The Ringer-Verse - 'Hawkeye' Season Finale Instant Reactions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: December 23, 2021

The Midnight Boys load up the trick arrows one last time to talk about the season finale of 'Hawkeye' (04:28). They dive into the reveal of a major MCU villain and talk about how well they were used in the finale (23:18). They also discuss the immaculate chemistry between Yelena and Kate (41:25). Later they rank all of the MCU TV shows and finales to date (73:10). Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Chang is an avid student and fan of sports, music, art, film, and of course, food. With a rotating cast of guests, they have conversations that cover everything from the creative process to his guest's guiltiest pleasures. Follow the Dave Chang Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiara Radio.com. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty, limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods market. And to the ringerverse,

this is, of course, the ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. And if you're listening to my voice, that means you are tapped in to the musings of Coke, baby Chuck, 24-carat closer. Jomi, the explainer,

a dinner on. Steve Alman Joy, the cuddly white Christmas bear and he of the receding hairline, old man van. Together we are known as of the Midnight Boys.

Program reminders. We're in deep in the holiday coverage for the Ring of Verse, guys. We are like, Charles, are you feeling it? Are you feeling the avalanche of fandom? Are you feeling it?

It's the next day. It's the next day after Christmas. I'm stuffed. I'm just stuffed with content to talk about, you know? Stuffed with, food, stuffed with memories, stuffed with presents, all of those things we're doing right now. It's a lot of stuff going on. Friday, you have to check in with us, check in with us over on

the House of R as they deep dive the Hawkeye finale. You're not going to want to miss that. Okay. Monday, come back to the Midnight Boys. It's us and Joanna Robinson. We got a mini house of midnight for the Matrix resurrection. Oh, I'm letting that chopper fly. I can't wait. I can't wait. I'm sorry. The Matrix Resurrections.

Okay. I'm going to tell a small story. I'm not going to give me anything away. You know what? I'm not even going to tell a story. I'm going to save it for the podcast. I've seen the Matrix, and I can't wait to you guys.

I've seen it too. That's all I'm going to say. Wait, wait, whoa, wait, wait. Can you give me what? You've seen it twice now, right? Mm-hmm. Has your great. grade increased that off.

Fuck no. Yes. I can't wait for this, but. No. The hell no. Okay. No spoilers. That's not how we do it.

Guys, go to the theaters, check out the Matrix's Resurrections, or stream it on on HBO Max. Next Wednesday, we're going to be back again. We're coming back again. give our reactions on the premiere of the book of Boba Fett. Boba Fett is coming.

He is coming. Are you excited about the Boba Fett show, Charles? Finally, we give the people what they want. They've been at us. They'd be like, y'all only do MCU stuff. Nope, we're doing Star Wars. We're riding for Boba Fett. So, yeah, I'm excited. What about you?

We do. We did Star Wars visions. We've done other stuff. But, you know, the MCU is it dominates sort of the fandom Zykegeist conversation. There are some things that we have to hit in the new year. They've been getting on Jomey about us doing Arcane.

I'm loving Arcane. We might have to do Arcane. I know the Evincible's going to be back next year. There's going to be a lot of stuff because this is going to be a little Marvel law. The boy? There's going to be the boys. I love the boys. I love the boys. I love the boys. You know what I mean? I love that show.

I've hosted some stuff over at the Paley Center Ford. I know the cast. I love the boys. I think I would I would love to tackle that because it's a different view of superheroes. It would be a great show. But throw us, give us other ideas of stuff you want us to tackle. Don't get too, look, don't get too obscure, okay? It's like, you know, like, just know that this has to be stuff that is accessible to a lot of people.

Don't get too obscure, but we want to tackle a lot more stuff next year. All right. Another huge episode today, though, we're about to let you know about our reactions to the season finale of Hawkeye. Without further ado, let's get into it. Give me my spoiler warning. We're getting ready to talk about you're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. All right, as we begin our shows these days, we must

get up to date on what's going on in the Hawkeye season finale. What's happened in it? as Charles Holmes, co-baby Chuck gives us the midnight manifest. That's trademarked. All right, let's go. Hawkeye season finale directed by Reese Thomas,

written by Jonathan Igla and Elise Clement. We flash back to a conversation between Eleanor and Kingpin. Kate's mom reveals she began working with Kingpin to pay off her late husband's death. And it's also responsible for the death of Armand. But now that Kate knows about her criminal life, wants out, which angers Kingpin. Then Maya arrives to ask for some time off from Kingpin,

but when she leaves the suspicious and angry crime boss informs Kazi that he needs to take out all their enemies, that means Hawkeye. Eleanor, and now Maya, Clint, finally calls Kate's partner, and we get a nice trick arrow-making montage. Everyone arrives at the Bishop holiday party, including Clint, Kate, Eleanor, Jack Yelena, and the Larpers. Really quick, Vend. is it a little weird that they put all of these civilians in in harm's way? No. The LARP is helping out. I mean, it's not, look, it's what happens, man.

Charles, stop nitpicking every small little thing that goes on in the show, okay? I was just wondering. I was worried. I thought what a woman was going to die. Now, I would be concerned about putting people that LARP, that one of them, I will say this about the LARPers real quick. we do have people who are, you know, there's a fireman. Police officer.

And there's police officers. So I think there's something to be said about the LARPERS in terms of everyday heroes stepping up to the next level. I think that's a good message. You know, you have everyday heroes, firemen and heroes. Police officers are, you know, they do heroes. Back to the manifest. Okay.

Gates confronts her mom about working with the kingpin, but when cops, Cossi uses a sniper rifle to try and kill Clint. Chaos ensues at the holiday party. Kate tries to stop Yelena from killing Clint. Clint battles Cazi and everything comes to a head at the 30 rock ice skating rink. Clint, Kate, the Larpers, and Jack work together to dispatch the track suit mafia, and then the final showdowns commence. We have Kate versus the kingpin, Clint versus Yelena, and Maya versus Cazi.

So, Kate saves her mom from the kingpin and beats the villain by flicking one of his stolen cufflinks. Similar to the quarter trick at an explosive arrow, and then Eleanor is arrested by the cops who were tipped off by her daughter. Clint and Yelena have a heart to heart where they realize that neither would have been able to stop Natasha from sacrificing herself to save the universe. Kazi dies during the fight with Maya, after which Maya finds Kingpin and shoots him in the street. Finally, Clint with Kate and Lucky in Toe arrive at the Barton Farm in time for Christmas. Clint gives Laura back her watch, which is revealed to be from Shield. Then Clint and Kate burn his Roaning costume. And in Comic Book Corner, we're keeping it short. Kingpin's Hawaiian

shirt outfit is pulled directly from the 2014 comic book Amazing Spider-Man Family Business. So if you're wondering why he's wearing a Hawaiian shirt in winter, that's why. And then lastly, a lot of people got mad. A lot of people got mad at Kingpin getting shot by Maya at the end. But this is very similar to a scene in the comic books where Maya shoots Kingpin straight. in the face, but he's not dead in that. He's blind. So I don't think this is the last we'll see of Kingpin. And that is our last midnight manifest

for Hawkeye this season. What's going on, Van? Fantasticly done. I'd say the best midnight manifest of them all. And they've all been great. All right, let's get into our thoughts on the finale. Charles, I'll start with you right now.

Not bad. Not bad. Overall is the series I've really, really been enjoying Hawkeye, but I think we talked about it last episode. We were both worried. We were both worried about them sticking the landing because there were so much for them to pack in into the final episode. And I left the finale wanting a little bit. That feeling that you've been talking about, Dan, of like at the end of the episode, you're kind of like, uh, is that it? Is there anything else? Is this over? I left this finale being like, hmm, is there anything left? Is this all we're getting? So I think,

think Hawkeye is a series. I enjoyed a lot, but man, did they kind of rush the ending? They just had so much to pull off. And I don't know if they pulled it off that well. What about you, Van? How are you feeling about the finale? I was entertained.

It worked. It was a good finale. I think the finale suffers for a lot of the same problems that Marvel finale suffer from. I'm not sure why sometimes because I enjoyed the finale of Hawkeye. I thought it was great. I thought I had some really great moments. Something seemed to kind of anti-climatic.

But I don't understand why Marvel won't just either give us less story, which we could definitely do, less story, maybe a little bit more action than some of these, or just give us eight or ten episodes. I'm trying to understand what the, like, I'm trying to understand what that is about. Because if this show would have had maybe a little less going on, or a little bit more time to get through what was going on,

it would have been virtually perfect. And it was still incredibly damn good. But yeah, it seemed like they had a lot of threads to pull on. And I don't know if they landed them all, but it's still a good finale, a great finale. I still liked it a lot. What has been, I haven't checked the reaction on the Marvel fans. I haven't checked it with the riders and the mob yet.

over on the old Facebook. What has been people's reaction to it? When I was scrolling through Twitter, the reaction seemed lukewarm. Like, people didn't hate it, but a lot of people are getting at them about their use of Kingpin. Like, people are pissed.

