The Ringer-Verse - Finding Superman, Defending 'Age of Ultron', and Mark Millar 'Jupiter's Legacy' Interview | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: May 8, 2021

The Midnight Boys are back and here to react to the latest news and stories from around the Ringer-Verse! They comment on WB's search for a Black Superman, who they would want to see in the roll, and the legacy of Chadwick Boseman (03:15). Then they head to Midnight Court to present their arguments on which is the better film, 'The Avengers' or 'Avengers: Age of Ultron' (29:20), all before talking with comics legend Mark Millar about his newest Netflix show based on his comic 'Jupiter's Legacy' (44:15). You can read more about Mark Millar in Charles's story for The Ringer. Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Guest: Mark Millar Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ringerverse. This is the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. We cover the MCU. You cover Star Wars, horror, whatever. We're going to get into some anime pretty soon if Charles has his way. I am Van Lathen, host of Higher Learning with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay, and I have

Charles Holmes with me, host of the Ringer Music show. As always, we are known as The Midnight Boys. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, Every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

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Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfair Radio.com. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the final. with Fandul Predict. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt.

Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. We're taking on a little MCU debate as well as a special look. at Jupiter's Legacy in a chat with legendary comics creator Mark Millar. You can join

Mallory Rubin on Tuesday if she's going to have all your mailback questions over there on the House of Mal on Tuesday. Make sure to check in with her. And we're going to have more ring reverse surprises coming up these next couple of weeks as we kind of build up to the Loki premiere which is, I'd say what, like Charles

just about like a month out, just like a month away. About a month, about a month. It's coming out on Wednesday so you know the midnight boys. They're out in the streets. They're saying, are we too washed to stay up on midnights on Wednesdays? No, we're not too, we're not too washed. I'm definitely too washed. We're not too washed.

My bedtime is 1030. We're not definitely, we're not too washed because we're going to try to get these screeners. That's what I see. That's like, ooh, and it's screener. Oh. Before we start, Van, they already kill us out here. They already kill us. They're like, where's the Midnight Boys pod?

Today, you just came back from vacay. What happened, my man? I thought you were lost at. see. No. What happened was we were supposed to do this podcast earlier at 10.30 and I came back from vacay. We got back in about 12 last night. I woke up and it was 11.30. Now, I don't, and I have, it was like 1130 on the dot. So I had to scramble over here, do a Rwashables with Bill and then do this podcast. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm not a midnight boy. Maybe, or maybe I was a midnight boy last night, which made me a noon boy getting up. I thought you were,

I thought you were on Melinda Gates private island. You know what I'm saying? Trying to get a little bit of that sweet, sweet billionaire cash. Could be. Could be. But I'll be honest with you. With Melinda Gates, it's not about the money. It's about her.

It's about the fact that she's a beautiful woman. She's supple. She is talented. She's amazing. A lot of people are talking about a billion dollars. That's not what it's about with me. I look past that. I look into people's soul.

I know you're all your bullshit now because you got the backwards cap on. You know what I'm saying? The reality is as far as people are concerned, there haven't been many more beautiful or special people in this world. If you don't shut up there. As Melinda Gates or McKinsey Bezos. So anyway. Damn.

I'll tell you, Dr. Umar are going to come in here like, what are you talking about? Dr. Um, about to get so pissed off. Um, okay. So look, uh, even though we don't have a show to recap,

there has been a lot of nerd news happening. Yes. These last couple of days. Namely, it was reported earlier this week that D.C. is in search for something that so many of my sisters out here are in search for. They're in search for a black Superman. All right, we got a time out.

Like, Van, what time are you on right now? My sisters. So the sisters don't want a black Superman? They do. They want somebody that can, you know, think about that. That's actually a good documentary. Actually, they did one call like in search for Superman. But that's like, good though, search for a black Superman.

DC now feels just like my, my mama and my sisters in them. They're looking for a strong black Superman right there. Now, DC is looking to, I guess, in their new upcoming Superman film, which is going to be written by Tana Heese Coates. They are looking to cast a black guy to play Superman in this movie. This is going to be Superman as a black guy. We are going to see a different version of Superman on the screen that we've seen

screen than we've ever seen before. And they're also saying in the Hollywood reporter they were saying potentially a period piece his name is going to be Calell so I actually don't know how they're pulling this off.

It doesn't seem like a new character. It just seems like, hey, Calell is black now. I gotta want to ask you. We just had this whole conversation about how hard it was for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier to pull it off and they had like six or seven hours of content.

Do you think it is possible for them to pull off a black Superman movie that's entertaining in two hours. I think so. I think when you say period piece, we're talking about this is going to be said in the 50s or the 60s? I don't know.

They said it was a period piece. I'm not sure if they said when, which actually that's a good question. When should it be said? It should be said in the modern day. Look, the D.C. is so good at over-complicating things. I've never seen, and I hope they're listening. I've never seen a bunch of people.

that are so good at overcomplicating things. It's not that complicated. Speak on it. It's just not that complicated. Look, if they feel like it's going to bring something to the dynamic of the character of Superman to make him black, that's fine. I have no problem with that. I personally don't, I don't think it does much, it doesn't do much for me that they're making Superman black. Like, I don't feel any sense of pride or none at all.

I like not, it doesn't, it's not a thing for me. I think that there are black characters that exist in DC and in Marvel that I would rather see get their shine. All right. This is where we're going to argue. List them for me. I hate this argument. List them for me.

