The Ringer-Verse - 'House of the Dragon' Episode 9 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson give their thoughts and reactions to the penultimate episode of 'House of the Dragon' Season 1 and how the characters in Westeros still have the ability to shock us as The Dance of the Dragons begins. Hosts: Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I have some good news for you. The hottest take. It's back. Oh yeah. Monday through Thursday, four times a week. You hear from me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy, Mallor Rubin, Wazding Lambrey, Van Lathan, Julie Lipman. Many other ringer staffers. You get one take. You got a defendant to the death. Sports takes. Pop culture takes. Food takes. Airplane takes. Oh, yeah. It's coming back. First episode drops. August 29th. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matter. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it, presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Boershead committed to craft since 1905. Oh, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. My name is Chris Ryan, and I am an editor at the ringer.com. Joining me as always as Ringer Senior Staff writer, Joanna Robinson, as well as someone who does not have a same game parley on tonight's children's fight club,

but the night is still young. It's Valerie Rubin. What's up, guys? Oh, Chris, this is treason. This is theft. Hey, we just watched an episode of House of the Dragon. It was the penultimate episode of House of the Dragon for this season. It was called The Green Council.

It was written by Sarah Hess and directed by Claire. Kielner and Joanna. Why don't she tell me what you thought the biggest moment of this episode was? It's tough to beat an enormous dragon

coming up from the bottom of the dragon pit and killing a bunch of commoners. But I actually think it's the conversation between Rainies and Alice. Actually is what stands out to me in this episode.

And because of dramatic, like the dramatic flare with which it was written or because of the long-lasting impact you think that that conversation's going to have? I think what we got in this episode was as much of an insight

into Allison as we've ever gotten in terms of her thought process. And I think that Rainey's saying, yet you toil still in the service to men, your father, your husband, your son, you desire not to be free, but to make a window in the wall of your prison, how you never imagine yourself on the Iron throne. Great, well-performed, great, great dialogue. But I think in that final moment, when Rainy's busts out of the floor of the Dragon Pit kills, let's not gloss over it, many people, but fails to kill the people committing a coup. I know.

The moment seems to be, I'm trying to understand her thought process is there, and I think it's because Allison steps in front of Agon, and Rainey's more than anything, looks just disappointed in her for, like, standing in front of her fail son in that moment. And so I think it's just sort of like, you toil and service to men,

your father, your husband, your son. Like, that's the dynamic at play here. And the question of what it's going to mean for Allison and her side going forward. Again, it's hard to argue with the dragon. It's hard to argue with the dragon bursting through the floor. Mallory, what would you say? I can't believe we made it more than 10 seconds into this podcast without talking about Laris. It's not actually my pick, but I can't in consciousness.

Allow us to go further without saying. Laris Foot guy. Yeah, I think that Joe's pick is a great one. I can't wait to spend 30 minutes of this podcast talking about how Rehnese is our new Obi-1 Canobi, just leaving Vader out there to go conduct his galactic horrors. But, you know, the Green Council keeping Viseris' death a secret for long enough that Agon could be crowned king of Westeros in front of tens of thousands of people despite Probably now just about 5,000 after the dragon.

Yeah. It's true. A good couple thousand at least are off the board there. Population control, you know. Despite Reneer being Viseras's stated chosen heir for two decades, is a notable thing that happened in this episode. Don't think we could really overstate the significance of that. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, I think you could argue the series just started. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for like your basic understanding of the Dance of Dragons and, like, the Targaryen Civil War and

everything else that, like, you kind of have maybe skimmed over as you were going into the series. It starts now. What's your pick, Chris? Yeah. Is it your time with Eric and Eric? I think it was Kristen Cole wearing the same hat I wear in Los Angeles between December and March. No. I think it was definitely, it was definitely the foot stuff.

That was like, I was just like, there's my guy. Because I, you know what was cool about that? We're not cool. But, like, what that was was, I was like, Game Thrones still has it. Game of Thrones still has the capacity to surprise, you know, and that's really all I can ask for at this late stage of my life and the twilight of my Game of Thrones watching days. Just keep, keep shocking me, baby. I love it, you know?

Because they come through with, like, kid fight club, with kids with their, like, teeth filed down. You're like, eh, and then you're like, oh, but the feet are out. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was wondering, what's in this for Laris? And then we find out. Why don't I recap the episode

and we can get into dragons bursting through the floor and feet and everything else? I have a bunch of Smith's quotes here because I was going to do a king is dead but even though their album is called the Queen is dead. But the king is dead, boys. Thank God that Talia, the Walter Cronkite of Westrose, has passed the word to the high towers

so that they can start a civil war. Seems like the small council has been planning for Agon to take the throne from Renera all along. All except Lord Beesbury who makes a loud protest before Kristen introduces him to the small council's retirement plan. Worth noting also that Allison was not in on this long-term planning despite being the queen. The small council makes a plan to kill Damon and Reneer prompting a change in Kingsguard leadership. Problem with all of this is Agon is nowhere to be found.

So Kristen and a really nondescript blonde guy with an eye patch go out into the red light district to look for him. As do two dudes both named Eric, no, I will not be learning to distinguish between the two of them. We get a real Rick Steve's guide to Silk Street. It's brothels. It's adolescent fight clubs. Still no Agon. The Eric brothers are having a crisis of loyalty when Aman and Kristen talk about how hard it's going to be to be insaled to teachers' pets.

