The Ringer-Verse - 'Foundation' Season 2 Reactions

Episode Date: September 18, 2023

Ben Lindbergh is joined by Ringer staff writer Miles Surrey to share their thoughts on Season 2 of Apple TV+'s sci-fi drama 'Foundation.' They discuss the season's strong second half (2:45), some of the 'Game of Thrones' similarities, their favorite characters (27:00), and more. Then, they wrap up with a look ahead to a potential Season 3 (46:57). Hosts: Ben Lindbergh and Miles Surrey Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For decades, the Vietnam War has been a Hollywood obsession. Apocalypse Now, platoon, full metal jacket, first blood. These were blockbuster films, embraced by audiences and critics alike. And for decades, they've helped us understand a painful war and understand each other. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Brian Raftery. And this is Do We Get to Win this time, how Hollywood made the Vietnam War. Listen on the big picture feed. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. He knew we were doomed from the start. Just us against the long arm of history. Empire was never gonna let us live. But there was honor in the dying. And...

I got to shove day out of an airlock. Okay. A toast? For those who are toast, I know a better one. Here's to those who fight and ask why. And welcome into the ringer verse. to The Ringerverse, your nexus podcast feed for all things fandom, including as of this episode, Foundation Phantom.

I am Ben Minver, a senior editor for The Ringer. I'm joined by a man whose taste in TV is so similar to mine that we may be clones who are secretly controlled by a robot. My sci-fi brother, Ringer staff writer, Miles Surrey. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me, Brother Ben. I feel like you're the brother day in this scenario and I'm gone. I feel like I follow your lead.

I think. Yeah. I was going to say like the dawn to my desk, but I'm not that much older than you. I didn't want to elevate myself today. It seemed like that might be a bit self-aggrandizing to declare myself day. But if you want to do it, I guess I have no choice but to accept. So thank you. I'm happy to compare you to Lee Pace. Yeah. It's a fitting comparison in every respect. We're here to talk about Lee Pace's glorious glistening physique. and also Jared Harris's wig in his young Harry Seldon flashback scenes. And if we have any time left over after that, we'll also get into some other aspects of Foundation Season 2, which concluded its 10 episode run on Apple TV Plus last week.

Fair warning, we will be discussing everything that happened this season. So this is a spoiler zone. No book spoilers, but plenty of TV series spoilers. Though really, if you've studied your psycho history, you should have known what was going to happen anyway. I've been a foundation fan for a long time, and Miles, we've both been in on this series since the start. This was a real humdinger of a second half of a season, right? If you go to the IMDP user ratings, let's say, which are flawed in certain ways. But if we just compare like to like and compare the reviews for the latest episodes to the earliest ones,

episodes eight, nine, and ten, not in that order are just head and shoulders above every previous foundation episode, which I don't feel like is wrong, right? Like, this was a really good show in season one, which you somehow snuck onto the ringer's top 10 shows of 2021. Thank you to our former colleague Alison Herman for allowing that. But it still feels like this show leveled up in season two, especially the second half of season two. Did you feel that way too?

Yeah, I totally agree. In fact, I was actually texting Allison like, months ago when I started Foundation season two. And she wasn't too thrilled that I put it on our top 10 list. It's a shared byline. So, you know, she, you know, it's a democracy. But, you know, I mentioned her. I was like, I think the back half of this season

is just lights out. But, and let me know if you agree here. I feel like the challenge with the show is that it's sort of like caught between being like a regular series and an anthology series. And so at the start of every season, it's like, you know, you're introduced to this new cast of characters. in addition to like the Lee Paces and the Jared Harris's who just keep showing up.

And I think the challenge is, it takes a little while to get invested in new characters. Like at the start of the season, I was like, I'm not really sure about this Polly, you know, followers of Selden storyline. But by the end of it, I was hooked. And same with Hober Malo and General Rios. And honestly, by the end of the season, I was a bit more gripped by the storylines that were only contained the season two and less so like Gail Dornick, you know, sleeping

her way into like 150 years in the future. I was honestly a bit more invested in the individual storylines of the season that aren't going to continue in season three if it does happen. And I think that can be a blessing and a curse for the show because it's a good sign that it can get us emotionally invested in these characters they just introduced, but then the challenges, can you guys keep doing it?

You're going to basically, you're going to have to do this, you know, for every season that the show exists, is introduce all these. characters and they go care about them again. Yeah, completely agree. It's sort of a unique, structure, certainly an unusual structure for a series. And I felt the same way that this season especially, I think it kind of clicked for me in episode six, I guess. So the back half really took off and revved up and didn't really let up from there. And I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy the first half of the season. This isn't like, yeah, you just got to grit and bear it. You got to just get through it.

and it'll be worth it in the end, but it definitely takes flight, right, as the season goes on. And as you said, and David S. Goyer, the creator and showrunner, he's said the same thing about foundation, that it's sort of a blend between a serialized series and an anthology series. And because you have these massive time jumps and at least half a new cast every season, it takes some time to establish itself. And maybe one of the things we can talk about is whether that has to be true, whether there's any way to fast forward. that acclamation so that the season could start cooking a little sooner. But I definitely felt that. And I felt that to some extent in season one, too, that midway through it felt like,

okay, everything's clicking. This is firing on all cylinders. They know what story they want to tell. I'm invested in these characters now. And particularly these last three episodes of season two just kept topping themselves. I guess up to the finale, we could talk about just big picture what you thought of. the finale because on paper a lot happened here, right? I mean, Salverharden dead, right? Big shock. Maybe less of a shock, but still somewhat affecting. Obviously, Bell dies and Hober dies, right?

