The Ringer-Verse - Inside ‘Loki’ Season 1 With Head Writer Michael Waldron. Plus: Summer Reading Recommendations!

Episode Date: July 30, 2021

Mal is joined by ‘Loki’ head writer and creator Michael Waldron to discuss how the thrilling finale came to be, the show’s MCU-altering choices, and more (03:15). Then, Ringer staff writer Zach Kram joins to share his summer reading recommendations for ‘Loki’ fans interested in discovering more time travel stories (38:47). And then, author and humorist Simon Rich joins to discuss his wonderful new short story collection, ‘New Teeth’ (65:43). Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: Michael Waldron, Zach Kram, Simon Rich Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. So I fipped. I fipped earlier when I said I know how everything is going to go. I know, I knew everything up to a certain point. And that point was about seven, eight, nine, ten seconds ago.

But now I have no idea, no idea how the rest of this is going to go. I'm being candid. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host to binge mode, head of editorial here at the Ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only into the multiverse, but to join us on the Ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Now, before we dive in today, a few reminders. Midnight Boys, have a new episode up for you from earlier this week on Wednesday, where you can hear Van's Loki Finale thoughts and bear witness to the Midnight Boys' Supervillain draft.

They will be back with you next Wednesday, so stay tuned to the Ring ofverse Feed by following us on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, and following us across our social channels. As always, of course, bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. This episode will once again contain spoilers from season one of Loki, all of season one. So proceed with caution. We have a really fun show today. This will be hitting your podcast feeds on Friday. But I got to have a few fun chats earlier this week.

First, I had the pleasure of once again speaking with Loki head writer and creator Michael Waldron, this time about the sensational and twist-tastic finale and the overall landscape-altering season. Then in the episode, we kept the Loki fun going. I spoke with Ringer staff writer Zach Kram about some summer reading recommendations. Specifically, if you dug Loki and you want to explore more time travel and multiverse tales, you're going to want to listen to this segment because Zach has some recent time travel story recommendations that you may enjoy. And then finally, on the summer reading recommendation front, I had the privilege of chatting with all. author and humorist Simon Rich about his lovely and hilarious new short story collection, new teeth.

I hope that you will check out the entire episode, grab an apple, get ready to venture into the citadel of content because it's time to kick things off with Michael Waldron. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips, yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, folks, what an absolute delight and treat it is to be joined once again by Loki head writer and creator Michael Waldron. Michael, welcome back into the ringerverse. I am so excited to chat with you about this wonderful season of TV, which I adore. I am so excited that you were eating an apple, much like he who remains. Not a granny, not a granny Smith, a honey, twist.

That's the right choice. Yeah. Honey crisp or I would have also, I would have also been delighted by a pink lady. Pink lady. That's a wonderful apple. Yeah. Thank you for being here with us today. I'm so excited to talk to you about the show. I feel a little bit like, lo, lo, when he's first wandering around the void in episode five,

specifically because I have, as he said, several thousand questions that I'd like to ask. But I'm going to do my best to whittle them down into the time that we have today. I just want to start by congratulating you on a truly incredible season of TV. It was such a joy to watch. It was such a joy to talk about every week, such a pleasure to luxuriate in the long conversations that made up so many of the scenes and so many of the episodes. We had such fun here parsing every exchange and every kernel all season long. What has it been like to see such an effusive response to the finale in the season overall? But, you know, specifically the finale,

given the pressure that comes with trying to land a season like this. Yeah, it's been, it's been great. We've been very fortunate and that it seems like we, we landed. the plane and by and large people are happy with how we concluded our story. Endings are hard as everybody knows. And, you know, I was always aware that if we, if we screwed the pooch here at the end, ultimately that might recolor the entire perception of everything that came before it. So I was, you know, I was anxious to see how the finale would be received. It is, it was yet another kind of, I guess, big swing in the sense that it was like, all right,

we're going to, this is going to be a finale driven by conversation in a lot of ways mirroring the first episode. And we're going to rely on great performances, great, great music and great, you know, directing. I was kind of like, okay, guys, please, please go take this exposition and make it cool. And the whole team did. So, yeah, it's been, it's been amazing. And to hear everybody talk about the show, I like, I guess it's narcissistic to have listened to all of the ringerverse podcasts about the show. I was like, I was on, it was on vacation on a bunch of different flights. And I would just, you know, I was just listening to all of you guys, all of your recaps and everything.

And I was just like, man, this is great. And I was like, oh, God, you're Loki. You're a narcissist here listening to this stuff. But I do appreciate all the analysis and all the work you guys put into just thinking and talking about the show. That's incredibly nice and makes me and everybody here at the Ring ofverse very happy to hear. And, you know, look, Loki may be a narcissist, but it was a journey of self-love and self-acceptance, right? Right. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. I need to meet some other me's to. to work all that stuff out. Is there an alligator Michael variant out there? I hope so. Just guzzling wine? My dog, my dog might fit that bill. He's got a lot of those qualities.

Amazing. I have to ask you about Jonathan Majors, who was revelatory as he who remains in the finale. What an incredible performance. And, you know, obviously in general, what wonderful performance is from the entire, sublime cast across the board and across the season. With major specifically, again, I have so many questions here, how did you all manage to keep his role in the finale under wraps? I am honestly

like astounded, I mean, delighted, but astounded that this didn't leak. It just feels like a very rare thing in the internet age. And especially given the amount of time that he was on screen in the finale, and especially given the amount of Kang-centric speculation that had animated discussion around the show all season long. So what is it like to work on something and build toward a moment like that reveal, knowing that everybody is speculating and parsing and trying to solve, whether we might see something similar to that, like, however present are the nerves, how do they mix in with the jubilation, how do the timing, of all of that with the casting,

the decision to craft the finale that way, play out? Are you surprised that it remained a secret? You know, the Marvel, well, first off, it's a testament to Marvel security, you know, and to the secret keepers on high who somehow do, you know,

keep that stuff under wraps. And it's... Like end off with the ring. Keep it secret. Keep it safe. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, it's also everybody who worked on the show, I think, by that point, that we were shooting that last. And I was actually, I was fortunate enough to be there for the bulk of Jonathan's stuff. I was coming back from the first stretch of shooting Dr. Strange, too, in London. So I got to, that was the one time I got to really be on set for Loki.

It was a hell of a time to get to be there to see all of that. and to watch Jonathan work. But I think everybody at that point was so invested, you know, and everybody put so much their heart and soul

into this project that everyone wanted to keep the secret, you know, and so I think it was just everybody banded together and, you know, and kept that up their sleeve.

I think the other thing that we did that was a deliberate choice was we were like the most, shocking reveal would be to see him 10 minutes in. Like I, I think what I was always excited about was that people seemed to think, well, maybe we'll get Kang as the tag. Yeah, and the stinger, for sure. And, you know, Thanos sort of, well, I'll do it myself, that, that sort of thing. And

what nobody, I don't think, was ever going to guess would be that he would just show up and be the meat of the episode. Right. I guess. I guess. I guess. We were, it was really exciting to be like, wow, we've got the goods, you know, all the way through. We know we're going to deliver on that at the end. So I'm just glad Marvel let us do it. That's awesome. A couple related questions, but more broadly, I am really interested in how you weighed, what fans might already know or not know when plotting out that aspect of the finale.

Like, we never hear the name Kang uttered inside of the episode, right? The variant, this MCU amalgamation we meet is he who remains. But clearly, this is an on-ramp for Kang the Conqueror's impending starring role in the MCU. I can hear Jonathan Majors saying, Conqueror with such emphasis right now as I try to ask this question. Many Marvel fans knew that Majors had already been cast as Kang for the Ant-Man film, Quantum Mania. you, Tom, Jonathan, others have spoken since the finale about how knowing that King was coming

to the MCU unlocked all sorts of possibilities about what you might do here. People who watch the show closely and obsessively have theorized about Kang's potential arrival all season long. Comic book readers obviously are bringing a deep understanding of that history to the clues that are pointing toward a Kang or a Kang variant arriving at some point. So I'm wondering how you weigh writing with the knowledge that some people might already bring to the viewing experience in mind with the fact that many people are coming into a season without that awareness and how that impacts crafting an episode and a reveal like this so that it can work and land so forcefully and powerfully

for all parties. And overall, how challenging and presumably exhilarating it is to craft a finale like this that is anchored so fully around as you've mentioned, conversation, discussion, dialogue. Was there a particular aspect either to that larger question of how to weigh and balance those variables? A key line between our dynamic duo, a crucial bit of exposition, anything that was particularly tough to crack in that respect? I guess I'll start at the end of that question, which is the code name for our production was architect as a nod to the architect in the Matrix Matrix, yeah. The Midnight Boys will be delighted to hear this.

