The Ringer-Verse - Game Swap: Games We Missed | Button Mash

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

Ben and Jess are joined by Matt James to discuss 'The Last of Us Part II' and how soon is too soon for a remaster. They also discuss three recent indie games you may have missed, 'Cocoon,' 'Slay the Princess,' and 'Jusant' (15:38). Hosts: Ben Lindbergh and Jessica Clemons Guest: Matt James Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone. I'm Mallory Rubin and I am thrilled to tell you that House of our has a new podcast feed. Joanna Robinson and I will now be with you twice a week with more of the deep dives you've come to know and love on the ring of universe. In addition to exploring all of your favorite nerd culture new releases, we'll have nostalgic revisitations, hype meters, hall of fame inductions, tropes courses, drafts, and more. All bad babies are welcome as we dive into Star Wars, Marvel, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, and beyond. Follow the new House of Our feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimfaya, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. And welcome into the Ringerverse, your Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, a senior editor for The Ringer. And with me, as always, is my Button Nash co-host, Jessica Clemens, Jess. I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving and, of course, a fruitful Black Friday and Cyber Monday.

Oh, my God. I did. I bought headphones, a Roomba and a new Xbox controller. Oh, no, a new PlayStation control. I wanted the pink one. Okay. Did you get some good deals? Yeah, dude, the controllers were only like 40 bucks.

And I was like, this is a lot cheaper than I would normally buy it. The Roomba, I don't know, I think people hype up Roomba's too much. They don't actually. I'm going for a while. It works okay. I have to pick, okay, first off, the thing is kind of defeats the purpose. I have to pre-pick up the floor and then the Roomba can get started. But also the Roomba gets stuck under just chairs.

Yes. And, you know, I have better, I got better results with my Dyson. And I might keep it. way. It's probably better for humanity that our robot vacuums still get stuck on stuff, because when they get good, that means that our robot overlords have arrived, and that will spell the end of humanity. So I'm happy to see them bumping their hands against that thing. That's fine with me. Well, tis the season. I'm glad you indulged in the gamer holidays, the consumer capitalistic gamer holidays, and had some quality family time, too. We love our families. Sometimes families

are infectious. We've both been a bit under the weather, which is why you're getting this episode today. instead of a little earlier in the week. And I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving before you got sick. On podcast, it is important to be able to hear the hosts. So we wanted to wait until we were both audible and in fine voice to bring this pod to you today. And we also wanted to bring on someone who could help lighten the vocal load a little bit, share the wealth here. We're joined today by our friend and colleague Matt James, the ringer's deputy art lead,

and a man who has, as far as I can tell, played every video game released in 2023. Welcome, Matt. I don't know where you find the time. Hello, I'm a big loser, Ben. I'm so happy to be back. I also hate my robot vacuum. See? It's not just me.

It stresses me out, watching a robot do such a bad job at something. I stand up and I watch it. And it, again, defeats the purpose of what I bought it for. It should be doing it without me looking at it. Yeah. The newer ones learn things as they go, but I have an older model that learns nothing. So it just keeps literally banging its head against the wall over and over. I love it.

I'm okay with it. But as you're referring to, Matt, I mean, we all kind of get to be losers a little bit over holidays. And I don't mean to equate playing video games with being losers. We're all incredibly cool. Well, I do. But we've been busy playing great games all year. there's nothing like the post-holiday gaming binge, you know, if you're off from work or school and you don't have to do anything and nobody wants you to do anything and you can just retire to

your gaming cave and indulge, especially if it's, say, post-Christmas if you celebrate Christmas, if you just got a haul or if like Jess you got yourself some stuff for Black Friday or Cyber Monday, and then you get to just immerse yourself in whatever you just acquired. Those are the best gaming times of the year in my mind. Yeah, lots of old memories growing up from vacations and gaming all the way back to, you know, from elementary school. I think it's especially nice as a parent for me now because I was with my family and my wife's family, so we were surrounded by aunts and uncles and cousins and grandparents who all were vying for babysitting time with our daughter. It's just like free daycare. So sometimes while they were watching her, I could just stretch out on the couch and play some switch,

just guilt-free. It was great, but it doesn't last that long. And while we were having a peaceful and restful, if somewhat sick break, the video game world was still disturbed by the great debate of our times. How soon is too soon for a remaster? This eternal question was rekindled when Nottie Dog announced earlier this month that The Last of Us Part 2 remastered is coming out on PS5 in January, which will be about three and a half years after it originally came out for PS4 and look, we love The Last of Us and Nottie Dog makes great games

but it also repeatedly remakes and remasters those games. The original Last of Us has already been remastered and remade so when people saw this news a lot of them thought, here we go again. Just what was your reaction

and what's your stance on how suit is too soon? I'm not going to buy it. I'm not going to watch someone else play it. It's not old enough. But it also is like, Like, just don't make a habit out of it. I don't, it's, I don't know.

I can't, I feel bad because I'm like, to each their own. I'm not going to get furious about it, but I'm just, I just can tell you right now, I'm not going to buy it. It has not been that long unless you did something crazy to it, which still not old enough for me to care about it. So that's just my stance. I don't, yeah, I don't really have a dog in that fight. Yeah, I'm with you on the let people enjoy things, general attitude. but maybe it's not something that I plan to enjoy imminently.

What about you, Matt? Well, I think that I also don't, I think it's too soon to remake. I definitely think it's too soon to remake. But at the same time, I've got to say, I've enjoyed so many of the remakes

and remasters in the past few years. And as much as I keep talking trash on, oh, do you really need to make that, make something new? Like, I keep enjoying them. So, yeah. That's the thing, right? I assume that this will sell.

And if it does, that will mean there was a demand for it. The market approved. So I can't really fault it from a business standpoint. It's just a personal lack of interest, which is partly because I'm still recovering from playing The Last of Us Part 2 for the first time. Like that game is so- Maybe they'll change the ending, Ben. Yeah, right. Maybe it'll just be a lighthearted, happy-go-lucky romp this time.

But that game is just so grueling and emotionally draining that I'm not ready to revisit it, no matter how high the frame rate and resolution are. You better get ready. Get ready and play again. I need more time. I'm still coming to terms with that game. There's also a big difference in, you know, remaking or remastering a game from a long time ago

where you're, you know, completely redoing it and reimagining it for a new generation with new technology. And then just the graphics polish up, right? Like, obviously, Resident Evil 4 remake this year was incredible, but it really wasn't much new to do with the Resident Evil 4, whereas you know, you look at something like Final Fantasy 7 where they're completely redoing it, and the mechanics are different,

and now it's, I guess, three games that are going to take a decade and a half to release. So that, to me, is a little more acceptable than just a graphics update and some fine-tuning. Yeah, most games I wouldn't want to replay that quickly because there are just so many great games I haven't played for the first time, you know? but it really is kind of a case-by-case basis. Several years ago at The Ringer, I created something called the remake necessity score

in response to the news that they were remaking White Man Can't Jump. And I came up with a bunch of categories, like, how old is the original? How beloved and lucrative was the original? How dated does the original look? Is the remake doing something really different from the original? Like the Mean Girls remake,

becoming a musical, for instance. And I had a whole score system. And the verdict was that, no, we don't need a new white man can't jump. And that remake came out this spring and has a 26% on rotten tomatoes. Says you. I needed it. Did you really? What was wrong with the old one? Okay. I said, ooh, Jack Harlow. Can't wait. Ooh, perfect. Exactly what I want. No. No. Not really, right? So I think time bore out my judgment there. But you could do something similar for video game remakes or remasters. And you'd want to take into account some of the same factors.

