The Ringer-Verse - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 8 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

Get your gold masks on and join Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson as they give their thoughts on this rocking new episode of 'House of the Dragon' and what this twisted family does as a civil war is brewing. Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Save at Whole Foods Market. Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan and I am an editor at the Ringer.com. Joining me as always is Ringer senior staff writer Joanna Robinson along with the only person who takes longer to walk across a room than Viseras Targaryen. It's Mount. Uh, pre, fruit, vent. How's it going?

Oh, boy. Guys, let's drain our cups to three strong hosts. What a great episode of House of the Dragon. We just got a lot of stuff happened. We're going to break down all of it. Joanna, what was the most important thing that we saw in this eighth episode of season one? I feel like I know what other people's answer is going to be. So I'm going to zag.

And I'm going to say it's how chaos broke out as soon as Vassaris left dinner. Like how that's the only thing holding all of this together, clearly. What do you think, Mal? That's my pick too, actually, because I think all of the other picks are pretty deeply connected to that moment and what we saw. You know, if our guy, Vesaris, the first Targaryen, has in fact taken his final breath, then if everything goes to shit the second he leaves the room, what happens when he leaves this mortal coil? That feels relevant. Also, the last thing that he did before tapping out is

confuse his wife for his daughter and talk about the prince that was promised. A classic Maliborban smuggle. That's the pick I thought you were going to do. They're all connected. You were like, I'm not going to pick the one that everybody's going to say, but I will say the one everybody's going to say.

So just so everybody knows, we record these a little bit before the actual episode airs. So we have not seen scenes from next week. If it turns out that episode nine is Viseris's funeral, which we all expect it to be, because what else could he contribute to this wonderful world we live in?

Our guy is arced out. You know, obviously, I think we all think that that was Vesaris's death breath. But when the screen cuts to black, Chris, and you reach out and you call out to your long lost love, it's the pawing of the FD air for me.

It's usually the end. That feels like a final moment. Chris, you're ready for a fakeout? If next week, Vesaris is like on Fandul doing same game parlies for a tournament. I just fool me once. That's all I'm saying. I think it was like for episode three. I was like, so Vesaris is dying. We should take that into account. I want to get into everything here.

We can do the recap really fast. And then I want to jump into that, to those dying words that Veseris had there. So in this episode, The Sea Snake has gotten himself an infect and is in failing health. The Royalty of Westrose engaged in the time-honored tradition of power grabbing in the face of tragedy. Luke, the son of Harwin and Reneira, but publicly the son of Lainor and Reneerah is next in line for the Driftmark throne. But Corliss's brother Vaman has something to say about that. The matter must go before the crown, which is actually Queen Allison at this point,

since Vesaris is basically just a satchel of dust. Renira and Damon, who BT-dubs recently unearthed some more dragon eggs, visit K.L. to solidify Luke's claim to the Drift Mark throne, and they find the old bag of bones Viseris barely able to get out of bed. the most important thing about these scenes about this show and this entire

universe that George Aramarton has created is that you never count out the triarchy. They have a habit of resurging at the worst possible moment we have never ever seen I don't know what their political ideology is I don't know what their goals are.

The triarchy have made more appearances on this show than dragons in some ways. Sarah's managing to say when he could barely get out a single intelligible sentence, wait, we won that war years ago is one of the funniest things. And it just be like, no, my Lord, four years ago, they started pop it up again. This is, I think, the funniest episode of House of the Dragon so far. Yeah.

Like, big time. So what happens next is a massive game of musical driftmark chairs with Reneira swearing to Reneas that she didn't have Lainor killed, technically true, and offering her sons to Damans and Lina's daughters as a blockbuster trade for the ages. The High Towers prefer to have Corliss's brother take over rather than Luke. There is a hearing of various petitioners where we find Otto sitting in the Iron Throne in the king's absence until Vassaris comes out of the locker room like Willis Reed and slowly makes his way to his rightful piece of furniture, the one that nicked him in the first place,

giving him this lifelong debilitating leprosy infection. He says that the matter has already been settled. Vaman loudly disagrees and calls Renews. son's bastards and Reneura, a horror, much to the delight of Damon. My favorite moment in this show so far is Damon being like, say it. And so Damon chops his head off, continuing the trend of unprosecuted knife crime in King's Landing. Things settled down after the beheading in the throne room. Everyone gathers for dinner.

Vassaris makes what is basically a dying wish that the entire family start getting along. And Allison and Reneer kind of go along with it. Allison and Reneer finally hug it out, and it's really going well until one-eyed Amin Targaryen stands up and makes a few double entendantra-laden toasts, and it all goes off. That night, Vassaris, thinking he's talking to his daughter, tells his wife about the song of ice and fire, convincing her that her Agon, a true piece of shit, is the person to unite the realm against the evil in the north. This will, I'm sure, cause no confusion going forward. Aigon takes a couple of last breaths as Allison, doting wife that she just beats it away from him

and we assume Agon is dead. That's my assumption. So Joe. Oh, Vesaris. Vasaris, yeah. Yeah, sorry. Egan unfortunately still going to show. Agon, unfortunately, still visiting chambermaids everywhere.

Yeah. Two agons now. Double the Agon. That's right. Because Damon and Rennie Nira have it in Agon as well. So Joe. Yeah. I want to talk about the entirety of the next,

however many decades of conflict being kicked off by an extremely high dying man, confusing his wife for his daughter. Is this in the books? And because my big question was like, you know, in the beginning of this series, you guys were like, this is new to have Vassaris telling Reneira about the song of ice and fire. So now multiple people know about this. What's going on here?

