The Ringer-Verse - ‘House of the Dragon’ Episode 3 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

Joanna and Mal return to discuss the third episode of ‘House of the Dragon’! They offer thoughts on the episode when they Rally the Realm (5:06). Then they head to the Dragon Pit and dive deep into the episode (19:03). Later they give out awards for the episode (2:13:32) before getting into book spoilers and future-episode speculation (2:24:24). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's The Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson. I've read every book in George R. Martens, A Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spin-off series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your question, so send us a raven at trial by content at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the trial by content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The reins of Castamere hasn't even been written yet. Adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumfaya, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease. and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur.

Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas.

As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. I sought that vision again night after night, but it never came again. I poured all my thought and willing to it. My obsession killed Reneira's mother.

The Saras. I thought Reneer was the way out of my abyss of grief and regret. And naming her air would begin to set things right. Oh, it did. I never imagined I would remarry. That I would have a son. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast. Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the

Kingswood, but also to join us on the ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me she doesn't have a dragon pit, of course, but she does have the means and resources to build one. It's my house of our Ranking title. Go host Joanna Robinson. L'Aruben, I fear the gods do not make me for hunting. Might I sit with you and podcast a while? Oh, absolutely. Here, have some cookies to nibble on.

Oh, yeah. We are, of course, here to dive deep today into House of the Dragon, episode three. Second of his name, written by Ryan Condal and Gabe Fonseca, directed again by Greg But before we mount C-smoke and soar into our deep dive, some quick programming reminders here at the top, as always. By now, you know the hot D slate. Talk to Thrones on Sunday night, right here. The watch on Sunday night. House of R on Tuesday, right here. Try it by content on Thursdays. Listen to all of it. Don't skip a second of it. But that's not all. If you want to mix in some hardfoots with your dragons, Joe and I will have a deep.

dive on the latest Rings of Power episode for you every single Friday right here on the ringerverse. We are loving Rings of Power. We cannot wait to break down the newest episode later this week. The Midnight Boys, pew, pew, pew, will of course also be with you on Wednesdays and our Shehulk pods will continue on Thursdays. Follow all of that by following the ringerverse and try out by content and the watch on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And by following the ringer versus social feeds. Check out the ringerverse on Twitter, Instagram,

TikTok, and send us your emails. Joe, where can people reach us? Oh, Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com. Thank you for all your house with dragon emails, but also thank you for all your rings of power theory emails. You know I'm eating all of your theories up.

We're going to talk about them on Friday. I'm so excited. So Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. I love it. I love it. And of course, bear in mind our friendly neighborhood, spoiler warning. Today's podcast will feature plot details from the third House of the Dragon episode, second of his name, all of hot D to date. Anything that happened in Game of Thrones is on the table.

On the book front, we will be incorporating book canon from a song of ice and fire and fire and blood throughout the entire pod today for lore insights, historical context and parallels. But the bulk of our pod will not feature any future fire and blood details. have a dedicated section at the end of today's show for book spoiler talk, what we will discuss how this episode of HotD sets the stage for some of what's to come in the text. You will get another spoiler warning right before that section begins. Rest assured. Okay. Programming reminders have been dispensed. Spoiler warnings have been issued. It is time to rally the realm with our opening snapshot. Joanna Robinson, first of her name. Yes.

Quick overall impressions on this year episode three of Hot D. So I think of the three that we've seen so far, I quite liked a lot of it. I would say I liked, I don't know, three-fourths, two-thirds, depending on how you're counting the runtime of this episode. But I think it was my least favorite of the three that we've seen so far just because it feels a bit uneven. But I liked a good deal of it. All the hunt stuff I really liked. How about you, Mao? You love a hunt.

I do love a hunt. You love a hunt. You're like George out there for years saying that Bobby B. Hunt was not what I had in mind. I need a full spread. I need roasted pork. I need pears that have been boiled and stewed. We should say, like, for folks who don't know, this is a quote that's been circling around a lot this week is that in James Hibbard's book about Thrones, George said his one regret from the one scene that really rankled him in season one was the fact that like the Robert Bradson's, Hunt was just like four guys perambulating in a woods and that... Chat about making the eight. A hunt should have hundreds of people.

This feeds into the whole Robert Barathean was broke, a meme that has been circulating since the tourney, but that this is, like some people consider this a kind of make good for George. We know that George is a little bit more involved in this show. We know that Ryan Condal, like Sir Kristen Cole, owes his position entirely to George. So George is out there saying, I don't. didn't really care for that season one Thrones hunt. Ryan Conn was

like, oh, you want a royal hunt, George? I'll give you a royal hunt. Anyway, that's where we are. I don't want any stag to be harmed ever, but I do love the spread. I love to see all of the roasted meats

and baked goods and all of the tense, and it really was just an incredible set piece. It's cool in the House the Dragons built featurette on the episode really, really amazing to see the scale of what went into filming that. They're like, we got chicken pluckers. We've got latrine diggers. Yeah. Oh, boy. So overall, my feelings on the episode, I would say that everything in King's Landing, which is about, yeah, I think three quarters, 45-ish minutes.

of the plot. We have the opening in the stepstones. We have the conclusion in the stepstones. The bulk of the episode in Kings Landing was probably my favorite stretch of material that we've gotten so far this season. I loved it. I thought it was rich and thematically compelling and incredibly well acted. The Stepstones was probably my least favorite part of the season. So I think we're on the same page there that on balance, the episode, much like Damon and Corliss are at war with the Stepstones, the episode has a lot of the episode. The episode had a little bit of a war for me and my feelings within it. But the Kingslanding stretch was really phenomenal.

We met so many interesting new characters in this episode. We have your fave, Larry Strong. Harwin Strong's here. We've got Jason and Thailand Lannister. That's fun. We will be talking, of course, about our guy the crab feeder. Gone. Not too soon, but gone, nonetheless.

And before we move into our deep dive, should we chat for a minute about the amount of time that passed between this episode? Because it is a bit of a shock to realize that we are at Prince Agon's second name day and that three years in total have passed between episodes two and three. So we had six months passed between one and two, three years between two and three. That is quite a stretch of our characters' lives to be catching up on. in real time. And I think that for some, that's proving to be a little bit of a challenge when it comes to orienting a new inside of each episode. How are you feeling about the way that the time jumps are unfolding? You asked me last week if I had like time jump jitters and I felt like I didn't last week. But I do feel like I have them a little this week. And it's not because I feel that

disoriented because you and I are studying the text so closely and we are knee deep in the book and all that sort of stuff. But the number of emails we got immediately from people saying, who was that dragon and who was on that dragon? To me, that speaks to if we had met Lenore significantly before this episode, Valerian. And if we had even met Seas Smoke, his dragon, before we first see Seas Smoke go into battle, that confusion wouldn't be there. So that's just like just one moment of time, you know, learning that the Valerians are, Dragon Riders at all, which is something that newcomers to the show don't realize. Like, all this sort of stuff, that's a virtue of them yada, yada, yada, yadding over certain

things. And so, yeah, I think we're seeing it sort of take its toll on the more casual watcher. What do you think, Mal? Yeah, I miss one of my favorite things about watching Game of Thrones, which was, you know, we talked about this with Crispin on Sundays Talk to Thrones. getting to live in the supreme tense strain and awkwardness of the immediate fallout of people's decisions. So I think the Lain-or and C-spoke point you raised is a great one in terms of the actual like plot and mechanics and introduction of the characters, understanding how time is passing

in that battle and what is actually unfolding. But I found myself craving all of those in between moments most in more of the quieter interpersonal dynamics. Like, for example, we have this really agonizing sequence in the godswood when Alicent goes out to search for Reneira. And of course, Allison knows where she will be and knows where to find her because Reneira is in the place where they used to pass their time together, studying the books that they used to read, listening to Samwell's songs about Nimeria, a figure from history that they used to talk about. and study together. It's funny you say songs when really it's just the one track.

Just the one. Just the one. On loop. On repeat. I sometimes listen to a song that I'm digging like 500 times in a row before I move on to something else. So I'm with it. Oh, big time.

This is how the song of Nymeria lands on her Spotify Rapped playlist. Exactly. Yeah. We'll have to figure out what her year-end Spotify-wrapped aura would be based on, based on that particular musical inclination and setting. But we see the real cold nature of what is unfolding there. Of course, the hurt and the real despair that is defining Rainer's reality, which we'll talk about across the episode today, and Allison's attempt to reach out to her and say, it doesn't have to be this way. And I'm thinking, I would love to have seen their first conversation, the interaction

right after the announcement of the engagement. What was the wedding like? And I think, that we, the moments that we get are rich and intriguing and highly compelling. And this episode in the Kings Landing stretches, the Kingswood stretches, did a really great job of establishing frame of mind, doubt, ambition, and setting the stakes for what's to come. I just would love to spend every moment in between with the characters, but then we have a 20-year show instead of a three-to-four year one. So I recognize that it's a challenge. And I think it was interesting to hear on the inside of the episode, Ryan Condal, one of the co-writers of this episode and one of the showrunners for the series, acknowledging that this is a thing that the audience is going to have

to hang with for a bit. He said a substantial amount of time passes off screen and we're just asking the audience to pay attention, listen and play along and figure out what's gone on in between. And I think that the fact that they recognize, which of course they would, that this is a unique structure for a show that requires real attentive viewing and buy-in, I think it's important because it's on their mind as they're crafting the show. And ultimately, I think active viewing is a really rewarding way to watch the show. So I'm not concerned overall, but I do recognize that this is probably, this is probably a challenge for some people. We got an email from listener, Pete.

Sorry, the cause give me every time. P. wrote, as someone who's never read the books and doesn't want to Google to avoid spoilers, how much time does the book cover that is available for the show? Since we're doing time jumps at a rapid pace, I'm assuming this season is the Renera season, and we move on to another story next season? Or is there a lot more to Reneer's era to fill more than one season at this pace? So I don't, like, neither of us want to get in too much detail, because that's the mystery for the non-book readers that's unfolding in front of them.

But we think it's safe to say something that George has said out there in the press, which is that this first season is going to cover 28 years of story. It's a lot of story. We're only, I don't know what, four years in or something like that, right? And also, in terms of the book, though, there's a lot more story to come. So I think we can say that this story, which broadly recalling the Dance of Dragons, is not going to be a one-season story. And we had another listener email in asking sort of because they like to follow along in the books where we are in the books.

And I will just say that if you want to read Fire and Blood, which I always encourage because you get to listen to the whole podcast episode with us in my copy, which is the hardcover. It starts at page 339, which is Ayers of the Dragon, a question of succession. And then kind of goes to page 568. And then after that is a chapter called Aftermath. And there's a bunch of chapters that deal with the aftermath, which we don't know. the show may or may not go into. But just for like the dance itself, that's the chunk. And if you want to know where we are right now when we reference things, and really,

there's only like two sentences from the chapter that pertain to this episode, we're still firmly in Ears of the Dragon, a question of succession. That's the chapter we're in in, fire and blood. So that's sort of the book update. But yeah, miles to go before we sleep here, Mallory Rubin. And I'm delighted. I can't wait to walk those. miles with you through the Kingswood. It's a lovely day. Let's take in the Kingswood together

as Renero and Kristen did. Just like, just like just like just like. We today, the last two weeks we have gone chronologically through the episode, today we're going to group our deep dive by storyline instead. Location. Yeah. Indeed. And so because we're not going chronologically, going to do a quick plot summary before we dive in. The dragon has three heads. The plot summary has three minutes. That's the goal to come in south of three minutes. We'll see if we can do it. We open in the stepstones where our guy, Kragus Krabfeeder, is still hammering away at both his to-do list in the hands of enemy sailors. Back in King's Landing, Sir Hugh of the Vale, reborn as a time traveler now appearing in house at the dragon as twins Thailand and Jason

Lannister tells the king the step zone situation is urgent. Miss Harris couldn't give the two shits from a stag that he'll later rub between his fingers because folks, it's Prince Agon's second name day. Record scratch. Three years have passed between episodes. Miseras and Allison are married. Allison is pregnant already with their second child and Aegon is not only the toast of the town but the object of many plots.

The high towers and countless others want and expect him to replace her near as air, much to Reneira's dismay and Viserra's mounting annoyance. Marriage teams mix with succession schemes as Reneera discovers her father's hope to wed her to Jason Lannister and his honeyed wine and amid a highly public blowup between father

and daughter of the realms would-be matchmakers begin to make their cases, including Otto's pitch for two-year-old Eagon presently suiling his small clothes on the floor and Lionel Strong's much more well-reasoned case for Lainor Valerian. The only thing more persistent than the scheming is the king's drink

drinking deep in his cups, he reveals his dragon dream to Alicent, then battles both an epic hangover and the realization that the fabled white heart so many have identified as a portent for Agon's name day did not come to him after all. It came for Reneira, who bathed in blood from slaying aboard decides to let the snag go. She's not the only roguish Targaryen reborn and fire and blood this episode. Damon rocking a new hairdo and unwilling to let big Bro, save him, puts Rickon Stark's combined stats to absolute shame, luring the crabfeater's man out of their cave into his 40-yard dash zone. Corliss's cavalry in the fire from Lainor Valerian's Mount Seasmoke arrived to overpower the enemy and Damon slays the

crab feeder with Dark Sister, dragging him into the sea where his own leaking intestines can feed his crabs. On to the deep dive. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle

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save at Whole Foods Market. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphaya, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur.

Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need of a virus. vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiara.com. Unbelievable. Every week. Every week. Even though this section is called Into the Dragon Pit, I forget, every week. It's the dragon screen. I don't. It's like the highlight of my week. I just like sit here in anticipation for the squawk. Remarkable stuff. All right, Joe. Yeah.

Let's start with the stepstones in your favorite foe and character in the history of stories. Cragus Crab Feeder. Just a profoundly deep character, I find. Okay, I'm going to repeat what I did on Talk of Thrones and just read for folks who didn't listen to that episode, how this is described. Have to do it. In fire and blood. George R.R. Martin ever heard of him, writes, it is not our purpose here to recount the details of the private war.

Damon Targaryen and Coralus Valerian waged on the stepstones. Damon had little difficulty in assembling an army of landless adventures and second sons. When at last he came face to face with Cragut's crab feeder. He slew him single-handed and cut off his head with Dark Sister. And that's it. That's all Ryan Condell and his room of writers have to work with here. That being said, in terms of adaptation, there's a profound amount. Like, I love that sometimes that there is so little to work with that you get to elaborate on.

One of my favorite Game of Thrones episodes, Hard Home, is exactly that based on sort of a tossed off line in George's book. So both this sequence and we'll get to it when we get to the hunt sequence are really based off of one line from the text. and it gives House of the Dragon opportunity to elaborate. I don't feel like they really took full advantage of that opportunity. What do you think, Mallory? Yeah, I think the hard home point is a great one. Because part of what made that so thrilling and to this day still so iconic and one of the best, not only battles, but episodes of Game of Thrones,

is the actual filming of the battle, what is unfolding on the screen, the shock of it, but also more broadly, the way that we and John and the free folk, no one moving toward this urgent point and urgent doom, but also are blindsided by what unfolds in real time. The Stepsones is almost the opposite of that,

where there is more buildup and set up than is warranted for what is, going to unfold. And it's one of the things that, you know, we've been chatting about in the first couple episodes offline just in our texting and our slacking. Boy, we're given the crab feeder grayscale. There's all this talk across the app, which means one of the first things we hear about with Corlaces please and pushes to address the threat. Obviously, it's like the final, really energizing note of episode two. Let's go do our own thing. Let's go. Let's go. We're take our own claim, let's go win our own war. And always love to see a dragon out in the field.