They've been talking about that, yeah. Which is perhaps a somewhat infamous warning of a way that the audience can reject a man behind the curtain explaining how it all actually is to our hero. We got excited about the idea of doing a version of that people loved. I love The Matrix Reloaded. So it's like it's an affectionate nod for me. Obviously people knew, you know, it's like you have to always consider just the fan base is so huge for these things. And you're always kind of considering, okay, what are the different cross sections of this MCU fan base? Certainly there's a sizable portion of the fan base that does know Jonathan Majors has been cast as Kang the Conqueror.

and if you're online at all reading about this stuff you probably know Kang is the next Thanos level you know it probably feels like that's he's got that magnitude just because there's been a million articles written about it and everything so those people are going to be in they're going to they're going to be excited no matter what and you're kind of coasting on that that they're going to be like oh shit like this is this is awesome at the same time I think Alan Seppenwall said it on the Ringerverse podcast that structurally, from a storytelling perspective, introducing the big bad there at the very end, it not necessarily the most structurally sound storytelling choice. I think it's one that, A, you can only make when you're working

within the realm of Marvel Comics, where there is some, where it is like, there is some knowledge from a big portion of the audience who is like, wow, I know who this guy is. I know what this is a harboringer of. But then it was just on us to say, okay, if you don't know who the hell Tang the Conqueror is, and if you aren't familiar with Jonathan's work, how is this exciting on its own? And so the mythology of somebody who built the TVA, ultimately, the whole thing with He Remains was only going to work if it affected the emotional story between Loki and Sylvie.

Like, as cool as that all is, it's ultimately just a cosmetic in our show. The story belongs to Loki and Sylvie. And so it was, you know, his mythology. We tried to create something that was really compelling. You know, what he was doing was protecting against scarier, more terrible versions of himself. And that created this very compelling gambit and ideological break between Loki and Sylvie. And, I mean, I think that, you know, we knew we had great. performers and everything.

And I thought about, clearly I've been ripping off Damon Lindel off throughout this season. I just loved all of the Lost Illisions. I'm such a fan of his tremendous. But I thought about the leftovers finale.

Yeah. Which is, for my money, the best series finale ever. Wow. And it's, you know, that's a, that's a finale that's a lot of that hinges. It's just Nora telling a great story. Right.

And that just, it helps you believe that a great performer telling a compelling story, there's nothing more exciting than that. And so, you know, we banked on that. And I think in this case, it worked out. I love that, man. I want to get to Loki and Sylvia in a minute, but I have one more question about the big reveal. When we chatted at the mid-season mark when you joined us, we talked a bit about the

the differences that come with making a Marvel show, making a Marvel movie, which, as you mentioned, you're also doing next Doctor Strange film. And also the opportunities that each platform affords. And I don't think that we can overstate the magnitude of the Loki finale in terms of what it means for the MCU going forward. From a storytelling perspective, Kang, branching timelines, the multiverse, unspooling before our eyes. But also, the fact that the occurrence is that consequential, the altering of the very fabric of the Marvel tapestry and universe unfolded on Disney Plus. The shows matter as much as the movies now.

And for someone who spends a lot of time watching TV, I'm like, this is dope. This is thrilling. I love this. What a time to be alive and be a Marvel fan. What were the discussions like when it came to assessing that aspect and those ramifications of the project, like what it would mean to do something this seismic on this platform. Was there ever any debate or was this the shared mission and goal from the jump? Yeah, there was never, I mean, we didn't know at the top that we were going to be breaking open the multiverse in this, in this

story. I think as soon as I realized very early on in the writer's room, I think it just became clear to us that a story about time travel is really the same thing as a story about a multiverse. And I got my eye on the prize of like, let's bring in Kang, let's bring in the multiverse into this thing. And, you know, because it's, Loki as a character has been so consequential throughout the MCU. He was the character that brought the Avengers together. in the first place. And I think it's only fitting that he's here very, you know, intricately tied into the explosion of the multiverse and everything that'll mean for for the ensuing chapters of the story. So, no, it was always, you know,

the whole thing was always that these stories would be as vital as any other within the MCU. I think the philosophy remains the same on the most. movies where what you're watching hopefully can be enjoyed even if you haven't seen every movie, every TV show that's led up to it. I think that's one of the most impressive things about the MCU is the desire and to make things that stand alone. And so, but yeah, it was, it never felt like we were making TV. It always felt like we're doing something different.

I don't know what it is, but it's cool. I mean, one of the things that came up often in the course of discussing it with other people is just how much it felt like theater. You know, and I think so much of that was about the intimate nature of two, maybe three people just having a chat, you know, the vibes. Yeah, yeah. It was Loki as a character of his many powers, you know, many of which we got to explore and many of which will continue to be explored,

I think his greatest superpower is talking. And so you want to see Superman fly. I want to see Loki talk and verbally spar and everything. And so that was a dream come true for me to get to write the exchanges with Ian Mobius. Incredible. Such a pleasure. Absolutely incredible. I mean, one of the things that I think was so, you know,

insinulating week to week was how those conversations, whether it was Loki and Mobius or Loki and Sylvie, allowed the characters to engage with the ideas that we as viewers were going to naturally be thinking about as we watched the stories unfold, you know, specifically the thematic examinations. And I want to talk about that for a minute with Loki and Sylvie and the themes at the heart of their journey

because the culmination of their season one arc, their shared season one arc, but also their individual arcs, and obviously those are inextricably linked, gutted me in real time and has really stuck with me since. Could not stop thinking about it. Got to be honest.

Beautiful, deeply moving, quite anguish-inducing, incredible performances, incredible writing, incredible set design, direction, all of it. Just this, this, like, harmony and symphony.

And I have always loved Loki. as a character and always been quite compelled by the character and by Tom Hiddleston's performance. And, you know, finding such tantalizing scene partners for him in both Sylvie and Mobius was just like a joy to behold week after week. And those themes that are central for Loki and Sylvie obviously apply to other characters as well. Mobius, Rivona, B-15, classic Loki, you know, and beyond. And those themes, I think more than, you know, any road that he who remains is going to boast about P. those are really the unifying path that Sylvie and Loki travel down throughout the season. You know, questions about free will, control, purpose, identity, longing, connection, nature,

self-acceptance. And I was really struck on a rewatch of the entire season by like how often those themes surface in dualities, you know, free will versus determinism, connection versus loneliness, nature versus nurture, et cetera, et cetera. But also, by how one of the show's core pillars is rejecting the idea of an either-or. As Loki puts it, no one bad is ever truly bad and no one good is ever truly good.

The effort to reconcile the tension between two poles felt so often like it was at the heart of the path toward each character's awakening and maybe eventually like apotheosis. And I was also really struck by how the central themes built on each other. throughout the season and how entwined they all ultimately felt.

I promise there's a question coming here. And so I'm wondering, what Loki is ultimately about to you and for you? Is it primarily about one of those themes, one of those ideas, one of those questions more than it is about any of the others? Or is it about that overall brew that stems from that introspection and existential assessment in a character study and really a study in humanity like this. Gosh, when you put it that way, it makes it sound so much,

makes it sound so much smarter than I ever thought. It's about all of that. Everything you just said is what it's about. To me, it is, I mean, it is about that, the whole cocktail of things. It is a, it's a story about people questioning their own glorious purpose

and wondering, you know, and can you change that purpose? And there's varying degrees of what that means. It's compelling that Loki, in the end, actually is arguing to Sylvie, wait, let's rule. But it's not, it's coming from an earnest place of, but let's do it the right way. It's not out of selfishness.

