The Ringer-Verse - ‘Fallout’ Season 2, Episode 5 Reactions | Button Mash

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

We need to talk! Ben Lindbergh and Daniel Chin discuss the strong fifth episode of the second season of 'Fallout,' "The Wrangler." After sharing their overall review, they recap and dissect each of the main plot threads and character developments, break down the story revelations, and assess the connections to ‘Fallout’ lore. They also examine the mystery of who ended the world and probe that puzzle’s implications for the rest of the series. Intro (0:00)Overall review of the episode (1:46)Hank catch-up (5:32)What’s new with Norm (13:02)Lucy and the Ghoul (27:05)Coop and House (53:20)Outro (1:25:23) Host: Ben LindberghGuest: Daniel ChinProducer: Isaiah BlakelyAdditional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Welcome into the ringerverse, your nexus feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, senior editor for the ringer and button mash host, active in reporting for podcasting duty. That makes two of us, so I've got a guest whose destiny is mathematically intertwined with mine. It's not weird for him to rob a store naked. Lots of people do it. Daniel Chin is here.

Hello, Daniel. Hi, Ben. Thanks for having me back. Well, like our friend Fisto, we are programmed for your pleasure. Your listening pleasure, that is. So welcome to any looky-lose listening from behind a shrub. Don't be shy. Pour yourself a nukeatini.

Assume the position. And to quote Hank McLean, let's begin. And today we are talking about Fallout, Season 2, Episode 5, The Wrangler, directed by Liz Friedlander, written by Owen Elexson. And as always, we begin with our overall reviews. So, Daniel, your thoughts on The Wrangler. This was my favorite episode of the season by far. I just thought everything worked really well. I think, you know, big picture, there's still the whole element of, are there too many

storylines? We had to sideline a few this time, but I thought just exactly. Yeah. I thought everything about this episode worked really well, though. I'm with you. This was my favorite of the season. Last week, we lamented the lack of Hank and Norm, so right on cue, they show up and we get more time with them.

But really, I think the emotional center of this series, I feel bad apologies to our man Maximus, but it's Lucy and the Gull, right? And Coupe included. And this is just the most Lucy and the ghoul-centric episode of the season. And because we were just limited to Lucy, Gould, Coop, and bits of the McLean men, it just felt more focused. It felt more cohesive, even though we were jumping here and there. And then and now, it's, still felt just a little more unified than the typical fallout episodes this season, which has been sort of all over the place. Not in a bad way. We've enjoyed the season. But yeah, this one just felt the most kind of of a piece, I think. And also just some good confirmations of theorizing and speculation.

We got confirmation of the body double theory and our discussion of FEV last week. I don't think we were the only ones who saw those revelations. coming. But at least we sort of closed the book, at least on the implications there, but also more mystery opened up, right? And the scope of the series, I think, continues to broaden. And that really happened here. We get this meaty scene with Coop and House. We find out more about house, but there's a lot that we don't know and that House doesn't know. It's just a lot to chew on this week. Just a great episode. Definitely. And I think in hindsight, a lot of it really was set up, but it was paying off in a really nice way for this episode. A lot of things actually

came through. Things like even just Lucy's evolution, which we started seeing a little bit of last week, even though she was addicted to to buff out. So it's kind of hard to tell. But I feel like a lot of that growth that we were really hoping for from the first half of the season really came through in this episode in a really nice way, especially. Yeah, it was a nice way to start the second half. It just feels like the momentum is building. We haven't watched ahead. We don't know whether that will be sustained, but it does feel like, yeah, we're ramping up the pace and just accelerating as we head into the second half of the season here. And yes, some sacrifices for screen time must be made. So no Maximus, no brotherhood, no reg, you know, no inbreeding support group. We're not sure

what's going on with the vault's water supply this week. But, you know, I didn't miss that that much. So I think we really focused on the strengths here. And we will dive deep into it all. and break it down and do some speculating and see what this sets up for the rest of the season. And as usual, we will break the episode into discrete sections and chunks and we will take it piece by piece. So we can start with the McLean men and we'll talk about Hank in the present because he shows up in the past as well, looking very youthful. And Norm, who gets a little more time today. And then we'll get to Lucy and the Gould in the present.

And even though we're kind of going in reverse chronological order, I figure we'll finish up with the flashback and what we learn about Coop and House because that scene just that felt like the centerpiece, the set piece of this episode. So we'll build up to that. So Hank, we reunite with him via the snake oil salesman who we have not seen since season one, right? It's been a while. This episode, I guess, featured multiple season one guest star reunions. and we get John Daly and his just really unsettling, but in an entertaining way, the snake oil salesman who's on his way to New Vegas with his fusion core in hand and a skip in his step. He just seems like he's hearing a musical in his head that no one else can.

He just sort of hears the score, the needle drops. Just happy to be back with snake oil salesman. And he plays a pretty prominent part in this episode. I thought it was a great depiction of just walking the wall. wasteland too. You're just mining your own business and then all of a sudden a rat roach jumps on top of you. Been there. Yeah. So when he gets to New Vegas, he meets up with Fisto, my second favorite Fisto in fiction after kit, a fully integrated security technotronic officer who is familiar to any fans, any players of Fallout New Vegas. Just a fan favorite. Everyone loves

a deviant robot, whether it's HK-47. or Fisto here. And this comes from a side quest in that game called Wang Dang Atomic Tango, where you as the courier reprogram Fisto as a sex bot. And I like to see that our handiwork has survived for 15 years after the game because so much has fallen into ruin and disrepair. And yet it seems like Fistow still functioning at the peak of his power. So very pleased to see that we had this impact on his programming.

Yeah, Victor has definitely seen better days, but Fisto seems totally fine. Yeah, he's thriving. And, you know, this is not unheard of in this world. We heard in an earlier episode this season, the Grand Canyon Brotherhood, is perhaps romantically involved with robots in some sense, at least one squire who is well within his rights. So, you know, as the snake oil salesman says here, you can't begrudge a man for filling the void, so to speak, nudge, nudge, which void are we talking about here? But as Fisto says in the game, numbness will subside in several minutes.

So that should give you some indication of how Fistow functions here. And we don't get to see it because Hank shows up and clocks the snake oil salesman. But I mean, I feel for him because chickens we've seen him get involved with before, robots in the wasteland. You just have to take your physical connections wherever you can find them. It was definitely very fun to see him back in this episode. I know that he had been a part of some of the promotions for Fallout. I don't know if you've seen these. It's kind of like an Eric Andre style talk show.

Yes, Fisto too. Right. Actually, I haven't seen that part, but I'm going to have to go find that. But it's fun seeing him actually back into this role. And I really liked some of the fakeouts that they were doing with the cinematography too. Like as Hank was with him, like they positioned the camera in the same way. expecting you to see his brain get exploded the same way that the mice and the demand from earlier in the premium vault plus, whatever it's called. But whatever is up with the snake oil salesman,

he's survived it. Yeah. I don't know if this was just fortuitous, serendipitous for Hank that he stumbled across the snake oil salesman or whether he's in cahoots with Fisto, whether this is like a catfishing, cat-fisting situation, and he's just luring people in to be experimental subjects for him. But it seems to work out perfectly because he appears to be the ideal test subject. And in fact, unlike the others, he's not even participating against his will. He is fully on board with being brainwashed. Hank says, how would you like to forget everything you've ever known, every one you've ever known, your language and motor skills will remain intact.

but every choice you've made, every moment you've cherished, will be completely and utterly removed from your memory. No hesitation whatsoever on snake oil salesman's part. Just please, yes, I'm on board, which I'd be heard if I were Fisto, for that matter, because whatever time they've shared together, he is willing to just erase instantly. Right. Not even a follow-up question. What do I get out of this? No, nothing.

