The Ringer-Verse - Jason Mantzoukas Part 1: ‘Invincible,’ Star Wars, MCU Excitement, and More

Episode Date: May 18, 2021

In the first part of a two-part chat, actor and friend of The Ringer Jason Mantzoukas enters The Ringer-Verse to talk with Mal about his work on the breakout show 'Invincible' and what it’s like to work with such captivating source material (07:38). They also discuss the latest Star Wars spinoff 'The Bad Batch,' what they hope to see from 'The Mandalorian' Season 3 (46:57), and their anticipation for 'Loki' and 'Black Widow.' Host: Mallory Rubin Guest: Jason Mantzoukas Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I am Mallory Rubin, co-hosts of Binge Mode, head of editorial here at the Ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the Guardians of the Globe headquarters, but to join us on this podcast feed for all things, nerd culture, and a fandom. And I am overjoyed. Overjoyed. Because we have a very special guest this week. Joining me today,

now that he's finished filling all of the milk cartons in sight with beer, it's friend of binge mode, friend of the watch, friend of the ringer, co-host of how did this get made, your favorite comedian, your favorite quarantine, beard grower, your favorite actor. You know him from Invincible, from close enough, from Big Mouth, from the Good Place, from Brooklyn Nine-N-N-9, from John Wick, from the league, from so many things. It is Rexpload himself.

Woo! Jason Manzukas! Here we go! Welcome into the ringerverse, buddy. Oh, I mean, like, get ready. I am prepared to be a ringered. Let's do this. By the end of this, I expect to be rung drive.

Oh my God. I'm so happy that you're here. Thrilled to be here, Mal. What a treat. I mean, are you kidding? Are you kidding? Are you kidding? We have so much to talk about. There is a lot to talk about. I know. We're going to talk about a lot today. In fact, we're going to talk about so much that we're going to publish this as a two-partner because we're going to go for hours. And I will issue a blanket spoiler warning for both parts for the multiple hours of conversation that we're about to share. We are going to be talking about Invincible.

We're going to be talking about the Bad Batch in Star Wars. We're going to be talking about the MCU. Jason's going to catch us up on everything that he's been watching and reading. So consider this a very broad general spoiler warning, your friendly neighborhood spoiler warning, to proceed with caution. And while we're here quickly, a couple other reminders. The Midnight Boys Van and Charles will of course be with you this Friday. Pugh, Poo! Tune in then.

and follow us. Follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us on all of our social feeds. And remember, proceed with caution on the spoiler warning front. All right, let's dive in. We just have so much to get to. Yeah. We got a lot to talk about. How's life, though? How are you, my friend? You know, now, here we are. Nearing our, the halfway, approaching halfway into 2021, which is crazy. Unbelievable. Absolutely surreal to hear you say that out loud. That can't be True. Wild stuff. What the last, you know, when last we spoke on binge mode, it was the beginning of the pandemic. You know, it was in the early months of the pandemic. And so now here we are at the end, as one article I read, put it, at the end of the beginning of the pandemic. So that we are not at

the beginning of the end. We are at the end of the beginning. So I'm terrified still. I remain very, very anxious and very stressed, but I have begun now being fully vaccinated and so forth, venturing out and doing some walks with people, doing some backyard socializing. And while I don't like it and it makes me anxious and then I have to come home and take like a 40-minute silkwood shower after every personal interaction. I do that too. I'm still washing my groceries. I'm still like, Me too. I'm still behaving like a fucking maniac. Still. So anyway, all of that to say, like, you know, I'm baby-stepsing. What about-Bogment free zone, man. I'm baby-stepsing my way out of my, what my behavior, which has led to me basically becoming,

in a, to be completely frank, in a state of privilege, like agoraphobic. Like, I don't leave my house. You know, it really is. I, you know, I spend most of my days. in this closet talking on podcasts or recording cartoon voices, and that's about it. Like, I've spent probably 300 hours in this closet this year, which I'm very grateful for because it's been my true connection to the outside world, being able to, like, both participate. You know, podcasts and audio format stuff, it's been my way of participating, seeing friends connecting with people, but also, like, on the flip side, like, I've consumed a tremendous amount of podcasts. And, and stuff like that. There's been an incredible amount of just digesting of media and material throughout

this year. This year has been like an incredibly dense amount of stuff going into my system. So I'm glad we're going to talk about some of it so we can, you know, we've got to spread the love to some of these shows. I feel the same way. Just got my second dose of my vaccine last week. Amazing. So that's exciting. I have also been consuming an incredible amount of content. And feeling, much like you described, that combination of a lack of connection and anxiety, but also real gratitude for all of the different ways, whether it's a Zoom conversation or a text thread with someone like you or actual programs. I will say, thank God that our text chain is processing the bad batch or is processing in the past

WandaVision. Like, I live for those conversations. Those are, like, my connections to people that I otherwise just, like, wouldn't have. I mean, like, imagine this year without, like, even without this degree of technological advancement. It would have been, like, shattering, you know. First thing I do after I finished Wanda Vision episode, or if we go back to, like, Mando's season two, whatever the case may be. Well, the first thing I do is dry my eyes, you know, mop up the tears, catch my breath. Second thing I do.

almost every time right away. Text to you and J. Go to our group chat and talk about how much these stories moved us and find that connection and that shared experience together. And I'm so grateful for that over the past year plus. One of the shows that brought me a real, real, real level not only of joy watching it, but joy in the subsequent discussions around the show that I got to share with other people who also were electrified by it was a show that you,

were in, Invincible. And that's one of the things that I wanted to talk about right from the start today. I'm excited to hear about everything else that you've been consuming and that you want to recommend. But we got to talk about Invincible for a few minutes because season one wrapped a couple weeks ago, still very fresh in everybody's minds. Season two and three, green lit, congrats. Thank you.

It was mostly due to me, mostly due to Rexblode. Rex gets all the credit. Amazon said we want it. We just, we want to see more Rexblode. We got to know what's up with this guy. I personally would love the Rex spin-off, which I assume is mostly just like a shower cam. There's a great, oh my God.

There is, like, there is, I will say thank you to the animators for animating Rex explode to have like a body that I would love to have. This dude is a stone cold hunk. It's crazy. So handsome, in fact. that another character on the show decided to clone his body. Yes. Because everybody is just wrapped.

You know, can't get enough of Rex's charts. Like we said, full spoilers for season one of Invincible. And I don't, I'm not even to be trusted. Invincible is based on a Robert Kirkman comic book series that ran for 15 years. That is an incredible piece of storytelling. And so, and I will say this, if anybody is. has been kind of inspired from the show to go and start picking up the comics, you will, you will, you know, not only really enjoy it, but it's just, it serves as an opportunity to kind

of deepen your understanding of these characters. And there is a side story that is the origins of Rex Blode and Adam Eve because they grew up together. And that's why they're a couple. And I don't know if that'll ever get told in the animated show, but it is a really incredible origin story for those two characters if you are reading along now because you loved the show. I started reading the comics because I loved the show and Steve, our wonderful producer, recommended them. He'd been reading them for years. I am, I believe, 22 issues in so far. Oh, great. So I'm loving them, loving them. I started reading a couple weeks into watching. So, of course, that would be four-ish episodes of Invincible In because of the three-episode initial release.

So I had that sort of strange, disorienting experience where I was watching and reading in tandem. And because there are so many similarities, and it's such a faithful adaptation, though there is also a lot that is new and altered. There were moments in the final weeks of the run where I couldn't quite separate what was happening where. but actually in a way that I think heightened the experience for me because it just amplified how immersive the world and the characters felt and like how much time I was spending thinking about them and with them and learning about their lives. I was curious to ask you about the comics, actually,

because obviously you're a huge comic book reader in general, as many of our listeners surely know. How long had these comics been in your life, had they been in your life prior to you joining the project? Oh, absolutely. So I read Invincible when it started coming out in issues, you know? Maybe I didn't start it at the very beginning, but pretty soon into its run. Sick flex.

They're from day one. Listen, I'm a comics nerd from back in the day. I'm also old. So, you know, I started, you know, like I'm 48 years old. And so, you know, the book started when I was an adult. So it was easy to pick. Well, I feel 84. Yeah.

Oh, my God. This year, I, my, the gray in my beard and hair has doubled, if not tripled. It's crazy. Let me tell you a true story. Quick sidebar. And then let's get back to your Invincible Comics origin. Yeah, great. Caught up with my mother, who I love dearly.

