The Ringer-Verse - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 6 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: September 26, 2022

The great time jump is upon us, and Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson are here to talk all about the latest episode of 'House of the Dragon.' Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Oh, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. my name is Chris Ryan and I am an editor at the ringer.com. Joining me this week as always is Ringer Senior Staff writer Joanna Robinson and someone who will never stand under a King's Landing window for as long as she lives. Mallory Rubin. You are the challenge, Chris.

You are the challenge. It's great to see the two of you. It's great to see a new episode of House of the Dragons. It's what we're discussing this week. It's the princess and the queen. Funnily enough, the backup name for the watch, with me and Andy. We were going to go.

It was either Princess and the Queen or to watch. We couldn't decide. Which is which, Chris. Which is which? This one was written by Sarah Hess. It was directed by your boy Miguel Sopachnik and it featured a 10-year time jump,

which, you know, it's become kind of common in modern television to mess around with chronology, to jump ahead of things. I don't remember 10 years in any of my favorite shows that have done this. And I certainly don't remember a big casting change or two or three or five or whatever.

After only five episodes, but that's what we got in the sixth episode of House of the Dragon. Gosh, this one was a doozy. And it was a doozy because not only what happens on screen, but just it was so dense. I'm so glad I'm here to talk about it with Mallory and Joe. Why don't we start with the big changes, Joanna? How about that? Great. What did you think of Emma Darcy as Rainira and Olivia Cook as Allison?

You and I talked a little bit, Chris, about like how much we, We've loved Olivia Cook's other work, and so we were certain that we were going to love for her. Slow horses gang. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Mallory is a slow horses fan erasure here. Very tough.

I can never tell. Sorry. I'm so sorry. He's put me on the Slow Horses group chat next time. I know you have a constant me, Earl, and the dying girl just like playing in a loop in the background all the time. I enjoy that movie. It's a great movie.

Ready Player 1. Okay. So anyway. Olivia Cook fan, definitely. Emma Darcy was a bit more of a question mark for me, but I just loved this introduction, the long walk and talk. Unlike...

All the birth sounds were just elite. Squelching, I think, is what we got. Yeah. But I just, I love Emma's take on Renera. I can see Millie Alcock in this performance, but also see what the 10 years have, have done to this woman. And I'm thrilled, honestly, by this change.

How about you, Mel? Loving the new cast. Had a great time in the first five episodes with our original cast. And I am quite impressed with Emma and Olivia so far. Delighted by John McMillan as New Lainor. Like, it's just, it's cool to see all of the new cast members. The time jump is obviously something we'll chat about a lot today.

I think that in some ways it's going to be quite jarring for people in other ways it worked a little bit better. than I was anticipating. But in terms of the performers capturing the essence of the characters at this point in their arc, I thought that was a hit right away. So, Mal, we've known each other for 10 years.

Oh, my God. Plenty is... Nine, I think, but yeah. Plenty has happened in those years. We haven't done anything as interesting as what the characters on this show have done. But one of the things that I was struck by was all the things that we are

to intuit have happened in the intervening years between these two episodes. Because obviously some of the standout scenes from Princess and the Queen are those that involve the Princess and the Queen facing off. First with her being forced to, or at least refusing to just have a midwife take the baby to Allison, but she's going to walk herself all the way to the Queen's room, show the baby off. You know, you've got that face off in the small council. There's a lot of proxy battles going on. But I think that for regular Joe's and Jane's like myself, it might be kind of hard to understand, like, well, so they're just as mad at each other 10 years later

than they were at the end of episode five. Do you think that that is the correct read, that there's just been no thawing, that things have just gotten progressively worse, and that Reneera being with Harwin as a, like, poorly kept secret, has just exacerbated the problems between Reneer and Allison. I would go a step further and say, not only is the read that time has exacerbated and entrenched this divide,

I would say that was the entire point of the first five episodes to help us understand how that came to be such a deeply rooted and deeply felt division that impacted not only Reneura and Allison, but every single person in their family and orbit. And, you know, we chatted previously about like the idea of starting with the Council of 101 as a prologue to this series, but those first five episodes were the prologue to this series. And so, on the one hand,

I would have loved to spend every single minute with those characters in this 10-year gap in between. I would have loved to welcome all of these new children and all of these new jackets to our screen directly. You wanted the richer Linklater's

boyhood version of House of the Dragon. One of my favorite movies of all time, as you know. So honestly, yes, exactly. I like to grow up alongside the characters and watch the characters grow up themselves. But the thing that we had to understand,

the one thing is how these characters came to feel this way about each other, what history led them there. And so that's why we got those five episodes to understand where Allison and Renera are now. Joe, the time jump. Yay or nay. Yeah, I mean, I think if you had just started the show

with this episode, I think Allison especially is someone hard to root for in this episode. And I know that, you know, like, book readers have their opinions of Alicent. And so I think to show her in, you know, as a person who was pushed around by her father and all these other things to make her younger, to make them have a friendship in the first place that they lost, I think that was really smart to gain our sympathies before things get tougher. And I think also to root that misunderstanding between them, that initial rift in Reneira's sex life. and then to make Rainier's sex life such an ongoing important part of what happens here and now, I think that was a clever link because basically when we meet them in the book,

it's just sort of like they were okay and then they hit each other and we don't know why. And so they had to invent a reason why. And I think this was a smart way to connect it with events we do know about. Should I recap this episode? Let's do it. I don't really have a cool Midnight Manifest nickname for this. Maybe we could get one. Christopher C-word countdown every week.

get a couple new utterances to... I get one every week. You got two this week. Yeah. This episode, we could call it back to the future. You could call it, call the midwife, call it what you want. The new episode skips years ahead. And we join our regularly scheduled programming with Renira in labor. It is her third son.

