The Ringer-Verse - ‘House of the Dragon’ Episode 3 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: September 5, 2022

Chris Ryan is joined by Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson to give their immediate thoughts and reactions to the third episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ and discuss the war in the Stepstones. Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Mike Wargon Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's The Song of Bison Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson. I've read every book in George R. Martins, a song of ice and fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spin-off series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your question, so send us a raven at Trialby Content at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the Trial by Content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The reins of Castamere hasn't even been written yet. With adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfairadio.com. episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow

sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Oh, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ride. I am an editor at the ringer.com. I'm joined as I always am on Sunday night lights by senior ringer staff writer Joanna Robinson and the ringer's own white stag Mallory Rubin. What's up? Fab Feeder. Mallory just turned around. gracefully like a white stag should to get on Mike. Only a couple of us here today have blood splattered through our blonde hair. I'm not going to say who it is.

You'll have to watch the video to find out what an episode of House of the Dragon, the third one, third episode. And we're going to break it down for you here on Talk of the Thrones. Joanna Mallory, so lovely to see both of you. Chris, it's a joy and a privilege to be here with you both. So I have to say, I came here to hunt. not to be suffocated by all this fucking politicking. Too bad, bro.

Yeah, it's too bad. You shouldn't have been the king then. You could have just been a hunter. We'll get into Vassaris, his drinking problem, his hunting problem, his error problem, all the problems of Vassaris is facing in this episode of House of the Dragon. But I wanted to kind of ask you both to start with because big set piece ending to this episode, quite exciting stuff, both from a team. perspective and an individual performer perspective.

There's a lot of other things happening in this episode, though. So, Joanne, I'll start with you. What was the most important thing that happened in this episode of House of the Dragon? Because I think that thrilling and important might be different things. Yeah, so it's like three quarters, you know, Kingslanding, politicking, and then one quarter stepstone, if that, right, is sort of the balance of the episode. So I would say, like a handful of conversations that Viseras had. has are the most, like, this is a real Vassaris Patty Considine episode and he was fantastic in it.

And I think that is the main focus, which like, through our conversations about Thrones over the years, listening to you guys talk about it, joining you in conversations. I know that we like the conversations and the dialogue and the rich character stuff a bit more than the Dragon Spectacle. But I'm wondering if they felt like they needed the Dragon Spectacle to capture the larger audience here. Mal, what do you think? Most important thing in this episode, you know, I'm tempted to say that the most important thing for our guy, Andy Greenwald, is the introduction of Jason Lannister. Because I know how much he loves when we just get a regular, a regular old 2002 name in the land of Ice and Fire.

He loves a random Brian thrown in there with everybody else. Yeah. And for me personally, you know, I'm sorely tempted to say the highly anticipated. introduction of Harwin. Break bones strong. Let's go break that bed frame together, Harwin. But the actual answer, I think. Can you actually just, what are you talking about?

Like, I know who you're talking about. It's Lionel's son, but like, why? Is that just like a personal fetish of yours, or was that guy actually relevant? I don't know that I would call it a fetish. I think he's a, you know, a handsome lad, strapping night of the Seven Kingdoms. He was in this episode.

This is our intro. Yeah, we get to meet both Harwin and Laris Strong. Both sons of Lionel Stronger in this episode. We had a lot of new characters. Tylin and Jason Lannister. It's great stuff. The actual answer to your question, Chris, we'll find a way to bring up one more later, I assure you. I promise. I agree with Joanna's pick, and I would say inside of that, specifically Viseris assuring, going out of his way to assure Reneira that he will maintain her as heir. that she will not be supplanted.

That is the most consequential moment of the episode. Yeah, that scene had some real arrested development narrator. He didn't vibes to that. Maybe. To that scene. Without like skipping ahead or knowing anything about it, I just felt like that was not the, that was not the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence

that Vernara might have thought it was. You know, Joe, I wanted to just, before we get into the episode recap, hit on something you mentioned there, which is the balance of this show between the conversations and rooms that essentially like create policy and create, create the world that we see versus these huge sort of action set pieces that Game of Thrones as a whole has become known for.

And I actually thought what Greg Yutanis did this week with getting these folks out of the cold chamber like sort of palace rooms and out in the world and getting on the hunt, walking around the forest, looking for some stags, having some drinks, you know, they have like a pop-up restaurant out there. That's great. I love to see the culinary wrinkles that they're throwing. But it was just, this episode felt like it was set in a world and not on a set with a bunch of like sort of palace rooms. Would you agree with that? Yeah. And from like an adaptive point of view, like we've been talking a lot about how fire and blood is this sort of like bare bone text. And the, the hunt that we see in this episode is pure show

invention. So shout out to the writers as well for coming up with like a big set like ish set piece for them to put all this politicking in because the line from the book as far as I can tell that's closest like close enough to this is Vassaris is a man of peace during these years in Kings Landing and there was an endless round of feast balls and tourneys where mummers, Chris Ryan's favorite word, mummers and singers heralded the birth of a new Targaryen princeling. That's the only line. And so then someone in the writer's room was like, let's do a hunt. Let's do all this. And so, you know, shout out to the writer's room. But I completely agree that I loved this widening of the world. And I, too, would like marble columns in my tents when I go camping.

Yeah. I thought that the successionization idea here, like, where you're like, every episode has, like, a gathering to warrant why all these people are in the same room together was really sharp. When do you think Viseras will bring the family onto his yacht? now. And which one of these characters will have a toe fungus? Yeah. It's a good question. Why don't we get into the plot recap?

How about that? Because I think that's why, you know, I am the keeper of the text here. And I know all and I see all when I'm watching these episodes. Joe may have referred to these as bare bones text. But to me, I can see it in color, you know? The three-eyed Ryan. That's right, three-eyed Ryan. It is three years.