When that flame hits my screen and the people I'm watching turn to dust, it's always exciting, of course. But this is certainly not my favorite Game of Thrones battle. For all of the reasons we've just discussed, I think the timeline feels extra muddled in the battle itself because of the amount of time that has passed between to the point where you end up running through a set of questions in your mind as you're watching instead of just losing yourself completely and what is unfolding.

Like, okay, we hear Le Norse during their war council that it's pointless. The crab feeder has created this choke point beyond the dunes, the archers are up in these high positions. The foot soldiers hold the ground. They're strafing on dragon back again, And again, nothing is happening.

They've retreated into the caves. And I'm like, well, we see what we think, at least in the opening series of the episode, is the retreat into the caves, right? But then I'm like, you pair that with Thailand's appeal to Vassaris about how urgent it is. When did the retreat into the caves happen? Is that immediate as soon as they face the dragons? And then we have to ask, did it take them three years to realize they should try to bait the guy to come out? or was a whole war being waged for this long stretch of time

and then finally that attack from Damon and Caraxis changed something about the circumstances and they sheltered in the caves. We know that it's not just about the sheltering. They're losing the men. They're losing the ships. They've got 16 to 18 ships. It's not enough.

So we have all of these data points, but we just don't have a lot of clarity about what is unfolding. And when the battle is presented as something that is really like high consequence, you feel those omissions, keenly. I think the other thing that I was feeling during the battle is that we know so few of the characters. We'll talk about the crab feeder more. We know very little. We've, we've of course

shared our canonical insights about the triarchy, the crab feeder, et cetera, the stepstones themselves, why this is a location of consequence. But we don't have any emotional investment in the foe. What I would say is equally true, though, is that we barely know any of our heroes. We are very invested quickly in Damon, of course, and we're invested in Corliss. But we only know four characters on that side, and two of them, Lanor and Vaman, we meet in this episode, in this sequence. So when we're watching John and Torman and Hardholm, it is difficult to think of characters we care about more at that point in the story. But even the introduction of those characters, like, I don't want to harp on this too much because there's a lot we loved in this episode. But like, the miracle of

Hard Home, and I've talked about this elsewhere, but the miracle of Hard Home for me is a character like Carsey, who's a character we literally meet in that episode, and she dies in that episode. Spoilers for Hard Home, I apologize, but like she dies in that episode, and I'm extremely emotionally invested in her. She gets great moments before the fighting starts. And again, a reminder that Hard Home is, the Battle of Hard Home is not the entirety of that episode. It's a great comp because similar to the Stepstones, it is only part of that episode. And yet, they establish these free folk in the span of this episode that we care about Carsey Chief among them, you know.

And so when she dies her, you know, we care. And so we should care more about Lenore at this point than we do. We should have spent more time with him rather than just a brief appearance at attorney. Maybe he's there when his poor little sister is being trotted around the gardens or something like that. We should know him better than we do. We should know that he is a dragon. We should know Corliss.

brother, you know, we should know who these people are. We should know, I mean, like, a wild thing in that, in that war council, which is where we meet those two characters, really. Jeffrey of Lawnmouth, who's the, the knight of the kisses is also there, but he doesn't, like, that's a character, but we don't get to know him before the battle. So, you know, we may get to know more of him in the future, but I'm just sort of like, why don't, why don't we know these dynamics? And again, that's a, that's a virtue of the fast forward, of the time jump, right? Because we can't get to know

teenage Lenore because last time we saw him, he was a preteen, and we don't get to see him in the interviewing years. Yeah, I do think the Lainor C-Smoke thing is really key

because we hear multiple times throughout the episode dragons, plural. And so it's, we are waiting for the reveal that there's another dragon at play in the field. We see multiple dragons

that Lenore is moving around on the War Council board. You know, we know from the 10, from Fire and Blood that at the Great Council of 101 AC, Lainor had already bonded with C-Smoke, hadn't written him yet, but had already bonded with him. And so perhaps the timeline in the show is similar,

and he has bonded with him for quite some time, maybe even been a dragon for writer for quite some time. Maybe this is one of the characters who Reneira is referring to in episode two when she says, you have dragon riders, send us. But we don't know that. And that's strange to me. Like, it's more fulfilling to see, to learn how he claimed him. Also, I think, given the dynamic between House Valerian and House Targaryen and how much time is being spent, establishing the really crucial nature of reforging the bond between those houses, Corliss at some point saying, my son has a dragon, dragon riding.

My family are now dragonriders would be like a relevant thing for these characters to acknowledge. Lionel Strong when he's making the proposal pitch to Vassaris, making the case for Linau. Note, hey, he's got a dragon too. We're setting it up as a surprise at the end, and that's fine. Surprises are exciting when you're watching TV. But in House of the Dragon, a show where dragon riding is really, really central to what is unfolding and who has some sort of validity and claim, I really want to see how these characters come to find their dragons.

I think that's really important. Given that, maybe we're not going to see that. Maybe they're just going to skip through. And part of this is logistical, right? It is very expensive and time-consuming to, to show, you know, to create these dragons. The fact that they want to show us nine in this season alone is an embarrassment of riches for us. But, like, another question that comes up for the Battle of the Stepsones is, like, where is Rainies? Who's a dragon rider?

Who's dragon male? She is the most experienced dragon rider in the entire kingdom. Right. She is an experienced dragon rider. women fight, Targary and women fight in battle. Where is Rainey's? Where is Mellies? You know?

And is it, we can't, we don't have the budget for three dragons at this battle. Maybe that's true. But also, we had an email from a listener, Roxy. Who said it might be a minuscule question, but why do we think we didn't see Kuroxies during Damon's battle with a crab feeder? I kept expecting him to come to the defense of his quote-unquote dad. It was cool seeing Lainor's dragon, but I would have expected Daimons to be there for him, too.

Maybe it's because we got the impression of DeNaris of how protective the dragons are. So, like, the gambit is, right, that Damon is on a suicide mission, right? He has put himself in a possible situation because he is so ticked about this letter he gets from his brother. That he has put him, you know, and the showmaners made this very clear. The demon is ready to die to win this battle on his own terms, right? Would sooner die than let the Sarahs bail him out. Yeah. And so the gambit is, like, if I'm here, they'll come out because they know that correct.

can't be here because I'm here, right? And then we'll surprise them with our other dragon that I guess we haven't broken out yet in this battle, I suppose. But they have because they say that they've been strafing them with both dragons. So that's part of what was confusing to me. Okay. I mean, I think we're just not going to solve this episodes is what's true. But do you want to talk about, I mean, like, I want to hear from you on this

because I think what's important to take away from this, is some of this a little narratively messy? Yes. But I think what is important to underline is that just having a dragon does not necessarily mean you're going to win a conflict. So Mallory, like, what's the history of this? Yeah, I think that is exactly right, Joe. However, the stepstones played out, okay, what we take from it moving forward, what we've learned about Damon's character and important information and about Lenore's character and House Valerian and important information about what dragons do and do not mean in warfare. Now, we will not right now run through every single battle that has ever involved dragons.

Obviously, if you've watched Game of Thrones, you have seen what the Knight King did to Viserion. Not to mention what the Iron Fleet. No, we will not mention. Mention, spoken. We hear on this podcast. But in terms of the history for House Targaryen and what the characters who are who are living these events that we're watching on this show would be aware of. One thing that is definitely worth keeping in mind,

not only because of the geographic proximity of Dorn to the stepstones, but because of how crucial the history with Dorn is for House Targaryen. Dragons during Agon's conquest, Agan and his sister-wise, Viscanian naringes, they all had dragons, they all rode dragons, Balarian, Maraxes, Vagar, the Ang. They could not bring Dorn into the fold. We have a literal death of a dragon and a sister wife of Queen Reneas and Maraxis at Hellhold.

They actually took a dragon down, but more broadly than that, they evaded. They hid in the mountain passes. They retreated from view to take away the source of strength from House Targaryen. We see what you're doing across the realm. We simply will not let you do. that to us. So I think that that is true and important. Heading, for this battle in particular, I will say, it's definitely not that it's impossible to beat a foe that has dragons or to evade or out smart a foe that has dragons. This is where I

was just like so hung up on. Did it take them three years to come up with lure the crab feeder out of the cave? Or was that a more recent? Presumably didn't go to war right away. Well, it could only be Damon or, I guess, Lainor. I don't know. The logic, the logic has to be that they thought, because Damon was there, no dragon could possibly come, even though that contradicts what they're saying about we've been strafing them with Dragon Fire from both dragons. But Crabtfeeder keeps looking up in the air. Like, he's readying. He's waiting. He knows what they might try. Listen, Mallory, as we know from all the rich dialogue that we've gotten from the crab feeder, he's a very tactically savvy man. No, but the, I think that we don't know when this war started necessarily

in the show canon because it takes a while to muster the second sons and to remind ourselves that the army here is not a crown-sanctioned armies, right? So landless adventures and second sons. Not only, as you keep mentioning, are the knights that are associated with Kings Landing, the nights of summer, as Rheny, you know, points out, these are green men who aren't tested. That's not even who we have in this war. It's Damon and Corley's and House Valerite, like, Basil of House Valerian, but, like, a bunch of Randos is who Damon was able to muster for this. So that's part of it.

So, like, to take a year to muster those people, and then are they so bad at their job that this is how long this took? Right. Because Viseras has that retort to Thailand when he says, you know, it's been three years. It can wait three more days because he wants to focus on Agon's name day in the hunt. But that could apply to just the conflict at large, the declaration of intent as opposed to the actual warfare on the sand and in the caves there. That's it's definitely true. And I think that the inverse of a lot of what we're talking about of like, okay, well, we sort of need to better understand and respect the crab feeder as a tactician.

to value how he could beat Corlis and Damon. Two characters were really invested in in respect at this point. The flip side of that is it does really track with what we've seen about Damon so far that he rushes in. He rushes in head first. I mean, we see it play out quite literally at the end without thinking through, not only without thinking through the consequences of his actions, sometimes actively courting the consequence of his action. Like acting rashly is part of the appeasper. to him and it is so central to his character. So that part of it, things not just being neat and tidy, I really like, and I think is of a piece with our rogue prince's experience to date and what we should

expect for him. What did you think of inside of House Valerian, some of the dynamics that we saw playing out? Because Vamond, who has been switched from Corliss's nephew in Fire and Blood to his younger brother here in the show, is actively challenging Corliss and Damon's command and decision-making and saying if Kings Landing won't support Damon, why should any of us? The Targaryans, not the only ones who infight. Very good point. Okay, so I want to say a couple things. Number one, and we talked about this a little bit on Talk of the Thrones, but like,

we don't get it stated outright, but the dynamic seems very clear that Vaman is the younger brother. And this helps bolster Mallory's point from last week, which is that this idea that when Corliss says, we are second sons to Damon, he's speaking metaphorically for himself, which got a lot of emails from people who seemed couldn't like they thought that you, Mallory, I think they listened to House of R not Talk the Thrones and that's, that's

just what this ongoing conversation is going to be. But like Mallory really talked very eloquently about this idea of Second Suns being a sort of symbolic bonding, scrappy thing on Talk the Thrones last week. I think a lot of people were like, oh, you missed that, but no, Mallory doesn't miss a trick. So like, I just want to say, give you a laurels

for being right about that. And I like this. But again, I would love to know Vainment better before we go into battle here rather than just this one interaction. And then Lainor, again, I would have liked to have known him better. Seas Smoke, however, do you want to hear a little whatever little information I could gather about C-Smokes? So C-Smoke, who we meet here. We don't get to see like him not in action, but there's a great freeze frame that Palavar's put up on Twitter. That unalized the fact that C-Smok has like a little soul patch, a little like,

Whispy whisker beneath his mouth, which is fantastic. And I asked our pal Paula Fairfields for her insight. She does the sound design on the dragons. We talked about Krakis. We talked about Syracs. This is her take on C-Smoke. She wanted to underlie the fact that this is all just in her mind of what's going on with C-Smoke. She says, he's a big old stud, a gorgeous overbuffed warrior stallion.

What he doesn't have in brains, he makes up for him beauty, bronze. and fighting chops, his fire is said to be extra hot and spicy. May have a grinder profile unconfirmed. Also, well, I'll get into the other one later. But anyway, and also shout out to Paula, because Paula also did the stag, the really disturbing stag noises on this episode as well. So a lot of scary sounds coming from Paula. But that's, yeah, Houseful-Aryan is interesting and I'll be interested to see how that

dynamic plays out going forward. Sea Smoke. Top three dragon name for me. Ooh, what tops it right now? Do you want to say? I think my favorite dragon names across the canon probably are Seasmoke Dreamfire and Sunfire. Those are my three faves.

I love them. They're really good. Great stuff. Our Dreamfire, Damon, what else should we say about him? The response to the letter, can I say one thing about this letter? Of course. we're hard on our guy, Viseras Targaryen.

Rightfully so most of the time. And I do think it's really interesting that here he is not moved by Thailand Lannister's appeal. We hear Otto once again actively say you should not do this,

you can not do this. It would make the crown appear weak, he says, if he went and bailed out Damon and Corliss in a war that was not sanctioned by his reign. Alicent breaks through to him in active opposition to her father's point of view there.

So that is all fascinating to keep in mind in terms of the larger context across this episode of the Allison Fissaris relationship and Allison's in Otto's relationship.

In the letter, which we get during a voiceover during demons pensive rowing. A new ride. Yeah.

Deliver the victory that has thus far evaded us, he says. And I've got to say, That was really charitable and generous older brother stuff from Vassaris Targaryen because I don't know that Damon had earned the us there. Have I already asked you whether or not, like, are you a younger sister or older sister? Younger.

You're younger? Are you the youngest? Yes. I have an older sister and I have two older stepsisters. So I'm the youngest of the four of us. Okay. We are both younger sisters on this podcast. I do appreciate the charitable us, but I will say if I got a text for my sister that said,

know that is not my desire to see you fail in your cause. I wouldn't have beat Sir Allen with my helm, but I would have been pissed. I thought it was really interesting that Ryan Condal said in the, and Sipotchnik said this too in the behind the season episode that they considered this episode the death of childhood. Yeah. And that they consider that for both Reneera and Damon and Allison. And Allison, right? And so Damon's got a few years on those ladies.

so he's a little bit of arrest development. Exactly. But he has a full-blown tantrum here. Like, that's a very, very childish reaction. But this idea that this battle is going to be the making of him somehow, I think the, one of the phrase they use, like an anvil to forge the character. Yeah. Like a beautiful, beautiful phrase.

