The Ringer-Verse - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 7 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Keep a sharp eye and get ready to dive deep into the seventh episode of 'House of the Dragon' with Mal and Joanna! First, they give their brief overall impressions of this important episode (06:08). Then, they dive into the Dragonpit and go deep into the plot details and analysis of the episode (14:41). Later, they give out the episode's awards, as well as look into book spoilers and see what they can predict for the future (02:47:43). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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I. What was I done? But what was expected of me? Forever, appalling the kingdom, the family, the law. Will you flout it all to do you please? Alison, let her go.

Where is duty, where his sacrifice, is trampled under your pretty foot again. Release the blade, Alison. And now you take my son's fight and to even that you feel entitled. Exhausting, wasn't it? Hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness.

And welcome into the ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to high tide, but also to join us on the ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me we play an ugly game, and now for the first time, she sees that I have the determination to win it. It's my house of our work. Jeanne Robinson.

I think it's fitting that that just keeps getting spookier and spookier, considering we are now in October. Yeah. Yeah. Need to really draw it out like a ghost whispering, working title. Next week we'll break out our ghoul. You know?

Yeah. Halloween nears. Working title. Wow. We are here today, of course, to dive. A dap into House of the Dragon episode seven. Drift Mark, written by Kevin Loud, directed by Miguel Sopachnik. But before we stroll down to a private patch of beach, some programming reminders.

The Midnight Boys. We'll be back with you tomorrow to break down episode five of Andor. What an incredible television show. cannot wait for that pod. On Thursday, Ben Lindbergh will be back to chat about She-Hulk. Episode 8, the penultimate she-hulk. On Friday, speaking of pan-ultimate episodes,

Joe and I will be back with the House of Our Deep dive into episode seven of Rings of Power. Already, episode seven, I cannot believe it. Where is the time gone? So sad. And then on Sunday, Joanna and I will be back with the Lord Commander of our King's Guard.

Christopher Ryan, Sir Chris. And thank you to everyone who's tweeting at us after this episode seven, Talk the Thrones, to spell Chris with a cue. Thank you. Keep it coming. I hadn't seen those. That's incredible.

That will, of course, be Talk the Thrones on Hot D. Episode 8. Joe, how can the people follow all of that? Well, I really wish they would just do themselves a solid and subscribe to the podcast on any platform they prefer, but maybe Spotify, make it Spotify. If they do so also, I should mention one thing. I mean, there's plenty that you just mentioned,

but I heard a rumor that Van Leithin and I are talking a little werewolf by night this week as well. Do you know my first pod ever with Van, and also the first time I ever talked to Van was a Halloween pod last year? So I'm really excited to get back into the horror lane with Van. Yeah, full circle. Yeah, so follow a podcast. But also, we're on... What social media platform do you use?

Is it perhaps Mallory's favorite peach? Or could it possibly be one that people still actually use? Like Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, at Ring reverse on all of those. Follow all of those feeds. And most especially, if you're Mallory Rubin's mother, cherish beloved mother of our mother of dragons, you can email us Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com I wish you would.

I wish you would. Just email us hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Great emails this week as always. But you guys are just like really killing it

on the email front. So thank you so much. Keep the Raven scrolls coming. Including scrolls about the Baltimore Ravens current season. I am most interested in those emails.

Last programming reminder, bear in mind, of course, is always our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning today. Because this chat, this here podcast will feature plot details from the most recent episode of Hot D. That's the seventh episode, Drift Mark, all of House of the Dragon to date. Anything from Game of Thrones is on the table. On the book front, we will be incorporating book canon from a song of ice and fire and fire and blood throughout the pod for historical context, parallels, lore insights, et cetera, but anything that comes in the future in fire and blood, we will be saving for a separate section at the end of the pod. You will have another spoiler warning on the brink of that. Okay. Yeah. It's time for our opening snapshot. It's time to rally the realm.

Oh, God. Joe? Yeah. Quick overall impressions of episode seven, Drift Mark. What'd you think? So I really liked it. I liked this episode a great deal. I thought it was an excellent, excellent showcase for, you know, our adult actors, especially. And the kids are phenomenal, too. We will talk about the visuals in a second, but I just want to say that, like, I didn't have a problem. I don't know what to tell you. I didn't have a problem with it.

And it wasn't until a couple hours before the episode was going to drop that I started to hear from people. that this was going to be a big talking point. And then it did feel like it swallowed the conversation of the episode itself in a kind of frustrating way. But I thought the script was phenomenal. A lot of big things happened here, obviously, a lot of shifting power movements. And then, like, I think it's no coincidence. And we talked about this on Talk to Thrones a little bit on Sunday.

No coincidence that so many of the lines from the trailer that we got for the season were from this episode. And I think partially that's because I think they shot this one. one first, but also just there's just juice everywhere. Juice all over the place. What did you think, Mallory? Is that a fun, cool

cool thing to say, juice everywhere? As you like to say sometimes, phrasing. Oh, God. Tell me. Oh, God. Wow, that's a record. We're not even 10 minutes in and we've earned our first Dear Me from Steve.

But like, why wasn't bees invited to the funeral? That's my question. Where's my guy Beesbury when you need him, you know? I know. He would have had a lot to say. He would have had a lot to add to the soundboard if he had been invited to Driftmark, alas. And when Viseris confuses Allison for Emma, maybe Beesbury would have felt seen and known in Dementia Town. Anyway, what were you going to say about this episode?

You mentioned how many lines of this episode come from the trailer. Joe, I love a trailer, as you know. And that was just a thrill to see all of those little delicious glances and sound bites that we had parsed for clues right here stitched together. This was my favorite episode of the season and contained a handful of my favorite scenes from the season overall, the week, everything with Damon and Runira, Amid claiming Vagar and I for an eye. I mean, a lot of the things that I was looking forward to the most are in this episode and really enjoyed it. Also just felt like the episode had a momentum and a flow and a crispness that was drastically enhanced because we didn't have to deal with another time jump here. It was similar to how I felt about episode five coming right on the heels of episode four. Like, no time has passed between episode six and seven.

We just pick up. And that really does help to enhance the sensation that we are just living inside of these characters' lives rather than having to really drastically reset. So I think that picking up right where we had left off was a big part of why I enjoyed this so much in addition to just the substance of the scenes themselves. Should we talk for a second, though, about the fact that they have made another episode of Game of Thrones that nobody could see? Tough. Like, I, oh, God. I mean, we didn't have that problem. The issue that I remember you telling me off the screeners was that you couldn't hear anything,

not that you couldn't see anything. So like, God. I could barely hear the first like 20 minutes of the episode. It was a lot better when I rewatched and replayed. It was easier to make out the dialogue and then certainly a lot better on Sunday night. But I had some trouble with the opening stretches that were set by the water hearing. It reminded me a bit of when they have a date on The Bachelor or The Bachelorette that's next to a waterfall or in the ocean. You just can't hear anything anybody says.

Maybe that was just me, though, because I haven't really seen people talking about this. And I wouldn't say that hearing is my greatest strength. On the visual front, the darkness of the episode, I often really struggle with this. And it freaks me out when there are large stretches of episodes that I can't see. I've told you this before. I've shared this with our listeners before. one of the most anxiety-inducing podcasting stretches of my career in my life was the long night. Of course, this is a infamous episode of Thrones on the lighting front.

We were watching it at our office to immediately go do Talk the Thrones Live. And I was like, how can I go live and talk about something that I couldn't see? Does anyone know who's a live episode? Oh, my God. So stressful. So it's something that I'm prone to struggling with. I think it really helped me that I got a warning from our colleagues, Riley, McAtee and Zach Cram, who both watched the screener during the daytime and had an issue with it, sent me a warning.

I watched this at like 11 o'clock at night at a pitch dark room with a properly calibrated TV and I had no issues at all. However, I would like to acknowledge that you shouldn't demand of your audience that sort of viewing set up in order for people to be able to see. So I did not have an issue and I was relieved, but a lot of people did. and that's not good. That's a problem. And I, you know, I've seen, like, the photos that they took or the videos that they took of their screen. Like, for some people, however, their TV is calibrated, however, the particular compression rate came through on the streaming or, you know, whatever the light source was, had issue watching. And, like, again, we've talked over and over about how you can set yourself up to win to watch something like this. But I am a little astonished that Miguel Sapachnik, who directed this episode and also directed the long night, would find himself in this bind once again, especially because we have, I know that they shot this day for night.

And we know that because we've seen promo photos of the scene on the beach and it is blaring sunlight, right? And also you can just tell by watching that they shot it day for night. And there are ways in which perhaps the darkness helps cover, you know, makes Vagar look even better because the digital effect looks even better at night. I could see that. I'm just kind of shocked that we're here again after all the protestations after the long night. And again, like that was such an... I had a really hard time seeing the long night.

And I remember a bunch of our friends were at a... a guild's greeting that they did where they showed the long night I think it like Gromans like that one of the major theaters in downtown L.A. And they were like, it looked amazing.

And you're like, okay, I'm sure it did it. I rewatched the long night now in 4K at home and ideal conditions. I'm like, this is incredible. But that's not how people

necessarily consume TV when they're sitting down on a Sunday night. Exactly. Oe, it was really, it was something to track the HBO Macs Twitter replies on.

Oh my God. Well, they were ready. I mean, that's the thing is like I had heard I had heard from some people on the inside that they were braced for. And I heard about it a couple hours before. And that's why I was like tweeting a couple hours before like close your drinks. Make sure your settings are good. Like whatever.

So yeah, they were braced. They were ready. They had that copy paste reply. Yeah. Ready for Twitter. Steve is going to do the same thing when people tweeted us. say, why is this pod three hours? Steve will reply, this was an intentional creative decision. Creative decision.

Tell me. Oh, God. God's being good. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and Company coffee creamers. How do you take your coffee? Piping hot, ice, strong, frothy. But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip, try Two Good Good and Company creamers. They're made with farm-fresh cream and real milk. each serving has just three grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers.

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It does not matter. Steve, will you do me a favor? When we stop doing House of the Dragon go back to like Annor or whatever, like can we find a way to keep the Mallory Dragon Screech on the sound word? I will do my utmost. I promise. Thank you. I believe in you. Now we have a Joe Dragon Screech.

Oh yeah, but it's not nearly as good. It's not like from the bottom of your soul. House of Remixed Screeches, you know? Has a ring to it. Rolls right off the tongue. Working title, indeed. Oh, God. All right.

We will, of course, be going chronologically today because we don't want to miss a thing. Steve? Why do you do this to me? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to say? Wow. Stephen Tyler has declined the invitation to a funeral at Drift Mark. It's no respect.

I don't know how I could like make the sound effect of a subpoena, but okay. Okay. Well, we will begin where the episode begins at Lena's funeral. Everyone has gathered on Drift Mark. No time has passed between episodes. And here begins. There are other scenes where this is an even richer text, but here begins our close and careful tracking of who is standing next to whom,

who is looking at whom with some side eyes or some longing glances. This is a rich text across this entire. hour of TV on that front. Joe, we got to glimpse for the first time Valarian funeral rights. This was a really interesting thing to see. Yeah, and I'm sure the like, well, we know because there are so many like worn down sarcophagy at the bottom of the ocean here that the sarcophagus pole is a common practice. However, I'm not sure that this was a typical eulogy that you get at a Valerian funeral, right? No kidding.

So our guy, Vamont, Corliss's brother, in the show, brother, leading the ceremony, speaking Valerian, shouting out the Merling King, as one does, if you're a member of House Valerian. And his service, very notably was just laden with language about pure bloodlines and true born heirs. Subtle this was not. The Lady Lena leaves two. true-born daughters on the shore. Though their mother will not return from her voyage,

they will all remain bound together in blood. Salt courses through Valerian blood. Ours runs thick, ours runs true and ours must never thin. Looking over at Renira, Luke, Jace, as he's saying this, surely this is something that everybody who is present picks up on. If you track the glances, here's how I track them, the most significant, which is that Damon notices is what Vaman is saying.

Damon notices Reneura and Jace soaking in what Vaman is saying. And then Damon does what he does, which is laugh. And maybe you can call me a Damon apologist if you want, but my read on that is that he

is that he is trying to pull everyone needs their own favorite murderer and mine is Damon Targaryen. Then he's trying to pull focus from Reneera and and like make them less uncomfortable. That's my term.

What's your interpretation of the Damon laugh? Yours is a charitable reads. No, it's one I like. Okay. As a fellow Damon apologist. I love it and I'm here for it. I thought it felt like a little bit of a combo of nervous laughter. And we see elsewhere in the episode when Vassaris and Damon are interacting that

Damon hasn't quite processed all of his feelings about this particular group of people, but also clearly chuckling and responding to Vaman's not so thinly veil digs in a way that almost maybe think like he was like mocking or belittling him for not having the tact to know how to levy that kind of charge. He's like, he's like, this is when you're getting your takes off right now, right now, Vaman? Okay. Right.

And Damon, you know, famously really thinks about timing and the appropriate moments to do things like, is it the right time? You have to ask yourself to fuck your niece at your wife's funeral, at your in-laws home. You got to at least run through those steps in your mind. These are the questions that plague all mankind. You know what I mean? When we say the characters need to be relatable, this is what we mean. Not related, but relatable, right? No. But yeah, okay, so my read is the most charitable. Another charitable will be like, look at this fucking guy. That's slightly less charitable, but still like whatever.

What I do not think is that Damon is laughing because he didn't care about Lena at all. Like I don't think that's the case at all. I agree. I don't think so either. Another moment that we get in this funeral sequence is auto high tower back, finger in that hand of the king pin on his flip down. Wow, we might set a record today. What a start. Yeah.

Joe. Yeah, yeah. We got an email about this. Because... Oh, my God. Sometimes I find out I get startled. You just jumped out of my chair. You like reared back.

That was so funny. All right. So this email comes from Fran. And Fran writes, one question to have about the mo is about the motivation for Viceris to bring Otto back his hand. He let him go at a time when Renera wasn't even married yet. And her heirs were just hyper. It became clear to him then that Otto's main goal was to have him marry Allison and one day have one of his grandchildren ruled. Now, in the present timeline, Allison has pledged loyalty to her own house, has brought up the legitimacy of Rainer's children multiple times over, and is publicly rejected betrothing the kids for any type of peace.

There are rumors now that Reneer's kids are bastards, and their looks do not work in their favor for dispelling that, which will undoubtedly cause her to lose more support. why on earth would Viseris aside to bring Otto back at this time when he would clearly be aligned to his own daughter, Allison? Mallory is like, great question. Question. Great question. Mallory, is there like, is there info in the book that helps us answer this question? It is, there is a passage that we can turn to to gain some insights into what

Veseris considered. And if he considered anything else, which he notably did and then made this decision anyway, which I think is even worse and more damning, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. I will read the passage now. Quote, briefly, he considered sending for Princess Renera. Who better to rule with him than the daughter he meant to succeed him on the Iron Throne? But that would have meant bringing the princess and her sons back to King's Landing, where more conflict with the queen and her own brood would have been inevitable.

He considered his brother as well until he was. he recalled Prince Damon's previous stints on the small council. Grandmaster Melos suggested bringing in some younger man and put forward several names, but his grace chose familiarity and recalled to court Sir Otto Hightower, the queen's father, who had filled the office before for both Vassaris and the old king. So he just in essence, end quote, he just in essence went with the devil he knew over other devils, he knows. He just made the easy, clear choice.

Because I think you could watch the show and say, Allison talks him into this, right? Like, it's the only explanation in the show. But that's not how it's presented at least there in the text. I mean, I would say that's the show's version, because the only, like, prep we get for Otto's return is Lara saying you're going to write to your father, right, to Allison last week.

You know, you mentioned at the top that you love that this episode takes up right after the last, so that we don't feel any like whiplash. This is the one pushback I would have on that where like I would have liked to have seen this conversation where Allison convinces Vassaris or something about how Vassaris came to this conclusion. Because Vassar just being back with the hand pin on is a big move, huge move for the scales of power in King's Landing. And it just happened off screen.

So in addition to really wanting to see that, like that exchange between Allison and Vassaris that we assume took place, I would love to have seen the first reunion and interaction between Vassaris and Otto after their parting, which was so fraught. Like, what was it like for them to interact again? And Otto and Alicant, you know what I mean? So for him to just be there. Again, this is the tradeoff, you know, this is what Ryan Condal said at the beginning of the season, which is like, I really. have to hope the audience will just go with us as we hop and skip and jump through time. This is a very minimum, minimal time jump, but still this is the big crucial thing.

I think we're just glossing in this particular episode. So fair enough. One other funeral face, Agon, right? It's brief, but like, exquisite. Could it be more visibly bored? I roll, like, and Ty Tennant, who, who's playing egg on this episode has never looked more like his dad

I think in that moment. That's a real David Tenet expression on his face. So I loved it. So good. So good. We go from the funeral to the wake. And what awake it is, Joe. Everybody is crammed into this

courtyard scene, a little sardine can packed with awkwardness and charged attention. But before we talk about all that, quick, quick dragon math moment here because we get a very interesting shot of the two dragons in flight landing and five dragons cresting on the hillside from fire and blood, quote, so many dragons were present that Sept and Eustis wrote that Drift Mark had become the new Valeria. Like this is a historic moment moment and collection of dragons. And there are more dragons

active than we even see there. Because again, we only see five. That's clearly not including Vagar, who we have this very meaningful moment with later. And there are other dragons missing from the total who we know to be active. I saw here, I had a moment of empathy for Chris because it was difficult to totally, totally decipher who the five are. A couple of them are very clear. And then someone was a little tougher. No one tells Chris that Mallory said that. This will be a great test to see if Chris listens to this pod. I know he does. Does he know? what we said 30 minutes in.