J.K., I kind of like these two together. Allison goes to lobby Renice for Driftmark support appealing to her grief over being passed over for the crown. Renice flips the script, saying the quiet part loud, that Allison is the one who wants to rule Westrose. back in FBS, what we call Flea Bottom, if you're a local. Masaria pops up, having taken absolutely no notes on her accent, and demands a trade from Otto Hightower.

He can have the prince back, but he has to end the traditional UFC for Kids' Night at the local dance hall. The Erics, who are working for Otto, find Aegon, but there's some division in the Eric camp. When Kristen and Amon, who are working for Allison, confront them, there's a sword fight, and one Eric leaves the other to fend for himself.

I got to say, poor form. from Eric, not really living up to the name Eric, in my opinion. Speaking of Division, Otto and Allison are disagreeing about how to arrive the same goal, which is the transfer of power to Agon. Otto doesn't mind breaking some eggs to make an Agon omelet. Allison wants to offer her near terms and spare her life. Laris and Alice, neat to discuss the news that Talia, the conspicuous lady in waiting, is actually a big snitch.

And Allison takes this in and then Laris jerks off while looking at her naked feet. Game of Thrones. still got it. One of the Eric's secrets Reneas out of town. Agon asked the question nobody thought to. If dad wanting me be king,

why didn't he mention it in some time over the last 20 years? He slowly warms to the idea of being king when he sees a million faces and rocks them all at his crowning. Everything is going great, but then Raney's burst through the floor on the back of a dragon.

She has a chance to incinerate the usurpers but chooses nonviolence and flies out the doors only after killing, probably 2,000 people, presumably Reneas is on her way to tell Reneira the good news. That's where we're at. We have not seen clips from next week at the season finale. Remarkable.

Thank you. Remarkable work. I try to be really, really. You should be king. You lived all the way up to my hope that you would lean into not telling the difference between the two, Erick's. Oh, the Eric's. The show did you no favor.

Mallory received no fewer than 20 texts or me trying to. boiled down how I felt like we could tell the difference between the two erics in this episode. It's honestly, like, offensive to my intelligence. Like, I'm just not going to waste time trying to figure these two dudes out. One's on the fence, the others into the blacks, right? Yeah, two brothers divided, household divided. Eric and Eric. Eric with an E is the one who bounces and has been... But you don't know that unless you have like close captioning on it. You can tell which one of them is talking, right? Listen to House of R for three hours. Yes, of course. They are wearing very slightly different cloaks.

And the piping is distinct. And once you hear Eric with an EVE for the first time voices doubt about Agon, then you can track. Oh, he's the one with more of the wide piping on the outside, more of the gray cloak. Eric has more of the brown cloak and the thin piping. Honey, what are you doing in there? Oh, I'm just trying to tell the difference between two guys who just showed up on this nine episode, in the ninth episode of the show. And they're completely determining where things are going. Oh, you got a scene with Allison's and Eric with an Enoch.

last week, Chris, you're good. That's right. Mallory Rubin legitimately has a text message for me saying, I think it comes down to the cloak trim. Good. That's how you tell the difference. Gloke trim. They couldn't just give it. Why don't you give one of them a braid?

Why do they both have low man buns? Why doesn't one of them have a shorter beard? Any, any effort. Anything. Can I talk about one last thing about Eric and Eric? Yeah, of course. Basically, Eric has been Agon's like sworn, like, Kingsguard and he's just like try and tell his brother this guy sucks and shouldn't rule.

Have you heard of King's fight club? Wait till you see him when he gets out in the flea bottom. Joanna, one of the things that really leapt out at me about the beginning of this episode, I actually thought this episode was pretty entertaining in the sense that it let Olivia Cook, pun intended. And she, this is a real like showcase episode for Olivia Cook running around trying to like align different factions with what the way she sees the transfer of power going but I thought it was notable that nobody uh nobody was like hey what did vassaris totally say right like they were just like obviously there was this intention by the greens to probably install agon in the first place but we didn't get into any of the um sort of dreamy poetics of

Viseras's last words, and I wonder whether that's coming in the next episode, obviously we don't know. But like any kind of interrogation of this last second change in succession plan. Right. I expected Allison to grapple with it a little bit more, but she was just sort of like immediately all in on like this was his dying wish. And so I'm going to fulfill it. And I was surprised by that. I do think she probably should have taken the wording of it to her daughter, Helena, who is a, who is an expert in weird prophecy language. And maybe he'll be. and I could have helped her. But no, I mean, what I like about it is that is challenged a couple times, not examined

closely, but sort of like, you know, when Beesbury's like, I'm sorry, what? I know this guy. I knew this guy in his whole life. Yeah. Yeah. And Agon's like, my dad hates me. What are you talking about, mom? Like, what are we talking about here?

So I do like that a bunch of people are like, isn't it convenient that this happened? And I think it is too, I think the people who are. aren't interrogating it more like auto, et cetera, are not doing so because it just like, they're like, well, this helps. We don't have to convince Allison. Vesaris did that in his milk of the poppy haze. But yeah, it would have been nice if someone would have been like,

Allison, you know there are multiple agons, right? In the history. Like, are you sure? There's two agons currently living in our family. Are you sure he was talking about that one? Valerie, what did you make of the way in which this news traveled around? And I guess the other thing that I was really struck by was, you know, this group on the small council

just being like, that is super convenient because we have been planning on this the whole time. Right. Yeah, I mean, Otto goes full Bormir. It is a gift, full little finger up in the veil. I have brought you a gift. He has left us a gift.