We jumped three years ahead, three years after episode two, and the crab feeder is still burning up the stepstones. He's given fits to the collected forces of Corliss and Damon, the latter of whom is flying around on a dragon with little tangible results. I want to get to that. Dragons, are we sure they're good? If all you have to do is just hide in a cave, what's the sort of benefit of air superiority?

Great question. way. Dame primarily wants a one-on-one with the crab feeder and he threatens to feed him to his own crabs, but he is going to have to wait almost 62 minutes of episode time to get that. We find out that Viseris has a two-year-old son named Agon. Otto and others are plotting to have the little boy named Air. Reniro would love to skip this name day celebration that pretty much takes up most of the episodes, but gets cajoled into doing it by Allison, who she, I would describe, is tolerating, but maybe not vibing with, right?

Like, isn't sending her out of sight, but is like, fine, like, you're my queen, but, like, you're not my pal. We can get into their relationship a little bit later. Riner is being bandied about at this, I don't know, what'd you call it, a feast, this name day hunt feast. She's being basically shopped by multiple people

to multiple suitors, including the aforementioned Jason Lannister, who I'm sure is going to make some lady really happy one day, and her own, and her own toddler half-brother, courtesy of Otto, which even for like a Jamie Searcy shipper like myself, was really, you know what?

Like the car started to rattle a little bit there. We may have to turn around. Meanwhile, she seems pretty into Sir Kristen, her king's guard at the Hunt pre-party for Agon's naming. I guess that's what that was. Vesaris is getting completely faded and increasingly vexed over the course of the day

until he drunkenly tells Allison in front of a bonfire that he is a dreamer and once had a vision of a boy wearing a crown and that's why he kept trying for a son thus killing his wife Vesaris takes part in a pretty fixed hunt would basically hold down a deer

for him to kill in search of a legendary white stag and then he winds up killing like a trap deer and doesn't really seem to feel that great about it. Meanwhile Reneera and Kristen kill a boar and that really bonds them together. She gets splattered with blood,

which is a very cool look to me. You can make of that what you will. That's foreshadowing. And then after the hunt, Baceres does three things. He offers to help his brother win the war in the stepstones. He agrees to let his daughter marry for love,

and he swears to her that he is not looking to replace her on the throne. I would say that many of those things, there's only three, several of those things, were incepted by Allison. It's worth noting that she is still, still work in the phones there.

In the stepstones, Damon humbly rejects DeSaris's offer and goes fucking hero ball against an entire army luring out the crab feeder's forces into a dragon bath and cutting the crab guy in half, thus ending that dude's dialogue

for three episode run on House of the Dragon. I thought he was going to be the bit bad of the show. He is not. He is now half a man. So, thus ends this episode. where should we start?

Should we just start at the beginning? I mean, I think that there was a lot happening here. Joe, we got ourselves another episode about visions. I think I, let's do a little thematic work here. Vesaris outs himself as a dreamer. I was hoping that you could kind of tell me a little bit about what seems like a pretty important revelation on his part. I have, if I had to guess, I would imagine the audience,

uh, to whom he was talking was almost as important as the dream itself. He was talking to Allison. Yeah, I think that's really important. I, um, we, we heard a bit from Viseris in the first step. about his dreams. He talked to Emma about them and that he had a dream that he laid his child in the Iron Throne that he was convinced he was going to be a boy. So we already knew this. Saras already knew this, but now Allison knows this. And I couldn't really, as is often the case with Allison, because she's kind of, inscrutable is her thing, right? And so I couldn't really

fully read her reaction, but this is information that she has now in the old High Tower Bank. but I think, you know, to reiterate something we said before, this idea of how important dreams are to the Targaryens. They saved them from the doom of Valeria because one of the Targaryens, Dainees the Dreamer, had a dream and they got out of Dodge before it erupted. So, you know, the Targaryens really prized these dreams. We learned about Agon's dream, a song of Ice and Fire ever heard of it, like in the first episode. But I think what's important is we were talking about this last week that Viseris is not a drag on. He's a Targaryen without a Dragon. And so I feel like I'm wondering if maybe his identity as a dreamer, if he's like, if my dream is real, if I'm actually a dreamer, then I'm still a legitimate Targaryen in some way, even if I'm not a dragon rider.

And so that's like, that's something that I was thinking about as he was talking about this. But like throughout it all, and this is key to Vassaris's personality is this uncertainty. What if I was wrong to name Reneer? He says, what if I was wrong? And there's five different ways you could read that. What if I was wrong about the dream? What if I was wrong about what I did with Emma? What if I was wrong about Reneura?

And it's constantly the space that he lives in. The space between two stabbings of a stag, basically. It's just sort of like, I don't know what to do. What do I do here? I don't know. Mel, what do you think? Did I miss anything on the dream front? No, I think that was a beautiful and apt read and summation.

I was struck as well by his framing. of many in my line have been dragon riders. Very few among us have been dreamers. What is the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy? And that that would be not only, as you're saying, a way to latch on to this sense of stature and purpose as a Targaryan and a Targaryen and a Targaryen and a Targaryen. But after Balaerian died and he no longer had a dragon, but actually as a superior Targaryen, as something even rarer. And the state of... setting that that establishes and how that helps to fuel one of our favorite themes to track in stories and discuss, Joe, this idea of like self-fulfilling prophecies and the weight

of a prophecy and what can be lost in the pursuit of it. And that's why it's so interesting to hear him say, you know, my obsession killed Rainer's mother and the way that his guilt and his doubt are so inextricable from his desire. That is a really fascinating brew of motivation and purpose for his character. And I think it connects to a lot of what happens just inside of this specific episode with the stag and all of this discussion among many characters of portents

and being blessed by the gods. This sense of some sort of omen and a harbinger for his reign, his line is ever present for his character. Yeah, I, you know, it was interesting to watch Vseris try to break down what his dream meant as he was talking about it to Allison and then watch,