I think I'm right on that one. This one is called Joffrey. And she is immediately summoned to intro the kid to the queen, Allison, who continues to flex green dress energy all these years into the... future. Alice, it has Kristen as her bodyguard, Viseris as her one-armed old-ass husband, and some serious attitude about Reneer's son's hair and its relationship to the paternity of Joffrey. Back in her room, Reneer exchanges some tender one-liners with Harwin Strong, the dude who broke up the brawl at Reneira's wedding dinner. He is also obviously the bigger, stronger son of

Lionel Strong, Hand of the King. Either way, there's just a ton of real Mori Povich, you're the father stuff happening here. Next we get into serious how to train your dragon territory with the sons of Reneera and Allison. Reneer's boys are

all brown-haired while Allison's sons have traditional Targaryen locks. Allison isn't having it and tells Viseras as much in return he tells her a story about horse sex. I mean, when I say she isn't having it.

I think she is very dubious about whether or not Reneer's kids are the product of Lainor and their union. Allison goes to chat up her eldest son, Agon, immediate coach's poll preseason number one. Absolute national champion in waiting for me here.

Agon, and she interrupts him acting out one of my favorite lines from Rick Ross's mafia music. I'm not going to read that line, but you can Google it. It involves masturbating from a very high place. Up in the sky, Damon and his wife, Lena Valerian, are flying dragons and making friends, scoring the invite for a second residence in Pento's, which I hear is really nice for tax purposes,

provided that they throw their superior air power into the fight against that pesky triarchy. I definitely know what they are now and the Army of Dorn. Damon likes being a mercenary, but his wife misses life in the drift mark. A sword fighting exercise goes wrong between the Tard kids and the Valerian boys

leading to a Christian Harwin brawl and turning up the volume on the Harwin is daddy talk among the royal court. This hangs over a small council meeting, where Reneer tries to make peace, but is rebuffed by Allison. Lionel Strong tries to resign his post because he refuses to say, but when he refuses to say why, Viseris refuses to accept, instead agreeing to let Lionel and Harrowin beat it to Harenhall.

This turns out to be a bad beat for two-thirds of the strong family because limping Laris uses this trip as an opportunity to reform the Westrose prison industrial complex, cutting out the tongues of some criminals, and having them burn his dad and brother alive. I guess all to put him in good with the queen. She is a bit taken back by these developments. As are we all. Joe.

What was your favorite part about this episode? It's really hard to pick one, and I know you don't want me to go on forever. But I have... You can go on for as long as you want. I have a few. Can you? Do you?

Number one. We get to mention of Grover Tully. And I just need you, Chris Ryan, to know. that George R. Martin decide to name the members of House Tully at this era, Grover, Elmo, and Oscar. That is a real thing that happens in the book. So get excited. He's the one who's getting made fun of at the table, right?

Like, they're like, oh, Tully's, right? They're like, this is Tully business, you know. Alicent is preaching non-interventionist policy and Reneer's like, but what if we actually cared about our kingdom? And then the Olivia Cook's line read of one and all, time or great, Allison Byrne from the book. Do keep trying Sir Leinor. Sooner or later, you may get one that looks like you.

This is a great line from the book, and she just absolutely knocked out of the park. But I think my real MVP moment is Reneura saying goodbye to Harwin, and they're not allowed to actually say goodbye to each other. So Emma just has to make their face do the entire thing for us, and I just thought that was really incredible. Love watching Little Jace. tracking all that in real time. With their 80s, bold cuts, I love those kids.

Oh, yeah. The seat is strong indeed. I had a lot of scenes in this episode that I really liked. I had some nits to pick as well, but favorites, oh, you know, I loved really everything that we got with Allison and Reneira across the episode. I think the small council moment where they're going from challenging each other on policy and really not only issuing some portents about the future, but also signs and portents, Joe, our fave. Also showing their differing leadership styles, but the

many different layers at play when Renira makes her peace offering, this version of, okay, reaching out with this olive branch, but also this is the same desperation that we saw with Vassaris when he went to High Tide last episode and everybody sniffed out, which Allison does here too. The way that we tracked that thread across the entire episode was to highlight. I think in terms of my favorite scene, though, I really loved the training sequence in the yard with Kristen and Harwin and the boys and 8,000-year-old somehow still alive, Viserius, watching and smiling. Awesome scene.

Alongside Lionel from the battlements and then his face just slowly melting like a candle or like a tower at Harenha. as he realizes, oh my God, something's really wrong here. I think it felt like a vintage classic throne scene where so many characters are mixing into this little cesspool of bitterness and resentment. And so that was my favorite. And I think like while not every aspect of the time jump worked

and while I think some people will have a lot of questions, literally including who are some of these characters and how did they come to be in this show and how did they come to be together, a scene like that, I think. doesn't work, or even a moment like Lainor and Reneer walking into and out of Allison's chambers

past Kristen. Scenes like that don't work as well if we don't understand those characters' history with Kristen and Kristen with them, etc. So I think it's emblematic of why, even though it's not perfect and might have been a half measure, those five episodes were ultimately necessary.

You know, a lot of thronesy stuff happens in this episode, and I'll be really curious to see how people feel about it because on Thrones, when a big character death happens, when a big twist happens, when a big fight happens, typically we've spent 8, 10, 12, 15 hours with that character. We spent 40 minutes with Harwin, maybe.

Like, we did not know this version of Lena Valerian. You know, like, and she obviously, like, I didn't even get to that in the recap, but she had, you know, this incredibly tragic end to her life. And I liked it. I thought it visually was stunning. I thought it was dramatic, but I can't say that we're talking about Thrones level of motions

because typically you had this level of investment with these particular performance playing these particular roles. I'll just shout out. We talked a little bit about Olivia Cook in the beginning of the episode, but you know, we talked a little, and you also mentioned the writing mal of the Harwin, Kristen training sequence.

I thought Olivia Cook was just great. Across the board in this episode, Allison, obviously a divisive character. There are people who are like, I totally get why she's mad. Some people are like, why is she making such a big deal out of this, that or the other thing?