Yeah, this is obviously not in the book because the prophecy is not in the book as far as we know, like not overtly anyway. And I think we talked a lot last week about maybe the show putting a thumb on the scale for sympathy for the blacks. And this feels like an evening of that scale because like whatever Allison does next, she's doing presumably under the misinterpretation that Vassaris has asked her to put their shitty son on the throne.

Right. So she's honoring the dying wishes. We assume dying wishes of, you know, the king. Can I just read to you because I know you love it when we read passages from the book? I actually do. I just to find them quite illuminating. I just think it's really beautiful the way it's put in the book, right? Afterward the king sent them away, pleading weariness and a tightness in his chest.

Then Vesaris of House Targaryen, the first of his name, king of the Andles, the Roynar and the first men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and protector of the realm, closed his eyes and went to sleep. He never woke. He was 52 years old, rough. Wait, what? Yeah. Not 152, but 52 years old and had rain over and had rained over most of Westrose for 26 years. Then the storm broke and the dragons danced. One of the best lines in the whole book.

52? Yeah. Yeah. Bill's 52. That is wild stuff. Thank you, Joe. That is beautiful. So, yeah.

I mean, like, I'm very confused. I'm not confused. I think this is really interesting. Well, yeah, it's, well, it's a deeply added complication to the whole, again, like, the show has been enjoying adding these deeper complications to our understanding of, you know, who's in the right here. And I think what the show really wants us to be caught up in is that everyone is right from a certain point of view. And everyone is wrong from a certain point of view. And I do have questions about whether or not, like both of you, per our text, seem to, interpret this as Alicet now understands the prophecy. I'm not sure it's quite...

Okay, I'm not sure it's quite that. But I think Alicent believes that Vassaris's dying wish is that her son, Agon, sit the throne. Yeah. I think that's right. I think there's like a 4% chance, maybe let's say 3% chance that Allison actually leaves that conversation understanding the prophecy. I would say it's not impossible just given that Viseras has drunkenly revealed to

Allison's in a prior episode of this television show that he is a dreamer and talked about the roles of dreaming in House Targary. And it's possible that she left that conversation thinking about that, holding on to that, and is making a connection here. Like, oh, maybe he's actually talking about a prophetic dream here. We also know that I think this is a key distinction when we talk about this as a show invention or a show ad, a new reveal. That is specifically about Agon the Conqueror having this dream.

and this dream and this prophecy fueling his conquest of Westeros, the prince that was promised, well predates Agar. Right. And his existing lore in the universe. So Viseras utters those words. He says the prince that was promised. And so I would just say it's not impossible that Allison, who we know is like a diligent student and studying texts and stuff like that, that would ping something and that she could piece

this together. I would say that it is infinitely more likely, though, that. And I think this is what we all believe, that she comes out of that on the heels of a little bit of a return to the state of peace, stating that she had felt uneasy about the subterfuge that was playing out, legitimately appalled by Agon, to the point where she says to him, you are no son of mine. And then toasts are near on says, you will make a fine queen. And we could talk later about how much of the toasts that they share are sincere and how much are about this play acting to make. piece and maybe it's a combination, but that Allison leaves that hearing that Fissaris is saying, in his final moments, you're the one who has to ensure that the realm stays together by Agon. If everybody didn't have the same fucking name, folks, this wouldn't be an issue, but they do.

That Agon, our kid, has to be the one on the throne. And the other thing that I think really reinforces that interpretation is in the, in the the Vaman's succession petition sequence, when Viseris comes in, he says that the only person equipped to clarify Corliss's wishes is his wife, Rainis. And so this puts Alicent in a position now to say, from the king's own mouth, he has said that the only person who would be able to clarify a succession plan and desire is his wife. I'm telling you the last thing he said to me. I think at the very least, Alison's going to come out of this conflicted, because I do believe in the sincerity of her, like, wanting to make peace with Reneer at that dinner.

Like, Allison and Reneer seem the most sincere. I also believe in her sincerity of being like, my son is no son of mine. And being like, are we sure we want this guy to be king? Yeah. Yeah. So now we have basically two different factions of this family who are in different ways aware of this prophecy.

And it doesn't even matter how aware they are because now they're also using. I think we can still say, let's just say that Allison's is not aware of the prophecy. see. I think that is the safer, clearer way to go, that she just thinks that Viseras wants Agon to be heir and has said make this happen. And that her sense of duty and, like, adhering to a vow that guides her throughout everything we've seen so far would kick in again there and complicate that that rekindled warmth with Reneira, right? I think it's like accurate to say both sides feel

convinced that they have from the word of Vassaris that their claim, Agan or Reneera is the only incorrect claim. And crucially, I would imagine, since Renera was like, I have to take my kids home, I'll come back on Dragonback in a bit. Viseris dies. There is this vacuum. There is like a lack of physical presence from Reneura in Kings Landing at a moment when, you know, they can install Aagon if that so comes to pass. What I was curious about, Mal, is Viseris took great pains to explain the importance of what he was sharing with Reneira. and if I remember correctly,

showed her the inscription on that dagger, right? Like, there is a degree of, like, could you say receipts that Reneera has, like proof of purchase on this throne that she's like, look, this goes beyond just like chess, you know, chess moves of which family is in control. Like, I'm supposed to stand up against this yet to be determined evil coming out of the north,

which is also, like, really tough for anybody in the north, being like, I'm not the bad guy here. I'm like, I guess that's a stark point. problem, though, yeah. Why don't you reach out? Let's talk about this. They're like further north, higher. Exactly. We're lower north. If Renera's looking for receipts, all she needs to say is, my father the king publicly declared me heir. You all bent the knee. He never changed his mind. And mere moments ago in the throne room was advocating for my line and my children. How's that for receipts. Still, it's a good question. And I think it's the other reason that Joe and I feel pretty

confident that Allison leaves that room saying, I understand the wish of the king, not I understand Agon the Conqueror, Agan the Dragon's secret prophecy is because, you know, we've talked about this a lot, like the unreliable narrator in nature of fire and blood, not everything that we get in that text is the actual thing that happened. That's fine and good. I do think it's safe to say, though, that if widely and far across the land in court, in Kings Landing and beyond, Reneira and Alicett were shouting out loud, there is a prophecy about saving the world

from the apocalyptic winter, and I or my child is the one who has to fend it off, that would have made it into the history books. So I just don't think that Reneira is going to actually ever say this out loud, and I think if Alicent knows she would have no choice. And so, like, I think this will remain something that Reneer guards pretty close,