Of course. We all do. This time last weekend. And she remarked upon the voluminous nature of the gray in my hair. And then after that remark, I turned my head the other way. And I guess she hadn't seen that side yet. And she said, oh, wow. and that was after

she had already remarked upon how much gray was on the other side of my head. It's in stripes and streaks. My mother had a very serious reaction at a certain point to how much gray was in my beard. And I feel like that is, I feel like parents see their own mortality

inside of the aging of their children, the visual aging of their children. Like if I'm, like, to have a child that has this much gray hair, like is a real, like, oh, wait a minute. Like that's like the over. Glass is almost empty. It's like very unsub. I can see that that would be very unsettling, you know. Well, your beard is absolutely resplendent. My beard is huge. My beard is huge right now. It's really

nuts. It really is like, it is telling a story that I'm not sure I'm at this point comfortable telling. Like the beard is saying like, uh-oh, this guy's had a tough year. This guy. No. No. I don't think so. That's not what I see at all. I think it's beautiful. Really. Really. I think it's lovely. I hope you keep it forever. I'm curious to know what the upkeep is like. You know, it's, there's not, oh, very little. I mean, I just clean, I just, you know, like I wash it when I wash my face and hair and that's it. Yeah. Not like a special conditioner. What kind of like a comb? I don't put anything in it. I don't put any, I don't put any, like, people have like products for beards and stuff. I don't use any of that stuff. You know, I'm just like, I'm just like a, it's just like, look at it. I'm cleaning it and that's all it

needs. You know, it's just kind of like, you know, like, and mostly the little bugs that live in it take care of all the big stuff. So, it reminds me of the little mittens who infest the hair in Hilda. Oh my God. Don't even get me started on Hilda. We can tell, we will, I can talk about Hilda for the rest of the day. But you were to asking me about the Invisible Comics. So I was a fan. So Kirkman, Robert Kirkman, who also created the Walking Dead, which is another very long cumulative single story telling piece of storytelling

that one of the things that I like about Kirkman is a storyteller he's currently writing a book right now called Firepower being drawn by one of my absolute favorite comics artists and cartoonist Chris Somni

that they're like 12 or 13 issues into at this point but Kirkman tells these huge long sprawling stories and what I love about them is unlike other superhero stories or other comics narratives,

they don't kind of continuously reset to kind of bring you back to a status quo so that you can kind of keep telling the same types of stories. So like in Invincible, like Invincible the comics series, market begins at 15 and the book unfolds over 15 years. So he's basically 30 at the end. He ages in real, like we watch like this, the story in the comics is,

is a single storyline. So the consequences of actions that occur in early issues are born out 10 years later. Like what's incredible is Kirkman will sit on something for years and suddenly like, what, Doc Seismic is back or something crazy like that, you know? Wow. He will really keep. And when you read it like this, like you're reading it all at once, it's like, it was, there was a little bit of difficulty in issues reading it,

keeping up like month to month. But I just read it over quarantine, I reread it over quarantine, just like you're reading it all at once. And to read it is such a, it's such a satisfying experience because it is one big, huge, long story that is really satisfying

and an incredibly rich set of characters that he just continues to build out, which is essentially the same as The Walking Dead, well. One big, long, cumulative story, and that's another comic that if you haven't read, is an exceptional piece of storytelling. And like working within these genres, Kirkman is always finding very human character-driven stories to tell inside of genre stories that we understand all too well. Superheroes, zombie apocalypse, all these kind of things. We get the tropes and the archetypes, but he's telling stories about these people. And that's what I love about his

books primarily, especially those two. But Invincible, you know, I read when it came out. I read when it and I loved it. And then I got to know Kirkman a little bit. And like I moderated a few like Comic-Con panels for The Walking Dead. And I did a couple of other like stuff with him. So when he was putting together Invincible, I was very honored that he was like, do you want to come play? We're Expload. And I was like, no. Amazing. Never. No, I couldn't have been more excited. So to do it has been really fucking cool. To be in the booth doing lines that I knew.

It's also very faithful in a lot of ways. He changes stuff and stuff has moved around a little bit, but in a lot of ways, very faithful to the characters and some of the iconic lines. There's great stuff. What was the process of making it actually like? I'm curious, given the, in quarantine release, how much was scripted and recorded before and locked.

Everything was locked. Yes. So we had done all of, because the animation takes so long on the, like the actual animating takes so long, we had already recorded the, so the first thing you do is you record like just an audio track of everybody's vocals. And that gets sent to the animators and they animate to that. And then when that comes back, they kind of go in and tinker. We might re-record some lines here or there, or they might change stuff as they now see

something that's come back that looks like basically an animatic or something like that. A rough draft of an episode. And, you know, this is the case for most animation, you know, big mouth works like this. Other shows work like this as well. For Invincible, so we'd recorded all of the dialogue. Like I'd done all my sessions in a studio. You know, and we did the Invincible as a show we did like solo. Like I didn't record with.

This is my next question because the cast is so mind-bogglingly loaded. Like truly one of the best ensembles ever assembled. I actually don't think that type of mind. No, it's nuts. It's insane. Both, both every time I would arrive, whoever would be leaving, I would be blown away by. And then when I would leave, whoever would be arriving, I would be. arriving, I would be double blown away by.

You know, like, it really was staggering and so satisfying because, and also for me, like a lot of these people are people that I'm obsessed with or that I love, you know, like, and I'm a fan of. So to be in the same show with them is awesome.

Even if I didn't get a chance to, like, sit in the studio and do stuff with them. It still was totally rad because the show is, obviously because, and for those who might not have been watching or watched, This is an animated superhero show that is an hour long and leans more towards like a drama, dramedy kind of gory genre exercise.

It is not. It is extremely violent and incredibly gory and bloody and really fun but intense in a good way. So this is not like a comedy. A lot of people know me as like a, you know, like I said, Big Mildo. or like a close enough big mile, you know, like Big Mell's a big comedy. The Invincible is not a comedy, I would say. It's certainly funny. There's jokes in it that are great, but it is, it's not a comedy.

So we don't, we're not improvising. We're not like going crazy. So a lot of times the lines are pretty much the lines. So it wasn't, you know, and I might improvise because Robert would always be there and we could pitch stuff back and forth. But it was, it was a blast because he's great. They had great people and the scripts were incredible. And I was just, again,

I was stoked to be doing a character that I'd read for years. So it was neat. Were you certain given the fandom that you already had in place for the story, that it would resonate the way that it has with the viewership? Because it really took hold in an incredible way. I think that the genre description that you already shared, that highly adult quality is something that people talk about a lot. I think another thing that you heard often over the course of the run,

of, you know, comparisons to another Amazon superhero show, The Boys, in terms of this, like, subversive element to the storytelling. I'm curious if you knew that this would find the audience and spark the level of conversation and engagement that it has. And also what through lines and similarities you see with something like The Boys, but also what in your mind makes Invincible really so specific and so hyper-unique, because it really does feel unlike anything else. And I think one of the, brilliant things about it is that when you first come to it, whether it's in the comics or whether it's in the show and you meet the original Guardians, for example, there's that, and it's a deliberate trick, right? Like, hooking you in, oh, I know, I know these archetypes. Like, I know what kind of

story this is going to be. And then that's all twisted and spun on its head. And that's the point in the premise to kind of unsettle you and disrupt what you're expecting. And then you sink in so quickly, and the pacing, obviously, in the comics and the show with the Omneman reveal is different, right? That's, and we said, again, we said, spoiler, so you've been warned. No more warnings from here. We'll probably give you like 50 more warnings. But the Omni Man reveal is in episode one and the full clarity of why unfolds later in the season. But that's what, issue seven in the comics?

That's later on. I think so, yeah, yeah. With all of that, the specific nature of the story, what similarities do you see, what makes it feel hyper unique, and are you at all surprised that it has struck the chord that it has? You know, for me, I felt like it was clear they were making something that was really, like, incredible, in my opinion.

Like, when I got the script, I was like, I was blown away that they were making it a one hour, that they were making it, like each episode is basically 45 minutes, you know, like the equivalent of, of like a network one hour. I was blown away by how the scripts maintained the intensity and the kind of like emotional arcs of the book that they weren't kind of, I was so heart. As a fan of the comics, I was like, oh, yes, this is the show I want to watch. I am, I could not be more excited. I did have the fear, though, of like, oh, I hope that Oates,

People who aren't like me, who aren't comics people who, like my friends who I can't convince to watch Bojack or I can't convince to watch Archer because they're like, I don't know, I don't get into animation. You can just say Chris Ryan's name right here. But you know what? Yes. Thank you for calling Chris Ryan out. Chris Ryan is on the watch day in and day out, week in and week out, out in these

streets saying that I don't watch animation. I don't like things. are drawn. I don't read comic books. I only like sports and gangs of London or zero zero zero. You know, watch less foreign television, Chris Ryan, and watch some of our American animated shows. No, so I did feel like, oh, is there going to be a portion of the audience that I believe would love this show, but who will miss out on it? just won't give it a chance. They just look at the thumbnail and are like, oh, they've got some new animated show. And they don't know that the tone of it is perfect for them, that it is this kind of funny,

acerbic, rye, violent, gory kind of commentary on superheroes and superhero tropes and superhero stuff. And it really is the comic book, as you will continue to read through the series, the comic book a lot of times Kirkman uses the comics as an opportunity to comment on comic books themselves because, you know, Invincible himself is a comics reader, you know. And so there's a lot of like, there's a lot of Kirkman kind of, you know, dunking on comics culture with it at the time of the writing of the book. So it's fun. There's a lot in here that is very fun, very funny, very inside, but very, like, accessible. There's individual storytelling that has universal appeal that is so exceptional, but my fear was that people wouldn't find it because it was animated. And there's a lot of adults

who just don't have that, their frequencies tuned into animation. So I was so excited when I started to hear from people who were like that I would not think of as, oh, I'm watching the new animated show on Amazon. I got emails and texts from people who were like, do you. I'm watching this show and you just showed up in it. Holy shit. This is my new favorite show. And like, you know, so much fandom, so much an explosion of positivity. The reviews are great, which really only kind of made me feel validated because I was like,

yes, I'm so excited. And I really want this to find its audience. And it found a huge audience. So that was really exciting because, and I think it's very, it goes back to kind of Kirkman's mastery of storytelling in a lot of ways, which is, The Omneman reveal at the end of episode one, which just, again, we've said spoilers, but we'll say it again. Episode one introduces like the Justice League of the globe. They're called the Guardians of the Globe.