It's not, that's a, that's a. me represents that, like, that is very much in the gray area of like, wait, this is complex. If we kill that guy, worse things are going to come out. Can we just think about this? Sylvie is the one character that can't let go of her glorious purpose over the course of the show. And so she ultimately fulfills it and she kills he who remains and presumably releases something terrible. Why, why is Loki able to change? I think it's because he met Sylvie, certainly. I also think it's Mobius's friendship and that, in that relationship. That's something that Sylvie didn't have. That relationship with Mobius is so strong and so profound, so mature and so patient. In a lot of ways,

that that's the thing that he needed most of all. And that coupled with the affection he feels for Sylvie is what helps him, you know, do something else that to me the show was always about, which was the story of Loki going from a villain to a hero a little bit. And what happens to heroes is sometimes they lose. They lose painfully so, and then they have to get up. And that's that amazing, long push in, and Tom's performance is so great at the TVA and he gets himself back up. And that that is a, that's an evolved heroic version of Loki to me that's different than the version who came back at the end of Ragnarok who that guy was he's doing the right thing and maybe he was on the path to breaking good but I think he was I don't know that he had atoned in a way that this version

of Loki had and so yeah I guess those are the two main things for me that's fascinating okay I related to that I want to ask you about free will Yeah. Do you believe that the characters possess free will, that their choices matter, or do you believe that they and we are trapped in a loop? Like, can free will and determinism coexist? This is always one of my favorite things to think about. I love when stories grapple with this.

I watched, I just watched for the first time ever, dark, the just fantastic Netflix time travel show. And on the heels of watching that and Loki, I just really cannot stop thinking about this. And it's interesting because you just mentioned Sylvie and her choice. And I've been thinking about like the tragedy of Sylvie arriving at a moment when she finally can make that choice and do that thing and exert that free will that she has waited her entire life to do.

And the choice being this massive sweeping vast thing, but it also feeling in a way like she actually didn't have a choice partly because of how long she had waited to arrive at that moment and how really devastating that is. And, you know, maybe other people perceive that moment differently. I think that's one of the fun things about watching a show like this. It's just also, you know, one of many instances that we can assess. I mean, Freewell is, you know, an ever-present topic of discussion and examination

throughout the season well before that moment, too. And Sylvia and Loki both make choices there. Are they both rebel actively as they should against the idea that other people are, you know, setting their course for them, that they're just playing out a farce. And so I'm curious, and, you know, this might fall into, like, thick wool and socks. It had been quite a personal question. Mirre Rivera said territory, you know, feel free to tell me to fuck off. But, like, how does your personal perception shape the stories that you write in that respect? Why are you drawn toward those questions about free will and destiny?

and how does that view impact the choices that your characters ultimately make? I believe we have free will, and I think you see all the time why maybe that's not a good thing. But I also think that, but, you know, that's having free will is the source of all things bad

and also all things good and beautiful. You know, I, and I think that that's so many stories, are about the quest for freedom, the quest for freedom. The striving for freedom. Yes. Yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting thing to consider, and it's easier, I guess, to reckon with it telling a story about demigods and a time travel agency that it is to step back and think about it as it relates to your own life, sitting in traffic,

You know, we wondering. Was it a podcast? Yeah. Like, is this how it was supposed to go? You know, the older you get and the faster time moves, the more you can look backward and say, was this the only way? And that's compelling. I think that great stories don't answer that question.

They ask that question. And that's what I'm interested in trying to explore. On the subject of fate and destiny, season two, two questions here. One, looking ahead, one looking back. Looking ahead. Can you tell us if you will be back for season two? And then looking back, when in the process of making season one, did you know that season two was definitively going to happen

and how did that shape or impact the way that season one ultimately unfolded? Can my answer that first question just be me biting the apple? I can watch an eats apple in response to question about season two. We always wanted to, now I have a mouthful of apple. It wasn't really worth a bit. We always wanted season one to be a complete story, to tell a complete story. And the whole way through, it was the goal to propel Loki forward into the MCU in ensuing chapters one way or another, whether that was going to be another season or a movie showing up in a movie or something. It's like our eye was always on that ball because it felt like the most subversive thing you could do with Loki at the end of the show was not.

kill it. You know, we, we certainly explored that and it was like, how does that not feel like every other time you've knocked this guy off? Yeah, and then I think it was, it was toward the end of the process where the stars aligned and it was like, okay, there's actually a season two. And that's where, you know, the drive to come up with a more like, right, classic TV cliffhanger sort of came out of. But we always, you know, we always knew this wasn't necessarily the end of Loki's story. This was just the beginning. Interesting.

One of the things that Dark taught me is that the beginning is the end and the end is the beginning. I can finally watch that show. I've always wanted to watch it. I didn't want to watch it while I was writing this show. I was like, I'll just end up ripping it all. I'll either end up, like, devastated by how good it is or it'll depress me one way or another, but I am excited to check it out.

I would be fascinated to know what you think of it. It is pretty riveting. I'm currently plotting my Infinity Knot tattoo. Can't wait. In the making of documentary, assembled the making of Loki, which was great. What fun to watch. You said while discussing Alligator Loki, I'll tell you, for every really dumb idea that made it in, there's like 100 even stupider ones that these guys had to pull me back from.

So since Big Al was just iconic and beloved. I'm wondering if there's anything you can tell us, and I know we have to wrap here in a couple of minutes, what some of those other ideas were that you had at some point that didn't make it in, or maybe even something that changed along the way. One of the things that the internet has been buzzing about is the shot in that making of documentary, the whiteboard behind you, sketching out, you know, an early vision of episode one. The line, doing crazy mischief, aka sex, has sparked a lot of, lot of excited chatter online. So anything you can share with us about ideas you had that didn't make

it in, changes to episode structure or plot points along the way, or maybe even just more broadly, any characters or storylines that you wish you had been able to spend more time on this season. Yeah, that whiteboard picture, I said this in another. It's any writer's nightmare that their whiteboard is photographed at any time because it's just pure chaos. A written. on those things, but there you have it. Yeah, that was a little eight-beat mini-story that we were exploring, perhaps playing out after Loki escapes from the time theater in episode one. We were wondering, would it be compelling if he actually escaped the TVA with a handful

of infinity stones and went and kind of had all of his dreams come true only to ultimate and did a really accelerated, I guess, kind of Rick and Morty-style montage of Loki with the Infinity Gauntlet. And then at the end, it's just kind of like, what does it matter? The TVA exists. Like, they're the greatest power. Ultimately, we were able to achieve that much more gracefully just with him looking at the chrono monitor. And I think that was much better. What were some other ideas?

once upon a time, the opening of episode three, when Sylvie is attempting to infiltrate a Hunter C20's mind, that actually turned into kind of a fight sequence where the TVA had had defenses in place. So those people in the memory and the beach bar actually turned on Sylvie and were hacking her and it got crazier and crazier and they were like little kid. attacking her. And then it's I literally wrote in that an armadillo with a laser mounted on it comes

bar and is firing and Sylvie kicks it like a soccer ball out into the ocean. That was in a script. Oh my God. You thought there was a lot of Pet Avengers talk at this point. Imagine. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Kevin often

references that to me. It's like that might be the bar for too too much. So there was crazy stuff like that. There was all sorts of stuff probably in episode three and in everything, you know, with different versions of of how the tempad

got blown up. There was a fun version once upon a time where the train was raided by bandits who were, you know, people kind of rebellion against the proletariat here on this planet and one of them stole the timpad off of Loki. And we still had the bit where Loki throws the night,

the dagger. Awful throw. And one of these bandits gets away on like a hovercraft. They're like a hundred yards away. And Sylvie's like, fuck, they got away. And Loki just takes a dagger and he's kind of drunk and he just Tom Brady's it. And it sails,

sails, and hits the guy in the back. And Loki's like, yes! And then you see, we never shot this, but this is how, and then you see the hovercraft

just veer off the side of a canyon and just explode. Incredible. That would have been fun just because it was a moment of great triumph for him, followed by, you blew up the tempad,

you asked. So it was all sorts of fun, fun stuff like that. Oh, my God. I love it. Loki is Tom Brady, not something I had previously considered. Now I need to know who his gronk is. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. She's going to come. This was a joy. I know we're out of time. I'm sad. We're out of time. I wish we could talk forever. You have a standing invitation to come back whatever you'd like. I love it. I'm back anytime. It's a thrill to talk to you. Can't wait to hear what you think about dark, excited to see all that's ahead for you. I did want to note for the listeners that you have another TV show coming out.

