The Ringer-Verse - Five Biggest 'Loki' Midseason Questions. Plus, Head Writer Michael Waldron!

Episode Date: June 26, 2021

Mal and The Ringer's Rob Mahoney break down the themes in 'Loki' Episode 3 and the biggest questions to ponder heading into the season's second half (09:14). They also dive into your mailbag questions with Jomi (49:31). Then, 'Loki' head writer and creator Michael Waldron joins to chat about his influences, the chemistry among the cast, the differences between TV and movies, and more (77:55). Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: Michael Waldron, Rob Mahoney, and Jomi Adeniran Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Twice a week, Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay dissect the biggest topics in black culture, politics, and sports on their show, Higher Learning. They discuss the most important and timely conversations while also frequently inviting guests on the podcast and occasionally debating each other. Check out Higher Learning on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

Tremfaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today.

Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiatoradio.com. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predict. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a time. $25 bonus. Offered by Fanduel prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt.

Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Love is a dagger. It's a weapon to be wielded far away or up close. You can see yourself in it. It's beautiful until it makes you bleed.

But ultimately when you reach for it. It isn't real. Love is an imaginary dagger. It doesn't make sense, does it? No. Terrible metaphor. Damn. I thought I had something there.

And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host Binge mode, head of editorial here at The Ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to lamentist one, but to join us. on the ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Before we dive in today, a few reminders, the ringer verse is in its own nexus event. We are in a new timeline. The Midnight Boys, Van and Charles,

Poo-Pew, will be with you every Wednesday during the Loki run with their instant reaction to the latest episode, their episode three instant reaction on the feed for you already. I will be with you on Fridays during the Loki run to dive into the themes and theories. your mailbag questions, some special guests, including today, and more. Also, Midnight Boys will have a special Fast and the Furious pod for you off of FastNine on Monday. Justice for Han, let's go. Follow the ring ofverse on Spotify, whoever you get your podcast, follow us across our social channels and bear in mind,

of course, our friendly neighborhood spoiler. Warning, this episode will contain spoilers from Loki's third episode, Lamentus, as well as details from the entire MCU run to date. So proceed with more caution than Loki did while impersonating poor Patrice. Okay, we have a big episode today. Later in the show, I will be speaking with Loki head writer and creator Michael Waldron about the season to date. So please hang around for that. Great interview.

He's awesome. First, joining me today. now that he's finished sipping on some figgy port that he can't wait to tell you all about ringer staff writer NBA expert and your favorite

arc would be traveler Rob Mahoney Rob welcome into the ringerverse Mao I mean how long have we been best friends and also how many people are guarding the timekeepers right now I don't know let's talk about Bravery's and have some margaritas and then maybe I'll be able to answer that question

and also tell you exactly what love is. Rob, it is actually weird that we've never podcasted together before. We've worked together for multiple years in more than one place. Very weird, but the ringer verse is a wide, it's a wide world, you know? It's great to be here with you. We are going to talk today

about our biggest questions, our five biggest questions at the mid-season mark. Because, amazingly, I mean, I guess it's not amazing, given that this is how math works, but amazingly, we're already halfway through. We're three episodes into the six episode run. I want to talk about episode three, which was once again a wonderful episode of TV, but we also want to look forward, look backward,

time passes differently here. So I've heard. And I just want to start with your quick thoughts on episode three and the season to date because you said something really interesting to me when we were slacking about Loki in terms of how you think about this show overall. Share that with the listeners. Well, I think, you know, this show, I think more than the other Marvel series so far, this is kind of what I want out of this format. This is the show I didn't know I needed when they announced the slate. Loki was a character who I was kind of wary of putting the focus on for a whole show. But I've been so pleased with how it turns out because, or how it's turned out, because it's a show that I think has taken its time so far, something that the other series did

not do, whether that was in their power to control or not, whether that was in their power control or not. And it's let us know more about who these characters are. That's all I really want. That's all I want. I don't really need the plot connecting dots. I don't really need to know what Avengers are doing in between movies. I just want to know more about the characters as people. And I'm honestly, after this episode, I'm more invested in Sylvie at this point than I am with a handful of other main MCU characters just because they put her at a table with a couple glasses of champagne and let her have a real human conversation. That's what I'm here for. I love it. Of course, Loki kept all of the champagne for himself.

It's like, well, if she doesn't want it, I'll take both. You know? Champagne pairs beautifully, I would think, with the nuts and grapes that the Asgardians are so fond of. Delightful. You know, notes of, notes of Klooy in me, in the lamentous trade champagne, who can say. I, you know, I also love Loki. I think that's clear at this point.

I was a little bit surprised by some. of the response to this episode because it seems like, well, I think, you know, many, many people loved it, certainly, us among them. It seems like there's a good number of people who felt that it was filler or too slow or too tangential to the primary plot. And by primary plot, in this case, we would mean, you know, the timekeepers, the TVA, etc. I feel that, first of all, we did actually get key plot mechanic evolution in this episode. You know, we'll talk about Mobius and the TVA workers when we get to our key questions. But the reveal the TVA agents are regular people who do not remember their prior lives is huge in terms of what it tells us about the time police and abnient fascists, as Sylvie put it, who were running the TVA, etc.

But that revelation, the just action, adventure aspect of moving across Lamentus in pursuit of the arc, which I thought was actually like very well-paced and operated at a pretty pleasurable clip, all of that was wrapped inside of the thing that I have enjoyed the most about this show and which we got again here in full. this harmonious blend of plot and character study. This is a character study show. This is a show about relationships and understanding ourselves and other people. I will say I missed Mobius dearly. I'm wondering if we have a bit of a Grogoo situation here where you create something so good

that we just scream and protest anytime it's taken away. But that also actually highlights the achievement, I think, because the chemistry between Loki and Sylvie was sublime. And the things that they were discussing were incredibly compelling and engaging. And you have that again paired with just the wit and the humor and the crispness of the writing. A few questions. You know, have you really got nothing else better to do? Rude? Like, there are so many good moments like that.

where do you have it hidden in my heart? Well, then I'll cut it out. Nice, very droll. Lovely. How do I look like someone with a shit plan? Like on and on the list goes. The moment about whether that was the, which was that, diplomacy or on the heels of the diplomacy and guile line, like on and on and on the list goes. So I cherish the thematic examinations as I have every week, in this case, love, connection, trust, which we'll talk about more today as we go. we also had a really important confirmation inside of this episode confirming Loki is bisexual inside of the MCU. That is a really important moment. Overall, I thought another excellent episode centered on character dynamics, relationship building, bonding, mixed with plot

intrigue. And it's the third episode in a row where I thought the best sequences were just two people sitting at a table talking to each other about life. And I mean that in the best possible way. The show is a three for three for me at this point. If I had a glass here full of some sort of, whether it was a coffee from New Mexico or some sort of alcoholic beverage aboard the train, I would drop it on the floor and shout another. I dropped that callback. Let's get right into our questions because we have a lot to cover.

And I want to start perhaps predictably with love. Let's talk about love, Rob. And let's talk about journeys. What is our Loki variance journey and this show ultimately going to be about? What do you think this show is ultimately going to be about? You mean other than the furious typing of fan fiction writers everywhere shipping Loki variants with each other? You mean other than that?

In addition to that. So that is certainly embedded in the experience. The one thing I keep coming. back to it with Loki, and I feel like because they keep bringing it back to me, is this idea of failure. And, you know, Loki is confronted with his failures right in the first episode, shown all his greatest hits of all the times his plans have screwed up. You know, he tries to trick Mobius in the second episode and fails. This one, he comes up with this great plan where they're going to get to the arc, only to see it literally blow up in his face. You know, the whole

premise of this show seems to be forcing Loki to confront the idea that he's not always the smartest person in the room because even if it's because there's a superior loki in the room and that that humbling experience i think is an important part if you're going to have any kind of redemptive arc for him any kind of progression for him which as you mentioned this is a more internal story you know there are plot points there are things we need to move you know you want you want to keep the chains moving in terms of what's going on with the tv and whatnot but this is about what's going on in loki's head what's going on in his you know sense of identity and how he defines himself who he thinks he is And at the moment, he is a version of Loki who, as Sylvie says, does a thing.

He doesn't really come up with plans. He just goes, he's squirming, he's reactive. And I think that's a really interesting way for this show to put its lens on Loki, similar to the way that Wanda Vision did with Wanda, reexamining her backstory, reexamining Loki's backstory, all these kind of inexplicable things. I would say that Loki has done in some of the other movies. the first Avengers movie is really fun, but if you kind of track what he's doing beat for beat,

I don't think it makes a lot of sense. And now that's part of his character. Now they have reclaimed that idea and said, that's just kind of the way this guy rolls. And so I like that course correction for him of saying, this is a guy who doesn't really have plants. That's really interesting. Like the mercurial heart of who Loki is

and what it means maybe to gain whether through thinking more about his own decisions or through looking at these mirrors, these other Loki variants, some awareness of how that behavior manifests and what the consequences are. It was the title of the first episode, and we've heard the idea over and over again,

including in this episode of the glorious purpose, this, like, defining aspect of Loki's arc to this point. And I think one of the really interesting things about the show so far has been seen. not just other people call that into question, but Loki call that into question. What does that mean really? What is driving it?

And when you pan back like that and you start to think about the motivation behind that purpose and what is really propelling that pursuit, that's where I think you get into so many of the other themes that are all connected in this show and that are really at the heart of the examination, human connection, love, choice, consequence, et cetera, trust, change, our capacity for change, our interest in embracing or rebelling against that capacity.

And I left this episode, given the focus on love and what love is and how people experience love, really feeling like, I hope Loki finds that. And maybe it will be romantic love and maybe it won't. But finding that real and lasting connection. Like that was the thing I found myself thinking about most at the end of this episode. There are a few different things tied up in that that I want to talk about. The love is a dagger sequence after Loki enjoyed that figgy port. Outstanding.