Like, how long ago did it come out? How many console generations have passed? Is the original still playable? How does it hold up? Right? And The Last of Us remastered, you know, came out a year after The Last of Us. So in that sense, three and a half years is a long time by comparison. On the other hand, the remaster of The Last of Us was arguably more necessary because the

PS4 wasn't backward compatible with the PS3. So you kind of needed a new version. to be able to play it on the latest hardware, whereas you can already play The Last of Us Part 2 on PS5 with a higher frame rate and resolution that it had on the PS4 base system, right? So if it's about accessibility, you can play this game right now

and it'll look nice and pretty because it's not that old. Damn. I get my only irritation is that if it just continues to keep happening and games are like, oh, it's only this old, we'll just do it. And I'm like, no, don't do that. And that it's just don't, just don't do it.

That's what my irritation is because I also love The Last of Us. And I'm just like, and I think we just like got the news today that they had to push the last of us to because Pedro Pascal is so busy now. They're so in demand. And I'm like, great, this and now the game that's being remastered from nothing, like, I'm just like, I don't, I don't want this. Yeah. We will never see Pedro's face in the Mandalorian armor again, I fear. What if they remastered the last of us and made them look a little bit more like Pedro Pascal? Would that give people wanting to buy it?

That's also the thing is like, I'm not, I don't want to buy it. Yeah. I mean, in fairness to not a dog. It's not old. It's not old. Sorry, can go here. It's not just the same game. There are some new modes and skins and stuff.

Also, it only costs 10 bucks to upgrade if you own the PS4 version already. Although there are a lot of games on PC and. console, like The Witcher 3 and cyberpunk that have free remasters or next-gen upgrades, but you don't have to pay full price if you've already played this game and you own it. So that's something,

I guess, but even so. I also, I hear what you're saying, Ben, about, like, that's not necessarily a game you're like dying to experience again. You're not like, there are plenty of traumas in our lives that we're not looking to revisit in HD, you know?

Some people want to get chased by zombies. It's great. Yeah. It's already on HD. It's just in higher D now that it was. Although that game came out mid-pandemic, I guess, which was like extra depressing. So maybe now it'd be a little different, but probably not that different. I'd say it isn't for me, unless we're talking about a decades-old game that's completely reimagined, like Link's Awakening or Final Fantasy 7, as you said, Matt, it's rarely for me. But if you haven't had a PlayStation before or you just got into the Last of Us through the HBO show or The Last of Us Part 2 is just your favorite game ever and you're replaying it over and over anyway, then I guess I don't begrudge you that. I guess I'm happy for you

that you can play it in the best-looking possible incarnation. I think part of the frustration is that Nottie Dog hasn't released anything except remakes and remasters lately since this game came out the first time and it hasn't had any new IP since the first Last of Us came out. And meanwhile, the multiplayer Last of Us spin-off has stalled. So from the outside, at least, it looks like a creative rut, just kind of cashing in on existing games again and again instead of making something new. And remake and remaster are sort of squishy terms

that can mean different things at different times. But, you know, there's a big difference in how hard it is to fully remake a game versus just slapping a new coat of paint on it. So I don't know whether the resources devoted to revisiting The Last of Us over and over is actually what's stopping the studio from releasing originals, but it doesn't look great, right? Perhaps Call of Duty should have done a remaster rather than releasing a new game. I don't know.

They already just released all the old levels and everything, so they kind of did. But I think it touches on a larger frustration that so much culture is recycled now, right? Everything is reboots and remakes and sequels and prequels and spinoffs. There's just so much stuff released and so much of it takes a ton of time and money to make that publishers are looking for name recognition and cost certainty and guaranteed sales, so making something new can be risky, but if you just re-release a classic,

you can probably bank on decent sales on a shorter timeline. I mean, I get them trying to be safe with it. I guess, and this isn't the money-talking part of Jessica's heart. I don't agree with it, but I understand what they're doing, where they're like, yeah, we just do this and not make a new game entirely.

It saves, I guess, it saves their asses a little bit. They don't have to bet on too much. Yeah. Or if you're adding accessibility features or quality of life improvements or something. Okay. I get it. I'm happy for you. If you're excited for this, I'm excited for you.

We support you're playing the last of us. Yeah. Tell me how it is. Tell me how it is because I'm not buying it. I don't care how cheap it is. I might when season two of the show comes out and I'm prepping for that, right? Then I might want to replay and then I will want the best possible version. I wonder if it would be happening without the TV show.

success. I know. That's what I'm... I agree. I think so. I think so. They're cruelly capitalizing that or trying to make it a tie-in because they were teasing recently like, oh, these lost levels that are in these games in rudimentary form, like, there's going to be something from that in season two of the show. So get a sneak peek of season two by picking this up, right?

It's a corporate synergy at work. And it's working. That factions game might actually have come out if it weren't for the TV series being successful and then deciding to remaster part too. Perhaps. We'll never know. Well, that's another big AAA blockbuster to look forward to. And we've been on the big budget blockbuster beat for months now, one big game after another, which was great. But inevitably, when you have huge high profile releases all clustered together, some lower profile stuff slips through the cracks. So this happens with movies and TV2. Like Loki and GenVe and Invincible, we're all airing at roughly the same time. And that great

trio sucked up some of the oxygen that may have gone to, say, scavengers rain or Blue Eye Samurai, which were also great but got a little less attention. Go stream scavenger's rain on Max. Please, people, I need a second season. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur, before treatment, Get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiatoradio.com.

100 free events. 6,000 kids. One mission. Clinic Kids is using sports and evidence-based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience, and the tools they need. need for life's challenges and opportunities. Up through August 2026, they're running 100 free sessions for school and community-based organizations near you. Learn more at clinickids.com slash 100K. That's Clinic Kids is registered 501c3 nonprofit. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to close, that score high and both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers,

oh yeah, they have the perfect. I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the metapant That's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. We wanted to talk about a few indie games

that came out recently that you may have missed amid the AAA onslaught. These are not sequels. These are originals, fresh IP, and not just any fresh IP, not just any indies, but acclaimed games that you can play in four to five hours apiece. I played each of them over two days,

though you could certainly finish them in a single sitting if you have a durable butt, I guess, and if it's the holidays and you have some free time, is that roughly how long it took you guys too? Yeah. Didn't even need to use my durable butt, but, you know, regular butt games. Regular butt games, these are regular butt games. Yeah, I just sat there for like a day and I just kept playing.