Like what black characters do you think should get their shine? That would be way better than black Superman. I think Blue Marvel has a fantastic character. I think Blue Marvel is amazing. Blue Marvel in the MCU. And I personally think John Stewart as the Greenlander. We agree on John Stewart. My problem with a lot of things is like everybody's like, all right, let's, why can't

Icon from Milestone get his shot in a movie? And I'm like, all right, do you all know the history of how, how royally DC has mistreated the McDuffy family? A. B, like, I think it's also setting us up for failure because if we just put any black comic book character up on the screen. and that shit don't make money, that's their perfect excuse me,

like, see, y'all didn't come support it, we tried to do it, y'all didn't support it, and I don't want to be in that position either. But I think the only problem with your argument is that there's proof of concept on this. On Blue Marvel? No, not on Blue Marvel. There's proof of concept on taking

a relatively obscure black comic book character and making it into a billion-dollar movie. I think Black Panther, it was done very, very strategically. Well, then you're not talking about the character now. You're talking about the filmmakers, right? I'm talking about the character and like Black Panther has like a very, very like rich if complicated history. If not, he's on the tier of characters, I would argue that Iron Man was on before Iron Man

was made. Not even close. Stop. No. Made by Jack Kirby. No. Has had some of the most amazing artwork. Maybe his comic book run, maybe his comic book runs weren't popular. No, there had been good comic books made about him. He was a comic book characters, comic book fan. He was a comic book character's comic book. If I went to any, if I went to any soccer mom, before Robert Downey Jr. was Iron Man, be like, yo, tell me the origin story of Iron Man. They'd be like, who?

People knew Iron Man. They might have not loved him, but they knew him. Even like with like ghost face and all of that stuff, calling himself Tony Starks, calling himself Iron Man, like all of that. Like, all of that. Like they knew Iron Man was a character that people knew. All right, maybe it was one rung under, but Blue Marvel is like,

is the first step on the ladder in terms of popular. I agree with you, but what I'm telling you is that in Black Panther, the execution of the character's rollout was more important than who the character actually was. People didn't have a very good idea of who Black Panther was. They hadn't read, and there had been a lot of great Black Panther books, right?

Huddlin had done a run. There's a lot of great Black Panther books, right? He had been a big part of the recent comic stories, being a part of the Illuminati and all of that stuff. They had expanded his role in these last years. But what I'm saying is that they were able to make people buy into the culture of Wakanda and into the character of Black Panther because of the way the character was handled in the MCU

and not because of who the character was. So what I'm saying is when done right, you can get black audiences to buy into, not just black audiences, but audiences, period, to buy into a character that they're less familiar with the source material. Marble hadn't just done that with,

with Black Panther. They've done it with Dr. Strange. They've done it with Ant Man. They've done it time and time again. I don't think it has anything to do with the characters themselves. I think what we're talking about has much more to do with the film makers.

I think it's a mixture of good characters, good storylines, and being like, instead of like wanting all of it at once, sometimes I'm like, yo, like, let's just like, perfect example, like Spider-Man enter the Spider-Verse. They did such a good job with Miles Morales. Same thing with Black Panther. Like, I'm like, yo, let's campaign for like John Stewart because, yes, John Stewart deserves

a movie. Static deserves a fucking movie. Now, if you ask me, like Charles, would you go watch an icon movie from the milestone I'd be like, I actually don't know. I have no emotional attachment to this character. I have an emotional attachment and many people do to a static shock to a John Stewart. You're right. But the thing with static is that, you know, static was on TV, man.

Yeah, he's an English character. Right. And that worked. When static came out, we didn't know static shock. They threw it on TV. That worked because the story was well done. My thing is maybe you don't introduce Icon. Maybe you don't introduce John Stewart.

Maybe I'll introduce them with a movie in it of themselves. Do you see the way Marvel did this? Marvel set up the stakes for Black Panther by showing us just a man losing his father. I'm arguing there's a way to go about it where it's just like with static shock, I'm just like, yo, I would care about a character like Icon or other milestone characters if you get static rate

because then if you introduce icon in a stack move, I'm like, all right, cool, I'm there. In the same way it's like when they bring in storm, I would not be surprised if they introduce her through like a Black Panther vehicle through Wakanda. And it's like, all right, cool. It's not such a risk because I just never want to be in a position where like one of these movies fail.

And then like they blame it all black people for failing. If the movie fails, it's less about the character and more about the execution and the MCU has proved that. The MCU has proved that you can execute characters that the audience is even in your argument right there. Iron Man was not something that people were super duper familiar. with yet the movie, $600 million when it came out.

So my thing is, if D.C. thinks that the way to get us to care about black people in the D.C. universe is to make Superman a black man. I would say to D.C. that we didn't give a fuck about Superman when he was white. Like, I mean, they didn't.

And the reality is that if you make a Superman movie and you change the Superman movie and make Superman a black character and you don't get the fundamental elements of this character right. You don't capture what it is that we

love about Superman. It doesn't matter what you turn him into. They can't get Superman right. Get Superman right first. They can't get Superman right when he's white. They've gone through two white guys since Christopher Reeves and both of them have failed. So before he put a black man in there

and we know like, I'm just like guys, you just have to make a good movie. You have to just make a good Superman movie first. over. So we're going to make Superman and now we're going to make it period, right? So we're going to detach modern audiences away. We're going to beat people over the head with something. I'm all for. I'm all for it. It's fine. It's great. Coates is a genius. But, man, it's almost like saying I can't run a mile. I don't have the car to run a mile. So I'm going to try to run a marathon. It's just, it's like a, it's a weird thing to do.

But, wait, can I pitch you? Can I pitch you on my list, my top three list of who I think could actually pull off a black Superman if they were. Honorable mention. I got killed for this. Tyrese. If we know Superman isn't going to be good. If we know like a black Superman movie, the chances of it being good because they can't get a, they can't get even white Superman, right? At least make it entertaining.

And Tyrese is one of the most entertaining actors that we have. That's my, that's my guy. So the homie of mine, so if Reese was going to get that look, I would be happy. Go ahead, Charles. Oh, come on. See you guys. Number three, number three, Michael Ward from Top Boy. I like him.

I think he could do an amazing job. And I think what we've learned through the years with a good Superman is it can't be too recognizable of a face. He has to be a little bit, a little bit green, but still has the acting chops. And I think Michael Ward did an amazing job in Top Boy. Number two, he got the jaw line for it. He got the body for it. My man, Tramante Rhodes from Moonlight.

Okay. Can you imagine that? He's good. Swole? Very swole. Very swole. Got the face for it. Come on.

The women would love it. Yeah, it would, for sure. Last but not least. This is going to be controversial. But my number one pick, I think you say his name, Damson, Idris, from Snowfall. He's too small. No, man.

