The Ringer-Verse - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 7 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

It's the world's worst funeral on this week's 'House of the Dragon,' and Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson are here to give you all their instant reactions to this brand new episode! Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. and I am an editor at the ringer.com. Joining me, as always is Ringer, senior staff writer Joanna Robinson, and a woman who has never lost an eye over dragon omership, although the night is young. Yes. It's Mallory Rubin. What's up?

Chris, so many dragons to talk to you about. And they were all so distinct from one another. That was the thing. And the thing is, is if you're going to shoot dragons, I like shooting them at dusk, you know, because... I think day for night is the ideal time. It's just like, who needs distinction between, like, scales and colors or whatever? Let's just go with it.

I got it. We were talking about the seventh episode of the first season of House of the Dragon. The episode was called Driftmark, although I think one wedding and a funeral is a more appropriate title. It was directed by your boy, Miguel Sapachnik, and it featured a aforementioned wedding and a aforementioned funeral. A knife fight, some incest. Joanna, what will you remember from this episode? It has to be. the princess and the queen and only one knife between their faces.

That moment was incredible. And what was incredible about it is that I've seen it one million times in the trailers. And it was still extremely potent for me. So, you know, with apologies to Vagar and sex on the beach, it's the knife fight for sure. Don't worry, I got you covered on the Sex on the Beach front and the Vagar front. Because in addition to your pick, those were my favorite parts of the episode. This one was full in general of a lot. lot of shots and lines and moments that we had seen teased in the trailer. So it was really thrilling

to see that come fully to life. Mal, I had this vision of you like you're in SEAL Team 6 with night vision on watching that sex scene. Just like just like just so you could get all the like the contrast down. Did I go frame by frame? Did I sit in a completely dark room and watch this in the dead of night to ensure max optimal viewing conditions? Who's to say? Well, look, you're you're dedicated to reporting. You make sure you get the story. She's an artisan. This is an act of scholarship. Yeah.

Shall I recap this episode? Oh, Chris. Please. Please. Welcome to the worst funeral of all time. It's got drinking, serptitious looks, a new old hand of the king, some early bedtimes, and not

a ton of reverence for the moment. It's Lane is Memorial and Damon doesn't seem too sad. Agon gets lit. Lainor nearly pulls a dude from Dunkirk, the walking into the ocean part. And Reneer is awkwardly trying and failing at making small talk with everyone.

Vesaris tries to get Damon to come back to King's Landing, but Damon is really, really, really committed to this pentose bit, which maybe means no state taxes, I don't know. So Vesaris just goes to sleep. We learn Otto is back at his side, and Laris is the new lord of Harenhall, and Kristen is still a type A dickhead. There is a discussion between Reneas and Corl

about the merits of Pento's and Driftmark's medical services and whether or not Lena could have been saved if she had been home. There's some unresolved issues about whether Corlis is transferring his ambition to his wife. They have a disagreement about which children Lanas or Reneiras should inherit Driftmark. The long night gives away to some more intense chats

as we find Rennira and Damon reuniting after more than 10 years. I think this is like the decade since they've seen each other, right? Seems like it as far as we know. Yeah. Their little sandy walk might be my favorite. scene of the show so far. They kiss. They do it on the beach. Incest, Game of Thrones. Then some dragon stuff happens that I will need to explain to me. Back at the Drift Mark Hotel, there is a dust up

between Reneira and Allison's kids over who father Reneer's kids. Amen talks a lot of shit and brags about leasing a dragon, then loses an eye. Everyone is in a tizzy. Most of all, Allison, who demands some Homerabi justice. She grabs a knife and goes after Reneer cutting her arm, but exposing herself. Vesiris rules that the night has gone on long enough and everyone goes back to their chambers to get sewn up and stewing their own emotions. Despite Lainor's recommitment to his familial duties, Reneer decides that she is best matched to her uncle, Damon,

and she quickly talks him into, quote-unquote, murdering her husband. Not that that's a direct quote. I'm just putting air quotes around that, which he subcontracts to said husband's lover who stages a rather implausible sword fight. A body believed to be Lainors is found in the fireplace, understandably upsetting Reneas and Corliss.

Reneira gets married to Damon, but wait, who is that with the fresh haircut taking a kayak for two out of Driftmark? It's Lainor and Carl, those crazy kids will wonders never cease. What an episode. What's going on. And Joe, I wanted to start here. Yeah. Let's start with this knife fight between Allison and Reneer,

10 years in the making, if not more. Here's my read on this, and you tell me where I'm at where I'm out with this. Yeah. I think that Allison sees her life as like this profound sacrifice for the sake of the realm, which is ironic, I guess, because in some ways, Reneira knows that her life is also a sacrifice for the sake of the realm, but for different reasons because of the secret the Vassaris has given her. But Allison is kind of like, I have given away my individuality to the extent that she understood it at the time to become a queen and a mother and a wife.

And this was because her father put her in the position to do that in somewhat, you know, creepy ways, and that Vesaris selected her in somewhat creepy ways, and that Westeros needed a queen after Emma died. And in Allison's view, Reneira has basically led a life of following her fancy from Damon to Kristen to Lainor to Harwin to Damon again, and her children are illegitimate and pose like a mortal threat to her own children. So in that sense, I can kind of get,

where the switchblade came out. Yeah. No, I think that's a perfect read, I think, and her speech that she gives there, because we had heard that line, Where's Duty, Where a Sacrifice, so many times in the trailer. But what she says before that,

what have I done, but what was expected of me forever, upholding the kingdom, the family, the law, while you flout all and do what you please. I think that's what she said. I didn't have closed captionings. Where's Sacrifice? Where's Duty?