So they have no motivation to interrogate what Allison's is telling them, Chris. Like, I think that the characters who are inclined to do that, Beesbury, his head is turned into, a jello mold by Kristen Cole. That doesn't inspire a lot of others to act in kind. Even Sir Harold, who folds up his cloak and exits, you know, the kind of Barriston Selmy

move. Obviously, Selmy was cast out and then made his stand, whereas Harold is asked to do something that he finds unsavory and refuses. There are challenges to what is unfolding, but broadly this is a manifestation of the structure of the episode, which is that the actual opponent. The true, true, true opponents are not in this episode of television at all, the penultimate episode of this season. You know, Reignis is a real exception there as somebody who is truly not aligned. And I think in some ways it's interesting to have dissension in the ranks, given how much of this story hinges on, you know, Joe and I have talked about this a lot this season.

The George R. Martin fascination with that Faulkner idea of conflict inside the human heart. There's a lot of that with Allison in particular inside of this episode. But it's ultimately a debate of degree inside of this episode, inside of the Green Council, inside of the King's Guard, inside of the Cargile twins. You have people who are working toward, and Eric obviously bounces. But people, Allison and Otto, encapsulate this divide in the episode, who are both working toward finding Agon and making him king. The outcome that they're pursuing is broadly the same.

The particulars, how many other people should we kill, are what divide them. So not a lot of people are interested in challenging the exact language. It helps them. I agree with that. And I do think it's really

fascinating. This is like an all team green episode. But I do think that division that like, because we get not just the Eric and Eric, Eric and Eric,

brother versus brother there, but brother versus brothers Amon and Agon, right? And then we've got within the Kingsguard, as you mentioned, that division. And Eric and Eric.

And so, and Eric and Eric. And Spy Maths spy versus spy, right? Masaria and Laris. So I think, like, to try to show us that even without Reneira there, and what I like also what this episode captures really well is, this moment in the book where when Agon is crowned, the crowd is sort of like, what? Yeah, but they're like, okay. Or like some of the lords are faithful to Reneira, you know, and get hang hung and some of them are. And so I think it's really smart to show us that even here at the center of the green power, there's all these fractures.

And I do want to just circle back really quickly because I'm so glad that Mallory invoked our guy, Bereson, Selmy. Because I just want to shout out the ways I think it's very cool to quit the Kingsguard. Because I feel like Harold Wesleyan kind of quiet quit a little bit, you know what I mean? Very neatly folded up this cloak. He rejected his return to office. Yeah. Barriston goes, here, boy, throws his sword on the ground, melt it down and add it to the others. Yeah. And Sandor Klegain iconically says, fuck the king's guard, fuck the city, fuck the king. So I just have notes for Harold on his like exit words. I think we could have gone saltier if we wanted to.

But I can't believe that like Kristen Cole gets a promotion out of that. Like drops a guy's head on a on a giant marble and gets a promotion out of it. I need Kristen Cole to go to some anger management classes. I need it. One more note on the actual death of Vassaris and what happens. And I want to agree with both of you in the sense that one of the criticisms of this show this year has been the leaps forward in time and sort of a disjointed timeline. And I thought that the show benefited from a very compressed everything in your seeing matters, like from scene to scene and from moment to moment.

like what happens in this scene is going to affect the next scene and not it's going to affect something that happens six years from now or 10 years from now. I thought that was like a very good energy for this show to have. There was something very subtle about the way in which it's sort of discovered that he's dead where I was under the impression leaving last week's episode that Allison was aware that he had died. Was she pretending to have not known that or was, did you guys think that at all

or was that just my misread of that? I think she gets her marching words. and then we get the final blinks and wheezes from Vassaris. So like... But she doesn't think he's going to be like awake the next day when she hears that, right? Like she doesn't think he's going to be alive the next day. She's like, oh, great. These are the ultimate last words I wanted to hear.

I'm out. She's not like, I can't imagine that she's shocked that the bag of bones that she's been married to for like, you know, the past 20 years is not here anymore. But what I do think is interesting about Alice in this episode, first of all, there's a massive differences for, from the book accounting to this episode. Allison's concern for Reneira is completely show-invented, and we've been talking a lot about how Reneer is getting sort of a hero wash.

And so I think giving Allison a little bit of a hero wash in this episode, because in the book, she says stuff like mayhaps, the whore will die in childbirth because, you know, Reneer is pregnant. Like, that's what book Allison is doing in this moment. Or at least what the men who are passing down in history. The men who wrote this book say that Allison said. I kind of would have been kind of down to hear that. That would have been sick.

Right. But I think that, so but I think in this version, like the Allison that we see cry a couple times, I think she's genuinely sad for Vassaris to be dead. Yeah, for sure. And also, and I hope this really came across you, Chris, because this is very important. He smells awful. And there's like one sequence where Allison is crying, but also mostly just has a hangariff. Shubbed up to her nose.

face because they just let the king rot for a while. 9,000 candles not masking the stench of the rotting corpse. I have to say, though, if we're being frank, how could he have smelled while he was still alive with just 5,000 gaping sores on his body? Yeah, that's the thing, is that like, you know, you're talking about something that's already dry aged, you know? Now, let's talk about the dragon in the room, which is Renis. bursting out of the floor like we talked about in the beginning of the podcast.