Did Reneer a lie? Did she not? Should Reneer be the one who's mad because Allison's the one who married her dad? There's a lot of very complicated stuff, but she just did a great job of doing things like expressing the vulnerability, but also the hostility that comes probably

with being a person in her position. I thought that the scene with Agon, while hilarious, because he's masturbating out of a window, was also quite stunning because she's just like, when he's like, well,

I just won't challenge the throne. And she's like, you are the challenge. You know, like, just your existence is like, it puts a target on your back. And then later on in the episode

when she's talking with Laris, and she's like, I just wish my dad was here to give like unbiased counsel to the king. He's like, well, your dad wasn't unbiased or impartial.

And he was like, he was partial to me. Like, I need somebody to be on my side. And it's cool. you watch her go through this episode and there's a version of it where it's just like, Allison just being like essentially some hybrid of, of Little Finger and Tyrion and kind of Searzy and Serzy and moving everybody into place.

But instead it's like you get to see all different sides of her. And I think that's a testament to Cook's performance. And I think the Circe comp is, I think, a really popular one for Allison. But watching her sort of grab Agon's face and say you're the challenge, Like, we never saw Searcy do that even to Joffrey, you know, and then like, unless Mallory remember something that I'm forgetting. And then to watch her tenderness with Helena, who, you know, Mallory and I were texting before we started recording is giving us the strongest Luna Lovegood vibes we've ever

seen off a character, just like a real, you know, interesting case, Helena and her, she looks, Alison looks bored but is also patient. You know, like, as I imagine, we're not parents, none of us on this call, but like, you know, if your kid gets really into bugs, I guess you sit there and listen to them talk about the bugs patiently. So, you know, the complexity of her role as a mother in this, I think, is really nuanced and great. Yeah. I mean, Mallory, can we talk a little bit about Alison Renair's relationship? Sure. Because it feels like there's been almost like this, I don't know if it's trading places or a transference, but, you know, when we're introduced to these characters,

Renira is strident, confident, wants to be this change, just this kind of progressive leader. And she's not expecting to be made queen, but once she does, I think she starts to realize the enormity of the role. And obviously she's been led in on this secret

that Viseras probably hasn't even shared with his wife. And Allison is a nail-biting wallflower who gets kind of plucked out of nowhere to be the queen of Westeros. Now they seem to have flipped. Allison runs this shit and Reneira is kind of a little bit more of an outcast

and it is like a little is prone more to like sort of social faux pos and like her business is sort of on front street. What did you think of the two of them? But like specifically is there anything I need to know or the listeners need to know about what could have transpired in the 10 years since we've last seen these characters

to now? Or is it just like it's always been cold it's just always been like this. They've been basically biting at each other for 10 years. First of all, you call me Mallory instead of Mal, I always feel like I'm in trouble.

Just wanted to note that. There is a lot that happens in this time. I think it will be worth highlighting a couple specifics for some of the characters we lost, specifically Lena and Harwin when we get to them later, and obviously they connect to then other character arcs and pairings as well. You know, for Alicent and Renira,

I guess it's just worth spelling out the new arrivals in the family. So Reneira is a mother of three now. Gisarius, who goes by Jace, Luceris, who goes by Luke. And I know you're delighted by that, Chris, because you don't want to learn the complicated name. So you got a Luke in there.

It's even spelled the normal way. It's not even like LUC, L-U-K-E. And Joffrey, little Joph. We had obviously met Agon and Helena as babies. We meet Aemond in this episode for the Allison Viser. child set, get sequences at the dragon pit,

etc. See these kids interact with each other. I like the way that you framed it, Chris, with something that feels almost like an inversion. I think that even within that, there's a lot of nuance and we see the characters moving in and out of different circumstances across the episode. But so much of our early time with Rainira,

for example, was spent with her really rebelling against this idea of marriage as a trap and an institution, childbirth, as a death sentence. And so for our first moment with this new version of Renera to be bringing a child into the world, Joffrey is in her arms in so many sequences across the episode when she's standing up to make her big pitch at the small council,

she has milk leaking out of her breasts. And Allison, instead of responding to her offer, just says, Renira and forces her to basically sit down in needless and cool shame. Allison also never sits. Right. Right. When Viceris tells everyone else to sit,

Allison and Reneira are the two who stand. So this dynamic of Reneira, on the one hand, you could read that opening scene where Allison summons the new baby to be brought her, obviously, to inspect the features and the hair, and is this another bastard son of Harwin Strong? You could read an element of right away, Allison is in command and in charge.

Also, with the stubbornness for Reneer of refusing to allow her to win, or to make her feel like she is not in power. There are so many fascinating and really, like, harrowing elements to that relationship. I think it was such an interesting Allison episode because she has those dynamics with every character. It's there with Renair across the entire episode. It's very present in her exchanges with Viseris.

We see Allison sitting at the small council chamber. She is in essence ruling for him, unafraid to speak and make decisions. And everybody, she calls the session to an end. Everybody is wrapped up in what she is saying, right? So we can see the extent of the hold that she has, not only over Vassaris, even though he pushes and challenges a bit,

kind of like laments how he's being fussed over. You look at the element of her as a caretaker. She puts him in that chair, fluffes his pillow, wraps him in the blanket, but as soon as she's pissed that he won't listen to her and won't heed her warning about how dangerous the parentage of these children could be,

how offensive it is to her sense of virtue and rightness. She just lives like, can you help me? She just pieces out, right? She has these incredible exchanges with all of her children. I thought that the drag,

you already talked about the Agon sequence, which was iconic. And I would just like to say, we see already with the masturbating out of the window and the leering at the maids in the courtyard that Agon is a horn dog.

But how fucked up is this kid's sex life going to be moving forward when he's like holding his erection in his hand and his mother is just, Leaning forward, grabbing him on his little floor mattress in his masterbatorium, her, everything she says to him.