I mean, what he gets is sweet oblivion and ignorance being bliss. I guess. And yes, we do get the fake out, the misdirect. It's not clear to me. I don't know whether you had any thought about this, whether Hank has refined the device in some way. Has all of his previous testing paid off? Or is it just that whatever is screwed up

about the snake oil salesman's brain chemistry just makes him the perfect willing vessel? I kind of like that. It's ambiguous because that was exactly what I was wondering too. it seems to me that Hank has been doing this the entire time just exploding mice and whatever humans he's taking out of cryosleep but I don't know I guess I guess we there's still a lot to learn about Hank and I appreciate that we got to see a little bit more of that but that they're still sustaining that suspense yes and in the next time on little sneak preview at the end this episode, we get a little glimpse of, we'll learn more about this mind control device and seemingly

it's referred to as the automated man. So we're not only using robots, but trying to turn people into robots and to remove their autonomy. And the snake oil salesman is completely on board for that. The only other interesting tidbit, snake oil salesman, will come back. I guess we can just call him SOS maybe for the rest of this pod, but he'll be back later. But we'll be back later. But we do also get a glimpse here of the VaultTech biorepository, and we get apparent confirmation that both Barbara and Janie Howard are in cryogenic repose in VaultTech HQ. Granted, we can't actually see them because of the frost on their cryopods, but the pods are on, at least they're powered.

So they do seem to be, unless this is another fake out or misdirect, they do seem to be in stasis here, which we've suspected all along and Kup has suspected for centuries. And this will, of course, play a prominent part in another scene in this episode, which we will get to. But another example of something that we sort of took for granted or assumed to be the case, but here at least is spelled out for us almost with certainty. You know, it could always be a trick. But it does appear that they are around and in this secret vault for management. Yeah, no, I thought that I was, I was definitely surprised that they actually showed the pods.

The fact that you don't know what it is. This entire time, I kind of suspected that maybe Janie would be awoken at some point and that it would be kind of like a Fallout 4 situation where Janie's older. I guess apologies for

spoilers if you haven't gotten that far in Fallout 4. But I like that they're actually moving closer because this has been one of the biggest mysteries throughout the entire series. We're getting a lot of development really quickly in this one episode. Yeah, getting closer to closure for Coop slash the Cool.

So let's transition from Hank to his son, Norm, who has tried to follow in his footsteps and step into his shoes, but not with a ton of success. So Buds, Buds, and Norm make it to the Voltaic office building. And there they find a couple other guest stars from way back in, what, the second episode of the series, Barv and Mod. June from Philly last season, who have relocated, thanks to Philly being destroyed by the Brotherhood and co. They have now set up shop or squat. They're raising rad roaches, more power to them. And they deliver a little exposition to Buds Buds, and to Norm. And mostly, they confirm

to Norm that Lucy at least was alive at one point that she met up with Majun. I enjoyed the line where Majune is kind of catching Norm up and says, had her help a fella from the enclave, get through the shithole to some folks from the NCR who weren't in town when Shady Sands blew up. And Norm says, I don't understand what any of that means. I'd imagine that there are many non-game players in the audience who identified with that, probably, because a lot of the lore drops this season, perhaps disorienting if you were just trapped in a vault, essentially, and we're not up on current events in the Fallout universe. Just the best possible response you could have to an exposition dump two.

Yeah. Just like, huh? Yeah. A lot of the dialogue exchanges recently have very much reminded me of dialogue exchanges in a fallout game where it's just kind of, you know, one person says something sort of noncommittal and it's just a prompt for some other branch on the dialogue tree and someone just keeps speaking. So Mad June tells Norm that Lucy is dead. He, of course, doesn't buy it, doesn't heed her warnings any more than Lucy does.

These McLean's are just built different. Majune offers them supplies. I thought this was interesting. And Barb says, suddenly you're a good Samaritan. And Mahjune says, baby, shut the fuck up. I'm trying to be a better person. Do you think that's the influence of Lucy on her? Because we've talked a lot about how the wasteland has rubbed off on Lucy.

But is it possible that she and her golden rule are actually rubbing off on other people in this fallen world that maybe Mahjune, just her brief and count? with Lucy and her selflessness and willingness to help out others is now being paid forward. That's a good point. I don't really think about it that way. But, I mean, she really had quite a traumatic episode in Philly with just, I keep forgetting the Benjamin Linus character. I just think of him as Benjamin Linus. I just think of his Benjamin Linus. Just that whole, you know, having his leg blown off and just trying to help him out there. And she went through a lot in that situation. And I don't know what they've had to deal with ever since, but it's a good point. Maybe Lucy is having a good impact. Yeah. I'd like to think. It's in the wasteland one by one.

Right. Yeah. This world is not so unredeemable and unsalvageable that she can't lend a little bit of her wide-eyed optimism to some of the people who have been living in this world for a long time. I am reminding myself that it's Wiltsig is the name of the character played by Michael Emerson, aka Benjamin Linus. But yeah, he's so Benzlinus. Yeah, he is. So Ronnie wants to contact the investors. He is suspicious of Norm and Norm's apparent ignorance of Ronnie's plan here.

And Ronnie's, he's a real piece of work. He just, he seems like a character from industry or something. He's just a real alpha business bro. And Norm seems to find this kindred spirit in Claudia. And they have another heartfelt exchange. And, you know, Norm's maybe making moves on Claudia a little bit, but also just he identifies with her. She also seems not to know what is going on here. She seems not to fit in.

Claudia confides that her cat was named puppy. They have a little bittersweet laugh about that. My wife had a childhood cat named dog. So maybe this is not uncommon. Yeah, not dog meat, just dog. They go to Barb's office. So this was interesting. I think another reason why this episode worked so well is that the Norm plot line didn't feel so divorced from everything else that was going on.

Right. Because it's all kind of linking up because we get the confirmation. We get the mention of Barb. She's but Askins's boss. She's the one overseeing F.E.V. seemingly. And Norm gets the confirmation on her computer. in her office. So it feels like it's all coming together a little bit. And I've been wondering about that. I'm still wondering about that with the other vaulty storylines. But here at least, this feels

linked to what we're seeing in the flashback with Coop and even in the present with the cryogenically frozen barb. There's some barb reference or presence in basically all of our plot lines and timelines here. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, even at the end of the last episode that we recorded, one of the things that I was saying that I was looking forward to, was just seeing how this was going to happen over the course of the season in terms of these separate plot lines coming together. And it's happening a lot quicker than I expected, which is, I think, great. Because I think that's been one of the main issues of just having so many storylines

because you can just have an episode where you don't worry about what's happening in Vault 32 or 33. But now we're even seeing that the whole with the whole FVV virus, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more, how it's, This is potentially going to react back to what's going on there right now. Still the main thing we need to see is how the Brotherhood of Steel fits into everything. And that's, I think, going to be the biggest hurdle for the back half of this to continue to cross. Do you trust Claudia? Because she's just a little too sympathetic a character to me.

I don't trust her because, I mean, for a while there, I thought maybe that it would be revealed that she was trying to draw Norm out or something. and she was in cahoots with Ronnie. That doesn't appear to be the case. Ronnie is hiding from her in the shadows when she walks by before he ambushes Norm. But I'm kind of confused about Claudia's motivations here because why did she join this group, right? She left all her loved one. She's lamenting that they're all dead. She says everything these people talked about sounded pretty nutty to her.

And she says they bet their whole lives on Bud Askins and his weird multi-millennial plan. didn't she also, if not, how did she end up in stasis with all of these people? How do you go from just being in ValtTech orientation a week earlier to being frozen with the true believers for centuries here? What is happening here? Is the sniffles and the damsel in distress and all of that is, is this an act? It's definitely very suspicious. Just the fact that she's only been with this company for a week and she's just cool with

giving that all up, leaving that all behind. But she would also be really committing to this like long con with Norm where she's just crying on the side. I do think that maybe she is the one outlier just to show that there, the fact that she's only been there for one week, that there are not all like this. But a lot of the times we're being misdirected in the show. So you very well might be right. Yeah. I just, I wonder if she's a plant from some other faction or, yeah, like a mole or a spy or something. because something's not adding up here.