I think we definitely see Sunfire, Dreamfire, Caraxis, and Syrax. Part of the reason we're so confident about Sunfire and Dreamfires because of a later shot where Vagar joins two other dragons in flight over the ship that is taking Vesaris and Allison back to Kings Landing.

So it can only be Dreamfire, Sunfire, and Vagar, the three kids' dragons. So who's the fifth dragon? It could be Seaswoke. It could be Maly's Moon Dancer Vermax Airax also active but all too small to be in that scene

so it's really just a question of if it's Seas Smoke or Males in that back corner I think it's I think it's C-Smoke based on the coloring but maybe he's off mourning on his own I think it's C-Smoke that would be my guess as well yeah okay

love to check in on the Dragons I also loved how you really feel how routine it is for everybody who's present there to just be around dragons. So many Targary and so many Valerian, so many people with a connection to old Valeria, like nobody who's there in that courtyard is thrown at all by the fact that there are five large dragons right behind them. And I mean, if you if you relook at that moment, we haven't, we haven't seen, this is Sunfire's debut. We haven't seen Sunfire. Sunfire is famously like the most beautiful dragon. And I've

I love to debut the most beautiful dragon without talking about it at all. In a background shot, yeah. But, like, I've seen some freeze frames enhanced whatever shots of this. And, like, truly Sunfire looks absolutely gorgeous. Sort of, like, how Sunfire is described in the book is, like, as very golden. But there's a lot of, like, almost, like, rainbow iridescent moments on this dragon that I'm so excited to see Sunfire, presumably. in its full glory. I have to assume. Can't wait. Can't wait. And Dreamfire, like, you know, a very blue dragon. It seems like that's definitely

Dreamfire. And also we can confirm because we were sort of debating and wondering last week with the comments about how Amund was the only one without the dragon, if that meant that Helena was an active rider at that point. And both the presence of Dreamfire here in this episode confirms that, but also it is on the HBO Dragon Index website that they have officially confirms on there. that Helena is Dreamfire's writer. Again, love to confirm things like that on supplementary websites and podcasts and not inside of the show called House of the Dragon.

That's fine. Joe. Yeah. This chore art scene, we're going to go through all of the meaningful interactions here, kind of rapid fire, lingering a little longer in certain key exchanges. But I have to ask you,

you already noted this was the first stretch that they filmed. They talked in the inside of the episode about how that kind of enhance the sense of people being unfamiliar or like strange around each other. Do you have a favorite? You can do it number one. You can do a top three. Interaction glance anything from this smorgasbord of goodness. Yes.

Oh, easy, easy number one for you. Oh, I'm excited. I was spilling through it and then I landed on the one that I was like, oh, it's obviously this. It's obviously the Valerian steel sharp daggers coming out of. Allison's eyeballs towards Reneera. Like, Olivia Cook just serving disdain for poor Rineer in this moment. How about, how about you? Oh, man.

That's a great pick. I love that. And again, it was really great to see that Allison Kristen shot that we've seen so much of the trailers. Yeah, yeah. Same with that shot of Reneira emerging. Like, so many of these moments we had glimpsed. And I definitely thought I knew what that shot was and I was wrong. I did not, I did not think, oh, clearly this is Rineer.

walking out into the funeral reception for her sister-in-law, Lena. A really, really cool, dramatic moment. Yeah. Incredible. How about you? What was your favorite glance? This was hard because these were all so deliciously fraught. My number one, though, I think it's Damon and Vassaris.

Their conversation's great. That was my number two. That was my number two. The number of times specifically that Vassaris looks over his shoulder and still. There's meaningfully at his brother longing for contact and Damon doesn't budge. And like, Baceres is the king. And the fact that the king gets up and goes over to his brother. I mean, like, on the one hand that's very, over to him.

Yeah, on the one hand, that's very sweet because it is, after all, Damon's wife, who just went into the to the drink. But like, on the other hand, Viseris is the king. Like, people should come to him. So, yeah, yeah. The over-the-shoulder glances. all the brothers. Remarkable stuff. One of my favorite moments from the inside the episode

and House the Dragon's Built Featurettes to date through the entire season so far was Matt Smith talking about Damon in this episode saying like he's a leaner. I've always thought of him as a leaner. I know. It's just like, it's true. You rewatch it. He's just leaning all the time on the wall there against the door in the eye for an eye scene. It's so funny. Big Jordan Catalano energy.

Oh my God. You can't say things like that because then I'm just going to want to talk about my so-called life for 20 minutes instead of doing the rest of the pot. Carve out some time for me later. Okay, great. Call me. Okay. Let's go through some of these pairings, trios, chats. First, Reneer and Damon, more to come on this front.

The thing we'll note here is just that they are sharing it. Oh, God. Great stuff. Lots of lingering. looks here. Lots of lingering looks and later when Vassaris and Damon are finally interacting, Reneira is watching

with interest, tracking that exchange and how they feel about each other with interest. Reneira and Jace. It's huge. Take us through this. I want to okay, so I want to talk, go back to this again

later when Allison is talking to Reneer about duty, but like, you know, Reneer has this little conversation with Jace where Jase is saying, you know, my dad's dead too. I have as much, you know, I have an equal claim to sympathy. Equal claim to sympathy. There I go. Perbreaking.

Reneira says it would not be appropriate. The Valerians are akin and the strongs are not. Look at me. Do you understand? That is duty, right? That Alicent is completely not acknowledging that Reneira is stifling down her very real grief for someone that we know based on. Emma Darcy and Rancourt's great performance in the last episode,

there was real love and affection between these two. And Reneer just has to put it all away, which she does dutifully to show up and behave completely appropriately until she fucks her alcohol on the beach, I guess, at this funeral. So she tells Jace, poor Jace, to go help out Bailen Rina, which is just a lovely, thoughtful, like genuinely kind thing for Reneira to do. That's not a calculated move.

That's just an empathetic move from Reneira. Is Reneer a perfect angel baby? No. You know, later she will fuck her uncle on the beach. But like, these are the moments. I ship it. Me too. But like these are the moments that really endear Reneira to me.

Like she genuinely has a good heart, I think, for the most part. We'll talk about some of that. And then she sees that Allison and Kristen, like, you know, as you said, that shot from the, from a lot of the trailers and promo are just sneering at her, you know? So she has to stuff it all down and just, and she's got her own mask in place here. She's going to talk about Allison's mask later, but she's got her own mask in place here. I thought this interaction was incredible. Me too. And, you know, we chatted a bit last week about the comfort that Reneer shows to Jase when he asks of her when he was her father, but also like a little bit of the hubris of saying

you're a Targaryen and that's all that matters. And I was, this is a real, really different tone and a really different tact to take with him. And I really felt watching it that it's, it's her decision here and the way that she's guiding him and the way that she is is guiding herself is reinforced by this, sensation that they are surrounded on all sides by people who are just waiting for a misstep. and a lesson she's perhaps learned from the loss of Harwin. I mean, that's another thing we didn't get to see, right? Which is Renira finding out that Harwin has died. I would have liked to have seen it.

But yeah, it's a... And what I like, I mean, we'll get to this later, but like, there is a moment for her to mourn him later, you know? Yeah, really that later conversation is beautiful talking about what they've lost. But it is just so sad here that little Jace is like, I want to mourn my first. my grandfather and I know that's who they are and everyone knows it and I can't do that.

Like to just not be able to live openly in their grief is just gut wrenching. I think also a lot of people pointed out to go back to the funeral. I love to go back in time on a podcast, but like to go back to the funeral, the way that Reneer is standing with her arms around the boys versus Allison's who is like nowhere near her children. And we talked about last week about this compare or contrast between Allison's and Reneira in terms of their mothering styles. But what I do want to say to be fair to Alic, to try to be as fair to Allison as I can be,

even though I find her very frustrating, is, you know, Reneira had, those are children of a love that Reneer had. Reneera, like, loved Harwin, but they're not even the love of her life or her soulmate or whatever. She loved him. He loved her. They had like, one can only presume joyous sex and these are their, like, beloved offspring. We saw Allison do her duty with Vassaris.

And so these children are the constant reminder to her of her duty. And so, like, I have sympathy then for her detachment from them because of the way, you know, the way it all came about. So speaking up. Speaking of those children. Yeah. What a glimpse we get of the interactions between Agon, Amid, and Helena here. Let's chat for a minute about Helena, because this was something that we talked about in the book section last week, but couldn't talk about it in the main stretch of the pot and really, really wanted to.

It was difficult not to. Because when Allison says last week to Amid, you will have a dragon one day, I know it. And Helena responds, he'll have to close an eye. We gasped because that in S is confirmed. that Helena is a dreamer. Helena is one of the Targaryian prophetic seers who Viseras is so obsessed with and so desperately wants to be.

So now everything that she says, including this line that we'll talk about, but everything that comes after, we will be able to parse for nuggets and clues about what it might mean. And in terms of that relationship, like I'm really curious to see

if we get moments between Viseris and Helena where they talk about this and what this means. I would love that. It doesn't seem like it because Vassaris does not treat any of these children like they're his children at all. You know? Like we can we can knock Allison for being a bad mom or, you know, a distant mom or whatever you want. But like, Vassaris does not treat these children like they're his children at all. So lots of yelling later in the hall of nine.

Lots of yelling as though you were speaking to strangers rather than your own children. Tough episode for Vassaris. It was bad to happen at some point. He said just, you know, unimpeachable showings before. Maybe that's why Kristen Cole is, like, confused that whether or not these children are cousins. Oh, my God. That drove me crazy. Surely they can't be Viseras' children.

Anyway, we'll get to that. What does Helena say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's what Elena says this time as she's holding a little spider, loves to play with bugs, once again. Hand turns loom. Spool of green, spool of black. Black, dragons of flesh, weaving dragons of thread, hand turns loom. What do you make of it?

There's plenty we can say here. There's also like, we're going to get to this even a little bit more in the book section later in this episode. But I like my very first interpretation, first of all, hand turns loom, feels like an auto reference, like, you know, the, I mean, I did think of rings of power and hands turning wheels, but also just like the hand of the king is, is setting a lot of this in motion, is sort of my idea about that. Spool of green, spool of black.

We talked about the green dress on Alicent. A black dress for Rainira is something, you know, that divides these teams or signals what these teams are. And we hear Reneira say later, she uses the vernacular, the green. So this is crystallizing this, the label, for. for each side. Dragons of flesh weaving dragons

of thread is really super interesting. There's a lot of ways you can interpret it but my favorite interpretation was the real dragons

that we see whether that be the Targarians or the actual beast that they ride will someday be the stuff of legends that you put in a tapestry

so like we're making history right now. Was that your interpretation too? You're thinking about tapestries? I love to think about a tapestry but just the way that the story is taking shape in real time and the decisions that these characters are making

is going to be the stuff of Lauren Legend for mushroom to misinterpret in the future, you know? The last interpretation that I really loved, A Shea from the History of Westrose podcast, I really loved her interpretation, which was that before this episode is over, a green, meaning Amund, and a black, meaning Rainier,

will literally be stitched up. Like, that, like, you know, Aeman gets the stitch on his eye, and Reneer gets a stitch upper arm. And I was like, oh, I hadn't thought about that. That's really cool. I love it. I mean, Vesaris is still kicking.

So this is really a season about medical care in many respects. So I like it. Oh, God. In addition to this very intriguing mini prophecy from Helena here, we get very quickly, like a pretty big nugget, which is that Agon and Helena are. betrothed. Allison has officially rejected Reneira's proposal, and not only has she rejected Reneer's

proposal, full Targ tradition here of incest, siblings will be marrying each other. So much for Allison's knock on the Targaryen's quote, queer customs, which is a charge that she was levying at Reneira back in episode four in our beloved godswood. Again, I would have loved to. seeing this. Yeah.

How Allison makes her case for this? Was this a difficult decision for her to make? Was this something that she had to reconcile with herself? How does she reconcile this decision with her own beliefs and her own adherence to the faith? I think that's really, really fascinating. And while we don't get to see how Allison feels about it, we do get to see how Agon and Aman both feel about it.

Agon's boredom and revulsion just across Not only when he's talking about this, he's not interested, doesn't want to marry Helena. All he is interested in is a new goblet of wine and Steve just play us the clip here. We actually do have one thing in common.

We both fancy creatures with very long legs. Tidantinant, we will miss you. Miss you dearly. He then shouts wench another. It's just an iconic, iconic showing from Dident yet again. I can't remember if we talked about this last week, but I do think they're doing something a little interesting in trying to tie young Reneira and Agon here

in terms of pressure to rule. Allison is putting pressure on Agonne on that he will be the heir. Aman is about to talk to Agan about his responsibilities and stuff like that. And all Agon wants to do is drinking, I guess, probably fuck a wench, right? And all Reneira wanted to do was eat cake and fly off on a dragon with Allison. And like, how different are those things? I far prefer young Reneira to young Agon. But I do think they're intentionally trying to, in a way that the book doesn't bother to,

trying to draw a line between those two characters. Yeah, I like that a lot. I think that's really smart and this idea of being really firmly guided by your passions and your youth and rebelling a bit against the responsibility that other people would seek to put down on you, including, and we often talk about what the adults are placing upon the children here. And we will do so many times today. But it is so interesting when that also comes from Amund in this scene, who's Agon's younger brother. And he's like, if only mother had patrode us instead, like, I'm ready. I would do my duty.

and he says it will strengthen the family, keep our Valerian blood pure. Now, on the one hand, he clearly thinks that Agon is an idiot, but one of the things that we've really liked tracking across the episodes and talking about on Talk to Thrones and here is this idea of, like,

who is deeply focused on what it means to be a Targaryen? And that really emerges in full force for Aitman in this episode. It's also wild Aiman says she's your future queen. Like, queen. Right.

Like, it's a foregone conclusion to him. So, Aymond has fully bought into the fact that Agon will be king. Right. He's been indoctrinated by... That is real Hobart High Tower. Hail, Hail, Hale. Egan second of his name. Egan the conqueror, babe.

I mean, that's just... It's a wild thing to say, and he says it, like, so, so casually. So, yeah. I also, I could be wrong in this. but I sensed, I feel like they're trying to set up some real tenderness between Amon and Helena. Yeah, I felt it too. Like Galadriel does. So I felt it too.

I felt it too. I think that also I didn't get a chance to go back and watch, but like when Amon is, comes back from the dragon pit in the last episode. episode. Like, where are Helena and Allison's? Like, are they in Helena's chambers or are they in Allison's chambers? Does he go to Helena's chambers? Or does he go to Allison's chamber? He's brought there, right? He's brought there. Okay. All right. So, probably not. But, and I like that Helena, I mean, again, Helena's first dream prophecy that we hear from her is about her brother even. So I don't know. I like the idea that perhaps they're setting up like a tender connection between those two,

who are not Agon because Agon sucks. So yeah. Speaking to people who suck, let's chat about Kristen for a second. There's a really interesting Kristen Allison's Laris moment where Kristen observes that Laris won't stop looking over at Alicent. And he's really weirded out by this. And he calls, we talked about this a bit on Talk to Thrones.

I was like kind of bowled over by this. He calls Laris Lionel Strong's son. and seems baffled by the fact that he is, and unnerved by the fact that he's looking over at Allison this way. And I'm like, does he not know that Allison and Laris are tight? Like, Kristen is Allison's sworn protector. And Laris is her closest confidant. These are two of the people who are most centrally in her life

and a part of her crusade. Is Kristen not aware of who one of Allison's other main allies is? like, that strikes me as very notable. I mean, presumably he sleeps standing up outside of her door now. So, like, wouldn't he know when Laris, like, go sit in and out? Oh, God. I do want a moment. We'll talk about this again later, but I want a moment to talk about Laris and subtlety

because as you're visiting this description of Varis, we've been comparing Laris and Veris and Littlefinger as, like, these operations in the kingdom. him. There's a subscription of Varus in the book, where Varus says, my role is to be sly, obsequious, and without scruples. It talks later to, he also talks to Ned about being brought up with actors and it's his role to blend in and stuff like that. Anyway, Laris, you, you called him out from the beginning and I just have to agree with you that he lacks subtlety. He lacks chill. Like, what is he doing at that wake? What is he, what is his energy there?

It looks like it's the first time he's ever been invited to the party, which was sort of, like, pathetic and sad a little bit. But I know he waits till they're on the ship to ask Allison if he would like how I go claim an eye. But the fact that he's just always leering from some corner and then shouting, like, who can I go kill for you? It's, it's a, it's a, it's a, we need a degree of recalibration there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, a question, an ongoing question they have is like, are. Laris and Kristen both being set up as Littlefinger-esque, like somewhat or deeply in love with Allison in some way.