Masterbatorial. She says to him in that conversation is what Otto said to her. The royal masterbatorium, exactly. Everything that Allison says is the speech that Otto gave to Allison in episode five when he was departing. Like the exact sentiment has something she is internalized and is espousing. So in some ways, they've each become their parent, even though they are still totally individual and unique characters. And I thought it was fascinating when she was pushing Amand on his obsession with the dragons because it's a quiet, quick moment, not quiet, but it's a quick moment. It reinforces, and so does like having the children dressed in Hightower Green instead of Targaryen red, that she is not a Targaryen.

This is this other element inside of this aspect of the family, which is really important. And then, you know, we got all of the Laris Kristen elements to, these guys, these men who were in her confidence. And I think the most important thing is that she is espousing and touting throughout the need for decency, stopping in her tracks when Kristen calls Renira a cunt, right? Saying to Laris, this is not what I wanted. The people who are helping her further her end are doing things that challenge the very notion. that is at the heart of what she is saying she is trying to protect. And she has to confront that. Or will she?

I mean, like, the fake propriety, you know, that Allison puts forward and then the horrible people that she surrounds herself with. I like how that stands in contrast to Reneer, you know, dragging her, like, afterbirth blood through the halls or, like, leaking milk. Yeah. Or, like, leaking milk in the small council. It reminds us, of course, of her, like, walking in from the hunt with the boar blood all over her. Like, there's a part of her that is still very much the same.

But who is she surrounding herself with, you know, like people who seem much, you know, better. She's surrounded herself with Carl. I love Carl. Good old Carl. Like, Llanar and Harwin, like, they've got a cool open marriage. Like, you know, it's just like. Yeah, Carl just likes a party. Yeah.

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That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs. store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring, save at Whole Foods Market. Joe, you mentioned the people that Allison's surrounding herself with. And I was personally struck with just how tender Kristen's still feeling these days. After 10 years down the line, I don't want to keep repeating the question where I'm like, well, what's happened in the 10 years?

am I just supposed to read that that's calcified and that he has become a very bitter guy who also owes his life to Allison but plays into her most jealous or most like sort of angry kind of tendencies when it comes to an era? I don't often mind holding back spoilers so they want people to like get the news

when they want to get it from the show but I have been biting my tongue about Kristen Cole because that dude is a psychopath like when he grabs. Yeah and he's he's just like like a hot guy. Yeah. And we've been blinded by that.

And I just want to be like, no. When he grabs Jace in the training yard and just sort of like yanks him around, you know, it's like, and like, let's look at this thing. He says, the princess Reneer is brazen relentless, a spider who stings and sucks her prey dry, spoiled seaward. Like, uh, this guy, you know, we spent some time last week talking about the ways in which he had a reason to feel vulnerable and exposed. But the fact that he holds.

onto it for as long as he does, smells of like real in-cell behavior to me. Like, remember that time a teenage girl said, no, I don't want to give up my entire, like, thrown in life and crown for you. That's what I'm saying. And he's like, you know, Seward for life, I guess. I just, yeah. So the quote in the book, and we don't know the reason why Kristen hates Renier in the book. But the quote in the book is the love that Sir Kristen Cole had formerly born for

Reneer a Targaryen turned to loathing and disdain, and the man who had hitherto been the princess's constant companion and champion became the most bitter of her foes. So I would say, a message received loud and clear in this episode, you know? Yeah. I think like a moment, like that yard training sequence, obviously Harwin probably should have controlled himself a little bit better and things might have gone differently for Dear House, Strong had he. However, it is also true, And I think I love my time with Harwin. Let me just say that. Really got to miss our guy, break bones or burnt bones, as I guess we will now start calling him.

Tough, tough end. Yeah, it's sad. Sad to see him go. Those beautiful curly locks. Baked bones? Baked bones I like. But it's also undeniably true that Kristen is relishing, baiting him. And not only the line like a brother or a son, but the way that as he's sitting there on the ground, bleeding,

he's in this inverted position from where he was when he was pummeling Joffrey in the prior episode. There's a Kristen Harwin fight, but it's at a tournament in the book, and Kristen actually wins. And I think you could read this scene and say, oh, this is like flipping it because Harwin wins. Well, he wins the physical portion, but Kristen wins that encounter. He comes out on top because he got what he wanted. He's spitting blood into the ground saying thought as much, relishing the fact that he has gotten this person who he thinks so little of, who is connected to somebody he deplores to out himself and reveal this scandalous secret.

And he's doing that for Allison, sure. But he is also doing that for himself because it brings him joy to see people he hates miserable. To your question, Chris, about the 10-year time gap. Like, we don't have any information from the book, but something I think this episode underlines for us is that Kristen Cole felt so out of place, so lower class in King's Landing,

even though he's a member of the King's Guard, but 10 years on, and being the Queen's go-to guy, he has this elevated position. So Harwin Strong, who technically is from a higher-born house than he is, et cetera, et cetera, he feels like he can push around.

But my question to you, Chris Ryan, is what do you think the employment policy is in King's Landing that Chris and Cole can beat the face off of someone at a wedding? And also, I don't know, throw the future, the air to the realm around in the training yard, in full view of the king, and still keep his job. How do you feel about that, Chris? So this was, we're getting to a little bit of my nitpick here, which is that this entire thing is sort of, I think, hinging on

the politics of this world, which are not unlike the politics of our world. Let's, like, like, there's lots of rumors, there's lots of gossip. There's lots of innuendo. And here say that fuel, like our politics of our politics. politics. But Allison is just as kind of like sketch as Reneera is to me. You know what I mean? Like there is a world in which Reneer could be like, okay, here's the truth. I had sex with Kristen Cole that night, not Damon. Allison then like basically has like conducted a decade long smear campaign of me. I may be with like this guy, but Allison like basically like took my father away from me as a like a ploy by her father. Like I just think like both sides are pretty