And Joe, you mentioned that she's somewhat inscrutable. I would agree. I mean, I was kind of putting myself in her shoes where I was like, well, on one hand, what does this mean for my son? On one hand, what does this mean for my husband? And on one hand, what does this mean for my once best friend? You know, and what do I want out of any of those three options? You know, is this the Sarah saying, look like I may have called the shot with Reniro,

but like the truth is that like now I have a son. son and that would fulfill this dream that I had. And like Targaryens are usually right to listen to their dreams because that's exactly how we like saved this family in the first place and set up this dynasty. And on the other hand, if you're, if you're Allison, you're like, I mean, I mean, she later has that conversation with Otto where she's like, what, what mother wouldn't want her son to be king? But she doesn't actually even seem to believe it when she's talking to him. Like he's like, don't you want your son to be king? And she's like, sure, what mother wouldn't? And it's like, well, what mother would? I mean, it seems like, well, what mother would?

I mean, it seems like it's a pretty hard job. And she's seeing firsthand what it's doing to Vassaris, he's essentially decaying in front of her, both emotionally or, you know, psychologically, but also physically. I just thought it was like a really cool scene. And they really loved to have these important talks in front of fire, whether it's candles or bonfires. Targaryens love their fire.

I thought that the imagery was beautiful. And Mallory, just to jump to another vision, I thought, almost like it wasn't a vision in terms of its description, oh, this is like a dream I had, but I thought that that shot of Runeira standing on her horse, sitting on her horse at this sort of cliff's edge almost,

blood all over her hair. It felt like that was a baptism of some, or like a graduation of some kind. And like she sort of had moved into a new kind of era of her life. She's standing, she's looking over this essentially

like this center of power where all these people have gathered to decide all these things. And she looks over and sees this mythical creature that is supposed to be the subject of this hunt. Can you help me unpack the importance of that message? Because I feel like Gregory Tanis, the director, definitely wanted us to think, hey, take a second here and look at both the beauty and the importance of this moment. Yeah, absolutely. I think this is crucial to assessing Reneira's state of mind. in the dynamics among the characters.

I love the way that you set it up as a baptism for a few reasons. You know, the fire and blood language house words of house Targaryen, but also the way that Reneura throughout the episode is cast apart. And she voices this like in really devastating fashion multiple times, nobody's here for me. Yeah. She feels that everybody has moved on, both inside of her family and in the realm at large.

and to contrast the, in essence, play acting that is going on with Vassaris and the hunt, whereas you noted you have all of the, not only the huntsman, but all of these other men of the realm, almost like securing the stage setting that he needs to strike this ultimately like farcical blow. And I think we should talk more about the Vassaris aspect of this in a second. And that blood is on Rainira because she, and obviously Kristen strikes the initial blow with the sword, but she takes that dagger and drives it into the bore time and time again. And again, we have this like passive, active point of contrast with Renera and Vassaris. But then within that, you have this real interesting dissonance and nuance for Renera herself.

Because the decision to let the white stag go is, I think, a sign of real restraint. But it doesn't, to me, signal that she has moved on from her willful nature. We hear Vassaris in this episode call her a heedless contrarian, which is now a turn of phrase I will be adopting in my own life. I thought that was so funny. It's a decision that she makes in a way out of despair, but also out of wisdom, because she could strike that creature down and bring it to camp and say, you all doubted me. But look, I was the one the Whiteheart appeared for. I was the one who slayed it. She's not interested in playing the high lord's games.

This degree of standing above them and observing from afar that you noted, Chris, I think, is really crucial. And if we pan back even further and just look at the symbol of the stag, I think it's important to talk about that for a second, both across folklore, religion, storytelling and mass, but also inside of Thrones lore, because of course the stag is the sigil of house. Barathean. I think it's worth noting that one of the earliest, the earliest times we as readers and viewers come across the stag is the symbolism of the antler in the dire wolf, this idea of wolf and stag tearing each other down. Like the appearance of the stag of an animal in this text is often symbolic in terms of like what sign we are supposed to glean what it might mean for the characters in their future. It's certainly not accidental. There's a real pattern there. The hunt that King Robert died on when the boar claimed him, he set out in pursuit of a white heart, of the white stag,

this king of the king's wood, as we hear the huntsman say in this episode. This is a symbol of transformation, of course, strength, vitality, regeneration, rebirth, but the white stag in particular, this aspect of purity, but also this herald of a quest, that's a really exciting thing inside of a fantasy story when you see that. And so what does it mean to have the restraint to not pursue? That is such a distinction for Renera compared to the other characters. The entire time they're trying to set up this scenario, which Vassaris can easily kill this deck. They're like, we've trapped it, we've cornered it, we're going to tie it down. All you have to do is show up, use the ceremonial Lannister spear, you know, all this stuff. And she just

finds it. She's got, she's got like, it finds her. Yeah, and it finds her. So, Joe, I mean, did you think that that had, should I be, like, putting a lot on that, just to the fact that they've, this thing that's essentially, like, fixed and orchestrated, but for Rainira, it's like, it just comes naturally. I would. I, you know, I would say, I would say that that annoys her as some sort of more natural leader. But I think, you know, to yes, Ann Mallory's point, I think if you look at how Vassaris

approaches a kill, how Rineira approaches. approaches a kill and how Damon approaches a kill in this episode. Like, these are the three approaches that they're asking us to compare and contrast. And I think with Vassaris and Reneer specifically, it's like Viseris, this is killing for sport. And it's so clear, you know, especially the way that they tie that stag down. It's for sport and it's clumsily done. She's only killing when she, she will kill if she has to for survival. Right.