Is that a dynamic that we're meant to be picking up on? So, yeah. What do you think? I have questions about where Kristen Cole was when all of this went down. I have questions. He was on Nightwatch. So does Sir Harold Western, like some meaningful glances exchanged. And Harold's like, we need to talk to HR.

about this. Yeah. So, well, we'll be talking about Sir Harold more in a bit, but our next

meaningful exchange here takes place between Corliss and Luke. Corlis is at his own daughter's funeral and is

chatting about the line of succession for House Valerian. Yikes. We get a great little... Logan Roy wishes. We get a great

little don't want it moment from... Steve, Steve, what would that sound like? I don't want it. I love it. I was waiting for Luke to go full, John.

Like, you are my queen. I never wanted it. To want it. Oh, God. Just the best. Incredible. Always nice to be reminded of John. And then we get a really, like, genuinely heartbreaking exchange.

Where Luke says, after Corlis tells him that it's his birthright, if I'm the Lord of Driftmark, it means everyone is dead. This broke my heart. Because there are so many moments in this episode and in recent episodes where we're reminded and you really felt it here,

how these kids are just in the middle of a game that somebody else started and how they are just absorbed into it, like constantly having to think about your family members dying, constantly being at odds with each child, other, constantly being taught to view people who you might otherwise have affection for as threats. Oh.

Sad. Yeah. Sad. Sometimes, though, it's just as notable when people don't speak at all. Joanna, please take us through this cheeseboard moment with Rainis and Renera. This is the moment that fascinated me most of all is what is going on with Rainey's in this episode. Rainier. And then we'll go on to Cold Shoulder, Jace, as well.

And one presumes Luke, if she's given the chance. So we know from previous episodes, episode two, very specifically, the reason Rainis and Renier have had a fraught relationships, remembering the conversation that they had when Lena was, tiny Lena was taking a walk through the garden with Fasaris. Right. They denied you, Princess. Yeah.

Right. Tough stuff. So Rainius has never loved Brunera but the main issue here we find out later in our conversation with Corleys is like listen this bitch very clearly has had children that were not with my son

that puts my son in danger like I kind of understand that but the question is a danger she was already bracing for before this because that was what she voiced just on the heels of Asaris's proposal in episode five we are placing our son in danger that knives will come out idea

but the question is so like Rainis goes over and she's sunshine and lollipops to Bela and Rana. Poor Bela and Rana, right? Really icing poor Jace, who has gone over and like Baila took his little hand and it was just like so sweet. She's ice her out. This gives me such Catlin Stark energy towards John Snow, right?

Where we're like, we like Catlin and we like Rainies, but this is a moment where we're like, you can't extend grace to some children who had no role to play in, you know, coming into this family as bastards or not, however you decide to define it. And to go back to, we just heard from John Snow, to go back to Luke saying, I don't want it. Like, I think the show is working really hard to put Luke and Jace in a sort of John Snow stark mold. And I think a reason to do that is something we'll talk about later, which is like, a question that keeps coming up is who do we root for in this show. And I think they're setting up Luke and Jace to be, you know, Johnish in that way, you know?

Oh, man. I think that that Catlin Rainier's comp is excellent. Like thinking of the moment, too, where Kat is aware of that and in a moment of grief can, like, say to Tulisa all because I, couldn't love a motherless child. You swap motherless for innocent and that same idea holds. And like, that actually made it so much more tragic that that self-awareness is there and it doesn't change the way that you behave. Oh, God.

I was also really like, so much heartbreak in this episode, really struck by that little moment where after Jace moves aside, Amund comes over and they're staring at each other for a second across this fire pit. And you kind of feel, and you know, we're interpreting, but I'm just, I felt like Eamon went over to try to extend a kindness and then can't. And Jace also can't receive it. And like you just feel that the division is taking root so fully already. Everyone is already on edge.

Do you interpret that kindness as Eamon would like to say to Jace, I'm sorry your dad's dead, but can't say it because to say it is, I mean, you'll have no trouble saying it later, but to say it here when he's trying to be nice is also an insults. Yeah, I don't know. It's a great question. Is he there to say, sorry, are you okay?

And then because Jace kind of turns away, he, that's it. And then the next interaction is calling Jason Luke bastards. Or was he just going to stand around people's own age? And I mean, I don't know. Again, I think it's really open to interpretation, but it does feel like there's a little moment there.

No, there's definitely a moment there. Well, there's definitely a moment there. We know that he does not like his brother because he's like, Agon. And like his sister's on the ground playing with spiders. So he's like, maybe my nephews, not his cousins, maybe my nephews can be my friends here. And then it just doesn't work out. So close.

Oh, God. Sad. How about this deeply dismaying moment that we get from Corlis, where he sees that Lainor is way steep out in the water, mourning in his grief. And Corliss decides to make a much bigger scene and draw much more attention to this by shouting at Carl to go retrieve his patron so that everybody stops and stares and looks. What's going on here? My only thought, the only reason for this moment to exist is to pay off later in the episode,

the Carl Lainor fight. that's fake that happens, because there's no reason for Corleys to call attention to it this way. And also, was there no way back from the beach but through the reception? Because Carl brings him back cutting straight through the cocktail hour. I was like, was there no side path back into the castle? What are we doing here? I don't know. This confused me.

Vassaris and Damon. After all of these glances, Vassaris finally hobbles over to his brother. they speak for what we can gather in the show is the first time in 10 years. So this is different because in fire and blood, we know that Damon reaches out after his children are born and asks to receive them at court. Everyone's telling Vesaris, don't do it, right? Quote from fire and blood here, Viseris consented, for the king still loved the brother who had been the companion of his youth.

Damon is a father now. He told Grand Maestermelos, he will have changed. Thus were the sons of Baylon Targaryen reconciled for the second time. So that just didn't happen in the show. This is their first moment interacting with each other. And it goes really well. It's tough. Now, again, this is like a classic Damon moment because on the one hand, I'm not going to lie.

I laughed. Like, it was so cruel and rude, but so funny when Viseras is saying that the gods are cruel. And Damon says it seems they've been especially cruel to you, like looking at all of the missing pieces. of his melting brother. Credit to Vesaris, he takes that one on the... Well, I don't know if he can take anything on the chin and might just fall off. I was going to say, he still has a chin that he can take it on. Oh, my God.

But it is also, like, it is so painful because Vassaris, we rarely credit Vassaris. And I will say that, like, he is extending an olive branch in the form of their shared grief. He's observing these losses that have defined both of their lives. and he actually can relate to what Damon is going through and invites Damon home, tells him there's a place from it, his court. What did you make of Damon's response? Because he has absolutely no room for it. He says, I need nothing.

I thought that line was so interesting. Especially because later, Reneira says, I need you, uncle. You know what I mean? And so it's like, I mean, we already saw him say, like last week to Lena. I don't, like, good. I went out of like the politicing, you know, Roneer's like one last job, question mark. But I need nothing.

I don't know. I mean, you can't fault Damon for, I don't know. I don't know. No, you probably can. Actually, I'm just making excuses for Damon. But like, has it been 10 years since his brother spoke to him? And not that Vassaris made a huge misstep in what he said here. It's just like he doesn't understand Damon at all.

And Reneura, I think, does. We've said that over and over and over again, that Reneer and Damon speak exactly the same language. And Viseras and Damon. And Hygillarian. Both. Okay, legal. Oh, God. It just felt like Damon has not forgiven Vassaris for casting him aside and is genuinely deeply wounded by this still. Oh, boy. He does, however, have plenty of room in his heart to continue dunking on Otto. And I have to say, I miss this. I missed Otto and Damon shredding each other at any opportunity. Just pass him by. Passing by at the courtyard. What does he say? Just in passing. No matter how fat the leech grows, it always wants for another meal.

For like in response to nothing. Yeah, response to nothing. David just drops that. All timer. This is just, this is why Damon is great. This is amazing. I love him. This is my auto is obsessed with David.

Yeah, it's just like, wow. This guy just posterized me and all I tried to do was say hi, sorry. Rough. Also rough. everybody is caught in a brief reenactment of Tywin Lannister's fabled, The King is Tired sequence here. I love an early bedtime. I mean, same, but it's like 7 p.m. And Renira is sending her kids to bed so she could follow Damon.

Yeah, Miguel hasn't even put like 90 blue filters on the camera yet. It's still dusk. Oh, my God. Yeah. I think some of the real highlights here, you know, we get this, this, Amund is hearing the dragon screeches setting up what's going to happen. But Otto pulling Egon up, kicking him a real like, boy, is this the, is this the guy I'm putting all of my stock into? I put in our notes from his piss puddle. And I don't know, maybe he just spilled a goblet, but there's a lot of liquid on the ground.

So just asking the questions here. on House of R. And then one of the most notable partings is what happens with Vassaris, Allison, Sir Harold, and Kristen. How did you interpret everything here after Viseras says, calls Allison's Emma? But also doesn't, how does he reply to Sir Harold's question here? Okay. So he says Emma.

And then I took this next thing that Harold says, which is shall I see after Queen Allison. your grace as like a gentle corrective of buddy you just called your wife by your dead wife's name. That's not great. And he says, Macarra says no, no Sir Harold. In Misseris' defense,

he was just thinking about Emma when talking to Damon. I'm going to, it's tough though. It's painful. It's hard. A lot of people watching. He says no, Sir Harold.

And then Harold says to Kristen, you have the Knights watch, Sir Kristen. We got this email from Lauren, who says, well, everyone was focused on Vassaris, while everyone was focused on Vassaris calling Alice and Emma, I was focused on Westerling, very pointedly asking if he should stay up with Alicent while Vassaris goes to bed, and Kristen would go with him. I realize that this later gives context that Kristen was on Night Watch and should have been there for the child attacks, but I also read it that he thinks something is going on between Alicant and Kristen.

I would just say, I like this interpretation from Lauren. I did not read it that way, but I kind of like it. But I will say that I loved every single time that Harold Westling looked askance at Kristen Cole, which was several times. So even though we haven't seen why it is Kristen Cole still has his job on the Kingsguard, we can be damn sure that Harold Westering is not excited about it. Like he hates that this guy is still on his staff. Sullying the white cloak, no doubt. I mean, my favorite later,

my favorite is that like when everything, all the shit goes down, like two Kingsguard have to physically restrain Kristen Cole, totally normal. Remarkable stuff. Totally normal that two other members of the Kingsguard have to restrain the Queen's sworn protector. Anyway.

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Clinic Kids is registered 5.101c3 nonprofit. it. Okay. Great scene there in the courtyard. What a rich text. We are moving on to this also very rich and layered conversation about legacy between Reneas and Corlis who are responding to their grief quite differently. Renis, not ready to just say this was an act of the gods. Mayhap's, she responds to Corlis, the gods have scorned us for our insatiableness. pride. Joe? Scenes from a marriage. When Corlis says that he's doing this because Renice was spurned at the Great

Counsel, she challenges him. This is something that you had observed early, that this not necessarily pure fallacy, but this convenient trumpeting of his desire to support and avenge her failed claim. Yeah. Was not conveniently revealing the personal ambition that he carried at the heart of it. For the night of all nights, I just lay aside this falsehood. It's not justice for your wife that drives you just your own ambition.

Just desire for the throne. If not for yourself, then for the sions of your house. I gave up the idea of wearing a crown a generation ago. It is you, Lord Husband, who refuses to abandon this pursuit. even now at the cost of our children. I think this passage from fire and blood, which sort of opens this section where George Armand writes,

for this was to be a year when many of the long simmering tensions and jealousies that had played the seven kingdoms finally came to a boil, a year when many and more would have reason to wail and grieve and run their garments, though none more than the sea snake, Lord Corley Salarian, and his noble wife, Princess Rainies,

she who might have been queen, I think her saying, mayhaps the gods have scorned us for our insatiable pride, and this is even before their son, they think, winds up in the fireplace. Like, you know, there's this real, are we cursed energy coming off of these particular characters. What do you, like, how did this strike you especially, Mallory? So I I love this because I One of the things that we were chatting about

with Renice earlier in the season is like how It hurts us as viewers to see this This divide between Reneas and Reneira Characters who could do so much To help each other and have a lot of shared experience in history and how they are in very different places When they have that conversation

In episode two And Renice I think part of why she's such a compelling character, like she always voices the truth that she sees it. And again, like in episode five on the wake of the Sarah, in the wake of Vesaris's visit, she was unflinching in her assessment that she shared with Corliss.

And like we really championed at the time how he was listening to her and how rare it was to see a relationship and a marriage on their show where they're like equal partners. And I like and think it's important that she is very, voicing the limit of that.

And that he then is so staunch and steadfast in staying the course that he believes is right. And, you know, the other thing that I love in this scene that plays out then over the next part of it where they're discussing legacy and this cloud, this shadow hanging over Reneira's children, Reneas is playing the game too. And that's like a crucial element of this story. that you have these moments where you feel yourself drawn toward and aligning with somebody. And then they also do something that makes you say, oh, but like, at what cost? Yeah.

And, you know, Corliss is like very firmly in his Tywin corner here. Taiwan's coming up a lot today, and I don't think that's an accident that he's a character who's so top of mind for us. One of the great, great, great lines of this episode comes from Corliss here when he says, what is this brief mortal life, if not the pursuit of legacy. Obviously, Taiwan's obsession with legacy, we've talked about a lot, like the conversation that he had with Aria at Heron Hall in season two, where he asks if she knows what legacy is and explains it. I was actually thinking more here of our introduction to Taiwan in the show, the great scene,

the skinning scene with Jamie in the tent, where he says, it's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family. family, you understand? Like, when we get history does not remember blood, it remembers names from Corlis later. That is a moment that ties directly, I think, to how we think about Taiwan. But as you've noted before, we think of Taiwan as this, like, master tactician and strategist, but also as a character who often gravely erred, most of all, by pursuing this idea of family

and legacy without actually taking the time to study what was happening inside of his family right in front of him. And like, it strikes me to coralluses of characters making those same mistakes. I love that you brought up the skinning Taiwan introduction scene, and I had forgotten that he says, that's so smart. The line that we quote a lot for Taiwan, that aria line that you mentioned is, like, you know what legacy means, what you pass down to your children, your children's children, and what remains of you when you're gone. I like to contrast that to what Ned Stark, one of my favorite Ned Stark scenes, which is in the Black sells with Barris, right? And Ned says, yeah, I know. Ned says, you think my life is some

precious thing to me that I would train my honor for a few more years of what? You grew up with actors, you learned their craft and you learned it well, but I grew up with soldiers. I learned to die a long time ago. And then Lord Varis says, pity, such a pity. What of your daughter's life, my lord? Is that a precious thing to you? So, like, I love this moment where Ned Stark's like, I don't give a shit about my life or even like this idea of legacy, but Varus is like, yeah, but you do care about your daughter who is alive and you want her to protect her. And so I like this contrast of thinking about like just names or where you will be in the history book or where you will sit in the tapestry or how the Valerian name will be burnished versus thinking about who's alive right now and how can

you protect them. You know? And so, And that's where I do fault Rainies a bit because even though there's a lot to credit her for, and I love the idea of passing Drift Mark to Bela and all that sort of stuff, very, you know, calling Corliss out for his empty feminist ideals. Let's challenge the patriarchy for real, my guy. She's putting a target on Luke and Jason that, you know. And so, again, thinking about the children who are alive and how can we. protect them. She's like, yeah, I'm thinking about two children who are alive and how I can

secure their future, but I'm going to throw these two boys who have done absolutely nothing, who are absolutely innocent, because one of them hasn't sliced an eyeball out of someone's head yet, under the bus, you know. I think it's really juicely complicated. And it's what we're going to talk again, we're going to talk about likeability in a bit, but like this is what, the show does best. This is what Martin does best. This is what the world, this world of ice and fire does best, which is show us characters who have virtues and flaws sitting right side by side with each other, you know? Couldn't agree more. The messiness and the muddiness of that is so fully undisplayed. I love that you brought up Ned as that contrast. Like, he was willing to completely

sacrifice his reputation in order to protect John and honor Liana's wish at the expense then, ultimately, of the peace inside of his own family. And like, we talk a lot about like that madness of mercy idea. And it's just a great thing to keep in mind here. I was also thinking back as Renisa's challenging Corlis on his ambition and where it will lead them. Like, on what we know about his character in general and what has been so central to his depiction on the show. Like, thinking back to his conversation,

episode two actually in a couple different ways because some of it is what we hear from other people. You know, we get that conversation between Lionel, RIP, and Vassaris, when Lionel says, I fear nothing short of a direct line to the Iron Throne will satisfy him.

And, of course, we have that great conversation with Corliss and Damon at the end of episode, where he says, we are the realm's second sons. Damon, our worth is not given. It must be made. This is the seasnake of the fabled nine voyages, literally responsible for achieving things that no person had ever done.

Like, he, he, he, the, the place that they are standing high tide is a totem to what he can achieve through sheer force of will and determination. And so, like, Renice is in essence saying to him, cease doing the thing that got you where you are. And the limitation then for him on the other side is that he can't even consider the possibility. Like when he says you would have me cast an even darker shadow over those little boys that already exists, is there, is any of that stemming from affection? Maybe. It's entirely possible. I think he was very sweet when he was interacting with Luceris.