I mean, I'm happy for Norm to have some giggles in a little crush and to, you know, have the first drink of his life or was about to, sadly, deprived of that by Ronnie. But yeah, it's just, it's not math in for me here. I don't know if, you know, maybe she just enlisted under duress, like it was clear that the nuclear apocalypse was about to happen. Although, you know, when we see the very first scene of this series, right, it wasn't apparent to everyone that that. the bombs were about to drop. I mean, everyone knew there was a risk and they're all just trying to

grin and bear it and stiff up her lip and ignore the risk and everything. But they're having a birthday party. They're not aware that the bombs are dropping imminently. So that's the only thing I could think that she just sort of was, you know, pressured into signing up just to survive by her family and friends. And then she ends up in this situation. But I don't know. It's just why is she the outlier, why is she the one who is not nutty like everyone else? Perhaps we will find out, as for now, Ronnie makes very quick work of Norm. Norm's build. He's more about like the tech and the stealth and, you know, the computer skills. He's not really much of a warrior, not great in combat and does not put up much of a fight here. So Ronnie makes quick work of him,

strangles him into unconsciousness, and now he has been exposed, and we'll see where things go from there. But since FV is invoked and confirmed here, so it is, in fact, not future enterprise ventures. It is the forced evolutionary virus. Did you get the sense that FV was code, that Ronnie knows what that is, and was just sort of saying, you know, a different interpretation of that for the benefit? of other people listening? Or do you think that he doesn't even know what it is and he's just sort of screwing up the acronym?

It's a good question because I'm definitely a little bit skeptical of Ronnie. And he was very clever about, you could see from that first interaction, and I think a couple episodes ago when they were getting all the blamco mac and cheese from those trucks that he didn't exactly trust what he was seeing from Norm as well. So he very well might know more than he's letting on. But the fact that he was just Bud's assistant as well, and he was just, you know, as he said to Norm, the guy delivering lunches,

he really might not know either. And maybe we'll get into it more, but there was that Entertainment Weekly article that you sent me with the interview with the co-show runner, Geneva Robertson, Dorrit. And she had one comment where she was suggesting that this was just a mistake that Ronnie met, that Ronnie had made.

Yeah. So that makes me think that maybe he actually doesn't know too. So yeah, he knows more than norm maybe, but he is just a glorified gopher. He wasn't even trying to say like, yeah, I was Bud's designated successor or something. Bud's supposed to be around, right? And so he is kind of taking charge. He's, you know, a corporate climber. I guess that's what Bud's Bud's Bud's were groomed to be. So he's, he's pulling a maximus in season one, basically. And he's just a jumped up leader all of a sudden who was more in the rank and file, but he just overheard things. So if that's true, then it makes sense to me that that could have gotten garbled and he might have just misremembered or something.

But we know more from the Fallout lore. And we talked a little bit about FEV and the history of that. It's bad news in many Fallout games. And maybe we'll get into this a little later also. But, you know, I assume that this is just part and parcel with the whole plan to, emerge and reclaim the earth and remake it. And maybe this is just sort of the central experiment of the vaults here. You know, we know that obviously there's genetic experimentation going on in various vaults. We've seen the products of that. And so is this just essentially an effort to

create superhumans, right? That's what the organism does. The virus creates these super organisms who, in theory, at least, are sort of the, you know, perfect immortal versions of humanity or whatever is infected by it. Is that, do you think, the end game here for Hank or for Voltaic? It seems very possible. I mean, one of the things that I really liked about all this, like, I'm very curious to see where it goes and how much this starts to be coming about super mutants, but just Barb's involvement in all of this and how, like, really just now wondering, like,

the revelation that she might be the one behind all of this. FVV stuff, I think is really, really interesting. And just now that we know that we're going to get to see more of this, like with a tease at the end of the episode, with Kup and Barb finally having that conversation, it's going to be fascinating to see how much she actually knows about everything that's going on. Right. Yes. How implicated and complicit is she?

And why is she doing all of this? Those are some big questions that come out of this episode. And maybe Koup and Barbara are about to have a difficult conversation about that in an upcoming episodes. But I like that at least there's potential to sort of raise the bar when it comes to monsters and adversaries because we've seen Death Clause now. So where do you go from there? Well, we haven't seen super mutants, I guess. So there's always that. So you can escalate things to super mutants, you know, infected by F.E.V. There's also an Easter egg, as you noted to me before we started recording in this episode where there's a famous photo or portrait of Mr. House or

I guess the body double of Mr. House in the game where he's standing in front of the legs of Liberty Prime, which is a giant U.S. Army combat robot constructed pre-war. And we see that, again, mirrored here in the show in live action with the body double standing in that same pose. And so, you know, we've seen security robots here of various kinds and maybe Liberty Prime is out there somewhere. So the monsters can always get bigger and badder is what I'm saying. We're only midway through season two, and this show probably has a lot of runway left. So let's get, I guess, speaking of monsters, that's a natural transition to Lucy and the ghoul. And we pick up where we left them in the present, right where the episode four left off. And they appear to be in quite a predicament, not just one death claw, but a trio of death clause.

and they decide that discretion is the better part of valor. They don't have rocket launchers. They don't have the weaponry to take on Death Clause head on. And so they flee. Thaddeus would be proud of the quick exit they make here. They follow dog meat through a gap in the fence to safety. Dogbeat, not exactly heroic on his part either, but, you know, leads them to safety.

I guess we could charitably interpret it that way. And as Lucy describes them, they are surprisingly smelly. lizard monster bull things, which is pretty accurate, I guess. I like how she scoffs when the ghoul says that they are called death clause. She's like, death clause, that's what they're called. I mean, you know, video game batty names are often sort of simplistic, but it does kind of describe what they do. So I don't blame them for running.

Although, you know, when the ghoul says you can't just waltz past a pack of death clause, Is that not what they just did, essentially? I mean, I guess it's like one does not simply walk into the secret management vault situation, but they did kind of just waltz past a pack of death clause. Yeah, it is really interesting to see that they also just won't leave this one area. This is their territory because they could definitely just break through that gate if they really wanted to. That's what I'm thinking, like what the proximity of a den of death clause does to property value. using Frieside, which are probably not sky high to begin with, but that appears to be a pretty

flimsy fence. I would not really expect that to hold back the death clause, and everyone just seems to be kind of cool with it. Just, yeah, a bunch of death claws moved in from Quarry Junction, which we mentioned last week. That's a death claw hotspot in Fallout New Vegas, which I remember clearing out when I played that game, but evidently that didn't stick into the future here. So seems like a hazard to have a whole group of death clause so close to Freeside. But I guess it works out well for Hank if this is an additional impediment and layer of protection for him and his secret vault. I did enjoy, though, once we get past this entrance to New Vegas, that Freaside is intact,

is thriving, is bustling, and looks a lot like the video game version. And that's nice. It's a nice change because this season has really been all. about seeing even more run-down destroyed versions of Fallout New Vegas locations, you know, which are not really at their peak in the game in many cases, but they've all fallen on even harder times. So it's nice to see that Freaside is still standing here. Definitely. Just going back to the death clause for a second, too, I really appreciated it in the Atomic Rangler, the bartender, just talking about the merry-year-round of the people running

the strip and how, you know, now it's Seth Claus, whatever, it's NCR, Legion, just don't tax me lizard, something like that. Right. Yeah. He's like, you know, don't tell me what to do. Oh, is somebody trying to tell me what to do. And then the ghoul tells him what to do, which is stop talking. And he does because when the ghoul tells you to stop talking, probably a good idea.

That bartender, by the way, is Edwin Lee Gibson, aka Abraham from the bearer who has now, I knew he looked familiar. Yeah, yeah. So he's franchised, I guess. He has branched out. I hope he's operating a sandwich window somewhere on the side of the atomic wrangler. We don't see that. But I enjoyed that interaction too because that was also sort of like an NPC kind of interaction in a game where you just have a drink and someone just starts talking at you and just telling you their thoughts on everything for no particular reason, which I guess, you know, that's something bartenders do.

But I did enjoy that because that must be what it's like to live in this world where you're not the decision maker and it's just constantly one faction taking over after another. And yeah, I guess, you know, one faction kind of blends into another after all of this change. So that does sort of sum up what has happened to this world in the past 15 years. And we also get the ghoul telling Lucy what he's after here, which, you know, she sort of knew, but. He tells her a little bit more about how he's found a few of these special vaults for management, but they've all been empty. However, he has not found the one in Vegas, which he is hoping is where his wife and daughter are. And seemingly that's the case. And this reminds me of the ghoul's line from the season premiere when they enter vault 24.

