The Ringer-Verse - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 5 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: September 19, 2022

It's weddings, murder, and scandal as Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson give their instant reactions to the fifth episode of 'House of the Dragon.' Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I have some good news for you. The hottest take. It's back. Oh yeah. Monday through Thursday, four times a week you hear from me. Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy, Mallor Rubin, Wazdine Lambray, Van Lathan, June Lippman. Many other ringer staffers. You get one take. You got a defendant to the death. Sports takes. Pop culture takes. Food takes. Airplane takes. Oh yeah. It's coming back. First episode drops. August 29th. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matter. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com.

Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two active. Octavia yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. Hello, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me this week as always is Ringer Senior Staff. Half writer Joanna Robinson, along with a woman who can't possibly be as bad of a wedding guest

as Damon Targary. And it's Mallory Rubin. What's up, everybody? Mallory, I think that's a challenge. No, I've actually been to weddings with Mal and she's absolutely delightful. I'm pretty mellow at a wedding, you know? You? You're just, you're just a basket of sunshine, no matter where you are. I just sit there and I say to everyone after tonight's small affair, seven days of tournaments and feasting, you know? It's a promise of what's to come, always. What about Chris at a wedding? What's that like, Mallory? Chris is a great time. Yeah. I'd recommend everybody attend a wedding with Chris, and I'd recommend everybody watch Chris perform karaoke. Sublime. We are not here to talk about my karaoke. We're here to talk about the fifth episode of House of the Dragon titled,

We Light the Way or Better Yet, Royal Weddings Gone Wrong. First off, for the two of you, thoughts and emotions after this episode that saw the union of Lainor Valer Vlarian and Princess Renera Targaryen. Maljo, what was the most important thing to happen in this episode? Allison's fashion choice, I think. What do you think, Mallory? I agree. Allison's showing up in the House Hide Tower has called the banners to war bright green, stealing the thunder from her, quote, stepdaughter Renira, her ailing husband

the king, whose crown will shortly tumble off his head and House Valerian in full and marching down the hall for all to see in that bright green jess. What's that called, is that called your color story? What is that, is that like the thing? Isn't there a thing like on Instagram where people are like, this is my color story or something? Is that what was basically Allison was kicking? I love to hear that you're an Instagram girl, Chris. I don't, I genuinely don't know the answer to this. I don't maybe, I'm probably remembering it wrong. But I guess that was obviously this huge thing. She's wearing the color of the banners when the high towers go to war, right?

And she shows up 30 minutes late, interrupts of Sarah's big speech, walks in, all eyes on her. Do all major families in Westrose have a, I'm going to war dress? Or is it just, is it just the high towers? So my impression of what happened there is that the lovely creators of the show decided that Harwin and Lerner, is strong, the strong boys. We're going to play the role of Mallory and Joanna and, like, give some extra contextual commentary on her entrance here. And so, I mean, what's really true is that green is just house high tellers color. Like, that's just their color. The calling the banners to war part is sort of a laris, laris embellishment to what's going on there. But it's still,

she's making a statement. The later rival is definitely part of it. And then, like, earlier in the episode, when Viseris is getting his, like, crumbling body attended. to, and he says, where's the queen? And Lionel says, you know, it's my understanding she's otherwise occupied. Like, that's unheard of before Allison would come any time the king beckon. So she's, you know, she's making moves,

making choices saying no, saying yes, on her timetable now. Always ready with a lufa when he's taking a bath. It's a nice sponge bath. She had seen him collapse from her perch on the battlements and still chose to go beat with Kristen instead. This episode is called We Light the Way.

Those are the house words of house high So you couple that episode name with the fashion statement, the conversation between Allison and Hobart, House High Tower rising and greeting as she walked past the first rise, all of these little things. This is a big House High Tower declaration of intent episode. And obviously there's a fascinating exchange between Otto and his daughter as he's hitting the road in the downport, just an open horseback. Couldn't even get a carriage. Tough stuff for our guy Otto High Tower there. House High Tower kids sent like an SUV or something. Yeah, he got locked out of his email. immediately and didn't even get like,

we're going to send you your shit in the box, yeah, seriously. Tony from HR is going to walk you to the door. He's got a pamphlet for you. A lot of other things happen in this episode. Shall I recap them? Let's do it. Okay.

This episode starts with Dame murdering a woman. Shout out to Damon Targaryen. Every time you think you get to the basement with this dude, he finds another sub-level. Damant Tardarian startles his wife's horse

and then bludgeoned her to death with a rock. Two questions. Who was this woman? And is her death off-screen going to go right into the Stanis Barathean is still a live Hall of Fame of Game of Thrones takes because we just didn't see the actual deed being done? We can put a pin in both of those things

because I want to talk about Damon in a bit. Later on on his way out the door, Otto explains to his daughter Allison that everything he has done has been to prevent an inevitable war that would follow Renira taking the throne and to stop Renera

from killing Allison's son to solidify her claim. Allison's confidence in the kingdom is further shaken by an encounter with Laris Strong who somehow knows basically everything about Reneera especially her late-night tea consumption.

Viceris desperately in need of Dramamine takes Reneer to the wedding where does he take to? Is that Dragonstone he takes him to? Drift mark. Drift mark. High time. seat of Coralus and House Valerian.

Takes Renair to drift, Mark, so they can make this wedding happen with Coralus's son, and after some quibbles over naming rights, they agree to make it happen. Meanwhile, Corlis' son and Renera make an agreement to basically have an open marriage. It turns out that this great compromise of a union

doesn't really work for anyone. Not for Leinor, who is in love with another man. Not for Renira, who is at least in lust with another man. Not for Renis, who worries that her son will get killed, that will have a target on his back. And not really for Viseris, who is pretty clearly dying and is about to go back to a wife

is pee mad at him about this whole thing. Allison tries to get confirmation from Kristen about this Renira affair rumor with Damon and instead finds out that it was Kristen who did the deed. Just all-time, unforested error, own goal here for... For sure.