So a lot of main characters, both this season and throughout the run of the show, wiped off the board. We have Demerzel, has the prime radiant, right? And Brother Don escapes with Queen Sarah. Like a lot happened here, but I guess no fictional planets were harmed in the making of this episode. So in the wake of eight and nine, which were just so climactic and so eventful, I mean, we find out that the first foundation survived, right? Not on Terminus, which is broken up into little Alderon pieces, but in the vault, which is large enough to accommodate the whole population of the first foundation. So I wouldn't say the finale was a letdown, but just it feels slightly overshadowed by how much happened in the run up to it. Yeah, it kind of reminds me actually of like peak Game of Thrones. I feel like the penultimate episode.

Episode 9 was the one where all the action happened. And then episode 10, it's almost like you're in recovery mode. Yeah. And obviously, a lot still did happen in the finale. I mean, you mentioned, you know, the deaths of Hobre and Rios. I also like to give a shout out to Rios for shooting Brother Day. out in airlock. Granted, he can just be decanted in perpetuity,

but it was very satisfying seeing that specific Brother Day get his comeuppance. And I have to say, I really enjoyed that turn from Lee Pace as well. I feel like this version of Brother Day was the most impetuous, the most, honestly, the most punchable by far. And so it was just really, really satisfying

to see him get his. But yeah, in terms of the actual finale, I did enjoy it. I did think Salwar's death felt like, I don't know, it felt a little cheap to me, like, you know, the fact that like she just quite literally jumps in front of a bullet. I was like, you know, it's not that I'm against the show killing off characters because it sort of comes to the territory, especially when even if you don't kill off

character, they're not going to survive the next time jump unless they're in a cryopod. But I just feel like it was almost like a way for her to exit the story that was narratively convenient because, you know, it gives, uh, it gives, uh, it gives Gail, you know, the, at least the clarity of like what I'm seeing isn't necessarily the future. The future can be changed. And that does weave in nicely, I feel like to foundations underlying themes, which is sort of like how much can actually be determined by, you know, quote unquote psychos history and how much are just outliers and individuals just, you know, how much they can change the course history through things like love, fear. Um,

I think the show worked in that respect, but I do think, you know, if you're going to kill off characters, it should probably carry a bit more weight than just jumping in front of a bullet from like a random possessed child. I don't know. It just came off a little cheap to me, but I don't know how you can talk about that. I feel somewhat similarly. It was abrupt, which was good in the sense that it was unexpected. I didn't see this happening now, certainly season three.

I mean, a lot of the season was about the foreshadowing of Salver's death. Gail's visions of Salver's death. And so it wasn't shocking that she would be removed from this chess board. I keep saying the board because Goyer often describes the series as a thousand-year chess match between Harry Seldon or whatever Harry Seldon is now or Harry's Seldon and empire, right? And so Salver is wiped away from that. And it works in the sense that it fulfills the idea, the question of can we change the future, right? Which she takes this really well, by the way, as she's lying there bleeding out. She's like, actually, this is great news. You know, I admire

just the philosophical way that she accepted her impending death, you know? She's like, this is great. This means that we can change the future. You know, if I can die now, that means you can kill the mule, right? So isn't that great? But it's, it's tough because I think I've enjoyed that character in the portrayal of that character, but also that character is like, I guess a not, you know, comic relief certainly, but like a little lighter at times in the sense that Salver isn't a math head, right? And still has a great and kind of more personal relationship with Harry or more personable relationship because she wasn't really his disciple or acolyte in the same way that. that Gail was, right? So Salvers kind of like has her head on different things than Gail. It's a little less in the cloud. And I think I'm going to miss that aspect of her character. But Goyer said all along that he wants this to be a little bit Game of Thrones, right? And it has been all along with Harry in his original incarnation dying or Rish dying. You know, every end of the season, you're, you're going to sort of reset. So you expect some of that. but not so much with these characters who seemed like they're going to persist across seasons and give us some connective tissue. Yeah, I mean, I think one of probably the closest Game of Thrones comparison,

other than all the shocking deaths, is I think the political intrigue on Trantor reminds me so much of like the classic Barrist Little Finger exchanges in Game of Thrones the way that, you know, these characters, especially everything that's going on with Damerzal, how you know someone who is essentially a puppeteer controlling you know the puppets around her the genetic dynasty and then she herself is controlled essentially by like the ghost of the king and it's sort of interesting how that weaves into harry selden as well who is also i mean he has a physical form now but he's also basically just the ghost who keeps reappearing because why not it's charing harris the more the merrier.

But it's interesting that the show is essentially like, like you're saying, it's like a giant chessboard, but it's also like essentially a shadow war between like the spirit of an emperor who refuses to die and the spirit of a brilliant, although a little cocky mathematician who believes he alone can fix it with a little bit of help. And I'm curious to see also how that evolves,

whether that means, you know, assuming foundation gets, I believe Goyer says he has an eight-season roadmap for this. And I'm curious if that were the case, is Gil Dornick-along the whole ride. I mean, obviously, I think we can count only be Demazal because she is a immortal robot. And I think in terms of the characters who are going to be there for the long term, I think she's the most exciting in the sense that her arc is a bit more unpredictable. She's, I guess as the audience, we're a little more aware now of her journey to get to this point. But now that she has the

Prime Radiant in her hand. It feels like Selden is almost passing the chessboards onto her instead of Brother Day. Right. And I guess it's been in her hands all along, which is really what was revealed by this season. Before we get any deeper, let me open up the Prime Radiant in my hand and tell you what is coming on the Ringerverse feed the rest of this week with my psychohistoric predictions. As usual, we will have the breakdowns of Asoka on Wednesday, the Midnight Boys will do their instant on Friday, House of our will do the deep dive and I will be there as always for my lore look

and on Friday you can also catch me and Jessica Clemens on the Ring Reverse feed. We will be doing a button mash episode. We're going to focus on the new Mortal Kombat game and also do some previewing of Marvel Spider-Man too because Jess got a firsthand look and got to play a

little bit of it lately and we will discuss what she learned and what she saw. So back to foundation. I think what you were just saying there kind of touches on the structure of the season as a whole, and I guess the series as a whole, but especially this season, we kind of had these three threads set up that mirrored each other in a lot of ways. We had three people or three entities who are trying to be immortal with varying degrees of success and different methods, right? So you have the