And he says that he's been in a lot of vaults before. And Lucy says something about how he must like them. And he says, every time I step foot in one of these concrete. shoe boxes, I got to make peace with the fact that I might finally learn what happened to my wife and my daughter, whether they be alive, dead, or something far worse. So he has a lot of experience with vaults, but also complicated feelings about them, too. Now, Lucy, despite having narrowly escaped death by death claw, she is just as confident as ever. And I don't know if this is the buffout speaking or if it's just Lucy, but undeterred.

She says, I think we should just go in there and get them. She does acknowledge, I'll admit, I am in an altered mental state, but I think we should just shoot these monsters in the face. Again, this is another example of Lucy never learning a lesson. Maybe at the end of this episode, maybe perhaps she will finally learn a lesson. But she just, you know, you can't get her down, really. So is this the buff out speaking or can you just not get this out of Lucy? this just eternal optimism slash arrogance slash overconfidence. I think that's what I've been enjoying to see so much over these past couple episodes especially

because whether it is the buffout or not, we still see some of those core elements of her morality and her character always shining through. And especially in this transition of when she actually takes the addict doll and she actually beats the addiction, it's just like she's starting to reckon with the person that the wasteland is turning her into. So all of this evolution that we've been wanting to see for her, all of this growth, I think, has been coming through in a really nice way and it culminates in this episode, really nicely. Yeah, I guess the drugs heighten who she is. Right.

I think it's a testament to Ella Pernell's performance because Lucy could very easily get on my nerves. Like, I could just be sick of Lucy, just constantly wandering from crisis to crisis and charging headlong into the next one. And yet, I just, I find this character quite endearing, even. as she keeps repeating the same mistake. Mostly, I think, because of Ella Pernail's portrayal and just the way that she handles the humor of it, just really effectively. So kudos to her, I guess, for keeping me from getting annoyed at Lucy and doesn't always apply to the ghoul, but she's growing on the ghoul, even, at least until the end of this

episode when he is forced to turn on her, but we're not there yet. So the ghoul and Lucy part ways here temporarily. And Lucy heads to sunny sundries to get cleaned up. The ghoul heads to the bar to get fucked up. And she does get this treatment that he recommends, which is good because I mentioned last week that there are other recourses for drug addiction, chem addiction in the Fallout universe that he presents it as a binary choice, basically just go cold turkey and suffer withdrawal symptoms for several days.

or keep taking drugs, there is another way, which is that you could take something that cures you, at least temporarily of that addiction. I mentioned Fixer last week, which is the Fallout New Vegas solution to that problem. But Addictal is more of a fallout for Fallout 76 substitute. So it's interesting because there's so much Fallout New Vegas in this episode and this series and the season. But sometimes it just draws on artifacts of other Fallout games in cases where they could easily use something from file at New Vegas. My theory is that in the game, I think Fixer comes in a tin, whereas a dick doll is an inhaler, as we see.

We see Lucy use it here. And that kind of mirrors the ghoul's dependence on his inhaler and his vials. And we see her take a whiff of this thing. And she even uses her prosthetic finger to inject it. And I thought that was kind of a purposeful allusion to how their stories and characters are blending together. And even if he is sort of necessarily dependent on that substance and he's helping wean her off it, they are kind of doing some of the same things to cope and to survive in this world. Yeah, I mean, I think this show at large has always done such a good job of just weaving these elements from the game that the players are going to recognize.

immediately, but just do it so naturally where it just doesn't feel like it's something like that as an Easter egg. It's just, it just makes sense for her to be using this and for this kind of thing to be a part of this world. Yeah. So Lucy arrives at Sunny Sundries where there has been some serious inflation. A Dick Dahl is not going for 125 caps. It's going for a thousand, which makes me think that the guy we see in Freeside at the beginning

of the scene, the sandwich board guy, who has the sign that says, beat me up for four caps. he's got to hike his prices because four caps doesn't buy what it used to. You can't get anything for four caps anymore. She also uses the employee's entrance instead of going in the front door. And who among us has not snuck in a side entrance and pilfered a few items in a fallout game?

But there are consequences to that. And Lucy fails the stealth check and is confronted by Simon the shockkeeper who is definitely not sunny and does not fit into Sonny's clothes, though he is trying valiantly. By the way, she has already grabbed a power fist for 10,000 caps, but she has grabbed one for free.

That will come in handy, so to speak, Chekhov's Powerfist will return later in this episode. But this is a pretty consequential confrontation here because, you know, she interrogates Simon. She asks if he's Sunny. He claims that Sunny has left town, which I guess is true in a manner of speaking from a certain point of view. The guy in the trash can, the cut up corpse. That is, he says, the guy who tried to rob the place, but certainly bears a strong resemblance to Sunny himself. So there is a showdown, and we get this little OK corral gunfight and Lucy draws faster and guns down Simon the shopkeeper and is racked with guilt immediate. And this is a big step along her path, her moral decline.

She has finally taken a life and not a feral ghoul life, an actual living life. Yeah, I thought this whole sequence was really great and just really well done, especially with the way that she just reacts to it and the immediate next customer coming in and her having to reckon with it within seconds. And I was also just like, I've been thinking about this since last episode too. Lucy's such a good shot. And she has like such quick hands. Yeah.

I have been wondering like how she got so good at this. Yeah. Yeah. Although here, I guess if we take her at her word, she misses, right? Because she's true. That's fair. She's not shooting to kill. At least she says she's not.

She says she intends to maim him. Now is that the drugs? Is that her inner killer? coming out? Is it, you know, finding free expression when she gunned down the kings in the last episode? And now she's addicted to that too. I don't know. That's open to interpretation too. And then, yeah, someone comes in the next shopper and says, who are you? The most devastating, who are you since Andor season two? And, and Lucy says, I don't know. And that line, I guess it's kind of a cliche or it's kind of a pat bit of dialogue. You know she's going to say, I don't know.

And yet that's another example of how that line was delivered. And there's just some real pathos there. And she says it in this very hollow way. She's lost her bearing. She just is questioning who she is too. So again, testament to Ella Pernel's performance, I think, elevating some more run-of-the-mill material. And, you know, it's like, do we give her a pass for this situation?

There are a lot of mitigating circumstances, clearly. She is robbing a robber. she's killing a killer. Maybe she didn't intend to kill him. She's on drugs. He is not just a robber and a killer, but he's a price gouger and a profiteer. So, you know, maybe Freaside is better off without this guy. And maybe if she feels bad about it, you kind of give her a pass.

But it's definitely uncharted territory for her to actually kill someone. So, you know, major milestone for Lucy. And we'll see whether this pulls her back from the brink or. or this is kind of crossing the Rubicon, and now she'll just be going in guns blazing, not even bothering to try to take the stealth approach. Yeah, I think it's just really nice to have something like this happen right now, too, before presumably she has a conversation with Hank in the upcoming episode,

if not later on. Yeah. I can't imagine that they're actually just going to knock her out and have her wake up in the vault. I feel like that would be pretty disappointing after her coming all this way, both for her and the audience. But now that she has done some of these things, it's going to be a lot more interesting for her to face her father again and maybe understanding where he's come from a little bit more, even though destroying all of shady sands and killing a robber here or there or some ghouls is a little bit different. But, yep. Yeah, it's tough to get past that.

And also tough to reckon with the fact that her whole moral compass was instilled by her father. right. So even if he is really amoral or he has a morality that she rejects and doesn't share now, he's kind of the one who taught her the golden rule, presumably. So how do you square that with yourself if you were kind of taught your whole moral system by someone you now see as a monster? But she is at least now newly clean. She has vacated the contents of her stomach. And she goes back to the room at the Wrangler. seems to be ready maybe for a nap might be nice after this. She's been through a lot, but it's not over for her. The snake oil salesman has shown up, and he is dapperly dressed. Hank has outfitted SOS in business casual here, although I can't say he cleans up well, you know, like in the button down and the khaki. He's not really pulling this off.