But she's not going to kill for sports. She said before the hunt, she doesn't even want to go on the hunt. She doesn't like the sound that Boers made. when they die, it sounds like children screaming. She's like, I'm not interested. The cut from that to Agon's squealing. It's so funny. Shout out the royal nanny in this episode, by the way, who was like, oh, my God.

But, yeah, the, I think that contrast is really interesting. And then when we get to Step Zones later, I guess we can talk about. But Damon's main killing happens off screen, which I think is really wild in this episode. We'll address that. Yeah. I think, like, the lines that we hear from Otto, your grace, but if the gods did wish to show their favor. It's just openly discussed across this episode that the white heart is a symbol to bless Agon on his name day, to bless him as the chosen one. And it doesn't show up for him and it

doesn't show up for Viseris. It shows up for Reneira. I was curious to ask you both how you read Viseris' response to seeing the brown stag. That it may not be white your grace, but he's a big lad. And this real crestfallen response. Now, obviously, our guy is multiple flag. deep at this point and has had himself quite a stretch. He's having he's having an experience on the hunt and he's not in a cheerful mood. He

if we tie this into the earlier discussion about the dreamer and the way that he thinks about signs importance, did you read this as okay this is another sign that did not

pan out the way that I or others thought it would, that did not bear the fruit I had come to expect or expector was hoping for. Or did you read it as perhaps relief that the stag had not come to bless Agon because he would have then lost control even more of the ability to fend off the you must name him your heir pursuits of auto, Jason, etc. Have I been really? honest, I read it as wine exhaustion, but I will definitely go back and rewatch it to look for the nuances and Patty's performance. I read it as this being King sucks. You know, and that all day long, I've got people in my ear trying to tell me who my daughter should marry, who my son should marry, what I should do with this, that or the other thing, how I should relate to my brother, what I should do about this war and the stepstones that I didn't want in the first place. Now I have to go on this fucking hunt. They can't even find the right deer. This one's tied down and it's kind of pathetic because I've got to take this guy's

spear who's just a blowhard and I'm like, okay, dude, thanks for the spear. And now I have to go sadly kill this beast who is like standing there. And he's like, I think in terms of his own virility and his own like life expectancy, he's like, I can't even kill a tied down stag right. Right. It took me two tries and the guy had to be like, try over the left a little bit. Yeah. So in general, I think when he finally says to Lionel at that point where he's just like, let me guess you want, you want Renier to marry your son, right? Like, what is?

And he's like, no, I gave you advice and you didn't take it. It's like that breaking point where he's like, being king is kind of the worst. So that was my read on that whole thing. Yeah, I think that that's, that, the smaller aspect of how he's reading the symbolism of it, I was, I was curious about.

But I think broadly, that's absolutely true. There was something so pathetic. about the entire scene, the way they clap for him as he walked away. Peak embarrassment was the clapping. Peak embarrassment. Aw-my God. And like we see later when he and Allison, or in his chambers talking about the Stepstone's letter,

the two fingers, gone. This happened off-screen in the massive three-year time jump between episodes. These pieces of the Sarahs are falling away over time and how much is there for him to hold on to. And to your point, Chris, I think that connects really nicely to that. that back and forth he had with Jason Lannister and how absolutely offended he was by the gall of this blonde lion

coming to him and talking about enhancing his strength. It's like, frankly, how dare you? But then later, in privacy with Renira, it's like, go shirt up. We have to think about how we can be strong. Last episode he talked about the vulnerability of the line. So that ease constantly on his mind. He just can't allow other people to see it.

Joe, speaking of vulnerability, I think I needed a stepstones. A little help here. Yeah. So not only like do I, I really want to talk about like the mechanics of that battle scene, which I think were, if I may say so, about like 80% successful as like the way it was depicted on screen. Like it was certainly cool. The vibe was there. There was some great shots.

I thought Matt Smith was cool. I was also like, how did all these guys, like, where was the conversation about like, here's what I'm going to do. You guys follow me. I know that was sort of the plan. I didn't know who was on the dragon for a minute. So I have some questions about that, but just in general, it's been three years. I thought it was funny that Vassaris is like, it's been three years.

I think we can wait one more day, like, you know, for me to help him. And I guess I'm curious about, like, what is the fight about? Like, who is crab feeder, like, working for? Like, what is crab feeder trying to get out of this pretty craggly group of rocks out there? Yeah, I mean, mainly the, it's a question of location, location, location, right? That the stepstones are in the way of the trade route. And that if you take the stepstones, which the triarchy, which we talked about last week, like a collection of three free cities, if they take the stepstones, they can, it's sort of like

monopoly, they can then tax all the ships that come, you know, past the stepstones, right? So they're, at first they're just taxing the ships and that's fine. And then they start doing some bullshit. And what we hear from like the ladies, mid-sentence, the ladies who are gathered in the hunting tent, you just barely hear them say something about Lady Joanna Swan. And this is a lady, a highborn woman who is snatched off one of these ships by the crab feeder and his people and made to work in a pillow house. basically sex traded over into ESOS, you know.

And so it started with taxation. Now it's become outright piracy. And so I don't think they're interested in encroaching on Westeros anytime soon. They're not going to fight the dragonlords on their own turf. But they're like, this little spot we can squeeze. And Corliss, who is his fortunes built on trade, Corliss is like, this is not for me. So it's not how right like a rebellion against the target.

garians necessarily. It's just like we want these shipping lanes. It's, and we're kind of interested being pirates. It's an affront. Yeah, it's an affront. Certainly. Yeah. This episode is brought to by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borishead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it. Presenting the friar's turkey breast only from Borershead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Borset committed to craft since 1905.

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Should we just talk about this whole stepstone situation in the entirety now? Okay. Yeah. You're a big crab feeder guy. So how are you feeling? You had to say goodbye so soon. Bumbed out.

