The Ringer-Verse - ‘House of the Dragon’ Episode 9 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: October 19, 2022

It’s time to do a coup and dive deep into the latest episode of ‘House of the Dragon.’ They head to the Dragonpit for some plot analysis (07:22). Later, they give out the episode’s awards (02:51:24), as well as look into book spoilers and see what they can predict for the future (02:59:19). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash earn. You are wiser than I believed you to be. Alison Taitower. A true queen counts the cost to her people. And yet you toil still in service to men. Your father, your husband, your son.

You desire not to be free, but to make a window in the wall of your prison. And welcome into the Ringerverse. Here on the Ringer podcast network, I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the dragon pit, but also to join us on the ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished reminding me, we swore an oath of service until death. It's by House of our co-host Joanna Robinson. Mallory, what a joy to see you. What a joy to be here with you. But I have a quick question for our producer, Steve. Hey, Steve.

Hello. Hey, have you read anything good in the New York Times recently? Oh, I believe I have. Oh, what did you see? I saw a very good feature about a one Mallory Rubin that I thoroughly enjoyed. Oh, wow. Me too. I loved that piece. This is a really good act out. Hey, Mal! Remember how you in the New York Times and it was so

cool and we're so proud of you? We love you. I love you. All of you, you're the best. And as you already know, we were on Zoom together recording Talk to Thrones when the piece dropped. And my first bit of awareness that it had come was Steve dropping a text into our group chat highlighting the line about being perpetually caffeinated. So it all tracks. I think my favorite part of that article is that they put a quote by me under a photo of you and Halo, which means that people are like, is your way to actually Halo? And like, what an honor would that be for me?

Two of the absolute most important souls in my entire life. A cherished and pampered person in your life. Anyway, hello, we're here to talk about. We're here to do what we do every week, which is share stories together that we love, the great joy of our lives. And today we are talking about House of the Dragon, episode nine, the Green Council written by Sarah Hess,

directed by Claire Kilner. Claire's back. Third episode directed this season. Penultimate episode of Hot D season one already. Cannot believe it. We're almost at the end. Shocking stuff. But before we make our way down into the child fighting pit,

we have, as always, a few quick programming reminders of the Midnight Boys. We'll be with you all tomorrow, Wednesday, to break down Andor episode seven. And then on Friday, Joe and I will be beginning our and or journeys at last. We're going to do a deep dive into episode seven. Cannot wait. We are so excited to talk about that wonderful television show.

And then on Sunday, Joe and I will be back with Chris Ryan for Talk to Thrones on the Hot D finale. No screeners for the finale. We've had an episode ready for you. The second Hot D ended every week. It's going to be a little bit later. this coming Sunday, but we will get it to you as quickly as we possibly can. Joe, how can the people follow all of that? What a tremendous question.

You have posed to me this fine Tuesday morning. All right, number one, why don't you just subscribe to the podcast? That's my number one suggestion to you. That'll solve a lot of your problems. But if for some reason that's not on the cards, why don't you follow us on social, on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok, oh, we're on Reddit, we're all over the place, Facebook, et cetera. So that's a good idea.

And then for at least a few more days longer, you can reach us at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com with your thoughts and theory. I mean, we're still getting rings of power or emails. I love them. I'm still reading them. But you can send us hot D emails for a little while longer. And actually probably forever.

I mean, I'll just keep the email. You can keep sending emails. You know, it's going to be there. I should just stick with this email. want you want to customize it for each run. No. Pobins and Dragons just feels like it encapsulates so much of the house of our essence. You know?

I agree. You know, okay. I did suggest to Mallory when we switched to Annor that we should change it to Bothinson, Sun Dragons at Gmail.com. But, uh, but, uh, yeah, I'm happy. Okay. We just decided now live on air, we're going to keep Hobbes and Dragons and Gmail.com. Sorry, that's our email address now.

That's all I have to say about that, Mallory. Send us your Raven Scrolls. We love them. Okay. final programming reminder is the same as always, which is to bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning, today's podcast will feature plot details from House of the Dragon, episode nine, the episode of television that you are here to listen to us discuss today.

All of Hot D to date is on the table. Anything that happened in Game of Thrones on the table. On the book front, we will be incorporating lore from Fire and Blood and a Song of Ice and Fire throughout the pod today as we low. for historical parallels, lore insights, context for a certain moment in the story. But anything in the future in F&B, anything on the book, look ahead front, that's all going to be in its own section at the end of the pod and you will have another spoiler warning before we get to that.

Okay. Yeah. Programming reminders dispensed. My beloved colleagues making more. blush on Zoom. I just want to say again that it is the honor of my life to be here with you. And I love making this show with you guys. It is just so incredible to me that we get to talk about these stories every week. I seriously can't believe it. It's amazing. All right, Joe, we have so much to get to today in our deep dive that we're going to get right to it. We're going to head

into the dragon pit. I'm really sad that the New York Times was not able to capture. that sound in a quote for you, maybe a caption under a photo for you, that would have been ideal. What an episode to have our deep dive section called into the dragon pit and featuring a dragon screech sound effect. My goodness.

It's like we were heading here all along. By the way, did you notice in the House of the Dragons Built Featured at Joe? This was not about the dragon pit scene. It was about the child fighting pit scene, but the children screeching and children shrieking closed captioning On the training sequence there was,

it was like being taken into the creation of our house of our soundboard. It really was. Farrell hosts, shriek. Opening credits. Yeah. We had some updates to the yielded opening credits. I'm curious, did you have a favorite,

a favorite new sigil, a favorite new bloodline, a favorite edition in any form? Like the majority of the update we get here is like, Allison and like her issue, her children and their children. And so we got sigils for Agon, for Amund, for Helena, and then for Helena's kiddos. And so I'm going to go with a good old baby Jaharis, who was born with six fingers on his left hand and six toes upon each feet, each foot.

And it's a six-fingered, six-fingered sigil for baby Jeharis. and the opening there. Folks, if you're wondering if that will be the last time that feet come up today on the House of Our Deep Dive. What else could we possibly talk about? It is not.

Tell me. Oh, bees. The Memorial Bees sting. Oh. Oh, bees. Wow. We'll carry them in our hearts and on our soundboard always.

Did you have a favorite sigil? I do have a favorite sigil. It's a tie for me between the Sapphire for Amund and the spider for Helena, but I'm actually going to give my my fave opening credit update award here to four bloodstreams coming from Vassaris and Alicent

because it is the show in the canon of the show formally acknowledging the fourth child of Vassaris and Allison. Darren, Joanna and I have been talking about this basically every week in the book reader section George R. Martin has acknowledged this recently on his blog, not a blog, that Darren has not been written out of the show,

is hanging out in Old Town and will be joining in season two. But to see it acknowledged here in the opening credit, solidifies that Darren is in the story on the show. So that's a big deal. I was thrilled to see that bloodline. I mean, it was a fly-by-night coronation, but, like, one has to hope that Otto is, like, writing to Darren to say, your dad's dead, your shitty brother's king now, come home in season two.

Is that your auto raven scroll theory for who he's scratching out omissive to? Yeah, when it comes to scratching out a missive, I think that Darren has to be top of the suspect list there. It could be his shitty older brother, though. That's, you know, because in the book, I mean, I think we can say that, like, in the book, Darren is in Old Town, and I think presumably that's where he is. It's just, it is bizarre to us that King Egon and Queen Allison have a kid who has a dragon. And Allison, as we know in this episode, is doing active dragon math. Crutching the numbers.

And we have not mentioned Darren Targaryen. Great news. You have a stream of blood moving to a slightly offset sigil away from the other three siblings. We're set. A great. Box checked. Darren is showcase. This is a normal way to watch television.

Great. Oh, boy. Well, Joe, before your personal favorite, Otto Hightower, can begin writing all of his various letters, he's got to learn that the king is dead. And so does Allison and so does everybody inside of the Red Keep. So begins our episode of television. The king's death is discovered. And it's discovered when a little.

serving boy finds Vassaris and goes to tell Talia the most important character on House of the Dragon. I have a question about this serving boy. I really love how this open,

like I love the opening of this episode. I love, we'll talk about that in a second. But I did spend the first several seconds being like, what Targary and Child am I watching right now? Is this a flashback? Like, what am I looking at? What is this? And I'm like,

oh, it's just a rando blonde child. Okay. I don't know. Like, we're on high alert for blonde children. And I was like, Darren, is that you? I don't know. You see me off. If you put that shade of blonde hair on a child, we will wonder if that child is a Targaryen.

And if you put a black hooded cloak on a character, we will wonder if it's Damon setting out for murder. Yeah. Now, a lot of people, a lot of cloak action in this episode. And like maybe this is one of Agon's many issues. And maybe with Talia, who knows? We don't know. That's a complete question mark. But Mallory had an extreme reaction over Zoom to it.

Are you dropping that theory? Oh, my. No, no, no. We're putting, I'm putting 3% behind that theory. Okay, 3%. It's not zero. It's not zero. Joe, you mentioned really loving this.

opening sequence and we agree that a big part of what made this so gripping in the opening moments of the episode was the score and the cinematography. One of the first things that you texted me about this was that there was a real light of the seven musical energy and essence to the sequence. And I really agree with the scoring and what that evoked here. And there's also this this sense of the camera moving through the keep, which part of the castle is asleep and which is waking. I always think that's interesting. There's like a Down Abbey-esque quality

to these opening moments where we see the serving staff activating, readying, and they are the first recipients of this information, and then what becomes of it? I think it's interesting to me that we see these shots

of all these important rooms, empty and dark, and like we're going to, you're going to make some excellent point later is about sort of the symbols or artifacts of power. But I love this idea. We're talking again and again and again.

In this episode, I think about that Lord Veris quote that we love. Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick, a shadow on the wall. So to see all these rooms, this small council chamber, the throne room, empty, cold, dark. What do these things mean without the belief behind them, the people in the room animated them, all of that? I thought that was like a really cool aspect of the of the opener.

Absolutely. And another thing we're going to talk a lot about today. I mean, we picked it as the opening quote for the episode is that window in the wall of your prison line and this idea of a tiny shaft of light in a dark, oppressive space and how much can really be illuminated or cast in to some sort of true awareness if the broader circumstance has not changed. so it really did set the tone nicely for that theme throughout the episode. Talia takes this news to Allison, who is sobbing.

And it seemed to me that her emotion here was very real, very sincere, and also presumably her fear is rising over what will come next. Now, we see that a lot of what does happen in the council chamber is a bit of a twist, a bit of a revelation in real time, but there is a lot of emotion. at once for Allison in this moment, even though Vissaris has been melting like a candle shedding appendages and chunks of skin for decades now,

it's still the definitive final moment of death and thus change. I love that our gal Talia has a workaround for this tell no one before she's going to be thrown in jail thing, she has this like candelabra move, right? A very one if by land, two candelabras that the king is dead move. So like she puts this candelabra on a window signaling to Masaria that the king is dead, I guess.

And I mean, I guess that goes back to your shaft of light thing. But I just, I thought that was like a really cool subtle wordless moment of like this is how Masaria finds out what happened here. Yeah. Joe, all of this shadow and light, it's like we haven't left the rings of power, after all. I mean, we're going to be talking about brothers versus brothers

very soon. Boy. Did you notice any be thrilled in this episode? I'll have to rewatch it and keep my eyes peeled. We do have some iron crowns. Isn't that the Congress crown is made of?

Allison brings this news to Otto and shares her interpretation of Viseras' final words from the sublime episode eight. I saw him last night, she says, before he told me he wished for Eagan to be king.

It is the truth. Uttered with his own lips, his last words to me, and I was the only one to hear it, and now he's dead. Here's my question for you, Joanna Robinson. Mm, that's urban. Did you expect Allison to wrestle more,

even if this was her interpretation of Vesaris's final words, which we believed that it would be, did you expect her to wrestle more with bringing this to Otto and the council, because once it's in Otto's hands, it's a rap, and I believe that Allison would understand that. It's very confusing to me because I was really, I guess I was really hoping to watch

Allison Russell with her ideas of Judy following, you know, whatever it is a, you know, to paraphrase Rainies, a man tells her to do, whether it's her father or husband or whatever, with her knowledge. that her son is a complete piece of shit and also the like the conclusion that she had come to the night before of like Reneira like this fragile little detente that she has started here with Reneira.

I was very surprised to not see any of that. She's just all in right away which maybe speaks to Rainez's questions to her about power later on and how much Allison is even aware. But I don't, I guess I don't think of it as like a, I think that would have been interesting television but I don't know that I see it as a writing flaw

because I do think it's in it works hand in hand with Allison's eagerness to sort of snuggle herself under a doctrine. Like if she can find something that is her guiding principle, that is, you know, that she's not making this decision. This is like this is her father's decision or this is what the church says we should do or this is, you know, these are the rules

and we follow them. But it is wild how this whole thing works in this episode because literally no one believes her. And her father is just simply like overjoyed that he thinks this is going to be an easier conversation with her now because he's like, great. He made it really easy for me to roll forward with this. But no one believes her at all, it seems like, to me.

And so I don't know, it's fascinating. It's pretty fast. And yeah, I think that that dissonance that is very present inside. of her, her real, the disgust that she feels toward Aagon, that was so central in last week's episode, you were no son of mine, in conflict with her strict adherence to that sense of duty, the resentment that's seeing other characters, including, of course, Renira in the eye for the eye, showdown, in her mind, not feeling as bound by that sense of duty, even though she doesn't

see the whole picture there for what duty looks like to Renera, etc. That conflict feels very true to Allison's character and of a piece with what her journey inside of this episode is, where later in her conversation with Otto, she says exactly this. You know, how would I even know what I wanted? This is what's starting to dawn on her over the course of the episode, and she's interrogating that. Not as fully as we would hope she would. Not as fully as we would hope.

Exactly, because it all still is happening under that cap of, but Aegon will become king because Viseria said so. To go back to that moment. By the fireside. Yes. When Allison is holding a dagger up to Reneer's face and she says, where is duty? Where is sacrifice? Do you think she then said trampled under your pretty feet once again because she was thinking

about her own sacrifice and her own pretty feet? Tell me. No, I genuinely do. I do. Everything will stand out differently now when we do a full season rewatch, of course, including Alice taking off her shoes with Larry. at dinner in season six. Not a scene that we will...

In episode six, not a scene that we will ever be able to watch the same way again. Okay. So after these initial conversations, we head into the small council chamber. The Green Council that gives this episode its name

commences. There are eight characters in the room. Alicent, Otto, Kristen, Sir Harold, Beesbury, Ironrod, Thailand, and Grandmaster Orwell. Otto shares the news. King is dead. I'm Rod, who we know so much about.

We'll be returning to that. I have no doubt. Otto, in sharing the news of the king's death, calls Vassaris, Vesaris the peaceful. And I was really interested. We hear this moniker, this auto-aside moniker a couple times in this episode. And I think it really serves to,

you know, we've been interrogating all season, what the truth, as Vissaris himself was too, what the truth of Vesaris's peaceful reign really was when it is setting the stage for the horrors to come, the conflict that is boiling to the fore in this episode. But it really does, hearing it still heighten the sense of what is about to be lost on the eve of war. If that sounds stressful, though,

it's not all bad, especially if you're plotting a royal coup, I just think, okay, I do want to hear more about because you just made a little like gear in up gesture. We were talking about a coup and I love that for you. I feel like you have like strong coup capabilities yourself, Malar Rubin. But I just, I think the Vesaris the Peaceful, which is not a book title. This is an auto original in the show. Show auto.

It's just been workshopping it. Yeah. But it's just such, it's such, when we talk about fire and blood, which is this unreliable narrator history of this time in Targary and lore, right? And we're constantly talking about, well, this version, that version, that version, that version, and who wrote this history and who gets to tell this story? And so the idea of calling Vassaris the peaceful, which technically he was, I suppose. But like, whereas Jeharis, like the long peaceful reign of Jeharis and Alessane, whereas Jehires and Alessane, whereas Jehires and Alisian, whereas Jehires and Alis the previous monarchs were constantly actively working to prevent war. Fasarus the fucking do nothing king.

You know what I mean? That just like does nothing to steer out of this war except for the last night of his life. And as you mentioned last week, many times, too late. Yeah. With much respect to our guy, I think Viseras the passive

would have been more fitting. But, you know, it's one more weapon of war that Otto is ultimately forging for himself because if he says over and over again to anyone who can listen, Viseras the Peaceful, it's ammo for him to then say, and this is what Viseris the peaceful wanted, I swear. And that's what he tells the group now. He says he has left us a gift. Joe, when you hear a character say a gift, do you think of Bormir or do you think of Littlefinger? Tis a gift. I don't know. We're in Rings of Power after Glow. I'm still on Team Boremer.

shares the good word. Passes along what Allison has shared with him about Viseras' final words. Now, to be clear, as we see quickly in the next few minutes of this very scene, this group, the Green Council, Otto and his allies, would have usurped the throne no matter what. They don't need this to enact their plan. The plot, the scheme, the scheme, the plot was in motion no matter what. But this does give them cover. And I was thinking back, Joe, to that great season one,

Circe, Ned Barriston, Selmy moment that pass along. The final scrawled out message from Robert, good old Bobby B. And Circe tears the paper in half. Protector of the realm, is this meant to be your shield, Lord Stark? A piece of paper. Barrison, who we'll be talking about more in a few minutes, outrage. Those were the king's words.

when is a king's word a sturdy shield that you can use to push your way through the foe and when is it a piece of paper that you can tear in half? I mean, again,

this is where does power resides where you believe it resides, right? You know what I mean? And it's like, that's what, that's what Circe gets a lot of things wrong but she gets that idea

so right. Power is power. She's constantly saying shit like this. But like, anytime a character has an important document that they need and they hand it to the villain. Usually nowadays, the villain tears it up and the character will say, you fool, don't you think I have a copy somewhere?