Like, Kingpin was trending. Like, Jomey, what have you been seeing? It seems like people are not negative, but it's not a runaway success like Loki was. You know, it's interesting. When I check my timeline, people are, you know, lukewarm, especially about the kingpin stuff and, you know, just how rust the ending felt

like. But just like going through like the hashtags and going through just the trending topics, people are really enjoying the last episode of Hot Guy. So it's interesting. You know, people are having fun with it. So I'm, I'm happy for them. I'm glad. I don't really see it. But I'm, hey, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to yuck anybody's yum. And it, when it comes to this. I just think, like, to your point, it just felt kind of weird how everything just kind of ended how it did.

Well, so this is, so I thought the finale was good. I'll talk about some things that I really enjoyed about it. Number one, I thought Clinton Kate, the one thing that they really did now was they came full circle with Clinton Kate. Yeah. I thought that the one thing

that the show had to do more than any other thing is make Kate Bishop Hawkeye, and the show did that. I really do believe that the show did that. The show, she's a young Hawkeye and an experienced Hawkeye, but there was a way that they almost crafted a slightly pocket universe for Hawkeye. Hawkeye has never had his own little universe. But now Hawkeye has his own little universe.

And what I mean by that is that, like, there were never any characters that just existed for Hawkeye. Hawkeye was always the guy that would come in and be like an ancillary part of a bigger story. But now there are villains that are basically Hawkeye villains. You got the tracksuits. Actually, it's interesting. At this point right now in Marvel,

Kingpin is a Hawkeye villain because we haven't seen Daredevil in the MCU yet. You know what I mean? We don't know whether or not that stuff is MCU canon. We're not sure it was when it came out, but we're not sure how it is now. Like, we could discomposed to be a Kingpin variant. Just as Black Widow got her own little Black Widow verse by bringing in everyone that was in her life in that movie, which Yelaina is now basically a part of, Hawkeye got his own little deal here too.

And the rules or the feeling, the flow of Hawkeyes, is a little bit different. Everybody's little story deal is always a little bit different. Captain America's little cap verse is different than Thor's Thor verse is different than Dr. Strang's. They all exist in different planes in Marvel, and that's why the teamups are so great. And in this one, they established the Kate's and Clint's little Hawkeye verse, and it works.

You know, it works street-level Marvel shenanigans. This is some of the best street-level stuff that we've seen in Marvel, if you ask me. Oh, no, I totally agree on the street. street level point of just, we're about to get Moon Night. We got Black Widow. And Hawkeye seemed like a culmination of bringing in a little bit from Black Widow, bringing in a little bit of the Daredevil Netflix stuff. And maybe with Moon Night, they keep this going strong. But we never really got a street level story in the MCU proper. Like, we still don't know if like the Netflix Daredevil stuff

or the Luke Cage or Iron Fist stuff is canon. And I like the street level stuff for TV shows, I think a little bit more than I like the out there stuff just in terms of like you could do a little bit more character building like you don't have to worry about like the cg i not looking all that great that's what i enjoyed and i think behind elena i think haley is probably the most successful new character they've introduced in phase four can you think of any other characters that have been better than elena and haley in this or who's your top three who's your who's your top three If you had to go off the goal. Of new characters that I've been introducing in phase four.

Yelaina's number one for me. Yeah, Yelena number one, easy. Yelana's number one for me. Sylvie's number two for me. Okay. And I will put Shankshi number three for me. Oh, no, he remains. He who remains is like in one scene.

But it's an amazing scene. Nails the scene. But like, nails the scene. But he who remains is in one scene. So, yeah. To my original point, I think what they had to do was make a new Hawkeye and to be honest with you. By the end of it, they made a new hawk eye,

especially it felt very Hawkeyes-in-S when they're making the trick arrows and they're using the trick arrows. She's learning how to fight with the trick arrows. She's right there next to Clint. They are fighting, you know, doing their thing and all of that stuff. Her skills come full circle. It's amazing. Now, we're talking about MTV Finaleys.

Going forward to you, Charles, to any of the Midnight Boys. Is the MCU lukewarm finale problem something that's fixable? Or are the Disney Plus shows inherently hampered by a storytelling glitch that's going to always leave us feeling somewhat deflated after a finale? Tell you why. If I'm going to be honest with this finale, there were absolutely zero surprises. like zero surprises.

The reason why I think Loki is the best of these shows is because Loki was able to push its wonderment all the way to the end and didn't actually give you something that you didn't know whether that you were going to get. In this one, the Eleanor thing, completely anticlimatic. Totally anticlimatic.

Almost, I feel like the Eleanor K thing was bad. Oh, we're going to talk about it. Are we picking Nick Slater? Yeah, I feel like the Eleanor K thing was bad. I really enjoyed seeing Kingpin. A lot of people have Kingpin problems. I really enjoy seeing Kingpin. But a lot of this stuff are things we could see coming from a mile away,

even with the watch. That didn't end up. I almost put it to you like this. This was a good finale. But it was almost like tagging the finale with the Rogers, the musical, I could do this all day thing. When I saw that, I was interested. attained by it, but then I was like, that's it.

Oh, yeah. It was fun. It was fun to watch. It was a lot of fun to watch. I love that song, by the way. But I was like, oh, okay. Well, that's it. It's going off.

And I think I wasn't disappointed. I was like, oh, all right, cool. Well, that's cool. They're not going to do anything else. So I think that was my big deal. So do you feel like this is something that's going to last throughout the MCU? Or is this something that's fixable? that they're going to see the reaction from the fan base

and then like try to address. The third act Disney Plus problem, Marvel show is not a Disney Plus problem. It's an MCU problem. People since the MCU has launched have always complained that the MCU has a third act problem. That when you get to the end of most of these movies and now TV shows,

you end up getting like CGI mess, them trying to throw a bunch of stuff at the screen, and then not, generally having a resolution because there's going to be another story. There's going to be another movie and now there's going to be another TV show.

And I think it's a little bit different when we're watching TV. Like when we're watching a movie, it's like, all right, it had a third act problem, but I liked 80% of the movie, so I really don't care.

I think for the TV shows, we're investing week after week after week. So if a season finale does not stick the landing, we're a little bit more jarred. We're literally like, oh, like, I just devoted six, seven hours of my life to this, five weeks to this, what's going on. And I think the issue that we're finding is that TV's different than movies, in the sense that the third act problem starts making you doubt whether you want to jump into another MCU TV show. Because there are going to be the big ones.

There's going to be Moon Night and there's going to be She Hulk. But after this, I was just like, damn, I was really excited for Echo, but now I'm a little bit like, I would have rather you guys just saved a bunch of this stuff for the Echo series because her story in this season finale felt super rushed. In a way, I was just like did not serve the character. Like her shooting like Kingpin at the end, I'm like, that should be like an emotionally dramatic scene. I should be feeling the weight of her finally figuring out that this man that raised her, betrayed her in the ultimate way. And we get one scene of her shooting and maybe dying, maybe not.

And I walked away from it being like, that's it? Did you feel similar in terms of just like a lot of emotional moments? Like even like Kate getting her mom arrested, I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Throwing your mom to the police is a wild emotional journey to go through as a young person. And it's just kind of played as like, yep, I called the police on my mom. and we just don't hear about it again. That's weird to me. I mean, the first thing when I see this,

I'm not like sending my mom to jail. Exactly. Like, the first thing I saw when I said, I'm not sending my mom to jail. I'll send one of y'all mamas to jail before I sent my mom to jail. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not sending my mom to jail.

My mom did some bad stuff. She did some, guess what? I'm not that good. I'm going to take her to the side. I'm like, come on, listen. I'm about to give you a story. stern talking to. This is wrong. Okay, you can't do this anymore.

But you're cooking the night. All right, let's be clear. Let's be clear. Because you're not going, you're not going to jail. I'm not putting you in the slammer, mother. Can I ask a quick question? Made me fucking hot toddies when I was sick and made me chicken soup from the soul,

rub my back, mom who, like, I'm not, I'm not putting you in jail. I didn't say I love you. Kate Savage, man. Kate Savage. I have to ask Steve a quick question. Is this like a white family thing? Is this like a mom spaghetti M&M type thing? Like I hate my mom.

Steve, I would not be sending me mom to jail. I would never put my mom in jail. No, I think it's a rich person thing. So rich people in that situation then, it's like a succession type thing. You think Kate wants Kate wants Bishop security? No, no, it's not like that.

For the company. Kate Shiv Bishop. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Put respect on Kate's name. Kate is not Shiv, though. Come on. Respect Kate. That's not she's Shiv-esque.

No. No, she's not. That's a Kendall move. That's a Kendall move. Yeah, that's a, I want to say she's more of a Kendall. She can't be a Kindle, man. Kendall, Kendall, Kendall got too many problems. Like, it's got a lot of problems.