He still has the, like, haunted look. He still looks very scary. The red-rimmed eyes. Yeah. So, yeah, he doesn't, the dress code doesn't really apply so well to SOS. But he proposes a deal, which is almost more of an ultimatum. The ghoul's family, Barbara and Janie, they get to keep sleeping as long as the ghoul brings Lucy back to the vault where this all started. Because Hank has plans for the world that he does not want Lucy exposed to, perhaps relating to F.

or the automated man and mind control devices. And the goal regretfully says, Lucy, I brought you here to bargain with. This is the bargain. And again, he seems to be very broken up by this betrayal here and yet not really conflicted about it, perhaps. And although she clearly is hurt and betrayed, you'd think that with some time, maybe she might understand it too, because it's all about family, right? and family's a fucked up thing, as the ghoul says. Yeah, especially because earlier in the episode, too, he told her exactly what he was hoping to do.

She now knows the plan of him searching for his family this whole time. And he's finally reached this after all these years, after centuries of trying to do this. So I think she's going to have to reconcile with that fact and that he had to do what he had to do. And this is just the golden rule, as you've been calling it, you know? Yeah. Yeah, we've been wondering just like the little signs of tenderness that the ghoul has shown toward her or he'll save her. He'll bail her out of these situations that she helps get them into.

And even in the first scene of this episode, he drags her under the fence out of the death clause grasp. And then when she comes back to the room, you know, he tells her to go to the window to finish vomiting. And he kind of puts a hand tenderly on her shoulder. Pulls up the chair. Like, yeah, right. And, you know, as he says, least he can do. considering that he's about to Landau Calrizi and her, I guess, but still, like, you know, and like Landau, you know, maybe couldn't be helped and the bargain gets altered and this is the

situation that you are placed into, but it is sort of tragic because, as Lucy says, we were actually beginning to get along and the ghoul agrees and says, yeah, so I think that confirms that there is some real feeling and affection here, but not enough to prevent him from tranquilizing her, which she's been through a lot. Like her system, she's going to need that nap because the buff out, it's like almost dying before the buff out and then curing herself of addiction, but like upchucking everything and then suddenly getting trinked. I mean, this is this is a lot to go through in a short span of time.

Are you at all surprised that the ghoul acquiesced that easily? Or do you think that he actually was going to? because he doesn't even get proof of cryogenic life, right? Like, as far as we know, he doesn't know that Janie and Barb are actually alive. Hank could be bluffing for all he knows, right? He doesn't get any guarantees unless there was more said before we joined the scene. We don't know what SOS said to him, but it's not like bring her back to the vault and then come back. And I will saw Barb and Janie and you'll all be together again.

And it's just kind of, you know, he gets nothing out of this deal aside from what he already had at the beginning, which is that they are still in cryogenic sleep. I guess all he gets is some assurance that they are there and that they will keep living on. But he doesn't even really know that for sure. Yeah, I did find that part a little bit surprising because like now that he's not to go too far ahead, but now that he's been impaled. it's like why would Hank hold up his end of the bargain? I don't know that he's such a good guy that he's just going to do it now that this was the deal. And I don't know, maybe the goal didn't want to take it further and you really use Lucy as leverage. Because he could have just held her at gunpoint or something really forced Hank's hand a little bit more.

Maybe this was just the nicer way to go about it. But just after being in the wasteland for 200 years, yeah, I think you would probably be getting some of shirts. Yeah. Or could they not have double crossed SOS and tailed him, which, I mean, you know, Lucy's like, take us to your leader essentially. And he says, I can't, but what's to stop them from saying, yeah, sure, we'll go back to the vault and then just following him or something. I don't know whether the ghoul may have had other plans here, you know, that were disrupted. by Lucy getting the better of him. But I get it, like he's over a barrel and Hank has him where he wants him,

but I would have maybe expected a bit more fight in the ghoul. But I'm sure we're going to get some fight from him in upcoming episodes. So we're going to be jumping back and forth a bit in time here as we finish up with this present scene and then flash back. Did you think that Lucy just managed to overcome the tranquilizer through sheer force of will? Or because, you know, it seems like she's passing out. She's on the ground. And the next thing we know, she has Chekhov's power fist and she's punching the ghoul through the window and impaling him and, you know, doing a Obi-Wan, you know, we were brothers. I thought we were friends, right?

She has the high ground, unfortunately, for the ghoul. I also, it seemed like she was grasping for the addict doll when she was on the ground. So I don't know whether a dick doll has any properties that help overcome a tranquil. her temporarily or whether that being in her system helped her resist this or what. But that was quite a rebound, quite a revival for her to power fist the goal through the window after seeming to be on the precipice of unconsciousness. I had that thought too. I think it was just, at least the way I was looking at it was just one of these situations where you have to suspend your belief a little bit. Because I mean, even just like the fact that I don't, when do they

go to sleep? Lucy must be so exhausted. It seems like they just travel. It seems like they just travel. straight to free side after the whole death claw thing. And I don't know. I mean, I guess she got some sleep after being crucified for however long that was. To your point, to your point, she's, her body has been through so much for her to be able to push through this tranquilizer and then watch him out of the window like that. I don't know. But she, she is built different. As you said, McLeans are built different. Yeah. Yeah. There definitely is a lot of ghoul in her. And he's obviously able to pick himself up off some pretty challenging situations, including perhaps being impaled. So sure, she's learned from him, I guess. And, you know, there's just a lot of that kind of killer in

each of them. And, you know, I mentioned earlier just like the gesture, how she uses her finger to take a hit of the addict doll. And it's sort of like, you know, a dead lifeless finger kind of ghulified. It's almost like, you know, Luke in Return of the Jedi when he is forced to confront that he might be turning to the dark side and he kind of crinkles his machine hand and he's worried about becoming more machine than man. How many Star Wars references can I cram into a single Fallout podcast recap? We will find out. But yeah, so she rallies and it's tough to keep a good vaulty down, I guess. What I wonder is, and, of course, there's a parallel here where she and Kup, in the flashback, past Kup, both hit the floor under the influence of various substances,

and they are cared for revived by Hank and Barbara, whom they have complicated feelings about right now, right? So their saviors, the people who are tenderly mopping their brows, are also the people who kind of got them into these predicaments and whom they are trying to stop. So that was a nice parallel, I thought. What I wonder is, I mean, are Lucy and the ghoul going to finally be separated because they've been buddy buddy. They've been kind of the constant through this season, separated occasionally, but mostly they've been together while everything else has been fractured. And, you know, she's been the antidote essentially to his lack of humanity. How will they fare apart? now that she's been betrayed, albeit for understandable reasons, how will she react?

Will that finally be the thing that hardens her? And what will the show be like when we don't get the Lucy Gould buddy cop comedy dynamic? I mean, I at least hope that they're going to come back together soon because I really think it's been such a good dynamic. I think just their chemistry together is so fun. The way that they're both able to just go into this comedic space and to the dramatic space, like so seamlessly both of these actors are doing such a good job. And to your point, I really just like the way that they're juxtaposing the old Coop and Lucy. They've been doing this across the whole season. But in this episode in

particular, it's just really well done. And I think that's why this episode works so well. And like when the show is at its best this season is like when they really are just focusing on a few of these storylines. I think it does get really hard to have that thematic, those thematic, those shared themes across the different storylines really come through so, so well and so poignantly. Because, again, if you throw in something that's completely happening off of this like the Brotherhood of Steel, that feels like almost a different show, you kind of lose some of that focus. Yeah.

Yeah. And I would imagine that Maximus and Thaddeus might ride to the rescue here just based on where we left them and based on what we've seen in some of the trailers. that maybe that power armor and cold fusion that's in their possession could come in handy if they do have to fight their way through the Death Claw den to get to Hank and Lucy that maybe they can team up with Gould and they will come to her rescue and set up some big confrontation in the finale, perhaps. But I wonder whether we will spend a couple episodes apart and what that will do to the show

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Find yours at Target today. Okay, so that takes us to the consequential, pivotal, momentous flashback here. And we pick up with Coop and Barbara as they are in transit to old Las Vegas. And Coop has a clandestine rendezvous with Moldaver, aka Kate Williams, in the pre-war timeline. At the payphone, they do a little spycraft here, although they then abandon that after a while. and don't keep up the pretense, but she wants him to kill House, as we know. She reiterates if Robert House gets cold fusion, Valtek gets the bombs. This is the only way to stop it.