Bumbed out. Without a word. Yeah. Just a rapidly spreading gray scale. He obviously has gray scale. He's got the complete devotion of his men. So I imagine there's some inspiring speeches

somewhere in there? Or like what's the sort of like payoff there for guys working for the crab feeder? It's not it's not like, well, you know, I just love my boss. I would do anything for him, you know? I'll be curious to see, you know, we're recording this obviously before the episode drops.

I'll be really curious to see how people respond to the abrupt end of the crab feeder and like the stepstones, you know, wrapping up is the way it feels like it is. Release the crab feeder cut. I think that's about to start trending. But I think that we can lay some of this on like on marketing, marketing, ramping up expectations.

And every trailer, the crab feeder looks cool. So in every trailer we see the crab feeder. And I think, again, to the early question of like spectacle versus conversations, maybe they felt like they needed a battle episode early. This is Miguel Sopachnik is at least in the first season, kosher running the show. He's a battle episode, fame battle episode guy. They're like, we got dragons. let's show them what dragons can do. And so I feel like the stepstones

was sort of amped up in a way. There's this line in fire and blood that George R. Martin's writes, it's not our purpose here to recount the details of the private war, Damon Targary and Corlis Valerian waged on the stepstones. So there are no details.

That's it. It's like a paragraph. So isn't this almost a mile, a microcosm of like what happens when you go off book? Kind of a little bit? I thought that the battle scene here had a little bit of the mechanics

of some late Thrones battle scenes where you were just like, oh, so you guys were right behind him. Okay. You know, like... Well, I think on the one hand, it's of a piece with the opportunity of adapting fire and blood

because there's a lot of room to explore and expand. I do think that, as Joe said, if you have read Fire and Blood, it was a little strange and surprising in the early episodes to see him propped up as a figure of consequence, because that's just not how it bears out. I mean, he's killed by Damon.

Shout out that close-up shot of Dark Sister that we got in this episode with the winged, the dragon wings is the hill. Incredible stuff. The death occurring off screen is such a bummer to me, but there's barely any more detail in the book. The line is, in 108 AC, when at last he came face to face with Kragas crab feeder, he slew him single-handed and cut off

his head with Dark Sister. So that's it. I think that for me, more of the timeline confusion about the battle and the War of the Stepstone, the War for the Stepstone specifically was like where I felt a little out of sync inside of the episode. And, you know, we talked last week about how will people hang with the jumps between episodes? And this is obviously a much larger one than the one, the six months. between episodes one and two, going three years is no joke.

And I felt like, oh, man, the stuff we're getting in this episode, like all of the stuff in Kings Landing, which accounts for, in essence, 45 minutes of this episode. It's the bulk of it. I loved. I thought it was fantastic. But I still couldn't help but think, boy, I would have loved to see Reneira's face at Vassaris and Allison's wedding. Those are the moments that we're missing and that we just are not.

What was their first conversation? Exactly. Has Reneer ever asked Allison, what the hell? Or she's just been listening to that guy play the same song by the tree for like three years. Samwell, crushing it. Grushing it out there in the godswood. That one Nimeria song on repeat for three years. Play a new slang again.

I love that one. Go put it back. Not into the shuffle feature out under the shade of the wearwood. But, you know, in Thrones so much of the really compelling. stuff that we love comes from seeing the fallout, the immediate fallout and consequences of how characters have to contend with the decisions that they've made. With the stepstones, it was just like, what exactly has happened when? And I would say that Lenore Valerian and Seasmoke is emblematic of this to me, because on the one hand, it's really cool to see Lenore

as a Dragon Rider. It's awesome to see Seasmoke. Chris, I'm sure you, a scholar of dragon lore and aesthetics, you're like, here's a third dragon, a new one. A new dragon. I got that they were related. I definitely found that whole sequence confusing and was like, I didn't know that this dude could ride a dragon. Well, so that's what I was going to say,

because I, you know, we hear dragons plural multiple times throughout the episode. We hear it from Thailand when he's recounting the crisis to Vassaris. We hear it at the war council down in the stepstones from the sea snake. from Lenore. So it's clear there's more than one dragon already in the mix, but like I want to see him claim Seasmoke. I want to see their bond. I want to know that he's a dragon rider. Now I go back to episode two in my mind and think of Reneura's line about, you know, send us. You have dragon

riders. Right. Was was Lenore and Seasmoke in the mix then? We don't know. We know from book canon that as far back as the great council in 101 AC, he had already bonded with and paired with, sea smoke and it was a part of his claim, he just hadn't ridden him yet. Now, the timeline for those characters has all changed drastically. Those are the sorts of things that I want to have definitively established for us in the show. I also leave this, this episodes, and I'm just like, does Damon have gray scale now because he's holding the craft theaters and is covered in his blood? So that's concerning to me. I have a lot of questions about that. But like just from a TV watching, like not even from a lore perspective, from a TV watching perspective, if I'm watching a

battle episode. In this battle, we've got Damon, who theoretically we care whether he lives or dies. We've got Corlis, great. We've got his brother, Veymond Valerian, who we've literally only barely just met. And he's just popping off. He's just like, I just disagree with everything going on here. Yeah. I will say, I think it supports Mallory's idea last week that, like, that felt like younger brother energy to me, younger brother, older brother. So when last week, Corlis Valerian says, we are second sons, to Mallory's point, that he was speaking metaphorically, not literally. But, and then his son, Lenore, who, again, we saw a younger actor play him at the tourney.