The Kate's way more well-adjusted the Kendall is. But yeah, I thought, like, you know, that part of it was, it was like whatever. Before we get into that, we're going to get into that in a second. Let's start with Kingpin, though, because Kingpin, to me is going to be, we're going to dive a little bit deeper into Clinton, Kate, and their dynamic and how we felt that ended up. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurt today for two weeks

and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific. expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. Key PIN seems to be the most divisive thing on the internet right now with the fans.

So you guys already know, I'm a huge fan of Vincent D'onofrio's Key PIN from the Marvel MCU Netflix fucking universe or whatever you want to call it love it

thought it was amazing, thought it was great, thought it was fantastic actor, fantastic writing one of the best villains in the MCU

if you asked me it did feel like he just appeared. Now, I have questions and the questions are if in fact,

well, not a question, I have a statement. If this Kingpin exists by himself, it's a kingpin variance,

it's a different situation, that stuff, doesn't matter, it's not in there, then what I would say is they did a poor job with the kingpin then. However, if they are expecting us to know the kingpin from those shows, I think it's totally fine because we already have a sense of how dangerous he is. We already have a sense of how, like even when she shoots the arrow at him and it doesn't

go through his, you know, it doesn't stab him or whatever. It doesn't, it bounces off of his, we know what's under there. Now, if you did not know the Kingpin from the Netflix universe, then you'd say, why didn't the arrow work against Kingpin? But now, you know, which leads me to believe that it is a continuation. But if it's not, and they're just introducing this character, it would have been a poor way to do it. Do you think I have a point with that, Charles? You have a massive point. The whole Kingpin of it all, I get why they waited so long to interest.

him. I won't say why, you know. But I felt like they wanted me to care about the Kingpin, but they didn't tell me what his motivations were. We were teased for weeks like, oh, he's coming, he's coming, and then he's there. And the big, the big spotlight of this episode is Kate fighting Kingpin. And I'm like, why does Kate hate Kingpin? She does not know this man personally. She learned about this man a couple hours ago. I truly don't know why, what Kingpin's big plan lands are, what his motives are, what he is in this world. So all of those scenes with him, to me, rang a little bit hollow because I'm like, you need an episode to set up what he's been doing. What is he, like, did he get snapped away? Did he not? Is he out of jail? What is his

relationship to the Trachshu Mafia? How far does this go? Because we're supposed to believe in the emotional heft of Kate finally going up against this big villain. And I'm just like, I don't buy this. You know what I mean? The only reason Kate knows about Kingpin is from Clint. Well, I think you're right in the sense that like Kingpin needed more connective tissue within the show for us to like really understand like to really like understand what he's doing there. But he talks to Kazi and he mentions like this is my city. I want everybody under my control.

Something to that effect. And if you know Kingpin from the pre-Pin from the pre-19. previous Netflix shows are just, you know, Marvel canon. Like that's this whole thing is I want, you know, this city under my thumb. And so when Eleanor gets out of line, that, you know, is a threat to his dominance. And he has to then step in to fix that, right? I'm not, I'm not disagree with you and saying, you know, we don't, we, we don't need more, right? But I think that's what the people upstairs are thinking.

We know Kingpin to a level of this is what he wants. his base level. They have a little conversation with Kazi and Eleanor getting out of line is a problem. Oh, no, I agree with that. But to Van's point, this is coming after Loki. We know about variants. They have been very coy with whether this is the same kingpin. It's a variant or whatever.

If you're going to be coy in that way, then story-wise, you have to like set the rules because I just left being like a little underwhelmed after being so excited. like, oh, Kingpin is Daredevil villain is coming into the MCU. Like, what's going to happen? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just felt it that didn't stick the landing for me as much. And if we're going to be real, Kingpin went how many rounds with Matt Burdock? The fight with Kate, I was a little bit like, like, I saw the season one fight between those two.

Like, really? What, you felt like Kate was too formidable in the fight? No, I felt like Kingpin wasn't as scary as he wasn't Daredevil. Like, he ripped the door off of. Vakar in this episode. He literally ripped the door. I'm talking about like brutality. Like, they can't.

They can't. It's a different type of show. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. You like, you know what the kingpin was. Like my man, it took Matt Murdoch everything in his power, like everything. Matt Murdoch, one of the best martial artists in, like in comic books to take this man down. It's just like, I was like, is this the same character?

It's a different character. I always hate on Kingpin's hand-to-hand. inability. In the comics, they always tell you what a bad motherfucker Kingpin is. He's big. That's a lot of muscle he got under there. You know what I mean? Wait, wait. So you, but be clear. You don't think there was any jump. You don't think there was any jump between how brutal Kingpin was as a fighter in the Netflix series versus how brutal he was. Of course, because I think there's a difference in tone, right? So they can't bring the same

tone. The Netflix series, do you remember that one episode where, uh, where Daredevil was fighting the hand and he was getting ripped to shreds by a blade. He was getting destroyed. Like, it was very difficult to watch.

Do you remember the hallway fight scene? Yes. In Daredevil, one of the best fight ever. I remember the last fight from the last season with Daredevil and Kingpin

in the old cell. Those were hard, all-rated type TVMA right. It's not the same type of fight. I get it, but you get why I would nip pick a little bit, but like, I'm like, is this the same guy or is this a variant? Let's be

real. Yeah. Yeah. Um, not sure. Not sure. Not even sure. Do you think this kingpin even fits in this world? Does it even work? I think it works. Like, I think, I think that this kingpin works. I think it can work better if, to your point, I agree, like Hawkeye, it just needed like one or two more episodes to really like fill out the world and not feel so rush. And if they weren't trying to make the big surprise, big surprise of the whole kingpin of it all, we should have just gotten a kingpin episode just to see how he fits in the world. Because I might have missed it in the episode. Y'all will tell me if I didn't.

But I'm still a little unclear about the beef between Kingpin and Maya's father. Do you want me to explain it? I know he owed him a lot of money. Yeah, I think, I think part of it is. Maya Maya's dad needed to go for whatever reason. They don't explain that.

Yeah, but that's a story flaw. Exactly. Of like you needed one, it could have been a scene, it could have been an episode of being like, here's the relationship between William and Wilson Fisk and Maya and Wilson Fisk. Because when she ends up like shooting him in the street,

I'm like, all right, we're still missing a couple beats. Like we know that this man is her uncle. Once again, if we're going to get on Kate for throwing her mom in jail, we need to get on like, Maya for being like, yo, it takes a lot for you to kill your uncle. Like, we need to know, like, was he loving? Was like, he says, I love you. And I'm just like, all right, you can say I love you. We have no scenes of connective tissue being like, this is why he loves this daughter that he's raised. The hypothesis I think we can run with and correct me if I'm if I'm miss or something is Kingpin.

tells Kazi to tip off Ronan to kill Maya's dad. Yes. Like that's what we should infer. They don't tell us that we have to do the math in our heads, but that's probably how that went down. So Kingpin fights Kate at the end. She beats him with the quarterflip. I was so pleased.

I'm so happy. I understand that Kate Bishop is one of the most special, inherently talented characters in all of my, Marvel history. The minute that she saw Clint do the quarter flip, she just knew how to do it because, remember, she's the next Hawkeye. And these people are born this way. Some people in this, some people are born with magic.

Some people are born with the ability to flip quarters. Some people are born with the ability to shoot dragons in the neck from hundreds of yards and feet away. It's something that happens in comic books. And we're telling the story of inherently special people. And so when she did that, I thought, there it is. There's my girl. There's Kate Bishop.

She got the kingpin. And it was amazing. And I thought even, I thought that it really even solidified the relationship. Whoa. If you don't stop the guy. Come on, man. I know they didn't get to you, bro. Do they got your mom?

Like, did they send you a ransom letter? Like, come on, bro. Who got you? You got to you, bro. Charles, Charles, blink twice. Blink twice if I got to save you, bro. I got to you.

Charles, we're telling the story of special characters. They can do whatever. Listen, in the next, bro, in the next hawk eye show. Man, don't leave me on this island alone, bro. In the next hawk eye show or movie, K. Bishop might fly. She's like, bro, she might fly. And if she flies, Kay Bishop, she might fly, man. She might fly.

she might, you know what might happen in the next one? She might will me in there. You never know. So I'll be honest with you. So I thought, I thought that was great. Van sarcastic comments aside, it's glad that Steve and I were vindicated. All right, you guys were vindicated.

We knew what was going to happen. We knew what was coming back. You are not vindicated. Because that's how stories work, right? But you tease something. Let me ask you. And then you have it pay off. Let me ask you a question.