Astonishing stuff. A couple of OGs by my man, Kristen, this week. He seems to think that he's dead set for some castration, but Allison, is too deep in her feelings to have him gilded. So she also might be merciful as we'll see later in the episode. At the dinner for the royal

wedding, everything is going super well until the one-two punch of wife murdering Damon and Allison, the latter of whom is apparently declaring war with her dress choice. There is a long loaded dance sequence. The C-word finds a popularity among TV characters not seen since Deadwood.

Damon remains the best thing about this show and everyone seems to know who everyone else is sleeping with. Everything comes to a head when Joffrey Lawnmouth. Shout out to that guy. Just a great Dionne Waiter's performance from him. Tries to gossip with Sir Kristen about being secret lovers to the royal couple. It all pops off.

Sir Kristen caves the dude's head in. Right? A much more attractive version of a hound type dude that needs to rescue Rennera from this melee. All while Viseris seems to be bleeding from every orifice. Renier gets hitched. Her dad collapses and the rat from the departed shows up again. the end, there are other things that have happened that we'll get into.

To drink blood. The rap from the departing showed up to drink blood. What's up for that? Vampire rats? A subtle closing shot. Chris also fueled by blood when he's writing and reading these recaps. Oh my goodness. What a performance. Great stuff.

I would say that my favorite thing that happened in this episode by far was Damon's response to the guy being like, that was my cousin. He's like, literally who are you? Literally who are you? And also, by the way, I'm your landlord. But let's start with Reneira. Now, we hear a lot about how the knives are going to be out for Reneer if she becomes queen.

But who exactly would oppose her? Because by the end of this episode, it certainly seems like it's Allison in some ways. But I'm curious because all these banners, like all these houses have sort of sworn fealty to her, albeit maybe begrudgingly after Vassaris named her the heir. But when Otto is giving Allison this warning and Reney's is like, oh, God, the knives will be out, who are they talking about? To quote some of our favorite characters in Thrones history, including our guy Varis, the realm. Someone must. That realm, man.

This is actually one of the things that I liked most about the episode. The conversations between Otto and Alicent and Reneas and Corliss have such strong and overt peril. and harbingers of this doom that awaits in the future, even though these characters are not aligned with each other and thus are not looking at this from the same ambition, the same agenda, the same ultimate goal and endpoint, and yet they see the same eventuality. So you can look at what Otto says,

this, listen to me, daughter, plea. You can hear when Renice says to Corliss, we are placing our son in danger. And you can think back across the episodes, consider the sequence between Renice and Renéryon episode two, where we hear this idea of the order of things. And Reniro really pushing back against that, balking at that. They rejected you, but they bent the knee to me.

And Renice saying to her, here's the hard truth which no one else has the heart to tell you. Men would sooner put the realm to the torch than see a woman to send the Iron Throne. So this is just the reality. And the fact that all of the characters see this looming, I think Chris, like it's not just who would challenge Renira. it's the fact that everyone will challenge each other. Because Otto, what he's saying to Allison is think about your own children. If Renera is trying to secure her claim in her crown, she will have no choice. And the people who support her will have no choice but to eliminate them from the equation

so that these other people who Renise and co are talking about can't support them in challenge of her. So this is this inevitable doom that everyone sees. And if you couple that with the conversation between Vassaris and Lionel, where Vassaris is like, was I a good king? Am I a good king? What's my legacy? What am I leaving behind? And you think about like a great conversation between Tywin and Arian, Harenhaal, in Season 2 of Thrones, this idea that your legacy is what you pass on to your children and your children's children. It's what remains of you when you're gone.

Well, then it doesn't matter what the current state of affairs is for Vassaris and what he achieved. It matters what position he's leaving his. children and his heirs in. And everybody around him is saying, this feels like it's going to reach a boiling point no matter what. And something we've talked about in House of O'Hour is the fact that Georgia Aramarton based this story on a real 12th century civil war in England where the male monarch got all the lords in the land to swear fealty to his female, his daughter's female successor,

made them swear it, I think, four different times, maybe, just to be sure. And then there still was a massive civil war anyway because they're like, Like, we know we swore, but did we mean it? And, you know, and we saw, we saw a couple people in that, in that original swearing of guilty to Reneer. We saw a couple people, noticeably Hobart Hightower, noticeably the Baratian Lord, like, look really reluctant. Yeah, for sure.

When they were taking the oath, you know. I want to keep on this topic of, of sort of this brewing civil war, this brewing civil unrest among these royal families. But can we just talk about David for a second? Absolutely. Please. Matt's really like, we'll just show up for three scenes of these episodes

and each scene is just like the standout. So I guess my first question about Damon is, did he go back home with the express purpose of killing his wife? It certainly seemed like he did. What I love about this, and Mallory can agree or disagree with me, but I love how ambiguous they're making all these big moments for Damon. That's like the biggest thing is like

they will cut away in a significant moment. We don't actually see him drop the rock on her head. We see it cut away to someone's, you know, fish getting its head chopped off. In the book, Damon technically has an alibi for this moment, right? In the book, it says a year later in 115 AC, there came a tragic mishap of the sort that shapes the destiny of the kingdoms. The bronze bitch of runestone, lady Raya Royce fell from her horse whilst talking and cracked her skull upon a stone. And Damon is off fighting in the stepstones at the time. And so, but me reading the book and feeling the way that I do about Damon, which is that I love him, but also he will do as much evil as he possibly can, I definitely read that as he definitely killed her.