Put him in the gym, bro. Put him in the gym, bro. Jim. He's not tall enough. No, man. He's not tall enough. He's not tall enough. Dancing my man. Dancing my man. Like, he, like... They could put some lifts in the boots. You know what I'm saying? He's too small, though. He's... You're telling me you don't think... Like, if he put on some weight, he couldn't be

Superman. He's not tall enough. That's not... That's not for him. Him turning to Lex and saying, I built this shit. Brick by brick. Come on. Brick by brick. Oh, you know what's crazy, though? You know what's crazy, though? They got damson listed here at 6'1. They got damson listed here. They got damson listed as 6-1 here. I didn't know him to be that, so I've been around him a lot. So, so, so I don't, I don't see him as being Superman, but maybe. If it's a period piece, come on. He got that kind of like, he got that like 1950s face a little bit. Right, right. They got damson as being 6-1. I've been around them. I've stood next to him a lot. I'm 6-4. I didn't ever see him as,

as being that. But look, I think Superman obviously has to be somebody who has a physical presence. I think perfect for Superman would have been, but he's already in the DC EU. He was in Aquaman. He played Black Manton. Oh, shit. Yeah, he'd be great. He'd be great.

We haven't talked about the most usual of usual suspects in this situation, which is Michael B. Jordan, who it looks like it's been reported that Michael B. Jordan is not going to be Superman. Do you think that this is real? or El Smokier Screenier? I don't think Michael B. Jordan's going to do it. And we were in argument with my producers. Michael B. Jordan is one of our finest actors currently,

if we look at his filmography. Okay? It's unmatched. It's film marketing features. Unmatched. Why are Friday Night Lights, Fruitvale Station, Creed, Black Panther? Come on.

He's my man. I don't think he should be... Jomi? Jomey, jump in. Jomey, jump in. Don't jump in. Don't jump in. Jomi? You're incorrect.

Jomey wanted to say something. That's, you're wrong on that, Charles. Like, he's, he's a, he's a great actor in his box, right? Creed, he's great. The Wire, he's great. Foodvale Station, he's great. Once he gets outside of that, and he starts doing without remorse, Genlock, he ain't got it.

He doesn't got what he takes. And it's okay. I don't want to hear shit. Charles, it's okay. I don't want to hear shit. I don't want to hear it. All Superman needs to do is teach us how to fly. And I don't know if you saw Friday night lights,

but Michael B. Jordan made me think I could bring home the championship. Yeah, if you want a boring Superman, that's fine. It's well within Michael B. Jordan's wheelhouse to be Superman. Superman has to have strength and charm. As long as they don't make Clark Kent, I've said this before, I said this on higher learning, the trick with making Superman Black is going to be not Superman himself, but Clark Kent.

Hollywood audiences don't like to see vulnerability on the screen from black actors. They like to see black men be these big tanks of virility, and they don't allow that as much. So especially in roles, let me say this, in roles where vulnerability is the key, then sure. But in roles where you have like an action star and that type of deal, it's difficult a lot of times,

like to see a bumbling, not cool black guy. Black guys are sort of fetishized in the culture as being super cool guys. So Superman would be harder, easier to sell to them than Clark Kent would be. But, you know, they moved away from the Clark Kent as the bumbling nerd as of recent. Clark Kent is just a guy with some glasses at this point. They're like the classic Clark Kent where he's unsure of himself.

Christopher Reeves bumbling Clark King. Yeah. They moved away from that. You know what? For one of the episodes, the audience could tell us if they want this, we should do a whole episode on how to fix DC. Because I think both of us where we can agree is like they don't have it. right now. They're all over the place. We get a good movie and then we get a bad movie.

Then we get an okay movie. Then we get a great movie. It's wild over there. Do you want to dive into it now? Do you want to save it for this episode then? Producer Steve, what do you think? Steve, what should we do? I say we save it. Audience, we save it. Audience, we're saving it. Save it. How do you fix DC extended universe? We're going to get into that. We're going to play armchair CEO. I can fix DC if they made me the CEO. I'm not bullshit you. I got one word for you that would fix DC. Lobo. No, Teen Titans. No.

Team Titans. They did that. They're doing that. They got a show, right? No, that's a bullshit TV show. Teen Titans is their most valuable franchise, okay? Lobo, who wants a Lobo series, okay? Lobo would be fucking crazy.

No, we need a good Teen Titans. We need an Avengers-level Teen Titans movie. No, you do a Lobo, you do Lobo big, white-skinned killer. You need Teen Titans. Anti-hero. You need Teen Titans. Titans, okay. We need a dazed and confused, like, come. All right, we're for the pot. We're saving it for the pod. We'll save it for the pot. We'll save it for the pot.

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

Before we go to court, which I'm going to wipe the floor with you in, can we talk about the Eternals footage real quick that dropped? We'd switch to pages to the MCU real quick. So there was some Eternals footage that dropped this past week. There was a reveal, there was an MCU sizzle

that came out, had all the movies wrapped up into one. I didn't know that there's something different. different than Marvel did. I didn't, I've never seen them do like a one, like a big, huge trailer for all of the movies. It was to get people back into the theaters, I think. Give people back into the theaters. Okay. So in this trailer, it was released, the title of Black Panther 2, Wakanda Forever. And we're going to get four movies in five months this year and a lot of big films next year. What did you think about the Eternal Splage that you saw? 14 seconds. They're winning me over, man. I really, I really thought like, I don't know how they're going to pull off the Eternals. The Eternals as a book does not sell as a concept.

A lot of times it doesn't work. But you know, Chloe Zhao, she's off that Oscar win. She got the juice. I'm in. I'm in. I think that the Eternals, and I tell much of what I wasn't going to do this anymore. The Eternals are more going to serve to set up the mutants than anything,

than more than that. Get the fuck out of here. Why? You broke our rule, man. We're not bringing up mutants until we get it, man. You broke the rule. Come on, man. That's the point of having the Eternals.

The Eternals are going to give us the X-Gene. They're going to explain the origins of humankind in Marvel. They're going to explain the deviance. They're going to explain the X-Gene. We're not doing this with Loki. I make a pledge, a solemn pledge right now, throughout the entire one of Loki, to not bring up the mutants.