How were you vindicated? I don't know if Steve can go back get this audio. But we said that Kate is a talented individual, right? And that her loading the coin flip is just a progression in her journey to become Hawkeye, right? That's a Hawkeye move. Taking the cuff link, boom, flicking it, hitting the arrows, the arrows connect,

and blowing up Kingpin. That's next level. That's Hawkeye stuff. right y'all didn't y'all was like nah she can't do it last week even last week when she did the quarter trip on the on the phone you were like I'm vindicated I was right did van or I say that the coin flip would never come back like it was obviously she couldn't do it no I'm saying that it makes no sense that she can do it I'm not saying that they weren't going to bring it back it just makes no sense that she can do it this is this is the thing with the coin flip and I seriously never want to talk about the coin flip or anything like this I never want to talk about it again I never want to talk about it or anything like this ever again. This is what I said about the coin flip. I'm going to make the coin flip.

I'm going to tell you specifically what I said about the coin flip. Why I feel like I was vindicated when she missed it and why this wasn't very surprising that she did. This is why I said about the coin flip. Let me ask you a question. Jomey, why is Hawkeye so good at shooting arrows? Because he is naturally adept with the skill of shooting arrows. Okay, so that's part of it, right?

That's part of it. That's part of it. Paul, obviously, Hawkeye has a talent, but are you aware of how Hawkeye grew up? What did Hawkeye grew up doing? Hawkeye grew up in a circus, shooting arrows with his brother. Right, okay.

So it's something he's been doing his entire life, right? So obviously there's a talent that separates Hawkeye, and this goes for any character, right? Let's take Dick Grayson. Why was Dick Grayson, like, specifically qualified to be Robin when it was time to be Robbins because the Grayson probably learned

all of the stuff that he learned as far as the martial arts, the acrobatics, all of that stuff became easier to him because he was a part of the flying Grayson's. You know what I mean? So Hawkeye spent his entire childhood shooting the bow and arrow

for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. Not just the bow and arrow. let's be clear, training with every weapon under the sun, not just bow and arrows. Like aiming shit, knives, whatever, like on top of his shield training. Like, training with everything. For me, and it's just for me.

I'll put this to bed for care. So to me, that diligence is part of the hero's journey, right? Like, that diligence to me, that training over and over and over again, like even when you watch a Western and you see somebody, like, when I saw Kay Bishop nailed a coin flip after being taught by Hawkeye like for the third time, I was like, that's to me not putting enough into that skill. To me, it's a deficit in the character

if you don't show them going through what it takes to like nail something like that, especially when you know it's coming back. The reason why I felt vindicated when she missed it was because that was the writer saying that even though Kate is as special as she is, she didn't learn the coin flip that night. She didn't. She got lucky. She hit it once. She didn't learn it that night because she was still trying to do it and she was still missing it. Towards the end, whatever amount of time that it would take you to learn how to do something, I guess she learned it because she kept doing it over and over and over again and she learned it.

To me, especially with a character that's not like a god or not human, I think it's part of it, especially with the MCU to take a while for some of these people to figure out how to get these things right. I think it adds to the characterization. that's just my personal belief. I promise on this podcast right now, I will never, ever, ever delve into something like that again because the reality is that it really did distract away

from talking about the show itself. It really did. And if, to be honest with you, this is, I listen to everybody that I heard talk about this, right? And a lot of people were saying, listen, man, Marvel is simply too big now to do things the same way that they did, right? Tony Star did not develop a perfect arc reactor

in Iron Man One. Like even with whatever, when people talk about the time travel stuff in endgame, the only reason why that stuff worked is because, like, Ant Man had been to the quantum realm and he gave Tony an idea that he had never thought about before. So all of those things to me, they used to matter. If the MCU is too big, you know,

and there's some other things that we can talk about, you know, one of, you know, in other movies that are out now, if those things are too big now for the MCU to really deal with them all, I'm with it.

I'm not going to, I'm an old man van, but I'm not going to be here with a cane and stomp on everybody's head with all of this stuff. But I will say that what, what no one, what no one can really argue with

is there is a trend. And you can point to three complete different things that you're like, uh, and by the way, how you and Steve and Jomey, I was in Shankshi with y'all.

I saw how y'all, like y'all can say whatever you want to say now. I saw how y'all reacted when the, when the bow and arrow shot happened. I was there. I was in Shongshi. Speak on it.

Well, no, no, here's what I'll say, fan. I appreciate your apology. I think the fans will also appreciate your apology. Why are you being a dick about it? I didn't know. I like, I didn't apologize. I was not about, you know what I'm going to do?

What are you talking about? Steve, can you give me some music in post? I am invoking something new. We are calling it the midnight band list. Okay? We are invoking the midnight band list. What's the midnight band list? On top of it is mutants, okay?

Moutifistos, too. Two is Mephisto. We are banning Mephisto. And now that Vann has had his piece, number three on this list, quarter flip trick. We are banning that is our third. Quarter gate is done.

Quarter gate is done. It's big. And like anything in that realm, I swear to God. The quarter gate debate, anything in that realm. The Sean Chi Arrow. The Sean Chi Arrow.

Is it done? The band list for this episode is open. Is there anything else we want to add to the band list? Oh, like, we have mutants. We have Mephisto. We have anything regarding. We can't ban mutants totally. All right.

Until we get confirmation. Until we get confirmation. We can't, we, like, we can't ban mutants totally. All right. We can't. We can't ban mutants. So we got to talk about meetings, right? We're like, and by the way, as soon as we, as soon as we ban Mephisto, that's what

he's really going to show up, by the way. Just let you know, because that's how he does. That's how he does. As soon as you, what did they say about Kaiser-Sose? What was the biggest thing that causes themselves they did the same thing that the devil did? Was convinced everybody didn't exist. This is all part of Mephisto's plan. All right.

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Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colhouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. Yelena. Yelena Belova. She's the best character. I love her. She's the best.

She's got a dragon braid. She's ready to kill Clint. She's ready to kill Clint. She's desperate to kill Clint. Clint, they fight. Amazing chemistry with her and Kate in the elevator. Does the elevator scene, anybody can answer? Does the elevator scene top the kitchen table scene?

It's up there. It's funny. This shit was funny. I was laughing. Is it better? I don't know if it's better. I think they serve two different purposes. Yeah, I think they serve two different purposes.

But I will say, I will say, in terms of like hilarity, when Kate slaps Yelena, and she's like, why did you do that? She's like, I don't know. She was so scared after she did it. I was just like, oh my gosh, Elena's going to kill this woman. Their chemistry is so good. I have to ask you this, man. Yelana Kate's chemistry is so good.

Would you rather a Hawkeye and Black Widow Disney Plus show with the two of them or a Hawkeye and Black Widow movie with them in Facebook? So I think before you get to a movie, there's a lot that has to happen. I couldn't see a Hawkeye Black Widow movie right now being terribly interesting. because they don't have enough under their belts right now. Like, what's going to be the thing, you know? But one day it will be. One day the Hawkeye Black Widow movie with Kate and Yelena Belova

is going to be one of the best MCU movies we've ever gotten. One day that movie is going to be amazing. The chemistry is out of this world. Yeah, it's one day that movie is going to be. But right now, so much more needs to happen. It's almost as if you need an MCU show to set up the stakes for a movie. And they're fitting into like Avengers roles as being Black Widow and Hawkeye, obviously. We don't know where the Avengers are.

We don't know what the status of the Avengers are. We don't know what a team looks like. We know that a Young Avengers situation might come in. Do you need a Kate and Black Widow series to get you to Young Avengers? you know, and so there's a lot to be kind of volleyed around to discuss whether or not like we want to see them or how we want to see them.

But I know definitely we're going to get some great stuff from them because they just work. They just work. It's amazing. What did you think of the fight scene that they had where it was the funniest fight scene because you can tell that Kate is outclassed

but Yelena doesn't want to hurt Kate and Kate doesn't want to hurt Yelena? So they're just like, they're doing all these cool moves. And it's like they want to be best friends. I just thought it fucking, it was amazing. I also for once, I was just like, I don't think that they did it. But I really, really wish that they would have fought through the 30 Rock sitcom office. I was like, y'all could have put in the ask.

Put Childish Gambito in there. He wasn't on that show. He used to write for it. Liz Lemon just on the on the desk somewhere. Tracy Morgan coming back. I will say this, though. I love that because that's how me and my. big brother used to fight. One of my big brothers. Another one of my big brothers used to

savage me. He was a sadist. He just would beat the dog shit out of me. But one of them, it would be like, come on, Van, stop. I'm all mad. I'm all mad. I'm trying to get them. Hey, bro, quit, quit. Pop-pop. Hey, chill. And, but, you know, and that's kind of how they do a fight. Like, they're fighting enough to keep you off them, but they don't really want to hurt you. And even and you land a good shot, they're more proud of you than they are actually trying to, like, destroy you. Wait, man, how many brothers do you have?

My dad, my dad was like, you know. Getting it in, it's fine. Recipes. But how many ways, I want to know. I really want to know. How many brothers do you have? I don't want to talk about it. I had a lot of thoughts about the resolution between Yelena and Clint

regarding that. Now, question for all the Midnight boys. The world knows that Nat is dead, but they don't know exactly how she died. Yeah, I believe so. That seems to be the consensus. I don't think they know that she died off world, if I'm correct. I don't remember them ever getting into it. Wait, how much does Valentina Allegra know?