If he wasn't there, it's too convenient for him that she's dead. So if he wasn't there himself, he didn't zip over on his dragon, like he sent someone to do it, someone put a burn or saddle, something like that. So the fact that they placed him there is even more than what the book does, but they still cut away. he doesn't say anything in that scene once again. We get all these silent scenes with Damon. He barely says anything at the wedding either. There's like a long stretch where he's just sitting and looking. A big question, I think, for people was how is it that Damon's going to be invited to the

wedding after he was just banished the week before? And the answer is Vassaris is just too weak to do anything about it, I guess. He's also got a dragon, which I guess is the ultimate guest list pass. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I think that's, I mean, Matt Smith's performance. the mystique that they're building up for this guy

where he's not talking. So we get to fill in what we think he's thinking and what his motivations are and what's really going on with him. I think that's a big part of his draw. What do you think, Mallie? Well, Mel, I was going to ask you, my favorite part about this show maybe

is how almost every one of their scenes together, Reneera is basically like saying to Damon, like, fucking do it. Like, you think you're so bad. Like, you know, on the bridge, she's just like, if you want to be king, you just have to kill me. Yeah. And then she basically wants to sleep with him when they're at the brothel and he leaves her. And then now at this, in the dance floor, she's just like, go up and kill this old man who is literally falling to pieces. Kill everyone. And take me away. And let's go. And let's see if you have it. And, you know, it's like his ex-wife or, you know, late wife says, it's like I knew. I mean, it's a divorce in some parts of lectures. It's like his late wife says, I knew you couldn't finish.

Right. Not the subtlest scene in the history of our Westerosy programming when Leary is shouting, calling him McCraven and mocking him for not being able to finish. I did think that was particularly interesting, though, to Joe's point about this room for interpretation, Damon not speaking. Because I think there's a read on that initial scene where it's like, this is, we've talked a lot about how part of the appeal of the show and the appeal of this character said is the moral gray and how Damon is like most emblematic. of the characters who live in the moral gray and why they're interesting to us for that reason. I agree, Joe, that there's a lot of room for interpretation in that scene, specifically because Damon is not speaking.

And so we don't know exactly what his initial intention was when he set out exactly what's playing through his mind. But it is very clear that he feels, and this has become a through line, diminished by, in this case, Ria, and in other cases, other characters, mocking his impotence to his face. And so, like, for us to learn here from her that their marriage was not consummated

was a pretty big deal. And there's this through line of F&B of Fire and Blood that, you know, people, it's a barren marriage because they haven't produced an air. But once again, it seems that we have learned that Damon is not performing in the bedroom. And the fact that things that he has said before, like about the sheep and the veil,

etc. have made their way back to her. Everything spreads all the time. We're always reminded of the way this is a gossipy travel across the land. It absolutely is. I've loved the gossip girl memes that have been making their way across Twitter. We also have all these moments like the map of all the secret passageways in the Red Keep

that Damon left for Roanero last episode or the fact that he took the dragon egg from the dragon pit. Like he's able to get in and out of places without detection. That's something we know about his character. So I agree with Joe that I've always assumed that he showed up or said someone and was responsible for the death. I think there's a read of that scene

where like it's so lacking in subtlety that like the Damon's standing there with the basically in his Hogwarts robes yet again and like just leering. I'm like, is this skewing a touch too far into trying to make a character who's supposed to be embodying that moral gray just like a villain?

But I do think it's an achievement that we then still feel pulled in to his web of charm. And when he and Reneira are on the dance floor in plain view of everyone, once again conversing in Valerian, now a lot of people in that room in particular with the Targaryans and the Valerians would be able to

understand them, but they continue to cocoon themselves in this little bubble. And Reneera is one of the only characters who can challenge him without inciting some sort of rage in him. It's a really fascinating dynamic. But he still has his reactions to her. Like, you know, listening to the behind the scenes about the brothel scene,

one thing that the director, Claire Kildner said, was that her being into it was part of what made him pull back. It's just sort of like he likes to be the one with the upper hand at all times. And Reneira meeting him is attractive, but also not, you know, also pushes in the wrong way. And I think also what's really interesting is that we never meet Raya Royce in the book. And they just, they made the decision to make her kind of cool. She's kind of like an aria type, you know. And so again, to Mal's point, it underlines everything that he, every shitty thing.

that he said about her. Yeah, he makes her sound like, oh, my God. Like, she'll, like, she's like Medusa. You can't even deal. And she's like, she seems like a pretty cool, cool lady. Yeah, she's cool and hot. Yeah, yeah. She's cool and hot and maybe like a little snarky with her cousin,

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You mentioned the dancing scene with her, with Reneira and Damon. So I thought I would ask about this dance because it gets real crowded out there on the floor, like 1.45 a.m. New York City vibes. And then something pops off. Because all we see is Kristen and Joffrey kind of, you know, like letting Kristen know I know you were with Reneera. I'm with Lainer. we have this obligation to one another

not only to protect them but kind of also letting him know like keep our secrets but we don't see the moment where Kristen just loses it and then all of a sudden there's this scuffle and Kristen is going full Joe Pesci goodfellas on this guy

what was that about you know was he what do you think Kristen was really reacting to there was it that his spot was blown up that he was now like so far away from being part of the King's Guard and the sort of heroic oath that he had taken and now he was being compromised left and right.

What do you think was was the inciting incident or does he just have a really bad temper? Something that Fabian Frankel, who plays Kristen Cole, has had an interview, was that this idea that Kristen is a thug, and he just was sort of like covering his thuggishness this whole time, and that it's sort of in him. And what's really interesting in that scene where Joffrey comes over and plays his hand incorrectly. to Kristen Cole.

There's this really interesting shot as he's walking away just to Kristen's hands that are sort of just like flexing. So I feel like, I mean, there's a lot of buildup. There's a scene with Rainer and Kristen on the boat where he's like, you want me to be your whore.

Like, that's what you want. And her, I have a lot of feelings about that scene and what's going on in her head and her obligation in duty. But, you know, if this is the equivalent of her, like, of Aria throwing rocks at her dire wolf to get it to run away,

her saying, like, you think I would go with you, that is a huge, you know, wound and indignity to him. This thing that we've been talking about about his, like, upward mobility, how he's, like, the first member of the Cole family to go to college, essentially, like, that this is, like, really, really important to him. And it's all been put on the line. And he lays out the stakes to Allison in that conversation in case folks at home don't know. Like, it's not just you're going to get fired. It's you're going to get gilded and sent to the wall.

killed. Like, that's what's on the line for him. And I think also, he doesn't know where Allison got that information. He doesn't know that she got it from Laris. And he doesn't know that Joffrey, the world's greatest detective, figured it out just from like a few like glances on the dance floor. Yeah, exactly. So, like, he doesn't know if Roneira is out there, just like sort of gossiping about him and spread, you know, so like, I feel like all of that roiled up inside of him and also some of his own true nature that he had been sort of glossing over erupted out of him.