And I think, I do think Viseras phrased his letter very carefully, but he also said, you know, Reneer asked, did he make a call for help? And Viserra says he would sooner die. Smiling, smiling fondly. But he's like, you know, and so I kind of understand. Something I didn't realize until the third time I watched the episode

is that in the back half of the episode, the whole ending sequence of the step zones, Damon doesn't say a single thing. Like, you just reacts and beats poor messenger senseless and goes in fights, but he doesn't have a single line, which is wild to me. So shout out Matt Smith for his face. as Neil Miller likes to call it. And we should say that in the books,

like Vesaris does support this. Vesaris is supporting this battle from the beginning in the books. He's giving gold to this cause in the beginning. Also very happy that Damon is occupied. Yeah. Let him fight in the stepstones. Better there than not here.

And also something that is made clear in the books that may not be made clear here is that in the book, at least, both Corlis, who stormed out of the small council room at the end of the last week, episode and Damon skipped the royal wedding in the book, which is wild. But then again, Ryan Connell and the Miguel Sepachanik also skipped the royal wedding.

So that's where we are right now. Oh, God. Damon, what a character. It wants to be elevated and loved by Vassaris, but not rescued and diminished by him. What did you think of the white flag fake out? Are you, as a Damon Targaryan enthusiast, and I am one as well, are you fearing for your boy's soul here? He's in, I think the charitable read is he's in brawn. You don't fight with honor.

No, he did. Hey, you can outsmart your foe territory. The less charitable, more concerning read is like our guy is in rat cook, soul damned to hell for violating. I just care so. I just, this didn't even occur to me until you brought up. up on Talk the Thrones. I guess I care so little for the rules of battle since battle is such a stupid. I don't know. I'm just, I don't care. It's just not the same as guest rights. It's everything's on the table in war to you. Yeah, right? I don't know. What do you think? You think Damon is cursed because

he did a white flag. I don't, I don't think he's cursed, but I think it's, I think it is worth keeping in mind that he's a character who would do a thing like that gladly, whatever is necessary to reach his end and to win. And I think that more broadly than that I will run in to face death head on charge. First of all, Damon may not be one for thinking ahead, but he is one hell of a fighter. And it was really cool to see him in action and the way that in the actual field of play, field of battle, the things that he can do with his dagger, the things that he can do with Dark Sister,

he's got 4.340 yard dash speed on fucking sand. Like, this is the stuff that legends are made of. And he's ready to die. Sure. That fuels the way that he is acting and behaving, but he doesn't die. And so he leaves this, the stuff of legend.

Like, when you do a thing like that, and you make it to the other end, you are at the center of a myth that spreads around the realm. Like, this is an amazing moment from it. Is it actually at the end, despite how badly it was going for so long, exactly what he wanted it to be and what he hoped it would get and what the pitch that the appeal that Corliss made to him,

this is what is now happening for him in real time. Soaked in blood, as you noted on Talk the Thrones, that very clear visual parallel to Reneira. And another thing that we heard from the director of the episode, from Eutainis and the inside the episode was this idea that for all three of them, for Reneira Vassaris and Damon, they're all, he said, emerge out of episode three reborn with new perspective on who they are and what their purpose is. That's the quote. And while that may be true for all three of them, I think undeniably, there are way more clear and strong parallels between Damon

and Ramira specifically, the physical ones covered in blood, this active killing pursuit, their solitary pursuits, the way that they are separate and apart from so much of the affairs of the realm. And Viseras feels, even if he is reborn as well in this episode

and cleanses himself and confesses many a thing, he feels very much still as a point of contrast to the two of them and that they are united in this way. It's like Marina and David had like a bath, autism in blood, right? And Reborn and Vassaris still has his hands clean, but like does he?

Because what did he do to that? Yeah, exactly. All right. Crap Peter, before we leave the stepstones? Big question that a lot of people have is about the gray scale. Yes. And we don't yet, I think, know how to answer that question. I don't know.

I think, well, this is a wait and see. But, you know, are you, are, am I worried? Are you worried about Damon who held hands with the torso of someone with Grayscale? I was troubled to see Damon holding him by the hand and saturated in his blood. Yes, I was troubled by that. Like, I don't know if Grayscale is a blood-borne disease, but it's certainly like if you touch it, that's a no-no. Yeah, skin to skin contact, which is definitely taking place there. The Grayscale that Jora contracted in Game of Thrones appeared within literal minutes.

So if Demon Targaryen does not have Grey Scale next week, I think we can move on. That's my take at the moment. How'd you feel about the crab feeder dying off screen? Oh, we got this great email from Taylor that I think is so fascinating that I want to read. Taylor writes, do you believe it is intentional or coincidental that big moments from Damon continue to be excluded for the viewer? For example, the stealing of the dragon egg and the hacking, apparently no duel, of the crab feeder. I know these are completely different from the air for a day exclusion, but I'm curious, this will be a running theme of Damon for us to question if he actually does these things.

I think there's no doubt that, like, he stole the Dragon Aang, and I think there's no doubt that he hacked the crab feeder in half. But I love this idea that like, not only are we getting the yada yada of the time jumps, but maybe significantly with Damon, things are being excluded from our view. What do you think? Yeah, Damon is a agent of chaos. a character defined by an air of mystery. And he is very, he is a character who is, in I think, some ways in that respect, benefiting from the time not spent because it enhances that. It builds up this sense that there's something there that we're waiting to discover.

The flip side of that, of course, is that he's just such a fun character. And Matt Smith is such an incredible performer that we just miss him when we're not with him. We want to spend that time with him. But through three episodes, when so much of this is about setting up the dynamics and setting up the ambition for each of the characters. I think it's actually been fun that we have so many moments where we get to say, what's Damon thinking? What actually has he done here?

And to know that other characters are just like we viewers at home are wondering about that. Yes, definitively, he found the crab feeder and cut him into pieces with Dark Sister. That's a thing that happened. But more broadly, I think it's an astute observation that there are a lot of things that we are catching up on and trying to piece together after the fact. Damon. What a character. What do you think of the halfback? Should we save it for wigwatch?

But it's a fascinating hairstyle. I don't actually have Damon on my... Oh, no, I do. I do. Yeah, let's save it for wig watch. Oh, my God. I should expect so. If that didn't make the wigwatch cut this episode, I would have been stunned. We have a challenger, though. We'll talk about it. Intriguing. Okay. Stay around for episode awards. to make in the eight.

Okay. We shift from the stepstones back to Kings Landing, where we will be discussing. Many things, but first, scenes from a potential marriage. Can't fail to make a scenes from a marriage reference when we're potting together, Joe. It's just, it's always a joy whenever we can. It's an ongoing bit for us. Oh, boy. Reneira's many proposals and the many schemes that are tied up for many players across the realm who have some sort of agenda here.

Before we go through the suitors, because we're going to go through each of them one by one, let's just talk more broadly about the situation that is unfolding here. Proposals are flying in from every corner of the realm. I thought I would read a corresponding passage in fire and blood that establishes what is unfolding there. Quote, the question of selecting a suitable consort for Rainira had been a concern to King Viseras and his counsel. Great lords and dashing nights fluttered around her like moths around a flame, vying for her favor. When Renera visited the Trident in 112, the sons of Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood fought a duel over her. and a younger son of House Frey made so bold as to ask openly for her hand. Full fray, he was called thereafter.

Iconic, even in the history books. The phrase are fucking it up and embarrassing themselves. The passage continues, in the West, Sir Jason Lannister and his twins, Sir Thailand, thied for her during a feast at Casterly Rock. The sons of Lord Tully of River Run, Lord Tyrell of High Garden, Lord Oakhard of Old Oak, and Lord Tarley of Horn Hill, paid court to the princess, as did Lionel Strong's eldest son, Sir Harwin Strong.

Breakbones, as he was called, was heir to Heron Hall and said to be the strongest man in the seven kingdoms. The Ceres even talked of Wedding Renier to the Prince of Dorn as a way of bringing the Dornish into the realm. The passage continues from there with some stuff that we won't get into

in this part of the pod. But a lot of familiar names, a lot of familiar houses there. Everybody is making their pitch. Yeah. What do you think Rainier would have said to that last proposal? Do you think she would have been, gods, he's dawnish.

Donish. Oh, absolutely. The other, the other, I love that you read that. That made me really happy. The other apropos passage, of course, for this time is something we read on Talk the Thrones, but I'll do it again. Vesaris is a man of peace, and during these years, Kings Landing, was an endless round of feast, balls and tourneys where mummers and singers heralded the birth of a new

Targaryen princeling. Allison proved to be as fertile as she was pretty. All right. So this like again yada yada yada Damon fought the Battle of Stepstones and yada yada yada yada Vassaris had a lot of

Feastballs and tourneys is what we're working with here as we build this episode and so the hunt comes out of all of that and I think that's a really brilliant move on Ryan Condal's part. Agreed. All right.

They end up father and daughter Vassaris and Reneera after Jason Lannister makes his move, which I simply cannot wait to discuss with you, having a very public argument because Reneira charges in and challenges her father and expresses that she does not want to marry and does not appreciate what is unfolding. Now, the marriage plots and the succession plots are all tied up into each other. We'll talk more about the succession dynamics in our next. section. One of the things, just in terms of like the set, the setting for this conversation

that I really loved about this is there's this initial response when you're watching this of embarrassment that they're doing this in front of so many people. But in terms of the fire and blood of it all, I loved this because this is exactly the kind of moment where multiple people are witnessing something and leaving it with their own interpretation. And then who were they sharing that story with? Who are they whispering it to? Where does they are recounting make it? And that's how you end up with the text like fire and blood. And I think that like one of the things I've really loved about the show so far is that even though it is as as stated multiple times, intended to be the definitive objective version of events, we still see all of the ways that

we could have gotten the unreliable version of events and the competing unreliable versions. I would encourage everybody to read Riley McAtee's piece on the ringer.com. What a great website today on Tuesday where he runs through a lot of different things in depth about the episode, but he has a theory, Joe, that Samwell, the minstrel, is maybe the show's stand-in

for mushroom. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Mushroom, one of our most enjoyable narrators and Firewoods. Certainly our most salacious. I want to shout out something really quickly. We give Otto a lot of shit for a lot, deservedly so.

But when Viseris is going hard on his daughter in the middle of a tent and Otto cuts him off and is like, Sir, development in the hunt. I mean, good job. Good job, Otto for once. Absolutely. Absolutely. Got to manage that image. Something we should talk about.

Yeah, put a glove on those missing fingers. Can't tell them about your backstores your missing fingers, exactly, and can't let them see you arguing with your daughter about private affairs. It's wrong with you. Something that we should note is that, you know, we've also given Viseras a lot of shit for not having the hard conversations. He's having the hard conversations with Renier and this episode, just better done later in the episode when he does it in the small council chambers versus in the middle of a tent.

But he is having these, finally, at last, having some of these hard conversations with her, you know. Absolutely. And he really goes out of his way, not calmly, but firmly and clearly to say, I have been trying to talk to you about this for months. and you won't engage with me. Now, because it's Viseris, I'm always like,

what does that trying look like? Are you steering into that storm or are you waiting? It's coming, etc. But he at least, he at least says that he has been trying to reach her. Though even then,

it was really interesting to learn later when Alicent visits Viceris. He's just sipping his hangover, Cure, sitting there with his missing fingers exposed. Gloves off for Allison's. Indeed.

She knew not just about the marriage plots, but specifically about Jason Lannister. And that's the kind of thing with Vassaris where it's like, okay, you're saying that you tried to talk to her about this. But did you actually say today in the Kingswood, at the camp before the hunt, you will be meeting properly, Jason Lannister, a man I would like you to wed? Like she's ultimately blindsided with his honeyed wine and tourism picture of the views from Castorlie Rock. I will say, like, I don't want to give Vissaris more credit than he's due at all. But there is a moment where he like kind of looks at Jason Linister before Jason approaches Renair where it's just sort of like, I'm not sure this is a great idea. You know what I mean? And like, he still doesn't say anything to Reneera.

Should call her over and be like, wait, quick chat. Doesn't call Jason off. But at least he's like, this, maybe not. I want to talk about Rainer's isolation rate. You talk about her. You mentioned Samwell. She's under the tree. That's where Allison finds her.

And Vassar says later, like, you've been much alone. And I think it's really interesting to think about this because you think about what Maister Amon says. He says, a Targaryen alone in the world. world is a terrible thing, a tremendous line. And then you think about all that isolation that DeNaris is feeling in the final season of Game of Thrones. Our pal Kim Renfer was making this fine point that in the episode, The Bell's, what a great

episode of Game of Thrones, she says to John, far more people in Westrose love you than love me. I don't have love here. I only have fear. You know what I mean? And that just, when she says in the character, right, no one's here for me. Like, that's just really strong echoes of DeNaris. you know, who's here to pay attention to me.

Chris and Cole, that's too, but don't worry about it. It's fine, you know? No one's here for me. It was utterly heart-wrenching. Yeah. Genuinely, really, really sad. And I think overall, there were a lot of really sad anguish-inducing moments across the episode, certainly for Renier also for Vassaris.

And one of the things that I loved about the episode overall is that there's a lot of, she is expressing a lot of active rage about the marriage plot. and scheming in the way that she is being used to further some sort of political goal and end. But her loneliness is apparent across the episode, even independent from those proposals. This is a broader, just fact of her life right now. And when you see her in the king's wood and she says the king has much to celebrate, he does not need me. By the way, this is a side note, but I thought of you because when she says,

I've decided to remain here and read instead. I was like, yeah, this is real house of our energy. Thank you for the invitation. No, I will not be attending this weekend. I will be staying home to read instead. A hundred percent. If it's not that it's me eating biscuits with the ladies and the hunt, those are my two modes. Oh, my God.

Incredible. Absolutely. The carriage ride, I mean, you hit on the saddest line, but I was so struck by how she doesn't exit. She is sitting there alone inside as everybody is toasting and cheering baby Agon. And Viseris's new family, that was just so sad.

I also thought that on the carriage ride and we'll circle back to this idea later, but I was struck by that real awkward silence that hung in the air after Allison talked about how easy Agan's birth was and how that would presumably be leading Reneira and even Vesaris as well to think back to Emma.

I do want to say, though, I think Allison is 100% lying there because we get a shot of the nursemaid's face that is very much like, and it reminds me of when we get when we're on the bridge at Dragonstone and Otto says like, outa says to Damon in last week's episode, you know, the king would not, you know, lower himself to be here. And then we get a shot of Harold Westerling's face, which is very much clearly registering. that's alive. As Sarah's wanted to come, you're lying right now at Ohio Tower.