It's trampled under your pretty feet again. And I think we're going to talk about that knife in a second, but I think her saying, where is duty? And Reneer can see her duty out of the corner of her eye in the shape of that knife, like reflected in the fireplace. There's just this wide gulf of a secret between these women. Allison cannot know what has been weighing on Reneer. We hear her unburdened herself to Damon a bit when she talks about ever since she was made the air, the pressure that she's felt, all of that. But Allison doesn't see that. Allison can't know the full breath of it.

Damon doesn't even know the full breath of it. As far as we know, he doesn't know about the prophecy. And so I was rewatching interviews that Emma Darcy and Olivia Cook gave before the series started. And something they kept talking about was that these two women who loved each other desperately wanted to reconnect, but neither of them would be the first one to ever rebuild that bridge. And so I was trying to read that. even though I kind of felt like Ranira did last week, but I was trying to read that out of that knife confrontation

of like these women desperately want to connect, but there's so much in the way and there's so much space between them at this point that it feels almost possible. And there's all the men in the room also, who, as you pointed out, Chris, have been responsible for driving this wedge between them. So this, Mal, I remember when we used to do Talk the Thrones

about the original series, and sometimes I would butt my head up against occasionally what was on screen versus what was obviously in a text of some kind. And I think if I had an issue over the last couple of episodes, even though I've enjoyed myself and especially enjoyed Emma Darcy and Olivia Cook, it's like there's this 10-year time gap that we didn't get to see any of. And that Allison's anger at Reneira is like, I think I intellectually understand it, but emotionally don't get it from watching the show sometimes.

right? Like I think, and then this episode was the one where I was like, oh yeah, people have been telling her for probably a decade that one day Renier is going to kill her and her children to solidify her. Her dad definitely has been telling her that. Yeah. So that, that. And she's now like, yeah. Yes. And she's now like, I mean, I mean, she's paranoid. She might be right. She might be paranoid. But like, what did you make of that fight? And what did you make of their conflict in general in this episode? Ooh, such a incredibly rich and amazingly interesting scene. Every facial expression from every person in the room tells us something. I think that what Joe said is exactly right and crucial. You know, Allison might as well be a member of House Tully here, spousing family duty honor as these sacred principles.

And I think that the, while you flout it all to do as you please line, is maybe as central and crucial of a thing as we've heard from Allison across any of the seven episodes because there is this, and Renera throws this idea of this cloak of righteousness back in Allison's face, which I think was equally important, right?

Now they see you. Now they see you as you are. This is a moment of disillusion. Like, this is it. Even at the beginning of this hour of TV, when Reneer and Damon are discussing what happened with the Strongs, Reneer is saying, I do not believe Alicent is capable of murder.

Later that day, Alicin demands a child's eye. As retribution, it was impossible not to think back to one of our earliest, most intense Game of Thrones experiences, the showdown at the end of the Crossroads with CERC and King Robert, and Ned and Joffrey and Aria and Sanza and Nimeria and lady, when Circe said, and what of the dire wolf? What of the beasts that savaged your son? And then later we have another wolf,

like this thirst for justice and vengeance at all costs. But the thing that we needed from Allison here was that humanity, that vulnerability. So when she says this thing to Renira about how Renera gets to do whatever she want, and Allison is on the one hand espousing duty as this sacred, precious thing, It is at the heart of her crusade and her quest, maintaining it, nurturing it, bringing other people inside of her version of it. But it is also something that she deeply resents that she has had to live her life inside of it. And so if you look at the conversation later, after the knife fight, between Allison and Otto, there's this incredibly strange mix of emotions and competing instincts where on the one hand, he's almost looking at her for the first time as a true partner. Yeah.

But he's also – a player. Right, a player in the game. But he's also still using her as a pawn. Now go to him. And she has been caught inside of this. And this, again, is why we needed those first five episodes to understand what Alison means when she's saying sacrifice. Because otherwise, all there is is villainy. You have to have that heart.

I think, Chris, like, when you're saying, like, you're missing, maybe feeling like you're missing an evolution of a character over those 10 years, I can sympathize with that. I do think every time we saw Allison bouncing an enormous child on her hip, like you just saw the tension being stretched in her. until it snapped, you know, where it's just sort of like, she just felt like buried under her literal husband that scene that we all recoiled from, you know, like it's just been piling on top of her, on top of her, on top of her,

until this break here. Yeah, I think that this is in some ways, like, this show asks different things of the viewers than Game of Thrones did. Like, I find myself in my head trying to, like, kind of orient myself, towards like, who am I rooting for in this, in this, in this, like, argument between Allison and Reneira, and I,

I don't, I guess I like Reneer more just because, like, she has more fun shit happening. And Allison's more like, I'm stuck in here with Laris, Kristen, and my dad. Like, it's like, I enjoy Reneer's sort of storyline more. But to me, Reneira was like, you married my dad. That was pretty weird. I'm going to take a chill from our friendship for a while. then Allison has this idea that Reneira, who's been, you know,

they both had things happen to them that they didn't quite expect. Reneer didn't expect to be named the heir to the throne, and Allison didn't expect to be selected to be Viseras's new wife. And then I guess I keep saying to myself, like, what did Reneer do to her that's so bad? You know, like aside from living her life and doing the best she can under the circumstances with a husband who doesn't want to, like, go to bed with her,

and her heart with other people. But I don't know. It's just there's a little bit of like, I'm trying to like find my way here. I think the aspect of like jealousy and resentment is in the mix. Just sort of like exactly what Mal was saying while you fly out all and do what you please,

trampled under your pretty feet. Like you just get to do whatever you want. And it is burning me up inside that I have to fuck your decaying dad constantly instead. You know? And so I think, and I say that, I say jealousy with a lot of empathy for Allison. Because like, you know, I think we've all experienced that where you're just like, you feel such resentment towards someone and you, you almost know it's irrational.