But like, of all the many, many dumb things that Ned Stark does, that's certainly one of them, just letting Circe get her hand on that piece of paper. What would little figures say, Joe, about the Starks, you know? Quick temper, slow minds. Love them, miss them. Here they need the King's Word in a way that is distinct. because that Sam King has been publicly uttering words for the other heir for two decades. So it is a more tangible thing that they can try to wield to their cause because Viseris'

own stated preference is the exact thing that they're using that to try to counteract. So it's a very interesting thing. Right. And we, I mean, we should say, again, as we said last week, like this whole Viseras' dying words thing, not in the book. So when the Green Council decides to do a coup, they don't even have those paper shields, right? It's just auto-wilding out, you know, and Alicent and whoever else is, you know, and Alicent is according again to who knows who wrote this history.

Well, we know, but like the men who wrote this history, Alicent is a highly evil, highly active participant in this coup. And so if you're wondering why, if you're not a book reader and you're wondering why a lot people came to this series like hating Allison. This moment, this coup puts the greens on the like, it's hardest on the high horse when you do a coup like this, especially if, you know, a gooey mess of a king isn't like gasping out dying words to you that you misinterpret, right? So, like, Allison in the show has at least that cover for herself of these words that she has willfully probably misinterpreted.

And that's all part of the show trying to make this more complicated than just a bunch of evil fucking high towers and their mad dog, Kristen Cole took the throne. They're telling a much more complicated. They're trying to tell a much more complicated story. Right. In Fireblood, it's just king,

insisted Queen Allison to the Iron Throne by rights must pass to his grace's eldest, trueborn son, etc, etc., etc. It is active leadership from Allison. They are meeting in Allison's chambers. to conduct this meeting. She is a ringleader of the queue. So for her to be surprised in this moment when Tylin says, then we may proceed now with the full assurance of his blessing on our long-laid plans. And it's like a total record scratch for Allison where she says, am I to understand that

members of the small council have been planning secretly to install my son without me. It is a softening and a big change. Did that line though, even in, because we've been, we've been trying to, the changes to Allison and the fleshing out, the softening, the adding of warmth, meaningful relationships and history with other characters. Inside of the showverse, though, did that response from Allison surprise you? Because yes, there's a difference between understanding that Otto and the High Towers wish Agon to be king and learning that they have been actively plotting to, to quote my sage and scholar, Joe, do a coup. The The fact that there's a desire inside of her camp for Agon to be king is not news to Allison.

And in fact, something that she had advocated for herself and had been prepping Agon for the You Are the Challenge moment, etc. To the point where in episode eight, when she toasts Renierra and says that she would make a fine queen, it's such a meaningful moment because it signifies a change. Well, I think I completely agree with you. It doesn't surprise me because I think it makes sense to me that Allison thinks she's in the innermost ring of power. And once again, I didn't mean to do that. But like, once again, the woman has been left out of the conversation, right? And like, once again, her father is got schemes and plus that she's not involved in. And I think that a lot of her actions in this episode come from that line read, that realization of like, oh, you've been making me.

moves without me, come watch the moves that I can make. Have you met this piece of shit Kristen Cole who works for me? Anyway, I should, I, what I've decided in this episode is that Kristen Cole is like, maybe I'm my most hated Thrones character ever, and we'll talk about why a little bit. I know, I know. I know. Crowled field. It's a high bar for him to have to leap over, but like, there's just like every time you have to look at his dumb smug face, I just want to, maybe it's because he took out my guy, B's. But we got this really interesting email from a listener named Carl, who's a not book reader.

A lot of Carl's email was a lot of Reneer's slander that I don't care to repeat, but I'll say this. Carl writes, to my eyes and understanding it's pretty obvious that Allison is a rule follower of societal norms and a victim of circumstance, constant manipulation by malevolent men. She's doing her best to survive in a world and role that she did not choose, not sure why she gets all the negative press, that clearly should be directed at her father.

And again, I think if you're just watching this show, and especially in this episode, when there were some moments earlier where you're like, oh, Otto has a pushy older brother. Like, maybe Otto is not... In this episode, there's just, like, no doubt about it. Like, Otto is a terrible piece of shit. But I think a lot of people are bringing their book reader sensibility

to their read of Allison. And how can you not, like, you know, if you're carrying a source material with you. But the show is giving us a very different read on that character. I do think, though, that just inside of the show, Allison has done things that would make viewers have their back against the wall. She demanded Luceris's eye. She charged forward with the dagger in her hand.

She made Renira feel as though she had to walk the minute after childbirth across the red keep into her chambers. That's true for all the characters across the show. they've all done, in its varying degrees and shades, certain deplorable things, and that's that moral gray that we keep talking about, that George is so centrally preoccupied with inside of this stretch of the timeline and this particular dance story. So Allison, it's not a knock on Allison or something that is specific to her. I think it's true for all the characters. I really like what you said, and I agree that the dawning realization that she's not. in that seat of decision-making power,

that Otto, who, again, is, like, gaslighting and manipulating some of the more recent episodes with this idea of, like, true partnership and realizing that she actually does have what it takes to win the game, et cetera, like to see the fallacy of that and to see the manipulation of that laid bare is an important...

The walls of her prison, right? Yeah, a really important thing for her to stare here in the face. And, you know, another thing that is, I think, also true. And Condal said this, Ryan Condal said this on the inside the episode. He said, quote, which is the thing that she's wanted, meaning Agon, to be king. But she didn't want to do it through dastardly deeds. And so that's of a piece, too, because Allison and Otto having a different idea on how to pursue this end is a very central propulsive element in this episode.

And that connects to realizing that she has not been a part of those conversations and those plans. because the reveal of what those distinctions are is something that she has to then confront in real time. Now, whether there should have been more awareness about that, we'll talk about. Yeah, I was going to read this other email from Chris later, but I think it's worth bringing up now because of what you just said.

So this is Chris's take on, like, the greens versus the blacks and why the greens rub them the wrong way, right? After watching the Green Council, I think my perception of the blacks is our heroes and the Greens is our villains. boils down to a contrast in proclaimed virtues. Allison and her good boy, Kristen, that fucker, sit upon the high horse of virtue and faith.

Otto, too, claims to always be doing things for the greater good, though he may be less religious about it. What has been on display from the Greens, however, is dishonor and faithlessness time and again. Faith to me is measured by the choices we make and how those choices align with our proclaimed morals. Alicent, Kristen, and Otto continue to set aside what they've claimed to be right.

in order to do what they now believe to be necessary. That, to me, is the ultimate villainy. Allison does aghast her Reneer's sexuality, but she lets that skis ball Laris get off onto her feet for more information I onto is not the proposition I meant to use there. So Kristen says all women are the image of the mother but calls Reneer as C-word because she broke his psycho heart a decade ago. Autoglyphily uses the white worm to further his machinations,

but then acts holier than now during their meeting, as he calls her network a stinking onion. More basically, the whole plot of the Greens is based on doing something they know is wrong by installing Egon as king in order to do what they think is necessary for the greater good, that is villainy. And the email goes on to say

the blacks by contrast, though they have done a lot of shitty things, are never, ever dishonest with themselves or others about their own moral compass and, like, their own deeds. If you ask Damon, like, all...

I'll say we're all capable of depravity. Usually he'll not say anything because that's the Damon M.O. He'll lean against the door. Yeah. Or if you know, you ask him if he killed his wife, he might be like, I don't know what you're talking about. But like, for the most part, Damon will fess up to his shit, right? And it's this like just blatant hypocrisy roiling off of Otto and Allison and Kristen, etc. That drives me up the walls.

So, yeah. I know something else drove you up the wall. And it was seeing what Kristen did to your beloved Lyman Beesbury. It's Bees time, baby, Joe. It is Bees time. Incredible sequence. We've been waiting for this. He, in essence, calls them all liars and murderers.

And it's honestly great. Steve, let's hear it. I am six and 70 years old. I have known Vissaris longer than any who sit at the table, and I will not believe that he said this on his deathbed alone with only the boy's mother as a

witness. This is seizure. It is theft. It is treason, at the least. Mind your tongue, Lyman. Incredible. Joe, take us through what happens. Well, Kristen, much like Damon

last week, sneaks up behind someone and then compromises the structural integrity of their head. Yeah, he, Kristen, forces Lyman down in his seat, and this immediately leads to Lyman getting his head caved in

by his small council ball, which is a bummer. It's not a bummer for people who have been tracking how many Joanna Robinson theories are correct across this season, though. Because you call this in episode one. The second you saw those small balls, in part because,

and you should, take us through this, the nature of how Beesbury died is a mystery in fire and blood. So in fire and blood, there's three possibilities for what happened at Beesbury. One is that he gets pushed out a window by his Kristen Cole. Two, in the black cells to molder and die there. Or three, gets his throat slit by Kristen Cole. This, again, if we're talking about softening and whitewashing, this is actually like the show doing Kristen Cole a favor because he didn't seem to mean to kill Lyme and Beesbury.

he's just trying to get him to sit down real hard. But like, don't put your hands on a 76-year-old man like that, Kristen Cole. Anyway, he didn't mean to kill him, but he died. I feel like there should have been a bit more of a reaction to this, like, venerated member of the small council who just proceeds to bleed out on the table for the rest of the sequence. But yeah, I mean, like, that's harrowing when they, when Otto won't let them remove the body because nobody can, he says nobody can leave the chamber. just have to sit there with Beesbury's draining corpse. Something I love about the unreliable narrator aspect of Fire and Blood is that, you know, we have at the end of that clip that Steve just played, we have Orwell, like, telling Beesbury

to, you know, mind his tongue, right? In Fire and Blood, Orwell tries to take credit for what Beesbury does here. Like Orwell says that he's the one who stood up in the face of treason. and the narrator of Fire and Blood is like, but as we can see about what happened next, we're pretty sure that that's not the case because only one person died in that room and it was Lyman Beesbury.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I get a lot of things wrong, including within this episode, but I will say that, and you know I lost faith, Mallory. You did. The final moment. There was a shot in the trailer last week

of Lyman just dead on the table. Like, if you were looking at that trailer, Beesbury's just dead on the table with a puddle of blood around his head. And I was like, wow, they just put it in the trailer. But I was like, no way a small ball did that. Like, he probably got his throat slit. And then you were like, hold fast.

Hold true. And right through the squishy temple of our guy bees. It is, of course, not Kristen Cole's first rage murder. And this guy. Let's talk about the, Sir Kristen versus Sir Harold of it all for a moment here. because Sir Harold Westerling's visible dislike and mistrust of Kristen Cole has been apparent to us for a few episodes. We've talked about some of these glances, some of these moments. Not a surprise, of course, to see him draw his sword and challenge Kristen in the face of this murder.

Alicent is also visibly appalled, but again, this, not only does this does not stop her from keeping Kristen close, he uses here her honor as his justification for what he does again. And then later, we'll talk about this more when we get to the scene, she uses their closeness and the affection that he feels for her to send him out on the Agon hunt. So she seems so, like, weary, too. She's like, you know, it's like when your toddler fills a juice. I keep trusting you and you keep just murdering people. Yeah.

She's like, no, Kristen, that's not what happened. It wasn't, okay. I think it's really interesting. We talked about this a little bit on Talk the Thrones, but this idea of like Allison having these like various, I'm going to call them Monsters on a leash, that she has not a firm control of. We've seen this already with Laris where she's like,

the strong family sure would be nice if I didn't have to deal with them. And he's like, oh, my brother and my. dad, no problem, my queen, I have burnt them for you. And she's like, that's not what I meant. You know what I mean? And so Kristen doing this here, like when she's amping him up on, on this idea of chivalry and honor and how they have to cleave to each other and all the sort of stuff like that. And then he does this. And she's like, that's not what I meant. And so I just think it's interesting to think about, because you have to think about, like, Taiwan and and what monsters did they have on a leash when they were doing, you know, their dastardly deeds.

And they have, you know, the mountain is the main one who becomes Sir Robert Strong for Searcy, right? But, like, Taiwan has the mountain doing all kinds of hideous shit all around the countryside and shit that he probably would not approve of, but he's just sort of like, well, you know, needs must, right? And then Khyburn also, you know, or, again, for Surcy, the high sparrow. I don't think of the high sparrow necessarily

as a monster of leash, but like something that she thought she could control. Yeah. That she's not a control over. Yeah. The humphrey. The hubris of that.

Joffrey, you know what I mean? Like immediately. Hard to keep a dog on a leash when you've put a crown on its head, right? Yeah. Immediately Joffrey takes Ned Stark's head, which is not at all what Cursi wanted to do.

Right? And so that's, you know, we will talk about that again because, you know, Allison's crowning a rapist king, you know? Like that's what she's doing, thinking that she can put him on a leash along with Laris and Kristen,

but she does not have clear control over these people. I'm interested to talk about that more in the context of each of those relationships and characters, but like it's interesting because that, oh, that's not what I meant. That's not what I wanted response is really something you can only convincingly do once. You know, so when the, the feet go up on the chaise. And again, there's a lot of complexity in that scene that we will

break down in detail. But that's happening in the context of knowing what Laris means when he's saying, I can take out the queen and the network will fall. He's got the one arson move, folks. That's it. Because she's like, oh, fire again, my lord. How could you? You know, but I just think it's interesting because Allison's, Allison is trying to fumble her way through. power. And, you know, yeah, again, we'll talk about her understandings, her limited understandings of power. But I just think Kristen and Laris and, you know, at the end of this episode, Agon, is her, like, I can, I can puppet master this. And I'm like, your puppets are not doing well. They're slicing people's heads open and also their own strings. Absolutely.

Yeah. Harold doesn't want to be a part of this puppet act, Joe. He defecive. facts from the Kingsguard, all this talk about Hodoa can leave the room. He gets to go. Fascinating. He refuses the mission to Dragonstone. We will talk about the specific, let's kill Renira aspect of this in a second regarding Otto and Alicent. We were both thinking of Barristan Selmy here and his ouster from the Kingsguard in Thrones. Now, of course, he is kicked out of the Kingsguard, whereas Harold is choosing to leave refusing the task at hand. There are a lot of interesting things to parse here. One of which is, are the white cloaks just like the flags in a flag football game? That pulled right off. I mean, it just snapped right off. I feel like it should be harder to get the white cloak off. What do you think?

I really agree. You have to think about Jamie taking his off, though he only had one hand to do it. But that's like one of the most dramatic moments is like him taking his white cloak off. We already talked on Talk the Thrones about Barris's. and so I'll be throwing his sword at the feet of the king and all this sort of like, yeah, I feel like he could have done something more dramatic. But the question is, like, is he actually quitting? He says, get me a king, and I'll do what the king says.

But until there's the king, I don't take your orders. So what do you think? Like, will he just hang out and wait? Will he go join Renera and the blacks? Because obviously his proximity to Rainier and affection for her dates back to the beginning of the series when he was her protector in the old. opening episodes before he became Lord Commander and she added Kristen to the Kings card. And we should say Sir Harold's story is drastically off the book path. So we genuinely do not know. We don't know.

What's your guess? I like the idea of him going to Reneura, but also like what if we never see Graham McTavish again? Like, I don't know. I refuse to accept that outcome. Yeah. Refuse to accept it. Need him to say gods be good in his lovely Scottish Jackson at least 75 more times on this television program. Bill Patterson's also Scottish. Like Beesbury himself. Like shout out to the Scots in this episode, taking the moral high ground in the small council room.

I just don't know. I actually don't know what Otto's plan is exactly here. Because last time you tried to go to Dragonstone facing down only one dragon, how did that work out for him, right? Not tremendously well. So he's like, go take some men to get Reneira and David from Dragonstone. Like Harold has the moral high ground here, but also is he not thinking that's a suicide mission? Like, how are they going to go get them from Dragonstone?

But I also have to imagine that Otto thinking that he has the, you know, will have a king by the time they do this power. move here that he has to again be thinking about that last time he went to Dragonstone for Damon and how much he fucking hates Damon, you know? So it's interesting. This question of

going to find Renira this farcical notion of imprisonment which Allison calls out immediately, you mean to kill them realizing what Otto's intent actually is and Orwell says a living challenger invites battle in bloodshed he is agreeing with the hand her father's read on the situation here.

And this was fascinating for a couple different reasons. One, it opens up this Allison versus Otto divide inside of this episode further. But it also is that you are the challenge idea that Otto had been drilling into Allison and doctrinating her with for years, that she then passes along to Agon and drills into him. she had been prepped to expect that from the other side, from Rainira. That was the threat that always loomed. And it's in front of her unfolding in real time now, the truth of those words are coming to light from her side.

Her side is the one showing that there will be no mercy, that everybody has to be eliminated to avoid that fallout. And of course, Allison doesn't want Renira dead. but this gets back to that question of what she thought would happen once this information about Agon, this Agon bomb was out there in the world. What did she think her father would do? She's the one who says,

Reneira and Damon are never going to bend the knee. It's not going to happen. And even later, when she goes to Otto and says to him, we're going to take them terms that they can accept. What form does that take? She knows and is saying aloud. that they will not accept this outcome. So war is inevitable,

which is, of course, what everybody has been saying the whole time, but the characters are the ones. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy of another sort because the characters are the ones who are ensuring that outcome. I loved Olivia Cook's delivery of... She is so good. She will never bend the knee, normal, Damon, which you know.