On the back of her dragon names. Red Queen. Mayleys. Maylees. God. Love to see Maly's get into action. You were about to say Males, right? Between that and like three others. But you know, you have that moment where Reneas comes through the floor and kills a lot of people doing so. And then is just on the precipice of ending this whole thing right there. She can burn up Allison. She can burn up Otto. She can burn up Kristen. She can burn up Amen and Agon. Like, Allison is getting her soul ready.

Like, she's just like, here we go. Eyes closed. Yeah. Why does her news let her live? I don't know the answer to the question. And I think it's pretty strange. I really like Joe's Reed from the top of the pod about the disappointment that she would be feeling looking down at Allison's moving into that protective stance, allowing all of this to happen. And I'm excited to talk more about Allison and

the dissonance that she is experiencing and what is motivating her various decisions, including the appeal that she makes to Reynese and Reinez's response, I think that there are moments like this in stories and sometimes the answer is as simple as because the story has to unfold from here. Right?

Like if Reinez says Dracarus and the Red Queen incinerates the entire green faction, then there's not a dance of the tree. dragons, there's not a house to the dragon, there's not a show. But then my question becomes why put the character in that situation other than like, it's cool, right? It's cool. It's cool. It was definitely cool. Hey, beast beneath the board. We heard it last, boards. We heard it last week. We heard it again from Helena this week. We have a couple prophecies paying off in this episode, including, of course, Vesaris's prophetic dream to Emma in the first episode. Our son was born

wearing Agon's Iron Crown. Not their son, but here's Agon and his Iron Crown in every line of that prophecy, the bells tolling, the dragons roaring, all of that comes to fruition here. So we should be tracking Targaryen dreams very closely. The things that these characters are saying and their prophetic visions are coming true. Reneas isn't just escaping on Mali's. Like, she's changed outfits. She's got her war kit on. She is ready. She's in armor. She is readying for battle. And the very dramatic upending of what is happening there that's absolutely farcical coronation that is also incredibly smart and savvy from Allison's perspective. She understands what lends the air of credibility and validity. Every symbol around Agon in that moment, right?

The Septan is performing the ceremony. He has Agon the conqueror's crown on his head. He's holding Blackfire. He's got the dagger. All of this. And Allison, who's rejected a lot of these Targaryen symbols, is the one who says this is important. And all of the people, of Kings Landing. The one that's, I'm a sorry, I likes to talk about to Otto, right? The people, they have to be there to bear witness to this. This has to be official and sanctioned. Reneas is upending that in full by saying, here's the real Targaryen power. And you still don't understand that. But I think Allison is starting to, and that's interesting too, because she, one of the parts of her pitched Raines is your dragon. Yeah, she's doing a dragon swings the

math in a fundamental way, which is a huge, huge, huge change for Allison's position. But I think just that dragon erupting from the earth and the fear that every single person sword and hand, crown on head or not feels in that moment is the point of that sequence. If you're on a dragon, you can do what you want, including fly away. Yeah, I mean, I love when Mallory is listing all the items that are there, that is essentially like a paraphrase from fire and blood, like, you know, which George Arm Burton calls that, every visible symbol of legitimacy, right? The crown, the sword, like, all of that sort of stuff.

But, yeah, Rainis is being like, this is the real war, by the way, and this is what you have invited by doing this. Like, I don't think she, because she's a Targaryen, I don't think she actually cares about killing a bunch of commoners. But if she did, she's like, this is the point. Yeah. You say this is for the realm. This is what's about to happen to the realm.

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I think if I, I think we've talked before about there's a sort of limit to the perspective of House of the Dragon that I think Game of Thrones pushed past where a lot like of Game of Thrones took place in and among the people who were being ruled by the people we were watching. I mean, even if it was Tyrion just going out and about into Flea Bottom, or if it was getting to go see the North and getting to go see who Rob was commanding and why they might be into him and stuff like that, I thought it was always really effective to be able to show the totality of this place rather than just the most powerful people.

And they've been kind of absent, for the most part, from House of the Dragon. They get invoked a couple of times in this episode. you know, Allison specifically is really like seems to be like it's not that I want my son to be the king, it's that I think this is best for the realm. You know, this is like what we have to do for the people. And or at least that was my feeling

of when she's talking to her father. And then on top of that, you know, that Masaria scene, while somewhat unintentionally hilarious, is also about like you guys have to do certain things to keep the peace here because like the way in which you treat everybody here is going to lead to problems.

down the line. Like, you can't, you can't have us, like, fighting one another for your entertainment indefinitely and not expect some, uh, some kind of consequences. The funniest thing about not funny, but like, what happens when Reni's burst through this floor is, I want to know whether or not anybody's going to be like, uh, yeah, you guys killed a bunch of people making your escape. Like, we're throwing our lot in with the greens. Like, the greens have like the sort of popular, you know, I guess momentum of the people of Westrose behind them. I mean, it'll be, you Interesting to see whether they grapple with it. It's not so much a question as it is an observation.