So I feel like we got this shot of this nursemaid's face that was very much like, I don't think it was an easy birth. But this is like, Allison looks miserably uncomfortable in her pregnancy in this episode. She's constantly rubbing her enormously

like pregnant belly. And I think it's just part of her whole don't complain, you know, this is my role and I'm going to play it sort of thing. And also it's better for Rainier to not be afraid. of childbirth, so I'm going to lie and say my childbirth was easy when it wasn't, you know? Interesting. Yeah, I definitely thought that her discomfort was overt in the present moment,

but also thought that she was being sincere about Agon's birth and that it would be one more way for Reneira in her mind to think about Alicent in contrast to her mother's, this person who has moved into that role and replaced her mother in Viseria. life. But it is definitely open to interpretation, which is, which is interesting. I thought just more broadly, too, of like, Viseris saying on the, the stroll with Lena in episode two, I imagine even dragons get lonely. And strength comes up a lot in this episode, as we'll discuss more as we go today. But I think that the show through three episodes is doing a really, really, really excellent job of maintaining multiple. lines of emphasis for the central characters at once. And in fact, reinforcing that not only are these realities not mutually exclusive, they are often inextricable from each other. The fact that you are made to feel like you have to project this sense of strength

or other people come for you, they think you're vulnerable, they think you're ready to be exploited and bent to their will in some way. This loneliness at the heart of these people's lives, and it just enhances the tragedy then when you have a rupture between, say, characters like Alicent or Reneira, or when characters like Vassaris and Reneira, who had finally it seemed like broken through a bit near the end of episode two before we realized that Fasaris didn't say the one key thing, by the way, the really important part. Yeah.

Are back to not being able to communicate with each other at all. And I think that idea of loneliness really does, it's not, as you say, it's not just Reneer by herself with Bard on repeat under the godswood tree, right? It's like if Alicent can't even, let's say my interpretation is correct and she she's lying about how difficult her birth is, to not even be able to be honest with either your husband or your once best friend about this really traumatic thing you went through. That's lonely. When we see Alice, it's surrounded by all these ladies, that looked extremely lonely to me as well. She's listening. She's paying attention. She's in her element. She's playing the game. She's doing her

job. But she doesn't have her best friend. And I found her to seem very isolated in this episode, despite being constantly surrounding. You can be so lonely surrounded by people. That's easy to happen. Absolutely. Yeah. It's a very, very poignant observation and emphasis and key area of interest for this show and this character set.

And you can feel it sometimes too in this episode when Vassaris and Renera are having these arguments, including this big blow up in the tent, because we hear him say, even I do not exist above tradition and duty, Reneera. and that, of course, ports us back to his frame of mind in episode two where we know how heavily this was weighing on him that all of these people, his advisors, his counselors, people he maybe at one point thought were his friends, are coming to him and saying, this is the thing that you must do, not because it's what you want, not because you're ready for it, but because it is what your station and what duty demands. Now, you can pound that for Renira, exponentially.

by the sense of inferiority she felt her entire life, knowing that her father was just waiting for a boy, waiting for a son. We'll get back to this idea when we talk about the different succession plots in a little bit, but this broader sense of the role of a woman in society and the fact that she has now been made to feel like the whole entire realm, in essence, is ready to replace her. Nobody cares about her.

Nobody cares what she wants. And her own father in front of everyone is screaming at her that this is what duty demands and requires. We hear him say elsewhere that he wants her to be happy, that he wants her to be content. But he also requires, requires her to fulfill this obligation for her line, as he'll implore her, which was one of the more interesting moments to break down, but also for House Targary. for his ability to stick with her as air here. And I thought it was interesting that like even before this real boiling point of this fight, if you go back to the carriage, he's kind of tipping his hand, right?

He's saying and he's giving Agon sips from his goblet that based on how the rest of the episode goes, I have to assume is full of wine. Troubling, parenting from Pizaris, the first Targaryen. But he's saying to her, you'll be with your own child. sooner than late and make me a proud grandsire. And you're wondering then because of the passage of time, how many moments Renera has found herself on the receiving end of a line like that when so much of the pain that she has experienced and so much of what she staunchly held and believed to be true even before her mother's death was a rejection, rebelling against that royal womb's idea, right?

This like Aria Stark-esque, that's not me. I don't simply want to be defined by. the typical role of a woman in society. I don't want you to just marry me off to further your political alliances. To your point about, like, Alison, reminding her of what happened with Emma, we got this email from Christy who said, I'm surprised no one in her world

would see another secondary reason for her reluctance. Marriage and childbirth killed her mother, something she alluded to in the funeral scenes in episode one. It would only make sense that one of the reasons Reneer is reluctant to marry is that it could be a literal death sentence for her. So, you know, just another thing to add into the mix of, like, she's not just an Aria Stark-esque-spirited child,

but she literally, like, lost her mother in this horrific way. And her mother said shortly before she died, you know, this is our battlefield. You know what I mean? Like, she's like, no, thank you. No, thank you very much. Because he mean to replace me with Alison Taita, son, the boy you always want to.

You have them in hand now. You have no further use for me. You might as well peddle me for what you can. A mountain stronghold or a fleet of ships. Devastating. Another incredible performance from Millie Alcock in this episode. This made me think a little bit of Circe. And the I Am Queen Regent, not some broodmare challenge that she issues to Taiwan in Game

of Thrones. And there are a lot of different moments in this episode where I found myself thinking of Circe. One of my favorite scenes from season one of Game of Thrones is that just exceptional conversation between Robert and Circe, where they talk about how their marriage is what held the thing holding the realm together. And then they both, they cackle because like the absurdity of it is so heightened and they're able to recognize it. And then you get that really like haunting how long can hate hold a thing together line. Speaking, can I just, one, quick detour on that. Speaking of adaptation, something I love about that scene, and I've mentioned it in other scenes before, is that that was one of those scenes that Wys and Benignoff wrote to pat out the runtime on an episode that felt that was coming in too short. And it's an amazing scene. It's an incredible scene, but it is not from the book. And so, like, when you talk about, like, how an adaptation has to be diehard, faithful or not, it just has to be faithful to the spirit of the text or not. And they really nail later times I have quibbles with their sense of adaptation.

but not seen, and in many of those season one scenes that they added for to pat out the runtime of an episode, absolutely crushed it, you know? Agreed. I agree. Completely. So Reneer has lived her entire life feeling like she wasn't enough. Remember that episode one moment at her own mother and brother's funeral where she says to Damon, I wonder if in those few hours my brother lived, my father finally found happiness.

Then at last she's chosen. Then she's still kept at a distance, dismissed from the same. small council meetings, her insights not taken seriously or heated, scalded when she actually does act, then immediately out of favor for the bulk of the realm as soon as a sun comes along. And in some ways, it feels like that's a worse thing than just never having been chosen at all because it does heighten for her, her belief in her fear, that she was chosen because there wasn't another option, not because Viseras really believed in her. And we will get to the whole Vesaris side of that and everything that he is grappling with later in the episode. But this is,

this is the state of Reneira's mind and heart throughout this episode. And it is really, it is really heartbreaking. Should we talk about the potential suitors? Let's do it. Jason Lannister. We have to start with him. Just amazing to see Sir Hugh of the Vale back. It's, Jason fucking Lannister Incredible stuff Thailand master of ships Maybe let's just mention really quickly For folks who don't remember

Sir Hugh of the Vale Very tiny tiny part In season one of Game with Friends So let's not mention Sir Hugh of the Vale As if he was like something casual watchers Should remember But he's a very imperious Inseparable

Night that we meet At the tourney in season one Spear through the throat How could you forget the gurgle of the blood? I'll carry it with me forever. My goodness. So we have now these Lannister twins, Thailand, who has replaced Corliss on Viserich's Small Council as the new master of ships,

Jason, who is the lord of Casterly Rock and the warden of the West. And I thought it was worth just quickly zipping through some of the history between House Lannister and House Targaryen because you are watching this episode and it's just fun to see the Lannister lion. It's fun to have those golden locks back in our story. But it's definitely worth noting that this is a new thing for House Lannister, not to be Wwardens of the West. That's established history as I'll run through here. But to have a seat on the council, this is a breakthrough for the relations between these two houses. The Lannisters were kings of the West until Agon's conquest, until the Targaryian conquest. Defeated in the field of fire, something that you all

have heard us chat about on the podcast before because it's this really seminal battle and moment. That's when Lauren, the last King of the Rock, surrendered to Agon, brought the West into the fold. They were not close partners with House Targaryen for the first century of Targaryen rule in Westeros. They were definitely not in, even though they were wardens of the West. And even though Castorly Rock is a rich, and powerful seat. They were not in that Valerian high tower

Barathean kind of tier of targ ties. Lyman and Lannister Tier of targ ties, Mallethe's.

It's a dark tongue twister. Lyman Lannister offered Egon the Uncrowned and Raina you heard to speak

about Raina last week Safe Harbor at the rock during Magar the Crules attacks. then sort of rode the fence in this kind of fascinating way. We don't have time to go through today,

but it was very emblematic of Lannister politics and tactics at that time. Building toward Jeharis rejecting the idea that Lyman would have a seat on his council because he just flat out didn't trust him, didn't trust the Lannisters, thought that they were strivers, thought it was better and safer to keep them at a distance. And Tymond Lannister attended the great council, favored Vassaris.

that's a helpful thing then as you're working to build closer ties. Also, Joe, you sketched out in prior episodes how the Valerians had moved above the Lannisters, the high towers on the richness scale. Well, Valerians bounced. So you need allies with coin and reach. Need that money. Here we are. Thailand, the Lannisters on the council at last. Jason. Good job. Good job, Lyons. Jason making his Tinder profile in real time here the honeyed wine going over based on Reneer's face as poorly as the smarm

I've got to say Lord Jason Lannister I gathered that from all the lions one of my favorite exchanges of the season so far I comment this is very good Chris and I had this interpretation

that I'm not sure whether or not you agreed with us this idea that the Lannisters are hosting this hunt. Do you, do you, like, how do you feel about it today, Tuesday? I've interpreted it as just the royal hunt and a royal affair and that the Lannisters and Jason in particular have inserted themselves to an extent that is not necessarily welcomed or warranted.

Okay. I'm still going with their hosting, and here's why. Or a reason why. Like, we get, we get this line about, you know, Lord Jason's waiting for us. you know, basically, But wasn't that just about the proposal? Because he knows he's going to make his marriage pitch there? Absolutely could be.

But also, if the Lannisters are hosting this, I like the idea that Allison shows up in Lannister red. It's not even Targaryen red. It's the dusky red of the Lannisters. And Allison is so canny with her colors and her costumes. So she's showing up here in Lannister Red. Runeer is also wearing Lannister Red. So I just kind of like this idea that it's like, again,

The lanocers to curry favor are like, oh, my lord, let us throw the royal hunt for, you know, Prince Aegon's name day. We would love to do that. Let us provide the boar and provide the chicken pluckers and the latrine diggers and all that sort of thing. I just really like that idea. He's also eager to provide a dragon pit. And that's part of his pitch. To house dragons, of course. I'd do anything for my queen or...

Lady wife. This is a real, like, instant sirens red flag move from him. Because that was the other thing about the Lannister history is that they, like, coveted when they were housing Rana. They coveted dragon eggs from Dreamfire. So I think we should be on guard with the Lannisters here when they're talking about dragon bits. I mean, and we should point out, like, you know, Lainor Valerian's a really good example. If Jason Lannister were to get his way in a Mary Reneura, their child could be. with the last name, Lannister, could be a dragon rider, you know?

So. And what strength would that give them? Boy, absolutely. Speaking of strength, right? So you want to talk about Jason's conversation with Vassaris here. What do you want to say about that before I offer up one of my favorite line reads in the history of ever? Oh, my God. I'm so excited.

Oh, I can't wait to hear which one it is. So clearly Vassaris before this exchange and before Reneira confronts him is on board. He says that Jason Lannister would be a splendid match. But then he chats with Jason Lannister, who manages to fuck this up in astoundingly rapid fashion in real time, presents him with the weapon that he hopes will slay the white heart, the portent for Agon's name day. And he makes this appeal about how House Lannister can provide House Targaryen with

strength. To which Viseris replies, visibly and instantly insulted by this, do you think that House Targaryen wants for strength? And Jason Lannister, cocky asshole, says, totally unfazed, if someone offer you more dragons, would you not take them? To which Vassaris replies, do you have dragons to offer? Now, this was incredible. That's the line. And it's the way that Patty says it with like a pissed off smile on his face. Do you have dragons to offer? Fuck you. It's so good. It's like you can talk all you want about how high castorly rock stands. You can't reach the height of our dragons and stop pretending that you can. This was so great. And I loved assessing in this moment and across the episode how Vassaris deals with and confronts the idea of strength. Because here's a thing.

if we're taking away all of our feelings about the actual players, the specific people, Jason Lannister's making a good point, a very sound case for how this alliance would benefit the crown. It's a point, absent the specifics of Jason Lannister and Dragons, that Vassaris himself has made across the episodes. He talked last week about how their line was vulnerable. They needed to shore it up. Now, granted, three years have passed since then. He has a new marriage, a new son, et cetera.

But this is something that is always on his mind. When he's chatting with Renira, at the end of the episode, he is actively counseling her in this fashion. Strengthen your own claim. Sure up your succession. He actually recognizes and really values how important it is to constantly be thinking about strength, which is in some ways for his character, frankly, progress.

Because one of the things at the beginning of the last episode was how many characters we're constantly saying, look at all these openings you're leaving. Look at how vulnerable you're making yourself in your house to anybody who would choose to act. What Jason Lanester has not factored in here is that these are private concerns for the king. These are things that he could discuss with his daughter and the safety of the small council chambers or his bed chambers. This is not something that you would dare to say to your king, let alone an earshot of a tentful of members of the court doing.

Where is his hand? Jason Lancaster needs a hand to offer him some advice to whisper in his ear. The last thing that I want to say about Jason Lannister in terms of his suitability as a match is the look on his face when Rainira returns to camp bloodied from slaying the boar. It's active revulsion.

And we can contrast that. Yeah, if he had had a handkerchief, he would have put it to his nose. And if the mic had been close enough, we probably would have heard him say, Damn me. He's horrified. They are clearly not meant to be. And we can contrast that with the look of absolute hunger and arousal on Harwin Strong's face,

which that whole sequence, everybody watching, Kristen and Redera returned was so great. So funny. We're going to get to Harwin Strong for sure. Any other thoughts on Jason Lannister as a suitor before we move on to Baby on Darker? I want to shout out a couple people just really quick. Cira Lannister, the mother of Jason and Thailand Lannister, is introduced in this episode, Lady Lannister.

We meet her. This is a show invention, but, like, you know, I think it's interesting to pay attention to the ladies here. Yeah. Lady Red wine also making quite a scene. Lady Red wine and her punk. So, yeah. You know, Renira had previously said that she never jested about cake, but she jested about

cake with Lady Red wine. And I feel like we need to make that. Wow. Wow. Call her all the way out on the table here. Okay. Very pro-Ranira and on her side, but she jested about cake. So bachelor number two, a literal baby.

Tell me about it, Mallory. We simply must play this entire conversation in full. Carlos. There is another choice beyond Castorri Rock. One perhaps you might be more comfortable with one closer to home. Who do you have in mind? Prince Egon. The boy just turned two, Otto.

Yes. But it would cease the endless proposals for a new as harm. Betrothed them. I came here to Harvard. Not to be suffocated by all this fucking polity king. Oh my God. Joanna. Otto, what a move.

This is one of my favorite scenes in Game of Thrones history. This is so funny. The cut to AGON crying. The minute of silence is Fisaris is processing this in real time. Patty's cackle, like a shock. And the wind on Otto, I'll just, yes. Yes. Whoa.