Very soon here. Heels, wrestling drama on stars, August 15th. Want to end on that? What commonalities can Loki fans who have fallen in love with your work expect to see with heels? Weather. Tight outfits. Shirtless, shirtless, handsome men. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's certainly a lot of conversation in heels. that mixes in with the action, but ultimately they are stories just about, about family legacy

and about identity and reckoning with all of those things. And sort of like, you know, can I change who I am, who I'm meant to be? I think that's forever a compelling thing to excavate. Couldn't agree more. I can't wait to watch it. Can't wait for all that's ahead for you. Thank you so much for joining us today. It was a blast. Thanks, Valerie. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. All right. Thank you, everyone for listening to that wonderful chat with Loki creator and head writer Michael Waldron. That was a real treat. Cannot wait for Loki season two. But why stop talking about Loki? Why stop thinking about Loki? We're in the multiverse. So many different ways that we can linger in this tale. One of those ways, it's going to be something that we explore right now. with Ringer Staff writer, Zach Kram. Zach, welcome into the Ringerverse.

My first time here, I'm happy to be a part of the Ringerverse. I wonder how many times your future self has been on the Ringerverse. Or my variant, my past self, there are so many possibilities. We are here to talk about time travel, to talk about the multiverse, to talk about stories, specifically that people who just watched Loki and are still thinking about Loki and those aspects of the Lokiverse might be interested in, luxuriating in, in additional tales. You love a lot of things. You love your dog.

You love baseball. You love time travel. There's one thing I know about you. It's that you love a causal loop. I love a time loop. It is perhaps when done right, my favorite device in all of fiction. So I had to watch Loki to see how the MCU would begin to handle this kind of story. I guess we got a taste in endgame.

But now we're really diving into time travel. We're diving into the multiverse with What If and the Dr. Strange sequel and probably Spider-Man 3. That seems to be the direction we're going. And I figured if you're kind of new to this brand of storytelling, like you said, why just stick to the MCU? there are so many other ways to explore this kind of storytelling because, by its very nature, it opens up all of these genre possibilities. Right. Now, this is not the first time that we've

mentioned other time travel stories on the universe. It will certainly not be the last. These are touchstones for you, for me, for many of the people who love fantasy stories. We will obviously be returning to time travel story recommendations many times from here. But, you know, one of the things that we had been talking about, recently was dating back to a suggestion from Steve Allman's past self, a summer reading episode of sorts. You know it's summer? We love summer. We love to read. Now, I have no sense of time and space, but people tell me it's summer and I always love to read. So could we talk about the time travel season of Lost? Could we talk about Doctor Who? Could we talk about Slaughterhouse Five? We could.

We have. We will again. But today, we're going to like, zero. zero in that focus a bit. And you're going to offer up five summer reading and specifically recent reading recommendations for people who are coming off Loki and are interested in more time travel tales. And multiverse tales. And multiverse tales. What's first on your list? Any other ground rules you want to establish for us from the jump here? I was just going to say that all of these suggestions, except for one, have come, have been published since 2019. So very, very recently I don't need to recommend his dark materials as a multiverse story. Presumably, most people who have listened to this podcast have either read this story or know enough about it that they know Mal wants you to read that story.

If you haven't, go read it now. It's fucking great. Zach, love is a dagger and love is the subtle knife, you know? But some of these stories, you know, folks might not have had a chance to check out yet. So get down to your local library and I have five suggestions for you. Okay. What's number one? Number one, the others are kind of in any order, but this is definitely number one on my list. It is, this is how you lose the Time War. It was published in 2019 by Amal El Mouhtar and Max Gladstone.

Mal has her copy on screen because I've recommended this to her off air before. It won the Hugo Award for Best Novella, among many other honors. And yes, it is a novella. It is fewer than 200 pages with double space text. So if you're looking for a, a quick, easy beatread. This is for you. The basic premise, and I am very wary of spoilers on the ring of verse and in my personal life. No spoilers here.

So I will basically just be telling you... In this instance, no spoilers. I will basically just be telling you what you can find on the book jacket or on goodreads. Basic premise of the story is there are two characters red and blue. They are world and time traveling spy slash assassins from warring societies who fight across space and time. And along the way, they leave each other secret messages over the course of their rival missions. The two women become pen pals and eventually fall in love. So I've seen this story described in a number of places as basically killing Eve with time travel in the

multiverse. That set up sounds cool enough on its own. How does the fashion compare if we're going with the killing Eve camp? So they're not entirely human. I don't want to get into that too much, but they have adjustable fashion based on where they're from. But the real draw of this story is its prose. It is quite simply the most beautiful writing I've read in years. There were two co-writers, one of whom wrote Red's letters to Blue and one of whom wrote Blue's letters to Red. And while they developed a general outline of the story in advance,

they didn't sketch out every single development line by line. So you can really encounter genuine surprise with each entry. There are inside jokes that bubble and grow over the course of the book. And just an incredible love story. And I think if I can give like a if you like this, then you should read this sort of recommendation. Please. It reminded me a lot of Black Mirror because something that we've talked about before with Black Mirror, Mal is, yes, Black Mirror is about technology, but all the very best episodes are about love. Yeah.

Yeah, San Juan Oparro, Be Right Back, et cetera. And this is, yes, a time and multiverse traveling story, but it's really about the emotional connection between two characters. The love they build over the course of their rivalry, the letters they leave each other, which kind of grow in emotion over the course of the story. You will cry multiple times while reading, I promise you, Mal. And probably you, dear listener, because it is that beautiful.

I can't recommend it more highly. Oh, my God. Zach, what a sales pitch. Let me just say this as an additional bit of endorsement for anybody who may be on the fence, though, how could you be after hearing that? Zach recommended this to me a few months ago. Now, I always take Zach's reading recommendations seriously. However, I had not gotten to it yet because I was in the process of enjoying another Zach cram reading recommendation, the once in future witches, which I just read with a virtual, like a remote book club that my college roommates and I have been enjoying recently during all of these days

remote, you know, catching up on Zoom, sharing stories. If you haven't read Witches, that is also just phenomenal. Phenomenal. Beautiful. Talk about gorgeous pros. And so I had not yet gotten to, this is how you lose the time where when Loki started, had it here in hand, was excited to dive in. And then who should appear on our pal Joanna Robinson's still watching pod over at Van Fair other than Amal, one of the co-authors, to talk about time travel stories, multiverse stories, and share her perspective on Loki. So there's a direct tie there in terms of how one of the people who crafted this tale has perceived that aspect and the broader construction of Loki.

So check that discussion out as well after you read the book or before. I think you could do it in either order. I will also just say one of the things I'm always interested in talking about, you know, can free will and determinism coexist. I feel like you just, in a way, helped answer that question by explaining the structural approach to this story where the broad design and end point and beginning point

were in place and understood by both parties and then they each found their way forward. Wow, that's beautiful. Through the force of surprise and choice. I'm excited right now, man. feeling energized. Last thing I'll say about the story, Mal, and hopefully this doesn't make you guilty for not having read this story yet is, as you know, listen, I've had a book from Ben Limburg for six years that I haven't gotten to yet. So I have some time to get to this one.