If you're going to introduce people, quote, unquote, to the show, you do have to sort of like think about what happens when a bunch of them get killed or a bunch of them get lied to or whatever. And I think that's been a reasonable criticism of the show that, like, it has felt a little suffocatingly insular to the Targaryen family and all that. And as you say, like, if this is the start of the war, the start of the dance, the start of the story, like we're definitely going to be spreading out beyond the Red Keep,

beyond Kings Landing more as we go forward. But I do think the attempts to introduce characters like Masaria and Talia, etc., which who could represent that faction of, that slice of the populace, has been sort of some of the least effective stuff that the show has done. And I end up missing some of those characters that we got that, you know, That's a huge missing link from Thrones. But there is opportunity going forward for them to do a much better job of that. But I feel bad that I complain about characters like Talia Masaria when like that is the show doing what I'm asking it to do, which is give me more of the people, you know?

I think though that I really agree. And I think it's the it's the other half of Chris's point from earlier about the absence of the time jumping in this episode. you're really contained in this finite period of time, you're moving from conversation to conversation moment to moment, you feel the consequences of those decisions in a way that's effective. The problem is that the time jumping before led to this, which is like so many,

so many of the central figures in this episode are not characters we've spent any meaningful time with. And they have a huge bearing on what is unfolding. So Masaria having what is intended to be one of the, really seismic, not only plot moments of the episode, the conversation with Otto, everyone bearing witness where that leads everybody on their hunt. But this speech about ethics and morality. And power. Yeah, in power. We've had a couple moments with Masaria, certainly, where we've gotten to glimpse the way that she thinks about these things, including, you know,

probably most germane for the setup here. We've had three moments. The conversation with Damon in episode two about what the, what the, the Tardarians and these people in power think that they can do and her pursuit of liberation from fear. And then there was the fake baby on the bridge, right? Right. But like, yeah, this is not a character who has played a meaningful role in the story. Talia has been in the show, but do we know anything about Talia? Do we know a single thing about what's motivating Talia? No. Eric and Eric, we've already gone through the bits there. They have a huge amount of this episode is on their shoulders. We've spent almost no time with them. Even in the small council and the Green Council,

I think it is fascinating and important to show that there's debate and disagreement inside of the same camp. It would not be an interesting story if it was simply Greens versus Blacks and everybody inside of both of those teams agreed on everything. Some of the most compelling moments in Game of Thrones ever are when John and Sonsa are characters who are supposed to be in his mind working their way. Or Robin's mother, yeah. Yeah, Rob and Kat, exactly, who are deeply invested in a shared outcome are incredibly opposed in a specific. moment, that's theoretically strong storytelling. Ironrod, Thailand, Orwell, the characters who play essential, essential roles of what is unfolding in this plot coming to light are not characters that we've spent very much time with on the show. So I think that the jumping around, like,

we could have gotten more time with those characters in the moments in between to better understand how they came to occupy these current positions. And also, of course, in the time jumping, we could have crucially witnessed the first moment where Larry, Strong said to Allison, I'll tell you what you want to know if you let me jerk off while looking at your feet. Should we get to see that? Should we just do that? Should we just do this now? Sure. The patience and restraint that we have collectively shown. I'm astounded. So Joe, this is not canon. Am I right?

It is now. Just tell the listeners that this was the first thing you texted us. Let's just go behind the garden. Yeah. Was this canon? Is this in the books? It is the bookstaff canon. So I found this whole thing fascinating. I would say that for the, I would say they have put Allison in a lot of very contemporary situations over the course of this season, both in ways that make her sympathetic and ways that make her seem villainous.

Obviously with the chamber made that her son assaults the week before, where she's like, I believe you, but who else would believe you? and like with the paying her off, there's obviously like when she's played by Emily Carey, when she's younger, the just grotesque scenes of her being in bed with Vassaris

and like the look on her face. She's been surrounded by volatile, like unstable men for most of her life. Apparently they all have very specific sexual proclivities. But I was kind of fascinated by this episode specifically because I thought that while she's probably like sitting there

at the end of the night just being like, how did I draw this lot in life that these are the guys around me? At the same time, she knows exactly how to play them. So she appeals to Kristen's white knighting. Yeah. And he's like, you know, if you've ever, take everything you feel about me and go do this mission for only me, not for my father. And then with Laris, you know, I always is just kind of like,

I guess I can see what's going on here. Like, you know, he's kind of blackmailing her a little bit because he killed his father and his brother for her. They both kind of have equal amounts of dirt on each other. He helps her. She helps him, I guess. And then I was like, oh. Yeah.

And we were all like, oh. And so when you say, oh, Joe. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's so astute. I think, first of all, what's hilarious to me is that Mallory and I both noticed that Allison took her shoes off. And the last time we saw them have dinner, but we were like, oh, what an interesting way to show that they're comfortable with each other. That's what I thought.

It was just like it's been a long day. She's been running around. What's sweet summer children? We were. And then when she did it here, I was like, oh. Like when she, as soon as she started, I was like, oh, no. And it's, it moves in stages. The stocking.

The stocking. Yeah, yeah. The stockings off. Then you put them in the place of prominence on the side. On the shes. Yeah. Yeah, make sure they're in the light. Okay.