But you're like, but I can't, I can't not feel this. Yeah. And I think there's also this element with Alicent in this, in this episode of particular of like, well, what was that for then? Right. Why did I do everything that was expected of me? Why did I have to prioritize duty and my family and this quest above all if it was going to cost. me if it was going to cost me things I hold secret and not gain me what it was supposed to. Her children are not, Egon is not currently the air. One, we hear her express to. I wish you

was though. I know. I love that guy. Love it. Showing for me. I got we can do the whole pot on that. We hear her express, if we go back a week to that really great small council sequence again, remember that? Of course, when Lionel said, yeah, I'll look into what we're here is asking me to look into. And there's a moment where Allison voices in this episode, like, the Saris will always choose her, will always side with her. So if you're not even gaining that loyalty, and then that gets back to what Alicent voiced in another moment of real vulnerability and humanity to Laris at the end of last episode that's set into course numerous horrific events that are then bearing out across this episode. Like, is there no one

who will choose me? Now, of course, that is not an accurate reflection of her circumstances, as we talked about last week, there is an element of irrationality at play there, but there is also this through line of loneliness and feeling this real need to foster meaningful relationships that are eluding her, are eluding everybody. That's top of mind for everyone across this episode. And so what do you, what do you on earth in your pursuit of that? And like, we got the payoff right away when, in this episode, for what Allison had said last week to Laris about Otto. Like, he'd be part of it. He'd be part of it. He'd be part of it. And, he'd be part of, to me, right? And even Otto has a moment during the dagger scene. He's like, put the knife down.

Put it down. But then he goes to her later. And where is he in that whole scene, standing next to the driftwood throne, position right in arm's reach of a symbol of power, as always, while Vassaris is on his cane in front of it, limping around yelling at people who won't listen to him. But Otto has eyes only for Damon in that scene, which I thought was hilarious. I was going to, I mean, I thought that that scene was staged really expertly because it was almost a piece of theater where these two women have been driven to these almost histrionic extremes, right? Like, they've been pushed to this, like, point of violence. And all these men are kind of smirking, standing around looking at them and be like, well, I'm enjoying the show. Nothing really is going to happen here at any given

moment we're going to step in and stop it or like, we're going to let this play out to whatever extent we want. And even the choreography of Kristen start, like first of all, Kristen definitely egging it on a little bit. And Kristen stepping in and then Damon stepping in. And then, you know, everybody kind of like cutting each other off at various points and who's

interested in what. And then, of course, how we end it with Renera and Damon with Corliss and Reneas on one side. And then the High Tower kind of Kristen Viseras side. I just thought it was like, you know, Miguel, Sapajnik is obviously known for these huge set pieces, and we think of Battle of the Bastards, but this was a different kind of piece of staging. I also love the way the boys were staged.

Like, the, like, Reneira's boys kept, like, sort of, like, peeking out from behind her skirts, essentially, whereas, like, Amon's facing the other direction in a chair, like, sometimes looking over his shoulder, but often just making facial expressions that no one could see. Right. I love that we found out what Sir Kristen Cole's limit was, which was taking an eye out of a child.

So it's nice to know he has. has limits. When even Kristen's not in on your plan on Allison, he has gone too far. But I did love the moment when Damon just stepped in and easily held him back. Allison was like Michael Madsen and Reservoir Dogs. And they're like, oh, this is. Oh, God.

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may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. Amon has come up. Amon goes through somewhat of a transformation in this episode, both facially, but in terms of pet ownership. Now, right, this great sex scene between uncles. uncle and niece is happening on the beach. We all feel great about our choices

that we're watching this on Sunday night. I do. I thought for a second, I was like, oh, Amon's going to spot them, and this is going to be controversial. It turns out that's not controversial. It's a tender love scene. You just got to put some face makeup on,

and it gets consecrated. But the big deal is that Amon finds a dragon, which he's had some issues with in the past of figuring out which dragon is his or whether or not he's got the special sauce. And he essentially takes Vagar, who was what bequeathed to Laina's daughter? Not officially.

No. I mean, yes, he takes Vagar, but the second part about bequeathed to Rana is not accurate. Raina would have to claim Vagar, which is what in response. Explain the significance of this to me as if, I want to say, I think I'm better than a third grader,

but like if I was like a high school kid who really liked sports and didn't really read that much. I mean, Dragon Routing's a sport, so I got you. Come on in. Come on in to this ring of fire. There's a lot here.

There's a lot here. In terms of the significance, I think we can actually start at the end and then kind of zip back. Otto, to his credit, sums it up as well as anyone. When he says to Allison, On the heels, remember of Allison saying last week to Amand,

your obsession with those beasts goes beyond understanding. And we were like, boy, there's a missing level of awareness here of how significant these dragons are for House Targary. Otto says here, what that rogue Amand has done in winning Vagar to our side, the boy was right. It's worth a thousand times the price he paid. We cannot overstate the magnitude of this, sincerely. Now there's a side.

Now we're talking sides. Like Viserius is like, we're a family, we're a family. We're not a family. We have sides. Yeah, and Otto's like, we've never been. It's always been two sides. And, you know, elsewhere in the episode, we hear Runeira say to Damon, the Greens to speak the team name of the opponent

aloud in Valerian in that moment. So yes, the sides are crystallizing before our eyes in this episode. In terms of that idea, though, of how crucial it is, not only to have dragons, to have that power for your side. Vagar in particular, we talked about this a bit last week.