As you know, Mal, as of last December, I am engaged. And this book was so beautiful that in my proposal, I quoted a line from this is how you lose the time were. Oh, my God. You're going to try to make me cry right now. I love it. That's great. Okay, I cannot wait to read this. We're going to have to talk about it again after I do. Thank you for this wonderful recommendation. Now, what is next on your list, two through five, in any order, since you made it clear that number one was number one. Number two is exhalation stories, which is a collection of short stories by Ted Chang, which Mal also is now flashing on Zoom. Ted Chang is probably best known as the author of Story of Your Life, which became the movie Arrival,

which is my favorite movie of the last 20 years, because it has just incredible time loop structure. Anyone who has seen a rival and enjoyed it will enjoy exhalation, which is a great story collection as a whole, but also includes two stories relevant to what we're talking about, the merchant and the alchemist's gate, which is essentially about time,

and anxiety is the dizziness of freedom, which is about a multiverse. Merchant is a closed-loop time-travel story, and maybe the coolest closed-loop time-travel structure I've ever encountered. It's about a salesman whose shop contains a gate, allowing time travel over a distance of 20 years, and then he shares some stories about a few of his client's adventures. Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom, is a multiverse story where essentially a quantum device has been invented, and every time it's used, it splits reality into two branches. Crucially, it allows for communication between those parallel worlds so people can

look at their alternate paths, see how their variants are doing, see what their favorite celebrities or sports teams are doing in these other worlds, et cetera. Ted Chang, for any of you who have read his stories before, he really has a strong sense of world building in a very short span of time, which is necessary for- An incredibly short span of time. It's amazing. It's necessary for short stories. And you just dive right into these worlds and these, elaborate story building structures. I will say that in general, I love almost everything that he's written. You and I, one of my fond memories of discussing stories with you was us just sharing our

kind of respective power rankings and having almost completely inverted an opposite list, which I got a kick out of. You know, I mentioned already that I value and prize and take seriously your recommendation. when you suggest a tale to me. The, and the power rankings of people whose advice I adhere to strictly when they recommend a story,

the top two spots are locked. They belong to my dad and Jason Concepcion. The merchant and the alchemist gate, I have such a vivid memory of Jason reading that for the first time and telling me, like, you have got to read this story. It will wow you and for you and stick with you. And I don't, you know,

I don't want to spoil any of the first time. the specifics. I think you did a good job of explaining the majesty and the pull of it without that. But there are just so many astoundingly beautiful and profound insights and lines in there. And one of the things I really appreciate about the story, I try to think of a way to say this, that wouldn't be a spoiler for anybody who pays very close attention to any of our stated philosophies on stories like this. the belief, I think, the conclusion drawn in the story is one that in many cases I almost say like actively rebel against and have a hard time accepting, right? But I was moved to not only tears, but a sense of calm and peace.

It made me think of the actually the line in Loki, though, it's not issued. there is a soothing bomb. Like, think of it as a comfort. The idea that the path is set, right? But I think of like a line from that story, like, then we are the audience as well as the players, and it is by living these tales that we receive their lessons. And I'm just like, what else do you need?

Ted Chang, pretty good writer. Unbelievable. Number three, the psychology of time. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. hold on. I will not allow you to move forward without remarking upon the fact that you were cheating. That was two recommendations, which means that even though you're technically, technically saying, oh, I'm one and two in. You've recommended three things. Zach, I am not critiquing you. I want to offer praise. Because as you know, one of my firm staunch beliefs and proud podcast traditions is, you know what?

Who says the number on the list has to be the number that we actually follow through on? It's more of a guideline. All right. What is number three slash really for? Number three is a book called The Psychology of Time Travel by Kate Mascaranus. It was published in 2019, and I had no knowledge of this book. I had never heard of it. I knew nothing about it, but I found it at a sidewalk sale at my local bookstore. Shout out Anderson's. And I bought it entirely because every noun in the title excited me. I like psychology. I like time travel. What more could you want than to combine them in a book?

What happens in this book is in the 1960s, four British women invent a time machine. And the bulk of the story takes place 50 years later in what is essentially our present day, mostly from the perspective of the granddaughter of one of the inventors. But because it's a time travel story, you go into the far future, the near future, the far past, the near past, et cetera. There is a fun mystery element. There's a dead body that sets off the plot. And it's unclear who the body belongs to and when the body.

belongs to, which is interesting. But it is more about character than plot. It's more about the psychology, as the title suggests. And the reason I love this book more than a lot of other time travel stories is because it's so imaginative in the kinds of questions it asks and answers. It considers so many social and personal implications of what if time travel were real that I had never seen before. For instance, one of the more prominent ones in the book is, so if you're a time traveler and say your parent passes away, well, you can just go back in time and have another conversation with them. So how do you adjust if death functionally loses all meaning to you? What does that do to your psychology? What does that do to you as a person? If your husband dies and you can just

go back 10 years to when they're alive and healthy again, and you don't ever get to grapple with that sense of loss. So that's just one of many implications that this book explores. But I think more than most other time travel stories, it's like, okay, if time travel actually were real, how would it affect people? That sounds incredible. I have not read that, and I'm very excited to check it out. Now, I like that end note a lot there in your pitch. The mythology, the mechanics, obviously establishing and examining that in full is essential to making a story like this home and to making it work and to allowing us as readers or viewers to understand. understand how to exist inside of that tale. But that next level of introspection and reflection,

what would this mean? How would it change the way that we exist is really endlessly fascinating? Can I interrupt your list for a minute, though, and piggyback off something you said and make a recommendation to you? Please do. So this is not a reading recommendation. But when you just said that there's a body and the question of who and also when is the body from, made me think of it. And I just have to slacking you about this. I have to do this here for a minute with you. I watched Dark finally after years of Chris Ryan, Jason Gallagher, Megan Schuster, recommending it effusively.

And I wanted to watch it and just had not gotten to it. Watched it all, all three seasons. And I cannot expect. even though literally part of my job is to express how good things are and why they work, cannot find a way to put it in towards, Zach. It was sublime. You will love it. You will love it.

I have rarely been so sure of anything in my life. You simply must watch Netflix's dark. You must. It is number one. Now that we're in the NBA off season, it is number one on my list of show. shows to watch and I am excited to get back to you because it sounds like everything I want in a television. So I'm kind of disappointed in myself that I haven't watched it yet. No, but think of it this way. There's always some new joy to discover, right? That's one of the great bounties that the

golden age of TV affords us. You can't keep up with everything that's happening in real time. There are too many options. There's too much choice. But then if you miss it in the moment, it's still there for you, you know? And almost like time travel. I was just going to say the same thing. Get back to me when you've watched Dark. I want to talk about it with you more. Number four on my list is definitely when I'm cheating because exhalation, it's like, okay, it's two stories from the same book.

This is two different books. These are two different books. By the same author. So, by the thinnest of margins, thank you. I'll allow it. I wasn't sure if I needed to go to Judge Jomey or something to see if this would be allowed. But I'm pulling a mall and grouping them together because, Recursion and Dark Matter are both by Blake Crouch, who is also the author of the Wayward Pine

series, which was turned into a television show. But recursion was published in 2019, Dark Matter in 2016. And I've been talking a lot about love and character and introspection. If you want your frenetic time travel and multiverse plots, here you go. These have a lot of plot, very fast-paced, really quick page turners, especially for the beach. Recurion is a, time travel story, but in a unique way. It avoids problems with the grandfather paradox and the like. It is a fully internally consistent logic. It involves two main characters. One is a scientist pursuing groundbreaking technology. Another is a detective investigating something called false memory syndrome. The two of them cross paths discover time manipulation. I don't want to give

anything more away because this really is one of the coolest portrayals of time travel I've ever seen. Dark matter is a multiverse story. The main character is a physics professor who one night is abducted and attacked. He wakes up in a world that is similar yet slightly unfamiliar because in this world he is now a brilliant accomplished scientist, but his family is gone. You can probably guess where the plot goes from there. He tries to rediscover where he's from. The second story, Dark Matter in particular, reminded me a lot of devs. In the binge mode devs episode, there was discussion of Schrodinger's cat and the Copenhagen interpretation and wave form collapse.

And those all get heavy play in dark matter. But it's not like too sciencey. It's a pretty quick part of the book to say, okay, here's the dynamics of this world. And it can continue from here. These two books are really fun to read kind of back to back or in close succession because the writer clearly enjoys returning to kinds of the same. imagination. I liked the world of recursion more, but I found the ending a bit frustrating, whereas I found the setup of dark matter less unique, but the conclusion was awesome in large part because it had the most delightful twist I've encountered in fiction. In a while, I will not

give anything else away. I don't want to spoil it at all because when it appeared on the page, I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe he's doing this. This is so cool. I will only say that if you liked Loki, you will probably like this twist, too. Ooh. Well, that's a I mean, there are a lot of ways to kind of interpret that. There was one part of Loki that happened on screen, and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is just like Dark Matter with that one twist in Dark Matter, then appearing to be the one twist in Loki, which was super fun. Incredible. Which is, I was, I'm interested in how you framed that. Like, which of those, not that it's always, you know, a clear victor, but the strong ending that doesn't quite, the strong setup that doesn't quite deliver or the slower build up.

that wows you. Which of those tends to carry more weight with you and linger with you longer? I think the stories with better conclusions tend to stick with me longer if the conclusion is really emotionally resonant, which is why I included number five, which I haven't talked about yet on my list at all. But recursion had such a unique portrayal of time travel that I'd recommend people who have read a lot of time travel before and haven't checked this book out yet to read it because once you've encountered one or two or a dozen time travel stories, generally the dynamics at play start to seem pretty similar and then it's what the author does with it. This was fully unique. There was no issue of, okay, but does this really hold up?