I think it is also true, certainly and undeniably, that while that is a moment where we really feel that, again, Renice is playing the game too and complicating our feeling about the likability of the characters, as you just noted, changing what happens at high tide doesn't just impact Luceris. It would cast a shadow over Jace as well. And then that compromises that idea that Lionel shared about Corliss's desire to have that direct line to the throne. Remember when he asks Fasaris, will they have my last name? Like, this is top of mind for him. And of course, what else would it do? If it impacts Jase's claim, it impacts Ramirez claim. So this is something that, like, he simply cannot abide because it is at the heart of his very pursuit.

Exactly. They're both playing the game in their own ways. And that, yeah, no, I would never call Corlice's motivations. here altruistic, his own ambitious. Like, yeah, he seems very sweet with Luke. But all of that is all about legacy, shoring up legacy. And in a time of way, and like, we've mentioned this before,

but Steve Toussaint has said that when he auditioned for Corlis, he did so with Time and Lanister lines. So, yeah, makes sense. Well, speaking of a sure-in-up legacy, Yeah, is that what they call it? Although Hightower, we have some news. Reneer and Damon have coupled at last. Let's talk about it.

This sequence, strolling on the beach. Coupling. In the bells of the brothel. Pleasure tent. Under the wood planks of a perhaps former ship. I thought that was so interesting.

That reminded me a lot of the fact that like on the stepstones, Damon shelters under. Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. Before the actual coupling, this is just an incredible scene. An absolutely wonderful exchange. We're hitting on a lot.

The first thing that they do is they chat about Lanor. And Joe, we learned something pretty crucial here. So that like, Rainira, and we talked about this in Talk of Thrones, but that Ranira did try. to have a child with Leinor. Like, she wasn't just recklessly having babies that looked nothing like her husband. She was trying to have babies that looked like Leinor so that, you know, she would not be in the midst of this scandal, but it just did not work out for them.

And we should say that in the book, Reneira, like, would join Leinor and his... Everyone's like kind of a bisexual king and queen in Fire and Blood. And Reniro would like join Lainor and his boyfriend like in bed. And it was like a whole thing. So like we were definitely deprived of that reality. But anyway, that she tried. What strikes me about all of this, they talk about Lainor and they talk about Harwin. And then they talk about Lina.

is the honesty, immediate honesty that stands in stark contrasts to Reneura having to hide all of her heroin emotions at this funeral and the amount of grace and empathy that they can extend to each other, that there is, you know, this shared possessiveness and connection that they have with each other. But the way in which demon is very kind and he's like, I understand that Harwin was very devoted to you. That's such a kind thing to say, right? And Renira asks him about Lena, and he says we were happy enough. You know, and so there's room for these people who are extremely attracted to each other

in a probably bad for everyone kind of way, like all that sort of stuff, to, like, hold the reality of these other love affairs that they've had and the joy and the beauty that existed there. And it makes me like both of them a lot, this exchange. I totally agree. And the fact, like, you're saying that they just have no hesitation being completely forthright with each other in a story where in so many interactions, somebody has to hedge or couch. Like, there's just none of that here, which really, really stands out as a point of contrast. And, you know, I loved, like, when they were talking about Harwin and Damon is looking sideways and smiling at Renira when she says it felt good to be desired. And on the one hand, there's that,

like, you know that he's thinking back to their escapade to the street of Silk in episode four and like what that unlocked for her. But also, I just think that those are the kinds of moments that really make us like warm toward Renira and Damon, too. But like, who can't relate to that? That's just the most, like, honest and truthful thing you can say. Like, that's what people want. And it just makes us sink in and, like, care deeply about their ability to unlock that for each other. And, like, it's not like the whole conversation is smooth or without tension. You know, Damon, he points the finger at Otto and Allison for Heron Hall really notably, Reneer response by saying that she doesn't believe that Allison is capable of murder. And so even inside of this episode, obviously, there's

been this great, like, degradation of their relationship over time. But even inside of this episode, this one day, there is still something there to hold on to until it just completely disintegrates at the end. And I really liked the conversation about depravity because Damon says, like, they're all capable of depravity. And he would obviously know. It's the first thing we're thinking as viewers. We're thinking back to many things, but, you know, just to throw out one, him murdering Ria Royce. And Renera also points this out. Like, yeah, we know. And it's a good reminder as this, like,

heroes versus villains distinction is emerging in the show much more so than in the, not only in the text, but in the, like, moral gray on all sides, kind of marketing campaign and run up to the show in the way that George talked about why he's drunk the characters, etc. or like, it is, I think, important to balance that with reminders that plenty of people on Reneira's team have done bad and deplorable things do. Yeah. So, Damon with Rhea, obviously, the big one.

But inside this episode, like, the fact that they pave the way for Lainor to have this great escape is delightful. We'll talk about that. they kill someone in order to do that. Yeah. Like in cold blood. Just breaks a guy's neck, a member of the household on the stairs and says here's your body for the ploy. Like that's horrific.

I love a couple things, though, about this specific interaction because when she says, I do not believe Alice is incapable of cold murder. The fact that like, like, demons like, mm-hmm and, like, disagrees with her. And then very soon after. She says to Allison, now they see you as you are. And it feels like she had her mind changed in this moment by Damon. And then I also like, you know, you've already underlined it. But like when she says, I believe it, you know, each of us is capable of depravity,

he says, and more than you would believe. And she says, I believe it of you. If you're accusing me of some depravity, you need to be more specific. He says, again, this is just honesty. It's just laying the cards on the table. She has no illusions about who he is. and so say what you will about them. They're at least, in contrast to your point about Team Green,

Laris and Kristen and Allison and like, is she keeping both of those dogs on a leash and not letting them communicate with each other? You know what I mean? Here are Rainira and Dana being like, all right, Team Black, cars on the table, this is who we are. Yeah. We know who we are.

Let's go forward from here, you know. And in fact, like not only she, not holding that against him, it's part of what she's pissed off in him for taking away, that she missed that, that she didn't have the support that manifests in any way you needed to, no matter how horrific that might be. And one of the things she says to him here is that he abandoned her. Now, this is wild stuff from Damon Targary and that his defense here is you were a child. The brothel plot was completely fine, but then you were a child said it and he had to bounce. But even so, like, there's this moment then right after that where he shows real vulnerability

in turn by asking her when she's talking about how her life has become this droll tragedy. And he's like, what do you think my life has been like? And I don't think that's something that he would show to a lot of people. Like, they just unlock this level of candor in each other that is very rare and kind of only for them to see. And that brings us to the sex. The sex that, again, we ship it, one of the least surprising unions in television history, people have been anticipating this for some time.

Since he put that necklace on her neck, I would say. Wait, are these two people who are part of the incest family going to fuck? You know, they're at Damon's wife's funeral. They're at their both of their in-laws' house. I have some notes on that part of it. That said, I thought the scene was great and I loved it. I'm sorry. When they kiss, you mentioned this moment already, but like when she, when we're

Rehnere leans in and says, I want you. Like, these are very complicated characters, but also not really. Like, Damon is a character who wants somebody to want him. That is the defining variable in his life. And, like, they can give that to each other. And maybe it's toxic, but they can. Right, because of all the things that he has said to Viseris about you, keep sending me away.

And all I ever wanted to be was at your side. And Reneera is like, I'm going to be queen and I need you at my side. This is what he's been asking for. I love this idea also, if you want to say that Reneira rides him here. I like the parallel of Reneira claiming Damon for her side and Amon claiming Vagar for the green side, right? Like two people have claimed a dragon in this episode. And significant players on each side of this. you know, conflict,

Vagar and Eamon. So, you know, Vagar and Damon is what I meant to say. I was, like, really struck to by, you know, we already talked about how the structure that they're, that they're nestling under

recalls what, what Damon hides under in the stepstones and these really, like, defining moments in his life. I was just struck by how, like, intimate and private this is in contrast to the bowels

of a pleasure dance sequence, which was show, it was not, just so public, but it was so showy. And like, this is just for them. And that doesn't mean that it's without its political benefits, as we'll talk about later. But I don't know. This was just an amazing scene.

This is like, I feel like the kind of, and it was in the stretch of amazing scenes, the kind of thing that we've really like been craving more of inside of House of the Dragon where we're spending less time saying, wait, who's where now and played by whom and more like, okay, this is like this seismic. I was going to say coming together, but then I just know what you would have said. Wait, what is,

wait, Steve, what would, what would Beesbury say? Tell me. The, what I love, I mean, I will say,

I think the sex scenes in episode four were shot a bit better. I like the camera work on those scenes a bit better. better than I like the camera work here. That being said, Miguel Sapashnik's camera, I do like the way that it

runs up the burns on Damon's body, which is something that we hadn't really seen. We saw a little bit creeping up the neck. Yeah, we saw it a little bit on his neck. When Vassaris pins him down in the throne room in episode four, I was like

stared at many shots of Matt Smith's neck and I was like, I think those are burns, but also maybe Matt Smith is just lost some collagen in his neck and I don't want to call them out in case this is just what his neck looks like but indeed he has and those are war wounds right

those it burns up his body and it's just like you know took that flaming arrow in the stepstones there it's the it's the dragon warrior fire blood whole thing together I just I love that part of it yeah speaking of things I love

we love incest okay moving on Speaking of scars on a body, moving on. What are we talking about next? Joe, it's time to talk about Amant claiming Vagar. I could not wait for this scene. It was one of the scenes I was anticipating the most.

And it really lived up to expectations. Like, we've chatted a lot over our episodes about how we're longing for more of these moments, these origin stories between dragon and rider, I, you know, I, I went on a little spiel and talked to thorns about this. Like, I really care about this. And I hate, hate, hate the moments

where it feels like that is like cast aside. That's not just specific to House of the Dragon. Like more generally, this is a fantasy story. And sinking into and living inside of that magic and helping us understand those bonds and helping us understand the lore and the mythology is so central to this world. Like, a scene like this is the antithesis of then completely abandoning something like John and Ghost and the Warg Bond at the end of Thrones, which, like, devastated me and

still does to this day. I get so upset when I think about it. So not only did I love this, but I really am like longing for more moments like this in the show. Did you feel any of that? I feel some of it, but I will never feel it as deeply as you do. And I just love you very much as an animal girl, as a mystical animal girl, magical animal girl. And I support you in all your endeavors. Mystical animal girl.

I like it. Let's say if it sticks. Did you ever read the Tamara Pierce books? Like Alana. And then there was like, okay, I'll talk to you about it later. Anyway, there's a whole. I await your owl. There's a whole, like,

magical animal series that I would like to introduce you to now that we are grown-ass adults. Let's talk about it. Send that record on my way. I can't wait. I'll just send you the books. Yeah. Okay. Great.

Great. I also noted this on Sunday's pod, but, like, I couldn't not think about John and Regal in season eight of Thrones because it was really cool to see. It was thrilling. But it never, it always felt like that element of, like, the mag. of that moment was missing where every character in the world who who bore witness to that would stop and say, what does this mean? What a hugely consequential thing? And one of the things that I really loved about this Amund Vagar sequence is that that does happen here, both in the

immediate aftermath of it and everything that sparks the eye for an eye sequences. But like later, when Otto is is talking to Allison and says what that rogue Amant has done in winning Vagar to our side the boy was right, it's worth a thousand times the price he paid. Like, this is a huge stakes altering moment. And you do feel it. You also hear it, right? Can we do some sights and sounds? Yeah. We're going to talk about our pal Paula Fairfield, who does the incredible sound design on these creatures and also the creatures on rings of power, casually sends us little updates on the noise, the sounds that went into these creatures. Here's a challenge. Here's a She had to say about Vagar.

She says, I have to tell you the only notes I got on Vagar were that she's old, lonely, and has IBS, which is irritable bowel syndrome. Case people don't know. Polygos want to say, naturally, naturally, I had to make the fart that shook the world. Sadly, it did not pass HBO sniff test for all the old ladies who just want to be left alone and pass gas and peace. I see you, Vagar. Oh, my God. And then Paula wrote

RIP, hashtag RIP gigantic fart. Right? Oh, God. And the last thing she said to me is she says, I'm sad for everyone, Vagar's epic rip

was perfection and perfectly matched the look on Avan's face. Oh, my God, holy shit. Incredible. That is iconic stuff from Paula.

The fart that ever was. Oh, well. We need to get the fart in self-squint episodes. It has to happen. It has to happen. There's no reason to give up on the dream. remarkable stuff. I love this so much. Oh, my God. I mean, we really have, we have enhanced our understanding of Vagar with this.

Like, we've talked a lot about how Vagar is the oldest, the biggest dragon in the world. We got that too large for our world moment with Vassaris and Lina in episode two. But this, this cements something essential about Vagar's personality and energy. Like, I love that.

I know. And presumably, presumably, presumably, this is why we did not see Lena claim Vagar to save all the like magic and presumably I guess why we didn't even see Vagar come with them to the royal wedding. I still feel like we miss something but I understand that they wanted to save it

for like one big sort of Vagar claiming scenes. Yeah, I agree. I feel both of those things keenly. Wanted more, wanted it sooner, but it does help everything feel like, holy shit here. you know, we won't go through like every single moment of consequence for Vagar in battle. Actually, read Riley McAtee's piece on the ringer.com.

What a great website where he does exactly that. Love it. If you are, if you are, you go for that. I think the thing, you know, in terms of, again, that auto idea and like how important this is, I think one thing that like stands out to me is, on the one hand, Vagar has been a part of, you know, we've mentioned this before, but just in case anyone hasn't heard the past pods or needs a refresher. past writers include Vesenia,

Agan the Conqueror's sister wife, a fabled warrior, Baylon, the Spring Prince, Damon and Vassaris's dad, and then, of course, Lena. So this is like, these are huge pairings and characters who have written Vagar.

And, like, Vagar participated in some of the most important battles of the conquest. There for Field of Fire, for example, one of our favorite battles to talk about. But the thing that I always like to think about with Vagar is that Vigar is so formidable, so fierce,

She doesn't even need to fight to get you to succumb. Like, I always love the moment where Vassania flew her to the Erie. And little, little, because this is when they're, you know, kings across the different kingdoms at this point, obviously, as the conquest is unfolding. Queen Aaron just has to bend the knee as little young king Ronald. It's just like running around. I want to go for a ride on the dragon. Like, you can just fly into someone's courtyard and bend them to your will if you're, you have Vagar on your side. Big deal. Also, there's this line from fire and blood about Vesnia

that night she mounted Vagar and returned to Dragonstone and is written that when her dragon passed before the moon, that orb turned as red as blood. Like, Vagar blocks out the moon. Also, Vigar's huge. Huge. Did you see, on House of Dragons Belt, they said, there was a moment on there where they said that Vigar is 150 meters long. The moment when, Amund lands Vagar on the patio where they had a whole reception and just smashes

the like tents and tables that were out there. Do you think the Westerosie event planners have just like thrown their hands up at this point and they're like, why do we ever even bother to plan anything? Vagher is so big like Vigar doesn't fit in the dragon pit. What are they going to do? Where is the size of a football field and a half?

What are they going to do? And I did. I loved that. I loved that about the claiming sequence, too. Like, the heft is really so well presented, these camera angles that just exacerbated. Like, Amon looks like a little speck of sand standing there. I loved that one shot where because we see, and this was cool too, you know, even though Aymond didn't have a dragon in the prior episode, we know here it's really cemented.

like he's paying attention, studying. He's ready with these Valerian commands. With the commands. Yeah. Like, which was huge, you know, knows what to do.

And the way that, like, Vagar can turn and see him trying to, to grab and climb the ropes, but that one head-on shot were, like, her face. Check-offs. You mean check-offs.

That were dangling off of Vager. You called that. I just, I thought that was all, that was all so amazing. And the way that, like, the shaking them off and the straight,

the straight ascent and descent and, like, the way that he passes that test and what that cements in that moment was just really extraordinary. And it's like, I guess we should note a couple things about the fire and blood version, because one of the inciting incidents in the text is that Vesaris is kind of like, if you're bold enough, not about Vagar specifically, that's something he does on his own, but Viseris tells him that, because they're going to be a dragon's Swing my dragonstone, yeah. Go get an egg if you're bold enough. If the lad is bold enough, is the quote.

And then it continues even a taname on Targaryen. It did not lack for boldness. The king's jib stung, and he resolved not to wait for dragonstone. What did he want with some puny hatchling or some stupid egg right there at High Tide was a dragon worthy of him? They are the oldest, largest, most terrible dragon in the world. Oh, great stuff. And I mean, I like in this episode how it's like he keeps hearing Vagar's song like throughout the episode.

That, again, that makes it much more like that sort of mystical, magical animal bond stuff that you like. The call. Yeah. The Kaibur crystal might as we might as be calling to him. Yeah, I love that. And I mean, we need to give him his credit here. He's about to say some shitty things. So we'll talk about that in a second.

but like we did something very extraordinary here. And like, you know, if I'm sitting here saying, I wish we had seen young Lena do this because what a badass thing. What a badass thing for this young boy to do this. So congratulations, Amen to Two Eyes while you're still aiming two eyes. I always loved the book description. Call it boldness. Call it madness.