Yeah, just a nice bite-sized experiences. So we have Jusant, which is a puzzle platforming game by the French developer, Don't Nod, which is best known for the Life as Strange games. We have Slay the Princess, which is a visual novel by Black Tabby Games, the makers of Scarlet Hollow, and Coon, which is probably the best known of the three, the only one nominated for Best Indy at the Game Awards. It's a puzzle adventure game developed by Geometric Interactive, published by Indy Darling's Anapurna Interactive, and it was directed by Yippa Carlson, who was the lead designer of a couple of classics, limbo, and inside. So it comes with some nice indie cred and pedigree. And as it happens, each of us had a different favorite of the three. So we can each make the case for the ones that we like the most and tell me why the one I liked the most was bad. Okay, Ben, I already told you a little bit, but I will get into it again.

And I think the thing is, the thing is, I am not coming from like my own bubble when it comes to not like this game. I played it with my roommate was there and our friend was there and we were all like, dude, this is, this is, I'm tired. I'm tired and because I'm bored. I won't spoil which one was. You guys can guess. I'll keep you in suspense as I give you the programming reminders. So if you're listening to this, on Friday when it dropped, then later today, House of Our

will have a House of Recommends episode letting you know what else to check out. If you're looking for more media, like some big TV shows and movies from this year, you can catch me on there too. And you can catch Jess on next Monday's Mint Edition, where she and Steve and Jomey will be handing out Animation Awards. Just as it's been a big year for video games, it's been a big year for animation. Yeah, it's huge.

Like you said, those other two, the other two that no one is watching because they're too busy watching Gen V. Yes, exactly. And Invincible, which is also animated. I didn't want to bring that one up. Something for everyone. So we also have a couple of button mash pods left this year. So on our next regularly scheduled episode,

we're going to talk about Avatar Frontiers of Pandora. Yes, there's an Avatar game coming out. And also, in preparation for our Game of the Year episode, we will catch up on some goody contenders that each of us missed. So over the next couple weeks, I'm going to play some Sea of Stars. I'm going to play some hi-fi rush. Dave the Diver, a Matt James and Steve Allman favorite.

And I'm finally, belatedly going to get into Balderskate 3. I know the last person on Earth. But I had to wait for a console version because, you know, console guy. That is a durable butt game. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're going to need that durable butt for that way. The time will go.

The time will fly. The time will fly. Your butt will numb. You won't even think about it. I hope so. And Jess, you're going to get it. get into Lies of P. Finally, I'll probably get into Mora, too, because I haven't started that one either.

Cool. I'm on everything. So we'll do our Goody debate in late December. None of this nominating games of the year with like two months left on the calendar. You know, what if Avatar is the best game of 2023? I highly doubt it, but you never know. It's not out yet. And then in January, I guess we'll have to do a hype draft to talk about what we're looking forward to in 2024.

hopefully the industry saves some good games for next year too. One wild card for this year to keep in mind, Rockstar is supposedly dropping a GTA-6 trailer at long last in early December, quote-unquote. So depending on when that comes out and what's in it, we may do an emergency instant reaction episode because we've waited long enough. So if that thing actually surfaces, then we will talk about it once they reveal that We'll have to wait like two more years for the actual game or something. But just seeing some footage that was not leaked by a hacker.

That would be fun and notable. So we will talk about it. So remember that you can email us at ringerverse gaming at gmail.com. If you want to give us your goody opinions or recommend anything that we should play. This has been a good year for Indies. When is it not a good year for Indies? But last year they were the headliners, not as much this year, just because there have been so many great AAA titles.

And I guess we'll go one by one here. Maybe we'll let our guests go first. Should we do that? Jess, if Matt, you want to make the case for your favorite of the three? Okay. Well, my favorite of the three is Cacoon. Cacoon is, yeah, it's not a Jess game because I know you're not a puzzle gamer. Yeah.

And this game, this game is a puzzle gamer's game. Oh, yeah. It is. I feel like they could teach this game in like game design school for the way the puzzles work and for how structured the puzzles are. It's a very unique puzzle system where you essentially are walking around a world. You can jump out of that world and carry the sort of globe of that world around with you and then perhaps jump out of another globe and go into.

other globes with the globes that you were in, and depending on which globe you're carrying, you have different abilities. And so you're sort of stacking these worlds together in ways that will help you progress with all of the varying abilities in them. And it's really light on story. That's for sure. I know that's a big problem that you have with it, Ben. We'll get to that, I'm sure. But as far as puzzles go, they're really unique, well-designed puzzles. They won't let you walk off into random areas where, you know, you don't have any business being to solve this puzzle. They do a good job of like naturally limiting where you're going so that you're always kind of in the space where you need to figure something out. I think with puzzle games,

a lot of the discouragement for a lot of people comes from just not knowing where to be, where to go, what to do. And in this game, you do have moments where you don't know what to do. But it does a great job of making sure that you're in the right space to figure out what you need to do. And that's one of the reasons why I think that game is so fantastic, is just the raw excellence in game and puzzle design is fascinating. Now, the graphics are great and the music is really captivating. And I also have a soft spot for games that, you know, don't have words per se. and still manage to convey a lot. And I think this game really succeeds in doing that as well.

I don't think it's going to win over people who aren't puzzle gamers, obviously. But I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jess, but I think even if you didn't particularly love this game, I think you probably were still able to appreciate the world that it built and the graphics and the sound and all that. Yeah, I'm a big dummy. And so I just was very ambitious. as being like a little, a little bug

and carrying that ball all the entire time, I will tell you immediately, immediately, I didn't know what I was doing. Those puzzles were so damn hard. Yes, I did cheat. I looked at a lot of walkthroughs of the game because I was getting stuck.

I was like, what do you mean I could put it in there? I was so confused. I think I just got, it was so beautiful. I love the music, and I just love being a little bug person and carrying that ball around and then going into different worlds through, like using it to like energize stuff

to go through to other maps and then come back to the other map. So confusing. The puzzles were so hard, but it was so beautiful that it still got me to keep playing it. And maybe it was because it was so like, minimalist looking or simplistic

that I was like, oh, I'm very enamored with this and I want to keep going. And I did. I think it was just the same kind of puzzle, boss, puzzle, and then another boss. and then another puzzle where I was like,

oh, I can play this and kind of tune out, which is great, but I also was like, I'm kind of doing the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. How do you compare the puzzle perplexity in this game to Braid, which I made you play earlier this year? The thing is, at least in Braid,

I didn't really, like, Braids got combat. That's what, and I think that's what made it a little bit easier for me, because this is me alone, not following the directions of where these, like, fake Gumbas are going. I was able to kind of decipher,

for a little bit in braid. And then I was like, it's okay if I don't get the puzzle piece. I just got to keep, I just got to make it, get this key and get to the end. This, I was like, I'm literally stuck here. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I can't get through these bars. But again, I did, I immediately just would Google, which happened a lot, which happened a lot. But I didn't Google when I went against the bosses.