They are analogs to the heroes that we know, the Flash and, you know, all the kind of Wonder Woman, all the kind of heroes that we understand. And the Superman of this world, who is the father of Invincible, the lead character is a teenage boy who's just starting to get his superpowers. His father is like a Superman analog. But at the end of episode one, Omni Man kills the rest of the heroes. Brutely. Savagely. And dismembers them. In a way that is...

Shocking moments. Shocking. And in comics, it was like you'd been with... these people for issues months. Like, think of it if you'd been getting this book in issues for the first seven months you're engaging and like you're getting familiar with

and you're investing your time and energy into like, oh, getting to know this world and these characters. And then Omneman just like full on tearing people in half, ripping, like eviscerating people. There's guts and viscera all over

the floor of Guardians' headquarters. It's amazing. The adaptation to the animated series is somehow even gorier and more incredible and so satisfying and so incredible. And to put it at the end of the first episode, I thought was really smart, because that's the hook. The hook is really once, because I got so many texts from people that were like, holy shit, I didn't know what? This is crazy. And that surprise, I feel like really hooked people in. In the same way that like, it's not as I would say kind of, dystopian as the boys, which is a show that I love.

Me too. And a book that I read, another book that I read as it was coming out. And I like the changes they've made to me. The show is better for me than the comic series, The Boys. How does the level of breast milk consumption compare? It's like, you know what? I'll be honest with you. If you're in it for the breast milk consumption, both are good options.

If that's why you're showing up, if that's why you're showing up, but I mean like the TV show, you know, probably you're going to have more, you know, it's just going to be more breast milk stuff going on, you know? You know, it depends. Like, what are you coming to a show for? Is it breast milk consumption? Then I have a, then please visit my blog. You know, it's called The Milkdown, where I rate all shows based on their amount of breast milk

and how much of it is consumed. I'm sure something like that is actually currently on the internet, actually. I'm certain. No, I mean, like, and this is not the, this is the second time. I've pitched also on an episode of Comedy Bang Bang that I've going to start hosting a show called Dripp and Milk that is also about lactating people. So now it's a pattern and people are going to notice it. I've got competing breast milk things.

This is not good. Why do they have to be competing? I know. I got to put them together. Call me. I'll put it on a Spotify comic. The boys, I feel like, you know, the boys really kind of, like, has a dark edge to it, and I really love it. And it has, like, a very kind of dystopian look at superheroes, the same way that I feel like a lot of, a lot of contemporary kind of superhero stories are about the inherent mistrust of the heroes or the inherent, like, watchman has this.

Yeah, who watches the watchman, you know? And that is such a post-average. potent storytelling device. And I think that Invincible, while it has certain components of like, what if Superman broke bad, you also have like this incredibly, like the lead character is this idealistic, this young kid who is like does not want it to be the case and is learning how to, or trying to learn how to figure out how to do this right. And so there's a slightly, I don't know, there's a little bit, there's a little bit more

optimism. There's a little bit more in Invincible. There's a little bit more of a, I guess, like, I love the journey of this character as he kind of goes through, you know, there's just so much to come. I mean, like, there's so much space stuff in the books. There's so, I'm just like, it's also a story that I'm like, the sprawl and scope of Invincible the comic book can only be done in animation. Like a live action attempt, I think would be, I mean, listen, maybe they could do it with, you know, like the volume technology now that Lucasfilm has and stuff like that. Those incredible, you know, ways they're making stuff really immersive, feel really immersive right now.

To me, like, Invincible has such scale and scope that, like, animation I'm just, I think is going to, like, really be fucking incredible for this series. I love it. I love the look of it. I love the feel of it. It really is one of the best things I've seen in a long time. I was thinking back to a conversation that I had with one of my. colleagues, Micah Peters. He's a staff writer here at the Ringerer. He hosts a podcast called Sound Only, and he's a big fan of the show. And he wrote a great article about it. He's talked about it on his pod.

And one of the things that he said that I thought was really astute and really interesting and tapped into why it gripped me so fully is that everything that we've already talked about does make it subversive. But one of the things that Micah said is that the thing that, the thing that actually makes it subversive. The real subversion at the heart of the approach to the story is that it's actually a family drama. Yeah. Oh, totally.

I just love the way that Michael put that, and that is at the heart of what I love about the show because, you know, and this is a throughline, of course, of so many of the stories that we love and so many of the listeners of this pod love, it's a coming of age story for Mark. It's a suburban family drama. You know, the episode where Mark is thinking about college and off to college, it's like, it's not even a, you can't say it's a bottle episode because it's obviously connected to the other key characters of the show.

And we can see already how the, and this gets to the point you already made about. I do think you could feel this even watching season one, how the, the vines that's, that's spread in one episode are going to make their way across future episodes, future seasons. and be present for quite some time. Mark wants to go on dates. Mark wants to hook up with girls. Mark wants to go to the comic book store and meet his favorite author and then feels let down

when he sees like that he wants to take shortcuts. That's the stuff I love. That's the, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, undo, like, undo, like, big things. I want to, I want the Spider-Man,

I want that, that, I want to, I want that, that friction between like, wait, just because of invincible, does it mean, like, I don't want to go to Mars to protect these guys. I want to, like, have a girlfriend. I want to have my first girlfriend. You know, like, so much of the tension in season one is how much Mark's new superhero powers and responsibilities are causing him to become distant and lose the first girlfriend he's ever had. And also, like underneath all of that is this, like you're saying, family drama. this simmering kind of, you know, detective story in which Debbie is finding out and figuring out that her husband, who, you know, she has known is Omneman all this time, but has only understood

him to be a truly benevolent figure, is figuring out that he killed the Guardians of the globe. And to her, it is really why. You know, like, and so you're following all of these intricately plotted family storylines and real-life storylines, you know, mark daydreaming, like, oh, my God, maybe I'll get to go to college when in reality, cataclysmic events are befalling these people constantly on a planetary killing level, you know, like the, and it only gets more so, you know? And so the storyline is constantly bouncing back and forth between these giant set pieces, these fights, these, you know, all these fights that we love, everybody loves to talk about the fights, right? Everybody loves to dig in on like how incredible the fights are, and they are incredible.

They are so incredibly animated. The fight between Omneman and Invincible in the last episode is in, it's like basically a 45-minute fight that goes all over the world and is incredible, right? Like, that's incredible. All the fights are incredible, but I think the reason that those fights are so, they, they, they, they pack the punch that they do, pun intended, is because you understand, like, the weight of what's behind them.

Yeah, you know, you understand that, like, that these are, this is like a father trying to kill his son because his son refuses to, like, acknowledge that they should, he and his father, that he should join his father in ruling Earth rather than protecting Earth. You know, it's this incredibly difficult reveal. And again, spoilers for Invincible. But listen, if you're still listening at this point, you watch the show.

So like that is like the story to the character building and world building of the family and the friends too. Amber and William and all of these characters. Like they've done such a great job building out this world that like they can do stuff like give you huge fight scenes. But then they also do this wonderful thing a lot to. which is they'll give you something that looks like it's a fight scene. Like the first time Mark meets Alan the alien who is voiced by Seth Rogen, Mark flies out, they see somebody's coming to attack the Earth. Mark flies out.

They fight for a minute. And then they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What do we find? They realize there's a bit of miscommunication that Alan the alien thinks he was supposed to be going to Erath. And Mark is like, no, this is Earth. And then instead they sit down on the moon and have a conversation. Yes.