I will not bring up the mutants during Loki. although I will I don't give a fuck if Loki goes there was a man I once knew he could read minds I don't care I will fuck who it is

I won't bring it up I'm holding you to this I won't bring it up doing this but I will say that I think it's a fair it's safe to say so for people who don't know the Eternals will break down

sort of humanity's role in the cosmos as seen by the Eternals this ancient group of people who have been watching over humanity and sometimes bestowing humanity with different technologies and different sort of ways to get around

some of the problems that we face for a long, long time that are seemingly awakened by something. They've been, for whatever reason, I think that their memories are going to have to be wiped, and this is going to be a time where they awake. And in the story of the Eternals, you're going to

get the story of why humans are special in the Marvel universe and how they came to be. And to me, in that story, you're going to get all the different variations of humans. And that's how you're going to get the mutants. Yes. Traditionally, like, their internals have a connection to, like, the inhumans.

They bestow all of, like, the mutated genes or whatever. I don't think you're wrong. I don't. But you know what? In this, actually, maybe this is. We should have a DC episode. Maybe we should just have a mutants episode. Maybe we should just say, fuck it.

Maybe we should just say fuck it. Maybe we should. Who knows? Are we ready for court yet, though? No, because God damn it, you're just, you're just. On to it, I want to say something before we get to court. I want to say something before we get to court. And there's something that I said on higher learning, and I mean it.

And I don't mean to trigger anyone or upset anyone when I say this. I saw the title for Black Panther 2. Black Panther or Wakanda Forever is the name of the movie. And I'm very excited about the movie. Very excited to see the expanded role for sure in this. I'm very excited to see this. I've never felt stronger, though, that at some point we have to recast Chala. and I know that that's difficult for a lot of people.

I know that that's difficult for a lot of people. I know that it is. It hurts. It's painful that our brother passed away. But the only way to double that pain to me is to take that character along with him. And the reason why I say that is because he, Chad with Bozeman, really cared about Tachala coming to the screen. and the story of Black Panther and the story of Wakanda is so connected to how to how Tachala sees the world and the conflicts that go on between him being king and coming to terms with that even when he's not the king anymore even when he's not Black Panther and Shuri is Black Panther the character in which we discover so much of this the conscience of the Avengers right a lot of times the regal the guy who makes the is Tachala and we've only seen that for what four movies. There's so much more that Tachala has to do. And it's

unthinkable right now at this soon to discuss somebody else portraying the character. But if we want to tell our stories for as long as, when I say our stories, I mean the stories of black characters in this, in comics, for as long as some of these other characters have been told, right? If we're talking about Superman or if we're talking about Spider-Man, or if we're talking about the Hulk or if we're talking about any of these other guys, right, that have had multiple different people play them,

we're going to have Batman. We're going to have to get to that point with Black Panther, too. There's going to have to be a new generation of kids who understand not just the character of Black Panther, but the character of Tchala as Black Panther. And at some point, we're going to have to be able to, I know everybody's upset,

we're going to have a real conversation about recasting that character. I think it's going to be necessary. And it didn't really hit me until I saw Black Panther Wakanda forever. There's just too much story that's connected to Chala. And we're going to need them back at some point. All right. So I fundamentally disagree with you for two reasons. The first is I would agree if we did not have an amazing actress standing right there with Letitia Wright.

If we did not have comic books that have set it up that Chachala's sister can be Black Panther. And I think the wound is too recent, A, and Letitia Wright is too gifted of an actress to not give her the chance to play Black Panther and to honor the legacy of like the character Tichala, but also Chadwick by by continuing on. And I think there was a certain vision and a certain movie that they cannot make anymore. But to recast it is, in my opinion, the second opinion is like, I think almost disrespectful. to Chattwick. And I think the level of like the failure that you can have with that to me isn't worth it, especially when you have an option that still has that connective tissue to it. Because I don't think there is an actor alive right now in this time that can do what Chattwick did just because of the emotional attachment we have to him. Right. I'd agree that you can't recast it now. That's,

that's something you do a decade from now. Oh, no. It's going to have to be sooner than that, bro. No, it can't. The wound is too recent. My man, we can't, but that's, to me, I care way more about the legacy of Chadwick Bowman than I do of Tachala. But Chadwick Bowman's legacy lives in a lot of roles. So why can't Letitia Wright carry on as Black Panther? She can, and she will.

And it'll be amazing. But the reality is that. there's so much about Wakanda and so much even about the future of the Avengers and the MCU that you need Tachala, that you need Tachara. I just think that there is not an actor alive who can do it, not because they're not talented enough, but because there are far too many emotions that we have to Chadwick. Like, Chadwick as Tchalla is like an icon. That's like Christopher Reeves as Superman. there's a reason that they had to wait so long for someone else to become Superman and for people to believe it.

And I just think it's too recent. Well, also he, but the only difference is that is he played Superman for a decade. Like, he played Superman for a decade. You're telling me in Wakanda Forever, if they recasted Tchala. No, Wakanda Forever, you can't recast Chala. I'm not saying that, you can't do it then.

But what I'm saying is that for, there are a lot of things, in the Christopher Reeve scenario than in the Black Panther scenario. But I'll tell you this, though. I'll say you have Black Panther Wakanda forever, right? I'd say the next film that we're

talking about Wakanda, we have to, Tachala has to come back. Chishala has to come back, okay? Give it to Lettisha Wright. Give her, like, this is my thing. Like, the way you honor Chadwick's legacy is that Chadwick made us believe

that a black man can be the most successful superhero in the world. And if you give Letitia right that chance, I think that she can prove that a black woman can be the most successful superhero in the world. And I think she should be given that chance.

That she can. It's not about that. I just don't understand the way to honor Chabot's legacy in portraying Tichala is to not have anyone, to have Tichala wiped off the face of the world to you. Don't have a wiped off. Just give it more time.

Let it rest. Well, more time. I just think 10 years is a long time. Agree to disagree. Agre to disagree. All right. That wasn't even court, by the way. That wasn't even court.

But Charles, I'm taking you to court right now to Midnight Boys' Midnight Court. This week on Midnight Court. Van Laughan is accusing his co-host, Charles Holmes, of snorting cocaine while claiming that Age of Ultron was a better movie than the original Avengers. Charles Holmes claims he, quote, set it with his chest. The judge Steve Oman will now hear opening statements. Thank you, bailiff Jomey. Now these are very serious charges.