I think in this case, the ends justify the means. And the war-weary and world-weary coop says, you know, people have been saying shit like that for years. And he ultimately decides to leave the vial of presumably poison. He rejects her entreaty. He says, I'll stop the exchange, I'll get your cold fusion back. but I'm not going to kill a man to do it. So we see him leave the vial there. Of course, we know that he will be dependent on poison in the future,

and he will kill many more people in the future as well. You know, she says killing someone in a costume doesn't really make any difference. I guess he does essentially don a costume as the ghoul. He's the cowboy killer, right? Which is something that House brings up later in this flashback. But he decides that he's drawing the line here, that it's a little bit different to kill someone in power armor in war as opposed to poisoning house.

So she turns him down and maybe as we will learn, she does not know as much as she thinks she knows. So if you believe House anyway. We also get de-aged, I assume, CGI, D-Aged, Hank slash Kyle McLaughlin here, which was a little distracting to me. It was a very dial of destiny young Harrison Ford, Indiana Jones. kind of coded to me. But I guess he pulls it off.

At least he doesn't move like an old man like, you know, De Niro and the Irishman. But there's definitely something going on there with the VFX. I think I've gotten a little bit more used to it because it was so jarring the first time they did it in season one to me. Yeah. And now I've just kind of embraced it. But it is fun to see like that dynamic switch to where it's just like he's the young guy who's like loves Coop Howard and Coop's just kind of like looking at him. him as the assistant that he is.

Yeah, he's the eager beaver, and he's thrilled to have this case handcuffed to his arm, presumably containing the cold fusion. He feels very important, and he's just really chuffed that he's maybe an assassination target. That's just an indication to him of how he is rising in the ranks. So happy for Hank. Then we go to Vegas, and we see the lucky 38 and the strip in all its glory at the defense Contractor Summit. We have protesters. We have Securitrons. We have Martha Kelly returning as Congresswoman Welch. Coop helps her up when she's pushed down the stairs. And she says, fighting the good fight is mostly a series of humiliations. Ain't that the truth? And he's the only one in the crowd who lends her a helping hand and tells her to keep at it. So he's sort of a double agent here, even if he's not entirely doing Moldaver slash Kate's bidding. Everyone sees him.

as the guy who has, you know, basically sold out as one of the protesters yells to him. He's the guy with the thumbs up in the Voltaic uniform outside the summit. But inside, of course, he has regrets. And so he steps forward to help out the Congresswoman. This is also nice because we get to see just like Vegas and all its glory, which is just, you know, even in Fallout New Vegas, we're centuries on from pre-war. And here we get to see it. with all the lights and buzzers and everything.

And it looks great. Yeah, I think it was exactly like what you were saying about Freaside earlier and just like getting to see Freaside actually being active, being able to see the strip active and seeing the Securitrons around, seeing Victor before he's gone haywire, all of these things. It's like all the details are really nice. Like seeing the Vault Hotel, all these things that you get to see many years later in Fallout, New Vegas being able to see this in this pre-weigh.

wasteland world is a lot of fun. Victor looks a lot worse for wear in the post-apocalyptic timeline, but he's looking fresh here. And just as Coop is being all Agent 47 and Bondi and he's sidling around and he's maybe looking for an opening, no, actually House is onto him and sends his body double to come collect coop and says Mr. House would like to see you, which Coop takes in strike. but it's clear that there's some surprise on his face registering. I assume that this reveal of the Mr. House body double is much more shocking to coop than to most viewers of Fallout season two, I'd imagine. I don't know whether this was like played as if it was supposed to be a reveal, but I assume that it's been telegraphed clearly enough at this point that the makers of Fallout are not expecting anyone to go, whoa, that's not the real Robert House.

I, right, we're not so smart that we saw this coming. I think you're supposed to, right? Yeah, no, I felt exactly the same way. And they didn't, they didn't make it seem like it was this whole big reveal too. It was like very, very casual, very quick. Yeah, no dramatic musical notes or anything. But the double takes, uh, takes Coop to Mr. House and to Victor. And Coop is, of course, surprised to see the real Robert House from the fucking toilet, as he says.

because this is not the first time they have met. And House knows or thinks he knows that Coop has come to kill him. And this is just an immediate indication that House knows a lot, but he doesn't know everything and he doesn't know as much as he thinks he knows. It's impressive that he is aware of the mission that was entrusted to Coop, but he does not know what is in Coop's head and that Coop has already resolved not to kill him. So I don't know whether he has a source inside. the Kate slash Moldaver organization or whether the algorithms have just revealed what has to be happening here because of this surprise visit.

But he does not know all. And I thought it was also a nice touch when they had this little standoff when House tells him to come down and talk. And Coop seems inclined to stay where he is. That House seems very frustrated that he can't just command Coop to come to him and do his bidding. And we know this is a guy who has a mind control device and does not hesitate to use it and thinks nothing of other people. He is the puppet master pulling strings. And he wants people to just do his bidding. And it's clear that Coop will not.

And you can immediately see he, the composure slips, you know, that like practice polished veneer. You can see that he's on tilt a little bit just because Coop will not comply. Yeah, that's a great point. And this whole scene was so good. I think this was one of my favorite scenes of the whole season, if not the whole show. And I think it was definitely when you interviewed Justin Throw earlier in the season. I think this is probably what he was referring to and having that little like Tetot Tets with Walton Goggins here. Just seeing both of these actors at the top of their game here was just so fun.

Yeah. These guys are so good. Yeah. Yeah. This series, the acting elevates everything really. Just, you know, from the guest stars to the lead. They're just all excellent, and that really kind of classes up the joint. So we learned that the fake house has been body doubling for about a decade.

It's a living, he says. I guess Coop can identify with, you know, they're both actors. They're both playing parts. And sometimes the parts are not very rewarding, but this one presumably is financially. So he exits stage left, and then they have the place to themselves, aside from Victor, I guess. And so House tells us a lot here. He says, I was there with you in Alaska, which Coop, of course, doubts. But this is not exactly stolen valor.

He is just saying in his own in immutable way that he saw what Coop saw because he licensed a piece of software to West Tech that allowed him to view the T-45 visor that Coop is seeing. So he knows about the death claw, the demon in the snow, as he so poetically puts it, the title of last week's episode. And he says cryptically, I believe that it's connected to the future of this great nation and to your wife. So we have a sense, even people who haven't played Fallout New Vegas have a sense of who house is and what he wants and how he operates. But we see much more of that here for the first time in the show. And he is presented as this all-knowing person, right?

And he says, I know everything. That's his job to know everything. but it is immediately clear that he does not, that in fact, there is a lot that he does not know, and that he finds that quite irksome. His line delivery on Erksson was so good. A lot of these line deliveries are fantastic, including Goggins from the fucking toilet line. I had to play that back a few times. Yeah, so is he, does he, he's the man who knows too much, but also does not know enough.

And so there are some major gaps in his knowledge here. And I guess, you know, this is a very Jonathan Nolan involved in this show, of course, and also in Westworld and person of interest. And in all of these shows, there is sort of an obsession with predicting the future and soothsaying and computers and algorithms just knowing what will happen before it happens. This is very, you know, for the foundation fans out there, this is very houses Harry Selden and he's run the numbers and he is able to foresee the future to an extent. And his plan is that Cold Fusion, which he is about to acquire, will allow him to stay alive indefinitely, he says, in roboticized, non-biological form and protect Las Vegas from the coming nuclear war, which, Coop says, initiated by my wife, House says, unclear. Coop says by Voltaic then, House says, no, I doubt that, despite what we both heard in that meeting, which is also interesting. Obviously, House was not physically there. His body double was, but he was listening.

He also knows somehow that Coop was eavesdropping on that meeting. He wasn't physically there either. So does he have a mole somehow in the Kate Moldaver group? Moldaver, even though she seemingly sent Coop to kill House, is that not actually the case? We don't know. We don't know exactly how he is obtaining his information here. He says, I routinely design and run methods. mathematical paradigms based on global, political, and socioeconomic conditions in an effort

to predict future events. So he has some mainframes. It's some techno babble. Don't question it too much, but he knows a lot. So what do you make of all of these revelations? I guess it's not really a revelation to fallout New Vegas fans and players that House didn't drop the bombs or so he says he won't be the one to do it. But is he trustworthy?