Yeah, she just knows that, at least in the Black Widow Stinger, she just knows that Hawkeye killed Black Widow. Okay, okay. I didn't know she mentioned the planet or anything like that. assuming they just know that she died saving the universe. I look at that differently. I look at that as Val knows that Clint didn't really kill that, but she had a vested interest in turning Yelena on to Clint for whatever reason. Oh, no, I agree with that.

I agree that she was the one that planted it in Yelena's head, that Hawkeye is responsible, not knowing anything else besides that. Like, I do agree with that. Was it sort of a Martha is my mother's name moment when Clint whistled the song? Yeah, a little bit. Was it? Nah.

I'm asking. I'm asking. All I will say is the scene, I was once again, I was like, you needed one more scene before this, one more episode. Because to be clear,

this is the first time we're seeing Yelena and Clint and Clint really, like, talk throughout this whole series. They fought, but this is the, like, Yelena and Kate have had many conversations. Yelena has never talked to this man. And you're telling me that one whistleblow is all it takes her to stop her, like, vengeful terror across the city. That was a little bit, I was like, they should have had one more scene together because

this is just happening way too fast. Just to say, while I think that that could be shaky, it is not nearly, as bad as Martha is my mother's name too. It's not as bad, but it was a little right. No, no, no, no, it's not as bad. It's not as bad. Nothing is bad as. Nothing is as bad. Your name is Martha, like Martha's mother. But if I want to kill someone and you do the whistle from childhood, does that make you believe that he didn't kill her? I think it's just to make her stop. I know. Just to make her listen. I don't know. They were very close. I know she already knew how close they were. So if he killed her on Vormier, I just looked at it. I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting. It's not a Martha's my mother's name moment. Nothing is, as we said.

But like, it was just, it was an interesting little thing to throw in there to make her stop and listen to him. I think part of it is, like, they were talking as a fight and he was like, hey, I knew your sister. She was like, I don't care. She didn't believe him.

And the last thing was the whistle. That's the thing that could prove that he was connected to her that can link all three of them. Right? Like that was that was that. No, that's all well and good. I just wanted one more scene

with Clinton, Yelena, because obviously Clinton knows a lot about her. Yeah. But we never got a scene being like, really how much did Nat tell him about Yelena? Like, when did she tell him? Like, they could have, this scene almost felt like,

y'all should have had this conversation on the rooftop. and then when we got to the scene, I would have been like, oh, okay, I buy that, like, she's been thinking about this for days, and she kind of knows in her heart

that it's not Hawkeye's fault. Yeah. And she's ready to accept it. But, like, accepting it after the whistle, I'm like, guys, got,

you got, go on. I think that we could see that in the future. You know, we could see whatever, you know, Young Avengers or something, Hawkeye and Yelena just chaned out

about, you know, Natasha. So, it's possible. Yeah. So, uh,

obviously we got the return of the trick arrows everybody's favorite trick arrows the pin particle arrow I will say this poor use of pin particles I love just to shrink two guys or to shrink a truck tough hey have don't we like like first of all

and by the way I have something to say to those guys somewhere because they're dead oh rest of beach like so you know big time so So they did have it coming for trying to run a truck. And they did because a lot of the other guys, because the Kalika's like, why do those guys have to get shrunk and like killed by Al

when everybody else is getting hit by these arrows and it's like not killing them and all that. I was like, well, it's different because they tried to run a truck into the whole situation. They were trying to do a lot of damage. But you get what you pay for, bro. You brought it on yourself, Pimp Particle Arrow guys. And it was the funniest point.

part in the whole episode is like, what happens to them now? And why he goes, I don't know, I have to ask Scott. But then right after that, peace, they're out. Those guys are dead. They were, they got thought it's hilarious. Kate's looking at Clint crazy when she finds out he's rowing. And like, man, he's a serial killer. My hero is a serial killer.

And like, they're doing all this work to like dispatch them, but not kill these people. they killed those two motherfuckers. And like, Kate's like, all right, well. Sure. They tried to run a truck. You were murder him. They tried to run a truck, man. That's too much.

That doesn't, that's still killing someone. Run up and get done up. They tried to run a truck, bro. The ice rink itself, I want a couple of, that was my big deal from the ice rink was the pin particles arrow. That's my favorite arrow. Charles, what was your favorite moment

from the ice rink? From the ice rink? Trick arrows. This wasn't a trick arrow moment, but I did think it was hilarious when Clint gets stuck in a tree. And I'm like, damn, Clint really can't get down from this tree. He can't fly. He can't do shit.

And then we got a flashback from, I feel like it was a flashback from the first episode when Kate got suspended for shooting the bell. She finally used her arrows for some good. You know what I'm saying? She knocked down a Christmas tree instead of the bell. Also, really quick question. With all this damage, do you ever think, like, when this is all going on, like, the people in New York, like, think this is a terrorist attack?

Like, what do people think when, like, 30 Rock is getting fucked up? And it's just a bunch of people running around. Can't really talk about it because it doesn't make any sense where the police was at. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's like, it can't, can't really discuss it. It's just one of those things that we're just going to have to move on with. The police weren't out there. People get.

It's actually funny. First responders were there. They were already larpers. Already lopping up. And, wait, where did, wait, speaking of the police, speaking of the police, how the fuck did the police know exactly where Eleanor would be? It wasn't like, like, when did Kate call the police and be like, hey, my mom is going to be on this side of the street right now.

Come pick her up. Like, when does she do that? Hey, I'll be honest with you. Charles, you're quarter flipping right now. Stop. What? Does that count as a quarterflip? I don't know.

You're a quarter flipping right now. It's a call to the police. It's not a quarterfli. Anytime now when we're doing this. It's going to be called quarter flipping. You're quarter flipping right now. All right. It's how I'm on.

I got caught. I got caught. Yeah. The police showed up. The police showed up. She took her mom away and she didn't even fucking shed a tear. Peace, mom. I love you.

Go to jail. Love it. Love it. Trial. Did you like the Trial? Love him I hate the Trial. Did it really get the Trial? A lot of people are like,

that's an Easter egg for the owl, the villain. And I'm like, I don't know, guys. I just think it was like... Wait, what? They already had the owl in the... I know. The owl is dead. Like, they already had the owl in the Netflix series.

I liked them when they had the owl in there, too. Can I be honest with you guys, just real quick, I love an owl. One time, two times in my life, I connected with an owl. It's playing golf at the Griffith Park Nine. If you're ever in LA and you want to play golf with me, we can go play golf. Griffith Park Nine. Top of the Hill. Beautiful.

Nine. golf course. And on the last hole, the last hole, it was getting like 5.30 or something like that. It was in the wintertime. It was getting to be like dusky. And I hit the ball. The ball goes out there. And all of a sudden as I'm walking up to the ball, a huge owl swoops down. And it's like right on top of the ball. And he looks at me and I look at him and I'm like,

you the illis, bro. That's what I was like, bro. You the endless, you're beautiful. Bro, I'm like, bro, you are. And he just kind of, ooh. And then he was basically telling me, lo, it's night time's coming.

This is my time. So you need to get out. And I was like, you got it, homie. Hit the ball and we left owl. I commune with the owl right there. Owls are terrifying. Like they have great PR like hippos.

You know, we're like, oh, man, they're so cool. But. What's wrong with you? I mean, Nigerians don't like owls? What's wrong with owls? I love an owl. I'm saying they're terrifying. Like, if you had to like get into it with an owl, you're done.

But that's different though because, yeah, that's different though. I'll tell you why because hippos, an owl is threatening. A hippo is lethal. Hippos kills so many people. A hippo is actually lethal. Like people are scared of great shots to be scared of hippos have like a lot of muscle. I was looking at their like one of those pictures of the signs. Yeah, it's just all muscle.

Key pins of the animal. See, Charles? Stop, that's what they are. All right. So, last thing, we just going out crazy and shit. Couple questions about, they come home scene. So there's a resolution here. Clint's Hawkeye has Kate earned her Hawkeye spot.

Clint's Hawkeye has his resolution. They burned the Ronan suit, which if I was quarter flipping, I would say that I think the suit should be fire retardant, but it doesn't make any sense to, like, wear a suit and you could be set on fire, but whatever. They burn the suit. Has Kate already, has she done enough in you guys' eyes, Charles, to become Hawkeye?

Is she now Hawkeye or do we need more adventures for her to really claim that mantle? Hell yeah. She's Hawkeye. She's Hawkeye now. You know, at this point, what more does she need to do? does she need to be a part of the Avengers? Does she need to stop some aliens or the multiverse from shutting down? I don't think so.