So here's, here's the thing. that I think is interesting thing about Allison is like the first lesson her father Otto teaches her that we get to see is put on your dead mom's dress and go seduce the king and this is our path to power right? So

Allison understands that her best path to power is somehow sexualized right? So she is there is definitely a frisson of that or maybe even more of that when she's talking to Kristen who then later is like

every woman is in the image the, I was like, also all women C-WRimer. I hate him. That was astounding. When even Amund is like, okay, man. Relax. Yes, exactly. R-E-L-A-X.

So her manipulating, if you want to say that or, you know, whatever, Kristen that way, and her doing this terrible foot stuff with Laris. And we, I love the way that that's shot, right? Because we pan, we start to see exactly. what Laris is doing, like the hand goes under the tunic or whatever. But we don't have to watch that. What we're watching is her face and her extreme discomfort, knowing that this is like what she feels like she has to do in order to get whatever

scraps of power that she can grab. And then within this episode, even when she has her like, showdown with Otto, she's like, we're never aligned. I win. You lose. In this kind of, you know, confusing game that we're playing here of grab the game from a game of Thrones even. Yeah, one might say.

And he says you look like your mother. Yeah. You know, and it's just like takes us right back to her as a teenager, put your mother's, your dead mother stress on. I enjoy how twisted this episode was. Yeah, and goes to do think that there, like, Alison understands that her path to power is connected to her sexuality. What I like about that in this episode is that it's not she, like, fucks Kristen Cole and she

fucks Laris. it's much more like subtle and by degrees with each of them. Because I think if it were Thrones and Circe, like Circe would just have sex with who she needed, you know, to get them to do with somebody else be killed whatever she wanted, you know? Right. And they're like this is even like stickier and weirder what's going on with Alison here. But again, it's her trying to carve that window in her prison.

How do I find power given that I was sold off to this moldering king and have to be like pinned under him in bed? okay, I can move the things this way and that. And I just like, I have question marks about this episode, but I think that that Kristen Laris, two absolutely unhinged dogs that she barely has on a leash, being her team is so interesting. Those guys should get an apartment together.

That would be cool. Well, what I really like is, because I do not think they're, they each think they are Allison's most special boy. And I can't wait to find out. I can't wait to find out when they like. understand that they're not the only one. You can definitely see a little Princess Bride action happening where one's like got the wits and

the others got the strength that I would love to just see how they decide decide who's best there. Mal I have to confess. I don't know that I understood. I'm sorry, do you want to keep talking about feet? Well, I was wondering if you were going to keep talking about feet because we just were and then

you said, I have to confess. And I had no idea where we were going with us. It's a safe space and you can share whatever you'd like. I didn't quite grasp the point of the dueling find Agon missions. Other than I assume Otto would have been like, I got Agon and now I can just have Reneer murdered. And Alice, it was like, I've got Agon, now you have to do things my way. I think that's correct, ultimately. And, you know, okay, so think back to Game of Thrones.

A little show called Game of Thrones ever heard of it, Chris? I can't, I used to just say, ever heard of it. Now, Joe and I, you know, we've had this beautiful rings of power journey. And I just want to say, I've y'all out of it. I got a lot. Renly in season one, what was his response as the drama is unfolding? Protector of the realm or no, he who holds the king holds the kingdom. So while I think there will be plenty of people who watch this episode and say and feel, it lacked a certain, it felt a little inert in the dramatic tension front if people

who are ultimately working toward the same goal or the ones competing. There is a fundamental truth to that, though. Whoever is able to actually get Agon and position him and control him is able to make that call. And so the auto-alicent exchange that you already mentioned, where they can't quote Circe in full, because she utters the famous when you play the Game of Thrones, do you, when are you die-line? a couple centuries in the future and instead have to say, this is the game,

it's like actually. Otto flat out, they talk about this in the Green Council scene and Allison outlines it as she is coming to grips with what the plots actually have entailed.

They're going to imprison them, but really they're intending to kill them. Otto waste no time mentioning, of course, we should not forget. This isn't just about Ramira and the challenge to the throne.

He cannot wait to go after Damon, who he cannot wait. not wait to mention by name. Still hates that guy. But when Allison is trying to offer terms, is trying to find a peaceful outcome, as she says, instead,

I think it's worth asking why she thinks that's possible and if she really believes it is. Because I thought that one of the most important moments of the episode... Because she had five minutes at dinner where they were friends again. She had decades of basically like nuking that person.

Every time she was like, hey, maybe like my son can marry your daughter. And she would just be like, fuck you. And then they had like two minutes of like, you know what, I miss you. You're a great gal. By the way, it's about to go so bad here. But maybe I'll throw myself in front of this whole like

killing you to put my son in power thing. I believe. And I think Joe agrees with this too. It feels this way too. That Allison cares about Renera, that they still have that warmth and affection for each other and we're eager to make their way back to each other last episode. That part, I don't have any trouble accepting that Allison would want to stand in the way of a

great harm be falling Reneira. I don't think she would be eager. The Allison we have seen in this show would not be eager to have Reneira and her entire family killed. My question is more. So she says to Reniece, the Iron Throne was yours by blood and by temperament. Viseris would have lived his days as a country lord content to hunt and study his histories, but here we are. We do not rule, but we may guide the men that do gently away from violence and ensure destruction and instead toward peace. To stand there and say to Reynese, the Iron Throne was yours by blood and by temperament, but then execute a plot, whether she was in on the Green Council plot or not, is irrelevant. To execute a plot inside of this episode to crown Agon as king, which she does not believe