And her delivery of which you know, which is just like, let me strip back your cover of niceties, your hypocrisy here. let's just expose it. When he says, and when he says, the king wouldn't wish for any end savoury, she says,

but the king did not wish for the murder of his daughter. He loved her. I will not have you deny this. Like, so again, some more softening of book Allison here in that, like, her affection for Rainira

is evident in her desire to protect Ranira. Like that childhood companionship, the spark that we saw, you know, catching fire in last week's episode again. Like, that's part of all of this. But again, I think it's also this

a power thing of like, please don't sit here and try, don't try to patronize me with your nice version of your plan. Like if I'm in the inner circle, I'm in the inner circle. And the plan is to murder Damon and Ramira. There's no sanitizing what's happening here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the power dynamic is also present when Thailand says, okay, well, what would you suggest then as she's challenging this? And there's silence. And again, that connects to what she herself will say later about actually not having lived

a life where she got to really focus on her own desires and preferences. But in the mere seconds there, Otto immediately launches into, this is what we will do next. And it's again revealing just the absolute farcical nature of this idea of partnership. the one who wants control and she is another pawn for him to try to achieve it. What did you think, Joe, of the overall effectiveness of this scene? I thought it was really tremendous, but if I'm being really honest with you, I could have taken half an episode in this room. I felt, first of all, I really wish we knew some of these people in the room a bit better, like Thailand or while Iron rod.

Even Beesbury. Like, we've been hype in Bees. But he's mostly a meme at this point than he is a character. Yeah, given the outsized impact that those characters have on the events to come, having more time with them previously would have helped. It would be really nice. And then I went, like, it's silly to Tuesday morning quarterback. I know it's Monday morning, but it's Tuesday, actually.

So I'm just, I just want to let you know. I'm not getting that phrase wrong. A show, but like I'm imagining an episode where they're, they are. are they do stayed locked in those rooms, but they send their people out to try to get Agon, and they're all in the room the whole time with each other, like tensely trying to negotiate this out. Meanwhile, Kristen and Amon and the Cargall, everyone's favorite characters, Eric and Arick, are out racing to try to grab Aigon first. Like, the Green Council, them all together locked in a room, these powerful people,

yeah, there's a lot of really juicy tension that I think we could have. mind for even more of the episode. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. We could have stayed in there for ages. And, you know, they do. It's a longer stretch of scheming and Viseras's corpse rotting. I know.

Vesaris's corpse should have gotten, like, really gooey, is my point. I agree with you that division among the greens, the descent inside of what should be one rank, is such a rich narrative vein to mind. and these characters, it shouldn't be an easy thing to usurp the throne. It shouldn't be an easy thing to set into motion this course of events

and those little degrees of differences not to say that murdering Reneer on Damon and their entire family is a degree of difference, though it kind of is, honestly, inside of this episode because Allison and Otto are working toward the same goal,

which is crown Agon as king, coronate Agon, inside of this episode, And so it is about those distinctions in approach, in intention, in the exact manifestation of that outcome. And so that division, that disagreement is fascinating and delicious. And we could have spent even more time just luxuriating. And I will just say anecdotally, I've heard from more casual watchers that they were confused at what the tension is. Like, what is the difference between auto grabbing Agon and Allison grabbing Agon? So I think spending a little bit more time understanding like,

what's at stake here would have been helpful for the episode. And yeah, I mean, like, we all agree that we don't really know Iron Rod and, like, we don't know Thailand as well as we know Jason Lannister or like, whatever. But we know Otto and Allison so we know some juicy stuff with them later, but like, you know, just give me a whole episode with those two in a room. And that's kind of fascinating to me. And the whole episode of Allison screaming threats about the wall at Iron Rod. One more word, I will have you move from the chamber and send to the wall. I was like, yeah, bitch. She's like, my sworn Kingsguard just murdered a septuagenarian on a whim.

So keep talking. All right, Rod. And that's a question of power, right? It's a numbers game and a violence game, right? Otto has the numbers in the room. Allison's got the guy that will crunch your head on a marble. You know what I mean? like where does power reside?

She's the one with the mad dog on the leash. So it's kind of interesting to me. Bye bees. Bye bees. We'll miss you and we'll mourn you. That mad dog on the leash, Kristen Cole is one of the characters involved in this plot. And here the plot to find Agon begins.

Allison Tenado first, before they execute their separate, their separate missions here. They both go to Helena's chambers in search of Agon. Joe, just a moment here for Bug Corner because Helena's needlepoint is the spider and the kids appear to be playing with bug toys.

Were you delighted? There's so much bug language in this episode, right? Masari says something like, what is it? Waspona fruit? Waspun fruit. And, you know, Laris is talking about spiders and weaving and queen bees and his firefly. There's just like bugs, bugs everywhere all over.

Bugs abound. Yeah, bugs abound. Helena is also, as usual, dropping pearls of wisdom on the human condition. It is our fate, she says. I think to crave always what is given to another. If one possesses a thing, the other will take it away. More prophetic words from her. And inside of the scene, she repeats as well, the beast beneath the board's prophecy,

she says it here to Allison, much more urgency behind the words this time than there was at the dinner. She's more frantic, yeah. In episode eight, now we think we see why at the end of this episode with the Rainy's sequence. So I think we both agree there are also other interpretations for that prophecy. Still, we'll talk about a couple of them today. What did you make of Allison reaching over to try to comfort Helena when she is uttering the beast beneath the board's prophecy here?

Because it seems to me like nobody in the family recognizes that Helena is a dreamer. Oh, not at all. Zero percent. But again, her, like, her prophecies are so, like, kind of abstract. And she's such, like, with love and respect, odd little duckling outside of that, that I think that, you know, they just think she's addled, you know? And again, if Fasarice had bothered to spend literally any time with his children, maybe he would have been delighted to find that Helena is a dreamer.

But big dreamer guy, he definitely would have been like, oh, wow. I'm trying to understand the show's own internal because, again, this is a show edition, Helena, as far as we know in the book, is not a dreamer, right? It's a fun little thing that they've added to the show. I'm trying to understand the internal rules of it within the show. Like, if we want to believe that Rainey's busting out of the floor of the dragon pit is the fulfillment of the beast beneath the boards, a perfectly reasonable, you know, conclusion.

Then that means that the payoff of her prophecies are usually like an episode or two later. As the Amund Dragon I prophecy was. So, you know, as we as book readers, and we'll talk about this in the book section, but as we try to, like, project what the payoff might be, now again, there are other interpretations of this that are very, very valid.

But, you know, going forward, my Helena Prophecy Math is going to be like, can I see this paying off in two episodes so that more casual watchers could be like, oh my God, is the thing that Alina said an episode ago, you know, something like that. And it can also be true that there's more than one interpretation not only to discuss about this one here,

but in general that holds for her words and that some of them are in the near term and some of them are in the long term. And that the characters... Yeah, exactly. That's part of why I want the characters in the show to be paying attention to those words along with us as viewers,

because I think characters responding to prophecy is always so in true. And I really need a full Amen to Helena scene. Amon would be my money would be on Aman to be the one to say, huh, I'm listening. Yeah. Should we be writing down literally everything Helena says all the time? Maybe. Amon will be part of one of the Agon Quest teams. But the first one is assigned from Otto here.

He pieces out of Helena's Chambers and he goes to find Sir Eric. Eric, Eric, tells him to find Agon, take only his brother, Eric, with an A, ditch the white cloaks, bring Agon to him and him alone. He says, none can know who you are, what you seek, including the queen. I love this moment where Eric, where he's like, where's AGO. And Eric says, I believe me, well, he's like, listen, this fucker is giving me this lip always. And he says, I believe you may have left the keep secretly gone into the city, which is yet another Agon-Ran-Ran comp. We've gotten a bunch of those leading up. We'll get more in this episode.

But I like that idea that, like, you know, he's discovered. I mean, I don't think his, I don't think Uncle Damon is the one who let him know about it. But it feels like Agon knows about some of the secret passages in the Red Keep. Absolutely. And Eric does too, because he'll use one to take Renice out of the castle later in the episode. Okay, Joanna, it's time to perform a public service. Please take us through some quick and handy tips for how to tell the Cargall twins apart. Okay, we got this hilarious email, by the way. I'm not going to read the this email we got, but this hilarious email where this one of our lovely

listeners was like, she was like, which of the twins does this, that, that, that, and the other thing. And I was like, oh, that's all Eric. So, okay. Yeah. Eric is Agon's Sworn Shield, right? He's the one who brings the news to Allison last week about poor Diana and her state of affairs. He's the one that Otto comes to talk to right here. He's the one who was constantly critiquing Aagon all episode.

He's the one who busts Rainies out of her little prison cell, right? He's the one who doesn't help his brother in the fight. Weird move. Genuinely weird. And despite the fact that they're both sporting identical low buns and near identical cloaks, though his has like, you know, he wears his a little bit more open, there's piping, the cloak trim on it. Sure, some differences. But I've heard from a lot of people that actually the way that they're able to tell them apart is by their mustaches.

Now, I guess am apparently mustache slash beard blind. But everyone's like, obviously the difference is in the facial hair. So let me go down this email we got. from a listener named Benoit. I hope it's Benoit Blanc, but I don't think it is. Anyway, Benoit wrote. You probably heard or read it by now. The twins cargo have somewhat distinct mustaches.

Being French, I instantly thought about DuPont and DuPont or Thompson and Thompson from the Tenten comic books. DuPont with a D has a straight mustache. It looks like a D. DuPont with a T has the curly mustache. In Hot D, it appears of the one with the one with the one with a little. the curly stash, like every bad guy twirling his facial hair before him, is with the greens, and the straight one is with the blacks, the alleged good guys.

It's probably just a visual coincidence, detail to differentiate the twins, but I found it funny. I am a huge Tintin fan. Love Tintin Comics. All of my tightly wound cargo twin frustration that I felt over the weekend that Mallory was on the receiving end of, as I said, so many text messages being like, why would we do they make these guys so hard to tell apart has dissipated like a fine sea mist now that I consider it to be a Thompson and Thompson. Okay.

You're all in. Wonderful. Wow. Wow. That was beautiful. What a journey. Generally, just give one of them a ponytail. I don't know.

Have his hair down. You noted this in our in our text. but given the hat that we will see on Kristen Cole, it's even more befuddling that we couldn't just get a similar hat on either Eric or Eric. A hat. That's all we need. Why are Kristen and Eamon dressed like absolute psychopaths in their hats and hoods and eyepatches? And we don't need any help distinguishing those two. And they're like, put Eric in the mud-colored cloak.

an aric in the done-colored cloak. And I'm like, what are we doing here? I will say, once you lock in on Eric is the one who's been closer to Agon and understands what a piece of shit he is. And then Eric is the one who's constantly saying, look at what a piece of shit he is and then bouncing. Then it becomes possible to track. But yes, that requires a very attentive approach.

And Eric is, of course, when he's the one who tackles Agon. He's the one who fights. Eric with an A. Eric, excuse me. Are Arrick. That's on George, that part. Eric with an A is the one who tackles Agon, fights Kristen, stays put, says we swore about, etc. Okay.

Well, I will just say my tightly woundiness around this actually has nothing to do with me because we've read the book. So we know which way Eric's going and which way Eric's going. But I'm just thinking of people trying to watch this episode. and understand what's going on, you know what I mean? Yeah, and this is what I was, one of the things that I was hinting at in the very quick opening snapshot, with much respect to the Cargall twins

who seem like, you know, perfectly interesting and compelling characters, actually, given the different choices that they make, not only inside of the brotherhood of the Kingsguard, but the literal brotherhood of these two being twins, that's interesting to me. I, if this had been like an episode, six or seven, I would have been riveted trying to come to terms with the different choices

that they were making for a lot of the pen ultimate episode to rest on this quest involving characters that we've spent like a total of two minutes with. I think is a strange choice that it's one that's compounded by the fact that there's a lot of weight, who am I watching, who's saying what, where's the piping on the cloak now? The other team that's hunting Agon is, as you noted, we're more familiar with them. Yes. More familiar to to us, Allison sends Kristen, begrudgingly sends Amen as well. Amid is like, Eric knows what Agon is up to. I do as well. Let me go. Kristen gives the little nod of agreement there.

Let's talk for a minute about the nature of Allison's appeal to Kristen here, calling on his loyalty, saying everything you feel for me as your queen. And Kristen saying, I will not fail you. What do you make of this moment and this vibe? I love that. What I love about this is that we get a payoff. Because, you know, as I already mentioned, we had that moment in episode six after he drops a C-bomb about Reneera. And she's like, so Kristen, we must cleave to each other, you know, as the moral outposts. And, like, we saw that we didn't really understand how much that's a manipulation tactic from Allison or a control tactic from Alicent. Similarly, we saw Allison take our shoes off to get Kung Fu.

with Laris and we did not understand what that was until this episode. But we got this great email from, I think it's Anise, is how you pronounce this name. Steve, someday I will not be surprised when you do that, but it's not this day. But it is not this day. It is not this day. River Coil in shock. Annie's writes, I'm no expert, but Allison and Kristen are giving me fucked up one of your Lancelot vibes, and I like it.

not because it's a wholesome thing, but because it's showing a darker side to it than usually comes to mine. Yes, there are ramifications for Guinephir and Lancelot's affair, but how many people even remember what they were? It's pretty dark, but I think most people have a pretty saccharine version of it in mind.

Lots of hearts emojis, no substance. I'm excited, possibly nervous, about how this situation will play out when Kristen gains more power. So much of the tension in these relationships and stories exist because her social class makes her more powerful than he is, even though she's a woman. Making the relationship take on a romantic conversation

ensures that she never forgets that while she may be queen, she's a sexualized woman and he is stronger, et cetera, and that she shouldn't forget it. Kristen is such a vile piece of work that I have no doubt he'll make things uncomfortable for her if he gets the chance, probably not physically. So yeah, I love this twisted chivalric romance thing

that they're doing here with Kristen and Alice, which again is a bit different from what we, get in the books. But I think especially like when we think about how things all went so sour with Kristen and Reneer and how much of that was was anchored in Kristen's sort of, you know, twisted chivalric view of her, how he constantly called Reneer Princess. Oh, don't look, princess. Come with me, princess, all this sort of thing. And Allison's like, oh, I'm going to give him, you know, the princess of his dreams that he can never touch. Because again, that's what chivalric love is. It's Jora and DeNaris, right? Like, you can never touch your queen, but you are her, you know,

constant most closest companion. What's wild to me is that Kristen, as we learned on the trip back from Driftmark does not know that he's not the only guy in Allison's life that Laris is also involved. So I'm really interested to see what happens if Chris never finds out about Laris. Same. That his beautiful, pristine queen is rolling her stockings down for another man. Very interesting to me. Given the amount of time because of the shoes coming off in the dinner in episode six that this has presumably been going on, it does seem inevitable that Kristen will walk in on this

or discover this at some point in the future. How is he not already? Does he not sleep standing up? outside of her door like he did for Rainira? I have questions. Oh, boy. It's a great email. And I think, you know, we talked at length at the time about Kristen's really twisted pitch to Reneira, hinging so fully on this desire and need, this really compulsive need to preserve

his vow and rescue this soiled vow. And to see like that inverse. for him and his relationship with Allison, that that relationship is something that allows him to tell himself he is upholding an honorable life. That he is living for a vow and for an oath is so fascinating.

As he beats the face off of men and slams people's heads into, you know, small balls. Not the most self-aware character as a couple moments of this episode will remind us. I hate this guy. This episode is brought to by Boris What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli?

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We've got two teams. We've got Team Green and Team Black in House of the Dragon. Inside of this episode, inside of Team Green, we have Team Auto, Team Allison, on the clock to try to find Agon. Condal in the inside of the episode described this as, as a, quote, real kind of Hitchcockian suspense film. They talked a lot about the pacing and this race against the clock

as this like thriller pulse across the episode. We have, I think, a couple competing truths here, for me at least. On the one hand, we talked about this a bit on Talk of the Thrones. We've got this Renly idea voiced in season one of Game of Thrones, protects with the realm or no, he who holds the king holds the kingdom.

And I think there is truth and validity to this idea that whichever one of them gets Agon in their company and under their wing and under their control is connects to what you've been saying all episode about power and control in the specific way in which that manifests and the nuance and the subtlety, right? That it's not just about wanting the same outcome. It's about the way that that takes shape and unfolds. But when Allison says to Kristen, Agon must be fair. and he must be brought to me.

The very fate of the seven kingdoms depends on it. Like, do you think this episode did a good enough job of showing us why that was true? Which we've already talked about. Like, I just, I think that they really needed to underline what felt like the urgent stake here. And, like, I don't, I don't quite, I mean, like, so we know what happens at the end, right? Is that T. Mileson wins. Shout out the hats in the hoods.

They win, right? And she installs Kristen Cole as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. What could go wrong, as you say. So it seems to me to be a race to who controls the Kingsguard in that aspect, right? Well, and Agon too, right? Because she says to him, like, your grandfather's going to tell you to kill Rodera. Don't listen to him. Are they that dumb that they're like, well, the first person to have a conversation with him?

He's not even paying attention to what she's saying in that conversation. Man in black on lost rules. Like the first, don't let him speak to you, right? Like the first person who talks to him on the way of the coronation gets to run the agenda, to me, it feels a little bit irrational that it comes down to the Kingsguard, right? Because Harold says, I'm the Lord Commander of the Kings guard. I recognize no authority but the Kings and until there is one, I have no place here. Right.

So get me a king and then get me some things that you need me to do. I don't know what Otto's plan was because Allison very smartly grabs, gets egg on puts her med dog Chris and Cole the head of the Kings Guard, right?

That's a power move for her. I don't know who ought to cause like, I don't think Harold, I don't think if Otto have been like, okay, we found the rapist in the city. He's king now, Harold. Come back and take some orders. Like, I,

so who is, who is Otto going to put in charge of, But they think about that, that gets back to that larger point you're making, which I think is a great one, that they think about power differently. Because for auto power takes shape in making those lords bend the knee in the throne room and writing out that that Ravens scroll to whomever he's sending that to. That's power for him is the control from the shadows. And that's a different thing from wielding a sword actively in the streets with the Kingsguard. And yeah, it's going to be an interesting thing to track not only inside of the Greens, but across the different camps. It's such, I mean, actually, I'll say this.