I was in tears laughing. In tears. This is a dumb move from Otto, right? Who is generally pretty smart. And this is a dumb move. And as you brought up on Talk the Thrones, I think we can attribute that a lot to the fact that he's getting pressed by his older brother. Lord Hightower is pressing on him and he's, and he presses him in a way that Otto makes a move that he's too smart to make, honestly. Like, because he could maybe make the case for the baby, but not like this.

You know what I mean? Like, Targary and siblings wedding each other not unheard of. Like, this is an easy case for him to make, but not in this moment. And not like five goblets of wine in to Vassaris's day drink tear here. Exactly. I also wanted to mention this idea. You brought this up on talk to the front of this idea of, like, Lord Hightower calling Agon second of his name and how, like, rude that is when they get out of the cart, calling him second by his name. You would only say that about the next king.

And he hasn't been named king. Reneira, who's any shot. She is the air, et cetera. But also the conversation around the decision to name him Agon at all, Agon is a kingly name. So do you feel like Otto made the name? the case that he should be named Agon? That feels like an auto idea that he maybe used Alicent to like insepted into Vassaris or something like that.

Like it's a real choice to name your son, Agon. Sure it is. Well, you know, Baylon was for Vassaris's father. And what's next on the list for a guy who spends all his time thinking about prophecies and portents? I'm named for a king. A son born. wearing the Conqueror's crown.

It's, this feels like something from Vassaris himself, but I love the read that Otto would have nudged it. I want to chat more about Hobart Hightower and the dynamics

across the Hobart Otto Alicent chain of events there when we get to the succession dynamics in a bit because I think it is fascinating. I'm really glad you mentioned it here because it does feel like Otto acted more hastily

than we're accustomed to seeing. And it's, it's notable that Vesaris challenges him really actively because we've talked across the prior episodes about how Vassaris is typically does what Otto advises and does what he says. So this is a departure. It's really important to observe when Viseras can take advice and when he can't, right? And when someone out and out tells him to do something, he normally will not do it.

And he says the same thing of his daughter. He's like, if I had told her not to marry the Lannister, she would have done it, right? Like this is a, this is a trait that Vassaris and Reneer have in common. And so I think it's really important, like, if I can, if I, if you'll permit me to skip to the next suitor, which is. Yeah, let's do it. And when Linault comes with his pitch, he says, do you wish to hear my opinion on the matter? Not this is what you should do. And, you know, Vesaris is pissy and suspicious and drunk.

So, like, he has a bad reaction to it. But still, Lionel is approaching him carefully and from that position. Similar, and we'll talk about the way that Alicent approaches him later, but everyone who comes up and says, you should, that has never worked with Vassaris, you should. Not from Damon, not from anyone. So I think that's a real, like, for all the, for all, for all the quibbles I will have about time jumps, I think their characterization consistency is so strong. Absolutely.

with Allison, with Rainira, with Damon, with Vassaris. And that's what makes it feel coherent to me, even as we try to like grapple, grab with the progression of the plot, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And as you said, he bristles initially even to that gentler and more thoughtful approach from Lionel Strong because he assumes that he's going to suggest his son, Harwin Breakbone Strong. And the way he said, strong is, it's just, again, just incredible.

work from Patty across the entire episode. And the response, like the look on his face, the way he walks down from his campsite tent mini dragon thrown down over to Lionel. And he looks almost angry for a second and then pats him on the chest with what seemed to be real gratitude and appreciation for the fact that somebody for once was not at least nakedly working through personal, for personal greed and gain and seem to be. thinking about Viseris himself or the larger state of his kingdom and his reign and what a rarity that really is for him right now because the pitch that Lionel makes is for Lainor, Valerian,

Raineese and the sea snake's son. And he says some years ago, I counseled you to take his sister to wife. My reasoning remains the same. He runs through him. Pure Valerian descent. Shares blood with the Targs. His cousin Renees is Lenore's mom. way to bridge this gap between the houses. Brilliant. It's a strong case. Brilliant advice. It's a strong case.

He's made some mistakes before, really wanted to preserve the patriarchy in episode one and was very ready for Vassaris to marry a 12 year old in episode two. But listen, he's showing here that everyone, everyone in this world of moral great characters can win us over in time. even though he was not there to suggest his son Harwin Strong, Joe, I want to use Vesteris's initial retort there as an excuse to quickly talk about the Strong Brothers entering our story. This is, to be clear, Laris is not a candidate for marriage here, but it's just a delight

to see Laris and Breakbones. I was, I shrieked with glee when they appeared on the screen and you are a huge, a huge fan of the Strong Boys as well. How did you feel to see them? I'm, I love Laris Strong. I'm very excited. I thought he was pitch perfect in this episode. But I do want to, like, for the Chris Ryan's of the world, like, Chris's dragon face blindness we might make fun of.

But I think he has a point where if you're not Mallorub and Joanna Robinson or someone who listens to five different podcasts or reads the book, Harwin Strong is not going to register for you. He doesn't even have a single line. He just has that, like, as you mentioned, look of hunger. Yeah. Who's the guy in the man gone making out of Renera? Tell me more. Holding down the stag, you know, like all that sort of stuff. And then Laris, you know, like, for me, this is a huge scene for Laris, but he has, like, literally one line and, like, nibbles a cookie.

Libbles a shit out of that cookie, you know. And that's, so, like, needs the cookie to soak up the tea that everyone's spill and Joe. I mean, love that. Love that for him. But, like, I would love a little bit more underlining of who the strong boys are for the more casual viewers, you know. That's why we're here. That's why we're here. Things are keeping us employed HBO.

We appreciate you. You mentioned CR guy, Chris Ryan. And so because this was something that was on his mind and we should chat about it for a second in case anyone else is wondering. Chris on Talk the Throneous asked us about Kristen Cole said he was picking up on some vibes by the campfire and weren't we all and wanted to know if Kristen Cole could potentially be a suitor for Rainier. Now, Joe, will you explain to our beloved listeners why that cannot be? Oh, yeah. When you take a vow to be part of the King's Guard, you're not allowed to marry or have children. So this is a big – you'll remember in Game of Thrones, Taiwan was really pissed that Jamie did this because it effectively ended their line because he doesn't consideritarianism.

And Tywin threatened to put Loris in Showland in the Kings Guard so that he would no longer be heir to High Garden. So it's interesting. So Kristen Cole, as he mentions, is also very low-born as compared to Renier. So that's another, like, he would never be in contention even if he weren't in the Kingsguard, we should say. Right. But there's a couple, like, moments of intimacy that I really like here. First of all, Kristen is kind of real with her.

Like, he reminds her of her privilege. She's complaining and he's like, many. Anyone would switch roles with you, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then also, big move, actually, he takes his armor off by the fire. Shocking. Can you imagine Sir Harold Westerling taking his armor off by.

the fire with the princess. If you told me that we got armor off by the fire and a night full of moans in the Kingswood and no sex occurred, I wouldn't have believed you. My goodness. It's just oddly intimate. And I like I like this, this like strain on Kristen because like when we first see him in this episode, it's at that like the pre-hunt banquet when Vassaris is slapping food on this plate and he's looking for Riner.

And Kristen looks so uncomfortable because he's like, I'm going to be fired if I don't have the right answer to the, you know. he's like, I don't know. And he looks like, oh, shit, I'm fucking up at my job. And so when he's like, I, you know, can we please go back to the camp? I'm going to get fired, Rainira, if we don't go back, you know. And I think that that's interesting dynamic between them. And then also, I mean, not just him saving her from the boar, but also as her, the way

I think Brian Condal described as boiling over with rage and she takes out all of her frustrations on this boar stabbing it. That's an oddly intimate, again, experience to have. with another person of like just letting loose all your rage and frustration and going to town on Audubour, you know? And we'll get to the White Heart later in a ensuing part of our chat, but he witnesses something incredibly intimate and significant there. I also was struck by the fact that he made the little joke about, you know, do you want

me to kill him about Jason Lanister? Like, that just really spoke to how that passage of time had forged a real bond between them where they could just be like casual and have their guard down with each other like that. And she asks him, you know, do you think that the realm will accept me? Like she's really showing a lot of herself to him there. You know, you noted that because of his station, it would not be in the cards. That makes me want to move to the one that pleases you line from Viseras. But I would be remiss if before we moved on, I did not ask you what you thought Kristen

Cole's number was because he says, I had an adventure. youth when my father served a Black Haven to be sure. How many people is Kristen Cole fucked? This was an iconic. Yeah, I had a ton of sex when I was young moment. I don't feel like I have all the data. Excellently done. Great stuff, girls. Our Lord and Sieve-Vuilman's on vacation. So Carlos is on the Dear Me button today. Excellently done, Carlos. Experately deployed right there. Beautiful. I need to, I feel like I need to know how old. Like, was Kristen like 18 when he was in the church? Like, how old? old is he when we first saw him in the first episode? Like, how much time did he? How much, like, of his youth? That being said, like, 20, at least. 20 at least. What do you say? That feels too high for you? That feels too well. That's what I'm saying. I don't know how old

he is. What do you say? Oh, I mean, I just, I don't know. This was quite a boast. I am really eager for our Kristen Cole prequel now. What, what do you, you have to put it down a number? I'm going 50. I was going to say 75, but I don't know. He doesn't strike me as quite that much of a fuck boy. So, all right. Please do it. Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com if you have a number for Kristen Cole.

Anything's possible. All right. One that pleases you. So you've chatted already. Indeed. God, be good. Oh, my God. we have chatted already today about Reneira challenging this.

That is the order of things idea that we heard Reneas speak about in episode two. And one of the most intense and incredible moments of the episode, there's this great conversation between Viseras and Reneira toward the end right before we moved to the stepstones in the small council chambers. and Vesaris is saying to her, I wish to see you contented, happy even. What is her reply? You think a man will do it?

You think a man will do it. The line rate there was amazing. And she is making an important point that that is not necessarily the path to happiness for her. That's not the life that she is seeking. But then the exchange that followed after that was equally painful. A family, Vassar says. And she replies,

I had a family. I mean, this was just agonizing. A Targary and a little in the world. It's a dangerous thing. Oh, my God. Boy, I loved when she called him out, Joe, because he's making this pitch, explaining why this is something that she must do.

And she says, if you heeded your own counsel, you would have married Lena Valerian, not Alicent. And to his credit, he's like, fair enough. You know, and I think. Stop some in his train. for a second there, but then he owns it.

Yeah, fair enough. And he's like, again, Patty Constantine is so incredible in this episode. The characterization of Viseris is so incredible and complex and nuanced in this episode. Like, is he a bad father? I don't know that I would put him in that bucket. Does he make terrible mistakes in every single thing that he does? Yes. But I genuinely think he does care about Reneer.

And I believe him here. I agree. When he says that you have to shore up your claim, you have to do that. I'm going to back you, but you have to do some things to shore up your claim. And like something that we have called him out in the past for is making her his heir and then not telling her what to do. No one is telling her what to do. But Sarah's kind of is in this episode. He's like, you've got to go on this hunt with me.

Like, you're my heir. and like we have to go in the dumb, boring golf game with the dumb stupid lords. That's part of ruling. It's part of politicking. It's what we do. You know what I mean? And you got to shore up your claim. It's part of what we do.

So, like, he's not completely leaving her hanging out to dry here. He's trying to talk to her. That's a great point. I'll be it clumsily and belatedly, you know. Yeah. I think it's a great point because it does feel like a meaningful step forward from the, you're young, you will learn. And there's no.

Because I will see. after that last week to let me walk you through this. And I think that you're, I really agree with your read that there's this like, okay, our guy is making a lot of mistakes, but his heart can still be in the right place, kind of melding here.

Because when he says, as to your match, make it yourself, search him out, find one that pleases you as I did. And this is on the heels, not only of them talking about Allison, but about Emma.

And that she made a man out of me idea and the love that he carried for her. When he says this to Reneira, it is on the heels of us witnessing the exchange between Vesaris and Alicent, where she kind of incepts him to say, I do believe that Reneer will marry, but she has to believe that it's her choice.

And so you watch a moment like this and you're thinking, how much of what Vesaris is doing here is because Alicin guided him toward this kind of more nimble you need to have Reneira take on a more. active role here by thinking that she can shape this.

But again, it's like, to me, they're not mutually exclusive. If Allison is helping to spark that progress, then that's a good thing, even if she is working for other reasons as well. And Viseras can want her to be happy. I'm not sure Allison's playing her father's game at this point. Like, we can discuss that, but I'm not sure that that's her agenda. But what I love about that is that she's like, Reneer needs to think it's her idea. just as she's like doing the exact same thing to Vassaris.

So he's like doing what Allison is doing to him. And that's, you know, just showing you how good Allison is at this game. Totally. But he can still also want Reneira to find happiness even if Allison's helped guide him toward that moment. So I do. That brings us nicely to the second of his damn sparker of myriad succession schemes aspect of this episode because the marriage plots are certainly not the only ones that are afoot. Prince Agon's second name day has brought all of the schemers out of the shadows into the Kingswood.

You tease some of the Hobart High Tower aspects of this already, Joe. Let's just chat more. We were just talking about Allison about the House High Tower of it all with Hobart and Otto and Allison. Because I thought that this glimpse, not only the brazen, hail, Hal, Agan the Conqueror Babe, second of his name moment that you already mentioned and that we talked about on Talk the Throat's, which I found legitimately shocking in its boldness. But the conversation between Hobart and Otto, where we see that just as Otto is attempting to use Allison as a pawn to further his end,

we see that Hobart, the head of House High Tower, is using Otto in the same way. Otto says, I don't know that his grace sees it so clearly, meaning that Agon will become heir. And Hobart says, and it lies with you to make him see it Lord Hand. which is almost identical to what Otto will later say to Allison, you must guide Vassaris toward reason. He'll never find it on his own. And so we're left now thinking how much of what we've seen from Otto to date is his own intention, that second son's idea that's recurred across the episode of needing to forge your own circumstances

and your own achievements, and how much of it is him acting on behalf of, of his older brother's orders to further House Hightower standing in position. 100% because we think about that scroll that he sent off in episode 1 to the reach, right? And like I said on the podcast in the book, that's a letter to his brother. And some people are like, oh, that's a spoiler. But I don't think so. It just like it just shows that he's in constant contact with his brother and that Hobart Hightower, like, auto being hand of the king is part of Hightower's jockeying for position and

influence, obviously, and that Hobart would see Otto as his way to long distance control the king. Right. Let's chat about the Otto Allison aspects of this episode. What an incredible Allison High Tower episode yet again. One of the, you mentioned Otto's misread in approaching Vassaris earlier. And more broadly in terms of him, I'm just like,

what is going on in your head this episode, my dude, when he said to Allison, when you bore the king of son, you ended 15 years of uncertainty and doubt. It's like there's never been more overt uncertainty and doubt than there is in this episode because everybody is trying to make their case

for the thing that they want. And I love that because it really speaks to his hubris and the fact that he feels like he has complete control of not only the circumstances, but the outcome. Like, we hear him voice doubt to his brother. But in a moment like this, he's like, I will be able to achieve this end because it has worked out for him so far. He wanted the marriage.