Can we take him at his word? because of course we know he's duplicitous. He has, after all, been hiding behind a body double for a decade. Yeah, exactly. I think that's what makes it so fun is because you really just don't know what he, what his role in all of this is, especially after you just seen only one side of it and you just kind of trust that mold ever is right and that he's actually going to be the one that's going to do all of this. I think one of the things that I really I thought was really interesting and I'm looking

forward to see is just this whole element. of the death clause, the role in the future, and Barbara's connection to all of it. And just seeing how all that ties together, because we do see a lot that there is just some innate intelligence with these death clause, I think, time and time again, whether that was, whether the death claw ignoring Coop in that flashback in the previous episode, like, they're making these little decisions. And the West tech of it all, like Barbara's being the boss of Bud, like whatever factions are within the factions is really cool that there is teasing all this out a little bit. Yeah.

And another comment that Dwart made in that Entertainment Weekly interview that you referenced, she was likening this scene to a scene in one of the Fallout Out games where, you know, you have. various companions who present the perspective of certain factions in the games, but then maybe they're biased or maybe they have a myopic view. And then you hear from someone else who has a different story and tells you their truth or their version of it. And suddenly that sounds persuasive. So she said, I think this is very true of the fallout universe, but also real life. Whatever faction you're a part of, you walk in there with the information from one faction and you actually listen to the other side. It might change your perspective greatly. And how everyone sense of reality is deeply informed by the ideology or a faction that they are coming from,

which in this case, Coop has been provided information at this point by Moldaver largely about what's going on. And then he has his suspicions about Robert House and then he gets to talk to Robert House directly and hear from him, things that make him doubt prior assumptions that he had. So I would not go so far as to say that House is actually the good guy. And Justin Thoreau certainly didn't say that when he was on this podcast. But the motivations may be more complicated then Moldaver lets on. And does she know that? Or is she trying to manipulate Coop to her own ends?

Who knows? It's just shifting sands here, right? And clearly, House is frustrated by Coop because Coop is kind of the fly in the ointment. It's like a Princess and the Pea sort of situation, you know? It's like he's the one disruptive, chaotic element here in his Harry Selden-style psychohistory and his prime radiant mainframes, you know, something goes haywire

because Coop seems to be integrally involved and House can't figure out why this Hollywood cowboy would play such a pivotal part in the apocalypse, in the end of the world. And now that's a big question in the show as well. So he says that April 14th, 2065 at 517 a.m., that was when his data coalesced

and said the world would end. And that was when Janie, the daughter of Kup and Barbara, was born. So probably not a coincidence. What is it about the birth of Janie that seals the fate of the world? And then he also reveals that the moment that Kup bought his ticket to Las Vegas to accompany Barb on this trip that he wasn't supposed to go on, then the date the world was going to end jumped forward by one month. So the apocalypse is actually projected to come sooner because Kup made this trip that was

supposed to forestall the apocalypse. So how does Coop figure into all of this and Barb? Do you take this as the daughter being born just sort of cement the motivations of Barbara and or Coop that in order to safeguard her, preserve her life in some way, they will end up ringing about the end of the world? Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question. And it's really fun, I think, about this scene is just seeing Coop try to process it all in real time, too because he came here thinking that he was going to do this simple tax well maybe not so simple

but taking the the cold fusion like stopping this whole bargain and just to have that all completely upended almost immediately and then seeing that he's a part of this bigger picture is it's a lot of fun seeing him reckon with that now I don't know exactly how it's going to happen and again I think that's that's what's so fun about this because he is just he feels like a bystander in all of this. And I think he's so good at just playing this like very clueless. He's a lot like Lucy in that way. He's a lot of these things are happening where he's still trying to hold onto his morals, but he's kind of just going with it. And he's, he's being a little bit too trusting of everybody. And now, now he has this other voice. Yeah, the Janie connection makes me

think that inadvertently, Coup or Barbara, Coup and Barbara will bring about the very thing that they'd prefer to prevent in order to save Jamie, that they'll have to make some difficult. decision in order to have her secreted away in the management vault that they will doom the rest of the world in the process. I'm not sure exactly how that will play out. And House says, the bombs will not be dropped by me or any of the idiots at that meeting. Now, you know, he's the man who knows everything, but he is not actually infallible. So we don't have to trust that this is the truth. But it could be, right? He has a theory that there's another player at the table the same unknown entity responsible for your demon in the snow.

Coop says who, and the man who says, I know everything, says, I don't know, which seems like it's kind of a contradiction. But never mind that. So this is irksome to him. And I like also the way Thoreau plays this because it's almost like when the ghoul who has seen everything and survived everything, when he comes face to face with the death claw again, he actually feels fear. And you can see that on his noseless face. And it seems like House feels fear too because his whole existence, he is trying to safeguard Vegas and himself and the future by knowing everything and collecting all this information and being able to anticipate everything. And Coop is the one thing that he just cannot predict. And that clearly causes him to lose his cool a little bit.

You know, he goes from this cool, calm collected billionaire to the Howard Hughes that he's based on to this guy who's disturbed. and ranting and yelling, right? So I wonder just what you think of what this means for the show, because this does seem to be now kind of the all-consuming question and mystery at the heart of the series. And I don't think of this as a mystery box show, really. It's not a show where I'm just eager to see the next episode because there might be some tid-bud, some morsel of plot that is finally revealed, and I just need to know what happens and what will happen next. I enjoy the show for a lot of reasons.

for the dialogue and the acting and the world and all of it, but it's not so much just to find out what happens or what happened. But this is sort of spinning things in that direction, where the show wants us to be asking as its characters are asking, who ends the world as House yells here. So do you find this irksome not to know who ends the world? And is this something that makes you want to watch, that you want this to be a central focus of the series?

Yeah, I think that is a really great question, and it's a fun topic to think about. Because, I mean, to your point about not wanting this to be a mystery box show or not really thinking about it, I think that's been one of the big switches from going to the weekly release model in this season. Because now we have all that extra time to really dwell on it. Now they can really suspend those mysteries for longer across the season rather than us being able to disbinge it all in a day or so. But I don't know if I really need to know. who drops it because I think that's one of the things that's so fun as a through line through the fallout games is that you don't really know and that's kind of besides the point because everybody is at fault in some way and it doesn't really matter who who's the one that led us here. But I think it would be a really fun way to kind of elevate this show and separate it from the games as well.

So I'm all for it. I didn't expect this to be the direction. But yeah, yeah, it's been present, obviously, and it's since the start of the series. But now it's attaining a new prominence. And it sounds like that will continue to be the case because, again, in that entertainment weekly interview with Robertson, Dwarrett, they do ask her, you know, are we going to learn more about this and on what sort of timeline? And she says, you know, she makes it sound like we're not going to know soon, but that this is, she puts it a series long interest that we have. So that suggests that we're not about to find out who dropped the bombs if we ever do that this might be the culmination of the series. It's a tough spot to be in as an interviewer after like episode five when you're trying to probe a showrunner about like secrets that clearly they don't want to reveal or it would have just been in the episode. So you know, you ask the right questions about like, what does this mean?

And then they're always just like, that's the question, isn't it? Yes, it sure is. It's tough on both sides of it too. It is. You just have to be diplomatic in your responses. without being a dick and being like, eh, you can't really say anything. Right. They can't give anything away.

They don't want to let anything slip, but they want to be entertaining and engaging. But how can you? Because there's only so much you can say. So you have to be diplomatic. And yeah, don't flub anything. Don't give the game away. So I wonder, you know, if there is this entity, this mysterious party that's responsible for the death claw and also maybe for dropping the bombs.