We literally saw him. They talk about him a bit in this episode as, you know, prospective suitor, et cetera. But we don't know him at all. And so those are the three people I'm supposed to be invested in in this battle. And for a successful battle, like if you think about Miguel Sopachnix, I think most successful battle episode, which is Hard Home, they did work in that episode to get me to care about

complete randos, complete rando wildlings, only to then quickly kill them off, but I cared that they died because I met them and I got to know them. And I would have loved a little bit more emotional buy-in on someone like Lenore,

so I care that he's gonna be okay. He's doing this. I also just think we're supposed to really buy-in to Damon and Corliss. We care about them as characters. we're supposed to think that they're badasses. They can't figure out how to get this guy out of the cave until Vassaris's letter incites this.

You will not rescue me. I wanted your attention, but I won't let you be the one who saves me. That was what I was going to ask is, like, Damon's reaction to that letter, do you think that he's learning to just be like, if I can't inspire these people, I'm going to scare them? So when they send help, I'm going to beat this guy to death.

and then go do it myself? Like, I mean, is this like, is this for theater? Or is it because he can't control his temper? That felt like a temper tantrum. Poor, I mean, it certainly did. Yeah, Porcer Allen. How did you both as huge Damon fans feel about him putting up a white flag and then killing everyone? Are we in full-on Waldreferrae, rat cook violating guest rights territory with our guy,

Damon Tucker? Is there what you forget? Is there a lot of, like, rules and regulations when you're... Yeah. Wow. So that's how your moral compass goes. If you're wearing someone else's face on your face, I think that like you can, all bets are off. Wave as many flags as you want at this guy. Okay.

Well, I think, you know, to what you just said, Mallory, which makes me think of the great Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul line, you don't save me, I save me sort of thing. Like, that's the vibe coming off. Damon. It's also the vibe coming off of Rainira. Thanks for the stab of the bore, Kristen Cole. I'll take it from here. man, you know, and I think there's a lot, in terms of the step zones, I think the main takeaways from what we saw here are like, A, how impractical and imprecise dragon battle is. We get that from the guy at the beginning who's like, yay, my prince is here to save me, and then he gets fucking wrecked, stepped on by a dragon. That was iconic.

Fabulous, right? So like, so dragon battle, not very precise, can take out the very people who you're theoretically trying to save, number one. classic Targaryen number. Now I need to see Damon in a Kim Waxler ponytail. Like, I just, someone out there has to do it for us. I think he could rock it. I really do.

With a curly key right in there? Love that. And then also, like, the fact that they both, you know, you're talking about blonde wigs needing blood rinse out of them, both Damon and Raniera wind up spattered in blood. And I think it's just we're supposed to understand this affinity between uncle and niece. once again, just as we got at Dragonstone last week, this sort of parallel between those two characters. I definitely felt like, you know,

I think we could cycle back, because you mentioned Renira a little bit. The dating game is really going, like Raya is really rocking for her this episode. Why don't we jump in with two feet and just talk a little bit about Otto trying to hook her up with a two-year-old, who was also her half-brother.

I'm just going to say this. Sure. This is in the running for the funniest scene. in the history of Game of Thrones. I was cackling so hard. I almost broke a rib. This was so fantastically acted. The way that Otto initially leans in conspiratorily

when he's about to reveal his big plan, and then the pause, the near minute of silence from Vassaris as he is trying to glean whether Otto is serious. And then the way that he looks over and we see Agon just, wailing on the floor. It was absolutely prices. And then he actually laughs out loud. He actually laughs out loud.

He's just so shocked by this. Even in the context of the Targaryans, wedding brother and sister, even in the context of the Sarah strolling through the gardens last week with a 12-year-old. This is so astounding that the king

cackles aloud in the face of his hand. And I was cackling with him. That's amazing. Patty completely crushing this episode. Every opportunity. So good in this episode. So good. My favorite piece of acting in this episode

and the thing that I really like, it took me about 20 minutes after it ended to kind of get through all my feelings on it is whether or not it's the first time re-cyphins has ever clapped. I don't know if you guys noticed that. Oh my God. I need to rewatch it immediately.

But when he, when Vissaris arrives at the like feast part, I'm just going to, you guys can't see it if you're listening on the pod, but like this is how he claps. He's got like, like a like a loud golf clap. It's like he's got a prosthetic left hand and he's just like, I can just hit it. And that's kind of like clapping. But I mean, he's Welsh. I'm sure he's cheered for stuff before. But like, you know, it was wild. I wonder what the direction was.

I got a little far afield. I have a question for you, Chris. Say your own Raya. I love my wife, by the way. Happily married. But go ahead. And a profile pops up. And the first line of the profile is,

I'd do anything for my queen or lady wife. How are you swiping on Jason Lanister? For me personally? Yeah, yeah. Would that work on you? I mean, I think that guy has a really nice house, you know? Yeah. I mean, Castlery Rock seems pretty cool, right?

And he's got spears everywhere. He knows that I throw a party. Is that his setup out there? Is he kind of like, I'm hosting? I mean, that was the implication. He straight up had a matri-D with, like, champagne waiting for people when they were walking around. Like honey wine.

Which when your true face indicates to me that tasted like shit, by the way. I think so because earlier in the episode, Sir Lionel's like Sir Jason, like Lord Jason is waiting for. for us to assemble here. So I do think Jason through that party. I thought it was cool. You know, like bonfire, a lot of bore, yeah. Plenty of wine.

It almost looked like they had central air. Like, it was a pretty nice setup. And if you wanted to, like, leave and go do your own thing, you could always take Sir Kristen and go camping if you wanted to. So I would have been pretty into Jason. Speaking of Kristen Cole and Raya, Maui Rupert, would Kristen Cole be allowed on Raya? That's the question.

Yeah. So, Chris, I know, I know you're invested in, in Kristen's betrothal prospects, especially after hearing him say to Reneer, I had an adventurous youth, a k.a. I had a ton of sex. A ton of sex. Why, is he supposed to be a virgin if he's going to marry Reneer? No, one is surprised.

