The Ringer-Verse - ‘Hawkeye’ Episode 5 Instant Reactions | House of Midnight

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

The entire Ringer-Verse gang assembled to discuss their instant reactions to the penultimate episode of 'Hawkeye' (03:48). They discuss the biggest revelation involving the inclusion of Echo's story (51:06). They also discuss the elusive Jack and what comes next for him, as well as a major MCU villain's reveal. Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join Justin Charity and Micah Peters and Sound Only as they discuss their deepest, darkest thoughts about the millennial lifestyle, rap music, video games, anime, YouTube, social media, and their underlying themes. Check out Sound Only on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

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We're slightly uncomfortable. We're stretching our legs right now. Welcome to a special edition of the House of Midnight Recapping Hawkeye, Episode 5. We are recording this in person, mostly. We still have Joe joining us from Northern California. Oh, hi. So I want to make sure that I introduce Jonah Robinson

and Mallory Rubin. Hello. How are you guys doing today? You have your like, you have your fresh air voice on, your NPR voice. I love that. Because because I want to make sure that I give difference to our counterparts because we have. We have me, old man, van, he of the receding hairline. We have Coke baby Chuck, the 24-carric closer.

Jomi, the explainer, a dinner on, and Steve Almond Joy, the cuddly Christmas bin. Together, we are known as of the Midnight Boys. We got our first soundboard adjustment here on the Pugh-Pew. On the group Poo-Pew. All right, program and reminders this Friday, the Midnight Boys return to give

their instant reactions to Spider-Man No Way Home. A movie that we've seen, we cannot wait. And this coming Monday, the House of R arrives to give their deep dive analysis of it. You guys,

I don't know if you guys have enough podcast to deep dive this movie. I know. What kind of prediction? Time code. How long are you guys going? Four hours, five? I don't want to say anything on the public record. I'm afraid.

Here's what I will say. We're starting early. Oh, boy. Shout out to all and joy. Shout to all the joy. Yeah, like that's going to be, there's a lot to get to. You guys are going to be doing some spulunking, you know, some cave diving. Going in there doing your thing.

Okay, on today's show, we're going to be talking about the events of Hawkeye episode five. And the main thoughts that we have going into the finale of Hawkeye, this is big, big deal. Hawkeye seems like it is sprinted by. There are other Disney Plus shows that, let's face it, it was a marathon. What if it was a marathon? Every week I'd be like, oh, we got more. I liked what if, but it was like, damn, there's a lot of what-if scenarios. Hawkeye, though, it seems like we just started to get to know these people.

So there's only one left, and we are talking about what's going into that last episode. But, you know, no more pleasantries. We're all here together. We're all in the same room, but we have to get into it, which means we have to do something here that we love to do every week, which is roll a spoiler warning for people who are listening to a reaction podcast. It's one of my favorite things to do. Steve, go ahead and hit them with me. We're getting ready to talk about you're listening to a reaction podcast.

The spoilers are coming. Okay. In keeping with tradition, what we've been doing here, it's been working really well, by the way, Charles. Thank you, man. Thank you. I feel like after meeting you for the first time, we're getting along too well.

It can't last. Yeah, Charles met and I gave him a bare hug. It was quite the sensation. There was electricity in the room. Honestly, beautiful to witness. Like memorable, genuinely. It's the first time I ever saw him. I picked him up.

If you guys don't know, Van, Van, Van is a tall man. He's a tall and strong, strapping young gentleman. It was on a staircase, too. On a stair, it was very romantic. It was bold. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I couldn't help myself.

All right, Charles, give us all the need to know on Hawkeye, episode five. All right. The Midnight Benefist. Night Manifest. All right, some background. Episode title is Ronan, written by Jenna, Noel Frazier, better known as a staff writer on the Romanoffs. Same directors as the previous two, Burton Birdie. And here's the plot. We flashback to 2018. Yelena tries to free a fellow black widow from mind control only to find she's not brainwashed. The three widows discuss Yelena's sex and the city fantasy of living with Natasha in New York City. I wonder what

thinks of what happened to Mr. Big? No spoilers. But then Yelena goes to the bathroom and is blipped. When she comes back five years later, she finds out Natasha was killed. Kate comes home from the rooftop fight and cries with her mother after Clint tells her they're not a team anymore. Kate and Eleanor have a heart to heart, but then Kate tells her mom about the incriminating evidence they found on Armand.

Kazi patches Maya up and tells her she needs to stop her search for the Ronan, but ultimately agrees to help her kill him if she agrees that will be. enough. Yelena Ambushies Kate at our apartment to find out where Clint Barton is. And guys, can I give you my top four one-liners of this episode? Are you guys ready? Please. You have one fork. Kate, this is not cutlery. You're probably thinking, what? This is crazy. I'm going to have dinner with the enemy. And she made some really good-smelling macaroni. I love hot sauce. Yes. I love making Christmases, the trees, the presents, the super-powered, ain't there ruled off. He is so weird. Kate returns home to find that Armand is being arrested.

Clint calls Laura to explain that he has to end everything before he comes home. And then Clint as Ronan has a standoff with Maya where he reveals that someone in the crew tipped him off to where her father was staying, which makes Maya confront Kazi. After Kate saves Clint during the Maya fight, Clint and Kate reunite at Grills, aka the coolest MCU civilian ever, I will die for grills. They met in his apartment. And last but not least, Elena texts Kate after tailing Eleanor and it's revealed that Kate's mother not only

hired the foreign black widow to kill Clint, but she's also standing next to the kingpin. My last question for you guys. My Russian accent, pretty good, right? I've been working on it. I think that was an international incident. What?

Better or worse than Lady Gaga and House of Gucci? Well, here's the thing. I think if there is, I'm not aware of any Russian advocacy groups, but if they do exist, I think they will be hearing from them. But how charming was Yelena Bloven in that scene? How charming was that? Yelina is an icon. Great. I already are an icon. Shout out Zach Braff. Sorry, Jim. Okay. Well, let's start. Wow. Chew me. Let's start right there. Yelena is the, she's the new edition. I was a little worried about this. I was worried. I don't know if you guys were. I was worried

about the introduction of a new character so late into the game here. But she seemed to integrate herself kind of flawlessly into this episode and it kind of made sense. Am I right thinking that they pulled off the Elena acquisition

this late into the podcast? This late into the show I mean. Mal? Now. I thought that this was like an instantly iconic Pantheon. MC your sequence. The Kate, Yelena. Macaroni and cheese conversation.

Pugh, Pew, Pew, is just so... Wow. Look at that. Sound effects and everything here on the Midnight Boys. Incredible. She's just so effortlessly

charming and her ability to then switch. I was going to say on a quarter, but I don't want to start us down that road yet. We don't want to know the international incident. into the menace when necessary, the heart. We get her reflections, and that's heavy emotional resonance regarding everything with Natasha, the menace when she's looking ahead to Clint.

We get a reference to Alexi. We get the Black Widow lore, all of this intrigue about what exactly the dynamic is between Val, who we know obviously sent Yelena on this mission from the Black Widow singer. Val and then Eleanor and then Kingpin. Like Yelena, instead of crowding or clogging the episode, which could have happened, right, if it was less deftly structured, she unlocked not only this wonderful dynamic between Kate and Yelena that I hope we get to watch for a decade to come, but basically every crucial plot element that they need to now resolve in presumably 44 more minutes in the finale because

there's only one episode left. So I loved everything with Yelena in this episode. I'm really curious to see what the balance is in the finale because there are a lot of balls in the air, Christmas bibles in the air, I guess, we're heading to Rock Center, tree is lit. But I thought she was awesome. I think that Yelena slash Lawrence Pugh can fit in anywhere. So I'm, I'm all for, I like put her in every show all the time. I love her. I thought the, what we learned about the blip return was so, that was such a wild moment. The, the blip from her perspective, watching everything fade away and then come back. I don't know.

I just thought that was a big, like, to put that piece of lore into this brief pre-previously on moment of the show, I thought was really interesting. Yeah. You know, we've never seen a full blip cycle. We've seen people blip. We've seen people come back from the blip. Exactly.

But we've never seen fade away blip return. blip. Instantly. Instantly. And you never really knew with that fellow, because in Wanda Vision, we saw a bunch of people

come back from the blip, which in it of itself. We see people come back and far from home also. And far from home. We see people come back. But we never saw get blipped out,

come right back. That must have been a weird couple of seconds right there. I felt so crazy for her. What happens like if you get like blipped and then you return and let's say like your husband like remarries

and you come in on his like new family. Oh, I mean, this is definitely a thing. Yeah, for sure. But I won't say narratively, the thing that I like about this is I'm starting to realize with the teasers how much Hawkeye is about these women without natural like superpowers dealing with grief. Because all of them have lost someone. We start with Kate in the first episode losing her dad and having to survive in the superhero world. Then Maya loses her dad in the middle of the season. And she's dealing with that grief. And now we have Yelena. coming back, realizing that moment, Natasha's not there.