And that's what Invincible is. Invincible is a show that has like two pages of fighting that's awesome. And then another couple of pages of a great conversation. And that's where I feel like the show takes from the comics really, what they take from the comics really well is both of those things. You know, this isn't just a show about superhero set pieces, like an adventure of the week. This is a show about these characters learning, growing, evolving throughout all of these

gigantic cataclysmic kind of world-ending events that are befalling them, you know, and that they have to engage with, as well as the coming of age story that you mentioned earlier. The finale is really, I think, one of my favorite episodes of TV in a long time. And it's for the reason that you just mentioned. Like, yes, it is this massive set piece and fight sequence. It is not only a scope and scale, but a level of horror that is almost inconceivable, like watching not only what Omni Man does to Mark directly,

but what he makes Mark realize he can do to other people. Oh, yeah. Driving him through the subway. And his body becomes this, this weapon, this blade, this cudgel that turns everything in its wake into dust and grime and gore. Using Mark, using Mark to destroy human beings to prove to him that they are beneath him.

Yes, the thing that you want to protect literally cannot exist in front of you. They're so weak. The thing that I loved and couldn't stop, about after that episode, though, and Van and Charles talked about this in their instant reaction episode on the Nally. Midnight Boys Pew View, exactly, was the conversation about Debbie and how she's like a pet. This is one of the most devastating things that a character has ever said. Now, in the comics, and I had already, I had already, so I had gotten past the show

in the comics at this point. So I had seen, the showdown between Omneman and Invincible in the comics. I had read that already. And it's even more withering, actually, the pet comment on the page than it is on the show. I was grateful, actually, that there's like a little more. Well, yeah, I do love her. But the way I love a pet, now, of course, you know me like, the love I have for a pet surpasses the love for anything else in my life. So I was like, wait.

Protect Debbie in the moment. Yeah. Is that supposed to be like the diminishment? some sort. But anyway, I recognized how most people would perceive that comment. And it is so unbelievably heart-wrenching and the ability to Trojan horse that emotional impact and that level of humanity into a sequence that is that oriented around action is just really rare. And then to go back, you know, from the finale all the way to the premiere and the Omni Man twist, like I was thinking about how in the wake of a little show

that we've discussed a few times before called Game of Thrones I think in the wake by the way I'm just so excited for House of the Dragon I can't stop looking at the Instagram I'm so excited in the wake of Game of Thrones

I don't know if this observation will make sense I'm curious for your take on this let's do it Baylor the red wedding on and on and on the list goes, the idea of the twist and the subversion

and losing characters and upending our expectations because of what Game of Thrones achieved in its earlier seasons and the level of cultural resonance and relevance that it brought. I almost think we ended up with a

reverse effect at a certain point where so many other shows try to then shock us Yeah, and make you be like, oh, don't trust us. Right. Oh, who's going to pull a red wedding next? Like, when are we going to lose these characters that we think are going to be with us forever?

And I think it actually just makes it all the more impressive that invincible was able to pull that off. Because viewers are now trained to expect things like that, to look for things like that. Maybe not in episode one. But you're on the edge of your seed to not get. comfortable, right? To know that you shouldn't be comfortable for long. And so to feel completely floored and that impressed, I think it's just really hard and really rare. And it's something that I'm still thinking about now, you know, multiple months after watching that premiere, I can't wait, I can't wait to see where this is going. And then, you know, to zip back to the finale,

get that really artful montage of all the mounting threats, all of those other characters and those webs and the threads in the web that are building around Mark and around Earth, around humanity. And I was excited and intrigued and ready for more on all of those storylines. But I was also like, I just, I think I'm thinking about the characters. I'm thinking about whether Mark's going to be okay and what's next for him as a person. And that, that is a delicate balance to be able to pull off. Absolutely. And what I love about it is, much like Game of Thrones, our beloved Game of Thrones, the source material has it. Like, it's all there.

Like, as you'll read as you go forward in the comics, like Invincible The Comics is full of shocking reveals, cliffhangers, enormous events, catacly surprisingly surprising villain turns, hero turns, all of this is inside that we've already seen in season one. again, no spoilers for anything in the future. We've already seen in passing in season one some of the, some major players

from the rest of the series Invincible, but we've seen them in a brief moment, you know? The story is massive, but it is always about the family. It is always about their family and it is always about moving their family forward. Like it's, it really is, is simultaneously like a story about like a, you know, a nuclear family, but it is, and as, as that

nuclear family grows as well, but it is also the story of like, it's a space epic. It's an earth superhero story. It is, it's all these other things, but because I think Robert is so good at giving you the same way that, you know, The Walking Dead, the comic book series, The Walking dead is so much about Rick and Carl and their growing family. It really is about humanity and figuring out. It's not about zombies. It's not about, you know, like, are we going to outrun the zombies? It's really about like, what is humanity? What is society? Like, how do we function as human beings? What does it matter? Like, how do we understand the mistakes we've made and not fall into the same? Anyway, blah, blah, blah, blah. I guess what I'm saying is just like the, just like the, just like

Game of Thrones, all of the great reveals, all of the great surprises are in these comics. And Robert being at the helm of this, and this is unlike Game of Thrones, this text is done. This story is written. Right. Like this comic book ended a number of years ago, you know. And so we're going to get, in success, I hope, we're going to get to the end of the show. And it will have, we will have told Robert's story. And that's, you know, one of my.

I hope that that is exactly what gets to happen because it's a story that deserves telling. And it ends incredibly satisfyingly, unlike Game of Thrones, which, which. So no one forgets about the Iron Fleet in Invincible. Yes. Every, yeah, we, you know, listen, Brin isn't going to end up king uninvincible and, you know, we're not going to have, oh boy, oh boy. You know, so that, you know, it is like. It is a surprising show.

It's, oh, my God. It's, oh, I could, we could just get into that. We could get into that heartbreak and the heartbreak of Rise of Skywalker and talk for the rest of the time we have. Well, I do want to talk about Star Wars because I want to talk about another animated gem of Star Wars, the Bad Batch. Before we move on to that quickly, anything you want to tease for us for future invincible seasons. I mean, I don't because I don't know anything. I can't say anything. But, you know, what I will say is, like, if you're, if you are listening to this and you liked the show, buy the comics.

Like, it really is a fantastically good story. Like, if you are, even if you're someone that is like, I don't read comic books or I never read comics or if you enjoyed the TV show, buy the comics. And if you enjoy the comics, by the Walking Dead comics. Or, you know what I mean? Like, this is storytelling you will enjoy. If you're enjoying these stories, you will enjoy the other stories. by, we've talked about saga before, by paper girls, by, there's lots of comics that scratch this same itch that I feel like people would love.

So I can't spoil anything for upcoming seasons of Invincible, although I suspect, based on how true to the source material they were in season one, you could probably read the comics and pick up a lot of clues if you wanted to, you know, and I'm not going to spoil it for you, but the comics are terrific. I've been having a blast reading them. I'm excited to keep going and to finish soon. You'll be hearing from me about them. Oh, I can't.

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in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to close that score high and both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect. I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the metapant,

that's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com slash Simmons. and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. Bad batch time. Bad batch. How are you enjoying it so far?

I'm enjoying this, you know? I am really, I really, I'll be honest, when it was announced, I was like, okay, cool. That's cool. I don't mind it. But it wouldn't have been one of my top three, like, oh, I wish they would do blanks. So I went back and I watched

the four issues of the season seven of Clone Wars that introduced the Bad Batch and then started the series and I am like fully enjoying it. Like I'm really... It's been really strong. I will say this and I said this to you over text. The minute, the minute, the show opened

and someone referred to Deppapalaba being on the scene, I was like, started to cry instantly. Me too. Because I was like, holy shit. I know. We're about to see a young Canaan Jaris. Caleb Doom is about to be in this show.

And then when we watch Order 66 happen and we watch Caleb Doom become so confused by what's going on as the as the as the as the as the as the clones turn against his master. And as she tells him to run. and, I mean, R.I.P. Be like one of the greats. Like, she was betrayed. Like, like, all the rest. Everybody that we see get killed. All I wanted was, like, to be like, oh, so corny. You know, like, oh, why would they do that? Oh, it's so manipulative or whatever. I had nothing bad to say about it. I was sobbing. I was. Same. When Hunter goes after him, right? Is it Hunter that goes? after him. He's like, come on, kid, come on. And Caleb instead doesn't trust him and runs away. When we watch the characters, when we watch all of the clones who we've been watching for years of the Clone Wars, you know, years we've been with with Rex and Cody and Echo and fives and heavy and 99 and, you know, all of these clones. My beloved 99. I mean, come on. Come on. We watched them. We We've watched them train.