He got it, et cetera. So the absolute conviction in his voice when he is talking to his daughter. He's the firstborn son of the king to deny that he is heir to the throne is to assail the laws of gods and men. The road ahead is uncertain, but the end is clear. Egon will be king. You must guide Vassaris towards reason.

He'll never find it on his own. Love the creak of the chair in these soundbites. Yeah. When he is speaking about assailing the laws of gods and men and the impossibility of Renera's path to rule because she is a woman, it literally never occurs to him once that he is speaking to

and increasingly powerful and independent woman. I think what's also interesting, I think I was looking for this language to keep pulling on this thread of Allison's piety. I think this idea that he says to deny that he's heir to the throne is to assail the laws of gods and men. Like, Allison has been raised to be such an obedient, pious woman. And, like, is she finding her own power in this episode? Yes, I think so.

And I really want to talk about that. I want to talk about, like, not only does she say that she thinks Renier will be a good queen, Not only does she seem extremely loyal to Reneer, despite Reneer being like, I want nothing to do with you. We see her be loyal to Reneer in the tent when she's surrounded by the other women. She's like, David made his choice. Renero be a great queen, all this sort of stuff. Makes the direct appeal to Reneer. It doesn't have to be this way.

Right, exactly. But also I want to talk about, like, Allison's, the way in which Allison finds some of her power in this episode. This idea of, like, when we see her with these women, Lady Red Wine, Lady Lanister, which, is exactly what her father asks her about. How did my grandson go over? Like, Allison is out here collecting information, collecting Intel. But I think it's also important that, like, you mentioned earlier that Vassaris makes the move on the stepstones because of what Allison says.

We watch Allison the entire episode gathering Intel about the stepstones. We watch her clock what Thailand is saying at the beginning. She gives him that little, like, shake of head, no, don't press Vassaris. It's not the way to do it. we see her asking follow-up questions from like the ladies red wine and lannister about lady joanna shout out lady joanna and being abducted by the cram feeder this is this is a thing from the book and she says and what will happen to lady joanna so like alison is out here getting information and using it to build her case that she makes later and i just like this idea that

in contrast to Reneira, who is like, if I am not the treated the same as a male heir or the spotlight of the center of attention, I don't have any power. And Allison finding her power

in the position that she's put in. It reminds me a lot of like Marjorie Terrell and Lydia Elena, Terrell who like, Lidio Lennon makes her deals in the gardens. Like, that's like, find your spot. Find your power. And operate from there.

And that's what. what Allison is learning to do, which I think is really interesting. Yeah, I love that. You will serve the cheese when I tell you to, not in the course that you had previously determined. Damn it, Elena. What an icon. Miss her every day.

I think it's so interesting. And we do see Otto coaching her here the way that we would like more overtly, the way that we sort of wish Vassaris was coaching Rainier a little bit more overtly. And Otto's a creep in a lot of the things that he's doing. but he is at least taking a very hands-on move here, which I think is really interesting. Yeah. Did you feel like a shift at all in the nature of their exchange? Because what we had previously witnessed was Otto saying, do this thing. And Allison's saying, if it please you. And, you know, if you wish it. And in this episode, like, you did feel the passage of time, I think, in a really positive way for Allison's character.

Because Otto actually voices like, does this not please you? This is not what you would want. And Allison really pushes back against what he's saying. Would you have me raise my son to steal his sister's birthright? And almost in some ways, like, mocking the absolute myopia of his focus with the, you know, is this like not what you want for, you don't want your kid to be king? Oh, what mother? What mother wouldn't? There are so many other things that Allison is seeing on the board already.

There's a couple. I have a couple response to them and they come from some really interesting emails we got. First, we got this email from Patricia who is comparing Allison. approach here to Littlefinger actually. When Littlefinger says, Littlefinger says about losing a duel with

Ned Stark's brother. He says, you know what I learned losing that duel? I learned that I'll never win. Not that way. That's their game. Their rules. I'm not going to fight them. I'm going to fuck them. That's what I know. That's what I am. And only by admitting what we are, can we get what we want. So how do you, if you can't

win their game, play your own game, play your own rule, sort of thing. And then this really interesting email we got from listener, Michael, and I'm going to do part one here and part two in our book reader section about Allison. From Michael writes, a lot of fan discussion is tacitly or blatantly predicated on the question of what Allison wants. But I feel pretty strongly that it's almost impossible to answer that question. She might want queenship and power or Reneer's friendship or more, or the advancement of her house, or a Masaria like safety. but we don't know because Allison herself has never really had the chance to answer that question and certainly not do anything about it.

Lots of examples out there and shout out to Emily Carey's constant, carefully schooled poker face. But just this week, Allison is clearly physically uncomfortable with her pregnancy at many points in the episode in the carriage and when Otto is plotting her ear off. But you can't do anything about it. Allison goes on the hut because the maesters encouraged it and Viseras wanted her to. Allison listens to her father because she can't do otherwise. But all she can say when he asks if she wants her son to be king is what mother wouldn't? Tip to Lord H. That's not an answer.

So like, what does Allison want? And I don't know that we yet know. It's interesting because I got, I saw some pushback from people saying that they thought I was having too much of a 20, 22 read on Alicent, a little too much of like a fuck the patriarchy read on Alicent. But I think we're seeing an evolution of a character. And where she goes, we can discuss when she gets there. But I really think from right now, I agree we've seen an evolution. Like, I don't think her fingers are bitten to the bone anymore. Like, I think she's learning that she does have power as the queen.

She can command Samuel to leave the godswood. Like, she does have some queenly power. She can push back on her father a little. But she's not outright rebelling, at least at not this point. And also she can break through to the king, not only in the moments where her father is guiding her, but sometimes an active opposition to what he would want. And we already mentioned this with the stepstones. But like, that was really notable to me that when she sees the letter, she, the advice that she gives to Vassaris there, the way that she implores him to act is in direct opposition to what Otto had previously said he wanted. and she is able to break through to Vassaris,

which then empowers her moving forward to know that she can reach him in that way. And so whether she initially walked into that room because Otto asked her to go talk to the king about Agon or not, we need more time to uncover the full truth of that. But I think what we can say for sure is that she is a much subtler and more patient and methodical actor than her father or her uncle.

And that is to her immense credit. The fact that she does not mention Agon or the succession or broached it in that way, but instead engages him on Reneira and her marriage, leading to a conversation between Viseras and Reneira, where is everything like totally copacetic coming out of that? Of course not. We wouldn't have much of a television show ahead of us if it were going to be,

but they are able to speak and find a way forward after Viseras speaks to Allison. And again, her ability to reach him is in such stark contrast to what we see across the episode where he is actively challenging a character like Jason Lannister, say, by saying to him, I did not decide to name Reneira Meyer on a whim. All the Lords of the Kingdom would do well to remember that.

And expressing to Allison's how he feels like he is forever doomed to anger one person in an attempt to make other people happy and that he's like grappling with. He's talking about the stepstones there, but I think it applies more broadly to his character. And it all leads to that moment with Reneera at the end. where he makes a pledge to her. She's about to exit the small council chambers

and he confesses to her. I did waver at one time. But then he says, I swear to you now on your mother's memory, you will not be supplanted. And he makes that assurance to her after an episode that is spent grappling with his dreams

and the signs that everybody, including him, are reading. So let's talk about the dragon dreams and the royal portents here. I love to talk about dragon dreams. We witness an incredible scene in front of a roiling fire, beautiful bonfire there, where Viseras absolutely hammered. I wondered if Lansel Lannister had traveled through time to ensure that the king did not lack refreshment on the hunt,

much like with Bobby B. is utterly despondent and tells Allison about his dragon dreams. we've talked a lot about the dreams through the first couple pods. This was an amazing scene where we got to learn so much about the stock that Viseras put into the dream, not only as a sign, but as a way to see himself in the long line, right, of Targaryen history. He says, many in my line have been dragon riders, very few among us have been dreamers. What is the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy? And he also adds, I so wanted it to be true, to be a dreamer myself. I was so, so, so struck by this.

And not just in a vacuum, but in the context of what we've chatted about a lot over the last couple weeks, not being a dragon rider anymore after Balarian's death. And maybe he sees this dream, this prophecy as a way to cement his station, as this legacy affirming thing, this pathway to being a truly special and great Targaryen king, a chosen one, sanctioned by the state. signs. What did you make of this? This pursuit of validation. I love this. And I love how much, like, this is such an addition of the show to the character of Asaris in the book. The character of Ascerus in the book, a vacillator, a party king, a people pleaser, but not necessarily

leaning into this idea of him being a dreamer. And so I was listening to his great interview that Ryan Condal gave the history of Westrose podcast, where he was talking about how fascinating he is by the character, Darren the Dreamer, or Dare on the Dreamer. Or Dare on the drunken. That's a later figure in Targaryen history. So, like, this is not, this exists hundreds of years down the line or whatever. But Darren the Dreamer, he has this great quote, is a feature in the Duncan Egg books. And he has this great quote where he says, My brothers have my measure when it comes to fighting and dancing and thinking and reading books. But none of them is half my equal lying and sensible in the mud, right? So there he's talking about

being like a drunk. But the reason that Darren the dreamer is drunk all the time is he is besieged by these incredibly accurate dreams. And it torments him and it plagues him. So watching Viseris get increasingly drunk in this episode and being plagued by the uncertainty and the pressure and the whatever and the wanting to feel his place in comparison to his brothers, it really feels like Ryan Condal took a character that he loved Darren the Dreamer and sort of like shoved him into the margins of Vassaris here.

And I love it. I think it works really, really well to enrich the story. I love that. I think that's spot on. And the torment really manifests for Viseris here because we can feel and see as he is recounting and confessing and bearing his soul to Allison.

The way that his guilt haunts him. He says, I poured all my thought and will into it. My obsession killed Reneira's mother. He is like choking out these words through the tears. So this was legitimately sad to watch. Patty. I thought this was just an unbelievable Patty episode.

I think he's been great through the whole show, but this was a tort of force. It really was. This is the Emmy Real. The Emmy Real. Yeah. Absolutely. And we see, crucially, the way that the doubt has gripped him and still does.

And this was, I think, an essential element of this episode. Because it's not just the other people, the Jason Lannisters, the Otto High Towers, the Hobart High Towers, who were saying, have you thought about this? actually, can I make this suggestion to you? It is this voice, this nagging question inside of his own heart and mind. He says, I thought Renier was the way out of my abyss of grief and regret, that naming her air would begin to set things right. I never imagined I would remarry that I would have a sin. What if I was wrong?

Now that what if I was wrong is a haunting final note that could mean many things and open many doors. What did you make of this? I really, like Vassaris himself, I feel like he, I feel like the best read of this for a character like Vesaris is what if I was wrong about literally everything? What if I was wrong that I'm a dreamer? What if I was wrong that Agon was right? But also, what if I was wrong to name Reneer? Like, all he wants is someone to tell him what to do, which is why Allison does a really good match to sort of gently. Like, as much as he box against people telling him what to do, what he really wants, is to know what the right thing to do is because he feels incapable of making that a situation.

by himself because he's afraid of hurting people, right? No matter what I choose, I'm hurting someone is what he says, right? I think it's really notable that in this section while he's talking to Alicent about this, and Chris is really right to point out on Talk to Thrones that, like, the fact that that Alicent is the audience here feels very important. But also, in the books, Reneer is known as the Realm's Delight. He calls her the Realm's Delight. Here is the first mention we get of the Realm's Delight.

And he's like, I really thought I was making a pretty popular decision. She's the realm's delight. And now none of them want her. What the hell? You know, like, little did I know how many misogynists were running, you know, like how deep this runs. And I put my daughter in this awful position. Like, what if I was wrong? It's really heartbreaking.

It is. Since you mentioned Allison's audience, I wanted to ask you, do you think, and again, we've mentioned before that the reveal of Agon the Conqueror's Dream is a new thing for the show. So we genuinely do not know what the answer in this is. Yeah. Do you think now that he has revealed this to Allison, taking her

into his heart and mind to this extent, he will tell her about Agon's prophecy? We talked about this a little bit in the book section last week about sort of like who will know what going forward. And I will just say

as vaguely as possible, I to like the idea of Allison not knowing. Are you, are you team she will know or team she won't? I don't. This was the first time I had considered the possibility that maybe he would tell her after seeing what he shared here. I have no clue. I think you're right that it's still, it's, it's less likely than likely, certainly.

But this was the first time that I was like, huh? I don't know. Give my guy a, uh, the finest vintage from the. Arbor for a day and a half and anything could happen. Anything can happen. I love Joe what you said a minute ago about the way that the doubt could be interpreted in so many different ways and that the question of what if he was wrong could apply to so many different decisions and things.

Because I think that takes us nicely to the last thing that we wanted to talk about before we get to our awards, which is this portent of the white heart, something that Viseras is processing in real time. across this episode. This is, the white heart is, of course, a symbol across not just this episode and this story, but storytelling at large, religion, mythology, folklore. In the inside the episodes and the making ofs, the showrunners chatted a lot about Arthurian legend and this symbol of divine rule is something that they were specifically drawing on here.

you know, this idea of transformation and rebirth is very much associated with the white stag, which I think certainly fits this episode, given the number of times we've talked about, rebirth and a baptism in blood in this episode, purity, strength, the quest, the messengers. It's a very rich and laden symbol. On across a song of ice and fire, obviously the stag is the sigil of House Baratian. We chatted on Talk the Thrones a bit about how King Roberts, fateful hunt, when he was ultimately skewered by a boar, or what Reneira and Kristen take down here, he set out initially in pursuit of a white heart.

We've chatted more broadly about the animal imagery and symbolism across George's tales, finding that dire wolf and that stag dead together in a Game of Thrones. Yeah, when we didn't mention that I really like is that when Stanis and his men are starving outside of Winterfell, they sup that night on a venison stew made from a scrawny heart that a scout called Benjicot branch had brought down but only in the royal tent this idea that like Stannis is the scrawny heart

this like stag at the end of this symbol of house Barathe and just skin and bones at the end of his life sort of thing It's really fascinating I bet that tasted better than boiling the bindings of books so a rich symbol He's had worse it's true

Oh, status. Boy. So inside this episode, the symbol of the white heart is discussed many times. It's identified as a sign on Prince Agon's name day that he is meant to rule. Otto has a couple lines about this. He says, the stag is the king of the kings. Would your grace regal portent for Prince Agon's name day? And then later says, I've never been one for signs and portents, your grace. But if the gods did wish to show their favor, We hear it from Jason too. It's as if the seven themselves have blessed this day. Quick question. Would you say signs and portents are the same things, just like schemes and plots are the same thing? Yeah, absolutely. We need to just do a remix of Tyrion's line,

but for signs and portents this time. Same thing. Same thing. Same thing. I love it. That feels like that's going to be an applicable bit moving forward on our house of the dragon pots. Can't wait.

Vesaris's reaction to these signs, but also then to the Brown's stag, not for Whiteheart in that decisive moment, the weight of the signs, the discussion of what they might indicate, seem to be dragging him down all episodes from the very first mention. Ryan Condal said in the inside the episode, we know that Fasaris is kind of prone to mythology and signs and dreams and symbolism and to have that symbol put in front of him on this day where he's really secretly. wondering whether he's made a wrong decision and then be forced to reckon with it on a dramatic level was a really interesting thing for us. So that's weighing on him. And then this moment where they arrive, he's rubbed the ship between his fingers, he's sniffed, he's gone back for more drinks, he's buried his soul. Okay, they have the stack. He wiped it. He wiped it on auto. Just FYI. We need some Purell in the seven. Bindoms. Concerning all around. Shrubbling all around.