She doesn't have any powers. And it's kind of cool how much of this story is now centered on these three women trying to survive in this world that keeps taking away things from that. I think if you brought in it beyond that, too, Eleanor, you know, whatever we end up learning about, she has that really fascinating line.

I know we'll talk more about Eleanor later. I don't want to fast forward head, but it made me think of it. Like she has that line in her tender, nurturing, maternal moment with Kate about like, the surprising path that your life can follow, right? And it's like, well, what grief, whether it was losing Derek or the Battle of New York or anything else that happened, let her down that path?

And what's going on with Laura? Yeah, and we should talk about the fact that Jack might lose his chance to party. I mean, that's also possible in this episode. Free my man, free my man. Some of the most remarkable stuff we've ever seen from our guy Jack in this episode. Just astonishing and tremendous. To Charles's point, I think that's so smart. And I think it was really smart to surround Renner with a lot of female energy.

Like that's a really smart move to counteract however people feel about Renner in this role. Do you know what you mean? I think it really works. He needs it. He needs it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go ahead. What were you going to say? What were you going to say? No. No.

No. No. No. It's very good. I don't want to get bogged down in that. But that's a very astute observation. Very astute observation. Pulling your punches, Van.

I'm not pulling my punches. I'm just saying, you know, sometimes you're watching it and you think about it. That's all I'm saying. I forgot to say this before, but Steve just typed into the notes to remind me to say it. But my first impression of Yelena and Kate over the—elena being in Kate's apartment and all of that felt so much like a Killing Eve scene to me, actually a very specific scene from season one of Killing Eve, where Jody Komer comes in and just eats food in Sandra O's kitchen. And it's like a very cat and mouse, but very charming, very weird scene. It captured that energy perfectly. Not in a way that I'm like, well, they're just copying, killing Eve.

I was just like, yeah, yeah. Channel that weird psychosexual energy into this show. I'm here for it. So there's a thing to me about that scene. Obviously, there's a dynamic that's being set up between them because they're going to be your new widow and your new hawker. Exactly. So that's a huge deal.

The shot kit didn't take. Yeah, exactly. Well, I will say Yelena is officially on Team Quarterflip. She laughs in Kate's face, which he's like, you couldn't be killed me. Come on. So I just want to say. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, that's a thing. I mean, she's obviously at this point further along than what Kate is because she's been training how to do stuff since she's a kid in the bedroom. She's a trained black widow assassin. She's a trained black widow assassin. So, yeah. I have questions about their dynamic. And I'll put it to you like this.

When it's Kate and Clint, Kate is. snappy, young, funny, comic relief, change of pace, all charm, all charisma. In the scene between Florence Pugh and Haley Sinefield, it seemed as if it seemed as if Florence Pugh stole a little bit of her thunder. It seemed like she was playing the straight man a little bit more. In a relationship between Blackwood and Hawkeye, do you think that's going to be there dynamic? Is Kate going to be the straight man a little bit more? I

think that's a great question to Joe, you know, I love the killing Eve comp. The thing that it made me think of, and I believe TD mentioned this as well when we were chatting about the episode at 1 a.m. It made me think of

Mobius and Loki. And a couple reasons, including one that I think will hopefully provide a answer to your question. First of all, just kind of the confidence inside of the structure of the episode to have two people sit at a table and talk for a long time, right, and know that that will compel us more than, frankly, a bunch of, like, flashy action and choreography would.

But also, because there's something disarming and unmooring about the position that the primary character, that we find the primary character in, and that the primary character finds themselves in. And Kate, in her relationship with Clint, you know, like, one of the things that we've been talking about all season is, is this supposed to be more of a parental bond? And then you have a moment in this episode like Eleanor cleaning the wounds, which makes you think of Clint teaching Kate how to do that.

So you're getting these like parental comps, right? Or is this more of a brother-sister dynamic? Or is it just a friendship that is going to build toward this idea of partnership, right? And with Mobius and Loki, it's like, are these people opposed or can they align? And I think that that is one of the really interesting throughlines so far of phase four of the MCU. Do people who believe, not even what we believe, they believe that they should be. on opposite sides of a given fight, of a given moment in time. How can they find their way to a different dynamic?

And the first thing that they have to do is rethink the way that they think about themselves and each other, right? More so that even the situation, that's the path forward. And so that scene, it's, of course, about Yelina's charm and about Yelina flexing, which she does with just such ease. It's Kate going from being the brash. youngster, the prodigy who's just oozing bravado and is so excited to be standing next to her hero to prove that she should be standing next to him, to being in a defensive position where she needs to argue for the thing that she's believed to be true all her life.

So like the conversation about he's still an Avenger, what does that word even mean, was an idea that was much bigger than just that conversation. And I think you need to have Kate occupying a slightly different headspace than the one that we've seen her into that point for that to really resonate because it's not just about. her journey. It's not just about Yelina's journey. It's not just about Nat's memory. It's about all of those things. But they're bigger than the parts because of how they inform each other. So this question of whether we should let Clint off the hook, which is something we've been talking about, and I think all thinking about, is actually important for the characters to engage with and grapple with. Like, this guy is a serial killer, right? So just because he has a pure intention in his heart, doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about everything he did.

The one thrown stones in this big glasshouse. Come on. Elena, come on, man. Come on, man. You don't know. You don't even know who you killed. You have no idea who you killed. But that's why she, that's actually to me why it hits hard when she's like, I thought one of the lines of the episode was when she said, you're so fond of him.

It tells me you don't really know who he is. Like that was just devastating. And that is, that is a powerful idea, but it's particularly potent because Yelena has had that experience. in her life so many times with other people she realizes she doesn't know and people who realize that about her, right? That's what makes it land. Yeah, no, it does.

But when she was talking all of that, I was thinking to myself, the first time we saw you, you were killing some chick, we don't even know why. Mind control. Whatever. So look, mind control is fine.

Look, the dude, I'll make my case for Ronan right now. I'll be honest with you Ronan did nothing wrong It's not like Ronan Ronan didn't go through And kill up a bunch of people That were just

Ronan was taking out the trash In a world where his family Had got blipped the way If you can use the mind control excuse I feel like my family got blipped away And now I got to take the trash out For the rest of the world excuse But what if everybody

What if everybody thinks that way Then what do we have left? Moyer had her Thanos was right mug And Van has his Ronan was right mug What's the difference between Shield being like, all right, go kill these people? And Ronin's just being like, oh, there's no Shield. I guess I got to do it myself. But hold on, because that question implies that we think Shield is like morally superior in some way.

The whole point of like, I think one of our shared favorites, Winter Soldier, is to interrogate and tear down that very idea, right? That these institutions and these people, if you think that you have the right to act unilaterally and be the sole arbiter, you're wrong. Like, no matter whether you call yourself. The same The same His hands are still around That is the thing Steve Roger said

That's what Cap thinks By the way I just want to I want to make sure here Just before we say on this The mind control excuse Only goes so far for me Because it's also

I rewatched Winter Soldier I keep saying this all the time Buck was just murdering people Left and right It's like throwing people off of buildings blowing people up in planes.

Brainwashed by Hydra. Okay. And my man Ronan is brainwashed by grief. Wow. Thank you, Joe. Y'all my Wanda go out. Joe. Joe's with me.

No, no. She finished my sentence. Joe's with me. Wait, so also, what I don't. I was just compelled by the argument. But I don't know. What I also don't understand is, Yelana. Let's be real.

She's working. with Fontaine. So I'm assuming, because it seems like she got this hint. This was interesting. There's this hint that she meets this black widow who is just like, yeah, Anna.

Yeah, Anna, who is basically making her money by doing black widow stuff, but no longer being with that organization. And it seems like potentially Fontaine is that middle person orchestrating this. Because when after Yelena comes back from the blip, Anna says to her, you can start with contract work.

So yeah, it's like they're inferring at least that she. that she's in this world now. And I'm just like, you, you're talking big shit to be coming down on my man Hawkeye. Like, relax. Relax. That's all I'm saying. But also, I just, I mean, obviously, or hopefully we're going to get this in next week's episode.

But what does Yelena think she knows exactly here? Do you know what I mean? Like, what does she think she knows about what happened in Vormir? How can anyone but Clint know what happened in Vormir? And then we'll, so then we'll only have Clint's word for it. Like, I'm really curious how this. confrontation will go when inevitably they fight next week. You know what I mean?

Because I have to believe that Clint will convince her somehow. I mean, first of all, I loved learning that Clint knows about Yelina. Yes. That was a really emotional moment for me that Nat opened up about that. But also... Agreed. And so then hopefully he can talk to her about things that Nat said about her, and that connection will sort of de-escalate after they kick each other for a little while outside

30 Rock on the eye. But, you know, it's going to be interesting to see how Clint is able to explain what happened when he was the only, you know, unless Red Skull is porting in for a cameo in the finale. My guy is stuck on Vormair. Poor Red Skull. Wait, so this is in true. Space Stone cast purgatory there, you know. In true Midnight Boys fashion, this will be my first detour. I want to ask you guys, when did Yelena start watching sex in the city?