No, he is a sworn knight of the King's Guard now, which means that he has taken vows. He cannot marry. He cannot marry. fathered children. So I'm sorry to break your heart here. Well, I mean, but this is a world where like two twins jam it out every night. Like we can't just break the Kingsguard vows. A two-year-old versus someone who's had a vow of Chasty. I have questions. What I will say is no one would formally propose this as a possibility.

I really hope this is not the breakout segment, by the way. Yeah, that's the headline. Two twins jamming it out. Yeah. It's definitely what we're going to run with. But I think also, like, before that, like, you know, what he says after he talks about all the fucking that he does as a youth is like, I would have ever been able, I was never high enough for a formal betrothal. So, like, even, you know, even if he weren't sworn to the Kingsguard, he's too, way too lowborn. Right. He's like, he's like, just doing. Yeah. Desirest does say. All your heart. I'm, I'm bull in for those two. I don't know.

Find the one that pleases you. Yes. As I did. What a, what a future that sets up. Your mom. You're your best friend who's 17 now. I love that when he was talking about Emma and how she made him a man. And again, we've already mentioned how well acted this episode was. But every time he talks about Emma, the absolute despair that is emanating from him is just so, so sad. Oh, should we talk about some of the other suitors, though? Because that's not it. We have to talk about Lionel Strong coming in again with his unencumbered opinion.

Lionel is like so clutch. I don't know why Vassaris is like, oh, yeah, Otto is really just such wise counsel. Like, Lionel, every time he's nice, he's right. And he's like, you're the king, though, so you make the call, you know? He's very steady and wise. I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that he was the biggest proponent of we will absolutely not even consider the idea of a woman on the Iron Throne in episode one. Okay.

Let us protect the patriarchy and the sacredly. law of the land and also was the one who said famously, infamously, she will mature. I was not nominating him for a Kennedy Center honors. Sounds like you. As those guys go, I enjoy his time. He's measured and thoughtful, and he's one of the people who, especially as, you know, Viseras voices in this episode with that fucking politicking line, he is so frustrated. He says later to Allison, he feels like he's doomed to forever anger, one person in pursuit of

making another person happy, which, frankly, the fact that he's worried about that at all is an indictment and part of why he's not fit for this role. That's not something that you can think about or worry about if you're king. You have to have the conviction of your decisions. But it is on his mind. And so many people are trying to maneuver him. It was interesting and cool to see him push back a little bit on Otto in this episode. But with Lionel, he does seem to have this sense that he is getting impartial sound advice. Now, there's no such thing really in the realm as impartial, but I liked that, like, the setup for that exchange was Vassaris saying,

let me guess, your son, Harwin, breakbones, you think he's the one? Because that's just what he's expecting from everyone now. And so for Lionel to be able to say no was a refreshing thing for Vassaris. And he had that little shoulder tap, you know, a tap of the chest. Wait, Harwin's not the guy with the foot though, right? That's Laris. That's Laris Club foot, his other son. That's Joanna's favorite strong boy is Laris.

Let's hear about Laris. What's up with him? So, yeah. So there's Lionel Strong. These are the Strongs of Harren Hall, right? So there's Lionel Strong. His older son Harwin, Breakbones, Strong. It's the strongest man.

And then Laris. Break bones. Have you ever heard a cooler nickname, Chris? Thanks, George. And then Laris. Who we see sort of sit down with the ladies and say he's not made for the hunt. But the thing, the thing about Laris is that

he loves to listen. He loves, if you've been waiting for a schemer and a plotter that's maybe levels above Auto High Tower, just watch the way Laris strong nibbles on a like cookie as he watches the dynamic between

Reneera and Allison. Loves the hot gas. He's looking, he's listening. This is the thing is that like this show is throwing so many characters at us right now. And, you know, we're moving through time so quickly. We only have a few episodes left, really, with these characters as this, in this vizage.

It's, it is like a little bit of a challenge without having like a ton of background with the story or knowing these characters or what their histories and their futures are to kind of keep everybody's street, but also to know that guy's important. This person's not important. This person's going to be a, this person sticking around,

whatever. I mean, it is, it is, I think they're trying to seed them in. Like, I think, you know, Mallory and I are all hyped up about these people, but I think it's okay if you just barely register that they were in this episode because, like, you know, miles to go or whatever. But I guess that's why you want to listen to a three-hour deep dive on the ring or verse from Mallory and Joanna if you want to.

But if you're watching more casually, I think it's just fine to, you know, barely clock that they're here and then see where we go from there. I think also, though, we do want to mention Jason's twin brother, Thailand, Lannister. The Lannister love their twins. By the way, the actor playing both Jason and Thailand. Sir Hugh. Yeah.

Sir Hugh of the Vale from Game of Thrones. Unbelievable. But it's the same actor playing both. Thailand is now on the small council and he's master ships, which means Corliss quit at the end of last week's episode when he stormed out of there. That was a, I quit. And so Thailand has replaced him on the small council. Okay.

Right. So. And I think two, two. to the, just the vast sea of people we're meeting, it can be helpful to look for the connections between character and larger plot threads. So if we take a character like Lenore Valerian, for example, who we are exposed to a couple,

in a couple different ways in this episode, both of those give us something to latch onto. He is one of the presented suitors. He is the one who Lionel Strong makes the case for to Vassaris, saying, in essence, I outlined for you last time why you should marry, Corliss's daughter. I make the same case now for their son. That's the match for Reneira. Reach this divide between your houses. So we have this connection to House Valerian and

the relationship between House Targaryen and House Valerian. Then we see him at the stepstones, but he's a dragon rider. Renees, Targaryen, Targaryen blood in this family. Now he can ride a dragon too. House Valerian, Dragon riding. This is an amazing thing. So there are these ways to latch on to these larger through lines of the story that I think can be like helpful, orienting principles. I obviously haven't seen any more of this show than we're talking about right now, but I do feel like the death of the crab feeder spectacularly. So marks the end of a little bit of an era of this.