Vagar is the oldest dragon currently alive in the story, the biggest dragon. I loved the way that Amon's claiming of Vagar was filmed and framed. Looks like the camera's on top of a skyscraper, looking down at him. When he climbs the ropes, he may as well be scaling a building,

like the heft and magnitude of this magical, creature was so apparent. It was just incredible. And, you know, we're coming off the heels of last episode where the fact that Eamond doesn't have a dragon, you're the only one of us without a dragon. Aagon, his brother says, is this source of loneliness and isolation. So we feel like the heft and the stakes of this pursuit. There are a lot of similarities with the way this plays out in fire and blood here, but also a lot of differences. Something that Joe mentioned in our book reader portion of House of our last week anticipating this looking ahead was how, because we had seen in the teaser, that Lena and Damon's kids, Bela and Raina are the ones who see this. And then having

that personal connection to this was the girls there because they aren't there in the book. It's just the boys fighting. So to bring Lena's daughters into it and to have Raina say like, I wanted, I was going to claim the dragon. Like it's my mom's dragon. And for Amon to just not give a single shit at the funeral. For her mom is a whole extra level of national. Just very messy and intense all around. I was thinking a lot during this flight, you know, we hear Amand issue commands in Valerian

and put that training that we've gotten a glimpse of to use in real time, the initial trepidation, the rebuke from Vagar, but then his insistence, his conviction to try no matter what. And there's this great line in fire, blood. Later, he would say that he was so afraid of being caught that he forgot to be frightened of

being burned to death and eaten. Call it boldness. Call it madness. Call it fortune or the will of the gods or the caprice of dragons. Who can know the mind of such a beast? And when we see the shaking initially and he can barely hold on and then that pure vertical ascent and descent, like it's a test. Can he hold on? Is he worthy of claiming Fagaris's mount? I feel. I feel. I found myself thinking back to season 8 of Game of Thrones and getting to see John Ride Regal and how it was thrilling but it felt like it was

missing a degree of magnitude like that everybody who was bearing witness to that should have understood the unparalleled significance of that moment and we got that here. Like I had been so looking forward to seeing this play out on screen and you felt the heft

of it, the consequence of it and you also felt the magic of it and I know I've been talking about this a lot over the last few weeks, but this is like, I think this is important. This is a fantasy story. And I love the politicking and the palace intrigue as much as anyone, genuinely. We can't lose sight of the magic at the heart of the story. And I loved seeing that captured here. Let me ask Chris, Chris, you were talking about sides. What are the sides as you see it right now? Pretty much how they broke down after that knife fight, you know, on those two sides of the room.

I would say that it's like Allison Otto Kristen, Allison's children who are now in Air Force. And then on the other side, I would say definitely Damon and Reneira. And I wonder whether Corliss and Reneas are kind of like in, kind of in between, right? Like Corliss has obviously made entreaties to Damon in the past, but has also been loyal to Vassaris in the past.

I've obviously, Reneas is like, I, like the entire pursuit of this, power is what has destroyed my family and killed my children. So if you think that, like, this is fun for me, you're wrong. I definitely felt like that that was sort of what was going on. You know, Joe, I wanted to ask you, I thought now very articulately and wonderfully explained the dragon part about it. This was a very cool episode as like far as that performance by the kid was playing Aymond. I'm sorry, I don't have it in front of me, but like him staring into the

fire pit briefly and like almost showing empathy for the other kids around. So close. And then the transformation that he goes through with, like, shot to that makeup department because immediately, but immediately you're like, he's like lost all innocence. And he is like, this was a fair trade. Yes. He's called Aeman One Eye in the book from now on. Yeah, I thought that kid was incredible. I think all the kids are really good. But I think the Ty Tenon and Leo Acton are just above and beyond.

And when you think about all those moments, those, like, okay, first of all, this wake for Lena looks like every pre-wedding cocktail hour I've ever been to in my life. Like it's always on a-hanging in a courtyard. Always on a terrace. There's weird little groups of people who don't know each other. One guy standing in the ocean for some reason. Yeah, you know. He's already hammered. The party's already started down there.

And it's just sort of like, it's awkward. He's just tanked, you know? Is he going to make it through the ceremony? I hate the cocktail hour. I think that's the most awkward part of a wedding. But anyway, the tension between so many of these people, because I think you draw the line pretty correctly, but one dynamic that I thought was super interesting in this episode,

was between Renice and Renera, where Renice is just icing Renera and icing Jace out. You know, she goes over and she comforts the girl. girls and she is like nothing for Jason that moment. And we've been wondering like how would Corleys react to these boys? And Corleys is like, oh, I see no problem. There's still going to be like a grandson who's technically mine on the throne. No problem then.

Luke you're going to inherit Driftmark, no problem. You know, and Mallory, I hope you really enjoyed Luke's. Luke's, I don't want it. I hope that was just for you. Just channeling John Snow in full. I don't want it. I was waiting for Luke to say he looked into the Night King's eyes. But that I see between Radies and Reneyra is so interesting,

and I think it complicates that clear line that you were talking about, Chris. And I think that's really smart. But if you do Dragon Math on both sides of those lines, it did really matter that Vagar got added to Allison's side of the room. Because before that they just had like Sunfire, which is Aegon's dragon. And Helena, I don't know if she's a dragon writer. I can't really tell. We can confirm this now.

So I checked, because there are three dragons flying over the ship when Vagar joins at the end. And I'm like, it can only be Dreamfire also. It looks blue, but like, who else could it even be? And then I checked on the HBO Dragon Guide, you click into Dreamfire. It just says it right there. Okay, great. I'm like, okay, it'll be great if they said it on the show. Okay, but Helena has a dragon, but does she seem really like she's interested in Dragon?