We've watched them come together as a team. I mean, RIP, what was his name? Who was the funny one? Cut up. Cut up. Yeah. R-I-P cut up. From Domino Squad.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, like, there's a lot of time spent with the clones. So to really sit in those moments where Order 66 is executed and they start to cut down the Jedi. is devastating. It's devastating to sit in that and be like, oh, this is where the clones that are our friends,

that are our allies, turn into stormtroopers. Like, you're watching the birth of stormtroopers. And now, as the series has gone on, I'm really intrigued by this kind of, oh, we want to, you know, we want to get rid of clones and go to an all-conscript army,

this idea of making stormtroopers out of, like people that they, rather than the Geocean clones that they've been building, we're just going to have a conscript army from all the places that we've conquered. That's interesting. I'm intrigued by that. I'm also just so in on the clones of the 99 not knowing that knowing they're special, but not knowing why it's not working on them and the heartbreak of losing crosshair. And then the benefit of gaining Omega.

and what she now is like representative of for them is a blast. I'm like, I'm loving this show. I completely agree. I really thought the Canaan moment was incredible. Incredible. And it could have been, it could have felt like fan service or it could have felt like. But it didn't at all. A moment.

Okay, so, okay, I'm going to compare it to. So we both, one of our like most vibrant text threads was Mandalorian season two. you, me and Jason. And I will say, I will speak only for myself. I was disappointed when Luke Skywalker showed up in the final episode. I did not want it to be Luke Skywalker. I wanted it to be Ezra, too. But then Luke worked for me more than I thought it was.

Luke was fine. I just, my personal thing is, I don't need any more Skywalker's. I don't need any more. Skywalkers to show up in my stories. I don't need them. I'm, I'm, listen, I'm 48. I was there from the beginning of Skywalker's. I've just, I've lived with it enough. Like, I wanted it to be anybody else. There was a way in which I, there was other people, there are other Jedi. So I was a little bit disappointed. But in a way that, like, when they gave us young Canaan Jaris, I wasn't disappointed at all. I was like, this is additive only. This is an

incredible connection to me. I agree on the Canaan point fully, and I think that it, you know, I've mentioned this the last couple weeks, but it feels very emblematic to me of why Star Wars is in such good hands

with Faloni and why the Faloni verse feels so wholly connected and fully realized in a way that some reason Star Wars has not. It's interesting.

I mean, like, you could argue that, like, Faloni's corner of the universe is cohesive in a way because he has and exerts the same producorial control over it that Kevin Feige does for Marvel. Faloni, I think, understands what we care about when we talk about Star Wars. Yes. I think that the, we certainly don't need to, you know,

re-ignite the firestorm around the Last Jedi or anything like that. I've been, I love that movie. It's my favorite of the recent movies. That and Rogue One. Yeah, I love both of those. And the dissonance and the not only reluctance, but almost fear that seeped in and took over between the Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker

was one of the most disappointing things about it. And the Falloniverse is contrary to that in almost every respect. there's just a total command and confidence in the storytelling that I think I think you're exactly right. It stems from his fandom and his inherent and innate understanding of why Star Wars matters to so many people and what is at the heart of a Star Wars story that works. And using that understanding to help all of these stories be better, right? like by by giving us that that opening scene for fans it works because you're watching order 66 blah blah blah you know you're watching something that you know so well if you really are a fan and

you know rebels then you even more are dialed into this moment you're like oh my god i'm watching i'm watching the moment i know i know canaan jeras so well i'm watching like his origin story this is incredible you know i will say shouts to the audiobooks that is the story of how Kane and Jaris met Harris Indula. And it is, it's a book book too, but I listen to it as an audio book. You have audiobooks? I love audio. In the Star Wars world, I love audiobooks.

They are perfect for, I mean, I've sat and done so many jigsaw puzzles this year, listening to all of the Thron audiobooks, listening to a bunch of the Timothy Zon Star Wars audiobooks that are all fantastic, like fantastic. If you want to understand Thron and what is likely to be one of the next, like, most significant villains to enter into our world, like, in two years or in one year, I don't know exactly because of COVID and everything, how long it's going to get bumped. But in two years, everybody is going to be talking about Grand Admiral Thron. And I'm telling you now, like, read these books. Understand what the Chis Ascendancy is all about. Like, get involved with the Chis Ascendancy.

How many puzzles have you done during quarantine? You mentioned puzzles. Oh, my God. So many puzzles. What's your favorite one? I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to think. I did one that was like, it was a painting of a scene that was like cobblestone streets,

but all the buildings were like stone roofs and all the buildings were bricks. So all of it looked similar. So it was very difficult. Oh. Everything was patterned like small bricks and stones. So it was very hard. So it was really difficult and really satisfying. That sounds really fun.

I've been doing a lot of Legos. I've been making a lot of Lego sets. In fact, I built, speaking of Star Wars, I built the Millennium Falcon recently and Boba Fett's Helmet. And I love the Bulletin. Whoa. That's amazing. I love the Millennium Falcon.

That's a great one. It's right over my shoulder. Right there, actually. Oh, yeah. I see it. Okay, great. Right under Mileneer. That's right.

Grogo's over there somewhere. Anyway. Oh, Grogo. Oh, man. We really, our text thread lit up when we found out his name was Grogu. Oh my God. That was a lot of discussion. A lot of discussion.

But now, full blown in. Now I'm full blown in. I was like, I think I said, I will never get used to this. I will never like this. And now I have a Grogu in my house. And I'm like, Grogoo, I talk to him all the time. I'm alone. Feels right.

I believe, listen, I believe I texted you a picture of me drinking champagne with Grogu on New Jersey. Oh, God. Listen, listen, at least, at least you had someone to kiss that night. I think I kissed Grogu that night. We've shared, we've shared so much this year, he and I. Beautiful. What a bond.

What a bond. But I'm like, I'll be honest. Like, I'm full-blown, I'm loving Bad Batch. And it has been like, I've also then, as a result, been re-watching huge swaths of clone wars. and I did a podcast a couple, like a month or so ago, these guys wanted to talk about the pilot of rebels. And so I was like, yeah, great, let's talk about it.

And so I did that and then just ended up watching the rest of rebels again. I really, I'm badly craving, especially after seeing Caleb Doom, I'm badly craving a rebels rewatch. I'm in the middle of a full Clone Wars rewatch. Let me tell you something. It's great, and I'm loving it. and fewer things in this world bring me more joy than cartoon Obi-Wan. Just love it.

I know. I knew this was happening. This is my best. The best. I am, I cannot tell you how badly I hope that these recent, Ewan McGregor comments about filming a scene for the Kenobi show with somebody who is very important to him, I can't tell you how badly I hope those are Duchess Satee flashback. If it's not, there's got to be a Duchess Soutine. Please, there's got to be.

God, give me those flashbacks. I need it. I would also, if it's not a flashback, I would not only happily settle for, but perhaps prefer an X-rated dream sequence. That would also be great. I think, you know what I think? I think you should just start freelance writing scenes

and just posting them. Just write scenes to be in. inserted into spec, spec scenes. You should write spec sex scenes for Obi-1 that are just, that you just post and are like, hey, it's free. If you want to, I'm not going to, I won't arbitrate with the Writers Guild. You guys can just use these open source, Obi-1, Canobi. And don't worry if, uh, if Jora Mormont is in the background, like, don't question it too much.

Steve, we have next week's episode, buddy. Lock it in. come on, I will come on and read. Oh my God. Don't tempt me. I will do this. Oh, my God. Which voice would you do? All of them? Would you do all of the voices? No, no, I would do whatever voice you wanted me to do. You're the writer-director. You cast this. Not me. I'm just here. I'm not, you know, I'm like a, I'm a side player in that.

If I was to be in the Obi-1 show, I don't know. I'd want to be a villain, I think. I think that would be fun. A villain on Tatoo-Ean. Some sort of bounty hunter is what I would assume. like that somehow I feel like it would be You would be a great bounty hunter. I agree. What would your get up be? Like what sort of gear would you carry?

I would like, that's such a good. I would like it to be like all just like robes. I would like it to be like a just like really like. So is that part of your disguise? Like do you pretend to be a Jedi? Is that part of your whole approach? Oh yeah.

Yeah. I like, here's what I want. Here's my pitch. My pitch is I want to be someone who goes around who has a light. So you're like, you're grievous. You kill, you slay Jedi. No.

You take their lightsabers. I go around. I got, I, I'm like a guy who got a lightsaber. Okay. And I go around pretending to be a Jedi. Okay. To be fair, not hard to get because the Jedi constantly drop them. They're everywhere. There's so many.

People have, people like are leaving lightsabers around like crazy. You know, no, but I mean like, you know, my guy picks up a lightsaber at like a tattooing flea market. He gets it to work and he starts acting like a Jedi but he's not. He's doing it out of selfish interest and so he's like people think he's a Jedi but he's not.

I love this. Obi-One has to come and be like, hey, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't, this is stolen valor. Hitch for you. If we put this at the right point in the timeline, ventress as a love interest. Yes, all in, yes.

I will, I will stone cold French Assange Venture. hard. Honestly, any of the Knights Sisters, I would I would seriously date any of the Knight Sisters. Same.

They really lead into the look and it's working. Oh, it is very erotic. Oh, my God. Nothing makes me happier than how horny you are for animated Obi-1 on podcasts. It is like true joy.