that by blood or by temperament, it is his. The propulsive force for her is Viseras' final word. So there's this dissonance and this tension. Her belief that her son is a piece of shit. the you are no son of mine line was an episode ago. Her belief that Renira would make a fine queen, which was also something we heard an episode ago. And then previously, if we go years and years back, her saying to Otto that she didn't want to raise her son to steal his sister's birthright is in conflict with the lifelong

indoctrination of Otto's words that the other side, you are the challenge idea that she says to Agon a few episodes ago, that the other side will come and try to kill her family. And like, yeah, what's Otto's very first move, right? Is like, we got to go kill Reneer and Damon, right? Right. So she's seeing that reinforced just from the other side. And also the fact that Otto spends the first several, like, the first episode is all about

Otto saying we cannot have Damon as heir. Let's put Reneer in this place because we cannot have a madman and an asshole as our king and then puts his rapist kid fight club grandson on the throne. This is such a huge Otto episode. It's why in the time jump, and Malina, I've talked about this before, but in the various time jumps, the scene that I really miss having, honestly,

is Vassaris making the decision to bring Otto back into the fold. Because Otto, like, if you read this section of fire and blood, Kristen Cole gets a lot of credit for what happens here, and they really downplay Kristen Cole's role in all of this. He's called the Kingmaker after this

because of, like, his role in getting Agon on the throne. they are softening Allison and making her concern a lot about Renira and stuff like that. And so in the absence of those people, this is auto driving this engine forward in the most meaningful way. And so letting that back into the castle is one of the most consequential things that happens in this entire show. And we didn't, it happened between episodes, right? Yeah. Remember when Otto, as he's after his ouster for the first time when he's leaving and he says, either you prepare aegon to rule or you cleave to Rainira and pray for her mercy.

So, Alison, the truth of these words, it's in front of her, the violence that is unfolding. And it is so fascinating that the path that she sees to trying to prevent that violence is shifting so that she's the one in the position to offer that mercy to somebody else. But from the Renis eruption that we already discussed, to all of these other factors, auto, iron rod, etc., Kristen. It's apparent to all, including Allison, that peace is not a possibility. And to indulge in that fantasy, I think it makes that rain-niece line about the window in the prison all the more powerful.

And really, I think it's a deep critique. You know, you toil in service to men, your father, your husband, your son. You desire not to be free to, but to make a window in the wall of your prison. she's saying to her, you're not actually trying to change the circumstances of the realm or your own life at all. And you're content, which we don't, we know that that's not true. We see on Allison's face, the horror of what is unfolding. She's not content at all. Yeah.

There's no good options for her. But there's a cap. There's a cap on what the path that she is on can actually lead to. Putting Agon, putting a crowd on Agon's head is not leading to peace or change. And I think that, like, you know, again, I really think that window in your prison line is like the line of the episode for me. And so to watch Rainis, like, fly out of the dragon pit, fly out of the window that's in the dragon pit that all the commoners are trying to get out of because they don't want to die. Like an auto being like open the door, but nobody's listening because he does not have control of the realm at all. And Rainies is like, here's my dragon and I'm going.

And you're stuck here still with these horrible. men and your nice daughter. You brought up that line about the window and the prison. It actually is a pretty effective way the way Claire Kulner shot this episode is that it kind of feels like several of the characters, but especially Alison, is imprisoned. She's always running from one dark room to another dark room to convince somebody of her case. She can't really do anything on her own.

She can't go get Agon. She has to send these guys out. She has to basically work her chance. chessboard, but it doesn't seem like she's doing it from a position of power. It seems like she's locked up in a tower somewhere. If only she had put on one of the many cloaks that people wear in this episode, including Rowe or Murdochardustle or an auto. She doesn't really have any shoes to match, you know? Wow. Well, wow, wow. What am I missing? Anything we guys wanted to talk about before we go? Can we talk about Amund for a minute or two? Yes. Yeah. I have found that for the

most part, my favorite characters on the show, at least the characters that I'm most drawn to consistently, weirdly, are the ones that have been played by the same performer the entire time. So I quite like Kristen Cole as a character, just because not in any way, like, is supportive of his actions, but there is a consistency or coherence to the character because Fabian Frankl's played him the entire time. You know, Otto, to me, makes sense because Recyphins has played him the entire time. Lyman Beesbury. Beesbury.

And you know what? I don't think we're talking enough about what the Beesbury family reaction is going to be. Your dad slipped in the small council and caved his head in. I need to say this in case any of our listeners have not listened to the book spoiler

section of House of R where we look ahead and predict what might come. Joe called not to the, I mean, the exact specific way that Beesbury would die. Joanna Robinson called in, believe episode one. Wow. That he would be murdered via small ball by Kristen Cole during the Korean Council. A round of applause. In the book, they're like, did Lyman Beesbury get pushed out

a window by Kristen Cole? Did he get his throat slip by Kristen Cole? Or did he get thrown into the black cells? It's one of those like, what are the three ways Lyman Beesbury could have gotten murdered? But we were just so confused about those dumb balls in the small council chamber. We're like, why are we seeing them? Why is the camera constantly lingering on them? What is the point? And then I was like what if Bees gets got by a small ball? Like that's... What a weekend for small ball? The guardians, you know?