No, she cares about. She cares about her bugs. She cares about her bugs. So, like, Allison's side was really lacking, whereas, like, Syrax and Karax and all those others are on the other side of the room. So getting Vagar is just, like, going somewhere towards tipping the dragon scales for them. Remind me who between Agon and Aman was like, which one of them was like, maybe I'll marry my sister and keep the bloodline pure? Was that Agon? It's Agon.

Well, Agan was, like, chafing against it. He's like, I guess this happened off screen that Agan and Helena are betrothed. And Agan's like, oh, she. She's a weird bug girl. I do not want to marry her. I want to fuck like any other serving girl. But we both like really long legs. And she's looking at a spider and he's like leering.

Incredible delivery. And then shouting wench. But I love it. I loved Amon's reaction where Amon's like, what Amon says is what Renier then does with Damon, where he was like, it will shore up our claim. Keep the bloodline strong. You know, and Agon like does his, you know, and Amon's just like, Agon. You know, so the fact that he's like, my brother sucks, my sister's weird, maybe I'll go bond with my nephews.

Nope, that's not working out for me either. So, um, dragon friend it is, you know, is sort of his journey through this episode, I think. It was fascinating to see Amon's response to Agon there because, like, I think, Joe, one of the things we've had a lot of fun tracking is who seems to take being a Targaryen seriously? Who seems to take that tied old Valeria seriously? That is obviously very central to everything we'll talk about with Damon and Renew. in a few minutes, but you really felt that from Amund across this episode. The other thing I just quickly wanted to say about Helena, because this was something we couldn't say last week, but now we can because we've seen what happened with Amid. We've seen him lose the eye. It seems that they are establishing Helena on the show as a dreamer, as a child who is just

spouting prophecy casually in the courtyard while playing with spiders. Last week, when Allison said to Amon, you will have a dragon one day. I know it. Helena said he'll have to close an eye. Now, this was something we talked about in our book readers section. Yeah, the book readers are like losing their shit. She must be a dreamer. And then she has this thing here.

And again, we don't have subtitles on the screener. So I don't know if I got this exactly right. But I think she's saying hand turns looms, spool of greens, spool of black, dragons of flesh, weaving dragons of threat. So that's interesting. And more broadly, given Viseras's obsession with dragon dreams, I'm really hoping we get to see them interact. and talk about this and what he thinks of having a child who is a dreamer. I really hope that becomes part of the story. Can I ask?

I want to do a quick thing about the Vesaris being obsessed with dragon dreams, but also knowing about this, basically this prophecy about the future of this world and why Reneer needs to know this and what Reneer needs to do, the significance of Allison using that dagger, because I assume that's the same dagger, right? Oh, yeah. I guess I'm curious whether or not there is an implication that Rineer, is almost trolling Allison because she's like,

now they see you who you really are. To some extent, Allison is trying to shore up her family, but Reneira, is Reneer starting to act knowing what the possible future of the realm is

and knowing that the long winter could come and knowing that if it does, she's supposed to be the person who defends the world against this evil? Or is it still like pretty, we're still talking about like family politics and like, like family security.

Does that make sense what I'm asking? Well, I think you can't look at Vassaris, who is like essentially dropping body parts by the minute and like confusing his alive wife for his dead wife and stuff like that and not feel as Reneera that like my time's almost here. Like it's coming soon that this is all going to be on me. And like as each Targaryan monarch goes through learning about this dream, this prophecy, you know, they'll, an heir will learn about it and say, well, maybe it's my dad.

Oh, no, shit, it's me. Like, that's got to be the sort of journey that you go through learning about this prophecy. And so Reneira, it has to be hanging on Reneer. And so what I think is really wild, the moment where she's talking to Damon and the show, as Mallory said, like, is trying to fool us for five minutes into thinking that Reneira could kill Lainor, who seems very nice. I had this moment where I was like, because it's unclear who's behind Lainor's death in the book. And I had this moment where I was like, oh, God, they're going for.

Like, Reneura is going ham. Like, yeah, she's going hard. And now it's going to be Allison who's tough and Reneira who's tough. And that's going to be like the conflict here. And then they pulled all the way back from that. We're not even Damon, Damon who kills like a, you know, a Butler, a Valerian Butler. Like, not even Damon is the full villain behind Lainor's death, which is a tough moment in the book.

And they decided to make this big change for the show where Lainor gets to live for now. And that, you know, that actor doesn't have to put a wig on his head anymore. That must be nice. And, like, that's a real interesting move because it means we are dealing with right now the more heroic Reneira team and the more villainous. Allison team. And I don't know if the show felt like they needed to give us people who are easier to root for than the book does? Or I don't know.

What do you think about that? Yeah. I mean, Mal, you tell me, I have to admit, the first time I watched it through, I was like, oh, wow, Lainor, like, Rinear killed her husband. Like, I kind of read it more like that. And then obviously, I thought that Lainor escaped with Carl, like that he couldn't go through with it. and that Carl was like, like, they tried to pay me off to murder you. Let's abscond to the stepstones.