It was not as a child when she was in America. was it when she was a black widow? Do they have like HBO Max? Like how is she watching sex in the city? Oh, Russia has sex in the city. Yeah, but she's brainwashed. You brainwash people watch sex in the city? This is an interesting threat.

So here's the thing. Number one, she can definitely watch sex in the city in Russia. Shout out to Russia. You've besmirched them many times on this podcast today. But if you were brainwashed, can you enjoy TV? That's what I'm saying. like she's brainwashed and she's like so but she has

how far does the brainwash and go did she like have hobbies like she was it like that she was only brainwashed for the missions to be like single minded? Because like she would have to have to have sex in the city probably when she was

doing her black widow thing. That's a good question because she has fantasies of having this life with Natasha so was it while she was brainwashed or right when like after the events of the black widow movie and she's like I want to catch up on some. Yeah, because she mentions that it takes a lot of time to find the widows,

you know, and it's very hard to watch them wake. So maybe the binge watching is the brief reprieve. Do you think she watched Killing Eve? Did she watch Killing Eve? And that's why she's just like, I'm going to do this. This is going to be great. Well, we know that sequence was said in 2018, so that predates. Damn.

With killing Eve, unfortunately. Or does it? When was the first season of that? No, I guess not. Yeah, yeah. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping.

Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Let's talk about Ronan slash Clint. Slash Laura. Now, Clint.

Yeah, 2018 debut. There you know. Clint is officially living with the coolest person in this show. Grills. Shout out, grills, man. Grills is the man. I was a little mad at grills because I was just like, I know these white people did not name this black man girls.

But every single time he shows up, I'm like, Grills is my man. I love this dude. Yeah. Grills. Grills is taking care of Pizza Dog. He's got Pizza Dog doing tricks. I felt so triggered by this scene with Pizza Dog doing a trick.

I'll tell you why. Anybody that's been to my house, Jomey, Steve, no. That Bozeman, my beautiful dog, doesn't listen to me. Jomey, Steve, Bozeman doesn't listen to me. Bozeman listens to Kalika, whatever she says, but Bozeman doesn't listen to me. So I felt Kate when she was trying to get pizza dog to do the dance,

only grills could make them do it. I don't know why animals play favorites like that. It's hurtful sometimes. Maybe he's waiting for Kate to give him a more well-balanced meal, you know, some real nutrition there. Protein. My guy lucky the pizza dog. Van, are you not the alpha? Probably not.

Kleeke is the alpha. That's most definitely true. I don't know if you were saying that and thinking I was going to take that in some sort of way. I was just saying, like that's how you pack animals stay. She texts me right now and says, I need you home at 30 minutes. I'm out. This podcast is. Can we talk for a second about how concerned we are about girls?

There's only one episode left. We always issue the spoiler warning at the top, right? But we're going to get into the comics for a second here. So if you don't want to hear this, hit the fast forward button two to three times. Girls dies in the comic run, right? I feel like if they set this up to have Yelena take out girls, that would not be something people would accept. Oh, no, we go, we marching.

Tracks. I got worried when. Clint showed up to his, you know, this has been an ongoing debate. This has been an ongoing debate between Malamy because I'm just like, they're not going to kill. That's not what the show is not that grim. But now they're in his home.

But they're in his home. I got nervous because of his home, but they can't kill him in the finale and then end the finale with anything that feels. That would be horrible. I'm sure that does not happen. I'll be real with you. I'll just aside.

They better not kill grills next week. I'm just going to keep all the way gangster, man. It's just not a situation where I feel like we can like let grills die. Grills, no. So hashtag protect grills at all gosh. Hashtag free Jack Duques. He did nothing wrong.

Free Jack Duques. My man Jack was set up. He was set up. My heart broke for him. So there's some Ronan theories floating around. Laura as the OG Ronan. Okay. Ooh.

I mean, well, we'll lose. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? So we talked about this last week. We were like, we were weighing Laura as an agent of Shield, like a Bobby Morris comparison, or as a Ronan. And we were definitely last week leaning more towards agent, former agent and away from Ronan. But what she says in this episode when he's basically asking her permission to go full Ronan and she says, no one can understand better than I could. Right.

Do what you have to do and know that I'll always. understand more than anyone else ever could. Yeah, Mal and I both had the same reaction, which was like, oh, shit. We think Laura was Ronan, maybe once. So this was my other theory that I was having. I don't think Clint kill Maya's father. I think it was Laura. That's like, because I was just like, he seems like very...

Does the time of that work? The only problem with that is that, like, she would have had to kill them while the kids were on the farm. Yeah. I feel like that's too late. Maya was an adult when she did it. when he died. But you're right that they keep it a little vague in this episode. There's room for that.

There's room for someone else being in that Ronan suit. Clint says, I was there. But he doesn't say, like, I killed your father outright. So there's room for that. Didn't Laura get blipped away? Wait, was this during the blip when he killed? Yeah. It would have had to have been during the blip.

Oh, yeah. Never mind. Why did it have to be during the blip? During the blip is when Clint took up the Ronan persona. But if it wasn't Clint, it was. wouldn't have to be during the blit. We were assuming it was during the blip because we see Maya as an adult. And as an adult.

I think the other like time frame clue we have is that if I recall last episode when Clint and Kazi have that exchange in Kazi's car, Clint mentions that he was, that Kazi was Williams lieutenant for like four years and then has been working in this new arrangement for a couple years. So that places that event pretty recently. I will say that the Laura reveal is one of the things that I'm like a little worried about heading into the finale. I think they have a lot to explain quickly.

I don't quite understand. Like, obviously, again, the watch has come up here. It seems very clear that the watch is connected to her. I think Joanna, you know, you had the idea last week that it could in some way tie her to Kingpin and maybe that's who she's trying to avoid. That all seems increasingly likely now, almost regardless of the Ronan outcome.

But something like her saying, Clint, we've been so careful, really. I mean, the kids and I are so far away. It's like the kids were just at a Broadway musical with Hawkeye who all jokes about his branding issues aside is one of the most famous people in the universe. Like it's not going to be hard for people to see those kids next to him. They're recognized at dinner, right? They're at a hotel. They're standing on the street, getting into their car in front of them. How hard would it be for people to trace them and track them back to the Barton Farm? So if they really are in hiding and like still at a point where

they cannot risk being tied to him, that just feels like a bizarre storytelling choice. I'll be curious to see how they explain that. Sloppy. And let's be clear, Rogers, the musical is not not to come out of hiding. If you're in deep hiding, don't come out for a bunch, the musical. You're right right about that. I'll say something else.

I'll say something else. Clint also seems to have a very specific fear of Kingpin. That's not, you don't used to hear that, you're not used to hearing that from an Avenger. Think about who he's fought. And like, anytime King Pin gets mentioned,

that's somebody who you don't want to tangle with, that's someone who you don't want to get into it with. Like, so the one guy I hoped wouldn't be involved in it. Like, he seems to have a very specific, almost familiar sort of fear and trepidation centered around Kingpin. Every time he says that, I go, you know, I understand Kingpin's a big deal. Obviously, if you understand the comic world, you understand the world of the Daredevil Netflix show. Kingpin is an incredibly powerful, very scary guy.

But this is coming from an Avenger. Yeah. You bought Thanos. Yeah, who you would think between old. Ultron, Thanos, crazy mind-controlled Loki. Once again, brainwashing, get a little, Loki killed a billion people, but he's our friend now.

You know what I mean? So, like, you wouldn't think that he would have that same sort of fear about a guy who's essentially a street-level villain. It just supports, I think, again, the idea that there's some direct threat to or tie to Lara and threat to his family that would change

the way that he assesses this threat compared to any other. I know I'm not the first person to mention this, but But because the blip really messed with continuity and timeline in the MCU, did it not? Like, this is, we talked about this a couple weeks ago, Mal, when they were outside the doctor's office in, like, Chinatown, when they had to digitally put something in front of a date on a poster. Like in a production still, the date was there. And then they digitally added something to obscure the date. And no Spider-Man, No Way Home, spoilers.

But a similar thing happens in that movie where there's just something in front. of a date in a way where I'm like, commit to your timeline or not or what's going, like, clean it up. Clean it up, guys. Can I ask, when is, when is Hawkeye set? What years this set in the MCU? They said originally they were going to do it

two years after the return, and then they decided to change it to one year after the return. Because Spider-Man far from home is set, what years are? That's eight months after the blip. That's like really like right after almost. So that's 2020?

No, because the blip's 23. So everything since is 23 or 24. 23 or 24, which, all right, for the first time in this podcast, my music brain will be worth something. When Hawkeye is walking through New York City, there's a billboard. And on it is the album, Young Jeezy's Recession 2. And I'm like, Young Jeezy's Recession 2 came out in 2020.