Like even people who tend not to enjoy time travel stories because of paradoxes will probably agree that this story leaves no space for paradox at all, which is pretty fascinating. You know, you mentioned Strudgeoner's Cat. You've mentioned paradoxes a couple times. Again, I just need you to watch Dark. I need you to, like, log off Zoom and go watch Dark. A lot of bootstrap paradox talk directly incorporated into conversations in Dark. You're going to love it.

I'm so excited. All right. What's number five? Bring us home. Number five is called the Space Between Worlds by Mackayah Johnson published in 2020. As the title might suggest, there are multiple worlds in the same. story and it is about the space between them. No. In this world, scientists have discovered that there is a multiverse, but travel between worlds is only possible if you're variant and that

other world is already dead or else you incite a paradox, basically two of the same person cannot exist on the same world at the same time. So Kara, the main character, survived a rough childhood, but in more than 90% of the other worlds, she died when she was young. So she is exceptionally valuable because she can travel to so many of those other worlds. So she works for an agency that basically collects information about the other world so they can learn, okay, there was a natural disaster here. We can prevent that in our world, et cetera. So it has a multiverse setup.

It's an interesting multiverse setup. But the reason this book is so great is because it uses that setup to explore really relatable human concepts, identity and race, class and culture, what it means to belong in a group or place. And I think especially with the multiverse setup, how small differences can butterfly affect into massive changes down the line for both individuals and society at large. Because in one world, you grow up like this and in an other world, you grow up in the same way, but have one chance encounter that could lead you down an entirely different path, which is, I think, what is so exciting about Loki and how Marvel might pursue the multiverse

scenario and then comes up in this book. And this book has a really, great and meaningful ending, very symbolic. And I think that's not rare for these stories, but it's hard for a story like this where so much of the propulsion comes at the beginning when the writers laying out the world or idea that excited them in the first place. But then it can kind of peter out near the end. Earlier this summer, I read a book that had a fantastic time travel premise. And then the ending was so upsetting.

I just went out to my living room and ranted for 10 minutes. Like upsetting it because it was emotionally devastating or the quality was so poor. You were so let down. The quality was so poor and I was so let down that like Bradley Cooper in Silverlining's Playbook style just ranting for 10 minutes about you had such this great setup and premise and then you squandered it at the end. So I'm not going to name that story now. But the space between worlds is the opposite of that where the ending was so great.

It just stuck with me for a week afterward because of how it both made sense plot-wise. and also brought all those other threads together about class and culture and what it means to belong to a group of people. You know, you talk a lot about the family being the people you choose Mal and this story, this space between worlds, talks a lot about family and friend dynamics. So this would be the last one I recommend, but not the least by far. That sounds beautiful. What a treat this was to hear these recommendations. Cannot wait to explore the stories that you just suggested that I have not read yet. I can't wait for all of our listeners to check these out. Time travel correspondent, Zach Kramm, can't wait to be with you

again in the future. We're the past. In the past. All right, thanks again to Zach for joining me today. Stick around because we will be right back with my chat with new teeth author, Simon Rich. Transport your senses with Sol Dijanato's limited edition perfume mist collection. At Sephora. Sprits on lush notes of rainforest orchid and crisp sea breeze with hafresco paraizzo. Embrace a floral and fruity scent inspired by Rio's nude beach with cheeky bikini or capture sun-kissed bliss with limonada gelada, where zesty Brazilian lemonade accord meets coconut milk and golden brown sugar. Don't miss Sol de Janeiro's limited edition perfume mist collection only at Sephora. I am so thrilled to be joined now by author and humorist Simon Rich, New Yorker contributor,

former SNL and Pixar writer, author of numerous short story collections and novels, including spoiled brats, hits and misses, author and ensuing creator and TV adapter of miracle workers and man-seeking woman and so much more, including, of course, new teeth, which is why we're here today. He is the author of the new short story collection New Teeth, which came out this week, Tuesday, July 27th, and is available wherever you get your books, and which features 11 truly wonderful stories that I am so excited to chat about today. Simon, welcome into the ringerverse. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Oh, my God. Our pleasure. What a joy this is. I have so many things I want to ask you. I'm going to start kind of a big picture question or two before we zero in on the

pirates of Babe Ruth and, you know, laser disc players of it all. You have spoken before about how your stories are informed by personal experience or at least in part autobiographical. And that feels really palpable while reading your work, that that magical realism coming to the fore and tales that marry the everyday with, you know, riotous parody and absurdist flair. And part of the upshot is an overarching theme emerging across a collection. You know, earlier in life, dating, right? Here in New Teeth, parenthood, growing up, the shifting perspective that comes from finding newfound connection

and insecurity that spawns an eventual awakening. And I'm curious how much of a North Star, that kind of thematic umbrella, that kind of lens is, as you're working on a short story collection. You know, you said in an interview you did last year, a 2020 interview with Variety, that it is, quote, the only thing I write about, meaning parenthood. Are you writing to that theme, to that through line, and shaping the collection that you're working on consciously in that way in the moment?

Or is that unifying thread something that emerges organically as you're penning your tails? Right. Yeah. Well, it's a really good question. It is 100% the latter. It is totally accidental. You know, I literally will sit down and decide that I'm very interested in writing the story about pirates. And if I'm writing it this year or last year or the year before, it inevitably happens that the pirates end up being parents and finding a little girl on the ship that they have to suddenly take care of. And a crate of biscuits. Yeah, right. Spoiler.

I just can't help but write about anything other than what I'm kind of like emotionally grappling with. And then it just sort of happens that every two to three years, I'll sort of say to myself, well, you know, this pile of stories, they're all kind of thematically related. And but it just kind of happens organically. I have a related question. That's so interesting. You know, you just as you've spoken about that, as you've spoken about the emotional connection to the tales, autobiographical influence. You've also spoken about how you try not to let current events or real world.

history see, like, too deeply into the stories that you're crafting. You know, for example, you wrote the bulk of this current collection during the pandemic, but new teeth is not about the pandemic. And I'm curious how you bridge that divide. Like, is the distinction that the driving, organizing principle of the moment, whether it's dating or faith or parenthood or whatever it may be, stems from where you are in your life and what you are experiencing, but is ultimately like universal and eternal, which something that is highly like specific and topical and responsive

would not be? Yeah, I think that's exactly it. It's like the more granular and topical and satirical you are, the often, at least in my experience, the more superficial the comedy becomes, at least for me as a writer, there's, the goal for me always

is to really like try to write about some visceral emotion that I'm experiencing, like, you know, they're being rejected when you're trying to date, or in this book, it's the terror of trying to raise children when you don't fully know what you're doing. And those kinds of subjects have always felt way more compelling to me than what's going on in the news. One of the stories in New Teeth that does feature a notable figure from history is screwball, which stars Babe Ruth

in a somewhat fictionalized role. And as you noted in the acknowledgments of new teeth, you work to make that at once historically accurate, but also give yourself room to imagine, to play, to invent. Yeah, so a lot of times I'll find in like nonfiction or in just randomly clicking refresh on the Wikipedia page. I'll like stumble upon something from history that I find very emotionally relatable,

and that will inspire me to write about it. And I was researching Babe Ruth, or just blindly Googling him one day, and looking at old pictures of him. And I came across this story about his time as a minor league baseball player, which was incredibly brief because he was so dominant as a pitcher

and a hitter that he rapidly was promoted to the Reds. socks where he dominated and went on to be the legend that he is. But for like three months, he was on the minor league Baltimore Orioles. Yes. I'm from Baltimore and I'm a huge baseball fan. So this was a delight for me to read, but also painful. Yeah. And so he was one of two, and this is all true. He was one of two rookies on the team. He was 19 years old and his his roommate, the other 19 year old going out for the team was the coach's son. And was, was terrible. And so my heart went out to this guy whose dad is the coach, his roommate,

who's going out for the same spot as him, is literally Babe Ruth. And the hell of what that must have been like just really resonated with me. Because I think we've all been in that situation where you just feel like, I don't think I'm going to get this. Like, you know, I think I'm outclassed here. And it just felt like such a sympathetic character. And then, of course, So I decided to write it from the perspective of Babe Ruth and make him so naive that he would somehow be oblivious to his roommate's hardcore jealousy. And I'm excited for the sequel on anybody who once had to go head to head with Shohei Otani, you know, the natural successor to this tale. Seriously. I mean, it's the living hell. They have to, yeah, they have to compete against somebody like that, probably. I have to ask because I know that you're a Philip Roth's great American novel is like one of my favorite books of all time. It's a seminal text for me. Did that in any way influence your desire to write a baseball story like this? Absolutely. Yeah. And that novel is like set in a similar era, early 20th century baseball. And yeah, I think that's one of the funniest Philip Roth books ever. My favorite. The nickname part in particular.