Right? I, yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely read it as everyone is in cahoots. And because we get, we get that, we get that earlier. There are so many, so many scenes of this episode that I think will be very rewarding

for rewatching, not only after completing the episode, but further down the road. You know, So with Lainor, like the twist, seeing him alive is so shocking for numerous reasons. And I have a couple questions about it, what it means that he's paired with a dragon, sea smoke. I'm really curious to know what it means for the relationship between Corliss and Renice and Renera. Because part of what Reneera and Damon are actively cultivating as we hear is this idea that the realm will whisper that I was somehow responsible is something Reneas.

says, and Damon replies, yet we must burn. We will know the truth of it. And Reneira says they will fear what else we might be capable of. In general, I understand the strategy. What about this house that you definitely need on your side? If they think this about you, that's a problem. Now you have the grandchildren who are in the mix as a tie still and that's something. But I'm glad, Joe, that you cited that real coldness at the cheeseboard between Rainies and Rennira,

because it does feel really central. And like you hear Corliss and Renice arguing about legacy and this idea of legacy throughout this episode and when ambition is masquerading as something more pure. And I, you know, that Luke Corliss scene we mentioned earlier, like I thought that was devastating. Because Luke says like if this happens,

it means if I'm the Lord of TripTong means everyone's dead. And it really, there were a few moments like that in this episode, but that one in particular really crystallizes, like what we talked about last week, that these adults, sometimes they're seeking something that is like born on the wings, not only have a dragon,

but good intention, but still, like they are turning these children into their pawns and all of this hate is festering. And so with Renira and Lainor, like, I had, I think a similar bit of oscillation watching that because there was a part of me that was like,

when before you realized the twist and realized he still, alive, that was like, wow, this is a tough one. Like, killing Lainor, who we all really like, would be a really, really difficult thing to accept that Reneiro would be capable of doing. But I think what Joe said is really important. Like, the story in so many ways is propped up on this idea of moral gray all around. Now, cold murder is not moral gray.

That's just bad, to be clear. but if it's more of a heroes versus villains divide, at least at this point, then that is a distinct thing from, I think, like, the way the dance plays out in the text. I'm being really curious to see if that changes at some point or, like, how long that is maintained. I mean, we do have to remember that Damon, like, killed his wife in the veil. Yeah, it's like, people do bad things. And he says everyone's capable of depravity. Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's this quote from the, because I'm thinking a lot about Coralus and Rainius and, like, if they are ever going to find out if Laneer is still alive or what's going to go on. But basically, like, their daughter dies.

Because they didn't go to the wedding, you know. Presumably that happened on their shores and they were like, you know what, we're just... I think that's Dragonstone. Because of all... It's Dragon's Stone in the book, but also all the smoke, I think, is coming from the dragon on the volcano. Okay, I thought that might have been like a marine layer, you know? But the section of the book says, for this was to be a year when many of the long, simmering tensions and jealousies that had plagued the seven kingdoms finally came to a boil,

a year when many and more would have reasons to wail and grieve and rend their garments, though none more than the sea snake, Lord Corley-Solarian, and his noble wife, Prince Reinez, Princess Rainis, she who might have been queen. So, like, this isn't, like, they lost two of their children, rapid succession. How is this going to play out for them? And there's a division in their marriage currently where Rainis is like, I'm not down with these white kids who are not my grandchildren as far as I'm concerned. Give give the, give drift mark to our granddaughter.

Like, do that. And Corley's like, oh. Big moment there for Mr. Feminist. Yeah. Well, I think that what's his distinction that he's just like, history doesn't remain, remember bloodlines or remember names or what does he say that's like. Yeah, history just remember blood, he remembers names.

And he says, what is this brief mortal life if not the pursuit of legacy? obviously an incredible whiff of the Taiwan-Lannister legacy energy there. That was a great conversation between Corliss and Renice because they are both. Renice, there's something about what she's saying. Let's pass Driftmark through Lena's line. That's lovely, right? You're telling me that I was robbed of the crown and it's wrong. Here's a chance to do this inside of your own household.

Let's pass it down through our daughter to her daughter. But there's all of this mixed tension because what is Reneas doing and Corliss does say you'd have me cast an even darker shadow over those boys and their ideas. It's unambiguous what the takeaway from that would be. Not only what that would mean for Luke, you know, basically being disinherited from the line of the Lord of the Tides, but what the impact would be on Jace there because that shadow would extend. And so it's a, what she's suggesting is a threat to Corliss's core ambition of that proximity to the Iron Throne. And I think like to get back to what you asked 10 minutes ago,

Chris, that I never answered. Lainor and whether we think they're in cahoots, like, I think that I think that that conversation where Lainor comes back sees what has happened. Hysterical moment where he like is like, oh God, is everything okay? And they cut to Luke and Jace. No one has given Luke a cloth for his bleeding head. I know. Jason cloth for his bleeding head. And Luke has just like two socks stuffed up his brain nose. Their faces were, that was priceless.

And Reneira is being stitched up from the wound, from the dagger. That dagger, the fire, the blood, fire, blood, very present throughout this episode at symbols. But one of the things that Lainor says to Reneyra, he's saying, I'll be a better husband, I'll be a better father. I'll do all these things that I maybe haven't done a good enough job. of doing. And she's like, if you want to know what you can do, it's this, right? That's my assumption is that that's the part of the conversation that takes place next. But I think also, like, he said, we made an arrangement all those years ago to do our duty and yet explore happiness, but there are

times when I think these things cannot mutually exist. And so they're basically flipping that for him. Go follow that happiness then instead of the duty. Now, to be clear, there are a lot of tradeoffs here. He has to leave his family, his life, his name, his dragon. He's doing all the that anyway. He just wants to go fight in the stepstones with Carl. Like he gets some kind of like approximation of his dream anyway. We've seen how unhappy he is.

And like he even says, I hate the gods from making me as they did, which is so heart-wrenching. And devastating to hear in this episode. So like he makes a choice, if he makes a choice, if that is in fact how it played out, that Reneer didn't, right? To go across the narrow sea

and live a completely different kind of life. And again, it's not without complication or sacrifice to be clear. But I thought that contrast of how Reneer responded to Kristen's very self-interested and personally motivated proposal and to everything that plays out here was notable as well. I also think that like to my earlier query about whether or not Joffrey sexuality motivated Kristen beating his face off, Kristen's like sneering laughter when Allison like makes some comment about Lenore's sexuality. I think that just like really underlying. finds that for me. I hate that guy. But the one criticism, a strong criticism I saw levied at

Reneer after last week was how could she be so reckless to have only kids with Harwin? Why didn't she try to have kids with Laynor? So we get two scenes in this Epsis where she says that to Damon and then she and Laynor talk about that as well. So like was what she did with Harwin reckless to a certain degree, yes, but it wasn't that she didn't try to also have Valerian looking children. Yeah, they tried to install that offense. They just, the quarterback couldn't get it.