This isn't set in 2020. What is happening? That's why I was like, is this set in 2020? Like, that's just them being lazy, but I'm just like, if this is supposed to be in the future, why is an album in 2020 up on a bill? I'm just being honest, you guys know my takes. You guys, I'm not going to get into it. We're going to save it. You guys know how I feel about this.

I feel like Steve is looking. Steve is looking. Jomi's looking. You guys know how I feel about this. These are the little details that I feel like are going by the wayside, but I want to change the subject real quick. These are the little details that I feel like we're losing. These are the little things. It's getting a little bit too big.

Fikey. Tighten it on up. I hear you. I'm with you. I'm with you. Jack, I just hate the car show system here in America. Free Jack. Free Jack, man.

Jack, so much, I've come to love Jack in his absence. I thought Jack was going to be a bigger deal in this show after the first episode I really did. But he's been a little. delightful hors d'oeuv of character. You know, Jack is taking the fall for Eleanor. Eleanor, to me, is like her evil. She's becoming more and more.

It's like the end of attack of the clones or the beginning of Sith. Just go ahead and turn already. Like, you know what, like we know what's going to happen. Got to kill some younglings first. Oh, she's killed some younglings. It's not. She's killed some of him.

Remember Obi-Wan when he looked at it? He killed younglings. Not the youngling. By the way, shout out to the little dude who was so brave. Does that little guy have a name? The little guy who was so brave

that he tried to stop him. Yeah. Wait, are we talking about the little man who goes up to Anakin like is a little cute? And I'm like talking. No, a little man who jumps out at the end who jumps out at the end.

No! Oh, yeah. Anakin, you bastard. Once again, brainwashing now. Brainwashing is an excuse for anyone. He comes back and it's all gravy. That's what you got to say, brainwashing. So Jack is a show telegraph and a little too clearly what's happening in regards to Jack and what happened with Eleanor. Is it a bad thing that it seems clear that Jack, what his character is, that there's not more intrigue surrounding it?

Jack, I think, is a pretty good red herring. The Eleanor stuff, I'm just like, It feels so obvious that I'm just like, well, just show it to us earlier than this, if it's so obvious that she's the villain. And I was thinking about this. Like, we'll talk about the Kingpin reveal, of course. But like this idea of a kind of obvious villain that's just hanging out the whole time and you're like, it's them. It's them. That was Agatha Agnes on Wanda Vision. But at least when she was revealed, we got a banging song to go with it.

You know what I mean? So we were just like, this is great. I did know that it was her all along. but I'm singing about it now, so that's fine. And in this, I'm just sort of like, the end of this episode just felt very like, yeah, we know, we know, we know, we know, come on, let's go. I'm sorry. Hold on for a second.

I got to do this. You guys knew it was Agatha all along? Yes. Oh, of course. I honestly didn't. This was pre-ringerverse, so we've never talked about this together. It was pre-Ringerverse. I honestly, I honestly didn't.

I was honestly like, oh, I did not think that. I honestly didn't. Am I the ring or verse dunce? No. We should have a midnight, we should have a midnight dunce. Hey, Steve, write this down. We're going to have a midnight dunts. Oh, my God.

I'll be the midnight dunts. I really, I was like, oh shit. I really didn't, I didn't think it was. We never talked about this. I didn't think it was. Y'all knew all along. Y'all knew it was. You were embarrassing us in front of the house of bar.

No, no, no, no. I think you've been podcasting with us, and we were in our, like, so deep in our nerdship, we're like, that brooch is obviously the same brooch that Agatha Harkness wore in the comics. Like, you'd be, you'd be prepped and ready to go. Yeah, but I didn't think that they were, I knew that it was Agatha. I knew that she was Agatha Hardness, but I didn't think that she was the evil behind the show. I knew that she was Akatha Hartton. You're like, it's Mephisto. Yeah, for sure. I for sure thought it was Mephisto. Every single. thing I bought hook, line, and sinker. I for sure thought it was Mephisto. I thought Rerichers was coming. I thought the whole thing, I for sure.

Did you think the sentinels were coming? Get off of me. That's enough. Did you think, uh, I thought the sentinels were coming in that show? Yes. Once we were, wait. Chalmy is so disgusting with all of us right now. My midnight, my, my, my Midnight Dunst moment was when I thought that Al Pacino was going to play Mephisto.

Not only Mifista was coming, but I bought into that whole. Paul Bettney, I get to work with an actor I really admire thing. And I was like, Pacino. Puccino is going to be in a Marvel show. That would be great. I lost my mind. Lost my mind. Yeah.

So they're heavily telegraphing the Eleanor situation, obviously. And we're all on board. We don't feel like it's taking anything away from the show that this is being so heavily telegraphed. It's a punch we see coming from Amalala. I mean, is it, but like in the first episode, what I find interesting is that Eleanor, you learn that she comes from humble beginnings. Let's put it that way.

And that makes the Kingpin connection to me mean a little bit more because I'm like, oh, like, I don't know if she was running around in these streets, but obviously there's a connection there. And I'm starting to think, I'm thinking about, I don't know what episode it was about, but there's someone that's implanted with the track suit mafia. That's how they get some of the information, right? When like Clint calls Laura. I think it's obvious who that is too.

Who? Kazi, right? I don't think it's Kazi. Wait, well, there are a couple different things because I think Kazi, they're clearly setting up Kasi to be the informant. The informant. But there was a way that they got information

because there was somebody who was learning Russian, running a lot. I thought that was Laura. I perceived that as Laura. She had used whatever Mockingbird or Shield or Ronan resources and skills are at her disposal to sleuth and find that out.

Maybe it's an informant who was telling her that. But I thought you could just read that as she's speaking in code, right? Like she's just using these because the kids are there, right? With like the holiday kitchen celebration. I thought she was just kind of,

you could at least read it as her just speaking in code to Clint to kind of convey that message to him. That's how I read it. But like the Eleanor thing, I think, to your point, to your really good point, Charles, is like I think it's really interesting because when she is comforting,

like I believe that whatever Eleanor is doing, she's doing it because she believes she needs to build this life for Kate. I mean, do they need that super fancy fancy penthouse? No. But, like, I genuinely believe that when whatever it was that Derek did, Derek Bishop did, and I'm still convinced that he's alive somewhere. But whatever it is that he did to get them in finding.

The fact that we got to mention, again, that he was dead made me more certain that he'll be. Yeah. Oh, he's coming back. He's coming back. But, like, whatever he did to put them in dire financial straits, she's like, okay, I'll roll up my sleep. What do I got to do? We're all red all the time and be evil.

Okay to protect my family. Sure. I'll do that. Do you think that's why Jack's uncle, he was very distrustful of her? And it might be two reasons because she might be evil or she has this capacity to be a social climber to get what she means by any means necessary because she's not born from wealth.

I don't think they're mutually exclusive. But I think like one of the things that is interesting, and compelling to think about to the question of whether it feels. I do think a lot of the reveals have been telegraphed, but almost like deliberately so, which I think is interesting.

Like it seems like they are, it's just a different approach to the show certainly contrasted to something like, okay, here's this massive reveal in the low-key finale. And of course, people have been speculating and wondering and theorizing, but that was just this new element

that was like this shock and delight, right? Whereas from the, the, the, the pinch of the cheek, all the talk about uncle and the big guy. Like, we've been building toward this Kingpin clarity in a way where it felt inevitable, right, more than possible. And similarly with Eleanor, like, I think she and Kate have been on these parallel paths since the Battle of New York.

And if you think back into, like, the first episode at Derek's possibly faux funeral, right, where Kate is basically declaring that she needs to learn how to protect them. And Eleanor says to her, in essence, like, that's my job, right? And we've had a lot of moments from Eleanor since where whether she's talking to Clint or to Kate, she's saying like, you're not a superhero. And I think so to your point, Joe, yes, there is this actual, like, pure desire to protect and care for her daughter and her family. She says to Kate in this episode, like, you're the only thing that matters to me. And I think that she believes her.

She believes that when she says it. Yeah. I think there will come a conflict in the finale where she has to confront whether that is true. Because the thing that she has built, the life that she has propped up in order to preserve. Kate and their family is in direct opposition, right? Like she loves Kate and wants to protect her. The thing that she has done in order to give Kate this life is something that Kate and Clint are going to try to tear down.

What choice will Eleanor make? And to be honest with you, I think, and I think in terms of the most evil, I think that's more of a driving factor and the more motivation behind her wanting Kate not to be in this than to keep Kate safe. She doesn't want, she knows that Kate being involved with Clint, Kate getting all of this stuff, is a direct beeline to her being found out.

Absolutely. And to things really getting, also not for nothing, she knows how dangerous Kingpin can be. So it's a direct beeline to her being found out, to Kate being put in the harm's way, to all of the threads kind of coming away.