fucked up here. Well, I don't understand how Chris, like, there's no like whisper. Like, Reneer can't ever grab Vassaris and be like, it's kind of weird that your wife's bodyguard is this dude who ruined my wedding, big time, committed murder, and now is just like her bodyguard. And we don't really talk about that. That's like, that is like either like what's missing in this, like, in between episodes part. And I wonder whether some people, other people might trip over it. Because for as much as I loved the, like, drama that I was seeing, it did annoy me where I was just like,

so Reneira has everybody speculating about every single thing she does, the color of her kid's hair, who her bodyguard is, what her husband's doing, yada, yada, yada, yada. Allison just gets off Scott Free with her murdering bodyguard. I mean, I think obviously throughout the episode we feel once again and really feel here how ineffectual Vassaris is as a leader. But I think you're right, Chris, because it's not only that. It's like Lainor, the king consort, and the heir to the richest and other than the actual ruling family of the Targaryen's most powerful family in the realm was punched in the face by this guy who murdered his lover and dear friend.

Obviously, they're naming the child Joffrey here after the night of kisses, after Joffery Lonmouth, RIP. Took Lainor three kids to be allowed to name him Jop. What he got there. has to walk by this guy every day. And so I believe because of how Viseris functions as a ruler and as this person who was constantly at odds and pulled in all directions inside of his own family, that he would not have an effective solution if pressed on that point. But I would like to know, to your point, if anyone had pressed him on it, if anyone had asked

about it, push. There has to, it's just, it is impossible to believe that everyone would just be okay. after what happened with everybody just conducting their affairs in this fashion. It's also a question of like, what is Allison want?

Does she want justice or does she want power? Because when Renera is like, hey, like, let's squash this. We used to be friends. This is bad for the house. I'm going to give you a dragon egg and I am going to marry

my, what, my daughter to your son, right? Or my son to your daughter. I can't remember. My son to your daughter. Yeah. son to your daughter.

And Vassaris is into it. He's the king. And Allison walks off and is like, well, we'll think about it. But you're, you're, you got to go milk. Does Allison want Rainier to be ostracized or killed or like, whatever it is? Like, what is the goal here for Allison, I guess is the question. I think it's a combination of what you just said. She thinks that she's pursuing.

And it ends what Joe said earlier about like, well, will she confront? Will she show that self-awareness and introspection? Because she is saying. to Kristen, to Laris, to herself, to many people throughout the episode, that this is a crusade in defense of virtue and decency almost. And I think that she does sincerely feel that way, but she has begun to do the thing that she used to challenge

and push back against her father and her family for doing, which is to pursue power and to pursue her son, Egon, the path for him to be the heir to the Iron Throne. She is actively pursuing that without question. She is saying to him, you're almost a man grown. How do you not see that these people will try to eliminate you because of the threat that you pose? And I loved the moment.

You mentioned it already, but I loved the moment where she shows this real vulnerability in her conversation with Laris when they're discussing Otto and says, he would be impartial for me, toward me, in my defense, in my favor. Because that is a thing that no matter how much, how righteous she wants to think she is, she is a human being desires. And she says, like, will no one in Kings Landing, help me, align with me? And this idea of her loneliness has fueled her for so long. So she does want power. She does want her side to win. She does want to eliminate. There's no, to your point about like, could Reneer just say, yeah, smear campaign,

hard ones of that, no. Like the realm would not accept it. Look at what happened with the War of the Five Kings and Game of Thrones when people, when the rumors started spreading about, about, about Joffrey being a bastard about Marcella and Tomon being bastards. They would not allow those kids to have a path to the throne. The realm would not allow it. I feel like they might if Vassaris were a stronger ruler. Like there is a world in which maybe, but like slim to no chance and certainly not with Vassaris in charge. Yeah.

And I think also what I love about this episode is it subtly shows us a few ways in which Rennara, Rennara, who was like deprived politic lessons as a kid, has learned politicking. I loved listening to her talk of the small council. And like, if there's anyone in this episode who seems worthy to rule, it's Reneira. And actually, one of my favorite lines is, you know, she's arguing with Lainor about the name Joffrey for the kid, right? And she hasn't conceded yet. Then there's a moment when she says she turns to Lainer and she says, Lainor, Sir Harwin would love to, like, meet Joffrey. So it's a concession to Lainor here.

You get your way. but also please Can you let this guy hold his child? I just thought that was a really smooth moment. There's a lot of smooth moments from her and I think that's a real maturation that we see in her. You know, I was going to wait until the end of the episode to talk about this,

but because you're talking about Harwin and because we've been talking all about who Allison is talking to and surrounding yourself with, let's talk about Laris now. So with Laris, he obviously chooses his family. He chooses a new family because he's essentially had his own family. family murdered.

Essentially. Joe, a little bit. I mean, he does. And I think in the earlier episodes, I was like, this is a guy. He's kind of like left out in the cold because of his limp, because of his leg, he can't fulfill the usual, like, you know, male military duties that's maybe somebody would. But to have your father and brother burned alive is like a step in a much further

direction. What did you kind of, what was your read on? I mean, I assume you know, like, O'Laris becomes this, but is like, like, Larry's just a pure political animal looking for power? Yeah, definitely we won't look forward. But what I will say is that in that 10-year time jump, you know, when we think about what are we missing, and I know Mallory has a decent list, I would say I would have loved to have seen any a scene between Laris and his father, which we never saw. And we saw one scene where, you know, Laris and his brother actually talked to each other. And that's it.

And so I would love to, I would have loved to know more. And the book has no answer for me how Laris feels about his dad and his brother. Obviously not too attached to them, but I would have loved to have seen that dynamic. Because, you know, a huge moment, you were talking about comparing it to Thrones. Like a huge moment in Thrones is Turing, killing his father, Turing killing Tijuana. And it's like, what does this mean? And we know what it, because we've spent years understanding what it meant for Trian to kill Tewan. And so for Laris to make this move, we could draw some conclusions.