I actually didn't that myself. There we go. Yeah. I think part of like the, the charm of it. And part of the reason why I was so blown away by it is because of that unique sort of recursive world puzzle structure is really kind of something we haven't seen in the way that they do it before. And it kind of breaks your brain a little because you've never had to solve puzzles like this. You've never, you know, you'll shoot a projectile into this globe and then you have to, you know, go into that globe and see where that projectile is going and change that world and then jump back out. And then it's very, it's very unique.

And I don't think I've had to warp my brain in this way quite before to, to solve these kinds of puzzles. You guys get like dopamine from this. You and Ben, you guys, like the satisfaction from finishing the puzzle, you guys like, this is great. Me, I'm sweating. I feel like an idiot. It's been three days.

I'm still trying to figure it out. I hate this. It makes me feel stupid. But this game was very pretty. I just want to note that. You just got to keep feeling stupid until you're like, until I, this is what I do at puzzle games too. You just feel so dumb for so long. And then and then you just have perseverance enough to like pull through and be like, oh my God, I'm not the stupidest.

I'm the smartest. Then it's like so obvious. Ben did this with Braid. It makes it seem so obvious when you get it that it makes me feel like it knocks me down. It knocks me down. It makes me feel worse. Yeah. Sometimes the dumber you feel while you're playing the smarter you feel when you actually solve the puzzle.

You can't feel smart without feeling stupid. I don't know about that. It's the duality of it. You know, we'll talk about that. That sort of relates to slay the princess. We'll get to that. Yes. Yeah.

There are sometimes when I would solve a puzzle and I would just feel dumber because I'd be like, how did I not get that? Right. But then most of the time in this game, I just felt an appreciation for how clever the puzzle design was and some small amount of pride in myself for managing. to unravel it, right? So I thought the puzzle design was great. I should say this game is available on all platforms. If you want to check it out, Windows, PlayStation, Xbox Switch. I played it on Switch, and the frame rate wasn't great.

So Switch 2 can't come soon enough. If it can't handle cocoon, I think we need a new hardware upgrade here, Nintendo. But I was really impressed by how much this game does with just the joystick and the A button, right? or whatever the action button is. It's a one-button game for everything. And sometimes it can almost feel like you're not really playing. It depends on the type of game. But in this one, it was very interactive and still pretty dynamic and kinetic.

And there were boss fights that were pretty satisfying. But all of it was done with one button and brainpower. So it was really elegant. I thought it was kind of like minimalistic, but not simplistic. And I love that in games. when you can design a game that is this good with such a minimal control scheme. Like, Overcooked is one of the best, like, multiplayer games the past decade, in my opinion. And there's very little controls to that.

You can get someone who doesn't really play games that often, pull them into Overcooked. And you say, okay, this is chop, and that's throw, and this is action, and that's it. And yet that game becomes so complex with minimal controls. I think that's a sign of a really well-designed game when you can do so much with so little controls. Yeah. And it's really just not larded down with a bunch of collectibles and other things to do. Like, I guess there's some optional stuff. You can find some statue things and free them.

But that's about it. And it is fairly linear, which helps, as you said, because it's already breaking your brain. So at least you know, like, I'm in the right place to be doing this puzzle. this is where I'm supposed to be. I can't solve it, but at least I'm not in a completely different room from the one where I'm supposed to be. So I appreciated that.

And as you said, it looks great, it sounds great. It looks like some other indie games, I guess. It reminds me of some other games. Like my wife saw me playing it and she thought I was playing Death Store, which is a great indie game from a couple years ago that we both played. And I guess indie games just because

you tend to have smaller teams and fewer resources, So you have a lot of side scrollers and you have isometric view games, right? And so at first glance, maybe there's some similarities. But I like the blend of organic and technological in this game. It's like sort of disturbing, kind of creepy in a scavenger's rain sort of way at times, but beautiful and kind of calming too. Yeah, and there are subtle hints for the puzzles that relate to sort of the visual style of each world. Each world has, you know, those unique abilities that I was talking about that you can

use. And when you get stuck at a puzzle, sometimes you'll see a very, very slight hint based on, you know, a color or maybe vegetation or a piece of like an alien-looking technology. So all of these separate worlds, they do a really good job of kind of separating them out and then suddenly hinting in a direction towards that. Mm-hmm. Jess, were you sort of stumped right out of the gate, or did you have to build up to being frustrated? Because at first, it's sort of a standard puzzler, and then it gets more and more complex, and you get more and more of these orbs that contain worlds within them, and you're moving them around and you're switching them out, and it becomes, I think, more complicated by the end. Yeah, I don't really think outside the box.

So at the beginning, I was, it was easy, like, I'm trying to remember the very first one. And I remember doing it. Like, I was just like, oh, I'm going to wander around and figure this out. It was my trouble, because I don't think outside the box, kept being like, oh, I didn't know this was what I had to interact with. I just would like, I was like, oh, I'm stuck behind this. And I would just, like, sit there and be like, where do I go? And I thought I was protecting the ball. And then I was like, no, you got to let go of it.

and I was like, oh, I thought I had to carry it everywhere. Like I was, I should have, and that's probably on me. I probably should have looked into, because I knew I wasn't going to really play cocoon because I was like, oh, it's a puzzle game. I'm not good at these. I feel dumb. You set yourself up to fail. I did.

And I should have looked into it. I just like, anytime it showed up on anything, I was like, I know that I won't like this game. And so I did not know anything about it. And then playing it, I was just like playing it like a, A baby. Like a dumb little baby. I'll say there's not much for you if you're not, you know, a puzzle diehard in this game.

You know, one of the knocks I know that you have on it, Ben, is there really isn't a story to speak of in the game. And I am a story person. Yeah, me too. I said the same thing, actually, to Matt, offline that you said just that it's just kind of the same thing over and over. The puzzles get more complex, but it just struck. structurally, it's just solved this puzzle. Okay, onto the next puzzle. Beat a boss.

There's another puzzle right after that. There's no post-boss breather, you know, where it's like, okay, I beat a boss. I feel some sense of triumph here. I get to collect some loot or just relax for a while. It was just instantly, here's another puzzle. But see, for me, as a puzzle game enthusiast, that's sort of like saying, that's what you want. That's sort of like saying, you know, the thing about Street Fighter Six is that you beat one guy and then you have to fight

right again after it, you know? Just nonstop fighting in Street Fighter. That's the thing that there is... I shouldn't say that, though, because on Street Fighter 6, you can run around the city. Yes, exactly. I was like, well, I guess. It depends on which one you're doing. And I also went to Mortal Kombat first instead of Street Fighter, and I was like,

well, yeah, but it's the combos that are the fun part. There is, and that's why I'm like, even though the game's not for me, people that love puzzle games is perfect for you. Like, people that like to zone out and just go, this is for you. If this like de-stresses you, this is for you completely.