I'll say this for the day. Okay. Ooh, a tease. Ooh, a tease. Well, let's go down into the chase for Agon in a bit more detail here because, boy, there's a lot of interesting stuff to talk about here. To the Street of Silk, Joe, with Amond and Kristen. A moment to talk about the costumes and the VFX. Yeah.

Okay. So remember when Renira wore a slouch of Beanie into the Street of Silk? And we're like, that's, that's pretty. Yeah. That's pretty funny. Kristen puts on this dumb hat. Wait, unless, no, never mind. Our pal Chris Ryan said that he could see him off on that hat.

We were retracted. I'll talk about the VFX instead. We have praised to the high heaven the set that they built for the Red Keep. It's incredible. It's huge. It's intricate. They have all these rooms that attached to one another. If you watch any of the behind the scenes is pretty incredible.

However, when they go down into the streets of Kings Landing, a lot of these overhead shots and a lot of the shots of the dragon pit and all this sort of stuff just looks like real, kind of crummy VFX to me. And I don't know why it doesn't look better. You know, like once it's on the street level and they're in the set, like it's okay, but some of these overhead shots that they're trying to do, like the dragons look phenomenal, I think. But some of these building shots, I'm like, just take a drone and go. Oge de Brovnik and get me some B-roll of, like, Croatia, please. That's first I'm going to ask you, do you think with the overhead shots of Kings Landing in

particular, it's just that we have such a clear vision in our minds from O.G. Thrones of what that looks like. It just feels different. It's that negative interference. But it's also, like, you know, you mentioned that great Renley line and there's a lot of, like, Renly and Stan, you know, I think because we spent a lot of our Rings of Power finale talking about Borrome and Faramie, I think thinking about Renli and Stanis Barathean in this conversation here especially has been really interesting to me. So I went and rewatch that scene, season two, I think it's episode four, of them sort of treating on a hillside. It's just like they went to some grassy hillside, and it's literally like 10 guys on horses. And that's it. A ton of wind.

Yeah, a lot of wind. A lot of wind. Carrius Van Houghton is like well cloaked, so her hair is fly all over the place. And it's tremendously effective. You know what I mean? Because it just feels like, but it's just, I mean, it's beautifully written, but it's just enacted. But it also just feels like so real and they're not trying to make it larger than it is. And I don't know.

I just think that like the streets of Kingsland. Anyway, I feel like I'm drowning and nitpicking. There's a lot I liked in this episode. But it wasn't Kristen's hat. was one of the things that you liked when Amid gave us an insight into what kind of brother Agon is by saying by regaling us with tales of their

trip to the brothel, this 13th name day. Quote, he said time to get it wet. Do you think that's drawing parallels between Damon's sexual you know, challenges

that he had in the first few episodes and like whatever it is, Amid is grappling with. here. Because when that older woman says to him, like, my, have you grown? And he goes, he goes literally like, hmm. Like, such a, like, I mean, you know, he was 13 and his brother

took him to a brothel. And like, you know, if you think about Aeman, think about him in his younger guys, because that would be closer to who he was when he was, like, taking his brothel by his shitty brother. I don't imagine this had a tremendously great impact on him.

And I'm, you know, it's interesting. that Agon would be making him feel like shit about it like he was with the pink dread, right? And it's interesting that Amon is unmarried, right? Indeed. What did you make of Kristen's reply here? You know, I feel. Tell me what he said, Mallory Rubin. Every woman is an image of the mother to be spoken of with reverence.

This is amazing. Absolutely. The self-delusion from Sir Kristen Cole, a truly remarkable stuff. This also, I loved the way that this surfaced for both Kristen and Amund later in their adventure when Amon says that they can't find Agon because they're good men who are incapable of depravity. That was genuinely iconic given what these characters have done

and are capable of. They lie to themselves. It connects to what you said earlier. Yeah, and it's interesting because, like, it's a nice indication. that as Allison has gotten more religious, which we talked about last week's episode, you know, makes sense that Kristen would start, you know,

spouting more religious. So every woman is an image of the mother. We should say, like, mother is like capital M. Mother. Like, this is one of the gods of the seven. So he's talking, you know, some real, real cool, cool words from Kristen Seward-Cole here. Love it. We get, in addition to that fascinating exchange,

a lot of palpable second son's energy from both of these characters. Steve, can we get this clip? Here I am trawling the city, ever the good soldier, in search of a waste rule who's never taken half an interest in his birthright. Desire the younger brother who studies history and philosophy, a desire who trains with the sword, who rides the largest dragon in the world, desire who should be...

I know what it is to toil for what others are freely given. I got to say, you and Mitchell, I think he's fantastic as Amon. It's amazing. All of his like, mm-hmm, like very, it's a very Damon sort of thing. He talks more than Damon does, but like when he does a lot of like terse nods and like, hmm, he's processing. Yeah, I mean, what did you think of this, Chris and Damon bonding moment? I think that in general their relationship is an important one as you'll chat about more in a second here. The, you know, Amen is a literal second son.

Kristen has that I had to forge my own path and really work for it. Second son's vibe. And this is something that we've been talking about. The Corliss definition of second sons, the theoretical second son. Right. Like this is something that we've been talking about regularly and in a recurring fashion since that Coralus Damon conversation in the second episode of this season. And I really love this because it connects so many of the.

the different characters who are central in the story, whether or not they're actually second sons or sons at all. It also connects to Alicent and Reneera and these characters who have to fight to forge that path and take the thing they want because it is not just handed to them the way that the crown of the conqueror Blackfire are about to be handed to Agon. So this is just such an important motivator for so many of the central players in this story. And I think, I mean, we don't know a ton. Chris Ryan is constantly asking us,

what did we miss about a character and a time jump sort of thing? And like with Amund, the best that you and I could come up with is like there's just like one sentence, but part of that sentence is that he trained with Kristen Cole. So we have to think and, you know,

how did we first meet this version of Aman was training with Kristen? So we have to think about the ways in which certainly absentee dad Vassaris is not raising Aymand. So is Kristen Cole despite his agelessness, the closest thing Eamon has, to a father figure. What a genuinely terrifying thought?

We got this really interesting email from Jason. We got it last week. But I thought it was interesting to bring up here. Jason wrote, after watching Aman's strong boy speech, I couldn't help but note the parallels between Aman and Kristen Cole. Kristen saying Harwin would have would only show devotes. like that to a cousin, a brother, a son. Harwin then jumps to attack Cole.

This plays out nearly the same when Amon says, each of them handsome, wise, strong. And then Jay, son of Harwin, lets me real, jumps to attack Amon. Seems like the show is telling us Kristen as a father figure, too, at least Amon. And I think that's right. Like we see both of the boys when they're younger training with Kristen,

but we know that Agan's not keeping up with his training. And it's really just Amen, who is like constantly, we have to imagine with Kristen and the training yard. Right. You know. I love that. And I think that one of the many reasons that that's terrifying is because Kristen, as his frankly routine murdering for reveals doesn't believe that he is bound by the rules, but then constantly spouts off about the vows and the duty and the honor that guide him. And I think it's a little bit of a piece with Amon revealing that he thinks he's next in line. He says his secrets are his own of Agon.

He's welcome to them. I am next in line to the throne. Should they come looking for me, I intend to be found. It's the real Prince Harry, Sinament Prince Energy, kind of forgot about his nieces and nephew. Right. Amid is not next in line because Agon and Helena have kids. It reminds me a little bit of the Hobart Hightower, second of his name, baby Agon, cheer, and really getting ahead of what is proper or actually true at the time.

Like, this is a real Magor the cruel vibe because Magor usurped the throne from his nephew, King Anus's son, another Agan, Agan the uncrowned. The fact that Aman thinks, as we heard in that soundbite, that he is a superior fit to rule and a superior Targaryen is very clear and very apparent. He thinks Aga's a joke. But the fact that he would say, I think, like, this speaks to the fact that he, like, Kristen, thinks he has a better read on the way things should go than the actual law of the land.

I love that. What a character. My goodness. What a character. Do you want to talk about Amon and Helena for a second here? Because I think it's also important in that next in line context to just say definitively, in all of the knocking on A-gun that he's doing, that doesn't in any way indicate he thinks Reneira should be in line.

He's fully, fully, fully team green. He just thinks he has a better, he's a better fit than his older brother, called Helena Queen when they were still children. Helena, we've been talking about the Helena Eamon thing since that episode. When, I mean, first of all, again, my question was, did he go to her chambers after the pig dread thing? And you were like, no, he was brought to her chambers. But, like, literally, like, Helena's first seen, Amid is there.

And then when we see her at the funeral, a drift mark on the ground being a cool bug girl at a funeral. And Agon's like, can't believe I have to marry that. Avan's like, I'd marry her. Like, what are you talking about? Only mom would let me. And then. there's a cut scene from last week's episode.

We didn't get to see it, but we know that there's this, like, because of the audio description on like a closed, I don't know, excavated from some layers of closed captioning, that there's a whole discussion between Aman and Agan where Aman is telling Agan to be nicer to Helena at the dinner. Like, you've got to be cool. She's our precious sister, blah, blah. And Agan's like, I got her present, don't worry about it.

And it's apparently what she's holding. I never really understood what it was she was holding in that scene when she makes her awesome toast. So, Amon has definitely has a soft spot for Helena. I think the show could do a little bit more to underline that, but that's definitely, I think, there, which has sparked, and we got so many emails about this, this Helamond theory that her children are actually Amon's children, and that's why he thinks he's next in line to the throne or whatever. I don't think that's the case. I don't think those are his children.

I don't think he's having sex with her. I just think we're supposed to be absorbing a fondness and tenderness towards her that he has. Agreed. I liked the way that they were positioned a huddle next to each other during the... The coronation? Coronation. Yeah.

And when Rainies and Malius attack there, when we look at one of them, we're looking at the other, too. I mean, the... I'm sorry. Her... Curtsy Bell and then his... is like it just gets it just gets less and less and less

and she's just like this much she's like I might be a weird bug girl but even I know this motherfucker should not be king it's the way and it's on Akon's face too he's looking at every single person in turn like I know you hate me but I need you to nod your head that was incredible

oh boy but Joe before we before we see oh wait you wanted to did you want to do the the and Mitchell. Oh, quote. I don't know if you enjoyed this as much as I did, but like, I feel like, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like we hear it before we see who's saying it, like, because they're cutting back and forth between the Cargill twins and Kristen and Amund. But we hear him say, you know, basically that Egan could be anywhere. And he says, on a ship to Yiti. And it's just the way he says, Yiti, that I absolutely loved.

wonderful, wonderful delivery of that line. Also, great way to get Yee T out there for the audience as they are developing that spinoff. Oh, what a seed. Oh, boy. You've identified like four or five different spinoff seeds so far this season. Always on the lookout for a backdoor pilot. I love it. On a ship, you know that Amund line.

That was really our backdoor pilot for our Yiti spin off. Oh, boy. Speaking of things that we're always on the lookout for Joe, we share this in common with the Cargill twins. We're always on the lookout for filed teeth. And so it is time to head to Checks notes, the child fighting bit. Teeth are being filed, nails are being grown,

cheek flesh is being torn asunder. There is a passage in fire and blood. That is, it's not note for note, but it is similar. This is what the brothel keeper, the madam, was hinting at when she said that Aegon's tastes were known to be, quote, less discriminating. That refers to this child fighting pit where he likes to hang out and keep his bastards. A passage in fire and blood that positions Aigon in a similar setting. It goes thusly.

Prince Agan was, quote, At his revels, Munkin says, in his true telling, vaguely. The testimony of Mushroom claims Sir Kristen found the young king to be drunk and naked in a flea bottom rat pit, where two gutter snipes with filed teeth were biting and tearing at each other for his amusement, whilst a girl who could not have been more than 12, pleasured his member with her mouth. Let us put that ugly picture down to Mushroom being Mushroom, however and consider instead the words of septon eustace though the good septon amidst prince

sagan was with a paramour when he was found he insists the girl was the daughter of a wealthy traitor and well cared for besides right oh eustace um thank you bless you ryan condle mcgels zapashnik for sparing us the uh good lord the 12 year old yeah but we did get the filed filed down teeth of the children fighting pit great stuff joe we've been saying all season we want to get down to the city more. This is what you had in mind, right? This is exactly. I said, give us the child fighting, please.

I've just been thinking a lot about like, we've been saying we want this, and I was trying to think about like how this was achieved on Thrones, like, successfully or not or whatever, right? And so, like, who were the characters that were most effective in moving us through other strata of society? Braun is a huge one.

And Braun, as we know, as book readers, has like a, I think, no, not I think, a healthily expanded role in the show just because that character was such a, just a hit, a smashola. So they expand him and expand him, expand him. Aria's time on the road with Gendrian, Hot Pie and all that stuff, you know, and the band without brother, like, meeting, you know, the brother without banner is what I meant, like meeting all of those people out on the road. That's a big part of it. The wildlings in general are a key. part of it, Davos a little bit, even though he's risen up the ranks. Like, he remembers where he came from. He remembers the Bull of Brown. He does. And then, like, the sex workers, Shay and

Ross. And so it's like, with mixed benefits. Because I remember, like, I really didn't like Ross at the time because she was a, um, Ross was like a show invented character. And I was like, why? It felt like they were doing it just to like, have an excuse for more sexy times. But now I see it as like a really interesting pluses and minus when it comes to that character but an attempt to get us into the bells of the pleasure din and like you know wherever else we may be i did like meeting that that madam uh whoever she was who was leaning out the window she seemed pretty pretty cool but i think um thus far this show and i think they said as much in the behind the scenes this week. I think it was Miguel Sapachnik talking about how thus far this has been about this sort of

internecine like dissolving of a family and how that's going to spread and spread and spread out throughout the kingdoms. And so we are going to feel like a wider and wider appreciation for the world we're living in. But right now thus far, we are sort of in the red keep. And I appreciate this as an attempt to get us out into the streets. In order to do that, though, I think we do need character like a brawn where like we spend so much it's not like we're we're taking one little day trip out into the streets like we know who brawn is you know top to bottom definitely i i do think it's helpful and important to glimpse these aspects of of kings landing life the part of this that confounded me in this episode was the idea both in the discussion of the episode and from the

characters inside of it, that seeing this, looking over and seeing Agan's bastard, seeing this child fighting pit, and understanding that this is where he spends his time was a necessary light bulb moment for characters to understand that Agon's garbage. Eric says to Aric, you see now what he is. And my response to that is, didn't you already? You know, Eric is the character, as you noted earlier, who tells Alicant what happened between. Agon and Diana. He is aware that Agon is a rapist. And Eric is the one who's like, I can't, yeah, this is, he can't be king, but he knew before

this. And, you know, Condal said in the inside the episode, I think that's the big mystery of the episode, is who is Agon really, who is the man we're about to make king. I would, I would posit that that has been established clearly for the audience, that Aagon is not a fit king. It has for the, I don't think we needed any more information besides the fact that he, like, raped a serving girl last week. But I feel like there was a way to do this

because the propulsion is Eric wants to convince his brother. But I feel like we get that where we were only sort of like half grasping that in the midst of their journey through the city. You know, we're sort of like he's like, now you see. Right. Yes, because the characters have been,

and Allison had been, there was this effort in the prior episode to shield this truth. So you're right, if this is about bringing it to light. from war characters so that they then can't ignore it, then yeah, that is an important thing. But then maybe then just simply a conversation between the two of them

as they're picking out their very similar cloaks to go down into the city and pulling their hair into a low bun to say like, okay, we got to go get the king and Eric being like, man, I'm not even sure this guy should be king. You know what you mean? And it's like I'm usually for show, don't tell. But in this case, I felt like I needed like a little bit more tell with Eric and Eric. You know what I mean?

So we get it from them over time. Right. We get the, they basically do their brotherly, twinly version of Jamie's. So many vows, they make you swear and swear grappling because Eric, with an E says something must be done, Eagan is unfit to rule. Eric with an A says, you tolerated the princess proclivities for years, which is true. Eric with an E says, because it was my sworn duty, Eric. Eric with an A says, it is for the hand to find wisdom.

and we swore an oath of service until death. And I do like this idea. And it's important for the characters to wrestle with it. Which vow matters more. It's also of a piece, and it's different for each character, but it's of a piece that are parallels with what Alicent is wrestling with, with her feelings about Agon, her desire to save and protect Renera in conflict with upholding the duty of thinking she's acting on Vassaris's final wish.

Like, is the Kingsguard oath here more important for these twins? is protecting the realm more important for these twins, those vows are inherently in conflict with each other here. And what I think is really interesting is that, like, we've had Kristen Kuhn, we've had Harold Westernling, but, like, this is a very Kingsguard-heavy episode. Yeah. There's only seven members of the Kingsguard,

and four of them are involved in this episode, you know what I mean? And so I think we need to be thinking about that idea of, again, it's vows, it's oaths, but vows and oaths, same thing, signs of portents, are intimately connected to power, right? Because your decision of which oath to prioritize over which, often, I mean, in an ideal world, comes from like a moral compass or it shouldn't be complicated, but often it is. And so when Jamie's like, when Jamie Lannister is like, what do I do? do I put the king to the sword to save the city?

You know, like where, what has the most power here? My father, my king, my, the realm, all that's our stuff. So in. What is the realm? Thousand blades. I'm going to me. I think, Joe, that's, it connects actually to the next scene. And this is where we're going slightly out of order and melding together scenes that

involve the same character sets. but Otto demanding obeisance in the throne room from the very unfortunate Lord to happen to be around King's Landing when this is all unfolding. And then his later conversation with Laris because this is also about a pledge and whether you will uphold it

or go against your word. Otto always worth tracking where he is standing in relation to the throne, not sitting on it here, but right in front of it on top of those stairs. Couldn't wait to climb him. Laris is watching from the sidelines there, that very familiar post

that so many characters stood in in Thrones watching what was unfolding in the throne room tracking with interest. Who do you usually think of in that spot? From the earlier season, CERCY or Sonsa? I was going to say CERCY. Yeah.