made me think of... Yeah, totally. Yeah. And there's a great scene in a great American novel where they play in a game, an exhibition game, the team against an insane asylum. And there's a kleptomaniac on the other team that keeps physically stealing all the balls and bases

so they can't... And the game just sort of fizzles out. Yeah, I really love that book. Oh, it's so good. So much alliteration and so much mythology building. What a special tale. One of the stories in New Teeth that you have actually mentioned, I saw this in the interview that you did with Polygons Matt Patches,

was in some way, at least influenced by our current moment in time by the pandemic, is everyday parenting tips. And that is also being made into a movie currently starring Ryan Reynolds. Not bad. What, if anything, can you tell us about how that project is coming along or what to expect from that adaptation? I always like try not to talk about the, you know, TV and movie adaptations in progress too much because, like, at any moment, everything could change, and you don't want to, like, as a screenwriter, you don't want to be the person to announce big, big things. You want to leave that to the marketing department. But with that story, yeah, that is like an unusually topical story for me. And it's basically a, it's a list of

suggestions about, you know, how to deal with a child who's having nightmares and, you know, how to manage their anxiety. And as the advice column continues, you realize that it takes place during the midst of a monster apocalypse where the child has every reason to be scared. And it makes it a lot harder to figure out how to deal with their fear because you, the parent, are absolutely terrified yourself and literally physically fighting monsters all the time.

And so that was like me trying to find a metaphor to kind of explain how I was feeling when this pandemic started just with a nervous toddler trying to allay her fear as well simultaneously being completely in over my head. And so hopefully people will find that relatable. But yeah, I always try to kind of find characters who are in over their heads on some level because that's often how I feel.

Well, I'm curious talking about, about both, you know, that germ of an idea and the many forms that that idea might ultimately take, like, there may not be one answer to this. But what is the journey of a Simon Rich idea? Like, what is the schoolhouse rock, how a bill becomes a lot insight into the path that one of your story ideas can take because they're, you know, unified certainly by your style, your voice, your humor, the lens of the moment, your insights into humanity. but they're also so varied in terms of setting, topic, narrator. Like sometimes the narrator is a baby who's playing a detective

and sometimes it's a laser disc player confronting its own mortality. Right? And those are just two examples from the most recent collection. Can inspiration come from anywhere and then when it does, how do you decide where to put it, how to explore and nurture it, and what form it might ultimately take? Right. Yeah.

Well, it's a lot of trial. an error. I mean, it's, I, um, uh, sometimes it is as simple as trying to just come up with the logical metaphor for an emotional experience, you know, like it's really hard to manage my toddler's anxiety during COVID. It feels like, you know, acts. And that's like the kind of cleanest way. But that happens surprisingly little. And the, the bigger way that I come at stories is kind of, counterintuitive, which is I really just kind of blindly write about subjects that I'm interested in, whether it's superheroes or detectives or talking laser disc machines or whatever. And then gradually, often what will happen is a story will kind of emerge.

And I kind of realize, ultimately, like, as I'm outlining it, I realize, okay, I've cracked a way in to describe an emotional experience that I've had. But I kind of back into it and stumble upon it. I had this World Book Encyclopedia, the Children's Encyclopedia that I've had since college. And it's right here on my desk. I'll show it to you. But it's this thing. I mean, I've been using this thing since college.

And it's for kids, but it's pretty long. It's like 500 pages. Yeah, that's ample. Yeah, and I just go through it. Like, if I don't have anything to write about that day, I'll just spend the morning kind of leafing through it. And if something catches my eye, I'm like, huh, that's interesting. Like, I haven't really written about the pyramids. If I really try to write about the pyramids, often what will happen is a story will just randomly start to coalesce. If it feels personal,

if it feels authentic, like emotionally, then I pursue it. But I also throw out a lot of the stories that nobody sees it. Make that sense. That's the other, that's like the other part of the process is throwing a lot of stuff away into the garbage can. That is really fascinating. I'm curious, again, given like the overarching through line of new teeth, like, are there other specific examples that, you know, in addition to everyday parenting tips that stem from your experience as a father, like that you would cite is emblematic of how that inspiration can surface and then take form? Like, I couldn't help but wondering while reading Beauty and the Beast, whether you had just been crawling around your living room,

impersonating the Beast for your daughters, reflecting in your inner monologue on Josh Gads' brilliance. And, like, more generally in that respect, like, how does your, and you just ran us through this a bit, but, like, how does your work inform your life? And how does your life inform your work? Like, presumably you don't know anyone who has been raised by pirates or wolves, but maybe you stumbled upon something interesting on pirates in that encyclopedia?

Like, if your kid asks you to dress up as Bell, are you immediately thinking this is going to be a story? Or does it take longer than that sometimes? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Like, yeah, so like a story, like the big nap is a story in this collection, which is written in the style of like a Chandler, Hamet, noir novel. But the protagonist, the PI, the detective is a two-year-old baby.

and he's just trying to get through another day and he's got you know he's hidden the bottle and trying to make sense of a world gone mad and the origin of that was just like real sympathy for my then at the time two-year-old and just seeing what they were going through and how baffling and confusing things were and just watching them try to piece things together

and I thought you know well that that would be a great flawed detective character. And then I just kind of read a bunch, you know, re-read a bunch of hard-boiled stuff and thought, you know, I think if I wrote this in like the true like hard-boiled style, then it could have legs. And then I just kind of thought, well, a lot of the best versions of noir stories have like a grizzled PI,

but also like a femme fatale. And they start off wary of one another. And then they become friends, hopefully, you know, or they betray each other. But, you know, and that's kind of the central emotional relationship of like all the best noir's. And I thought, well, that could be a, if you took out obviously like the sexuality of it all, that could be like a fun metaphor for two young children learning how to be brother and sister,

learning how to be siblings, learning how to go from this kind of distrust that toddlers often have of their new baby sibling to a place of, you know, acceptance and maybe even partnership. And it turned into this, when I started to outline it, it turned into this narrative about like a two-year-old baby detective. There's this new girl in the house from the bassinet down the hall. She's got a shady past. She doesn't really know where she came from. There's like rumors that she was once, you know, she's rumors she came from the hospital. There's a rumor she once lived in mommy's tummy.

It doesn't add up. But, you know, her missing unicorn is on the lamb. And so it's like, and it's suspicious grandmother. A suspicious grandmother who he's seen around. He doesn't really know. He knows it all goes up to mama somehow, but he can't quite put the pieces together. And at a certain point, if the metaphor is like, if the metaphor feels like true, it kind of starts to write itself. But it takes a trial and error to kind of pick the lane to get there.

That really feels right. Yeah. That's really interesting. And, you know, one of the things that I was really struck by reading new teeth is that made me think of it here. And you described that. like the balance of humor and profundity, like the way that a really surreal scene or scenario can birth something that is like quite touching,

you know, a couple of the lines that I jotted down while I was reading, and those are just two of many, but these like really stuck with me. And I realized that I had neglected to ask Lundi an important follow-up question once you feel guilt, how are you meant to get rid of it from revolution? Like that like really lingers.

with me after reading it. And then why couldn't humans come out fully formed with everything they needed? Why did it have to take so long and hurt so much to finish growing up, which is from raised by wolves? Like that blend of the fantastical with the introspective made me think of Pixar where of course you once worked. And I'm curious how the Pixar experience has influenced or lingered if your current work given, especially here like the emphasis on evolution and family. Totally. Well, yeah.