Mr. Van Lathen, with the prosecution, you shall have opening arguments first. My opening statement is this. The Avengers movie, the OG Avengers, 2012, directed by that great guy known as Josh Wheaton, set not only the standard for the MCUs Avengers going forward, but it's set the standard

for the superhero team-up movie in a flawless and seamless way. Okay? Flawless and seamless. The movie was perfect from the standpoint of developing the character's relationships to one another. Objection.

Objection, Your Honor. And the way the avenge is... You can't object. You can't object. during the opening statement, the way the characters see each other and the way they interact in the MCU. And I feel like those are all the problems the age of Ultron has. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I know my client and his ideas seem strange. Some might even say absurd. Some of you know him by Charles, other Coke baby Chuck, or even

beige wolf. But I know him as a kind and thoughtful soul that was guess. by Mr. Lathen. So I implore you to keep light of one simple fact. My client did not say he thinks 2015's Avengers Age of Ultron was a good movie, nor did he try to claim that it was among the Marvel Cinematic Universe's best offerings. It is. Instead, in his humble estimation,

he declared that it's a better movie than the bland, if competent, 2012 Avengers. And today, I will regale you with undeniable proof that his words were not blasphemous, but instead our wisdom called from years of being a nerdy loser. That is all, Your Honor. First of all, Your Honor, I was just like to say that in opening statements, the defense has clearly offended and insulted the prosecution.

And I'm like a ruling on that from the chair about whether or not you can call someone a nerdy loser in your court of law, I was calling myself and my client a nerdy loser. The bailiff Jomey will have that stricken from the record. Thank you. Okay, Exhibit A, Avengers, the 2012 edition. I'm going to give you a scene from this sublime piece of work. The first scene of my evidence is, Thor meets Captain America meets goddamn Iron Man.

The Battle in the Woods. Fantastic scene. Sets up everything. Steve Rogers is on the plane. Black Widow is flying. Thor comes in, steals Loki. Black Widow looks at Steve Rogers, says, these guys, you might want to sit this one out.

These guys are pretty much of legend. They're basically gods. Steve says there's only one God. I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that. He then jumps out of the plane with the parachute, which he's not going to need in any other means. movie, but he had used the parachute in this particular time. Tell you what this is about.

Number one, we're defining these characters. Iron Man flies after Thor. Steve says we need an attack. Iron Man says, I have a planned attack. That scene right there actually sets the groundwork for Civil War. These guys have two diverging ways of viewing the world. Steve is a battle tactician. Iron Man is a fly by the seat of his pants type of guy.

These dudes are different. There's going to be a power struggle in the Avengers for the future of the team. It's set right there. Steve is brave enough as Captain America, which is some stakes we haven't seen him. To this point, we've seen Steve fighting against the Red Skoll and other earthbound people. He's brave enough to jump into a fight with gods, right? With gods, okay?

And hold his own. That scene is directly linked to endgame when the entire world is going to be fired. superpower beatings, beings, right? And it's just going to be Steve Rogers face off against all of these guys, and what does he do, strapping his shield. The character development setting up for the rest of the MCU

that has done, even in this, Thor's relationship with his brother Loki. He knows Loki is wrong. But he's torn between two worlds, one world being Asgard and one world being the humans that he loves. And he's going to have to make a choice that's going to set him on a path,

the path that we're going to get in Ragnarok. the path that we're going to get. All of this comes through in one scene. In one scene, you get this. And that's just one example. I can go to other scenes as well. One example. And even in the fighting,

they fight all to a stalemate because they all realize they have a common goal. Age of Ultron simply doesn't have any of this. It's a movie with a very, very ridiculous, nonsensical villain. And really, to be honest with you, in a movie of the Avengers

bickering over things that they should be able to figure out pretty easily. Mr. Holmes, you have the floor. Beautiful ladies and gents of the jury. Avengers Age Voltron is so beautiful because of the emotional moments. Moments that arguably are way more important to the future of the MCU.

Exhibit A, when they're all at the party and Mionir is sitting there and all of them try to lift it. It says everything about these characters. It shows us why Cap is almost worthy, or not yet. And we see why in movies like Civil War. We see James Roady and Iron Man being just mad

and don't understand why they can't lift it. We see emotional scenes of Hawkeye meeting his wife when the Avengers are dispatched easily. And we're all through these movies, we're like, why is Hawkeye there? He only has arrows. And we learn why he's there. Because he is the human among gods keeping them together. It is one of the most touching moments of the entire movie.

We see vision lifting the hammer. We see Cap in the opening fight sequence going language. Okay? We see what type of person he is. There is so much humor and heart in age of of Ultron that sets up everything that we will come to know, even the title of the last Avengers movie, Endgame. I would argue that without Age of Ultron,

you don't get Infinity War. You don't get Endgame, because we have to see Tony fail so miserable to see a vision of what happens if he does not put a suit of armor around the world. And without that, you get nothing else. and I can't say that about 2012's Avengers. It's nice.

The Power Ranger costumes, the fighting, a bunch of aliens that who cares about that look like CGI pickles? But you're telling me that in Age of Ultron you don't feel that heart? I find that hard to believe.

Your Honor, if I'm allowed to redirect. You're allowed three minutes on the floor right now. Three minutes on the floor to redirect. Ladies and gentlemen of the court, who gives a fuck about the Avengers trying to lift me in there. Like who gives a shit? No one gives a shit.

One guy can lift the fucking hammer. They never really explained why Vision actually is worthy to live me and near the moment after he is born. There's so much stuff crammed into Age of Ultron that the movie doesn't seem like it really knows what it wants to be. Lazy to the jury, I'll ask again, who gives a fuck about Hawkeye? There's nothing that happened in,

age of Ultron that made you give any more of a fuck about Hawkeye. The reality is that, yeah, was it sad when Hawkeye's kids and his wife got snapped away? Yeah, but it would have been sad, even if Oge of Ultron would have never happened. Anybody's fucking wife and kids getting snapped away is sad. Is it cool in age of Ultron when he helps Scarlet Witch come out and become an Avenger? Sure, it's cool. We're not even going to talk about any other things. We're not going to talk about the crass execution.

of Quicksilver shot in the face. Okay? We're not going to talk about any of that stuff. We're not going to talk about any of this stuff. We're not going to talk about the crazy way in which Ultron is a lackluster villain who we're not even sure what his motivations are. None of that. But I will tell you this.