Hawkeye is in the heart, okay? She earned that. All right, to be clear, to be clear, she got invited to that man's house. If she's not Hawkeye yet, like, when will she ever be? You don't invite many people into your abode. I think she got her Hawkeye training. She got some Hawkeye training from Clint.

I think something else is going to happen. I'll tell you what I think. I think the actual job. training that makes her super lethal and super capable. It's not going to come from Clint at all. I think it's going to come from Yelena. I think that the stuff that she was doing with Clint, Clint was showing her how to utilize some skills that she already had

and perfect them and fine-tuned them and use them. But I think the thing that's going to make her a more formidable hand-to-hand combatant that's going to teach her, because she already has a good understanding of how to get stuff, that's going to teach her like some more stealthy, some of the stuff that Clint has, right? Stealthy, moving off the grid, spy type stuff. She's actually going to end up learning that from Yelena. Being around Yelena is going to be where she picks that stuff up.

Clint is the one that gives her the confidence and initiates her into the world. And he might almost be like somebody she calls back to for time to time for advice and stuff. But a lot of what she gets that really, takes her. I see her in the Yelena in the dojo training. She's getting better. You know, all of that stuff. How tough of a beat

must it be for Lila Barton to see now Kate train at that farm? I already said this. He just, he just, he forgot about his, his own daughter. She was giving, she was giving her the side-eye. She's giving Kate the side-out, like, she's going to become a villain.

I know you ain't at my house right now. She's going to be, like, she's going to become a villain. She's going to be Lady Hydra. Watch. and then like Madam Hyde you got me a nerve gun I'm sitting around with a nerve gun like I see she over there eating a piece of it's probably they white so it's probably

a pumpkin pie she oh she like is she over there eating a piece of pumpkin pie man what are white people pies can you please tell me what white people pies so these are some right white people pies pumpkin pie

good okay that's not about you Steve it's not about you All right, relax on a almond joy. But anyway, man. Pumpkin pie, rhubarb pie. Banana cream.

Banana cream pie. Like a rhubarb pie. I've never heard of any nigger talk about I want to. Rubber's pretty good. Oh, whoa. It's good. By the way, a rhubarb pie is good. I'm not saying that a rhubarb pie is not good, but I've never heard anybody.

You know, man, I'll make some of that rhubarb pie. I've never heard of that. And then this is not a pie. It's a dish. Shout out to all my people in Minnesota. When I was in Minnesota, shout out to all my people in Minnesota. When I was in Minnesota, there was something called hot dish. You ever had a hot dish before?

No. So hot dish is like a, it's not a pie. It can be dessert hot dish. And I had dessert hot dish. But like they throw all of this stuff in, they throw like tater tots and all of this stuff into it. And then this hot dish is like a casserole almost. It's a tater-taught casserole is what it is. It's a tater-top casseroles, hot dish.

This might top the cornbread, collard green mash in terms of the mess. By the way, y'all are mad about that. Y'all are mad about that? Y'all are mad about that and y'all were wrong. Okay, so we all are in agreement then that Kate has earned her Hawkeye spot. She's earned that spot. She is now the Hawkeye of the MCU after this six episode run. Jomi, I didn't get you on that.

Oh, no, I mean, they talk about it, like, at the end of the episode. She's like, Lady Hawkeye, Lady Eve, Hawkeye, and then Clint's like, I have a better idea, and we get the title card, Hawkeye. Yeah. Right, so she is Hawkeye in the MCU.

So Clint's officially retired then. He's hinted to that retirement before. So you feel like Clint's like officially retired now? I think, you know, you guys, you know, they never really hang it up and he'll be available, you know, to come back when Jeremy Renner needs, you know, a couple bucks for the Jeremy Renner app.

but ultimately I think we won't see a lot of Jeremy Rand and Fry in the Arrow again and Kate Bishop will be our new to go arrow person in the MCU Wait talking about Hawkeye we totally blew past this What did you guys think of the costumes?

I like them I like Kate I need Kate to get the glasses though The glasses would be dope The glasses would make no sense in an actual fight in like live action I think they would be like dog The glasses aren't gonna work

And they're like now this doesn't work Yeah but I will say Hawkeye's costume costume, it's, it was bad. Like, I don't know if it's age of ultram bad, but I was fine. It's fine. It's fine. I thought it was fine. I thought it was fine. But here's the thing that, like, all right, no, I was about to quarter flip. I was about to flip. I was about to. I stopped. I stopped. You are a merry loo written.

Like, I'm telling you, we need to like, I was not going to. I stopped. I was not. Uh, by the way, shout out Simone Biles. Why did I go to Simone Biles for that? That was racist. if Steve would have said that that would have been racist, Simone Biles is better. Why would I have said that ever? All right, a couple of loose ends. Let's talk about them.

If we're going to flip, these are the, if we're going to quarter flip, this is the time of quarter flip. A couple of loose ends. The watch is Laura's watch, and it's a call back to agents of shield. Was this a plot point that was just thrown away? Okay.

Something that was just kind of thrown in there that ended up being as Anticamac as anything in the series. I've never seen Ages of Shield. I haven't watched it before. Jomey was, of course, give me the sound effect, locked in.

So Jomey, I need you to give me one minute on Agen's of Shield before we talk about the watch and talk about how it fits. If you can, related to Hawkeye, but why does this watch matter

in terms of age to seal, age of Shill, age of Shield? Shield, Agents of Shield, fandom and lore. This is a sad moment for me.

So at the back of the watch, it says 19. An age of 19 is famously mockingbird, who is Clint's wife,

or ex-wife in the comics. And on the Aces of Shield show, there was a mocking bird, but it

appears to not matter, which as an ace is a shield, fan, watch spent seven years invested, cared for these characters. And it seems like the MCU is throwing them away by the wayside. It's, um, it's honestly rough. It's disheartening. And I quite, quite frankly, I don't have the, I don't have the words to say how disappointed,

how disgusted and how distraught I am. This is, this is a rough moment for all. A's the Shields, hopefuls out there. And I just hope maybe one day we can get some cannon crumbs, maybe Colson, maybe fits, you know, maybe I don't even know anymore, man. It's just, it's just pain. It's just pain.

Jeremy, I want to let you know something really quick. I'm really, really sorry. Me too. But Kevin Feigy had to get that midnight mid out of here. Kevin Feigeyield. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.

My man. Kevin Feigen turned the page. Kevin Fecky turned the page. You know that sound? Wait, wait. You know that sound at the beginning of the old Marvel where the page was turning?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one of those bitches was Ais of Shield. Bang. It's not even, it's not fair. It's not fair. He didn't even give them variance or nothing. He's like, it's the multiverse.

He's like, nah, bro, we're going to forget about that one. Sorry, Johnny. Can't even get Colson, crumbs, nothing? Oh, man. It's over. Jack gets busy with his sword. we see a little swordsman,

I keep saying sword, swored in the old podcast. We get a little swordsman sword play. He's free from jail. Gets an invite to Larp for the Larpers. Jack. Was Jack? Jack is cool as fuck.

We all know that, right? Everybody fucks with Jack. Was Jack a good character, though? Was Jack a good character or was he wasted? Swordsman is a fairly sizable deal in Marvel Comics. And it seems like there's a throwaway character in here

based upon the first episode you were the thought swordsman was going to be a bigger deal in this series. Did they waste Jack Charles? I mean, he's an entertaining character. I love the humor and everything you bought to the series.

But I think the whole Duques stuff with Jack and Armand and all this stuff, big red herrings that just led, like, they just led nowhere. We all knew from like the first episode we were like, it's Eleanor, it's Eleanor.

Eleanor is evil. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And at the end, I was just like, why is Jack even in this thing? Like, not that I didn't enjoy him, but I just kind of felt like, is that his character arc? Is that all we get from him? Why am I supposed to care at the end of this besides him just being a hilarious human? Did you feel like he was a little, we were, we wasted some valuable time?

I felt like I wanted a little, I felt like I wanted this episode to kind of give me something that made. Jack's character more important than it had been in the last couple of episodes. Because it started off being a character that you thought was going to be important. And then the more we got to like him, the less important he actually became. So I wanted something that was going to make his character a little bit more important. But it was still cool to see. And plus, I wanted to see him really, really, really get busy with the sword.

He kind of did. But it would be cool to see. And we still haven't seen it, I guess, in Marvel. who are the best swordsmen right now in the MCU, you'd have to say? Like, who are the best guys? In the MCU? Or in the MOVICs?

No, no, no, no. In the MCU, have we seen guys, Taskmaster had a sword. Taskmaster? Let's see. Hawkeye would be up there. Hawkeye with Ronan, he had a sword. So we haven't really seen too much.

Oh, would Loki count? Loki has a blade, but it's not gray. He's saggers. Yeah. Yeah. One of the Warriors three. One of the Warriors three, yeah. has a sword.