I wanted to say, because I guess it's kind of weird, like when you're talking about a Game of Thrones show, but especially with this one, you get to the point where you're really breaking down the morality of like, did they stage? And we kind of just skipped over the part

where the niece marries the uncle, which is like, you know. Let's talk about it now. I, I, I'm for it. characters and in terms of like what's happening or just like I buy it and I guess in the world of this show it works or whatever

it really jumped out at me was the links to which Reneira has to go to be with the person she loves I guess versus the way the men in this show can just do whatever the fuck they want. You know like I know

that Reneer has to essentially put together an immersive theatrical experience to get divorced or whatever from Lainor. Damon could just kill his wife. Like he's like, you know, people keep nagging me about her. I'm just going to go show up one day and start a little of her horse

and then finish the job. And, you know, even I remember earlier in the season, I think it was Otto and Vassaris or Damon and Vassaris who were basically like, when we were their age, we used to just like screw everything inside. And it says that to Vassaris. Yeah. And it's just like, well, it's different for when.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And meanwhile, like, so all of these people who are standing watching Renera and Alice in fight are basically depraved. But Renira's husband being unable to father her children is shattering the kingdom. And I do think that they've done a good job at, like, at juxtaposing, like, the sort of way in which the men operate with out in punity. And the women have to, like, operate under the cover of darkness all the time. quite literally when they consummate their relationship. Yes.

I think that's true. I guess, I mean, Lainer also had to participate in this immersive theatrical experience for a view with the person that he loves. And I think I should just say really quickly because I think that's a really good point. And I think I should just say really quickly because I didn't earlier,

that the way Lainor's death plays out in the book, the most believable version is that Damon pays Carl to kill Lainor. Joe, can you please tell? Chris how Carl is spelled. I just want you to blow his mind here. I want Chris to guess. Tell him. C-A-R-L.

That's what I'm going with. It's you. It's Q. Q-A-R-L. Okay. Okay. I just saw like some light drain out of Chris's eyes. It's C-A-R-L.

If I was making a name tag for that guy, I'd be like, here you go. You're Carl. That's his new name. Now that he's started a new life for himself, he's known a car with a Q. He's Carl with a scene now. But the Damon pays Carl to kill Leinor, and then the Damon kills Carl to cover his tracks.

And that's how that all plays out. And so, yeah, this is a major departure and a major, I guess, whitewashing of Damon's character, a character that we've had a lot of questions about, like, why we're seeing so many of his deeds off screen? Like, why are they hiding so many of his bigger moments off screen? and I don't know if it's to keep the audience rooting for him or if they're just really enjoying this mystique that Matt Smith is bringing to the role.

But I really felt that connection. I think based on like set photos and stuff like that, again, this is not in a spoiler way, but just the first set photos we ever saw was that scene with Emma Darcy and Matt Smith on the beach shooting that scene. And so I actually think, based on interviews, I read that this was their first week of filming

was this. Interesting. The exteriors, at least, for this. And so I thought it was really powerful. The Matt Smith, Emma Darcy connection is extremely potent. Amazing. When Renera leans in and says, I want you, like, it's one of the most electric crackles of chemistry that we've gotten on the show so far.

And I thought, too, like, the contrast of, on the one hand, it's like, demon, you're at your wife's funeral and you're both at your in. law's house. Let's pump the brakes for a second. Anyone could see you. You're just standing out on the beach. But I thought the contrast to the brothel, bowels of the brothel, oh, no, finally getting the payoff on the coupling thing, the contrast to how public and showy that was versus how really like intimate and tender this scene was. Well, yeah, I mean, even look at their wedding itself was like almost primordial. Like the painting of the face. this very small ceremony. Valerian rights, the bloodbinding.

And compare that to the way her wedding was being celebrated to Lenore and how gaudy and drunken and just sort of off the fat of the land that was. This seems like much more elemental and powerful. I always find it difficult to ask you to about what might happen, but I do kind of want to tease this out a little bit. Am I right? to think that based on the limited guest list for Reneira and Damon's wedding, that this will not be well received.

I mean, Vassaris has certainly never wanted this ever. He's fought against this from the jump. A couple memorable conversations about why Vassaris didn't want this to happen. So, I think the private nature of the ceremony, but also the specific valerian-laden nature of the ceremony

is important, clearly. You know, I think like, there's very little about these valerian rituals in the text, but there is one line from fire and blood. The wedding was, this was about other characters earlier in the timeline. The wedding was performed on Dragonstone under the Aegis of the Dowager Queen Vesnia.

As the castle septin refused to officiate, Magor and his new bride were joined in a Valerian right, quote, wed by blood and fire, end quote. Again, this blood and fire, you know, we hear Rainier speak to Damon about this idea, the Valerians are of the sea, but you and I are made of fire. We have always been meant to burn together.

And I think there are a lot of things at the heart of their marriage here and this union, this coupling at last, there's this shared tragedy. They both talk about how they're in mourning, right? There's sincere love and passion and an attraction and draw to each other that's been there since the beginning.