But I think the last thing you want if you're in that situation is for your kid to know. Your kid who is built up their entire life. By the way, maybe do something to curb this when she's like 10. You know? Maybe do something. She keeps saying she wants to be an Avenger and be an Avenger or be an Avenger. Maybe say, hey, the Avengers suck.

Let's go to Europe for the whole summer and you find something else to do. Maybe curb this earlier. But there's also, you know, when someone has been that deep into the bullshit that long, they also don't want to be found out. And to your point, I'm not sure which one it is more, but I think that's the most interesting thing about like the next episode

is what's going to happen with that particular character. Yeah, like when Eleanor... Sorry, Joe. When Eleanor says to Kate in this episode, like sometimes the paths were on, they wind around us in ways that we never would have expected. All you can do is keep moving forward, even on days when honestly it all just kind of feels like shit.

Like, I got mild, but whenever someone, someone talks about moving forward. I got like a Stanis Barathean vibe from that, right? Like we go forward, only forward. It's like, well, how did that end up, right? God damn, Stam. And so she's, she's theoretically talking to Kate about Kate's choices and Kate's wife in that moment, but she's projecting. She's talking about her own path. And so when Armand is saying in that overheard sequence, like, I have powerful friends too and what is he discovered about her? Like, she doesn't want to shatter that illusion for Kate because even though I'm sure there's a part of her that is immensely proud and actually would love to have the credit for this thing that she has achieved in this web that she has managed to weave.

Oh, if Kate would have come in, if Kate stays in the fold and keeps being at Bishop Security, eventually she knows everything. Well, that, I think is Eleanor's ambition for her. Yeah, I mean, that's what, yeah. Right. She wants her to come into the family business, for sure. Like, you have, she keeps reiterating, like, you have this path, right? You know, finish school, come into the family business. Also, like, the Sloan reveal was like one computer click away. Like, if you're really trying to keep things secret, like, don't give your kid your password

and leave your laptop sitting on the dining room table. But I don't know. Like, I loved that scene last week where Kate was watching Jack and Eleanor dance. And, like, I don't know. I was saying to jail last week, like, my parents are divorced, so I always view scenes like that through like, child of divorce. Same here. It's like, wow, that moment where you see that your parents have, like, found

love and can be happy with other people is like really meaningful thing in your life. And now you're like, Eleanor just fucking sent Jack out to the wolves. And like our guy is just like, I've never worked a day in my life. Like, I'll be back. It's, is that affection for him even real? Because the thing that Kate felt there was like as much as she doesn't trust Jack and didn't want to welcome him into their family, she was delighted to see her mom happy. Yeah, because she's that.

Is that all a fabrication? because what will that call into question then? See, that's also a testament to Kate's character because we all watch these movies, right? And we watch these movies. And even in real life, we see kids. Like, I've had to tell cousins and nephews that see their mom with somebody new.

And it goes, nah, man, I can't handle the fact that this dude was like banging my mom or whatever. All right. It's true. That's what they say. That's not what my little cousin actually said. He said something else. But I cleaned it up and I'm like,

and I look at him, I'm like, hey, this is starting to become a you thing. Stop putting you before her happiness. Look at her. They out there, back that ass up is playing. They're on the dance floor. All right. Listen to Louisiana.

Like, she cut up. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? She's cutting up. Like, she's true. It's true. This was happened in Baton Rouge. Like, I'm like, I'm like, yo.

Wait, was back that ass up really play? Black, this is a true story. My little cousin. This is a true. It's a true story. It's a true story. So my little cousin, so my aunt, she's adopted. She's a lot younger than my mom in them.

She's only about maybe 10 years older than me. I may be like 26 or 27, right? And we're at a family function. She brings a new guy. My little cousin is there, right? He's very upset about the fact that his mom is out there cutting up with this guy. And we all, we all think it's. It's funny, right?

Hey, hey, team, go ahead, go. He's like, I can't believe this guy is like with my mom and stuff. I'm like, yo, look how happy she is. At Juvenile got her acting crazy. Look how happy she is. Look how happy. Stop putting yourself in front of her happiness. Van.

This guy was a postman. They're still married today. He was a mail carrier. Great guy. Van. Everybody else she did, it was an adult boy. Let me clear. What?

You would want to see your mom on the dance for it with a mailman. Oh, hold. Hold on. Well, your whole family is like, this got a funny piece. I got to say something real quick. I want nothing more. But you want to watch it. For my mom, be careful.

I want nothing more. For my mom to find love and happiness with whomever. Well, everyone's laughing at you. It don't matter. I'm not going to laugh now. Stop the cap. So anyway, stop the cap. I think that was a beautiful.

sentiment from Van. I want nothing more from my mom to find a lot of a lot of habit but he's, he's playing to the crowd a little bit.

I said, the U.S. Postal Service are heroes. The U.S.PS, the mailmen of this, male carriers

this country are heroes. They got, they had benefits, they had a little baby. I love metal men. And they, you know, but anyway, I'm saying,

we, can I, can I, can I, yes, and something that Van said earlier? Yes.

Which is like, you were saying the thing that you were most interested to see in the finale is how this Kate and Eleanor thing shakes out, right? Yeah, that's to me the last unknown threat.

Right, and Mal and I have been talking about this a lot too, that like we feel like Eleanor, like, Kingpin's here. We're going to talk about that. Kingpin's here. Yelena's here. Maya's still running around. Like, all this stuff is happening. But we care so much about this Eleanor stuff because that's the emotional core of this.

What this is going to do to Kate, all of that. And so the question for the finale I mean this is a longer episode than we've been getting, right? This is like in the 40-something minute range. We don't know how long the finale is going to be, but like I just need them to clear the decks for Vera Farminga to do her shit and for the Eleanor stuff to be really central

to the finale. Do you know what you mean? There's a lot of stuff that they have to do. There's a lot. Is she a madame mask? We speculated about that. I think it's definitely possible Do you think it's getting closer now with the last episode, Kate and her having to go?

I don't think she's going to, like, put a mask on. But I think it's like one of those things where like grills is grills, but not grills. Do you know what I mean? Like, for all intents and purposes. She could take on a lot of that role. Yeah, yeah. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP.

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behind every bite. Borshead. Committed to craft since 1905. Let's talk about Echo. Okay. Echo? Good character.

With everything else that's going on, I'll just start off with a very broad question. That's actually not here. With everything else that's going on, is Echo's story, her art, swept away. Is she as central

to the show now as you thought she was going to be when she was first introduced? I don't know if it misalines with my expectations, but I think something that Mel and I talked about last week is we were like, we kind of wanted some of this echo stuff

to maybe just save it for her series because it didn't feel like there was enough room for her to learn about her dad and Kingpin and the betrayal and all that sort of stuff. And we're like, maybe they'll just shove that all over into her own damn spin-off, which she's getting.

But no, they went ahead and did it in this episode. And I like, I've always loved the parallels that they've done between Kate and Echo. Like, in this episode, you get Eleanor cleaning Kate's wounds and Kasey cleaning her wounds. And both of them have betrayed them. You know? The arms and the tats. Oh, an unnecessarily sleeveless moment from Kasi. What do we say?

It was unnecessary? No, I loved it. But I love those constant parallels between those. two women. And I love when Clint was talking to Echo in the parking in the car dealership, I was just like, yeah, I do like watching

Jeremy Renner try to be nice to young women and like tell them how to be better people in this world. Like that is a dynamic I like. Wait, really? I don't want Clint Barron giving any young women any advice. He was telling her to, you know,

Jeremy Renner needs to chill. Don't let vengeance overtake her. Don't become a weapon. Don't become a Clint Barton, to be fair, and this has always been, remember the pep talk he gave Wanda? Yeah. Wanda, she was a scared little most powerful person in the whole show, and then she walked out of that door in Avenger.

So this is kind of Clint being Clint. This is what Clint is. You know what? I'm being a little harsh on Jeremy Rinder. You're right, man. No, we're not talking about Jeremy Rinder. We're talking about Clint Barter. No quarter for...

Echo thoughts. I think it's a good question, and it's like, again, one of the things where there's a little bit of dissonance here because when the show succeeds, it ends up almost becoming a new challenge. Like, new characters are introduced and we're compelled by them and we want to spend time with them. Plot lines are actually working, and then it becomes like a ratio and calibration question. Suddenly there are five, six, seven storylines we really are invested in and want to have, like, clear it out in the finale room for. You can't do that for everything. So I think Echo is of a piece in a way that, again, I think is like a credit to the show. But, and I, I'm just, you know, like I record two-hour podcasts, reread and re-watch the same shows 500 times. Nobody should listen to me about this. I don't know what I'm talking about. This is why I would watch like 500 hours of these things instead of just six episodes because I actually want more time. I do, I think that the six episode run is smart and it gives us like a well-crafted, contained experience. where there's still more room to play than there is in the movies.

But I think it's interesting that when we started the Disney Plus experience, we were all like, wow, we have so much more time with these characters. And now very quickly just a few shows in, we're like, is there enough room for everything they're trying to do? And I wonder what the ultimate kind of like math of that will be when everything is both or all at once, its own experience. This is Hawkeye. This is this show.