Call it the fortune or the will of the gods. Yeah, that's great. Well, but also that quote also has the, what is it, the capriciousness of Dragon? What does it say? Yeah, we did get some questions from people. I didn't pull any specific emails about this, but we got some questions with people of like, how can Vagar who had Lena,

someone is like, cool as Lena as a writer, then bond to Aymann. Like, what is a dragon looking for in a rioter, etc? Again, it's Caprice. We don't know what these dragons are looking for, and they don't often claim or always claim or are claimed by people with similar. similar personalities necessarily.

So. Great point. Time to talk about an eye for an eye. Before we get to the fur and eye part, let's first talk about an eye. Just absolutely harrowing scene. But let's start with a change that they made that really worked for the better,

which is who spots the Vagar claiming in the first place. And we talked about this in the book section last week because the trailer gave us a little clue to this because we had, I think it's Raina saying, or maybe Bella, I can't so. But like, one of them saying, like, someone's taking vigor or waking J-Sup. So in the book, it's J-F who's like three, I think at this point. Yot. We-Tot. Yeah. And they were like Jophe who could never sleep. So apparently he was like just a toddler wandering her around often. Same. Yeah. Yeah. This toddler with insomnia discovers that Aman is doing this. And there's just

already this deep animosity between Allison's kids and Rainier's kids. And so the fight just comes from, we hate each other vibes out of the book. And I like how much more complicated it is here, because you add it, first of all, it takes place at Lanor's funeral, not Lena's funeral. So it's like less egregious, I suppose. And then to have Raina, who we've established as a kid, who like Amon just like doesn't have a dragon and feels insecure about it was I guess planning had it downed her

had it downed her calendar to claim Vagar and Aiman just beat her to the punch here so that makes it just so much more personal which again also makes Jason Luke that much more heroic that they get involved

here because basically like Jopsy's Aman trying to claim Vagar and is like, don't do that. And then Amon just pushes Jop down. So when Amon's on his flight, Jop runs and gets the boys and comes back. And all three of the boys attack. And the girls aren't even there. All three of the boys attack Amon and the fight goes from there. It's so much more virtuous for Jason Luke. I mean, first of all, it's fun that the girls are there. I liked watching Bala Punch. Amen, that was really fun, right? But again, I think it puts Jason Luke in the much more like John Snow, Rob Stark sort of model for them to be there to, like, protect their cousins rather than boys away boys and fight each other with knives, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's a great point about how personal at all feels here. And like the vitriol, obviously the violence, given that five children, like, pummeling each other is really, really horrific. and hard to watch. But it's not just the shock of the physical nature of this, of this fight. Like the deeply cold and cruel sentiments that are being hurled here. It's him.

It's me. Vega, it's my mother's dragon. Your mother's dead. Vega has a new rider now. She was mine to claim. Then you should have claimed her. I mean, this is hard. I think it is tough to reframe into that moment, but I will say,

I think this is such a marked difference between this, Amund and the one we saw at the funeral who is smiling feebly over the brazier at Jase. So how much just becoming the writer of Vagar change this kid's attitude? It's night and day, right? I mean, again, like the gall of claiming her at the funeral on this grave affront, but also, yeah, what that is. that would cement for him to go so quickly from feeling like an outsider, like somebody who didn't have this signifier of Targaryen might

and Valerian lineage that everybody else has when it's clearly something that he values so dearly to then be the writer of like the most fabled beast in the land. It's a confidence booster. It's a real come-up frame. I mean, we see the way that that's manifesting in real time. and again, very upsetting fashion because he calls Luke and Jace bastards. This is the insult that everyone will be discussing

in the next scene. He says that Luke will die screaming in flames just like his father. Now, this is a hideous thing to say. And poor sweet Luke has no clue what's going on, but Jace obviously does and is moved by his shame and his rage. to act leading to the,

this dagger technique that Little Luceris has, holding the blade upside down for that upward momentum of the slice, the burst of blood, the shriek. There's the little kind of team up because Jace, he kicks the dirt up in Amon's face first before Luke uses Jace's blade. There's also a rocket play here, Joe. Which is really interesting,

not in the book as far as I can recall. We got this really interesting email from Isaac about it. Someday I'll be ready. Okay, anyway, Isaac wrote, The Shots of Damon holding the Rock and approaching his late lady wife and that of Amon holding the rock during his fight with his cousins, nephews, actually,

are very similar. Damon is well known as the rogue prince and Otto calls Amon That Rogue in episode 7. Damon is tormented by Viseras' offer for aid in the stepstones, causing Damon to throw caution to the wind and rush the crab feeder by himself. Amon is tormented by his kin for not being a dragon rider, causing him to throw his own caution to the win and claim his dragon.

So, this, plenty of people over the ears have pointed out that Amund, which is the name of this kid, is unusual that Amon is a very, Amen with no D at the end is a very common Westeroce-T Targaryen name, but Amend with a D at the end is uncommon, and Amid with a D at the end is just Damon with the D move to the end. So this like parallel between Amid and Damon. But I think the rock here is key.

And that use of rogue, I think is very interesting. I love that. That's a great observation. Somebody who's less pleased with what is unfolding is Sir Harold Westerling who comes in, drawn by the shrieks. And with a

audible quivering in his voice, Steve, what does he say when he rolls over? Prince Amund and looks upon his visage. God's Be Good. Now, we already have a God's Be Good on the Soundboard, but now I think we have like, it's multi-purpose, because Beesbury, it's more like, do we have a little bit of a ribald humor,

is like someone doing something inappropriate? This is a God's Be Good that indicates horror, and we need that kind of versatility on Steve Allman's Soundboard. And listen, I love it. We all agree that we have not had enough Graham McTavish in general in this show.

So welcome to the Soundboard. Graham McTavish. He's given us a couple amazing gods be goods moment. Like when he saw David on the Iron Throne at the Rebbeard, God's be good. This stretch in fire and blood begins with the line, the cruelty of children is known to all. Now, sure, but I think that we would contest that once again,

the more central observation and question is about what the adults have passed to their children and how the cruelty that they are teaching and instilling and indoctrinating is then manifesting anew. And it's like the blight. You know, it starts on one leaf. And then it's all over your tree. Am I mixing out my stories here? Yeah, listen to the Rings of Power episodes with you guys. Yeah, because the other passage from the section is the enmity between Queen Alison and Princess Renier was passed onto their sons. The Queen's boys, Prince Agon, Amen, grew to be bitter rivals of their Rilari and nephews, resentful of them for having stolen what they regarded as their birthright, the Iron Throne itself. Now, the show decided to do something much more complicated, I think, but that idea of enmity and vitriol passed down to the generations.

Though I would say that, like, in this version, again, the sort of heroification of Reneira, I would not accuse Reneira of passing down that hatred to her sons. at least not yet but like Allison's like okay we're getting to the four and I we're going from an eye to four and I right yeah four and I I just got some some strong questioning

you know well I'm fast morning but I just want to say like when Amon's like when they're like who told you this and even just looks at his mom like that's where he got it from so anyway let's talk about this incredible scene let's go into the hall with dozens of the cast members assembled here.

This was really like one of the highlights of the season. And I think this is a cool instance too of like an emblematic of how the show is adapting the text because on the one hand, like many of the broad strokes are the same. But we build really meaningfully on a couple key lines, expand them in full and we get a totally new understanding of not only what is transpiring, but the severity of it. So for example, here is the line about what transpires specifically between Rinera and Allison. Quote, his grace further commanded his wife and daughter to kiss and exchange vows of love and affection, but their false smiles and empty words deceived no one but the king.

First of all, tough look for Vassaris. They're the only one who bought it. But we go from false smiles and empty words to unleashing the dagger of prophecy and some of the sickest bars that we've seen on the show yet. Before we get to the dagger and that real moment of consequence between Allison and Reniro, let's talk about some of the, just the general, like, staging and choreography of this scene

because it really does feel like everybody is up on stage at a theater production, Joe. You get Otto next to the driftwood throne. Our guy loves to stand next to a seat of power. you have this once once things really reach their head, this circle of onlookers where you have a moment like, Damon, shooting out to me, Kristen, people are, it does really feel like a dance. A dance.

And we've been tracking these moments of like, when are we getting these dances leading up to the dance and this kind of symbolic significance? And then a lot of key positioning of characters that cement the idea of the greens and the blacks and who is standing next to whom, who has an arm around whom, who is positioning themselves near whom. So like, for example, Taylor, you know, a member of the Greens. I need to talk about Taylor for a second, okay?

So Taylor is conspicuously positioned. Taylor is the redheaded maid, lady in waiting, whatever you want to call her, who is an attendant to Allison. And she is positioned very significantly right next to the fire right behind Amen. her significant positioning a couple times in the show has prompted this theory that I've seen on TikTok and Twitter and elsewhere that Taylor is for, is it Taylor, not Talia, it's Taylor, is for some reason Melisandra. I guess because she has red hair and Melisandra. Tali, okay. She has red hair and Melisandra has red hair. So we mentioned Talia watch last week, and we were like on the lookout. And Talia may still have some role to play.

But we do want to point out in a meta way, this actress, it's Alexis Rabin, I think, is Miguel Saposhtnik's wife and also an executive producer on the show. So it is possible than the last two episodes that were both, I believe, directed by Miguel Sopachnik. His wife might have gotten some favorable camera angles. that's something that happens sometimes. So I'm just saying she might be Melisandra. I don't think she is because why wouldn't they just have Chris Van Hought and play her?

But like, you know, and I'm not anti-Melisandra showing up at one point. I'm just saying that would be great. Yeah. Her prevalence here, I don't know that it is what we, what the most conspiracy. And you know I love a conspiracy in a theory. But in this case, I think it might just be a case of this is, the director's wife. All right.

We're keeping our eyes out from Melisandra elsewhere, however. I'm not sure that Fissaris is keeping his eyes peeled for Melisandra because he can barely keep it together here.

Before we get to the Reneer Allison's direct exchanges, like let's just chat about Fassaris for a second in this scene. Because this is not the first time that this has been true for our guy. But again, Tywin comes to mind

because I kept thinking about the moment where Taiwan says, any man who must say I am the king is no true king. And the number of times that Vassaris has to shout, your father, your grandsire, your king, he's talking to his own family members and the just lack of respect that his own children, that his wife, that these people of the realm feel, like he is so visibly not the one in control.

You noted already that very rich moment. when Amid looks over to Allison before ratting out Agon and answering Vassaris's question and doing what he's demanding. Alicent openly and repeatedly challenging him to the point of just shock by taking the dagger right off of his hip. Even Agon's reply, like the just look at them was iconic. But Viseras has spent the last two episodes saying, do not speak this aloud. like don't say anything about this ever again, both in privacy in their chambers with Allison and then to the room at large,

like I'll have your tongue if you say this again. His own son has, I mean, like he doesn't seem thrilled about being put on blast like this, but he says it in front of the whole room. Nobody takes Vassaris seriously. He's got to shout, this interminable infighting must cease, and it's like, yeah, I'm,

Vesaris, I'm sure everything will be fine, and it'll just be a peaceful quiet. show from here. You've mentioned a couple times the like, Circe in the Kings Road episode of Game of Thrones or in the scene in the book, and the Allison comp and like, you know, the Allison says your son has been made,

her son is responsible, and Circe says, and what are the dire wolf? What are the beasts of savage your son? Like, these are clear parallels. Something I love. Still not over it. Lady didn't deserve to die and it wasn't right.

It wasn't fair to drama. Anyway, to shout out History of Westrow's podcast again, a show that I love listening to. Aziz on that show pointed out that Corley's busts into the Hall of Nine here saying, what is the meaning of this? Which is the exact same thing that Ned Stark says when he busts in and like his daughters have been called into a thing before him. So like there's a lot of intentional language here that is calling out to that scene. I love it. I love it. Speaking of intentional language, I'm curious what you made of Renera's choice because Jace, you know, whispers to

Reneira what transpired, this insult about questioning their parentage. And this is something that obviously there's a desire to quiet this, to stifle this. But she chooses to kind of shout it into a megaphone in this room to really bring, like almost like the calculation is the only way I will be able to quiet this is first to shout it aloud, to bring everything to a boiling point. Was that the thought process and does that strike you as the right decision given what unfolded? It's not what I would have done personally, but I guess, I perhaps were near as like, well, I tried running away and hiding and they burned my boyfriend and all this other shit has happened. And so let's try a different tactic, I suppose. But again,

sort of like similar to Corley's being like, go get your patron out of the ocean. Like I just, it's not what I would do publicly. No. Right. Speaking of things that people are doing publicly, Can we chat for a second about Allison and Kristen and how absolutely vile what transpires here is? Yeah. So Allison makes this remark about Lanor, right? Says, like, no doubt what entertaining young squires is just something like that.

And Kristen's goddamn laugh, and then again, Harold Westerling gives him a look. I just made my blood boil. Made me so angry. Real, uh, this person's a piece of shit. stuff from Kristen there. Yeah. And like Kristen Cole,

Kristen Cole laughing at a gay joke a few episodes after beating a face off of a gay character. I'm just like, yeah, this guy's not a good guy. Truly, truly awful. Even Kristen doesn't go along with Allison's demand here, which again, given how we feel about Kristen is like pretty notable. Allison's, this is the eye for an eye.

she demands there's a debt to be paid, I shall have one of her son's eyes in return. She says, if the king will not seek justice, the queen will, right? And so then we are forced to think about the phrase the queen's justice, which is the name of a Game of Thrones episode, where Circe puts poison lipstick on a young girl

and ties her of Tyina and Laria. This is when Circe devises the whole, like, awful thing with the Laurian. It's also where John Snowmey's Dineris for the first time, but the notion of the Queen's justice, at least as we are familiar with it from Game of Thrones, was always a terrible thing. Like, the Queen's Justice is not a clean concept. Yeah. You know, so to associate... The depths that you will sink to, absolutely. Yeah. So again, which feels a little charged. But anyway, again, the associations between Allison and Cursie are super

clear. Yeah. Yeah. And that idea that that idea with the Alice and Circee comp and those are those are great specific examples of of comparison. They're like that the idea because how does that end up happening

in season seven it's you're on like I know what you need and want and this idea that the only thing that can bring you peace and your your version of justice is inflicting pain on other people who have inflicted it on you.

It's an eye for an eye. It's a daughter for a daughter. Exactly. And like the horrors that are destined to unfold from that kind of pursuit. So when she, now, okay, we have seen this dagger moment. It's heavily featured in the trailers.

So it's like we knew this was coming. We were looking forward to it. But even so, it is truly shocking. It's shocking for everybody in that scene. It is extra potent for us as viewers, Joe, because of what we know the dagger represents, this dagger of prophecy. So you have the symbolism of Rainira staring at the dagger right against her eye on the backdrop of that fire. Fire and blood we hear throughout this episode, the significance of the might of House Targaryen, this symbol of her duty, this burden of Targaryen rule that has been passed down to her. the secret that Viseras has entrusted to her,

as Allison is lecturing her about how she doesn't abide by the idea of duty. It's the quote that opened our episode, and Reneer is staring into the representation of the duty that she alone understands, and Vassaris understands that she has absorbed. And this is something that we've talked about. Now, I'm still here happy to ride the wave of your, did Chris and Cole see that dagger go in the fire question, right?

He picks it up in this scene, Joe. I know. I thought of you. I thought of you. Someone got back from it immediately. You know I love a theory. I'm here for it. But this reinforces something that I thought was interesting, which is this idea of two sides

of the dance, one side knowing about the prophecy, the dagger, and the other side not. And that's at least what we get in this, in the microcosm of this scene, is that Rineira knows about the heaviness of the burden of the duty that she's carrying. and Allison has no idea. And I love how quickly, how quickly this comes to this raging boil because we've seen Allison on the simmer for so long. And I think, I love this line

that Martin writes in Game of Thrones. It's about Ned Stark and the Lannisters, but it's this line, Some old wounds never truly heal and bleed again at the slightest word. And that's what we watch. watch this show build between Allison and Reneira for five episodes before the time jump we got these adults is that old wound that we're just going to see burst open, you know, again and again.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And it manifests in a literal wound here. And Alicent is confronting. Again, I think these moments where Allison has to confront either what she does directly or what the people who she is surrounding herself with are capable of doing. And like, not only does she say when she's talking to Otto later that she regrets it, that it was ugly. But the way that she drops the blade there, like almost like she's coming out of a fugue state. And yet it is not that at all, because what she is expressing here is like the fundamental core germ and heart of this divide. And we get that from both of them, which is part of why this is such a great moment and such a great scene. You know, we've chatted for the last few episodes about,

this idea of jealousy and resentment and how the way that like Allison, you know, when she's saying here, where is duty wear a sacrifice trampled under your pretty foot again when she's saying I was thinking about Allison Tevin having like a

foot fetish or something just tell me. We were talking about that before we started recording just for some context. I was like, Imagine someone's yelling at you and then they call your feet pretty. And I'd be like, oh, you think my feet are pretty? Wiki feet bookmark, Joe. What do you think?