And then obviously she moves to a different spot in that throne room over the course of the seasons. But yeah, it's a CERCY spot for me, mostly, I think. auto says to everyone there it's time to declare your intentions you're not going to leave the room without doing that the implication is quite clear you're not going to leave with your lives

if you don't bend the knee and shout out Lady Fell Lord Barryweather for Stay and True Caswell our guy Alan with two else and a you which I know you want to talk about he does go through the show of bending the knee here

and saying, you know, hailing the king, but he ultimately will attempt to escape. It was a mostly smart move. It was a mostly smart move. By that time, my note to him is you can't wait for the slow gates to open to escape on your horse. You need a quicker exit strategy. If only he had demons' map to get out of the game.

I really liked this auto-thron room scene because, again, it speaks to what control looks like for him. there's this larger, I mean, we're very, we're inching toward bringing tens of thousands, exact headcount up for debate and fire and blood, as we'll talk about later, into the dragon pit. So this won't be secret for long, but there's this desire to control information paired with this need to start bringing people into the fold. And the absolute lack of deafness or tact or care of what anybody there will think about

what he's doing, it is a bold. old-faced coup for everyone there to see in full. And Otto has absolutely no compulsion about doing it anyway. Yeah. And it seems a little weird to me that like, so we're going to talk about Alan Caswell right now, right? R-I-P. Alan, as we mentioned last week, he spelled A-L-L-U-N. And I was like, ridiculous.

And then all of Wales sent us an email to say, that's how we spell it, D-A-L-W. We're sorry, Wales. So my apologies to your king, Michael Sheen, and the rest of you for not knowing that Alan is spelled. And I'm Welsh. I've got four L's in my middle name. But not knowing that Alan is spelled that way. Usually A-L-U-N and Wales. But anyway, Alan Caswell, rest in peace.

So he is hung, we see later, as Rainier's sneaking out. That's the king's justice that Otto is talking about. We don't see the other lords. and shout out Lady Fell strung up. So in the book, they all get beheaded. Really fun time for them, right?

But I hope that Otto is, that does not seem the move to me. Like, I would put them in prison and try to like negotiate for them with their houses or stuff like that. Like, why would you kill these political pawns right away, especially since the episode starts with let's talk about the houses and who we need and where they are, you know.

I think we'll see imprisonment and negotiation and that our guy Allen was treated to a different fate because he tried to actively escape. Yeah. What did you take it one step further? Joe, what did you make of the scene with Laris and Otto? I think this is fascinating. I think this is super interesting for Laris because, I mean, essentially Laris is playing what, a triple agent here?

because Otto's like, I see that you've been hanging out with my daughter a bunch. This is after he's brought him, Lord Allen, this is how this all unfolds, yeah. Yeah,

and Lord Allen's dragged off being like, do you know who I am? I was just envisioning. I don't, did you do theater in high school or middle school at all? I mean, not seriously.

Like, I, you know, occasional school play in my youth, but, but can't claim to. I've done a lot of very amateur theater. And I'm just like, it's so fun if you're like pull up like if you're someone off stage and you have to like shout

back so that the people in the audience can hear you and I was just imagining that actor standing outside that door just being like do you know who I am? Alan Caswell oh man but right so Laris does Otto a favor right he brings him Alan Caswell

and then Otto says you spent many hours with the queen of late and then Laris says very significantly there's a lot of feet that I have to look at now he says There's no reason that in the end, those hours cannot benefit you. But then what does he do on top of that? He then goes back to Allison and he dismantles Otto's spy network, essentially.

So what I think the key takeaway here is that I think Laris is on Team Laris at all times. That's what I think. I agree. I am interested in reading that scene while remembering the instrumental role Laris played in bringing Otto back. back to court and whether he had like a long con design on this building this allegiance with Otto. But either way, him thinking, him getting Otto and Allison both to think that he is their, their number one boy is to his benefit exclusively.

Do you think Otto had to take his boots off for lyrics? I was literally just going to ask you that same question. to me. Literally about to ask you that. Listen, if you're listening to this and you have a foot fetish, I support you, it doesn't hurt anyone. No, no kink shaming here on House of R among consenting adults. Consenting. That's, that's...

That's not what we're about it all. Joe, it's time to talk about Allison visiting her niece, your favorite scene of the episode and I guess season? Maybe, yeah, maybe the entire season. As a table setter for this riveting conversation, it's been quite a day for these two. Renisa woke to find herself imprisoned in a prior scene. And we have a couple timeline questions. Mine was, why wasn't she at the family dinner

if she was still at the Red Keep? What was yours? Well, I thought she was, okay, so I thought that they covered that well last week because they were cutting between that and vehement being sewn up. So I felt like, okay, Renisa's not... But then she can't join after? I guess she's in a bit of...

of a somber mood. Not one for feasting. She's like it smells of embalming fluid. I don't want to have some roast bore with the old grand sons. The stranger doesn't care if my eyes are opened or closed or if I have some crackling pig tonight. So I'm going to go back to my chambers and do some light reading. Carry on. So yeah, here's the TikTok on this, right?

Vassar's dies that night, we all agree. Reneer has already, Reneer has already said, I'm going back to Dragonstone with the kids, I'll be back, right? But, like, when did she go? Because you don't take a ship at night. So, like, yeah, did she take the midnight ship to Dragonstone? Like, when did they leave? I think they had to dip immediately because them's got so tense.

Yeah. Okay, so the dusk light ship to Dragonstone. And then I guess they took Baila with them, even though she's the ward of Rheny's because where's Baila in this episode, right? Yeah. So. Yeah. Yep.

I just, I have some logistical questions, but I think it's cool. We talked about this in Talk to Thrones. This is an addition. Rainis is not in Kings Landing for the coup. I think it was cool to include her here, if for the scene alone. So my logistic, quibbles aside, I'm glad she's here. Me too, especially given what she was saying to Renira and the godswood last week about this idea of her standing alone.

Like you felt that, you felt that so keenly in this episode, the sense of isolation for her. Allison, meanwhile, in addition to everything we've already discussed, has been holding a handkerchief to her nose, Joe, to ward off the stench of Viseras's bloated, rotting corpse. You brought this up on Talk of the Thrones. It was important to you as it should have been that Chris know that Vassaris stunk. And we thought we would extend the same courtesy to our listeners and read a couple fireblood passages about how badly Vissaris smelled. Tell me, do it.

A day passed, then another. Neither septens nor silent sisters were summoned to the bedchamber where King Viseras lay, swollen and rotting. Rotting. I love that you put your ASMR voice on to say, swollen and rotting.

No bells rang. And then there's another passage later. By the time Prince Eamon took his leave, the stink, from the dead king's bedchamber had wafted all through Magor's Holdfest. And many wild tales and rumors were spreading through the courting castles. Through the court and castle. Just great stuff. Highly evocative. You really feel like you're in the story with the characters. I love when a stink waffes. You know what I mean? Love it. Boy. I really, I genuinely love the idea that that was why they

were like, okay, it's finally, we can't stall anymore. Like, we need to get going now because people can smell the dead king. I know. I love that in this episode, Otto says, time is of the essence, right? And later, Allison says, no more dithering, right? But no one says, the king reeks, we got to go. Follow question. Do you think Patty Constantine got paid for this episode to show up and get wrapped?

I was wondering about this, actually, because one of the really neat things on last week's House the Dragons Built Futurrette was seeing the head on a stick that they made. It's like,

is that just the head on the stick, maybe? I don't know. There's some, like, torso action, too. Do you remember when Charles Dance was like, hell yeah,

I meant season five of Game of Thrones? And then we're like, what? And then it's just him lying on a table with stones on his eyes. Missy, Missy Chuck, come back. Committed to the craft.

Truly wonderful stuff. Truly wonderful stuff. As was this scene, when Allison goes to see Reiniis, tell her about Vassaris, and pitch her on joining Team Green. And Detective Renice, you labeled El-Rond, Detective Elrond in our rings of power finale, Chad, and it's sticking. So we're here with Detective Renice now immediately sniffs out. Oh. You're doing a cute. Oh, you're doing a good.

scoffs an actual like sound amazing at the idea that this was Vissaris's dying wish incredible performances for both Olivia Cook and Eve Best of the scene. Just remarkable. Part of the reason that Rindy scoffs at this is because Joe, she like us is old enough to remember

when Viseris labored for 15 minutes down the length of the throne room to defend Reneira as chosen heir and Luke her child and the rightful in their mind, Lord of the Tides, because it was one day ago in the story. Yeah. It's last night. Yeah.

But that's not going to stop Allison. Believe it or no, it is of no consequence, she says. Agon will be king. Did that remind you of the Rainis Renira? What Does It Matter? Conversation at all from last week. I'm fascinated to track this competing, like, nihilistic. streak and really like hell-bent pursuit to change and shape the course of events that

these characters are experiencing all at once. That's interesting. That hadn't occurred to me, but I also love nihilism, as you know. I have it embroidered on a pillow, so I'll be on the lookout for future nihilistic streaks. Amazing. What did you make of Allison's pitch in an episode? episode where she is trying to avoid Reneer's death and ensure her life that this recruitment boils down to what has Reneira ever done for you. I mean, it's not a bad tactic, right,

to bring up Lainor, your son cuckolded. Renier's heirs or none of yours. And like, we talked last week about Reneer coming to Raineese and like the. the important wildcard that Rainies played was last week. And Reniro was smart enough to come down to the godswood and make her a pitch that worked. And so Allison's like, my turn. Okay. Because not only is she a wild card as a human, but she's got big old fuck off dragon. So I would like her on my side.

And so I think it's mostly smart. Yeah. Yeah. What she does here. I think so too. And like, especially because we had that, the stranger has visited me more times than I can count just agonizing moment with Reneas last week. And we know the way that loss and grief has defined her life.

This is a much savier pitch. What's the alternative? Yeah, I know reminding her, hey, I know that your grandkids are with her. You probably want to go make sure they're okay. No, this is the thing you have to do. How have these characters helped you get the thing you want? Let me tell you how I can. And she keeps talking about, like, peace and negotiation, right?

This is the thing I wanted to really drill down on with you. Steve, can we get this clip? The Iron Throne was yours by blood and by temperament. Fisarius would have lived his days, a country lord, content to hunt and study his histories. But here we are. We do not rule. But we may guide the men that do.

gently, away from violence and sure destruction and instead toward peace. Okay. So she says outright, you should have been queen. Joe, what is the path to peace that Allison sees here? I mean, I think she's hoping that she can appeal to Reneer her and say, listen, pal, this happened. We did a coup. So you did a coup.

But it can be above this one. Was that the Captain American was? I turned my chair around and I straddled in. I said so. You did a coup. Thank you for reading my mind. That's exactly what I was referencing. But, you know, I do believe that Allison thinks there's a, naively thinks there's a way that she and Reneer can get out of this alive and maybe friends, you know.

And But here again She's talking about Exactly what Rainies is about to call her out for But she says, you know, we do not rule But we may guide the men that do It's fascinating to me That Renice seems to take such umbrage

Maybe not specifically at this But there's something Allison puts a foot wrong in this, right? In terms of the response she gets from Rainies but when Reneas has had those conversations with younger Reneira, where Reneas is like, this is just the way it is. A men would sooner, you know, sooner to see the realm burn then put a woman on the Iron Throne.

Right? And so Reneas seems resigned to the sex disorder. And she's told, Corley, she's put it behind her. She's done. Whatever. So maybe it's the stinging hypocrisy that bothers her, that Allison comes to her and says, because the way, the moment she seems to lose her, is she says, if you want Driftmark, like you and your granddaughters can have it, you should

have it for you and your granddaughters to pass on as you see fit, right? And that's when Reneas is like, you are wise, and then I believe you be Allison Hightower, and then just sort of goes in for the jugular, which we'll talk about in a second. But, like, I think it's the hypocrisy that bothers her. Allison to say, we do not rule, but we may guide men that do. And then to say, you and your grand, I care about you and your granddaughter's having driftmark. When Rainy Snow's know, like, you believe the power for women resides one step behind the throne.

And that's not quite what I believe. But how do I reconcile that with the conversations? Anyway, I think it's really meaty. And I like, I'm liking, I'm enjoying chewing on it. Yeah. It is, like, every line in the scene is. is something you could parse for like just an hour alone, much to, I'm sure that filled Stephen or Juno

with absolute terror just now hearing that. Special bonus episode. I would just see. Let's call about some time. Now we can. God's be good. Truly a gods be good one there. We've talked about this a lot,

but like the Allison doesn't believe that piece is possible because she said that to Otto in the council chamber. they won't bend the knee. And so what's so interesting to me about that is that the... We're about to say the same thing. Exactly. Like, the path that she sees, the only one, is that she do the very thing

that Otto told her not to count on. When he said to her in episode five, either you prepare Agon to rule or you cleave to Reneira and pray for mercy, she can be that mercy for Reneira that her father spent her whole lifetime telling her she shouldn't expect to being at war with... A clement queen.

A clement queen. Being at war with what you believe is possible and right and what everyone else is telling you is inevitable is really, really interesting. I think that also manifests in the first part of that quote. Invoking blood and temperament to say that Renice should have been queen over Viseris, to me is like one of the maybe the, in the running for the most interesting moment of the episode. Because like, how can you acknowledge that while you're making the pull. for Agon to be king over Reneira. That's that hypocrisy again, right?

And I think Renice identifies that there too. I think she's just alluded herself, Allison, because we'll get even more of it later. You know what I mean? Do you want to do any quick dragon math, Joe, with the without your dragon, she may be persuaded to negotiate part of this? Or is the key thing that we should just say

that this is a big change for Allison, to go from saying to Amon that his obsession with those beasts goes beyond understanding to now actually doing the calculus of what it would mean to swing Reneis and Malyse to have that dragon on Team Green. That's a big change for Allison. Yeah, I'm just a little bit worried that the only reason it's here is so that we will be reminded that she has a dragon for later. But yeah, the dragon math and Otto is constantly doing Dragon Math as well, right?

But the Dragon Math for Team Green is Sunfire for Agon, Dreamfire for Helena, and Vagar for Amos. they got off our amen and that's it, right? Yeah, I mean, obviously they're identifying. Well, right. Currently, no, no Darren in the show other than the opening credits. Yeah, so, right, that would be a meaningful, meaningful swing. So that's it versus Cyrax,

Caraxies. Vermax. Vermax. We don't know if Tyraxies, who is Jop's Dragon, Moondancer, who is Bales. We don't know if they're, what size they are basically in the show. at this point, but yeah, the swing there is...

Yeah, all those kids, all the strong boys, you know, the twin girls, Rainis has a dragon, C-smoke, we don't. We don't know what's going on. Poor C-smoke. What's going on? We don't know. And we should mention that there's a bunch of fucking wild dragons all over the place on Dragonstone.

So like, you know, they're on the dragon mouth back foot. So yes, having Malese on their side would be a huge deal. All right, Joe, let's talk about. about the line of the episode here. After Allison talks about a true queen, counting the coster people, there's that the realm is a cloak for her ambition once again.

Reneas drops the absolute bar from the beginning of the episode. And yet you toil still in service to men, your father, your husband, your son, you desire not to be free, but to make a window in the wall of your prison, have you never imagined yourself on the iron throat the way she leans in

to whisper, that last line. What an indictment because a window in a prison is not an escape. It's not a way out. It's not a fundamental change. It's your current circumstance with a better view. Right. Whereas Renira is like, I'm going to change the world order. I'm going to break the wheel, right? You desire not to be free to make a window in the wall of your prison. Like, whoever wrote that and it might be the credited writer of Sarah asked, but it might have been someone else in the room. like me, that's how writers are, like, go buy yourself a drink. What an incredible line.

Get yourself a negroni, spalliato, prascego. Stunning. I love how this indicts Allison's limited views, understanding of power. And I don't think this is Allison's fault at all, but it goes back to, and we talked about this bit on Talk to Thrones, but it goes back to the first. offer of power she was ever given was her father telling her to put on her dead mom's dress and go comfort the king. And then we saw her gradually, you know, snatch up little bits and pieces of power as she's guiding Vassaris one way or another about the stepstones, about whatever the case may be.

She's sort of learning to wield her power through that window in this prison. You know, if you think about Reneer trapped under the body of Vassaris, like that's her prison. or stuck in the room where Emma died where her windows literally look like bars of a prison. Like, that is where Allison has been. And so she's like, where's my power? And it goes back to what we were talking about with Kristen and Laris,

where these are sexual or sexually charged negotiations with Kristen, with Laris, with Vassaris. And that that is her understanding of power, how women can wield power. And it goes back to the walk with the green dress, which we talked about in contrast to Reneira's walk with the boar's blood all over her and how Reneira's walk signifies her complete flouting of the role a woman plays in this society. And she's just like, I do not care. This is me covered in blood. Fuck you, I'm powerful.

And Allison does a similarly powerful walk, but she does it with a fashion statement. and, you know, her diplomacy with the, with the team greens that are sitting at that, you know, like all of that by choosing her moment at the societal function. And so how does she view power? And I think Rainis and Rainer, if she were there, would rightly call that out as like,

that's a poor, you know, that's a poor substitute for true power to merely peer out, to merely peer out of or broaden the window of this prison that you've been trapped in. Well, it's through the wall. And Rainies is going to. bust through the floor of the dragon bit at the end of this episode.