So we've seen... Fan draw. Fan draw. Fandrawl, yeah. We haven't seen very much from it. So it'll be cool to see like a master swordsman. It's a fairly... I mean, you know,

Thanos had a sword, but it's a fairly new weapon in Marvel. You don't see it that often. So it's been cool to see him really, really, really get busy. I think we will. You know, we got some sword guys coming up. Who? Siff has a sword.

Lady Siff uses a sword. She doesn't really get busy with it, though. I love Siftoe. She doesn't really, really get busy with it. She does so many things. There's a lot of swords going on in the Thor era, but they don't really get busy with them. I want to see somebody that's like a sword. Well, we got, we got sword guys coming though. We got Blay coming. We got Black Knight coming. Yes, sir. You know, so. Or the God butcher. Goer to God butcher is coming. A lot of people. Sword, sword era is coming. Okay. Have to ask the question. The Kazi Showdown with,

Echo at the end. Did it have the weight? Was it romantic and sad for them? Like did you feel, she had to kill him? She had to kill him. Maybe he's dead. Maybe he's not.

How did you feel about the Kasi? Echo Showdown? She finally knows about him. He knows about her. She wanted to run away and leave together. He could not leave together. It's unclear to me whether or not they have more of a brother-s-s-sister relationship

or whether or not it's more of romantic thing? I really don't know. But how did that emotional toll way on you when you saw that hit his death in the end? I felt bad for Maya. I don't know if it really hit me in the way I think maybe the writers and directors wanted it to because there was so much else going on.

We got a little bit of Maya and Kasi. But to your point, I was interested. I'm just like, all right, how much do they know each other? Is this a romantic relationship to your point? Is the brother and sister relationship? Why did Kazi go out of his way to set up her father? Like, we kind of know that he always wanted that top role,

but we never kind of got their backstory about, like, why does Kazi want to be in charge of the track suit mafia and stuff? So I was just a little bit like, maybe they'll talk about it a little bit more in the Echo series. Like maybe we'll get a return of Kazi. Maybe they'll fill in some of those gaps. But yeah, I still love Maya. I think Kazi killed it.

And then he end up getting killed by my girl, my. Would you have rather seen a Kate and Kingpin fight or a Maya in Kingpin fight? Probably Kate and Kingpin. I think it was a good way. I think in that situation, if you're going to make a new Hawkeye, then you want the new Hawkeye to take on the most dangerous threat that's walking around. I think Kingpin qualifies as that. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that in terms of like we need to know that like Kate has

the ability to be a hero. But I was waiting for like Maya to get a little bit of that release of like, this man killed my dad. We're about to go at it because she's supposed to be a master hand-to-hand combatant. I just wanted her to get one more shot

because even the Kazi fight, she killed him real quick. Like she got rid of him easily. So let me ask you this though. Let's go back to Kingpin and Maya. She pulls off on him. playing blank range, boom, boom. Do you think Kingpin's dead?

In the comic books, he is, this exact same thing happens, he's blinded. Yeah. But he is not dead. Do you think Kingpin is dead in the situation? There is, there is no way Kingpin is dead. You do not go through all of this trouble to introduce this character that's beloved.

To be like, oh, he was in one full episode, and now he's dead. No, he's coming back. I wouldn't be surprised if, he comes back in the Echo series. I don't think this is the last that we've seen of him. So yeah,

then you don't think he's really yet. No. There's absolutely zero way they would bring him back for what would essentially be a one episode cameo and not use King Pan anymore. And that's why I don't,

I kind of don't dig shit like that. Like, we know he's not dead. So, like, I think the bigger surprise would be if he was dead, but we know that he's not dead. So since we know that he's not dead, don't give us a cliffhanger we can't use anything unless they're going to fundamentally alter

their kingpin version for the MCU and differentiate it from the kingpin that we see that we saw should I say on the Netflix situation so you know this kingpin already uses this cane I would be remiss if I didn't mention that this kingpin got a little drip with him okay Hawaiian Christmas kingpin what the hell that's what I'm talking about Did he look a little heftier to you? A little bit heftier. A little heftier. He looked like he was a little bit bigger than he was in Daredevil. Yeah.

So like I got to get you guys his opinion on the Hawaiian shirt. That was killing it, bro. He's just like me for real. Yeah. He's doing his thing. Have you seen my wardrobe? That's my, that's my go to the Hawaiian shirt. It's all hockey jerseys and Hawaiian shirts.

Exactly. Hawaiian shirts for the summer. Hockey's jerseys for the fall. You see it. You see it. You see it. But no, no, the drip was amazing, you know, it was a fit check moment. I loved it.

I loved it. I thought, like, look at this mother. At first I was like, I was like, Kingpin, you do your thing, bro. Love you, man. Do you think Kingpin listens to Rick Ross? It's like aspirational. I can see him. I can see Kingpin rolling down the show.

I'm the biggest boss that you've seen thus far. That should be King Penn's theme song because he is the biggest boss that we've seen thus far. Okay. So here comes the point where we do the thing that is the, the enemy of joy. It's the thief of joy. Comparison. Comparison is the thief of joy, but you guys want us to do it. The MCU TV slate for 2021 is done. We have Wanda Vision, Falcon, and Winter Soldier. Loki, what if, and now Hawkeye. Charles, how would you rank these MCU shows? WandaVision, Falcon and Winter Soldier,

Loki, What If, and Hawkeye? And tell us why you put them in the way that you put them. Loki, easily, number one. Hawkeye, number two, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, number three, Wanda Vision number four. What If, number five, y'all know, like if y'all listen to the what if podcast, y'all know I was a little bit up and down on that series.

It was animation. It's not in the same ballpark. Loki, come on. Loki is the Loki was what? The only I feel like show that really surprised us that really was just like oh shit

they did it, they didn't pull back. I know a bunch of people are going to be like but WandaVitia P.HRA, I'm like yeah, but they didn't stick with it. It was a whole big joke, whatever. So Loki's number one. And then I would say, I just think Hawkeye in terms of like quality

was the most consistent out of all of these. Like there was never an episode. I was just like, why am I watching this? Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Wanda Vision, similar, similar. They had to get some of the kinks out. They had to work a little bit of the king's out, but I think towards the end of the year, they're firing on all cylinders. What is your ranking, though, fan?

Five, what if? Four, Wanda Vision. Three, Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Two, Hawkeye, one Loki. We agree. Yeah. That is my, I am a Falcon and the Winter Soldier stand. I don't think you guys remember.

I don't think you guys remember. Falcon of the Winter Soldier, Falcon of the Winter Soldier had the Internet in its clutches, the power broker, all of that stuff. Falcon and the Winter Soldier, to me, had more, it was like a lot of, it was, there was more talk about Falcon and the Winter Soldier to me than there was about, Hawkeye. All right. Stop the cap. Like,

I agree with you on most things. Yeah. Stop the cat. Play the music. People thought Reed Richards was like every week. It was like some. You met. See,

you didn't even listen. I did. Can you play stop the cap for him? No. No, no, no. No. No. No. You doesn't have evidence. Because that's not what I said. Don't you stop the cap against me? I said there was more talk about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier than

Hawkeye. Oh, then Hawkeye. That's what I said. So you're not even listening. All right. My bad. My bad. I apologize.

Played again. Played again, Steve. Yeah. So, you know, and by the way, look, I just, I loved Falcon and Lunar Soldier. I loved it. Hawkeyes better. Hawkeyeye is better than the Falconer of a Soldier. It's not particularly close.

But I liked Falcon and a Warrior better than Wandavision. I did. I did. I'm sorry. Wild. Why? Wait, wait, wait, wait. What's wild? Liking Hawkeye more than Falcon? Liking Falcon and Soldier that much.

It's wild. I mean, it's, what? We have it at number three. It's not that big of a, I mean, if I had to put them, I would say, what if I, Falcon and Winner Soldier 4, Hawkeye 3, Wanda Vision 2, and Loki 1. You're wilding. I agree with Jomey. wild. Here's my thing. Here's my thing. I think nostalgia got people

tripping on Wanda Vision because it was the first Disney Plus show. And like every week, it was like the first time we're like, all right, week to week, like, what are we doing? What are the Easter eggs? Who's coming? Mephisto, Re Richards. But like if we're being real, like those first couple episodes of Wanda Vision, I was like. I love the Wanda Vision. I liked it.

I do think that like looking back on it now, there are things in Wanda Vision, like for example, that things are Wondivision that are just there, that like, you know, like the commercials. And we've talked about this. Like the commercials, were supposed to be Dr. Strange's messages to Wanda, but the strange cameo never popped up, so the commercials just exist for nothing.

Well, is that a rumor or is that confirmed? No, we were just getting crazy with theories. That was the most, I think, out of pocket, the internet and the collective fandom were getting with theories. Like, we were thinking everything. We thought Al Pacino as Mephisto was showing up at the end of that show.