But again, I would have loved to have seen some of those interactions. This fire at Heron Hall is one of the really fun mysteries of the book because there's like five different suspects. Mal let me know if I miss any. It's did Vassaris do it? Did King Viseris do it to get rid of Harwin Strong to like quench the scandal? And that was like, shit, Lionel was there too. Oh, no. Did Corlis Valerian do it because his son Lainer was cuckolded by Harwin Strong?

Did the ghost of Haranhall do it because Haran Hall is like... Oh yeah, the blood in the mortar. Yeah, considered haunted. What am I missing? I feel like I'm missing one, Mallory. Damon. Oh, Damon, of course. We always suspect Damon of killing any.

If anyone's eyes, Damon is to blame. So did Damon do it to get Harbin out of the way to... And of course, Larvice is also... Yeah, and Laris is a suspect. But he's like the last and wildest suspect. They're like, maybe Laris Strong, I guess. And so, you know, this episode made it very overt that it was Laris who did it. So, yeah, that's just one of the fun aspects of this adaptation is that we're getting answers to the lingering mysteries in the book.

Now, Laris just has access to incarcerated West Dorosie like that. Once again, I have some notes for our guy, Laris Strong. I, first of all, I just want to say I strongly agree with what Joe said about feeling the missing time there in a tough way. Like, we saw Harwin and Laris at the wedding feast, like whispering to each other about what the green dress meant. And then the next thing is him burning his brother alive. Like, Kinsling's a huge deal. It is among the gravest sins you can commit. This is, like, not a small thing.

So the fact that he is willing to do that, I would really like to better understand. why cutting out a tongue so that the people in question can't speak it's been done before or more accurately in the future as well like you know i know you miss your guy you're on grayjoy chris the ship wasn't called silence for nothing cut out all the tongues but if you want to ensure that people don't rat you out and yes joanna we should talk about the rat at some point because the rat is back we'll talk about don't show your face and go make the plea directly and then don't put your B emblem that is on your cane on their chest. That was a weird move.

The pins. Branded is your murderer crew. Yeah, the pins I have a lot of question about. But, like, Laris is in the book. He's what's called the King Confessors, which is basically like the Royal Torturers. So this is technically his job. He gets to go down there and cut people's tongues out if he wants. And falls under his management.

Exactly. Exactly. It's in his purview. But the B pins. The B pin. Got some notes. I loved, though, the closing speech, the voiceover for a few different reasons. I know you did, though.

Joe knows exactly what I'm going to say here. I was like, so first of all, just phenomenal line reading, great writing. This is the relationship between Laris and Allison. You're like, boy, are you having these candle at dinners every single night where, you know, he's obviously passing along this information that he's hearing. And they've built up this trust to the point where. somebody walks in the room, everyone stops speaking. This is a true cone of silence relationship. And to see him at the end.

Yeah, if I was Renair, I'd be like, what's up with this shit? You guys are getting crazy mad at me. I don't know. I don't know if you bring up someone else's relationship with one of the strong sons as a general matter of a principle. He's playing with this plant as he's speaking at the end. And it's the same. It appears to be at least.

a, yes, a little snippet of this, this bush that he is, this bravoci fauna that he's making this big speech about in the prior episode to show how not only he, but someone like Allison, could thrive in circumstances where they're not meant to. But that speech, this what are children but a weakness of folly, a futility? It gave us, it gave us shades of so many prior iconic Game of Thrones quotes. There's just a few of them. One, it's the inversion of Tywin's.

fabled, do you know what legacy is speech? Because the whole idea for Taiwan of legacy is that it's what you pass on to your children, right? It's what remains of you when you're gone? And Laris is saying, what if the thing that you pass on to your children, or rather the fact that you were worried about that specifically is what leads you astray? This is a really interesting and compelling idea to flip that on its head. The ultimate Zach. Whereas big zag guy. And then this idea of you may know, know what is the right thing to be done, but love stays the hand, love is a downfall. This is the classic thing we talk about all the time.

Amon's love is the death of duty idea, but there's this real like purity and heartache driving it when Amon and John discuss it in Thrones. And there's something so like malicious and frightening about the way that Laris is saying it. And I found myself thinking of Varis saying of Littlefinger, he would see this country burn if he could be king of the ashes, like literally now the Lord of Hemp. Harin Hall on a pile of ashes. So we got all of those connections, which was really rich and fun. And we're cutting to all the other characters and scenes that this is about.

Renira arriving at Dragonstone, Damon and Pentos, the Haranol sequence, etc. And what's interesting is in that same sequence, as he's invoking Littlefinger, he also calls himself a servant of the realm, which is what Varus would always call himself. You know, and I'm like, are you? So at the end of that scene, at the end of this episode, I, I think most charitable, even a charitable read of that is that he is blackmailing her. Because he says, are you going to write your father? I was curious whether that meant to invite him back to court because now there's a help wanted sign for Hand of the King.

Is it because I want your dad to know that I looked out for the Hightower family at the expense of my father and my brother? And I expect to be sort of made well for that. What was your read of his intention there? You feel like he wanted it to read to Tell Otto I want him to know it was me. Yeah, it was kind of like that. Game recognizes game. Oh my God.

I knew meme. I love it. I feel like it's the help wanted aspect is part of it. But also, I mean, he overtly says, I am confident that you will reward me, you know, when you can. So there is a bit of, I think, blackmail in there. And also, yeah, I just, Allison's sort of like mock horror or, you know, whatever.