Let's do it. Joe, let's talk about another woman in this story who makes a very crucial power play inside of this episode. Masaria. The white worm is wriggled back into our story. Kristen and Aeman just happen upon the spot where Eric with an E and Aric with an A and Otto are meeting with Masaria and her little bird who has summoned the twins. Joe, take us through this chat, this negotiation between Otto and the white worm, who we know go way back.

The information was making its way from the white worm to Otto back in episode four, but have clearly never met until now. Again, I think to call back to that email, we read about him calling it a stinking onion was just such like a snide sneering thing for how to say. Also, if you think you look anywhere near as cool as Damon. does in his murder cloak, you are poorly mistaken, Otto, High Tower. For Otto to spend his entire fucking life obsessed

with Damon Targary and then do Damon cosplay in his first trip out into Kingslanding was just sad to see. I loved it. But so she makes this play here, this power play

of like, I've got oh, you're looking for Agon, I've got him. Great job, I'm sorry. I've read it. one cantalabre in the window and she's like, someone go get that shitty king that like staying out down here, we're going to shove him under a table and a sept. It's a great plan. She's definitely at the child fighting pit.

It shouldn't be hard to find him. Favorite haunts. He's always there. Look for the pointy tooth children. But she's in this moment, and we like this about her. She's advocating for the people of Kings Landing for those children. There is no power,

but what the people allow you to take. Which is clear veris analogy, right? Power resides where men believe it should reside. And the power of the people is something that Allison is very, and not very aware of. We need to have a public coronation. And the people need to buy into this story publicly. That's important.

However, I have questions about the white worms like negotiation style here because, like, she extracts what I believe is a very feeble promise from Otto to look into it, essentially. It's, I, it is bizarre to me. I, I, yeah, I, you know, this is a, it's an interesting scene because I, I agree. I think that, first of all, it's a lot of like what we've been craving for, like you talked about earlier, with just the time in the city, the time with a wider set of characters, anchoring the appeal in that desire to protect.

which connects back to what we heard Masaria say to Damon in episode two, this idea of being liberated from fear, thinking that that was what she was going to get from Damon, realizing it wasn't, going and making that for herself and then trying to give it to other people, that's really interesting. I think the problem is the same one of time spent and pacing because the specific, this idea of eliminating the savage use of children in Flea Bottom,

is like emblematic. Great. We obviously support that. To be clear. You know, we're going to come out against... The child fighting pitch and the chief ripping. We're out on that. Yeah.

We struggled over it, but that's that, you know, I guess take a stand sometimes. So here we are. It's a thing we saw like 10 minutes ago. And it's, it becomes this like emotional and also plot mechanic crux of the episode. So I think it's like emblematic of some of that pacing. Not to mention the fact that Missaria, like, uses, she's got little birds that work for her, right? She, like, uses children and her spying.

So, I don't know. I guess she's not filing any of their teeth. Do you think they get a 401k if you're a Missaria little birds? So it's a great question. We'll have to look into the benefits package for Masaria's little bird network. This conversation does lead A&E. to retrieve Agon, Kristen and Amund in hot pursuit. They find him beneath, inside the sept,

beneath the very table where Alicent and Reneura once prayed. This is this spot, this discovery, interesting for a couple reasons. One, we think, of course, of Alicent and Reneer in that moment, the closeness, Alison guiding Reneer through prayer. It just really reinforces how much time has passed and how much has changed in a very effective way. Also, anytime we're thinking about Agon inside of like the veil of holiness and what an affront his actions are to that, that's rich. The fact that they pulled him out from underneath this made me think of Helena's prophecy again, though, the beast beneath the boards.

Now this is like a stone slab, a stone plinth, but not wood. But I don't know. Who says the boards have to be wood? So is it possible that this is that Agon is the beast beneath the boards here? Absolutely. We got so many emails about this. This is a possible interpretation. Helena, of course, would be quick to call her shitty husband, brother, the beast beneath the boards.

Beware. No, the Targaryen's husband, brother. Boy. I love that. Okay. He's afraid of, I'm sorry. I love that for her and for us. Visibly terrified.

I love that he says immediately, I want my mother. Great stuff. Remarkable. I should mention you pointed this out to me. Will you ask a question? Had we before seen the giant cut mark on Masaria's throat that we see very visibly in this episode? And I went back and looked and there's so many, like all of her costumes in the first few episodes she's in. She's wearing a choker or like a dress that's class.

It's been hidden this whole time. And so, you know, in an episode where we're talking about like the cost of living out in King's. landing. I think it's an interesting moment to reveal that. And perhaps Masaria's life well before coming to Westeros at all and those many horrors. So, Agon tries to flee. Eric with an A, tackles him, takes him outside, A and C are waiting. We get a whole, the whole sequence here. Kristen and Eric with an A duel. Brother, Eric with any watches and then dips. Amund and Agan have a little brotherly spat. I have so many questions.

Okay. Like here's saying, Mallory, if you were my twin sister, and we went into the city with matching low buns and similar cloaks. And the close captioning sometimes got our names wrong as to which one of us is speaking. And we had to pull a shitty king out from underneath a table and a sept and take him back. Even though we might disagree. I would help you. I would not leave you alone with fucking Kristen Cole. I know.

Eric just literally stands there. No rage murder. Kristen Cole. I mean, the Green Council is probably very hush-hush, but the wedding sequence was not. The brothers seemed to like each other. I was very confused by Eric. Like, I get it. Like, they're going to part ways.

But, like in that moment. You help first, then go. I did like the fighting choreography, though, because I love the fighting choreography between Kristen Cole and I'm going to call them Arik, even if they say Eric in the show. Arick has a very light on his feet swashbuckler moves with his cape and stuff like that. I was so delightful to my eye that I rewound it several times. I really, really enjoyed it. And then with Amid and Agon, those actors were talking about how they wanted to make it look so real

so that Tom literally bit Ewan on the hand to like make to really sell their fight. and stuff like that. So, yeah. The effect of the child fighting pit plot, undoubtedly. Yeah, and Agon's like, damn, if only had found my teeth. During this fight, in earshot of plenty, Agon is begging, Eamond, to just let him flee. Just let him escape.

Put me on a ship to eat. Put me on a ship to the spinoff. I have no wish to rule, no doubt. taste for duty. I'm not suited. And Aymand replies, you'll get no argument for me, nor for many of us. But Kristen's on the case, and it's what Allison wants. And so they bring him back. Get him sobered up. Get him out of the High Tower Green into the Targaryen finery, the black of House Targaryen and of the foe, and ready for his coronation. but before it's coronation time, Joe, a really good scene between Otto and Allison.

They have it out. Take us through this. Otto is writing a letter to clearly. Darren Targaryen. No, I mean, I think, so what is great, and this was confirmed in the House of the Dragon Built, the special feature behind this episode, but I thought was pretty clear from the jump,

which is that this is meant to be a clear, mirror navigation of the first in their private chambers conversation between Otto and Allison where Otto says wear your mother's dress and go see the king. Otto's writing a little scroll probably to this fucking brother, maybe Darren, who knows, but like sitting by the fire, it's just framed exactly the same way. But here comes Allison to try to grab a hold of some semblance of power back from her father. Should we listen to? what Allison says here.

Oh, our hearts were never won. I see that now. Rather, I've been a piece that you moved about the board. If that is true, then I made you queen of the seven kingdoms. Would you have desired it otherwise? How could I know? I wanted whatever you impressed upon me to want. And now the debt comes to you.

So this is what we've been referring to throughout the episode. This is this really crucial moment for Allison's character. where she is rebelling against Otto's controlling hand and grappling with having operated in defiance of her, not even defiance of her own preferences, of even assessing or considering what her own preferences were for so long. And this is where we feel that, oh, we wish we could crawl into our screens and enter the scene and say,

Alison, the next logical step here is to then reject what you think of this, Sarah's told you because even if that was what he had wanted, which it wasn't, it shouldn't matter. What do you want? What do you think is right? I think it's so interesting for her as a character to talk about, first of all, to refer to herself as a piece that's been moved about the board. And you referred to her as a pawn earlier. And I like the idea that in this episode she's trying to be more of a queen on the board, right? And the clearest piece on the board is Agon, who's the king that they're trying to capture, both auto-analysis. are trying to capture the king.

That's the whole thing that they're doing in this episode. But I think what's also wild is that if that is true that I made you Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, would you have desired it otherwise? She says, how could I know? This is exactly what she's about to do to Aegon,

where she's about to make him king of the seven kingdoms. Yeah, these perpetuating cycles across the generations of these families. And so it's like you can try to break through the toxicity of whatever, but maybe it's already burrows so deep inside of you that you have no choice but to pass it down onto the next generation.

Yeah, absolutely. And like, we have this real warring of morality inside of this conversation that I think makes that what you're identifying they're even more tragic. Because Otto saying that you see the word squeamish to describe Allison not wanting to just outright murder her childhood best friend is like so horrific and vile

as she notes, right, saying that not wanting to murder people is into weakness. And this, the way that Otto uses the idea of sacrificing the greater good as these shields and cloaks. And like, he doesn't care about that at all. He only cares about power. He doesn't care about Allison's true partnership either. And when she starts to say to him at the end, this is what we're going to do, these really

decisive decisions. No more dithering. Yeah. Kristen will be Lord Commander. What could go wrong? Great choice. This great, great moment from her where she says,

Egon will be crown, all of Kingslanding will be there to bear witness. This is what we were hinting at earlier. Quote, My son will take the crown of his namesake, the conqueror and carry Blackfire,

his sword. Let the people remember the ancient strength of House Targaryen. Not only does this show tactical advancement and evolution, really clearly seeing and understanding how to show power

how to lend this era of credibility, how to cultivate and present those symbols of legitimacy, moving more firmly into the Targaryen camp there is inherently moving away from Otto and the House High Tower bleeding in to this branch of the Targaryan family. And we talked about those symbols of legitimacy on Sunday I talked to the throne. Here's the passage from fire and blood, which really sums up how central this is. Every visible symbol of legitimate. he belonged to Agon. He sat the Iron Throne. He lived in the Red Keep. He wore the conqueror's crown, wielded the conqueror's sword, and had been anointed by a septent of the faith before the eyes of tens of thousands. Grandmaster Orwell sat in his counsels, and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard

had placed the crown upon his princely head, and he was male, which in the eyes of many made him the rightful king, his half-sister, the usurper. Love the end of that passage because it connects all of these different threads that we're discussing, Allison identifying the path to that legitimacy, but inside of that Renis idea of toiling inside of the patriarchy. And I love what you observed about Otto saying, at the end when he realizes he's not getting what he wants and that she's standing fast and standing firm,

what does he say to her, Joe? He looked like your mother. This guy is a piece of shit. To try to induce her when she is a, assuming agency and power to this different role is just like so twisted. All right, Joe. On the twisted front, it is time to head with Allison into her chambers where we find Laris Strong in waiting.

Please take us through this extraordinary scene of House of the Dragon episode. Again, if I were still in the business of making gifts, Game of Thrones gifts, and maybe this will take me out of retirement and make me make one, I would do a back-to-back exasperated sigh of Brunera. I'm sorry, of Allison, right after Kristen Cole kills Beesbury, and right, she sees see Laris and she walks in. She's just sort of like, what now? What the fuck now, man?

These fucking guys. It's a long day. What's going on? All right. So Laris is there to. to give her some intel. Great stuff. We had an email from Matt, though, about questioning,

foot stuff aside, questioning how good Laris is a spymaster for Allison. Because Matt says, are we supposed to believe that he's a high-level operator and talented spymaster who never picked up on the long-laid plans put forth by 80% of the small council? When he said, I've learned something you should know. Her response should be, oh, like the conspirator. to usurp the throne that's been cooking for years, you're fired and joy the wall. Her being blindside was 100% of failure on the part of Laris, who was heretofore put forth as a formidable ally.

So how do you feel about Laris's intel? Great email. Great point. I think that this is also part of why it's a little strange. While I think the warming and softening is appropriate and helpful for the character overall, a little strange to have Alice and be like, wait, what? because it is a thing that she should, it does raise all these other questions.

My read on it from Laris's perspective is that he just chooses what he shares and when. So I don't know that it tells us that he doesn't know. I think it tells us that he maybe chose not to reveal this because it didn't benefit him to do so. But I wish that she would be like, excuse me, did you forget to tell me something very important? Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet

and you kind of forgot to tell me that they were doing it. You! Laris! Okay, so we've seen Laris sneaking and snooping around the castle all throughout this episode, chiefly, down in, I mean, like, in the throne, as you already mentioned, but also down in the Black Sells when our gal pal Talia is like,

guard, excuse me, do you know who I am? I have very busy spy work to do. And he's lurking, right? The guard by the table of torture implements. Um, we've already established that Laris is one of the king's confessors, which means he's, like, one of the torturers. So being down in the cells is sort of, that's his day job, right? Um, and he tells Allison that there's a web of spies in the Red Keep that, that, uh, Otto is benefiting from. He outs Talia.

Is this the last we'll see of Talia? Could be. I don't know. Um, like, she certainly can't be working for Alston anymore, right? So he says he can take the network out, though. And what's interesting is we get a very ostentatious close-up of the firefly on his cane as he rests in on the couch. And we had been sort of puzzling over this as a sigil because this is a show-invented sigil for him. How Strong has a sigil.

So unlike Littlefinger who had to make his own sigil, Laris just decided to make his own sigil. And I think we've figured out now that the Firefly is his sigil because he's a firebub. in that He constantly asked people to start fires for him. It's a main. So it's like, it's like Laris and his firebugs,

you mean, like gives them a little firefly pin and tells them to go do an arson out in the world, right? And we later, so we actually got a lot of emails about this which just means to me that a lot of people a lot of people were confused about this.

Didn't understand that that was Misaria's brothel or whatever you want to call it. Out of the skin trade. That was, oh yeah, her hotel, her B&B. Yeah, her Airbnb. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Her B&B.

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. That he burned down. So burned down Masaria's house. We see a cloaked figure. We do not see the face, but it doesn't matter. It's just one of Laris's firebugs, I think, as what we're meant to think. That could have been filmed in a parking lot somewhere, honestly.

But does that mean Masaria is out of the game? I say no. I just think this is a classic if you have not seen the body or heard any kind of definitive confirmation of death. Like after the heron haul fire, we see the charred corpses emerging and we get a discussion about how it's true. I didn't want you to do the murder. Oh, no. So without any of that, I think. No, this is a, this is a, doing an arson and doing it wrong this time.

Yeah, but Masaria is not going to be, if she, if she survived, which you think, probably. Yeah. Not going to be thrilled. No. About what's happened here. I would think not. Yeah, a lot more insect language from Laris as he's talking about this, the web of spies, the we are leaving.

Wait, this is occurring to me in real time. What if, on the one hand, if she's, yeah, right, she could just be very pissed that they've tried to ever killed. Or what if it's another Laris on Team Laris? like a fake out. And he went to Asariah and said, I love them. They're my new favorite power couple. And then they team up and form a new network. I can't remember if it was Riley or Zach, one of our beautiful writers about House the Dragon who asked me how my Laris fandom was doing this week. Boy, Joe. What a time. No, well. What a time to be the Laris strong Stan and Chief. Because how, how does Allison get this information from

him. What does Laris require in exchange? Laris enjoys for the queen to take off her shoes and then her stockings and maybe perch those to quote Allison

pretty little feet up on set tea for him to enjoy a nice view of them. When you say enjoy a nice view of, to be clear what you mean is so that he can jerk off in front of her.

While she sits there, it has to turn away in disgust. And it is a strong foot guy wanker trading intel for glimpses of the queen's feet. And again, we're not here to kinkshame. If this is a thing consenting adults

like to do, that's great. But she is repulsed. And so to like extort someone for glimpses of their feet. Yes. Is, okay. Yeah, this was like on the one hand kind of an incredible, you know, like Chris said, on Talk to Thrones on Sunday, gave a Thrones, they still got it.

Like this was kind of an incredible riotous, shocking Thrones scene that was just like, whoa, only I gave it Thrones to something like this happened. And then also inside of that, there's, yeah, there's this real despair for Allison, especially on the heels of making this stand to auto and assuming more agency. And like you're saying, like, if she enjoyed this, if she were into it, that would be one thing. But that's not what's happening here. And so it's just really heartbreaking on the heels of her trying to assume more control to them to reduce this. Oh, boy.

No, sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to undermine your great point that you're making. And I think that, like, yeah, she has to be thinking about Reine's words as she sits there and she's like, fuck, I really am in a prison. I love this email we got from Danielle talking about Harwin and Laris, right? So Danielle says, thinking about the sexual relationships that Rainira and Allison have, Reneer is seen having sexual experiences that show her pursuing sex and taking an active role in her sexual pleasure. She actively wants to have sex and enjoys herself in sexual experiences, whereas Allison's experiences are forced.

and uncomfortable, to say the least, and unwanted. Now that we've seen Laris and his foot slash sexual power play, this also shows a strong contrast between the strong brothers, and there are now sexual relationships with our two leading ladies. Again, Reneer has a loving and I would imagine sexually fulfilling, but I'll let Mal fill in the blanks, L-O-L, relationship with Harwin, producing a loving family even. And since everyone knows that those children are Harwins,

Alison is also left with the knowledge that she has this deviant, disgusting sexual relationship with Harwin's brother, just another wedge between these two women. And Reneer doesn't even know. Allison is just holding on to his fact and experience with no one to share it with. Honestly, no wonder she's so pissed. So, I mean, she's in a settee of her own making

to a certain extent with Laris for sure. But, I mean, I love that con. I hadn't thought about that contrast of Harwin and Laris as their sexual relationships with these women. Absolutely. Yeah. Ben Lindberg also wrote a great piece for the ringer.com. What a great website about how this sequence further solidifies Laris inside of the show as like the Little Finger clone.