But what else has been there since the beginning? That understanding of an interest in that Targaryian purity, they always speak Valerian to each other. He gave her the Valerian steel necklace. in the first episode and said, now you and I both own a small piece of our ancestry. They both ride dragons. Like, they both have cited Agon the Conqueror many times, including here.

When they're talking about political strength and cementing and Rainer saying it'll be harder for people to challenge my claim if we're wed, like, she's not just thinking about the political reality of the day in the realm right now and how other people might respond to it. Though, of course, that's part of it. Again, she mentions the Greens here. They are both thinking about what it means. to be the house of the dragon in a way that not as many other characters around them are. And so I think that can be something we look at too when we track who is aligned.

And certainly Viseris has always shied away from the dragon rider elemental aspect of being a Targaryen. But last week we saw Damon hold up in a library in Pentos just like reading old dragon text. And I feel like he read about this marriage right in a book in Pantos was like, babe, you know, it'll be really cool. If we cut our lips open with dragon glass. Daman has big civil war reenactor vibes. Yeah, exactly. I had one more question about whether or not I was reading too,

can I say reading too much into it? Because then you're like, well, I found that the scene of their return from Driftmark between Vassaris and Allison to be noteworthy because he is, I mean, Vegas is no longer taking bets on Vassaris. He continues... Off the board?

He continues to just defy expectations. He is essentially going to be a rolling torso at some point. But he's obviously travel just completely incapacitates him. And, you know, Otto had said, go to him. I thought it was interesting that she was like kind of like pumping him full of wine. And almost trying to keep him in cotton. You know, like, let's just kind of like keep you drunk. happy, immobilized, whatever.

Are we starting, like, Vissaris obviously held literally no sway over a single person in that room when he was demanding everybody do what he says and everybody was just doing whatever they wanted. Are we seeing Allison sort of start to manipulate or incapacitate Vesaris a little bit? I think she has been, right? She's like running, making decisions in the small council.

There was that really, interesting moment in the confrontation with everyone in the room. Wayne Viseris demands Aymann tell him who told, who was talking about Renier's children like they were bastards and he looks at his mom and it's so clear that it was Allison. It was awesome. And he's like, he goes like, me? He's incredible. He's like, I talk a lot of shit, but I don't know if I said that.

Also, also, speaking of Taiwan energy, Otto like kicking Agon awake and dragging him to bed, It was classic Tywin-Joffrey stuff. I loved it. But I'm going to miss Ty-Tennan a lot when he goes. But I think it's just more, just more and more of what we've seen already from Allison in terms of her maneuvering. And we saw it weeks ago when Emily Carey was playing Allison. Was Allison coming to see Vassaris and just asking him questions and gently steering him? And this is just the AP advanced course in that.

Which involves pouring wine. making. Exactly. Yeah. Love some stone masonry. I think everyone's putting in scheming. I love that you have hobbies. That's so fun.

That's so cool. I got you, I got you your very own dragon figurine. Yeah. I had it made for you. Well, that was a nice gift. I think though, Chris, like everyone is plotting and scheming. Like as much as we're weirdly shipping the uncle

niece's marriage and saying, oh boy, watching these related people, fuck was one of our favorite scenes of the season so far. What a television program. they're also enacting a plot. And one of the things that's interesting about the Allison Vassarant dynamic is what happens then when he's removed. There's another fascinating conversation between Alicent and Laris when Vissaris is not there. And what did you both make of the moment between Kristen and Alicent earlier in the episode when he's like,

why is this guy Laris here and looking at you all the time? I also, here's another follow question for you. Chris and Cole had night watch duty. Where was Kristen Cole when all those children attacked each other? I think didn't Vassaris say that? Wasn't he just like, what the fuck do I pay you guys for? The King's Guard has never had to defend Princess from Pritch's. I have some notes on Kristen.

He needs to study Targaryen history a little bit more closely. Also, he thinks the boys are all cousins and that's not the correct relationship. So he's slipping on his homework a little bit. I don't know. Like, this is not a book thing. I don't know if Allison and Kristen are knock of boots or not. I don't know. I mean, I thought that the scene

between Allison and Laris was supposed to be basically like, this is Allison come full circle. In the end of the last episode, she's scandalized by Laris's admission that he has done her bidding and she's like, I didn't tell you to do that. And this time she comes to the end and she's just

like, I don't need you now. When I do need you, like, you'll know and know that you'll like have like a place. like in my kind of like galaxy here, consolation. Absolutely. But what does it mean

if the two people who are her closest confidants aren't working together? Like Kristen calls him Lionel Strong's son. Doesn't even call him by his name. And we're led to believe from the last episode

that Laris and Allison are like dining together by candlelight, whispering secrets to each other, basically nightly. Kristen is the closest person to Allison's in her sworn shield and doesn't maybe understand

the depth of that relationship. That's significant to me. The two of the people who are closest to her are not really aware of the other person's role in her life. Team Green, looking sloppy. All Kristen has to do is talk to Talia, the house maiden.

Oh, my God. Talia has eyes and ears everywhere. Talia knows. When does she become, like, basically, like, when does she become veris? She's, like, in every room. She's like, Tali, do you beat it? Like, I'm getting so up here. Centurally positioned in the cluster of Alasant.

I have a lot of questions. Egon, Helena. Unbelievable. Tully watch. If Tony Gilroy was writing this show, we would get like a Talia episode next. Like we would definitely get like the like side side thing. I think we can wrap it up there. We've really covered a lot.

Thanks to Steve Allman for producing us. Mallory and Joe will be back on Tuesday on Ringervorverse with the House of Our Deep dive into this episode of House of the Dragon. Andy and I will be chatting about it, but we're also covering some other stuff this week on the watch. But in the meantime, keep it dialed, ringerverse. There's lots of stuff happening. And thanks for listening.

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