No? Yes. Are you feeling we? Oh, God. But when Allison says, like, what have I done but what was expected of me for ever upholding the kingdom, the family, the law, while you flouted it all to do as you please. Now, on the one hand, this is such a deeply, like, vulnerable and human moment. And I think we desperately need instances like this where Allison does.

showing the unvarnished root of her resentment and her despair, like the fact that she did not get to do as she wanted and to live her life freely the way that she thinks Renair did. You know, we started like chatting about this at length in that conversation they had on the bench in episode four and how like Allison was saying, well, you're getting to make choices that very few people do. And Renair was saying, but I'm so trapped inside of this. And that that was like such a divide between them. And you feel that so fully here because on the one hand, Reneer,

did get to enjoy a type of freedom, sexual freedom, and in other ways, too, that Allison has not. And that in some ways she is judged, but also maybe in other ways she longs for, but it is also then true that Rainira is bound by duty in just a different form and shape than the version of it that Allison's not only thinks defines her life, but things now should define the nature of the law and the land in the realm. And so like when Rainira fires back at her exhausting, wasn't it, hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness, but now they see you as you are, it's like such an incredible crackling comeback because they are both speaking in a way that because of those first five episodes allows us to understand deeply and like intimately what has informed

that, what has informed what they're saying to each other. But they're also then like, both still wearing this mask either because they've needed to. They've been put in these positions by Sarah, other people in the realm, whatever the case may be, auto. Chipping away. Chipping away at that facade line after line here, scene after scene, you can only put on that front for so long. And so if you're carrying those burdens and those truths inside of you,

like you need to be able to share them with other people. And it's part of why the Renera Damon union, as you mentioned earlier, it feels so, so consequential. There's a couple things I want to say here. Number one, this interaction where my exhausting wasn't it? Now they see who you were, blah, blah, blah. Reminded me so much of fights I used to have with my sister where I was like the younger child, the younger sister.

And I would always be like out of control. And nothing made me anger than when my sister was completely calm and cool and collected. So Reneira taking the calm, cool, collected high ground here is like just. salt in the wound, right? And it made me feel like this is Reneira's version. Because Allison, like everyone in this room sees Allison behaving wildly and out of control. And it reminds me of

sort of some of the stuff we talked about with Reneira, like trailing blood through the castle or leaking breast milk at the small council stuff like that. Yeah, and Allison being like Reneera, when Reneer is leaking breast milk. And this is sort of like the other side of that. It was like, now they see you as you are. And it's both of them, I think, wielding that patriarchal, hysterical woman thing

at each other. And, you know, in that spirit, I would like to try to muster up some sympathy for Allison here if I can. Let's do it. So we got this email from Sarah who wrote in part, The other piece to consider is this fear that has been at the forefront of Allison's mind for a decade that Renera will kill her children in order to strengthen her claim to the throne. This is the first time that idea has been tested with her son being assaulted and maimed. Regardless of fault, the king does nothing to defend Amon, his own child. If this is what happens now, what will happen when more serious and grave threats develop?

By Vassar is doing nothing to avenge Amon, he is proving to Allison that her father was right and that no one will defend her family from harm. I think that's a fair. Fair persistent. Right. Great point. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. When you've been indoctrinated to believe that this wound and attack and assault is inevitable and then it feels like it's happening right in front of you in real time. Like what wouldn't you do to try to stop it? Including, demanding, darling little Luceris, hilarious. I. We're a little Luke. That's a great email. It's a great point. I know, I know, I know that I am biased in favor of Damon to Kerry and I know this.

But I think there's nothing hotter in this episode than when he stands and blocks Kristen Cole. Just like casually launches himself off his lean position on the wall and just stops him with like one hand, honestly. He has more of a wider receivers build, but like could have played left tackle in the NFL. I mean, the I know exactly what you're talking about. Remarkable. Oh my God. I have to say, again, Amund has done some terrible things, but also remarkable is when he stands up,

stitched together, his face stitched together, and says, do not mourn me, mother. It was a fair exchange. I may have lost an eye, but I gained a dragon. Like, incredible line. This is a character to be reckoned with. We can feel this developing in real time in front of us. But I think also, like, I was thinking about it here with his line and with what Otto says to Allison later.

I keep thinking about that moment last week. Allison's line to Amon about how his obsession with those beasts goes beyond understanding. And like which characters actually do understand this about what like what this means and what this represents? And like not every character is focused on the same thing and that's actually good and important. but when does that disconnect surface in some sort of like meaningful way? And I mean, we can go, unless there's anything else you wanted to say, Joe, about this, this eye for an eye moment into that debrief after with Allison's and Otto, which was also fascinating. Yeah. Allison doesn't really get it, but Otto definitely does about what just happened here.

He's thrilled. Couldn't be happier. Which is a totally normal and cool reaction to have when. your grandson loses an eye. But yeah, he, like, he along with everyone else, is like, Allison, maybe put the knife down, babe, like, was the public reaction. But in private, he's quite proud of her and definitely proud of what happened with Amon. What do you want to say about this? When she is saying that she disgraced herself, I was most struck actually not only by, like,

her shame and her regret, but the way that she says that the thing, she did, quote, ensured my husband's favor will forever rest on her, because I think that's a big source of Allison's bitterness and resentment, too. Like, what was this all for? All of this duty, all of this sacrifice, if Viseras doesn't even care about their own kids or side with her and always chooses Reneira. And so for her to feel like the thing that she did to try to stop that in some way cemented it is like a real source of agony for her. And also, Otto just channeling, Allison's not the only one channeling Searcy. I mean, Otto is doing his best when you play the Game of Thrones,

Circe Lannister here, when he says we play an ugly game. And now for the first time, I see that you have the determination to win it. I was so, like, interested in this exchange because, okay, on the one hand, Otto Hightower comes back from his 10-year hiatus, having learned nothing. And in fact, having doubled down, we could see that he is more devoted to House Hightower his aims than ever. Also, like, in some ways he is speaking to Allison as more of a partner than he ever has before. You and I will prevail together, he says. You and I together will prevail, he says. But he's also still treating her as this pawn to deploy. Master your own passions. Go to him.

And like that is that is sickening to see that What he's been saying from the start to her. Go to the king. Oh, God. It's just horrible. Was there anything else that you want to say now that we are talking about Otto about his line about Ament? Claiming Vagar? Oh, what that rogue Eamon has done, winning Vagar to our side, the boy was right, it's worth a thousand times the price he paid.

A lot of people are pointing out that a very famous line from a song of ice and fire is a thousand eyes and won, which is how the three-eyed raven, three-eyed crow is described. So it's worth a thousand times the price he paid, so a thousand, a thousand eyes and one. It may or may not be a reference to that, but it's kind of fun. Should we pause, though, and take stock of the size? We asked Chris this, and that was fun and put him on the spot. But, like, let's do, should we do some quick dragon math here at the end of all things?

And say, it's not the end of all things, but like, because we still need to talk about sea smoke, obviously. but like we have some question mark and some variables given how Rainius was behaving in this episode I don't know where her dragon Maly's belongs but Agon, Amand, and Helena, which are the totality of dragon riders on the green side. That's Sunfire, Dreamfire, and Vagar who's worth like five dragons and one, like huge, right? That's what Autos recognize. recognizing. Reneira, Damon,

those kids, that's Karaxi's Syrax. Vermax, ARAx, Moon Dancer. So Vermax,

ARAx, and Moon Dancer, I think are all too small to ride currently, but that changes quickly.

Jop has an egg. Raina has an egg that we know hasn't hatched, but does have an egg.

And then C-Smoke, as you noted, currently riderless. Yeah. So that's, yeah. That's the Dragon Math.

That's the math. I mean, advantage still, numbers game. Advantage Reneira, right? But those tiny dragons versus Vagar. Like, this is why Otto is so pleased with themselves. Like, then with what's going on here. Vermax is like the size of Vagar's, like, pinky toe. Yeah.

Oh, God. Okay. Lainor. We got a lot of Lainor stuff to cover at the end of this episode and Reneira. So before we get to the fakeout, we have a really emotional exchange. Lainor comes to speak to Reneira. There's a moment of comedy before the more intense exchange sets in when he asks if everyone's okay. And we just like zoom in on Jace's oozing head and Luke's broken nose and their expressions on their faces.

I will miss all of the kids in these current roles. They're just wonderful. I loved when Lainer said I should have been there and Rennar said there should be our house words. I genuinely think Reneira and Damon are far and away

the funniest characters on this show. So good. The shit they say. Such a wry wit. We get a lot of despair, though. The kids leave, Mester leaves, and there are so many

heart-wrenching moments here when Lainer is sharing the different things that are on his mind. mind. He talks first about the idea of protection and says, I've fought dreadful enemies, but I could not defend my dear sister, far from home and in agony. I could not defend you. Talks about their marriage. He says, I failed you, Renira, our marriage. I tried. That I tried, like crushed me. He talks about being gay. He says, I hate the gods for making me as I did.

And Reneira says, I don't, and says that he's a good man with a good heart. And we see this searching. Again, this is like why people are like, oh, you're rooting for Reneer to eat. No, like she says stuff like this, whereas Alicent is making snide jokes in the fucking, no. I like Reneer a lot. So that's all I to say about that. I know. This was a really touching stretch.

And we also get really key sense. set up inside of one of these touching lines because Lenore says, we made an arrangement all those years ago to do our duty and yet explore happiness. And they kind of both, they both share a little chuckle, like, oh, what sweet summer children we were when we thought that was possible, right? And he continues, but there are times when I think these things cannot mutually exist, which is devastating. And he says that he's recommitting. He's going to choose that duty and supporting her ascension over his own happiness. But we can glean, as we'll talk about more in a few minutes, when we watch this death fake out unfold, that they decide to flip this, that he can fulfill

his duty to Reneer up by leaving so that she can marry Damon and in so doing, hopefully, find his own happiness. Now, that is not an idea without tradeoffs because he's leaving his family, his name, his life behind. But hopefully that he can find. that happiness. And he has this line where he says, you know, that he's loved the boys, but perhaps but I have not mayhaps love them enough is what he says. I think it's really interesting. I've seen so many interpretations of what happens here with Lanor at the end and we'll go through sort of our understanding of what the plan and order events is. But like, I do not see this as in any version of this is Reneira cruelly turning away a man who is deeply, deeply attached

to his children in his life here. We have seen Leinor in the last episode talk about dying to go to the stepstones and be back in battle and have an adventure. And like, yes, he does love these boys. But like, maybe not enough. You know, it's just sort of like he's deeply unhappy. He's crying. He's drunk and crying in the ocean.

Like, that's who Leinor is in this role. And so what happens next is not a clean thing because, as we've mentioned, innocent, as far as we know, man dies in order to carry this plan out. But I see this as an act of kindness. Yes, Reneer is getting what she wants, but she's freeing him. So I see it as an act of kindness. We'll get to it more. Let's chat for a second here about the Greens departing before we go back into the way that this plan takes shape.

What do you want to say about your guy, Laris? Team Green and shambles here. All right. Again, if we're talking about, like, let's be sly and subtle, Laris not so sly and subtle here, right? When he offers to bring an eye, Alison looks upset, but also maybe slightly tempted, right? But she tells him his devotion is not going to notice, but she'll need a friend with skill and discretion. So, discretion, Laris. Let's just cool out.

Wait till we're in my chambers and we're having one of our famous, shoeless dinners together, you know? Yeah. Nothing more discreet than coming to shout on a ship about whether you'd like me to go claim an eye for you. True devotion. But yeah, Viseris is in shambles. Yes. Allison's just pouring wine down his throne.

It's a real messy time for Team Green, honestly. One thing I love about Viseris is that there's always a blanket nearby. I love a blanket. Ghosts. You know, cuddling up after a hard day. Aspirational. Okay. Renair's plan, taking shape here.

We get a ton of, as we allude to, really fascinating fire talk from Renera and Damon that tells us and shows us how they think about themselves in their Targaryen lineage. Reiner says, fire has such strange power. Everything that House Targaryen possesses is owed to it, yet it has cost us both what we loved. Of course, speaking of Lena and Harwin. And Harwin. Yeah, yeah. We also get clues in this first, the first part of this exchange, because we cut in between these scenes, these scenes a lot.

We also cut between them speaking the common tongue and High Valerian as is their wont. Reiner says fire is a prison. And again, I think you do feel that idea of then like the. burden of her duty as the air, the sea offers an escape. So this is one of the big, for us, one of the big supporting bits of evidence for all of these characters, Renira, Damon, Lainor and Carl are in cahoots together. Cahooots. And the sea is that escape there for her to marry Damon, for Lainor to go live a different life. This is the stretch here where Reneira, she's speaking in Valeria, but says the greens allowed, which again, very, very consequential there.

Something we've been like not saying outside the book section is the idea of team green and team black. But like, oh, God. Those are the teams. Here we are. Here we are. And she says she needs him. Here's that idea again, meeting him. Ask him to get hitched, to get married.

She invokes Egon, the Conqueror, which I was really interested in because Damon has, of course, infamously done this previously and earned Viseris's horrified. wrath in return. But I loved that this was a pitch that was layered and nuanced and anchored in many different, like equally present things. I think there is this shared tragedy, this feeling of being cast aside that not only did Rainer a just voice, but that has kind of permeated both of their arcs. There's a very sincere attraction and desire. You know, Viseras said, find one that pleases you. And she sure did. She has. Yeah. There's this political savviness with you as my husband and Prince Consort, my claim would not

be so easily challenged, thinking, thinking, though, strategically about what will help to strengthen and cement her standing. And then the sense of shared targ kinship, right? Which is clearly what Allison is thinking, engaging Aegon to Helena, right? is like, let's shore it up targ on targ marriage. Let's please the realm with this sort of thing. And like she has a little bit, obviously the Tyrion where like armor speech is one of the most famous in thrones and really focuses on like, actually if you're not one of the people in a position of power, this is how to make your way through your day. And obviously it's different here.

But I think there's like a shared strand of DNA when Renera says the Valerians are of the sea, but you and I are made of fire. always been meant to burn together. It's like, this is who we are. Let's own it. Speaking of Tyrion, this great line, never forget what you are. For surely, the world will not. Make it your strength that it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it and it will never be used, right? This is what you're talking about. So it's like that, um, lean into it. Lean into your dark nature. Tim is a leaner. Oh, God. All right, Joe, let's go through the the lanar fake out here. Where do you want to, where do you want to start with this? Well, good news is Damon, Uncle Damon has packed the murder cloak for the funeral. You always need it.

Yeah. You never know when you're going to need the old murder cloak. But so he approaches Carl and the murder cloak, right? And this is something that book readers are ready for because a version of the story in the book is that Damon pays Carl to kill Lainor and then kills Carl. So when we hear Damon talk to Carl about you can start a new life elsewhere, we're meant to think, oh, he's trying to tempt Carl with money and a new life across the narrow sea.

But at the same time, we see Damon kill someone in the stairwell. Need a corpse to swap out. What's that about, question mark, right? Carl and Lena have this very fake seeming duel. Lainor, I have notes on your acting. The witness that they have there runs off. We will need witnesses, I said, right?

The witness they have a young boy runs off. And in that time, they swap Lainor's body for the guy that Damon killed. And he's burnt. So I guess you can't identify the body. I feel like maybe his parents would know that it's a different body, but I guess not. Rainis and Corle's very upset. And this is my biggest issue with the plan, so that we're not bringing Rainis and Corleys in on it. Maybe we will eventually.

And Lenore we see head shaved, heads off with Carl. A lot of people have compared this to Gendry rowing away. from Dragonstone. Like I understand what happened here that Ranira and Lainor and Carl and Damon together all four of them have come up with this plan. Damon helps, actively helps the plan happen, make the plan happen by killing a rando

and sticking him in the fire and all that sort of stuff. A lot of people, A, are confused by what happened, just generally confused by the order of events. And then B, I've seen a lot of different interpretations of like, oh, Reneira wanted him dead, but a Damon act, you know, like, I really believe there's only one way to read this, which is all four of them are in cahoots. Reneer wants to marry Damon, yes, but she does not want to kill Lainor. But as they discuss, it doesn't hurt them for people to think that maybe she did to instill fear and have that reputation. It is possible, though, given how many people are confused or have these differing interpretations, that the show may have air. slightly in favor of a surprising twist, a confusing edit that baffled some people, you know?

Yeah, definitely. What about, okay, but what about C-Smoke, though? Okay, so Lainer... Yeah, I have a question about this. Ditch the hair. Tell me your question about C-Smok, Mallory. Lanor's... One, I'm just like, what if C-Smok, like, follows him or tries to find him, and then that's it?

Cover blown. Now, you know, again, this is like a change from Fire... and blood where as far as... So there are two ways to put this, I guess. One is this is a change. In the book, Lainor is dead, period. He's stabbed. So like, there's

no equivalent of the burning of the body to try to say, oh, well, maybe there was like a swap out. Doesn't... There is this line about, like, how his death is such a mystery and remains a mystery. So, like, maybe there's some room there. But I think the fact that

the stabbed body is there makes it very hard to say that he's alive in the book. So it's different. And it happens in the middle of a market. Tons of witnesses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess like you could say, though, that this is another example of like what history remembers. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's what happened. But I at least am going with that this is just a change. And I'm, I'm glad. I'm glad that Lainor was not killed and is not dead. I think that's a good change. It does introduce some canon questions like the Seasmoke, the point you're making.