Yeah, I guess that actor is probably too hot to be like, oh, that would a thug. Like, what a thug just like holding it back. You know, it's like he definitely looks like pretty handsome dude. So you're not thinking like, oh, underneath the surface there, though. He's just like unconstructed thuggery. Incredibly handsome.

I think we all agree on that. That's a pretty uncomplicated opinion that is probably held by everyone viewing the show. And would that, would that, would that, like, would his behavior at that wedding be a deal breaker for you? Me personally, in terms of sharing a relationship with Kristen Cole with the fact that he removed a person's face at a public gathering,

be a deal breaker probably. A hate crime? Yeah, I would say so. Mal, I just can't believe how fussy you're getting in your old age. You know that? You know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know. Your standards. You know, like...

Oh, God. In Fire and Blood, Chris. Yeah. Kristen kills Joffrey. That happens. But very notably, he wounds him during a tournament. Is that under the same circumstances where Joffrey's like, by the way, I know that we are both secret lovers? We don't have, no.

We don't have any insight in Fire and Blood into that sort of exchange. Now, that doesn't mean it didn't happen because part of what we're gaining insight into the show is these firsthand, and direct accounts of what's passing between characters. Fire and blood is constructed, as we've mentioned before, about through these unreliable narrator accounts, what people witnessed or heard or read in somebody's account. So maybe that happened, and it never made its way back to people. But there's no cover of a tournament here regardless.

Like, Kristen Cole pursues Joffrey in the middle of the welcome feast at the wedding ceremony, the beginning of this week. and murders him and is wailing and screeching and and annihilating and turning his face into a total ruin. And I don't know how he or Allison or anyone will be able to explain that away. Because if you hit your morning star into somebody's helm and crack their skull and it takes them six days to die, which is what happens in fire and blood, you say, hey, if you choose to enter the tournament, you understand what the risk is,

even if there were something else motivating his rage in that moment, right? So I will be really fascinated to see. If you want to catch passes over the middle, you know, that's what's going to happen. We're recording on an NFL Sunday, you know. I'll be fascinated to see if there's any explanation offered up. If Kristen tries to say, oh, I saw him attack or he was a threat to somebody. But even then, there's no justification for the extent of what he did, none at all. I got the impression that when he was on the verge of opening up his own stomach,

that he wasn't going to try and be like it was provoked. But he stopped. And so he will move forward. He didn't kill himself there. And so what will be the explanation offered up? Will there be one? I'll be really curious to see. I think what Joe said about the conversation

between Reneer and Kristen on the boat is, like these scenes are inextricable from each other. Because when he says, I took an oath as a knight of the king's card, an oath of chastity, I've broken it, I've soiled my white cloak, and he's in tears. There's no coming back already for him in his mind.

And he has this, he makes this pitch to Rinearra about a marriage for love, about escaping and being free. And I'm not saying that he doesn't feel that or doesn't believe that. But I think it is also equally true and a primary motivator for him as he says, I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it, meaning his honor. Like, this is the only path he sees left for regaining that standing and that stature that completely changed his life and his house's standing.

So without that, what is he driven to? He tells Allison, please kill me. Yeah. Right? So he doesn't see a way forward. And I fully believe that he would have killed himself and the gods would have if Allison hadn't showed up. And I think I do, to your point, Mallory,

I think this is a slight flaw of the show because this was a big question we had last week was like, how is Damon going to show up to the wedding when he's just been exiled? And the answer was he just did. And a question I have going forward is, we know from interviews that the show owners have given that the big time jump is the next episode.

Next episode. So we're getting a massive time jump. So I don't, I mean, I don't know that they're going to be like, I feel like they're going to yada yada over how it was that Kristen Cole was able to murder someone with his bare hands in public, someone important to the king consort, the future king consort, and stay in the game, you know? I'm sure that there is an answer to this in the text and I don't want to spoil anything for our listeners nor myself. But it certainly seems like if I could pull one idea out of this whole episode, it's like that Allison is sort of becoming queen in all the ways that you kind of,

need to be if you're going to be in power in this world. And like, I think she starts to see the chessboard. I think she starts to move pieces around for herself. And what does she do? She goes and takes Reneira's lover and closest bodyguard and shows him mercy, like, sees him as a full person and is like, stop. Now we don't know what happens after that. But I kind of wanted to maybe we pivot into the Allison conversation here because she's obviously a huge part of this episode. I was curious, and Joe, maybe you can tell me a little bit about this. Like, it seemed like Allison, was she more hurt that Rainira lied?

Or was she more that, was it more that she now understood the level of duplicity that was sort of happening around her? Like, is she still hanging on to this idea that the two of them are friends? Or is it more that like, oh, what my dad said is true? All this shit is happening in secret passageways.

Not only did she probably, like, still go out with Damon, but then she came home and hooked up with her Kingsguard, like her bodyguard. And everything that I think in my sort of innocent, nail-biting eyes is like a lie. And like this place is like full of vipers. I think that's part of it.

And it's part of, I mean, I think Otto really set the table for her there when he left. When he married her off to an old man. No, but like when he left, he said, you know,

he basically laid it out to her that, this was her fault. And that in choosing Reneira over him is the way he puts it, she is directly responsible for him leaving and therefore directly responsible for placing herself at the palace all

alone. She already mentioned last week that she feels like she has no friends, people just see her as the queen, more than anything else. As bad as her father was to her, he was an ally that she could rely upon and he's gone. And then here comes my favorite,

Lara Strong up, like up to her whispering in her ear. Can't wait to talk about this guy. Okay. I mean, I cannot wait. But like, he's underlining that aloneness to her and and underlining this idea that like a game, both Otto and Laris, basically there's a game going on and you're not even playing it at all. And it's going on around you. And even Reneira, who we've seen for years, Allison has been defending Reneera both to Reneer's face and while

Reneer is not there. and for Rainira to lie to her, to swear, as we talked last week, on her mother's memory, and lie to her. So there's like hurt and betrayal is in there, but I think also just this idea of like, okay, grow up, Allison. Now is the time to like get smart. What do you think, Mel? Yeah, I agree.