It's worth examine. the Figy Port thing was so wonderfully. It just had to take my word on the Finky Port. I have to say that sounds delicious. Are you a port man? I don't have much port experience, to be honest with you, but now I am very invested in finding a Ficky Port. So, I mean, great, great guerrilla marketing going on in Loki this season. Yeah, all the port lobbyists out there, you know, really, really working to get to get the port establishment in front of the Disney Plus audience. So Loki, champagne, port, flowing through him, says to Sylvie, I thought of an answer, she says to what. Your question, love is a dagger, and then he conjures one. It's a weapon to be wielded far away or up close.

You can see yourself in it. It's beautiful until it makes you bleed. Now, that's not the conclusion of the speech, but I want to pause there for a minute because I find it really notable that if you parse this. that language, it doesn't just fit, even though they will, both the characters in the scene will ultimately say that the metaphor falls apart. It doesn't just fit love or a dagger. It also fits the idea of a variant. Oh, okay. You see yourself in it. It's beautiful until it makes you bleed. And I found myself wondering if that speech was a commentary, ultimately, on the nature

of the relationship between these characters. I really like that. Thanks, man. That one didn't fall apart. That metaphor did not fall apart. I mean, for one... Big metaphor guy. So much of the success of this show, I think, is pairing Loki with characters who will roll their eyes at him, which is something the movies did not do as effectively because he was just put into a different capacity being opposite Thor. So the fact that Sylvie gets to roll her eyes and chide him and, you know, pick him apart and what he says apart works. So it works so well.

that inclination is paired with actual admiration might be too strong, but respect and an acknowledgement of the qualities that he actually does possess. I think that's been true for the two central relationships in the show so far, Loki and Mobius. You know, the big metaphor guy makes you sound super smart exchange led ultimately to that wonderful I am smart, I know moment. And that's the same here already just one episode in to seeing, you know, obviously we meet Sylvia in a real way in episode too, but this is the first real episode that we have with these characters together. Well, and speaking to that respect, you know, what Sylvia's rolling her eyes at is not the love is premise. Like, they're actually kind of going back and forth on this idea. It's just that she doesn't

like his answer. Right, because he continues, but ultimately when you reach for it and the dagger that he's holding vanishes. Just like the metaphor, you know, it falls apart. Right. Yeah, love is an imaginary dagger doesn't make sense, doesn't know a terrible metaphor. But I think you're right. Like, you could feel in that moment that they actually both wanted to, like, find their way to something really revelatory together there. And you could feel that throughout the episode, like pair the loves a dagger exchange with the earlier conversation between Loki and Sylvie when he's sipping the two champains and we get this instantly iconic moment between them when he says, you know, it's a pity that the old woman chose to die.

And Sylvie says she was in love. He says, she hated him. Sylvie says, maybe love is hate. And he Loki conjures a quill from the air to mock her and says, she should probably remember that. What was that? Love is, love is hate? And she says, oh, piss off.

But there were so many things that I loved about that moment because that, like, striving for wisdom, but in the form of like maybe a type of pomposity, well-intentioned or otherwise that falls just a bit short, is definitely something our Loki would also do. And we have seen our Loki do time and time again. And I found it like really impactful and memorable, not only because of the sentiment, but because of the way they were behaving so quickly with each other. Like they smirk at each other. There's just this amazing acting. Sophia DiMartina was incredible in this episode. Tom Hiddleston is obviously always incredible. The chemistry that is unfolding between them, the little side gaze when he's when he's

sketching out the quote or miming sketching out the quote, that little nod. It was just like perfect. This whether they're ready to maybe like consciously admit them this to themselves or each other, this almost like knowing sense that this is an equal match. I loved that. If anyone wants to send us an infinite loop of Sophia D. Martino's eyebrow raise when she asks Loki about being with the prince, I would love it. Please, please. I need it in my life. But yeah, I love the prop work in terms of the quill and pen.

You know, it's independence, authority, style, and good props are apparently what make a good Loki. Style. The way he said style was just absolutely incredible. So you mentioned that moment where they ask each other about their relationships. Loki asks, is there a lucky beau waiting for you at the end of this crusade? And she says, yeah, there is actually managed me. quite a serious long-distance relationship with the postman whilst running across time

from one apocalypse to another. The internet is already a buzz with Stan Lee in Civil War theories. Sylvie and The Watcher and Forman, what do you think, Rob? We've gone too far. We've gone too far. The next part of that exchange, though,

is, again, quite notable, I think. And with charm like that, who could resist you? Well, people are quite willing in the face of certain dudes. I'm sure we are. It was only ever just to keep me going. The postman theorizing is very fun, obviously.

But I think that there's a way of giving that ensuing line to read that as just a story, like an actual indictment almost of the way that her life and her resentment of the TVA, which we'll talk about more in our next biggest question, has deprived her of the ability to actually make these lasting connections and have these relationships.

Like, the idea that one postman could be the only thing that could sustain an interaction across the way that she is actually living her life. But regardless of whether you think that was a fabrication or an actual reveal, like the tone and the language, it was only ever to keep me going, I just found very, very heartbreaking. Like, there's a desire with both Loki and Sylvie to feel so. something, but for that, something like that longing for that to be more substantial and lasting than what they have experienced in their life so far. Yeah, I mean, their exchange about not having anything real. You know, it's kind of heartbreaking in its own way. And that's saying something

for a character that was just trying to level New York City. And that's, again, part of the internal development with this Loki character. And I think, you know, I think they have taken some liberties in playing off the fact that we remember the Ragnarok Avengers' Infinity War version of Loki better than we do the original Avengers Loki. That version was very different. And they've kind of skipped some steps, I think, to some extent. But part of setting up this Loki as a character who can go forward, who can change, who can evolve, is setting up, setting him up as a character who is capable of love. Not even that he's going to be in some love story or relationship at the end of this, but just someone who is capable of caring about people in that way.

And that's a big journey. And I think it started with this kind of conversation. It's reflected in him talking about his relationship with his mother. And we can dig into that whole bag of worms. We will. Rest assured. I'll lay down on the couch and we can really get into it. But that really, to me, was this conversation in a nutshell, was establishing Loki as a

person who is even capable of having real equal, as you said, equal footing relationships with another person. Yeah, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned the Ragnarok and, of course, Infinity War Loki and how that version of Loki is so deeply embedded in our hearts, and our minds and how we think about the character. I think that's certainly been like a through line of the discussion over the first three weeks. I think there are some fans who are like, but this is, this is 2012 Loki.

This is the Loki, you know, who grabs the Tessoract and ports off into the, this new timeline, but who had just alongside the Chitari invaded New York. I think like one of the reasons that I, we talked about this in week one a bit, but one of the reasons that I have not gotten hung up on that or tripped up on that really at all is because, like, I think if you go back to the first Thor movie, Dark World, you see so much of that yearning in Loki already. even in the moments where he is doing something that is much more on the villain's side of the good or evil spectrum than the redemption arc heroism that we see from him when he challenges Thanos and ultimately sacrifices himself. Loki says in this season of TV, no one's ever purely good or no one's ever purely evil.

And that is so core to who he is. And even in these earlier years of the MCU and the earlier films that we had with Loki, like so many of the moments where he does something that you say, oh, no, why? It's because he's operating from a position of anxiety or disappointment or jealousy or fear, fear that he isn't good enough,

fear that he doesn't belong, fear that he isn't going to be valued or validated in the way that he wants or that other people are. So I feel that that has always been a part of who the character is and that giving us another chance to see him reflect on that and him reflect on the decisions that he's made and the things that he's done and why

is like a really cool thing because it makes you think about like again the nature nurture questions and when is something unfolding because of the context of the moment and the circumstances that you find yourself in and when is it unfolding because of who you inherently are

who you have the capacity to ultimately be. I think that reflection is crucial and it's, you know, again, if we take Loki as a character who isn't making grand plans, he's just kind of reacting to things and has the starts of plans, if we start from that place

and we zoom Loki out of 20, 2012, and we drop him in the TVA, and we show him a slideshow of what he was going to do in his life and the person good and bad he would become, that's not 2012 Loki anymore. That is a version who has seen a vision of his future and feels a way about it. I mean, he's very clearly moved by what happens in his, you know, in the future of that Loki. So, I mean, the timeline has already diverged. I think we're at a place where it's a different character. Now it's about how do we build that character into something interesting and something that develops in a different way than the other Loki did.

Yeah, absolutely. I think if we look at another moment that Loki and Sylvie share on that train in these conversations that they're having about love and life, when, you know, you mentioned the eyebrow wiggle that we get from Sylvie, but in response to Sylvie asking if there's been a princess or perhaps another prince in his life, and he says a bit of both, I suspect the same as you, again, this is like a milestone inside of the MCU. I hope that we get to see this manifest on screen for Loki. What does Loki say next?

But nothing ever real. This is what you hinted at earlier. Sylvie cuts in with real. This is crucial for establishing Loki as bisexual inside of the MCU and also in terms of the show's interest in examining the nature of connection, will Loki and Sylvie turn on each other over the course of the next three episodes? Will they turn on other Loki variants they meet?

Or have those other Loki variants turn on them? Maybe. Like, it's distinctly possible, but in a scene like this, we get the opportunity to see understanding building between them. And through that, they can also understand themselves better.

and we as viewers can understand them better too. And that is really like a special thing on this show. It makes me think of something that Michael Waldron told Joanna Robinson when he chatted with her on still watching before the season regarding Madman and how that show was such an influence for him when making Loki. And he said, Madman is about characters becoming aware of who they are. And I think that if we're asking ourselves this question of what is Loki? about, it's that.