It is also the potential conclusion of Clint Barton's journey. a continuation at the beginning of phase four of this backward-looking reflection on the Infinity saga, how that grief and trauma and how those choices and the consequences from them carry over. And it is an on-ramp

for a handful of new characters who will be incredibly consequential to the MCU moving forward. So because of that, I'm okay with getting less of Echo here because I know, like as a fan watching the show, I know that we will get Echo the series. We will get that time.

But also, like, we get such an amazing episode with her in the third episode. And then, yeah, when she leaves from the roof and drives away here, I'm like, man, I want to see a little more. So you have the rational part in your mind that knows it's coming. And then you have your heart where you're like, I just want to spend more time with every character. Okay. But you say like when the thing is going to be their own thing. But I don't think anything in Marvel is ever going to be its own thing ever again. We're all like in the Ultron space where we're trying to lift off and run a story at the same time. So like for the Echo series, like a lot of people think and like since Kingpin is here, we can talk about this, like that that might be. kind of a soft like daredevil. Yeah. Like that's a daredevil thing. So it's not just going to be like Echo Story. It's going to be like all the daredevil stuff maybe in there too. And so it's like, they're all trying to do a lot of things. And sometimes the ingredients are balanced like exquisitely. And sometimes you're a little like, you know, end of Wanda Vision where there's like all these like

things right at the end of Wanda vision where you're like, and we're launching to the marvels and we're launching to some scroll stuff and we're doing this. And it's like, okay, can we just focus on this story that we're watching here. Joe, Joe, I'm telling you, Joe. Once again, I'll do it again. Charles is looking at me. I mean, Steve's looking at me.

I'm telling you, Joe, that's going to become an issue. Do less. You're really trying to get this takeoff, man. I'm not getting to take off. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I'm not getting the take off. I'm telling you.

Do less. Do less. Do just a little bit less. Not necessarily that it's, it's, it's, completely applicable here. I think it's kind of applicable here, but I think do less,

absolutely fantastic mantra for Marvel going forward. Do a little bit less. Mallory's like, do more. Let me on for a counterpoint. And we'll use the echo question that you asked as the container for assessing this. Echo and Kazi, right? We have the exchange,

we have a couple key exchanges here. We have the exchange between Clint, and Maya about the informant, right? I was here that night, tipped off by informant, works for your boss. Yes, your boss, you're lying. Your boss wanted your father dead.

Now he's using you. Cut off. Okay. And then Echo brings this up with Kazi. We are meant to infer, certainly, that Kazi, who was not there, but we know it was Williams number two at the time, is the informant,

whether that ends up being true or not. We'll see, but that's what we're thinking right now. we have enough time. They've done less or could do even less to set up the plot for that. Like the eventual reveal, which we will get in the finale, the plot mechanics are in place

for us to learn something meaningful about William, Maya, Kazi, Kingpin, Eleanor, Clint, Laura, and Kate because of that. So in that sense, it's well structured. I would argue that the thing we're missing there, even though I have, again, I have been compelled by the Kazi Maya bond

and like these clear indications that they have a lot of, lot of history together, whether it's the young Kazi being in the martial arts flashback or just all of these allusions to their shared history. But like what exactly is that shared history and what exactly is the substance of their relationship

together that makes this such a meaningful bond? That makes him the only person that she is willing to trust and confide in, right? And how much of what he's doing is an active effort to just protect himself. I'll help you kill Ronan, sure, but then we have to stop. Is that because Ronan could reveal his role in all

this? Like, if we had a little more time to know what their history was, it would just be even more impactful. Now, maybe we'll get that down the road. I assume we will. And I guess to Joe's point, like, and this is the nature of comic book storytelling, it's all intertwined all the time, right? And you're always building and enhancing your understanding of events that you've already experienced on the screen or on the page. But would it be a bad thing to have spent more time with Kazi at this point and understand what their dynamic is? Wouldn't it just make it more powerful when she learns the truth in the finale? So I think the answer to that question is, no, it wouldn't have been a bad thing.

But I think the question that I ask is, do we, like, need it? And what I start to ask myself is, like, what's the central story that we're telling here and how do all of these threads eventually get us to the point to where there's, like, a nice bow tide, right? Because for me, looking at it, you only have 43 minutes. Like this is yet another episode of Hawkeye that when it went off, I was like, wait, what? Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like it's over? And now they have a tremendous amount of work to do in a finale that to me, to me, some of the heavy lifting that they've, and they always do this, by the way. They always get, in the last couple of shows, they always get to a finale to where we're like, all right, well, shit, they got so much to do. they have so much work to do and then by and large we come away from these finale feeling played like if we're being honest

did the Wanda Vision finale pay off in the way that we thought it was going to not really to me at least did the Falcon to Werener Soldier finale give us not really they leave themselves with too much work to do in the end it's something

this show this might be different we have to talk about Kingpin, but like, it's tough to execute. And I have, and I'm being honest, and I haven't seen the execution be flawless or even be, in some cases, satisfactory besides Loki.

Loki, which actually delivered. But Loki had a season two plan, which was like, gave them that room. I will agree with Van for the only time of this podcast where I think TV and movies, movies are completely different. where in movies you still feel like you got a full meal because the stinger at the end

is like the dessert to keep you coming back for more. In the TV shows, it's like, dog, every episode is a backdoor pilot for something else. And I feel like sometimes that gets, there's so little Clint in this that I'm just like, man, if this is the last time we see Clint, I don't know if that was a great use of six episodes because I know I'm going to get Kate,

I know I'm going to get Yelena, I know I'm going to get Kingpin. But this is still echo, but this is still a Clint story. And I'm just like, can they put a bow tie on this in the next 45 minutes? Like, I'm nervous. Maybe they'll pull it off, and I hope they do. But I think occasionally when we're trying to balance the ingredients of the recipe, like certain threads gets dropped that don't really matter,

but certain threads get dropped that bother me. And like, it bothers me that no one even mentions the watch in this episode. Like, I know we're not done with the watch. They mentioned it one time. Yeah, you're right, you're right. But like, we don't see it. Like, Kate had it in theory at the end of last week's episode. And Clint doesn't say to Kate, where's the watch?

Right? He mentions it to Laura, but he's not like, where's the watch? The watch that I was so desperate for last week. Who has hands on it right now? I think we're actually all making the same point, which is there's a lot to wrap up in the finale. We're just presenting different pathways for ensuring that could be done successfully. One pathway is put fewer things into the pot of macaroni and cheese. in the first place, right?

And one path is get a bigger pot so that you can put in everything you want. Or the third, drizzle some hot sauce all over the mac and cheese. Again, just an incredible sequence. I loved that so much. Wait, also, wait, we need to bring up very quickly. I'll be honest with you.

You know what I loved about that scene more than anything? Anybody that lives with somebody else that's like a food hawk loves the, hey, are you finished? Are you what, hey, you finished? Am I? It's like, it's like, I finished my food

and then I'm like, and she'll be, hey, don't look over here. And I'm like, all right, you're picking at it. You're not really. And then after a while, it just becomes like, here, there you go. And now I, I, and then you put saracha all over it.

Put sarahs. And now I've been repaid carmically because now I can't eat around Bozeman. Bozeman does the same thing to me. Me just sits there. Just sits there waiting. Waited and I'll go wash the food off because I'm very,

I don't want him to eat these seasonings and stuff like that. Then I give it to him. Really quickly, though, what is wrong with Kate only having one fork in her apartment? Like she can afford more forks. Like Yelena comes from nothing. She was dirt poor. Like she'd come from Mother Russia.

She had to eat deer. She said she had to eat deer. Rain deer. It's tough. You need to braze it. Yeah. I'm just saying like if Yelena even knows like, come on, we had nothing and we even got silverware, like, what is wrong with Kate? Kate looks bad in this episode. Like, her clothes look terrible and Yelina's came up. Like she looks fresh as hell. Kate is very focused on her ambitions and I would say it's clear from this that she's not entertaining very often. It's a wealth rebellion thing.

Like kids are wealthiest all the time where they're like, I don't know. That's a pretty nice loft. In your NYC loft department where you have an archery range? That's a pretty nice loft. True. She got an archery range in her crew. I'm not going to argue, but she didn't, like, furnish it with crate and barrel. That's very true. Crate and barrel is very true.

Okay, let's talk about king pin. Okay. All right, boy. So let's talk about kingpin. So I just want to say this real quick before we talk about kingpin. Charles doesn't like it. All right, relax. Vincent Donofrio's kingpin.

to me is a top five villain ever. Stop the cap. He was the reason, don't play. He was fantastic. Top five? Don't play. Top five in Marvel or top five ever? I would say.

I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to be honest with you. Don't, don't play. I'm going to be honest with you. Play stop the cap. He said ever. I'll be, I'll be, don't play. Stop the cap.