I think all of these different threads fall into this tapestry of loss of innocence, right? And moving into this. But we heard the showrunners talk. I believe it was the end of episode. episode three about how that was like the childhood's end episode for multiple characters, Alison Renera Damon. I think really this is the end of that for Allison, because, or it's where she accepts and acknowledges and recognizes that truth and then moves forward and really grasps that agency.

I think that we talked a lot last week, and so I won't rehash it here, but I think that Allison's views on, like, what she sincerely would think of Rainira coupling with Damon. in at a brothel or Reneira's sleeping with Kristen. I think she genuinely would not approve of that. I think that the thing that though ultimately is the nail in the coffin here of their friendship is the lie because that that cements for Allison, not only that she was being used, but that other people think they can use her, that they know they can lie to her and deceive her and make her a pawn in their game.

and that if she doesn't want that to be true, she has to change that for herself. And so even in exchange, like, I thought the conversation that she had with her, with Hobart, High Tower, was so fascinating because he, she, she thanks him for coming.

And the first thing that he says is, I was worried that given leave of your father's shadow you might wither in Kingslanding's son. And I was like, what's up with this guy? This is a pretty weird thing and a very insulting thing to say to somebody. But that's again,

another acknowledgement of this very clear and visible reality that pretty much everyone sees about Alice's circumstance. And so the fact that the next thing he says to her is, but you stood tall, know that Old Town stands with you. Like, that's an important thing that she has made a decision to say, okay, and we talked so much about the dress choices earlier in the season. And I know we talked about it already in this episode, but I think we have to say one more thing, which is tracking the progression. because now I look back on all her jokes about why was she in this one dress. And it's like she starts in this pale blue, right? This very innocent childlike color.

And she moves into wearing her mother's old gown on her father's orders. And then she spends multiple episodes in the colors of somebody else's house, House Targaryen red, house Targary and black, the drapery of this marriage that she was ultimately guided into by somebody else's hand. And so moving into House High Towers color of her own volition, when she is choosing not to go check on the king, not to go spend time with him, interrupting his speech,

drawing all eyes to her. Like, I don't think we can overstate the significance of what that represents. No, and Mal, I think that's a crucial way of like watching the show, is that, like, I think for me,

honestly, it's been a little bit of getting my head around, like, what this show is doing rather than what it's not doing in relationship to Thrones. And this is way more of like a comedy and tragedy of manners

in royalty rather than here are these people, these sort of these castaways in the world who will eventually rise and lead it to its salvation. It's like much more about these very, very, very high-born, people who are following all these social graces and breaking them at times and sometimes quite violently. But I think it's easier now that I've kind of seen these five episodes, to kind of get my head around, like, what at least this version of the show is doing.

It could change is like that new actors come in and everything. But it's kind of an interesting lens to watch the show through. Yeah. And I think this is like the opposite of the point we were making earlier about how the time jumps are really kind of wonky. And like the moments that we're missing in between actually are like to the show's detriment quite often. I think, Chris, the point you're making is the inverse of that, which is the show has been really expert at using set design and character positioning. and those sorts of choices to tell us something significant. Like we talked last week about how Vesaris was using Blackfire,

the ancestral sort of Agonne the Conqueror as a walking stick. What about when Viseris walks in and Corliss is sitting in the chair? This is what I was just going to say. Corliss not greeting Vesaris in the yard, making Vesaris coughing, ailing, pallid, feeble, visibly infirmed, walk to him into his hall in high tide where Corlis is sitting on the Driftwood throne. And then that throne comes into play again

because they position Reignese, the queen who never was, in front of it. Now, when they're talking, when Corlis is asking for the details, just some details on the succession and will these children carry their father's name, the queen who never was, she's not standing in front of the Iron Throne,

but still, it's the symbol of power and a seat of might. And all of those things, I think the show has done quite well. It's just those moments that we're missing in between that I think we're going to have a couple more episodes of needing

to navigate before we slow down. I love that moment when Rainis is standing by the Driftwood Throne, and Viseris says, like, surely you wouldn't end the Targaryen line simply because my daughter is a woman, and the look that Rainies gives is priceless, because she's like, oh, now we care about women's rights in Westrose, sure. And I think also, like, to your point about comedy of errors and comedy of manners, like, the contrast between Reneer and Allison throughout the show and specifically at this wedding, Jason Lannister, that total douchebag,

comes up to, you know, the table and is talking, and Reneer is so rude. She's rolling her eyes right in front of him. Meanwhile, Allison walks over to her uncle, to the High Tower clan, and is making allies and friends. So Reneer is just like making enemies left and right, and Allison is, and has been all along.

We saw it at the hunt with the ladies that are around her at the hunt, making friends. Reneer is making enemies. and that's just, you know, the game is already afoot here in these early days. Yeah, I mean, I thought that that's a really great point, Joe, because, like, the, Reneer's behavior throughout that wedding celebration, that dinner is pretty childish. You know, she's just like, it's my wedding to this guy.