Yeah, people said it. So my thing is I really enjoyed it. I think, and we'll talk about it. I think the finale knocked it back a little bit. Some of the Vision stuff knocked it back a little bit. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. And to me, the fact that Wanda Vision almost didn't pay off on any of the theories,

the theories to me started to outweigh the show. That also kind of happened in a couple of other shows, too. So let's wait. I think that's a fan problem. That's not a show problem. No, I don't think that's a fan problem. Well, what I'll say is that it is a fan problem, but it's also a show problem

if the show ends up being significantly less interesting than what people were conjecturing the show to be. Well, I mean, that's imagination, though. I can do that in my life right now. Check this, Jomey. Here's the thing. If you're going to do something

like introduce Pietro from another universe, the writers, Kevin Feige, the MCU knows what they're doing. You are inviting that level. of speculation. And then when you pull it back, you can't be like, it's a fan problem now because y'all can't stop guessing.

No, no, no. I don't disagree with Ralph Boner, right? That's ridiculous. But when we're talking Fantastic Four Macistro, all that stuff. That's not on that. That's one thing. That's just one thing, though. But what I'm saying is that, what I'm saying is that to me,

in the end, like, Wanda Vision was a little too straightforward for me. It didn't pay off on the intrigue of the show. The show, Wanda Vision did something that was so specifically signature that I don't know another MCU show that'll be able to do it but I'll be honest with you after a while to me that trick or that sort of device

it just became it didn't pay off to me and we'll talk about this different people have different tastes I thought Falcon and Women Soldier I liked it more it doesn't even necessarily mean that it's better it doesn't I'm not even say it better I'm saying it like I like it's fair I just think personally

Like that finale For leaving just thinking about fineries That was probably the worst finale Of all of Wanda Vision No Falcon of Winter Soldier Because That dude just spent like 15 minutes talking

And I think the WandaVision finale Was worse than the Falcon and World Soldier No I don't I think I think like It's probably like If I had to put Falcon Winters Soldier 5 That finale is probably like

Four Three or four But not like in a super higher quality. I don't love, I don't love them. But dude, watching Sam talk for 10 minutes about virtues. Yeah, that was bad. That was stupid. That was stupid. I was like, what are we doing? But I think this, I think the big CGI fight at the end of Wanda Vision was. Yeah, I can see that. At points, unwatchable. Um, I'm serious. So let's write the finals real quick before we get out

of here. Five shows, write the finale. All right. Loki finale number one, Hawkeye finale number two. Can I tie like WandaVision, like, WandaVis after the Minnesota? What is? is like just all bad. Like, is it like Loki a country mile then the Hawkeye finale? No, it's like Loki up here. It is like, Hawkeye is like not even in the same stratosphere.

And then what if Wanda Vision of Falcon and the Winter Soldier? I don't even know why we would talk about those. So so here's my thing. This is the ranking. At number one, Loki finale. No other finale is on the list. That's the ranking. I'm serious. Loki finale number one.

Yeah. everything else is not it's not even like I'm not saying that they were all the same I'm saying that like there's really no discernible difference they have a finale problem I think they'll work their finale problem out but they they had a finale problem with these and I don't think it's necessarily a storytelling defect in the finalities themselves I personally think that these shows either got to be a little bit longer or they actually have to dial back what they're putting into because because I tell you what problem they don't have They don't have a penultimate episode problem. Yeah. The penultimate episodes are normally rocking. The penultimate episode of Falcon and the Winter Soldier is probably the best one out of any of this. Yeah. So they certainly don't have a penultimate episode problem.

But the finale's are a little bit lacking right now. You guys, that's a wrap or not just the show. It's a rap on Hawkeye. What a sad time. A rap on Hawkeye. We've seen Hawkeye. Hawkeye, it's over. But we're going to see more K Bishop in the future.

More K Bishop in the future. I'm very, very happy. Hawkeye's over, flip-point. Yeah. Remember, programming reminders. Friday, the House of R will return with their deep dive on the Hawkeye finale. You know, heard someone talk about the fact that when we did the podcast with the House of Var, that they were so much more articulate than we are over here on the Midnight Boys.

I saw that comment. racism alert. Like, I was, oh, yo. I'm like, damn, you know when they start using words like articulate, like,

like, come on, bro. Come on. I was like, I didn't even, I didn't comment anything. I was about to be like, oh, for real? Wow.

Damn. They are brilliant. They are brilliant. Oh, no. Shout out to them. Come on. It's like going to university. Also, Monday,

you have to listen to the Midnight Boys and Joanna Robinson giving our thoughts on the Matrix Reseractions. you guys go watch the Matrix today go watch it go watch it it it's gonna be a funny time

you're gonna have a great time okay go watch the matrix today that's all I'm gonna say next Wednesday we're the midnight boys are gonna be back all four of us we will give our reactions to the premiere of the book of Boba Fett we are back

Star Wars we're going to a galaxy far far away we're going back a long long time ago at Ringer versus on Facebook IG Twitter join and send your questions ideas and thoughts. Producer credit. Of course, our producer is the greatest producer working,

Steve Allman, Joy, the cuddly Christmas bear. Jomi, the Explanator at Dinner on, is on socials. Hashtag free Jomey. Additional production by Arjunoram Gapal, and of course, better, not seen, not heard. Shout out T.D. You love you, Ben. Producer T. We love you, producer T.D.

Charles takes us out. Hawkeye is over. And boy, Was it a trip? Officially, my boys is never talking about this fucking quarter. Let me! Think about if the truck hits. It's all kinds of, nah, they went too far, bro, with the truck.

So you're saying the murder was justified, Ben? They got turned into a micromachine. And I got out to be honest with you, I have no issue with it. What was that guy that used to talk super fast? Remember that guy? Remember the micro, you guys were too young for the, micro machines guy. Oh my God.

I think I vaguely remember micro machines. Wait a minute. You, wait, wait. So when I said micro machines, you guys don't know what micro machines are at all. They're like the tiny transformers. No, they're not little transformers. They're just like little cars and trucks.

And there used to be this guy. Oh, my God. They used to find this under, do you guys remember this? Old Man Van Van right here. They used to be this guy. And he had like a motor mouth. And he would come on and he would be like

doing a micromachines commercial, and he would be talking super duper fast. This is the micro machine man presenting the most midget miniature motorcade of micro machines. Plus incredible micromachine pocket play sets. Each one comes with its own special edition, micro machine vehicle and fun fantastic features, and there's micro machine service and many more. And these play sets fit together to form a perfectly precise micro machine world.

The micrachines collect and raise them from glue. Remember if it doesn't say micromachines, it's not the real thing. And it was about micromachines, the little cars and trucks. You guys don't remember this. I don't know this early 90s. Yo, what type of fucking Traders Joe's, like, Hot Wheels are these, bro? Like, I look these up. I'm like, they don't even transform.

Like, these don't do shit, bro. They're not as good as Hot Wheels. Let's keep it gangster. They don't, like, I can tell from the picture they ain't Hot Wheels, bro. Let's, let's keep it gangster. But they were micromachines, and they had their moment. Put in Google fast-talking micromachian car. I see, I'm seeing him right now.

He's still alive. He's still alive? How old is it? John Machita. How old is he? He's 67. Wait, shout out to him. What?

He's 67. How can the micro machines, nigga, only be 67? Hold on for a second. Well, hold on. Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Oh, my God. The micro machines guy looked old as piss.

He was in his 20s and 30s doing that. Oh, right. Oh, right, then. Brow, right. Some respect on the micr machines, man. How could the micromanchees? I would have swore that the micromachine guy was in his 40s. or his 50s then.

But I guess he was in his 30s. Oh, look at him. He still looks like, oh, shit. Yeah. Out of pocket. He had been credited with the Guinness Book of World Records, world fastest talker. This guy could say 586 words per minute.

Five hundred and 86 were no mamas. Really? Yeah. He's doing this thing. All right. Look, I don't, look, micromachines. Can I, last question about micromachines. Is the reason that you love these so much is because you ask for Hot Wheels for

Christmas and you ended up with micromachines. I wasn't into cars like that. It was the commercials. I never really had micro machines. Like I wasn't like I wasn't really into you step on them, hurt your feet. Like I wasn't really into cars like that. Like that wasn't my thing. I was into it because the commercial with the guy talking fast was cool, bro.

That was my God. Because the guy talked fast and you just bought a toy. You have to understand, bro. Like that was a micro machines. Blah-blah-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And he was doing the whole thing. It was super dope. And I'm glad that he's only 67.

I'm going to reach out to him. Get him on the podcast. Get him on the pod. Like, I'm serious. I'm glad. 67, that man's still spry doing this thing. You call that my oldest piss,

bro. Like, no, no, no, no, no, I thought he was old as piss then.

Because he was like, oh, that changes it. That changes it. That changes. No, no, no,

no, no, I did not mean, I'm looking at him and he actually does look kind of youthful then, but it's, he seemed, oh, look at him.

This is him. The micromachines got, anyway. Post credits. Post credits. Feels like every product claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source. Like real California milk from California farm families,

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