Loki is about characters becoming aware of who they are. And then what happens once they have? I mean, they've been pretty clear about the fact that this show is about identity the whole time. It's not like they slow-played it. This isn't a Trojan horse. And so if you came to this show

expecting a plot delivery system, I mean, for one, if you come to any show expecting a plot delivery system, it's probably not a very good show. But the entire benefit of the medium is that you get to luxuriate with these characters, that you get to, you get to, spend time with them and really develop them. So I'm grateful for episodes like this. I could have gone

another 10 minutes on the train, you know, drunk Loki or not. Let's let's let's, you know, let's get some. Let's get another musical number. Why not? What do you want to hear Loki sing? For some reason, he seems like kind of a sweet Caroline guy to me. I don't know. Maybe it was just the call and response of that bar scene, but I could, I could see him really going for it. Oh my God. I love it. This episode is brought to by Weather Tech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be

clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. So you mentioned Frigga, outside of romantic love, this broader examination fits with so much of what we understand about Loki's relationships at large, that yearning paired with feeling that he hasn't been able to find exactly what he's looking for or hold on to it or maybe appreciated it, as is the case with Frigga when he did have it. Remember, of course, he saw, as you noted, her death in episode one in the time theater. when he's talking to Sylvie and reflecting on Frigga and on what she taught him, a fairly decent magic as Sylvie puts it. He calls her my mother and he says she was good, purely decent. And I loved the way that he reflected so fondly and tenderly on the magic that she taught him as a boy.

It was like really moving. I love particularly the fireworks as a choice because, they feel like Loki to me. Like there's flash and there's show and there's excitement and awe. But there's real power and real beauty there too if you stop to look at it for a minute. And when he says she was the kind of person

you'd want to believe in you, you pair that with something like Frigga's line to Loki and Dark World about how he was so perceptive about everyone but himself. Yep. And there's a cohesion here in this character assessment that's pretty amazing.

Again, considering the length of time we're talking about the number of movies and plot lines Loki's been kind of roped into to get anything like a through line, I think, is an achievement. And they're really threading that needle very well. And again, his relationship with his mother echoes what we've been talking about

about the lack of real relationships in the lives of Loki and Sylvia. And this was the closest thing Loki has had to a real relationship, is his relationship with his mother. Can I ask you the question that is on the minds of many people on the internet. We got a lot of mailbag questions about this. I had it, I had it down for us to talk about

already. I'm terrified. Are we shipping Loki and Sylvie? I don't even know how to answer this question in an existential sense. Like, can you ship Loki and Sylvie? So I think that you can. I would say a couple of different things. One, it doesn't even have to end up being a romantic or sexual thing. But the chemistry between the characters is just so supreme. Like whether they're ribbing each other and insulting each other or you have something like the moment where she wakes up from the nap. After saying, by the way, that she couldn't nap around on trustworthy people and then gets to the point with him very quickly where she can. And they just look at each other. Like the way that they're looking at each other when he's singing is just tremendous. But it's

it's not just the tenderness. It's like the trenchant insolence. You know, after he's kicked off of the train, a dark world call back there with Thor kicking him out of the open door on the ship and the tempad breaks. He's like, that amazing Tom Hedlston line reading of I did take quite a tumble. She says to him, you're not a serious man. And I love that because people thinking that about him is one of Loki's ability. biggest fears. And so, of course, he goes right into defensive mode. You know, you're right. I'm a God. Every time he says, I'm a God, I always think of Tywin, telling Joffrey that any man who needs to say he's a king is no true king. You know, and she replies, you're a clown, which is, of course, what he said

about the TVA workers. You got drunk of the train. I'm hedonistic. That's what I do. So I just am so invested in their relationship in whatever form it manifests, but I will say to your question about, Can we even ship it? I don't know if it's like too strange for Marvel to potentially even attempt. But I think that the idea of A-Loki falling in love with another version of Loki feels like the most poetic and apt thing in the world. It's like very elevated masturbation, which just feels very apt for a character as self-obsessed, but also striving for connection as Loki is.

I ship it. And I mean, maybe I asked the wrong question with Can, because this is really a like Jurassic Park. Your doctors never stopped to realize if they should situation versus if they could. I love the exchange you cited, though, about when Sylvie tells Loki he's not a serious man, because that's the moment that it crystallized for me. That's what Sylvie is, is Type A Loki. She is Loki that went to like an East Coast boarding school and, came back very prioritized in her life and what she wanted to do.

Yeah, I'm hedonistic too, but never at the expense of the mission, right? Absolutely. East Coast boarding school. Oh, my God. Great stuff. Okay, let's talk more about Sylvie. Let's get into our next biggest question. Who is Sylvie really?

What does Sylvie really want? Now, let me issue a caveat right at the top. It may be that we already know the answers to these questions. questions, right? And that we, as people on the internet who spend a lot of time talking and thinking about these shows, haven't quite reached the moment where we can accept that the things that they are telling us about the characters are true. But it's always fun to speculate. Is Sylvie actually a Loki variant using an alias as established here? Is Sylvie ultimately going to prove to be the enchantress from the comics? Or is Sylvie a new

MCU specific mashup. I vote for that one. Actually a variant, yes, is a Loki variant who has adopted this alias, but also possesses aspects of the enchantress character. We were talking on the Zoom before we started and Jomi said something that I think is right, which is, at the end of the day,

if you're making this show, it's going to be a little confusing if everyone goes by Loki. So it's helpful and handy to have another alias. Mal, I would like to present a breadcrumb to you. And you can either put it in line with the other breadcrums or we can sweep it up and throw it away.

I'm going to leave it up to you. Do you have any figgy port for me to pair with this breadcrum? Unfortunately not, but the crumb isn't quite substantial enough to warrant a port, I don't think. It'd be drowned out. But in episode one, when Mobius and Loki are talking about Loki's glorious purpose, and he says it's to rule Midgard.

Okay. So that's Exhibit A. Exhibit B, in this episode, when Sylvie casually refers to the truth about the TVA and its agents and the fact that their minds are all wiped, she says that C20 was just a quote unquote regular person on Earth, which to me, like Loki talks about Earth like an Asgardian, and Sylvie does not.

Which suggests either Sylvie is not a Loki in the strictest sense, but a human who's been like given powers by Loki or a variant of Loki in some way. or Sylvie was taken from Asgard at such a young age or adopted from Asgard at such young age that she doesn't think about the universe like an Asgardian would, which I think is where this latest tease of the Sylvie featurette that went online comes in. Yes, okay, there's a lot.

That was a bigger breadcrum than you. Okay. A couple breadcrones, maybe even like a tiny piece of crust, you know, the corner of a slice. I'm hungry. Can you guys tell? I mean, I'm like ready for my mid-morning snack. You know, how about 11sies?

Jomey, you get that now because you've watched Lord of the Rings. I understood it. I'm ready for second breakfast myself, to be honest. So, okay, we certainly see and have gotten plenty of emphasis on the nature of Sylvie's magic as enchantment magic, which obviously is fueling in addition to her name being Sylvie. the enchantress theories, you know, we see the way it works, both in the opening sequence, the really, like, harrowing opening sequence with Hunter C20 and later throughout the episode, as Sylvia's explaining to Loki how this magic works, which we'll get back to momentarily when we have our first mailback question of the day, the emphasis on that enchantment magic,

certainly not accidental. Some key exchanges in this episode that we should run through for a minute. Are you sure you're a Loki? Hmm. Lines like there are not in the show by accident, right? And the response is you're in my way, which is not an answer. Well, just the fact that they put the line, what makes Aloki a Loki in Sylvie's mouth is meaningful in itself. Yes, and that entire exchange,

you already cited the exemplary reply style. But the fact that the characters are engaging with that idea is pretty, pretty compelling. Okay, another one. You're not the only tech savvy Loki, to which Sylvie replies. Don't ever call me that. This is like a similar exchange to something we got at the end of episode

too. What, tech savvy? No, a Loki. Don't call me variant. I'm sorry about not calling some faded photocopy of me, Loki. Good, because that's not who I am anymore. I'm Sylvie now. Oh, you changed your name. Brilliant.

It's called an alias. It was not very Loki like. Yeah? What exactly makes a loki a loki? Independence, authority. Style. Now, ultimately, independence and authority and style. But the idea of independence would support what Sylvie has done. Like, forging your own path, right? You don't just have to use the name or follow the steps that somebody else set out for you.

You get to decide who you're ultimately going to try to be. There's a lot of parts here in terms of Sylvie clues. in terms of how these characters see themselves. Even like, I'd never have done that. Yeah, well, I'm not you. I mean, these lines are here to make us think about the actual potential for twists and further reveals, but also ultimately for the philosophical reflection.

Where do you land? After you consumed your own breadcrum, where do you land? You digested it. Delicious. There's big, if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck energy from this episode in general. because Sylvie fights like Loki, moves like Loki in a lot of ways.

She jouses verbally like Loki. So if she isn't some version of Loki at her core who was divorced from her circumstances, obviously in a very different way, I would be very surprised by that revelation. Yeah, me too. And you mentioned earlier the Meet Sylvie featurette that Marvel posted this week, which was a treasure trove actually of clues. I will issue for the next, let's say, 60 to 90. seconds. A specific spoiler warning for this. Like if you're if you don't like to watch trailers and

look at clues in there, this is kind of of a piece. Marvel put it out. It's official. We can definitely talk about it. But if you don't want to hear anything that's in it, fast forward 90 seconds. Sophia D. Martina, flat out says she's another version of Loki. Kate Heron flat out says, she's Sylvie. She's not a Loki. So you get right there that back to back is like, there's a moment where we get a snippet of footage that we have not seen yet. So it's from something still to come of Sylvie saying the universe wants to break. so it manifests chaos like me. That's something that we can keep in mind

as we assess what Sylvie's glorious purpose really is. But there's also a moment where we see, paired with a line about learning about Sylvie's backstory, what appears to be young Sylvie entering the TVA. Now, could that be another young Loki variant? Definitely.

But if we pair that with what we heard in this episode about Sylvie being on the run, from the TVA for her entire life, a lot starts to click into place here for us in terms of, again, motivation and also what the ultimate pursuit might be. Very notable in this episode that Loki talked a lot about his childhood

and his mother and Sylvie offered up very little about herself. Says that she taught herself magic. Says that she knew she was adopted after Loki's incredible. Is that a bit of a spoiler for you? Sorry about that line. But when he asked about her mother, she says, I barely remember her just blips of a dream at this point.