I'm not going to really make much of an effort to make it seem like this is this great, romantic, powerful pairing. And then the most erotic moment of the wedding is me with my uncle. Like, you know, like is me with this guy who is essentially like the whole realm knows as a murderer. And we're going to flirt on on the dance floor and only be interrupted by my other boyfriend killing someone. So she's a hot mess, you know? And that is, that is really like, it'll be fascinating to watch whether or not they, how they chart Allison and Renier, especially once different performers are playing those roles. I wanted to ask a little bit about Laris because I was like, oh, this guy's interesting when he pops up at the.

at the what was at the naming festival and like he's just like I can't hunt. Yeah, yeah. And then his character kind of comes to fruition in this episode. I thought that was a great scene of him, you know, just sort of slowly picking at the scab on Allison until finally he spun her out

totally and like making himself an ally to her while also like accruing a lot of information for himself. Is Laris trying to destabilize his father because his father obviously treats him like shit because he's not able to fulfill like a lot of sort of manly duties, I guess, in this world? Or is he just an ambitious political operator? I think this has everything to do with how Laris is working Allison. And I'll say something

that might surprise you both here. I didn't really like this scene. I thought this was really like. It's my favorite scene. I'm not surprised. And I, Joe, we both, you know, really like Laris. and I was excited to see him enter the show. And I think that it's a scene that I'll probably enjoy more on subsequent watches. I don't know that this is even a fair critique. It just felt like they were so overly

trying to capture Littlefinger energy in the scene. And like I I think it would not be like truthful or in good faith to say that Littlefinger always acted with great nuance and subtlety. He did not. Like he literally would just face off with Searcy in the courtyard and say, yeah, when brothers and sisters fuck, that could be

really awkward. So it's not like Littlefingers scenes weren't laying it on thick too, but something about the way that Laris was so clearly trying to work Alicent in a way that not only the audience, but Alicent herself could not fail to miss or ignore. Like, I want, I'm delighted to have my schemer in the show. Yes. So, seen is ultimately successful in that respect. But I want my, my skewers to be operating with a bit more care so that it's harder to detect exactly what they're trying to do. Now, ultimately, though, he achieves his end. He sets into course everything that he's trying to do. He plants these seeds of doubt in Allison's mind with his reveal about the tea that Reneira is

deceiving her. And everything that follows with Allison's conversation with Kristen and beyond comes from this moment. So Laris is a character we need to take seriously. And they establish that well. And I like his, you know, opening conversation about the floor unfa of Kingslanding. It's a metaphor for how Allison herself should not be thriving, but somehow is. But for him to just actually say out loud like, you need an ally, I just, I thought it was like a degree off. Well, I think there's also an element of it. I thought it was a well-performed scene. I thought that the actor who plays Laris is good. I just...

He wasn't wearing just a touch too much. Well, I mean, but like, that's... Like, I think that... Yes, I think he was definitely doing, like, the, like, I'm walking beside you, but also try to, like, stick my head around in front of you so that I can see your facial expressions. If I had any issues with it,

it was more just, like, a little bit of, like... So you have super ears. Like, you just know all this stuff. You, and you know all the details and all the nuances of what happened. That part I liked, though, because he says... If you're not asked to speak, you've got to observe. You have to listen.

So they just don't have, they don't have HIPAA in Westrose, huh? Like, we're not like it. Well, this is what we said last week, that that tea was like a test, right? No matter what, like, was going to tell in some respect. If Reneera drinks it, then word travels, et cetera. So the thing, yeah, the thing that I would say about Laris is that we already, I like that they already seated into the episode with the hunt that he has a way of insinuating himself and listening and observing in places where he doesn't even belong, you know, that he's just

like, oh, for me, I can't participate in the hunt? Can I sit here with these ladies? And then it's just information gathering while he's doing that, right? And so there's many ways in which he could do that around the castle and just be like, oh, you know, my poor foot, I just need to sit here and listen to the servants gossip or something like that. And I, I, I, I, I, you know, I, you know, hear what you're saying, Mallory. I'm not entirely disagreeing. I think, again, I would, I would argue that's a function of the compressed timeline where they're, like, we're not given many scenes of Laris, like, working. He gets one scene to shoot his shot here. You know what I mean? Totally. If we had had more exposure to him, this would just feel like the, the natural culmination

of his plotting as opposed to, like, our first real time with him. And he's making, he's making his move, but instead it's like, oh, this guy just popped out of nowhere and knows everything. and like Lanz's like three-pointer from the first attempt. Yeah. And similarly, I think that Harwin Strong, who's his brother, who gets at least a little bit more screen time in this episode, but like, they're not enough, Joanna. They're not laying enough track, I think, with him.

Is he the guy who breaks up the fight? Yeah. And like Lionel, so that's Laris' brother, breakbones, aka the strongest, like, man in Westrose is what he's supposed to be. And his father, Lionel Strong, gives him a little nod. to be like, hey man, go take care of this. And he's like, sure thing. He lets that fight go for like a minute and a half, though, before he's like, all right, now you can go break it up.

So I was wondering about that. Like was the- Go get Ranira is what he says, you know, basically. Yeah. I have always loved the contrast between Harwin Strong, Strong of Body and Laris Strong, the like, you know, the archetype that George, Martin loves, the, like, Tyrion, the Richard the third character who needs to, like, compensate for the ways in which people underestimate him. by being cunning and smart and smarter than anyone else in the room. And I also like, if we're going to talk about English monarchs, can we talk about the deterioration of the Saras?

Is that what you want to talk about next? Excellent. Him is that. I want to hear about it. Well, are guys in a tough spot here. Yeah. Things are grim. I am not a doctor.

But I think we are nearing the end of the road with Patty here. Like, you know, just in terms of like, I don't know how many more pieces of him. can fall off. I don't know how many more liquids can spill out of him. You know, he's barfing, he's bleeding. People are handshaking him and there's nothing there. It's just recoiling in pain

when he grasps his hand. His wife is pretty much abandoned him. You know what I mean? Like he's feebly trying to cut some quail and saying fuck it and like tearing it with his hands. Yes. I love that because it made me think of Jamie and Brianna and

Rousse and the failing at dinner. meat cutting. I was curious because, you know, he's obviously in, and we talked a little bit about this, he's in legacy building mode. He's just sort of thinking, like, what was this all about? And I was curious whether or not,

because we don't really see a lot of, like, what's going on outside these castle walls? Like, what's the world like right now? Is it a time of peace? Is it a time of prosperity? Or is it, we're all just kind of, like, scared of these dragons and they keep us in line or what? but, you know, there's this big thing in Arthurian myth, you know, about the land and the king are one.