heirs of Cleon, the genetic dynasty, self-perpetuating. You also have Harry, right, who shows up now in multiple forms. I guess really there were three Harry's this season because there's the physical reincarnated manifestation of Harry. And then there's Dr. Selden who's still in the vault. And as we learned, Dr. Selden also can go mobile and sort of split up that already split up consciousness and tag along with Brother Constant, let's say, to Tranter. and each of them has achieved some kind of immortality, right? But we also have the Mentallix. We have Tellem, who's the new adversary, the new Big Bad of the season, played by Rachel House,

who is great in comedy, but also very scary and evil and intimidating in the show. And Tellum is basically a cult leader who's gathered together these Mentolics, and as we've learned late in the season, has managed. to engineer a sort of immortality by just jumping from body to body and finding new hosts. And I guess you could link Demersel in there too, who of course is also immortal and it's also the ruler of the empire secretly. So all of these people are trying to last forever, trying to put some sort of stamp on the universe, trying to control the arc of history.

And yet they're also trapped by that situation in various ways, right? Dr. Selden is sort of stuck in the vault, more or less, although he can hitch a ride with others. We have Day and Dawn and Dust. The genetic dynasty is very constrained. And a lot of the season is day trying to break the bonds of that relationship. Demerzel, of course, is limited by her programming in an agonizing way. And then tell him, in the end, Tellum is not able to keep body jumping, right? And we also have their followers who in some cases we're close to and we follow.

And the question is, are these people we should be following? Do we want to follow these people? Are they benevolent gods or would be gods? Or do they care about us at all? Right? That's the constant question about psycho history. It's about predicting mass population changes and the vast sweep of history. And individual people sometimes seem or are insignificant.

So that keeps recurring this season, right? Yeah, I think it also becomes a challenge when, you know, whether someone is essentially desperate for immortality versus whether it's circumstances beyond their control. Like, I think if Lady Demerzal actually had some free will, I think she would even prefer death over this, you know, basically being a caretaker for the empire and perpetuity, you can just see it in her eyes every time she has to do something that's just a part of her programming, including killing brother Dusk and Roo. You can just see it in her face,

and it's a fantastic performance because it's like, you know, it's circumstances we have to control. And then on the other hand, you have someone like Tellam who is so desperate to keep living. Her ultimate fear is dying that she will just keep trying to like cling on to people, even if it's like essentially almost like a little parasite

and it's to a small child. And I think, I mean, there is no case where, you know, immortality works out for these characters. I think the purest sense of it is someone like Gail who's doing it for the betterment of humanity. But even in that circumstance, you know, she's lost her family. She essentially lost her planet in what was, you know, a climate change allegory.

And then she's also lost her daughter. And so basically, whatever track you take in the show towards immortality, there's a lot of, there's a tremendous personal cost. And I think the closest thing that the show has to like, like a guiding principle for like the protagonist is like, you're doing this out of a sense of duty, not out of a sense of self-preservation. Yeah. And they're all telling themselves to some extent that they're doing the right thing. Demerzel really has no choice, right? There's a lack of agency. Everyone feels somewhat trapped, even if Demersel is actually running empire behind the scenes. She's just as trapped as the Cleons are. And they're all telling

themselves this is going to be for the good of the galaxy, right? And Day, I think, probably believes that he's trying to arrest the decline of empire. Harry's trying to shorten the dark ages between empires. And the means that they choose to do this often comes down to kind of casting people aside, making examples of people. When Dr. Selden sends Polly and Brother Constant to Tranter, I don't think he's necessarily expecting them to come back, right? He maybe wants to make martyrs for the Selden religion. So all of these monarchs and gods, they to some degree treat their followers, their adherence

as disposable if they even think of them at all. Now, I think at the end of the season, of course, we have Dr. Selden's saving the people of the foundation. And Day is trying to blow them all up and not just them, but all of the planets allied with them. Right. So I'm not saying that there's no difference. I'm not totally trying to both sides, foundation and empire here.

But there's a kind of callousness, really, that is maybe necessary. I mean, that's sort of built into psychohistory. And a big part of the season, I think, is humanizing Harry, right? It's giving us a look at his backstory and his history. And his former partner, Yana, giving us some sense of what befell her, what's been motivating him. Did that work for you, both that and giving him a physical form again? As you said, more Jared Harris is a good thing. I'm not going to complain about whatever plot machinations you need to go through to give me more Jared Harris.

But do you feel closer to Harry? Do you care about this character or want to see this character more than you did before the flashbacks? Honestly, it is hard to separate my feelings about the character with Jared Harris. I mean, even when they put him in that garage tenure track wig in the flashbacks, I was still all for it, which, by the way, how old was he supposed to be? Because I think they were trying to make him younger, but it wasn't really doing any favors. No, I mean, significantly younger, probably, right? I wish Joanna were here for a wig watch segment because that was egregious.

Like, you and I, we've gotten a lot of mileage out of joking about, about young Dexter's wig on Dexter where they slapped a wig on Michael C. Hall and he was supposed to be teenage Dexter except he was not. He was just Michael C. Hall with a really terrible wig. Same deal here, which is perplexing because this is such a great-looking show

with incredible production values. And I'm not saying I expected or wanted some sort of AI de-aging deal here. In general, I'm fine with just acknowledging that we're all mortal and we age and we'll just go with it. But the wig, the wig was extremely like give Jamie and Claire some gray hairs on Outlander. They're 60 now or whatever, you know, or it's the opposite of that. Oh, he's got a blonde wig.