And she even notes at one point that Loki, by offering up all this information, has given her a tactical advantage, something that she is clearly seeking to avoid providing in turn. So we're obviously going to get more. We are going to learn more about where Sylvie came from, what parallels there are between Sylvie's upbringing and Loki. and what distinctions there are, and all of those things are ultimately illuminating. When the Loki variants share these parallels with each other, and when they are different, all of those ultimately serve as mirrors for these characters

because they can understand something better about themselves either way and anything in between. And as we unravel what Sylvie's plan is ultimately and what she knows about the TVA, that little clip of showing a child Sylvie, or at least, again, what we're assuming as a child, Sylvie, I think could be instructive in that way because what she knows fundamentally

has to be something that an eight-year-old could see and understand and know to run from. If that's kind of the point where, as you said, she's been running her whole life. Has she been running her whole life since she was 10 or since she was 15? That can mean a lot of different things. But I think the kernel of truth,

whatever she's operating from, has to be something so clear and fundamental in terms of indicting what the T.E. is and does, that even at that age, she would know to run from it. Did you think it was at all strange that Sylvie would know as much about the TVA as she does, you know, know to hide out in the apocalypses, know to collect these reset charges and what they do, and then not know that her magic wouldn't work inside of the TVA facility? Did that seem odd to you or does that actually support what you just said?

Which is maybe everything that Sylvia's been collecting since that first moment inside of the TVA where she was brought in as a variant has come out in the field. And only that initial response and however it latched onto her and guided her moving forward came from actually being there in the complex. It is a little weird that for someone who, again, is so meticulous. This is type A loki we're talking about, that she would never open a point. portal and kind of poke her head in and see what the TVA is like. The fact that it would be that new to her where she wouldn't understand the rules and conditions there is a little surprising,

but I also wonder, is her plan changing? Well, what do you think her plan is? Like, was bombing the sacred timeline as it seems to this point, specifically to get everybody out in the field, create the diversion so that she could penetrate the TVA, make her way to those golden elevators, and find the timekeepers. Like, that's what it seems like so far. So, that seemed to be it. We buy that. Do we think that we know that she's not interested in in ruling the TVA that's stated?

Is she looking to kill the timekeepers, destroy the sacred timeline, unspool the chaos that their order is definitionally constricting? Because it feels to me like, especially if the life on the run

pans out and it's true one bears fruit, then a life spent defined by other people's terms would be one of the many things that she's rebelling against. But do you think that she's actually seeking something specific, like the restoration of a given timeline, something that connects to specific characters from her life and her original timeline and past? Or is this a more general, glorious purpose and mission to defy the confines and the strictures that the timekeepers are seeking to. I could see it where,

especially knowing what we do about her lack of a relationship with her mother at the very least, and we can maybe assume both parents, maybe she was separated from them in some way. However she became a variant, whatever kind of time mechanism that was, maybe she went to a place that was happier,

that was better, you know, that was more satisfying for her, and she was pulled out of that. And I could see this as basically a play to get, back to that place or just to destroy the industry that separated you from it. But one thing I keep coming back to about her plan, because I don't think it's some high-minded

thing where she wants to pull back the curtain and show exactly what's going on with the TV. I don't think she cares about that that much because she just learned about the fact that the TV agents' brains are being wiped, because we know she's never taken a hostage before now. So I think we can assume she's never really been in their brain in that particular way, she's probing for answers. She's never really had time to do it. And so that makes it a little strange to me that before this episode,

she seemed totally cool, basically killing all the minute men she ran into. I wanted to ask you about this. Does that change now that she knows kind of the truth of who they are? I'm glad you brought this off. I wanted to talk to you about this because when she reveals

that it was in the process of talking about what happened with C20, when she reveals to Loki that everybody at the TVA used to just be a person, how she's trying to access that memory, Loki reveals to her, it seems at least, that the TVA, that the people of the TVA don't know that. It seems like Sylvie was not aware of that to that point.

I think we have to hope that's true, because whether it is the reckless abandon with which Sylvie is disintegrating Minutemen or the psychological torment of what she does to C-20. Now, I think in the most generous interpretation possible, you could say, well, she's...

She was just trying to give her some potato skins. Some buffalo chicken, man. Delicious. Margaritas, potato skins, Buffalo Chicken, sign me up, you know? The borderline, like, acclimacy mind probe, I'm less interested in, personally. But on the one hand, it's like, okay, well, part of the function of this episode, and I think many people were, you know, feeling this way already, but this is solidified here, is that

timekeepers are the villains. That's clear. Does that make Sylvie the hero? And if so, how do we reconcile the way that she is eliminating? these people and tormenting them when she knows that they are, in fact, people. What doesn't she know about their own awareness is kind of like the crux of that? I think in a way, though, it's quite fitting because, again, that's where we get back to that idea that no one's ever purely good or purely evil.

And that was a Loki with Loki with any number of Loki variance in particular. That's really core to the character study. so I think that would fit that you have to kind of take the good with the bad and work your way forward from there. You know, a little justice, a little murder,

it all kind of comes out in the watch, you know? A lot of devil imagery so far. We should note that. I mean, obviously the horns are comics canon, right? But even in addition to that, you know, recall the devil portrait at the chapel in episode one

with the Kabloy kid. In this episode, the woman who shoots Sylvie and Loki calls them devils. She says, you're no travelers, there's your devils and then what do you devils want with me? The opening song playing over Sylvie's mind probe of C20 is called demons by Haley, Keoko, please forgive me.

I've got demons in my head. Now, to be clear, like, that applies to Loki too, not just Sylvie. And again, that moral complexity is central to who these characters are. But can't really, you know, we've said this every week. Like you can't really ever let yourself off the hook for rooting for Loki fully. And yet the redemption and that path towards self-awareness and some version of apotheosis is kind of the point. It's interesting. It's complex.

I love it. And I hope he never gets to a place where he is purely heroic. That's just a less interesting character. Totally agree. Speaking of the dynamic between these two, we've arrived at our first delivery detour of the day. Jomea Deneron is here with the mailbag, weather. It is from the postman, who can say. All right.

Our first question comes from Roberti. Roberti asks, was Loki enchanted this entire episode? From the moment Sylvie grabs Loki in the TVA, everything goes crazy. Would that be her enchanting him to see if he's trustworthy and willing to join her side?

We got a lot of versions of this question. Rob, what do you think about this? Well, where is the moment where we think he would be enchanted? Because they kind of tussle in the TVA. I guess you could argue it was there. But ultimately it's... But the magic doesn't work there. No.

We see Sylvie try to enchant a Minuteman without success. And ultimately it's Loki who opens the portal that takes them to Lamentus. So that's where this thing kind of falls apart for me. But I'm all for it. I'm all for like, let's go back to the tape. Let's see if this could check out. But I think between that and the fact that as far as, we know Loki seems pretty baffled by what Lamentus is in its state.

He's clearly never been there before. That's where it seems like this can't be quite right. Yeah. So I do think this is interesting. And broadly speaking, I think we should always keep this in mind. Like, can we ever trust what we're seeing when we're dealing with characters who operate in the realm of illusions or enchantment? Like, can we ever, ever accept on face value?

what is unfolding before us. We always have to be skeptical. So even if this ends up not being the case here, it could be in a future episode or a future sequence, definitely. So I love the question, and I love keeping this in mind as we watch. In this case in particular, I think it's, I'm going to say two things. One, I think that what we saw was happening. Okay. If something like this is unfolding, though, I think it is more likely that it is the opposite and that Loki was actually the one enchanting Sylvie in order to try to, just as she was trying to do with C20, gain information, gain awareness of her plan, insights about her knowledge of the timekeepers, her glorious purpose, etc. Let's think about some of the things that happen in this episode on this front.

When she ultimately does give him the lesson about how enchantment works, and this is on the heels, of course, of him saying earlier that it wouldn't work on him because his mind is too strong, which maybe is bullshit, right? but like maybe is true. I don't know. Was he taking acclimacy lessons at some point in the face of a ligillamins? It's what you would tell a Loki

if you were trying to adchant him. Yes, absolutely. So Sylvie says, have to make physical contact, grab hold of their minds. And he's saying how? It depends on the mind. Most are easy and I can overtake them instantly.

Others are stronger ones. It gets tricky. I'm in control. But they're there too. In order to preserve the connection, I have to create a fantasy from their memories. Now, on the one hand, you can say,

Well, if Loki is asking about this, it means that he doesn't know how it works and thus could not be enchanting Loki. However, Loki loves a ruse. Loki loves a ruse, okay? And even though he asks how enchantment works here, let's not forget what he said in episode two. Enchantment is a clever trick,

cowardly, a bit amateurish, but clever. Now, if we go, back to that, does that imply that he already actually does know how to do this and is just playing out a scheme here? It's Loki. Never rule it out. Plus, inside the course of this episode, we saw magic from him, like with the falling building that felt new, felt a little bit different. Could that be Sylvie's magic manifesting some way? But I think the key, if we go back to Sylvie's lesson about how this works is something you already said, which is at least based on what the

are telling us, Loki has never been here, doesn't know what Lamentous one is, whereas we know Sylvie has traveled through these apocalypses to hide out and knows and says this one's the worst. So when Sylvie says, in order to preserve the connection, I have to create a fantasy from their memories, it stands to reason that the only person whose memory this could be between the two of them is Silvys. Plus, I mean, when you take into the fact that it seems like Loki is much more invested and interested in teaming up with Sylvie than vice versa, I don't really see what she would have to gain from enchanting him at the first place. So I'm with you.

If there is an enchantment going on here. When Ravono was like, I'm going to kill him, Sylvie was like, okay. I could see the next episode beginning with Mobius showing up, right? They know that they're going to be in another apocalypse. Maybe they're popping through Doomsday after Doom's Day to try to find them. They show up, they rescue them. Great. That can happen.