That, like, the land sort of thrives as the king does and as the king is sick, you know, in the case of Arthur until he gets the grail, right? If I'm remembering it correctly. Like, the land is sick and that's the, you know, the plague is hitting. And I was wondering whether or not there was any, like, in the text examples of this was also a tough time for Westeros, you know, or if everything is going. going fine, and everybody's just psyched for this royal wedding. I think Mallory might have a few other details, but I think the best information we have in the show is early on when they mentioned that, like, Kings Landing is in a sham—crime is up. Oh, yeah.

And this is why Damon and the Gold Cloaks have to crack down and gild people in the street. George Martin loves a guelting, you know what I mean? So we're gelding people in the streets. Wheelbarrows full of body parts. It's fine. But yeah, the tough on crime attitude is because DeSaris, like, he's just an absent king, I think what's true. And so what that means more than like is the countryside ailing, is everything going to shit in Kings Landing, etc. Is that the office of the king or the office of the monarch loses meaning if your monarch is literally not present for anything, which is sort of my idea of the Saris is that he's just hold up in his room getting, you know, his wounds swabbed.

Sidebar, what's the worst job? Like, wound swabber to the king or or puke bucket holder on the ship to the king. like which is the worst job, but like, that he's not, he's effectively not ruling. He's not going to war when he needs to go to war. And so it just undermines in general the importance of the monarchy. That's, that's my take. What do you think, Mallory? Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

And we've had a lot of lines, as you noted throughout the episode so far, about the state of the kingdom, but also more broadly about the fact that Vassarra's reign invites challenge, which I think is the greatest indictment that you could have, that anybody would deign to say, you are weak. Like, even if they think it, the fact that they would express it. And so the scene between Vassaris and Lionel Strong, as Vassaris's rotting arm is on full view, I thought it was an exceptional scene, one of my favorite of the season to date.

But I don't think we can overstate the significance of what Corlis chose to say to him. Not only what we already talked about, how he greets him. But what Joe mentioned, like the, are you really suggesting this? Corlis says later to Rainis, did I,

did I go too far? Did I? The thing is, he didn't. Because Viseris, he pushes back just enough to say, okay, they'll have the name Valerian.

They'll carry their father's name. And then whoever takes the throne will, of course, be a Targaryen, because my dynasty's not going to end all the chat that we've heard for a couple episodes about dragons ruling for a hundred more years. There's a version of a ruler in House Targaryen who beheads the person who would even consider suggesting something like that to them, not just agree to a pact come to terms immediately thereafter.

So Viseris is in a position where he needs to mend. He had to go to him. It's crazy. Yeah. And Renice says it, right? like Viseras embarrassed himself by sailing here to ask this of us. While she's watching her hands after touching him. I gotta say, I love that.

So happy to have Corlis and Radis back. I've missed them. It was a delight to spend time in high tide. What a seat. Wonderful to be on Drift Mark. Here's, Joe, it's a crucial thing, though, hand washing. Yeah. But the problem with that is, is now I have to ask,

does anyone wash their hands in any other situation in Game of Thrones? No. Because it's the first hand watching, I remember. Never forget Roz's water basin as she's listening to Paisal and say the thing about Kings, you know. There's a great moment in Westerosi washing. If I had, you know, I think Mallory has her criticism of the larisine. Here's my biggest criticism of the episode. We get, and I don't know if you could tell Chris, but we got a new dragon.

It's just going to ask if Chris noticed the new dragon. We got, so like, what I think is key. The Red Queen. is Vesaris is talking, and he's talking about his legacy, and then it cuts to two dragons in the sky, a dragon screech and two dragons in the sky. And we talk so much about how Vesaris doesn't have a dragon and how that makes him such a weak Targaryen by comparison.

It's Lainor on Sea Smoke, which we already saw, the Battle of Stepzones. And then Rainees, herself, on her dragon, Maly's, but I don't know that anyone at home could necessarily know that that's what they were looking at, because there's no establishing shot of that. I thought it was Reneira. I thought it was Reneera and Lainer were having like a sort of new red ride out. Yeah. I mean, like, Mallory's smirking because the dragons are different colors, but honestly, who could blame you? But who could blame you?

Maly says red. That's why she's called the red queen. Scarlet scales. You have to admit that the show did a really bad job of this. This was, I, this was one of my points as well because, one of my critiques as well, because especially given that Corla says, like, it's one of the things that they're debriefing on, you know, who would dare to, because Renice is concerned about what this marriage pact will mean for Lenore and putting him in risk, putting their house at risk. And Corlis says we've got, you know, not only this fleet, we control the Navy, but we've got half the dragons. That's an incredibly important thing to say in a show called the House of the Dragon that has done not a great job

of actually giving us the origin stories of pairing the dragons and the dragon riders. So there's a lot of just fun Males and Rainey's history with her arriving to her own wedding on that dragon. And so riding the dragons into Kings Landing is, yeah, the show of strength. And I agree it would have been important and really cool to, like, actually tell us definitively what was happening there, given how much emphasis they are putting on the dragons that they control. So am I to believe, and first of all, Allison is not there when they actually tie the knot, right? Did I miss that? She's there.

She is there. Okay. Yeah. Am I to understand that that was a rush job because there was a homicide at their party? It was supposed to be seven days of feasting and tournese. And instead they're like, quickie wedding, don't even bother to clean up the puddle of blood on the floor. Lainor is like dabbing his bleeding nose still. I mean, this is immediate.

So what's the urgency? Is it because if they don't do this fast, Vesaris is going to die and there will be this empty, you know, like this moment where like who's going to take power or is it because there's obviously some security issues within this party. We need to like get like, was it almost like a secret service kind of thing? Or was it what prompted the urgency there? I don't know. I just felt like it was get this done. This was such a mess.