He's just a youngin now, right? He's fresh out of school. Yeah, definitely have a lot of notes about that, especially considering how well the rest of the show looks. I mean, special effects are top-nodge. The spacers look great, even though they're kind of weird in CGIed. So, yeah, need to invest in the wigs next season. But in terms of the emotional investment in Harry, I do think the show did a much better job this season of humanizing him

and also humanizing him over the course of the season because, you know, the first time that he emerges from the Prime Radiant when he escapes and Gail and Sauer trying to escape Gail's home. own planet. I mean, he's just full of rage and he's, and he's, you know, kind of indifferent to their circumstances. I mean, granted, his mind was trapped for like, God knows how long and he had a right to be pissed, but it's such like a, I mean, it's such an unpleasant way to reintroduce the character, especially because Sal Bor has seen him in a much different light, and she's just like, oh, this guy sucks. And so I do think that giving him that backstory, even though it was sort of like,

I think a little clunkily put in because it was right before he was presumed to have died. I think they could have probably done a better job with that, even perhaps introducing in the first season if they, you know, rejig things a little bit. But I do think that, you know, whether it's the Harry and the ball or the physical form of Harry, I think there's enough there that he can,

even if Gail is closer to the protagonist in the series, he's now become more of a mentor figure than like an indifferent god. And I think that's a good, trajectory for him because, you know, even though him and Brother Day are probably a lot more similar than they like to admit in terms of like their egos, I think it was important this season to realize that he's on the, you know, quote, but winning side and not just kind of indifferent to suffering in a way that, you know, especially with losing his son in the first season,

you know, it just seemed like, you know, the plan was so important that even his own family could be collateral and it didn't seem to bother him as much as it should. Yeah. Like you, I was initially drawn early this season more to Tranter and to the palace intrigue. And I really like the addition of Queen Sarith, right? And days attempt to disrupt the cycle, right? They all want to break the cycle. Like, because of the way this series works, we've now seen multiple dons and dusks and days. And they're sort of the same, but also different. They are distinct dawn and day and day. And they're. dusk and three more were decanted at the end of season two. So presumably we're going to meet a whole new cast if the show continues. But you see some cycles repeating themselves like Don, right? Don, I think like the young Cleon, who we got to see in some of the flashbacks with Demerzel, more of a hopeful idealist, right? Before he takes the reins of empire and gets hardened or before he gets hardened in order to take the reins of empire.

And so he's dreaming of a different day, right? He knows he's not going to be day in the way that the previous days have been because his brother is trying to undo the genetic dynasty and have a natural error. And again, I guess like the dawn of last season, he's sort of seduced sort of led astray by a young woman, which ends tragically for the dawn of season one. and ends seemingly happily for the dawn of season two, or at least as happily as anything can end,

or as much as anything can end, period, on the series that takes enormous time jumps. But between that and between the investigation of, like, the buddy cop comedy of Don and Dusk, not that this is a particularly funny laugh-a-minute show, but I enjoyed their sort of skulking around, trying to dig into the secret history of empire in the genetic dynasty and Demerzell. And of course, dusk digs too deep, as does Rue.

And they know too much. And Demerzell has to take them out. But the revelations about Demerzell here and the portrayal of Demerzell by Laura Buren, like just, I think, the highlight of the season for me. Demerzell's one of my favorite characters on TV right now. There's just so much complexity to that character and always wondering what is motivating Demerzel and how much of what we're seeing is an act and manipulation and how much is genuine emotion. Where do you come down on that? First of all, I agree. I think best character to show by a country mile and the reveal, like, I think it's the end of episode eight when they reveal that she is essentially empire. And to lead into the penultimate episode with that, it was just absolute goosebumps. And yeah. Oh, God, yeah, that whole lead-in with her being, also being trapped for centuries.

Five thousand years, yeah. Five thousand years just waiting for someone to show up. And then she gets like a moment of freedom where she could have escaped, but she chooses to trust someone who then puts her an indentured servitude. I mean, it's a crushing arc. And I do think that, you know, I don't know if you've revisited season one since that reveal, but, you know, I was thinking about, I believe, this the last time we see her in season one when she's repairing herself and then she just

rips off her face and just screams to avoid. That feels like one of those rare moments of authenticity that we actually have with her and just. Yeah, because she's alone in that moment, right? So there's no one to, yeah. And similarly, I think one of the most telling moments in the finale is just, and again, it's something where it's not so much her actions. It's just her expressions and especially her eyes. Like when Brother Don is escaping and sending her the final, message and basically saying you're the closest thing I had to a mother. Like I know you, you maybe use your program, but I know you love me in your own way. And you can just see that, that pain in her face, you know, the sort of that conflict between, you know, her wanting,

perhaps deep down a better life for this brother Don and wanting to escape versus her programming dictating like if there's a chance that I can track this guy down and kill him so I can decant a fresh one that I must. And I think that push pull is really compelling. Yeah. I, I I think she feels a fondness for Dawn or for the young Cleon airs more so than the later ones who just disappoint her over and over again, which I guess she partly blames herself for possibly because she's the one who's charged with raising them. But also she's been put in this impossible situation. But we see that she first meets the original Cleon when he's a young boy, right? And he just wants to hear her stories, which is, I think, the way that she tries to ensnare him, right? Like no one has come to see me in this room for hundreds and hundreds of years.

So I got to hook this kid or else I'm going to be stuck here forever. But also I think there's a genuine emotion there. And I think there is a moment when the older Cleon frees her, where she is free, she could kill him in that second. And she decides not to. I don't know if she genuinely loves him, but there's something akin to love, I think, there. And then when he betrays her and just enslaves her, essentially, I think that pain has just stuck with her through the centuries because she can't escape it. She can't forget anything. And when a young Don comes along, I think maybe she sees flashes of that young Cleon and she responds to that.