I think we're probably going to see her tell Damon. That feels like we need to get more people in her confidence. But I don't think that Renira, to the receipts question, could say, like, let me put this blade in the fire and show all of you what burden I'm inheriting. Because, like, actually, how does that help her? If she does that, then it's just, then it just allows Allison to say, yeah, and that's about my kid. And also, let me tell you about this other dream my husband told me about where he said he saw the conqueror's crown on his son.

I don't know that it helps her if she does that. Yeah, I think it's also important to, like, where is the dagger right now? It's with, like, Team Allison. Right, because the camera pans down to it. Yeah, Allison has the dagger, first of all. And secondly, I would love a scene where Raineris shoves it in the fire. And Allison's like, who's to say you didn't just do that yesterday? Like, how do you prove that this is an ancient inscription, you know?

So that's my, that leads me to my next question of what I thought was secretly the most fascinating part of this episode. was a brief moment in the beginning when Damon and Renier are arriving and most of the Targaryen iconography has been stripped from Kings Landing and replaced with that of the Faith of the Seven. And to me, that would also suggest Allison's skepticism, I guess, about dreamers and prophecies

and knives with inscriptions on them and all sorts of things that Renira might try to use for her claim because she's obviously trying to move things away from the traditional old Voleria way of seeing things. Am I right? I mean, it would seem like her interior decoration would definitely seem that way. Yeah.

I did note that the Targaryen fuck murals are still going strong in Vassaris's room. Well, I mean, she's an art lover. Yeah, yeah. But elsewhere, they're gone. So I feel like the last, like, orgy murals are in Vassarice's room. And then once he's dead, all that's are off. But I absolutely, Alicent is cloaking herself, the seven-point star that she's

wearing ostentatiously, like all that's there. But that feeds back into what Reneira said last week about sort of like the veil of her righteousness, that piety that she dresses herself in. Because, as Mallory has pointed out, many times, like, when we theorize about this, like, ever since we saw a promo photo of Olivia Cook with a giant seven-pointed star on her, we're like, okay, is this going to be a religious war, which isn't necessarily in the book, but is that what they're building up for for Alicent? And then Mallory is pointing out, she's like, it's hard to be on your, like, high horse of piety, Allison, if you married your son to your daughter, which she did.

Like, Agon and Helena are married and have kids as we find out in this episode. And so it's like, what it means is that Alicent is pious maybe when. it serves her. Politically pious. This is a great Allison episode, I will say, for my, like, empathy for Allison. I felt for her in a lot in this episode, so I'm not trying to, like, paint her as an out-and-out villain at all. But I do think that piety is sometimes convenient for her when it's convenient, you know? Yeah.

I also think it makes, not that she was in any way not a very clear threat before, but it, like, crystallizes the same. second they walk in, how the nature of that threat has evolved. And what, I think, crucially, what the threat could look like moving forward. Because there are a couple things, right? There's, you see the seven-pointed star everywhere. Damon has that great line about, Alcantai, I have no doubt. It was an act of the purest mercy.

But tell me, for the king's suffering, did the maesters also order the removal of Dargarian Heraldry? Like, it's just incredible. And Reneera says that she says it would be nice to be home, but she barely recognizes it. I love that Damon's sitting in that scene. It's like, dude, she's the queen and the other one is pregnant. Like, you should just get up and let her sit.

Our guy is always either in a chair or leaning against a wall and I'm here for it. It's amazing. But like, think back to season two of Game of Thrones and Joffrey's interior redesign of the throne room. When somebody is changing the seat of power, the red keep to match their personal preference, like it is a sign that something fundamental has shifted about who is in power, who is in control. And I think like when we process how that would make Rainer and Damon feel walking in or how it could potentially play out, when they assess the threat that House High Tower poses in the future, it's a couple things. Like I think that everything Joe said about that cloak of piousness is essential. House High Tower, though, has like a longstanding history with the faith of the seven, both seated in Old Town.

The faith is still centered in Old Town right now at this point in the timeline. So you walk in, you see the seven point of star in Allison's body, you see it all around you. It's like the faith could be a powerful ally for Alicent's at any point. And that's a huge, huge, huge, huge risk for Renera. My Westeroce religious studies degree has expired. So I was wondering if there was a quick. I thought those were for life. No.

It was kind of, it was a University of Phoenix thing. So I don't think that the degree really stuck. Got it. But the Faith of the Seven, is there like an analog, would you say, for, I mean, our own human history that, like, they're trying to sort of say, like, was it, like, the Protestant Reformation? Like, what is? Catholicism. Catholicism. And then, like, Targaryen's beliefs are more, what, like, old world boccan alien kind of, like, we're superheroes and we can do what we want?

It's tough because, like, so they're the old gods within Western. But the Targaryians basically believe themselves to be the gods is sort of my, you know. And it's been a constant shaky detente between the church and the Targaryens where the Targaryens have tried to say like, okay, we're conquering Westeros. This is the established church. Let's find a way to sort of get along and pretend. This is why that scene with like young Reneura, young Alicent in the Sept was so important to be the beginning of the season, right? because Allison is... Oh, she's like, pray with me, right?