My husband got me a poster of animated Obi-1 is one of my Hanukkah gifts. And it was honestly really meaningful to me. Did you feel seen? I did. I was like six years into marriage. There's still hope.

This is great. You know what I watched a couple of weeks ago because they just put it up on Disney Plus was Gendie Tartatovsky's Clone Wars, which was fantastic. You know, and that is, that is General Grievous. That is, there's so much of the DNA of what would become Faloni's Star Wars inside of it. But it's, if you liked, Gandy Tartatovsky did like Samurai Jack and an amazing animated show called Primal last year. If you like his stuff, that kinetic energy, it's basically all fight sequences and it's awesome. It's incredible.

I actually haven't rewatched it since it's been on Disney Plus, but I'm excited to because you used to have to like chase that down on YouTube either. And, you know, it find the individual was just like three minute episodes. Yeah, because they're all like super brief episodes. Yeah, or find a mashup that would sometimes then be pulled down. It's really cool that's out there for more people to find now. I believe this might be trading in an apocryphal story, but I believe what happened was Phantom Menace came out and was so poorly received that they were selling a fraction of the amount of toys they thought they were going to sell.

So between the first prequel and the second prequel, they let Gendi Tartatovsky make these series of shorts that would then play to try and get people excited to buy the toys. Unbelievable. It always comes back to merch. It literally was a marketing thing to try and get people to be more excited about the toys and build up these characters that were just simply not selling. Incredible. And much like in the Star Wars prequels, that version of Clone Wars features numerous sequences of Anakin and Padman. kissing where anybody can see them

should they choose to look. They're just right there. They really need to work on their self. Yeah, it's like, it's crazy to me when you think about, just like conceptually the idea that nobody, they're not fooling anybody. When you watch these movies,

they are not fooling anybody. And I don't under, it doesn't make any sense. None of Anakin and Padmay makes sense to me. I recently rewatched, Because as I decided to rewatch the Clone Wars, I thought, well, I'll just do a full Star Wars rewatch. So I rewatched Phantom Menace and then went on to Attack of the Clones,

then started Clone Wars and then was like, let me just get Sith in here as well. I actually watched Sith on May the 4th, wanted to watch a Star Wars movie. The sequence where Anakin returns and Padmae tells him that she's pregnant, they are, Jason and I must have talked about this on binge mode for 17 hours. they are just simply standing in the open and they are sort of partially obscured by a pillar

but only if every other person on Caroussaint were standing completely behind the pillar from the other side of it. Otherwise, there's no cover. I'll give you one more thing. I'll give you one more thing. mustn't any force sensitive person who is nearby sent,

through the force, what is going on around, between them at all times. If you were to be, if you were a force sensitive person and you were to be in the proximity of Anakin and Padmay, I feel like you would know what was going on. Like, I don't think you would be, I don't think you can hide that level of like emotional attachment, which is the thing you're supposed to not have. I think a Jedi would be like, oh, like Mace Windu is going to be like, hey, my guy, no, you can't be doing this. But this is the thing.

This is one of the myriad great failings of this era of the Jedi Order. Yeah. Yoda, we're talking to you. Listen, guys, we need to stop meditating, start acting. Exactly. Pay a lick of fucking attention. Anybody paying an ounce of attention should be able to deduce what's going on. You know, when Dr. Strange is looking through all the timelines to see if there's one that

it works and blah, blah, blah. It's almost like they cut out the scene where Yoda saw the future, knew it would have to be the future, and was like, well, I got to let this happen, you know, and so that he can at least be like, so that he can be like, I saw what was going to happen and I had to let it happen because it's fixed, right? I mean, this is one of the things about the later seasons of Clone Wars, though. It's just disgrace after disgrace in terms of what they discover and then allowed to unfold. I mean...

How do they not know? They're given an army. They're given an army. What? What do you mean? Who? They're literally like, wait, what? Who set this up?

I don't know. I guess there are soldiers now. No questions asked. Like, no questions. No study. No, like, no like, you. you've got all these clones. Like just give them a quick scare.

I'd say actually more dismaying than no questions asked is that there's usually like one or two questions asked and then no subsequent questions, despite the fact that the answers to the first question are usually quite alarming. Cifodias, Lord Tyrannis, why does Anakin keep telling us that he's monitoring Padmei in the other room? Well, should we be concerned about any of this? Now, Obi-Wan, of course. does know. He does know. And this is one of the delights about watching Clone Wars, is actually seeing Obi-One and Anakin have a conversation about Obi-Wan's history with Satin,

what Anakin feels for Padme. They can't quite push through to finding a shared understanding about what the future could be. And that only enhances the tragedy when you see it in that form. But in the prequels, it's like, I just have a lot of notes. I just have a lot of notes. I agree because I just watched the prequels as well Maybe three months ago I watched Do you have the experience now after Mando Season 2 and knowing that Grogu was at the Jedi Temple

and rescued right before Order 66 where you can't help but look for him now every time we're in the Jedi Temple? I hope he's edited in one day Because I can imagine a world in which Faloni saw some tiny speck of green in a shot.

Yeah, and turned to someone and was like, do you think Yoda and Yaddle thought? I'm going to decide. I'm going to decide that's a baby Yoda. I'm going to decide that's a baby Yoda and that's, I'm going to continue forward with that character. Like, that's like, that's what I would believe Foloni would do something like that.

But that's what's, that's, what he's done such a good job of is taking the, the three prequels and taking and cherry picking the stuff from them that are so meaningful or that are integral or important and either using them or reframing them to better storytelling effect, you know? And that's why I'm so grateful that he is making all these kind of making all these shows and seems to be like a guiding force for everything they're doing in television because it all feels of a piece. It all feels tonally similar in that it feels like Star Wars, you know.

And when he carries, if he's going to give you, you know, for me, like top three character, Asso Catano. Same buddy. He's going to seed her in Clone Wars and grow her through that whole series, but then also have her pop up in Rebels, but then also have her show up in Mando. I mean, like, this is incredible. This is, to me, so good and so interesting. And I'm, like, deeply captivated by all of it.

And I want to know, this is the stuff that I'm like, I want more of this. I feel the same way. And that's why I'm so excited for the rest of this. Bad Batch because not only do we have this group of characters that we're still getting to know with Clone Force 99, with Omega now, learn more about, invest in them as people, their arcs, their journeys, their relationships that they're building with each other, the new adventures that they're going to have. But to bring this back to the beginning of our Bad Batch chat here, I have real confidence that as we set out to explore this largely unexplored part of the Star Wars timeline post-prequels,

and Ben Lindberg talked about this on the pot a couple weeks ago, how much opportunity there is in that window. I actually can't wait to have more moments like the Canaan moment where we run into familiar faces. Like we know, for example, from the trailer that Rex is going to be in this season. And I actually can't wait for that because Rex is someone who we have built up an incredible level of investment. And I want to know how we get from the astounding sequence, between him and Asoka in season seven of the Clone Wars,

where we learn how his chip was finally removed, et cetera, to where we find him in rebels. There's so much time to fill. I hope that we see, I mean, I feel like it's a certainty that we'll see Veter, probably at the end of the season. I hope that we see Obi-Wan. I would just, I would lose my mind out of sheer jubilation

if we saw Grogu at some point, which I think we could. I hope we see Obi-Wan, all of it. And it's so, so, it's like the absolute inverse of Palpatine and Rise of Skywalker. Why do we have to go back to X, Y, or Z over and over again? This to me feels like, you know, as I've mentioned before a couple times, like the intent is truly to enhance our understanding of these characters and these aspects of their stories and the universe that matter deeply, matter deeply. matter deeply to their journeys and matter deeply to us as Star Wars fans, as people who spend a large amount of our lives thinking about these things and consuming them.

It's not just a retread. It's fresh. It's additive. There's real value and experience there. You're right. It is. It's a very compelling time to tell stories inside of because we know it's bracketed. Like we know where we were and we know where they're going.

A lot of between. Yes. directly after Order 66 when we have now seen before the empire has like really risen into being what it is, this is the beginning of the Galactic Empire.

This is the very end of the Republic and we're watching as planets and people are truly like don't know what's going on and are unclear what's happening. And the universe is like grappling. Watching the creation of the stormtroopers.

Like this ad, this admiral rampart character from the last, from the last couple episodes. It's like, well, this guy seems like he's going to have a pretty seismic role in establishing the stormtroopers and establishing the military might, or if you're talking about sharpshooting, lack thereof, of the Galactic Empire. Where is this guy come the original films? I can't wait to find out. Like, what is his relationship ultimately to Tarkin?

What role is crosshair going to play? Yeah, my guess is Tarkin is going to take what this guy does, claim it for himself, be promoted as such. And the reason that, like, you know, we follow Tarkin. Tarkin is the death star. Tarkin is, you know, and again, like, if you are inside of the books, you understand that, like, Tarkin's death star was chosen as opposed to Thron's idea for a day. Thron was basically like, don't make one big gun. you know, like we can, there's a better way to do it. There's a better strategy here. One big gun isn't going to do it.