And they have to do so much world building, family planning, showing us these people who are going to be with throughout their lives, really. that, you know, I just wonder whether or not, at this point, I am craving getting Matt Smith back into the mix, right? Like, he is by far my favorite part of the show. I think he's giving an awesome performance. It's physical. It's charming. It's scary.

It's everything you want from one of these characters. And I would love to integrate him back into Gen Pop. Get him back in Kings Landing, get him back interacting with people, chatting with his cousins, whatever it is. that's my wish. Sharing their tips for getting blood out of their blonde hair. Yeah, right. It's actually just baby shampoo. You'd be surprised.

It just does miracles. No tears. No tears. Any other closing thoughts before we piece out on this third episode. I just want to shout out in terms of maneuverers in this episode. You mentioned, like, Alicent and her suggestions to Vassaris and how that, you know, her gentle maneuvering of him. I want to shout at just one moment that I really love.

came early in the episode as we think about Allison and how she's observing and managing things is Thailand, Thailand, Lannister, the shorter-haired twin, is coming at Vassaris with the stepstone stuff. Vassaris does not want to hear it. He's just at the buffet, slap him food on his plate. He's like, don't bother me, I'm eating. And Allison gives Thailand this little, like, tiny shake of the head of like, nah, not right now.

Yeah, yeah. And then he keeps going. But it's just this tiny, like, she knows her husband very well. she knows the game very well, as we already saw. I don't, like, she's very supportive of Renera in this episode. I don't think she's, like, playing the game hardcore, but she knows the rules and she knows how this all works, you know? Yeah, it was really interesting to hear her say to her father.

Not only is this how you want me to really raise my son to steal his sister's birthright, but to say Reniro would be a good queen. And you have these little moments where we learn it's clear that she knew about the, plan to wed Jason Lannister to Reneira, and of course didn't tell her. They're not on speaking terms, but it's one more thing. We're like, oh, could someone have tried to offer up this very specific information? Vesaris, one of the eruptions that he has to Reneira is, I've been trying to talk to you about this and you won't let me.

But then because of what we seen from Vassaris before, we're like, but what did you're trying look like, really? But to the Allison point, yeah, the amount of information that she has right now is so interesting and our read on every facial expression, everything she says, the way that she guided Viseras, so many people implore him to help in the stepstones and he won't. She's the one. She is the one who convinces him. And so that's a really interesting data point to keep in mind when we think about her at large in the story. And I thought that House High Tower at large was fascinating in this episode because we have chatted a lot through three weeks about the way that

Otto is maneuvering Allison as a pawn in his game and deploying her to accept Vassaris and get Viseris to behave the way that they want. And that happens here too. He says, you must guide Viseris toward reason. He'll never find it on his own. But what do we see before that? We see Otto experiencing his own version of that where his brother, Hobart Hightower, does the same thing to him. He tells him that he needs to be the one to guide Viseris to naming Agon as heir because this is, of course, what House High Tower wants for... Oh, that was his brother in the first scene? Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. We saw him swear an oath to Renier in the first episode. He's the first, like, we talked about how Hot High Tower. He's got a weird name tags. I swear, you know? They've got their sigils on there. I would have recognized him if maybe he did the High Tower clap.

Yes. The old... Well, Chris. The old one. It's funny that you mentioned that because the other thing I was going to note about him, I was really struck by this. when they are coming out of the carriage, the carriage that is 50 times larger inside

than from the outside that they're all comfortably piled into. The TARDIS. Yeah. What does he say? They're all clapping. He says, hail, hail. Egon the conqueror babe, second of his name.

And he is clapping and cheering, leading this clap and cheer. Here's to his grace on a second name day. Joe, I'm wondering if you were as struck by this or if I'm overthinking it. Second of his name when he is not actually. ruling is shocking. That is a shocking thing to say out loud. It's the name of the episode. Second of his name is the name of the episode. So yeah, like that's a wild, that's like he might have

well said, King, Agon. Exactly. That's what he was saying. You reserve the naming, the, you know, the second second of his name, et cetera, for when you were formally in that position and he is not. So the gall, to say that aloud in the king's presence and for all to hear was astonishing and I think a real declaration of House High Towers and tensions. And it's like, okay, maybe they're just treating that kind of stuff differently in the show. But I don't think so because Condal is so beholden to the rules of Georgia's realm. And, you know, if every Agon actually just got to be second, third, et cetera, then we'd have a whole different number.

By the time we got to John, we'd have 500. We got me uncrowned erasure from the story. So that can't happen. I doubt he's like, what this story needs is like my revisions to Georgia's stuff. Let's wrap it up there. I thought this was a wonderful conversation. I learned so much. We talked about clapping and dating,

which is two of my favorite subjects. We'll be back next Sunday for episode four, right? I think, everybody. And until then, make sure you're listening to the Ringerverse podcast where you can find House of R doing a deep dive on Tuesdays. What was the runtime in the last one? You broke three, right?

Yeah. Don't worry about it. Greenwald and I will be discussing this later in the week on the watch, but I think, Mallory, you're joining me on the watch this week. I cannot wait. one of the honors of my We're sad Joe. We'll be there, but we're

We'll talk a little bit about Lord of the Rings, a little bit about the House of the Dragon, a little bit about industry maybe. But people who want to hear more from Joe, they get to because trial by content on Thursdays, Joe, Neil and Dave send your mailbag, send your ravens. There we go. You can't escape us,

but, you know, we're pleasant enough people, so don't worry about it. Thank you to Mike for producing us today. We will be back next Sunday. Keep it real. Feels like every product claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source.

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