Yeah, and when you're like, how does one pray again? Because it's Targary... Like, I might be fluent in High Valerian, but I have known nothing about the church at all because this isn't what we believe in or what we do. We'll acknowledge the power of the church. And then in some instances, in Targaryen royal history, there's an open war with the church.

And so it's a really complicated relationship. Yeah, and like you have Alicent invoking the father and saying a prayer at dinner in addition to all of the iconography. populating the Red Keep. And you have Renera and Damon six years prior getting married in Valerian blood and binding ritual, not even in the light of the seven.

So, like, I think the point about Agon and Helena being a brother, sister, sibling, incestuous marriage, and the hypocrisy of that, given Allison's personal feelings on those, quote, queer customs of the Targaryens is germane. But also, she's in a position to basically do what Jeharis did when he agreed to the doctrine of exceptionalism with the faith and say, okay, we're abiding by the agreement that House Targaryen reached with the faith of the seven.

So this one thing is all inside of a desire to adhere to the faith and inside of a desire to be aligned with the faith. Reneira is not interested in that. And so if you are going to choose a side, you, the faith, choose us. And I think it's clear that Allison is trying to like, that that would be projected if you are walking in and seeing that. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Cream. The day doesn't ask for permission.

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Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. So, Joe, you brought up a really good point where Allison has made a lot of compromises in the intervening years since she first fell out with Reneira when they were essentially kids. And one of them is marrying her son and her daughter together.

And another is giving the chambermaid the same tea that the maister gave Reneira after her night, allegedly with Damon, but in reality with Kristen. Is this supposed to be suggestion that she's just a great political operator? Or is it that she's like slowly starting to lose her, like moral center as she gets older. I, like, it's, it was a really fascinating scene, right? Because there are.

And not too subtly, like, obviously echoing like the language of Me Too about like, she's like, I believe you. But, you know, like there was. Right. It was obviously like trying to kind of push some buttons there. It gave me strong Chavon Roy at the end of season two, a succession, you know, that, that harrowing conversation. It's also in its language meant to reflect a lot of the conversations we saw between

Circe and Sansa in early Game of Thrones. Like that is definitely there, her calling her sweetling and all this stuff like that. But unlike Circe, I genuinely believe Allison does feel for this young girl. And we see it in her. She's holding Egon more accountable, I think, than Searcy ever held Joffrey in the next scene. Not the greatest parenting move to scream at your misbehaving child and saying, you are no son of mine. But I don't know that I read it as entirely hypocrisy, but I think it is really important to note the difference between her kids and Reneer's kids. I noted that.

Yeah. Yeah. Just a few slight differences, right? And, and like, however much empathy we have for Al Alicent and I have plenty in this episode, I still also have to judge her if she's got a kid like Agon. Like, you know, and amen. Like, you know, and whether that's just like, it was tough for her to parent children that were born out of a marriage that was forced upon her with an old, like, decaying man. Like, then I can find it. But they've were her there.

But at the end of the day, like, Agon is a monstrous kid. And that is reflective of her and her parenting choices. And so I don't know that I felt that that was, I was glad to see from Allison. some genuine empathy for this young girl, even as she's doing her duty, I suppose, which is covering up her son's absolute bullshit. What do you think, Mal?

I agree. I mean, I think that she seems to feel for Diana, sincerely, even as she is then also intimidating her, I know you won't. Here's a bag of money. Here's this tea. Drink it. You must do what I say,

which is horrified. And then what does Allison actually say to Egon as she is screaming in him? She says, think of the shame on your wife on me. How can you keep carrying on like this, especially on a day like today? So that doesn't mean she doesn't feel anything genuinely inside of her for Diana and feel horribly more broadly for what women are subjected to in the realm. I think that's very present here. But and I think when she's thinking about her daughter about Helena, she's also thinking

about it in those terms, like a woman who needs to be in a certain marriage, because of what it means politically and for the path to power and how horrible that is now for the rest of that life, right? But also thinking about what Agon has just done, through the lens of the shame it would bring on the family and the way that it would complicate their ambition, like, that's awful. That's horrific. Well, no real person involved, right? Again, to cite succession, right? Like, this is a, not my belief, obviously, but this is the, like, going to be the ongoing belief of. And this is Aden, Fire and Blood, this idea

that Agon was just, you know, assaulting the maid servants around the castle. Because he is, I don't know if he picked up, not a good dude. Not, my great, Agon. Also, I wanted to ask about these kids because, and I'm sure that Ryan Connell and the creators and the writers are doing this on purpose, where the Reneer's children are ostracized

because of being supposedly bastard. but the capital B. And Allison's kids are just bastards. Like, they're just like these, like, especially the sons. And Amon especially. Elaine is fine. Yeah, she's cool. She just wants to play in spiders.

From Helena. Honestly. But Amon essentially restarts the Civil War between these two families. You know what I mean? Like he gets up there and he has had a like miraculous growth spurt. First of all, just completely passing. Agon on the left in the height division. Definitely inherited Viseris' genes of aging 30 years for every three that passed.

I think notably is essentially Kristen Cole's equal in the training, right? And as like puts the blade to his throat and is like, I got you on this one. So physically, obviously very able. And clearly doesn't care about making, first of all, it certainly doesn't care about honoring his father's wishes about there being peace. and has got something driving him that's pretty dark and pretty disturbing. Can you, Mal, is there anything I need to know

about the six years since we last saw Amman say, I got a dragon, it was a fair trade, and now when he is apparently grown into the ideal stretch four, six, ten, stretching the court, you know, like able to crash the boards, able to handle and make plays. Yeah. He's got it all.