So, so let me tell you why, though. I even said this then. there's not a more fully formed, a more understandable, or more emotionally relatable. Like he, they, almost more than Daredevil,

they made you understand why Kingpin was Kingpin, how Kingpin became Kingpin. And also, they did it without completely demonizing a ruthless, vicious underworld boss. Like you completely understand Kingpin, I thought he was one of

the best constructed characters, one of the best constructed villains ever. It wasn't just like, hey, I want to fuck everything up. They took you through his childhood. They just did such an amazing, intimate job of building that character brick by brick. That's cool, but you said top five. Van.

Like a top five villain to me, I can't think of many villains that they put together better. I'll give you top five Marvel. I'll give you, I will put him in top of them. I'm talking about Marvel. I'm talking about Marvel. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't backtrack.

Don't back track. You didn't say Marvel. No, no, no. No, what I meant, what I meant villains, I was talking about, obviously, in the MCU. All right.

That's a different conversation. But Jomey's looking at me like he agrees. Like you said, ever. You didn't say Marvel. Y'all just trying to get at the kid now. That's okay. That's okay.

He's phenomenal. But let's revisit this and do a full Marvel villain, like, draft debate. Like, come on. Not better than Kilmonger. he's better than Thanos, yeah. I think he's better than Thanos.

Better than Thanos? By the way, I also think he's buried in Kilmonger. All right. I do. All right. You guys, like, I think he's buried. I think he's buried in Kilmonger.

Can I tell you my favorite Galaxy Brain Reddit theory about why Kingpin was revealed the way he was revealed in this episode? What? Hmm. I love it when, like, the Redditors eat their, I love them, bless them, when they eat their own tail, which is this. They were like, um, what if this is Kevin Feigy, getting back at us for like all the times that we've discovered things via

a blurry cell phone photo on the internet. And this is a meta-commentary about how underwhelming that is to see the intro of something on a blurry cell phone photo. That's funny. That's funny. That's funny.

What do we think about Kingpin and his involvement? What does this mean? We finally get it. It's Kingpin. By the way, it didn't look like super fat comic Kingpin. It looked like the same Kingpin from...

I told you it wasn't going to be super fat. That's what they said. Who said it? Who is that? The Redditors? The they. Where are you getting your information from me? That's enough.

So yeah, Kingpin, what does this mean? He's here. Will Kingpin be a major, major force in the next episode, or will he be more of a shadow, sort of the way he's been? So we're going to get a Kingpin heavy episode in the finale. What do you guys think? I think I know where it's gone. I think there's a in the Hawkeye run, I haven't read it in a while, but they have that gala in it where all the super villains convene.

And I think Kingpin's going to be there, Kazi's going to be there, Echo's going to be there, all of these people are going to be there. I don't think Kingpin is going to be the center of it, but I do think that we're going to learn just by him being there that what his connection is to this entire network of nefarious people. I think that like, you know, in addition to the text message, thumbnail of a blurry video screenshot, just iconic stuff, we also got that looming specter in the end credits, where we see Kingpin's outline looming, you know, over the story, over the city, all of these things that we would expect from Kingpin. I think that this connects to a lot of what we've been talking

about today about the finale and how much room there's to play. So whether he's like a central, central figure, I don't know. That would, there's, on the one hand, like there's not a lot of time for that, and it would surprise me. On the other hand, I never would have predicted that he who remains

would have been the main character and the finale of Loki in terms of just actual like runtime, right? I was like, that'll be a stinger. So I could see any number of outcomes. The thing I'm most interested in is how much of this is a portal to echo the broader daredevil character set in universe coming into the MCU and how much of this is about explaining what's happening here because it's not just explaining the Kingpin Eleanor dynamic.

Are they partners? Are they heads of like their respective crime syndicates? And to your point, Charles, they have come together for like a shared goal here or are they actually in it fully together all the time? What if she's running him? That could be the case. Like what's the exact pecking order? There's been a lot of talk about hierarchies throughout the show.

was he blipped? And also... Was he blipped? But how does Val come into play? Right. Because if we get back to the Val theorizing, we talk so much about Thunderbolts, the possibility of, like, Leviathan.

So is that still happening? Is there going to be a Thunderbolt's connection here in terms of how all of these players come together? Then you end up talking about, like, US agent. That's like a really big character set to deal with. That's what I don't want to talk about right now, John Walker. Yeah. So I think...

But exactly. But because we are able to deduce that there's this Val connection, because of Yelena's presence, it does open up, like, really myriad possibilities for how big they could go. I think that because the show has been so anchored in this intimate focus on these relationships and these people's lives,

it will remain that way in the finale, and maybe at the very end, it pans out to whatever this bigger network is. Can I talk about who I think the real villain, definitely the real villain of the show is? Capitalism? Always. Always humming along in the background.

But number two is our friend Eleanor Bishop, not because of whatever else we've seen or do. But because it seems, given the countdown clock, it seems that her Bishop Christmas party is on Christmas Day itself, which is a crime. Her non-denominational what is going on? That's terrible. It's a holiday party on. No, that's a crime. against your employees. So,

terrible. I'm not coming. It's like getting married on a football weekend. That's what I was going to ask. Do you think Laura is coming? Can't do it. Story.

LSU, Ole Miss 2003, LSU march into a national championship. Friends getting married. LSU's going to play Old Miss. Eli Manning. You got to watch the game. I'm not coming.

Of course not. Wait, how close were you to this friend? Don't matter. Wow. I'm a fan on this one. Was it a top five? Was it a top five friend? Don't matter.

I'm not coming. I admit it. Was it a top five friend? Was it Wilson Fisk? No. No. I'm just like, hey, guess what? Like, bro, seriously?

I'm like, hey, I'm not coming to that shit. Just be real with you. Like, there's like, that's your fault. Wait, did he know enough? I came to the reception. I came to the reception, which was later. Was he pissed? Not really.

But because, but the parents were. But not really. Don't be an asshole. Were you in the wedding party? Uh, I would have. been like oh shit like don't be a asshole you know

you know me don't be an asshole don't be an asshole don't be an ass it's not going to happen like I come to reception I'm not doing it you know it's Saturday it's fucking fall in Louisiana yeah whatever

Mal should we take our bet to the midnight court oh yeah we need a verdict the boys settle it all right go ahead lay it out Joe lay out the bet we said a bet yesterday

and I said kingpin in this episode yes or no Mal says no, I say yes. We've got dinner. Dinner is on the line here. Does a photo count? Absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. Here's my arguments to the contrary. I'm happy to lose the bet because really I went either way, dinner with Joe. What a treat. But I would just posit that with all of the mentions of the big guy and uncle, the little pinch of the cheek, the clear of Vincentonofrio laugh. We had gotten things akin to this already. Now, of course, is it a full-on picture

and is it someone saying the word Kingpin? No. But still, has he been in a scene acting? No. I want him at a potter with Jack before it really counts. But I'm willing to say it. I'm just saying you should have set out those parameters of that bet. I think there's a case for a draw.

But it's okay. Follow up. Follow up, his name is in the closing credits this week, which it hasn't been before. I think Joe gets this one. I think Joe gets this one. All right. Do you want to do, you win?

Live and on air, a double or nothing bet. Oh. Let's see. How's the working title. Let's get me. Steve. I mean, Steve. Did you coordinate that?

The timing of the music and the question was impeccable. Let's do it. Double or not. I want to hear it. What is it? Grill's Death Watch. I say no They can't

It would just be It would be wrong It would be awful Do you have another Another bet that you want to make For the finale? I'm saying my bet is no That they will not

They will not Yeah but I'm not betting the other side Of that I'm not saying You fucking kicked right off Twitter Next thing you know Like Sean King Will be hitting you up

Like on Twitter Like you're putting the You know like you get kicked I'm gonna bet That the black guy will die Right away, I have Dore and all of them on your line. We've just been worried about him all season. I've been saying they couldn't kill him.

Okay. Mal wasn't sure, but we both agree now it's a no. So where, so is there anything else in the finale, Mal that you want to bet on? So could you bet on fight scene with Vera Farmiga? Will she get down? Oh. Fight scene or like Swordsman fight scene. Swordsman fight scene I think we'll get.

We're going to get a swordsman fight scene. But are we going to get Vera Farming. full on in a showdown with Kate. I think we will see her fight. Will we see her fight? I'm not so sure. I think no. I think yes.

Physically. She will physically fight? Double or nothing. Okay. Let's just make this bad. I don't know. I will make my case right now. I think she will obviously be revealed in full as the as the puppeteer.

But I'm with Joe. I think there's going to be. like some sort of action set piece fight with Eleanor. I think there will be an action set piece and it will be at her party because there's so much in the trailer that basically confirms that in terms of the setting. I do not think she will actually fight.

I think she will observe from the shadows. I think we're going to find out she's more dangerous than we thought she was. And that's why she's going to do some kind of crazy move or something. I could see it. She was there for all the training. Laura, will she show up at this party? as mockingbird or as like a roan in time.