You don't have to read nothing. No reading. There's no reading. If you can't read, this is great for you. Play this game. All you illiterate geniuses out there. Yeah.

You're gay. People who want to be shown, not told, are going to love this game because it's not as if there's no... If you can't read, you're smart as hell. Hell yeah, baby.

Check out Kakoon. Yeah, there's a vibe. certainly to this game, and there's sort of a theme or kind of a vague sense of what's going on. Like, it's open to interpretation, but there's a story of sorts, right? It's just not clearly laid out for you, which some people might appreciate. I would have liked a little more, I think, but if you don't want your hand held, if you don't want to be just walk through every beat of the story, then you might like this, because you can kind of form your own understanding of what it means.

I also looked at a walkthrough a couple times, partly because I had to finish it before recorded this podcast. So sometimes it'll depend on how long the game is and am I pressed for time. But it's always a difficult decision about whether to resort to the walkthrough, at least if you're someone who does like puzzle games, because in a sense it defeats the purpose if you are going to spoil yourself and just look up what to do. But it can get to a point where it's just so frustrating that you're not enjoying the game anymore. And it's like, I got to get past this one roadblock so I can get to some other good stuff. Sometimes there's just a puzzle that you're just immune to it for whatever reason, right? It's not necessarily harder than other puzzles. It just doesn't click for you.

And there are times in this game where maybe the rules of the world weren't completely clear to me until after I found the solution or looked up the solution. Matt, do you ever resort to walk throughs or are you a purist? Are you just like, it will spoil the experience for me if someone else walks me through it? I would like to be someone who goes to walkthroughs and just doesn't waste an extra hour of my time. But unfortunately, I won't really let myself do that until it gets to like a point where it's dire. Yeah. I got through this game without looking at a walkthrough. But that doesn't mean I wasn't stuck for, I probably played this game for a lot more hours.

than you did it. That's the thing, right? It's like the average playtime of these games might say four or five hours on how long to be, but that's, are you counting the hours that you were stuck and that you were wondering around

wondering what to do or not? Because that might make a big difference. My stubbornness is to be noted. I wish. I wish. I wish I had that. To be fair, but Slay the Princess,

I didn't do it. But with Kaku and I absolutely did. I was like, I got to look up this walkthrough. I would have done it. I would also done it for Spider-Man because sometimes I got pissed in that game too. I just always look it up.

I think like the less you look up, you know, puzzle game solutions, I feel like the better you get at being comfortable with that feeling of being stuck, you know, like it makes you feel dumb. It does. Like I've played so many puzzle games,

the amount of dumb I've felt in my life playing puzzle games. It's like, You guys will probably never get there because you're willing to just say, this isn't fun anymore. I'm going to look up this illusion. But I think I've built up this tolerance of like, I'm used to feeling stupid enough that it doesn't bother me. And it allows me to kind of push through that stupidness, perhaps.

Yeah. And the more puzzle games you play, you develop a mental database. Even if it's a different mechanic, it's like, okay. I know what you're doing here. I'm onto your tricks. This is one of those. Right. This is one of those.

Right. And even within the game, because the puzzles build on each other. And so you get to the end of the game. And it's like, all right, this seems sort of similar to what I was doing earlier on. And it fooled me then, but you won't fool me twice. I'm smarter now. I have looked up the walkthrough. I know what to do here.

So that's sort of satisfying, too, when you feel like you learned and you leveled up, even if your character doesn't really level up in this game. So I really liked Kaku. I didn't quite love it. And it did remind me of some other games I played, at least aesthetically speaking, although you're right, Matt, the recursive nature of it. I don't know if it's unique. There have been a few other games that had sort of similar approaches.

I don't know if it's enough to call it a trend, but things like Patrick's Paribox or McKett, which was another Inoperna game. Oh, yeah. There are some other games that have sort of similar mechanics, but it's always cool. It's something that appeals to computer programmer. I know because they're like, oh, it's just like when I code. But it is kind of cool for us, too. So I endorse your selection here, even though I don't share it. Maybe we can move to Jess's favorite next, because I have a feeling that mine might provoke the strongest feelings and debate and argument. So maybe we can end on that. Jess, make your case for your favorite of the trio. Thank you, Ben. I also want to say that it's not our fault that you chose wrong. But you are. making it seem like I'm the bad person.

Regardless, I love to slay the princess. No surprise here, because it's a story game. It's a story game. It's basically like a choose-your-own adventure where you play as just like, you don't know who you are really. You just get thrown into this forest. The narrator's telling you that you have to go inside a cabin

and kill a princess. And it's up to you to decide whether or not you want to kill the princess. And with those outcomes of what you choose are a million different endings. And there's so many endings that people have, you can look it up online. There's a million different endings.

There's graphs that show you what to choose to get to what characters, to get to what ending. You can do whatever you want. I did not do that this time round. I played it authentically as myself the first time. Died immediately. Died immediately. I should have slayed the princess. And then I played it a couple more times.

And I started getting so enamored with just like what the lore is behind it because you don't know who you are. You think you're like a human, but then you have a talent for a. a hand. And then you're also wondering, like, your question your morals and your values of like, should I believe the narrator or should I not kill this person that I don't really know? It gave me the same feeling of Braid, though, where it's like not all is what seems. We're listening to only one side of a story without knowing the entirety of it. Yeah. I guess in Braid, you think you're, you're rescuing the princess or the damsel in distress and then it turns out that maybe not, you're sort of a stalker. But this game is like up front about it. It's like, yeah, you're supposed to kill the princess,

But you don't have to. You don't have to. And then you can go talk to her and then you can further your, whether you want to kill her or not. And it's so fun. The voice acting is so fun. The art is so beautiful. The music is great. And I just love that it's every little thing.

A lot of these, I play a lot of like simulators where you're choosing the story and you're choosing where you're doing like a little misfortune or like even dating simulators that I think are just funny. And this one, I think, does a really good job of being like every choice you choose and in different orders can make a different outcome or has a different impact on the outcome. And because I would do sometimes the same kind of shit. And then I was like, oh, why am I dead immediately? Right. Why am I, why am I killing myself? It's a good story. And they say it's a love story.

I still don't see it. And maybe it's me. Maybe you guys have different views on it. but it's like a horror love story that I love so much. Yeah, there's definitely a horror element to it, which obviously worried me. I sent you a screenshot of the content warning when it's like, this is a horror game. It's not intended for all audiences. I'm like, uh-oh, maybe it's not intended for me, but no, it's not actually scary.

It's creepy. It's unnerving at times, but not scary. I know Alan Wake, too. That's for sure. No, oh, no. Ben was having a hard time with Al-Wi-2. I was having a hard time with that. I loved it.