He gets there, Joe. All this talk, all episode long. It's not the white heart. All of these men are assembled to pin down for him. And we heard Otto say the Damon on the bridge in episode two. We called it a mummer's farce. This is the ultimate mummer's farce here, right? This play acting of this great kingly kill.

And it's, it feels. open to interpretation what is playing out on his face. He's closing his eyes, he's breathing in, but it seems that it is weighing on him in myriad respects. So I think you can interpret it, and this is part of the fun of it and what fits with what you were saying earlier, in all of these directions at once. And one's not coming at the expense of the other. They're all in his mind at the same time. On the one hand, this is another prophecy that didn't pan out for Vassaris Targaryen. Another reason for him to doubt whether he is the chosen one, whether the gods have sanctioned him, whether he has been blessed in this way. On the other hand, it did feel like there

was this palpable relief mixed in with that, knowing that he's not going to immediately have to put stock in the whims of the men of the realm who would say, well, look, look at how the gods have blessed Agon's name day with this white heart. now have to raise his claim. This is a reprieve. It's an excuse that allows him to stick by his decision to stay by Rainira, but then also a sign that maybe he didn't make the wrong choice because the white heart didn't choose somebody else, but it also didn't choose him.

So this was just a fascinating thing that I really loved. And Sopachnik in the inside the episode, you know, said something to that effect. He said, so then when it turns out it's not a white stag, but it's a brown one, his relief is palpable, but also in a funny way, there's disappointment that sometimes these things aren't meant to be. Vesaris.

Any thoughts on the response to the portent? No. Portents and signs. What did you think more broadly of the theater of the kill and contrasting his kill to Damans and Reneiras?

He has to just walk away with everybody clapping for him knowing what a farce this all is. What does you think? think of this. Yeah, a real, a real, uh, please clap moment for our guy of Saris. Really tough. I like this idea that eventually we can apply to DeNaris Targaryen, our most famed Targaryen, this idea of like, what if you destroy the thing you're trying to save? Like, what if in the attempt

to placate everyone, um, you know, as perfectly encapsulated by his inability to make one strong, you know, killing blow, but just sort of half measure his way through the death of this of this stag. He torments the stag. We hear this awful sound out of the stag. And it's just sort of like, you know, you're trying to protect the realm and trying to save your line. But in your, in your wishy-washy indecision way, you're actually damaging the thing you're trying to save. And I think about dinner is just setting a torch to Kings Landing, which is like, you're the savior of the small people.

Is that what you're trying to do as you roast them alive with your dragon flame? Like what's going on here? So it's tough. Tough look. It's a great point. And also, like, I personally would prefer to not measure strength and worth by slaying a beautiful creature in the woods. Absolutely not. We know that that is what is on the minds of all those people gathered there.

And to go in that moment from, you will be the beneficiary of this great godly symbol to everybody like, what's going on here? Is he going to need a second stroke and instructions for a little to the left from the huntsman to actually make this happen? And that ties in more broadly to the way that Otto doesn't want anybody to know about the rotting flesh or the back source

and this constant question of don't give them a reason to doubt you even for a second. What is everybody who's standing there going to think after that? And then, of course, we contrast that with the fact that the white heart does in fact appear just not for Vassaris and not for Aigon. It appears for Reneira, this gorgeous sequence where Reneira and Kristen are up on this cresting hill and the camera pans on their heads turn. And there it is. Quiet, majestic, magnificent, just looking at her breathing. It is this,

there's this really quiet and calm and peace in that sequence. Such a contrast to the hustle and bustle and violence, even though she's covered in blood, of the hunt down below. And there's the significance of the stag appearing for her and what that signals in an episode spent harping on and focusing on what that would signify that she has been chosen. But then there's also the significance of her decision because Kristen goes to draw his blade and she stops him and she lets that stag go. What did you make of that decision? So we got several great emails about this, comparing this to this really, really incredible scene from the 2006 film, The Queen, where Helen Mirren, who plays Queen Elizabeth, experiences something similar where she sees a stag. She stays the hunters and she lets the stag go.

It's the scene that basically won Helen Mirren her Oscar for that film. And what's true about that scene in that film, and that really helped me unlock how I'm understanding this scene is in that film is in that film, there's like, kind of a few interpretations of that moment. This is Queen Elizabeth recognizing. This is the plot of the queen is about Queen Elizabeth and trying to come to terms with the death of Princess Diana. And the whole movie, she sort of like has no empathy for Diana. And she's like, so what?

She shunned us. Why am I supposed to care? All this sort of stuff. And then she sees a stag and sort of like in this moment, is she seeing in the stag the hounded, hunted, and pursued Princess Diana. And it is in this moment in her empathy for this stag, is she having empathy for Princess Diana? Similarly, another great interpretation is in this moment as she sees the stag, is she seeing herself hounded by people who want her response to the death of Princess Diana? They're demanding a quote from her.

They're demanding a speech from her. And she's like, what, you know, what is going on? The screenwriter for the film, Peter Morgan, who went on to make the crown, said it sort of dawned. me as a metaphor really when I learned that, a stag that has 14 points is a stag that you generally already have been cold. It is something that has somehow escaped capture. It resonated for me. You know, I feel pretty much the same way about our monarchy. I feel like for some reason they've managed to get away with it. They've survived perhaps longer than one of might have expected. The creature has a perennial ability. And then like this idea of the white stag in Arthurian legend,

the creature has a perennial ability to evade capture and that the pursuit of the animal is mankind's spiritual quest. So there's so much richness here for Rainer. It's not just that Renira we hear at the beginning of the episode does not really love a hunt, doesn't love the sound of Boar. She sounds like screaming children, spares a shitty look for her shitty brother in that moment, etc. But it's like, is she seeing herself in the stag? This girl who is being hounded and pursued with many a suitor, including Jason Lannister. She's like, let's let's let, this dag go. She is, she is, how did she's pursued?

Let us let her have some peace after all, you know, which I think is really beautiful. Because it couldn't really make it work as a symbol for the realm, but as a symbol of her understanding herself better, I really liked it, especially if it comes post-baptism of blood. Yeah. This is a moment. She's had her transformation. She's gotten her rage out.

So what is she processing here and now? Empathy for herself. Empathy for her situation. Yeah, I love that. And I think also like we heard Vassaris refer to her also in the episode as a heedless contrarian. And he means it as a dig there, but there's an aspect of that that is at the core of Roneiro's strength and what makes her so worthy of our affection and investment. Like she is a truly different thinker

from a lot of the other people in the realm. And I like thinking of like how few characters would possess the restraint to make the decision that she made there. So many other people in that situation would say, this is my moment. This is the thing, the pelts that I can, the horns, the antlers, I can bring back and say, you doubted me.

Here it is, proof that I am the worthy one. And that's not the choice she makes because she doesn't want to play their games. Because playing their games means that she has to play in their pool. And that's not the way that she wants to live her life. And I thought that this was like an incredibly powerful visual and sequence. It was one of my favorite parts of the episode. Loved it. Me too.

Speaking of favorite parts of the episode, Joe, it's time to make the eight with our rapid episode awards. Hell yeah. Incredible episode for our first award, wig watch. So many choices. Best and worst wig. Take it away. Okay, my best is actually going to Renera and Damon as a tie for the blood and the hair. And I think that's a really good use of the blonde wig is to like, how starkly the blood stands out in the blonde. So really does. It makes me think of those commercials where like a cat knocks a pot of tomato sauce onto white carpet or something like that. It makes me think of one of the greatest comedies of this or any other era game night, which involves the best.

The best. Oh, my God. What's your best wing, Mallory Rubin? perhaps unsurprisingly, I am going with breakbones as man bun, which I fucking loved. Fantastic. Fantastic work. I think that that's the guy's actual hair, though. But I will give it to best hair.

I was going to ask you if it's eligible for a wig watch. I tried to do some Googling to see if it was his actual hair or a wig. I think it is. I'm going with it anyway. I'll accept it. Worse for me is Jason Fulken Lanister. We're not giving it to Targary in the week. We're giving it to Alinister.

And here's the deal. I think they were trying really hard to distinguish because the same actor is playing Thailand and Jason Linister. They're really trying to let not only the performance, but the wig do a lot of work. But that was not it. That was not my favorite wig that I've ever seen. No. How about you? Mallory.

I'm sorry to do this. I don't want to hurt you. I am going with Damon's Warwig, which I found deeply distressing. We have. Questions for what his hair tie is made of. That was something that Valerie and I were wondering. He's got like a black, like a goodies. You could get it at Rite Aid hair tie in his hair.

What is that made of? Like a sinew that Karaxes lent him maybe. Yeah. Great question. Oh, my God. All right. Fit watch. Best and worst fit.

Some amazing fits in this episode. I think Corleys looks resplendent. And his armor. I love that. I'm going with Samwell, the singer. I loved this. Great. Worst.

So Corleys has a lot of, like, he's got rock in the seahorse sigil, as you should when you're wearing armor. Otto has a big old tower, like, embroidered on the front of his tunic that I thought looked really dumb for a hunt. You're not in battle, sir. We all know your house high tower. You don't need to wear the shirt of the band that you're going to see. Like, yeah, auto worse. I mean, as you know, I love merch. So it's maybe just a passion that I share with House High Tower.

You're going to get a High Tower jersey? Okay. I don't roll it out. I'm not sure if I can allow myself to buy more Game of Thrones shirts. I just have so many. And yet, will anything stop me? Probably not. For worst, I'm going with the crab feeders,

Harpy mask head straps. Now, yes, we've talked about the mask before. It wasn't new in this episode. What was new was the numerous lingering camera shots of him turning his head and showing us the way the straps were wedging under and into the gray scale flakes. It was absolutely revolting. So that's the worst for me. Won't miss seeing that.

Next. Gross. They got bigger and bigger. Best bit of Dragon Dumb. It's the sole patch on C-Smoke, and you will not convince me otherwise. It's a great pick, but I'm going to try to convince you otherwise with my pick. To me, it is without question. hearing that poor

fucker who had been staked to the tripwood. Save me my prince, David. Save me. Yeah, my friends. Save me. And then Karexie's landing

and stomping him into goo. That was like an all-time Thrones death. That was really good. The soldiers taking a piss and then getting

mauled by Greywind. This was just remarkable stuff. Yes, my prince save me. Number four. Yeah. The doctrine of exceptionally weird sex stuff. Anything on the sex or...

We could just broaden this to relationships. It's a pretty sexist episode, but let's just... Oh, you want to put the baby in here, don't you? It's difficult for me not to pick the boy just turned two auto. Yes. For me, it is the sound of Kristen Cole unsheathing his sword in the firelight. And Reneer's face and reaction to it. That's my.

Oh, boy, I'll channel my best Taiwan Lanster here. I respect that. Number five. if the show had Netflix subtitles. This is an honor of our dearly departed crab feeder. It is the innards drag stickily. Oh my God, we picked the same thing again. I can't believe it.

What did you do? It was an amazing pattern that has developed on House of R. I went with crab feeder intestines slosh saltily. Oh, slosh saltily. Or dragistically. So mine is the drag leading up to. And then yours is the moment in the surf. There's some nice sequencing here.

Archmaster Ebrose could never. Best quote. I'm going to give it to Jason Lannister. Who said, it's been said that if one were to stand in the tower on a perfect day, one could see clear across the sunset sea, which is real Sarah Palin. can see Russia from my house energy from Jason Lannister. What's West of Lannisport?

Let's find out. Oh, my God. I love this. How many burners do you think Jason Lannister has to leave five-star Yelp reviews for Castorley Rock? So many. More numbers than more than Chris and Cole has useful destinations. My pick is also about, it's Jason Lannister adjacent.

It is a Rainier of a Saras Exchange where Reneer says he's arrogant and self-serious. And Vassar says, I thought you might have that in common. Iconic dad, iconic dad moment. I loved it. Unbelievable. I was on Vissaris' side in that. Too good of a burn.

Too good of a burn. This is absolutely sick burn right there. Number seven, I gathered that from all the lions. Most exciting new character arrival. You know my answer. It's Laris. It's Laris Club. It's the biscuit nibbler phrasing himself.

Laris Strong. Oh my God. Yeah. It has to be Laris. Is the Laris for you two? I have I just said the Strong Brothers. Okay. If you made me pick you.

We all know you're in Team Harwin. I get it. I get it. All right. I mean, break bones. It's just unbelievable. Seas Smoke and Breakbones in the same episode. Two of the best names in the canon.

Someone on Twitter called Laris the break biscuits. Oh my God. I love it. All right. I ask your favor. Who won the episode? Unfortunately, I have a tie. Okay.

And it's this. Actor-wise. Okay. It's Patty. It's Patty by a mile. For sure. Yeah. Incredible Patty episode.

Character-wise, it's out. in Hightower. That's my pick too. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Exactly. Yes.

Has to be. Politicking from the rear. Alton High Tower. To be. Oh my God. That's not what I meant. All right. Faceless man watch.

I'm so happy Steve is here in spirit. Oh my God. Who's your pick for this episode? Who's a faceless man in this episode? This episode, this answer brought to you by me watching. the house the dragon built Making of It is the boar himself

And if you watch the making of It's just a guy in a blue suit It looks incredible His like blue spandex clad But just turns into the butt of the boar Seemously it's so good The boar I love it

If I were an assassin in Westeros tried to kill Princess Ranira I'd transform myself into a boar I love it Great pick. Didn't work out very well for that faces man in that case. I wonder if that'll change the taste of the meal that they all enjoy at their next feast. I also wonder like if faces man were like, okay, no more transmogrifying.

Just faces only now. Didn't work out for a bore guy. All right, what's your pick, Mallory? I'm going with Lady Red Wine, you know, for the reasons already discussed. I was told that we never jested about cake. Now we're adjusting about kick. It puts me on my guard. I start to doubt that gets suspicious.

Puck here. Cute little poppy. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet little pug. Okay. Joe, it is time for our book. Spoiler, look ahead.

If you do not want to hear about future fire and blood events, bounce. It's been a joy to spend this time with you. If you want to hear, stick around because it's time for a dance of dragon dreams. There's a lot to talk about. There's a lot we could talk about. There's a lot we will talk about. let's start with the with the strongs again because this is a we we we love the strongs i love how you came in so hot on trial uh trial chris was literally like i don't know i don't know you came in so

i love who came in so hot on talk to thrones because like it's uh i was trying to remember the name of the five game of thrones podcast that i do um you're like more like break the bed and i was like mallory is well you know he's uh he's handsome so it's handsome also now that we're in our our our books section, we can say, he is the widely believed to be the father of Renera's three. He and Renair are going to have sons with Lador, Valerian. So that's a thing that's coming. Yep. Speaking of Strongs, my favorite strong is going to become master of whispers in the future. Also, widely suspected of possibly killing his father and his brother in the Herald fire. So this is tough.