If age of Ultron is necessary for endgame, the OG Avengers is fucking doubly. necessary for end game because there would have been no Avengers and wouldn't have happened and the first time we even see Thanos is in the credits the end credit scene of this movie introducing the character

to the entire world it's the formation of the team it is funny it gives you more one-liners billionaire genius playboy philanthropist bam all right the whole nine it gives you point break it gives you all of those things

It is the perfect melding of heart and hero. The prosecution fucking rests. All I can say to that is what a bunch of hooey. The villains of Avengers. It's definitely not Loki. He's an antagonist. If it's the Chitari, the Chitari are terrible. They look like Saturday morning cartoon fodder.

But Ultron, I can. get Ultron. I understand Ultron. Okay? Is he a little clunky? Yes. But his hatred for Tony Stark, his hatred for humanity, for the people that created him, created this Frankenstein. How can you not relate? I surely can relate. People have called me a monster. People haven't understood me. And when I look at Avengers Age of Ultron, I see a movie that is more assured of itself. Can anybody who saw Capsuit in the original Avengers tell me that I'm supposed to believe

that this man comes from the greatest generation? No, no, no, no, no. No, sir, okay? There is so much about the original Avengers, a movie that I think is fine that just looks like utter garbage, and they fix that in the age of Ultron. You see it in the battles. Now, when we talk

about the greatest battles in the MCU, you guys are telling me the jury that you didn't enjoy Iron Man's Hulkbuster versus Hulk? The intro storming of Von Shrucker's base in the beginning, when they all freeze frame and we realize how great these heroes are together? When they all, Vision, Quicksilver, Wanda, the original Avengers are flying trying to defeat Ultron at the end? You are telling me that this is as good as Hawkeye shooting some arrows at some aliens? I think that we are all looking at the original Avengers

with some rose-colored glasses. And may I present to you that maybe we need to update our prescriptions at Lenscrafter? And trust me, the Spotify insurance is good, and I'll put all of you on my plan. I rest my case. Jesus Christ. Thank you, both gentlemen, for your cases,

your arguments. I'll instruct our jury. Please go to at Ringiverse on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. This Monday, there will be a poll to determine who has, one midnight court. Court shall be adjourned until next week, Friday. That was midnight court.

Look, I'm not going to try to enforce a jury. I'm not going to try to enforce the jury, big. No, I'm not. I'm not going to try to enforce a jury. Jury is out there. I thought the case was beautifully argued by Charles Holmes. I think the answer is clear. Anyway.

All right. And even if you guys hated my arguments by age Voltra, and I knew you're going to hate my arguments, guys, stick around for my interview with, Mark Millar. I talked to him about his new superhero show, Jupiter's Legacy on Netflix. Van, have you started watching it yet? Did you get some screeners? I have not started watching it yet. I'm looking very forward to watching it and I'm looking very forward to discussing it next week on The Midnight Boys with you, Charles Holmes. Yeah, we're going to save our review for that.

It's a story about flawed Superman and the kids that they create. So we're going to save all of that, but we're going to talk to Mark about it coming to Netflix. We're going to talk about a little bit of falcon and the Winter Soldier and what he thinks about some of the controversies around that and building a whole universe at Netflix. Court has been adjourned. The beige Wolf has made his plea. Which one of the Midnight Boys will win? Even the jury should know it's me. That's all I got for y'all. Jesus Christ. Bye, Charles. Get the hell out of here. You guys up next on the Ring ofverse. Be sure to join Mal on her deep dive show next Tuesday. She's going to be talking about the bad batch. and then, you know, checking with us on Ringiverse

on all of our socials, IG, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all of those. We're going to leave you right now with Charles' interview with Mark Millar. Midnight Boys out. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech.

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Enjoying activity twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. I am so happy to be interviewing Mark Millar. Like, when I was a kid, probably too young, I was raised on your comics. You were one of the comic book guys I was going to the shop every week, and I was getting all of your books. So it's an honor to interview you. How are you doing today? Doing good. As funny as I get older and I've been in the business a long time.

I do meet guys with beards who say to me, I've been reading yourself since I was a kid. It always surprises me. Please tell me you're 15, but you've just got a giant 15-year-old beard, you know. It was just a goatee back then. You know, I couldn't. It wasn't filled in yet.

But one of the books that I read back then was Jupiter's legacy. And I kind of wanted to know from you, do you remember, like, when that idea first hit? Like, were you at a computer at a convention? when did you have this big grand epic idea? I can tell you exactly. I was at DC for years. I was at Marvel for years.

And I was thinking I need to do something to top DC or Marvel, you know, or any of the work I did it there, which was all big boots and everything. I need to do something bigger if I'm going to come back and do more superheroes. And I just created Kick-Ass. This would be around about 2008.

Kick-Ickx came out. And the financial crash happened. And Kick-Ass, you know, that was really big. You know, the boot sold crazy numbers. The movie made within like two years of the book coming out and everything. It was nuts. I thought, if I'm going to go back and do more superheroes, I have to make it huge. And the financial crash was a big inspiration for me. I was actually thinking superheroes were kind of created in the last depression after the 1989 Wall Street crash

and everything. And I was just thinking about that cyclical nature of history. I thought, that's really interesting. And I started putting notes together. But it was actually 2012 before I sat down and thought, right, I'm going to do this. But I had post-it notes all over my office and all that. I've been thinking about it for years. I think it was actually, yeah, end of 2011, beginning of 2012, I sat down and I wrote at the top of a page, this has to be the greatest superhero epic of all time. And I was the bar of myself, you know. And I just, I thought this has got to be greater. What's the point? And I was digging into some of the interviews you were doing around the time of 2013 and you said, quote, I'm not doing a thing

that's talking about comics. So even back then, were you feeling maybe tired or worn out? by kind of like the tendencies of a generation to deconstruct superheroes and comic books. That's what we were getting a lot of. Yeah, I wanted to do something that was quite uncynical, you know, because, you know, you had a lot of that. And I liked the idea of something that was just pure. It was like a pure superhero story.