We heard as recently as last week in the Dragon Pit training sequence about like, once you bond with your dragon, take no commands from anyone else while you live. Right. Like there's no precedence. Yeah. This is just new. In George R. Martin for there to be two dragon riders while a dragon, like you cannot claim a dragon while their writer is still alive.

So the question is, is Seasmoke just going to be hanging around unclaimable? What's going to happen? Like, and would that not be suspicious? Yeah, right. I wonder if Lainor had a chat with Seasmoke and was like, listen. Here's what I need to do. How? I don't know.

I mean, I'll just say, like, I agree with your interpretation. That's mine as well that this, that everybody is in cahoots. And I think the, you know, the grant him this kindness set him free line. guess is among the other bits of evidence that we, but I think that what you pointed out about like the very overt they are acting. Like this is, there's just no way Lainor walks in sees Carl's, Carl, Aaron is like, what are you doing here? Like, they're roaming drunk through the halls together. Like, I think that's a real tale of the, the damans involved in with the body. It's, it's definitely like, I'm interested to if this, if our interpretation is correct and they're all

in on it together, then what it says, like, that Lainor makes a choice that's different from Rineras, you know, going across the narrow sea to live a different life. Now, Reneiro didn't love Kristen or want to be with him in that way. But, like, I like that, too, that the same thing is not right for everybody. Though, again, like, while I'm thrilled

that Lainor is alive, I do think it's, and I hope that he made the choice that is right for him and that brings him happiness and allows him to follow happiness. But it's like, it's not without tradeoffs because he is leaving his family, his dragon, his name behind. And, like, it's heartbreaking that that's a thing

that he has to do. This is what Laynor says to Carl with a cue. Who let you in here? Why are you in my father's hall? Yes. And Carl says you've always looked down on me. Like, it's, okay. It's play acting.

All right, we got this email from Severin that I think is worth reading because a reason that a lot of people assume that the reason that Laynor survives here. And Carl survives because there's a version of this where neither of them survives that Damon kills Carl. after Carl kills Lanor, is that House of the Dragon did not want to kill Joffrey two weeks ago and then kill two other gay characters just a couple weeks later, given that this is a really dangerous trope

in fiction, the barrier gayest trope. So people are, you know, maybe giving House of the Dragon credit for being like, okay, great, two of your characters, gay characters survive. We got this email from Seven that I thought was interesting, though. Seven writes,

George R. Martin has had ample time to write a homosexual man or woman into his body of work who does not end up persecuted, murdered, and or tortured. He has to date not done so. The way that the writers of the show decided to deal with the homosexual characters, the most recent episode of House of the Dragon is nice, kind of. But even this telling of the story is just banishment. He, he being Martin, uses homosexual characters as a device to underscore the conservative, religious elements of the stories he tells. He could write two homosexual characters. one persecuted by the state and one who just has a normal life, but he does not. Every homosexual character is written thus far has come to no good end. Escaping to another continent with a bald head is not a victory for homosexuals. It's a victory for heteronormitivity. And like, I agree with this. I do not. Something I will say is like, George R. Martin's, I'm not making excuses, but George started writing this series in the early mid-90s,

or probably began it in the 80s, right? And I will give him the credit that at that time, like queer characters were not necessarily being centered at all. So the fact that like Renly and the Rainbow Guard existed in a Song of Ice and Fire felt progressive at the time. And it certainly does not feel progressive to when you start to tally up the ultimate outcome for all of the queer characters and Georgia Martin at this point in 2022. So I think that's a great email we got for. I guess we should just talk for another minute here about the idea that Damon and Reneira seemed to want people to think that they're responsible because, you know, Reneer says this will

cost Lord Corlis and Reneas, their only remaining child in the realm will whisper that I was somehow responsible. Damon says, we will know the truth of it. Reneira replies. They will fear what else we might be capable of. Now, some of this is like I have practical questions about, you know, we see like the moment where Reneas walks away from Corlis says. you noted. And if Corliss and Renice are also among the people who think this, or at a minimum,

are hearing these whispers and the ideas entering their minds, then does that not risk compromising an allegiance that they can't afford to lose? Like the value of House Valerian's Alliance is one of the most clearly established things in the show to date. So that just feels like really perilous and risky. I guess what you can say is that they're counting on the grandchildren. Not only because we talked about the way that Renice feels toward Harwin's kids, but Damon and Reneera, Bella and Raina, are now a part of that family too. And Reni's care about that. One grandparent is alleging to at least two of the grandchildren that are in their household here. Right. Exactly. But I don't know. I'm really curious to see like

how that shakes out and what that looks like. I wanted pot. So a big thing that we talked about on Talk to Thrones was this idea of likeability, like what this does. The fact that Damon, Damon does not kill Lainor here after killing Rhea a couple weeks ago. And how in the books, it feels like Damon is like, whatever's in the way of me marrying Rania, I'm going to wipe off the board. But how that makes him even harder to root for if he were to do this with poor Lainor, who we quite like here, right? This question of likeability keeps coming up with House of the Dragon in comparison to Game of Thrones where I think it was easier to latch on to first Ned Stark.

You think my life is this precious thing. John, Rob, Sonsa, Aria, like, you know, you can hold on to those kids, Bran, Ricken, I guess. Hold on to those kids while the Lannisters and everyone else is scheming around them, right? And that people are finding it harder to take purchase on a character here. I have a couple things to say about that. Like, one, I will say, this Martin quote about Faulkner, right? Martin says, as Faulkner says, all of us have the capacity in us for great good and for great evil, for love, but also for hate.

I wanted to write those kinds of complex character in a fantasy and not just have all the good people get together to fight the bad guy, right? So, like, yes, we've had more stereotypical heroes in a song of vice of fire than we do in House of the Dragon, but it is always. been Martin's intention to create a world in which people are extremely messy. And at this extremely high stakes when we're talking about magical beasts and, you know, thrones made of swords and all that sort of stuff, the messiness means sometimes you murder a serving man to save your queer husband. Like that's the math we're doing here, you know? I'm not defending that. I'm just

saying that that's sort of the world that Martin is painting here. I think it's interesting how the show is working really hard to try to make it easier for us to purchase onto Reneer and Damon. One of our listeners Tina wrote in to point out that in that sequence where Reneer is proposing to Damon, there's a line from that sequence, she will block my way, presumably Reneer talking about Allison, that is in many, many trailers, but was not in the final cut. So they cut Rainira saying she will block my way. So like whatever language Reneer has here about Alicent talking shit about Alicent is cut out of this scene. So instead it's about her vulnerability, her feeling that, you know, but it's less about her vilifying Alicent in that moment, right? Which I

think is an interesting edit. We also got this email from Mara and Mara, I love an email. I love an email written by two people. But they write on last week's podcast. you shared a fantastic thesis from a listener about House of the Dragons subverting portrayals of feminism in the traditional historical fiction fantasy genre. This week we are finding ourselves a little disappointed in what feels like a lack of nuance in the Allison-Rennier relationship. Empathizing with Allison has become increasingly challenging, although the narrative seems to be juxtaposing the duty and piety of Allison with the more family-oriented and humanized character of Renera, both theoretically reasonable, morally defensible positions. Alison clearly emerges

as the writer's antagonist in this episode. Moreover, the other greens, Agon, a drunk, horny team bully, Kristen, our psychopath-jilted boyfriend, Otto, emotionally manipulated father of the year, and these babes forgot about Laris, but add Laris to the pile, are substantially less likable than the emerging blacks,

the adorable strong, sorry, Valerian children, Damon's girls, the self-made correlates, the self-made Corleys, it's hard not to immediately see who the showrunners want us to support. So the showrunners have their thumb on the scale for the blacks here in a way that the book does not necessarily. And I think that's an attempt to give the audience someone heroic to root for. That being said, I don't feel like, to go back to that Fokker quote, I'm not sure we need that in order to enjoy Martin's world. But I think that's some of the calculus that the that the show writers that the writers are doing

to try to give a story that audiences are more familiar with. Yeah, I agree. I think that like, in those few minutes where we considered in real time watching this episode, the possibility that Renera

would have decided to kill Lainor. Like, obviously, that was not, that's not something we would have wanted. We don't want Lainer to die. We don't want Reneer to be capable of that. To be clear, I'm really glad that didn't happen.

Yeah. But like, there, again, in real time as I'm watching it, there's like a part of my brain that's thinking, oh, they're really going for this. I got a little excited, right? Because in the book, it's Damon. If it's anyone, it's Damon. Right. And I was like, oh, my God.

Are they making it, Renira? Oh, they are going there with Renira. And then they were like, no, quite the opposite. She has concocted a plan in which her nice gay husband can go off and frolic with his boyfriend, you know? Yeah. And it's like, I think it's interesting. Like, so Zach Cramm wrote a great piece about this for Theringer.com on a great website on Sunday night right after this episode, this idea that like these more traditional protagonist, antagonist heroes versus villains divides, much like what that awesome email just sketched out. Like, on the one hand, that's very traditional television storytelling.

There's nothing that's like shocking or surprising about that in a vacuum or even inside of the wider Thrones universe, right? I do think it's interesting, though, that so much of the run-up to the show was spent sharing and espousing this. There's no aria in the story idea. Because like while that on the one hand is, it is true. You know, what Damon says in this episode, like everybody's capable of depravity. We've already talked about what Damon himself has done. Like there are plenty of bad or complex moral gray. We always talk about the moral gray characters and happenings on Reneera's team.

Definitely. Not everybody over there is an angel. But it's, I think, very difficult to not feel that the show is much more firmly orienting Reneira as the protagonist and character who you're supposed to be aligning with at this point. in a way that has, that has surprised me, both based on the book and based on, again, that George, like, very active messaging in the run-up to the show.

So, I don't know, I'll be curious to see, like, I guess that will continue. I don't know. I'll be curious to see if it does. Because, again, like, why do the five episodes of making us more sympathetic and empathetic toward Allison, if you're just going to go here?

I guess you could say, like, because that's the only place you're going to get that or where you're going to really get the focus on it. But I don't know. I do still have some questions about that. It's interesting because Twitter is not real life. We know that. I swear we know that.

But I put something on Twitter yesterday. I think it was about like, you know, like ability in people to root for and how I find that there are several people to root for. And I got a lot of responses from people saying they thought Renier was the, like, worst, like the person who has done the most villainy on the show, which to me is an insane reading of the show. But those people exist. And so I don't know how big of a population that is,

but I just think it's funny with all this hedging and hemming and hawing and, you know, whatever done to make Rainier seem more heroic, there are still people who think she is not heroic in any way. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. And I think it's also true that like even in the, more traditional Game of Thrones original series paradigm

of like Starks versus Lannisters you want the Starks to win and again this was part of what Cram I thought did a great job of exploring his piece you want the Starks to win but that doesn't mean you're not deeply invested in Tyrion

in Jamie and you know yeah so like that I think is an essential element if it is going to be more of that divide I think for me like we had a lot of people blast me via email in other places. Like, why do you like the character of Laris so much? He seems like such a snake. And I'm like, I love snakes. Sorry, snakes are interesting. Like, I love Circe as a character. I love watching her. I love, guess what show I love? Succession. And so do a lot of people.

And who are we supposed to be rooting for on that show? So, you know, a lot of question. Need Laris and Allison, given all the foot talk in this episode to go from talking about eyes to to walk in the teak planks talking about toenail fungus. Really give us that succession energy here. I was like, where are we going? All right. Oh, my God. Decks shoes.

All right, should we talk about the only good wedding we've ever seen? No one died. Huge progress. Found in blood, Joe, Damon and Roe Niro pop over to Dragonstone for a very quick, very quiet wedding. We get a Valerian bloodbinding ritual. Super Tarks.

Here it is again. Fire and blood, slicing open their lips and their hands with dragon glass. Yeah. Wearing these outfits that, like, incorporate the fire, the flame imagery. This was just, this was awesome. Love an Omra, like a hand-dipped-died, you know, outfit. So in the house the dragons built behind the scenes, they talked about how these are supposed to be, like, sort of the formal version of the dragon-keeper. outfits that we've seen on the show.

Also, David Peterson, who's done all the languages on Game of Thrones and now the show, says that the glyphs that Damon and Reneer paint on each other's forehead, say, fire and blood, like that that's what they're painting on each other's forehead and blood. But he was like, but his blood, so you can't really read the glyphs. But that's what it's supposed to say. I hope they get tats. But I love, you know, to go back to that Tyrion armor quote that you said it, and then I decided to read in full.

This email from Lucy, I think, is interesting because Lucy says about Lainor, he abanded his Valerian and Targaryen heritage, leaving his dragon, shaving his white hair, abandoning his titles and maybe even his wealth, question mark. In making the decision that very closely parallels the one Renier refused to make with Kristen, while Renier-L-Ele is even further into a Targaryen heritage by marrying Damon, woo-hoo, incest, says Lucy, at Dragonstone, in that very very very important. very traditional ceremony. So yeah, lean in, lean all the way into the targ.

Bella's face says a lot. I'll be very curious to see how his blooded family does. And I hope it's great. Well, you know, they didn't wait long. They didn't wait long to get hitched. That's why I think Bella's face, Bella is making that face. But, like, I think that Rineira has, I think, in theory, Rineiro would be a great stepmom. she's so loving to her boys.

I feel like she would be really sweet to these girls. But are these girls going to be down with it? I don't know, actually. I don't know the answer to that. But we'll find out with a new cast once again, Joe. Because as you can see in the teaser for next week, the kiddos have been aged out. New performers coming in.

You ready for a new cast yet again? I mean, I really liked these kids. I'll be sad to see them. go. That being said, I think this is the last huge time jump. And this is several years we're getting new, the kids are now going to be like teens, right? And this is part of what we've been racing towards. Oh, I said this in the in the non-book section. I said I was going to talk about it in the book section last week. And then I completely forgot to in my like COVID days. But I was speculating as to why we were racing ahead. And I won't say specifically like what I think we're racing.

racing tours, but I think that there's like a big bang that they want to end the season on and they had to hop, skip, and jump to get there. I think that's okay to say. So like I could be wrong. I don't know how the season's going to end, but I feel like they marked their, we want to end there. It's like saying, it's like making season one of Game Thrones being like, okay, we want to end by taking up Ned Stark's head. So what do we need to do in order to get there, right? And Danny Stargots hatching, right? So what are we, aiming towards. And I feel like I know what they're aiming towards. So I feel like I understand why they're hopping and jumping. It is still somewhat disorienting. We'll see how next week goes. I'm eager

to see these new actors because I'm sure they're all phenomenal. But yeah, I'll miss these kids. Same. I can't wait to meet the new performers. We'll miss this squad. Titanate. You changed our life. Thank you. You really did. Okay. He's like me? That's just incredible. It's really amazing. I hope that he's a immediately cast in like 12 new projects. All of these kids were phenomenal. I really, I will miss seeing them.

I really well. I was texting you that I really hope that they just cast Titenin as someone else on the show like they did with the young actor played Tomon. I love it. And I hope they do. It was a Lannister, Martin Lannister. Or Martin Lannister. Oh, God.

All right. It is time for our rapid fire episode awards. It is time to make the eight. Oh, the sound of clashing steel. really hits in a new way after this episode. Whigwatch show, best worst. Best, I'm going to give it to, I'm going to give it to the actor who plays Lainor who did not have to sit for his wig fitting that day.

Like, congratulations, dude. Looks great with a shave head. John McMillan, he was great. He was great. And I mean, we'll talk about this. We have questions about whether or not we'll see him again. Dead in the book. Could he come back?

We don't know. worst I regret to inform you that I am forced to give this to Damon Targaryen because someone sent me a close-up of his wig on the beach and the back was sort of like pulled up by the wind like it was flapping in the breeze so whoever laid his wig that day not fully glued it down

the sea salt of the sea did its trick on the wig show it wasn't the only part of Damon flapping in the breeze that day you know Tell me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Steve.

I don't even have to say phrasing anymore. My God, Beesbury is here for me. Okay, what about you? My best is Renira's braided funeral hair. Great stuff. Been waiting for this look

and really loved it. My worst, I'm sorry for not being original because I pick this every week, but I will really actually not apologize because it remains the right pick every week and it's Fisaris. And it will be.

The five strands still clean too is there. It's just the little like wisps of like seagrass. Patty. Oh, God. Fit watch. Best, worst. Fit. All right.

So best goes to the wedding drip, right? The dip-died robes. The matching robes loved it. Worst, I hate to do this to them because I love them and I think they're darling. But Bela and Raina had these really dumb-looking cloaks. Meanwhile, Jason Luke are wearing, like, lux, really nice cloaks. Their dad is Captain Cloak, you know? I feel like Damon really let them down.

One of my favorite memes from last week was after Lena died, and there's that like shot of Damon on the roof with the girls, and someone captioned it, like, so do you girls know how to do your own hair. Anyway, white dad Damon did not dress his girls as well as they should have been dressed for their mother's funeral, I believe. And so I'm just saying, like, maybe stepmom, Rainier can get some nice clothes commission for the girls. What do you say? I have the same pick for best.