Doesn't Laura, doesn't Laura have to come? Like she has, it's Christmas Day. Like, doesn't Laura have to get involved at some point? I think, I don't know.

Clint's whole goal is getting back to the farm, you know? He said, I thought at one point they might take the action to the farm in the end. I think that falls into there's not enough time anymore,

but maybe. I'm just trying to imagine Clint and Kate like sitting there anxiously on the flight back. Here's what should happen. And everybody should go to the farm. Pizza dog should finally get his name lucky. We got a little tease.

Hey, you know, I have a good name for the dog. And then everybody should sit around and talk about how you shouldn't put mayo on a hot dog and how Nate's middle name is named after Pietro and how that's really weird. All right. What about ketchup? So I have one last question about this before we go into the finale. There's one victim in this entire show that we haven't talked about. That's Clint's daughter.

I'll tell you why. Pre-blip, Clint was clearly, clearly training his little girl. Uncle crappy arrow, hot guy. Not going to happen now. Now, Daddy got a new friend. He's got a new friend of show. Now, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, can you come about and shoot with me? No.

Maybe the final scene will be Kate and Lila. Maybe it will, but maybe it will. Target practice, split in the wood and arrow right in the middle, proven it can be done. I'm pre-crying. You guys ever see Rocky? You guys ever see Rocky Five? Where Rocky starts training Tommy to Duke Morrison,

yet his own son wants to learn how to box. He doesn't even care. And then a kid from entourage is beating them up at school every day. I feel bad for Clint's daughter, man. She hadn't got any aerod training. Kay Bish didn't even need it. She got a Joe try to say she poor. She got a whole archery range in her crib.

I said she's performing poverty. By the way. That's a rich kid. thing to perform poverty. Last thing I'll say, I'll tell you why I used to love those kids. I used to love those kids because, like, I knew a kid that was super rich, and he would be, he hated the fact that he was super rich,

but we loved it. So he'd be like, I don't even care about my dad's money. I'd be like, all right, bro, just come bring the Mercedes over and then we're going to go out of town. Yeah, we hate it too. It sucks. Let's go, man. Like, we got our light's about to get cut off.

We don't give a fuck what's going on. We don't know. We're like, we don't care. We ain't got time. The time of rich was he really quick. Oh, my, no, he was dumb rich. Dumb rich as if, like, parents giving $200 million donation to places and stuff. He was stupid rich.

Stupid rich. But how many, how many forks did he have? Not sure. Not sure. Of course that he went to college and forgot about us, but I still remember you, though. I know how many times when you were slumming it. All right, that's enough. Do you guys have any final thoughts?

Any final thoughts leading into the finale? Is there any bold predictions that any of you want to make? Mephisto's coming. We're definitely going to see the costume reveals, right? The new costumes. Who is that when girls dies? Girls dies when he hands on the costumes. No.

Oh, God. Protect girls. And I win the bet. I love a bet. Thanks for playing, Mal. Because I'm a big fan of bets. Mal, any big thoughts for the finale? You know, I think we've covered them.

I think that the Kingpin entering the fold, the confrontation between Ellenor and Kate, Kate really having to confront who her mother is and what that means. The idea of these parallel family reveals with us learning more about Eleanor, Maya learning the truth about the informant, perhaps Kazi, and everything that happened with her father and us learning more about Laura. So somebody from every family we will learn more about in the finale. And my beautiful darling boy, lucky the pizza dog, will get his name and hopefully a well-balanced meal. What if Yelena gets to meet Lucky? She did mention in this episode

that Kate earned some bonus points with her for saving the dog, going into traffic to save the dog. Obviously we know that Yelena has her dog, Fannie. Animal lover. Pit Avengers assemble! There you go. That's my prediction. There's our stinger.

Yeah. Jomey looks so disappointed. What predictions do I have? I think this, I think the next episode is going to give a fitting into the character run of Jeremy Renner's Hawkeye. Does that mean retirement?

And he's retired before and then come back in. Formal retirement or like, are we talking? Ooh. Yeah. Because runners are out here saying, I would love for Clint to run West Coast Avengers. He wants to be the head of West Coast Avengers. I'm not going to lie.

And I'm like, I'm not going to lie. That would be so dope. See, here's the thing. Here's a thing. Just fucking, you guys, it's just, but it's a cash machine anyway. Just give us the West Coast Avengers. Just do it.

Like, who cares? West Coast Avengers, Young Avengers, Pet Avengers. Let's do it all. Wait, I got a Galaxy Brain take. What if my man Clint atones for a sin as Ronan like he is in, like in the comics, he's like, got to do Thunderbolts.

U.S. agent, Yelana, kill people. It's a dark road we've had. I'm going to train you guys to be heroes. It's not going to happen, but I think it might. Yeah, it could. I wouldn't like to see. I'm interested in this Thunderbolt situation.

I'm interested in what happens with this Thunderbolt situation. Because they're definitely leading us down to Primrose Path of Thunderbolt. Like, they've, like, I'm interested in that. I mean, you were one of the first people that we talked to the Thunderbolts. Now, it seems to me that that's something that they almost have to do. The West Coast Avengers, though, that would be like a treat. You know, that would be like a treat. But I don't think we're going to see much, Hawkeye.

I wonder, and it's a question we talked about when we first started talking about this phase in the MCU. which OG Avengers go and which ones stay. You know, it seems as if they're definitely trying to make us, I wouldn't say, they're definitely, they're not force-feeding us, but they're encouraging us to eat new meals. Like they're saying, hey, they're not force-feeding us, but they're saying, hey, this is to let you know. There's some new stuff to eat now.

I mean, Yelena, come on. You don't have to. Oh, she's the one. She's the best. She's amazing. He's the best. I'm being honest with you. Could be an upgrade.

Oh, she's better than Scarlett. Nope, no, no. You're putting women against each other. That's it. You'll do that. Oh, they call us incels. Sorry, guys. They call us in cells.

Sorry, guys. I've never been called an in-cell in my life. But for debating the quarter trick, they called me an in-cell. I was like, yo, I look at Kalika. Maybe, am I an insale? and then she was like, huh. Michelle?

You know I'm not an in-cell. Should we reopen the door on the court debate really quickly and say, does it make you feel any better that Kate missed the trick this week? I won. No, I think it just means she's learning.

Which was the point? Which was the point? Which was the point? I clearly won. The talk was that she was so special that she could easily learning to do it in one night. And I'm like, no, she missed it. She didn't learn. I win. It's okay.

There's more things to talk about. Spider-Man No Way Home is coming out. Okay. It's coming out pretty soon. That's a wrap for us today. The Midnight Boys are back this Friday with our instant reactions to Spider-Man No Way Home. We've all seen the movie. How excited is everybody here to talk about Spider-Man No Way Home? So excited. So excited. Can't wait to listen to you guys talk about it. Can't wait to record with you, Joe. This is going to be a treat. Yeah.

The House of R will be back with a deep dive on Spider-Man No Way Home. Six-hour podcast. Seven and a half-hour podcast. We're going to try to not let that happen. Somewhere in the multiverse, we're going to hit our time. Will this be longer than the actual movie, do you think? We've done it before. It could be.

They have so much to do. They might have to. bring in Mal and Joe's from other universes to help them. No comment. Who knows if that's actually a thing? No comment. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows?

But that's going to be on Monday. We have, make sure you go watch the movie this weekend, if you can't. If you can actually get a ticket, if you haven't bought your ticket yet to go watch the movie. Van will buy you a ticket. He's being generous. I do my thing. Here's the thing. I want, before we get off this,

This is the, we won't be, I want one prediction for the weekend box office for everyone. Domestic, domestic, domestic and our international. Domestic? Domestic. Domestic. I'm going to go, I'm going to say 165. 165 domestic is what you're saying. Joe?

125. 125. Mal? I have absolutely no idea. None. Here's a headline today. Deadline. Actually, this is yesterday.

Spider-Man No Way Home. box office to sling minimum $290 million in opening weekend. Jeez. I think it's going to be, I'll say this. I think it's going to be one bill, one, one B, when all is said and done. One B without China yet? Really? No, when all, when all is said and done?

Oh, it's definitely going to hit a billion, yeah. Yeah. It's definitely going to hit a billion. Yeah, so I'm going to go, I'm going to say it's going to be $150,000, $150 million. Okay, so $125, $1.25, $165. Okay. Make sure you catch a movie this weekend, guys. At Ringaverse is on Facebook, IG, Twitter, join, and send us questions, ideas, and thoughts, producer credits.

Our producer is Steve Almond Joy. We have Jomi, the Explanator at dinner on Free Jomi, hashtag Free Jomey. Hashtag free Jokane on social media as well, man. Let our guys out of jail, political prisoners. An additional production from Arjunoram Kapal, and of course, TD. Charles takes out. House of Midnight is done. Reindeer meat is tough.

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