Couple things. One, my note for everyone involved at the dinner, maybe don't serve pig, given the pink dread and the traumatic childhood incident. Because as soon as the pig comes out, and that was amazing scene choreography, Vesaris being carried out as the pig is being carried in. And the way that Luke looks over the pig

and smirks and laughs and just incites that rage in Agon. And of course, Jace calling back to their shared youth, everybody is just looking for one excuse to act. And they don't even really need a real excuse, right? Amon, so here's one line from Fire and Blood that I think pretty well sums up the growth spurt and the evolution here. Quote, Prince Amon, despite the loss of his eye, had become a proficient and dangerous swordsman under the tutelage of Sir Kristen Cole, but remained a wild and willful child, hot tempered and unforgiving. That's kind of the essence of it, and that comes across here. And I think one of my favorite moments in the episode that was like in the quiet or quicker bucket,

not the huge set pieces, which were incredible, when Vamond with the House High Tower guards comes in and the doors open in the yard and everybody turns to look, this is after Amon very creepily calls out to his nephews and asks if they want to train, we get an overhead shot of the yard. Everybody is turning toward the door to look at what's coming. what's Eamon doing? He's going to get another shield. Like this guy's always readying for the fight.

Always. The moment, it was almost super, it was spooky. So like, you know, Jace, little Jason Luke or taller Jason Luke. By the way, Harry Colette's, the actor who's playing 16-year-old Jace. And I looked at that kid, I was like, I bet that kid was a Billy Elliott and he was. Was he? So, yeah, yeah. I was like, I feel like I can smell the Billy Eliots now as they popular.

Who plays Amon? Because I don't think that kid was a Billy Elliott. kid was never a Billy Elliott. Yeah, that kid, that's, that's you and Mitchell. It's funny because I really, he seems like he's in gangs of London or something, like it was not Billy Elliot. He and the actress who played Helena were both in the last kingdom, the Netflix show. But it's, it's interesting because Tom Glencarnie, who plays Agon and I think it's Fia Sabin, who plays Helena, I think they both look a lot like Olivia Coleman in the face, a lot. And then you and Mitchell, who plays Aeman Targary. And I think they cast.

asked him to look like Matt Smith, because as you, like, might have seen as they sort of, like, you see, it's meant to be that the team greens has their own Damon now and it's Amin Targaryen, right? At the moment when they're staring each other down. Yeah, they're squaring off at the end of the dinner or whatever. And I, you know, in the rule of like king of the court, in a basketball term, not in a royal family term, I did take note that Amon is now on the same level as Kristen who kicked Damon's 10 years ago or 16 years ago or whatever it was. And I love that sequence because, like, he's training with Kristen. Luke and Jace are sort of like, what's all this then?

Walk up. And then they, and the Aman turns, they see the eye passion. Like, oh, shit, that's Aman. Oh, fuck. Right? And they have this, like, they have this awful moment. And then Aeman never looks at them is, like, fighting Kristen the whole time, wins the thing.

And then, like, shoots his one eye over at them, like, says, cousins. And, like, he knows that they're there. and has clocked them despite never, like, pausing to look at them. It is terrifying. Like, this guy is spooky. He's always scanning the floor. Like, great court vision. Incredible stuff.

And I think what's important about, I mean, Amon, we all agree, looks way older than the other kids. But I think it's important, this is another six-year time jump. We get all new actors for the kids. We don't know Mallory and I for certain, but I think doing math on what's, I don't think, we're going to do another major time jump. I think this is it. So all these actors gathered at dinner here, these are our actors going forward, right?

And what I love about, like, I think Jace especially, our Billy Elliott kid, is like that actor is like 18, 19, and he's supposed to be 16. He looks like a 16-year-old to me. So he looks like the kind of boy soldier that John Snow and Rob Stark were supposed to be. Kit Harrington and Richard Madden were like in their mid-twit,

when they were cast. And they never felt like children to me. But they never realized. They kind of massage that. They were like, these guys could be like warriors, but they're also supposed to be kids. Right.

Yeah. And like, so when you, when Rob Stark leads a war at the beginning of Game of Thrones, this is a boy king. Like, this is a boy king of the north, right? And,

but Jace actually does feel like a boy. And so thinking of what, you know, whatever's to come as, you know, the Dragon's Day. like it's scary to think of these kids involved in all of that. Yeah, he's still like genuinely excited to run through the training yard.

I was so struck by Luke, who is only supposed to be canonically a year younger than Jace, though seems like the gas. Much younger. Feels a little bit bigger to me than the show. Yeah. He's like, it looks so much smaller. And that was such a like a moment that you can relate to when you're a kid, everything seems huge to you. And you go back and you're like, this is just a room. Oh, I'm taller than my locker now.

Like, it just does remind you how small they've been for all of this. And like... I don't think I was ever taller than my locker, but that's my cross-to-bear. Jase is just, like, trying to get better at his homework, like, really frustrated with themselves. They can't learn High Valerian. And, like, what is the, the language that they're translating? What is it about?

It's about the conquest. Like, it's about this fabled, these fabled figures from House Targaryen's history and a war of might and strength. Like, it's, I agree with Joe. like you really felt the youth there in a way that was helpful. And then it's like shocking when you swing to the other side and you hear when Helena comes in to the Allison Agon scene and Allison is confronting Agon about Diana. Helena comes in and asks where Diana is and says she's supposed to dress the children. Like not only have Helena and Agon gotten married in the intervening time, they have kids now.

I was surprised Allison wasn't like, you know, Diana's not around, but you should use Talia. She's right here. Totally always available. Always ready. I'm really glad you said that because that's the other thing. Talia is the one who brings the moon tea and then Talia is the one who goes to Masaria at the end. So like, I want to get to Masaria, but I, you know, I did, I will get some of the sorry because she, I was like, is she just off this show now?