I finished this game. I'm proud of myself. Yeah, even though we should also say what platforms these things are available. This is for Windows, Mac, and Linux. And I actually played a computer game for the podcast. Proud of myself. But what did you make of it, Matt? I was pretty impressed by it.

I will say, like, ultimately, what we're talking about is a visual novel. It is a glorified choose-your-own advantage. venture. And I think that's where my criticism of it ends, because within that framework, I think they've done an incredible job. One of the things that stands out to me is that in most visual novels, you're just like, it's like the opposite of cocoon. You're just sitting there and you're just like, oh, my God, all these words that I have to read, because I know how to read. It's so stressful. Keep reading. In this one, one of the best things about it is the voice work. Every line, Jesse, you talked about how there seemingly are just an endless number of possibilities of directions that this can go and the complicated sort of web that you can weave throughout the story.

The most amazing thing about this game is that they have voiced every single line of dialogue in this game, and the voice acting is pretty fantastic. And I also think that for a visual novel of this nature, that voice work goes a long way. ultimately, this is a game that is a lot about just sort of trying to figure out what you can trust. What you... Who's the... Is the narrator unreliable? You're constantly trying to sort of suss out motivation

and intention. And the voice work really helps sort of, you know, make that a deeper thing to try and suss out. Yeah. So that I thought was really great. Ultimately, without spoiling anything, the overarching premise of it gets, it reminded me of a lot of anime or, you know, like RPGs, I guess, where by the end of it you're getting really high view. Yeah.

What does everything mean? Kind of take look at stuff. But yeah, I thought within that framework, it's incredible for what it is. I don't play a lot of visual novels. I played like had a full boyfriend back in the day, you know? But like, I think for this type of game, if it is something you like, then I think this is a great example of it. It's sort of a time loop game or it has a lot of repetition in it inherently. because you're replaying this scenario over and over.

You show up and the narrator says, kill the princess, and then you have to decide what to do, and you have several different options. And so each time you play through it, you are returning to the same starting point often. And that's not a bad thing, I think, but it can get repetitive.

I don't know whether you see that as a negative or a positive. Like repetition is just kind of baked into it, and you can take a different, path each time. But I agree it looks great. It's kind of gray scale like black and white, but shades of gray, much like the story, which is also open to interpretation. And the voice work is great where I felt bad about skipping some of the voice lines. Like, you can't the first time, I guess, but then there are certain lines that you might hear several times because you're just returning to that starting point again and it'll give you the same dialogue. And I felt bad skipping through it

because it does sound so good and clearly a lot of work went into it. And it's funny, right? It's almost like a Monty Python-esque humor, like a John Cleese-like narrator. And so there's a lot of laughs, even though it gets serious and sort of scary sometimes. So I really liked it. And it even has some kind of like meta messing with you, like psychomantus style. There's one point where you can choose to wait for all eternity and my game crashed. I don't know if that happened for you, but like crashed on purpose and then I had to reopen it again.

And that was like its way of representing waiting for eternity. I think so, unless I was like a well-timed bug. I don't know. I don't know. Because I'm not trying to spoil, but I got to that crossroad too. Okay, first off, it's not really a spoiler. There's a million outcomes. You don't have to go to those ones.

I think I had that outcome and I chose to kill myself. And so I just died And then I got taken to chapter one And I went God damn it Like it just kept happening I will say tips for it Again time wise It can take you one hour

Not even If you want to just play it once It could take you 10 minutes It depends on who the person is It's so quick Also quick saves are great Because then if you really hated that outcome You just go back to it and be like

Oh I changed my mind Which is what I did in Boulder's Gate a lot So it's so easy, so fun, and quick-saving, do it all the time. If you're too nervous about choosing an option, just quick-save and then go back to it. Yeah, yeah. And I was worried at first that it was forcing me in a certain direction. Like I was wondering, is this just forcing me down one path? And I'm just kind of beaten around the bush here, but ultimately it makes you do what it wants. But not really, right? I mean, the point of it is just to explore all the options and see what happens,

or at least that's how I played it. I didn't look up anything while I was playing it, but after I finished it, I went and looked up and just to read about what I could have done differently and how it could have ended, because I felt kind of conflicted about the ending that I chose initially. And there were like thousands of words about what this means and what else you could do.

And I would be interested in comparing notes, I guess, offline. So it was not to spoil anyone about what we chose to do. but there are some weighty decisions at the end of the game. Yeah, I got to know after we get off this what you guys ended up deciding because there are definitely like large moral and philosophical questions that you sort of have to suss out. Yes. I try.

I try, even in like Boulder's, there's a lot of games we played where I was like, I'm going to try being authentically Jessica. And I, that didn't work in this game. So you got to try something. There's also a lot of voices, and I don't think I met one of them. And I played a lot of this. I played like a lot of it. And I was like, there's, sometimes you just got to keep playing to see all of the different

characters you can run into. It's a great game. You usually, if there's a game with like moral alignments, you usually go dark side, right? We've talked about that. And maybe that was my first. I was going to ask, did you resist at all? Did you try to play the hero? Like, no, I'm not going to kill the princess.

I'll go down and see why she's done. down there. Why is she locked up? Or were you just like, yeah, sure, I'll kill her. So you know, I am a dark person. I do those things. But if people know me listening, I am a romantic at heart. And as soon as it became, as soon as it became like, this is a princess, I was falling to smitten immediately. Because I was like, well, why is she evil? And the narrator kept being like, she's evil. Stop it. And I was like, I don't know. She's chained to this wall, but she looks nice. Maybe we were in love. So I was playing with like a sweet attitude and then something happened and I was like, well, you're not getting sweet Jessica anymore.

Yeah. I dread to play it as my athletic self too. Yeah. I won't give away exactly what I did, but I will say that often there are stories where it's like immortality is bad actually. It's mortality that makes life worth living, right? Because we have the time pressure and we can appreciate it. every moment that we have. And I'm always like, I would be willing to try immortality.

It doesn't sound so bad to me. Ben. I like living. Don't knock until you try to. I'm like. What is wrong with you? I feel like it's a coping mechanism because none of us wants to die and we're all just like, but it's better this way.

We're just trying to tell ourselves that, right? Maybe you've already died a thousand times, Ben. Maybe it's fine. So when I'm given the option to choose immortality, then I'll go for it. You know, I don't get that option in real life. so crazy because I know what scene you're talking about and I don't think I would ever choose that ever in my life. And this is one of the reasons why the game, you play it and you immediately want to talk to people about it. Yeah. Because no one's experience is the same and you can

learn which of your friends are absolute psychopaths. Ben! Exactly. Well, we have different tastes. That's what makes this podcast work. Different taste in reality. Yes. And in video games, you have one favorite, I have another. I will say, I like this game. Matt, I guess this was our least favorite of the three, right? But that's not a knock on it. Like, I don't intend to criticize it. It's just that I liked all these games to some degree.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I will say towards the top of this game, you know, you really don't know what you're dealing with at the beginning. Yeah. And yeah, it drops you in a place and says, slay the princess. And immediately I am just like, I'm going to need more information than that. You're going to need to know what's happening. Where am I?