Anyway, but Tarkin is like, it's really we're watching the birth of Tarkin, this great, you know, like this great strategic villain who is a part of, who is inextricably woven into the fabric of Star Wars, but who is so unexplored in terms of like the how's wise and the where's did he kind of ascend through the ranks and that we might get to see some of that here. and then it might impact and affect some of the characters we already know and love? Great. I love that. Again, great storytelling. Who are you hoping to see? You know, I love your idea of a Grogu passing through.

Oh, gosh. Just a little play date with Omega and Groguu. They could talk about the parallels between Mando and the Bad Batch. That would be cool. Procious youngster with an unlikely guardian. I think you're right. I mean, the Rex thing is going to be very satisfying, just because, again, like, we spent so much time with Rex, both in Clone Wars and in Rebels. I'm trying to think if there's anybody loose in the world that I'm like, oh, it would be cool if. And we're going to get Fenwick.

Yes, we're going to get Fenwick. Yeah. Well before the Fenwick we know. Right. Yep. Young Fenwick. So that's great. Young Boba?

Yeah. I would take more Boba because, like, you know, Boba is, if you haven't watched Clone Wars, young boba like a 12, 13 year old boba, is a character throughout Clone Wars. Bit of an asshole. Oh, relentlessly trying to kill Mace Window. Quite a brat. Oh, yeah. But great, you know, like a really great character.

I love Clone Wars Boba and like his group of, he's with like Bosque and, you know, a bunch of other bounty hunters who are like, like, he's that, they're his crew or whatever. He's pursuing vengeance for Django. Holy shit. He's, and relentlessly so. Like, he brings down like a full, like, a warship, just trying to kill Mace Windu. It's like, the kid gets shit done. But so, yeah, I would love it if Boba came through. I'm trying to think, if Boba came through,

I think that would be smart because it lends the Bobafenic relationship. Say they come through together. That it lends the Book of Boba Fet, which I'm going to assume is the two of them together. It gives them, again, it just gives them a shared history that hasn't been evidenced in the Mandalorian so far, but might be very helpful in the building of the book of Bobafat. So Arjuna, one of our wonderful ringer verse producers,

this is one of his theories for what we're going to see is some of that shared history that we didn't realize existed, and perhaps even the characters don't realize exists. That might be a fun thing to see them discover. But they're always going to be Star Wars is a machine, right? So they're always going to be working to set up what's next. And Bookinbo Buffett is coming. It's not too far away.

Oh, no. We're drowning in content, you know, like in a good way, you know. There is like, you know, Falcon and Winter Soldier came hot on the heels of Wanda Vision. We're going straight into Black Widow and Loki. Can't fucking wait. We're going to have a lot. And I know I'm bouncing around. different properties, but like...

MCU is next on our list, man. Let's do it. There's a lot of stuff. And it's not... I'm very excited about a lot of it in a way that I'm like... In a way that I want to be cynical and be like, I don't like that so much of the content that I'm digesting and I'm excited about is from a single place, you know, which is why I'm glad we talk about Invincible or

the boys or, you know, there's great stuff being done all over. But that so much is coming out of one house and I'm... And the quality control is so good in many ways. I'm really, I'm excited. I'm really, that thing, the video that the Marvel put out, that was basically like, we're back, you know, a little bit of looking backwards and now a little bit of looking forward. Some Shang Chi, a little taste of the Eternals.

Yeah. I cried in that. Like, I was like, what the fuck? This is, I mean, this got me. These guys have gotten me, you know, in a way that I'm like, this is wild. and I think because of coronavirus and various other things, and also, like, as a model,

we are not going to go without these properties being on our TVs, you know, whether it's a Star Wars show, whether it's an MCU show. Like, we're going to keep having these stories to talk about, and that is, and like you said earlier, we're going to have a Game of Thrones show. We're going to have a Lord of the Rings show. Like, we're going to have stuff that is very interesting,

and I hope very cool, you know, like I'm, I'm excited for Lord of the Rings. Same. I was asked to audition. I'm not going to say for what part. I could not do the audition because even after I worked with a dialect coach, I could not do the British accent. They were asking me to do.

So I said, I can't do it. And I threw up my arms and I didn't even do the audition. Is this true? This is true. You're kidding. I'm not kidding. They were like, here is the audition. This is the specific.

accent they want for this character. And so I was like, oh, okay, great. And then I hired a dialect coach to work with me for hours on it. And she was like, yeah, she was like, you know, you should do it, but you're going to need more work. We're still really, you still aren't quite getting it. I'm not a good accent person. I don't have a facility with accents. So I was like, you know what? I'm not going to get this. I'm not going to like master this accent, you know, before I need to send this in. What am I doing? And I didn't do it. Oh. I was a I was a coward now. My God.

I backed out. I backed out. I'm overwhelmed right now. Crazy, right? Holy shit. I bet you would have crushed it. Can I hear it? No, of course you can't hear it.

I mean, this was also like a year, more than a year, it was a year and a half ago. I don't even remember it. Oh, my God. It was, it was terrible. It was actually hilarious and humbling to work for hours with someone who was like, you're just not getting. It's really interesting. It's like every time once a year, we have.

have to sing a song for Big Mouth, and I have to go to the composer's house whose name is Mark Rivers, who's a genius, who is the best. And every year I say, Mark, I need to remind you, I cannot sing. And he's like, oh, yes, you can. We're great. We're going to do this. And then, like, three hours later, he's like, okay, I remember now why you are so difficult. You are, you are, you literally can't sing. I am, I'm the worst singer in the world. Oh, it's awful. Horrible. It's hilariously bad. Wow, I'm really overwhelmed by that story. I don't know what to say.

There's stuff. There's stuff coming that I'm so excited about. What are you most excited about? Across all of, whether it's an upcoming Star Wars project, inside of the MCU, if it's Disney Plus Pacific or beyond one of the throne spinoffs, is it House the Dragon? Is it Lord of the Rings, the show that you could have been on? Is it something else?

Dune? There's so much. You're right. So much, and that's what's exciting, because everything that we're talking about so far, I'm excited about, you know. I'm excited to dig in on the rest of the bad batch. I couldn't be more excited for whatever Mando season three is. It better be the battle for Mandelor. Like, that's all I want.

All I want is Dark Sabre, more Boatatan. I want, like, I want that to be the story. I don't want Luke and Grogu, like, really. I don't want that. sidlined or do you just not want Luke and Grogu? I don't mind Grogu being sidelined if his whole thing is with Luke. And I know I'm saying something that is insane to say because I can't imagine the show without Grogu.

But I'm just looking like from a from a narrative storytelling point of view. Like this show now has fully, okay, for the listeners at home, Mal has now gone and got her Grogu. Grogu You are sidelined You are sidelined You are sidelined for season Three of Mandalorian

Sidelined Look at those eyes Look at that sweet expression He's like the most handsome boy Oh, this is very cute Mal is not cuddling Grogu This is like This is, I feel like this is your only fans

Oh my God, great idea Your only fans is just you doing Star Wars Lego kits and cuddling Grogo. You're about to be rich. I actually really like the idea of the Mandalorian, this thing that initially sounded so specific. And then surprised us in so many ways being, and a million other people have said this.

This is not a unique insight or observation. But I like the idea of it potentially being like, an anthology rapper in which various Mandalorian-centric or adjacent stories could be explored, including that one. And with Bow at the center, that would be amazing. I love that. I can't move forward without Krogu.

I can't. I understand. I get that. I get that. If he's not going to be in season three of the Mandalorian, I need him somewhere else. And I need it before much more time passes. I just don't think you can give us something

that pure. Though, of course, I can hear Chris's voice in my head as I'm saying this. I do understand rationally that what I'm saying is wrong.

And that it's actually the opposite. And the voice is like, you have to watch the bureau. You've got to watch the bureau. And Mayor, did you see the most, did you see Sunday's episode of Mayor? Let me tell you something.

I actually did and I was texting with Chris about it at like midnight his time because he's on the East Coast. And what an episode it was. Holy shit. I didn't watch it. I haven't watched it.

No spoilers. Let me just say. As a daughter of Baltimore, you know, sister accent of the Delco accent. Oh, I've heard you guys go go accent to accent. I've heard it. What a thrill it's been to see just this pure Mid-Atlantic experience on our screens. Really something.

Grogo. I love them so much. You know, here's what I am excited about. Here's what I will say. It's not necessarily that I'm excited. excited for certain shows or properties, although I am. You know what I mean? Like, I'm excited to see what the hell the OB-1 show is going to be just by the fact

that they cast Hayden Christensen. I know. That alone is a very specific thing to have done. So I'm genuinely curious. So very, I'm intrigued by it. In Star Wars, here are the two things that I'm most interested in, because I know they're going to come. and I'm one of them I think we understand where and how it's going to arrive and the other I don't know how they are going to arrive.

