? It's interesting. Well, no, it's because I remember when I first played Bioshock, there was times where I was like, Jessica, you have to just walk around the corner. Just walk around the corner. And I was like, I can't. But in a movie, it's like, they're going to walk around the corner.

Then I got to pause for 20 minutes. Like, I am. That's the other thing. With this game, they're like, lot of times where you're hiding in a locker or something. I'll stay in that locker. Yeah, you could stay there for a long time. And again, like, you have to be safe because there's not a little blip on your mini map

or something that's telling you, okay, it's safe to go now. So you have to listen. You can't really see anything because it's so dark. And you're just thinking, if I go out of this locker right now, is there someone waiting for me? Maybe. And they'll pull you out of the locker if they see you. So like, even like when I was going under the bed, because again, I'm so sorry,

Miles, whatever, he takes his time going under bed. and slamming lockers. And I was like, they're going to hear us. I appreciated that too, though, because it's not like in most games where there's a routine and you see like,

okay, they're going down the hall. That means it's safe for me to go now. In this game, whoever you're hiding from would sometimes just randomly come back to where you were. And so you never felt like

it's safe. I can move now. You're just constantly on edge. But I finished it. I'm proud of myself. You should be. This is a really big milestone in horror games.

It is really scary. It's very scary Yeah, I feel like having done this I could now take on anything I don't know that I will But I feel like I could Look at that I think you can

So you probably won't Safe to say you probably will not play The prequel Probably will not play LS too Maybe I'll watch that on YouTube Maybe I'll read the summary on Wikipedia But I will say if you played this I think you can play another horror game

I think so yeah Another maybe not the Resident Evil or whatever The Guillemola Tora one But like this was a big accomplishment so you can play other horror games for sure we confronted our fears we conquered our fears so now it's like

I could play that it's not going to be worse than now less you know are the puzzles harder than Braid no okay well I beat Braid or at least I looked up the answer sometimes so I could get through this too we could do anything now you're good to go especially if you in your wife should do it co-op

horror game because at least you can play together and there's so many co-op war games well, we did it. I'm glad. I'm proud of us. We've come to the end of this exercise in this episode, which is good because it's about 100 degrees in our little podcast cubicle here. I'm very comfy. I'm glad you're comfy. Producer Carlos is nodding along with me. What I say, it's getting a little stuffy in here. But we will free him and also ourselves here. And next time we talk, we will again be far away physically, but hopefully closer than ever, spiritually, emotionally,

now that we've bonded over playing games that challenged us and intimidated us and also spent an hour ensconced in this tiny podcast studio in Sweden. So if you want to suggest any games for us next time, do this. I hope and think that next time we'll be doing deeper dives into Baldur's Gate and Starfield. But some time down the road, maybe a slower point in the release schedule. We'll want to try this again. So email us, Ringerverse Gaming at gmail.com and suggest other games that we could try. And stay tuned to The Ringiverse feed and House of Our and Theringer.com for all of our upcoming Asoka coverage. Thanks to Arjuna Ram Kapal, who's also in Sweden. Hi, Arjuna.

for producing and managing this podcast. And thanks to Carlos Dearboga, for helping us produce. Thanks to all of you for listening. And Jess, it was wonderful to be in your presence for once. Yeah, I'm going to run in the dark.