But then. Rupernude. Right. But then ultimately, inevitably, they turn into who Cleon turned into until at the end when she just dismisses day that says, you're a sperm. which is harsh, but she's seen the cycle repeat itself so many times. And she knows that there's no way to sort of break the wheel, right? I mean, I think she hopes to maybe one day down the road, we will see some way. But it's tough because, you know, they make such a cute couple Demerzel and Day, right? My favorite problematic lovers since Jamie and Searcy, I think, really, like among royal lovers who just like, there's something kind of

creepy about this relationship and the way they're related. But gosh, just a tad edible, just a little. Just a little. Yeah, there's something slightly off there. But I think Day really loves her and cares about her. And it's just this mixed up mixture of this is my mother, but also I'm sleeping with her. Right. But I don't know whether she feels the same for him.

I think she sympathizes more and connects more to the dons and the dusks. than the day. I think with day, she's kind of going along with it and humoring him to some extent. Whereas with him, it's all important. Like he's taking every every effort to try to reassure her, hey, I know I'm getting married here, but it's not going to change what we have. What we have is so special. And I love those scenes between Sarith and Demerzel where Sarith is just constantly pushing. You know, I spent the whole season just being on edge for Sarith and Rue. Like, you know, you are getting yourself into some deep shit here because you're not supposed to know these things. And Deverezell is not going to be okay with this. Yeah. I mean, I have to say, I think Rue up until the very end, had better survival instincts because Sarah was just all about poking the bear left and right. It's like, first of all, this person could just snap your neck at a second, would not be bothered by it in the slightest.

But yeah, I think it was interesting, too, because. With Brother Dusk, you know, it's sort of like, I think she does go around to caring about him again because the tragedy of someone who's at the end of their life is now he has all this experience. And I feel like ultimately he would probably be the best ruler of all because that experience would like probably avoid the impulse of like, let me destroy tournaments. I want to destroy every planet that the foundation has built. That's just a very like impulsive decision that was telegraphed even early in the season where Brother Day would have an outburst and she would be like,

oh, I thought this would last a minute and a half and you went well under a minute. Like, good job. You only had like a minor temper tantrum. And, you know, with Brother Dusk, it's like there isn't like that sense of panic. Like even when he's about to die, he's like, you know what? I know this is going to happen. It's inevitable. I accept it.

And even like plants the seed for brother, for brother, Don by, you know, putting the little smudge mark on her neck to show that she's a traitor. He's, I think this season really sold me on like, I want to see more brother dust because I think that experience of living a full life as an emperor and then essentially being relegated to mural duty. I think it's a very interesting art because that that wisdom is something that I think is very valuable in the show because, you know, he's immortal, but these are all individual Cleons. And the knowledge that they have is something that essentially can't be passed. down either because they're just clones. Yeah. So it's very self-contained in a way that's kind of tragic.

Yeah. I like all the portrayals of all the various life stages of the Cleon airs. It's hard to pick a favorite, but Leipace, look, he's a beautiful man, right? And I respect the way that Foundation's second season really leaned in to Leapace's beauty, not just. He's selling his body for the show. Yes, he is. And you know what?

No one minds, right? So look, one of these days, Mallory will get around to watching Foundation season two. She has seen the first season. And I know that people have been emailing Mal and Joe about covering this show. We're covering here today. So you can stop emailing them. But one day they will get around to it, I'm sure. And they will be pleased by really one of the first scenes in this season, which really like the marketing for this season, the trailer.

And right up in episode one, it's like, yeah, we're going to give you more just shirtless. and really like clotheslessly pace, you know, like we didn't get full frontal here, but we got like full sidel almost. And he makes the most of his physicality, not just in that way, but also in the sense that he's just such a magnetic mesmerizing presence. And there are times where you can't help but root for him. You know, there are these smaller moments where he seems like he understands that there's something. just preposterous about him and his position and he's almost self-deprecating when they're on the trip to terminus and he's just talking to Polly and Polly's like, you know, there's a saying violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. He's like, yeah, you know, that might be right.

There are times when he will acknowledge his frailties and his flaws and his failings. And yet then he will just snap his fingers and turn into commanding day mode, how dare you defy me. And then he's just a monster, right? So that portrayal and that character, I just can't take my eyes off him for multiple reasons. Yeah, I agree. I mean, well, first of all,

even though it can't compare to the naked fight in the first episode, the fact that he ends the season with, well, it's essentially like a very revealing chain mail. Yeah. I thought that was also a nice touch. They did it for the fans. In terms of his brother days, I also think it's interesting that, you know, the brother day that get this season is such a far cry, I feel like, from the first season, the one who basically experienced Harry Selden for the first time versus the one who admitted that he was like obsessed with the history of Harry Selden and to the extent that like he was scolded by Brother Desk of like, why are you so obsessed of this man who is essentially a ghost even though by the end of the season, he very much isn't. Yeah.

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And Ben Daniels, as Bel Rios gets to wear that chain mail too, after the switcheroo after the reversal. He's keeping it tight too. I believe he's almost 60 years old himself. But really? He's been working out as well. Yeah. I mean, it's not just the hard service on his labor planet early on, but he's been getting

his exercise. So I like that character too. I came to care about that character and Hober as these sort of reluctant servants of their respective overlords too, right? Hober's kind of your classic. space scoundrel. We meet him. He's running a con. That con comes back again at the end of the season and leads to Day's death and spacing. We get that beautiful shot of Day floating in space above the ruins of the planet that he destroyed. And we also get Bell just bringing that dignity to his

relationship with Glewin and also to his kind of principled opposition to Empire, trying to sort of stop the bleeding a little bit, sacrifice one planet to save several others, and then ultimately just having to defy him and getting to get some punches in. So it was fun to see them, fun to see them scrap and brawl. And you get the sense that day, like, he's just been so cloistered and protected. He's been in this aura his whole life. He just, he wants to feel something, you know, even if it's him getting punched in the face or knead in the balls. Like he just, he wants to draw blood. and have some blood drawn.

And Leipace is just such a long man. You know, he's like, he's very long. He's very just like the long torso. I don't know what it is. I don't want to get like too horny on Maine here about Leapace, but I think pretty much everyone is with me. So even though. I think foundations leaning into it.