One is Grand Admiral Thrawn, who I believe we will see in the Asoka show, right? In the Asoka show. The Asoka show has got to be her pursuing Thron. So will that be where we get Ezra? And does all of that happen inside of Asoka then or does it launch a Rebels reboot? That's the question. Does Asoka's search for Thron? My heart is racing right now? Is she going to connect back up with Sabine, who finally has a lead? Is it going to, is, is, is, is, when we saw Asoka in Mandalorian season two, was she still on her and Sabine's mission to find Ezra, but they are just chasing separate leads?

One of the things that Faloni said in the wake of Asoka's appearance in Mando season two, and I'm paraphrasing here, but if memory of. serves. It was in essence, don't presume that you know exactly when the Rebels epilogue with Assoca and Sabine was set. Because my assumption when Asoka came into Mando's season two was that that's after.

But maybe it isn't. Oh, interesting. Maybe it isn't. And if you think of something even like Philoni's Gandalf, established Gandalf, Assoca the gray, Assoca the White, she was wearing the gray in Mando

and she is, of course, wearing the white robe, Asoka the White, in the Rebels epilogue, who knows? I can't wait to find out how all that stuff aligns. Okay, so that's interesting. So, you know, I really, I really want Thron because Throne has come on so hard to be one of my absolute favorite characters in Rebels, in the books that I've listened to. Dream casting? Dream casting for live action Throne?

You know what it is? And someone made this point, and it might have been you guys on binge mode, I can't remember. Mads-Mickleson's brother voices. I say just cast him, yeah. Just cast him. Cast Lars Mickelson. Like, he already embodies the character.

Because I would say cast Mads-Mickleson if he wasn't already Gaylon Erso. But like, so for me, like, a Mads-Mickleson type, like that fits, so the fact that his brother is already inside of it, great. And is a great actor. I believe was on Borgon and a bunch of other stuff. Like, great, give me that. Give me Lars Mikulsen. Done.

Put him in. I also want, I want Ezra. I want there to be, if not Ezra, a path to Ezra and an understanding that that's where we're going. And then I also want Dr. Afra. I demand that one of these shows. Yes. I want one of these shows, I believe, I feel like one of these shows we're going to get. a Dr. Afra like a beat with someone who will be then spun off the way we saw Asoka

in Mando season three. I wouldn't be surprised if a character arrives in Obi-1 or in one of these other shows, maybe Mando 3 or somewhere that it gives us an opportunity to establish Dr. Afra, who is a character that so far only exists inside of the Star Wars comics run. It's a character, I believe, created by Kieran Gillen. And she is like a rogue space archaeologist who just only cares about collecting, like, artifacts. And she works for Darth Vader. She works, she helps the rebels.

She's like, she kind of wants none of either of the good or the bad side. And only is, she's very selfish. She's a major part of the Darth Vader comic book that is, is available on the Marvel app and you can buy the books. I think they're free on Kindle, the first two trades of Darth Vader, I believe, are free on Kindle. And they established the Dr. Affir character and then she spun off into her own book that are incredible. Such good stories. So I want that, I'm excited to find and see those, what they do and how they integrate those characters that I love from the other stories into main storyline and stuff.

That's what I'm curious about. What's your Loki and Black Widow hype level right now? You know, I'm super excited about Loki. I can't remember which pod you were talking about it, but I 100% think we're going to get Kid Loki and we're going to get Kid Loki and Young Avengers. I think we're going to get Lady Loki. I think we're going to get all the Loki's,

and I'm here for it. I think it's going to be a blast. And I think it's going to also be a huge part of helping us understand whatever this multiverse kind of, universe-shattering event that is about to happen to the MCU that is going to allow us stuff, that is going to give us mutants, that is going to give us Fantastic Four, that is going to give us I think just access to stuff. I think, you know,

I'm curious how it unfolds and I'm genuinely interested in how they do it. You know, there's Marvel Comics storylines, the Jonathan Hickman storyline, Avengers storyline, that the Illuminati is also a part of, I think lends itself to rescuing people from doomed alternate earths. You know, like there is something there that could be interesting.

If there's a world that's about to become no more and there are mutants on it, and those mutants, I mean, there's ways to do this that are in comics. So I'm curious. Black Widow, I'm hyped for. Like, I've been hyped, but I've been hyped for Black Widow for so long that I'm just like, let me watch it already.

You know, let me watch this already because I want this, this like a, like a spy craft, you know, straight action adventure spy story. Like, yes, that's like Winter Soldier is one of my favorite movies. Like, I love a spy craft show. And so, and this era of Natasha is interesting. So, like, I want it. Great. Give me.

I want more red room. I want, I want it. Like, give it all, I want it already. I'm mad. I'm mad. I haven't seen it. And I blame you, Mal. I cannot wait to watch it from the comfort of my home on Disney Plus in pajamas with Grogo.

Yeah. In one elbow, I'm not going to the theaters. I will not be. I'm not going to be a difficult thing for me because I can't wait for that movie. And that'll be when I have to return to a theater. That'll be when I have to do it. So early September. I can do that.

I can do that. I'm not going to be able to do Black Widow. And I don't think I'm going to be able to do like fast in few. which is another of my, like, we cover those on my podcast and we, I like delight in watching them in big crowds and I don't think I can do it. Can I tell you a secret? Just you and anyone else who happens to be listening? Everybody else.

Everybody else. Turn your volume down for the next couple seconds. Very few people know this. I believe that my husband, Jason, and Isaac are among the only people who know this. Oh, my God. I'm so excited right now. I've never seen the fast and the furious movies. I don't know how this happened.

I just somehow was just this massive cultural blind spot for me. And let me tell you something. Holy shit. But let me tell you something. Watch the first one last weekend. I'm going to watch them all. Amazing. I'm going to be ready.

Do it. But I'm not watching them in a crowd of Peter. I'm watching them at all. Here's what I'm going to say. In an empty room. They are ludicrous. They are ludicrous. Including the movies that star ludicrous Chris Bridges.

who is a major character in the Fast and Furious franchise. Now, what I will say is, I would, Fast and Furious really starts cooking from five on. The first four are real Rocky. There was a lot more discussion in the first one about tuna sandwiches than I was expecting. Oh, yeah. What you're about to see is so funny. The juxtaposition between how low stakes and ordinary one is,

when you watch eight, you're going to be, or when you watch Hobbs and Shaw, in which you're watching essentially like superhero characters. So this is why I was like, I can't, I just, I don't know what has taken me so long, but I have to partake. I have to consume this so that I can share in this experience because so many people talk about them that way.

Like they are superhero stories. And you know what I love? I love a superhero story. You're going to have a blast. You're going to have to suffer through some, truly bad movies. Like three and four are really very bad. Tokyo drift, very fun, but three and four are just bad. Five starts an uptick that is unquestionably a blast. And they become incredibly inventive in terms of their, I would say Fast and Furious and Mission Impossible, start succeeding

in the latter half of their runs, mostly because they start doing incredible. practical stunts that are very exciting to watch and be a part of. Mostly because a lot of times they're real. And you can feel that. I definitely recall seeing something in a trailer. Does someone drive a car from one building into another building at some point? Yes. Yes.

I can't wait to learn everything about that. Drives, like shoots out of one, skies. It lands into a lower floor on a different skyscrapers. It's next level. It's totally, I'm glad you're getting into it. It's very well worth a watch. But get prepared because they are nonsense. They, you were like every minute of, like every three minutes of the Fast and Furious movies,

characters do something that would kill themselves and hundreds of people in their vicinity and nothing happens. Everybody's totally fine all the time. And everything is caught. Everything is cars, which makes total sense in the early movies because they're really street level, like, they're car racing, they're doing this and that. But they still need it to be cars in the later movies. So like, so like they are like dropping cars out of airplanes. They go to like Siberia and are driving cars across like a frozen like lake, which makes no sense. Like why would you have like a like, like, why would you have like a Lamborghini driving like on a lake in a frozen lake in Siberia. It makes no sense, but it's the best. No, I'm not a car guy.

One of the questions that Adam asked me after we finished watching the first movie last weekend was which of the cars was your favorite. And I did not have an answer to the question. I believe I said the coral one, though I'm not sure if it was actually really coral. That's probably not the color that it was, but I did like that one. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a car person and I couldn't tell you any of the cars, like what they, like they're make and model or any of that kind of stuff.

Yeah, it's all nonsense to me. I like cars, actually. I'm excited. I'm excited to continue my fast journey. I'll keep you posted on my progress. I can't wait to, yeah, please keep me updated. All right, everyone. Head back tomorrow, right here on Wednesday for part two of our conversation with Jason

Manzoukis. We're going to get Jason's recommendations for what he's been watching, reading, enjoying. And then, of course, head back into the Ring ofverse on Friday for more of the midnight boys. Pugh phew. Till then, fetch them all our twins because we have some cloning to do.