What a disaster. But let's get this done before anyone changes their mind. Maybe it's before the Valerians changed their mind. Let's just get this done. Because Ranez is like, we're putting a target on our sons back and what happens at the feast. And Kristen punches him in the face. and then two randos hurl him into a table. Right.

And his lover dies on the floor, you know? It's like, yeah. I think that's it too. They just had to get it done immediately before anything else that's terrible could happen. But it connects to your larger question, Chris, about Fasaris' state and like how he's thinking about the future. I was struck by like what he said to Lionel about it hardly makes a good song, does it?

Like it made me, it felt very much like the sister scene. into his conversation with Allison in episode three in front of the bonfire where he's talking about dragon dreams and the power of prophecy against the power of dragons and how badly he wanted it to be true. Like, he really wants to be a good king and a king who is remembered. And he says here, you know, there's part of me that wishes I'd been tested. I often think that in the crucible, I may have been forged a different man. As is repeatedly the case, Lionel has very sage counsel in response to that.

Like, usually the people who tested wish they hadn't been. But I thought especially given the way the showrunners had described the stepstones battle for Damon as like this anvil in which his character was forged, that was really notable language, that Viseris is so keenly aware. And this connects again to Corlis and that conversation, that great conversation from episode two about not waiting for the storm. This is the recurring thing with Viseris. He waits and waits and waits. And then he has no choice but to act impulsively and reactively to whatever new horror has unfolded in front of him. But I want to ask you, Mallory, because in this episode, Rainey says Veseris chose to sail into that tempest. I don't know such weird language when they've been like criticizing him for not sailing into a tempest.

And then he does so. And Rani's is like, what a weak ass move of his, you know. Well, I guess if you're sailing into the tempest, the storm is already there and you've awaited it. It's coming. Yeah, it's a good point. Well, I just don't feel like Viseras has a lot of longevity. after what we saw, there's obviously some ambiguity about whether or not those were his spinal breaths. Some debate about his medical care. Some purple pulsedist talk versus some leech talk, Chris.

Which camp are you in? You're in Pulsus camp or Leach camp? Want to give those Pulsus as a try? Are you trying to reopen the, are the Macer's actually trying to kill Versaerius conversation? Is that a, is that a conspiracy? I mean, that's what we talked about before, this sort of Grand Macer conspiracy. Like, you know, is he leaching him to death or not? We don't know. It seems strange that they did not have a better treatment plan for this. And also just like Patty Concedee is the one kind of diagnosing Vassaris.

But like in the show, they're just like, oh, God, this guy's body's just falling off. That's, okay. So that's the other English monarch I actually want to talk about was Henry VIII had this skin condition where like basically his body parts just kept falling off until he was done. So I don't know if they're trying to do something like that. But yeah, we had talked offline or outside of this podcast about this interview that Patty Constine gave where he said, He diagnosed Viceris with leprosy, like a symbolic leprosy? But I guess not a catching leprosy because, like, Allison doesn't have it. I don't really understand.

It's a particular westerosi strain of leprosy, I guess. But, like, this is not quite what's happening in the book. In the book, he's just getting, like, cut by the throne in the way that we mentioned before. So this is a show invention situation, a fun challenge for the makeup department, to be sure. It's gross. It's really disgusting. I don't have anything else. I think we wrapped it all up really nicely in a bow.

I feel like this show is going to change pretty drastically in the next week. I'm sad to say goodbye to our young cast here. What a wonderful five episodes it's been, but I'm so excited to welcome our new cast. I wonder what this, you know, so I, do I find my foot tapping a little bit sometimes being like, let's speed things up a little bit? I do.

I do wonder what would have happened if these first six, five episodes were the first ten episodes and that they had expanded and filled in some of the blanks and not done the time jumping. I'm sure they were concerned that just simply not enough exciting shit happens here. But if you had made

and they tried to make crap feeder into Darth Vader there for a few minutes. So like I think that they were trying to build up dramatic tension. But I do wonder whether or not could they do it again, would they have done it differently? but if it was like 10 episodes of these younger women before they become who they're going to become and this is like all the sort of preamble

but goes in the first season, yeah, I'm sure some people would have been like, did we have to spend this much time like finding out about this guy or that person? But on the other hand, you know, it seems like we've come out of this period and be like, oh,

I would have liked to have known how Laris came across all this information, you know, and that kind of thing. I am anticipating. I have not seen the next. episode. I have no idea what's going to happen. But given what we know what has been widely reported about- And we haven't seen scenes from next week either. No, we have not because, right, that's not included in the screener. Given what's widely reported about the time jump to come,

as Joe already mentioned, I'm anticipating, even if it is a great episode just in a vacuum as an episode of TV, which I think it will be, I'm anticipating a real period of recalclamation where we're like, wow, what is all this stuff that? happened that we missed and that that takes some real getting used to. But then ultimately that will settle into the new pace of the show. I am like, I don't know why, but I'm so bizarrely defensive of Emma Darcy and Olivia Cook who are coming in because all I'm hearing is how much people are going to miss these young women who are doing such a great job. But Olivia and Emma were cast first and these young women were cast to play their younger versions. And so I'm like, I'm frustrated by

I also think Olivia Cook is awesome. I haven't seen a lot of Emma Darcy stuff. Olivia Cook's great. I think it's going to... I think they're going to kill it. I think they're absolutely going to kill it. Yeah. Well, until next week, where I'm sure we'll have a ton of talk to talk about.

Joanna, Mal. It was great chatting with today. We were produced, as always, by Steve Allman. You can listen to Joanna and Mallory on House of R on Tuesdays. They're deep dive. You can listen to Andy and I this week on Monday. We will be talking about House of the Dragon, but we were also covering the industry season finale and the premiere.

of Atlanta. So, you know, full watch, but some, some dragon talk for sure. It was wonderful to chat with you, too. I can't wait to hear you and Andy talk about all the oranges and cinnamon on those ships to SOS. Oh, I thought that there was like oranges and cinnamon in the finale of industry. I was like, oh my gosh. I mean, there might be, you know. Talk to you next week. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people, real care, real intention. Why? Because real matters.

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