Don't worry about that. Oh, definitely. Yes. So enjoyed really all of those aspects. And obviously like with the ship being named the. Rubicon. I mean, I know it's a meme now that men think about the Roman Empire all the time. Obviously, Isaac Asimov was, he's forcing all of us to do that, whatever we watch or read foundation. But then you had the betrayal from the spacers at the end, too, which is a big blow. Like, there are a lot of reveals in the

season, things that are going on behind the scenes that we don't recognize or they're happening out of order, you know, whether it's the spacer reveal where we think that there hasn't been a double Cross, but actually there has, or when it seems like the reincarnated, reanimated Harry is dead, but actually he's not. It's a ruse the whole time. So there are a lot of times when we're in the dark as well with the show. And I will admit to being a little bit confused at times about just the sequence of what is happening here. Wait, how did so and so get the prime radiant? Okay, wait, Salver has the prime radiant now. It's all there. Like they give you the breadcrumbs and they tell you what's happened. But there are certain times when you're juggling Harries and juggling Prime Radiance when I have to rewatch or I have to listen to the official pod hosted by our pal, Jason Concepcion, to sort of get a handle on what's happening here, which I can imagine that in addition to the time jumps and the new cast every season, probably a little tough for some viewers to handle, right? It's worth the investment. But it's not, I guess, the easiest, most immediate, immersive, transparent watch. Yeah, it can be a bit of a challenge, especially when there is a bit of misdirection. I think it didn't really click for me until I did my second rewatch that, you know, the whole Hobre Mallow incident is essentially kickstarted by Salvor, who's just trying to save Gail. So it's just like this chain reaction of events that couldn't have been predicted.

And, you know, the way it's laid out in the season is it's happening simultaneously versus, you know, the timelines are a little jumbled in reality. And so, yeah, it can be a bit challenging. I do wonder whether the show is better serviced as a binge or as a weekly release. Because, you know, as journalists who get screeners, we can watch it as we so choose. And I'm like you addicted to sci-fi. So I inhaled both seasons of foundation within a week, both times they were available. And so I do wonder if it's easier or harder to kind of let that information absorb for a week and then get back into it versus you're in the weeds.

you're watching them back to back. I think for something like Foundation, it may be similar to Game of Thrones. It's good to let it breathe a little between the weeks. You can discuss it with Monk's friends. You can go online, read some theories about where things are headed. I think that would actually be a lot more helpful than how we experience the show, blinded by elite pace and then, you know, consuming like eight hours at a time.

Yeah. Have you read any Asthma of or Red Foundation? I tried in high school and I couldn't get through it. I just don't think I had the patience at the time. My sci-fi needed a bit more flair. But I do know that it makes a lot of the show deviates quite a bit from the books in some ways. I will say from what I understand, the genetic dynasties, the creation of the show. And I actually think it's a brilliant way to illustrate the empire kind of stagnating and not evolving and does a good job of illustrating.

why this thing will eventually fail. And also, it's just great for the show to just have the same cast and, frankly, to just have Lee Pace around the whole time. It's a net good for us all. Yeah. I don't want to brag, but I got a lot of Asimov in high school. And I just was immersed in this series and the accompanying literature, the robot books and stories. And so it was sort of a thrill to see some of that be mentioned in the season just

through, say, the three laws of robotics finally surfacing, right? Or the design on Demersel's tool chest and the allusions to her coming from Earth millennia earlier or even like the atomic ashtray that's mentioned just sort of as fan service for book fans. But it is wildly different from the books. And that is for the best. You know, we've all seen adaptations where we care deeply about the source material and we're not on board with the changes that the creators of the show or the movie make. And I know that there are fans of Foundation who feel that way about Foundation the show and feel like this is an abomination or this may be a good show, but it's not Foundation. And I feel just completely differently about that. I mean, this was regarded as sort of an

unfilmable series for so long. And I think with good reason, just as written, it would have been in some ways outmoded, just in terms of who the characters are and the representings. of that, but also just structurally, just the time jumps, the fact that this was really an anthology and characters coming and going. And I just, I don't think anyone would have supported an adaptation that was extremely faithful with this kind of budget or that it could have been done in a compelling way. And really, all or most of the liberties that they take. Part of it is that I haven't revisited the books closely since high school. So I remember the broad strokes more so than the specific. So maybe that's why the deviations don't bother me. But also, I think they're so

smart. I think you've got to pull us in. Asimov's strength was definitely not character development and the personal side of those characters, as he and his daughter have acknowledged. Asimov himself acknowledged just how little physical action there was, right? And I just don't think it would have worked. And I think it works so well adding elements like the genetic dynasty and like time just a dilation and characters just being able to bridge these gulfs of time and space. And also just kind of conflating some of the events too. Like the Selden crisis in this season is really like the fourth Selden crisis in the books. But that's okay.

That's completely okay. It doesn't bother me the way that it would with some adaptations. I think they've done that so smartly that you can enjoy it whether or not you've read those books. And I'd say, don't be a stickler for faith. when it works this well. I'm with you there even as someone who didn't read books. I do think just knowing, you know, the bare bones of Asimus text, like the coherence of the show

is kind of a miracle into itself because the show by design is like you've written about for the ringer.com, a very good website. It's kind of unfilmable. So the fact that they were able to pull this together and make you emotionally invested in in a series that is fundamentally kind of indifferent to the emotions of individuals because it's essentially a giant chessboard. I think the writers deserve a lot of credit for being able to do that. And at least through two seasons and hopefully more, you know, being able to still recycle

that in the future, get us invested in season three with new characters, introduce this guy called The Mule, which I assume has no relation to the Clint Eastwood film. And maybe you can elaborate a bit about that because I do know that that is a bit of book for villain. And so maybe you can offer a little tease for foundation fans of what we might expect from the mule. Yeah, or just looking ahead to season three here. So the mule, which we get some teases, right? And the question, Goyers talked about this, that everywhere he pitched foundation was like, how soon can we get to the mule, right? The big bad. And that Apple was the only place that said, okay, you don't need to get to the mule till season two or three. He found a way to sort of sneak the

mule in the back door here just through Gail's visions. But at the end, we get the explicit tease where the mule is aware of Gail. He's seen Gail in the visions also. And so they each know they're coming, right? So we have the second foundation set up on Ignis here. We have the first foundation roving through space. We have the mule who's a mutant and a mentalic and sort of a chaotic, destabilizing force, which means that we may see some strange bedfellows in season three.