But maybe the reveal is ultimately that Loki gets the kernel that he needs and then boom, the illusion melts away. Jomi, what do you think? I agree with you. I also think that it's either, because, you know, she takes a nap and our great producer, Steve, mentioned that he might have enchanted her

on the train. I believe that if he did enchant her, it's in the TVA, you know, in that moment when they're tussling. The thing about that is, and I was thinking about this, we don't see, you know,

Loki and Thor is out there in the street. She's not really doing too much, you know, besides the, you know, illusions on the rainbow bridge and in, you know, when he meets Thor on Earth. And then in Avengers, he doesn't need to, you know, enchant people because he has the mindstone. You know, he has the staff to do it for him. So it's interesting to see this leap in Loki's skills, you know, when his backs against the wall. You know what I'm saying?

So I think that there's a possibility he's enchanting him or he should chanting Sylvie. But it's interesting to see, like, how, you know, all of a sudden, Loki's got all these skills. that we didn't know he had. You know, he's like a five-told player that all of a sudden he's turned to a 10-foot player. He can pitch, he can play right field. Like, what's going on? You know?

But I love to see it. I love to see it. A regular Otani, you know? Do it all. I'm going to say ultimately again, just the formal, formal prediction is that that's not what's happening. But if it is, that that's the way that I could see it unfolding. I hope that Loki is not enchanting Sylvie, ultimately.

But you know what? I can talk myself into anything. Like, if that is what's how. happening, then I do think there's a way as foul as that would be where the bonding that they're experiencing can still be real for them, even if it is inside of this mind probe. But that would be very fucked up. If Loki enchanted Sylvia while she was asleep on the train, that's going to be a no for me. Don't like that. Don't like that at all. Let's talk about Mobius. Missed him. Absolutely. Can't wait for his grand return, ready to pour the Jostal over him in celebration.

Mobius experience and awakening? Now that Loki knows this information, this crucial information, and can share it with Mobius, and will that awakening lead Mobius to join up with Loki and Sylvie, should they remain aligned,

and rebel against the TVA? I think we will, just because we've established that Mobius is one of the few characters who can read Loki pretty well and kind of see through some of his ruses, so I think he would be able to know that this is, isn't just another trick.

I think we'll get that initial beat of hesitation and skepticism. If that information is delivered to him through Loki or by Loki, but ultimately he'll come around to it. And we've just seen enough of Mobius in other rooms where Loki isn't there to know that he isn't plugged in on whatever is happening in the TVA in an executive level kind of way. Yes, absolutely. It's never met the timekeepers. No.

And there are so many things now on the heels of this revelation from Sylvie. that everyone at the TVA is a variant, just like us, as she says. Like, think back to what Mobius said to Loki in episode two when they were talking about where everyone comes from and who everybody is. And Mobia said, exists as chaos. Nothing makes any sense. So we try to make some sense of it. And I'm just lucky that the chaos I emerged into gave me all this, my own glorious purpose.

Because the TVA is my life and it's real because I believe it's real. So imagine the impact of him realizing that's not true. Now, the thing that you then have to immediately ask and wonder about is, has he experienced prior moments where he realized that was not true? Has he been reset? Like, is this like a Bucky Winter Soldier situation where the brainwashing has to kind of be persistent in order for the overlords to maintain control? You know, Joanna mentioned like the cop of the hosts in Westworld. I found myself thinking about Battlestar Galactica and the idea like all of this has happened before

and will happen again element. Like is that going to be a part of this story too? You know, think of the sequence with the rings by the whiskey tumbler in Rvona's office and when she said they're all from you, like maybe literally like that Mobius who just did not remember because he has been wiped. And then you think of things like

and you reassess like the jet skis, clearly now his attachment to jet skis. can read as a relic of his former life, just guzzling Giasta, riding on the open sea. The rollerscape response that he had in her office, like, has he brought her all those things and doesn't remember from the wipes? Are all of those other, like, tokens from TVA agents' lives? Like, what about the pen? The Roosevelt pen? Is that from Rvona's life? Is that from Mobius's? If Mobius learns this and rebels, will other people who have been imprisoned by the TVA join him? Like, we'll B-15 join.

We'll C-20 join. And what will this mean for the bonds between these characters and our Loki variants moving forward? Yeah, I mean, just from the economy of characters, this is not a huge cast. So one of these people has to be a foil on screen for them. Ravona seems like the most likely candidate there, that she clearly knows more than everyone else. I could see B-15 and C-20, especially from the... way they've kind of leaned so hard on B-15, like, roughing up Loki and him messing with her with, you know,

the temporal looping and stuff like that, there's going to be a scene at some point where they're, like, on the same side, taken down a hallway of whoever together. Like, that is going to happen at some point. But I also think there's a string that the writers can pull here. You know, we've talked about Loki's mommy issues already. He's also a character who has very deep-seated daddy issues.

You know, a lot of the other movies and his plot lines are about his relationship with Odin, the all father, the all daddy. Blame lies at the feet of the all father now and always. I'm sure if he were on Lamentis or in the TVA witnessing this absolute decimation all around him, he would just conveniently fall right into the fucking Odin's sleep. Oh, sorry, guys. Failed a little fatigued. Just going to dip out for a few minutes.

You'll figure it out. Odin. I'm never going to bag on anybody for a nap. A well-timed nap, crucial, crucial to getting through any kind of apocalyptic event, apparently. But you have this parallel there between, you know, what Loki's doing and, you know, his relationship to this father who has deceived him about the origins of his life and where he came from. And you have Mobius who, to the extent that he has a father or creator figure, you know, I don't know if these lizard men are real or not. We can get into that, too, if you want. You will. Stay tuned.

But it's a similar kind of deception as far as where you came from, who you are, what your purpose is and how you got to this place. I could see them connecting on that level. I love it. This brings us to our next delivery detour. Show me. What do we got? We hear. Next question comes from Juan Solo.

Great name. Amazing. With the 90s, early 2000s references with Mobius, the Jostas, the Jostas, the Jet Ski, Baggins. is it possible that Mobius is a variant of Owen Wilson? Queer the wow memes. Wow, wow, wow. Wow.

Wow. Wow. I love this. I love this. What a great question. I mean, I have to say real missed opportunity to not give Owen Wilson the high and tight bottle rocket haircut for this role. I would have been here for it.

We still have three episodes to go. It's true. There's time. There's there are Mobius, variance left to uncover. Time passes differently. Who knows how long it takes for hair to grow? Who can say?

All right. Next big question. There's a lot tied up in this. We've talked about a lot of it already. All of this is connected. Very apparent that the timekeepers are the villains. That is clear. They are robbing people of free will.

They are attempting to maintain a level of control that nobody should possess. Right. The question I think is, who are the timekeepers? And what specifically are they working to either achieve or avoid? What end does the sacred timeline serve for them or what beginning? We've been talking since the first episode about the fascist imagery, all of these signs pointing to the fact that these were the bad guys, these were the villains.

We should not trust something was very wrong here. language in this episode like time police, omniscient fascists, again, imprisoning their workforce, robbing them of their lives, their memories, their sense of self, in a vacuum,

horrifying, in a show about understanding your sense of self, particularly nefarious and positioned as something that needs to be challenged and torn down. What are they,

what are they trying to preserve or avoid, Rob? This feels like the natural place for Richard E. Grant to enter this conversation. Because I think he has to be involved in some capacity. My guess would be as a version of Loki who kind of got exactly what he wanted, which is ruling Midgard or Asgard or whatever, maybe everything, apparently all of time in this particular case, I don't know, but a version who is invested in protecting that. Basically, a manifestation of Loki's worst and most destructive instincts that our Loki has

to then confront. That seems like the natural place that this could go. But But personally, I'm rooting for the doors open and there's three lizard dudes in there. I just want the lizard dudes. Well, okay, let's actually go right to our next mailback question. Then we'll circle back to some of that because the final mailback question of the day is connected to exactly that. Jomi, what do we got? From Peter Raymer, what are the odds that it's a Loki variant or three who are currently running the TVA? So you like this theory wrap.

You like the idea that the timekeepers are actually going to be other Loki variants, Richard E. Grant or otherwise. I do. I mean, just from our experience with these Marvel shows so far, I don't necessarily think it's going to be some big bad that's going to pop up in another movie. It's going to be more contained than that based on what they have shown us they are willing to do. So your temperature check on the King, the Conqueror theorizing,

is we're not getting in in this show. That's where you are with it. I mean, to the extent that I know who Kang is at all, that is the case. And trying to figure out his whole deal from wikis has been like trying to put a shredded document back together. So if you want to catch me up on Kang. It's true. But yeah, just by how much time we have left, the characters they've shown us

on the shows, what the other series look like, it seems most natural that we're pointing to another Loki running the TVA in some capacity, which would also explain why in like a Highlander or Jet Lees the one kind of way, they're like hunting down other Loki's, other Loki variants who could be in some way a threat to him. Right. The most direct threat, right? I like that. That's interesting. That does get back to, we've talked about Ravona a few times, but the question of Ravona's role, because there are many reasons that I like the idea of Kang showing up in this show so much. And I mean, we know Kang is coming in Quantum Mania, the next Ant Man movie, and the connections between what we're seeing in Loki, what might come in quantumania, what might come in the next

Doctor Strange film, Multiverse of Madness, how that connects back to Wanda Vision, given that we're Wanda is going to be in the Dr. Strait. All of this stuff connects, right? The multiverse is coming to the MCU. We're not going to exit this show with the sacred timeline intact. It seems almost impossible. Is Ravona also brainwashed or wiped like everyone else? Is she in on the con and the game?

Her comics connection to Kang the Conqueror is one of the reasons that I think, ultimately she is in on it. But again, like almost with everything else in the show, you could kind of find the clues and the nuggets to support your case either way, like the way that she was talking to Mobius about how she's never seen the timekeeper so involved. Maybe that's just one more defense mechanism

for another character manifesting to excuse how little that character actually has seen or knows about this thing that they're working for every single day. Maybe, though, you look around at all of those relevant, from other people's lives, and that points to a level of involvement in this hideous deed that would be very notable. I'm not only into the King theory still. I will say I love the Loki Timekeeper theory, though, the Loki timekeeper theory, for every reason that you just said, if you just go back to the other, like the earlier trailers, you know, we see what appears to be King Loki coming.