Well, for starters, thank you so much. That's a big compliment because that is really my goal is to try to start from a place of like absurdity and wackiness and silliness and also kind of cynicism and satire. And then to end in a place that hopefully is like emotionally resonant and feels like redemptive in some level. And that's really like my absolute hope with any story, is that when you start off reading it, you'll think it's funny, silly, you'll want to know what happens next, and ultimately you'll be moved in some way. That's the dream, you know. And that is the Pixar playbook. And not only has Pixar influenced me a ton, even before I started writing for them, I have literally

often copied them and stolen from them. Like in a very, in a very, in a very, in a very real, like, you know, sneaky, plagiaristic way. Like, there's a short story I wrote called Unprotected, which is a narrative told from the perspective of a condom who lives inside of a teenage boy's wallet. And it's his saga as he waits and waits and waits and waits unused inside the wallet with the other possessions of this teenage boy. And it's just toy story. That story is just literally like a beat-for-beat rip-off of toy story.

It's a coming-of-age story about a child, or in this case, a teenage boy, told from the POV of these anthropomorphic objects that he owns. And there's a lot of stories that I've written that, oh, they're central, like, structure and framework to a specific Pixar film. And when I was there, they knew what I was doing. They were like, Toy Story, right? Like when that one came out of the New Yorker, they were like, this is Toy Story? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine.

They were always cool with it. Incredible. Well, obviously, short stories, even though a lot of the heart and the approach can be similar, it's a different form than a movie. And I'm curious, like, what it is that you love most about short stories as a vehicle for exploring your ideas. Like, you've written novels, as mentioned, you've written for SNL, Pixar,

you've show run TV adaptations of your work. Why is the short story something that you return to time and again? And what distinguishes it in your mind from other forms of storytelling? And like, what makes it such a fit for your particular approach and style? Yeah, well, there's like a couple answers. I mean, the first, the kind of superficial answer

is just that I love short stories. And I've always loved them. And growing up my favorite writer, were short story writers. Shirley Jackson, T.C. Boyle, Stephen King, even though his novels that are more famous, my favorite Stephen King stuff was the short stories. I felt the same way about writers like Martin Amos

and Ian McEwen. I actually preferred their stories to their more famous novels. And the reason why I liked the story is more is because they often took bigger swings. It took bigger risks. And I think there's something about like a 10 or 20 page story where you just kind of have more freedom because you can attempt to concede that would never would really outstay its welcome if it were 300 pages long. But in 10 or 20 pages, like the reader maybe we'll get on board. They'll go with it. There's a great Martin Amos story, which I actually don't think it's collected anywhere called

I Am The Immortal, I think it's called, and it's the perspective, written for the perspective of an immortal man. And it's like six pages. I think I read it in Granta when I was like, you know, in high school. And I was like, I can't believe you're allowed to do this. I can't believe you're allowed to tell a short story. With a short story, you can take such a big swing.

And Raal doll, of course, is another huge inspiration on me. And those stories just enormous swings. And that's what I love about it is in a book like New Jersey. teeth, they can go from a pirate story to a noir story, to a story about a mutant superhero, to a talking object, and still somehow be thematically of a piece. And I love having that freedom as a writer. You mentioned mutant superhero. In addition to the fact that mutant superhero is the star of one of these tales, notice more than one Batman nod in reference throughout New Teeth. I'm wondering. Yeah, there's a lot of Batman.

Yeah. Are you a big Batman guy? Like, what's your consumption of superhero storytelling in general, like these days? We do a lot of superhero talk here on the Ring ofverse. I'm curious. Yeah, I love superheroes. Batman, for whatever reason, he looms large in my mind. And I think the reason why is because when I was in first Kim Berden, the first Kimberton Batman movie came out. And I was not allowed to see it because of scariness. The scariness of Michael Keaton's hair in particular? The whole vibe. Yeah, probably that, yeah, a confluence of, yeah. So I was just like, ever since I've just been like, ah, this, that's the forbidden fruit, you know. But I was allowed to dress as Batman that year for Halloween.

So, you know, close enough. But yeah, that superhero story is very much inspired by, you know, all the great work that's out there. Clabo tells the tale of a mutant superhero who basically was, saved the world hundreds of times during this prime, but it's been 20 years, had his own bad signal, but now it's like 20 years later. The aliens have not attacked at all lately. They really can't afford to keep funding his fortress with budget cuts, but they don't want to be cruel to clobbo. And so the mayor, she politely kicks him upstairs to a desk job, which he is not cut out for

because he is a giant monkey man who can barely speak English, and his only talent is to crush space slugs and to goo. And now he has to kind of like figure out the Wi-Fi password and try to look busy during minutes. The challenges of ICAL. I loved that part. It's tough. Yeah. And he has to kind of reframe his identity. But yeah, I think the superhero genre is so much fun to draw from. I found that one.

particularly tragic, actually, but also quite inspiring at the end. You know, finding new purpose, the eternal quest. It's aspirational for all of us. Yeah. I'm wondering if you have a favorite story from new teeth or if that is like asking you to pick between your children, which would be a particularly galling proposition given the parental focus of much of this collection? No, I'm sure I do.

If I look at the table of contents, I mean, I'll say that like sometimes with time, my favorite stories will change. But like right now looking at this, I think my favorite story is probably case study, a story that is told as a Victorian English case study. And it's from the perspective of the doctor who is treating the elephant man. He is very sympathetic, obviously, towards this poor subject, the elephant man who has, you know, all of these deformities and has a really hard life. And his, he invites, and this is a, sort of based on historical fact. He invites his wife to meet him, you know, so that he can have the experience of socializing with a person. And then the doctor becomes irrationally convinced that there's sparks flying between his wife and the elephant man. Yes. A lot of cocaine consumed in this tale. And he becomes, yeah, consumed by jealousy and addiction, just projecting all of his insecurities. And she is like, you know, dude, it's the elephant man. There's nothing there. But he can't let it go because

he's such an insecure man. And I just thought that I just really enjoyed writing that one. I loved kind of like playing with the super insecure ego of this male doctor. And yeah, I really, that's probably my favorite one right now. I'm wondering, lastly to wrap, since this is in part summer reading recommendations episode of our pod, you know, I would be remiss not to ask in addition to your complete published works, of course, if there's anything else that you might recommend to our listeners that they check out, like anything you have read recently that you really enjoyed, or anything

that you have found yourself reflecting on or thinking about as particularly impactful to your recent work? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I actually recommend some of the books I read to, like, you know, research some of these stories. Like in terms of pirate stories, Enemy of All Mankind by Stephen Johnson is like a great pirate book that came out a couple years ago, really help inspire that story. In terms of noir, one of my favorite noir writers is Chester Himes. He's amazing. He's most, I'll back check this since I got my computer here.

Yeah, he's most known the series of detective novels that I think became the basis of Shaft. But he also wrote some standalone. I think in terms of noir, The other person I really love is James Kane. It was super funny. He was a big inspiration on that. It turns of like more contemporary stuff.

I think like a lot of the funniest stuff happening is online. Like I think like some of the greatest short stories being written are like for like blogs, you know, on McSweeney's or other sites like that. And I'm really impressed by like some of the work being done by like Lucas Gardner. I think is hilarious. I think Jen Spira is great. I wish I could give you more. No, that was perfect.

I want to plug them all. That was great. That was great. Thank you for that. Everybody check out those recommendations. And of course, check out new teeth. Came out this Tuesday, July 27th, available wherever you get your books.

Simon, thank you so much for joining us today. This was awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks for the great questions. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Well, friends. the wolves have arrived for their holiday feast,

which means it's time to wrap today's show. Thank you, as always, to our intrepid producer and timekeeper Steve Allman, as well as to Mr. Minutes, Arjuna Ramgapal, T.D. Matthew Daniel, and the entire production team for their help with this episode. Thank you to the Lord of the memes,

Joe Mayadeneron, for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you, of course, to Michael Waldron, Simon Rich, and Zach Cram for joining me today. Remember, follow the ring of verse on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, follow us on social, and head back into the Ring Reverse next Wednesday

for more fun with the Midnight Boys. Poo-Pew! I'll be back with you next Friday. Until then, remember, for all time, always.