I don't know if we ever learned that Little Finger was into foot stuff in particular, but the way that his obsessive lust for Cat connected and entwined with his powerplay so often is very present here as well. Okay, we are nearing the end of episode nine of House of the Dragon, but before we get to the Dragon Pit for the coronation, we have the, not quite a calm before the storm, but it's all relative inside of Hot D. We get these really interesting shots, Joe, of numerous characters just kind of staring into space, thinking about the future.

And then Eric, with a knee, springs her knees. He says, I cannot let this treachery stand. This is where they pass, Alan. and Alan's corpse out in the courtyard really cementing what is unfolding here. They pass Belairean the Black Dread skull. Renice has a moment where she looks at that skull thinking about dragon power,

thinking about her own mount, thinking about perhaps even Agon's conquest and what happens when a war with dragons at the heart of it unfolds? And then they enter the streets of King's Landing where the crowd is surging in a way that is so reminiscent of season one, episode nine, Baylor,

as the crowd, the Kings Landing small folks start rushing past Aria. I still am not over that pigeon dying for nothing, killed for a meal and then just dropped. It's devastating. But anyway,

rushing to see what was about to happen with Ned, the crowd here rushing, but they are being ordered here, as we discussed, to witness this coronation. the moment where Rainis realizes that the crowd is leading her toward the place she actually wanted to go toward Mayle's, toward the Red Queen. Fun fact, formerly, her dragon, the Red Queen, formerly ridden by Vassaris and Damon's mom, Alyssa, great little tie across Targ history there.

This carriage ride is the other path that we take to the coronation, Joe. What did you make of this conversation between mother and son? Again, I think this is a really clear, like, location callback. to, if we're in a carriage with Allison, we have to think about Allison to the carriage with Fasaris and Agon and Reneira. And in that moment in that episode, in the Hunt episode,

Reneira is in her, like, sulkiest phase of feeling like, nobody's here for me, nobody wants me, nobody loves me. My father is completely, like, my father's finally gotten the son he wants, so he does not care for me.

It's Agon's baby. Agon in that carriage with her, right? The Conqueror Babe. Hell, Hale, Agon the Conqueror, babe. And we get a very similar, you know, Agon here, Agon, a terrible person, right? But the fact that he's like, no way my father wanted me to be king, he did not like me, right?

Dad didn't like me. And it's very, again, I think it's an interesting Reneera-A-Gon comparison. Yeah. Comparison. And I think that Vesaris, the piece,

Vesaris fucking do nothing king absentee dad. You know what I mean? Like, the fact that Agon is so twisted up about his father not loving him, about him reaching out, you love me to his mom.

And her response is you imbecile, which is a really interesting, um, response here. I, and I think it's really interesting that the dagger is the moment that changes his, his mind. And I think the dagger, not because he understands it's import, because he doesn't.

And I think not even because it's like a shiny toy, but it is like, you know, we've seen, we've seen Vassaris use the, you know, his ancestral sword as a walking stick. Like, you know, there's a lot of things he doesn't care about, but he cared about that dagger. Always on the top. Always. And he always found a lid ball blast. So like, here is your father's most prized possession I always think about that Elton John song, my father's gun. Like, here is the thing. It is yours. And this changes everything for Agon.

I get this. Dad's dagger. Are you kidding me? Okay. Maybe I will be king. It's amazing how that shifts something so fully for him. And, like, it's an interesting contrast to what changes in the book where he also has that initial reluctance, the refusal initially.

And then there's this like active reminder, this campaign of reminding him from Kristen, et cetera, of what will happen to his family members and the people in his life. So that's a, it was fascinating to see the dagger once again at the center of things. And this all leads into the dragon pit and then out of the dragon pit, Joe.

The pit is jam-packed, a swarming O.F small folk in Fire. blood, this is one of the many things that is up for debate. How many came to see the crowning remains a matter of dispute, the passage reads. Grandmaster Monkin, drawing upon Orwell, tells us that more than 100,000 small folk jammed into the dragon pit, their cheers so loud they shook the very walls, whilst Mushroom says the the stone benches were half-filled. Which is a clear Trump...

Absolutely. ...inoguration joke from George Armerin. We see, in addition to the legions of Assembled, the new sigil draped behind Lideus, Agon's golden, three-headed dragon Targaryen sigil. So his mounts on fire, this fabled, beautiful golden dragon. But it also, you mentioned Renly and Stanis earlier, and it made me think of them too in that same scene that you described because...

I have this quote, too! I suppose if we use the same one, the battle will be terribly confusing with the house standard. Yes. Okay, so that was sorry, that quote. Yes. But then also in that same scene, I'm so sorry that I talked to over you, but also in that same scene, Santa says, you think a few bolts of cloth will make you king. No, the men holding those bolts of cloth will make me king. Where does power reside? You know, what symbolizes power? Is it the banner? No, it's the men holding the banner. It's the people who choose to believe in it. I also think, I think, and it could be wrong because we don't know, but I think this might be the payoff of Helena's second. prophecy, right, where she says Bulls of greens, bowl of black, dragon of flesh,

you know, like this idea of the two different banners, the two different sigils of House Targaryen. I like that. I was also thinking of that prophecy with the weaver language in the Allison and Laris conversation earlier, like a lot of weaving thread, loom talk across the show, yeah. Interesting.

This address that Otto makes to the assemble telling them, Vesaris is dead, he wanted Agon to rule. it's very much of a piece on a much grander scale and with higher stakes, the petitions for becoming Lord of the Tides last episode because there's this like public theater. Condal talked about this as well in the inside the episode, the way that the high towers really like to traffic in and it gets back to your various PowerPoint perception and how central that is to their

quest. And it's interesting too because like credit Masaria for getting this. part right, even if it is a farce for the high towers, they are acknowledging inside of that ruse that they need the people to see this and sanction it for it to unfold. Septin performing this ceremony, Eustace Hive, rise. We just got a shout out, Septin Eustis, one of the central unreligable narrators at the heart of the stretch of fire blood, so that's really fun. And Kristen crowning Agon, with Agon the Conqueror's Iron Crown, we went through that Allison's quote earlier

and how important it is. The thing that really stands out here watching it is that, you know, we've talked about Helena's prophecies a lot. This Saris's dream from episode one is coming true. Our son was born wearing Agon's iron crown, and I heard the sound of thundering hooves, splintering shields, and ringing swords. I placed our son upon the iron throne

as the bells at the Grand Sep told and all the dragons roared as one. Wrong wife, but every other part of this, right down to Fisceris, placing his son on the Iron Throne through what he said. All of that here, the Iron Crown, the Tolling of the Bells,

the swords. Just one dragon roaring. Oh, boy. Agon raises Blackfire. the, one of the ancestral Valerian steel swords of House Targaryen, the one that the king wields, raising it, he's hyped. He went for being reluctant to soaking up the adoration of the crowd in a hurry, Joe. And then, again, I think this is, like, if he's been love-starved his entire life, like,

I don't mean to be, like, poor little rich boy rapist at all about Agon. But, like, to think about him psychologically, if he has been, like, his mother views him as the offspring of, you know, Mary she was forced into. We've never seen a tremendous amount of affection from her towards him. Vasaris, absentee, dad, like Kristen Cole, psycho, father figure,

all this sort of stuff. And then you get the adoration of the crowd. And that, to me, is the moment for him. Yeah. It's that love that he's been starved of. And he's like, oh, here kind of feels like love. Is this love? Yeah.

Yeah. You can see him getting drunk on it instantly in real time. It's harrowing. As is, our girl, Rainis, erupting. She had popped over to the tunnels and then erupts through the floor. So this is another beast beneath the board's interpretation of the dragon pit to disrupt the coronation. She is in her armor. So that, despite her not taken out Team Green,

that is a sign that she's readying for war, the fact that she's in that armor. Alicent goes to stand in front of Agon. She sends Kristen to stand in front of Helena. Yes. Sorry, I just want to say really quickly that Rainius was in this hilarious cloak that was fooling no one because no one's hair looks like hers does and it looked exactly the same one of the cloak.

Okay, anyway, yeah. Yeah, so Allison goes to move in front of Aegrook. gone. She sends Kristen in front of Helena. Otto protects nobody, obviously. Really freaking fascinating inside the episode, explanation as to why Rainey's doesn't fire here. This is the big, like, debate and question coming out of the episode.

First of all, she does kill legions of small folk. So many people die. Thousands are dead. Either thrown from the eruption of Maly's through the floor, crushed beneath a clawed foot, any number of other things. Tons of people are dead. So why when Reneas inches forward, Malyse lets out her cry? And Reneas looks down at that day as does she not burn them all, Joe?

The fine folks who made this show have decided it's because she does not want to do that to another mother. That is what we heard from them as their explanation. Ryan Cottle also called it a great heroic moment from her character. Tell me. How many people do we think are dead? How many small folk died here? 100.

And this is like the, we made the Obi-1 Vader comp on Talk the Thrones. It's a little bit reminiscent in a much different way, of course, because Aria was her child. But like, one of the things people used to debate during Thrones was why didn't Aria use her wishes? And of course, they end up talking about it on the show. Why didn't Aria use her wishes to kill Tywin or Joffrey or Searcy, right?

So this like, these moments for the characters when they can potentially eliminate the great threat and they don't are always going to spark debate. The thing that I think really confounded both of us is that this is a show invention purely. And so like, if the answer to the question

is because if she kills everybody, there's no Dance of the Dragons. Of course, that is true. But then other than like, because it was really cool and was a great, exciting, thrilling, heart-pounding set piece, which it was.

Like, it was exciting to watch. But when you think about the character motivation and implication, why put the character in the situation where she's not going to do a thing or do a thing that doesn't quite make sense? If you needed a big dragon moment, I mean, Sunfire isn't as big as Malays, but like why not have Agon's beautiful dragon Sunfire

kill a bunch of small folk? If you want to make a point about dragons and their destructive behavior, because Targaryen kings and queens usually ride their dragons to their coronation. So like to have... And Agon Fly Sunfire in Fire and Blood, right? Right, right.

We have this email from... First of all, in a lighthearted defense of the inside the episode interviews, we got an email from Tim about... Some old episodes of a Dune podcast that Ryan Condal had done. While he's talking about Dune, he was talking about House of...

Dragon as well. And he says, he talked about wearing a leather jacket in all of his post of interviews because they film them in a blitz all in one day. So if these interviews don't seem like always entirely coherent, that's because they had to do them all in one day. So Ryan and Miguel are trying to say profound things about every moment of 10 episodes of television all filmed in one day. So I understand that sometimes this doesn't always work out. Matt, one of our listeners wrote in to say the Rainies Dragon Pit scene bothered him, but not because she didn't end the war with one word. The story had, meaning House of the Dragon, had up to that point, followed the text

faithfully while adding color and nuance to an unreliable narrative. But a dragon crashing the coronation is a departure from the history that destroys the conceit altogether. That scene, while undeniably cool, divorces the show from the book fundamentally. The history of the event is disputed, but only insofar. as the crowd size. There's certainly no body count. By no means turn off the show. Laney is a badassery. We're a great surprise for a book reader and actually a little

exciting knowing that the showwriters are willing to jettison the notion that this isn't an adaptation of the text, but time will tell. And so yeah, I mean, this is a premise-breaking incident. Lainer surviving, we're like, okay, maybe people didn't know or whatever. But I don't think any of our narrators would leave out the fact that a dragon bus it up from the floor of the dragon pit and interrupted the coronation killed literally hundreds.

We also got this comment from our pal Paula Fairfield who does a sound on the dragons. We've mentioned her a couple times before and she was talking about Males' scream. And she says, I like that it gets more and more intense and you get deeper and deeper into her throat. Also the chirp at the

beginning, she shut her firehole at the last second. First of all, love the phrase fire Thank you, Paula. But secondly, I mean, that's a nice, like, in case you were curious, like, a Drakaris thing very nearly happened here. It was not, you know, wasn't, Rainis was never going to do it. It was very, very close. So.

I don't want to sound like a bloodthirsty maniac when we were saying, like, should she have just shouted to Dacharas and burn them all? Maybe all of them. Maybe Otto, at least, let's get rid of Otto? But it was difficult not to think of Ned and the Madness of Mercy conversation with Varus. Because if Renice does not want to inflict that kind of loss or suffering or pain, first of all, I'd say again,

then don't burst through the dragon pit and kill 10,000. Landos. Because you're inflicting pain on someone there, for sure. But on the one hand, there's this highly ominous, this is what you have unleashed moment. That is an effective tone setter. But just the number of questions about why do this or don't do this, this is like setting the stage for us to look back on this. And I think it was with the Ned thing is not a one to one because what

Ned does, we understand why. We understand why completely. And that's what makes it tragic, that he really genuinely thought he was doing the right and noble thing. And, And maybe Renice does too and we'll get a chance to hear her talk about that more, but I will be fascinated to see how this all stitches together. You want to escape on Maly's. Totally, totally get that. You don't want to leave your dragon. Neither would I.

You're down in the tunnels. Like, fly out the door. And I mean, there could have been a really cool way to, like, there is a way to do this where hundreds of small folk don't get killed. And Allison has to watch Allison from her prison. out the window watch Rainies fly away on a dragon. So freedom. You know what I mean?

Absolutely. Yeah. To be like you're stuck back there with your deeply shitty son and your terrible father and Laris and Kristen Cole. Good luck to you. Your coolest child is Aymann Targaryen. Like, good luck. Yeah.

Anyway, I mean, so yeah, again, there are just beautiful moments of this episode. and I love the first 20 to 30 minutes. There's a lot of dread, a lot of tension, a lot of quiet that he really, really loved. And then I think they just felt like they needed some huge set piece for an episode nine. And I think they didn't really think it all the way through is how I feel about this.

Where are you sitting? So Pachnik said in the inside the episode, quote, we needed a penultimate scene. So we tried to come up with what's the worst thing that can possibly happen had a coronation and realized it was a dragon to be let loose. Now, I don't, just to be clear, like, I don't think inherently pursuing Grant Spectacle is a bad thing. Thrones at its peak routinely shocked and wowed us with the scope.

We're, of course, always going to be on the lookout for the moments where does the, it's the old, like, does the style ever feel like it's coming at the expense of the substance? So you always want the character motivations to, track in full inside of those big iconic jaw-dropping moments because when you have both of those things at once, then it's historically great TV. And I've been thinking a lot about, it's actually not my favorite episode, but there are moments of spoils of war, that episode of Game of Thrones that I absolutely love, which is DeNaris attacking Jamie and the loot train. But I think about that a lot because I was thinking about it in terms of the way in which the blacks and the greens or Allison Reneer have been set up as like the show is trying to give sympathetic paths to where they wound up

here for both of these women. I think they're trying. It's tough with some of the stuff that happens on both sides, but they are trying to make little changes here and there so that we're not just watching despicable people barrel towards disaster, but we're watching like people we care about. We watched them as young girls. We've watched what's happened to them, all that sort of stuff. And like, four spoils of war, we're meant to watch that episode and think about caring about DeNaris and caring about Jamie and what happens when those two forces come face to face.

And we watch Jamie bearing down on DeNaris, on Drogon, and we're like, we don't know. We're we're Tyrion, right? We're worried about everyone. Who to root for, right? And so. Right. Whereas when you watch this, you're like, Rennie's, tell Maly's to eat, although, do it. Yeah, you don't have to. Do it. It doesn't have to be a decorous.

Yeah, I was going to the full Palpatine. Do it. Just munches, you know what I mean? Like, have a snack. You know, something like that. Selective munching. Scoop them up in a talon. Oh, yeah. Take him, present him at Dragonstone for. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, boy. That would have been great. So again, but with spoils of war and some of the, some of the, like, finer moments, like, that's character and, and, and, and adrenaline and and, and adrenaline and and logic all wrapped up in a spectacle that makes a lot of sense to us. And then when the spectacle comes and it devours the logic, that's when, uh, we, we take some pause. But that being said, all of that being said, I am on pins and needles for next week's episode. Oh, my God, me too. And you and I were texting earlier about how we, like, one shot from the trailer made a lot of,

is literally cry. I think the finale is going to be amazing. Yeah. So, boy. Yeah. Okay. It is time,

Joe, for our episode awards. Rapid, rapid fire episode awards. Let's make the eight. Wig watch, best worst. I'm going to get best. I'm going to give to Amon's,

you know, Legolas wig, because I think it looks really slick and cool. And worse, but it's worse intentionally. I just want to say that the actor who plays Agon Targaryen is extremely handsome, and they have made him look so dissipated

with just like the circles that they put under his eye and his like rumpled blonde wig. So Agon, the second, his wig. What do you have to say? For best, I have Alicent, numerous different hairstyles across the episode. Phenomenal stuff. For worse, just to be clear,

I'm, the hair actually looks great and I love it. I'm simply awarding the car. Cargile twins, the Cargall twins worst because I wish they had styled their hair drastically differently so that it had been easier to track. That's all. They looked great though. They looked great. Yeah. Fit watch. Best worst. It's so funny because I almost put the Cargall cloaks for worse because I couldn't tell them for the same reason. Yeah. Great looking cloaks. Instead I went with Kristen Cole's dumb hat. And best being he's he's terrible. We're supposed to feel scary fascistic vibes from him, but Aegon's coronation fit.

It's my pick, too. It's a great look. Yeah. But we had the same picks for that. All right. Number three, they got bigger and bigger. Best bit of Dragon Dumb. I think it has to me learning the phrase firehole from our pal-pol of Fairfield.

And I'm going to be using it liberally. Love it. How about you? I'm going with Maly's bursting through the floor of the dragon. Which despite everything I said five minutes ago, it was like a holy shit moment when it happened. I was very much like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what? It's wild. And it looked, I mean, it looks really cool.