Who are you? And I just had so many questions. And in a game where like it lets you ask a lot of questions, I still felt like I wasn't getting enough info for a long time and was being forced into very difficult decisions without enough information. And I was pretty frustrated at the start. But I do feel like eventually. you know, it all paid off.

I was sort of worried that it would kind of end up being like that show lost, right? Where they're just like, here's another. Well, there's a polar bear in the woods. What's that about? And it never actually, they're just kind of winging it and not everything pays off at the end, you know? And whereas this game, I really do feel like all of like the questions you have kind of get answered. Yeah. Yeah.

So if anyone's playing it and you start off and you're like feeling kind of like unsettled and uneasy about it. Just stick with it for a while. It's sort of designed to be unsettling at first. Yeah. And half the fun of it for me was trying to remember the different permutations of choices that I'd made already. Like, did I say this to her?

Have I already done this? Is this going to lead down a different path than it did before? But every playthrough is different somehow. And it's really impressive that they pulled that off. Speaking of different opinions. The last game that we're going to talk about today, my favorite, Jess's lead. favorite. Matt is the middleman, again, is JuSaint, which is available also for pretty much all platforms,

Windows, PlayStation, Xbox. It is available via GamePass now, if you want to check it out there. I really liked Jusant. Jusant is a French term for like a receding tide, and that comes into play in the story and the themes of this game. Basically, you are a wordless protagonist, another game where there's a lot of reading, but no speaking. So it's kind of a blend between the two that we've talked about already. And you are climbing a tower. So this is not a tower defense game. It's a tower summiting game, maybe a little like some of those games that go viral on Twitch

where you're just endlessly climbing. But this one, there are different routes you can take. You find out more about this world and this civilization as you go, as you ascend, because it is a lot like the other games, I guess, that we've talked about, where not everything is fully explained, right? Which is sort of a hallmark of indies. Maybe it's one thing that makes them so exciting, the storytelling styles. Some things are left open to interpretation and to the imagination, and you just find out more as you go. And so in this game, you're reading letters and diaries and journals that are left behind by people, but there's no one else in this world except you, this mysterious climber.

and your cute companion that rides on your shoulder and that Mallory Rubin would really love. And it really boils down to trying to piece together, where did everyone go, what is going on in this world? There's clearly been a drought and people have been running out of water and they've been leaving in search of water. And you read a lot about people who say, oh, there used to be waves and rain and is this just the elders making these things up or did it actually exist? but gameplay-wise, it boils down to climbing. This is a climbing simulator, I guess, sort of like a walking simulator, except that you climb. And you have various ways that you can ascend.

You have a rope that you're attached to, and it has a finite length. And so you have to join it to stuff and use it to climb up. And you can climb using like various outcroppings or things that you find around the world. and you just go up and up and up and try to get to the top. And premise and setting go a long way with me. And this one works.

I was really intrigued by this world and also by the climbing mechanic, which you better be, because that's what the whole game is. If you don't like that, then you're not going to like Gassad. So, Jess, you didn't like Gassad. No.

What did you dislike about this game? I think I'm one of the 1% because a lot of people like this game and they should. It feels like a mix. It's funny. because it feels like a mix between cocoon and Slay the Princess in a way, and I somehow did not like that one.

I like Coon and this a little bit more in Slai the Princess. But this one was just like, again, of course, there's no surprise that Slai the Princess was my favorite of the three. It's no surprise that I like very story-driven, romantic, sappy things. And then if it's not that, it's like a first-person shooter. And this was none of those things. Killer, killer, beloved. That's your, uh...

Yeah, that's all I want. This, not even in between. But I will say I held on as soon as I got that little creature because it was so cute. And I was like, ooh, I want to see what we get to do. Then we're just climbing, just climbing and not using the rope correctly and being stuck because I didn't realize I could go only so far. Reading the letters, I got that. I was like, this is fun.

But then I also was like, what is? what's my motivation? What is, what am I doing? I'm just climbing. Just climbing. That's a little how I felt in cocoon. Yeah. I got so bored.

I just got so bored. I have a short attention span. I'm here for the short attention span girlies that need a lot of stuff to entertain them very quickly. We have the TikTok brains and this is not a TikTok game. Oh, goodness. Yeah. I found it to be a good blend of puzzles linked to action.

You know, like as you said, it's kind of a half. medium, or at least it was a happy medium for me, unhappy medium for you. But it's the middle grounds between these games where one is just reading and listening and the other is puzzling. And this one, the climbing itself becomes a puzzle, but it's also, I think, satisfying to control. Sometimes maybe there's a little jankiness or it's not entirely clear what you can grip and what you can't. But for the most part, I thought it worked really well. And it made you think about, okay, how am I going to get up there? And I'm not an accomplished climber in real life. My wife loves to do indoor climbing, so I've gone with her from time to time. I don't know whether that

enhanced my enjoyment of this or not, but you use the shoulder buttons, basically, and each corresponds to an arm, a hand. And so you were kind of mirroring the gripping of the character, and I found that just really satisfying. What did you make of it, Matt? I thought that was satisfying too. But the real, like, ultimately the climbing mechanic isn't enough for, you know, me to say, oh, this is a great game. Ultimately, the thing that I loved about this game was the world, the setting, this, this idea that you are entering this tower pretty much after all signs of life have been, you know, are gone. And you're sort of piecing together what happened here as you're ascending. And I think that, you know,

One of the things I said about Slay, the Princess, that I loved that I felt like went a long way was the voice work in that game. And I think that if the notes that you found in JuSaint were voiced, I think it would add some weight to them. It would add some emotion to this very emotional story, ultimately, of this community of people sort of coming to terms with the fact that this environmental change is forcing people to make really tough decisions. There's a very compelling world here. And, you know, if you just came from Starfield, let's say, where, like, you can pick up 80,000 things that are eight pages long and you're just like, I'm not reading this crap, right? So it'd be very easy to just like go through Ju-Som and be like, oh, there's a note. Yeah, someone left. Okay.

But which is like, because some of them are a little lengthy, right? But like if you were to, if you were to treat this like Starfield and just be like, oh, note, all right. you'd miss, in my opinion, like the best elements of the game. And so it's kind of unfortunate to me that the story is sort of tucked away in these notes because if there were just a performance of it, I think that it would give more weight to it.

And I don't know, if they could have just inserted some more of that sort of storytelling in the actual gameplay experience, it would have gone a long way, because the thing that kept me going in this game was that world, the story of what had happened here, and eventually what is going to happen when I get to the top in relation to that, it was what kept me going for sure.

So I think they almost undersold the best elements of this game. It's interesting because I think the people that said they don't really like it, crazy to me because I'm a story person, are like, it's the letters. If the letters were not in it, I probably would have had a better time with the game. And I was like, that's, that's so crazy. Do you need flashbacks? Does it need to be just like that visual for you to like want to like like it?