So I went back to not just the Golden Age, which was the most pure kind of almost childlike kind of version of superheroes. I went back 10 more years. You know, so this is 1929, pre-superman by almost a decade. And I actually thought, well, here's the first ever superiors. superheroes, here we go. We'll start from scratch. And it doesn't refer to any other comic books, which is great because if you're a comic book fan, you're going to love it. But if you're somebody who's not familiar with this stuff as well, it's a great entry point. Because

one of the things some people find hard is comics is a bit like a club sometimes. And it's if you're new, where do I pick up the first book. So I like the idea of something that, you know, my 75-year-old aunt can read. You know, you can just, well, I hope she doesn't actually. But, you know, you can just pick this up and you're, you'll enjoy it. what was the most challenging part of developing the show? Because when I was going back to read Book 1, part of the book is set in 2022. So it was wild.

I'm like, damn, we've almost got up to it. So what was the most difficult part over the years about adapting Jupiter's legacy? Well, it's funny. I thought, will it still be relevant in a few years' time? Because I remember back in 2013 when I first came out thinking, well, by the time this comes out as a movie or a TV show, the world's going to be in a much better place.

America is going to be completely at ease with itself. But, you know, the weird thing was it just got crazier and crazier every year. So strangely, it's actually more relevant than ever. So that side of it wasn't hard because maybe the world is just always kind of crazy. Maybe this is just the way it kind of is. But the fact that they even make references to the 1919 global pandemic and everything, you know, the cyclical nature of history and this show is so palpable. It's crazy.

But I think the challenge is always to make it better than everything that came out last year. You know what I mean, I think what I love about superhero cinema is that every year it gets kind of more interesting. You know, like 20 years ago, when this period that we love, this superhero period of two decades, when this started, it seemed really ambitious to do a movie where Spider-Man is fighting the Green Goblin. I mean, people were like, our audience ready for organic web shooters, you know? And things like X-Men and everything seems unthinkable. You're like a team. A team of superheroes, that's too much.

We have to dress them in costumes like The Matrix because nobody can handle superhero costumes and everything. Yeah. So it's really fantastic. What's happened is the evolution of this stuff in pop culture. But that's come with its own challenges because if you do something that's not awesome, it's going to be judged really harshly.

And I love the fact the standard is so high. I mean, who would have guessed, you know, 25 years ago, when those sucky superhero movies made out every couple of years, you know the terrible Batman movies and everything, who would have guessed the best directors, the best writers, the best actors in the world want to do this stuff? So we're lucky

we're at a point in culture where the world is ready for Jupiter's legacy and we're kicking off blockbuster season with this thing, which would have been unthinkable even five years ago. Yeah, I wanted to actually talk about kind of like the landscape right now. Recently, we've been inundated with new versions of a very old idea.

this question of what if Superman wasn't completely good? It's something that you touched on in like 2003 with Red Sun, and now you see it in The Boys and Invincible. So why do you think we're so drawn to this idea of an evil Superman or a Superman that's not perfect? But I think it's just a natural evolution of exploring themes in pop culture. So what you have is you have the idea, and then you have a subversion of the idea.

And the idea is really interesting, and you get a lot of decades out of that, and then the subversion of it, you get, something cool for a while too. We haven't done the evil take. You know, what we've done is we've sort of looked at it from an angle. It's never been looked at before. The evil version, you know, the one that I love from the boys in Invincible and everything,

it's very different because it's like, what if this guy was a bad guy where we're kind of taking that archetype, which everybody knows and playing with it in different ways. Our thing is, what if that guy was a dad? And he was married, he had a couple of kids. And one of his daughters was on drugs. His daughter was on drugs all the time. His son is a disaster who's never going to be.

as good as he is, and he knows he's getting old, and these people are going to be taking over the family business. And that's kind of scary if you can move mountains and you think, my kids are kind of idiots, you know? When I was growing up, I came to comics at a time where I think it was kind of another independent revolution, and it's crazy to see you're seeing all of these independent comics now compete with Marvel and DC properties,

and people love them just as much. And I wanted to know from you, you were outspoken back then about like Stanley telling you basically, like, why don't you go tell your own characters? And recently I was listening to a pod where Ed Brubaker was kind of talking about how his feelings were hurt, that he has to watch Winter Soldier and maybe not be able to reap all those benefits. So to you, do you think that there's a way forward for comic book writers and artists that makes it a more equal industry within the big two? Or do they have to do something like you and Kirkman and go build something separate from that to reap the benefits? fits. I think the path that Stan

recommended to me was so brilliant, and I'll say this for every single creator out there. I think it works in every aspect of life in the creative arts, is work with a big company and build up your name and then go and start your own thing, and then some of your audience is coming with you, you know, because the big company will reach more people than you will reach on your own, you know? So you build up that massive audience and you take it with you whenever you go and do your own thing, and it means you've got really strong legs when you go out there

with something new. But as you can still do it, you know, if it's just you, and you've never been heard of before. But how much easier is it to sell into bookstores and comic stores and everything if you say, oh, this is the guy that did that night returns or watchmen or civil war or something? You know, it's so much easier to have a name. But there's another side to this too, which is, I have a hell of a time, Marvel, I loved it.

I really, really, really had a great time. I was there for almost a decade. I wrote all the things I loved as a kids. and it was the same in DC I got to write Superman, which is my favorite thing. So there's that aspect, because sometimes it's not always about the business side. Sometimes it's the pure love of doing it.

So I paid really well when I was at Marvel. It was great. And obviously you make a lot more money owning your own things. But I wouldn't swap those days for anything. And it gave me the audience that I needed to go off and do my own thing. But I also got to write Wolverine. You know, like I got to write it. And it's awesome.