Like I wasn't really sure what was going on with that. But she does pop up in this episode. Here's the thing I just wanted more of like a broad conversation topic that I thought was kind of cool. One of the issues that I think I've had with the show over the course of the season has been how confined it is to the sort of chambers of power. Like, it hasn't really done a lot with the exception of the naming day feast where we're out in the forest and stuff like that. Yeah, we go to some different lands. We go to Driftmark, we go to Dragonstone, we go to Kings Landing. But for the most part, it's in these very powerful rooms. And I know

the Game of Thrones did that as well, but it had a lot of, like, flea bottom. And it had a lot of like here we are with this army in the field. And what I've sort of started to come to appreciate about what House of the Dragon is doing in that regard is that it is a sly commentary on what an illusion all these people's power is. Because you can lose or gain power due to a misunderstanding, due to mishearing something on someone's deathbed.

Due to the fact that you're just like, you know what, I'm just going to go ahead and say, Corlis didn't really want it this way. Or even if he did, fuck Corlis, he's dead, which I want to talk about whether or not like that was the best way to handle that. So it's been a really interesting thing, Joe, where I think that this show is more leaning

into the ideas of how thin the thread is that binds people to power. Yeah. No, and I think that's really true. And I mean, that's one of the, we've talked about the many, many interpretations of everything Helena has ever said in last week's episode. One of the, you know, her,

she was talking about hands moving wheels and threads, black threads, green threads. And I think one solid interpretation, of that is, yeah, how tenuous all of this is on a knife's edge, like how everything could go one way or another. And I think what really

underlines that for me in this episode is Reneer and Allison in that moment at the end of the dinner when Reneer, when Allison's like, you just got here, stay, we're friends. And Rineer is like, I got to drop the kids off in the Volkswagen, but I'll be back.

Yeah. But I'll take the sports car back. I was like, stay. You know, it's like there's constantly these almost moments, especially for these women who we've seen as go from the closest of friends as young girls to where they are now, where there's been so many moments where it's like almost reconciliation. Yeah, and even the fact that like Vaman is so outright defying Viceris in front of Vassaris in front of Vassaris's entire court and then in turn gets his head chopped off in front of the entire court and kind of nobody does anything.

You know, it's all kind of like, this is just playing out, this is the theater of power that we're kind of involved in, but nobody arrests Damon for chopping off. Otto makes one very feeble. Oh, he's like, unarmed that man.

Mostly because he's clearly afraid of Damon. Where else slice next? Yeah. Just really quickly, Chris, I would just advise that next time you do a very public crime, you have a good quip ready because Damon's saying he can keep his tongue.

I think it's the best defense. He could ask. God. Now, so the episode starts and they're like, guys, the triarchy. And someone got Coralus.

He's got blood fever, et cetera. And they're like, well, he should be here in three days. And Renice is like, cool, I'm going to leave.

I'd go to King's Landing. And we're going to have, have this discussion about whether or not, like, who's going to take over Drift Mark, even though there's no death certificate on my husband. So what's going on here? Like, Corliss, are, do you, I mean, is Corlis's fate still up in the air? Or is this another great misunderstanding that shifts the balance of power? You know, Renice isn't at the dinner. That's true. On that tight timeline to get home and see what Corliss's fate is. I think this connects to actually. I think this connects to actually completely to the last question you just asked Chris about the illusion of power and how

thin that line is because it's like the it's the the famous veris quote right power resides where men believe it resides it's a trick it's a shadow in the wall so the second anybody has the opportunity to cast another shadow instead they will and that i think is like the really especially given the conclusion with visceris our guy i think that is like the key takeaway of this episode. Everything that's happening with Corlis and with House Valerian, with much love and respect to House Valerian, is a microcosm for what can then happen. Right. Preview. The coming attractions. Yeah. And like, exactly. And I think that that's why the Saris obviously enters the room in the first place, goes down to the throne room,

which we're like, obviously we must talk about. Because Reneura comes to him in the dead of night and begs him to stand up for her to support her claim and her children because of this you have you have put this burden on me if you still believe show up but in the face of that challenge in the face of those petitions like what is what does he say says i must admit my confusion i do not understand why petitions are being heard over a settled succession you just then apply that to everything happening with house targaryen right like when when when vaman has the gall to say to him. And this, I think, also connects to your stepstones question.

Because, like, how was that positioned initially earlier in the season? And more broadly, those conversations about, like, needing to respond to a challenge. You can't let anybody think that you're weak for a second. And so the gall of screaming that the king has fucked up his own house but won't do the same to House Valerian, calling those kids a bat, calling those kids bastards, screaming it when Vassaris has sworn that if anybody did that, he would take out their tongues, calling the heir to the Iron Throne, a whore in the throne room. An open court.

Say it. Say it. Go for it. On the one hand, I was impressed that Vassaris found the strength to stand and pull his dagger, but anything short of what Damon did would have been almost unfathomable in the face of that, because it's just such an affront. And Renice, you know, wasn't like, oh gosh, my brother-in-law. She was just like, whew, good.

That guy's gone. Yeah, yeah. It feels like no love loss there, honestly. Okay, can we talk about the long walk, by the way? So that was probably, in some ways, the set piece of the episode. And in some ways, the set piece of the season so far, Dragons accepted, was this moment where Viseris enters the throne room. Otto is feeling as Oates sitting on the Iron Throne.