I'm just like, what, who did you think you were dealing with this whole time? What are you playing at Allison's in this scene, you know? Let's talk a little bit about two characters that we love and lost this episode. So specifically, Lena Valarian and, I mean, we've talked a lot about Harwin, but I want to talk about Lena because we find her and Damon at an interesting point in their lives. Damon seems to have adapted to life on vacation. You know, he's quiet, quit being a bastard and like lighting people up and killing crab feeders and everything. He just wants to read. He wants to hang out in Pentos, have dinners, be told he's the best. It means loaning out a dragon

from time to time. So be it. But she really wants to get back to Drift Mart. She wants to get back to like where she feels comfortable. She wants her child to be born there, et cetera. I thought it was like, we talked about in the beginning of the pod, Mal, like I thought it was quite a moving scene, but I also was like, it feels like we really got like 11 minutes of screen time with this character. Everything about this episode to me,

and maybe this is just because where my interests lie, are pushing Damon and Renera back together. But what did you think of the Damon and Lena Valerian stuff? This is where I would like to spend a moment or two talking about things I wish we'd seen, if you'll allow it.

Because I think that Lena is one of the characters who really suffered from the time jump here. And I'm, I'm bummed. I really wish we'd gotten more time with Lena and with Lena and Damon. And to see how this union came to be, obviously we get the, you know, making eyes at the high table and the dancing and that fun flirtatious conversation at the welcome feast in episode five. But that's it.

Ten years in the future, we're not only saying hello, we're saying goodbye. So I love a dragon, Chris. I know you also love a dragon, and I'm sure you carefully tracked how many new dragons we were introduced to in the story, not only visually, but by mention. I so badly, one of the things that Joe and I have been talking about for weeks, I so badly wanted to see Lena claim Vagar.

Like, we cannot overstate the magnitude of claiming Vagar as your dragon. Vigar is the oldest living dragon in the world, the biggest was Vesnia, one of Agon's sister wives. That was Vesenia's dragon, Baylon, Vesaris, and Damon's dragon. Like, this is a huge thing. And what's strange to me

is that we got these mentions, like a lot of Vagar mentions in early episodes, including Lena asking about Vagar. And we'd hear the song at Spicestown, which is on Driftmark. I wanted to see it. And I was confused why it hadn't happened because when the Lena Vassaris match is proposed in Fire and Blood,

she's a Dragon Rider. It's like it could have happened earlier in the story, and I just wish we'd be like 12, right? 12-year-old, yeah, she's such a badass. She takes Vagar at 12. Here she says she didn't take Vagar until she was 15. That's fine. But we still just never got to see her claim this massive scary dragon.

It would have been very cool. I really, really wanted that. And I think it also would have made, you know, that end sequence even more. impactful. With the Damon marriage, just to mention in case anyone's wondering, in fire of blood, that bravocey betrothal that we heard about happens. Lina is engaged to someone else, and then Corliss just keeps delaying, delaying, and eventually Damon makes his way in and kills that kid who challenges him to single combat. I can't believe we were cheated out of another Damon single combat sequence. But the thing I really wanted to mention, and Joe, I suspect this was

on your mind as well, is that in Fire and Blood, Ramira, and Lena are super close. They have like a really rich relationship to the point where when Lena is in childbirth again, Reneer goes to be with her and is there when she dies. Like, I just, I'm

sad that we did not get that time with the character and really, really, really wish that we had. I also, what I really like, again, is they try to sort of shade demon as gray as they can, given all the things that he actually does.

in the book and the show. The line in the book is Prince Damon fell in love with Lena. The singers would have us believe. Men of a more cynical bent believe the prince are as a way to check his own descent. Basically, ally himself with the House Fularean,

which has a lot of money. What I like in this episode is, you know, we hear Lena say, I know it wasn't your first choice for wife, but we also see genuine affection from him for her. He's not treating her shittily. They have, like, yeah, they have a bond. in a relationship.

And so I think that's... We've seen Damon treat wives worse. Let's put it that way. Yeah, sure have. I guess the bar was on the floor for Damon to be a good husband. But it also... It's all upside from here. But it also reminds...

You ask about this idea of Damon seems... It doesn't want to go back home. He's uninterested. Like, maybe he doesn't have... He doesn't have the taste for politicking is the sense we get. And it reminds me of... I mean, this is like a trope that, like, the gunslinger hangs up his guns and goes settled down on the homestead with the wife and a family, and then someone comes in and murders

them all, and he's like, well, I guess, I mean, the best example I could think of is Magneto and the terrible X-Men apocalypse movie, but there are better, better versions of that trope. But I feel like this is, you know, Damon's attempt at hanging up his guns and just being like, maybe I can be this. Maybe I can be a husband and a dad. Not the best dad, because I only pay attention to my daughter who has a dragon, but, you know, a dad. teaching new languages to Bela because she's a dragon rider and Rana's just like,

Dad ignores me as I hold my egg in front of a fire praying that it will one day hatch. Damon! Yeah. Was I right to read some parallels between obviously, I mean, it was pretty clear. And obviously, you know, Vesaris made the choice to try and save the baby

at the expense of Emma. This, in this case, Damon at least doesn't say, save the baby. I don't care about my wife. He's kind of in the process of thinking about it when she makes the decision for him and goes out in a literal blaze of glory

the way she wanted to as a Dragon Rider, right now? Yeah, we hear earlier in the episode, at my end, I want to die a Dragon Rider's death, not that of some fat country lord. And I will, so I will say this. It's a dark scene. We're watching on screeners. I definitely want to revisit this

and make sure that we have this completely right. I'm looking forward to checking this and confirming this before we do House of our. But my, when, when Damon is asked this, you're right, Chris,

we don't, we definitely don't hear him say, yeah, go for it. He's in silence thinking, it looks like maybe he does a little shake in a head, no. Yeah.