If anyone's read Vote Loki, like presidential candidate Loki clearly coming. We're going to meet other Loki variants. That's clear. Is King Loki perhaps going to be actually operating inside of the TVA in some capacity? Maybe. One of the other theories that I'm increasingly into, Joanna raised this last week and I was like, oh, that's interesting, but wasn't fully on board. And now the more I think about it, the more I like it is the idea that the TVA could actually be in the quantum realm. Like, is this the microverse city that we glimpse in Ant Man and the Wasp?

The comp of the time passes differently language. Miss Minutes saying long ago, all of that. Even just like the extra clues in this episode of the hundreds of years ago for C20s, memories and Sylvie's description, even something like the focus on the amount of energy needed to power the temp pad. Like, that makes me think of quantum mechanics and the quantum realm inside of the MCU. Arjuna has a theory that I love, if he'll join us for 60 seconds here to share it,

that the ultimate big bad is going to be miss minutes. Sir, you have the floor. All right. So as we've learned in this episode, everybody, it seems in the TVA is in the dark because they're just variants that are brain washed and don't know. But as we learned in episode one, who is or what is the thing

that presents the information to variants that come in? It's Miss Minutes herself. It gives us a lot of the exposition around the TVA, and we're already poking holes in that. So it makes me feel like she is the one, this training video, you know, AI, whatever she is, the one that's potentially pulling the strings and kind of tricking everybody here. She is very charming. But as Loki said, as you guys have mentioned before, everyone's a little bit of good and a little bit of bad. We've seen her good side, but what is her bad side?

under no circumstances is Miss Minutes to be trusted. No, absolutely not. She is up to something. She's almost too prominent in the marketing for the show for her role to only be what it's been, which makes me think she is somebody hiding in plain sight. Also, disseminating propaganda, right? A red flag right away.

That amazing moment when Loki is supposed to be watching his training videos and is asking, like basically who or what are you? Like, are you, you know, and especially in the larger like Blade Runner influence aspects of, you know, walking through the soul detector, what you know if you had a soul,

are you a robot? Like, who is this character? Really, we have had a lot of moments that draw our attention to that. So whether it is like an avatar or some sort of, I don't know, like AI? I mean, she's a replicates.

You already hit it. Will we be getting Harrison Ford in Loki? I would love that so much. I do kind of like this theory. This is interesting. It's got legs. Oh, God. Okay, we kind of already touched on everything that was in our final question,

which was basically about the timeline plots and what it might mean for the rest of the season and phase four. you know, how many other Loki variants are we going to meet? Are we going to see Kid Loki, the Richard E. Grant mystery, what this might mean for Quantummania, multiverse of madness. I guess the last thing I'm curious to ask you, just as a fan, do the heavy rumors that season two is happening, that we'll be getting a season two of Loki,

influence anything about how you're watching the show? Definitely. Whether it's thinking that Miss Minutes is hell or otherwise. I mean, they influence the way you think about having an actor, like Owen Wilson on the show and would he be in a second season or even one like Tom Hiddleston, for example, in a show that could be about any number of Loki's Sylvie included. I think you have to think about that stuff if you're trying to plot out where it could go. How many Loki variants can enter the MCU in another way beyond the vehicle of the show Loki?

Like that is one of the things that I do keep thinking about because as overjoyed as I was to get this show and to be back with Tom Hiddleston's Loki, like the one thing that I was, like, oh, I don't want them to undo the main arc, right? And I think that the way this has been structured so far is brilliant for numerous reasons, including avoiding that. You know, this offshoot mechanic gives us the opportunity to spend time with this character without compromising existing canon. But is Hiddleston's Loki going to reenter the movies at some point going to go into other

shows beyond this? Does Sylvie come in as, in essence, like the replacement? Does Kid Loki? That was, Jomi and I talked about this before the season. Like, we liked the theory that Kid Loki would be the one who entered the wider MCU tapestry again because of all of the Young Avengers building and bricklaying that has happened so far. And I still think that's actually where I land. Though like, you spend this 35-ish minutes with Sylvie and you're like, how could we ever

say goodbye to Sylvie again? Which is, of course, how we always felt about Hiddleston. Maybe we just need the Loki expanded universe. Is that where this is going? I'm all aboard. Put me on that train. Well, just from a narrative standpoint, I don't think we're going to get Tom Hiddleston Loki

in any more MCU movies after this, in anything more than maybe a quick cameo. I just don't see him popping up in that capacity. But you brought up something as we were kind of outlining the show that I hadn't thought about, which obviously you connect this to Wanda Vision and to Quantumania and to Spider-Man. The one property I hadn't really thought about was what if,

which to me I had always thought, about as just like, oh, this is going to be a fun diversion where they explore some other possibilities for these characters, never thought about it from a canonical perspective. And I wonder, I don't, tell me if I'm giving this show too much credit, but I can't help but read Loki as very meta-textual. I can't help but look at the TVA as this entity that's dedicated to him maintaining a sacred timeline and see Kevin Feigey and Marvel Studios coming to terms with the chaos that they are about to unleash, right? Yes. So I asked me, I asked me, Michael Aldrin about this, actually. And whether, like, the past, present and future of the MCU

and the way those things inform each other are actually the timekeepers, really. I, with what if, so I had thought that even if the stories that we got in what if were different from the specific storylines from the what if comics, that it would be in that mold, like these, these old histories, right? I am now wondering if these will actually be stories about variance after the timeline has been bombed. And all of these timelines are shooting off and we get to see all of these different characters experiencing life in a different way. And I think that, you know, again, in part just because we know, we know, like, it's in the name of the movies. We know that the multiverse is here. Like, we know that this is going to be at the heart of what phase four is.

And I do see how, like, for some people that might be like, okay, well, this is just a lot to track or confusing or it heightens my anxiety about if I miss one thing, will I be able to opt back in, basically, and find. that on-ramp, I think the thing I love about it, in addition to just how, you know, central multiverses to like comic book storytelling and how true to form that feels, I love that it will give us more and more versions of hopefully what we're getting here, which is the chance to not only go on new adventures with familiar people and new people, too, but to better understand the characters that were already attached to

and the ideas that the MCU has granted meaning to by looking at them differently, right? Like, I always think about the moment when Harry sees his father, James, taking his owls and things like, it was like looking at himself, but with deliberate mistakes. You know, I always think about, like, that line and how transporting that can be

for characters and viewers or readers alike, when you get something that is familiar but distinct, it helps you better appreciate not only what you're consuming in the moment and what is still to come, but actually it doesn't diminish what came before it and riches it if it's done well. And Loki is done well. We are in very capable hands here. And, you know, I have no reason to doubt that we will be moving forward to.

I'm all in another. No, you're right. This show has done it perfectly. And to circle back to what we talked about at the top, it was the exact story I didn't know I wanted, that I didn't know I needed from a character who I thought was kind of a scene stealer and other stuff. And I'm delighted to have it. But look, I can't say it any better than you did, Mal. So I seed the remainder of my time. Well, lucky for you were out of time. So you're not actually seeding anything. And it was a hollow gesture, but one that I appreciated nonetheless. Rob, thank you so much for joining us today. Come back soon. Of course. I raise my figgy port to you, Mel. No better train passenger for an apocalypse on Lamentous One or otherwise than Rob Mahoney. That was such fun. And it's time for some more fun right now.

Please stay with us for my chat with Loki creator and head writer Michael Waldron. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more.

Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and Company coffee creamers. Howdy take your coffee, piping hot, ice, strong, frothy. But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious, flavor in every sip, try two good and company creamers. They're made with farm fresh cream and real milk. Each serving has just three grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers. Two good creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted vanilla and lavender. So which one are you trying first?

Find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. What an absolute treat, a joy and honor, a privilege, a delight. It is to have to have. have here today on the ringerverse, Loki head writer and creator and the biggest wrestling fan you know, Michael Waldron. Michael, welcome. Hey, I'm thrilled to be. This is the best. I'm so happy to be here. I'm such a fan of you guys. Very kind. Should we spend the entire next half hour talking about what you love about the ringer? Just abandoned my questions entirely. Yeah, look, David Shoemaker, best wrestling writer in the world. Mass man. Yeah, the mass man. I mean, yeah. Yeah, I can do it. Let's go.

He's the best. I have always thought of David as R. Mobius, in a way. So that transitions nicely into the first thing I wanted to ask you about, because I absolutely adored episode three, as I have every episode so far, the season has been so exceptional. And I'm actually a bit awed by the boldness of sidelining Mobius for an entire episode given that,

just crackling splendor of the scenes between Owen Wilson's Mobius and Tom Hiddleston's Loki in the first two episodes. So did you know right away that you had something revelatory between those two? And if so, how hard was it to hit pause on that even for a week and even knowing that you were going to immediately establish something new and also mesmerizing between Loki and Sylvie? An episode like this was in my earliest pitches to Marvel to do at the midpoint to get stranded in an apocalypse, basically. A little bit of Armageddon meets before sunrise to draw on the classics. And so, you know, I, the great thing is, as we really worked in the first two episodes, Mobius came together as such. a fully formed character, which was exciting.

There wasn't much to go off of in the comics. Obviously, we knew we were going to be working with a Loki variant, who clearly has some beef with the TVA. There was actually much more there with Sylvie that we kind of knew. There was much more richness right out of the gate with that character. So it was probably more of a revelation to all of us. that we were having such a blast with Mobius and with his dynamic with Loki and everything. And, you know, I think that Mobius is so different from Loki, whereas Sylvie is quite literally a mirror.