Do you have any ideas about who or what that might be? I'm still wondering if the enclave comes back into play somehow here and really just who Hank has been talking to like I know the enclave kind of came into play early on with oh my god I already I already forgot his name Wiltson Wiltson, yes Wiltsik they already came into play really early on with Wiltsick having Cold Fusion

and being the ones to try to deliver it to the NCR I guess we found out in this episode But I don't know if he knew that in first season, with that's where he was going. But the fact that they were able to obtain that in the first place makes me think that the enclave really is a major player that we just haven't seen come into play yet. So, yeah, I thought the same thing. And the enclave, it's like a pre-war organization. It's essentially the deep state, I guess, that was part of the American government and then sort of takes over after, you know, claims control and is always subplotting and scheming and developing. things and has been linked, I think, not definitively, but linked to the development of the

death clause. So that would track, I think. And it just makes sense because they've already been introduced in the series, even though they have been unmentioned and unseen for quite a while now. And we know that they have cold fusion when the series starts, right? Somehow Wiltsig, Benjamin Linus, has cold fusion, which, you know, presumably is about to be in the possession of House, perhaps, but it has been transferred to the enclave at some point in the intervening centuries.

And, you know, maybe Hank is in league with the enclave. Maybe Barb is too. I don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes here. We assumed that when Hank shows up at Baltic HQ and he's on the global comms and he's talking to someone that maybe he's talking to House in the present, but maybe not. Maybe there are other masterminds at work here. and maybe it is the enclave and who knows, right? But that I think is kind of the logical solution or candidate to me.

But I'm with you, I think, that I'm not really consumed by this the way that House is for understandable reasons. But, you know, I guess it's kind of cool if the show does definitively answer a question that the games never have. But it's never really bothered me that the games never have. I think it makes sense, really, that it might not be a clear-cut answer, exactly. And there's a, in Fallout 2, the narrator says, the end of the world occurred pretty much as we'd predicted. The details are trivial and pointless. The reasons, as always, purely human ones, which suggests that, you know, as a fallout player, you're not necessarily supposed to find it, worksome, that it might just be kind of like a fog of

nuclear war thing, that maybe multiple parties were responsible because who even knows, right, like the bombs are dropping and people are probably retaliating. and if you're just someone in this post-apocalyptic world, you might not know who dropped the bombs or who was the first, or maybe it was almost simultaneous, or someone pressed the wrong button, and then someone else pressed a button, and suddenly you have warheads flying everywhere.

It wouldn't necessarily be just one clean answer. Yes, they did it. You know, there are theories out there. And in fact, Fallout creator Tim Kane has said that he thinks China did it, essentially in retaliation for FV for the virus, that the U.S. is basically violating bioweapons agreements, and so China had to drop the bombs. But Tim Cain, you know, hasn't really been the shepherd, the steward of the franchise for a long time. So what he thinks is not necessarily the current canon. Everyone just has an opinion, which I guess

it's possible that we might not know that the series might end without it being addressed definitively. And that would be fine with me. I actually kind of like it being just murky. Yeah, and I just, it is really interesting to go back to that quote where it's a series long interest. Like there is so much that they can still do over the course of this show. And I'm so, there's still so many, like even just the Supermutes at all, I don't know how much like the synths maybe could be coming at some point with the Institute and more of the fallout for kind of lore. There really is a lot that they can really pull across a lot of different seasons of the show. This could go on for a while. It could, and I hope it does. And we leave this group. We have a coop in the present and and or coop in the past and the ghoul in the present both drowning their sorrows. And we get that kind of jittery intercutting of coop in the elevator leaving the, the house, penthouse, penthouse and and a ghoul in the present. Also getting soused at the bar just trying to forget their troubles and self-medicate.

eventually. And he's clearly bothered and disturbed by all he has heard. But so is house, who puts on his Raniac helmet, which, as you noted, we have seen in Fallout New Vegas. So there's an actual connection here. But when he dons this, this helmet with all the gizmos and diodes in it, he's not beating the allegations that he looks and sounds like a lunatic. So I get it. But yeah, we have seen that before, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, they do such good job of just throwing in these little things that a lot of the gaming community is going to pick up on. You want to really think twice about if you're a show viewer only.

This is the interface that the aged house uses to connect to his mainframes, essentially. So that is what he is about to do here. And even at the end in the credits in the artwork, there's a glimpse of the sort of sarcophagus, house rides out the apocalypse and and lingers into the post-apocalyptic wasteland, which is, you know, I don't know if that's giving anything away, but in Florida, New Vegas, he does survive in a sense, although really like all bets are off, I guess, about house and which house is real and is that house who survives and is, you know, sort of a desiccated remnants. Is that the body double? Is that the real house, as we were led to believe? Is, you know, he just

roboticized. We still don't know for sure whether he is alive in the present timeline of the show, which takes place 15 years after Fallout New Vegas. But I guess everything is kind of in question about the lore of house even in the game. Another thing we don't know is how the platinum chip enters into the show, if at all. That's more or less the McGuffin of Fallout New Vegas. It's the data storage device that controls the strip and the securitrons. It's what you as the player character, the courier are tasked with delivering. And when it's stolen from you, that triggers the events of the game, House wants it to consolidate his power and help protect Vegas from the nuclear apocalypse.

Some of that could be kind of overturned the way that the show's lore about House has been now that the body double has been revealed. So there may be more to find out, but it would seem that he does achieve his goal of surviving in some shape or fashion into the post-apocalyptic period and perhaps in the present, which is maybe setting up another meeting between the ghoul and house centuries later, both of them looking a lot different and less dapper than they did in this first meeting or, well, second meeting. Don't want to forget about the bathroom meeting because that happened to.

So we'll see. I'm sure it's not the last scene that we've seen between these two in the past and perhaps not in the present either. And, you know, during this drunk montage of coupe, he gets on the missile. he's riding the missile like slim pickings. Yeah, riding the bomb in Dr. Strange Love. And he's picked up off his ass by Barbara. And we leave them with Coop saying, we need to talk to Barbara.

And that's never really the prelude to a pleasant conversation. But, you know, maybe they'll lay their cards on the table here. And if they do, that will be fascinating because maybe we'll find out why Barbara is doing all this. Will this humanize her, make her somewhat more sympathetic? or will it reveal her to be a true villain or monster? Will we learn why she is into promoting the apocalypse and F.E.V. and everything else. And will that be persuasive to Coupe?

And will that sell him on her vision or will he continue to oppose her? I don't know. But all of that is very much in play. Yeah. It's another really good cliffhanger to end the episode on. And I really like how they're setting up that conversation, hopefully happening next episode and not in two weeks. You never know with the season.

But setting that up at the same time is hopefully when we're going to be seeing Lucy and Hank talking as well. Yes. And one thing that House seems to be right about when he says, I don't think you're a cowboy at all. I think you're a killer. He seems to be right about that. Although that's really still something that the ghoul is reckoning with.

Is he a killer? And when he kills, is it for a just cause? So there are many more Easter eggs, lots of great attention to detail in this episode, especially in Freeside, just lots of artwork, all the posters on the wall, all the signs, you know, the musical artist Dean Domino and Joey Baxter and the magician Maxis and all these posters and the signs are really directly ripped from the game. Often we get a glimpse of Galaxy News. We get the portrait of house that I mentioned before with Liberty Prime, which is kind of a

take on a Howard Hughes photo. And ultimately, the House always wins. This episode was a winner. we all win because we got to watch The Wrangler. Although one thing that I would quibble with, Mr. House says he doesn't care for fiction. He is right that it's not real, but he's wrong that it doesn't matter. That's our belief at the Ringer and at the Ringerverse and on But Mesh. We care quite a bit about fiction and it's real to us and that makes it matter.

And an episode of TV like The Rangler really hammers that home because this matters. This was good. This was a great direction for the show and opens up. a lot of potential and possibilities. So thanks so much again for dissecting this one with me, Daniel. It was a pleasure. Oh, anytime. Thanks for having me back.

And thanks to Isaiah Blakely for producing this episode and to our June and Ramgapal for being the Mr. House of the Ringiverse and of House of R. Mr. House of R. Let's just go with that. You can send us your questions, your comments, your theories at Ringiversegaming at gmail.com. We'd love to incorporate some of your thoughts into future podcasts. But Mesh, we'll be back.

next week after the Midnight Boys, Pugh, Pugh, bring you their reaction to the premiere of a Night of the Seven Kingdoms. So look for us here at Button Mesh, first thing Thursday, same button time, same button channel.

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