Yeah, this is tough. This is actually pretty high on my list of things I'm really eager to get the actual answer to. Right. Because there are so many different possibilities. Was it Laris? Was it Laris? Is it the curse of Haranhope? We're going to find out on this year television show.

What a treat. Can't wait. I don't want to take a goodbye to Harwin so soon, though. I don't know. Good news for me. Good news for me. Laris is here for the duration. It's true.

And a change in station, presumably right around the bend in showland for Pops, for Lionel, right? And I love this, that we see him, like, giving such good advice a couple episodes in a row. It really puts him in a good position to be Hand of the King. So, for a little while. Oh, my God. Speaking of future hands, Lannisters. Thailand. It's around for the long haul here.

Yeah, and Jason. Thailand will be, Egan the 2nd's, Master of Coin, and eventually Agan the 3rd's hand. And Master of Coin, the fact that he's in that station at a moment of real consequence, and the story actually has, like, huge bearing on the events to come, because when he seizes the Royal Treasury,

that is a moment of Supreme Import, and they're aligned with the Greens. So that's a big deal. And he, like, sends it to the four corners of the Westros. It's a brilliant move. But, yeah, like you said, like her rejection of Jason here, Reneira's rejection of Jason sets up House Lannister to be.

And you see Allison is in good standing with House Lannister. Like Reneira Pisses off the ladies. Allison, making nice of them all afternoon. So, and this Lannister, Kura Lannister is the head

of House Lannister right now, I think is the idea. Or maybe Jason is, but either way. They're influences. Reneer's marriage. Yeah. Can I read the part of the quote that I stopped short of reading in our main section earlier from the book about all the different proposals? The next sentence is, Queen Allison had her own candidate, her eldest son, Prince Agon.

Reneer's half-brother, but Agan was a boy, the princess 10 years, his elder. Moreover, the two half-siblings had never gotten on well. All the more reason to bind them together in marriage, the queen argued. Vassaris did not agree. The boy is Allison's own blood, he told Lord Strong. She wants him on the throne. It's a choice to not have it play out this way yet on the show. Meanwhile, she does marry Lainor.

So Lionel Strong comes in with the correct answer. Laynor Valerian. However, as I mentioned, who did we meet at the battle? Not really, but he's there. Joffrey of Lonmouth. Lonmouth. I don't know how you pronounce it. I'm saying Lonmouth.

Who's Lainor's boyfriend? Because if you haven't read the books, You should know that Lainor prefers gentlemen. And the Knight of Kisses is his preferred gentleman. So they boyfriends who fight in the stepstones together stay together even when you marry the heir to the Rome. Reneira's read on the prospective match in Fire and Blood is, The Princess knew much and more about Lainor Valerian and had no wish to be his bride. My half-brothers would be more to his taste, she told the gang.

Speaking of House Valerian dynamics. Yes. Vaman's future betrayal of Corlis. Because when Corlis gets sick, Vaman, who again was introduced here as a younger brother rather than another member of the family, sort of makes moves to take over because, as will be very clear, I think, in the show,

given the sort of racial makeup of the various players, Reneer's children are not Valarian children. So he's like, why would I let them take over her house Valerian if they're not Valarian children? So his sort of mutiny is seated pretty well here, I think. Doesn't go super

well for him. But yeah, it was good table setter in this intro. Yeah. What about, in terms of the matter of succession, Vesaris has pledged to Reneira. I think it's been fascinating, unsurprisingly, to see how many show watchers. Chris even said it on Talk the Thrones.

I know. No way this holds. That's the kind of thing that you say if it's definitely not going to be the case. And it's just so fascinating because Vassaris is going to remain steadfast. Whatever we can say about Vassaris, we know that he does not go back on this promise

that he makes to Reneer here. In fact, like, adamant, dogged, in the face of, like, clear infidelity on her part. Well, not infidelity. I think it's an arrangement she has with Lenore, but like clear children that are not her own. He's like, what do you mean?

Quosaia. But Sarah's, I want to talk really quickly about the accuracy of his prophecy. Because what is he saying this episode? He says, I saw it in a dream as vivid as he slams. I saw it a male babe born to me wearing the conqueror his crown. And what's so interesting about the crown situation is that when he dies, someone loyal to Reneira takes his crown, Jeheris's crown,

his Vizaris's crown, to Reneura over a dragonstone. So what is Agonne wind up wearing the conqueror's crown, the crown of rubies? Like so what he saw is real. Right. A male issue of, you know,

of his line sitting on the throne wearing the conqueror's crown. It's going to happen. Egg two. So you were a dreamer Vassaris. I know. You did. You were right, buddy.

Should we chat for a second about Otto's impending ouster as hand? Because I thought this episode did a good job of starting to establish a little bit of tension brewing between Vassaris and Otto. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, this definitely, like, we don't know exactly what the cause will be that will send him packing. But if he continues to press this agenda, doesn't seem like it's going over very well. With Vassaris. Right. So here's a passage

from fire and blood. Still, questions persisted, not the least from Queen Alison herself. Loudest amongst her supporters was her father, Sir Otto Hightower, handed the king. Push too far on the matter

in 109 AC, Viseris stripped Sir Otto of his chain of office and named in his place Tasturned Lord of Harenhall, Lionel Strong. This hand will not hector me, his grace proclaimed.

I love looking at that quote now because we've actually heard Vissera say, who is he to hector me? before just about other characters. So like I'm waiting for him to say exactly that. It's going to be really fun. That's great.

Allison's pregnancy. Yeah. So this is pregnant. Agon's two here pregnant with with baby number two. Helena. Helena? What do we think? I think Helena.

Helena? Okay. Who will, you know, they're the Targs. Wind up marrying Agan. So if anyone was worried. Wait, wait. Don't worry.

Yeah, if you thought Agon wasn't going to marry his sister, he will. It's fine. It'll just be his full sister instead of his half-sister. Even better for the darks. He's younger sister. It's fine. God, this fucking family. She ends up riding Dreamfire, so that's fun.

Hiped about that. Top three dragon name for you. I want to talk about Allison. Allison for a second here. Do it. Please. Okay. I want to read this line that I think is so important from Fire and Blood in terms of what we've been talking about,

about who writes this story, who gets to tell this story. Here's how the book sums up the rift between Allison and Reneira. The amity between her grace and her stepdaughter had proved short-lived for both Reneira and Allison aspired to be the first lady of the realm. Wildly inaccurate of the situation we're seeing here. I think it's like a bullshit, myopic, dumb, probably sexist view of. both of them wanted to be the most important lady. Like, yeah, if you want to shout out Samwell, the bard under the godswood, as like one of our sources here, and we can see what Reneer saying, the princess commands you and the queen commands you, like that's a consent.

But that's not what's, it's not each aspire to be the first lady of the realm is not what's going on here. And this is why I want to read part two of Michael's email about Allison that I thought was so interesting. Michael writes, in continuation of this idea that Allison has never gotten to make a decision for herself or be allowed to think about what she wants. Michael writes, so I see Allison's arc as not so much one of ambition or even desperation, but of agency suddenly and painfully acquired. I know I'll be paying attention to all the ways big and small in which Allison's life and wants are proven not to be her own because there will come a point in this tale where she is finally able to ask herself what. she wants. And whatever the answer is, she will for the first time be empowered to take it. I don't think the answer Allison comes to will be a good one. Presumably, this is still the green queen we all love to hate from fire and blood. But I do think it's an illuminating and important

arc that is much more nuanced than girl becomes power hungry or girl is a secret schemer that some seem to think it is. What do you do when you've never had the keys to your own life and suddenly you're in the driver's seat? I think a lot of people, to some degree or another, eventually have to answer that question. And when we get that moment from the trailer when Renice asks Allison, like, haven't you ever thought about yourself on the other? You know, it's just sort of like, I love this idea. It's really been bothering me this idea that like the way that some people are characterizing Allison does, like, sly. She is subtle, but I would not say she's sly yet. I genuinely believe at this point in her story, she is still wholeheartedly backing Reneira. I genuinely

believe that. So we'll see. We'll see how long that lasts, but I do believe that's where she is right now. I love that. We got another email from Christopher about the little, the little dragon that Egg 2 is playing with. And Christopher says, I'm wondering if either you notice that the toy dragon little Agon was holding looked like a miniature version of Maly's. And like Egg 2 is responsible for bringing down Maly's. I'm not sure that since we haven't seen Maly's yet, I'm not ready to call it that. But I was wondering if you had thoughts about like what that dragon toy was meant to

convey. I just assume all the Targ babies get little dragon toys and they're constantly being raised and nurtured to think about the fact that they need to become dragon riders one day. But I like that as a little Easter egg. It's a fun idea. When we see Maley's for the first time, we'll do a little side-by-side comparison with a dragon toy. See how that. I'm always down for an Easter egg, Much like when Reneer talked about people feasting on her bones, I was like, here's a nice setup for what happens with Dreamfire. Too much. Bowie, can we skip to Kristen Cole really quickly?

Please. Always happy to chat about Kristen Cole. You already mentioned it in the non-book reader section when he says, immediately, do you want me to kill him? Ha, ha, just joking. I'm like, fuck, this dude is so scary. I know. It was, they were so, I mean, we've had,

We've talked about him in the book reader section of every episode so far, and I think that's notable. Like, they're really laying the track for what is to come here and what a, what a seismic role he has to play when she said, tell me something, Sir Kristen, do you think the realm will ever accept me as their queen? And he says, they'll have no choice but two, princess. It's like, sad. Really rude for those two. Yes, really hot psycho coming up, Kristen Cole. Oh, my God. Speaking of hot psychos.

Oh, I was going to. I was getting out of Damon. Well, I do want to talk about Viseras and Missy Fingers. Let's talk about the missing fingers, yeah. Just for a hot second. This is an unforgivable omission. I'm sorry.

Okay. Right. Tell the listeners what the drama is in Fire and Blood over the missing fingers. So I actually, I have a question, I guess, because this is really like a late stage thing for Vissaris and Fire and Blood where the cut to the bone,

the fever setting in, the near-death experience as this wound is festering, the arguments about treatment, it becomes this political thing, like the future health and viability of this man's digits and an actual life, he never sits on the Iron Throne again after that. And like, that's just not how this is playing out at all.

So I wonder, or is something else, like, is an equivalent injury or ailment gonna, occur. It has to, right? It feels too juicy to leave alone because the idea is that, like, Allison's like, our macer says it's fine. And Reneer is like, I'm bringing my master to come look at my dad because I don't think your maister is doing his job. We already got this set up with Macer Mellos, uh, you know, in, I mean, not only the maggot thing, but in the very first episode when Mesa Mellos is like, looking at the pus and he's like, uh, and the younger Master's like, should we quarterize it? Like, what do you? I don't know why I just said

that word that way. But like, should, I think it's very Maryland of me. Should be, should be counterize it. And he's like, oh, I guess we should. And I think the idea, as far as I remember in the book, is that Allison brings a younger maister in to be like, can you help my dad? This old fart doesn't know what he's doing. And it sets up a very like, is my stepmom trying to kill my dad sort of dynamic between Allison and Renara. So I feel like that still has to happen and that we wouldn't have gotten the back wound and finger cut if that wasn't going to 100% become relevant in some way. So I'm going with, this is fine. The fingers are just gone.

I love the way Riley and his column was like, did the maggots not work or did they work too well? Like the idea that they just gnawed away. Are you saying the maggots dug too greedily and too deep into Vassar's flush? Yeah. And then a Balrog popped out of his hand. Shout out to Star Wars fan George R. Martin for his weird hand stuff, be it Davos or Jamie or Vassaris's

fingers. I love it. I love it. Oh, my God. All right, well, I can't wait to see what body part the king loses next to cause all of this. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Damon, this was just shown in the teaser for next episode that he comes back, styled King of the Stepstones in the Narrow Sea. we will presumably learn also next week that Corlis crowns him.

I guess I was a little surprised that they showed that, but also maybe not because they showed in the last teaser that Agon was a character now. So I don't know. They're putting a lot in those. That's fine. That's fun. King Damon. Follow question.

You ready? Yeah, follow question. Do you think blood is so hard to get out of bleached hair and that's why he cuts it all off? Like, why does he cut all his hair off? Literally, yes. What other explanation is there? Unless it's just like, I need a change. To get lice?

Is he worried he got some gray scale in his hair and he got to cut it off? Like, I don't, I have a question. That's a great one. The crab feeder purge. Yeah. Let's go with that. Speaking of the crab feeder and the triarchy, like, it pains me to say, you know, we're not done with the stepstones or the triercy.

I mean, we weren't certainly in fire and blood. Maybe we will be in the show. That was my question for you. Do you think that even though Craveeter's gone, peace out, Kragis, we hardly knew you, will we get the ensuing Dorn involvement

as the conflict and the stepsones continues? Do you think that'll happen on the show? I think more likely it's the second idea that like Otto will use the triarchies with Damon and Corlis because Otto gets the triarchy to sort of

join the high tower side of the fight. I don't think we've said the word triarchy this many times on the show to not bring them back again for something. You know? Yeah. I like the auto idea too. It would be interesting to try to incorporate Dornan in that way, but

I would love it. Yeah. I think the auto guess is Dornish. God, they're all Dornish. Oh my God. Did you want to very briefly mention anything else we glimpsed from the next time on?

I just want to zip through this giant revelation in the next time on trailer, which is I thought. Speaking of shocking things to put in the teaser for the next episode. I was like, what? That the prophecy is literally written on the dagger. Maybe that answers some of our how does it get passed down questions or maybe it gives me more questions. But it seems like, and we alluded to this in an earlier book section just because they talked

about it in one of the behind the scenes. And we were like, what exactly does that mean? It seems like literally the prophecy is written. on a dagger. You like plunge it to the fire. It's like invisible ink. You plunge it in the fire and the prophecy is revealed on the dagger. It's like you toss in the one ring into the fire. I love it. Also, there's this whole drama. Something's happening with Renira. And I think from context clues for book readers, we see her dressed as like a young boy, sort of sneaking out of the keep. And we also see Damon sort of in a cloak. And we know in the books that Damon would smuggle, according to some

sources that David would smuggle Reneera out of the palace dressed as a boy and go visit the streets of silk as part of her sexual education that he was part of. To learn the quote, womanly arts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, listen. It's a story of Targars.

This is what you signed up for. Welcome to House of the Dragon. Well, you've been waiting to do your tale of the tape, which unreliable narrator is most accurate. And that's a big one for. It's coming literally. Yeah. Timmy.

Yeah, there it is. Oh, my God. Could there be a more fitting end note, I think not? Oh, boy. All right. Allison said that none of it needs be this way in truth. And yet the conclusion of today's podcast

has arrived all the same. Thank you to our dragon lords. Carlos Chiroboga for subbing in today for Steve as the producer of this episode. Thank you, Carlos. Arjunna Ramgapal for his additional production work on this episode, and Jomea Denneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember to send us your emails at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com.

We will see you on Friday for our Rings of Power episode three deep dive. And then again on Sunday night, immediately after House of the Dragon episode four for Talk to Thrones. Until then, it's as if the seven themselves have blessed this father. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt. Keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by real California farm families.

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