I think the mistakes, some people may be, make is to hang around too long and then only do the company own stuff and then you maybe feel you know it's you've lost out in some kind of way I think the the trick is to try and do both if you can and what I did for a while when I was at my most part was I spent half my month right in and the other half right in Milloworld stuff I did that between about 2004 2009 and that was nice because it meant I still had cash coming in and everything and I I realized you know like the first thing I did was wanted made three hundred and forty million dollars as a movie and everything. And then as soon as I did kickass within minutes,

you know, we had the movie deal and everything. It was crazy. So I thought, right, I'm going to make a go of this. You know, I'm going to give this a try. For you, when you're writing a comic book, you have so much control. Like, you have so much control over what happens the flow of the story. Yeah. Put a TV show out, I would think is different. You have a showrunner. You have a room.

You have to, like, flesh out hours of TV. So what was that like for you having to potentially, like, hand over some of the reins to a series that, you and Frank built by yourself? It's a little different from other people. Generally, what happens if you're the rights holder, you know, when you license a thing to a studio to make, you do give up a certain amount of control.

And I did unwanted, which was awesome. I mean, I was really happy with it. But my involvement was minimal on the film side. Kickass in Kingsman, I was very involved because Matthew and I are good friends and we speak every day and everything. But I kind of had a little secret advantage here is that I'm the president of Miller World at Netflix. So I can choose the showrunner and I can choose.

So it does give you a certain amount of leverage, you know. But at the same time, you also have to be super respectful and really respectful of who you bring in because there's nothing, nobody's going to be, you know, your slave or puppet or whatever. You have to respect them as a brilliant creative in their own right, you know, so you don't ride roughshod over everyone. But that's what is very important,

what we've done in all these properties that you'll hear about coming up, as we interview lots of people, we talk to lots of potential creatives, find the people who seem to be on the same page, you have the best vision for it, and work with them. And then there's just always fine-tuning

and things on the back end. So by the end of the process, I mean, by the time, I think it was in March, early March, we handed in a lot to eight episodes. We were delighted, you know, we were really happy with it. You know, it just hungs together well.

So there was no surprises or nothing. I disagreed with it, and some great suggestions. I mean, Stephen Denight come up with the idea of taking the journey that's in half of issue one and a chunk of issue four, making that half of the first season,

you know, the 1929, which was a terrific idea because one that makes it unique. I mean, what superhero shows half set in 1929? You know, it looks more like Godfather 2. It looks incredible. But the other thing is it meant we were really emotionally invested in those characters.

Like their journey, their secret origin, meant something. And I loved that. Sam Ramey did it with the first Spider-Man movie. He took a 16-page Stanley Steve Ditko story at the origin and turned it in a two-hour movie. But this is like monumental. But the time those guys find this mysterious island that doesn't exist, it feels like man-meeting God. You know, it feels cosmic by the time you get that. Whereas when we talked about doing this as a movie, that was going to be a five-minute pre-credit sequence.

Recently, you announced that we're getting the final book in the Jupiter's Llamy. legacy saga. Can you tell audiences what they can expect before that hits newsstands? Yeah, absolutely. The Jupiter's legacy story has been four volumes so far. You've got one and two, which is kind of the past, the parents and everything. Then you've got the present day storyline, which is Chloe and Brandon and Hutch and everyone. That storyline, they won Frank Whiteley, Drew. And then the next storyline jumps forward the generation again. So you've got the past, the present, and this is going to be the future. So it starts with Chloe and Hutch

have been married and having children and where it goes from there and it ties everything up. It's the mystery of what the island really is completely explained. It's the resolution for all of these characters. What it's all been about, what it's all secretly been about it.

You think it's been about one thing, but it's been about something else. And that was the plan from the very beginning. Where this all goes is insane. It's 12 issues long and three of them are double-sized. So it's a beast. This is an absolute beast.

But this will have taken me in total 10 years to write, 10 years to write actually typing these six volumes. And I think it's my best thing. You know, this and Magic Order are the two things I'm most proud of, I think. Really? Wow. I'm really, really, really happy with him. Oh, Magic Order. I would love to see that next on screen, but I'm not going to.

We'll get that. Although I'll see the Magic Board. I've already written books two, three, and four, you know, so we're, you know, things are ticking a long. Lastly, I wanted to know, I think while we have you, for comic book writers today, younger comic book writers, comic book artists, I think it's been a really, really hard year with the pandemic and the comic book industry. What advice would you give them, especially if they're trying to embark on a career like yours where they're trying to make characters of their own

and they're trying to sell it to an audience when comic book stores are shutting down and it's, people are scared. Like, what advice would you give them? I just, there's so many ways to do this just now. You know, like, when I, I was a kid, the only way to get noticed was to self-publish something, which cost a lot money. Like, I didn't have money to do that, you know. So you were hoping to try and get in on the independence, because it cost hundreds, if not a couple of thousands to put together a black and white self-published comic, but can try and sell it at its shows and everything, you know, and I never had that money. But I managed to come in through the independent

comics where somebody slightly covered those costs a little bit. And then I got in, I started small and worked my way up through British comics, got into DC, Marvel, so up, now you can actually do it so much easier because the internet is your greatest friend. Get out there, get your stuff seen by as many people as possible. And if you've done something interesting, here's the absolute beauty of now, right, why I love this period in time, is that if you've done something interesting and people start talking about it, everyone could know about your book within 24 hours. That was unthinkable years ago. You had to take out double-page ads and wizard that you could never afford and all this kind of way. But the internet is an amazing level.

it's a great democratiser. It's fantastic. So what you've got is as bigger resources Marvel and DC you've got, you know, your budget is almost the same online if you think about it. You know, if you do something cool, it just has to be cooler than what Marvel and DC are doing to get people talking about your work. But I would still recommend going in that Marvel DC route. I do think not to undervalue it, it's actually a great way to get known. And if you do a great run on Iron Man or you do a great run on Batman or something like that or even one of the smaller characters. What an amazing entry. It's a calling card for your career, isn't it? I think it's a fantastic thing to do. Mark, I am honored, honored to interview you Drupers' Legacy. I had a blast

watching it. And I just want to say congrats that it's almost out in the world. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's out in my wedding anniversary, actually, next week. It's out in May the 7th. And my wife's a CEO at Netflix. And I said to her, that's my gift to you, actually. I don't need to She's probably just happy it's out. She's like, it's out. We can celebrate. Yo, thank you so much and have a wonderful day, all right? Thank you.