For worst, I'm also going with some child garb here. But I'm picking, not that there was anything wrong with the outfits, this is a very specific reason. Jason Luke having to just wear their blood-drenched kits into the next day? Like, can someone give them a towel and a fresh outfit? What is happening? I know there's a lot going on, but come on. So that's my pick. Number three, they got bigger and bigger.

Best bit of Dragon Dumb. I don't know how to pick something for Vagar, and I assume you will. And so I'll just give a shout out to background performer Sunfire who looked incredible in the sunlight on the hillside. What are you going to say about Vagar? I'm just all of it. Amen claiming Vagar, period. Incredible.

Done. It was amazing and I will not pick a single moment within it because it was all great. Number four. The doctrine of exceptionally weird sex stuff. I would like to know a few. We started calling it Incest Corner and now we can again. I would like to know if you are

if you're going to pick anything other than an uncle fucking his niece at his wife's funeral on the beach under a boat. Great, moving on. If this show had Netflix subtitles. Okay, I'm, I am shamelessly, I've run out of synonyms,

so I am shamelessly circling back to a stranger thing's stall were, us, you know, just a classic stranger thing's word. So I'm going to say blade slices, eye socket wetly. Wetly.

Yeah. I went with juicely, which you've used it a couple of times. I went with eyeball ribs and splits juicely. Yeah, someone send it, please. Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com if you have more synonyms for wetly,

because I'm constantly looking for them. Moistly? They use moistly on stranger things, too. This was more than, Yeah, this was more than moistness. Oh, yes. Juicy. Juicy.

Archmaster Ebrose could never. Best quote. I cannot give it to anything other than, where is duty, where is sacrifice? It's trampled under your pretty foot again. I love it. It's a great one. I have a really hard time picking one for this episode because there were so many.

I'm really torn between Renera, Reneas, but now they see you as you are. It's just like, I feel like that's a quote we'll be saying for 50s. years. I did love Otto's line about about Amon so much. I loved, I also loved Corliss's. What is this brief for to life if not the

Pursuit of Legacy? I'm going with the Renara line. Because then we each picked something in that exchange, which feels right. Wait, what if I change my answer to you actually do have one thing in common. We both fancy creatures with very long legs. Oh my God. Again, you maniac.

All right. Incredible. Joanna Robinson's most reliable narrator tracker. I'm calling everyone a loser this week because they changed it from the book. No one got it right. Laynor lives. Hashtag queer rights. Laynor lives.

I ask your favor, Joe. Who won the episode? So I've been splitting this right actor and character. And this is a really fun one this week because I think it's a complete reverse of last week where I had Allison as the winner and Emma Darcy as my performer. and this week I'm saying Reneura is the winner and Olivia Cook is my performer which I think maybe just means I love a loser like maybe it's fun to watch someone just like

unravel and lose it but I thought Olivia Cook was incredible His performances are so good Where is a sacrifice But Reneera I mean she finally gets to marry her uncle And she didn't even have to kill her gay husband in order to do so Great stuff Maris Daman reaches that pact with Lanor Viserra sides with her in front of everyone

It's definitely a win for Reneer was of course sorely tempted to pick Amen because of the Fagard claiming, but it's got to be Reneer. It has to be. All right, it is time for our death send-off. Steve, please give us some reverse Trakara screeches. Let's sort of like rewind

them. Let's walk them back for Lainor, who is not in fact dead. Steve, give us some Trachara screeches for the poor soul who died. because everybody needed a corpse to throw into the fire. Drakaris! Oh, God. Joe?

Yeah. It's time for faceless man watch. Great stuff. Did I learn my lesson by not picking Dauphrey last time and should I pick that poor man who went in the fire and literally has no face anymore? Probably. But what I'm going to pick instead is Swin'ittalia,

who is just... Everywhere she shouldn't be. That's a great pick. I'm going with Laris. I have a difficult time finding another explanation for his bloodlust other than he is looking constantly to offer up new names to the many face God. That's all I got. Wow. Okay.

It is time for our book, look ahead. So if you don't want to hear this, thanks for hanging. You're free to go. Everyone else, stick around. It's time for a dance of drag. And dreams. Okay, Joe. Not quite as much here today as in some past episodes, but there are a few, in part because

we've talked about some of the things that this episode also teases before, but there are a few things we wanted to hit on. Damon and Reinerer are officially hitched. In fire and blood, nobody's happy about this. No. I'm really curious. It's not going to go over the way that Renera thinks it is. But like, depending on how big of the time, the time jump is, will we even see that?

Like that's one of the things I'm so curious about because in fire and blood we get this quote, King court and comments were all outraged by the news. Neither Damon's wife nor Rainier's husband have been dead even half a year. I mean, in the show it might be like a day, who knows?

To wed against so soon was an insult to their memories, his grace declared angrily. Is that going to happen? Is that going to be a wound that lingers or would we just be like skipping over that because of so much time passes? Yada, yada.

I feel like we're going to get some comments about it from the puddle of goo that is facet. Oh my God. Speaking of goo, let's talk about the future kiddos. Come on. Come on. Oh, my God. On the way. I mean, this is my favorite bitch move of Renera is to name her child. It's incredible. Also name her child, Agon.

An all-timer. Honestly. It's an all-timer. A-gon the dragon bean. But he's, I mean, Agon's going to sit on the throne eventually, so, you know. Agon the third. He's common. Because all of the other children have to die for, oh, yeah. Yeah, poor Chris Ryan. Chris Ryan was doing some Googling and we were like, what did you find out, Chris?

He was like, all over near his sons die. And we were like, not all of them. Just most of them. Don't Google things Chris Ryan with a cue. I'm so like this is such a this is such a moment where like oh they finally found each other Damon and Reneer they are meant to be but like those who read the book know that this ends with like Damon falling in love with nettles and like that's a shadow hanging over all of this is like how long are they going to feel like soulmates married to each other

and how soon is Damon to be like what about this hot young track and writer I've just met. That's going to be a tough look for Damon Targaryen. God. You know, it's rough. Only thing I could say in his defense is he was pretty clear from the jump, like, oh, yeah, marriage, sure. But then where is duty? Mowler, where is sacrifice? Oh, God, indeed. Anything else you want to tease on the Damon or Nera front? Yeah, like, we've talked a couple weeks in a row about Allison's, like, faith and how this, like, her side of this war might be a little, like, Faith of the Seventy.

We see in the trailer for next week. She's got a seven-pointed star. Yeah, a giant seven-pointed star that she's wearing. And I like how that stands in contrast to this, like, very religious ceremony we see between Damon and Rainier here, this very targy, primal, you know, sort of... Yeah. They're not getting married

in the light of the seven. That's a real deal. But it's its own, like, deep faith thing is Damon and the Targness. So, yeah, absolutely. What about Eamon and Luke? Okay. So we talked in the main stretch about how heartbreaking all of this Luke stuff was, and there was a lot we could say there.

The thing that we couldn't say, and this is, I think, increasingly we, I think, are both feeling sure that this is where the season will end. with Amand and Vagar killing Luke and his dragon. The Shipbreaker Bay dole set up was heavy in this episode. I mean, that line... You will die screaming in the dark.

Just as your father did. Like, really, really rough. Yeah, count on like three episodes until poor little Luke. I mean, it'll be a little older, but not that much older. It's going to die. It's going to be really tough.

And even just like hearing little Luke talk about the idea of everybody else dying and him becoming the Lord of Driftmark was like so heart-wrenching because he's he's one of the first to go. Yeah, that's brutal. How about Baila and Jace? Can we get a little handhold here? Precious. Yeah, so Baila and Raina get betrothed to Jason Luke.

As you mentioned, Luke taken off the board pretty quickly. It's terrible. Oh, God. Spoiler alert. Jace will also be taken off the board trying to save his brothers. But he and Baylor and Gaysher a while, and I think they could do, like, kind of like...

And then there's also this idea of, like, is Jace going to have a little romance with Sarah Snow? Like, is that going to happen? Question, we don't know. But there's a possibility for, like, a sweet little teen... I mean, Baylor is so cool. Bail and Jace be really cute. I don't know.

I can't wait. I can't wait to see it all. How about Helena? Again, I have to wonder if this like, Amon tenderness that you and I are both, like, feeling, is that going to set up his reaction to blood and cheese to be, like, a massive thing? That's the sense I'm getting, that they're setting that up, right?

That he has a soft spot for his weird bug sister. Okay. We also got this. We also got... Some people also run in thinking that Helena is like, like, like, atypical,

atypical coded or something like that. I don't know. I have questions about that, but we got this email from Travis, which I thought was a really cool interpretation of, further interpretation of Helena's little line in this episode about flesh dragons and dragons of thread or whatever. So Travis wrote,

on its surface, the dream points to the two sides. Green and black, hand of the king, Otto Haid Tower helps to shape the spool of green, his daughter, Queen Allison, and her brood of green dragons, egg on the second, Helena, and Emma and while Princess Renera and her new husband slash old uncle, Damon Dargarian, spools the black, which denotes the color of her dress and the books and potentially the legitimacy of her strong boys with their dark hair, threads of black, I like that. The dream also calls back to Vesaris, maker of both green and black, and his hand in the

model making of old Valeria, the original weavers of dragons. Additionally, the Dream foreshadows the dragon seeds to come and the various bastard claimants who pop up in and around Kings Landing during the dance, all of who have been woven from Targary and Flesh. If we jump to the main series, the Dragons of Flesh and Dragons of Thread called to mind both Danny and her three living, breathing dragons, coming into future conflict with the Mummer's Dragon, young Griff,

who is a potential line of thread from a different black dragon, Young Griff. Still outraged that young Griff was not on the show. Fagon? Fagon! Fagon! Finally, as a scene closes with Helena trapping the spider in the shell, the image cuts to Laris,

strong of Veris and Littlefinger and Tyrion and Kybrin-like figure who weaves his own loom of death and destruction. I don't think there's ever too much you can read into a Helena line at this point, so I welcome all of these emails. All right, what do you want to say about A-Man and Damon? Just that even though it's only people stare at each other across the room and for certain characters in this episode,

it was difficult given the magnitude of what happens here to not like think into the distant future and the showdown to come. Like those final moments with Amon and Vagar and Damon and Karexis in the battle above the gods eye. And I think in part just because, you know, Damon's final act of jumping from his dragon onto Vagar to drive. drive dark sister through Amon's eye socket has always been like so iconic. But, you know,

when you think of the consequence of the vagar claiming, like, Damon and and Amon and the battle above God's eye is going to be like one of the signature moments of the entire series.

So it's just impossible not to think about it. We got this email from Angel that I'm, I'm not going to read in full. Interesting theory about, sorry, it might be on hell, by the way. But like an interesting theory about Damon being, Damon himself being a dreamer. I'm really interested to see what Damon knows and when he knows it about the prophecy. We still don't have that answer.

We haven't gotten that trailer line yet. Right. Yeah. Dreams didn't. Yeah. Dreams didn't. Dragons did. But I love this theory in this email.

it says, did Damon learn his unbuckled, speaking of Damon versus Aemond, did Damon learn his unbuckled saddle to diving dragon jump maneuver from an epic dragon lord account, speaking of the like books he was reading in Pantos? Oh my God. I love this. Doesn't seem like something they teach at Dragon Pit University. Just love that line. Wow.

We need to like make Dragon Pit University merch or something. Yeah. It's amazing. Wow, I love that idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God.

Into it. Into it, totally. Okay, let's talk about Uncle Vamond and his shitty eulogy. So, like, next week's episode, when the episode titles are released, I was trying to figure out, like, what's going to happen in each episode. Next week's episode is called Lord of the Tides. So I always had that episode marked as Corlis gets really sick, or as we hear in the trailer, this is like an injury from this episode.

But Quo Sadaa-Kamish, And the question is, who stands to inherit drift mark if Corleus is out of commission? There was so much, I would dare I say, ham-fisted telegraphing towards that episode in this episode with Corley's conversation with. Yeah, Corley's conversation with Luke, Rainis' conversation with Corleys and Vaman's, like, eulogie, because Vaman is the instigator. But in this version, he'll have Raine's on his side. Vaman is the instigator of these boys who are clearly not Lainor's children should not inherit Drift Mark. And then there's like a couple, like when Corleys comes into the Hall of Nine to find the burned corpse in the fireplace, he says, my fucking all. Like there's just like a couple like Corleys is the Lord of the Banner sort of moments in this episode.

things don't go well for payment. No. I mean, if you consider getting beheaded and then fed to Cyrox not going well, then yeah, they don't go well. Some of the roughest spoilers yet for Steve on today's book reader section. Viseris says this is going to follow through on cutting out some of those tongues. Let it be known. Anyone whose tongue dares to question the birth of Princess Reneur's son should have it removed. So Veserisaris might follow through with something for once in his fucking life is the point.

Next week. But just a lot of, like, heavy on the gas for next week's episode, this week's episode. There's that shot in the teaser for next week of Vamond walking, surrounded by High Towers. Right. So the high towers are going to back Vamond in order to fuck fucking high towers. All right. I'm trying. All right.

The big thing, though, the one you want to talk about is C-Smoke. So what do you want to say about C-Smoke? So, you know, we alluded to this question of like, okay, does Seas Smoke just remain writerless forever if his writer is still alive? And part of the reason that we're wondering that one is just the lore. But Seas Smoke is claimed in this story by Adam of Hull, A, D, D, A.D, D.A.M. We were pleased to let Chris of the Q know. Chris texts, he's like, is there really someone named Adam of Whole with two? I loved it. I loved it. So competing accounts in the text for who, shockingly competing accounts

of the text for who Adam's father is. Adam's mother says it's Lenor. Some others might have, you believe it would be corless. But Adam claims seas smoke. And it's part of this larger sewing of the seeds that Jace undertakes because they need as many riders as possible. So this idea of the Targaryans the Targaryian bastards who have that Targaryian blood and might be able to claim a dragon becomes like a really valuable thing in the story. Seaspoke having been introduced as... My feeling on this is,

if Seaswoke will not be written, then just don't introduce Seaswoke into the story. It would just be strange. So I feel like Seaswoke has to come into play, but then how will they explain this or nightmare scenario? Will they not? That would be awful.

Okay, so there's a bunch of different theories about what might have. happen here, but one that we got a lot of emails about, and I just want to shout out listener Sam, who was the first to, like, message me on Sunday night about this theory, is Lainor actually going to be Adam of Hall? And this is like similar to the way in which they use Gendry in Game of Thrones, where they're just like, let's just swap them in for another character, right? Like, why spend our money on all these other characters? A couple issues with that sort of like swapping Laneor in Adam of Hall as a brother named Alan.

I like it on the one hand because it was always hard to buy that like A, Lainor, I mean, this has been a tough week for wife guys, but like, it was always hard for me to buy that Corleys was the father of this bastard since he's such a wife guy. And it didn't make sense for Lainor to be the father of Adam of Hull either because Lainor does not like the ladies. though he does have that line in an earlier episode to

Reney Rway says he's tried, right? But I don't know, I kind of like this idea and then like Adam of whole, this whole thing is like his loyalty, but it doesn't make a ton of sense because like Reneer is doubting him and like all sorts of stuff like where I'm like that, the whole like turn cloak thing

couple with because there's got a brother name Allen. Yeah, there's the initial age thing. He's supposed to be 15 when he claims C-Smoke, which doesn't work, obviously, but also they can change that. that they change ages all the time. But yeah, it's the eventual, like,

incorporation into the succession, like, future Lord of the Tides plot and then the turncloak aspect of the dance. But maybe Reneiro suspects, like, that he suspects him because she worries that he resents her or something like that. But also, who is not going to recognize

Laynor? He just looks like a lanar. And, like, allow, I guess everyone would, maybe it would be another situation where everyone's in cahoots. and he's like assuming a different persona, but then why come back? If he left this life, like, why come back

and then not be himself and claim him? I guess he could come back as Lainor in the story at some point, and we're done with Adam of Hull. That could happen. I don't know. This is a tricky one. Adam's a cool character

who dies with the word loyal written on his tomb. So like this idea that he sacrifices everything out of loyalty could be a cool thing for Lena or do. There's just going to be like several hoops

they'll have to jump through in order to make that work. I don't hate the theory. I just have questions about it and I hope he just stays away and lives forever, actually, instead. Be you. Stay out of the dance, my God.

Okay, Jo, we did it. We did it. Swift three hours. I had a great time. Me too, always. Oh, friends. You know, this is the point where we turn to Steve and we say,

what is this brief mortal pod, if not the pursuit of legacy? God's being good. Oh, God. That is a wrap on today's episode. Thank you, as always, to our dragon lords. The incomparable Steve Allman

for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgapal for his additional production work on this episode, and Jomea Denneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember to send us your emails at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com.

We will see you again on Friday for our Rings of Power episode seven deep dive. And then again on Sunday night, immediately after Hot D, episode eight for Talk to Thrones. The Midnight Boys, phew, phew, peepo. We'll be with you tomorrow for Andor episode five. Until then, remember, fire is a prison, but the pod offers an escape. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the fresh. items, then review your list and carefully choose each one.

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your summer at Columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on allolotion. You're welcome. Columbia, engineered for whatever.