And the show... The way he leans forward. Yeah. And I think it goes from something kind of unintentionally funny to something quite beautiful and touching. So Joe, what were your thoughts on that moment? I was like hooting with laughter and then I was openly sobbing, genuinely. When he drops the crown in this like beautiful parallel of, you know,

Damon and the Driftwood crown and all. So, like, he drops the crown and Damon picks it up. He looks up, but it's Damon. Like, I, you know, and then I thought Patty Constantine was extraordinary and the VFX team, extraordinary in this episode. I also thought Matt Smith was incredible in this episode. And so for the moment when he says, come on, I just, like, that's, that's the height of this whole season for me, this complicated, constant complicated relationship between

these two brothers, but how Damon has always been, like, you can talk shit about my brother. I can talk shit about my brother, but you can't. Like, I just wanted to be by his side helping him. Like, that's all I ever, he only ever wanted was Viseris to say, come and be by my side and help me. And the fact that Reneira said it to him last week was this, like, big moment where he's like, yeah, I just wanted to be your second. And, like, when Viseras says in the first episode, I don't think Damon even really, like, wants the throne. He doesn't want to do that.

The actors have backed that up at every interview. They're like, yeah, Damon doesn't want the throne. Yeah. Like, that's not what he wants. Like, he wants maybe proximity to power, but he doesn't, like, he's not, you know, power hungry for the throne. And he genuinely loves his brother and they've had conflict after conflict in that very room, you know.

And so to have him show up at that moment, absolutely gutted me. And he seems sort of appalled by, by Vassaris in this episode up until this point. Like, when Varnira is, like, lovingly, kind of. of doting on him when they first go into his sick room. Like, I felt like Damon was a little bit more like, let's get what we need out of this politically. Like, let's inform him about certain things. I didn't think so.

That wasn't my take. Like, for me, it was almost like hard for him to look at Vassaris. Anytime he looked at him, it was difficult. He says, brother when he first sees him. Right. When Veseris brings up your favorite topic, the triarchy, and he's like, I thought we won that war. Yeah.

Damon looks so embarrassed. Because he's like, you just obviously have been like on the whole thing. of the poppy for five years, right? But he's also just like, I fucked that up. Yeah, I did that. I got us into that. And then I want to hear everything that Malice say about this. But I think the last thing I want to say about the long walk as, like, funny and then

pointed as it was, as great as Patty Constine's, like, bodywork was and all of that, we've talked a couple times about the various, like, important long walks that these characters have taken in this season. Reneera covered in bore blood, Allison in her green dress. Damon and the driftwood crown as he walks into the throne room. And so I just like these moments for all these major characters and what it means for them in terms of like what does power look like? What kind of power is important to them?

It's important to Viseris to do this walk on his own, wearing the crown, all that sort of stuff. You know, whereas later he's brought in on a litter. I'm like, where was that litter like earlier, you know? But he needed to do it without the milk of the poppy on his own. and the only person allowed to help him is Damon. And I just, I thought that was, I thought this is incredible. What did you think, Mallory Rubin? Yeah, this was my favorite moment of the season for all the reasons that you just said.

I perhaps, because I am a monster, perhaps this is because everybody will respond to this moment. I think exactly what you said, Joe, when the doors open and everybody turns, part of it is the comedy of seeing how someone like Otto High Tower reacts, right? The shock and the horror I've been found out. I've been thwarted. but when we first see Patty of the opera with that golden mask, and then he waddles and hobbles forward, shuffle by shuffle, presumably missing toe by missing toe. This is why you shouldn't nail down furniture. In a different world, they could have just brought the throne to him and reverse the axis, you know?

Like Joe said, you know, people are coming and offer the king's guard. They're coming. Oh, let me help. No. He had Sir Eric Cargill tries. I thought we were going to do the whole pod about Sir Eric and Sir Eric. That's all the bar level stuff. You know, I can't really weigh in on that.

I do Christmas swipe to talk about that. And the way that we shifted in an instant from the awkward comedy of that, but also mixed in the whole time, like it's not even a shift because you're moved and you're touched and you're horrified and you're sad. And you're laughing almost like the way you would at a funeral where it's like nervous laughter. Like, you're embarrassed. You shouldn't be laughing, but you're like, oh, my God, this is, they're really going for it. And when you see after the crown falls, the hand first, and then the, the, the moment where you see the help of the, the, the dragon egg, and like, you know it's Damon. And it's

just, like, also broke down in tears. It was just so lovely in that come on. And like Joe said, the number of scenes between them, very fraught, family defining, decades defining, confrontations between them that took place in front of that throne and the payoff here was so sublime. Like this is just, this is the culmination of their relationship and their arcs. And the last thing we saw, granted it was six years ago, but last episode was, was Damon saying he needs nothing from Viseris, like rejecting the invitation to return. And this is, this is what they needed from each other that whole time. And like, I think, Chris, to your question about, like, what was Damon's response to seeing him? You know, even when they first go in and see him in his sickbed, the way that Vesaris is just like whisper breathing, wheezing out Damon's name.

Like he is so moved emotionally to know that Damon is there. And then for Reneira and Damon to present Vassaris's namesake to him, like that was just so moving and really lovely and wonderful and sad. And it's like deeply tragic because this is the thing. We've been harsh on Viseras. much of the season, rightly so. But whether you're watching the show or you're reading fire and blood, like the takeaways from Vassaris or he hated dissension. Anytime he exiled Damon, he was ready to welcome him back.

Like he and Reneer would have a fight. She was the joy of his life. Like these are the people who are most important to him in the world. His only child. Yeah, right. Tough. And the speech that he makes then at the dinner to them when he takes his mask off and It's this inversion of the Allison Renierre and now they see you as you are a moment where he's using that idea of like, let's see each other as we are and try to find understanding and cohesion and strength in that instead of division.