The guardians and the house of the dragon. To properly memorialize Lyman Beesbury, I just want to read this one line from Fire and Blood, where it says all three chronicles agree on one particular. The first bloodshed in the dance of the dragons belong to Lord Lyman Beesbury, master of coin, and Lord Treasure of the Seven Kingdom. So RIP, God's be good.

It was a great final stand from Bees. It really was. What a challenge. Yeah, I mean, that was incredible. So, Mal, what did you want to do? What did you want to address that? Yeah, about Aeman. So another riveting Amid episode, genuinely,

Amon saying to Kristen, his secrets are his own of Agon, he's welcome to them. And then leaning into whisper, I am next in line to the throne. Should they come looking for me, I intend to be. found. He is not next in line to the throne, and this is a huge thing that he said this, huge. First of all, he is a true, true, true believer. Not only in Targaryen might, as we've discussed across many pods, but in his side, nothing that he says in his many, many slights against his fuck up of a brother and monster of a brother, Agon

indicates any, any affection for or belief in Reneira's cause. That's not it at all. He just thinks he should be the one for Team Green instead of Agon. He's the one who's studying philosophy and history. Exactly.

Studying histories and philosophies, it is I who trains with the sword and who rides the largest dragon in the world. All true, by the way. And Kristen probably knows it. Because Kristen's like, this kid could probably beat me.

They've been training with Sword and Morning Star in the yard for some time, Chris, and have a great understanding of each other's respective abilities. Egon and Helena have kids. Agon has a son, Jeharis. And for Eamond, in this family in particular, in this slice of the timeline and this part of Targaryen history in particular, to say a thing like this,

it's impossible not to think of Magar the Cruel. Impossible. Because Magor was the younger brother of our guy, Our fave over here on Talk the Thrones on the Ringerverse, Anus, King Anus, who had children and his son, Agon, known now to history as another Agon, Chris. I hate to tell you that there's another Agon at play here. Agan Theon Crown, because Magor, who was the younger brother, usurped the throne from Agan the Uncrowned.

So for Aymond to say a thing like this, I think it's a really illuminating insight into not only, of course, what he thinks about Aagon, which is very apparent across these recent episodes, what he thinks about himself and his own abilities, but to how little he gives a shit about anything resembling propriety, tradition, or the rule of law. And they've already set him up as this sort of Damon, mini-mey, you know.

Damon, of course, another character. Many other characters have compared to Magor. Right. The second son thread pops up again, right? All this sort of stuff. But a key distinction is that Damon doesn't think his brother's a great king, but Damon would never have tried to take.

And not that Aman is doing that. He is reluctantly grabbing his brother. But Damon wasn't walking around saying, I should be King. No, that wasn't his vibe at all. Every single time he's had that chance, he has backed away from it. When Reneera goes up to him on the bridge

and it's just like, you want what you want, you have to kill me. Do it right now. And he's like, eh. Yeah. So Aamond, it's a key difference between Damon and Aymn's, you know. Absolutely.

I love Aymond as a character. Well, what are my options? You know what I mean? Like, are there like super good people on this show? I just lean it into the spin, you know? So did the brothel keep, Chris. Was hyped to see Eamond again. You know, how much you have grown.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of our colleagues messaged me and he was like, how's your Laris fandom doing this Easter? And I was like, tough week for me. Gotta say. Tough week. What, like, I mean, there's not, there's not like a purely like, oh, I feel great about putting all my chips on this person.

So you got to, because sometimes you just got to go. with the foot fetish guy or the in-cell or you know sweet jace sweet prince jace seems to be like you know our nicest guy um i want to say that on the laris front i do want to point out i think it's very notable that like in this like very tiny fracture between auto and alicent in terms of their agendas laris is making himself available to both sides right yeah but then the episode um let's wrap it up here because we got one more episode to go You can hear Mallory and Joanna on House of R on Tuesday for their deep dive about this episode. You're free of Lord of the Rings of Power.

I wouldn't say we're free of it. I just mean you can use so much more of your... And our empty and hollowed out inside, a hollow that can only be filled by a harfoot, Chris. You wouldn't understand. You can just take your brains and go to the Aldani Folk Festivals now and really get Andor pills with me. Yeah. Yeah.

We're hyped to talk about Andor. Mal and you're all in on Andor. Tuesday, deep dive, this episode of House the Dragon. Then, Sunday night, the words Mallory loves more than anything else. Fuck it, we'll do this live. Fuck it, we're doing it live. The heartburn is setting it already. We'll go on.

I don't know how we're going to deliver it to folks, but we're basically going to go, like, record as soon as we can after the episode on Sunday. Yes. No finale screeners. I swear to God, if the Phillies are playing on Sunday night and I have to, I have to be like, Is Laris a good guy or not? I'm going to be really mad. That's my energy going into it.

What do you think of that? Mal, if the Orioles were playing on the night of a House of Dragon finale, what do you think you would do? I should be so lucky to feel that. That conflict in the human heart, Chris, of watching my beloved baseball team at the playoffs or House of the Dragon.

Dare to Dream. Podcasting with you, too, is worth the World Series. That's what I think. Wow. Thank you to Carlos for producing us this week. We'll be back on Sunday, I hope everybody has a great week and you know just maybe just wear shoes What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy?

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