We may see the remnants of empire and the first and second foundation. It may be sort of an enemy of an enemy as my friend sort of situation, just allying against the mule. No spoilers here. I'm just completely speculating and going off things that have been said in interviews. But empire's in trouble here, right? Because not only do we have Don and Sarath jetting off having an air somewhere, but also they've lost the spacers. They've lost their fleet. So they're very constrained and where they can go. They can't just jump from Terminus to Tranter anymore. Not that there's anything left at Terminus,

but the foundation has that ability, has the whisper ship. So they very much have the upper hand at this point. And by the way, just to say, I enjoy the spacers, sort of a subplot, but kind of a weird sci-fi aspect of the season, which you and I like, because we're fans of a show, I guess, dearly departed at this point called Raised by Wolves, which was on NACS. RIP. And the spacers gave me sort of raised by wolves' mother and father vibes, right? So I like when things get a little weird, get a little sci-fi like that, right? And the portrayals throughout the season, really like even the little kid, Josiah, is great, right? Appropriately creepy.

Like everyone is pretty well-cast. So we have all those things building up to season three. and we have Demerzel having the prime radian. And it seems based on their conversation in the vault that Dr. Selden knows about Demersel's nature. We don't know how he knows yet. And we don't know why he gave her the prime radian. Do you have any theories about why he would want to do that or what the ramifications of that might be? I do have one theory.

And it's sort of what she alludes to at the end of the season when she's looking at the prime rating is, you know, she admits that she doesn't fully understand it yet, but she's, she's optimistic about what she's seeing. And I do wonder from her perspective, even though the end of the empire would be against her programming, if the math is sound and it shows her that the empire will eventually fall for her, that would mean freedom. So even if she can't actually act on it, she has the comfort of knowing, like, if I'm reading this correctly, if I understand to map, this will eventually end. And when it does, perhaps I'll actually be free.

And as has been implied, and I'm not sure this would happen for many seasons, but it's implied that Demerzal could help spawn other robots, so she wouldn't be the last for kind. And so that would be interesting if her freedom coincided with, you know, the dawn of a new, I guess, robot age for her. And maybe she'd want to go back to a safe haven, perhaps a planet called Earth. Yeah. I don't know. That's all I've got.

What do you think? Go back to where it all begin. Yeah, I think there's an aspect of that. Can she use the Prime Radiant to free herself? Can she use it to steer empire in such a way? Like, this season was largely about day being baited into this confrontation. You almost feel for him because he's trying to change history by doing something different from the past. You know, like when the sliver of Dr. Selden shows up and it's like, does anything ever,

change on Tranter. He's trying desperately to change things. He's trying to undo the whole genetic dynasty. And when he's talking to Selden, he's almost like, what more do I have to do here? Like, I'm changing up everything. Isn't this enough? But in a way, he's playing right into the plan. And Selden has baited him into this confrontation that weakens empire, perhaps hastens its fall. And then hastens, hopefully the regrowth and rebirth that comes after that. With the prime radiance, I guess there's also the aspect of you have the multiple prime radiance, which are sort of the same prime radiant that have kind of a quantum connection. So if you have one, then you can eavesdrop or communicate with whoever has the other.

So there may be sort of a surveillance aspect to it as well. But yeah, there's a lot that we don't know here. And I hope that we get to know it. Because as you said, Goyer has this ambitious eight season planned. that's what he sold Apple on. And right now, it's not entirely clear that the show is going to get a third season. I'd like to think that it would. He said some semi-optimistic sounding things about getting a green light, but season two got green lit not long after season one started airing.

And here we are after the season two finale. And there's no news about whether we're going to get more foundation. So it is sort of twisting in the wind. And you just have to wonder with a show, we don't know the budget. it, but it's got to be big because the show looks incredible. And with the uncertainty surrounding the strikes, you just never know at this point. And it would be a huge shame if a story, this sweeping and epic, were cut off when really it's just getting started. It would be a shame, especially if it's circumstances outside of the show's control and, you know,

if Apple's trying to cut costs because of a, you know, a labor strike, I can't imagine, you know, maybe the most, I mean, I'm just speculating, but just based on production value, it just seems like the most expensive show they have in their, in their libraries. So I would imagine that would make sense from like a fiscal point of view. However, I'm trying to remain optimistic because we've seen this before where a very beloved, very expensive sci-fi show called The Expans was axed by sci-fi and it was eventually revived on Amazon Prime. I'm not saying that like, you know, foundation will find a new home on Netflix or whatever. But, you know, sci-fi fandoms can be very, very passionate and very creative in terms of wanting to keep their shows alive.

So I don't know if that means we're going to have like some Harry Seldon, you know, obelisk show up somewhere in the world as part of a promotional campaign to save foundation. But I'm trying to remain cautiously optimistic that if not Apple coming to their senses, you know, the fandom can try to try to keep the spark alive and keep the foundation going for another, you know, another century. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's fascinating Apple. I wrote about Apple recently just because it's so hard to tell how they make these decisions.