I don't want people to not want to play it just because of the letters. But it seems like some people are like, it just wasn't for me. Yeah, I would welcome voice where because there's one character in particular whose diary you're reading as they're climbing higher and higher. And so if that had been voiced, maybe it would have conveyed the character a little bit. better because you would have had more emotional stakes in that character's journey as you're, yeah. And also, it was a little confusing at first. You'd be reading these diary entries by this one person, and then you find notes from all different people. And you eventually, you're like, oh, okay, wait, this is this person and this is not. And yeah, that voice work would have instantly that would have

conveyed, you know. Yeah. By the end, I felt like I pieced together who I was reading about and what happened to this world. And it all kind of became clear. but it is, it's a really lived-in world in the sense that you can tell that this was populated and this area was this kind of thing and that area was that kind of thing. But it's also desolate and abandoned. I don't know whether either of you has read his dark materials, but it reminded me of Chittagate, the abandoned city where Will and Lyra meet, where it's kind of haunted almost, and you get echoes of people who used to be there. It looks a lot like a team Eco game, Eco or Shadow of the Colossus or maybe Journey, it has that kind of vibe.

And there's not much music. Sometimes it's silent, but what music there is is really good, I think, and it's quiet and meditative. And it's really calming, I feel like, you know, because you can't die is the other thing. I don't like heights, but I wasn't worried in this game because you cannot detach. Like, you will always just swing at the end of your rope. So maybe that's too low stakes for some people. But for me, it was like, okay, you know, I can take my time.

I can find my way up this mountain. I'm not going to plunge to the bottom and have to start over again. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't, you know, I wasn't missing the fact that, you know, you can't die in this game. And I thought it would have been a little bit antithetical to some of the themes of the game if you could just fall off the mountain and die. Right. A lot of this is sort of about perseverance and faith.

and drive, which I really appreciated. Yeah. And there's collectibles and, as you said, the letters and everything. Some of that stuff is hard to find. But if you do want to invest the time to explore every nook and cranny, then you will be rewarded for that. I think my favorite thing about it was just the feeling of accomplishment that I got as I ascended higher and higher.

Because at first, like, you look up and you can't see the top. You can't see where you have to go. You see birds circling overhead. and you might see some stations or some boulders, and then you climb for a while, and then all of a sudden you look down and you see something below you that used to be above you,

and I find that so satisfying. It's like, look how far I've come, you know? And the draw distance was good enough that you can look a lot of the way down the mountain at times, and that was just a really visual representation of my progress that I really liked being able to track my ascent up the mountain. That's sweet. That's cute.

I think that's really interesting. I think that's really intentional, too. Yeah. Thematically, they really want you to feel like, you know, if there's something in your life that feels insurmountable, like left, right, left, right? One hand in front of the other. One hand in front of the other.

One hand in front of the other, yeah. I beat your son. Anything is possible now. Yeah. Oh, my God. I beat you son. I'm never going to die. Right.

Yeah. No, maybe inside the princess. I'm not. But it's hard. It's hard to make a climbing mechanic that doesn't get old, I think. And this one didn't really for me because there are a lot of games where climbing is a big part of the game, but I find that often it's just so clearly telegraphed what elements are interactive that it becomes mindless, like Jedi Survivor or Uncharted, where maybe it's kind of fun to just hop from one ledge to another, but it's so clearly indicated this is where you go that there's no thought to it really. And if you didn't indicate that, then people might just be. lost. You know, you need to indicate, like, can I climb this? Is this interactive or not? But I thought this was a good balance where I wasn't always sure where to go, but I wasn't super frustrated. And it became clear to me that, okay, I can go up here. I can't go that way. I can go this way.

Trial and error. And I just enjoyed my trip up the mountain. So this was my favorite of the three. If you're a gamer who really likes feeling like you're in a unique world and living in that world, this is a good one for you. Put the headphones on. Like you said, there is a little bit of, you know, there's music in the game at times. But also there are times where you get to a certain spot and it has you just listening for, you know, 30 seconds to, to like echoes of what happened in that space when there was still civilization. And for some people, you're just going to be like, man, what the, this, can I go now? And for other people, you're sitting there like, really, like, really.

focused and listening in to like what happened here. That was me. Just breathing deeply, just savoring the moment and the silence. Yeah. And there are wrinkles to the climbing as you go where the terrain will change and you'll encounter some crawly creatures that you can hang on to or it'll get really windy and there's a different challenge to it. So there's a clear sense of progression to it too.

But look, I enjoyed my time with all these games. and I think we all did, maybe except for Jess with Giussana. It's the only one that I literally did not finish. But it's fun. Just not for me. Just not for me. Spoiler alert, like the mountain ends at some point. Yeah, it's not an infinite mountain.

You can't get to the top. But I would recommend these individual games. And I'd also recommend this way of playing games, which is not to say that you can't put 300 hours into Baldur's Gate. but I really like just being able to sample a different game every day or every couple days, and I just spend a few hours with it and I see, okay, this was what they were going for. Hopefully they got there. It's just a different world that I was transported to for a little while. I finish it.

I get a feeling of accomplishment. I can fit it into my schedule and then I can move on. It's just a totally different experience from playing a massive game that's going to take you weeks and weeks, which can also be great, but it's different. I find it to be complimentary. You know, it's just like a palette cleanser after the blockbusters we've been playing. And real quick, a recommendation for you

based on these three games. I would recommend Chance of Cinar. It's a game, it's an indie game that came out this year. It's actually my favorite Climb a Tower and Discover the history of a people game of the year over Jusant. It's a really interesting puzzle game about linguistics. you're sort of piecing together the languages of all these different civilizations that are cut off from each other once as you're ascending this tower.

It's probably about double the length of Gissant, I would say. It is a puzzle game. It at times reminded me of like old LucasArts adventure games or like, but it's really a wonderfully crafted world. It's got a great sort of concise message at the end. The puzzles are really strong. So definitely big recommendation for me. If any of these games sort of clicked with you, you might want to check that out. Yeah, that's been on my list for a while.

Jess is like, oh, if you like Jusant, play a chance of snar. I'm not there. Okay. I'm on my way. Yeah. There I go right now. She'll be playing right after we finish recording. Sprinty.

Which we're about to do because we've reached the end of this episode. Matt, thank you. Maybe you can come back for our big goody blowout because you have played so many games. this year, but always the pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for having it all. Each winner. Yeah, and we're winners for having you on. Thanks to Steve Allman for producing and to our January Ramkapal Senior Podcast Manager.

Email us at ringerverse gaming at gmail.com to share your recommendations with us. Check out upcoming pods from Mint Edition, The Midnight Boys, and House of R. And stay tuned to ButtonMash for coverage, possibly of the GTA trailer and Avatar and the Best Games of 2023. Until then, keep climbing. And if anyone asks you to kill a princess chained in a basement, remember to take your knife. Just think about it.

Just think about it. Maybe not.