The way that the dust from the floor covered the effect of the dragon just made it look like really scary and cool. The moment when Raynees like inches into view through the haze of the smoke. Yeah, that was awesome. the doctrine of exceptionally weird a sex stuff I mean it's the feat it's a feat

it's a feat it's the feat okay if this show had Netflix subtitles I feel really bad not giving this to my guy bees

because this would be a great you know cranium cracks juice or something like that but I've got I've got velvet rubs urgently. I was really hoping that you would go for a Laris-Wank thing here. Proud of you.

Thanks. Proud of you. What'd you do? Feral children shrieking violently as cheek flesh rips crisply. Because it wasn't a wet ripping. It was kind of like a dry paper sound. Oh, a dry rip. Yeah, not a lot of moisturiser out in the Kingslanding chival.

wild fighting pits, I guess. Oh, boy. Best quote, Joe. I'm not going to try to be funny here. It's you desire not to be free, but to make a window in the wall of your prison. One incredible line. That's my pick as well.

Really great. Joe's most reliable narrator tracker. Fascinating episode for this. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one. Because we get sort of a new narrator enters the fray here. Grandmaster Monken.

has a document that enters a book that comes in here and Grand Master Orwell is one of the sources on this. We already mentioned him. He's the one who's like, hey, bees, cool it, right? Yeah. And the whole point of talking about that as a source is that Orlo was in the room where it happened. Unlike Mushroom and Eustis or whatever,

Orwell was in there. However, Orwell tries to be. to take credit for Beesbury's last stand. So Orwhile, though in the room, unreliable narrator. Mushroom, not even at Kings Landing and is making wild statements from Dragonstone

saying that Allison, like, poisoned Vassaris. Mushroom just, boy. So just by dint of not being overtly wrong about something and literally being in this episode, it's Eustace. Eustace wins. Great to see Eustace.

Really was. All right, Joe, I ask your favor. Who won this episode? Tough one, honestly. God. Olivia Cook for performance-wise. Phenomenal. Character?

I mean, like, Egon the second? He's king of the seven kingdoms? I'm going to go with Alicent because... Yeah, Allison's a good answer. It's tough. Allison's a really good answer. I mean, but I think she has a

where she's like, uh, what did I? I've made a grave error. Yeah. I mean, I hope so. I'd like to have an I have made a grave error sequence at some point here. Boy. Okay.

Uh, time to say farewell to some fallen friends. Death send off. Steve. Give us some Dracaris screeches for the bees. Lime and Beesbury. Tricares. Steve, give us some Dracara screeches for Alan Coswell. Dracares.

We're not giving Draccharis yet for the imprisoned lords and ladies. TBD on that. Steve, give us like, I don't know, 10 to 15,000 Dracaris screeches for the Allegiance of dead. If the Dragon Pit holds 80,000, and it was filled to the gills and we're at that like 100,000-ish part?

I mean, Maly's is pretty big. I was thinking hundreds, but okay, I'll go. The math on the floor is different from the math and the stands. Yeah. It's got to be like at least a thousand. I don't get floor seats to the coordination.

That's true. That's true. Well, Steve, give us, you know, a handful of Jukrya Scretius for the legions of dead who were trampled or exploded. by Mali's the Red Queen. Drakaris! No Drakars screeches yet for Masaria.

That's our formal ruling. Without a body, we hold off on the screech. Okay. Rest in peace, my Laris strong fandom. Okay. Oh, boy. Faceless man watch. It's the best.

Oh, my God, it's so good. I'm going to give it to the literal faceless hooded man who sets fire to Masarias. Yeah. And we don't see his face. Yeah. Or her. her face. Maybe it was Missaria herself, per your theory. Who knows? But, uh, love it. Yeah, I'm going with

that too. Mysterious arsonist. Okay. Great. Love it. Okay. It is time for our book. Look ahead. If you don't want to hear these final few minutes of the pod where we are talking about how this episode sets the stage for some of what is to come, you free to go. Thank you. Bounce. It's been lovely. Everyone else, it's time for a dance of dragon dreams. All right, Joe, where do you want to start here? now tens it's going to Storm Zen, right? This is what made us cry. Absolutely.

So we get an overt mention from Thailand. He says Storm Zen is of concern. We may not assume the loyalty of Lord Boros, but he has four daughters, all of them are married. The right proposal. This is setting up. Amen and Luke both being sent to Storm's End to try to secure Barathean allegiance

and the fatal fight above Shipbreaker Bay. That shot of Luke running toward. So in case you're in the spoiler section, in case you're in the spoiler section with us and you haven't read Fire and Blood, of which I know there are many of you, basically what happens is that Luke is sent by his mom.

I mean, he and Jay's volunteer. They want to go, and they want to go round up some allies for Rainira to shore up her cause. And he's like, I'll go to Storm's End, right? And throughout the season, we've gotten Borman Barathean being not a fan of Reneura, right? And so Amon shows up first and offers to a single, ready to mingle, Amon, shows up and

offers to marry one of the Barathean girls. And Luke shows up, just assuming that the Baratheans are going to be on their side because they're related to Rainis and stuff like that. And Bormon's like, eh, no. and we've already seen what happens when Luke giggled about a roast pig with Amon and Amon just takes this opportunity to take his vengeance on poor Luke

and Bournembrothin's like just not under my roof so Luke runs as we see in the trailer to his little dragon and then we see this terrifying shot in the trailer of Vagar looking like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park rearing up over the electric bends. I thought Godzilla. Yeah, it's like God's over too, for sure.

For sure. Monster in the Rain. Yes. We're getting a Monster in the Rain, Battle Over Ship Breakers Bay. Greg Etonis directed this episode, so hopefully we'll not be too dark to see. Vagar and Amund murdering poor sweet baby Prince Luke. And his beautiful dragon. And his beautiful dragon.

The first death of the dragons. Joe, we've been saying all season long we think this is where this is ending and the trailer confirmed it. I mean, that this is going to be the- real culmination of the season, I am going to be in tears. Like, with love of respect to Beesbury, this is the death

that really kicks off the dance because no more Mr. Nice Reniro once Luke does. There's no turning back to this. Yeah. One of my favorite parts of Fire and Blood is that even Otto is like, what were you thinking? Why did you do?

Joffrey taking that's head. You know what I mean? It's like, this is not what we do. Oh, no. All right, Amen. Here we go. We've also, the Brathians aren't the only prize on the table, though, right? Yeah.

Yeah. It was fun to hear the High Garden River and call out. And just in general, like, thinking about you've been tracking the Alliance math and getting those great consequential houses invoked was cool. So we should say, Luke goes to Storm's End. Jace goes to the Riverlands. but like eventually he goes to Winterfell. So my pal Megan O'Keefe on Twitter was like,

what if the last shot of the season is Jace landing at Winterfell? I don't want to skip the Riverlands, like, you know, so I don't know if they would do that, but like, you know, Luke dying at Shipwreckers Bay and Rainier finding out is a powerful ending. But like I think from a, hey, remember that show you liked? Showing Winterfell in the season one finale might be a thing. that they could do.

A great way to just like signal how big the story is going to be in season two. Yeah. Yeah. We're going all the way up to Montefel. I like that.

I like that a lot. Speaking of Thailand, by the way, as the person who mentions Storm's End, Peacebrain out as Master of Coin open job. And Thailand, Joe,

sliding into the master of coin role, but the seizing of the treasury, the dividing of the funds into these four, into these quarters. House Lannister, like, we always associate House Lannister with money, control of money in the realm. So I think this will be a thing that the viewers are. Right.

The audacity of this, by the way, Thailand Lannister, right? So it goes, one part goes to the Iron Bank of Bravo. One part goes to Castorly Rock. One part to Old Town. And the remaining wealth was used for bribes and gifts and to hire sell swords if you did. So Otto and Thailand are like, how will we send one quarter of the realm's riches to my house and your house? If I were iron rod, I'd be like, what the fuck, guys? I was right here with you every step in the way.

So right here. Oh, my God. Okay. Rainies and Millies. Yeah. Well, there's two benefits to this Rainies busts up through the dragon pit floor thing, right? One is when she dies at Rook's Ruse, the battle that will probably take place midway through next season, I would guess. I would think, yeah.

It's her versus like Amon and Agen. Yeah, so like the idea that she spares down here. Yeah, she spares them here and then they kill the shit out of her later. This is one of those things that like in the main section of the pie, you just want to be able to shout out loud. It's like, you're really going to regret this, like directly and personally, as will the realm as it bleeds and burns. arms. Yeah. Oh, boy.

Rooksters is going to be quite a scene. Excited for that sequence. I'm curious about Reneas' War Council role in general, because one of the things in the teaser trailer

for the finale is seems to be, obviously, Renice will go to Dragonstone, but seems to be like maybe playing the role of like cautioning against.

Well, looks like they're having a real Queen of the Ashes conversation. Yeah, power at the painted table. We've been there before.

Love a pow-out at the paint-to-table, right? Oh, boy. Also, I want to correct something I said in this section last week is, like, looking at some of the shots from the trailer, I do not think that's Harold Westerling at in the council. So I apologize for getting all of our hopes up. Sad. I think it's another Kingsguard. So, like, is this truly the last-ly seen of him?

It might be, you know? I'm not ready for that. I hope that's not the case. Not the last we're seeing of Masaria, though, Joe. Probably not. This would be a huge change. given how big her role is from here. We're not massive fans of this performance,

so it could be that she's been written out because maybe the character isn't working as well as they would hope, but, or maybe there will be a big turnaround in season two. Masaria is a really interesting figure in the book. She goes a long way. We are constantly vigilant on Blood and Cheese Watch, and so, like, the idea that Laris,

at the behest of Allison, burns down Masaria's B&B, could give her, added motivation to be particularly brutal in whatever instructions are given for blood and cheese, blood and cheese being probably something that will kick off season two that involves Helena and her children who we get a glimpse of in this episode.

Maylor hurt their child is, there are three streams of blood off of Helena and the intro. So, Malar is there. This is the continuation of having characters in the show who were not in the show is just, very strange. I just don't understand it. You put a little baby on the rug.

Why not? Just put a baby there. Anyway. Give the baby a bug toy. All right. What do you want to say about Aemond? Well, I just think, like, given how eager he is to rule in place of Agon, it's interesting to have that as a teaser for when he will serve as Prince Regent and

protector of the realm, because at Rook's Roos, which you just mentioned, And Agon is taken off the board for a while, grievously wounded and never the same again. Unfair, badly burned. Oh, boy. So we will get to see. We will get to see Aemond in a position of power, at least. I'm wondering if his whole thing for Helena, if indeed that's what the show is trying to do, if his whole soft spot for Helena means that like post-blooded cheese, him just like burning. the riverland, you know what I mean?

Like, if this is just his reaction to what happens with Helena, where he's like, I'm just going to burn it all down. That's going to be really heart-wrenching. People love Helena. She's sweet. She's great.

I mean, that is just going to be awful and very painful. I mean, but, like, and that's the question about Reneira is, like, in terms of, like, our softening of Reneer or not, like, how much is Reneer are going to be responsible for that, right? It could be, because it's Damon who says

a son for a son, right? So is it Damon doing it? And is it Masaria taking it too far? And Reneer is like, I never meant for that to happen? Or, I don't know, we'll see. Interesting. That season, probably. Interesting. Speaking of Damon. Well, yeah. Okay. So there's this quote from Otto who says, now there are two among the captains in the city watch that remain loyal to Damon. Damon's gold cloaks. It's, that's important for the future, the loyalty of Damon's gold cloaks in terms of a piece on the board here. But also in the trailer for Next, we'd get Otto and Damon on the,

on the bridge sequel that I never knew I always wanted. I'm not sure what Otto's doing there, but, I mean, giving the terms of the deal, I guess. But we'll see. I don't understand how they would, like, let him go. Yeah. Damon, we know inside of the show is not a character who cares about, like, a good faith parlay.

He waved the white flag and then, killed everyone. That being sad, like unlike, I mean, I know just described a scenario would that not be the case, but unlike, I want to say, in contrast to Allison and her like monsters on a shaky leaf, leash sort of thing, that clip that sort of went viral last week of Renera giving a very subtle nod to Damon to take Vaman's head off, I feel like if Reneera said to not kill Otto, he wouldn't kill Otto. Damon wouldn't kill him if Rainer said not to. And if Renier, because it seems like she's contemplating it because we get that line in the trailer where Damon's like,

you're not going to bend the knee to the high towers. They stole your birthright. It seems like Reneer cares less about it than Damon does, right? I don't know. And we still haven't gotten the, from like the main preseason trailers, the dreams didn't make his kings, dragons did moment. So that's going to be probably, I would presume like a central conversation between Damon and Rainira about the state of their claim, the prophecy, what is tied up in it, etc. That'll be... How are you feeling about dagger watch that Agon has the dagger?

And as you say, are you, like, worried that Kristen Cole's going to drop it in a fire? I'm worried that fucking drunk Agon is going to drop it in the fire. Like, stumble, fall over, knock it into the fire, and accidentally learn about the song of ice and fire. What a disaster. Get that away from him. Oh, boy. What about Lairz?

So, Laris is in the green council in fire and blood. This is a change. And he's master of whisperers. So, like, will he become, will he take over? This is tied into the question of what happens with Masaria. Like, is this when he formally becomes master of whisperers? I feel like he's on the small council as of next week. Yeah.

Kristen Cole is head of the Kingsguard. Like, Allison's putting her all of her, like, monsters in the room. And he's already been, like, her spy master. but will he just, because that line he had about how, you know, they're like the, the, the, the, the, you get rid of the queen and the bees fly without purpose. Like, he will then try to take those bees to co-opt this network and give them purpose. And that becomes. Greatness for Talia. Oh, my God.

That becomes Laris's Master of Whisperer's Network, I would think. So that'll be interesting. A crown for, yeah. Oh, boy, Joe. Yes. Eric. Okay. So the crown.

Vassarish's crown. We see it in the teaser for next week. It's also in the book that Vesaris's crown is stolen, taken. Now, Eric has been with Reneira for literally years at this point in fire and blood, so that's all very different. But we see him presenting it to her. So we feel like Eric is going to... So Eric smuggles Rainees out of Kings Landing. Oops, loses her. Oops, there's a mass casualty at the coronation, sneaks back. into Kingsland. I have to assume he has it already. I was looking for a fanny pack or a satchel or something that would fit a crowd in it.

I didn't see it, but maybe he has it already. The Dragon Pit, this is the other thing, right? So the way in which the Dragon Pit incident will relate to Rook's Rest next season is one thing. But the main thing is a big part of the dance is the fact that the dragons, in inflict so much damage on the populace that the people rise up and are responsible for the death of a ton of dragons in the dragon pit because people are like, we're tired of getting roasted. Thank you very much by your stupid Targaryen war. So the mass casualty does have a reason.

It's not just there for no reason. It will motivate this movement later. And I'm sure like when that movement rise up, people will be like, I lost my father at the coronation sort of thing. These dragons are a terror. They need to be contained. In Rhenyce's heroic moment. Yeah. Where she spared another mother.

It's a cool character moment for her. But so that, you know, that has to all be leading up to that. And I think also I'm curious that the Agon Bastard thing is going to pay off more, right? Because we meet one little one, but, like, are there older ones? because there are, you know, Pretender Kings out there in the city. So we'll see. And then also,

Otto keeps yelling, open the doors, open the doors, open the doors. And I was just thinking about Allison locking this city. This is, like, I think one of the worst things that Allison does

is when people are trying to flee Kings Landing and she locks them in. So I don't know if they're going to have show Allison do that. But as far as book Allison moves go, that's a tough. It's a tough look. We'll walk him in.

All right. We did it. No, come on. Last but not least. We're not going to talk about it a lot because it is nothing to do with the book and we don't know what to say about it. We just have to mention the fact that Matt fucking Smith, the 11th doctor himself, Prince Philip, star of Morvious. It's morbid time. Sing some sort of lullaby to a dragon, probably Vermithor, in Pheliorian.

next week. You think it's Vermithor? You think it's the cannibal? What's your bet? I wanted it to be the cannibal, but like you and a lot of other people think it's Vermithor and you guys are probably right. I just love the cannibal. But like, Vermithor makes sense because, right, they're trying to like, all the wild

riderless dragons are trying to, Damon's like, oh, I could do dragon math. Guess what we got? Some wild dragons. Seeing the cannibal would be incredibly cool. And just in the trailer the glimpse of like the nature of that dragon's head and teeth, there is like a real wild dragon energy to it. it. But the strategic play of going for Jeharis's dragon would be an amazing thing to do in the finale. But I'll take

any of them. Any of them. There are so many dragons that are just hanging out in the mont. And if Damon wants to repel down and then do just like a full blown zies musical number down there. I think we'll get a dance. Dance of the drag. I mean, like, you know that in those ancient. You know those ancient. Targaryian tomes that he read in Pentos, there was like, here's some weird songs you can sing. Also, here's a diagram of a weird little dragon dance that you could do to lull them. Yes. With his little torch?

Come on. No, he's not going to dance, but he should. Beautiful. Well, I cannot wait to watch the finale. I cannot wait to talk about it with you. I can't believe the season's almost over. I'm devastated. What a joy it's been.

What a joy it's been. That's going to be heart-wrenching. Very tough. Very sad. All right. Let the people remember the ancient strength of Halsevar. That is a wrap on today's episode. Thank you to our dragonlords.

Steve Alman for producing this episode. Regina Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode and Joe Mia Denneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember to send us your emails at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. We will see you on Friday for our Andor episode seven deep dive. And then again on Sunday night, touch later than usual, for our hot D finale instant reaction.

The Midnight Boys will be with you tomorrow for Andor episode seven. Until then, we understand your squeamishness. Papi music goes here.

Intro song. Now, Steve does, producing. Can I please just like put that over our opening theme? That's just for you, buddy.

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