And so that's why the two dynamics are just very interesting and hopefully very different. And it just felt like, you know, I mean, the first two episodes are great. I don't like getting comfortable watching television, at least not a six-episode big series like this. I want to keep the audience on their toes. And so, yeah, we took a swing here. Whether it is Mobius Loki or Sylvia Loki, some of my favorite parts of the season to date,

and I think many others probably share this feeling, have been just luxuriating in these long stretches of conversation and reflection. It makes me think of Tyrion Lannister's, a wise man once said the true history of the world, is the history of great conversation and elegant rooms line from Thrones. And Loki certainly seems like a character

who would quote himself and pass it off as philosophical wisdom, so I think it's pretty apt. The world building, though, is also elemental to the show, especially in the early episodes where you have to create the mooring and the bearings for the viewers.

You have to establish the TVA. You have to establish the sacred timeline. You have to establish how a variant can hide out in the apocalypse. And, of course, you were no stranger to time travel stories, having written for Rick and Morty, Penda famous time travel screenplay that landed you on the 2018 blacklist, Marvel's radar. So what was your goal with Loki in terms of finding that right calibration between those elements, between the world building and the mythology setting on the one hand. And basically the vibes, you know, the hang.

The world building, the mythology that was always going to be a part of a show like this, the science fiction of it all. It's a time travel show. I've yapped about this in a million interviews. But it's just because it's a time travel show, I think it required an extra amount of world building just to, to withstand the conversation, the weekly conversation. It's otherwise, because people got seven days between each episode to figure out what about it is stupid.

And so, so the world building was always going to be an element of it. I, just as a writer and as a, as a viewer, I love, I love dialogue. It's my favorite part of my job is writing dialogue and just writing conversations and everything. And I felt like that was what, in fact, could be the most subversive in a way thing about a Marvel TV show, was taking big blockbuster characters and big, in a big sense. cinematic scope, but because it's television doing that intimate TV thing, you know, where you've got characters just sitting in a room talking, figuring it out. And the challenge of can you, can you make that thrilling? And can you make that emotional and everything? And I also think

with a character like Loki, it's kind of what you want. He's words are his greatest weapon. That's A silver tongue. Yeah, that is his superpower. And so I think for anybody to face off against Loki, that's almost what you want to see them do. So it was a nice mixture of kind of what the show needed. And I think hopefully what I'm at least most comfortable doing as a writer. That's really interesting. And you have another one of those characters on your play now because you're, of course,

writing the script for the next Dr. Strange movie. and Stephen Strange is another character who's always quick with an insight and just as quick with a barb is protecting your reality douchebag line from Affinity War Remains. Just absolutely iconic, one of my all-time favorites. And then when you throw in Owen Wilson's Mobius, Sophia DiMartino, just incredible, as Sylvia already, like, fitting right into that dynamic and that rapport, are there other, I'm curious hearing you say that, like, are there other Marvel characters, MCU characters to this point, neither already established or yet to come, who feel like they would be the right fit for your

style as a writer in that respect? Tony Stark was a great, you know, that was a guy who loved running his mouth. That would have been fun to write some of those bars. Ultron, my fault. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think the great thing about the MCU is they figure out, you know, it's not necessarily saying a bunch, but they've been each character, every movie sort of figures out the right way for them to express themselves in a way that's really compelling. And so, but yeah, I don't know.

I guess, I guess Tony, Tony and Loki are more alike than either of them probably would have ever cared to admit. I love it. Will we get a variant, Tony? I'm not giving up hope. I'm holding out hope. Holding out hope for a hero and holding out hope for a variant Tony star. We have three episodes left. Literally anything I say is already a tweet. A nexus event here. It's going to cut out, yeah. All right, I'll ask the next question before we read Lyme. You mentioned before sunrise, and that was one of the things I wanted to ask you about.

Speaking about vibes, you have shared a lot of the influences that shape your work from Madman to Blade Runner. and I was particularly delighted. I've mentioned this a couple times already on the pod this season, but I was particularly delighted when you were on Still Watching with Joanna, friend of the pod, who was the best,

to hear you mention before sunrise as one of your primary influences for the show because that movie and that trilogy is such a stunning examination of human connection and longing and awakening and choice and consequence. So many of the things,

themes that are central to Loki so far. And episode three really felt like the before sunrise episode to me, and I am certain I'm not alone in thinking that. The train ride in particular, of course, but also the walks, the conversations, the moments of sincere introspection that arise organically from asking someone else about their life and their desire and then reflecting on your own. The true surprise that can come from finding that spark in whatever form it takes. and then letting yourself follow it or wondering what it means if you don't. I was like waiting for a record store scene

the entire time and I would have loved it. I won't give up hope. So two questions here. Was this in fact the before sunrise episode as it seemed? And second, if so, should we be looking for other influences like referential oras, if not temporal oras, to be mapped that fully onto the idea

identity of individual episodes. Like what pop culture totem should we be watching for the rest of the way? I think it's fair to say that this one had a heavy before sunrise influence in the sense that it's two characters drawn together and establishing a connection over the course of an adventure that they go on. and starting out as strangers. And by the end of it, through circumstance, through deceit, through honesty, through arguments,

through truths, empathy, whatever, coming to kind of a messy understanding. I mean, it's just the forming of a friendship in a lot of ways. And just connection. That's the thing that was so compelling to me about Loki was he was a character really absent any meaningful connection. You know, clearly Thor meant a lot to him, but how much did Loki really mean to Thor? Like, you know, he had his relationship with his mother, but maybe that was it. Maybe that was the one thing.

And so in this show, to put him in situations where he can make friends and establish relationships with people was just really interesting. So I think, yeah, this one had a heavy before sunrise vibe. I think you could also say that 102, episode two with Loki and Mobius, you know, had that sort of feeling too, two characters walking through time talking, getting to know each other. You know, that's link later. If I'm going to rip off anybody,

it's always probably going to be him. Because it's just great honest dialogue. So, yeah. And will there, will there be any more, like, direct one-to-one comps? I don't know. You have to wait and see. You guys will figure it out, though, if there are. If anybody will figure it out, it will you guys.

I love it. The train ride that we just mentioned between, Loki and Sylvie featured a milestone moment, Loki confirming that he's bisexual. This has been Loki's Comics canon. Now it is Loki's MCU canon as well. Kate Heron, Loki director, tweeted after the episode about how meaningful this was saying, quote,

from the moment I joined, Loki, it was very important to me and my goal to acknowledge Loki was bisexual. It is part of who he is and who I am too. I know this is a small step, but I'm happy. The heart is so full to say that this is now, canon in the MCU. How important was it to everyone making this show to incorporate Loki's canonical queerness into the MCU? And how can fans for whom this means so much expect to see this manifest on the screen moving forward? It was hugely important. I mean, it was one of the first

things we talked about in the writers room was that this was a thing we wanted to approach and be honest about and and handle it in a way that was was hopefully elegant, but also affirming. And so it was, it was very, very important to me, to the whole writer, the writing staff, to the producers, certainly Kate when she came on, she had a great perspective and helping shape how that moment came together. And we worked on it and refined it in the script. and it came together, you know, I hope naturally. I hope it felt like a natural bit of truth coming out. And to have seen the response and to have seen how much it meant to people is amazing.

That makes me so happy. And I'm glad that folks feel that representation and feel seen and everything and a character that so many people really love so much. But that's the whole team. Everybody knew that's a big deal. And everybody, you know, took that responsibility very seriously. That was awesome. And yeah, I mean, how will that manifest moving forward?

You know, I don't tune in. One of the great joys of the Loki season so far, but more broadly, the Disney Plus Marvel experience. And I would say also the Disney Plus Star Wars experience for all the Star Wars fans out there. I got Grogu behind me right over there. Connects to a lot of what we have already talked about today, which is the amount of time that we get to spend on with the characters.

You know, time passes differently on Disney Plus, Moabius might say. You just made Loki. You wrote the script for the second, Dr. Strange film in the Multiverse of Madness. I can't wait to be back with the Darkhold and Wanda. You're writing a Star Wars movie. Not too, not too shabby. side of the MCU. You were getting that at this earlier, but I'm really curious about this.

What is the biggest distinction, but also the biggest opportunity that each platform affords when you're comparing making a TV show and making a movie inside of the same fictional universe? That's a great question. I think obviously television, just because there's more time, there is now the opportunity to introduce new characters in a way where, I guess, it's more than just a one-off scene, a one-off cameo in a movie, and then you've got to wait two years to see them again.

So that's really exciting. It's like Miss Marvel, you're going to get that character introduced in a series, which is amazing, and then see how she crosses over into the movies and everything. And then on the flip side of that, taking characters that exist in the feature space and going deeper on their stories, again, because we have more time. You know, look at the three series that have been out, you know, really excavating just the personalities of the title characters of the Wanda Vision, Falcon Winter Soldier, and Loki. So that's awesome. And then I think that in turn enhances the feature space because then when those characters show back up, you're carrying

six hours or whatever investment into there. I mean, it's really, I don't think there's a comp for it. It's, it is, you know, it's an expansion of the cinematic universe. And I mean, and I think movies, movies are always going to be movies, you know, they're, they're, they're the big, exciting, you know, adventure events and everything. And but I think, too, what you're seeing is the MCU is, the chances that they're willing to take in the TV space will continue to be reflected on the feature side, you know, doing, making more, even more interesting choices and going even deeper on characters and everything and work.

working with an even broader, more diverse range of collaborators. So I don't know. I think both things inform the other. And it's a cool thing to just be in the center of and just be like, holy shit, I can't believe this works, but it does. Before Loki even started, before the season of TV even started, I think it was the show I was looking forward to the most. And one of the reasons is because just love Loki, right?

And have spent so many years and so much time. with Loki. He was great. What a, what a character. I loved the, the, the, the opportunity to leave this arc, whether you want to call it a redemption arc or not, but the arc that we saw through to the moment of his death in the infinity saga intact, while also allowing us to return to these moments with this character who is endlessly fascinating and who specifically continues to compel and intrigue us because of the evolution, whether that is through relationships with other characters or through attempting to understand something about himself better. And so I want to ask you about wrestling on this front. Hang with me for a second here.

You're a massive wrestling fan, as noted, shouts to David Shoemaker once again. This means almost definitionally that heel turns have been a, foundational part of your life, right? And you created the impending stars show, heels. Yeah, this is the half. Yeah, there we go. I mean, it's always always always be plugging. I love it.