But I also think we cut to Laina, and it seems that the camera lingers on Lina for a moment. In a way that implied, it's at least possible she hears this. exchange and decides perhaps because of hearing that, well, I'm not going to leave this up to anybody else. But regardless of that particular interpretation, she wants to die not in the birthing bed. And we've heard throughout the series, this idea, the royal wombs from Emma in the first episode, and the child bed is the battlefield. And that's manifesting in so many ways,

not only, of course, the women who do die in childbirth, but the way they're the children who enter the world are then part of this battlefield and part of this war in the succession crisis. So that idea is stretching throughout the story in all directions. But Lena did not want to leave anything up to anybody else there. And I thought one of the really, you know, hearing the way that she is calling out to, and we see, we see Damon run after her and the look of like horror and sadness on his face when he sees Vagar's flames consume her. I do think you can read that as he would have made a different choice than Vassaris. I also think, again, you can read it as Lena wasn't going to wait to find out.

So when she's calling out to Vagar time after time after time saying Jekar, there's this like cry from Vagar and this moment where we see this bond between rider and dragon. And it's so, so sad because in fire and blood, one of the details is that she tried. She had been in this state of fever for three days. The baby is born, malformed, and dies. And Lena is gravely ill on her deathbed and tries to go reach Vagar and can't. And Damon finds her on a staircase where she died. So the fact that she was able to reach Vagar was, I think, probably an improvement over the version that we got there in the book. I think also were meant to think of Emma when I believe Aseris is looking at her ring.

when he's like sitting in front of his model. And he's like, and he's like, my current wife is really mean. Remember when I had a nice wife? And that happens. And I love, I love what he said Mal about this. Where he's the rat, by the way, that moment. Yeah, it is. The generational, there was a line that stood out to me in this section of the book,

which is a very short section of the book. But like, there's this line, the sins of the fathers are off to visit on the sons. And I think, I thought of that most clearly in that course. courtyard scene when we see Harwin and Kristen using the boys to sort of work out their own issues. And these boys, which, you know, Agon's a little shit, but like what I like is that none of these boys are Joffreys, at least not yet. You know, I think we see. I think I was definitely waiting for like some pulling the wings off of butterflies behavior. And it just more seemed like, he just would have shot somebody with a crossbow.

Yeah, exactly. So they're just like, they're boys at this point and they're being pushed and pulled. in various directions, just like their mothers were. So episode ends. We've got Reneer heading to Driftmark. We've got Laris establishing a new foothold with Allison. We've got Vassaris kind of isolated and alone. And Damon, you know, really just doing some top-notch fathering, just kind of letting his kids soak up the grief there on the wall

and just be like, you know what, you'll thank me later. I'm going to go. Yeah, you two figure this out. Any closing thoughts? Like, we haven't seen scenes from next week, so we don't know whether we're going to get another time jump. But I, for one, I would love it if episode seven picks up, like, the second six ends. Like, if we just literally get, like, Reneiro finding out Harwin's dead. And, you know, Alison, finding out Reneer's left.

And Damon be like, I guess I'm going to go to Drift Mark or whatever. I would also love that. I would also love that. We didn't mention Vermax, another dragon. We got to meet. We see Jace's dragon, little sweet little Vermax. darling little Vermex that needed a snack

and boy did he get one there and, you know, we learn that there are other dragons in the mix beyond that. Vagar and Vermex are the two we see but we hear Sunfire mention that's Agon's dragon. And so Reneira's kids

can't get them to Dracarus because they don't have that special Targary and cheese. No, no, no, no. Chase can. He says Dracarus and his command works and we see also that Luke is there

and thus also we understand Luke is paired with a dragon. They say, that Amid is the only one who doesn't have a dragon. So that's kind of the clarity, right, that everybody else does. And we see as well that Jason Luke have picked an egg for joff, sweet little joff. And we also have an egg with Raina,

the Damon and Lena's other daughter. So we have a lot of new dragon energy in the mix here, which is cool. I wish we would see a little bit more of the actual initial moments with the dragons, but that's why it was fun to see the training. with Jason Vermax there. And yeah, Chris, I'm glad you asked that because there's actually a lot of the parentage rumor mongering and whispers in the books

like kind of boils down to their, those eggs are not going to patch for those plain featured brown-haired children. And they do. So the fact that Jace has Vermax, etc., is something that quiets those whispers. And what's wild is that they're as, they have as much Targaryen in their blood.

as the blonde the blonde kids do. They're both half Targaryen. Let me tell you one more wish I have. Yeah. Joe. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice with this triarchy.

Yep. And shame on George R. Martin. You know? These guys better. Dorn mentions. Yeah, you got a door mention. You got a door. Represent. I want nothing but triarchy next episode.

that. Like a triarchy bottle episode? It's the Charlie Brown football. You can't keep introducing it. It's like if you keep mentioning the triarchy, let me get like the ambassador of the triarchy comes and talks to somebody. It's just, we have to have it. Do you agree or disagree, Joe? We got a mention of this like wild figure from the books. Lainor mentions a Tyrahi general who dyes his hair purple and wears women's frocks. This is a, oh, and a giant, I think is what he calls him. This is Rekali-O-Run. Dune. Like what a name, a Tyrosi Captain General. So I don't

feel like they're going to drop the mention and not show us this guy, I hope. So I don't know the answer. Chris, genuinely, I don't. They could or they could not, but I hope for your sake. We get that. That's the only reason I'm still watching. Triarchy bottle episode just for Chris, Ryan.

I love it. Mal, Joe, it was great talking to you about House of the Dragon. People can listen to Mallory and Joanna talk about House of the Dragon extensively on House of Ar. The Deep Dive on Tuesdays. Andy and I are taking tomorrow off for the holiday, but we'll be back on Tuesday. We'll be talking a little bit of House of Dragon. We'll be talking about some other shows, Abbott Elementary at sets. But, you know, like we'll definitely have some Westerosie

gabbing going on. And then we'll be back with you everybody next Sunday night for the next episode. So thanks so much to Steve Aldman for producing us as always. And thanks to Mal and Joe. We'll talk to you soon. Feels like every product claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source. Like real California milk from California farm families, it's real dairy delivering high quality, complete protein, with all nine essential amino acids to help build muscle,

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