They've had a great hit rate, not just with sci-fi, although certainly with sci-fi, but they've broadened and had so many shows that, at least in terms of critical quality and acclaim or even popular IMDB user ratings, they're ahead of every other streaming service since they launched in terms of just the good stuff on that platform, the hit rate, right, even though they haven't been as prolific as some other streaming services, but they just do not have as big a built-in audience from what we can tell. They don't really share data on that, but based on shows appearing on the charts and the Nielsen ratings,

back when you ranked it as one of the top 10 shows of 2021, you said Foundation has all the makings of television's next great mega hit. I wouldn't say it's a mega hit, right? Not yet. It's for Apple, I think, a hit, but Apple hasn't really had a mega hit other than Ted Lassow. And to some extent, hijack was appearing on some charts lately. But it's really relative to Apple.

It's a success more so than in the larger TV ecosystem. And Apple is a trillion-dollar company, and they could continue to fund this as long as they want to. But at some point, will they decide, actually, we don't want to do this. We don't think this is a worthwhile loss leader. they did recently ax Sam Smael's Metropolis series. So even at Apple, there may be some signs of belt tightening. So I certainly hope that Foundation is not a casualty of that because we've got another big time jump.

We've got an adversary set up. We've got potentially more carryover characters than we've had in the past, despite a lot of characters meeting their ends in this finale and in this season. And if you thought those few year time jumps on House the Dragon were jarring, well, try 150 years. But because we have Harry and Gail in Cryosleep, because we know who the mule is, which I hope would help season three ramp up more quickly than the first two seasons did. There's just a little less set up to do. And apparently the season is already written. So there's just a lot to look forward to. And they clearly have a plan.

And they've mapped out so many things and dropped so many little teases that it would be a big bummer if we didn't get to see this show really get a chance to bring this epic tale to fruition. I agree. I mean, another show I was just going to throw out there that came to mind with severance in terms of something that really captured the zeitgeist, which is another sci-fi series. And I think Apple would be smart to kind of hone in on what are the shows other than Tevaa. So that seemed to be really clicking with people. And I know that you and I are in a bit of a sci-fi bubble. We're both sci-fi nerds. We love to discuss our favorite sci-fi shows with our nerdy little communities. But I mean, honestly, like whether it's severance, silo. for All Mankind Foundation. I feel like Apple in general is doing great as a streaming service in terms of the quality of their programming, but they are probably the far and away, the go-to platform for really compelling, really, really well-written science fiction.

And I think it would be a shame for what might be just in terms of finance as their most expensive sci-fi show of all. It would be a shame if it came to an untimely end, not because the show wasn't, performing or because the show was getting bad reviews, but because there's like a labor stoppage that, you know, it's the ball's also in their court in a sense with that as well, but we don't have to get into that. But I am, like I said, I'm still cautiously optimistic that foundation can at the very least get a season three. I mean, eight seasons admittedly

with a story of the scale. That might be ambitious if we get even six, which was what the expanse got. Instead of covering all nine books, so it went to six seasons and had a nice and tidy ending. So, I mean, I'll take that. I think, I mean, anything less than, well, basically I just, I refuse to believe that we're done with Foundation after two seasons.

They've set up so many exciting possibilities going forward. I want to know what this mule guy's about. There's so much that's still on the chessboard, and it would be a shame if they cleared it this early. Yeah. in its structure and its scope and its sweep and its production values, it's really unlike anything else on TV right now. So even with it wrapping up for this season, there's still a lot to look forward to, I think, the rest of this year. Obviously, we have more Star Wars and Marvel

shows coming down and we have, say, Gen V, the boys spin-off. But there's some other, I think, lesser-known things that are airing now, lower profile that I've been enjoying or we've been enjoying that hopefully we'll have a chance to discuss on the ring of verse down the road. I'm into the Walking Dead Daryl Dixon right now. So maybe we'll get to do a Walking Dead pod at some point. We're deadheads to a degree. I've stuck it out a little longer than you and most people in the world have. But this is probably the freshest that that franchise has felt in a while, which is not saying so much.

I'm obviously enjoying Star Trek lower decks now, which is running through early November. invincible season two is coming in November. And for All Mankind, as you mentioned, season four, we're in the fan fam. We all say hi, Bob, to each other on Ring or Slack. We could not be more excited for All Mankind to return CERN as well. Is there anything else on your radar? I think you just about covered it, which for me was basically just in a giant chalkboard. It's just fam season four. That's the thing that's really occupying my mind this winter. Monarch Legacy of Monsters. Are you in for the Monsterverse. Okay, this is a true story. And it shows how bad I am at just reading press releases

accurately. I see the show. I see a press release for it months ago. And I'm like, oh, that's so cool that they have Carrie Russell and Kurt Russell's son in it. And it didn't occur to me until I saw the trailer for it. But actually, it is Kurt Russell. And my brain just automatically switched it to Carrie Russell is on this show. And I was like, I can't believe they're hiding her in the trailer. She's got to have a big, juicy. year old. I was like, oh, I see what it is. It's the father and son. The brother, the brother, Day and the brother, Don of the Russell clan in Monarch Legacy of Monsters. I'm excited for that, but I think if there was one show to stand above them all, it would be for All Mankind

season four just because I think you would agree. The first three seasons have knocked it out of the park. I believe they have a five-season roadmap in mind, so we're closer to the end of the beginning and I'm really excited to see the show expand not just narratively but quite literally in our solar system and I don't know I mean I think I think that show of all the Apple sci-fi shows is probably the best of them all and and I'm just so glad that it's that it's still kicking and long may continue through season five yeah hope we get a chance to talk about it but check it out November 10th and for now we've got to wrap up we could talk about Foundation forever, but we have concluded this podcast without any shocking surprise

deaths or visions of the future. We'll take a time jump for a couple days and we'll have a new episode for you. Stay tuned for Asoka coverage on the Ring of Versa and House of R and Buttonmash on Friday on Mortal Kombat and Spider-Man 2. So for now, thank you to Arjuna Ramq Pal for green lighting this episode. Wish he could green light a third season of Foundation, but I don't think he has that power. Thank you to Isaiah Blank, for producing this episode. And until next time, keep counting primes. And please respect and enjoy the piece.