Shout out to my dude, Stephen Amel, now and always. I find the wrestling fandom, particularly fascinating to think about through the Loki lens. And I'm curious how you view it. are heel turns and face turns ever present for Loki, the character, the 2012, fresh out of the Battle of New York variant version, our original Infinity saga version, and in this Loki show, or are they actually in a way antithetical for the character and in a world so often defined by not an extreme on a spectrum, but moral ambiguity?

an eternal evolution. Like Loki himself said, you know, no one bad is ever truly bad and no one good is ever truly good. And, you know, again, you're making a Star Wars movie. Like only Sith deal in absolutes, right? That's one of the things Obi-1 taught us. So I'm curious how you think about heel turns through the Loki lens. Well, I think that I think part of the appeal, the enduring appeal of wrestling and certainly

the appeal to me, the appeal of it to me as a kid, probably the same thing that appeals to so many people like comic books and everything is actually such defined heroes and villains the good guys are truly good the bad guys are purely bad obviously wrestling's been pushed and you know it's like in the attitude era stone cold is like anti-hero cm punk did that some and everything but generally yeah it's kind of like good and evil. I think that Loki, yeah, he would say that's a childish way

of looking at things. His attitude would probably be, you're a face one second, you're a heel of the next, what suits my purposes. What I'm interested in, though, is when he's alone in his quietest moments, you know, is when he actually has to place himself on that, on that spectrum of good versus evil,

what is, what is he think? You know, he says, he says to Mobius, I'm a villain. Right. Mobius says that's not how I see it. Yeah. And that, that was a, that was a really damning bit of self-reflection that we'd never seen out of this character. Maybe we'd seen him do good things and come, you know, Han Solo is way back to help his brother and everything. But he never necessarily admitted, oh, I messed up. I'm a bad. This is all a cruel, elaborate trick designed by the week, conjured by the weak to inspire fear. So I think, I think that's interesting. That's interesting to, you know, it's just the like, I can play both, but who am I really? And that's what, that's maybe what the TVA is forcing him to reckon with.

I love that. I loved that scene, the way he gestured at himself when he said weak. And, you know, I've always loved the way that, and I've loved the way has manifested in the show, Loki's need for power and his ploys for power are so entwined with his need for affirmation and the connection that escapes him in so many other aspects of his life or that he feels maybe are not unfolding for him the way they are for people around him who he is jealous of. like Thor, for example. It was really cool to see him reflect in that way. And you mentioned earlier in our conversation that the vision for Sylvie was actually quite fully formed at the jump. Are these going to be, to the extent that you can comment on this at this point, obviously,

are these going to be parallel tracks of introspection and reflection where we are watching both of these characters experience and undertake that journey of personal growth. And in general, how have you thought about that, that again, balance is really a theme of this conversation when you're introducing those new characters and the time, despite having more time on TV than you do in a movie, is still finite to allow the audience to connect and invest.

We want to invest in this other character. And I think episode three did, again, marvelous job of doing that with Sylvie for the V. viewers. How do you maintain both of those, both of those timelines on your sacred timeline at once? You got to, you can need a time twisters. You know, Sylvie is a, they are variants of the, of the same being, but they've lived very different lives. It's an interesting thing to explore. We're the same person, but we've lived so differently. What, so, so, so. in our interactions with one another, how does that manifest?

What are the explicit differences? What are the surprising connections between us? Because we are the same person, ultimately. And then, you know, as to how do you balance all that? That's the trick, isn't it? And it's, you just, that's, that's where having a great writing staff, great producers and a great director. You know, it's just a great director. A lot of collaborators figure out, okay, we've got all these amazing ingredients. You know, we know where we want to take

this thing when it's all said and done. So how do we set it all on a collision course? I suspect a lot of people listening right now are thinking, is Sylvie really a variant? and are we going to get an ultimate enchantress comic book reveal or whatever the specific theory of the moment might be because that is in many ways inherent to watching these shows and talking about them over seven days between episodes. And I want to ask you not about any specific theory, but about theory culture more broadly.

You know, you're on Twitter, you're on Instagram. You told Joanna that you pitched Loki in part by touting its gif and meme potential. I loved. I'm online. Yeah. How much are you paying attention to? How aware are you of the slew of fan theories that are popping up each week? And how, you know, were you aware of this while you guys were making the show?

Like, how central that aspect of consumption was going to be to the Marvel TV experience more broadly. Because, of course, theorizing has always been a part of consuming the MCU. Like, that's not new, but I do think it has reached a fever pitch with Wanda Vision and Falcon and, you know, Mando for Star Wars? Like, what is your relationship to the theorizing as you watch it unfold in real time? I mean, I love it. I, you know, whether that's a healthy or a toxic thing that I try to pay attention to it, I don't know, remains to be seen. I think it's great. I mean, that means people should take the time.

to try and figure out how something's going to go and post about it in a community, then you care. You're invested to some degree. That's what you want. Some of the ideas are amazing. You know, and it's like, it's like, I love that what we're doing is lighting sparks of creativity among people all over. I'm not surprised, and I was very aware of this and talked about it with our writers in the room.

I was a huge Lost fan. Sam. Yeah, and I remember being on the internet when Lost was coming out and reading the Jeff Jensen. Oh, my God, Doc Jensen, the best. On EW and Entertainment Weekly. Those were so good. That's part of the thrill of it. So I just feel fortunate to have been a part of a show that's generating that kind of reaction.

That's awesome. If everybody thinks we shit the bed at the end of it, I don't know what you ask. Ask me in a couple of years. Yeah, well, you reserve the right to update your stance at any point, certainly. But that's really cool to hear. I mean, I think a lot of fans feel the same way. And obviously, like, mileage may vary for each individual person on the response to a given theory bearing fruit or not, but like, I don't know, for me personally, I think that

the fact that Quicksilver was our dude Ralph Boner and not like Mephisto or an official path to onboarding the X-Men is like great because we all still spent numerous weeks talking about that together. And I think that one of the great gifts really that these stories provide is the way that they foster that community for us. And, you know, especially with the themes that are at the heart of Loki, it's been kind of like a meta experience to see the characters having these existential and philosophical

conversations about life and connection that I think are at the heart of so much of the fandom, too. So I... Well, that's part of like... That's why I'm so glad the episodes release weekly, because it is each episode gets to stand on its own, you know, and whether

you like it or whether you don't. you know, your theories, you get to theorize based on each episode and, you know, and build on the, however many episodes came before it. And you're never going to, you're never going to satisfy everybody. And honestly, people might always have an idea in their head that maybe is better than what you can ultimately, it's like, it's like, I think Don said to Peggy or some point in Madman, there's always a better idea. I think they said that in Mad Men,

or I might have just imagined that to justify always saying that to myself. Anyways, I don't know. I think it's great, and you're making a marble thing. Like, it's, that's, you know, I certainly knew, you know, people, it just means people care.

And that's, that's cool. Plenty of carousel potential here in Loki, I think. Yeah, there you go. There you go. You know, talking about theories, Many of the fan theories right now hinge on things like King and potential ties between this show and future MCU films like Quantum Mania or Multiverse of Madness

that, you know, as the names of those movies indicate, would seem to center in some way on time, timelines, things having gone, generally speaking, a way that Miss Minutes would not support. Many of the core themes, such as free will versus destiny, make us think not just about the future, but also about all that's come before,

about what the implications of those thematic examinations mean for the characters that we have such a deep attachment to already, the Avengers, and of course, Loki. So I'm once again curious about that idea of balance. When you're making Loki, how do you bridge seeking to make something that is just magnificent in its own right with also needing to account for all of the established story that brought us to this point and all of the ensuing story in phase four and beyond,

some of which you will be directly responsible for, that is still to come. Like, are the past, present and future of the MCU really the three timekeepers? Probably so. Now, it's just three lizards with Kevin Biden. No, I mean, yes, you are making something certain. When you are making a show that is about time travel and predestination and all that, what you don't want to do is invalidate everything that came before you. At the same time, it's exciting to cast things in a different light and ask new questions about not just the future, but the past.

And so, you know, I think that you've got to keep that in mind. And you've got to, you've got to, you know, tread carefully with reverence for the stories that came before. I'm a huge fan. I love the MCU. But at the same time, be bold and not afraid, you know, the same approach that I at least tried to take, that we tried to take with each episode. like, all right, let's reshuffle the deck if we've got a chance, was kind of my approach with the whole series. Yeah, as I've said before, then, you know,

then it becomes somebody else's mess. And then sometimes that person is you. Is you. Or maybe a variant, you know? Yes, exactly. Hold that mirror up to yourself. Yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. Well, I know that we are out of time. You have been so generous with your time. This was absolutely wonderful. Please come back at some point. Standing invite. Anytime you want, whether it's to talk to us about Marvel or to David about wrestling, we're here in the meantime.

Enjoy the back half of the season. We can't wait. Enjoy as much figgy port and craps and nuts as you could get your hands on. Thank you so much, Michael. Thank you. And thank you guys. Thanks to the podcast for just hearing and talking so much about the show. You guys are great.

We love it. Well, friends, we're out of power and need a charge. So that's a wrap on today's episode. Thank you, as always, to our timekeepers, our intrepid producer, Steve Allman, as well as Mr. Minutes, Arjuna Ram Kapal, T.D. St. Matthew Daniel, and the entire production team for their help of this episode. Thank you, as always, to the Lord of the Memes, Jomea Dinner on for his work on the social for this episode. And a huge thank you to both Rob Mahoney and Loki, creator, Michael Waldron, for joining us today. What an absolute treat. Remember, follow the ring or verse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

follow us on social. Head back into the Ring Reverse on Monday for the Midnight Boys. Fast 9 talk. It's all about family, you know? I just can't wait to be with Han again. I'm so excited. Head back next Wednesday for their instant reaction to Loki episode four. I will be back next Friday.

Until then, remember, group podcasting is no substitute for diplomacy and guile.