And the just absolute tragedy of this like final desperate effort to bring the people in his life together. And for that to be his legacy after Jiharis's reign and Viseris has reign largely defined by peace. Like this debilitating sadness that he knew that the piece was not maintained inside his own house. And he keeps like muttering these little things throughout the episode about how he's sorry, how he needs to fix it. It's just so heart-wrenching. Yeah. I mean, it's also, I think sometimes when you're in the throes of the episode and you're seeing Helena and Agonne sitting there and you're just like, this is just so twisted. It's hard to like kind of negotiate the fact that like, so this is.

is entirely because Renira and Harwin were together off-screen, essentially, which is, you know, like this romance that birthed these kids that have, like, essentially become the sticking point for the peaceful succession of this family. I don't know. It's part of it, but that was already, it was already in the mix. Like, before Harwin Strong, Otto and more significantly his brother, Hobart were like, there's a boy. There's a boy king now.

Like we named a girl because we were desperate and didn't want Damon, but there's a boy in the mix now. So that was already, I think, in the world. But in a world where almost everyone can do pretty much anything they want, she can't have kids by this guy. You know, and then or at least those kids can't be in line for succession, right? I will say, like, we've talked a little bit about this idea that they cast House Valerian as, you know, it's a black house, it's a mixed race house. and how interesting that is in this very episode when Vaman is like, these kids who look nothing like me cannot have my...

House of Larian has stood proud for eons, and you're going to put these kids, like, you know, on our throne. And I think it's really cleverly underlines this idea of, now just extrapolate that out to, like, these kids who don't look. They are as Targaryen as they, their uncles as Uncle Amen and Uncle Agon, but they don't look it. And that's a big issue for a house that is so proud of its silvery blondeness that considers itself gods among men. Now, of course, it's the high towers who are pushing this issue, and that is they're pushing

it to, you know, help feed their own ambition. But I don't know. I think the question of bloodlines, you know, it's literally the opening credits of the show. I think it's not quite the same as some of the other. You can do whatever you want. Yeah. No, I think I mean it more almost in like the, you know, the unfairness of the world that Reneer finds herself in and that this guy that she's sort of hooked up with has become this albatroche that she's carrying around.

Whereas pretty much, I mean, Agon made me married to his sister, but he's allowed to, he's allowed to do whatever he wants and people cover it up. And, you know, obviously there's a lot of like gender inequality going on in this era of the story and in most of Game of Thrones. But I found it fascinating. I think though that was at the heart of the Allison Renera show down last week too, right? Like that idea that Allison wields at Renera that like she can do what she wants. And Allison's never felt like she could. So I think that that is a central tension across these character lines like in relationships.

And, Chris, I know you've been throughout the last few weeks. very, like, very devoted to this idea. Like, couldn't Roneira just say, yeah, you're, yeah, guess what? You're all right. Like, what are you going to do about it? Yeah. There are three strong boys. Thanks for noticing.

And let's move forward. And I think, like, okay, a couple things are true. Bastards can rise high in the realm. We've seen that across another television show that we've all watched together. There are plenty of examples of that. How Sparathian itself, like, traces its roots to Orisprathian, Egon the Conqueror's bastard half brother. plenty of people who are currently aligned with Rainira, no, they know this to be true.

And they have accepted it and decided to move forward with her, including Corlis, right? Like, he's not like, what are you talking about? He says history remembers names. So people can make their individual choice there. I don't think it's that. It's that, like Joe was just noting, the push from the high towers, and even more so, like a lot of what said to Allison, part of it was gaslighting and manipulation, but part of it was true, was the realm, and this was what Renice said to Renera on episode two, like the realm at large.

There would be people across the realm who would not be ready for Renera, who would not want it. And there would be people across the realm who would be ready to support Agon. And so this, an acknowledgement of her children's parentage is in, it's a delegitimalization of their claim. It weakens their claim and thus it weakens hers. like think of the moment when Vassar said go like sure up your line, sure up your succession. It would cost her their biggest and most important ally in House Valerian. Obviously that's complicated already.

We talked about the faith of the seven earlier. It would risk inciting the faith. Like think about in Game of Thrones every time we're walking through the streets of Kings Landing and adherence to the faith are shouting about the abominations of of incest but also bastardry, right? So it would give Alicent. And the greens all right. Everything that they needed.

If she just was like... Get off my back about this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's this line in the book around this time about baby Vassaris. Yeah. And about how his dragon never hatched and that the greens use this as sort of...

Even though Vassaris is like, baby Vassaris, Reneura and Damon's kid, is very obviously a Targary, very blonde baby, right? All that sort of stuff. But the fact that his dragon is... tagnake never hatched, like the high towers, the greens will use sort of any excuse to undermine. And so it's like they'll, they'll attack it from both ends. And one of the ends that they'll attack it from is these Targaryians aren't Targaryen enough. I think that's why it's so important that we open with Jay struggling overlearning, high Valerian. You know what I mean? It's just like is that these guys just aren't ready for prime time. Yeah. I feel like as usual, it's difficult to

ask about what comes next because we have some sense of what comes next if we read the books. So we can just leave it there. I feel like this show is certainly revving up for an exciting last two episodes. We'll be back with you on Sunday night, next Sunday night, to talk about episode 9, the penultimate episode of the first season.

Mallory and Joanna will be with you on Tuesday for a deep dive on this episode and all the episodes on House of R on Ring orverse. Andy and I will hit it. We were produced as usual by Steve Allman. Any closing thoughts? One quick thing I want to say for our beloved pal Andy Greenwald

who is struggling with this show. and I love him, and I respect his struggle. He was asking for relatable content. Here's my favorite most relatable content moment from this episode. Reneera naming her kid, Agon, which in the books, which in the book really pissed Allison off. Like, that is actually genuinely relatable content. I think I've heard of families being like, you stole my baby name, you know, sort of thing. The Viceris Walk to the Throne is very much Andy completing a 5K.

You know, like, it's just like, it's like, what do you do? Thanks so much for doing this with me. I can't wait to talk to you about next week. So we'll see you then. Feels like every product claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source. Like real California milk from California farm families,

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